Obama’s Silence on Cordoba House

Maybe the White House has stayed away because an affirmative or a negative nod on Cordoba house from the President of the United States of America would cross a line called separation pf church and state.

As Ben Smith notes, this kind of “teachable moment” is right up Obama’s alley
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Right, because those always go over well, don’t they? When I think of the high points of Obama’s administration, “teachable moments” like Rev. Wright, Shirley Sherrod, and the beer summit just don’t pan out well. The press obsesses for days on end, to the distraction of real issues, and the public doesn’t seem to care.
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Don’t get me wrong: Obama has the ability to be persuasive in such moments — the “More Perfect Union” speech will remain a classic in campaign speeches, akin to Kennedy’s speech to the Baptist ministers in Houston — but we as a nation don’t seem to have the smarts to follow along. The moment might be teachable, but we aren’t.
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We tend to prefer unteachable moments. Which is why the press is fixated on Caribou Barbie’s every word and deed.

I agree Kevin.

The President is right to leave this to New Yorkers and let Palin and Gingrich (who may have his own problems today) talk and tweet to their hearts content. There is no need for him to issue any statement. It always bothers me to see posts where someone tries to press Obama to speak on every issue so that they can criticise his response.

Should the President comment on the flight attendant’s activities yesterday???? You know, about anger management!

3xfire3 asked me on We Need More Money (August 10), what I thought about most liberals on swampland and how they reacted to those apposed to the location of the Moslem building 2 blocks from Ground Zero. 3xfire3 has not yet indicated he saw my answer, so now I appropriately bring it to the fore.
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What I did not say then, and will now say, especially after reading some more comments about it on today’s Morning Must Reads, is that I find out-of-control and only-making-it-worse tone and content from both “liberals” and “conservatives” (if those terms mean anything at all in this arena)
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Here is the post (with two edits) :
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I have not paid much attention to what Swamplanders have written about the “Moslem building 2 blocks from Ground Zero.”, and I don’t feel I can spend the time to score for that body of work. However, I have seen various emails decrying it, some defending it, and now your 11 and Paul Dirks’s 11.1
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In that context, I will share some thoughts:
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I have scratched and scratched and scratched my head over this one.
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I think that Dirks is correct that it is not OK for the majority to trample a Constitutional right.
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I personally feel that government should stay COMPLETELY out of the religion realm –and that would include NO TAX BREAKS for “churches”, no “In God We Trust” on the money that, although private-banker issued, is authorized by the government, no government religious holidays, and no zoning change or variance requests accepted. But, in our supposedly “Capitalist” economic system, our government has had their hands in our economic system for a very long time, with tax breaks, subsidies, grants, no-bid contracts — corporate handouts and partnerships of all kinds — and the vast majority of voters must think that’s great, so the government meddling in religion is maybe not so egregious, after all. I mean, isn’t the “freedom” to practice “capitalism” as nearly sacrosant as the “freedom” to practice “religion”?
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I do worry about how, in parts of the world where Muslim populations have gotten to be a great enough percentage of the population, that Sharia Law becomes practiced without any ability to address its practices which I find to be abhorrently egregious affronts to human dignity and the evolution of human decency. While I am not an expert on it, and, therefore, there may be parts of it which I would find admirable, the parts about how women can be (and are) treated by men has absolutely no justification to me. Arguments about other people’s “culture” being none of my business because I don’t walk in their shoes, and the arguments about the wrong of imposing “western” ways on other countries don’t convince me otherwise (even though I am a person who strongly criticizes America for spreading English and McDonalds and the “green revolution”, a.k.a. chemical poisons and unsustainable fertilization, across the globe, commandeering the labor forces and resources of others for our out-of-balance consumptive lifestyles, and, in the process, supplanting regional ecosystems and food systems with our own mechanized model, and with our dopamine-response-system-stimulating,consumptive, glittering, titillating lifestyles.) The arguments about respecting other people’s cultures, if valid when it comes to the treatment of fellow human beings, would have been valid arguments against banning slavery, and they were not. They still are not valid arguments for treating women like possessions, and physically and emotionally abusing them for the sick pleasures of men.
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But I would like to count on other mechanisms in our country to prevent Sharia Law from ever being allowed to be practiced here. I worry that they may not be as reliable, however, as they once were. Despite my criticisms of how the English language mutilates one’s perception of the nature of existence (mainly the subject/object framework), it still baffles me to hear that our schools no longer require English fluency. Is that true? Is it true that schools are now required to also teach in Spanish and whatever that colorful American Black slang is called? Where does a trend like that end? Somebody help me!!
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I still would like to count on American Constitutional, and other legal, mechanisms to be able to allow, say, in this case, Muslims to worship freely, IN PRIVATE, to build whatever church, in whatever place, that they can afford to, that any other religious sect would be allowed to do, and yet also to be restrained, just as any other persons or religious groups, from violating anyone’s constitutional and human rights .
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Therein lies the rub, I think. I believe the key lies in those rights must be universally respected, defended, and practiced. I strongly suspect that religious groups of many denominations have not been, and are not now, adhering to them, and getting away with it (Preistly pedophilia, anyone? But that is but one mere example.) If “Christians” want to see greater restrictions, less government favor/accommodation, and/or a more watchful eye on “Muslims”, they had better volunteer for the same, and abandon the “holier than thou “-equals-”special privileges, “we are the real America” attitude. For instance, how can anyone demand that they be allowed to school their children in the way they choose (in private schools, in their own “language”) and yet not allow others to do the same.
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Then there is the issue of “sensitivity” to the fact that the World Trade Towers were allegedly blown up by Muslims who hate America. Listen, if building a mosque 2 blocks away is insensitive, and if having a memorial included in it is considered disingenuous, it is just as so ANYWHERE in the USA. Was not the attack allegedly on a SYMBOL of the entire USA, especially if they include any memorial to the Trade Towers’ dead? Are the objectors to this mosque also objecting to new mosques anywhere in the USA? If so, , refer to the preceding paragraph.

