Barack Obama is Not a Muslim

But not only has that fact not gotten through to many Americans, the percentage of adults who believe he is a Muslim has now risen sharply after holding steady for two years, according to a new Pew poll out today. For my money, though, the real headline–and the news that should be causing heartburn over at the White House right now–is that the percentage of Americans who can correctly identify Obama’s religious faith as Christian has dropped by 14 points in the past year and a half. A plurality of Americans (43%) have no idea what religion he practices.

I’m going to repeat that because this is very unusual: a year and half after Obama moved into the White House, Americans are far less certain about who he is than they were during the campaign. That isn’t a good trend line for any political figure, but especially not the president. It may be appealing for an offbeat Hollywood actor or a reclusive writer to be seen as an enigma. But politics is a personal arena–voters like to feel that they can relate to a president or at the very least understand who he is. More dangerous for Obama is the fact that if a politician doesn’t define himself, his enemies are more than happy to do it for him. The Pew poll is evidence that the endless conservative media cycle of misinformation about Obama is working: of those respondents who identified Obama’s faith as Islam, 60% said they learned the “fact” from the media. (Note that the poll was conducted before Obama waded into the so-called Ground Zero mosque controversy.)

Barely one-third (34%) of Americans can correctly identify Obama as a Christian, compared to more than half (51%) who could do so during the 2008 campaign. But that huge drop isn’t driven primarily by Fox News true believers. (Let me pause for a moment here to say that it is of course not a smear to call someone a Muslim. It is, however, obnoxious to say someone is a member of a religious faith when he’s not–and to insist that he is not a member of the tradition he does claim. It would also be foolish and naive to pretend that conservatives who call Obama a Muslim are doing it in a neutral way and that their intention is not to raise questions about his “otherness.”)

Consider this: Less than half of Democrats (41%) know Obama is a Christian, down from 55% in March 2009. Barely four-in-ten African-Americans say he’s a Christian, down from 56% last year. The percentage of moderate and liberal Republicans who say Obama is a Christian has dropped by 27 points, but it’s not because they’re all now convinced he’s a Muslim. Instead, the percentage who just don’t know his religion has risen 19 points. “What the numbers say,” says Alan Cooperman of the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, “is that there’s a lot of uncertainty and confusion about the president’s religion.”

Where is this confusion coming from? I asked Cooperman, who suggested this explanation: “Part of what’s going on here may be that there’s been a relative–especially compared to the previous president–absence of information from the president himself and from the White House about his personal religion and his practice of his personal faith. In the relative vacuum of information, suggestions from the president’s critics have been able to gain more currency and uncertainty is rising.” I think that’s about right. Given how frequently and personally Obama spoke about his Christian faith during the Democratic primaries and the 2008 general election, his relative silence since moving into the White House has been puzzling. (White House aides point out that he has spoken about his faith on six different occasions, but several of those remarks–including his prayer breakfast comments–have been stilted and pro forma, especially compared with his impressive 2006 address on religion and politics.)

It also hasn’t helped that the First Family does not attend a church in Washington, DC and that the White House rushed to shoot down a story I reported last summer that the Obamas had decided to follow George W. Bush’s lead and make the Camp David chapel their primary place of worship. (Even though Obama subsequently confirmed the story in several different venues.)

The obvious question from all of this is: Does it really matter that people don’t know what religion the president practices? After all, roughly half of Americans say that Obama relies on his religious beliefs (even if they don’t know what those are) the right amount, just as half said the same thing about Bush. Those who don’t know what Obama’s faith is appear to be divided evenly on the question of whether they approve of his job performance. And it seems pretty clear that disliking Obama makes you more likely to believe he’s a Muslim, not the other way around.

Yet it does matter, because a president–especially a Democratic president–cannot afford to let his enemies define his character and his beliefs. John Kerry made this point in a fascinating post-campaign speech at Pepperdine University in 2006 that he intended partly as a caution to his Democratic colleagues:

There will always be those bent on corrupting our political discourse, particularly where religion is involved. But I learned how important it is to make certain people have a deeper understanding of the values that shape me and the faith that sustains me. Despite this New Englanders’ past reticence of talking publicly about my faith, I learned that if I didn’t fill in the picture myself, others would draw the caricature for me. I will never let that happen again — and neither should you, because no matter your party, your ideology, or your faith, we are all done a disservice when the debate is reduced to ugly and untrue caricatures.

Interestingly, Obama himself reflected on the danger of ceding the definition of one’s faith in the 2006 speech I cited earlier, berating himself for what he characterized as an inadequate response during the 2004 campaign to Alan Keyes’ charge that “Jesus Christ would not vote for Barack Obama.” Even so, the White House and the Democratic Party in general have ceded the field of religion to Republicans over the past two years, dismantling nearly all of the party’s religious outreach and relying solely on the White House faith-based office, which is legally prohibited from engaging in political outreach. When asked about these developments, Democratic officials insist that they plan on ramping up religious outreach for the 2012 campaign, but after three years of inaction, it’s hard to see how that will look like anything other than a cynical political maneuver.

I suppose you could call the White House’s complete lack of concern about Obama’s religious image admirable. It wouldn’t be hard to imagine a crafty political adviser marching into the Oval Office and insisting: “Mr. President, I’m sorry, but we have to have you walking into a church every Sunday morning, preferably with a big Bible under your arm.” And in a perfect world, nobody would give a hoot whether the president went to church or said grace before meals or ever uttered one word publicly about his religious beliefs. But these Pew results suggest that nearly two years after Americans elected Obama, they know less about him than they did when he was a presidential candidate still making his way onto their radar. Forget the question of what that means for 2012–it’s already a problem for a leader who wants to connect with the country.

One last note on another finding I found fascinating: Of those Americans who think Obama is a Muslim, nearly one-quarter (24%) told Pew pollsters they think he talks about his faith too much. Which is impossible, of course, because Obama is not a Muslim, so he’s spent exactly zero minutes talking about being one. What the result illustrates instead is how thoroughly those who oppose Obama are willing to read everything he says and does through a filter of distrust. Sixty percent of those who think Obama is a Muslim say they got that idea from the media. But interestingly, one-in-ten say they got it from Obama’s own behavior or words. They hear the Cairo speech or see the outreach to Muslim countries and assume, well of course, it’s because he’s Muslim. That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t engage in the outreach–far from it. But it does make it even more important for the White House to offset those perceptions with a little more openness about the president’s real Christian faith.

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  • redraven937

    Roughly 60% of Americans also believe we have been contacted by aliens. I would imagine they are the same kind of people.

  • stuartzechman

    Amy Sullivan:
    .
    So it has nothing to do with the establishment press corps’ abdication of a proactive role in countering disinformation campaigns?
    .
    It’s all because the Obamas themselves don’t offer up enough photo-friendly piety to the media?
    .
    …And it’s back to your favorite theme –in this case a total non-sequitur– that Democrats aren’t “reaching out” enough to evangelical Christians to somehow convince everyone else that Obama’s not a Muslim? That old saw again?
    .
    The only thing more ludicrous than Kerry claiming he should have countered Rove’s gay marriage ballot initiative strategy with more duck-hunting costume protestations of faith is you bringing up Kerry’s religion, isn’t it? Was it really Kerry’s job to convince Americans that he’d actually fought in a war, and received medals for bravery?
    .
    Isn’t the big story of the Kerry campaign how obvious liars and cranks were able to prevail in a scandal-mongering, He Said/She Said press corps environment? Isn’t that why we all know what “Swift-boating” means? Wasn’t the real problem that he couldn’t convince your cohort to do your damn jobs?
    .
    Can you seriously be offering this as current professional political analysis, Amy Sullivan?
    .
    Other than your old “he should talk up his religion” song, do you have any other ideas at all? Is this it?

  • kbanginmotown

    …the Eid ul Fitr Egg Roll and the lighting of the Ramadan Tree did not help the President, either…
    .
    Amy: Good post. On a related note, it would be interesting to see how these “Obama is a Muslim” numbers track with the current uptick in Islamophobia…

  • Ike Jakson

    Obama is not a Muslim. Please hear me out if you disagree at first glance.

    His book Dreams … contradicts the notion. His Father was what is sometimes referred to as an African Black Muslim; that being poles apart from Middle East Islam or Muslim Practice. His Indonesian school attendance is of no consequence as far as this goes.

    In fact Obama has no Faith; he doesn’t belong to or owe any allegiance to any Faith. He will be anything that you want him to be for the sake of politics or whatever he deems you want him to be at that point in time.

    If anything Obama is an insult to Muslim and Islam Faith. The Turks despise the man.

    Obama is plain and simple for Obama. Nothing else counts.

  • mycophile

    wow
    .
    I’d venture to say there are three types of people whose care what religion Barack Obama is would make a hill of beans.
    .
    One would be those who think that only a person of religious faith could possibly make a good President. Those people, of course, are completely incorrect. It is entirely possible for even an Aethistic person to have as high (or even higher) virtues such as honesty, integrity, ethics, morals, and convictions of care for all the values that are dear to the founding of the USA as any person of faith could have. Being a person of faith does not the difference make. Otherwise, no one would have thought reverend Wright even questionable.
    .
    Another group would be those who think that only a Christian could be a good President, because the USA was founded as Christian nation, and only a person of Christian faith would ensure that it remain a Christian country. There has been a lot of debate about the place of Christianity in the founding of our nation, and I wasn’t there, so I can’t be sure. But neither was anyone else, so this becomes a matter of debate of dueling old pieces of parchment and interpretation of them. Notably, though, there seems to be no requirement in the US Constitution that the President be a Christian, so I say that throws into serious doubt that the Framers held this view.
    .
    The third group would be those that feel that the Muslim faith is anti-thetical to all that the USA stands for, and that there is no such thing as a Muslim who does not believe the portions of, or interpretations of, the Koran that instruct its faithful to conquer and destroy any and all non-Muslims. The Americans who believe this, then, are opposed to having a President who is Muslim. Thus, believing that Obama is Muslim would automatically be unequivocable reason to oppose him being President.
    .
    I refer again to the absence in the US Constitution of any prohibiton against any Koran followers being eligible for the Presidency. I would expect to hear teh counter argument, though, that our Founding Fathers simply forgot to think of that, because there were no blatant reminders of the danger in their minds at the time, and so they simply overlooked this danger. That anyone could actually imagine that such learned men were not aware of the Holy Crusades and the Cordoba period in Spain, among other historical information — or that, in being so contemplative of devising a governmental structure to avoid all the ills of past versions, they simply failed to consider Islamic forms, is puzzling to me.
    .
    However, it does seem clear that the ONLY way that any person of that third type would ever even possibly (if ever) change their mind about that would be through trial by fire — having a President who claims they are Muslim for long enough to observe that the USA did not crumble as a result, and perhaps even strengthen.
    .
    Since Obama is Christian, no matter what his sympathies might be for the Muslim faith, that means there will be no changing of minds in that third type of people anytime soon.

  • mycophile

    actually, Ike Jackson @4 reminded me (I was typing while he was posting) that that It would have been more proper for me to write Sinced Obama is likely to continue to claimin he is Christian, . . .

  • apr2563

    How often did Reagan attend church? Not often. Nancy was into astrology. I think they were Wickins.
    .Now, would someone who proported this about the Reagans during his administration be a guest or be interviewed by the traditional press? No, they would be dismissed as crackpots.
    .
    Today, we have crackpots everyday making absurd statements and brought in for serious interviews. My lord, CNN interviewed the worst of the worst yesterday, Pam Geller. The MSM repeats LImbaugh’s smears with a smile. We have a whole “news” network promoting smears while the other news people defend them and continue to take them seriously.
    .
    Amy, somehow you think this is Obama’s fault for not flaunting his religion. How about you making the point that it is ridiculous to question his faith and the press should be more alert to the damage hate radio and other outlets are doing to our country.
    Bush flaunted his faith and what did it get us?
    Be a real Christian Amy and do your job. Shame on your for your intolerance.

  • Cliff

    How do you counter this? This is roughly analogous to 14% of the population forgetting suddenly that the Earth is round.
    .
    If the majority of Americans woke up tomorrow convinced that the sky is green, what do you do about that?
    The sky is plainly not green; Obama is plainly not a Muslim.
    .
    And I think SZ makes an important point here. Obama is a busy man – I don’t agree with a lot of what he’s done, but he’s undeniably busy.
    .
    Why should it be his job to continually remind the American public about basic facts?
    .
    We already have an institution that has the ostensible role of keeping the public educated about these matters – the press.
    .
    What conclusion can be drawn, other than that of the press being corrupted away from its intended purpose?

  • Cliff

    My lord, CNN interviewed the worst of the worst yesterday, Pam Geller.
    .
    Hell with that, they employ Erick Erickson.

  • lepidusxvi

    While I agree with your broader point, isn’t the very act of her posting this doing the job you’re demanding? Admittedly, online blogs are not exactly the most penetrating source, but still. Regardless of what you think of her thesis, her post here states the core truth of what faith Obama is.
    .
    That said, the broader point really needs to be examined. We all see blatant misrepresentations and lies from politicans in the media every day. Yet, somehow “fair and balanced” (and I don’t mean that in the FOX slogan way, but in the actual way) has morphed into “present both halves of the argument without critical filter.”
    .
    That over the course of his presidency, a significant chunk of Americans have UNLEARNED his religion shows the critical thinking powers of the average American. The entire point of a press corp is to not only report facts, but also to fact check and filter information against the truth. Just because the lie is in a quotation mark doesn’t excuse it entering the discourse without rebuttal.
    .
    If mainstream news media actually either stopped quoting politicans who were blatantly lying, or better yet, outright called them liars without trying to pretend that their lie is somehow a valid point of view, the world would be a better place.
    .
    I am not talking points of view here. That gets dicey, obviously. I mean utter falsehoods. Things that are blatantly made up, like Obama being born overseas, Obama being Muslim, etc. Or the latest, the “Ground Zero Mosque,” where they generally call it that in the headline (traffic!) and then point out it’s not actually near ground zero or even a Mosque in the throw-away line at the end of the piece, if at all.

