No Newt

Newt Gingrich is clearly selling his new book. How do I know? He gets dumb and angry (and flirts with running for President) when he has a book out.

Stuff like this drives me nuts. The Conservative leading lights take stands like this and refuse to differentiate between average Muslims and radical Muslims that perpetrate acts of terrorism like 9/11. Painting in broad strokes like that fosters hate and fear and directs it at the wrong people. When Palin does it, I just chalk it up to the sort of intellectual rigor that I have come to expect from her but Newt is smarter than that. You don’t have to agree with Newt to know that. I fear that it’s going to take a serious, deadly incident to make people wake up to the fact that speaking in these sorts of generalities isn’t just ugly and racist but dangerous as well.

Well said, Joe Klein.

There are no Republicans with courage left. No one with well-thought-out opinions on the size and scope of government, the need for balanced budgets, or an interest in humble and intelligent use of the military survived the Bush years. If you’re a Republican today, it’s 100% tribalism. (Or, to be fair, inertia).
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Of course Republicans are going to bash the construction of a mosque. It’s something for Muslims, and Muslims are the Enemy, along with blacks and liberals.

Mor on Newt and national security from Steve Benen.

I’m not from New York and don’t know anyone who died in the WTC bombings, so maybe I see things differently. I did visit the WTC the summer before the bombings, however, so I can say that I’ve been there. To me the building of this mosque seems like a good opportunity to emphasize the difference between “good Islam” and “bad Islam”. From a national security stand point, that seems like the smart thing to do. Demonstrate for the Islamic world that America has nothing against “good Islam”, and that our country’s religious freedom ethos extends equally to Islam as it does to every other peaceful religion. Unfortunately this current debate has nothing to do with national interest and everything to do with the self interests of a few morally bankrupt individuals.

“On January 21, 1997, the House voted 395 to 28 to reprimand Gingrich for ethics violations dating back to September 1994. The House ordered Gingrich to pay a $300,000 penalty, the first time in the House’s 208-year history it had disciplined a Speaker for ethical wrongdoing”
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That’s some prime Presidential material you got there, GOP.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newt_Gingrich

But you have to remember: it’s only wrong when democrats and liberals do it. Conservatives are patriotic, so it’s ok when they lie, cheat, steal, abuse power, or otherwise act like liberal politicians,

How long until we see the headline” “No newts is good newts.”? Just sayin’

She turned me into a Newt!
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A Newt?
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…I got better.
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Also, there’s no ‘Mosque’ per se on the Columbia campus, but there is a building designated for Muslim students, and a space set aside for praying.

Newt Gingrich to me is the face of Republican tribalism.

He got into a p ing contest with Clinton and ended up shutting down everything but the most essential functions of government when he was speaker.

The fact that he was having an affair while condemning Clinton for his affair reminds me that he not only believes in American exceptionalism, but Republican exceptionalism.

In a strange way, I prefer he be the front runner from the Republic party because he doesn’t have even the pretense of ignorance that Palin has. He seems to wear on it on his sleeve that he loves the letter R above all and hates the letter D regardless of the consequences.

His statements about a Mosque not within sight nor en route to Ground Zero just reminds the world how anti-American this man and the wing of his party he represents really are.

I give him some points for not even pretending to be a good person or to love America. It’s a bizarre kind of integrity that he knows what America is all about but does the exact opposite while standing in front of American flags.

I hope he runs in 2012.

Obviously, I hope he gets crushed in 75% to 25% landslide, but, I hope he runs. He is what today’s right wing of the Republican party are all about: naked tribalism.

http://islam.about.com/blvictims.htm
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Partial list of muslim heroes and victims on 9/11.
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I wish people would stop saying Gingrich is smart. Because many on the right find it difficult or refuse to use more than 2 syllable words, it does not follow because Gingrich makes an attempt to sound academic that he is smart. His ramblings are as incoherent as Palins. He just uses larger words. Remember his opinion that women shouldn’t be in combat because they had menstral periods and stuff and men were genetically use to hunting giraffes. This is intelligent?
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Besides, anyone that is as hateful and insincere as Gingrich does not deserve any accolades.

It is amazing the right defines freedom and liberty based on their narrow outlook. How is there a respect for freedom and liberty if it has to conform to one set of beliefs?

I would be more impressed with Newt (and you, too, Joe) if the time and space wasted on the NYC mosque controversy were directed toward criticism of governments like Saudi Arabia that will not allow any symbol of Judaism or Christianity into its borders.
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The United States should not support any nation that refuses to offer freedom of religion to its own citizens and its foreign guests and which features state-supported religious intolerance in any way, and that includes Israel which has a poor record with respect to religious tolerance (try walking through Mea Sharim with a crucufix or getting married by a Reform rabbi in Jerusalem).
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In the broader sense, we should all try to live by the high principles espoused clearly decades ago by the Roosevelts. Franklin advocated his Four Freedoms (of speech and expression, of religion, from want, and from fear) and after his death Eleanor pushed through the UN’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the highest expression of international thought yet produced by Mankind.
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Somehow, America has been in decline ever since the moral high point we reached during and just after WWII. We lost the light of our vision and now we seem to be forever stumbling around aimlessly in the darkness we have created.

“Remember his opinion that women shouldn’t be in combat because they had menstral periods…”
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You would think that, if anything, the fact that women menstruate is a reason why are fierce enough for combat.
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(Sorry, I had to say that and BTW: I do believe women should be allowed in combat, Israel and a few other countries have allowed it for decades now.)

No Newt would be good Newt.

OT- but I don’t really give a (blank) about Newt-
I just read this quote from Dodd about Warren
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“She’s qualified, no question about that. The question is whether she’s confirmable,” Dodd added. “The issue is [if] you can’t confirm somebody, if you go six or seven months without someone in that job, you’ve got a problem.”
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That sounds very much like “We want a single payer or at the very least a public option but the votes just aren’t there”
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Democrats giving up (or perhaps showing what they really want) before the fight is joined.
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Bah.

I truly feel sorry for the Republican party if someone as accomplished as Newt Gingrich has to resort to hate mongering to appeal to their voters.

Tactics like these are a sign of equivalency of hate mongering philosophy prescribed by those who want to kill innocent civilians for their own personal satisfaction as a showcase of their hatred.

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———————-Religion is Organized Crime!
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——————-Mind control de-brains the masses

TOLERANCE PERPETUATES THE INSANITY OF RELIGION!
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—————Are ALL New Yorkers ILLITERATE?
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————-Don’t ANY of them READ Newspapers?
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—————No more Islamic “MOSQUES in New York!
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Muslim parents tie EXPLOSIVES to their children and force them to KILL themselves while KILLING “Infidels”!
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Here are a few more reasons for denying
ANOTHER Muslim “Mosque” in New York City:
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Read: The “First” of “The Five Pillars of Islam”!
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The “Koran” ORDERS “MUSLIMS” TO: “KILL ALL “INFIDELS”!
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———’MUSLIM” be-headings of civilians!
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——-Attacks on INFIDEL’s public buildings!
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–Suicide slaughters!——-Murders of INFIDELS
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Burnings of INFIDELS —–Persecution of INFIDELS in Egypt,
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Imposition of Sharia law!
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—–RAPES of Scandinavian young women
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MURDER of film directors in Holland,
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——RIOTING and looting in Paris France.
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-MUSLIMS AIM TO DOMINATE THE ENTIRE WORLD!
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Muslim men have MULTIPLE WIVES ALL PRODUCING CHILDREN!
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Soon “MUSLIMS” will out-number every other Religious-Ethnic Group on Earth!
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MUSLIMS HAVE INFILTRATED HIGH LEVELS OF U S GOVERNMENT!
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———BEWARE THE “MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD”!
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Have you tried loosening the tinfoil hat?

The race baiting left as represented by Joe Klein have all kinds of audacity.
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Let me make it real simple for the simpletons on the left.
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Americans DIED, they died on 9/11 because Muslim extremists ditched not one, but TWO planes into the World Trade Towers.
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Forgive those of us who still hold American patriotism in our hearts as we ask that a mosque, which does not need to be built on or near ground zero out of respect for those who perished in one of the worst examples of religious persecution of any religion in modern history.
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I know our muslim President would do the ribbon cutting at the ceremony to open up the new mosque, but when it is opened, perhaps you can also ask all the Wiccans to also show up to do a solstice dance, naked, in a show of solidarity with the Muslims in attendance. Liberals can then proclaim another victory in the total destruction of the United States of America.