Appreciate the thoughts (not speaking for 3x, who might like them less.)
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I keep hearing from RW’ers that Muslims have some conspiracy to impose Sharia law on unsuspecting westerners. How many places in the world is Sharria law praticed, and is there an example of a historically non-Muslim country upon which Sharia has been imposed by migrating Muslims? Anything even close to this?

What does Obama have to say about Greg Gutfeld opening a homosexual bar next door to the Cordoba Center in Manhattan? http://www.dailygut.com/?i=4696

What does Obama’s base (i.e., the Washington/New York/American/Arab press corps, the pagans, the atheists, the Marxists, the socialists, the tree huggers, the earth worshippers, the flag burners, the draft dodgers, the America haters, the al Qaeda lovers, the feminists (hahahahaha!), the race baiters, the race hustlers and the fundamentalist homosexualists) have to say about Gutfeld opening a gay bar for Muslim homosexuals next door to the Cordoba House?

Regardless of whether or not I am in any of those categories, what I have to say is: What’s it to you?
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Explain to me why the question even matters, aside from questions about any gay bar anywhere, or anywhere that Muslims might go to, or any gay bar even owned and run by Muslims anywhere in the US?
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Could it be that Gutfield is being a shrewd businessman, and wouldn’t that make him god-like in your world view?

70north~

GOOD questions. I don’t know the answers, and I hope someone who has the verificable data to answer them does
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But, in the meantime, I found that I had saved the best example of the kind of extreme fear-monger emails on this subject I have seen. I have posted the whole thing, for reference and for those who can dispute any of it with data to do so, but, so that you don’t have to read the whole thing to get to the specific question you asked, I first report what might most directly address your questions (but In my ignorance, I don’t know which of these countries qualify as “historically non-Muslim (with) Sharia imposed by migrating Muslims”)
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FIrst, my excerpts:
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Dr. Peter Hammond’s, in his book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat, is reported to :
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1) report that in “France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts, nor schools, nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death.”
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2) report that Albania, Malaysia, Qatar, and Sudan “experience unfettered . . . use of Sharia Law as a weapon”.
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3) infer that Bangladesh, Egypt,Gaza, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Morocco , Pakistan , Palestine, Syria, Tajikistan,Turkey, and the United Arab Emirates do also even more so
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and 4) report that in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia , Somalia , and Yemen it reaches such a fever pitch that “the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.”