  • Art Pepper

    If the President forgets to keep mentioning that he’s Christian, I might accidentally think he’s a Muslim? Thank goodness George W Bush didn’t have that problem. In fact, he wouldn’t shut up about it.

  • http://pacificgatepost.blogspot.com/ pacificgatepost

    “respondents who identified Obama’s faith as Islam, 60% said they learned the “fact” from the media.”

    @ Amy,

    Come on, . . . you’re kidding, right? You think 300,000,000 people should personally check into where he attends church, if he does?

    Strange, but weak, twisting of a statistic for whatever your purpose is. Does this say the public is uninformed or uneducated?

    Aren’t you really observing an electorate which discovered too late that of the hopes and dreams it had “invested” in a Presidential candidate, None materialized, and now reality hits home, and he isn’t what the electorate thought him to be?

  • apr2563

    Cliff, your right about Erickson.

  • afraidofheights

    What on earth was President Obama thinking? Did his advisors actually tell him to go “Pro Ground Zero mosque” with 90 days until the midterms when Democrats are about to get sliced up like a Hibachi Steak at Benihana?

    .

    Did someone on his team point to Iran and said, “Don’t worry Mr. President, we can win with 32% of the vote, Ahmadinejad did it, so let’s go pro Ground Zero mosque today?”

    .

    Read this article which satirizes the whole mess.

    .

    VERY FUNNY stuff.

    .

    http://www.dailygoat.com/?p=2653

  • apr2563

    Amy, people I will never take seriously and will question their loyalty and purity, if I don’t have them declaring their worthiness because of their religious practice:
    You
    All newspeople
    Teachers
    Doctors
    Polliticians
    Talk radio hosts
    All Fox fake news contributers
    Nurses
    In fact, everyone must profess and practice their faith publicly. Maybe Obama and all citizens should wear a badge indicating their religious choice. Maybe all citizens should register when they attend a church.

  • Ike Jakson

    What is good for the goose should be good for the gander; that’s what the man at Time said:

    God as Their Running Mate
    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1659734,00.html

    Hehehehe!

  • Ike Jakson

    [apr2563]:

    I would also say that you forgot to mention lawyers, economists and investment bankers.

  • charlieromeobravo

    “Did his advisors actually tell him to go “Pro Ground Zero mosque…”

    Doubtful, and that’s not what he did but no one seems to be able to read his statement for what it is. The word Muslim is completely interchangable with the word Christian, Jewish, or Scientologist for that matter. All that people seem to read is Muslim, Muslim, Muslim…

  • centfan

    If a poll of something is the measure then maybe the only one that matters politically is:
    -
    “If the election were held today would you be more likely to vote for a white Christian male Republican or Independent without knowing their name or Barack Obama?”
    -
    If 50% say “yes” then you’ve got a story to run with. If you drop “Christian” from the opposition description and 55% say “yes”… well then you’ve really got meat to chew on… or a big headache.

  • charlieromeobravo

    Yeah, how about that? Thanks to Fox News, fringe conservative wing nuts, and the McCain/Palin campaign playing up the “ooh, he’s foreign and scary because he set foot outside the US when he was growing up” angle it seems he’s cursed with having to constantly remind people he’s a Christian or people forget? Why would anyone who knew he was a Christian back in 2008 suddenly think he’s a Muslim now? I swear this country deserves the tea party morons that McCain/Palin gave some credence to when they were in the last desperate days of their campaign. It’s like some political version of Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    “Does it really matter that people don’t know what religion the president practices?”

    In a democratic country, where faith is kept out of politics, it doesn’t matter. If he did lay claim to one faith or another many people would worry about his ability to make rational decisions. The last president demonstrated very clearly how faith can bankrupt a nation morally and financially.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    I’m with Stewart. Anytime a professional member of the news media laments a lack of knowlege among the population, I can only hope they realize that they represent a major part of the problem.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    It’s also instructive to remember 2003. The media’s disinterest in truth is a chronic fatal illness.

  • Alex Vallas

    So what’s new? In general, Americans are stupidly stupid when it comes to current events related to our governent, foreign policy, etc.. They are far more knowledgeable with respect to the entertainment industry and sports. They know who is sleeping with whom and know every detail of the sexual exploits and sexual orientation of the sports and entertainment celebrities. Very sad.

  • centfan

    You mean you’re not jazzed about “Real New Jersey Housewives Got Talent Catching Crabs”? We lead the world in that stuff. Where’s the patriotic pride in that ol’ American innovation (often swiped from European cult TV and turned viral)?

  • ricardo4max

    If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, why is the media telling us it’s a peacock?
    If der Fuehrer Herr Obama isn’t a muslim, why is he playing on the muslim team?
    Far far too much evidence of muslim sympathizing and too much effort has gone into hiding and obscuring his past.
    This dictator wanna be is just plain evil and anti-American and the state run propaganda machine (aka the media) can’t be honest and assess the evidence and behaviour.

  • ricardo4max

    Sadly, with the help of ACORN( Yes thay are lying low these days), the New Black Panthers and other Democrat voter fraud machines, including stacking the courts with activist judges, 32% will probably get him re-elected.

  • olharl

    The “Muslim Obama” meme is nutty, and can be demonstrated to be false by extremely simple documentation, so what’s going on here?

    Throwing out something completely insane, and then saying “your’re with us or you are against us” regarding this belief is cultic, tribal primate politics at is most base, stupid and utterly effective.

    The fact that it’s insane is actually adaptive for its purpose.

    The “big lie that is the belief of Our People” — maybe political science types have a term for this nasty strategy for building a new polity. (“Wedge Issue” is close, but not inflammatory enough)…

    Somebody needs to call these evil people before we end up gunning each other down in the streets over this kind of silliness.

  • newfreedomblog

    Every single paragraph of mr zechmans’s comment ends with a question mark. Yes, questions are usually non-threatening, unless you phrase the question in a manner which is also a statement. A clever trick which mr zechman uses all the time. But, let us break them down for him and give him some questions in order for him to provide us with the answers, or to make his questions more relevant to the blog posting by A. Sullivan and expose the real truth behind his statements hidden within the questions.
    .
    So it has nothing to do with the establishment press corps’ abdication of a proactive role in countering disinformation campaigns?
    .
    Where is the disinformation? Explain in detail what you mean by disinformation with examples of it so that we can fully understand who it is in your mind that is spreading disinformation. What exactly are specific examples of ”disinformation” you have found in your searches? Who exactly is spreading this disinformation about Obama, and is there a sufficient number of these people you have found to make your allegation credible (providing sources or links to this information you have found would be helpful)?
    .
    Democrats aren’t “reaching out” enough to evangelical Christians to somehow convince everyone else that Obama’s not a Muslim? That old saw again?
    .
    Democrats have historically despised and rejected evangelical Christians. This is a fact. So why would anyone need to explain any further about that relationship? Are you now attacking evangelicals Christians as the perpetrators of the Vulcan mind meld to cause well over 70% of the American population to question this President’s religious faith? Or is this just another attempt by a liberal to place a finger upon a group of people, who also happen to support more conservative values and ideals, to make them look like the boogey-man to those uninformed liberals who vote like sheep with the rest of the Democrat Party?
    .
    The only thing more ludicrous than Kerry claiming he should have countered Rove’s gay marriage ballot initiative strategy with more duck-hunting costume protestations of faith is you bringing up Kerry’s religion, isn’t it? Was it really Kerry’s job to convince Americans that he’d actually fought in a war, and received medals for bravery?
    .
    Isn’t the big story of the Kerry campaign how obvious liars and cranks were able to prevail in a scandal-mongering, He Said/She Said press corps environment? Isn’t that why we all know what “Swift-boating” means? Wasn’t the real problem that he couldn’t convince your cohort to do your damn jobs?

    .
    Other than the swift boating allegation, which in my mind was a fair tactic to have been used to expose Mr Kerry’s out and out lies about his military career, what are you really asking? Are you saying that Obama, like Kerry, is being attacked by people who are attempting to discredit him? Are you asking Ms Sullivan to write a story about the real religious beliefs of this President in order to better define him to the American public? Or, are all of these questions simply to point out in your mind, the press is not writing garbage like they do on Daily Kos or Huffington Post, to distort the truth in a manner when written in their style so that the average person simply says, ”gee, John Kerry is not some slob who lied about his military career”. Or, ”gee, Obama sat in the pew of Trinity Christian Church listening to Jeremiah Wright’s sermons about social justice, and Black Liberation Theology. So he must be a Christian afterall”

  • kevin

    Afraidofheights:
    .
    If you’re going to keep posting the exact same comment every couple of days, you might want to adjust the “days ’til the election” countdown.
    .
    http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/08/16/reid-comes-out-against-cordoba-house/#comment-190790
    .
    Of course, you’re likely another one of Rusty’s personalities here — he loves to repeat posts too — so I’m sure this is pointless to point out.

  • ricardo4max

    I guess you anti-Americans still don’t get it. Muslims have a mandate in their scripture.to convert the world to Islam. It also tells them to subjugate and/ kill infidels. It gives them permission to lie in the interest of Islam. Top this off with the open declaration of war and attacks against America and well …. what do you have?
    So even if Obama was a mosque attending daily prayer type of muslim (which apparently he is not) he would lie about it. But when a President drastically cuts the space agency program and orders its head to improve relations with the muslim world… wtf can one deduce from that?

  • kevin

    What exactly are specific examples of ”disinformation” you have found in your searches?
    .
    Here’s one — Pam Geller, a prominent right-wing blogger.
    .
    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/06/-obama-tells-egyptian-foreign-minister-i-am-a-muslim-stealth-coup-on-the-white-house.html
    .
    If Geller’s name sounds familiar, it’s because she’s also been the prime force behind the “Ground Zero mosque” lies too.
    .
    http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/node/38375

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    ricardo4max will surely deny it but my understanding is he is a child molester. If he does deny it, we will know he is lying.

  • kevin

    This dictator wanna be is just plain evil and anti-American and the state run propaganda machine (aka the media) can’t be honest and assess the evidence and behaviour.
    .
    If you’re going to keep posting here and pretending to be an American, my British friend, you might want to watch how you spell “behaviour” and the like.
    .
    But, I’m sorry, Mr. Tory — you were lecturing us on what is and is not “anti-American”?

  • kevin

    The “Muslim Obama” meme is nutty, and can be demonstrated to be false by extremely simple documentation, so what’s going on here?
    .
    For the idiots who believe it, this can never be demonstrated to be false.
    .
    Obama has published his birth certificate, whose authenticity has been verified by the Hawaii secretary of state and backed up by Hawaii’s Republican governor, and even unearthed birth announcements published in both Honolulu papers, and still that’s not enough simple documentation to dispel the birther tards.
    .
    You’re making the mistake of assuming they’re logical and rational. They’re not. At all.

  • kevin

    I guess you anti-Americans still don’t get it.
    .
    One more time, British twit — if you’re from the country that we fought for independence against, you don’t get to call anyone here “anti-American.”

  • ogliberal

    Yes the standard wingnut defense mechanism – even if you give me facts and evidence to disprove my theories, either you or the person is question is lying.

    With Muslim stuff, they whip out Al-Taqqiya – I think Rusty’s done it a few times here. They think Taqqiya gives them some sort of historical, factual backing to support their argument that Obama is a Muslim – the whole, “because he says he isn’t then he must be!” BS. The problem is that Al-Taqqiya isn’t what they think it is (or what Glenn Beck or Pam Geller or whoever told them it is). Al-Taqqiya doesn’t give Muslims the permission to lie about their faith in the interest of Islam. It gives them permission to lie about their faith in the face of extreme threats or persecution, for example, during the Mongol conquest of the Middle East and Persia, or Shi’ites living in a majority Sunni land/nation. It would be like a Jewish family in Poland during WWII trying to hide the fact that they were Jewish in order to escape being sent to a concentration camp or early Christians meeting in the catacombs in Rome to avoid being sent to the lions. It’s not there to be used so that one can be some kind of sleeper Muslim secret agent living in the West. Of all of the Muslim terrorists we’ve seen carry out attacks in the West in recent years, how many of them hid the fact that they were Muslims?
    ….
    But why am I even responsing to and trying to reason with this guy…it’s not like he cares about facts.

  • http://tomorrowfactory.wordpress.com xero

    “Congress shall make no law …”
    “..no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States”

    I don’t care what/who any of them worship. It SHOULD be a private matter between a person and their god(s).

    The key is to get people/journalists to stop asking/caring.

  • sharksbreath

    ricardo4max: You should stop spending all your time reading the Koran and actually read the bible.

    “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you … Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.”

  • ogliberal

    So St. Ron the Gipper of California doesn’t even have to attend church, he just has to say “god” here and there and talk about “evil empires” and he gets a free pass. Heck, he can even appoint a pro-choice woman to the Supreme Court and still be worshipped by evangelicals. But if you’re a black dude with a funny name you have to make it a point to regularly re-iterate your religious beliefs and make a big to-do about what church you attend and how often you go?

    There’s a little book titled Dreams From My Father* written by a guy named Barack Obama. It was originally released 15-years ago. It’s a national bestseller and has been discussed ad nauseum and quoted/cited in many places. It tells the life story of one Barack Obama. It’s a life story we heard all about during a two year period from 2007 through 2008.

    I think the media and the American people are the ones to blame here, Ms. Sullivan, not the guy who wrote a popular book about his life.

    *But this is just yet another example of Obama employing Al-Taqqiya, right Ricky?