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—————-RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IS:
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Freedom to tie EXPLOSIVES to your children and force them to KILL themselves while MURDERING “Infidels”!
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————————————Yet:
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Newt Gingrich says: “You know, there are over a hundred mosques in New York City”.(?)
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——————————–And,
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Newt Gingrich says: “I favor “religious freedom”(?)
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——-Is Newt Gingrich a BLOODY SADISTIC?
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——–Why does Newt Gingrich “FAVOR”:
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———–Child “SUICIDE BOMBERS”?
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That are KILLED by their “religious freedom” Muslim (LOVING?) parents for
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“The Love of Allah”! (Their idea of “God”!)
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Someone, Please “Wake up Gingrich”!
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—————-RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IS:
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———-”Freedom” to CORRUPT HUMANITY!
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Here’s a video with the Associated Press report on Newt Gringrich’s potential presidential run:

http://www.newslook.com/videos/228820-gingrich-considering-presidential-run

One of the dead, Brendan McCabe, was one of my relatives and I say let them build a Mosque where they planned it a three minute walk not en route via public transit and not within sight of Ground Zero as proposed.
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I live in New York and do not make zoning laws for your town, so, don’t make zoning laws for mine and don’t tell me how I should show respect for the dead.
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The dead were people who worked and/or lived in New York City and were more than comfortable with the diversity which makes America great and included among the dead Muslims.
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Episcopalian Trinity Church is far, far closer than the proposed Mosque and, even though the largest religion is Catholic, not Episcopalian, nobody is asking anybody to move churches around.
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I’ll let you decide New York City’s zoning laws on one condition: you let me decide that the new sewage treatment plant in your area gets placed right next door to your house and a strip club open to 4:00 AM gets put in across the street from you.
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Deal?
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No?
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Then butt out, Rusty.

Anoracle,
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Are you a friend of Rusty’s?

[7.1] Ohiolibb, its ok when blah blah…

No, actually it isn’t. Actually, its as equally annoying as you pretending two wrongs make a right or remove your capability to make an actual argument because you tangentially agree with a line of policies.

Own your movement and start taking responsibility for the actions of your leaders. I absolutely hate when libertarians or republicans make this argument when a conservative voice who has done wrong in the past is called out on it.

“Mr Gingrich visited (the CIA) three times before the war, and according to accounts, the political veteran sought to browbeat analysts into toughening up their assessments of Saddam’s menace.
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Mr Gingrich gained access to the CIA headquarters and was listened to because he was seen as a personal emissary of the Pentagon and, in particular, of the OSP (Office of Special Plans).
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The OSP had access to a huge amount of raw intelligence. It came in part from “report officers” in the CIA’s directorate of operations whose job is to sift through reports from agents around the world, filtering out the unsubstantiated and the incredible. Under pressure from the hawks such as Mr Cheney and Mr Gingrich, those officers became reluctant to discard anything, no matter how far-fetched. The OSP also sucked in countless tips from (Ahmad Chalabi’s) Iraqi National Congress and other opposition groups, which were viewed with far more scepticism by the CIA and the state department.
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“They surveyed data and picked out what they liked,” said Gregory Thielmann, a senior official in the state department’s intelligence bureau until his retirement in September. “The whole thing was bizarre. The secretary of defence had this huge defence intelligence agency, and he went around it.” ”
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The Spies Who Pushed for War
- http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jul/17/iraq.usa

Newt managed to contradict his stated principles, in the same paragraph that he was stating his principles. He goes on to draw a hasty inductive generalization, about one billion plus people, from a population of about 250 specimens. It’s like he is in training to compete with Palin, focusing exclusively on torturing logic.

Religious freedom is not only responsible for the right to worship in peace, it also protects us from state sponsored, tax collecting faiths, even if we are not a believer, it also protects us from petty dictators, whose power is said to exist by divine right. In other words religious freedom is part of the very fabric of democracy itself. Newt is not only heading down an anti-American road, he shows himself to have contempt for democracy in general.

Good post.

http://islam.about.com/blvictims.htm
I will post this again.
Please read about medical student, 23, Salman Hamdani, Mohammad chowdhurd, left pregnant wife, Rahma Salie, passenger 7 months pregnant.
Then look carefully at the list of other Muslims who died because of the events of 9/11.
Open your minds and hearts.

Muslim extremists

It is interesting that you understand enough to claim extremists crashed the plain into the building, yet you don’t understand that a majority of Muslims are not extremists, that this building is not being built by extremists, nor does it do anything to further extremists’ causes.

What is more astonishing is that you seem to feel that this country is somehow a Christian Country, when it is not. There is no official religion of the USA, and there is freedom for anyone to practice what they wish, including Islam, wherever they wish, including ground zero.

I don’t think the issue of building a mosque at or near ground zero is that of religious freedom, acceptance or tolerance of moderate muslims. There is a reason that they are insisting on building in this location in particular, and it is not obvious from their efforts so far that they want it to serve as a beacon of peace. I’m not judging their motive, just saying that a “we are not all crazy” motto is not what the proponents of building the mosque have be highlighting.
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To state that there is no basis for a negative reaction (whether based on rational thought or emotion) to the building of a mosque in the vicinity of ground zero is silly. The vast majority of Americans, whether rightly or wrongly believe that they were attacked by muslims on 9-11. That these are extremists is a nuanced detail that does not necessarily come to play here. 9-11 is still an open wound, and to build a place of worship to the perceived perpetrators is just rubbing salt into injury. I am sure that there are other ways that the moderate muslim community can help educate Americans on what the religion is really about and help heal the wound over time. A guy is attacked by his neighbors dog and savagely injured. You explain that not all dogs are vicious, and most dogs actually do good with humans, and that bad dogs are usually the result of bad owners. All true, and the guy will probably understand over time, but don’t tell him that he has to live next to a dog breeder immediately he is released from medical care just to show that he now accepts that dogs can be great. His aversion to dogs, whether real, or imagined can not be discounted. (I hope it is clear that I am not saying muslims are dogs or like dogs. I know that in spite of this clearly not being stated or implied, someone may still accuse me of doing so.)
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Most religions have fringe elements that resort to violence. The only difference with Islam is that violence is main stream or very close to it. This cuts across all islamic nations, from Indonesia to Saudi Arabia. Islam in its current evolution is quite violent. I say this from first hand experience since I come from a country where the population is about 50% muslim. I have muslims in my extended family. There are regular religiously motivated violent incidents in my country, and it is almost always at the instance of muslims. All you rooting for islam, be careful for what you wish for, take a look at France and the Netherlands and learn. Holland is a lot more liberal on these issues and a lot more accepting of islam. They have been swallowing the bitter pill of being over run by backward and violent islamic traditions. They now have second thoughts. The problem with situations like Holland is you now have extremists on the far right trying to banish all muslims, this is also wrong. We should learn from places like these in Europe and make it clear to muslims that the freedom of religion that they enjoy must be enjoyed by all. This will be very difficult in practice since Islam by nature does not live and let live.
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So I agree with rusty, building a mosque in the vicinity of ground zero so soon after 9-11 is a dumb idea. However rusty, I think your asinine statement about a “muslim” president distracts from an otherwise valid point.

do you really not see the irony in your post? you say this controversy is a waste, and then go on to say we should adopt a no compromise position on religious freedom with nations we support in any way. If we are going to go preaching that to the world, how much more important is it to make sure we are free of religious discrimination here? If its a national political goal for many here to block the construction of a muslim community center, its clear we have our own problems.

WalkingFunny, its been almost 10 years. Its time to grow a pair and man up. I’m sorry if its difficult for you and you need to resort to cliches like “rubbing salt in wounds” to express your Islamaphobia. Unfortunately, America wasn’t attacked by a dog, and Americans have to understand the truth regardless of whether they want to. And part of healing that wound is exposure. So deal with it.

I remember how I picked up one of his books at the library since I had always heard how he was one of the more academic conservatives. I read the first 4 pages and wrote it off as propaganda. wrote a nasty note in the front and put it back on the shelf. then i got “Comeback” by Frum instead.

No, I don’t see any irony, since my post does not advocate blocking the mosque in NYC. It does point out the more serious problems in other nations that condone religious bigotry as a state policy, such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Israel, and so on, and advocates that we not support such regimes unless they make it legal for people of any faith to have freedom of religious expression within their borders.

On August 20, in the Year of Our Lord 1191, Richard the Lion Heart and his Christian soldiers dragged 2,700 Muslim prisoners captured from the siege of Acre and beheaded them (out of pique with Saladin as negotiations were breaking down). They were but a small fraction of the tens of thousands slaughtered by Christians during the Crusades. And Christians were just getting started. From the suppression of the Albigensian sect in the 1200s (in which the Pope essentailly said “Kill them all and let God sort them out”) to the Spanish Inquisition to the Thirty Years War to the English Civil War, Christian fanaticism of one sort or another led to the deaths of tens of millions of people. And that was before the largely Christian led genocides of the Indians in the Western Hemisphere and Jews in the Eastern. Compared to the crimes of Christianity, the Islamic fanatics are a bunch of pikers.

Ah, but the “Newtists” will say, that was then, this is now, we Christians are different these days. And perhaps we are (although is there any question that if you transported Newt into the Crusader Army he would be leading the soldiers in theiir slaughter?). But so are the great majority of Muslims in this country, no more related to the fanatics who flew into the World Trade Center than our Christians are related to the Orthodox Christain Serbs who slaughtered Bosnian Mulsims not 16 years ago. Every religion (particularlry Abrahamic religions) goes through a process in which it tries to overcome its racialist and violent tendencies. We happen to live in a rare time in which the most violent religion in the world is not ourselves but rather our Muslim brethren. It makes sense, then, to encourage the more moderate faction of the Islamic religion as they struggle to win out over their bitter, nihilistic fundamentalist foes, just our Founding Fathers created a land that explicitly rejected the violent tendencies of their Christian brethren.