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and now, here is the whole email (note it says “adapted”), :
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Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond’s book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat

Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.

Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.

Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges.

When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well..

Here’s how it works:

As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:

United States — Muslim 0..6%
Australia — Muslim 1.5%
Canada — Muslim 1.9%
China — Muslim 1.8%
Italy — Muslim 1.5%
Norway — Muslim 1.8%

At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs.
This is happening in:

Denmark — Muslim 2%
Germany — Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom — Muslim 2.7%
Spain — Muslim 4%
Thailand — Muslim 4.6%

>From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:

France — Muslim 8%
Philippines — 5%
Sweden — Muslim 5%
Switzerland — Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands — Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago — Muslim 5..8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris , we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam, with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:

Guyana — Muslim 10%
India — Muslim 13.4%
Israel — Muslim 16%
Kenya — Muslim 10%
Russia — Muslim 15%

After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:

Ethiopia — Muslim 32.8%

At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:

Bosnia — Muslim 40%
Chad — Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon — Muslim 59.7%

>From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of nonbelievers of all other religions (including nonconforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:

Albania — Muslim 70%
Malaysia — Muslim 60.4%
Qatar — Muslim 77.5%
Sudan — Muslim 70%

After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is ongoing in:

Bangladesh — Muslim 83%
Egypt — Muslim 90%
Gaza — Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia — Muslim 86.1%
Iran — Muslim 98%
Iraq — Muslim 97%
Jordan — Muslim 92%
Morocco — Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan — Muslim 97%
Palestine — Muslim 99%
Syria — Muslim 90%
Tajikistan — Muslim 90%
Turkey — Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates — Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam’ — the Islamic House of Peace. Here there’s supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:

Afghanistan — Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia — Muslim 100%
Somalia — Muslim 100%
Yemen — Muslim 100%

Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.

‘Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel. — Leon Uris, ‘The Haj’

It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts, nor schools, nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate.

Today’s 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world’s population. But their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and all other believers.. Muslims will exceed 50% of the world’s population by the end of this century.
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Excellent.
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Besides, Obama has failed to show any real political courage on sh!t he campaigned on. That’s what the “professional left” is pissed about, not what he couldn’t accomplish. We’ll never know what that was.

What are “a few possible explanations for his silence” about this?

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/the-rest-is-silence/

Not necessarily the most important point in your commentary, but, with respect to

I personally feel that government should stay COMPLETELY out of the religion realm –and that would include NO TAX BREAKS for “churches”

, it could be argued that a blanket ban on taxation of religious organizations is a precise example of the “government staying COMPLETELY out of the religion realm.”
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Think of the mortgage interest deduction, or the employer health insurance tax break, or the cigarette tax, or the capital gains tax, or any of the numerous methods the state admittedly employs with the aim of influencing behaviors and outcomes through tax policy.
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Now think of those sorts of regimes applied to religious organizations…
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Can you see the liberal, liberty-preserving rationale for the relatively comprehensive tax-exempt status of religious organizations, i.e. keeping the state COMPLETELY out of the religious realm?

“It may even be a way for the president to signal unspoken solidarity with its supporters.”

How courageous. The President of the United States is signalling “unspoken solidarity” with people who want members of a religious group to be able to exercise their First Amendment rights? How very, very courageous of him.

The only people stupider that Gutfield are the people who read him.

