In the Arena

Intolerance Zoning

Bomber Boy Charles Krauthammer occasionally eschews right-wing hackery for principled, thoughtful positions that are at odds with his ideology. I remember, back in the day, when he used to do this all the time, having left liberalism behind and not yet been captured by the right. Even in the past year or so, he came out for a universal single-payer health care plan (although he didn’t seem to understand that he did) and a stiff gasoline tax that would be refundable to taxpayers. I agree with him on both.

But freedom of religion appears to be a bridge too far. Today, he invents a concept that can only be called “Intolerance Zoning.” His argument: we create areas where certain types of behavior are allowed or not–commercial and non-commercial, alcohol or no; we also make decisions about whether certain forms of usage–a Disney theme park near the Manassas battlefield–are appropriate or not. But all these decisions have one thing in common: they concern activities that are not protected by the Constitution. Freedom of religion is protected. Period. (Even by Krauthammer’s standard, the Mosque will be located two blocks away from Ground Zero–in a heavily commercial areas filled with office buildings, bars [some topless, if I recall], fast-food stores, betting parlors, cheap clothing stores…would his “hallowed zone” be impinged upon by those activities–or is it just the presence of Muslims that defile a place where innocent Muslims were among those who died?)

Krauthammer raises a second shoddy argument: You wouldn’t want the Japanese to build a memorial or cultural center at Pearl Harbor. This is conflating ethnicity with religion. But I’d also be open to a Japanese monument that honored those who died on December 7, 1941, apologized for the attack and expressed the desire for continued close friendship between our two countries. The Polish government’s gesture of allowing Israeli jets to be photographed flying over Auschwitz–which Jeff Goldberg describes in his Atlantic cover story this month–is sort of like that. And so is the Cordoba Center: as planned, it is a celebration of American diversity, a monument to those who died (including the Muslims who died) and a rejection of the extremist theology of those who carried out the attacks.

I knew people who died in those attacks; nine people in my suburban town didn’t come home that night. I also have Muslim friends–some of whom live in that town, some of whom knew and maybe even were friendly with those who were killed–who are appalled by what they consider Al Qaeda’s perversion of their religion. They represent the overwhelming majority of American Muslims. They are part of this country, too. They deserve the same essential rights as the rest of us, including freedom of religion. And if they, and people who share their beliefs, wish to build a community center celebrating the rights they have as Americans, and dedicated to interfaith dialogue, God bless them.

Those so-called “conservatives” who are raising this issue now, cynically attempting to “wedge”  some votes in the midst of a political campaign, are betraying what they claim to believe–the essential protections of the United States Constitution–for short-term electoral gain. How un-American.

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  • textee

    Will Obama and Obama B@#t Boy Joe Klein be present for the grand opening of Greg Gutfeld’s “gay” bar next door to the Ground Zero mosque? http://www.dailygut.com/?i=4696 Will Klein and Obama “dance” together in drag?

  • kryptik1

    No dice, Joe. You know that this isn’t really about tolerance or even being ‘sympathetic’ to the victims of 9/11 or anything. This is just another chapter in the now nearly decade-long campaign to paint Muslims as somehow inherently un-American and unacceptable. The explosion of anti-Mosque campaigns across the country, where no such monuments of disaster stand, not to mention the awful rhetoric used, should tell you that much.

    Trying to appeal to ‘freedom of religion’ here isn’t going to help against a concentrated number of folk who literally believe it wouldn’t apply because ‘Islam is a death cult’.

  • newfreedomblog

    The Cordoba Center: as planned, it is a celebration of American diversity, a monument to those who died (including the Muslims who died) and a rejection of the extremist theology of those who carried out the attacks.

    .
    Really? You have written proof or video statements to that fact you claim? The Imam Rauf does not uphold the terrorist tactics used by Hamas? He has denounced Hamas? Why not just ask him those questions Mr Klein?
    .
    Again, how can you justify the building of a mosque, where the landing gear of one of the planes came down and crashed through the roof of the same building you back as a new Muslim Cultural Center. And then on the other hand show your liberal faux pas outrage at the killing, maiming and the perverted practices of the Muslim religion?
    .
    Let me restate what I said in an earlier thread.
    .
    9 years and women continue to suffer under the Muslim tyranny which the men of this religions not only in Afghanistan, but all over the Muslim world inflict upon them. “A great many women HAVE been suffering at the hands of not only the Taliban, but also the Saudis, the Libyans, the Egyptian, Syrians, and now to a lesser amount the Iraqis. Isn’t that right Joe Klein?
    .
    Isn’t it more of a cultural problem? A religion which you and the rest of the liberals on this very site defend by allowing it to be in the limelight? The same muslim creeds and practices which liberals like Joe Klein attempt to defend in order to build a mosque less than a mile from ground zero. The same muslim creeds and practices this President defends when he makes grand and glorious speeches in front of the Cairo University to put down Americans who “have acted badly”. Isn’t that right Joe Klein?
    .
    Perhaps you should read this article from Huda Jawad. She describes what you and your friend Aryn Baker fail to describe. In Jawad’s statement she says…
    .

    “TIME magazine must be experiencing a severe case of amnesia, judging by the cover of this week’s issue which asks, “What Happens If We Leave Afghanistan .” At best, this effort by TIME is irresponsible slick journalism; at worst, it is one of the most blatant pieces of pro-war propaganda seen in years. The world owes Afghanistan’s women an honest answer as to why we apathetically allow their condition to deteriorate from horrible to simply unspeakable. Instead, TIME is willingly deceiving readers into thinking that the condition of Aisha – the woman pictured on the cover – is a product of the Taliban 10 years ago. It is not. Aisha’s scarred face is a heart-wrenching reflection of the state of Afghan women today in the year 2010, and under the absurd assertion of democracy and the presence of thousands of US and NATO troops in the country.”

    .
    While Jawad attacks not only the TIME cover of the noseless, earless victim of a cruel and vile religion, she also attacks the USA of not really caring about the women in Afghanistan, but more about what is in the best interest of the USA. While I do not agree for the most part with Jawad’s other statements about the US, one has to at least look at what she says…
    .
    “Those absurd enough to propagate that the US is out to liberate Muslim women seem at a loss to explain why the US is not currently sending F-16′s into Saudi Arabia to free its women from the chains of oppression, and from the threat of honor killings and child marriages. Then again, the United States has no qualms about supporting Saudi Arabia with billions of dollars in military aid each year – in addition to whiskey and other unmentionables – in order to maintain the status quo that currently operates the Middle East for American interests”.
    .
    So which is it Joe Klein? Defense of women or defense of the liberal supported muslim religion through this mosque which allows these practices to occur in the first place?
    .
    In order to solve any problem, you have to first dig deep to the root of the problem. In my mind, you cannot support a perverted religion on one hand, and then attempt to be outraged by acts committed in it’s name on the 2nd hand. Isn’t that right Joe Klein?
    .
    If you want to read more from Huda Jawad and her attack of the US of A and TIME Magazine, go here…
    http://www.countercurrents.org/jawad090810.htm

  • 3xfire3

    Joe, Joe, Joe,
    .
    It is always amazing to watch you try to demonize those columnists who have twice as much brains power then you do.
    .
    Krauthammer has an intellect that makes you look like a midget. Yet here you are again trying to marginalize him.
    .
    William Bristol, Glenn Beck, Fred Barns and George Will leave you in the dust in their analysis of current political events.
    .
    Let’s see. A good example of your great reporting and analysis was the story about the tinfoil guy who was wearing a Rand Paul sign on his back and a Dora the Explorer piñata lashed to his chest. “I’m completely against Mexicans,” he explained and Joe faithfully reported this important news event.
    .
    Of course even Joe knew that this was a lie and that this individual had been proven the day before to be a plant from the Jack Conway Campaign. Yet Joe in his usual dishonest Partisan Ideologue manner reported the lie anyway.

    Joe when are you going to “Man Up” and stop trying to build yourself up by trying to tear other reporters and columnists down? It’s not working.

  • ath716

    “‘Id also be open to a Japanese monument that honored those who died on December 7, 1941, apologized for the attack…”

    Cordoba House is going to offer an apology for 9/11? OK, I admit it, that does change things. If Cordoba House, on behalf of the world’s Muslims, is going to apologize to the people of New York and ask for forgiveness, then I think we can conclude they are sincere about reconciliation.

  • 53_3

    Intolerance Zoning:
    .
    The Warsaw Ghetto
    .
    Sorry about the chin music, Joe, but the professional haters look for any excuse to further their aim of keeping hate speech and intolerance included in the new “normal”…

  • mycophile

    Let me restate what I said in an earlier thread.
    ,
    1) it’s not a mosque
    .
    2) how far from Ground Zero would it have to be before you would not object?
    .
    3) are you sure that the “liberals on this site” and Obama “defend” the practices of the more extreme, inane, and arguably insane elements of Islam?
    .
    4) Does someone (do you?), if defending Christianity, automatically support its crackpots? Say, abortion doctor killers or the Spanish Inquisitors?

  • 53_3

    Look at it this way, mycophile:
    .
    In Rusty, freeinpa’s, and 3xfie3′s “minds”, I’m a racist because I defend the Black community.
    .
    There is a common denominator here…

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Freedom of religion is protected. Period
    Freedom of religion is protected. Period
    Freedom of religion is protected. Period
    Freedom of religion is protected. Period

    It’s not a coincidence that it’s the FIRST Amendment.

    No other argument is necessary.

    To allow for a litte hyperbole, If you oppose the mosque, then you hate America.

  • http://djtrudeau.wordpress.com djtrudeau

    22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

    That’s the old Jewish law pertaining to how you deal with a wife you discover isn’t a virgin. Last time I checked, we aren’t scared of Jews because of this.