This being history, however, I am betting Newt and his fellow travelers on the Right would never understand.

My favorite part of this whole episode is that a serial adulterer like Newt is saying we need to copy Saudi Arabia when it comes to intolerance.
His head would be one of the first on the chopping block.

Just curious… are there no Catholic churches by the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City? I mean McVeigh was a Catholic (self described), so if some evil muslims ruin it for all muslims then, an evil catholic should do the same.

gum: would it also have been o.k. at 5, 8yrs?, or is a minimum of 10 yrs the threshold?
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you tell me to grow a pair and man up. You have no idea of what a man is, if you went through a fraction of what the average child has to go through where I come from, you would either be dead, or a complete psychological wreck perpetually propped up by medication. you think talking tough behind a computer and acting all punk like is what it means to have a pair? enjoy your cushioned american life, I do not begrudge you for it, but very little around here will toughen you up enough to endure the real life life in other places. that pair you think u have, is all limp. I guarantee that you’ll pee all over yourself if you encounter some of what people go through daily. So, please enough with the silly tough talk.
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Islamophobia? no I’m not. My only problem is with the religion which in its current evolution finds it difficult to live and let others live. Yours is an academic evaluation of islam based on Ahmed, your friendly neighborhood butcher, mine is a first hand experience of living with a lot of muslims. There are states in my country that practice the islamic legal system called sharia. Under sharia, your right hand is amputated if convicted of theft. I am not talking theory, this goes on regularly, you see people daily on the streets with amputated hands because they were caught stealing. Now, how about that?, still got that pair?

kcory: you miss the point that this is not some fringe minority of the islamic faith. Acts like 9-11 are either ignored, accepted, applauded or fully supported by an uncomfortable percentage of the muslim world. I’m sure you can not say the same thing of the Catholics and the acts of Timothy McVeigh

“The only difference with Islam is that violence is main stream or very close to it…”
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What you may not be aware of it that nearly all of the Muslim countries are Less Developed/ third world Countries and nearly all now or recently had been dominated by the United States.
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During the Cold War, these puppet governments of the US were often very brutal and were very vigilant against the rise of communism. However, they allowed religious groups to operate without significant government intervention.
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So, instead of having leftist revolutionaries, they found out, often far too late, that they had right wing religious rebels and terrorists instead.
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Instead of being able to handle their grievances through a free and fair election (see Iran, where Eisenhower overthrew a democratically elected government for the oil company BP, replacing him with the Shah) or though communism, they made use of the Mosques as meeting places for revolutionaries.
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I am sure that most Fox conservatives would love to call both Nazis and Fundamentalist Muslims Liberals, but, they aren’t.
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I am not saying by any means that violent revolution or terrorism is by any stretch of the imagination the right answer, but, those forces of revolution had no easy avenue besides the Mosques and made radical Islam.
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Even with that, there are one billion Muslims. They are equal in population to the Roman Catholic Church. If one billion people wanted to murder 300 million Americans, we would be dead.
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If one hundred million Muslims were willing to die to kill all Americans, we would be dead.
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Radical Islam is not even one percent in terms of those who are willing to murder us. It is closer to 1% of 1%.
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Keep in mind that ICE does check for names similar to those of terrorists and that the opportunities here are infinitely better than most of the Islamic world, we can safely say that less than 1% of 1% of Muslims are willing to harm Americans.
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Where I live right now, there are about 20 to 25 Pakistani (Muslim) Families – about 100 people – living across the street from me. They are pleasant and quiet neighbors who want the same American dream that the Irish, the German, the Polish, the Italians, the Greeks – everybody – wants from America.
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Your real-life Muslim is nothing to be afraid of.
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Actually, they don’t drink, they don’t gamble, they’re women don’t sleep around… they’re a little on the boring side, actually.

“I’m sure you can not say the same thing of the Catholics and the acts of Timothy McVeigh.”
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But how about Norther Irish Catholics of the IRA during the IRA’s heyday twenty years ago?
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It depends upon who you ask about that if they believed that most Catholics backed the IRA or not.

“His head would be one of the first on the chopping block.”
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I saw a viral video in 2001 a few weeks before 9/11.
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It’s your hand if you steal – since you misused your hand.
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If you sleep with another woman, what part do you think they cut off…..
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OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!
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That’s what the video showed.

Oh come on, you’re smarter than that. They’re not trying to open a terrorist training camp.
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No one protests Christian churches near the site of the Oklahoma City bombings. No one protests churches built near bombed abortion clinics either.
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And nor should they. Rational people understand that criminals of any religion do not represent the whole of that religion and to persecute those people just because they belong to the same blanket religion as those who committed a heinous crime is absurd.
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Pretty sure no one whines about British and Canadian embassies in Washington DC. Tell that to the people killed in The War of 1812!

What would be truly be a demonstration of American freedom and tolerance would be for the Islamic community to build a Christian AND Jewish community center on or nearby Ground Zero.

my point exactly, it was the war of 1812, decades and decades given to heal …. this was just 10 yrs ago, and the ongoing wars make it feel like it is right now.
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I played along with the McVeigh parallel in the hope that the absurdity would be apparent. The hijackers on 9-11 did it in the name of Islam, McVeigh did not do it in the name of Catholicism. To draw your logic to its absurd extreme, no white male should be allowed in the vicinity of the Oklahoma bomb site. Silly right, because he did not do it fighting for the cause of all whilte men.
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yes, criminals of any religion do not represent all adherents to the religion, but the percentage in the Islamic religion is alarmingly high. Any group or society with such a high percentage of “criminals” among them will be ungovernable. In too many cases, these activities are not just tolerated, but

If there are so many Mosques in NYC, why does one have to be built so close to where members of the people who worship at these sites murdered so many innocent people?

This is nothing more than a flagrant display of the ultimate goal spelled out in the Quran — supremacy over all other religions.

You people wearing the rose-tinted sunglasses, drinking Kool-Aid, and smoking something funny absolutely amaze me with your naiveity.All you have to do is look at what’s happening in Europe and you will see what the religion of Islam is all about.

Interesting that you should take a swipe at others’ knowledge of history when your version of events is wildly off the mark. According to you, it was first Christianity that was born out of violence, and now it is simply the anomalous era of Islamic violence. Not quite.
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First, Christianity from the beginning was exceptionally peaceful. Despite extraordinarily violent times, Christ consistently preached love, forgiveness, and charity. His followers, though tortured, ostracized, executed, and martyred, held consistent to his principles. Centuries later, Christian nations went to war, as all nations have and continue to do, not as a reflection of their Christian-based fervor, but more often than not out of nationalistic pride, egomaniacal imperial greed, and lust for power and riches. In other words, par for the course, par for the times. This is not to say that there were not violent Christians, but to set them apart from the world of violence they lived in is a gross manipulation of the truth. Christianity incrementally mellowed over the centuries.
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On the other hand, Islam was, in fact, a violent religion from the beginning. How did the faith spread? By the sword, beginning with the conquest of Mecca and Medina by Muhammed. Here’s a rather glaring point, actually. The Christian prophet: Christ, a simple man who preached only virtue and peace. The Islamic prophet: Muhammed, a warrior who imposed his religious philosophy through violent conquest. This simple point is evidence enough that Islam is not, just now, evolving through its violent stage.
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Christianity has bore witness to many cycles of violence and war, some unrelated, some carried out in the name of Christ. However, Christianity also has anachronistic tendencies. As much as I am fascinated by Islam, and am very fond of the culture, it is static. It is just as violent today as it was in the 700s.

Joe Klein, I’m pretty sure he’s Jewish, strikes me as being of the same sort that either either refused to believe what Hitler was doing in Germany, or worse, abetted the actions. When is he going to begin supporting this nation, rather than making a dime by disseminating tripe such as this.

In reading this article I suspect Joe would come up with some excuse for the radical Islamists that flew the planes into the Towers or Pentagon: they were misguided; we brought it upon ourselves; their mothers spanked them when they were kids.

Get real Joe!

yes, criminals of any religion do not represent all adherents to the religion, but the percentage in the Islamic religion is alarmingly high

Might you have something to back up this assertion other than your opinion?

“you miss the point that this is not some fringe minority of the islamic faith. Acts like 9-11 are either ignored, accepted, applauded or fully supported by an uncomfortable percentage of the muslim world.”

I don’t think I have. I think the point here is deciding which religion is ok to have “fringe minorities” or even majorities that think the acts of some stand for all.

National Organization for Marriage is a Christian group that thinks lynching people who are different is acceptable. Don’t see anybody b*tching about building a Christian Church on or around the Gay Pride Festival route in any city or the County Clerk office where marriage licences are not issued. Unless of course you are a Christian who disagrees with them.

This is nothing more than a flagrant display of the ultimate goal spelled out in the Quran — supremacy over all other religions.

