The Defamation League

It’s really very simple. If you believe in Freedom of Religion, then you believe in Freedom of all religions. If you believe there should be exceptions to which religions deserve free expression, then quit whining about your’s being underepresented.

Can we dispense with any illusion that Abe Foxman is anything but a big fat stinking bigot and hate-monger who cowardly hides behind his accusations of anti-Semitism against anyone who disagrees with him or with Israeli policy?
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He is an embarrassment to the original purpose and tenets of the ADL. That he hasn’t been ousted speaks poorly for that organization.

I’m sure the ADL would be fine with local communities decide by majority rule whether or not Jews could build a synagogue there, right? And they’d be perfectly fine if someone called into question whether or not any of their funding came from abroad too, right?

Lets face the truth. America has long ago become a hate filled society. Anti-Islamic sentiments are just the latest, convenient expression of that hate. Freedom is only for “those people like me” as far as many are concerned.

Joe Klein is right about freedom of religion and the free exercise thereof, moderate followers of Islam, Abe Foxman and the ADL.

ADL, and Foxman, have besmirched the ADL legacy. No longer is the ADL a battler against bigotry but an aider and abettor of bigotry.

If Foxman isn’t fired, the ADL should go the way of the American Jewish Congress. Close its doors. It’s no longer relevant. It will be left with its memories that it forgot and abandoned all on its own.

David Cohen,
Washington DC

To me this is all about how the right wing including the most xenophobic of the right wing are thrilled to make New York City’s tragedy into their own platform for hatred, jingoism but have absolutely no idea where this proposed center is, why it is being built or how it would, instead of being bad for America, would be a lethal blow to what has been called The Narrative of radical Islam.

The ADL of today so overuses the term antisemitism it is like the boy who cried wolf.

Just as it would be extremely awful for children to be eaten by wolves, antisemitism, obviously, is extremely awful.

Not hating Muslims or following a New York tradition beginning back when it was called New Amsterdam of allowing everybody everywhere to call this place home is not anything even vaguely like antisemitism.

Letting the Islamic world know that we do not hate them for their religion and let them pray wherever they want to pray is the worst imaginable thing for fundamentalist Islam.

Maybe Abe Foxman in this economy is worried about job security and if militant Islam starts to declining he might lose some of his own prestige.

Foxman tries to explain the decision :

“The issue was wrenching for the Anti-Defamation League, which in the past has spoken out against anti-Islamic sentiment. But its national director, Abraham H. Foxman, said in an interview on Friday that the organization came to the conclusion that the location was offensive to families of victims of Sept. 11, and he suggested that the center’s backers should look for a site “a mile away.”

“It’s the wrong place,” Mr. Foxman said. “Find another place.”

Asked why the opposition of the families was so pivotal in the decision, Mr. Foxman, a Holocaust survivor, said they were entitled to their emotions.

“Survivors of the Holocaust are entitled to feelings that are irrational,” he said. Referring to the loved ones of Sept. 11 victims, he said, “Their anguish entitles them to positions that others would categorize as irrational or bigoted.””

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/31/nyregion/31mosque.html?pagewanted=2

I think he should have refrain himself from saying this.

We want “them” to be just like “us,” so to make that happen, we’re going to behave more like “them.”

Brilliant.

The ADL’s evolution in my opinion has paralleled Israels’.
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When I grew up, Israel was a beacon of hope. And the ADL was like the NAACP, a well established organization promoting tolerance and defending it’s constituents against the slings and arrows of bigotry.
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I realize now as I’ve gotten older that Israel is not quite as innocent as they were portrayed in the history books I read in school, or in the newspapers of the time.
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Either way, times were different back then, so I can understand the conflicts and the legacies left behind.
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Ever since the 1967 war, though, they’ve promoted the theft of land, and everything that Israel and the Palestinians experience today has grown out of that problem – Israel can’t extract itself and the Palestinians can’t make peace unless they do.
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Caught in that cycle, the Israeli government has become more and more extreme, now to the point where they have installed real racists, whose avowed aims are the traditional form of ethic cleansing* in high places.
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I look at the ADL now as Israel’s** Tea Party Express…
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*Israel practices a slow motion nonlethal form. The traditional form is to resort to mass killing.
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**The ADL seems to be more interested in protecting Israel’s interests than it is in actual antisemitism.

How is it not surprising that the liberal loons squawk, moan and groan whenever one of their very own institutions for many years now sees a difference between what a religion is and what it is not. When representatives of one faction or religion decide they will take advantage or our laws in order to throw dirt into our faces.
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In the disguise of being an Islamic Center, known terrorist sympathizers have petitioned to buy a building basically steps away from one of the most sacred and revered sites in the United States. A site which those on the left spit on each and every time they are proponents of allowing a Mosque of all things to be built right next door.
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This would be the same as a Neo-nazi group calling for one of their meeting houses to be built right next to a Jewish death camp. Absolutely no difference what-so-ever. But, our little liberal friends will condone building a Mosque and support this to happen despite the majority of people who oppose it.
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The liberals want to use religion as a political tool. It is not as if they care anything at all about religion, as they also support and defend people who want to destroy religion. The liberals would support the Devil himself should he appear and demand to put up an upside down cross on ground zero. They would shout religious freedom, let the Devil build his evil temple. Unbelievable.
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Despite all the claims the founders provided for freedom of religion, it was for a CHRISTIAN freedom of religion. They must all be rolling in their graves right now as they watch how their dream has been perverted. History teaches us that those people who did come to this country long ago did so to get away from their persecution. It wasn’t a band of Muslims who crossed the vast ocean seeking out a land where they could practice their form of Christianity. Get over it already, it was Christians who settled this land.
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If people cannot respect the majority of Americans and their historical back ground, then they should not seek out America as a place to live. Go to a country which will tolerate their brand of religion. I say go there and build your mosque.

“Despite all the claims the founders provided for freedom of religion, it was for a CHRISTIAN freedom of religion.”
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Well, I guess that clarifies where Jews stand.
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No limits…

As with any aging organization, it eventually comes to the point where its main goal is perpetuation of its entrenched leadership. The main way that goal is accomplished in these days and times is by keeping the organization financially solvent, and, in this case, that is done by appealing to a list of very far-Right Jewish billionnaires and millionnaires with deep pockets (deep for those individuals and organizations that say what the money-men want to hear). The same process goes on in a different way in the anti-Israel block, led by Saudi billionnaires and millionnaires, who are probably the driving force behind the Islamic center under discussion and the media focus on it. The ground-zero center is a battle of fat cats with opposing political and idealogical agendas, under the guise of being about freedom of religion and speech, and the organizations are lining up with their hands out to get their payoff. That’s how I see it.
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By the way, ADL has done and is doing a number of good and necessary things behind the scenes, so let’s not forget that fact while all the bloviating and fundraising is going on about the Islamic center.

Thank you for validating all the claims against you on this site.
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I was born here. My parents were born here. My grandparents were born here.
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I do respect my fellow Americans, but I in no way accept this as a “Christian country” where people should “get over it already” if they do not prescribe to your religion (whatever it may be).
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Fortunately, neither does the United States Constitution. If there is anything for anyone to get over, it is that fact, by you.
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Perhaps YOU should move to the vatican or something. A place where Christianity is not only a way of life, but the law and overriding force in all society because that’s not how it is here, and it never will be.
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There have been many, many, many cultures throughout history that attempted to deem themselves “better” than anything that was “other”. Every single time they either failed and faded into the history books, or they became more accepting of things not exactly like themselves and evolved. America hasn’t done everything perfect in its still young lifespan, but it got that one right and started out ahead of the curve.

Thank you Ayatollah Rusty…

A fine post, Joe. It’s extremely disheartening to see the ADL stoop this low.
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The voice of Piglet shows up at 2:27 of this clip. He sounds too ingratiating to be Newt Gingrich; do you think he’s more like Sarah Palin, or Abe Foxman?
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Despite Ayatollah Rusty’s claim, the First Amendment of the United States Constitution does not contain the word “Christian”.
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“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; …”
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Even a strict constructionist cannot dispute the fact that Christianity is not singled out in any way
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Text

All in the world pray now that President Obama will very soon publicly disclose to all Americans and to the world who are ultimately responsible for ,and the complete facts about , the evil crimes of 9/11, the two wars that they caused in Iraq and Afghanistan -both citing these evil crimes as the reason for – the thousands or millions killed, wounded or displaced in the world , the heroes American, Canadians and other NATO forces killed or wounded, as a result , the very serious economic problems that followed in the USA and in the world and the present rig explosion catastrophe- which is undoubtedly connected to the same criminals- with the resulting human, ecological, environmental and economic devastation it caused .

Quite right, Mr Klein. Your article is absolutely correct.

But news? Not to anyone who has read the so-called “controversial” book about the Israel Lobby, by Professors John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt (2007).

I recommend this book to everyone who is even faintly interested in the relationship between the U.S. and Israel.

Far too long, the tail has been wagging the dog.

You wrote “Despite all the claims the founders provided for freedom of religion, it was for a CHRISTIAN freedom of religion.”
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Using logical reasoning, you can’t support that statement by using the Constitution (which includes the Bill of Rights) or the Bible. I say this not as an opinion but as a statement of fact, and as a Christian.

“Despite all the claims the founders provided for freedom of religion, it was for a CHRISTIAN freedom of religion.”
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“Thomas Jefferson also explicitly mentioned Muslims when writing about the movement for religious freedom in Virginia in his autobiography. He wrote “[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom… was finally passed,… a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word ‘Jesus Christ,’ so that it should read ‘a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion.’ The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination.”[23]”

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States
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Thomas Jefferson owned a copy of the Koran.
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“In September of 1654, shortly before the Jewish New Year, twenty-three Jews of Dutch ancestry from Recife, Brazil, arrived in New Amsterdam (New York City). Governor Peter Stuyvesant, tried to enhance his Dutch Reformed Church by discriminating against other religions, but religious pluralism was already a tradition in the Netherlands and his superiors at the Dutch West India Company in Amsterdam overruled him. However, the first Jew to step foot on American soil was Solomon Franco, a merchant who arrived in Boston in 1649, and was given a stipend from the Puritans there on condition he leave on the next passage back to Holland.”
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Sorry, Rusty, they had both Jews and Muslims in mind when they wrote the First Amendment.
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“This would be the same as a Neo-nazi group calling for one of their meeting houses to be built right next to a Jewish death camp.”
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No, since the SS were Catholic and Lutheran, it would be like building a Catholic Church near the death camps.
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The SS belt buckle said on it “God is on our side”.
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Monsignor Jozef Tiso, a Roman Catholic Priest was a Nazi appointed dictator or Slovakia.

If people cannot respect the majority of Americans and their historical back ground, then they should not seek out America as a place to live. Go to a country which will tolerate their brand of religion. I say go there and build your mosque.
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Iran is waiting, Rusty. I’m sure they’d be happy to have another racist, authoritarian, dirtbag move in.

Since some theocratic, dominionist right wingers on this site insist that this is a “Christian” country, they would also ban Jewish community centers. How about those Buddhists?

Sad that we haven’t learned much since 1961.

The man starting the Mosque was born in Brooklyn:
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Sharif El-Gamal
Owner
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* Real Estate in New York, NY
* Real Estate Agent/Manager*
* Offices of Real Estate Agents & Brokers
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Soho Properties Business Information
Location Type Single Location
Annual Sales (Estimated) $1 to 2.5 million
Employees (Estimated) 10 to 19
D&B: 2*
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He and his brother Sammy are self made commercial real estate agents
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These are New Yorkers.
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http://www.manta.com/c/mm5rpw7/soho-properties
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There are hundreds of commercial real estate agents in Manhattan, so, I haven’t met them myself. I am a newcomer.
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From a work website (not accessible to the public) known as Costar I found out that they are landlord representatives of two properties and own another two buildings themselves.
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BTW: NYC Mayor Mike Bloomberg is both a Billionaire and Jewish, yet completely opposes this.
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I have no idea who the ADL is appealing to, but, a very large share of Jews in NYC are very liberal.
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Is there a Jewish KKK somewhere who burn the star of David in people’s back yards? If there is, then, maybe, Foxman is appealing to Jewish rednecks. (I don’t know any rednecks at all, so I don’t know if there are Jewish rednecks or not).

I see the term “antisemitism” in your article. What is semitism?

I know what Semitic peoples are, there are a number of them, but I do not know what “semitism” is, to be against it.

Harold A. Maio, retired Mental Health Editor

Building a mosque on Ground Zero is absolutely sickly and repulsive idea to every reasonable mind, and to decency itself. It has nothing to do with the freedom of religion. By the way, freedom of religion, or any other sort of freedom, is to be granted to any religious group, or any group or individual, who accepts that principle itself concerning other religions, or other freedoms. In this respect consider the number of Christian churches, Jewish synagogues, Buddhist or any other houses of worship in the Arab world, or the prospect of building a new one in any location thereof (also any other freedom like freedom of speech, freedom of women, etc) and draw your conclusions.