    Now I know practice of hardline Islamic law is much more prevalent but not in the US. This center is for law-abiding, US muslims. I live in the Detroit area, which is home to a large muslim population. Last time I checked, they live here in peace. They have as much to do with what happens in Afghanistan as my Catholic grandma had with IRA bombers.

    If you are opposed to this mosque because you think Islam is an evil religion, you are a religious bigot. There are no two ways about it. You also put your prejudices above the Constitution. These are facts. We can debate this forever but if those are your starting points, you’re not a voice to be taken seriously. You may feel otherwise about it but that’s not surprising because bigots always think they’re the rational ones.

  • mycophile

    aw, shucks, do I HAVE to look at it?

  • Joe Bftsplk

    I did a MapQuest search.
    There are 5 or 6 Christian churches within a 5-minute walk of Centennial Park in Atlanta.
    Eric Rudolph claimed to be acting as a Christian.
    Where’s the outrage?

  • 53_3

    Not really, mycophile.
    .
    I just wanted to make that point, is all.
    .
    By euphemizing various tendencies, the door opens for false equivalency. And, as you saw in my commentary on the Wall Street or… blog, I’m no fan of false equivalency.
    .
    Remember, the words “final solution” were also a euphemism…

  • 53_3
  • 53_3

    It is just intolerantly funny how these guys spout on about how us “libruls” hate America and the Constitution, but then, attempt to circumvent it by every argument possible.
    .
    I wonder, TV considered himself a Christian, so, how many churches are within hailing distance of the bomb site?

  • 53_3

    So was Timothy McVeigh.
    .
    See 7.1

  • husein11

    Obama girl, Joe Klein, never eschews left wing hackery.

  • newfreedomblog

    You people are so easily determined to be not only liars, but out and out hypocrits.
    .

    1) it’s not a mosque

    Ah, YES IT IS!!
    .

    Cordoba House, also referred to as the “Ground Zero Mosque” and “Park51″, is a planned $100 million, 13-story, glass and steel Islamic community center, which will include a mosque

    .
    Now you explain or lie again on what part of “which will include a MOSQUE” do you not understand?
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordoba_House
    .

    2) how far from Ground Zero would it have to be before you would not object?

    .
    The question this thread poses is the intolerence which the Muslims who are intent on building the mosque / “Community Center” are proposing could be built in the City as has been offered by many many people, just not within the confines of what is considered to be “ground zero”. Ground zero in my mind would be in, near or next to it. Ground zero as I said includes those building damaged by the debri which fell from the planes which crashed into the Twin Towers where thousands of Americans died.
    .
    Should they want to build this building 2 blocks away, a mile away or in the community of Brooklyn where the vast majority of Muslims now live, one would think this would be a better place to erect this building rather than to place it right next to one of the now most sacred places in this country.
    .
    Now here is a thought on tolerence, what if your wife was raped. What if the rapist decided to move in right next door to your home. Do you consider that “tolerant” of the rapist for your wife’s feelings? I didn’t think so.
    .
    No one is arguing that this is or isn’t covered by the First Amendment. What is questioned is the motive and rationale for building it at this specific site. Let them all come out and denounce their Muslim buddies who did crash into the Twin Towers in the name of Allah and Islam. I haven’t seen the Imam or any of his associates do that yet, have you? Then perhaps we could then consider allowing them to build their Mosque at or near ground zero. When they truly denouce terrorism, and the acts of terrorism along with all the other perverted acts which they use to kill, maime and otherwise attack us “infidels”, then maybe we could talk about a mosque on the site of ground zero.
    .

    “3) are you sure that the “liberals on this site” and Obama “defend” the practices of the more extreme, inane, and arguably insane elements of Islam?
    .
    4) Does someone (do you?), if defending Christianity, automatically support its crackpots? Say, abortion doctor killers or the Spanish Inquisitors?

    .
    One only needs to read not only this site, but other sites from liberal leaning individuals, as well as read the words Obama has spoken thus far in his Presidency to know that he not only defends them, but actually puts America down in the process to make Americans out to be the “evil doers”, and not those responsible for the 9/11 attack in the first place.
    .
    Your other not only out of context statement of Christianity, but Christians has absolutely nothing to do with the building of the mosque. The abortion doctor killers are as equally evil as the terrorists who blew up the Twin Towers. Evil comes in many forms, however I do not believe I have read where anti-abortion KILLERS have asked to build a “diversity” mosque or church at ground zero. Please correct me if they have put in the permits. And the Spanish Inquistion? Are you serious? Or as usual are you just tilting at windmills again.

  • yoshiattack

    Always amusing how half your references of other columnists are steeped in prissy, self-righteous condescension.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Krauthammer happens to be an easy target. His basic unhappiness manifests itself in his encouraging other people to kill on his behalf. The sick thing is that he gets paid to do it.
    .
    I do occasionally wonder why Joe always goes for the low-hanging fruit.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Moronic as usual Textee.

  • 53_3

    It’s easy money, Paul…

  • freeinpa

    “In Rusty, freeinpa’s, and 3xfie3′s “minds”, I’m a racist because I defend the Black community”
    =
    No it’s because YOU ARE a racist. You defend an infrastructure that supports racism, quotas and entitlements based on nothing but skin color. You scour the countryside looking for any hint of racism by whites but ignore or rationalize the racists on the left.

    That’s why you are a racist and you own writings here are proof. To quote some dumb A$$ thanks for walking into that wall

  • 53_3

    Nope, freeinpa, what I do is to point out in explicit detail how all three of you know nothing about the Black coummunity.
    .
    I also point out in explicit detai, what is wrong with your “theories” about the Black community.
    .
    So, freeinpa, if you have the “cojones”, why don’t you bless us with those “principles” you spoke of that lead you to turn up your nose at Black conservative voters?
    .
    jeopardy.wav
    jeopardy.wav
    jeopardy.wav

  • freeinpa

    “It is always amazing to watch you try to demonize those columnists who have twice as much brains power then you do.”

    It’s the liberal way. No one gets ahead by lifting anyone up but by pulling down those you disagree.

    JK is the the internet equivalent of Ed Schultz and Keith Olbermann

  • 53_3

    c’mon, freeinpa:
    .
    Let’s see those principles you hold so dear!
    .
    This will be as good a time as any to grab you by the back of the neck and force you to stick your nose in your own sh!t.
    .
    In the meantime, here is an excellent treatise on the Black community in Seattle, with which I am very familiar:
    .
    http://174.36.183.44/~quintard/forging-black-community-history-seattles-central-district-1870-through-civil-rights-era

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    ” The Cordoba Center: as planned, it is a celebration of American diversity, a monument to those who died (including the Muslims who died) and a rejection of the extremist theology of those who carried out the attacks.

    .
    Really? You have written proof or video statements to that fact you claim?”
    .
    Yes he does.
    .
    “The programs at Cordoba Initiative (CI) are designed to cultivate multi-cultural and multi-faith understanding across minds and borders. In the ten years since our founding, the necessity to strengthen the bridge between Islam and the West continues to prevail. Cordoba Initiative seeks to actively promote engagement through a myriad of programs, by reinforcing similarities and addressing differences.”
    .
    http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/about-ci
    .
    There is a video there, too.
    .
    “Ground zero in my mind would be in, near or next to it. Ground zero as I said includes those building damaged by the debri which fell from the planes which crashed into the Twin Towers where thousands of Americans died.”
    .
    So, even in your mind it is not at Ground Zero.
    .
    To anybody in NYC and any tourist seeing the site would call exclusively the block long cratered out area Ground Zero and the rest of it “Wall Street”.
    .
    It is the Wall Street Neighborhood.
    .
    Should we shut down the New York Stock Exchange to honor the dead about ten blocks away?
    .
    “Should they want to build this building 2 blocks away, a mile away or in the community of Brooklyn where the vast majority of Muslims now live..”
    .
    Neither a majority of NYCs Muslims live in Brooklyn nor is Brooklyn a majority Muslim, so I have no idea where your geography comes from.
    .
    ” ..one would think this would be a better place to erect this building rather than to place it right next to one of the now most sacred places in this country.”
    .
    Sacred?
    .
    Is the Hospital bed where my father died “sacred” or just a place?
    .
    It’s just a place.
    .
    My parents’ home is, if anything, the place one may venerate, not where people died caught in an ambush.
    .
    Are parts of Vietnam sacred because Americans were killed in ambushes there or is it just a place?
    .
    Sorry, it is just a place.
    .
    A monument will be built and our grandchildren will not remember to tell our great grandchildren about it just the same way my NYC grandparents never told me about the terrorist attack on Black Tom’s Island.

  • freeinpa

    The Oklahoma blast claimed 168 lives
    =
    Americans died in the September 11 attack.
    As of June 2004, the official death count is listed as 2,976,
    =
    13 A Muslim psychiatrist guns down thirteen unarmed soldiers while yelling praises to Allah. Ft Hood
    =
    An ‘angry’ Muslim-American uses a young girl as hostage to enter a local Jewish center, where he shoots six women, one of whom dies- Seattle, WA
    =
    In an ‘honor’ attack, a Muslim man rapes and beats his estranged wife, leaving her for dead, then savagely murders their four children. Louisville, KY
    =
    A Muslim immigrant goes on a shooting rampage at a mall, targeting people buying Valentine’s Day cards at a gift shop and killing five Salt Lake City.
    =
    A non-Muslim Islamic studies professor is stabbed to death by a Muslim grad student in revenge for ‘persecuted’ Muslims. Binghamton, NY

    IQ3 Moral equivalence shines through again in how he hates America!