And your commentary is nothing more than an expression of your intolerance and ignorance.
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How is it that the actions of those that perpetrated 9/11 can color some 1+ billion people?
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BTW, do you live in NYC? If not, feel free to STFU as it is a local decision that has nothing to do with you.

“How did the faith spread? By the sword, beginning with the conquest of Mecca and Medina by Muhammed. Here’s a rather glaring point, actually. The Christian prophet: Christ, a simple man who preached only virtue and peace. The Islamic prophet: Muhammed, a warrior who imposed his religious philosophy through violent conquest. This simple point is evidence enough that Islam is not, just now, evolving through its violent stage.”
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I have to disagree to some extent.
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When Muslims conquered a country they gave all of the people an option: convert to Islam or pay an additional tax to pay more for military expenses since only Muslims could defend a Muslim country.
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What is not remembered is that during the crusades, among other times, Eastern Christians such as the Coptic Christians as well as Jews fought on the Muslim side since they were permitted to exist and maintain their faith under Muslim rule and for Coptic Christians and, sometimes, Orthodox Christians, they, personally, hated being invaded.
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When Al Andalus, the Muslim Kingdom holding at various times a vast majority of Iberian Peninsula was conquered 1492 (and taken piece by piece for centuries) Muslims and Jews were given the option to convert, be deported to Morocco or face execution.
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http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/a/al/al_andalus.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Al-Mansur_Ibn_Abi_Aamir&usg=__rbYDG2rGSjyo0xMF_6A0iIG62Fo=&h=497&w=670&sz=10&hl=en&start=0&tbnid=rMqvzW61T2gj2M:&tbnh=144&tbnw=192&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAl%2BAndalus%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3Dh5E%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1440%26bih%3D749%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=135&vpy=83&dur=6561&hovh=193&hovw=261&tx=134&ty=121&ei=PG5PTNWiO4H68AbmrdilAg&page=1&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0
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DNA studies have shown that today’s modern Spaniard has almost one third combined Morrish and Jewish ancestry.
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The Spanish Inquisition was focused on Conversos, that is, the people descended from Moors and Jews some of whom, in addition to attending church, had Jewish or Muslim ceremonies in their homes. This included aids to the royalty and even Bishops.
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Now, before you think I am going to stand by the theory that the Muslims were 100% the good guys, there were a few catches to living in a Muslim country.
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First, if either perpetrator or victim in a criminal case or plaintiff or defendant in a civil case were Muslim, the case would be handled in a Muslim court.
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Second, and far worse, even though Christians and Jews were welcomed with open arms to convert to Islam, converting a Muslim to Christianity or Judaism was punishable by death.
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In an extraordinarily violent, unjust and intolerant times, the Muslims were less unjust, less violent and less violent.
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Don’t forget that Greece and Armenia are Orthodox Christian and were under Ottoman rule for centuries.
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No, that is not to say that Christians always or often converted by the sword nor that the social and economic advantages to conversion weren’t, at times even mightier than the sword, but, reality is very complicated.

BTW: I am terrible about citing sources and will find some if you wish me to, but, also, most of the horrible and draconian punishments of the Islamic world predate Islam by centuries. If from no other source, the modern Islamic punishment for an adulteress being stoned to death most people know exists in the bible predating Christianity as a Middle Eastern punishment.
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The Middle East has always been, as far as I can tell, a harsh and brutal place filled with draconian punishments.

Asking Muslims to apologize for Al Qada is similar to asking Newt Gingrich to apologize for Timothy McVeigh.
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Gingrich does not recognize McVeigh’s actions as violence inspired by conservatism and the overwhelming majority of Muslims do not consider Al Qada to be anything other than a band of lunatics who steal the Koran and Islam as an excuse to be homicidal lunatics.
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So, tolerant Muslims living in the US, often born here including many converts do not see 9/11 as their debt more than the RNC feels compelled to pay for the damages done in Oklahoma, The 1996 Olympic Park bombing or anything else.
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So, I think you have an interesting concept, but, it sounds impractical.

Here in New York City, we’re not afraid of different people and the various religions to which they adhere.
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We’re not sniveling little bedwetters, which is why there are “so many Mosques in NYC.”
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Come to New York sometime, and you’ll see all of us not being as afraid of each other as you’d have us, if your brand of cowardice somehow got hold of our brave City.
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Go back to whatever country you came from, you’re obviously not from the Land of the Free nor the Home of the Brave.

I was raised Catholic and, believe me, Catholics absolutely see the Catholic Church as the ultimate and superior church and always hope for all other faiths to convert to the ultimate faith of Catholicism.
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That doesn’t imply that any Catholics for the past few centuries convert by the sword and in no way means that Catholic Churches should, in the US, be limited to particular areas determined by the government above and beyond simple zoning laws.

Do the math:
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One billion Muslims.
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19 Hijackers.
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If you wanted to claim that bin Laden could have found ten times as many or even 100 times as many people who would have wanted to do this, you still come up with less than 1% of 1% of 1% terrorists.
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By no means is killing my distant cousin in 9/11 among thousands of others an acceptable thing, but, it is not the fault nor the responsibility of all Muslims more than being a conservative means that you are responsible for McVeigh.
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Saying that McVeigh was not a conservative is an outright lie.
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Saying that more than 1% of 1% of 1% of American conservatives agree with McVeigh would be slander against conservatives who, at worst, are really annoying to debate against.
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(Actually, at worst so far is one guy here who made threats against me and many ad hominem insults – but, McVeigh did infinitely more than just hurt people’s feelings).

In a strange way, I prefer he be the front runner from the Republic party because he doesn’t have even the pretense of ignorance that Palin has.

Patrick, I see that you have started to adopt the habits of the wingnuts.
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Maybe, you are not doing it consciously. But it does not hurt to call them the Republican party.

“We’re not sniveling little bedwetters, which is why there are “so many Mosques in NYC….Go back to whatever country you came from, you’re obviously not from the Land of the Free nor the Home of the Brave.”
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Damn! I wish I said that.
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Thnx Stuart.

anoracle, Will you please lend your spare tinfoil hat to our resident swampnut, newrustyblog?
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In exchange, you will get a 100% discount on the “survival seeds bank” that Rusty flogs on his blog site.

You mean Newt will get Newtered?

Great stuff guys. This is something I’ve been thinking of quite a bit recently. Both religions, have some outrageously bloody stains on their histories, and i don’t think trying to compare bloodiness will get anywhere. Comparing their sacred texts is worth something, but obviously, people come up with wildly different practices/philosophies that are supposedly based on the same text. I know the Bible pretty well, and those that focus on the recorded teachings of Christ are using an wonderfully peaceful source. People like me could easily show how the Catholic church of old, or violent modern groups claiming biblical inspiration were abusing the text, but what if i had only read the first 1/2 the Bible just like i’ve done with the Koran? i would probably have a horrible impression of both. Samson (hero of the Christian faith) was a successful suicide bomber!
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the point is, though the Koran seems pretty violent to me, many people have managed a peaceable religious practice within Islam. this country can not go picking a fight with the entire Islamic world over our impression of the text. If you want violent muslims, just take the advice of those like Krauthammer and my dad and have our president “call it for what it is” and condemn their religion as barbaric.
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people read an awful lot of their own values/ideas into religious texts. muslims will be much more likely to radicalize if they have non-religious reasons for hating the modern western world. we NEED to avoid this by making our war against terrorism alone, and not at all about Islam itself, even though, as it seems to many of us, the Koran really can be read to support violence.

Where are the voices of the moderate Republicans? Are they afraid of being shunned by other Republicans, or do they secretly agree with a more radical interpretation of Republicanism?

Or to further drill this in (and steal a quote from The West Wing at the same time):
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Militant Islam is to Islam as the KKK is to Christianity.
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So to that in perspective… This is like freaking out because someone built a Christian Community Center (equivalent: Islamic Community Center) in Birmingham, Alabama (equivalent: near Ground Zero). If it was a KKK Recruiting Center (equivalent: Militant Training Camp), I could see your point. Since it’s not, stop spreading ignorance.

Joe Klein can go fu_(& himself.

So can the rest of you, “We are so bad ass that we’ll just crap right in our mouths and say it tastes good New Yorkers.”

Seriously, Newt sucks balls…but, the lack of respect and awareness by the Islamic community for even thinking it is appropriate to build a Mosque at this is just plain egregious.

Just because you can do something does not make it appropriate. It makes many people think there is additional agenda.

If the Islamic community wanted to restore the faith of many American people, they would forget about this ridiculous effort.

Seriously…

As a guy who has been to the left of Ralph Nader for around 30 years, I find it weird (very weird) to be forced to side with Newt Gingrich on an issue. To me, this ‘plan’ is tantamount to building a monument to Emperor Hirohito at Pearl Harbor with the rationalization that he was actually a man of peace, not war. It was his generals, after all, who were ‘actually’ to blame for the attack. Frankly, the idea of building a mosque at Ground Zero doesn’t even deserve debate really. It’s just idiotic and I only hope that someone is trying to make a rhetorical point about religious freedom here and not offering a serious proposition. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

P.S. The problem isn’t Islam, btw, it’s religion generally. I recommend ‘Religilous’ by Bill Maher. It may clue many of you in to the real danger. Really? Build a mosque at Ground Zero? Really? How about draping Martin Luther King’s tomb with a Confederate flag? I am beginning to think America is getting just butt dumber by the decade.