To 53-3

Israel has been constantly robbed of territories that should be under its control according to the British mandate over the Land of Israel (Palestine), by first establishing the Transjordan kingdom (due to their understanding of their being indebted to prince Abdullah) and then playing into the hands of Arabs in a number of consecutive occurrences of Arab violence, including blocking the Jewish immigration during 1930s and thus deeming hundreds of thousands (at least) of Europe’s Jews to death in the Nazi camps.
Now, with 20% of the land in Jewish hands, and in the view of the Arab demand that their projected Palestinian state will be judenrein while their other demand is to bring some 200 thousand so called “refuges” into Israel (if that happens, each of those 200,000 will then present claims to bring his cousins, fiancés etc, and the human rights activists will campaign arduously in support, which might result in over than a million Arabs, which in turn will put an end to the Jewish state – I surmise that that is the real aim under disguise of high-flown rhetoric) – in view of all this you accuse Israel of “land theft”?! There is a lot to be added, but the time is short. Let me give you a simple advice: make a step back to look at the situation afresh, and don’t follow the accepted (especially, in the media) vocabulary, but look at the essence of things. And then define for yourself what you are standing for. And educate yourself in history (again, not through the media).
By the way, your expression “that clarifies where Jews stand for” on the grounds of a certain Jew saying such and such, is racist (should I say anti-, you know), while I doubt if you would say after an attempted (or even a successful) terror act by a certain Arab (not an isolated one, but sponsored and trained by some Arab organization) you would allow yourself to say “that clarifies where the Arabs stand”.
Excuse me, but my time is in short supply, as well as your intellectual integrity, to continue.

I live in Michigan which has a large Muslim population. I work with many Muslims at my place of employment and live next door to a very nice Muslim family whose children play with mine all the time. I find them to be in general wonderful, hard working, and kind people. My Muslim neighbors are from India. Many of my Muslim co-workers are from Bosnia. The idea that Muslims are all radical terrorists from Middle Eastern countries bent on destroying America, and that Mosques are monuments to terrorists and 9/11 is ridiculous. It makes me wonder how much contact all these people screaming over this community center have had with actual Muslims.

First of all a big hearty FYWP. I think y’all can figure out what that means.

Now my main point: a Bosnian Muslim woman painted my house. She came recommended from my parents, and it’s a small business consisting of her and her children. They did a remarkable professional job, but the most remarkable part was she did the whole thing while wearing full hijab (her daughter didn’t, I’m guessing that causes many a fight over bourek!) even in the heat of the sun, which can get rather intense where I live. People will be saints or demons regardless of their religion.

Oh and message to SZ: if your LB has a bourek recipe she’s allowed to share I’m an eager learner!

Your commentary on the theft of land by “settlers” is more of the same.
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We call that “rationalization”. It’s what you do when you need to come up with reasons to do something that is wrong. I’ve heard ‘em all, and yours are no different – and – are based on rectifying injustices (cherry picked to only include those against Israelis) committed in the past.
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Next you’ll be going back to 70AD to use those events as rationalizations. You are as predictable as you are ignorant. Dare you be on the receiving end!
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As for my comments to Rusty, keep in mind you are hugging a very poisonous snake:
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My comment at 10 was directed at Rusty’s comment at 10 and includes his quote! That makes it your problem, not mine, as you can’t tell real antisemitism if it bit you on the nose.
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And lo and behold, look at Rusty comment at 10, and you will find that it did…

Don’t know about a Jewish KKK (although it would probably be called a TTT for “Torah! Torah! Torah!”), but there is plenty of evidence for far-Right Jewish billionnaires and millionnaires spreading their money around to support Israel and counter the money from Saudi billionnaires and millionnaires that is attempting to delegitinize Israel. As usual, America seems to get caught in the middle, and everyone loses.

While I agree that Muslims should be able to build Mosques and other buildings like any other church, this project does seem insensitive and fairly exploitative of the national tragedy of 9/11 and the intense grief that it caused many people. To me, the builders are using that catastrophe to promote themselves and their more peaceful counterpart to radical Islam. Yes, a center like the one proposed could do great good, like the YMCA and Jewish community center. But those buildings weren’t built next to sites of terrorism wrought by Jewish or Christian fanatics. The Muslims could do more good building their site in a place that is less provocative. Building it there isn’t going to convince anyone that Islam is a peaceful religion, it will only be “preaching to the choir”, so to speak. Instead, it will be seen by many as an aggressive, triumphalist act and will fan the flames of anger. How far away is far enough? some ask. Maybe in a place that isn’t so close that a large piece of falling air craft crashed through the ceiling and smashed through several floors, as happened at the Burlington Coat Factory on the site. Someplace that families of victims visiting the place their loved ones died aren’t confronted with what amounts to a political statement about how they died.

Foxmen should be fired immediately – he is a judeofascist waging a Neocon-jihad against American Muslims as well as advocating Neocon/Israeli wars against Muslims worldwide.

He should be unceremoniously canned

“As usual, America seems to get caught in the middle, and everyone loses.”
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We’ve debated Israel before and disagreed, but, what you said above I agree with 100%.
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Of those two non-Christian faiths I would say that, at least in most of the United States Judaism is succeeding in being welcomed as an American faith and, not exclusively due to outside forces (primarily, obviously, due to terrorism) Islam is losing.
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Obviously there is no reason why both can not be fully welcomed into American culture.
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What I am eager for is for the Islamic World to see American raised Muslims as well as some converts to be attending the Downtown Manhattan Mosque unmolested to just let followers of “The Narrative” know that we (except racists, the paranoid and Christian Dominionists – fortunately far from a majority of our culture) neither hate nor fear Muslims.
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Maybe if New Yorkers are lucky this time the Islamic Fundamentalists will just go after Republicans from now on.
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(I’m kidding, I would never wish that upon even Rusty.)

Beng,
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First mistake: the Mosque is not at Ground zero.
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Second mistake: the Mosque is not en route to Ground Zero by either car, public transit or walking from most directions.
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Third mistake: New York City born and raised Muslims nor immigrants from nearly all working class and middle class people from Muslim countries can possibly have any influence over what the Royalty of Saudi Arabia does. If you dislike Saudi Arabia, buy solar panels for your house, get a hybrid car (to use less gasoline) and use all other means available to get us away from oil dependence.
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Fourth: If we held everybody to that standard then Catholics would have been held responsible for Mussolini, Franco and Salazar and partially responsible for Hitler while Lutherans would be partially responsible for Hitler as well. Does that mean that from the rise of Benito Mussolini in 1922 until the fall of Francisco Franco in 1975 because the Vatican tolerated and, at times, seemed to condone fascism?
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Should we hold all Jews responsible for the Jewish Defense League, a tiny Jewish terrorist group?
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Holding all members of a religion responsible for the acts of some individuals is absurd, unreasonable and unjust.
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Your arguments have similarities to racist and other xenophobic remarks since it is the same line of thought that, if all people who call themselves Muslim are of one mind on all things social, political and religious then it is not dissimilar to how racists presume that all blacks of all nations are carbon copies of one another and have exactly the same personalities and so on.
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You’re a reminder that America still has many ignorant people in it despite the progress made over the past century.

I admit that I haven’t read the full exchange between you and Rusty, and others. I am ready to take back my personal accusation if you are prepared to do the same concerning my ignorance.
The fact that you know all the arguments for Jewish rights on the land, which I doubt, is not in itself an argument for their incorrectness. I suggest you to pose yourself sometimes hypothetical tests to clear up things. For example, were Jordan and Egypt to overpower Israel in another round of war and occupy exactly the same territories they held before the Six Days War, would you pronounce any objection to their rule over the so called Palestinian people? I doubt. I would bet that the very existence of the Palestinian people would disappear from the international agenda as quickly as it jumped into existence after that war. Did you protest in any way Turkey’s occupation of Northern part of Cyprus and transfer there of 160 thousand Turks – and that is without any war waged on it by Cyprus, Greece or whoever. Probably this comparison is also predictable, but that doesn’t make incorrect.
As for Israel being a beacon in previous years, as you mentioned, it was probably too much of a romanticism to expect of a real state to be above earthly affairs. However, if you put Israel on one side of scales and the Arab states, each one separately or all of them together, on the other, I think it won’t take you long to decide which side is closer, and by far, to serving as a beacon on any count.
Let me another remark. Petty claims aside, you could find Jews, say in the last 200-300 years (but if you wish even going back much longer in time) standing for all kinds of things and fighting on each and every barricade, but mostly and by far for the liberalism (in a good European sense), human rights etc. You can hardly find more than a handful of Arabs speaking openly for these things in the present time. One who really cares for those freedoms should support these courageous people to promote human rights in the vast Muslim world rather than delude oneself that giving a permission to build a mosque at Ground Zero will serve anything but the sense of superiority of their preachers which they will eagerly disseminate.

Yup. You are right, I’ve heard them all, even these.
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And no, you are still cherry picking historical injustices. Base data is that there is no justification for taking another’s land and home regardless of historical circumstances.
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Thou shalt not steal. This Commandment was cast in stone for a reason. Can you figure out the symbolism here?
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Plus, let me ad that all of us would be in the unenviable position of handing over the keys to our homes to Native Americans.
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Don’t try “talking points” with me. I’ve been around and seen “righteous” “settlers” or pro-”settlers” since way back on Independent Argument on BBC years ago. There are racists on both sides, and the “so-called Palestinian people” is a phrase that tells me exactly where you are coming from.
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Now,to the next part:
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The Arab world has been beset by it’s own long list of atrocities and pogroms, but there is no doubt as to the morality of the current government in Israel:
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I beg to do more than balance the scales between those who hold two entire populations captive and those who commit terrorist acts*.
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My use of the word “terrorist” has a wider definition than yours…

Most of you miss one important point. The Jewish community in the US never wanted to convert it to a Jewish country. The muslim community – or its big majority – openly sates tha its final goal is to islamize it. Whatever the Mayor of NY says, the non muslim population of th US – christians and jews alike – have a good reason if not to fear, at least to be anxious. As certain nations in Europe (France, Belgium} already are.

“The Jewish community in the US never wanted to convert it to a Jewish country.”
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Your statement is true of Judaism, but, not for any sect of Christianity at all.
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Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormon’s (yes, on the fringe of Christianity is many ways – but let’s not too theological) go door to door, even in NYC where religion is very private (Catholics have a slight majority) you will still find people handing out fliers about evangelical Christians preaching (one church was, also, giving out granola bars – I gave the granola bar to a co-worker at that time since I am not into that).
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Although not prone to standing on street corners handing things out, I was raised Catholic and Catholics, just like all other branches of Christianity as well as Islam, pray for converts to discover The Church.
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With the exception of Judaism, all religion believes that they are the ultimate religion and, therefore, wish the world to convert.
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Go back about a century and a half and then Protestant New York (and far more outside of the major cities) feared Catholics converting people and taking over.
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When Al Smith, the first Catholic presidential candidate ran for office, a picture of him in front of the the Holland Tunnel was taken by Herbert Hoover’s campaign with the caption changed to say that Smith was building a tunnel from the White House to the Vatican to take orders from the Pope.
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New religions or, specifically, religions new to a country scare the easily frightened xenophobic.
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Once it was Jews who scared Americans. Once it was Catholics. Sometimes it is Mormons or Jehovah’s witnesses, but now it is Muslims who frighten the easily frightened.

Nate Silver just posted an interesting article about the opinion polls on the topic of the community center / mosque. There is also a map.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/07/polls-reporting-on-ground-zero-mosque.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

@patricksartor: It would not be the same as building a Catholic Church near the Nazi death camps. Thousands of Catholics were killed by the Nazis, too. St. Maximilian Kolbe, a Catholic priest who gave his life at Auschwitz in the starvation bunker in place of another man with a family, and St. Edith Stein, a Catholic nun who also died in the concentration camps, are but two of the thousands of Catholics who died at the hands of the Nazis. Pope John Paul II had to become a Catholic priest in secret because all known Catholic priests in Poland were arrested and either executed immediately or sent to the camps, where they were beaten severely and treated even more harshly for their beliefs in Jesus, if they were caught saying Mass, praying the Rosary, etc. etc. Fr. Kolbe was left for dead after being severely beaten by a guard who kept asking him, “And NOW do you believe??” “Yes, I still believe…” was his reply… until he was beaten unconscious. In fact, if you go to Auschwitz, as I have, you will see that one of the heads of the Nazi party said that their mission was to rid the world of “Catholics, Jews, Poles, and gypsies” (this quote is on the wall there, in that order) through abortion, forced sterilization, and the concentration camps. They hated everything the Catholic Church stood for… as a party, they did, anyway. There were those who did not understand what the Nazi Party was really all about, those who believed the lies, and those who acted out of fear and ignorance. Yet, those who really did understand what was happening knew that it was absolutely against everything they professed. Catholic priests even at the Vatican, where the Nazis were too afraid to launch an all-out war on Catholicism yet, risked their lives to organize underground means for Jews to escape, hiding places, etc. Some of those priests were caught, some were not. One such priest was confronted by the commander of Nazi forces in Rome, who miraculously spared his life… and many years later, in prison for war crimes, had the same priest hear his confession before he died.
The Cathoic Church is very clear in Her writings, documents, encyclicals, letters, catechism, etc. etc. that ALL killing and hatred is evil, and that all people are created in the image and likness of God, and must be shown the same dignity and respect. That is definitely not the teaching of Islam.

It does seem awfully naive of Osama and “Al Qaeda” to entrust command of their propaganda operations to the grandson of an Anti-Defamation League board member, doesn’t it?