  • freeinpa

    “Nope, freeinpa, what I do is to point out in explicit detail how all three of you know nothing about the Black coummunity.
    .
    I also point out in explicit detai, what is wrong with your “theories” about the Black community.
    .
    So, freeinpa, if you have the “cojones”, why don’t you bless us with those “principles” you spoke of that lead you to turn up your nose at Black conservative voters?”
    ==
    No, you have done what you do here send bold face type declaring you the all-being superior with the black community.

    What is truly funny is a dumb a$$ left wing nut job portends to speak for “black conservatives” which tells everyone (in your own words) how little you know.

    But tell us. Is the chart in the link below the result of your handiwork in the black community. I bet it is.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/08/graph_of_the_day_for_august_13.html

  • mfbattle

    newfreedomblog
    “Now here is a thought on tolerence, what if your wife was raped. What if the rapist decided to move in right next door to your home. Do you consider that “tolerant” of the rapist for your wife’s feelings? I didn’t think so.”

    Are you saying that all Muslims are guilty of the crimes of 9/11? Because if a rapist moved next door to me I would be upset (they raped my wife after all), but I would not be upset if a man, who did not rape my wife, moved next door, just as I am not upset at all Muslims because of 9/11.

  • michaelfury

    “You wouldn’t want the Japanese to build a memorial or cultural center at Pearl Harbor.”

    ————————————

    “Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor.”

    - PNAC RAD 2000

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/01/15/new-yorks-bravest/

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Freepizza,
    .
    About fifteen years ago South Boston, which was 96% white, mostly Irish Catholic had the highest percent children born out of wedlock.
    .
    Housing projects and trailer parks is where teens get knocked up if they are white, black, Hispanic or Asian.
    .
    Why?
    .
    If you spend your life that broke, there’s nothing better to do than the girl sitting next to you as broke as you are.

  • rdw56

    Paid very well you should note and to great acclaim. It’s not for nothing CK is regularly listed among the ten most influencial opinion writers in the world while Joe rarely gets a mention. I think CK is wrong here but it’s preposterous for Joe to condescend to anyone let alone Charles. Joe once mused Charles was limited in his ability to judge events in Iraq because he was in a wheelchair. This from a guy who adores FDR. What made his column even more insufferably stupid was the fact the guy in the wheelchair backed the surge while Joe insisted it was doomed to failure based on egregiously bad military strategy and a misunderstanding of the ethnic issues.

    For some strange reason Petraeus didn’t consult with Joe when putting his plan together and didn’t know it was doomed. Who knew?

    Joe is that long time MSM columnist who thinks his opinions are facts and just can’t adjust to search engines. Gone are the days when you could rewrite your own history comfortable no one would remember what you wrote two years ago. Joe sometimes forgets what he wrote two weeks ago and is somewhat shell shocked from the beating the MSM has been taking for so long. He’s been saying goodbye to other vets like Meachum and Evan Thomas and it wasn’t supposed to happen this way. These two should have retired as sages of journalism rather than as hacks who ran Newsweek into the ground with their liberal dribble.

    The fact is Krauthammer has prospered greatly from the emergence of cable and the internet while Klein is getting killed. He is getting killed because he like the other elitists is getting exposed. He wants to be known as an expert on Iraq and the war on terror but his over the top condemnation of the surge proves towering ignorance and a lack of judgement.

  • 53_3

    Weak freeinpa:
    .
    You don’t have the guts to do it, do you.
    .
    Put up or shut up.
    .
    In the meantime, peruse that book. It’s written by a long time member of the Black community here and one of the country’s leading historians.
    .
    You don’t have a snowball’s chance in hedubblehockeysticks of trying to compete with me.
    .
    When you decide to stop being the cowardly race baiter you are, brring it on.
    .
    I’m dying to force you to eat your own sh!t…

  • 53_3

    Oh, and “americanthinker” is hardly unbiased…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “It’s the liberal way. No one gets ahead by lifting anyone up but by pulling down those you disagree.

    JK is the the internet equivalent of Ed Schultz and Keith Olbermann.”
    .
    “Glenn Beck, who repeatedly and angrily tells his alleged persecutors to “leave the families alone,” spent a good chunk of his radio program this morning mocking and attacking the intelligence of President Obama’s 11-year-old daughter, Malia.

    Obama remarked yesterday during his press conference that Malia asked him of the Gulf oil spill: “Did you plug the hole yet, Daddy?” Beck, taking off on this, mockingly affected Malia’s voice, asking “Daddy” why he “hates black people so much.” Then Beck attacked Malia’s intelligence, saying: “That’s the level of their education, that they’re coming to — they’re coming to Daddy and saying, ‘Daddy, did you plug the hole yet?’ ”

    This routine continued for several minutes, as Beck and his co-hosts touched on a variety of topics and laughed the entire time, all of it at the expense of an 11-year-old girl..”
    .
    “…those columnists who have twice as much brains power then you do.
    .
    Krauthammer has an intellect that makes you look like a midget. Yet here you are again trying to marginalize him.
    .
    William Bristol, Glenn Beck, Fred Barns and George Will leave you in the dust in their analysis of current political events.”
    .
    Let me correct you, freeinpa. You made a mistake.
    .
    “”It’s the right wing way. No one gets ahead by lifting anyone up but by pulling down those you disagree.

    3X, Rusty and I are the the internet equivalent of Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh.”
    .
    Now it’s time that you go on a rant saying that going from driving a cab to selling cars is a step downward for me and that commercial real estate is another step down after that and that, for no known reason, you are sure that I am fat just to prove to us again that right wingers have no substance, but, instead, attack people.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Freepizza,
    .
    If you add up all of the White American on White American murders like those at Columbine High School, the Branch Davidians, Oklahoma City, the Unibomber, the Olympic bombing and so on, you’ll see that Muslim on American murder is far, far lower.
    .
    If you count the number of civilians, as Muslims abroad do, killed by accident in American bombings since 9/11, it outnumbers 9/11 more than 10 to 1.
    .
    So, get off your soap box and give it a break.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    3X, 3X, 3X,
    .
    If you consider Krauthammer William Bristol, Glenn Beck and Fred Barns worthy sources of information, you really are skewed to the right.
    .
    Don’t forget that you are far, far to the right of American business owners, average Americans over the age of 65 and even more conservative that most people in your home state of Ohio.
    .
    You are to the far right and refuse to hear anything which disagrees with you.

  • pelhamite1

    I believe Joe is responding to Krauthammer because his piece isn’t quite the knee jerk response of “All Muslims are terrorists” line put fortgh by Newt, Sarah et al. Krauthammer makes what you would think are some key concessions (“that (orthodox) strain represents only a monority of Muslims”), before turning around and suggesting that, even if the current propriators of the Cordoba House mean well, they can’t be trusted in the future (“who is to say that one day this mosque won’t one day hire a terrorist”?). Krauthammer tries to draw parallels with Auschwitz, citing the Pope’s order to a group of nuns to abandon a convent they had established there, because “Auschwitz belongs to the Jews”. And I agreee that Auschwitz should belong to the Jews. But all of New York City south of Canal St. does not belong to the victims. New York City’s downtown needs to go on as a place where people live, work, worship, have dinner and, yes, even (in some cases) go to the topless bars. In other words, a place where life goes on for people of all reasonable faiths. The great irony is that the way to ensure that something like 9/11 does not occur again it will be largely due to Islam finally evolving from a religion with a significant fundamentalist component to a moderate strain of the sort represented by . . . the folks who want to build Cordoba House. But I think Krauthammer’s article is as good a departure point to discuss the issue as any.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    In all fairness, they’re also trying to demonize gays. And the whole modern GOP is built on the Southern Strategy. Resentment is all they got.

  • newfreedomblog

    sartor:
    .
    If you were actually someone worth debating I might reply. But as usual you twist and turn other people’s words to justify what YOU believe to be the truth.
    .
    By the way, I have a suggestion for you. Take a trip over to Afghanistan or even Pakistan. Flip open your best bottle of Jack Daniels, proceed to get drunk. Shout until you lose your voice and proclaim the virtures of America.
    .
    Then we’ll see how long you live beyond the next few hours afterwards.
    .
    If you believe what the Mulsim terrorists who want to build a MOSQUE tell you on their site, I guess you also believe what al-Qaeda also writes on their respective sites too. Just “peace-loving” Muslims. Yes indeedy!!