Another opportunity to remind everyone:

The reason we have a bill of rights in the Constitution is because defending those rights doesn’t come naturally. People are usally quite comfortable with denying them to other people.

http://phd9.blogspot.com/2009/03/re-judge-selection.html

Related:
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http://phd9.blogspot.com/2008/10/in-response-to.html

stuart@ 4.3~
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The difficulty in all these sorts of discussions for me is that everything depends on context.
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Yes, in the context of the way our tax system is fashioned, tax breaks are at least allegedly designed to influence behaviors. I did not take the time/space to provide a comprehensive analysis of this aspect in my post. Instead, I threw out something that was designed to illustrate a principle.
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Actually, two, together, one a special subset of the other, due to the “Freedom of Religion” clause in our Constitution. That one is the “stay completely out of religion” principle, in this case, the aspect being not to give religious groups any leg up on non-religious groups. The more general principle is the principle of uniformity, or even-handedness.
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Actually, I feel that tax breaks are a mechanism of behavior modification that are too easily abused by special interest lobbying. I think that, if we are going to have an income tax, there should not be any tax exemptions for anything for anybody, other than perhaps (and I say perhaps) by income level (the graduated income tax.) However, if, say, a 5% or 10% rate on everyone would generate enough revenue without having to charge higher rates for higher incomes, that would be more ideal, in my opinion. From what I have read, I think there is a good chance of this, for it appears that, for instance, many very large corporations pay almost nothing in comparison both to their earnings, and also by many other interesting comparisons (And the whole business of not having to pay taxes by virtue of having one’s corporate headquarters out-of-country or in some US protectorate with special status really needs to be changed.)
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So, I opined no tax breaks for churches with the idea in mind that there would be no tax breaks for anybody.
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But, even without eliminating other tax breaks, that, I think that my position on eliminating them for churches would still stand. If the purpose of tax breaks is to modify behaviors, just what behavior does tax exemption for churches encourage? Is there any behavior it encourages that would not be properly characterized as government facilitation of particular types of worship and not of others? For example, can you or I as individuals, or even you AND I as a group, claim tax-exempt status for our home(s) because we pray to our own god(s), in our own way(s) there (our own spiritual “house of worship”)?

@ 5.3~
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That may be true (I never even heard the name until this blog), but I have met some pretty stupid people in my life that were still somehow “shrewd” in business, in the sense I meant it — they see an opportunity to fleece a market segment, and do so.. My point was, Isn’t that what most “capitalism only has greatness” flag-wavers look up to — people who successfully identify market segments to fleece?

It is amazing how easily so many people either forget that, or never got that.

5.2, not 5.3

He’s probably not saying anything about it because it’s a stupid, ginned-up August controversy that’s not worth his time.

The Christianist, Dominionist, Theocratic right wing is only using this controversy to enrage their syncophants and to raise money for their cause. Concern for the 1st Amendment does not motivate them. They want a country with only one religion.

With this present wide spread opposition between Americans to the proposed community center in lower Manhattan, unparalleled before the evil crimes of 9/11 and against the U.S. the constitution , all pray now that President Barack Obama will very soon publicly disclose to all Americans and to the world ,the names of the criminals who are ultimately responsible for , as well as the complete facts about , the crimes of 9/11 ,the two wars that followed in Iraq and Afghanistan – both citing these evil crimes as the reason, the following devastation that these wars have caused in these countries ,the hundreds or thousands of Americans, Canadians and other NATO heroes killed or wounded ,the thousands or millions of Muslims and others who were killed, wounded ,displaced……in the world ,the resulting prejudice towards the Islamic faith of some in USA and in the world, and the very serious economic problems that followed in the USA and in the world. Those criminals of 9/11 are very likely also responsible for the present rig explosion disaster and for the human, ecological , environmental and economic devastation it caused.
Tharwat Fawzi

apr brings a set of points so worth being heard that I would like to take a stab at re-wording it to perhaps be more easily heard by a wider swath here.
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Christianist, Dominionist, Theocratic people have created this controversy to enrage their syncophants in order to raise money for their cause. Their primary motivation is akin to a motivation for soldiers in a Holy War — to suppress a religion that they believe is their arch-enemy, and because they are as religiously intolerant as are their counterparts in that other religion. They care perhaps some about the memory of the 911 victims or the fear of terrorism, but their primary reason to use those themes is to also garner the support of more moderate, thinking, capable of reason, and, most importantly of all, religiously tolerant people who would not join the chorus if they were being told it was about suppression of religion.
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To achieve their ends, the creators of this controversy have been willing to twist (and trash, if necessary) the First Amendment and commit lesser transgressions such as outfight fabrications and sound-bite exaggerations.
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They have been somewhat successful in duping those they seek to dupe. Don’t be fooled by them, Swamplanders.