Mike – You seem like a “thinking man”…Bill Maher is tripe…forget about mentioning you read him.

I agree though: organized religion is a much bigger issue than just Islam.

America is not dumber; same as it always has been. We are just now more informed.

please check out http://www.islamicsolutions.com/islam-gave-the-world-the-gift-of-liberty/

Not true Elvis! Most of us are friendly with, and very tolerant of blacks and muslims and therefore don’t consider them enemies at all. It’s your garden variety Liberal (foaming at the mouth types like Pelosi, Reid, and Obama) that we’ll never share foxholes with. Nice try, comrade, but isn’t it just about time for the Left to stop these tired, wirn out class warfare plays?

But you’re OK with tax cheats, liars, strong-arm thugs, and ineligible presidents in the Whitehouse as long as they fit the progressive mold?

Well, I wouldn’t hold out too much hope for averting the mosque’s construction.

After all, “they’re just some people from the neighborhood” to paraphrase Dear Leader Obama’s retort to questions about the Ayers being at his little tea party in Chicago.

I suppose it’d be too much to follow-up with Ayer’s quote in response to questions of whether he felt guilt or shame for the lives of innocent people:

“I wish we’d done more.”

Now, if you’ll excuse me I have to work on my plans to build a Roman Catholic cathedral in Mecca. We’re going to put a Kingdom Hall for Jehovah’s Witnesses right alongside and a synagogue across the street. Maybe a McDonalds and a Starbucks if the numbers crunch. We’re hoping to site them in full view of the Masjid al-Haram and aren’t the least bit worried that non believers aren’t allowed, at all, into Mecca. We’re confident the adherents of this remarkably tolerant religion will be excited over the new choices we’ll be affording them.

After that there’s the new Disney park in Hiroshima to think about–can’t be too sure though–might have to alternate site it in Nagasaki. I can only pray that the indigenous people of Japan will look upon Mickey’s smiling face and know we never meant them any real harm.

Of course, I understand completely that this ISN’T anything like liberals complaining about southerners who fly the Confederate flag. That’s completely different. Anyone can see that… isn’t that right? Hello? Anyone home?

Is now a bad time to remind everyone that the minister who baptized the Obama’s children is fond of saying “god damn America?”

Otherwise, what more can I say about the Islamic love fest with New York other than to say:

New York, New York, The town so nice, they bombed it twice.

(three times actually for the hypertechnical but I don’t want to quibble)

Seems to me like a lot of lefties here are in a huge lather over the thought that Gingrich might join the race. Are these cries evidence of serious concern that he might just have a genuine chance?

I have to disagree with a number of posts i’ve read so far. We don’t become Saudi-like by saying ‘no’ to the mosque in the vicinity of Ground Zero – ours would still be a very very different society than what they have. Saying that there are ‘good’ and ‘bad’ Muslims and we need to support the ‘good’, is just too simplistic. We enjoy freedom of speech in this country and can say what we like, but most avoid using the ‘n’ word for instance. Same thing with religious freedom; it doesn’t imply that anything and everything can be done by any group(religious or otherwise) and the rest of society should just put up with it. The supporters of this mosque could very well have chosen a location other than the one in close proximity to Ground Zero – their intent(assuming it is ‘… to promote better inter-faith relations…’) is going to have the opposite effect. The extremist crackpot elements amongst the followers of islam may be a minority but they seem to be firmly in the drivers seat – a quick peek at what’s happening in europe, britain … will give you an idea as to what ‘political correctness’ has gotten them into. As for what Newt said, it’s next to impossible to know what a politician or any public figure, dem or repub, truly believes. Come election time, they’ll say just about anything.

I agree with your assessment of the Islamic community in NY. Given that they’ve decided to push this though, one is left with only two conclusions… Either they don’t give a rat’s ass about what others think, or they’re doing this to make a statement thus demonstrating their power. Both are evidence of serious problems on the horizon. If they wnat to do the right thing, they’ll build their mosque elsewhere. It is after all, a big country.

“Build a mosque at Ground Zero? Really? How about draping Martin Luther King’s tomb with a Confederate flag? I am beginning to think America is getting just butt dumber by the decade.”

Exactly. Maybe the Aryan Nation can build a cultural information musuem at Auchwitz, or the militia movement build a recruitment center in Oklahoma. Their motives would be questioned immediately. Why isn’t this being done in NYC? And if you do, you are labelled a racist (even though Islam isn’t a race) or a loon.

You’re on the right track, more like people lack critical thinking skills, and becoming complacent with what they are told.

Where did the money for the mosque come from? And why does it have a planned opening date of 9/11/2011?

http://www.meforum.org/2678/ground-zero-mosque

The right to worship as you see fit, unobstructed by the government is enshrined in the Constitution. It’s there for a reason. You can’t single out any particular religion for special treatment if you actually believe in Freedom.
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Of course the number of people who don’t actually understand Freedom is rather alarming.

While I would generally agree with what you wrote above, particularly about christianity in the early stages, I have a problem with this
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Muhammed, a warrior who imposed his religious philosophy through violent conquest. This simple point is evidence enough that Islam is not, just now, evolving through its violent stage
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Please, find this evidence. Because there’s plenty of contrary evidence; that Islam did not rely on violence to spread any more than christianity did.
http://www.whyislam.org/SocialOrder/Jihad/WasIslamSpreadBytheSword/tabid/116/Default.aspx
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Secondly, this assertion ignores the fact that early muslims where generally very tolerant of other religions among them.
http://www.islamicinsights.com/religion/clergy-corner/how-did-islam-spread-by-sword-or-by-conversion.html
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Exiled, you’re smart enough not to fall for this inherently evil/violent bull.
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Swiss You make some interesting points about christianity vs islam and the difficulty of interpretation. What I particularly thought was interesting was this line;
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muslims will be much more likely to radicalize if they have non-religious reasons for hating the modern western world
I think you hit the nail on the head here. Religion is often used as an excuse to justify violence, and to conceal less noble motives, like good old fashioned bigotry, xenophobia, and racism.

ineligible presidents in the Whitehouse

Say no more jackass. Birthers are, without a doubt, completely pathetic.

Boy, we have some really un-American people posting here.
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Look, us New Yorkers understand that Muslim people didn’t murder Americans and destroy our city, terrorists did.
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That those bastards happened to be of the Islamic faith doesn’t mean anything about Islam, it only describes a feature of the terrorist network, that’s it.
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A mosque has no resemblance to a burning cross, or a swastika whatsoever, everybody knows that. We walk by mosques in New York City without batting an eye every day. There’s one up the street from me on First Avenue, it has tiny minarets. It’s unremarkable.
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We know these things about Muslims because we know Muslims…they are our neighbors, our fellow commuters, our customers, our vendors.
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Muslims drive us to the train, write our software, own our restaurants, hold our academic conferences, serve us slices of pizza.
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The only people in New York who care overmuch about the terrorists’ religion are in specific communities whose ties to foreign nations produce an antipathy that predates 9/11. If they had a problem with Muslims before that date, they lost no time in condemning a billion people who had nothing to do with that event after it. As many people as there are in New York, that population can seem large, but it’s nowhere near the majority of us.
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The folks who think that mosques have some intrinsic guilt or responsibility or association with the people burning in hell for the crimes they committed on that September morning have no idea what it’s like to live in New York for most of us.
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Building a mosque downtown is one of the most New York-like –one of the most American– things that we could do. People who don’t understand this example of the beauty of America…well, maybe you should just stay away from New York City, we’ll do just fine without you, as always.

“a place where, let’s be clear, thousands of Americans were killed in an attack by radical Islamists”

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/barry-jennings-speaks/

Well, last i checked, we still operate in a capitalist system so there’s nothing wrong with making a buck. Sombody has to pay taxes you know!

“Let’s be clear, thousands of Americans were killed” when the towers were demolished on top of them:

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/wake-up-show/

There is the ‘ideal’ world that we’d all like to live in and then there’s the ‘real’ world that we do actually live in.

Opposition to the ground zero mosque doesn’t imply a lack of understanding of the concept of religious freedom. It’s hard to argue that Islam is just a religion anymore; it has gone beyond just faith in the supernatural and other bells and whistles one commonly associates with a religion. It has morphed into a totalitarian ideology that governs pretty much everything including faith in ‘god’. And a mosque, by extension, is increasingly looked at as a symbol of and monument to that ideology and not just a place of worship by a religious group.

diecash1: Your statement to me saying, “BTW, do you live in NYC? If not, feel free to STFU as it is a local decision that has nothing to do with you.” This is so typically New York Cityish. I sincerely hope this statement represents a minority of NYC’ers.