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/03/08/the-talented-mr-pearlman/

to 53-3

What is another’s land – is it you to decide upon what it is? While there is no agreement there is no Palestinian land. You and others see certain territories as a prospected Palestinian land, that doesn’t define the issue.
As to my using the expression “so called” in conjunction with “Palestinian people” – it has at least two-fold meaning. First, thus called people is a conjecture of the Western-thinking minds. It goes like this: let’s lump into one nation a certain population, then we know what a nation wants – self-determination i.e., so we’ll propose it to them, and they’ll be happy (meaning they’ll be off our neck). It didn’t work for decades, and let me predict that it won’t in the foreseeable future. It is a misrepresentation of the problem, but it will take me more that a short remark to expand on it. Anyway, if I said “the so called Yugoslavian people” would you object as readily? Does it tell you where I stand? By the way, it doesn’t matter where I stand, you shouldn’t make it personal, but refer to the arguments, which you fail to do.
The second meaning: this people as a nation might be in the process of formation but it was nowhere in existence a number of decades ago. The process of nation-building takes usually longer than one term of elected functionaries who are eager to bring some agreement during that term to grab a moment’s popularity with a staged ceremony and probably even to win a Nobel Peace Prize. They are in such hurry that they bungle things and create a mess. That process doesn’t always come to fruition.
I don’t know what your experience is, you claim you have some. If you talked to the Arabs residing in (so called) West Bank you could learn that they are far from seeing the Gazans as their people for example, and so on.
Your reference to “current government of Israel” suggests of an automatic and predefined repudiation. Aren’t you being inculcated by media of known inclination? Again, you wouldn’t use that kind of phrase in reference to, say, Arafat’s government. You don’t ask yourself hard questions, let alone answer them (when I asked some). Instead you advice me not to talk points with you. But that’s what we are doing here.
Last point. Taking your own is not stealing.
Still another point, last absolutely. Israel doesn’t hold any population captive. Rather the Arabs are captive of their own culture and religion. Again, look at the vast Arab world and find any free Arab nation. Israel rather proposed them more freedom than they would have under their own rule. How can we know? Look at Gaza. Do you think the West Bank’s destiny will be different if Israel withdrew? That is at least naïve just as a belief that a Mosque at Ground Zero would promote Arab/Muslim understanding with the West.

I don’t understand anti-semetism and have wondered about it. Is the basis religious, cultural, economic, all of the above? I don’t know. Although I am very anti religious, it still fascinates me. I suspect if one could enter the brain and thought process of Foxman, we would find fertile ground for what it is all about.
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Being anti-religious, I am repulsed by the claim that the World Trade Center is sacred ground. No. Historic, iconic, but not sacred. This whole objection to a moderate religious order wanting to establish a center near there is obscene. Stupid. McCarthyite. Hot air. Meaningless. I’ll get back to you when I think of more precise terms and words.

Oh please, dear Mr. Joe Klein, I haven’t read any of your previous articles, but clearly you have a bias and you use your writing skill to justify a bias. In stead of taking things out of context to justify your bias, maybe you should actually listen. The ADL clearly stated that decision for this construction should not be based on religious views or bigotry. But rather, paying closer attention to the feeling of those who actually lost family and friends. Again, they clearly stated that they (who ever is building the mosque) have every legal right to build. What the ADL seems to be concerned with is the motives behind this (and this is exactly why there are institutions like the ADL- not only to be concerned with purely legal aspects, but also with the moral and ethical aspects).

Where historically (and at present time around the world) mosques have been build over (that is, physically on top of) symbols opposing Islam, one is obligated to ask why are they building over/next to such a controversial land mark (and, building such an extravagant structure) that is sure to create heated emotions.

This is not a question of bigotry or Islamophobia. Muslim have built many magnificent mosques (and which always seem to have out-done any religious structure near by) all over the US with little or no opposition. In-fact, abe foxman and the adl were vocally against anyone who opposes to such buildings. However, this is a question of motives and respect. Consequently, asking and talking about the motives and the finances behind this makes great ethical sense.

I would argue that building such an extravagant mosque at such a controversial site, only will lead us to a religious race where every religious group is looking to out-done the other. This is a situation that extremist Islam has created in other countries (be it Israel in current day, or Turkey and Spain in the past) and needs to be avoided if we truly want to keep our peaceful and true freedom of religion!!!

No one (well I can’t say no one, but I can say that the ADL and other people like me) is denying this because Moslims are building it. Rather, because it seems that the whole project is based on creating a public relation stunt that actually leads to further religious extremes.

There is simply no crucial need to build a mosque at a site that thousands were murdered in the name of Islam other than as a publicity stunt. this will only create more division among us. Similarly I would expect a justified outrage if any Christians, Jews or Bahai were demanding to build one of their most extravagant structures right next to Mecca in Saudi Arabia.

I don’t understand zionism either, so what do I know. And I am staring in wonder at post 28. He says it’s not about religion and proceeds on a religious rant. Abraham, Jesus, and Mohamed, wtf?

Daniel, Interesting comments there.. Thank you.

“Despite all the claims the founders provided for freedom of religion, it was for a CHRISTIAN freedom of religion.”
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Simply unadulterated nonsense: the Treaty of Tripoli explicitly says so.
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“Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.”
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Art. 11. “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”
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Read that over & over again until it is absorbed, Rusty.
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“the Government of the United States of America is not, IN ANY SENSE, founded on the Christian religion”

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/the-rest-is-silence/

“Similarly I would expect a justified outrage if any Christians, Jews or Bahai were demanding to build one of their most extravagant structures right next to Mecca in Saudi Arabia.”

It amazes me how often people are justifying being outraged at the Community Center by saying they would be upset about it or not allow it in Saudi Arabia or some other Middle Eastern country. Isn’t America suppose to be a model for other countries to follow instead of equally intolerant. I don’t think we want to start the ‘it’s OK for us because they do it in Saudi Arabia’ line of thinking.

Mr. Shooki, it’s clear you don’t really know what you’re talking about.
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“This is not a question of bigotry or Islamophobia.” Yes, it is.
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“why are they building over/next to such a controversial land mark” “building such an extravagant mosque at such a controversial site” “no crucial need to build a mosque at a site that thousands were murdered in the name of Islam” The proposed community center/mosque would be several blocks away from the WTC site on a block with many other businesses and in a building that is currently empty but used to be a Burlington Coat Factory discount store (yes, soooo “extravagant”!)
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“The ADL clearly stated that decision for this construction should not be based on religious views or bigotry. But rather, paying closer attention to the feeling of those who actually lost family and friends.” Just because the ADL says they’re not bigoted doesn’t mean it’s true. I lost friends and acquaintances on 9/11 as did many people I know, but we’re not blaming Islam or denying the rights of law-abiding NY Muslims from worshiping as they wish.
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Mr. Shooki, why don’t you mind your own little neighborhood instead of sticking your unwanted nose in our zoning issues. Manhattanites support the building of this mosque (Quinnipiac 46-36-18), and the community board in charge voted 29-1 to approve the plans.
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The only public relations stunt here is Republicans like Palin and Gingrinch ginning up weak-minded scaredy cats like yourself. You should be embarrassed. Back in the 60′s, those white people turning the hoses on civil rights workers and blowing up little black girls believed their bigotry was right too. Twenty years from now, you can remember yourself as their kind.

This is not an issue of contemporary discrimination – it is a matter of historical precedent. As is often said, those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. As such, a brief historical lesson may be in order so as to depth to your understanding of this issue.

The word “masjid” is found throughout the Qur’an, most frequently with reference to the sanctuary of Kaaba in the city of Mecca. The Qur’an applies the term “masjid” to places of worship of different religions, including Judaism and Christianity; in the same general meaning of a place of worship, the word is used in the hadith, collections of Muslim traditions about the deeds and saying of Muhammad and his companions. It is related of the Arab commander Amr ibn al-As that he performed the salat (prayer) in a church and Zayd ibn Ali says regarding churches and synagogues, “Perform thy salat in them; it will not harm thee”, meaning that churches and synagogues can reappropriated and converted to be used as mosques.

Muhammad himself converted the pagan pantheon of the Ka’aba, located in Mecca to be used as a mosque after he conquered Makkah in 630.

According to the early Muslim historians, Jewish and Christian places of worship were seized by the Muslims in towns that were taken by conquest. From the beginning of the Muslim conquests, the Christians had ceded to the Muslims half of their churches, which were turned into mosques. One of the earliest examples of this kind was in Damascus, where in 705 Umayyad caliph Abd al-Malik took the church of St. John from the Christians and had it rebuilt as a mosque, which is now known as Umayyad Mosque; overall, Abd al-Malik is said to have transformed ten churches in Damascus into mosques. Umayyad Mosque in Damascus is one of the first churches converted into mosques. Lala Mustafa Pasha Mosque in Cyprus was formerly St. Nicholas Cathedral – it is one of the very few surviving churches in gothic designs that had been converted into a mosque.

The process of turning churches into mosques was especially intensive in the villages, with the gradual conversion of the people to Islam. During his persecution of the Copts, Abbasid caliph al-Ma’mun turned many churches into mosques, both in Cairo and in Egyptian villages, which had no mosques in the earlier generations of Islam. Fatimid caliph al-Hakim converted numerous churches and synagogues into mosques.

In many instances mosques were established on the places of Jewish or Christian sanctuaries associated with Biblical personalities who were also recognized by Islam; the practice was particularly common in Palestine. Caliph Umar laid the foundation of Al-Aqsa mosque on the Temple Mount, the most sacred site in Judaism; Dome of the Rock, another Muslim mosque, was also built on the Temple Mount.

The mosque of Job in Ash Shaykh Sa’d, Syria, which previously was a church of Job. Cave of the Patriarchs, the second most holy site in Judaism, was converted into a church during the Crusades before being turned into a mosque in 1266 and henceforth banned to Jews and Christians.

In October 2000, during the Al-Aqsa intifada, the tomb of the Hebrew patriarch Joseph, and the yeshiva inside Od Yosef Chai, located in Nablus, was damaged by a Palestinian mob. During Palestinian Authority-organized repairs, the dome was painted green and was only repainted white following international protests and objections.

The destruction of Hindu temples in India during the Islamic conquest of India had occurred from the beginning of Muslim conquest until the end the Mughal Empire throughout the Indian subcontinent. In his book “Hindu Temples – What Happened to Them”, Sita Ram Goel included a list of 2000 mosques that it is claimed were built on Hindu temples. The second volume of the book excerpts from medieval histories and chronicles and from inscriptions concerning the destruction of Hindu, Jain and Buddhist temples. The authors claim that the material presented in this book are only the tip of an iceberg.

Ram Janmabhoomi refers to a tract of land in the North Indian city of Ayodhya which is the birthplace of Lord Rama. Archeological Survey of India, after conducting excavations at the site reported that prior to 1528, a temple stood at this site but with the arrival of Mughals the temple was demolished and replaced with Babri Mosque. Many other temples were also demolished and replaced with mosques.

Inspired by the Minaret of Jam in Afghanistan and wishing to surpass it, Qutbuddin Aibak, the first Muslim ruler of Delhi, commenced construction of the Qutb Minar in 1193, which was completed later by his successor, Iltutmish and Firuz Shah Tughluq in 1386. The minaret is made of fluted red sandstone covered with intricate carvings and verses from the Qur’an. The Qutb Minar is itself built on the ruins of the Lal Kot, the Red Citadel in the city of Dhillika, the capital of the Tomars and the Chauhans, the last Hindu rulers of Delhi. The complex initially housed 27 ancient Hindu & Jain temples which were destroyed and their debris used to build the Qutb minar.

An inscription at the Quwwat Al-Islam Mosque in Delhi states: This Jamii Masjid built in the months of the year 587 (hijri) by the Amir, the great, the glorious commander of the Army, Qutb-ud-daula wad-din, the Amir-ul-umara Aibeg, the slave of the Sultan, may God strengthen his helpers! The materials of 27 idol temples, on each of which 2,000,000 Deliwal coins had been spent were used in the construction of this mosque.

An inscription of 1462 A.D.at Jami Masjid at Malan, in Banaskantha District of Gujarat states: The Jami Masjid was built by Khan-I-Azam Ulugh Khan, who suppressed the wretched infidels. He eradicated the idolatrous houses and mine of infidelity, along with the idols with the edge of the sword, and made ready this edifice. He made its walls and doors out of the idols; the back of every stone became the place for prostration of the believer.

After the Islamic conquest of Persia, Zoroastrian fire temples, with their four axial arch openings, were usually turned into mosques simply by setting a mihrab (prayer niche) on the place of the arch nearest to qibla (the direction of Mecca). This practice is described by numerous Muslim sources; however, the archeological evidence confirming it is still scarce. Zoroastrian temples converted into mosques in such a manner could be found in Bukhara, as well as in and near Istakhr and other Iranian cities.

The Great Synagogue of Oran was confiscated and turned into a mosque. The ancient synagogue of Katzrin was converted to a mosque in the Mamluk period. After the expulsion of all Jews from Algeria, the Great Synagogue of Oran was confiscated for use as a mosque. The Aksa mosque in The Hague, Netherlands, was formerly a synagogue.

Some of the Greek Orthodox churches in Turkey that were left behind by expelled Greeks in 1923 were converted into mosques, and a number of synagogues were confiscated and converted to mosques after the expulsions of the Jews from Arab lands in the 1950s and 60′s. A relatively significant surge in church-mosque conversion followed the 1974 Turkish Invasion of Cyprus. Many of the Orthodox churches in Northern Cyprus have been converted, and many are still in the process of becoming mosques. This practice has sparked considerable contempt in the Greek Cypriot community, and is likely to complicate reconciliation with the Turkish Cypriots.

We do not have an American “religion” with places of worship. Instead we have national shrines like the National Mall in Washington, D.C.; the National Cemetery in Arlington, VA and, now, Ground Zero in New York, NY. Radical Islamist had declared war on America. They consider us to be infidels and are intent on either conquering or destroying us. What better way for radical Islamist to demonstrate their “victory” over the U.S., in the tradition of Muhammad convert the pantheon of the Ka’aba, than erecting an Mosque or Islamic Center on, over and as close as possible to a national shrine like Ground Zero.