  • mycophile

    newfreedomblog@ 3.5~

    1) “Now you explain or lie again on what part of “which will include a MOSQUE” do you not understand?
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordoba_House
    .
    Odd, I thought you had objected sometime before to assuming the credibility of wikipedia. Perhaps not. No matter.
    .
    I may have not done my homework, and certainly was not careful enough when I wrote “It is not a mosque” (Should have typed: “Are you sure it is a mosque?”, but your responses to my later such question-form comments in my post suggest that my being more careful would not have prevented you form unjustifiably demeaning me.
    .
    If it is planned to contain a mosque, then we should, and I shall, of course, continue with the assumption that it will not.
    .
    But my writing that it would not did not either ethically or legally, or even colloquially constitute a “lie”, nor an act of hypocrisy. I believed it when I wrote it. I now have more information about that than I did before. Even though I do not at all appreciate your delivery, your response to my report of my belief helped me get that further information. Thank you
    .
    I FEEL that you threw those characterizations at me, not only directly but by placing me under a group label and characterizing that group. (“You people are so easily determined to be not only liars, but out and out hypocrits” (sic) ).
    .
    If you still want to claim that I am part of that group, would you please clarify for me what “You people” are?, so that I may be more likely to be on-topic in my response?
    ‘.
    2) You aked: “what if your wife was raped. What if the rapist decided to move in right next door to your home.
    .
    If I felt that the individuals that had raped my wife were going to be living next door to me, then I would not like it at all. I would either plan and execute similar violation of them (and prepare to meet a legal fate), or else move.
    .
    But if it was the family of the rapist, and they had not yet satisfied me that they were in solidarity with my grief and sense of horror and wrong, I would either plan to rectify that situation, or move.
    .
    Do you feel that the individuals that destroyed the Towers will be at the facility, do you feel that you had family that was raped by them (and I mean that allegorically — I am not trying to confine you to a literal interpretation of your words), and do you feel that the facility site is next door to you?
    .
    Please feel free to compose an allegory more fitting to your perspective in order to anwer me — I am just trying to flesh this out with you further.
    .
    3) You wrote: “Should they want to build this building 2 blocks away . . .one would think this would be a better place to erect this building rather than to place it right next to one of the now most sacred places in this country.”
    .
    Since you define “Ground Zero” as the perimeter of building damage from the incident, does thta mean you would not consider it insensitive to build it 4 blocks away from the Towers site?
    .
    Do you mean that you consider that Ground Zero perimeter to be “one of the now most sacred places in this country”? I was not aware that anyone felt that way. I thought that sacred sites had to do with religious experiences involving Prophets, offspring of gods, etc. To me, it is not, and probably never will be, a sacred site. But if it is to you, I will respect that you feel that way about it.
    .
    4) Now, about those question-forms in my 3.1 (my #3 and #4 there)
    .
    It looks to me that, in response to those questions, you, first of all, did not answer them.
    .
    Next, it appears to me that at least one of the reasons for that was because you did not interpret them in the way I meant them. I will try again:
    .
    #3) are you sure that the “liberals on this site” and Obama “defend” the types of behaviors by Muslims that the Twin Tower destruction was, or any of Islam’s violent or oppressive elements?
    .
    If your answer is “Yes”, I am done with this subject with you for now. If your answer is that it’s proof is to be found in comments on “other sites from liberal leaning individuals, as well as read the words Obama has spoken thus far in his Presidency”, and that those words only place the blame for he 9/11 attacks on America, and not those responsible for planning and executing it, then I must say that I 100% disagree with that assessment, and am willing to leave it at that
    .
    #4) What I meant to ask here was if you felt that someone’s support for a group, because of parts of what that group stands for, is the same as supporting all current and past actions or attitudes of all members of the group (abortion killers and Inquisitors both drew their justifications from Christianity — does that mean that if one defends Christianity, one is defending them?) This was a follow of my question #3, that is, when any “liberals” or Obama defend Islam for their precieved values in it, does that automatically mean they are defending Islams transgressions?’
    .
    However, this is an unnecessary question to answer if you believe that “liberals” and Obama specifically condone the transgressions of some of Islams followers that we are discussing here.
    .
    5) Finally, I hope you have read all of this, carefully enough to understand what I have meant to convey. If you have, then I thank you. I shall be leaving Swampland for a while soon (and you may find that to your liking), but I will first check bak here for a while in case you respond to this
    .
    And i shall return. I hope that, when i do, you will have a better understanding about me than when you penned your 3.5
    .
    Such as what “tilting at windmills” means to me. You may have used that phrase differently than I would. Or maybe you didn’t. If I were to have used it to describe my post to you, it would have meant that I viewed you as a person with attitudes and opinions that nothing on earth was unlikely to effect in the least, no matter how I tried, nor for how long, and yet I was going to try anyway to do so myself.

    .

  • mycophile

    @ my 3.15~
    .
    Whoops, correct that:
    .
    “If it is planned to contain a mosque, then we should, and I shall, of course, continue with the assumption that it WILL (contain a mosque.)”.

  • rdw56

    You’d do much better without the silly and simplistic stereotypes that are so key to liberal self-identity. Smearing Newt as a ‘all muslims are terrorist’ thinker is non-sensical. Rather than demean him, or Palin, you demean yourself.

    This is as good a reason as any why Joe shouldn’t blog. He makes the same stupid comments but more frequently and comes off the clown. Not to be repetitive on this but the charge Krauthammer ‘lacked’ nuance on Iraq because, unlike Joe, Charles was unable to travel there due to his disability is just classic Joe Klein.

    While trying to elevate himself over Charles the 1st reaction to his posting, and it was almost immediate, was from John Podhoretz over at Commentary asking Joe how much he thought FDRs wheelchair limited his ‘nuance’. He was only managing WWII.

    Plus the claim was almost as preposterous as the rantings of Thomas L Friedman and Al Gore make constantly for the great unwashed to cut their energy footprint while they are among the biggest pigs on the planet. Joe attacked Petraeus and the surge and after being humiliated he trashes anothers judgement on Iraq. What’s beyond chuzpa?

    After your cheapshot you make a reasonable response to a reasonable column. I happen to think you’ve nailed it while CK got it wrong. (assuming these actors really are moderate)

  • 53_3

    And, freeinpa, you stupid focker, I see you have no comment whatsoever about a right wing Israeli:
    .
    http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/13/portrait-of-stabbing-suspect-good-guy-or-violent-abusive/
    .
    Or this:
    http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/13/tennessee.obama.plot/index.html
    .
    Or, of the two inmates who happen to be “White Rights” advocates, just like you:
    http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/13/arizona.escapees.reward/index.html
    .
    So, now, you two bit creep, et tu brutus…

  • azmaveth

    Even if some Japanese want to build a gloating monument to their victory at Pearl Harbor, that should be allowed. Let everyone say what he pleases, especially on his own property. That’s the real strength of our democracy, that we progress while promoting freedom.

  • davesulis

    The insistence of building a mosque near ground zero is a clear sign of arrogance, insensitive and ignorance of muslims. I’m atheist btw. How Imam will react if somebody want to build gay bars surround the mosque ???

  • 53_3

    “Moral equivalence shines through again in how he hates America!”
    .
    Bring it to me, freeinpa.
    .
    I want to see those “principles” you have been so cowardly about reavealing.
    .
    Bring it to me, you p!ssant motherfocker…

  • 53_3

    See 7.
    .
    Period.
    .
    You don’t like it, move to a country not protected by our Constitution.
    .
    Iran’s a theocracy, try there…

  • 53_3

    Oh, btw, freeinpa, just a little more sh!t for me to hold your soulless, cowardly nose to:
    .
    Make a point of paying attention to the fact that his dad tried to get him out of the county, paying $3,000 for a tcket home.
    .
    I guess, he’s the type of “American” you are…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “By the way, I have a suggestion for you. Take a trip over to Afghanistan or even Pakistan. Flip open your best bottle of Jack Daniels, proceed to get drunk. Shout until you lose your voice and proclaim the virtures of America.”
    .
    First, I dare you to come to Manhattan flip open your best bottle of Jack Daniels (assuming there is such a thing as good Jack Daniels – one or two Bushmills straight up for me on occasion) get drunk and shout about the virtues of anything and see how many minutes before one of New York’s 25 thousand unionized police officers has you locked up in the drunk tank.
    .
    I’d say, at best, you’d have about twenty minutes before you’d be in the back of the paddy wagon.
    .
    Second, what do Muslims in Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, New Jersey, Staten Island, Long Island, the Bronx and Connecticut have to do with Afghanistan’s, Iraq’s or, for that matter, the government of England?
    .
    Equally, they have nothing to do with them.
    .
    If your great grandparents were German, should your parents and grandparents have had the crap beaten out of them because Hitler was in charge of Germany while your grandparents and great grandparents were in the US?
    .
    There’s one thing that all Muslims in America have in common with one another and are totally unlike those of Afghanistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Indonesia, Turkey or any other Muslim country: they knew that they would choose a country which is not Muslim and will not become Muslim within the next two hundred years (or never at all) and are happy with it anyway.
    .
    So, quit blaming Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, Staten Island and NYC suburbanites for 9/11.
    .
    I hope you don’t blame Northern Irish from NYC’s suburbs for the IRA.
    .
    If you followed your logic you would be holding me responsible for the IRA (even though my family has been in the NYC area for over a century) and Nazi Germany (even though the Germans in my family left decades before WW One).
    .
    Feel free to gulp down Jack Daniels and yell and scream in public and see how fast you get put away anywhere in the world.

  • 53_3

    Patrick, mycophile:
    .
    Read your comments in their entirety and in detail. Your disassembly and parametrization of the pertinent arguments is a work of art.

  • dnharris14

    No way Joe. The Constitution gives freedom of religion, but it does not give freedom to build anything you want anywhere you want. There are things called zoning laws to stop strip clubs next to elementary schools. These zoning laws also cover places of worship. As I am sure you are aware, well maybe not, there are hearings across the country every day regarding whether a place of worship may be built in certain locations. A mosque at Ground Zero seems like a perfect use of a zoning hearing, never mind the fact that one would hope Islam, the religion of peace, would be sensitive enough to not repeat their arrogance of placing the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount. I’ll be for a mosque at Ground Zero when they allow a church or synagogue within earshot of the Kaaba and the Masjid al-Haram mosque. Let them show an inkling of tolerance before we bow down to their desires.

  • dnharris14

    I recall plenty of outrage.

  • abbydelabbey

    All across America (not just NY) large tracts of land are being purchased and huge mosques are being built, even in communities with a small number of Muslims.

    I just would like to know: what is the source for all the money to buy land and build?

  • abbydelabbey

    good point.