  • sharksbreath

    Did you see any of these verses in your bible.

    Woman with “familiar spirits” must be stoned to death. Leviticus 20:27

    “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Exodus 22:18

    Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:

    You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

    Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

    Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

    Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

    Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

    Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

    Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

    Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

    Ignorance is bliss. Christians should not practice free inquiry nor socialize with non Christians:

    Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

    Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

    Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8

    Judge other religions for not following Christ:

    Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

    Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

    The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7

    Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12

    False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9

    Since Christians aren’t Jews it seems as though your all members of the synagogue of Satan.

    That’s what the bible tells me and the Republican party proves it everyday.

    Sucks to be you.

  • newfreedomblog

    Rather than just taking Pam Geller’s words at face value, perhaps this is where the 60% or so of Americans who believe Obama is truly a Muslim himself get their information from.
    .

  • 53_3

    Truth
    knock, knock!
    .
    Truth
    Honey, I’m home!
    .
    Truth
    Ricky! ACORN is “lying low”. ACORN was dissolved. ACORN is a dead organization. A stiff. A goner. ACORN wouldn’t voom if you ran 10,000 volts through it. ACORN is an ex-organization!
    .
    Truth
    Ricky, you got some ‘splaining to do…

  • 53_3

    Wow.
    .
    Rusty will do anything if the end result is Obama’s demise. Where will he draw the line?
    .
    Would Rusty have secks with animals?
    .
    Stay tooned…

  • 53_3

    Seems to me that the GOPers have gotten this worked out just right.
    .
    They can go to Antioch church here north of Seattle and:
    .
    *Receive salvation by Hutch in the name of “God” for their sins
    *Have a soothing salve applied to their practiced racial ignorance by a famous Black man
    *They can hate freely and, unlike the rest of us will receive “God”‘s blessing for it.
    *Commiserate, without fear of running afoul of the Ten Commandments, with the 13th Disciple*, Rush Limbaugh
    .
    *This is kinda like the “12th man” in Seahawk football, ‘cept religious

  • sail83

    I don’t understand why the Democrats seem so unable to use these recent events to simply highlight the hypocrisy of the current dominant strain of the Republican party….and I am not a big fan of the democratic party, I just don’t understand how they are so unable to exploit the obvious. I won’t use the terms conservatives and liberals anymore, because neither party can claim any coherent philosophy currently.

    They (Republicans) trumpet support for the Constitution, and strict interpretation….except when they don’t like the outcome. Freedom of Religion is great, except when you exercise it in a way that makes them uncomfortable. The free market and the rights of property owners are great, except when they don’t agree with the outcome, and then “the government” should impose their preferred solution. The government should stay out of peoples’ lives, except when imposing their preferred solutions.

  • 53_3

    At first I thought you were going to say something sensible.
    .
    Then, as I progressed through your message, I realized not.
    .
    BTW, how is that “superstorm”?

  • 53_3

    What broker do I contact to buy shares in it?

  • sail83

    Exactly. The story here, if there is one, is really the sad state of our national intellect, and the rise of a new “Know-Nothings” movement.

  • 53_3

    Excuse me for yet another mixing of metaphors, but here goes:
    .
    Ricky, I think Lucy is calling you back across the pond…

  • jambo86

    There are several facts that jump out when such a statistic is revealed. First, the stupidity of the American public can never be underestimated. Second, FOX News is very successful as a propaganda wing for the party of no, party of hate, party of fear; the GOP. Third, the Democrats are not good at communicating to dumb-asses. Or maybe the Dems are as fearful of Obama as the Repubs except they are not as proud of their bigotry as the Repubs. In any case seeing this kind of a stat tends to be demoralizing to anyone that thinks that an intelligent approach can be taken toward anything in this country, like climate change, religious and social tolerance, financial regulation, health care, etc. The citizenry of the US is not really evolved enough to be able to embrace Democracy. Our founding fathers were superior men. Too bad the people of today are so inferior.

  • nibblybits

    Well, at least Ike is not a centrist, right, Derek and Shepherd?

  • nibblybits

    It’s hard to forget Bush is a Christian when God told him to invade Iraq.

  • lepidusxvi

    Rusty – Do you even watch the videos you post or just read the title and assume it proves your preconception?
    .
    Nothing in that video remotely proves he’s a Muslim. It largely serves to prove he’s not a bigot, which is a good quality last I checked, but not even remotely close to showing he’s a Muslim.
    .
    Despite your heated rhetoric, you’re not actually totally a lunatic when you bother to debate actual policy with people. I honestly don’t know how any rational person can buy some of these lies, no matter how much they dislike Obama personally or disagree with his policies.
    .
    This one has been debunked time and again.
    .
    …and all of the above ignores the fact that if it were true, if God forbid he were a Muslim despite all evidence… Why would that be bad?

  • nibblybits

    OMG!!! Is he German too!?! Well, that’s the last straw!
    .
    BTW these “teams” you keep talking about… is it a softball league or something? Cuz if so, I want in. Is there a team just for agnostics or do we have to buddy up with the Zoroastrians?

  • nibblybits

    “Muslims have a mandate in their scripture.to convert the world to Islam.”
    .
    Well, they neglected to knock on my door; should I feel insulted? Unlike the Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists and the Hare Krishnas who come by so often I had to turn the hose on them. And the census lady…can’t forget the census lady.

  • nibblybits

    That’s bad, but for me the incest and laying down with animals were really a bridge too far.

  • nibblybits

    When the mob hysteria dies down a bit, I think that’s the conclusion most rational people will come to.

  • groenhagen2

    “For my money, though, the real headline–and the news that should be causing heartburn over at the White House right now–is that the percentage of Americans who can correctly identify Obama’s religious faith as Christian has dropped by 14 points in the past year and a half. A plurality of Americans (43%) have (sic) no idea what religion he practices.”

    There’s actually scant evidence that the man-child Obama is a Christian. What church does he attend now? We know he attended Jeremiah Wright’s “church” for 20 years and subjected his daughters to a form of child abuse by making them listen to Wright’s racist and hate-filled “sermons.” However, it would be a stretch to call Wright’s church “Christian.” It appears the only actual religious instruction the man-child has had is when he had instruction in the Islamic faith while he was in Indonesia, and that would certainly fuel speculation that he continues to be a Muslim. I’d have to put myself with the plurality that has no idea what religion he practices.

  • groenhagen2

    “Freedom of Religion is great, except when you exercise it in a way that makes them uncomfortable.”

    Didn’t Time feature a woman with her nose cut off on its cover recently? That was done in accordance with someone’s religion. Doesn’t the exercise of religion in that way make you uncomfortable?

  • jambo86

    Christianity is bunk! Get over it! It is good that you do not know what religion Obama practices. it is none of your business. If he is not a Christian that is good. Christianity has caused more suffering in this world than all other religions combined. And religions in general are there for people who need to have something to believe in so that they will be good boys and girls. By and large religion has nothing to do with truth.

  • sgre144

    Maybe the President should announce to the world that he is converting to Judaism and the bris will be telecast from the Rose Garden. I’m quite sure Bill Kristol would recommend a less than competent mohel to perform the service. This would show doubters that the President was not a Moslem, as both Jews and Moslems are circumcised.

  • johnnyzts

    I’m not sure why I read this blog. I must be the incredibility of it that keeps drawing me in. The complete idiocy of these liberal statements completely amaze me. President Obama is a failure because of who he is and what he does, not because of what conservatives say. Although most liberals are dreamers I don’t think they are stupid enough to believe what the press says Conservative or Liberal.
    The American people are not so easily swayed by fiction. I may be naive but I still believe people are judged by there actions and not so much by how they are portrayed by special interest. Neither Fox news or MSNBC carry the weight you give them credit for. We are not so blind to not see through the fog. Obama is a self serving failure who is trying his utmost to drive us into Socialism and the Democrats are willing to follow thereby sinking us all. Let us not be guided by the Holier than thou.

  • charlieromeobravo

    “There’s actually scant evidence that the man-child Obama is a Christian. What church does he attend now? ”

    I wonder what people mean when they say they want him to “prove” that he’s a Christian. Last I checked they don’t issue licenses or hand out official “Welcome to Christianity” certificates. If they did, would it matter? Official copies of his birth certificate haven’t stopped some wing-nuts from believing that he wasn’t born here. So, what would satisfy you?

    BTW, he goes to the same church that George W Bush went to.

  • kjk28

    I was horrified before the election when my college educated brother-in-law declared Obama a Muslim. Now, I’m one of those who’s not sure.

    Why? Well, for one thing, he’s tried so hard to downplay Christianity in order to not offend Muslims (“America is not a Christian nation”).

    I do have one small quibble with groenhagen2′s post. In the book Game Change, the authors wrote that the Obama campaign couldn’t tell the truth during the Jeremiah Wright controversy: Obama couldn’t have heard his hate-filled preaching because Obama never went to church.

  • charlieromeobravo

    “Sadly, with the help of…”

    Another wing-nut that wouldn’t believe 2+2 = 4 if Limbaugh or Palin claimed that math was a liberal plot.

  • 53_3

    Does your reasoning apply to the witch burning in Salem, Mass in the 1700′s?
    .
    Eh, groeny? Catholic got your tongue…

  • daveinok

    Sadly, when you deconstruct Obama there is no there, there. He was against the surge now claims credit for it. He went to Rev. Wright’s church but doesn’t remember any sermons. He was for the mosque until his pollsters said back off. He wanted to be a tabula rosa so we could paint our own picture and now says hold on, that ain’t me?

  • ricardo4max

    Why Would I want to read the bible? I am not Christian or Jewish and neither of these two religions have declared war on America.

  • 53_3

    So, groeny, when 51% of Americans become convinced that General Relativity is a leftist plot, what will happen to the Sun?
    .
    And what about gravity and time?
    .
    Careful what you wish for, groeny.
    .
    You may just get it…

  • nibblybits

    Blaming Islam for the Taliban is like blaming Christianity for the KKK.

  • jambo86

    It would be a great relief to know that Obama was not a Christian. It would be a sign of maturity. After all most of the founding fathers of this country were not Christians.

  • 53_3

    “Obama is a self serving failure who is trying his utmost to drive us into Socialism and the Democrats are willing to follow thereby sinking us all.”
    .
    I thought you said you don’t give credence to FOX?
    .
    That, and that Fat Focker Rush Limbaugh are the only places you hear that.
    .
    That is, with the exception of friends who do give these outlets credence.
    .
    There are only two conclusions that can be drawn here:
    1. You are making a self contradictory statement, and you actually do put credence in FOX, or
    2. Insanity is ok as long as it’s regurgitated

  • ricardo4max

    One would expect that the quality of debate and replies on a Time web site would be much higher than this.
    Kevin: born and raised in the USA of full blooded middle class American parents, albeit close to the Canadian border. Does the word colour bother you as well? LMAO!! I do have the right to call you anti-American anti-American at least until the Obama regime becomes even more repressive.
    Derek: great spelling for a fourth grader on a topic of which you appear to be an expert!
    ogliberal: What the heck are you talking about? al-Taqqiya??? I guess when you don’t have an argument that you can win, You lefties create a false argument. Anyway, ther ea numerous examples of Obama sympathizing with islam and muslims. The mandate given to NASA is a great one. The support for a victory mosque at ground zero is another. While he may not be a foot washing daily prayer muslim, he certainly takes their side at every opportunity. That cannot be denied.
    nibbly: If you don’t think Sept 11 was Islam knocking on your door, then just sit back pop open another Ol’ Milwaukee, turn on American Idol or Dancing with the stars, and fire up that crack pipe.

  • sacredh

    “It’s hard to forget Bush is a Christian when God told him to invade Iraq.”
    .
    I’ll bet God told W. quite a few other things too, like “STFU”, “Leave me out of this”, “Don’t EVER mention My Name again”, “You’re an idiot” and “You should be ashamed of yourself”, but George probably thought it was the Devil because it wasn’t what he wanted to hear or it contradicted Cheney.

  • stewartiii

    NewsBusters: TIME’s Sullivan Defends Obama’s Christianity, Attacks Conservatives for Perception by Some He’s Muslim
    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2010/08/19/times-sullivan-defends-obamas-christianity-attacks-conservatives-perce

  • sacredh

    “Let us not be guided by the Holier than thou.”
    .
    That’s why many of us are democrats.

  • johnnyzts

    Some people refuse to see what they read.

    “I thought you said you don’t give credence to FOX?”

    No,what I said was

    “Neither Fox news or MSNBC carry the weight you give them credit for”

    Your physic qualitys are slightly out of wack if you choose to put your words in my mouth..

  • sail83

    I was once given this advice:

    “Never argue with an idiot. People watching might not be able to tell who’s who.”

    So I don’t engage with a lot of people online.

  • johnnyzts

    26.2″Let us not be guided by the Holier than thou.”
    .
    That’s why many of us are democrats.

    I can understand this. The two party system is great as it sparks thoughts that can only grow understanding.

  • jgrcich

    This article seems to miss an ENORMOUS point; that many who regard the POTUS as a Muslim, and NOT a Christian, do so simply because he displays none of the characteristics normally associated with Christianity. He defends Muslims and Muslim causes, while allowing Judeo-Christian persons and causes to have no priority. His having learned “the teachings of Jesus Christ” quote from the earliest of the Jeremiah Wright days as an evidence of his Christian roots sounded much more professorial than fervant. His administration’s love affair with Muslim causes, along with his rude treatment of Israel, the exclusion of Franklin Graham from the National Day of Prayer…his personal (and erroneous) lifting up of Muslim accomplishment in speeches, the NASA administrator’s new role in the promotion of Muslim achievement, his personal thumbs-up on the NY mosque…and on and on and on. Gee, I wonder why Americans in greater numbers just might think the POTUS is not quite who he claims to be! He doesn’t reflect the faith of a marginal Christ-follower, much less a fervant one! One will defend in word and deed that which is firmly believed.