Is the concern expressed wrong, discriminatory or otherwise out of place? If there did not exist this documented history and tradition of Muslims reappropriating conquered shrines, Churches and Temple to serve as Mosques then it would absolutely be out of line. Against this historical backdrop and in this context, the concern over a Mosque or Islamic near or adjacent to Ground Zero is fully justified.

[Much of the historical information contained in this post is drawn from Wikipedia].

“Catholic priests in Poland were arrested and either executed immediately or sent to the camps, where they were beaten severely and treated even more harshly for their beliefs in Jesus, if they were caught saying Mass, praying the Rosary, etc. etc. Fr. Kolbe was left for dead after being severely beaten by a guard who kept asking him, “And NOW do you believe??” “Yes, I still believe…” was his reply… until he was beaten unconscious. In fact, if you go to Auschwitz, as I have, you will see that one of the heads of the Nazi party said that their mission was to rid the world of “Catholics, Jews, Poles, and gypsies” (this quote is on the wall there, in that order) through abortion, forced sterilization, and the concentration camps.”
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Not the whole story. The Wehrmacht, also, had Catholic chaplains.
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“The position of chaplain in the Nazi army was one characterized by moral dilemmas and obvious contradictions. As in all wars the chaplains first had to grapple with the morality of the war itself. Second, once that bridge had been successfully crossed, how one could, as a pastor, knowingly serve a regime whose ideology was so radical and that fostered, in the best times, a policy of benign neglect toward the Church. However, the chaplains did not choose this service, but were conscripted into the army. One could argue that they ministered to the soldiers in time of war just as they would have to their parishioners in peacetime. ”
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http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/133p/133p04papers/ALewisChaplains046.htm
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“Pope John Paul II had to become a Catholic priest in secret because all known Catholic priests in Poland were arrested and either executed immediately or sent to the camps, where they were beaten severely and treated even more harshly for their beliefs in Jesus, if they were caught saying Mass, praying the Rosary, etc. etc…”
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False
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“On completion of his studies at the seminary in Kraków, Karol Wojtyła was ordained as a priest on All Saints’ Day, 1 November 1946,[30] by the Archbishop of Kraków, Cardinal Sapieha.[28][46][47] He was then sent to study theology in Rome, at the Pontifical International Athenaeum Angelicum,[46][47] where he earned a licentiate and later a doctorate in sacred theology.[13] This doctorate, the first of two, was based on the Latin dissertation The Doctrine of Faith According to Saint John of the Cross.

He returned to Poland in the summer of 1948 with his first pastoral assignment in the village of Niegowić, fifteen miles from Kraków. Arriving at Niegowić during harvest time, his first action was to kneel down and kiss the ground.[48] This gesture, adapted from French saint Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney,[48] would become one of his ‘trademarks’ during his Papacy.”
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See wikipedia Pope John Paul II.
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“Thousands of Catholics were killed by the Nazis, too.”
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True, but, here is a partial list of Muslims killed in 9/11:
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“Partial List of Muslim 9/11 Victims:

Note: This list is as yet incomplete and unconfirmed. It has been compiled from the Islamic Circle of North America, the Newsday victims database, and reports from other major news organizations. The victims’ ages, employers, or other personal information is included when available, along with links to further information or photos.

Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.’s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid”
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So, as law abiding, peaceful and (without having any ties to the religion other than having had a friends over the years who are Muslim) arguably “true” Muslims died at the hands of terrorists.
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And Liberal Catholics were murdered by Fascists who were still members of the Catholic Church during the Holocaust.
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Erwin Rommel, who plotted to kill Hitler with a few others was, apparently, inspired by his Catholic faith that he should do so to end the Holocaust.
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So, sorry to tell you, it is exactly like having a Catholic Church open a three minute (I guess one and a half mile trip) from one of the death camps since those areas are traveled by car.
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The Mosque will be a three minute walk from Ground Zero, not visible from Ground Zero and not en route to Ground Zero.
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Many members of the SS were Catholic, attending church regularly and, believed that they were not sinning when running the death camps. Perhaps there were many reasons for it, but they were not corrected by The Church until after the war.

The communists turned the Cathedral of the Christ the Saviour in Moscow into a swimming pool. Now it has been reconstructed so you wouldn’t know the difference. It is beautiful. But then again, it was a nice place to swim.

I remember much of this due to the big controversy twenty years ago about the Convent at Auschwitz.
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“The Auschwitz cross is a cross erected near the Auschwitz concentration camp. In 1979, the newly elected Polish Pope John Paul II said mass on the grounds of the Auschwitz II (Birkenau) extermination camp to some 500,000 people. An 8.6 metre (26 ft) tall cross was erected there for the purpose, and removed after the event.[1]

Carmelite nuns opened a convent near Auschwitz I in 1984. After some Jewish groups called for the removal of the convent, representatives of the Catholic Church agreed in 1987. One year later the Carmelites erected the large cross from the 1979 mass near their site, just outside Block 11, the notorious torture prison in Auschwitz I, visible from within the camp. The Catholic Church ordered the Carmelites to move by 1989, but they remained until 1993, leaving the large cross behind”
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_cross
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Since I was a practicing Catholic as a teenager and in college, I remember how Jews were arguing that Catholics had been fascists with no exceptions.
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Like you, I knew of the exceptions who hid Jews, etc.
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However, the Catholic Church was, at it’s very best, cowardly in their approach to the Holocaust.
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Even though one of the dead is a distant cousin of mine, compared to Auschwitz, 9/11 was nothing.
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Why do we let Germans into NYC after the German terrorist attack of Black Tom explosion on July 30, 1916 if we hold grudges?

please check out http://www.islamicsolutions.com/do-they-even-know-what-islam-is/

“We do not have an American “religion” with places of worship. Instead we have national shrines like the National Mall in Washington, D.C.; the National Cemetery in Arlington, VA and, now, Ground Zero in New York, NY.’
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First, I know of no New Yorkers at all who want to keep Ground Zero as a hole in the ground.
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Second, the Mosque will be in a former warehouse for the Burlington Coat Factory.
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Even if you compare the National Mall to a house of Worship, a closed warehouse for Burlington Coat Factory is 0% similar to a house of worship unless you consider consumerism as our national religion in which case they would build the Mosque on Fifth Avenue in Midtown where people shop, not that obscure unused building.

Patrick,

I find your commentary somewhat confusing. You make the analogy that the World Trade centers were this countries equivalent symbol. This seems supported by the fact that it was targeted in the first place.

But then you imply that the vacant lot is no longer a symbol, justifying this because New Yorkers do not wanted it an empty park and the particular available adjacent building is not in fact the exact property.

So at first you recognize the generality of symbols and appearances, but then you divert into productive use, local opinion, and that the precise location / facility is not impacted.

It appears that although you recognize the propoganda concern here, you are piecing together incidental details as support for rebutting Seriously’s point.

For my part, I believe that there is definitely marketing at work in this upsize to a new building, whether for private gain or as a symbolic victory. And regardless of this moderates group intended purposes and likely local positive impact and potential earnings, fundamentalist groups may see it as a symbol of Islamic superiority and capping a previous victory. I think many understandably find this truth disturbing.

But it is what we do in America: tear down and rebuild, seek opportunity and capitalize on it. Perhaps the situation would have less sting to many if there had been a grander response, more American response at ground zero: tear down and rebuild, seek opportunity and capitalize on it. It’s what we do.

Todd

“If there did not exist this documented history and tradition of Muslims reappropriating conquered shrines, Churches and Temple to serve as Mosques then it would absolutely be out of line.”

That is Islamophobia. It is holding Muslims in NYC responsible for things done by a few terrorists and by some government in some places at some times long ago and far from NYC.

There are over a billion Muslims and people say they should not have any place of worship within a mile of the old WTC site in any direction.

It’s actually even worse than that. Israel’s overarching mission has been ethnic cleansing since Day 1. Case in point: prior to the 1967 war, the Jewish National Fund (JNF) collected money, much of it from children in the US, for the purpose of planting trees. How benign we might think? The real motive was to use tree planting as a legal ruse to seize “abandoned” Palestinian land. The Palestinians were war refugees who were forbidden to return. Since they were no longer working their land and Israeli tree planters were, legal title would pass to the Israelis.

After the 1967 war, Jordan’s King Hussein renounced his country’s claim to the West Bank, on the assumption that this would now become a Palestinian state, but Golda Meir dragged her feet, even though her generals had concluded before the war that holding the West Bank would be a security nightmare. The rest is history.

Israel is now the world’s first nuclear-armed apartheid (read fascist) state. How does that square with American security interests?

“Could it be these brothers and sisters of mine – in Europe and elsewhere – fear and hate Islam, because they realize that Islam could lead to social, political and economic liberation, enlightenment and empowerment for all people everywhere? And that Islam means the beginning of a new world order of social justice, equality and true emancipation and liberty for all the children of Adam, not only in Europe but also in all other parts of the world? And not just to people as individuals but to entire societies and cultures? ”

Sorry to be a naysayer, but any other belief systems espouse the Muslim values indicated in this article, The Christian bible also calls upon us to work hard as if working for the Lord, etc.Christians still face persecution. An exhortation to strive for better will often be perceived as reprimand or bother.

Additionally, in predominantly Muslim countries we do not find the above referenced promises realized. It appears that Muslims seeking this empowerment are struggling against fundamentalist, constraining beliefs. Islam has not had a reformation. This is a primary factor in the fear response you are addressing.

Todd

I believe the point being made was that the cause for this large expansion and repurposing of their existing place of worship could be understandably viewed with suspicion / concern based upon historical context and thereby a valid matter for discussion. The references were not based off the actions of a few terrorist but Islamic socieities.

This is not an indivudal or simple group seeking a little abode to conduct private worship but clearly a statement and an outreach. Whether for positive bridge building, material gain, or symbolic victory, marketing is at play here. We always have an option to consider the marketing agenda and we have limited such marketing’s placement.

Todd

Here, Here. As someone who has dated many progressive Jewish women over the years it was always astonishing to me that every single one of them had some of the most bigoted Fathers I have ever come across who while ostensibly believing in multiculturalism would stop short or outright attack any discussion of Muslim rights or Palestine.

When did Archie Bunker become Jewish ?

“According to Rauf, the location was not chosen because of its proximity to Ground Zero. He said that he has worked in the vicinity for years, previously as imam of the Masjid al-Farah in Tribeca, which he joined in 1983.

“I have been a part of that neighborhood,” Rauf said. “My mosque and my community [were] impacted in 9/11; some of my congregation were victims of 9/11…. We see ourselves as part of the community.””

http://www.forward.com/articles/128347/

Comparing 3000 people who happened to work in an office building killed by some Islamic terrorists, who amount to little more than 3000 worldwide to the systematic murder of millions of Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals and Mentally Ill by a fascist dictatorship, yeah he should resign. ADL can now be said to be an endless parody of Godwin’s Law.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

South Africa and Israel worked together to achieve nuclear weaponry because both were looking over their shoulders at the time at UN intervention. Realize JFK was so concerned about Israel’s nuclear program he almost started voting against Israel in the UN, he was certainly leaning that way before he was killed.

The Neocons have legions of newly made millionaires and billionaires from the military industrial complex which receives 50 cents on the dollar for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. So 500 billion dollars or so, and it almost all went to conservative CEOs and their defense companies, how did that happen, was it magic? They have enough money now to fund the build up to war with Iran and receive more billions in war profiteering before they die, Yee Haw, Democracy!

So, because the bad guys are bad, we must be bad too? I never understand this idea – “They act immorally, so we can too! Even though moral action is, arguably, what distinguishes us from them!”

Thanks to JK for initiating a good discussion. I guess we have to decide on issues like this based on our practices and laws. If the people in the neighbourhood support the building of the mosque then the rest of us should stay out of the process.

I don’t care what the Saudis do nor the Vatican within its mini-state. But I care deeply about religious freedom here.I have noted before, and posters have provided details, that Muslims died in the horrific incidents in NYK and elsewhere. Foreigners of many nationalities also died in the WTC.

What have we come to when we allow Palin and Newt to set the tone of the debate, aided by the specious reasoning of the ADL?

Mr Klein and all of you who whine bigotry intolerance racism know NOTHING about islam or it’s history. Have any of you read the q-Ran, the hadith, the sura, and/or studied islamic history? Even a little? Do you know the circumstances behind the construction of the mosque in Cordoba, Spain and wonder why this mosque was named after it? To all the people who comment on the “tiny number of extremists who have hijacked/misinterpreted this religion”.. What is it about about this religion/ideology (other than what is blatantly written in its texts) that have inspired a “tiny number of extremists” to misinterpret islam and murder/maim/rape people in its name every single day for the last 1400 years? Is it a coincidence that these tiny number of extremists who belong to one of the tens of thousands of “religion of peace” militant groups around the world which have committed violent/deadly attacks against civilians in New York and Thailand and Iraq and Afghanistan and China India and the Sudan and Algeria and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Australia and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and Nepal and the Maldives and Argentina and Mali and Angola and the Ukraine and Uganda and Somalia and North Carolina and Uzbekistan and Tajikistan and Norway and Sweden and Greenland and Iceland and every single nation on earth with a muslim population?

Have you read the news today? How man people died in the last 24 hours in the name of islam?

What IS IT about islam that inspires these attacks? What about islam allowed it to spread (CONQUER) from a dirty little cave near mecca through the Arabian peninsula, north Africa, Spain and into Europe, South West Asia, Indonesia and China within a few centuries… Do you think the muslim ARMIES simply charmed most of the civilized world with their smiles and good looks and stories of love and peace? What IS IT about islam that inspires such a PROLIFIC “tiny minority of extremists?” And don’t say it’s the fault of George Bush, the Neocons, the Israelis, the Crusaders because these attacks began the day mohammad invented his ideology 1400+ years ago and the NEVER stopped. And tell me why the HUGE populations of “moderate” muslims simply don’t DELETE the passages in the q-Ran and hadith and sura that inspire murder, rape, genocide, theft, conquest and global domination? The passages are as clear as can be… Why don’t they express the same outrage over the daily carnage in the name of islam as they do over cartoons and Teddy Bears? I mean… islamic violence in GREENLAND?