  • dnharris14

    Ever hear of a zoning code? Ever hear of a church or synagogue having to go through the zoning process. Ever hear of a church or synagogue being denied the right to build in certain locations. It happens all the time. Freedom of religion is not the freedom to build anything you want anywhere you want. So argument continues…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Albania was the only country which constitutionally was officially atheist.
    .
    Maybe you would have liked Albania under communism.
    .
    Also as an atheist, I like it that we are entitled to sincerity of theology in America as party of our first amendment rights.
    .
    If some look to the sky and to the events of the world and see the work of the Christian Trinity, then they get to build a church. If it is specifically Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, or whatever, they get to build a church for what they believe is the higher power.
    .
    Just as I am happy that I do not have to walk into a church and pretend to pray seeing nothing above but the ceiling, if some see Mohamed as the last of the great profits, then I am happy to let them build an Islamic Center in the Burlington Coat Factory Building not far from the New York Stock Exchange and not far from Ground Zero.
    .
    I do not want to see them coerced into faking a Christian faith.
    .
    You are entitled to your beliefs, build your own house of worship with your own money and atheists as well as people from all other faiths are allowed to think your faith is really weird.
    .
    Out of courtesy, you just don’t come up to people and tell them how weird they are.

  • dnharris14

    “That’s the old Jewish law pertaining to how you deal with a wife you discover isn’t a virgin. Last time I checked, we aren’t scared of Jews because of this.”

    When was the last time there was a documented case of stoning by Jews? 2,000 years ago give or take? When was the last time Muslims used stoning? Last week, give or take?

  • sacredh

    “the Mosque will be located two blocks away from Ground Zero–in a heavily commercial areas filled with office buildings, bars [some topless, if I recall],”

    I have a hard time remembering where the titty bars are too. I usually just follow the well worn paths on the sidewalks.

  • westender3

    “William Kristol, Glenn Beck, Fred Barns and George Will leave you in the dust in their analysis of current political events.”

    I think I just crapped my drawers.This has got to be snark. How can you type this with a straight face and expect to be taken seriously.

  • piper1

    7.2: “Ever hear of a zoning code?”
    .
    Yes.

    “Despite protests, the building of an Islamic cultural center in New York city can now go ahead after a unanimous vote to clear the way for the Islamic site.”
    .
    The zoning board approved it (unanimously for good measure). What else ya got?

  • piper1

    Try doing a little research before spouting off, k? The zoning board already approved the project overwhelmingly 29-1 (my previous post falsely stated the vote was unanimous when it was merely nearly unanimous):
    .
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/26/ground-zero-mosque-overwh_n_589894.html

  • virginiagentleman

    You, of course, have proof to offer for this ridiculous claim?
    .
    Or is this the next step in the “terror baby” story?
    .
    “THEY’RE BUILDING MEGA MOSQUES FOR THE TERROR BABIES!!! RUN, TELL LOUIE GOHMERT!!!

  • virginiagentleman

    Yep, you’re right, 3x, we don’t want to tangle with Krauthammer’s brainpower. Because, after all, he was soooo right about Iraq. Sure showed his brainpower there….

  • 3xfire3

    53,
    .
    “The fruits of your labor, 3xfire3:”
    .
    http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/13/michigan.serial.stabbing.arrest/index.html
    .
    How is it that an Arab stabbing and killing our Black American citizens “the fruit of my labor”? Again you show how totally ignorant and crazy you really are.
    .
    Your crazy comments and race baiting add nothing to the discussions on this blog.
    .
    Since you are so full of irrational hate and can not even discuss any subject with out race baiting or demonizing other people, I have decided not to waste my time replying to you any more.
    .
    Instead I will simply say a pray for you and your family each night and ask God to watch over you.
    .
    Goodbye

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “There are things called zoning laws to stop strip clubs next to elementary schools. These zoning laws also cover places of worship.”
    .
    Will somebody please (especially on the right) take a look at a map?
    .
    http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl
    .
    First, there are multiple houses of worship (all Christian) which pre-date the World Trade Center by over a hundred years.
    .
    Second, if you notice the position of the subways, the path trains (the subway to New Jersey across the Hudson river is how I would explain the Path) and the roads you do not pass Park Row on the way. You have to intentionally turn the other direction to see the Islamic Center.
    .
    Third, also notice the roads. You will not accidentally drive past the Islamic Center on your way to or from Ground Zero. It is closest to City Hall.
    .
    Fourth, notice how tightly packed in those buildings are.Use some imagination and realize that there are coffee shops, restaurants, bars and stores right near Ground Zero. So, on your way to get a sandwich, a coffee, a beer or to go to the store to buy a newspaper you will not pass the Islamic Center.
    .
    So, there is no way it would interfere with anything and no legal way it could get turned down even if it were anywhere near as close as right wingers think it is.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “All across America (not just NY) large tracts of land are being purchased and huge mosques are being built, even in communities with a small number of Muslims.”
    .
    Muslim Americans.
    .
    All across the West and far West Mega Churches are being built nearly all very, very conservative and marching in lockstep with both the political agenda of the largest corporations and the Military Industrial Complex. Should I presume that companies like Blackwater are financing them?

  • sacredh

    It’s hard to imagine people living in America thinking they have the right to worship when they want to and build houses of worship where they want to. A massive nunnery went up less than mile from house It’s beautiful and they’re putting in some impressive ladscaping. It sits on top of a hill and dominates the area. I’ll try to control my fear even though I’m an atheist and I lived here first.

  • sacredh

    Jesus! That post had more errors than a Pittsburgh Pirates game.

  • toby3061

    Reading this column reminded me why I stopped subscribing to Time years ago.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Here’s what I see:
    .
    Most Americans know that it was Bush and both during his regime and prior to it with the Republican congress who opened us up to a huge financial meltdown and Republicans have an election coming.
    .
    Financial reform redoing most of what the Republicans undid and adding derivative regulation was popular.
    .
    Tarp II looks like it saved those two car companies both making Republican obstructionism and the conservative mantra that government is always under all circumstances totally inefficient and the private sector is always and under all circumstances efficient.
    .
    Although supporters of single payer health care were very disappointed but to Obama’s left, the horrors of weeks of waiting to see a doctor, premiums soaring, doctors quitting, companies being driven under due to the cost of HCR, death panels and 16,500 Armed IRS agents never happened despite all of those bogymen the conservatives created, Democrats got something slightly like what the people wanted passed and Republicans have some more egg on their face.
    .
    Despite constantly trying to claim that the constitution places highly specific limitations on government spending and regulation of businesses, it is the Republican backed Arizona immigration law which is starting to lose as unconstitutional.
    .
    So, Republicans need a rallying cry. They need to be furious about Obama’s and Democrats/liberals/progressive’s mistakes.
    .
    Grasping at straws, they attack religion despite the fact that Muslim Americans before 9/11 were more likely to be Republican than Democrats and take one building in NYC to make into an issue.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “How is it that an Arab stabbing and killing our Black American citizens “the fruit of my labor”? Again you show how totally ignorant and crazy you really are.”
    .
    First, he was Israeli, not Arab and Israel is best buddies with the Republic Party.
    .
    Second, it is your propaganda that blacks vote for Democrats to get as much welfare money as possible for themselves and their friends which is how people from Israel are prone to believing that killing black people is good for America.
    .
    If there were a group who wished to grab free money for no reason, then removing them from our country would not be a bad thing.
    .
    However, since the black community is not different than the white community is preferring work whenever possible and anybody who is at all reasonable would never consider homicide a reasonable solution, this is a terrible murderer who belongs in jail.
    .
    If it weren’t for people like you he would have stayed in Israel murdering Palestinians instead.

  • vijju26

    I might be wrong – but some of the guys here who are vehemently denying the inappropriateness of the thing might be Mohhemedans! lolz

    A simple thing – why it can’t be there.
    For Islam – the memorial or mosque or whatevr you call it, is the place where the won! A victory memorial!
    You might be thinking this is a symbol for Diversity – blah blah blah!

    But for the Islamic culture – this is a symbol of their continuing fight against the rest of the world in their quest for the pure world! (Islamic ofcourse!) It’s a rally point! lolz

    Oh btw. Check around the web!
    You don’t see a lot of “We hate Islam” or “We hate Moslems” or Something similar – no one hates them – thats a fact proven in the freedom of the web!

    But you’d see a lot and lot of the “we hate the US” or soemthing of that sort by a bunch of Islamic thugs – trying to scare away people – by hook or by crook!

    Still wanna say a couple of thugs blew down the WTC??

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Still wanna say a couple of thugs blew down the WTC??”
    .
    There are one billion Muslims as in seven human being are Muslim.
    .
    19 Hijacked three airplanes.
    .
    All you need is one person to create a blog and many of them, just like American right wing bloggers, are just bowing hot air.
    .
    There are more than three non-American Muslims for every one American.
    .
    The US is 234 years old.
    .
    Islam is 1,500 years old.
    .
    If any significant percent of them wanted to exterminate us, they would have done so long, long ago.
    .
    They just want a building near City Hall to pray and be involved in ecumenical services.
    .
    The American right wing has nothing positive to say about itself, far fewer negative things to say about Democrats/liberals than can be said about Republicans.
    .
    So, attack a private group buying the Burlington Coat Factory building near City Hall.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “But for the Islamic culture – this is a symbol of their continuing fight against the rest of the world in their quest for the pure world! (Islamic ofcourse!) It’s a rally point! lolz.”
    .
    Do you know anything about Muslims?
    .
    If I were to explain them, I would say they are like Evangelical Christians but nowhere near as annoying.
    .
    They don’t drink. They don’t gamble. They don’t sleep around. Fortunately, unlike evangelicals, they do not try to push their religion on their neighbors in America.
    .
    “but some of the guys here who are vehemently denying the inappropriateness of the thing might be Mohhemedans! lolz”
    .
    No, St. Patrick’s Cathedral is not a Mosque and, you can guess, I am not a Muslim and will never be a Muslim nor an evangelical Christian.
    .
    As far as I know there is only one Muslim who posts here at all and he did not post this time.
    .
    We are Christians, Jews and atheists with one Muslim I know of.
    .
    You Republics had more than half the Muslim vote since evangelical Christians and Muslims are so similar in cultural values, but, desperate for a new bogyman now that it is know HCR does not mean your doctor will murder you at the request of a death panel and there was no reason to believe that Iraq was invaded for any reason other than to get GWB a second term he would have otherwise lost, my boring neighbors are your new bogyman.