  • sacredh

    john, welcome to swampland. It’s much easier to put the comments into the context of the post when you click on the red “reply to this comment” and then post. Sometimes a comment winds up being much further down the thread because of other inserted posts.

  • sacredh

    “He doesn’t reflect the faith of a marginal Christ-follower, much less a fervant one! One will defend in word and deed that which is firmly believed.”

    .
    Maybe the President takes the constitution seriously and that’s why he defends the rights of all faiths. I know it’s a shock to have a President that puts the words and laws of our country above the wishes of a particular faith, but some of us are actually happy that he does.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Ricky! ACORN is “lying low”. ACORN was dissolved. ACORN is a dead organization. A stiff. A goner. ACORN wouldn’t voom if you ran 10,000 volts through it. ACORN is an ex-organization!”
    .
    53_3,
    .
    Remember that Republicans couldn’t believe that Terri Schiavo was brain dead and brought the US Congress to a halt to try and impose federal law to make sure that a brain dead person is continuing to get a feeding tube.
    .
    Damn it! You know what the Republican Party needs now? They need Elvis Presley to stop playing dead and be the good Nixon Supporter he was and clear this whole matter up for everybody.
    .
    Don’t tell me Elvis Presley is really dead!
    . :)

  • sail83

    to sacredh

    Amen to that

  • bobcn1

    Here’s how Amy accounts for the high level of ignorance and accepted falsehoods about Obama:
    ‘ “In the relative vacuum of information, suggestions from the president’s critics have been able to gain more currency and uncertainty is rising.” I think that’s about right.’

    Here’s how the NY Times accounts for the same problem (link): ‘The findings suggest that, nearly two years into Mr. Obama’s presidency, the White House is struggling with the perception of “otherness” that Candidate Obama sought so hard to overcome — in part because of an aggressive misinformation campaign by critics…’

    Quite a difference! To Amy falsehoods propagated by Obama’s ‘critics’ are ‘suggestions’ . To the NY Times (and to anyone willing to state the truth — without providing cover for the bad actors) Obama’s ‘critics’ are engaged in an ‘aggressive misinformation campaign’.

    Amy,
    Please grow a spine. Your timidity in the face of obvious facts does not serve your readers. Nor does it serve yourself.

  • kjk28

    Well said, jgrcich.

  • 53_3

    Sorry, Patrick.
    .
    He’s an ex Elvis…

  • 53_3

    Dunno about all of this. Was Dick Cheney offered the position of “God” after he left?

  • sacredh

    “That’s bad, but for me the incest and laying down with animals were really a bridge too far.”
    .
    Puritan. ; )

  • 53_3

    Did you or did you not make this statement?
    .
    “Obama is a self serving failure who is trying his utmost to drive us into Socialism and the Democrats are willing to follow thereby sinking us all.”
    .
    Did I or did I not state that the only place that you find silliness like that is on FOX and Rush Limbaugh’s shows, or from people regurgitate it?
    .
    No psychic powers here, just observations…

  • highcheef

    Hate to be the one to inject the taboo subject into the debate but would anybody believe that Obama was Muslim if he was white? Not casting aspersions, just curious…
    And I’l take my answer offline…Thanks

  • sacredh

    I swear to God…if the world ends on December 21st, 2012…it’s going to be Reagan’s fault because he and Nancy f**ked around with that astrology stuff in the White House. They had every right to be be pagans, but couldn’t they have waited until they were back in California? God doesn’t care what they do in California because it’s California, but DC was the capitol of christianity.

  • sacredh

    “would anybody believe that Obama was Muslim if he was white?”
    .
    I doubt it. McCain was born in Panama and nobody thinks he’s a hat.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Democrats have historically despised and rejected evangelical Christians This is a fact..”
    .
    “Mon, Feb. 04 2008 04:11 PM ESTA surprising new survey out Monday found that more born again Christian voters said they would support a Democratic candidate than a Republican candidate, breaking the long tradition of born-again support for the GOP.The new Barna study shows that if the general election was held today, 40 percent of all born again adults who are likely to vote in November would choose the Democratic candidate, and only 29 percent would choose the Republican candidate. The remaining 28 percent are currently unsure whom they would support, preferring to vote for a specific candidate rather than strictly along party lines”
    .
    http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080204/born-again-christians-favor-democratic-candidates-says-survey/index.html
    .
    Many Christians felt very used and taken for Granted by the Republic Party for an agenda of War and inhumane social policies of the Bush Administration.
    .
    “In the 2008 election, 42% of all born again adults voted for Barack Obama. The born again vote represented 40% of his aggregate support in the general election.”
    .
    http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/17-leadership/350-christian-support-for-obama-declines
    .
    “Democratic Sen. Robert Byrd would change his position on the KKK and civil rights matters latter in life, after he became a ‘born again’ Christian, according to his own words, even going so far as to support the presidential campaign of Barack Obama over that of Hillary Clinton in 2008.”
    .
    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5532102/dem_sen_robert_byrd_dead_at_92_claimed.html?cat=49
    .
    I am not even going to bother to link to the fact that Jimmy Carter, absolutely a Democrat, was equally absolutely a Born Again/ Evangelical Christian.
    .
    “So why would anyone need to explain any further about that relationship?”
    .
    Because you have the facts wrong again.
    .
    “Are you now attacking evangelicals Christians as the perpetrators of the Vulcan mind meld to cause well over 70% of the American population to question this”
    .
    Stuart did not blame evangelicals for this. He blames the media for not saying “a Mosque not far from existing Mosques three minutes away from, out of sight of and not en route to Ground Zero” instead of the inaccurate question of “do you want a Mosque on top of the remains of Ground Zero?’
    .
    “Other than the swift boating allegation, which in my mind was a fair tactic to have been used to expose Mr Kerry’s out and out lies about his military career, what are you really asking?”
    .
    I don’t even want to bother getting into that completely discredited slander of Kerry.
    .
    He and McCain fought bravely. I do not believe that is, per se, a reason to become president, but, the Swift Boat movement was a fraud paid for by Billionaire T Boon Pickens.

  • chicagojohn

    Amy,

    You specifically blame Fox for the fact that some people believe they saw on the news that Obama is a Muslim.

    What’s missing from your story is anyone on Fox saying that Obama is a Muslim… which is a significant oversight.

    You are doing the exact same thing that you are blaming the public of doing: jumping to a conclusion without a presentation of any proof.
    Who is more irresponsible here? The public who incorrectly jumps to the conclusion that the president is a muslim, or the member of the press who incorrectly blames that perception on what Fox said, without telling us what Fox said?

    My personal opinion of this polling aberration is that it is a result of two things:
    1) A president who *seems* to defer to Islam far more often then mentioning his own faith
    (his first interview is a great example:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/26/al-arabiya-obama-does-fir_n_161087.html; his unusual stance of coming out to defend the mosque near ground zero; his bashing of southern Christians as people who cling to their guns and God.)
    2) An increasing belief that if the president claims something, its a lie (the economy is getting better, the stimulus bill saved us from a great depression, he was going to sunshine all laws, he wasn’t going to use signing statements, he was going to pull out of Iraq completely in 6 months, he was going to close Gitmo immediately, he was going to work with Republicans, etc.)

    The reason why the president’s poll numbers are cliff diving over the past year has a lot more to do with the president’s disinformation campaign, then anyone elses disinformation campaign.
    Not to mention: Our president pushed for a bill that 2/3rds of the country didn’t want passed.
    Why is the press surprised that the public is increasingly disenfranchised with him and will disbelieve what he claims?

  • 53_3

    ricardo:
    .
    A resident of a British speaking counrty, or an immigrant from one to the US really has no business telling Americans just who and who is not an “America hater”.
    .
    You think I could do the reverse in your home country and retain any credibility?
    .
    Think about it…

  • billiecat

    Muslims have a mandate in their scripture.to convert the world to Islam.
    .
    Sorta like this one?
    And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    .
    Mark 16:15-16 (King James Version)

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “What broker do I contact to buy shares in it?”
    .
    That would be in the elusive derivatives market. Obama is a Muslim Shares just went up 9 points making billions of dollars this week.
    . :)

  • 53_3

    As a very sharp point on this, I ask you this question:
    .
    On your immigration and citizenship exams, do you think that you would have passed them if you regurgitated FOXisms like you do here?
    .
    Think about that too…

  • chicagojohn

    Bobcn,

    Would you care to give an example of this disinformation campaign?
    I gave several examples of how the president has killed his own reputation and has given the impression that he doesn’t know the truth. With that in mind, and our president stepping in to defend someone building a mosque at ground zero, do you think… for a moment… that maybe the president might be giving people the ‘false’ impression that he can’t be trusted to provide us with the truth?

  • 53_3

    McCain was born in Panama?!?!?!?
    .
    Sacred. You’ve rocked my world…

  • 53_3

    Deniability is golden, isn’t it…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The Turks despise the man.”
    .
    Because he was wavering on the idea of acknowledging that the killing of a majority of the Armenian civilian population was a genocide.
    .
    http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=obama+armenian+genocide&aq=0&aqi=g3g-m2&aql=&oq=Obama+Armenian+&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=6480ba044cf61dc3
    .
    I’ve had good friends from Turkey and if you wish to make the most polite, calm and well mannered Turkish person very uncomfortable, ask them about the Armenian Genocide. From childhood Turkish schools write history of the genocide out of their history books. They are told over and over that this was a fabrication and are, very often, very likely to believe that it never happened.

  • chicagojohn

    SacredH,

    Its not that our president *doesn’t* put one faith above others, but that he *does* seem to fall so often on defending people of a muslim faith, while describing some of those of a Christian faith as those who cling to guns and God.

    Let me put it another way:
    Suppose that the president visited Saudi Arabia. A short time later, he derides the people of Iran as those who cling to guns and God.
    Would you take offense?
    If you were muslim, would you believe that the president shared your faith?

    A third example:
    19 radical baptist men from South Carolina decide to fly planes into a building, killing 3,000 people. A Baptist preacher decides to build a mega-church a couple of blocks away from that site.
    Do you believe that it would be prudent for the president to defend that Baptist?

    I don’t think the president is a muslim. I think he’d have to have faith in something greater then himself to be religious, and I don’t think he’s capable of that.
    However, its not a great mystery as to how people have been given the wrong impression about where his loyalties lie.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    LOL.
    .
    Just imagine this voice like James Earl Jones (everybody knows that if there is a god, he sounds exactly like James Earl Jones) telling Bush “STFU”, etc.

  • chicagojohn

    Ugh.
    I needed to add one more thing.

    I found this fact in the poll significant. Of the people who say that they ‘learned’ about Barack’s Muslim faith in the media, only 16% said that they had seen it on TV.

    Those of you who continue to blame Fox can sit back down.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “In fact, everyone must profess and practice their faith publicly.”
    .
    Yes, Obama should have a cross tattooed to his forehead with a rosary surgically attached to John Kerry’s hand with a Star of David tattooed to Joe Liberman’s face.
    .
    Apr, I know that you are sarcastic as I am.
    .
    Good point.

  • shepherdwong

    That said, the broader point really needs to be examined. We all see blatant misrepresentations and lies from politicans in the media every day. Yet, somehow “fair and balanced” (and I don’t mean that in the FOX slogan way, but in the actual way) has morphed into “present both halves of the argument without critical filter.
    .
    Spot on, lepidusxvi. To spend nearly 1,500 words on Obama’s public image problem – or ask “[w]hat it says about us” – without a single mention of right-wing lies and corporate press acquiescence to those lies, makes you Time’s most lucid and informative columnist of the day.

  • afguy

    Of the people who say that they ‘learned’ about Barack’s Muslim faith in the media, only 16% said that they had seen it on TV.
    .
    How many of the number got that information from listening to El Rushbo?? True, he’s NOT on TV..
    .
    As for Fox and their supposedly not calling the President a Muslim or non-citizen, they just have a number of RW commentors on their show (in many cases repeatedly) who keep bringing it up, even after it’s been debunked, saying that “the question is out there and he needs to address it”.
    .
    But Fox never actually SAID themselves that he’s a Muslim/born in Kenya, did they?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Retardo Max,
    .
    If you were familiar with American rather than British slang you would have known that you handle was begging to made fun of.
    .
    The last time you said that you were a life long Floridian and now you grew up near the Canadian border.
    .
    Just admit that you are a part of the British National Party and have no idea how far it is from Canada to Florida and that you are a bloody wanker.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “..neither of these two religions have declared war on America.”
    .
    Nor have the Sufi Muslims or any faction of Islam other than the most radical of the extremist of the Wahhabi.
    .
    It’s like when the Branch Davidians declared war against the Federal government if Clinton went through the country saying that we, also, are at War with Baptists, Episcopalians, Catholics and Methodists, too.

  • chicagojohn

    Afguy,

    First off, you’re completely ignoring that only 16% of the people said that they got their opinion from TV.
    You’re just skating right over that.
    Secondly, you’re still blaming Fox while not actually quoting any “RW commentator” on Fox who called Barack a muslim. My guess is that you’re not doing this because if you did, you’d find Fox challenging those who bought this up as a “fact”… which would really be a buzzkill for your whole theory.

    Once again, I’m asking for facts. Not assertions. Not blame throwing. Facts.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “There’s actually scant evidence that the man-child Obama is a Christian.”
    .
    “We know he attended Jeremiah Wright’s “church” for 20 years..”
    .
    Since Jeremiah Wright is a Christian and in 1988, twenty years before he ran for president, he was at a Christian Church at age 27, you are most of the way there.
    .
    Add in that he was raised Christian by his mother and grandmother the only thing not documented was what Church he attended when at Columbia University and Harvard Law School.
    .
    I bet the chaplains of those schools could find record or Obama attending services then, Kevin.
    .
    Speaking of man-children, how’s living off of your wife’s income going, Groenhugger?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “He went to Rev. Wright’s church but doesn’t remember any sermons.”
    .
    No, he said that he was not present during the one that Faux News found and did not support what Write had said that particular day.
    .
    “He was for the mosque until his pollsters said back off.”
    .
    No, he supported and supports the right of the owners of the land to build the Burlington Coat Factory Cultural Center but, asked more, did not know if he thought it was a good idea to do so.