Don’t hold your breath
(unless it’s some really good shirt.)
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In your dreams.
(if they are aided by the famous serotonin re-uptake inhibitor of the 60′s)
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ain’t that right, sacred?

Shep, it kind of depends on what you call ‘courage’ and the stuff he campaigned on. As I recall, aside from policy, he campaigned on trying to change the tone in Washington, trying to find areas of agreement with his opponents and trying to get people to work together for the good of the country. Now, you may not agree that this is feasible, but I think he has shown considerable courage in keeping his cool with obstructive republicans and working with them again and again. People who complain that Obama has let them down often forget that this was one of the central planks and attractions of his candidacy and will always be the first people to complain that he is kissing GOP’s a** all the time.

In terms of policy, I’m sorry but he has achieved or is in the process of achieving a significant majority of what he promised during the campaign. there are clearly things that have not been achieved – either because they are in train or because they have just not been able to do it or because they have changed their minds – but by and large he has had an extremely busy 20 months enacting things he ran on.

Speculation about what he is or isn’t going to say about the Cordoba is completely pointless at this stage, in my view.

myco: I read your posts with interest, But the last response to Thar…. ? Some posters are best left to live, serenely, in that place where no thought is required.

Why our Muslim loving President is confused. 3 answers and explanations of Islam. Watch it and you will know why Obama, “is silent on Cordoba House”
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The President is acting responsibly. This is an issue for NYC. There is no question there are a lot of bigots posting on this site. Sad…..

Oh goodie, a Truther. How is Van Jones doing by the way? Is he still active with the Center for American Progress?

Yes Ladies and Gentlemen, when a liberal is offended by the truth. They shall call you a “Bigot” or a Racist”.
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Yes indeedy, those libs have it all down to a science now. Including wishing Sarah Palin would have been on the plane that Ted Stevens recently died in the crash.
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Such empathetic people those liberals and progressives.
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One minute they are so concerned about bigotry and racisim, the next minute they call for someone to simply DIE QUICKLY.

You forget something newfreedom,
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I do believe you have expressed that Obama might be the biblical anti-christ and I really have a hard time seeing him both as muslim and anti-christ. In your fervor to monkey fling poo Obama you seem to cross wires all across the spectrum. Even regular irrational hatred have to have some kind of train of thought.
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As to 14.1
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Wow
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Try decaf

Well hippo, let me relax your mind so you do not become too concerned about mine.
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The Qu’ran also has a “biblical anti-christ” as well. Imagine that!!

Just for hippo:
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http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pid=3275142
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Quoted from his facebook post, NH Dem Keith David Holloran said “Just wish Sarah and Levy were onboard…”
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Now who is this Keith David Holloran?

New,
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I truly honestly fail to see how ‘a democrat’ or ‘republican’ wishing anyone ill have anything to do with ‘liberals’ and ‘republicans’ as a group?
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I also fail to see what this have to do with your muslophobic rants?
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Are you trying to say that there are ‘liberal’ dirtbags just as dirtbaggy as yourself? Or are you justifying being a dirttbag by behaving just as other dirtbags? I’ve read a lot of that lately. People I chatted with during the GWB years when I supported their ire and reminded people that you can certainly disagree with everything GWB did, but calling our president names and such was kind of childish. The same outstanding conservatives are now having a complete mental meltdown, 180 every single sage ‘this is how I am and live by’ moral conduct they ever proffessed to have. Some have even justified it with ‘if liberals did it under GWB…this is payback – get over it’.
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This is just me – but I always believed in being the better @sshole. I don’t have to lower myself, nor justify how low I can go by what other people do. Nor do I do the intellectually lazy thing by assuming that just because you’re a muslophobe and hate everything Obama for things you can’t quantify in actual facts, others that vote for the same people or party as you do, are.
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In other words – for all the justifications and false equivalance you can post for your behavior you’re still only as good or as bad as your own actions. And here I thought you were a proponent of induvidual responsibility, not do as I say not as I do.
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I take full responsibility for any namecalling and general lowbrow things that I write, as a person in ‘real’ life as I do here. But for everyone like myself there are those that full well without the slightest idea just of ironic it is post here that xyz just comes here and calls people name and end their rants with ‘dumb@ss’ or worse.
But anyway – point taken – introspection ain’t your thang, got it.