  • 3xfire3

    Patrick,
    .
    “How is it that an Arab stabbing and killing our Black American citizens “the fruit of my labor”? Again you show how totally ignorant and crazy you really are.”
    .
    “First, he was Israeli, not Arab and Israel is best buddies with the Republic Party.’
    .
    “If it weren’t for people like you he would have stayed in Israel murdering Palestinians instead.”
    .

    Patrick,
    .
    Do you never ever tire of being WRONG?
    .
    The person doing the stabbing and killing was an Arab [ Palestinian ] with Israeli citizenship.
    .
    You are really a piece of work.

  • manofsan

    Why are all arguments on freedom of religion revolving around acceptance of Islam? What about acceptance by Muslims of freedom of religion for nonMuslims? I’m a nonMuslim atheist, and I’m offended by this constant pandering to Islam, especially when the so-called “moderates” of this religion are conspicuously silent on the rights of other religions persecuted by members of theirs.

    What about the supporters of this Ground Zero mosque coming out and condemning the religious intolerance shown towards nonMuslims living in Muslim-majority countries?

    What about President Obama agreeing to formally declare Saudi Arabia a religiously intolerant country, and revoking tax-free status to any religious organization receiving funds from it or having ties to it?

  • manofsan

    What about Freedom From Religion? Can’t that be protected too?
    An outreach center should be built in a locality which is a heartland of intolerance. The US clearly has far more tolerance than any Muslim-majority country. Therefore it would be more logical to build any outreach center there.

    The legality of the mosque is not the main issue. If the mosque hangs a “Mission Accomplished” banner out in front of it, they have a legal right to do that too, but it won’t make people like them.

    You can’t legislate credibility. The law has no power nor any right to force people to like others. The law can’t force me to like a religion that itself dislikes others.

  • vijju26

    Okay!

    Islam is 1,500 years old.

    Not sure abt 1500 years old! But it sure is less older than the Zorastrians it destroyed(the faith which existed in iran before islam – sodidrably much civilized than any others at the time!)! Or less older than the others who died in the Moslem conquests! Any idea in the history of MiddleEast? How vast civilizations were destroyed and replaced by the venerable(?) islam? in the name of a God/Religion pushing whole masses of population to inhuman middle age beliefs?

    *If I were to explain them, I would say they are like Evangelical Christians but nowhere near as annoying.*

    Evangelical Christians?
    Hmm – to tell the truth – evangelical christians don’t tell people of other religion to convert or pay taxes to practice their own religions! nor do they kill innocent people in the modern age to enforce their will! They atleast don’t pretend to be peace loving and being forced to make wars on other faiths! lolz

    To tell you a funny joke:
    Pakistanis consider the US to be an enemy – not the taliban! The taliban are the brotherhood – who are conducting a jihad (holy one too)!

    There might be a couple of Mohemmadans who mgiht not be fanatical or the radical types! But the current issue – the one who’s building the thing is not that type!

    Believe me when i say – the peace-loving islamists don’t build mosques – most of them – they worship the graves of saints or sing in shrines similar to SaintPatrciks!

    They’d not have made such a fuss to build it there. They’re not there to commemorate the dead! lolz No! they want to build it to show islam to the world! the greatness of islam which shook the US and the kafir NYites!

  • 3xfire3

    freeinpa,
    .
    If you really want proof of how really DUMB Patrick and IQ35 are read post 3.21
    .
    Also
    .
    “And, freeinpa, you stupid focker, I see you have no comment whatsoever about a right wing Israeli:”
    .
    “Or this:
    , of the two inmates who happen to be “White Rights” advocates, just like you:”
    .

    “Oh, btw, freeinpa, just a little more sh!t for me to hold your soulless, cowardly nose to:”
    .
    “Make a point of paying attention to the fact that his dad tried to get him out of the county, paying $3,000 for a tcket home.”
    .
    freeinpa guess what. The guy doing the stabbing is an Arab with Israeli citizenship and one of the two escaped inmates is Hispanic.
    .
    As usual Patrick and IQ35 are ridiculously wrong and have to eat their words again. Too bad. Poor Race Baiter and Ignorant Kid.
    .
    IQ35 and Patrick remind me a lot of two of the three stogies. They really should go on the road with their comedy act of ignorance. They really make me laugh so hard it hurts.
    .

  • 3xfire3

    rdw56,
    .
    Very Excellent Post.
    .
    “Joe the truth will set you free”, but not soon enough.

  • eddieknoll

    Dear Mr Klein,

    We got off on a bad foot, and that is my fault. Let me first apologize for stooping to name calling just because I don’t like your ideas. That was wrong of me and I sincerely apologize.

    Now, as to intolerance. Mr. Klein, how many churches or synagogues do you suppose there are in Saudi Arabia? Our President bows to their King and makes the Jewish Prime Minister walk out of the White House alone. How many Christian schools do you think are in modern Turkey? Did you know that stoning is still an acceptable punishment in Iran?

    And Mr. Klein, while we’re speaking of tolerance, may I assume you would support a German Cultural Center at Auschwitz?

  • Elizabeth Kaplan

    I support the building of the mosque, as I support religious freedom across the country, but the above comment is just plain stupid.

    “Much more prevalent?” Your ancient Jewish law example is terrible and totally unnecessary to begin with, but seriously, name one example of this law being upheld anywhere in the world. Anywhere. For Muslim law to be “much more prevalent” assumes that other religions like Judaism and Christianity still hold these archaic practices at all.

    The mosque should be built wherever they want to build it, but let’s not start on revisionist history or attempts at moral equivalency when it isn’t legitimate in the least.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “I’m a nonMuslim atheist”
    .
    I am also an atheist, but, just as it would be pathetic and moronic for somebody to say to you, “oh, manofsan, you are an atheist. Then you MUST believe in everything Patrick Sartor believes” equating the royal family of Saudi Arabia with computer programmers, stock brokers, convenience store owners and coffee shop workers is unbelievably absurd.
    .
    “What about the supporters of this Ground Zero mosque coming out and condemning the religious intolerance shown towards nonMuslims living in Muslim-majority countries?”
    .
    That would be like asking me to apologize for Joseph Stalin since he was an atheist or for the Pope and Lutheran leaders to apologize for Nazis since the overwhelming majority of Nazi Germany was practicing either the Catholic or the Lutheran faith.
    .
    “What about President Obama agreeing to formally declare Saudi Arabia a religiously intolerant country, and revoking tax-free status to any religious organization receiving funds from it or having ties to it?”
    .
    If you are willing to pay $20 a gallon for gasoline, then that would be a good idea, but, until we have alternative energy ready to take over, as it could with modern technology with appropriate government incentives 75% to 90% of our energy needs.
    .
    It comes down to this: I do not vote for the Royal family of Saudi Arabia. I have no say over them. I have no say over any leader of any Muslim country anywhere in the World.
    .
    By contrast, I do vote for the mayor of New York, the City Council, the Governor of New York, a member of the state house of New York as well as for a congressman, two Senators and the President. So, I am concerned with if the United States is morally lower or as morally low as Saudi Arabia or not.
    .
    My vote goes for being superior to Saudi Arabia and allowing the Muslims a place near City Hall in a former Burlington Coat Factory Building to do what they like with it and like that they promise that their goal is to create an interfaith dialog.
    .
    Why would you want the US to become a Christian version of Saudi Arabia banning non-Christian houses of worship if you are an atheist?
    .
    As an atheist, I like it when all of the religions leave all of the other religions and atheists alone and do not discriminate against one another nor discriminate against me.
    .
    In NYC, you do not talk about your religion unless asked or when at your house of worship and/or their related events.
    .
    With me being an atheist, there are two groups of people: those who do not know that I am an atheist and those who could hardly care less even if I do tell them this.
    .
    I think Muslims who know that America will not become a Muslim country and do not wish to make it so deserve the same treatment that I get: fair and equal treatment.

    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Hmm – to tell the truth – evangelical christians don’t tell people of other religion to convert or pay taxes to practice their own religions! nor do they kill innocent people in the modern age to enforce their will! They atleast don’t pretend to be peace loving and being forced to make wars on other faiths! lolz”
    .
    I am telling you about the Muslims who just served me a coffee.
    .
    Get served a coffee by an evangelical Christian and he will started telling you “Jesus loves you”.
    .
    “Believe me when i say – the peace-loving islamists don’t build mosques – most of them – they worship the graves of saints or sing in shrines similar to SaintPatrciks!”
    .
    What is a shrine to a Muslim saint called?
    .
    A mosque.
    .
    So keeping that in mind your sentence would read, “Believe me when i say – the peace-loving islamists don’t build mosques – most of them – they worship the graves of saints or sing in Mosques similar to SaintPatrciks!”
    .
    So they sing songs in Mosques but don’t build any Mosques?
    .
    “There might be a couple of Mohemmadans who mgiht not be fanatical or the radical types! But the current issue – the one who’s building the thing is not that type!”
    .
    Really?
    .
    Let’s see what they have to say:
    .
    “August 4, 2010 – Message from Daisy Khan at Jewish Support Rally for Park51

    On behalf of Imam Feisal and the entire Park51 community, we express our heartfelt appreciation for the gestures of goodwill and support from our Jewish friends and colleagues.