If you read the Quran(s) (there is an old version and a new version) you will see that not only is it encumbent on all followers of Islam to spread their religion but that they can lie in order to do so, providing the lie does not contradict the Quran. Islam is not just a religion, it is an entire way of life, including an economic system, judicial system, and religion.

I invite you to look into what is happening in several European countries that have large numbers of Muslim residents. Sharia law is creeping into traditional law. This reflects the growing influence of Islam and unless stopped, will result in the conversion of those countries from Judio-Christian societies to a way of life ruled by Islamic beliefsdirectly opposed to what they currently enjoy.

Islam is not just about religion, it’s about maintaining our current freedoms. Were countries such as Saudi Arabia willing to allow the establishment of Judio-Christian churches and schools, I might think differently.

To Joe Klein and all who post comments attached to this article i implore you to read and re-read the revealing and insightful work of Sam Harris (The End Of Faith) where he uncovers how the benign myth of religious ‘moderation’ only fosters the existence of, and provides cover for extremists. The problem is IN the Koran and the Hadith (or any ‘scripture’) itself – just read these seventh century texts! In the eyes of fundamentalists all moderates are FAILED fundamentalists. It is modernity and critical thinking that transforms religions from literalism to more moderate (benign) incarnations… not by reading the texts with a more thorough intention.
Ponder this: “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. ” ~ Steven Weinberg

“Where did the money for the mosque come from?”
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From taxi rides and nurse’s paychecks.
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Taxi drivers, nurses, store clerks, convenience store workers and convenience store owners are more than half Muslim in NYC.
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No, I did not read the link. However, when between jobs I spent time as an NYC taxi driver and I was one of only half who did not celebrate Ramadan.
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Walk into a store in many parts of the city, especially the outer boroughs and you will see a Muslim store clerk and/or a Muslim store owner looking back at you selling you lottery tickets, cigarettes or beer. (Many Muslim store owners do compromise and sell beer if it is part of a chain like 7-11).
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If any of you right wingers knew anything about NYC geography, you would know that almost everybody of all religions walk to their house of worship or, if not, take a very short ride on public transit. Almost every religion has a house of worship every three to five miles in NYC. Downtown before 9/11 had very few residents but, due to tax incentives and the lower prices of office space (which began in the early 1980s unrelated to terrorism) it now has many residents including Muslims.
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Why should, if they have their own money, Muslims have to take 30 minute subway rides to go pray when Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists get to have a house of worship a five minute walk away?
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It is not en route to the World Trade Center.
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It is not visible to the World Trade Center.
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Unless somebody tells you, you would not be able to find this new Mosque from the World Trade Center. You will need directions.
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This not a place for Muslim tourists. This is a place for American citizens and green card holding immigrants who legally reside in NYC!
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You non-New Yorkers are the aliens to New York, not the people who will be praying in the Mosque. The people praying in the Mosque are the ones who you will ask directions from if you are a tourist here.
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So, you non-New Yorkers who do not know NYC, do not know NYC born and raised Muslims who want to sit back, use your imagination from action adventure movies to visualize this should butt out and leave it to NYC to decide where houses of worship can and can’t be and let us continue our proud tradition of religious freedom.
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This Mosque will, also, defuse “The Narrative”.
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“And a mosque, by extension, is increasingly looked at as a symbol of and monument to that ideology and not just a place of worship by a religious group.”
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That’s too bad because most Mosques are based on a design first used in a Christian church, during the time of Constantine I believe. I’d hate to think Christian churches are a symbol of evil and terrorism.
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Reading about the history of man in this thread is like reading about the history of religious wars. That is another very good reason why the church ought to be separated from the state. It’s when you put the two of them together that trouble begins. That is how we end up in wars arguing about metaphysical topics for which there is no inductive evidence with which to settle them, rationally.

I hope you washed your hands after typing this. WWII as our moral highpoint ?

The good olds days when blacks where N***** and women where in the kitchen and our bombers were above Dresden killing innocent women and children in horrific chemical fires….

The moral, financial, military and strategic high point of the USA is July the 28th 2010 and tomorrow there will be new one, July the 29th 2010.

Never before in the history of this nation was there a media so strong and free, so strong infact it literaly jerks the government around with every story. There isn’t a better disinfectant for all the wrongs in this world than the light of day. Take Sherod for exempe.

I’m a liberal but I do think that building a mosque atop ground zero is a inflamatory and proocative. Build the damn thing three streets down FCS.

Well said, someoneonline!

Barak Obama is not a muslim and that whole last paragraph is nonsense.

But I agree with the top ones. There is not need to build it there, it’s realy provocative and shows poor taste.

I invite you to look into what is happening in several European countries that have large numbers of Muslim residents.

You realize that the U.S. is not Europe, yes? We have a history of religious freedom in this country that dates back to the founding times. Religious freedom was a prime reason why many came here.
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Attempting to make your argument based upon what is done is Saudi Arabia is not reasonable. We don’t compare are selves to the worst the world has to offer and equate ourselves to that standard either. We measure up, not down. It’s not possible to be that “shining city on the hill” by being a repressive society.
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The building of a mosque in NYC is a local decision. Are you frequently consulted about homes, churches or malls being built in cities in which you do not reside? No? I wonder why that is. Perhaps you should think about the concepts of religious freedom and local zoning laws and you will see this issue more clearly.

We also have the right to refuse treatment for cancer but most chose otherwise. I used this example because I believe that Islam is as insidious as cancer. It invades society and if unchecked, spreads to all parts of it. As with cancer, it is also as intolerant of it’s host and seeks total domination.

I wouldn’t have it otherwise, but believe our forefathers never dreamed of the consequences when they used freedom of religion as one of the basic tenets of our country. It is our responsibility to ensure this tenet survives the surreptitious attack on our tolerance of religious freedom represented by Islam, a way of life that has no tolerance.

Anoracle, you want to go easy on the meth. It isn’t healthy you know.

That whole argument is bogus. Anyone with half a brain knew that the Iraq war was not about WMD’s at all.

One days the Bush administration woke and decided to go to war for the heck of it. And we ALL saw it happen right before our eyes.

Who can honestly believe that a country that couldnt make Aspirin was suddenly capable of destroying the most powerful nation on earth after ten year of embargo and bombing ?

That has nothing at all to do with the problem at hand.
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Quite appart from the fact that the crusades were conquest and not terrorism (one is motivated by greed, the other by hate).The issue remains should a mosque be build on or near ground zero.
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I believe it should not because a lot of people are angry at muslims for the loss of their loved ones and there isn’t any good reason to make them suffer more than they already have.
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Islam is not on trial here, the mosque on ground zero is.

Having lived in Saudy Arabia I can tell you he would not. A man may have as many wives as he pleases and to divorce he must only say:

- I (state name) divorce you
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Then repeat it three times in public.
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No child support, no courts, no judge, no nothing.
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If Newt was a woman on the other hand he would be hanged in public for adultery and tickets would be sold for his execution. (yep they do that).
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Of course the fact that she would not be allowed to drive or show her face would diminish the chance she (Newt) hooks up with anyone.

Of course hanging is better than stonning, practiced in another pillar nation of islam, Iran.
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Hard to distinguish Iran from Islam as it is a theocracy.
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Wonder why some people might think Islam is generaly violent?

What a surprise, Joe Klein, Islam’s latest Bee-aaach.

Islam has a long and storied history of erecting mosques at the sites of its military victories. Do you really want another one, here on our American shores?

I say NO to this mosque, NO to sharia law and NO to Joe Klein.

Just because

– I’m a birther
– I think Obama is a socialist
– I think Obama’s administration is incompetent
– I compare Obama to Hilter
– I dislike the NAACP
– I don’t support more unemployment benefits

doesn’t mean I’m a racist.

They, they, they… we, we, we… Some of “them” do horrible things. Some of “us” do horrible things. That doesn’t make an entire group of people representative of a small minority in their national or religious group. Would all Catholics have to take responsibility for the child abuse mess? I think not. Would all WASPs have to take responsibility for colonial exploitation of Africa and Asia? What about Americans in general and Tim McVeigh? Should we all be labeled “American Terrorists?”

The expression “MuslimTerrorist” is not one word with the two elements inseparable. There are Muslims, there are terrorists, and there are Muslim terrorists.

We all should think back to the revilement that was heaped on the Irish, Italians, Jews, Greeks and Eastern Europeans in the 19th and well into the 20th century. It was regular practice in daily newspapers to depict the Irish as apes, Italians and Greeks as pigs and Jews as rodents. Even earlier, when the English dispossessed the Dutch in New Amsterdam, the Dutch were depicted as drinking beer from open horse troughs on the street.

In the following post there are a couple of the hundreds of such cartoons published in America.
http://nyliberalstateofmind.blogspot.com/2010/07/looking-to-1920s-for-answers.html

To mrlagg – #45 – did you ever see or ask for any other President’s birth certificate? Of course you didn’t. You waited for the first African-American President, then you asked. Put on your big boy pants and look into your heart. You’re so racist and so in denial.

Just because
– I’m a birther
– I think Obama is a socialist
– I think Obama’s administration is incompetent
– I compare Obama to Hilter
– I dislike the NAACP
– I don’t support more unemployment benefits
doesn’t mean I’m a racist.