  • chicagoansrnotthugs

    Firstly, being President is like any other job. Does your employer have the right to ask you your religion? So, it does’nt really matter what religion he is.
    Secondly, due to the fact that he can be any religion he wants and still be the President, who cares what religion people think he is.

  • chicagojohn

    Afguy,

    Would you like to give an example of “el Rushbo” telling us that Obama is a muslim?

    Surely, since you mentioned him, you believe that Rush has said this, repeatedly. So surely, you have dozens (or even one) example of Rush propagating this idea.

    Explain. Give an example.
    I found an article on Media Matters where Rush blames CLINTON for the idea that Obama is a muslim:
    http://mediamatters.org/research/200701200003

    Maybe that’s what you were thinking of?

    Of course, Media Matters also blames Republicans for a ‘whispering’ campaign. That’s another way of saying that there is no one saying out loud that Barack is a muslim.

    Go figure.

  • chicagojohn

    “Firstly, being President is like any other job.”
    .
    It is not. The president has far more responsibility then any other job… he’s leader of the free world.
    Furthermore, he is hired based on who he is, his personality, his (oh man) honesty, and how much people relate to him.
    If this were not true, candidates wouldn’t spend so much time parading their kids on magazines telling us about what family people they are.
    .
    Presidential candidates do that. You don’t do that in any other job.
    .
    “Does your employer have the right to ask you your religion?”
    .
    No. But then I don’t mention my religion when someone is interviewing me. Politicians do that all of the time. They want you to believe that they are just. Like. You. In this case, the president hired a racist preacher as his spiritual adviser during the campaign. One who became a center of controversy. Its really, really hard to argue that his religion is not important in that lens.
    -
    “Secondly, due to the fact that he can be any religion he wants and still be the President, who cares what religion people think he is.”
    .
    If you honestly don’t care, you’re one of the very few who do not.
    Kennedy was elected by a heavy catholic majority.
    Bush’s critics describe his voters in unflattering terms, but using the word “Christians”…. or, to use Barack-speak, those who cling to guns and God.
    Of course, none of this would matter in a world without religions. But people actually do practice religion in our country… and they tend to vote for people who are like them. That’s why candidate Barack spoke about his faith during the campaign.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    First, you need to correct this:
    .
    “19 radical baptist men from South Carolina decide to fly planes into a building, killing 3,000 people. A Baptist preacher decides to build a mega-church a couple of blocks away from that site.”
    .
    The Hijackers were from the most radical offshoot of Wahabi Islam while the Mosque is being built by the very liberal Sufis.
    .
    To make this analogy fair it would be:
    .
    “19 Branch Davidian men from Texas decide to fly planes into a building, killing 3,000 people. A Unitarian preacher decides to build a YMCA a couple of blocks away from that site with the expressed hope of building better understanding between Christians as well as between Christians and Jews”.
    .
    Then add in that these Unitarians have Rabbis, Catholic Priests and Monks and Protestant Ministers marching in their support.
    .
    Then add in that the vast majority of those who live near this Unitarian YMCA support it.
    .
    Now you have a fair analogy.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Chicago,
    .
    You can not tell anything about a person’s character by how they pray.
    .
    Obama promised a very fair health care system providing for the poor just as Christians, Muslims and Jews all promise to do and, after wrestling with your right wing “Christian” buddies got out something somewhat improved for the poor.
    .
    I could go on and on, but, saying who you pray to and why tells you nothing about how you would do anything at all.
    .
    Bush attacked Iraq so that he could win the 2004 election, castrated the MMS and SEC creating future disasters for short term economic gain to win more votes and bribed the wealthiest Americans with unaffordable tax cuts raising our national debt further and further than ever before.
    .
    But is he says that he is praying exactly the same way that you are praying, that means you should… vote for him?
    .
    Vote for somebody who proposes reasonable policies likely to improve the economy and benevolent to our needy and who cares if this man or woman is inspired by stories of the Buddha, Jesus Christ or just inspired by mankind itself to be such a good person.

  • chicagoansrnotthugs

    The President is a governmental employee entitled to the same rules of any other employee. It does not matter and actually would be against the law for him to promote a particular religion.

  • apr2563

    If those on the right will remember, McCain and Obama, pandered to the Christianists by allowing themselves to be questioned by the charlatan Rick Warren on CNN during the election.
    Would they be satisfied if he bowed down to Pat Robertson and kissed Rev. Hagee’s a$$ as McCain did, after having rightly criticized them in 2000?
    The extremists just keep getting more reactionary and up the ante for crazy.

  • bobcn1

    The links I quickly found on Google and posted are currently trapped in moderation. BTW — they were very easy to find. There’s lots of examples. Some are serious propaganda. Others are just sneaky use of the language intended to leave false impressions.
    .
    As an example of ‘disinformation’ I give you your own phrase ‘building a mosque at ground zero’.
    .
    No one plans to build a mosque at ground zero. Some people are trying to build a Muslim community center several blocks away. The closest it comes to being a mosque is the fact that it will contain a prayer room. It will also contain basketball courts. It also has Christians and Jews on its board of directors.

  • ricardo4max

    Patrickgarter,
    I NEVER said that I was a life long Floridian.
    I have lived in Florida since 2001. It must be difficult to go through life only grasping bits and pieces of reality.
    You never really have anything of substance to offer for debate. Just ad hominem attacks, regurgitated propaganda and lies.
    Grow up and support America, our Constitution, and capitalism or find that Marxist utopia that you kooks are always dreaming of.

  • ricardo4max

    Sorry patricksgarter, There are far more than just a few Islamic radicals calling for attacks an the US and advocating Islamic takeover of the western world. Perhaps you should stop defending them and start being an American.

  • sacredh

    chicagojohn, I believe that the President feels that’s it’s necessary to defend people of the Muslim faith because they are also Americans and have the same rights as everyone else. We seem to forget that when our own terrorists commit a horrific act, there isn’t any movement to stop people of their faith from building a house of worship. It doesn’t even come up. What religion did Timothy McVeigh belong to? Did anyone even ask? If he was a Protestant would the President have felt it necessary to defend all Protestants? What religion did the Olympic bomber belong to? It’s never an issue unless it’s a religion we don’t particularly like. I don’t like any of them, but that’s just my personal opinion.
    .
    If 19 radical Baptists flew a plane into a building and killed 3000 people we would think the 19 men were terrorists, not Baptist terrorists. That’s our problem. We wouldn’t say all Baptists are terrorists and prevent them from building churches. We would be outraged over the act, not the religion. IF, and that’s a big if, Baptist terrorists blew up a building and the President had to defend the Baptists in general because of the actions of a few, I would be outraged. Not at the President, but at my fellow Americans that were so shallow and hate filled that they couldn’t tell the difference between the actions of a radical faction and a religion that they belong to.
    .
    I would personally prefer to have a President that wasn’t religious at all. Our problems are going to be solved by us, not by any gods that we put our hands together to and beseech. I don’t like the anti-science fundamentalists at all, but if they were getting harassed and being denied their rights, then I would want the President to defend them because it’s his job to protect all of us, not just some.

  • http://mannanite.wordpress.com mannanite

  • 53_3

    Patrick:
    .
    If what you say is true, do you think Rusty’s hatreds might lead him to take up a different religion?
    .
    Say, maybe, Islam…

  • http://www.facebook.com/majors.bruce?ref=profile brucemajors

    But he is a Marxist and anti-American so who cares about his religion.

  • afguy

    Kennedy was elected by a heavy catholic majority.
    .
    Don’t believe there were enough Catholics to elect John Kennedy just because of his religion. I think some of his election had to do with his ability to appeal to our more noble principles, not just blatant self-interest.
    .
    Bush’s critics describe his voters in unflattering terms, but using the word “Christians”…. or, to use Barack-speak, those who cling to guns and God.
    .
    My definitions of a Christian has NOTHING to do with their position on gun ownership. In fact, I know more than a few true Christians who won’t allow a gun in their house. Those are separate issues.
    .
    Try as I might, I can’t find any mention of guns in either the Old or New Testaments. Neither Jesus or Moses seemed to have any position on the type of “heat” to pack.
    .
    There was, however, a lot of talk about the evils of the love of money, something about a camel passing thru the eye of a needle, concern for the least of those among us, etc.
    .
    I had a supposed Christian try to convince me that GWB was sent by God to be President. My response to that was that the God I knew wouldn’t have needed one of the dirtiest campaigns on record, millions of dollars in attack ads, and a SC decision to install his choice in the office. And he definitely wouldn’t have employed a Karl Rove as part of the operation.
    .
    If you believe that Obama has not met the ethical standards needed for the office, that’s your right. How about giving all of us here an example of a conservative candidate, aside from the ethical and moral pygmies the GOP has thrust out on the national stage in recent history, that you think might be able to do the job?
    .
    Some concrete proposals from them would be nice too, some that would rely on proven successes, rather than just cut taxes and HOPE it all works out for the best.
    .
    We just had 8 years of tax cuts, wars, and slavish devotion to keeping Wall Street happy. More of that, from Obama or whoever the GOP nominates, is NOT what we need.
    .
    I’m afraid Winston Churchill was right: Americans will always do the right thing – AFTER they’ve exhausted all of the alternatives.
    .
    I just hope too many vital pieces don’t fly off before we reach that point.

  • http://mannanite.wordpress.com mannanite

    Whether he is a muslim or not… Obama portrays himself ignorant to the fact that Islam’s goal according to it’s spiritual leaders is nothing less than world domination. Someone who grew up in the Islamic culture surely would know this.

  • ricardo4max

    Good post jgrcich!

  • 53_3

    Got one task and one question for ya chicago:
    .
    Task:
    .
    Show me that Democrats are to blame for the rumor.
    .
    Question:
    .
    Can you refute the statement that nearly all believers in the “Obama is a Muslim” meme are Republicans?
    .
    If you can show me that there are as many democrats believing this as there are republicans, then you have a point – and – your deniability is intact.
    .
    Otherwise, what you are really trying to do is to split hairs and crawl away under cover of cofusion.
    .
    Let’s see your hand…

  • http://mannanite.wordpress.com mannanite

    Funny how he doesn’t need a teleprompter when quoting from the koran

  • 53_3

    I think that they are getting ready for their November push by stopping their medications….

  • 53_3

    So Sarah’s hand is better?
    .
    Gotcha…

  • 53_3

    1. You don’t know what a Marxist is.
    2. You don’t know anything about the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States

  • bobcn1

    Hopefully, the links I posted earlier will escape moderation. Here’s a few more (that I hope I can sneak through moderation by using HTML tags).
    .
    link
    .
    link
    .
    link
    .
    link

  • groenhagen2

    “Does your reasoning apply to the witch burning in Salem, Mass in the 1700′s?”

    Yes. That makes me uncomfortable as well.

  • groenhagen2

    fatpat:

    There is more evidence that Obama received Islamic instruction than Christian instruction.

    And how about we keep our wives out of the discussion. Oh, that’s right. You’re too fat, ugly, and effeminate to get a wife.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Grow up and support America, our Constitution, and capitalism or find that Marxist utopia that you kooks are always dreaming of.”
    .
    “support America”
    .
    “sup·port (s-pôrt, -prt)
    tr.v. sup·port·ed, sup·port·ing, sup·ports
    .
    5. To provide for or maintain, by supplying with money or necessities.”
    .
    I’m a Democrat and, so long as it is for an improvement, I am willing to pay my share of taxes.
    .
    You, Retardo, do not support America. You want a free lunch: roads, police, fire, schools, highways, courts and do not want to pay for America.
    .
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/support
    .
    “our Constitution”
    .
    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
    .
    Allow the Sufis to build the cultural center in the Burlington Coat Factory Building.
    .
    “capitalism”
    .
    “an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market.”
    .
    I have never been opposed to capitalism. For a living, I help businesses buy or lease privately owned land. Being a commercial real estate agent is “supporting capitalism.
    .
    “… find that Marxist utopia that you kooks are always dreaming of.”
    .
    Who are you talking about?
    .
    Grow up and pay your federal taxes and be willing to vote for people who may be willing to raise your taxes if it serves the people well, allow the Sufis to build the cultural center in the Burlington Coat Factory Building and continue to work in commercial real estate.”
    .
    Sir, I am doing all of those things.
    .
    You are right wingers should lean how to support America, respect the constitution or find that fascist country you have been dreaming of where everybody is pastie white like the British Nationalist Party bloody wankers want to create.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “There are far more than just a few Islamic radicals calling for attacks an the US and advocating Islamic takeover of the western world.”
    .
    But 100% of them are from the Wahabi branch of Islam.
    .
    None of them are Sufis.
    .
    Why don’t you stop being a fascist and start supporting all Americans even when they are Muslim?

    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “There is more evidence that Obama received Islamic instruction than Christian instruction.”
    .
    No, there is absolutely no evidence at all that Obama’s Christian mother and Christian Grandmother gave him any Islamic instruction at all and absolutely no reason to believe that Jeremiah Wright is a Muslim.
    .
    BTW: I saw pictures of your wife – I wouldn’t be bragging if I were you.
    .
    No kids? I guess she finds you as repulsive as everybody on the Swamp does. That’s why you don’t have any children.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Both of my parents were Irish Catholic and neither one voted for Kennedy.
    .
    Although dominant in the Northeast, Catholics are only 20% of the US.
    .
    Kennedy was elected because back in 1960 people were intelligent enough to vote for people based upon policies, not religion.