    This has touched me personally and has been deeply meaningful to all of us that have been engaged in responding to the misrepresentation in some sectors regarding the proposed community center in lower Manhattan.

    Your support is a reflection of the great history of mutual cooperation and understanding that Jewish and Muslim civilizations have shared in the past, and remains a testament to the enduring success of our continuing dialogue and dedication to upholding religious freedom, tolerance and cooperation among us all as Americans.

    This outpouring of support today has strengthened our commitment to working with our Jewish brothers and sisters. Bridging the Jewish and Muslim communities is the task of this generation and the show of support today is a monumental step towards that direction.

    We would like to thank our supporters, Mayor Bloomberg, President Boro Scott Stringer and the many public officials who have stood strong with us and to the various Jewish leaders; Thank you Rabbi Irwin Kula, Rabbi Arthur Schneier, Rabbi Mark Schneier, Rabbi David Rosen, Rabbi Bob Kaplan, Rabbi Joy Levitt, Rabbi Landau, Rabbi Mark Paley, Rabbi Gerome Davidson, Rabbi Rolando Matalon, Friends of Arava Institute, David Harris of the AJC, Ron Ron Soloway of UJA-Federation, J Street,Rabbi Richard Jacobs with the Westchester Reform Temple, and The Union for Reform Judaism and the many other individuals who have stood up for the highest ideals of all religions – justice, compassion and equality. I end with the greeting of Salam and Shalom. Thank you. ”
    .
    This is militant Islam?
    .
    http://www.cordobainitiative.org/
    .
    Short of converting to Judaism, I can not see a friendlier statement to Jews.
    .
    “They’d not have made such a fuss to build it there. They’re not there to commemorate the dead! lolz No! they want to build it to show islam to the world! the greatness of islam which shook the US and the kafir NYites!”
    .
    What deranged source told you this bulls hit?
    .
    Feisal, BTW is from the exotic foreign land called Brooklyn.
    .
    They don’t have stonings in Brooklyn.

  • 53_3

    Don’t pray for me, pray for yourself. On a number of fronts.
    .
    BTW, you didn’t peruse those books, did you?
    .
    I’m guessing not…

  • 53_3

    You are talking about intolerance in other countries.
    .
    And I remember Bush barfing at a major Japanese diplomatic function. Was that better behavior?
    .
    So selective.
    .
    Of course, then, there is that teensy weensy minor little detail that keeps people like you from demagauging on any meaningful level.
    .
    Nevermind. Too unimportant. It’s just the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America is all…

  • yonsolomonlee

    How does writing like this get a direct link on google? To comment any further would lower me to the level of high school bathroom scribble.

  • dankaduna

    Another distorted view of the world as seen through the Klein bottle.

    Liberals who don’t give a hoot about religious freedom and tolerance except when the religion is anti-American can yelp all they want to about Constitutional protections, but it doesn’t change the fact that the majority of Americans do not want and are strongly opposed to this proposed mosque.

    Therefore, building the mosque in it’s proposed location as an outreach to cultural tolerance is a self-defeating proposition since all it will accomplish is to incite greater anger and intolerance. The mosque will become a target for violence against it, and incite greater ire against rather than tolerance for Muslims.

    There are reasonable restraints on Constitutional priviledges.You can’t shout “fire” in a crowded theater, and school prayer is prohibited in public schools.

    The building of the mosque can and should be denied in the best interest of public safety and convenience.

    Use eminent domain laws to seize the property. Give the Imam a full fair market refund of his purchase price and a permit to build his mosque anywhere else that is not within the former shadow of the World Trade Center.

  • eddieknoll

    Dear 53,

    “Nevermind. Too unimportant. It’s just the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America is all…”

    I don’t recall saying they could not build the mosque at that location, if I did that was incorrect. The fact is they should not as a simple matter of taste and fairness to the @ 3000 people who were killed by their Muslim brothers on 09/11/2001. The Muslim killers of 9/11 were not on the fringe of their religion, they are the mainstream doing what the Quran instructs them to do.

  • 53_3

    “The Muslim killers of 9/11 were not on the fringe of their religion, they are the mainstream doing what the Quran instructs them to do.”
    .
    No, it is your opinion that they are not “on the fringe”.
    .
    You are trying to bring religious bigotry into the equation.
    .
    Therefore, again, I point to that teensy weensy detail. Our forefathers were astute, and realized that we would only become a bastion of freedom if demagogues were proscribed by the rule of law from any attempts to impose pogroms on others.
    .
    Handily, as they did in 1787, they proved their mettle in 2010…

  • malvenue

    Joe Klein spits on the graves of all the Americans who died in 9/11. What a surprise.

    Not.

  • 53_3

    When you read these books about the Black community in Seattle, the community I am most familiar with, then you can come talk to me.
    .
    Here is the link again:
    http://174.36.183.44/~quintard/forging-black-community-history-seattles-central-district-1870-through-civil-rights-era
    .
    Keep in mind that Quintard Taylor has been a part of the Black community here and is one of the country’s leading historians.
    .
    I’m challenging you to read it or, at the very least, acknowledge it, since my 40 years of experience in the very same community is not enough.
    .
    Just like I told freeinpa yesterday:
    .
    Put up or shut up. Read the book, or tell me why you refuse.
    .
    Do you have the guts, or as Sarah the Slut puts it, the cojones?
    .
    jeopardy.wav
    jeopardy.wav
    jeopardy.wav

  • eddieknoll

    Dear 53,
    .

    “You are trying to bring religious bigotry into the equation.”
    .
    We will never agree, and that’s okay. I just think it amusing that your side on the left considers “religious bigotry” perfectly acceptable against Jews and Christians”…
    .
    BTW, I’m Agnostic…
    .
    Happy Weekend!

  • http://markomd.wordpress.com markomd

    I am Ba’al Teshuvah and have utter contempt for Radical Islam. However, Cordoba House is slated to become a Muslim Community Center with a mosque for prayer.

    They own the land. Their request falls well within the laws of the State of New York.

    The United States Constitution guarantees “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

    About the only legitimate criticism I can offer is that the siting of Cordoba House may be in poor taste.

    Built it, and let it be a celebration of the freedom of religious worship THAT ONLY THE UNITED STATES GUARANTEES BY LAW.

    Let it fly in the face of the Bin Ladens of this world. We have what you do not have, Osama, what you do not want, and what you could not have even if you wanted it.

    You cannot terrify us any more! Let freedom ring!

  • earljr1

    patrick describes HCR as though it were already implemented and fully functional…but here is a news flash..it is not. As a practitioner in this industry, I can tell you there are MANY uncertainties that await this bills implementation. A fairly large number of physicians are indicating that they will accept NO new medicare patients as a sign of protest and if you think this is not going to be a problem, then you are living in a dream world. Wait times WILL increase, precipitously, as will scheduling routine surgery. For new patients, even finding a doctor to treat you can become problematic. Your insurance premiums are already going up, with even more dramatic increases to follow. Our lawyers are telling us that managing this program will become a bureaucratic ightmare of unbelievable proportions. So, no, I would NOT be celebrating HCR just yet, what you get may be quite contrary to your expectations.

  • http://gonorthyoungman.wordpress.com ms-in-nyc

    I couldn’t agree more, although I think Krauthammer’s argument falls apart even before you get to the establishment clause, etc. – whatever their intrinsic merits, the analogies he draws on just aren’t relevant to NYC. It’s a unique place, and what is appropriate for a rural National Park or a Polish town isn’t necessarily so in Lower Manhattan. I tried to get to the heart of that issue here:

    http://gonorthyoungman.wordpress.com/2010/08/14/mosque-controversy/

  • pittsburghpoet

    “How many Christian schools do you think are in modern Turkey?”

    Google is your friend. :-)

  • 53_3

    Your quote, not mine, eddieknoll.
    .
    I didn’t say those words. You did…

  • nocturnalreader

    Never in my wildest dream did I think I could agree with you on anything. However, I realize it depends wholly on the nature of the topic. I have to say I agree with your comment here..mostly. I read another of your comments and I am simply amazed at your reasoning ability and skills. Anyway, I agree with Obama and those who feel they have that right in principle only. Only because the Law allows it. It is legal. I don’t like the fact that some people chose to be with people of the same sex. I believe it is unnatural. But, they have that right. And I would not want anybody to tell me I cannot date a skinny woman, or a fat woman, or a young or old woman, because that is my right to chose who I want to be with just like those people have that right. I would fight for them to keep it. Off topic but it explains why I think they have the right. On the other hand, like i pointed in another discussion, just because you have a right to do something does not mean you should do it; neither does it mean you will not reap the consequences of your action. I drew a similar example. Supposing you have a neighbor whose some has been trying to date your daughter for years and has been soundly rejected. He then takes his nice car his father bought him and mows down your daughter, your son and their friends and kill them all. In the process he dies. Now you have to live with that, knowing the father never tried to stop his son and never apologized. But he chose to fix the car up and paint it in bright color and park it right where you can see it everyday; in fact it parked next to your driveway. It is his right, but should he really rub it in face knowing his son basically killed himself just to kill that girl who rejected him. That is how I feel about this situation. I say, if they reject the violence so much, how come they are not all over the propaganda media and on MSNBC, decrying and rejecting these violent acts? Let them come out in full force and show the world they “refudiate” these vile terrorist acts in the name of Allah! I want to hear it. Every sermon at the mosques should begin with dis associating themselves from these people.