Most of you people are quick to cry “Freedom of Religion” which the ADL and no opponent of the mosque is disputing yet you don’t give a damn about freedom of speech… ALL over the world any criticism of islam is met with threats of violence.. and freedom of speech is backing down…. rather, pc liberal appeasing cowards in America and the West are backing down. I still can’t watch South Park Episode 200 and 201 and an episode from 2004 was removed from Netflix because its “insulting to islam” (and met with the obligatory threat of violence (which was protected free speech). There is a non binding UN resolution (62/145) against the defamation of religion (sponsored by, yes, you guessed it, the OIC, OF COURSE)… That means that criticizing religion is now a violation of international law.. More concessions to appease the OIC… in case, you know, they get mad and kill us.

We can’t watch South Park, despite the freedom of speech, because of muslim sensitivities but muslims can build a megamosque at Ground Zero DESPITE American sensitivies.

And why can’t we talk about it? It’s about the myth of multiculturalism and cultural relativism that we, as a free and open society, have become fanatical. Now, any critique of any culture (other than Christianity, of course) is met with accusations of bigotry, hatred, racism that not only have the power to neuter legitimate criticism and negate discussion but can destroy reputations and careers and lives. It’s NO different than McCarthyism in the 50s and accusations of heresy in the dark ages.

Survivors of Bad Things may be entitled to irrational feelings. What they’re not entitled to is foisting their personal irrational feelings on the rest of society and making us conform to what they acknowledge as irrational, or bigoted.
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Not all of us who went through 9/11 emerged with hate, fear and bigotry in our hearts. These sad sacks who use a 9 year old tragic event to justify their hate need to get some therapy.

lol, davem.. Islamophobia.. capitalized! What a joke of a word… what a joke of a concept in a free society. When someone says “islamophobia” they are really saying I’m going to trump your RATIONAL and LEGITIMATE facts, questions, discussion, criticism about the most violent intolerant and oppressive ideology in human history by accusing you of being IRRATIONAL.

“You make the analogy that the World Trade centers were this countries equivalent symbol.”
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No, I did not intend to make the World Trade Center sound like a National Symbol.
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Historically, for it’s first ten years New Yorkers rejected it both aesthetically and commercially. It was not even fully occupied for the fist few years and was not choice real estate for many years.
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Even right before 9/11 for office space it was not as valuable as many parts of Mid-Town miles to the North.
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If (peacefully, of course) the twin towers were replaced with something near or somewhat greater in height but more attractive than two rectangular sticks in the ground many New Yorkers would have been thrilled.
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It, absolutely, was not a national symbol until after 9/11. Along with the Grand Canyon and other American treasures, New York’s contribution was the Statue of Liberty, not the World Trade Center.
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What the terrorists and some American movie writers Lawrence Wright, Menno Meyjes and Edward Zwick thought would happen after 9/11 would be like the movie Siege where, in response to terrorism every Muslim in all five boroughs of NYC is locked up at Shea Stadium.
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To build within a Mosque within a mile of Ground Zero weakens the terrorist narrative.
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But Burlington Coat Factory itself is not symbolic of anything other than men’s clothing.
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Marshal law in NYC would be a victory for terrorists.
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The Patriot Act was a victory for terrorists.
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(For Airport Security, I knew people in the business pre-9/11 and we should have always had something like TSA – but more efficient.)
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Building on Ground Zero would have been unacceptable. Building within sight of Ground Zero would have been unacceptable.
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Building a quarter mile from Ground Zero is a great compromise. If you are Muslim, you know that you are not hated and nobody wants to kill you and your family. If you are not Muslim, you will not know anything about the Mosque unless you look for it.
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I am an atheist. I am very uninterested in houses of worship and have not been in one since my father’s funeral. (Catholic – no not Muslim). I will not see the Mosque but will be glad to know it is there.

That is the kind of Islamophobic thinking Abe Foxman has associated the Jewish community with. Of course he denounces them. But a decision in favor of Abe will be a huge victory for Sarah Palin and the conservatives. It will be a big win for them over the liberals in NYC.

“Previously the site had been occupied by a Christian church dedicated to Saint Vincent that had been built by the Visigoths around 500 CE. Before that, when Córdoba was a provincial capital in the Roman Empire, the site was occupied by a temple dedicated to Janus, the double-headed god of doorways and gates.”

http://witcombe.sbc.edu/sacredplaces/cordoba.html

The Palin crew is upset that a beautiful mosque was built there. Jews are supposed to sign onto that way of looking at things?

“Córdoba was the capital of the Spanish Muslim dynasty of the Ummayads (756-1031).”

They got along extraordinarily well with Jews. That period was a Golden Age for Jews.

If the word Antisemitism is capitalized, then so should a word meaning the fear of Muslims.
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There are millions of Muslims in America.
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If the Muslim religion requires or condones political violence Detroit would be an be Mogadishu, Toledo would be up in flames and I would be far, far too busy underneath this desk with an AK-47 fighting off the Muslims in my neighborhood in Queens.
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What do the Muslims I see do?
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They serve me coffee at Dunkin Donuts and, when they can not find Halal food (Food Muslims may eat) they are buying Kosher food. (The difference being that it Kosher food is blessed by a Rabbi and Halal food is blessed by an Imam – one reason why Jewish neighborhoods often have a large number of Muslims, too in NYC.)
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I am as unlikely to go to a Mosque as the Pope is, but, any fear of the Muslims I see and, in previous jobs worked with, is unfounded unless you fear morning coffee served by pretty, dark skinned college age girls.

“They got along extraordinarily well with Jews. That period was a Golden Age for Jews.”

Wow, what an unbelievable comment! Dave, seriously.. stop posting such utter garbage. Jews living under muslim rule (DHIMMITUDE) was their Golden Age?

You’re one of two things, dave… a liar or a moron.. which is it?

“And tell me why the HUGE populations of “moderate” muslims simply don’t DELETE the passages in the q-Ran and hadith and sura that inspire murder, rape, genocide, theft, conquest and global domination?”
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The same reasons Christians stopped editing the bible after it’s recognition by Rome.

“10 strange verses in the Bible

I’ve read the entire Old and New Testament of the King James Bible and there are many verses that were strikingly bizarre at first glance. A second glance only served to make them even more bizarre. In this list of 10 verses that are never preached on, I learned two things: one, different translations of the Bible can differ significantly, and two, I’m not the only one who found some of the verses extremely odd.

I’ve loved the “go up thou bald head” verse ever since I came across it.

To illustrate how much translations can differ, I’ve included the verses as quoted from the site along with the version from the King James version. It’s interesting to compare the two.

10. 2 Kings 2:23-24
NKJV

Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

KJV

And he went up from thence unto Beth-el: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

9. Mark 14:51-52
NASB

A young man was following Him, wearing nothing but a linen sheet over his naked body; and they seized him. But he pulled free of the linen sheet and escaped naked.

KJV

And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him: And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked.

8. Deuteronomy 23:1
ESV

No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

KJV

He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

7. Genesis 38:8-10
NASB

Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.” Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also.

KJV

And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

6. 1 Samuel 18:25-27
ESV

Then Saul said, “Thus shall you say to David, ‘The king desires no bride-price except a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, that he may be avenged of the king’s enemies.’” Now Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines. And when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well to be the king’s son-in-law. Before the time had expired, David arose and went, along with his men, and killed two hundred of the Philistines. And David brought their foreskins, which were given in full number to the king, that he might become the king’s son-in-law. And Saul gave him his daughter Michal for a wife.

KJV

And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, The king desireth not any dowry, but an hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king’s enemies. But Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines. And when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well to be the king’s son in law: and the days were not expired. Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king’s son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife.

5. Exodus 4:24-25
NASB

Now it came about at the lodging place on the way that the LORD met him and sought to put him to death. Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son’s foreskin and threw it at Moses’ feet, and she said, “You are indeed a bridegroom of blood to me.”

KJV

And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.

4. Ezekiel 16:17
NIV

You also took the fine jewelry I gave you, the jewelry made of my gold and silver, and you made for yourself male idols and engaged in prostitution with them.

KJV

Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,

3. Ezekiel 23:19-20
NET

Yet she increased her prostitution, remembering the days of her youth when she engaged in prostitution in the land of Egypt. She lusted after their genitals – as large as those of donkeys, and their seminal emission was as strong as that of stallions.

KJV

Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt. For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

2. Judges 3:21-22
ESV

And Ehud reached with his left hand, took the sword from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly. And the hilt also went in after the blade, and the fat closed over the blade, for he did not pull the sword out of his belly; and the dung came out.

KJV

And Ehud put forth his left hand, and took the dagger from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly: And the haft also went in after the blade; and the fat closed upon the blade, so that he could not draw the dagger out of his belly; and the dirt came out.

1. Deuteronomy 25:11-12
NASB

If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.

KJV

When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.”
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http://dan.hersam.com/2006/12/06/10-strange-verses-in-the-bible/
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This is just the strange things.
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There are offensive passages about war and complete religious intolerance in the bible if you look hard enough.

“You’re one of two things, dave… a liar or a moron.. which is it?”
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Andy, look up Cordoba and you will learn that whoever taught you about other religions is a liar and that you are at least being (if not characteristically) a moron yourself.

patrick, i guarantee that i am thoroughly informed about the muslim CONQUEST of Spain, islam, and islamic history. I would be happy to educate you if you care to debate.

yes, but things got much better under the spanish inquisition. so tolerant, those christians. actually, when the church kicked us out, it was the ottomans who took us in. by this evidence i would say christians hate jews far more than muslims do.

to be fair, the inquisition didn’t expel all the jews. many were killed or forcibly converted.

Thou shalt not steal.

“I would be happy to educate you if you care to debate.”
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Please do send links if you have any.
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As I said, Greece and Armenia were, during the Ottoman empire remained Christian without being forced to covert.
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As Benjoya is alluding to, please keep this in the context that with religion being the driving force of medieval life, religious tolerance is relatively very, very new to humanity.
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Please feel free to give examples of temples and churches being taken over in Cordoba and Christians being forced to covert as a matter of regular practice.
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Then please put this into the context of the Spanish Inquisition against the Los Conversos (The converts to Christianity of Jewish and Muslim ancestry who chose conversion over expulsion some of whom may have secretly maintained their old faith in private.)
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Please do educate us all.

oops 36.2 belongs here.

“But the Jews had been so much subjected to cruelty and maltreatment for a period of more than a hundred wars, that a passing ray of kindness was not able to reconcile them. The Jews at last came to the resolution, encouraged by the frequent insurrections which had taken place in latter years, to shake off the yoke of the Visigothic tyrants with weapons in their hands; and they therefore entered into a correspondence with the Arabs in Africa, who were to cross over the straits of Gibraltar and lend them a helping hand.”

http://www.jewish-history.com/Occident/volume7/jan1850/visigoths.html

Now people think the Visigoths were wonderful?

“The Jewish minority, which had welcomed the Muslim takeover, did not suffer from the Muslim attacks on rebellious Christians, particularly prevalent in Cordoba.

Ḥisdai, head of the Jewish community, was in charge of trade and commerce and foreign affairs, traveling to the generally hostile northern Christian provinces of Spain on diplomatic missions. Cordoba was then the center of Muslim civilization in the West and an important seat of Jewish culture.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0020_0_20188.html

Why would Jews lament the Muslim conquest of Spain? How many Christian religious leaders today think that was an awful period in human history?

The question you responded to was about islam and the q-Ran, not about Christianity and the bible.

Your answer, besides being tu quoque was completely wrong.

Since you seem interested in the question I’ll repost if for you:

And tell me why the HUGE populations of “moderate” muslims simply don’t DELETE the passages in the q-Ran and hadith and sura that inspire murder, rape, genocide, theft, conquest and global domination?”

benjoya, saying that the Jews were better off as Dhimmis under sharia law than during the inquisition is like saying that Blacks in America were better off as slaves under the protection of their owners than they were under the kkk and Jim Crow.

That being said.. why is every question about islam and muslims and the q-Ran answered with a statement about christianity?

America is “hate filled?” This would logically mean that you, your friends, your acquaintances, and your co-workers are likely to be “hate filled.”

But of course you and the rest of your circle are the exceptions that prove the rule. Right? It must be that the rest of us Americans are hate filled.

But, as I look around at my friends and acquaintances, I see that they have become quite adept at concealing their hatred from me as I from them.

Let me ask you something: if I hate bigotry, am I hate filled?

Using logical reasoning, you can’t support that statement by using the Constitution (which includes the Bill of Rights) or the Bible. I say this not as an opinion but as a statement of fact, and as a Christian.