No, but it does indicate that you’re a moron lacking in critical thinking skills.

Am I the only one who is finding the word tolerance condescending? I mean, I tolerate opera music or people who talk too loud. What does it mean to have “tolerance for black people?”

Am I missing something? The 911 events and a planned mosque have nothing to do with each other and are not causally related. Is Gingrinch smoking crack? A narcissist has skewed perception and a low level of consciousness as demonstrated by Gingrinch. Make no mistake about it; Gingrinch is a very dangerous angry man. There is a reason American’s rejected Gingrinch and his “contract with America” way back when. Gingrinch and Palin send a message of ignorance, stupidity, and intolerance. Peaceful Islamic people are not the ones who attacked the USA on 911. It was radical terrorists. Terrorists with the very same dangerous fundamentalist mind set as republicans. Terrorists that could not distinguish between a government and its innocent people….just as Gingrinch and Palin cannot distinguish between peaceful law abiding Islamists and law breaking criminal terrorists. A blatant symptom of narcissism which should raise a red flage with every voter is that narcissists and republicans (they are the same mind set and disease) have no discernment skill, cannot see complexity and shades of grey in the issues, and are dominated by black and white childish thinking.

I’m sorry to hear that anyone has to endure the trials of being brought up in a backwards-looking culture. While I can appreciate that, you’re drawing a false equivalency. Here in the USA, Islam is as peaceful a religion as any other. That’s where this is being built: in the USA. If Islam is practiced with barbarity in the nation you were raised in, your issue is with them not the people who will be attending this.

And don’t bring up Europe as a counterpoint. One of the reasons we don’t have the issues with our Middle Eastern immigrants they do is because we offer them the same rights as anyone. There are violations of this but comparatively, muslims in the US are free to practice their religion and fully participate in our society. This has kept them from feeling the resentment they feel overseas. It’s amazing how treating people like decent human beings inspires decent behavior.

No one on the planes on 9/11 were American born or raised muslims. To deny American muslims the right to do something like this is an insult to a community that has only added to our culture. What happens overseas is inconsequential and based on politics, not religion.

Let’s set the stage here, you’ve called Newt dumb and a jerk you’ve called the conservatives yahoos and you have implied that Newt wants to wage war against the Islamic Community, not the radicals or you would have noted that, clearly trying to muddy the man’s good name. At the same time you take the high tone of being tolerant (an ignorant word choice in my opinion because who wants to be just tolerated?) and at the same time you claim to have an eye out for someone that has the “courage to stand up for true American principles”. Justice would be an agreed upon American principle but you have in no way acted justly toward Newt in your assessment of him. The things that shine brightly in your article are your anger, hate, and bitterness toward Newt and the right. Get the log out of your own eye and then….

Agreed, Gingrich is a d bag.

The good thing about this multicultural Islamic center within hailing distance of ground zero is that it will give visitors and residents alike more of a chance to convert to Islam. Talk about increasing tolerance! That might lessen the chance New York or even other parts of the USA internally colonized by New Yorkers will be attacked by Muslims much more irate than those who will be affiliated with the center. What’s not to like?

Again, you’re talking about Muslims in other countries. I live near Dearborn, MI and despite its large Muslim population, I haven’t read any instances of stonings. We don’t need to punish a US community for things being done overseas.

And by the way, I know you weren’t the one to bring this up, but there’s been a lot of talk about how Christianity began as peaceful and Islam began with violence. The only reason this is the case is because Christianity piggy-backed on Judaism which was big on violence and conquest at the beginning as well. And even though Christianity began as a religion of peace, the reason we’re all practicing it is because of the Roman conversion. And we all know how peaceful they were.

The point is what happened hundreds of years ago or in other countries doesn’t matter as much as what’s happening right now with the people living in the US. Religions are living things that adapt to the places and times they’re in. By and large, American Muslims have converted to modern society the same way folks of other faiths have. That’s not the case in other places.

Ohio,
The point that I was making was that Islam is not just now entering a violent phase, as was suggested. We could argue all day about which religion has a more violent history, Christianity or Islam. But these facts remain: Christianity began as a peaceful movement of largely disenfranchised people, led by a carpenter; Islam began as a militant movement comprised largely through tribal affiliation and led by a warrior; while Christianity has succumb to violent tendencies, it has also anachronized and reformed and entered into an new eras; Islam has never anachronized, thus has the same violent elements that existed under Muhammed. I do not say this suggesting that Islam is inherently evil. Not sure where you got that idea from. You see, I am not at all one of those people who views Islam negatively. In fact, I am very susceptible to the traditional culture of Islam and were it not for my unwavering Christian identity, I could very well find myself practicing the Islamic faith. But, it is what it is still, and it has always had elements of religiously justified conquest against Dar-el-Harb.

To call a Joe someone who would’ve aided the Nazis shows that you have no allowed your own prejudices take over your thinking. Therefore you have no perspective on the subject and aren’t someone worth listening to.

We can go back and forth on this all day but at the end of the day, the Islamic center will be built. And several years from now people will wonder what the big deal was. This is just another thing that allows people like Newt to whip up emotion for his own short-term benefit. There are a lot of people who think they know more than they do and it seems they’ll always be a sucker for things like this.

To not allow this center to occupy this site is a violation of US law going back to the Constitution. The end. If you don’t like it because Islam offends you, you don’t have a right to not be offended. Yes free speech doesn’t mean you should yell the n-word, but last I checked there is no law against using it. There seems to be a lot of theoretical concern for the families of those killed but the push to stop this isn’t being driven by them. I’m sure those folks are as mixed in their opinions about it as you would expect. Palin and Gingrich have just found their latest thing to get you angry so they can make money or become more popular.

Next week, let’s argue about flag burning so Mike Huckabee can sell a book about the glory of the flag. I’m sure there are plenty of liberals who do the same thing, but right wingers are so much better at it.

Well, we could look at Salem in the 1700s…

Barring any marketplace obstructions, such as the failure to secure an insurance underwriter for the project, the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America deems that it cannot be obstructed.
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This is a bit of a bow toward Exiled’s comments a few days ago about public safety concerns overriding the permitting process – something I doubt any government entity will be able to do, but insurance companies might…

The progress for blacks in achieving equality and the liberation of women into the workplace both came from the attitudes developed and fostered during the Roosevelt years. Me thinks you are a little deficient in American history if you don’t understand that. As for the bombers over Germany, we were fighting to stop the people who were burning people in ovens. In spite of all the horror during WWII, people gave of themselves to achieve a better world for all of us. Even pro athletes and movie stars gave rather than took! That attitude in America has been in decline for the past sixty years, and especially since the Reagan years (Reagan was the anti-Roosevelt, intent on undoing the common good). I know, I have seen it happen and have done what I could to prevent it, though the battle for such things as saving the environment, sharing national resources fairly with all citizens, guaranteeing universal access to quality education for all, and a whole host of other noble things is now lost. We squandered our last opportunity to keep the ship from sinking when we “elected” G. W. Bush, who quickened the race to the bottom by ignoring longterm problems completely. Now we have probably passed the point of no return, and the best we can hope to do is slow the pace of sinking by working together (but that won’t happen, at least not enough to change the final result).

Chill out you crazy Republicans and Democrats. Stop being told how to think. Start thinking like REAL AMERICANS.

All that needs to be done is this:
Open up a religious book store and art gallery next to the mosque featuring all religions, and among other things, drawings and portraits of the prophet Mohamed.

Give away free Mohamed coloring books to the first 5,000 customers.

Case closed. Let freedom ring.

“If Newt actually believe(s) what he claims to–that the American way is superior–he’d be in favor of placing the mosque near Ground Zero, as a demonstration of American freedom and tolerance.”

Why should he, if that’s not what he believes should happen? He’s got a right to his opinion, correct? Like you say, this is America.

What’s interesting to me is the knee-jerk tolerance, without much thought about who is behind the mosque, who is funding the mosque (enemies of the US? – could be).
There’s a propensity to look at Islam as just another religion. It’s normally taboo to be critical of another’s “religion.” But there are critics in the case, and for good reason. Islam is not just a religion. This isn’t simply a case of Religious Freedom, it’s about political power (and I’m not talking about Newt’s).
There is plenty of division even among American Muslims over this issue, many who see the wrting on the wall regarding that branch of their faith that wants to impose political hegemony.
So no, this is NOT just about simple tolerance of some passive peaceful religion.
If the mosque goes ahead, then it goes ahead. But realize that some of the forces behind the building of this “mosque/community center” may not have the US’s best interests in mind, and willful ignorance of the intentions of its backers or accusing someone of being prejudiced just for raising the question isn’t very American either.

some of the forces behind the building of this “mosque/community center” may not have the US’s best interests in mind

Baseless accusations do not make for a convincing argument. Perhaps you might provide some evidence?