  • spk2moi

    I used to love reading Klein. Now everything is super, uber political, even extreme. In this case, it turns into name-calling. Perhaps it’s time for retirement. There are multiple opinions on every topic, and the liberals’ isn’t necessary the most reasonable, so I would hope you and other main stream liberals could refrain from insulting everyone that disagrees with you.

  • nocturnalreader

    Krauthammer, Glenn Beck? How did you manage to leave out Sarah Palin, Sue Lowden, Bachman, Sharon Angle, Breightbart, Hanity? You are truly a work!

  • 53_3

    You didn’t notice the right wing insults?
    .
    Hmmm. A case of selective memory perhaps…

  • 53_3

    Spoken like a true American. And you even acknowledge the propriety issue too…

  • vicgilroy

    The Presidents supporters can spin the issue anyway they like. Its the location I repeat “its the location” that is the issue.

    I CAN’T WAIT FOR NOVEMBER!!!!

    Maybe POTUS will listen then.

    From a Hispanic Republican

  • jackdavis1

    The Muslims behind this “mosque business” are either horrifically insensitive or spiritually complicit in the 9/11 attacks.

    I suspect it’s a little of both, and now President Obama has thrown in his lot with them.

    This has NOTHING to do with “religious freedom.” It has EVERYTHING to do with sensitivity, respect and good faith.

    The Muslims pushing this mosque project, AND President Obama, are horrifically insensitive, they totally lack respect of others and are acting wholly in bad faith.

  • eddieknoll

    Dear 53,

    “I didn’t say those words. You did…”

    You clearly said:

    “No, it is your opinion that they are not “on the fringe”.
    .
    You are trying to bring religious bigotry into the equation.”

    It has been nice chatting 53. I have enjoyed this discussion. We’ll speak again I’m sure the next time Mr. Klein posts another of his Leftist Bables. Let me leave you with this thought. Liberals use the 1st Amendment when it suits them. When it doesn’t, like with the Conferdate Flag or Trent Lott, the right of speach becomes secondary to their agenda. Hell Bill Clinton all but endorsed the KKK when Robert KKK Byrd passed.

  • shsinger

    How pathetically sad that after the Holocaust in Europe, the interment of Japanese Americans during WWII and our disgraceful past history against blacks here that there are Americans who have the audacity to hold themselves out as patriots and defenders of constitutional rights and civil liberties while at the same time raising the mantra of hate and persecution against yet another minority group. It is hate mongers like this that present the greatest threat to our democracy and principles – not law abiding citizens who happen to practice the same religion as some fanatics and psychopaths. The Catholic Church has a lengthy history of pedophile priests that routinely were protected by the Church despite despicable acts against children. Yet, we don’t here any demands for shuttering those churches or preventing them from building in communities where there are children.

  • isnrblog

    You’re an idiot Klien.

  • 53_3

    Good way to loose an argument, eddieknoll. Your type is not new to me. Even the ridiculous references to Clinton and Byrd, which I won’t bother with right now.
    .
    Try not to leave such a self-incriminating trail behind you. In your honor, just so you can see clearly, I’ve bolded the part of your own statement I referred to:
    .
    “The Muslim killers of 9/11 were not on the fringe of their religion, they are the mainstream doing what the Quran instructs them to do.”
    .
    A word of warning:
    You had better come prepared. And next time?
    .
    You’ll find it very difficult to avoid walking into walls.
    .
    Just ask freeinpa…

  • pargryne

    As I have commented elsewhere:

    “The POTUS continues to try to ignore the fact that Islam is more than a religion, it is an entire way of life. As such, it aims to supplant every other way of life on the planet, and there is more than enough evidence that its more extreme sects do *not* respect any other religion. The Ground Zero Islamic Center, including its mosque, will continue to be resisted, even if it is built, and those who resist it are by no means racist, they are merely exercising their right to self-defense. By endorsing the intrusion of an alien culture in one of our most important cities, the POTUS is demonstrating his dislike, if not hatred, of American culture. I guess he is only American by birth, not by choice.”

    Joe, if it’s wrong to conflate the differences between religion and ethnicity, then why are all criticisms of Islam met with Liberals yelling racist (for the record, Islam is not a race) ???

  • 3xfire3

    shsinger,
    .
    “How pathetically sad that after the Holocaust in Europe, the interment of Japanese Americans during WWII and our disgraceful past history against blacks here that there are Americans who have the audacity to hold themselves out as patriots and defenders of constitutional rights and civil liberties while at the same time raising the mantra of hate and persecution against yet another minority group. It is hate mongers like this that present the greatest threat to our democracy and principles.”
    .
    Let’s Make Sure I Have Your Post Correct.
    .
    The 61% of New York State Citizens and the 70% of American Citizens who believe it is insensitive to build an Islamic Mosque close to the Ground Zero location are:
    .
    1. Raising the Mantra of Hate.
    .
    2. Persecuting Another Minority.
    .
    3. Are Hate Mongers
    .
    4. Present a great danger to our Democracy and Principals.
    .
    5. Also we have a long history of persecuting minorities in this country.
    .
    6. And it is Pathetically Sad the we the Citizens of the USA have done all of the above.
    .
    Did I miss anything?
    .
    Of course the 21% of our citizens who are for the Mosque location near Ground Zero which matches the number of our citizens who claim to be liberals is only a coincidence.
    .
    The other 9% have no opinion so I guess that makes them OK.
    .
    I’m getting a little bit Nauseous listening to all the liberals wrapping themselves up in the American flag, claiming to be strict interpreters of our Constitution, our Bill of Rights and Freedom of Religion.
    .
    You are the same individuals that a week ago had bought into Obama’s idea that the Constitution was a living document and should be interpreted differently over time.
    .
    That you now come out with all this “Horse Sh*t” trying to be holier than though, when you usually show more hate towards our country than love, is rather sickening.
    .
    The USA is a Democracy and we are allowed to have different views and that not a sin. You guys and gals do it all the time.
    .
    You Liberals need to get off your Soap Boxes and understand the basic elements of our Democracy. We are allowed to have different views of any subject.
    .
    Whether this mosque gets built here or not is not something any of us can control but we are entitled to our own opinions.
    .
    Shsinger, I don’t mean to come down so hard on you personally but the garbage being spewed by Liberals on this site about how bad everybody is, who doesn’t believe as they do, and those non believers should be demonized is a little too much to take.
    .
    Add the information from my comments to your knowledge base and try to come up with a more honorable understanding of the vast majority of your fellow American citizens and do not Demonize them. That is truly Un-American.

    .

  • 3xfire3

    dankaduna,
    .
    Good Post.
    .
    Your analysis is 100% correct. Why can’t Liberals understand something so simple and obvious?

  • gregbuls

    The founders had no reason to consider Islam when the first amendment was written. If it was prevalent in their world and manifested in violence as it does today, they probably would have excluded Muslims from first amendment protection. A hard thought, but true.

    They did consider insurrection, and the US has laws against advocating the overthrow of civilian government.
    Islam specifically denounces civilian authority, it does not come from God. Who are we to order our own lives when Allah has laid it all out for us? The religion specifically advocates the overthrow of civilian government through Jihad. If a Christian ‘church’ did the same, they’d be behind bars.

  • 78212mvd

    In 2008, Joe Klein’s Messiah, Candidate Obama, bravely told us “… we need to tell the American people what they need to hear”. This uncanny ability to know what the little people “need to hear”, vividly illustrates the disdain he and fellow members of the minority Ruling Class hold for the opinions of the majority Country Class.

    Thankfully, the Internet has allowed the Country Class to finally understand the Democrats’ drive to western European-style democrat socialism, complete with its massive importation of non-Caucasions, and to see through the propaganda smog pumped out by Ruling Class shills like Joe Klein and his fellow Journolist suckups.

    As they say when the music stops, “the jig is up”.

    Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/08/14/obamas-brave-stand/comment-page-3/#comments#ixzz0wnZ3pnlh

  • http://www.rabbijacobs.com rabbijacobs

    People wrongly laud Mr. Obama as having the right to be ‘inclusive,’ of Islamic ‘culture,’ because he was raised with them. “Unlike many Americans,” you read in the media, and in blogs, “Mr. Obama actually lived overseas. And he is perfectly fit to know how wonderful and decent Muslims can be.”

    There is no larger a bunch of garbage circulating in the media and society today.

    As hundreds of thousands of other Americans, I had lived in Israel for a couple of decades. Don’t tell us about Muslims. And don’t tell my son, who lived in Muslim-full, Brussels for many years about Muslims.

    They have one goal, and one goal only, for building that mosque. They want a foothold in Manhattan. And anyone who believes it won’t be used for spreading hate and violence against our society is ignoring what they’ve done all over Europe and Indonesia.

    Fifteen stories, indeed. What is the New York Police force going to do when they’ve got tens of thousands of these Islamic hoodlums roaming the streets at their conventions.

    Believe us, they will not be allowing FBI or security monitoring of their activities. And, yes, there is no mistake about it. They will be using that mosque as a center for terror. Just ask the Germans, who closed one, today, for that very same reason.

  • mattgordonmd

    Aren’t people tiring of all the faux outrage over the new location of the Cordoba Center? Interesting that there was no attention being paid to this until Pamela Geller, the loony bikini-wearing blogger, started harping on it incessantly. Her credibility went down the drain after writing that President Obama’s father was Malcolm X. If Mayor Bloomberg supports the present location, then that indicates that New Yorkers aren’t the ones whining about it.

  • jamesaa3501

    Here’s another guy with a good opinion on the subject – intolerance is not in the best interests of our national security – this is one of those cases where doing what’s right is also doing what’s in the interest of national security..

    http://www.stuckinutah.com/2010/08/few-points-to-consider-regarding-ground.html

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