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This is a prime example of when liberals will utilize the Constitution and historical documents to justify their perverted interpretation of these great documents.
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I did not state the Constitution or the Bill of Rights said “Christianity was the religion held by most if not all of those who can to this country seeking religious freedom”. Nope, but that is what my liberal loons have said.
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History is the guide in this instance, and provides us all with the historical facts. While it was a predominantly Christian motive, the founding Fathers were able to put into the Constitution and subsequent writings recognizing everyone’s freedom of religion to choose which ever religion they wanted to practice. It did not however give the right to any one religion to force their brand of religion upon the rest or even a small group. It also does not give any religion the right to build a new church or a mosque any place they want to build it. That can be subject to zoning or other bans as is the will of the majority of the people.
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Just as I cannot set up a porno shop, and call it a church just to skirt the zoning restrictions that particular community defines as how they want the land to be used. This is where local ordinances and zoning laws can trump the Federal laws, even those written into the Constitution or Bill of Rights.
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Despite the liberal interpretation of historical fact, those founding Fathers have written many times it is up to the individual to decide for themselves how and by what means they communicate with their God. Period. This is why other forms of religion were tolerated. Keyword: TOLERATED.
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But, history as it has been shown over and over again is replete with examples of Muslim extremists who will demand a culture or group of people give up their old religious ways and teachings and accept those of Mohammed. As it was so eloquently stated by many on here, “even their churches were either torn down, burned or turned into mosques”.
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Tolerance teaches us we should all try to get along. To allow each of us to decide what is right or wrong for us individually. It does not however permit one religion to dominate over another. This is why this mosque is so dividing for most people. It is history which teaches us Muslims will not be satisfied with just building a mosque, they will want to then go out and destroy other churches, other synagogues, other religions, and those who inhabit them.

A friend in Manhattan just told me that the proposed mosque in NYK is a part of a community centre within which there will be prayer facilities, No minarets, and no meuzzin calling the faithful to prayer (and waking up the neighbourhood). There is to be no such building on Ground Zero. Why is this lie being repeated?

Because if the rw repeats something enough it filters through and becomes a topic for the traditional media to make an issue. The people of Manhattan have no problem with the community center, why do the rest of you who oppose think it is your business. Go kvetch about something else.

By the way, the rw and some pathetic blue dogs made it quite clear that the happenings at ground zero is not a national concern by voting down medical care for survivors and responders to 9/11. Reactionary Reps like Joe Barton felt it was none of our business as a country. These are the same Reps that throw 9/11 around as a test of loyalty.

It’s threads like these that remind me that for many people, religion isn’t about worshiping the Creator of the Universe but rather just identifying who your supposed to hate. I have news. The number of Creators of the Universe is somewhere between zero and one. At some point, we’re going to have to learn to share.

If Muslims (or anybody) suceed in converting the US population to Islam, I’ll buy them all a beer. Despite many competing faiths hoping to corner the US faith market over the past couple hundred of years, none have suceeded and none ever will. Nations devoted to one faith only exist with a heavy dose of fascism. And as long as we keep Rusty and his quill far away from the Constitution, we’ll be safe as a nation of tollerant, patriotic, God fearing, bigotted, atheist, traitors seeking to destroy one another with compassion and mercy.

36.2

1. We’re discussing islam, not christianity. Why do you bring up the visigoths and the inquisition? I’m an atheist. I’m not going to defend christianity. I despise the intolerance (among many things) of all the abrahamic religions. But islam is the absolute worst and I constantly am amazed how it deflects all criticism, particularly from progressive liberal non muslims.

2. Dhimmitude

because you don’t speak for the “rest” of the people. i was born on 15th & 2nd ave, probably before you were even thought of, and i object!

which one are you?

american muslim
muslim american
american jew
jewish american
none of the above

there is a subtle difference between the first two. the next two names are no longer used extensively.

don’t want to offend their sensitivities!

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2010/08/01/14892241.html

As the saying goes, it’s better to see one time than to hear seven times. Just have a look at the following video of Muslim celebration in Vienna:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9ce_1274653986&c=1

Who could say after viewing this he still doesn’t see what is at stake?

That’s the shia muslims celebrating the day of ashura… Nobody really likes that in their towns, especially the sunni muslim majorities where shia muslims are routinely slaughtered. Of course, sufi and ahmadiyya muslims are routinely slaughtered by both the sunni and shia… and, in Africa, sectarianism is subordinate to out right racism as Arab muslims slaughter black muslims (e.g. darfur). Yep, the religion of peace and tolerance.

islam is the absolute worst

not for jews it isn’t — the point of my previous comment. if you’d rather have been a jew in 19th century russia than in 19th century turkey, you’re, well, poorly informed. if you’d rather have ben a jew in 20th century europe than in 20th century iran, you’re, um, a masochist?

What percentage of Tea Party types who oppose this also oppose Islam and think the world would be better off if all Muslims converted to Christianity?

lol! i’d feel ridiculous breaking down the word to show where you went wrong so for now just keep twirling your whiskers and smirking at your own cleverness

“It did not however give the right to any one religion to force their brand of religion upon the rest or even a small group.”
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Agreed.
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“It also does not give any religion the right to build a new church or a mosque any place they want to build it. That can be subject to zoning or other bans as is the will of the majority of the people.”
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As both the citizens of NYC in surveys and the planning board approved it due to it not being a problem in any logistical way whatsoever and chosen for that reason, the issue is, as you say, a local one which was one by American Muslims.
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“It does not however permit one religion to dominate over another. This is why this mosque is so dividing for most people.”
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Yes, because people who are either Dominists or sympathetic to Dominionists such as yourself want to force Christianity upon everybody even when the City of New York and the huge majority of it’s people who are a large majority of Christian faiths believe that there is already as much access as anybody would possibly want to Christian faiths in NYC do not wish to be un-American and impose Christianity by force upon these Muslims who just want a place to pray and, using their own funds an outreach center for Muslims to participate in interfaith dialog.
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You, Rusty, are the Ayatollah here.
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Muslims are not knocking on my door. In my five years in this neighborhood, no Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses or any other religion has done door to door canvassing. One Evangelical-like Protestant group gave out granola bars and asked all of us to see a movie with them when I was in Union Square. (I presumed they were involved with the opening of a store or something when they handed me the granola bar and I gave it away to a co-worker since I am not into granola). That is the closest thing I have experienced along with Evangelicals in Boston who handed me literature to having a religion imposed upon me.
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Muslims are not giving out food, snacks, showing movies or imposing on anybody anywhere near as often as Evangelicals, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons do.
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Muslims are as quiet as Jews (who do not seek converts) and Catholics (who are not assertive about seeking coverts – at least in this region of the country.)
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So, it is local decision. The Mosque advocates won (as Christian Churches exist nearby it is not an exception or exemption of any kind). These Muslims, as American Muslims are, keep their religion at home and among themselves unlike many groups of Christians and Ayatollah Rusty and Dominists wish to forbid them from opening up.

Simple answer: religions which believe in holy books, such as Christians, Jews, Hindus and Muslims – most likely far, far more – do not believe a human being can edit the world of God.
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No religion which believes that their God left a written text has been known to actively edit it.
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BTW: Arabian Christians of all sects use the Arabian word for God “Allah” exactly the same way Spanish Speakers use the word “Dios” it is not a special name for a God, it just translates to the word “God”.

but banning any muslim affiliated buildings in the area IS just that sort of political statement. it states that even the sort of muslim that celebrate multiculturalism is in part responsible for the attack and they should lie low for a while.
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and using the catastrophe for promotion? the attack made clear a desperate need for exactly what these builders are trying to promote. it is a noble response, not a cash-in at all

“…no meuzzin calling the faithful to prayer (and waking up the neighbourhood).”
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Outside of overwhelmingly Muslim countries Muslims do not have people calling out prayers on loud speakers.
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If I understand correctly democratic Turkey does not have that either, despite being overwhelmingly Muslim and once the seat of the Muslim Ottoman Empire.
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Horns, traffic, people in and out of bars until 4:00 in the morning and garbage trucks are more than enough for New Yorkers. Outside of bell towers on Christian Churches, nobody would allow prayers to be announced on loudspeakers in NYC. Until you get used to it, NYC can be a loud place in many neighborhoods all day long.
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(Go out to the suburbs after living in NYC and you will know the meaning of the word “a deafening silence” for the first hour or so when falling asleep – too damn quiet out in the burbs.)

great post patrick

Since most Airport security as we have it now is Security theater anyway, I see it as no threat, but, I agree, a dumb exemption.
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A fair compromise is to make sure that the women only show their faces to women. This should be less offensive or inoffensive to Muslim women.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater

Every culture brings on some disturbances at times:
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(I had three drinks at dinner and saw a performance of Chieftains at New York Town Hall myself.)

“Dhimmitude is a neologism first found in French denoting an attitude of concession, surrender and appeasement towards Islamic demands. It is derived by adding the productive suffix -tude to the Arabic language adjective dhimmi, which literally means protected and refers to a non-Muslim subject of a sharia law state.

Dhimmitude has several distinct, but related meanings depending on the author; its scope may be historical only, contemporary only, or both. It may encompass the whole system of dhimma, look only at its subjects (dhimmis), or even apply it outside of any established system of dhimma.”
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“According to law professor H. Patrick Glenn of McGill University, “Today it is said that the dhimmi are ‘excluded from the specifically Muslim privileges, but on the other hand they are excluded from the specifically Muslim duties’ while (and here there are clear parallels with western public and private law treatment of aliens – Fremdenrecht, la condition de estrangers), [f]or the rest, the Muslim and the dhimmi are equal in practically the whole of the law of property and of contracts and obligations.”[194]

Pagans are not afforded the rights and protections of the dhimma contract. Sharia attributes different legal rights to different groups; in practice, this consists of less rights for non-Muslims.[195]”
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(Sharia Law, Wikipedia, Sharia for non-Muslims.)
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What is impressive is that during the same time Christians were murdering non-Christians, this was Muslim law. For it’s time, it is remarkably tolerant.
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If you wish to say that the Muslim religion has never gone through a process parallel to the Renaissance or the Enlightenment, I would only partially agree with you since there are many schools of Islam.
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Wahhabism, which the Taliban and Al Qada are, is incredibly reactionary but,Sufis are very modern, for example.
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The most devout and strict do not wish to live outside of a Muslim country much less New York City.
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Even among the Wahhhabi, terrorists are a small, small, small minority.

Because some of us are more intelligent than others.
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We could of course, get into the Crusades, and of course, who could forget Bosnia?
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Keep cherry picking beng55. It’s not going to help much. If I wanted, I could watch the 9/11 videos to whip up anger, but I’m a better man than that.
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Too bad you are not. All you are is an ignorant bigot trying to dress in the cloth of intelligence…

Of course beng55 and andythefisher, I wouldn’t be so crass as to point out that you are turning this phrase, of your own coinage:
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“Yep, the religion of peace and tolerance.”
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Into a rather glaring example of self-contradiction. I like it.
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BTW, how does that wall taste? You know, the one you just walked into?
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Ahyuh Ahyuh…

Good, put it up for a vote in the precinct or district and allow the local voters to decide if they want another mosque. Let them decide for the rest of the nation if they want to desecrate a recently memorialized area of this nation.
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Oh while you are at it, why not construct a Japanese shrine near the USS Arizona commemorating all of the dead men which still lie entombed in that shrine. Same deal right?
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The outrage would be unprecedented to say the least.
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While you are at it, click on this link. At least the music is patriotic. Maybe your patriotism meter will quiver a little.
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http://www.worldtourist.us/honolulu01/memorials.html

“Good, put it up for a vote in the precinct or district and allow the local voters to decide if they want another mosque.”
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First, that is why we have a zoning board.
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Second, a majority of New Yorkers support it.
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“Let them decide for the rest of the nation if they want to desecrate a recently memorialized area of this nation.”
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What?
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First, Those are NEW YORK CITY dead people. It is a memorial to people in the New York City Tri-State area. It is not a part of Texas. It is not a part of Montana. It is not a part of Kansas.
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Second, it is in the Burlington Coat Factory Building.
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So, you are trying to tell me that once this tragedy happened that all planning and zoning for an area employing tens of thousands of people and housing about twenty thousand people is now under federal jurisdiction?
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So, if a Muslim throws firecrackers at your house, I guess I get to decide for your town that a sewage treatment plant will be located next door to your house and that a strip club serving big, heavy handed drinks open until 4:00 in the morning will be across the street from you?
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Even Ground Zero itself is New York City and New York’s local jurisdiction to decide for ourselves what we want. However, due to the nature of that issue, I can see that some – some – outside input is a good idea.
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The Mosque will not create greenhouse gasses which will spread far and wide.
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The Mosque will not be en route to Ground Zero.
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The Mosque will not block traffic for commuters and tourists.
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You right wingers are in love with local government until it benefits you to hate it and love federal jurisdiction.
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You are so in love with a particular interpretation of the Second Amendment and a convoluted reading of the constitution until the first amendment goes against what you want.
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You love “original intent” of an interpretation of the constitution unless, as it does with the Second Amendment, interfere with your agenda.
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You love freedom of speech and religion so long as you are the ones speaking or praying.
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You loved New York City terror victims when they were a rallying cry, but when they need medicine, you don’t care anymore.
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The mental gymnastics you do in your convoluted reasoning to be a right winger should get you a Gold Medal.
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You are unfamiliar with the term “consistency”.
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Unless or until you can show me how changing a closed building in NYC will impact Wyoming, Maine, The Carolinas and the Dakotas you are now contradicting everything you said you believed in about government.

I almost forgot:
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Europeans have national health care.
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Conservatives don’t care.
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Europeans were not going to join us in Iraq because they did not believe there were WMD.
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Conservatives don’t care.
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Europeans have nearly free education while ours is exorbitantly expensive.
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Conservatives don’t care.
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Europeans have strong unions.
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Conservatives don’t care.
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Europeans manged to succeed despite much higher taxes.
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Conservatives don’t care.
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Europeans allow gays in the military and have not had any problems.
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Conservatives don’t care.
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Europeans have gay marriage.
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Conservatives don’t care.
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Europeans are almost never allowed handguns and have far fewer murders.
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Conservatives don’t care.
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Now a few right wingers in Europe are turning against Muslim immigrants.
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Conservatives want us to EXACTLY LIKE France.
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Consistency! Please, be consistent.