Hippo,
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You point seems to be that if a liberal says something outrages no other liberal needs to make a comment about it.
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Yet when a conservative makes a perceived outrages comment, it appears that every liberal on the swamp jumps in to condemn them and claims every other conservative shares this outrages view.
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This is so obviously hypocritical that your comments make no sense.
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What one side considers appropriate behavior they should not condemned the other side for the same behavior.
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Too often conservative comments on this site are called racist, bigoted, hateful with no other real bases then their view are different than the liberal view.
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If a conservative is against Obama’s policies they are a racist. Many liberals actual believe this is true. How can you reason with the unreasonable?

3xfire3,
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I thought my point was that what I say doesn’t malign an entire political party and what I do and says is my own responsibility.
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What’s so hard to understand about that? Are you saying that I’m responsible for everything a liberal says but you’re not for what a conservative says?
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I’m only responsible for what I say and write.
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as for this
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“Too often conservative comments on this site are called racist, bigoted, hateful with no other real bases then their view are different than the liberal view.”
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Right – and everyone are just angels and innocent puppies. If you simply can’t see some of the biggoted over the top comments then you’re simply ignoring it because party is more important then personal integrity.
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That’s you, not me. I’m not responsible for someones reprehensible comments simply because we share the same taste in coffee or tea – but I am if I agree in the premise.

Is this type of action not the definition of hypocrisy? In order to protest the actions of a group they believe is corrupting America, they corrupt the principles of free speech themselves? Only in America…
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I think here would also be a good place to point out that the group building Cordoba House is a moderate sect of Islam, not the radical extremists they have been painted as. This is the exact type of group we want to build in that spot as it shows that we are not afraid of the Islamic community. It would show that we can be unified in the face of adversity, rather than overcome by fear and bigotry. The wife of the founder of Cordoba House is known to have said (paraphrased) that only in America could an Islamic community center be built so close to Ground Zero.
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Are we going to give in to the terrorist groups and be divided by our fear? If we do so, then the extremist groups are winning the “Holy War.” Even if you do not believe my argument, then if we supposedly are, as a society, falling into the belief that Muslims are evil, unscrupulous, and whatever else may be said – are we any different if we sacrifice one of our core beliefs?

I will use just one person, Sarah Palin. How the left has piled on her, vilified her, demonized her and everything in between. It is nothing short of a Shark feeding frenzy on this very site Mr Hippo, and you know it to be true.
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You are the typical hypocrite. Blame others while at the same time sitting back and either not saying anything against your own kind or supporting it by remaining silent when they do, do it.
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You in my opinion are just as disgusting or worse than they are. At least I know where I stand with them, for you, you are merely pond scum in my mind. Take your self-aggrandizing bullcrap and unload it someplace else.
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Again, I have not attacked, called people names or played their 3rd grader attack games unless they have first done so to me. My response to the idiot you defended on this post ended by calling all conservatives on this thread bigots. Now defend that a$$wipe.