  • Ivy_B

    Actually, 60% of the people in the Pew poll who think Obama is a Muslim said that they had learned it from the media.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/08/poll_most_of_those_who_think_o.html

  • http://quantumcosmos.wordpress.com morgansjc

    I don’t know exactly what the president believes in terms of religion. I do know that his new policy is that Jihad (Jihadists are killing Americans right now) is a “legitimate tenet of Islam”. I know that in the policy there is no such thing is a terrorist, since terror is a state of mind. I know that a Muslim imam is being flown to Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and other countries at public expense by the State Department when there is a supposed division of church and state in this country. He just happens to be the Muslim imam behind the Ground Zero mosque. He just happens to be visiting his largest financial supporters. Is a Catholic cleric soon to be flown to the Vatican? Somehow, I think not. I know the president attended a very anti-American church for 17 years, and that Jeremiah Wright, the pastor preached that blacks should sing not “God bless America”, but “God damn America”. I watched him do it.
    These are facts. Infer what you will from them.

  • mrbohio

    Thank you so much, Time, for telling us he is not a Muslim, because we sure couldn’t tell he wasn’t by his actions and words from “my Muslim faith” Freudian slip to his own books, or his past, or his schooling, or his parents, or his current activities. Once again, the media to the rescue, pasting those Armani clothes on the naked emperor. Come Pulitzer time, you can all sit around and toast yourselves at what great investigative work you have done.

    And for those that said “ACORN is dead” — I guess, you, too, didn’t know they “got a whole lotta federal funds” and don’t know they have 361 (accroding to Congress) co-organizations to shuffle their funds in. They are far from dead and far far far from being the non-partisan group that they are supposed to be to receive the millions in federal funds they Do and STILL receive, under various aliases. They are no more dead and no less crooked than the Cosa Nostra. SEIU= Acorn, Profect Vote = Acorn, ACORN Inernational = ACORN, who last quarter grossed over 60 million .
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Acorn-International-Reports-prnews-4038326691.html?x=0&.v=31

  • shepherdwong

    …many who regard the POTUS as a Muslim, and NOT a Christian, do so simply because he displays none of the characteristics normally associated with Christianity.
    .
    It’s true. He’s not obviously deluded nor a does he appear to be a rank hypocrite.

  • http://mannanite.wordpress.com mannanite

  • http://mannanite.wordpress.com mannanite

    It really depends on one’s definition of what a “Christian” is…

  • shepherdwong

    “Would you like to give an example of “el Rushbo” telling us that Obama is a muslim?
    .
    Jebus. I had no idea that Chicago had fallen off the face of the Earth. Someone should alert the media.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Okay,

    How does buying a building with a swimming pool for people of all religions (and swimming pools are very rare in Manhattan – I only know of two gyms with swimming pools for one and a half million Manhattan residents) inviting all sects of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and all other religious leaders over for interfaith meetings achieve the goal of violent revolution against Democracy?
    .
    It can’t.
    .
    With Vatican Scholars who spend their life studying Islam in terms of Christianity both for interfaith dialog and for the ideal of converting Muslims to the Catholic Church would Catholics support this Mosque?
    .
    They wouldn’t.
    .
    Why would Jewish Rabbis familiar with Islam in their studies of other religions and often the victims of the most radical Muslims consider this group of Sufi Muslims good and a pathway to interfaith dialog if this group contains radicals willing to attack and kill Americans as well as Jews and Christians abroad?
    .
    They wouldn’t.
    .
    Why would residents of New York, a vast majority Christian and a majority Catholic Christian be willing to allow a cultural center if this particular group was dangerous?
    .
    They wouldn’t.
    .
    So, right wingers are telling us the Priests, Cardinals, Bishops, Catholic and other Christian theologians, Rabbis and Jewish theologians, relatives of the victims of 9/11 and residents of the neighborhood are all much dumber than Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O’Rielly, Sean Hannity, Michael Savage and the extreme right of the national political spectrum.
    .
    My bet is on the overwhelming majority of theologians and local residents above the ultra right wing of other parts of the country.

  • http://mannanite.wordpress.com mannanite
  • shepherdwong

    “Once again, I’m asking for facts. Not assertions. Not blame throwing. Facts.”
    .
    Here are some facts, laughingboy, including the facts that there are plenty of right-wing sources tafficing in traitorous slander of the president, beside FOX News. Read it and weep (unless your just a partisan liar who’s simply pretending not to know anything about what all of us have seen with our own eyes):
    .
    http://mediamatters.org/research/200701300007

  • shepherdwong

    Bush’s critics describe his voters in unflattering terms, but using the word “Christians”…. or, to use Barack-speak, those who cling to guns and God.
    .
    Obama didn’t say “Christians” you brainwashed wingnut. He was talking about rural people in the Rustbelt who saw their local economies die. Some of them might even be Muslims.
    .
    Why don’t you STFU until you get your facts from someone other than FOX. We have enough brainwashed right-wing idiots embarrassing themselves here on a daily basis and I am 100% sure that you won’t add a thing to the discussion.
    .
    http://www.cnbcfix.com/obama-cling-guns-religion.html

  • sacredh

    Wow. Three pages on whether or not the President is a Muslim. Even the question of whether or not Palin is an idiot dies after a page or two. Much easier question though. She is.

  • http://justmeint.wordpress.com justmeint

    Actions speak louder than words…… He kisses or bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia! He does not celebrate Christmas, He does not attend Christian Church, he HIGHLY supports a mosque at Ground Zero, He prays with muslims at the White House…… but he ain’t one himslef? get real.

    If it walks like a duck
    If it quacks like a duck
    If it goes ‘craps’ like a duck
    IT probably is a duck!!!!!

  • shepherdwong
  • chicagojohn

    Patrick,

    No one said that you can tell anything about a person’s character by how they pray. That’s a complete strawman.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “He does not celebrate Christmas.”
    .

    .
    Really?
    .
    Is this is like the moon landings: faked in a government cover up – the astronauts never left Texas.
    .
    It looks so real, doesn’t it?

  • chicagojohn

    “Here are some facts, laughingboy, including the facts that there are plenty of right-wing sources tafficing in traitorous slander of the president, beside FOX News.”

    Dear Shepardawg,
    No one was suggesting that there are not people out there who are saying that Barack is a muslim.
    What I did was directly challenge you and others to produce facts supporting the idea that Fox News is doing that.

    You’ve yet to produce such facts.
    Instead, you linked to Media Matters, who has already been shown in just this past week to edit conservative sources in order to badmouth them.

    Once again, lets get this straight: if its Fox News that you blame, show me Fox News telling us that Barack is a muslim. Or even better, Fox not challenging any talking head that gets on their show to say such a thing.

  • sacredh

    shepherdwong: Be fair. Sure, Bush acted like a boy toy around Uncle Bandar, but there aren’t any videos of W dropping trou and spreading his cheeks are there?

  • chicagojohn

    “Can you refute the statement that nearly all believers in the “Obama is a Muslim” meme are Republicans?”

    Yes.
    Didn’t you read the study?
    Roughly 1 out of 10 Democrats believe that Obama is Muslim. How’d that happen?
    More importantly:
    “Among Democrats, for instance, 46% say Obama is a Christian, down from 55% in March 2009. ”

    Clearly, what’s happening is that the majority of the people of the US don’t believe the president when he tells us his religion.
    The difference here is that Democrats just don’t believe that he’s religious, while some Republicans think that he’s clearly friendly to the religion he was bought up in.

  • nibblybits

    Those aren’t ‘facts’ at all, and if that’s what you know, you don’t know much. Your post is a very very sad.

  • shepherdwong
  • chicagojohn

    “Did I or did I not state that the only place that you find silliness like that is on FOX and Rush Limbaugh’s shows, or from people regurgitate it?”

    Well, you’ve pretty much covered your bases there.
    The only places that you can find that opinion are Fox, Rush, and other places that have the same opinion… which you proclaim to be people who are regurgitating the opinion of Fox & Rush.

    Whew. I get dizzy when I jump on those merry-go-rounds of circular logic.

  • chicagojohn

    Patrick wrote:
    “Then add in that the vast majority of those who live near this Unitarian YMCA support it.
    .
    Now you have a fair analogy.”

    Let’s skip for a moment that you changed the religion from Branch Davidians to Unitarian church, because you didn’t like me suggesting that radical Baptists were still Baptists.
    You wrote that the vast majority of the people in New York support it. Where did you read that?

    According to Bloomberg:
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-18/new-york-voters-oppose-mosque-project-near-9-11-site-siena-survey-finds.html
    Its opposed 2 to 1.
    Your mileage may vary.

  • nibblybits

    The photo of Bush kissing and holding hands with the Saudi King does not begin to describe the incredibly close relationship of the Bush family with the Saudi royal family as detailed in House of Bush, House of Saud by Craig Unger.
    .
    If another President, in the wake of 9/11, had broken the no-fly restriction over the US in order to fly 140 Saudis, including many of the bin Laden family, out of our country, the uproar would have resulted in accusations of treason and impeachment. Not just impotent speculations that he’s a ‘secret Muslim.’

  • shepherdwong

    “You’ve yet to produce such facts.
    Instead, you linked to Media Matters, who has already been shown in just this past week to edit conservative sources in order to badmouth them.”

    .
    Since Media Matters facts are all sourced, you could check out their veracity yourself, if you cared about the truth of it. You don’t. You’re either a partisan liar or brainwashed authoritarian-following moron. Either way, now that we’ve established that you’re unfit for debate with honest, knowledgeable people, I can ignore you like the rest.

    On January 27, the first editorial from a major U.S. newspaper on the smear appeared in the Chicago Tribune. The editorial said that “what Insight did on its Web site, and what Fox News did in repeating the report” was “unethical, unprofessional and shabby, a trifecta, if you will, in the world of journalism.”

    The next day, The Washington Post editorial board chimed in. The editorial stated: “Insight, whose piece was eagerly touted by Fox News Network, might have learned” that Obama attended a public school in Indonesia, not a madrassa, “if it had bothered to check its story rather than cravenly attributing the false report to ‘Hillary Clinton’s camp,’ citing unnamed ‘sources close to the background check’ that the New York senator supposedly conducted into Mr. Obama.”

    .
    And that was just the beginning.

  • shepherdwong

    If another President, in the wake of 9/11, had broken the no-fly restriction over the US in order to fly 140 Saudis, including many of the bin Laden family, out of our country, the uproar would have resulted in accusations of treason and impeachment.”
    .
    I’m pretty sure you meant to write:
    .
    If a Democratic President, in the wake of 9/11, had broken the no-fly restriction over the US in order to fly 140 Saudis, including many of the bin Laden family, out of our country, the uproar would have resulted in accusations of treason and impeachment.

  • sacredh

    shepherdwong, I’m not the least bit surprised that the tapes were found. It wouldn’t shock me to find out that all of them still exist. If I was an underling and thought there was any chance that I’d be made the scapegoat in the torture fiasco, I’d have copies squirreled away to protect my ass. Sh!t rolls downhill and if you’re standing on the bottom, it’s nice to have a little protection just in case it looks like you might get splattered.

  • chicagojohn

    “If 19 radical Baptists flew a plane into a building and killed 3000 people we would think the 19 men were terrorists, not Baptist terrorists. That’s our problem. We wouldn’t say all Baptists are terrorists and prevent them from building churches. We would be outraged over the act, not the religion.”

    Here’s the problem:
    * The hypothetical Baptists said that it was their Baptist religion that told them it was right to slaughter non-baptist pilots and fly the planes so that the non-believers would die.
    * “Baptists” elsewhere rejoiced in the fact that the “Baptists” had flown the plane into the WTC. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only guy who saw that video.
    * “Baptists” are currently the #1 purveyors of terrorism throughout the world. Period. To pretend like they are not is to ignore what’s been going on.

    Now you’ll note that I’ve never said that all Baptists are terrorists. That’s not my problem… its yours.
    What I’ve suggested, and others have been yelling, is that if you were a Baptist, and you understood how your religion is being perceived, you might want to be a little more sensitive.
    Maybe. Just a little.
    Or you could be a real jerk and build your Baptist cathedral a couple blocks away from where the radical Baptists slayed 3,000 people in the name of their religion.

  • chicagojohn

    “As an example of ‘disinformation’ I give you your own phrase ‘building a mosque at ground zero’.
    No one plans to build a mosque at ground zero. Some people are trying to build a Muslim community center several blocks away. The closest it comes to being a mosque is the fact that it will contain a prayer room.”
    .
    Bobcn,
    First you decry misinformation, then you start spinning.
    Its a mosque. How do I know that? The organizers said so:
    .
    “The future of the center — organizers say it will have a mosque, but its 15 floors will be mainly for other functions — has become grist for talk radio, cable television and election fights across the country. ”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/11/nyregion/11mosque.html
    .
    Now can we stop playing word games and admit that there is a mosque being built near ground zero? yes? Maybe?

  • 53_3

    Then, groeny, maybe you should answer those instants. Do you know why, groeny?
    .
    Because they are telling you you are wrong.
    .
    How so?
    .
    Because, you, by your own statements, are engaging and promoting a modern day witchhunt.
    .
    How do I know?
    .
    If I substitute “witch” for “Muslim” I find your discourse is only missing the proscribed punishment…

  • sacredh

    One other thing that made no sense to me: I work at at a federal installation and we clean EVERY office EVERY night. That box was sitting under the desk for years? Please! We get told about it there’s a scrap of paper on the floor overnight. The office was abandoned? The CIA is so sloppy that stuff just lays there for years? I don’t think so. It also made me wonder about the tapes getting found being ones that didn’t have harsh interrogation techniques on it. It sounds like it was planted there to me. See…what we did wasn’t so bad.