How about using some of this fervor in the defense of freedom of speech for the erection of a Synagogue in Mecca? How about that?

We erect a Mosque in ground zero, the Saudis build a Synagogue in Mecca and Palestinians and Israelis share 50%-50% the religious sites in Jerusalem.

How about that?

It seems to me all you guys are very brave in advocating positions that never risk your death by stoning.

How about using some of this fervor in condenming the forcing of homosexuals into having a sex change in Iran.

You guys, including Mr Klein are a bunch of cowards that only fight when is safe and politically correct.

This was a very poor and biased article. A proper discussion would be to examine the objections people have (including Fox) towards that particular mosque at that location and then determine if the objections have merit. By ignoring such, the uninformed reader assumes that the objectors are lumping all Muslims and mosques together as some sort of anti-Muslim bigotry.

I have read the objections and found them not convincing enough to fully agree with them. Nor am I a supporter of Fox (I am against him despite being Jewish). But articles like this sway by emotion rather than by reason and thus perpetuate the public to be politically ignorant and easily manipulated.

For those who want better opinions and news coverage, consider starting a movement to politely communicate to writers like Mr. Klein to provide articles that sway by reason rather than by emotion. The point-of-view of both side of an issue should objectively be laid out and examined. When this is not done, the implied message is that the reader is too stupid to come to his or her own conclusions based on the facts and thus has to be force fed propaganda (left or right). This approach is called ‘interpretive journalism’ and is one of the reasons why modern journalism is of such a very low level of quality.

Hopefully, there will be enough readers who will use their power to politely write to news writers and news agencies to provide news and opinion pieces that educate rather than promote ideology through fear, anger and negative stereotyping.

It would be useful for Abe Foxman and his supporters to explain why what happened on 9/11 requires us to ban any Muslim prayer and worship from anywhere near Ground Zero.

I stayed up until 1121 EDT reading all this Mike Crapo, and not one argument against this project that is Constitutional. I heard Bullshiite about “historical precedent”, nonsense about eminent domain (yeah, like it’s I-95 going through Chester. PA or somethin’) and some utter lunacy about the Founders intending that the first Amendment only applied to Christians (from that dolt Rusty), even though there is no mention of this in the Constitution. We had the “Greatest Generation”, which seems to be in the process of being replaced by the Dumbest Generation.

It is immeasurably insensitive to even entertain the idea of building a Mosque at Ground Zero. Shame on those of you who would use the issue of tolerance to inflict such dishonor, pain, and suffering on our country by suggesting that we should include the very religion that inspired the attackers that caused such horrific damage and loss of life.

There must be no Mosque at Ground Zero.

“There must be no Mosque at Ground Zero.”
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It’s not at Ground Zero!
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It’s not en route to Ground Zero!
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It is not visible from Ground Zero!
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It is further away than a few churches from Ground Zero!
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It is the Burlington Coat Factory Building!
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It has already been approved!
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The building is being converted within the next couple of weeks. It is a NYC decision. It has been decided. It is not a federal decision. It is not going to impact you.
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First, learn facts and geography. Comment later.

Sadly with Abe Foxman’s help Sarah Palin has already partially won. It will not be called Cordoba House because Cordoba was the capital of the Ummayyads who defeated the Christian Visigoths. That defeat outrages the Tea Party crowd because for a long time Spain was not Christian. Why should Jews mourn Spain not having been Christian for a while? Judaism flourished under the Ummayyads while for most of the reign of the Visigoths Jews were severely persecuted.

An imbecile said…..

“Shame on those of you who would use the issue of tolerance to inflict such dishonor, pain, and suffering on our country by suggesting that we should include the very religion that inspired the attackers that caused such horrific damage and loss of life.

There must be no Mosque at Ground Zero.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++

No, shame on you for a). being so eager do take a whiz on the Constitution, and b). living a life of fear and constant bedwetting. You are pathetic…..

Nice that Joe Klein frames this as a freedom of speech & freedom of religion matter instead of what it is, a neutrality of public space matter.

Common sense dictates you don’t, for example, build a neo-nazi cultural center on top of auschwitz, you preserve the neutrality of the site. Unless you are Joe Klein and have something to prove to the world that is.

If Joe Klein could be troubled to read the Qur’an and its hadiths, he would come across this prophesy attributed to Mohammad: “The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: ‘Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’” (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176)

Antisemitism is the core of Islam, which seeks to destroy not only Jewish history (for instance, by claiming that Allah’s genies built the Temple of Solomon), but also the concept of secular ethics (in shari’a, murder is not a crime, but a “personal matter”). Holy war is a tenet of Islam, enshrined in the verses “Slay the idolaters wherever you find them” [sura 9.5] Shari’a law lacks the very notion of moral responsibility, as it conflicts with the Qur’anic doctrine of predestination of taqdir, which holds that Allah decides in advance which of us should be burned “through all eternity,” and which shall be seated “in the plenary enjoyment of an everlasting brothel between forty celestial concubines…because He wills it” [Palgrave]. Meanwhile, holy warriors are raised from the dead before the Last Day [suras 2.159 & 3.169] without enduring a sojourn in Hell.

For Petraeus, Clinton, or ballet-dancing Rahm Emmanuel to claim that the Pashtun kill Hazaras because of Israel, or that the Taliban would tolerate hip-hop if only Jews could ethnically cleanse themselves from the West Bank, is to ignore the Qur’anic worldview entirely. Yes, Muslims are upset that Israel finally overthrew the yoke of Arab occupation, which has been fought since 634, but the Muslims are also fuming about being kicked out of Andalusia and all challenges to ghazawat (the territorial expansion of Islamic domains), so what is the ADL’s crime in pointing out the non-sequitur between what happens in Israel and Afghanistan?

Mosques are places where the faithful recite such verses as “Slay the unbelievers wheresoever ye find them,” are told that secular authority must be toppled, and are taught that Jews and Christians must pay the jizya (poll tax) for their lives to be spared in the dar al-Sulh. If this were the agenda of the Italian mafia, we would call it a “protection racket;” if this were Timothy McVeigh’s agenda, we would decry a seditious attempt “at the violent overthrow of the US government.” Yet scrutiny of Islam’s goals has come to be denounced by tools like Joe Klein as “intolerance,” even when Islam’s interfaith “relations” are the definition of intolerance and subjugation. Cloaking hatred and conquest in a religion has clearly fooled Klein, for whom the sword on Saudi Arabia’s flag is nothing more than a decorative flourish. So Klein, lay off Mr. Foxman, and read the Qur’an, if you have the guts.

Let’s try to be clear. Christianity and Islam are religions practiced in many countries. They are not a political party in one country. If people insist on bringing up Germany under Hitler, that was a Christian country. The parallel would be to condemn Christian churches. Why should Muslim places of worship be viewed differently than Christian places of worship? Why should they be viewed as symbols of evil? The prayers are very similar and they are to the same God.

We can’t just pick up a text like the Koran, Jewish Bible or Christian Bible, pick out some passages we interpret as matching what we think, and then realistically believe we know all about the religions based on them. Each of these religions has different traditions of interpretation that do back to at least a millenium ago.

There should be a monument commemorating the deaths of the Japanese pilots killed in action at Pearl Harbor. SInce WW2, the Japanese and americans have proven to be true allies to each other . So, as a sign for the changed times, a center can be built adjacent to the monument. The monument should be a litmus test for the americans to prove that they are not racists ( yes, please ignore the deaths of 3000 citizens in the attacks and the innumerable hate speeches from the people responsible, the only thing that should concern you is the ‘xenophobic tendencies’ of americans) — if you are not for it, you are racist, no arguements there. Also, unlike the WTC mosque controversy, in this case there is no need to juggle between statements like ” this is a religious centre so that my religion guys can pray” and ” this is a centre open for all ( subtext-when we want)” , depending on the audience— the demand here is not for a religious centre at all. Also, please overlook the fact that the person who is asking for this memorial has been known for past incidents of anti-US statements/ siding with declared terrorist organizations/ denying existence of a UN member state on religious grounds. Well, you can always argue that should not a better symbol of tolerance would be to have this at a different place, if at all I want to have one, or whether or not it looks more like rubbing salt in the wound than healing, but then again you are just being racist.
[ I am not a Japanese nor do I represent the views of a single Japanese]

why are the newest posts relegated to the back?

Y’shar Koach to Abe Foxman and the ADL for having the strength and guts to take a ‘non-PC’ stance on this issue.

Too many people have been drinking the Kool Aid and just don’t understand what is going on.

For a reality check, watch this video: …http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w&playnext=1&videos=Q9NqG84dQTQ

It is so common for people to insist others don’t understand what is going on. Sometimes they do not. In other cases they actually understand the situation better than the people who insist they do not. Some people view Sarah Palin as a fountain of understanding. Some of us don’t. I prefer the mayor of NYC.

This dialogue has taken some pretty interesting turns, and as I have always experienced, demonstrates the intellect of so many people that I have met from New York City. It’s very insightful and tactical in it’s debate content. But, I have to ask this question with no offense intended; how have these two miniscule muslim realtors managed to come up with the money to buy this building? Did they simply create this frenzy to draw attention to concept in order to collect the funds to purchase the building and ultimately build their personal wealth? This debate seems to be missing something. It’s way too high browed.

Frankly, I think this is a demonstration of the overall objective of these businessmen, which was to create a fury. There is no way these guys could afford this structure without this drama and attention. this is really about personal gain and they should really find another place to put their community center.

First of all, humans that are ignorant of the fact that the human race is evolving need to understand that basic fact. Humans were not “created” ex nihilo. Yet, this is the nonsense we are programmed to believe by our churches and synagogues, who interpret scripture and holy writings with the primitive eyes and understanding of bigoted fundamentalism. With that said, Jews need to begin healing their wounds and stop playing the role of the perpetual victims of the human race. Jewish attitudes and actions are based on the wounds from the atrocities they have suffered. Yet to move forward, Jews will necessarily have to give up their stance as victims and as the “oppressed”, and give up their feelings of being perpetual victims and underdogs. The “conservative” chatter that is opposed to building the Islamic center are themselves very wounded and narcissistic individuals. Their wounds and fear and paranoia drive their ridiculous primitive attitudes towards minorities. This is the reason behind the republican attitudes of exclusivism, non inclusion, bigotry, and racism. When looked at closely it becomes apparent that “republicanism” and “conservatism” are nothing more than politicized narcissism manifesting at the collective level. Republicanism is a sickness and drives much of the war and misery in this world.

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

NewsBusters: Joe Klein Defames ADL Leader As Intolerant for Questioning Appropriateness of Mosque Near Ground Zero
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2010/08/02/times-joe-klein-lectures-anti-defamation-league-tolerance

What do you suppose would have been the reaction if the Japanese wanted to erect a monument or ‘cultural center’ at Pearl Harbor in 1950?

The ADL should turn its attention towards Southern CA, where an Oak Park synagogue that is seeking to expand over the objections of some neighbors, which was defaced with graffiti, according to authorities.

“Get out of Oak Park,” was scrawled across a front wall of Chabad of Oak Park just this week, stemming from community opposition to the Chabad’s request to change the terms of its conditional-use permit.

The revisions would double the maximum number of people allowed at synagogue at one time, from 70 to 145, and expand the times people would be allowed there.

While the Fire Dept. inspection has given its approval, the City Council and members of the community are against the move, circulating petitions against the permit, citing the increased traffic and parking-relatead issues.

Nevermind the fact that as devout Chabad worshippers, they do not drive on days of prayer, and are are restricted to walking to Schul!

Shame on Foxman for not recognizing the parallels then and now!

You mean the reaction by the same Americans that placed Japanese Americans in internment camps like Manzanar without any due-process whereupon they lost their property, livelihoods and freedoms?

Your analogy was misplaced, as Jingoism as practiced in the United States has proven far more insulting to we Americans who uphold the values of The Constitution than would-be patriots who would deny religious freedoms in the name of “America”. We do nothing to honour the memory of the thousands of Americans who have lost their lives on that horrorific day should we display such intolerance.

@mu dear hippies, word of advice – it’s never too late to grow up. I don’t care about the ADL but whoever supports a mosque on Ground Zero hasn’t the farthest of clues of what you are dealing with here.

Before I start breaking things down for you, lets get the basics right: secularism does not mean “equality of religions”. Secularism means the government will not favor one religion or religious practice over another. period.

RELIGIONS ARE NOT EQUAL. They never were. The Universal declaration of Human Rights, establishes the equality of men (and women) not their beliefs. You could believe in alien invasion and ghosts, that does not make my beliefs in evolution and infiniteness of universe “equal” to yours.

And before potheads scream KKK, let me disclaim I do not think much of either Christianity or Judaism, and that is not the point I am making.

The point is that Islam is hands down the most violent and institutionally bigoted religion in the world. Not just in scripture but in it’s popular practice and its history. Just look at the societies that have a significant Islamic population.

Again, this does not mean that all Muslims are haters. But a “whole lot” of them are, just like a whole lot of Germans were murdering Nazis and a whole lot of Russians were commies. Surprisingly, no one was making the argument of the vast majority of clueless Nazis or peaceful commies?!? Or were they…

Fact it, that it is all about ideology. Islam is much more of a political ideology than it is a “faith” as we understand it in the civilized world. Any honest mullah will tell you that without any reservation.

Meanwhile those who compare acts of jihadis with the “Christian terror” of Tim McVeigh are RETARDED. No offense meant to mentally handicapped people.

McVeigh, was also an ideologue. His ideology was “anti-government”, call it extreme right or whatever. He was not waving a bible and reciting verses which jihadists do (with their holy book).