mycophile,
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.One more time.
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Are purposely trying to avoid answering this very specific question? Our one other rational liberal on this site tends to stay silent rather that say anything that might anger some other liberals on this site. Hopefully you have the courage to say what you honestly believe about this specific question in my next paragraph.
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“”"”"”My point is that in your opinion, do you believe it is right for most of the liberals on this site to trash the 60-70% of their fellow countrymen calling them bigots, saying their against religious freedom, and saying they are prejudice against Moslems simply because they have a different view about the location of this Islamic building?.”"”"”
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What is your honest opinion on this?
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Please read the rest of the post.
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An example of their approach would be concerning the Islamic Facility to be built 2 blocks from Ground Zero. Many Liberals on this site have said that anyone who is opposed is a bigot, against religious freedom and is prejudice against Moslems.
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A poll just released by Siena College in New York found that 61% of New Yorkers are oppose to this facility being so close to Ground Zero and only 26% support it. On a national basis those in opposition would probably be substantially higher and those supporting it substantially lower.
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There are even Moslems who are now coming out against this site location saying it is insensitive to their fellow Americans and no good will come of it.
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These swamp liberals can not comprehend that their fellow citizens can honestly oppose this location unless they are all bigots. Their mind are closed to views other then their own. That’s too bad. They live in a small world.

@ 12.2~

Your point is well taken. It was the last post of mine very late last night, and I had a choice between doing something a little different that I normally do, or posting nothing. After I posted it, I thought I had made the wrong choice, but it was already done.
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I was concerned when I saw it appear right after I had posted my 11.1, so I was trying some “brief humor”, like I have seen others be successful with, instead of my usual long oratory style.
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Maybe I’ll do better next time.

RESURRECTION ANGLICAN CHURCH – In Hiroshima is not an insult to the many thousand civilian deaths from a WMD attack incinerating their citiy or the victims of Nagasaki, Dresden, Hanoi and others where civilian non-military targets were bombed to Terrorize the populations..contrary to the protocols and conventions of ‘Civilized’ Warfare. The Christian Church in Hiroshima like a Mosque at Ground Zero (a term used first at Hiroshima) is one doorway to Peace

apr,
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The whole world are bigots except for apr and her liberal friend.
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How one can live in such a limited dream world is difficult to understand.
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How minds become so twisted with hate for their fellow man and woman only makes sense if this is what you use to try and fulfill a life that does not give one a good self-worth.
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Apr you are wrong about Republicans and Conservatives and all the people you demonize but if that what it takes for you to find a little happiness in life I guess you have to do what you have to do. It’s really too bad because real happiness can be found out in the real world where truth would show you that 95% of all people are good people. Some just have different views on how to achieve what is best for our citizens and our country and our world.

The Eternal Jew (1940) was an antisemitic German Nazi propaganda film posing as a documentary. One of the shots early in the film shows a pack of rats emerging from a sewer, juxtaposed with a crowd of Jews in a bustling street of a Polish city. Close-ups of individuals show sickly, malformed facial features. The narration says that, as rats are the vermin of the animal kingdom, Jews are the vermin of the human race and similarly spread disease and corruption. Unlike rats, however, the narrator continues, Jews have the uncanny ability to change their appearance and blend into their “human hosts.” A scene depicts four bearded men in traditional religious Jewish clothing, then shows them shaved and in modern business suits, while the narrator explains that only a “trained eye” can distinguish their Jewish features.

3xfirex@4.5~
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Thanks for persevering, I did not mean to dodge your question. In my attention to many threads, what you now make clear to me as a question had not leapt off the page at me before.
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You ask if, in my “opinion (is it) right for most of the liberals on this site to trash the 60-70% of their fellow countrymen calling them bigots, saying their (sic) against religious freedom, and saying they are prejudice against Moslems simply because they have a different view about the location of this Islamic building?”
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NO
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I repeat — NO. Not only is it not “right”, I consider it to be very counterproductive and regrettable, and it reminds me of how so many people, no matter which “side” of an issue they are on, tend to use the same kinds of combative, group-label-and-then-demonize styles.
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Even I, when I am trying hard not to, sometimes fall prey.
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I refer you to my 11.1 on this thread, where you will perhaps see my own version of a reaction to that 60-70%, and, for all I know, your question was in my subconsciousness when I typed it. You will also see that I should have typed “SOME Christianist, Dominionist, Theocratic people . .” Leaving out the word “some” allowed the interpretation that I making a claim about all people in that group.