  • Friar Tuck

    I was getting ready to rickroll you clowns, but I remembered at the last moment that Firefox defaults to embedding the video and am too lazy to locate a “safe” clip.
    .
    I say “clowns” with love, but driving up Amy Sullivan’s thread-count on a post that even she had to know was good only for “trawling for trolls” – and on a Thursday, no less! – is just sloppy.
    .
    “Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.” – Rom. 14:5 – “and watch the merry mix-ups that occur!” – Walt Disney

  • 53_3

    Then tell me why the people that believe that drivel you spewed are mostly the same Republicans that ascribe to “birther” views, watch FOX, and don’t seem to know much of anything but what Rush Limbaugh tell’s ‘em.
    .
    Let’s see what profile you put up.
    .
    I betcha it certainly isn’t any reasonable individuals. See below..

  • chicagojohn

    “If another President, in the wake of 9/11, had broken the no-fly restriction over the US in order to fly 140 Saudis, including many of the bin Laden family, out of our country, the uproar would have resulted in accusations of treason and impeachment.”

    Well, you’re going to have to find the FIRST president who did that:
    http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flights.asp

    Once again, the only thing ruining a democrats arguments are facts.

  • sacredh

    “I was getting ready to rickroll you clowns”
    .
    I’ve been doing it for you to protect your honor.

  • chicagojohn

    And yet, not one piece of evidence supporting what democrats wrote earlier: that either Rush Limbaugh or Fox News is to blame.
    .
    I’m patient though. I’m still waiting.

  • sacredh

    “The future of the center — organizers say it will have a mosque, but its 15 floors will be mainly for other functions”
    .
    Most hospitals have a chapel but most of the other space on the floors is for other functions.

  • 53_3

    Roughly 1 in 10?
    .
    Roughly means “roughly”. Very approximate.

    The task was to show me some Democrats. I’ve seen lots of crackhead GOPers point this out, but so far, no swampland democrat has ever ascribed to it!

    Wonder just how rough Roughly is…
    .
    What percentage of FOX viewers believe that?
    .
    What percentage of Teabaggers believe that?
    .
    What percentage of Dittoheads believe that?
    .
    What percentage of Glenn Beck followers believe that?
    .
    I think chicago, what you are trying to do is dive for the sidelines whilst your teammates sow confusion.
    .
    No false equivalency and no deniability here…

  • chicagojohn

    Jambo,
    More then half of Democrats do not believe that the president is Christian. Considering that the president identifies himself as such, why aren’t democrats being pilloried for what they believe?

  • sacredh

    I think you have confused me with another poster saying Fox was responsible. I’ve commented extensively in this thread but didn’t say that.

  • 53_3

    “That’s a complete strawman.”
    .
    C’mon, chicago, Obama’s “Muslim” religion is a strawman!

  • 53_3

    I wish I coulda seen it.
    .
    But it would it would be hard to beat Shephardwongs’ pics of GWB engaged in a bit of homoerotic foreplay with Bandar.
    .
    YIKES! I never realized he kissed the guy on the lips. I thought they always kissed each others’ cheeks.
    .
    How could I have been so stoopid…

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    Seems to me the only solution would be to ban Fox news and talk radio.
    All news will come from one source. Works in other countries, where the leaders usually garner 100% of the vote.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Chicago,
    .
    The survey you found was for all of New York State.
    .
    “The Research Institute, a part of Loudonville, New York- based Siena College, said the telephone survey of 788 registered voters earlier this month had a margin of error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.

    To contact the reporter on this story: Michael Quint in Albany, New York, at mquint@bloomberg.net. ”
    .
    Palidino, for example, lives 400 miles away from Ground Zero in upstate New York.
    .
    I do stand corrected on how many New Yorkers support it:
    .
    “A solid 52% of voters in the five boroughs don’t want the Cordoba House in lower Manhattan, and just 31% are behind the center.

    Voters in Manhattan are most supportive of the project, with 46% in favor.

    The strongest opposition came from Staten Island, where 73% of voters oppose it.”
    .

    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/07/01/2010-07-01_more_than_half_of_new_york_voters_oppose_ground_zero_mosque_plan_poll.html#ixzz0x6Gp70L4
    .
    So, Manhattanites, the ones closest ones to the proposed site and the ones who should be considered the most important since it where they live, are split 50/50 on if it is in good taste or not.
    .
    Keep in mind that Upstate New York is very conservative as is Staten Island (which you need to get to by boat from Manhattan unless you wish to drive many miles through Brooklyn to get to) and neither one are very close to the site.

  • 53_3

    I think, chicago you are splitting hairs.
    .
    Let’s just, for the sake of argument, that FOX and Rush Limbaugh are exonerated.
    .
    The problem still remaining is why so many Republicans believe such nonsense!
    .
    Are they stupid, or what? As for as that “roughly 10%” of Democrats believe it, hell, you can have that, but it doesn’t change the general equation. Show me some! I’m gonna guess that the number of crackhead GOPers believing this drivel far exceeds that of Democrats, because in this 170 – odd Swampland sample, all but one Republican is pushing it vigrously!
    .
    Hell in the how do you explain that…
    .
    I pointed laughingly at your ridiculous opening comments about Obama, and, having been through the cold war and more liberal presidents than Obama, that is just bs.
    .
    The same bs that is routinely served up by FOX, Limbaugh and other rather dim bulbs in the media sky…

  • sacredh

    I didn’t see any tongue action. It was all semi-innocent 1st base material.

  • 53_3

    How come we don’t get to see GWB tonguewashing the scrotile member, shep?

  • 53_3

    Recognition of a “common bond” perhaps?
    .
    I colda swore that the scrotile member was next on the agenda…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “”Now you have a fair analogy.”

    Let’s skip for a moment that you changed the religion from Branch Davidians to Unitarian church, because you didn’t like me suggesting that radical Baptists were still Baptists.”
    .
    No, Chicago, I have no preference of Unitarians over Baptists.
    .
    Branch Davidians = Blow your ass up Christians.
    .
    Unitarians = Famously mellow Christians.
    .
    Sufis = Famously mellow Muslims
    .
    Wahhabism = Blow your ass up Muslim.
    .
    So, if the Branch Davidians blow up things, should you punish the Unitarians?
    .
    No.
    .
    If the Wahabists blow something up, should you punish the Sufis?
    .
    No.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The president has far more responsibility then any other job… he’s leader of the free world.
    Furthermore, he is hired based on who he is, his personality, his (oh man) honesty, and how much people relate to him.
    If this were not true, candidates wouldn’t spend so much time parading their kids on magazines telling us about what family people they are.”
    .
    “No one said that you can tell anything about a person’s character by how they pray. That’s a complete strawman.”
    .
    So telling you about his religion tells you about his honesty but not his character?
    .
    In my book, a person’s character is primarily about their honesty.

  • chicagojohn

    53, you wrote:
    “Then tell me why the people that believe that drivel you spewed are mostly the same Republicans that ascribe to “birther” views, watch FOX, and don’t seem to know much of anything but what Rush Limbaugh tell’s ‘em.”
    .
    The irony here is that you’ve created a stereotype while I’m absolutely positive that you don’t believe you subscribe to stereotypes.
    .
    What’s obviously missing here is you SUPPORTING WHAT YOU WROTE.
    You asked:
    “Wonder just how rough Roughly is…”

    Its 10%, according to the Pew Poll.
    I’m sorry if I presumed that you had actually read it. 10% of Democrats believe that Obama is a Muslim. 41% DON’T KNOW WHAT RELIGION HE IS.
    .
    Are those Fox News viewers? Are they people who, I dunno, don’t believe that the president means what he says?
    This isn’t too surprising to me: Democrats don’t believe that the president tells the truth, either. They don’t even believe the image that they voted for. They just trust that any man who looks that good must be honest. Well, about everything except what God he prays to.
    .
    Of course, all of this skips over the fact that you STILL can’t produce one link of evidence of either Fox or Rush saying that Obama is a Muslim… despite your belief that both were the source.
    Is it that you don’t think either has said so, or the interweb-thingie won’t find it for you?

  • sacredh

    “How come we don’t get to see GWB tonguewashing the scrotile member, shep?”
    .
    Obviously you weren’t on the White House Christmas card list that year. It was very festive in a two popcorn balls and a peppermint stick kind of way.

  • chicagojohn

    “What religion did Timothy McVeigh belong to? Did anyone even ask?”

    I don’t know if anyone did. The point was that they would have HAD to have asked.
    Tim McVeigh didn’t go to his death saying that God told him to blow up the Murrah Federal Building. He didn’t say that it was his faith that told him to do it, or that he was fulfilling his religion by doing so.
    Moreover, if Tim McVeigh *had* said that he was doing it as, say, a Mormon, it would surprise us all… because it would be out of character for a terrorist to be Mormon, or use the Mormon religion as their motivation.
    .
    It is, unfortunately, not an unusual thing at all for terrorists to say that they are doing it in the name of their Muslim religion.
    .
    But we’re once again losing focus on the topic at hand, which is why do so many people doubt what the president says he believes?

  • chicagojohn

    Just so I have this straight:
    You’re ‘proof’ that there is a disinformation campaign against the president is that there are a bunch of chain e-mails out there disparaging him.
    .
    Correct?
    .
    So what do you feel about the chain e-mails that are against Sarah Palin that are also wrong? Is that part of a disinformation campaign?

  • Friar Tuck

    I’ve been doing it for you to protect your honor.
    .
    Somebody has my back! I mean, in a good way!
    .
    Bless you.

  • chicagojohn

    “And that was just the beginning.”
    .
    well, yeah… you wouldn’t want to print the whole thing… because that would blow a giant hole into your theory.
    First off, Media Matters acknowledges that CNN covered the same article in Insight that said that OBAMA WENT TO A MADRASSA as a kid. Not exactly the same thing as saying that he’s a muslim.
    .
    What did Gibson do? He read a statement on air from the Obama camp that denied it. He then accused Hillary’s camp of starting the story.
    What did Glenn Beck do? He said that “the odds of this being true pretty darn close to zero,” and said that there was no evidence of it.
    .
    In the meantime, what did CNN do?
    They said that Obama “writes in his autobiography that he spent two years at a Muslim school in Indonesia” and they chastised Fox for ‘getting it wrong’ when both Glenn & Gibson were blaming it on a smear campaign by Hillary.
    .
    I don’t mind democrats blaming conservatives when they do bad things, but clearly, this is a case where Beck was on the air saying that the chance of it being true was close to zero. How much more specific do you want him to be before blaming him more?

  • chicagojohn

    You’re still trying to change the topic, but I’ll answer one more.
    I wrote:
    “Furthermore, he is hired based on who he is, his personality, his (oh man) honesty, and how much people relate to him.”
    .
    You wrote:
    “So telling you about his religion tells you about his honesty but not his character?”
    .
    No. When a politician tells you what their religion is, they are telling you what their religion is. It has nothing to do with their honesty.
    Unless, of course, you don’t believe them.
    .
    Now I wasn’t intending to make this connection, but you kinda steered me there. The president has said he is Christian. Less then 50% of democrats believe that he’s Christian.
    I think that’s fascinating.
    Is it that they don’t believe him?

  • sacredh

    FT, it’s a good thing I play Wii and have quick reflexes. That blessing blew right out of the computer screen and scorched a hole in my computer chair. On a serious note, I take your blessing as a compliment. OTOH, My MIL can say “Bless You” and make it sound an awful lot like “F**K You”.

  • chicagojohn

    Sarah wrote six words on her hand.
    .
    The president can’t get through a birthday speech without checking the words on the mirror above the monitor.

  • chicagojohn

    “I think, chicago you are splitting hairs.
    Let’s just, for the sake of argument, that FOX and Rush Limbaugh are exonerated.”
    .
    Asking you to prove your assertion is not splitting hairs.
    If you’re going to blame someone, you should have, I dunno… proof? Or a whisper of proof?
    Yes, I’m watching you try to change the topic again. I’m not buying it. I’m waiting for you to prove something before you change the topic and then decide that you don’t have to prove that either… because all you really want to say is that you don’t like Republicans.
    .
    Which is fine.
    You don’t have to like us.
    But I’d love it if you’d actually produce evidence when you make an assertion such as the idea that Republicans get the idea that Barack is a muslim from Fox & Rush.
    You made the assertion.
    Support it.
    Or at least be man enough to admit you were wrong.

  • chicagojohn

    Whoosh!
    And both of you ignore the fact that what you believed was not true.
    .
    That’s what bothers me about people like you. You’re very quick to point out how ‘crazy’ people are to jump to the conclusion that the president is muslim. Yet, when its pointed out to you that what you believe is balderdash…?
    .
    You can’t just admit it.
    I’m willing to bet that months from now, you repeat the same damn talking point: “Bush let the Saudis fly out on 9/11!”

  • chicagojohn

    Sacredh,

    In most churches, not every room is used for worship.

    Your inability to admit that its a mosque is well noted…. as is the previous poster who called it… what? A prayer room?

    Its a mosque. Say it with me: Mosque.
    It would make you an adult if you admitted it.

  • Friar Tuck

    In the Carolinas, “F**k you” is often phrased as “Suit yourself.” Pretty good.

  • chicagojohn

    “Yeah, how about that? Thanks to Fox News, fringe conservative wing nuts, and the McCain/Palin campaign playing up the “ooh, he’s foreign and scary because he set foot outside the US when he was growing up” angle..”
    .
    Charlie,
    Only one problem with this theory. It came up during the primaries, and was widely believed to be the work of Hillary’s campaign.