There is so much wrong with Islam on so many levels, I can’t figure out where to begin.

But I urge you to think for yourselves and not act like liberal zombies like Joe Klein…

The difficulty here is not an ideological one.
The difficulty is not a moral one.
The difficulty is not centered around ideas of the best definition of equal liberty and justice for all.
The problem is not about the rights of someone to freely exercise their religion.
The real problem is invisible, it is who or what is worthy of worship.
Secularists will say nothing and no one.
However religion for most of us defines what is best and good and right. What we believe about our Creator we to some extent must believe about the world and all things in it, including ourselves.
To have no belief only removes you from the conversation about what is good. You no longer have a right to participate, for you don’t really believe that there is a good or best or right.
The rest of us can argue about what is good or best or right,
But the unbelievers must shut-up on this and all matters pertaining to what is good in God’s eyes, for you are participating in the discussion from a deceptive and false base. It is a premise founded on duplicity.
There are some writing here that want to raise acceptance and appeasement as some kind of lofty goal in themselves rather than a vehicle by which loftier goals come into being. It is a flawed belief based on an assumption of general good will. You must realize that the Islamic elements of society knew that 9/11 (or something like it) would come. They rolled out their media plan to mitigate the PR damage, and the simple souls bought into it immediately.
If it was a newly written play it might be called “Protocols of the Mullahs of Mecca.” A plan for the eventuality that some of the less patient adherents of our Islamic religion would break out against society.
America’s ideological greatness also gives rise to its greatest flaws. The blind spot created by the twin values of “Freedom of Religion” and “Separation of Church and State” is only a blind spot to those who believe that those values describe a state which actually exists versus a noble ideal. To those who espouse another ideal “Unification of Church and State” the ideal seems at best quaint or at worst heretical.
The problem is that the secularist cannot see it or fight it effectively, because his armies are always off the battle field. He wants to fight it as a discussion of noble ideals. But it is not such.
It is bloody and has been for a very long time. Even Christ Himself said “the Kingdom of God suffers violence, and the violent take it by force”.
Ironic then that many of the forefathers of American values, were fleeing from earthly religious rulers, and vowed to never allow such an edifice to be erected in this new land. They mistook the weapon for the wielder. As when the dog bites the stick that beats it, so too is the man who gives fight to the form of control versus the one who is controlling. We are in danger of doing the same thing here and now.
The only real effective way to fight fire is with fire, you really haven’t got enough water.
You see, if you really find someone or something worthy of worship, then you would have no problem yielding the government to him, whether you are Christian, Jew, or Muslim. If you are secularist all of this is extremely frightening and sounds like insanity.
The Muslim has a distinct advantage, in that they have a track record of taking over large areas with Sharia law and gaining financial and political control. It matters not that they administrate their government with all of the acumen of a hypocritical Pharisee, for they are not bound to grant justice to infidels. It is all for gain and control. The nobler ideals will seem like smoke in the wind when these things come to pass. The only real alternative is the majority of voters rising up and declaring the US a Christian country that is tolerant to all religions which do not seek the overthrow of America or Christianity.
Think about it for a minute. If in your mind (as a Muslim) religion and state are one, then the blessing you seek (which the infidels seem to be receiving) is only a step away. Control of the government through the presses of a free people is within your grasp. If you let it slip away and are discovered, you will certainly not get a second chance.
But honestly, ask yourself. Do you really want to replicate the life you left? Isn’t this Christian country with all of its naivety, much more pleasant than the one you left. Yes you might be able to personally enrich yourself during such a transition, but will you like what you create?
And you secularists, ask yourselves, “What will America be like in the hands of Islam?” What will they do with its armies and resources?
And you Christians ask yourselves “Can a government which seeks justice and freedom, truly be free devoid of religious thought and values?” When will you wake up and see your dream slipping away, and all of the sacrifices made by your forefathers doing down the drain? Was it for nothing?
And you Jews ask yourselves “Are Jews better off in countries ran by Christians or by Muslims?” Look at history, the good and the bad. When Germany left its Christian foundation and went toward the CULT of nazism with its preoccupation with psuedo mysticism and eastern spiritualism, it turned on the Jews and Christians that stood for the old ways. If America goes down the secular or Muslim path, who will stand by Israel’s side?
Who or what is really worthy to be worshipped?

Joe Klein didn’t allow the facts or the truth to prevent his rant which was clearly imbued by his personal feelings towards the ADL. And it didn’t stop most of you from jumping on the bandwagon without first checking what was actually said. What a wicked thing ignorance can be.

But let’s address the sanctimonious diatribe against those of us who vehemently oppose the Cordoba Mosque, (Ground Zero Mosque). You claim that it is intolerant and such opposition would never take place if a synagogue or a church was built instead of a mosque. American Jews would NEVER suggest that a synagogue be built on such sacred American ground. American Christians would NEVER suggest that a church be built on ground where 3,000 innocent lives were lost. Neither Jews nor Christians were responsible for the destructin of the world trade centers and the loss of 3,000 liives. Muslims were. The building of the Cordoba Mosque is not ironic or tolerant. It is clearly symbolic of what has taken place historically. First, in Jerusalem, upon the fragments of the destroyed Temple of the Jews, Muslims built their mosque. Then in Cordoba Spain, where all non-Muslims were killed, enslaved or forced to convert, Muslms built another grand mosque atop the wreckage of a church to show their conquest. It is therefore, no conincidnece that Muslims want to build a mosque, named “Cordoba” atop the wreckage of the West’s great symbols. It is also no surprise that Americans, so self-absorbed with their self-righteous belief in tolerance, don’t understand the historical significance of this act.

And, let’s talk about tolerance. For whose benefit are we being tolerant? There’s not one Islamic country that is tolerant. Are you, who claim we should show them how tolerant we are, so naive as to believe that somehow we are going to shape their cultures? More likely, as being done right now, they will undermine our own. And, why is it more important that Americans show tolerance for a culture that destroyed American symbols, murdered innocent lives and is responsible for more than 50,000 terrorist attacks in the past 30 years, not to mention the unrest in every country where Muslims are the majority or major minority, than it is for those American Muslims to show equal condemnation for those acts as well as show sensitivity to still grieving Americans who were impacted by 9/11? Why don’t we ask as much from American Muslims (if that’s not an oxymoron) as we do of American Jews, Christians, Mormans and every other religious group?

Of course, not all Muslims are responsible for the actions taken by the more devout Muslims. But all Muslims who support the erection of this mosque are responsible for insensitivity of the highest magnitude and for compliance in supporting a highly symbolic gesture to the world: rather than a FREEDOM TOWER, a symbol of tolerance, the world will see a mosque, a symbol of conquest. Americans might not get it, but I assure you, every Muslim in every Islamic country will get it.

Lastly, aside from the notion of insensitivy, have any one of you who claim to support the mosque have any knowledge of the Imam’s background, ideology and support? Do any of you know from where the funding is coming? The answers are disturbing. To stand on “tolerance” without facts, truth and context, is a Faustian deal we cannot allow.

They have not raised the funds. Jewish leaders from the JCC, JCRC, and AJC have testified in favor of the Imam and his wife.

The meaning of Cordoba to Jews should be vastly different from its meaning to Sarah Palin. I don’t recall anyone ever lamenting the loss of power by the Visigoths in Spain before. They were mostly Arian heretics. Is Palin fond of the doctrines of Arius?

“American Jews would NEVER suggest that a synagogue be built on such sacred American ground.”

There is a Christian ministry at Ground Zero. Who is opposing that? There are at least four churches which are as close to Ground Zero as Park Place is.

How much of America is sacred ground? Is all of that to be reserved for Christian churches? I think you would find many Jews don’t know our place as well as you think we do.

“Then in Cordoba Spain, where all non-Muslims were killed, enslaved or forced to convert, Muslms built another grand mosque atop the wreckage of a church to show their conquest.”

You are confusing two quite different Muslim dynasties. You are not talking about the dynasty which made Cordoba its capital and built the mosque. Before the Visigoths lost control of Spain, they insisted Jews convert to Christianity or leave Spain. Later the Catholics did the same thing.

So Islam and liberals in Manhattan are the Devil and Americans must not make a deal with them? Is that what all the fuss comes down to?

New York City Mayor Bloomberg is standing up for what’s right in The USA. Where is President Obama?
Mayor Bloomberg is getting billions of prayers tonight for his stand against religious bigotry. Mayor Bloomberg is one of most trusted men in America.
In an speech this afternoon, New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg defended the proposed mosque and community center two blocks away from Ground Zero. A city panel Tuesday cleared the way for the construction near ground zero of a mosque that has caused a political uproar over religious freedom.
The Landmarks Preservation Commission voted unanimously to deny landmark status to a building two blocks from the World Trade Center site that developers want to tear down and convert into an Islamic community center and mosque. The panel said the 152-year-old lower Manhattan building isn’t distinctive enough to be considered a landmark.

The decision drew praise from Mayor Michael Bloomberg. Several prominent national Republicans, including Sarah Palin and former Speaker Newt Gingrich, oppose because they say it’s too close to the site of the September 11 attacks.
Mayor Bloomberg said “Whatever you may think of the proposed mosque and community center lost in the heat of the debate has been a basic question: Should government attempt to deny private citizens the right to build a house of worship on private property based on their particular religion? That may happen in other countries, but we should never allow it to happen here,”

I have known Mayor Bloomberg for many years. I have closely followed him in his business achievements and what he has done as Mayor in New York City.
Mayor Bloomberg is one of the most successful businessmen in the world. He is a source of inspiration for hard-working entrepreneurs.
He is loved by Republicans and Democrats. His achievements in the private sector speak for themselves.
But what he accomplished in New York after it was hit with the biggest terrorist attack in U.S. history is astonishing.
He has done an amazing job rebuilding New York’s infrastructure, supporting education and fighting crime. New York is the safest big city in the world.
Today again Mayor Bloomberg have defended religion freedom in America.

Thousands of innocent people killed this year from religious bigotry and radicals. Religious bigotry is the world’s greatest danger.
The problem in U.S, Europe, India, Iraq, Pakistan, Israel and Afghanistan is that some people have violated the rights of God to people. They have tortured and killed men of God and violated human rights by raising the sword and calling it Jihad. The corruption is rife and man has become a beast.

The practice of attacking the people in The US, Israel, India,iran, UK, Pakistan, Iraq and Afghanistan which they name as Jihad, is not the lawful jihad rather it contradicts the word of God and Prophet, and is utter sin. But as some Islamic nations have of old swept into this habit, therefore, it is not easy for them to abandon this habit. Rather, it is quite possible that they become mortal enemy of the person who gives Peace advice, and may even want to finish him off under the heroic passions.
Islam religion leaders in the world should gather scholars and bring the matter of Jihad into discussion, and then, through the scholars, make the public aware of their misconceptions, and have them widely published.

Then, for sure, such action will have deep effect on public, and the emotions stirred by the ignorant mulla [religious clergy] spread among the public will subside eventually. And certainly, it will be unfortunate for of the public if the ruler does not pay attention to this necessary correction. And, the final result is the trouble for that government which sits quiet on such edicts from the mullas.
Now India, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan is a combustible combination. Unless we are able to change the heart and minds of the people this mayhem will continue to total destruction
Intolerance and bigotry and dogmatism are the bitterest enemies of religion upon earth. They make religion a tyrant and a persecutor. All religions come from one and the only God. All religions make man equally good upon earth . All open their hearts to the same God .
Man has no right to demand that his neighbors shall address God after his pattern and shall pray in his own way and worship according to his liking and sacrifice unto God in the manner he does. It is for God to decide who amongst us is best in His sight.
By Sahit Muja
President & CEO
Albanian Minerals
New York

Dirks, when you remove your veil of ignorance by reading extensively the writings of “moderate” muslims, the commentary written by devout muslims and the analsyses of the Koran, suras, sunnas, and hadiths you will quickly realize that not all religions are what they appear. You will quickly, I hope, realize that Islam, as practiced and preached by a significant portion of the 1.5b Muslim population, is a totalitarian, authoritarian, fascist political ideology cloaked in religion. the values of Islam are absolutely and clearly antithetical to western values. Don’t take my word; go read! Educate yourself. You may find comfort believing that you are well educated and tolerant, but wallowing in such comfort would have taken you to the gas chambers by the Nazis. One way tolerance is the first step in submission, and remember, Islam means “submission.”

My response to Dirks is even more appropriate to nibblybits. You clearly didn’t read Foxman’s comment. If you are so willing to ignore the bright red flags waving in front to the Imam’s writings and preachings, if you are so willing to ignore the funding source from which tthis Imam will receive funds to build this mosque and if you are so ignorant about the historical symbolism of the name “cordoba”, which references a grand mosque built atop the wreckage of a church destroyed by invading Muslims in a town where all inhabitants were killed, enslaved or forced to convert (and by the way the did the same in Jerusalem, in Al Andalusa (spelling) and everywhere else they conquered; then shame on your for selling out this country. Simply go research what’s happening in England, where Mohammed is now the #1 name at birth. Go research France, where there are no-go zones for non-Muslims. Witness the intolerance by Muslims all over the world for western thought, ideas and values. Shame on you for being so ignorant. Not all Muslims feel this way, but it neither were all Germans Nazis. Yet looked what happend when that minority took over.

While I’m somewhat tired of trying to fight/argue with my brother liberals on the other side (Shout out to 53), I will say that the Mayor is on Shaky Ground. New Yorkers will not forgive his stance.

When the Saudi’s allow a Synagogue in Mecca we can talk about a Ground Zero Mosque. Until then the Mayor and Joe can go play with themselves…

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