On September 11, 2010 in Washington DC, those in support of our Constitutional rights and universal human rights of freedom of religion, freedom of worship, and freedom of conscience – will hold a rally in support of these freedoms at Washington DC’s Freedom Plaza at 2 PM.

See more at http://bit.ly/dc911

3xfire3~
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P.S.
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Reminder that I, too, have unanswered questions of you waiting on Dems Slap Pelosi @6

There are 1.5 billion Muslims living on this planet. Since you seem so well informed about Islam, what percentage of these Muslims would you say actually adhere to something like “Sharia Law”? Do you even know? Or are you just copying and pasting every chain email that arrives in your inbox?

Can we not Agree to Disagree on the mosque location? It’s getting a little ridicule with each side claiming their right and the other side is wrong. As long as we are not asking the government to intervene, why can’t we have our view of the situation?
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If I and a majority of Americans and some Moslem Leaders consider this insensitive to many Americans and to the many people who lost love ones on 9/11 { a majority of which don’t want the mosque located their], than why can’t you Liberals accept the fact they we have a different opinion then you. Why do you find it necessary to demonize and call the vast majority of your fellow citizens bigots and anti Religious Freedom and anti Moslem? Do you not understand that you damage your cause greatly by your actions?
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Can you never accept the idea that some of your fellow citizens allowed to have different views than you do and that does not make them evil?
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Your actions leads one to believe you would really be happier in a Dictatorship then in a Democracy. Is that what you really want?

nathan7777@ 4.8~
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If you are addressing me, then I gather you missed the parts of my posts where I:
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1) claimed I was not an expert on Islam
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2) declared my ignorance
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3) described that I was going to post one chain-email that was “the best example of the kind of extreme fear-monger emails on this subject I have seen” in the hopes that those who could discredit any or all of it with verifiable data would do so
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4) Reported the alleged source of the information in that email
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5) Stated that I “worried” about Sharia Law being practiced (and, by the way, I didn’t yet write this, but I have seen numerous reports in the mainstream, alternative, US, and foreign media online of Sharia Law being practiced in various places with the results I described that are abhorrent to me. One of those places is in the parts of Pakistan where the government even struck a deal to ALLOW it to be practiced, did it not?)\
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6) Do not know what the percentages you ask about are, and went no further towards saying what they were than to report what the report of the book’s data would suggest.

7) am 100% against denying anyone from practicing their faith IN PRIVATE, but not any parts of any faiths (or for any reason whatsoever) that violate the human rights of other persons in the process.

If you missed any or all of that, I understand. It was a known risk of posting such long comments. If I could have posted a “link” to it, instead, I would have, but I had none.
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If you are a person who could credibly debunk any of that email, or any of my own musings on the subject, please do.
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THAT ALL SAID, I never forwarded any of these kinds of emails, and “reply-all”ed to every one of them, except this one, with lengthy deconstructions. I only posted it on Swampland because of trusting in the caliber of discernation and education-via-debate efficacy of Swampthings. If it turns out that my having done so foments hate, I will be mightily sorry and reminded never to take such a risk again.

3xfire3~
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Did you see my posts at 4.6 and 4.7?
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btw, why do you continue to refer to me as a rational liberal? I’m willing to bet that there are some areas where I am more conservative than you are. What constitutes a “liberal” in your book? I’m not upset nor feeling slighted — but I am curious. I think that labeling one another, even when done by civil and rational people, feeds into us-and-them-ism. We have zero chance of ridding our government of corruption and other insanities while we are divided.

3xfire3~
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btw, it’s not a mosque

and how much farther away than 2 blocks would it have to be before you would not consider it “insensitive”?

“GROUND ZERO MOSQUE” song / video.

The concept for this particular song is derived solely in point of the location of this building. It is my opinion that “this location” of a mosque will give our “islamic terrorists” enemy a morale boost. This is aiding and giving comfort to our enemies and strengthens their resolve. Protect our troops do not aid our enemy in any way. All men are created equal all men’s actions are not.
Thank you.
Chris McCune. chrismccune.com

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