  • chicagojohn

    “Second, FOX News is very successful as a propaganda wing for the party of no, party of hate, party of fear; the GOP.”
    .
    Statistically speaking, you are part of the uninformed that you hate. 16% of those who say that they learned about Obama’s Muslim faith from the media, say that they saw it on TV. Now let’s presume that ALL of that 16% watch Fox.
    I presume you have a link to Fox saying that Barack is a Muslim?
    No?
    I didn’t think so. No one has been able to produce one.
    .
    Now where did the rest of those, the other 84%, who say that they learned it from the media get it from?
    Let’s go one further… what about those who didn’t get it from the media?
    .
    Statistically speaking, you’re blaming a very small amount of this on Fox. But you still need to produce a link.
    .
    “Third, the Democrats are not good at communicating to dumb-asses.”
    .
    They are really great at looking like dumbasses though.
    One last stat; less then 50% of democrats believe that Barack is a Christian. Are they dumb asses too?
    Or do they just mistrust him, and not believe what he says?
    If so, why are they smart, and Republicans dumb?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “It is, unfortunately, not an unusual thing at all for terrorists to say that they are doing it in the name of their Muslim religion.”
    .
    Correct that:
    .
    It is, unfortunately, not an unusual thing at all for terrorists to say that they are doing it in the name of a particular sect of the Muslim religion called Wahhabism.
    .
    Since these people are not a part of that sect, this is like punishing Methodists for something Lutherans did.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “When a politician tells you what their religion is, they are telling you what their religion is.”
    .
    So, if he does not discuss it then that is fine, too, just as I do not tell my religion to people when I am working unless it is Hanukkah and they notice that I am not celebrating.
    .
    “Less then 50% of democrats believe that he’s Christian…Is it that they don’t believe him?”
    .
    Maybe most Democrats consider the president’s religion as unimportant as his shoe size.

  • sacredh

    chicagojohn, the quote that YOU posted says “it will have a mosque, but its 15 floors will be mainly for other functions” . You posted that quote. What can we take from that? Exactly what it says. Most of it’s 15 floors will be used for other functions. It’s a community center that CONTAINS a mosque. I don’t mind conversing but please leave the childish insults out of it.
    .
    “Its a mosque. Say it with me: Mosque.
    It would make you an adult if you admitted it.”
    .
    The quote that you posted says one thing and that’s what I responded to. If you want to prove your point, select a quote that doesn’t prove mine. And just exactly how would buying into your fantasy make me an adult? It’s a community center with a mosque in it. Most of the building is NOT a mosque. That’s from your quote. Grow up. The childish bullsh!t doesn’t impress any of us.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Chicago,
    .
    If the other fourteen floors are for the entire community (including a pool – one of only three I know of in Manhattan for one and a half million people) and one is for prayer, it is almost exclusively not for for prayer but for gaining an interfaith understanding by the most liberal anti-violent, anti-terrorist sect of Islam it is a community center a three minute walk from Ground Zero, not in sight or en route to Ground Zero.
    .
    So, it is the Downtown Islamic Center.
    .
    St Patrick’s Cathedral does not have a pool. It just has a few places that hold holy water. It has no rooms for non-Catholics. It has nothing inside of it for interfaith dialog. it is all about worship.
    .
    So, this is the Islamic equivalent of the YMCA.

  • sacredh

    “But we’re once again losing focus on the topic at hand, which is why do so many people doubt what the president says he believes?”
    .
    Many of us don’t care what people who think the President is a Muslim believe. It’s as simple as that. The birthers, socialist believers…they’re not important to me. They believe whatever nonsense they want to. If one thing gets discredited, they move on to something else. Their paranoid delusions are for them and their doctors to sort out. It doesn’t affect me (other than for comedic value).
    .
    I’ve given up trying to see logic in the right wing thought processes. it’s just not there. They dress up in silly costumes and yet expect us to take them seriously. They cry about high taxes killing them and yet tax rates are at a 50 year low. Why would we take them seriously? They say Obama is our Messiah and yet I’ve yet to meet a single democrat that believes anything even close to that. barak’s a man born in Hawaii to a mixed race couple of parents. He’s not the messiah and he’s not the anti-Christ.
    .
    I’m really supposed to care what those looney tunes think? As long as they don’t turn violent, I’m content to watch their antics and laugh at them. That’s how seriously they deserve to be taken. They’re an object of derision, not concern.

  • sacredh

    I’d like to stay and play, but I have to shower and head off to work. It was semi-interesting. Not really fun, but then it wasn’t a “1000 Words”. And patrick, we’re never going to convince someone who can’t be convinced. This community center/mosque is a no-win situation. We see it for what it is, others see a potential bomb factory. We may as well try to teach our dogs to speak Mandarin.

  • http://gogoqueen66.wordpress.com gogoqueen66

    Nice spinning Time…Your heads are pivoting so fast you have whiplash. Wow. Let us concoct this number as a % and this one as a number out of 10 and this one we will use a fraction. Anything to make Teleprompter Imam…oops I mean Teleprompter Jesus look good. That is why publications like this are no longer relevant. However you spin it more and more people are not buying what Barack Hussein Obama or Barry Soetoro is selling. He is becoming a national joke and the joke is on every one of the fools that fell for the Hoax and Chains con game. You thought you got a messiah and you got very sad commie community organizer.

  • yihaoj88
  • yihaoj88
  • tkoa

    Alright Chicagojohn,

    I’ll bite, only because I’m tired of intelligent people using their god given/ biological abilities to encourage intolerance.
    .
    Being the President of the United States is just like any other job. The only difference is that there are more people who to have the final say over what the job description entails and who gets it. It’s a job with the responsibility of looking after the people of the United States and passing laws which benefit them in the long term. (Or Vetoing laws which do not). I admit that President Obama has probably not being doing that very well. Not because he passed laws which you or the public may disagree with but because they benefit large corporations more than the average American.
    .
    He appears (to me at least) to be a centrist corporatist. Someone who finds the middle ground between his voters and large industry institutions’ demands. Not someone who builds a consensus between a divergent set of citizens views and that is disappointing. Also, he appears to be afraid of criticism which would be fine, if he wasn’t the President of the United States of America.
    .
    Oh, BTW, He’s not the leader of the Free World. He’s the President of the United States of America. Of course, if you think America is the only country that is Free, then go ahead and use that phrase all you like.
    .
    I’m not sure why you think a person’s faith is a big thing. Do you think one faith has a different set of intrinsic traits than another? Or do you think it’s the culture of a country which believes in that religion and those are the traits we are seeing? Are you saying that citizens of Jordan and the United Arab Emirates are exactly the same as Iraqis or citizens of Egypt?

    Have you met any muslims? Have you talked with them? I have. I lived in the Middle East for years. They’re just normal human beings who grapple with the exact same world you and I deal with. They have a religion which some of them believe in strongly (and others do not) and they like to live in peace without being afraid the ‘Free World’ is going to pay them a visit.
    .
    What if he was an athiest? A Jew? What if he didn’t get religion or athiesm? What does it matter as long as he does his job. To create a country which is the best for all its citizens. (Not just the ones you think should benefit)
    .
    Religion in politics is a bad idea because it takes the focus off what they should be doing (Working towards a better life for all the citizens) and manipulating it into a job for ‘their’ people (Creating a world for only those like them). The first one is hard, which is why politicians struggle to achieve it. That’s why I do not like the way President Obama has presided because it appears his ‘people’ are corporations. Not us. Not you. Not me.
    .
    This is a bigger problem. And here we are arguing which metaphysical force he believes in. (Or why it really matters)

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “You thought you got a messiah and you got very sad commie community organi”
    .
    How dare you!
    .
    We all know that Ronald Reagan, the man who died to lower taxes for the wealthy and to free corporations from the laws protecting the people is the one and only messiah!
    .
    Even though he was less popular than Obama during his first twenty months, even though he was handing our tax dollars to Saddam Husein to gas the Kurds in the name of anti-Communism, tried to overthrow a central American government which, after the election peacefully stepped down in Nicaragua, spent the first two years of his presidency in a recession as bad as this one and ended his presidency with another five years of recession and jobless growth, he is the one and true messiah!
    .
    When good ‘Mericans dah, we don’t go to heaven to see Jesus, we go right past him to get to the Lord, Ronnie prince of the cold war (not prince of peace – that was what Jesus was called, and no good Christian ‘Merican likes that anymore).
    .
    Why, a year after he left the White House, even with Alzheimer’s, he jumped up and flew like Superman from California to Germany. He huffed and he puffed and he blew the Berlin Wall down.
    .
    Wait until Sarah Palin or somebody else as incompetent as her runs on the Republican ticket and you can be assured a landslide victory for Obama.

  • newfreedomblog

    “After all most of the founding fathers of this country were not Christians.”

    .
    You do not know anything at all if you believe this crap.
    .

    http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=78

  • michaelfury
  • bobcn1

    Correct?
    .
    No. That’s not correct. As I stated several times, I have posted a number of other links to examples. The Swampland blog software saw the links and sent the post to moderation. Examples are not hard to find. Try searching for ‘Obama is a Muslim’ in Google. It will return lots of examples.
    .
    However, the propaganda chain emails that I cited in my later post (that were common enough that they had to be refuted by a non-partisan national fact checking organization) do, in fact, constitute examples of disinformation campaigns.
    .
    Although I’ve already proven my point, here’s another link with an even more blatant example of the ‘Obama is a Muslim’ disinformation campaign: link. It’s the propaganda video that was edited to make it look like Obama is saying he is a Muslim (in an even more egregious manner than the smear job that Breitbart did on Shirley Sherrod). Notice that the video has received over 2 million hits.

  • angeleyes711

    Greetings from the tropics of South Florida

    Thank You for your message. I too, have walked among the Muslim People and they are kind, well meaning & want to live in peace and harmony, just as all of should want to do. I an American have no religious opinion regarding the afterlife.

    Except what I experienced from a near death experience I had 2 yrs ago. I came back realizing how foolish all this hatred is. In fact all religion is. In my opinion it is what is wrong with the world. I myself am an agnostic, I try very hard to live my life right and NOT to create any bad karma. Your piece on U-Tube was wonderfully done.

  • bobcn1

    ‘So what do you feel about the chain e-mails that are against Sarah Palin that are also wrong? Is that part of a disinformation campaign?’
    .
    Although this is off the subject, now it’s your turn. As you requested of me — would you care to give an example of this disinformation campaign?

  • angeleyes711

    I don’t care what religion Obama is. What I care about is how he has let the American people down. By giving our taxpayers money to big Industries. He promised us CHANGE and as a nation we badly wanted to believe he would bring that change. Only to find out we are duped by another unethical politician

  • chicagojohn

    Patrick wrote:
    “I do stand corrected on how many New Yorkers support it”

    Well you should.
    Earlier, you wrote that the “majority” of the people around the Mosque supported it.
    Now you come up with the “46%” of those in Manhatten in favor of it, number.

    If you really wanted to know the full truth, you would have gone to the actual poll. But that would be a buzzkill to your point:
    “Opinions about the proposed mosque range from 46 – 36 percent support among Manhattan voters to 73 – 14 percent opposition in Staten Island, the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University poll finds. ”

    Yowsa!
    73% of Staten Island people do not want it.
    Its no wonder why that part of the poll wasn’t cited, eh? Go figure.

  • chicagojohn

    “It is, unfortunately, not an unusual thing at all for terrorists to say that they are doing it in the name of a particular sect of the Muslim religion called Wahhabism.”
    -
    Patrick; when was the last time you heard of someone committing terrorism in the name of Wahhabism?
    You are as off about this as you are about the polls. Yes, there are literally dozens of flavors of Islam. But people do not commit acts of terrorism in the name of that flavor, but ‘for’ Islam.
    -
    If you have any example of a terrorist yelling out ‘in the name of Wahhabism’ as he/she commits a terrorist act, please point to it.
    You’ll note in my analogy, I used the term “radical Baptist”. The fact that the 19 “radical Baptists” do not accurately reflect all sects of their religion does not matter to the people who live in the area where 3,000 people were crushed alive. The people who smelled death on their clothes for months on end because of those who killed in the name of “Islam” do not care about the flavor of Islam.
    Just to make the point clear: what sect is the proposed Mosque? Will they keep out Wahabbists? Of course they won’t.
    .
    I hate that so many people don’t understand Islam and use the ‘oh, that was Wahabbism’ as a cop out. Go beyond the headlines. Read up on how great sections of the middle east reacted during 9/11. Then tell me that its just a tiny sect that supported such actions.

  • chicagojohn

    >> Less then 50% of democrats believe that he’s Christian…Is it that they don’t believe him?”
    .
    “Maybe most Democrats consider the president’s religion as unimportant as his shoe size.”
    .
    The giant gaping flaw in this theory is the dozen or so Democrats in the comment section here who are insisting that you must be an idiot if you did not know that the president is not a Muslim.
    .
    The poll did not ask if they cared about what his religion was. They asked what it was.
    .
    Now you *can* argue that Democrats choose to remain ignorant about his religion…. and you would most likely have a point. But you can’t simultaneously argue that Republicans should know what his religion is if they want to be as ‘informed’ as Democrats.

  • jafagirls

    That’s your basis for thinking he “might” be a muslim because he said ” America is not a christian nation”? There are a lot of people of all faiths who say that! Would they be muslims too?

  • tlcmine

    All the comments in the video posted by newfreedomblog prove is that Mr. Obama is educated, well-traveled, and not a bigot. I would certainly hope those are not the criteria “most” Americans are using to “prove” he isn’t Christian.

  • eddieknoll

    Who cares if he’s Muslim or bigoted black liberation theology (which he passed off for Christianity)? His real allegiance is to Karl Marx. He has been a disaster to the country and has (in many sectors) already correctly identified as the worst President in American history. If there is any good that will come of the disastrous Obama Presidency, it will be the destruction of the modern leftist Democrat Party.

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