The other possibility is that the builders of the mosque don’t hate America.
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Either way, consult the Constitution of the United States of America about whether one can keep the mosque from being built.
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The framers of the Constitution were very, very astute. They knew that what was needed was a durable document that proscribed taking actions based on the heat of the historical moment…

53_3
There’s nothing baseless about it. Do some googling yourself. Start with “Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf” and his ties to “The Muslim Brotherhood.”

The Muslim Brotherhood is dedicated to the long-term project of replacing our Constitution with Sharia. Sounds nuts to think it could happen, but that’s what they want nontheless.

My broader point is, let’s not condemn someone for raising the question.

I didn’t “condemn” you for raising the question; I merely asked for you to provide evidence, not supposition, to support your contentions.

diecash1 – I’m new to this thread so I’ve got my Users all mixed up.
The 53_3 comment was for your response.

And this is for 53_3 and the Constitution -
Yes, I get it. Like I said, if the mosque goes forward, it goes forward. Neither I nor Newt is suggesting the Constitution be changed.

diecash1 – Yep I know you weren’t condemning me. I was refering back to the aricle condemning the Newter.

Nowadays, when a large part of the GOP seems leaning toward far-right populism, with appalling politicians surfing every xenophobic wave and racist bigots regurgitating their ignorant and ludicrous propaganda, the numerous sensible and interesting comments that I was able to be read here were more than welcome.

Hey smacc1…. you are so spot on here and i wish others caught up in cultural/religious relativism would experience a consciousness breakthrough regarding this. At this time in history NOT all religions are equal in their beliefs and practices and should not be afforded ‘respect’ and tacit acceptance. A religion that has no reservations about genital mutilation, oppressing, abusing, and disenfranchising half its population (women), outright ‘honor’ killing for adultery, homosexuality, or being a rape VICTIM, and a core intention of converting all non-muslims or politically dominating them …. well then a re-evaluation of this politically correct ‘suicidal’ disposition is in order. Speaking out and resisting stupid Iron-Age thinking and behavior whether it exists in a secular or religious arena is now essential for a flourishing existence.

Actually, none of you get it:
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Every religion has a bloody history. No points for any of you there.
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You are all participating in a “heat of the moment” that our forefathers had the astuteness to proscribe with that pesky First Amendment.
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The United States, whatever one’s opinion of another’s religion is, is ruled by a secular government that is obligated to keep it that way.
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Now, if any of these wanna-be Ayatollahs want to dispute that, that’s fine. Because, unlike Iran the First Amendment enforces the concept of separation of church* and state.
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*Place of worship. Whatever…

The above is a general broadcast intended for all the commenters – particularly those who keep trying to one-up the opposition on how violent – and thus – undeserving of consideration – another religion is.
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Mix that in with attempts to use such reasoning to fire up populist anger (particularly when the target is the separation and state!) to circumvent the First Amendment as Newt is trying for, and you get…
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…Iran…

I would like to commend Newt Gingrich for his stance. I’d like to commend him because this debate has a way of working several folks’ blood up in a way they cast off their “Constitutional Constructionist” and “Compassionate Conservative” costumes and expose themselves as the xenophobic bigots they are. To the rational conservatives on this blog, I’m sorry these folks tar your good name. For the rest of us, it’s always refreshing to see them show their true colors.

This is not a stance on what Newt said so much but rather what it prompted you to post. You state that conservatives lump the peaceful muslims together with the radical terrorists and that it is something akin to neanderthal like racism. I know a couple who was stranded in London because their flight back to the United States was cancelled on 09-11- 2001 because of the terrorist attacks in the U.S.. They expressed amazement that there were thousands and thousands of muslims dancing and marching for days in the streets celebrating the harm that had befallen the United States. Another example I would like to mention is when the teacher from England who took her class to Sudan and she was arrested for letting one of her seven year old grade school students call a teddy bear Mohammed. “The Blasphemous Teddy Bear- TIMe
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1687755,00.html
The news media showed thousands of people if not millions of people, muslims, marching in the streets for days demanding that the government execute the teacher.
Your post evidently classifies these marchers in both cases as terrorists which would mean that there are literally millions of terrorists. They appear to me to be average muslims. My suggestion to the average, large majority of peace loving muslims would be to make a point of visibly and verbally separating themselves from the terrorists and the murdering stance that the terrorists have taken. Otherwise during times of extreme tension the peace loving muslims are going to be erroneously associated with the terrorists and their view point.

53_3:

Actually, none of you get it:
Every religion has a bloody history. No points for any of you there.

That’s the point exactly, for most other religions, it is in their history, for Islam, violence is present and active.
.
And to all you shouting about the constitution, how well did a constitutional provision help the makers of the South Park TV show? Do you think the constitution will be able to protect me if I want to have a Muhammad comic store across the street from this mosque?

i use to live in a predominately muslim country,
Build the Mosque, build them everywhere and when they are enough of them the muslims will start the cleansing of America by killing the gays, putting women in their places and killing the liberals, they will accept the right wing as brothers…..ironic is it not.

still no points walkingfunny:
.
What about the crackhead right? There have been 11 killed so far this year – the same number of American lives Islamists have taken.
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As for putting up that store, You are free to do so. The Constitution says so…

Here’s a free-market twist that oughtta appeal to you:
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If insurance companies deem your business is too great a risk to underwrite, preventing your from building it, should the government intervene? Can they intervene? Should they intervene?
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Tough, chewy food for thought…

“I invite you to look into what is happening in several European countries that have large numbers of Muslim residents.”
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This is amazing!
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Liberals point out that Europeans have a far better health care system because it is nationalized.
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Conservatives say that America is special and this does not count.
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Liberals point out that Europeans provide far, far more for education.
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Conservatives say that America is special, so this doesn’t count.
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Liberals point out the to handle traffic jams and pollution Europe has high gasoline taxes and subsidies for public transit.
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Conservatives turn up their nose again.
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Liberals point out how Europeans handle education far better.
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Conservatives do not pay attention again.
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Now when it comes to religious intolerance in some parts of Western Europe, conservatives now ADORE Europe!
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Un fking believable!

“Justice would be an agreed upon American principle but you have in no way acted justly toward Newt in your assessment of him. The things that shine brightly in your article are your anger, hate, and bitterness toward Newt and the right. Get the log out of your own eye and then….”
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I know that I do not have a log in my eye but you may have trouble seeing it with your cranium so deeply lodged into your colon.
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Tolerant means if you and other law abiding citizens want to purchase a building to share your political, religious ideas with one another, go ahead.
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Who is asking to knock down the building Newt Gingrich is in?
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Who is asking to close down the church Newt Gingrich attends?
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Who is asking to forbid Gingrich from going to private property as an invited guest to any building in New York or anywhere else in the United States?
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Nobody.
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Who here says that they are Muslim?
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Who here says that Muslims should be knocking on doors like Jehovah’s Witnesses or Moromons?
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Who here is saying that they should elect any of the people at this Mosque to a government office?
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Nobody.
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Muslims have the right to be Muslims no matter how strange it seems to us, we have a right to have our own religion or no religion at all and find their religion strange or good. Gingrich has the right to be Gingrich and we have the right to say what we think as long as we are not planning to use force or the force of the government from saying things which contradict American tradition for centuries and everything our founding fathers stood for.
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We are practicing tolerance.
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Nobody here want the government to shut down your church, your home or even your online service.
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We are just disagreeing with Gingrich and the Anti-American, bigoted, ignorant things he says.
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That’s not intolerance. That’s the other part of the first Amendment – free speech.

Islam is not going to take over the US.
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That is 0% probable for the next 200 years.

Yes, yes, Newt spews propaganda…kinda like the Time…hmmm?Lets hope christians plant the next 500 car bombs, so we can catch up with the religion of peace. Where’s Tim McVie when the left needs him?

Sorry nooseloose:
..
Timmy was all yours.
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Pick better heroes…

Really a good site blog …

Thanks guys for making this site more informatic and usefull.

Thanks,
Riya Gupta (Marketing Manager)
http://www.testingmantra.com

Looking forward to Joe Klein blogging on the rights of neo-nazis to build a cultural center on the edge of Auschwitz…. oh wait hes a hypocrite?

Absolute freedom is called anarchy.

“…free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre…”

‘Allahu ackbar’ should not be falsely shouted within audible distance of ground zero.

Out of respect, there are plenty of other places in this country to freely build mosques.

Later comes a time to build there.

I believe that Newt is right ,because if we allow the Mosque to be built,it will be a moument to the terrorist who cause all the trouble.The way this person is talking he would let them put up a statue of the Oklahoma City bomber Tim MeVigh at that moument.THE ASNWER TO THIS IS NO WAY CAN YOU BUILD PERIOD…

It’s completely obvious to me that the progressives are afraid of Newt.

I hope he runs – simply because I want to see him annihilate Barack in a debate.

Barack’s inexperience is obvious and his ideological stance on major issues is not shared by myself or a majority of American citizens.

The growth of government by this administration is alarming. The knee-jerk reaction by this administration based on news stories was forefront last week during the Sherrod debacle. That in itself shows the inexperience and reactionary thought process going on in our beloved White House.

No matter which side of the aisle you’re on, this President, who promised to bring everyone together … has failed to do so. His policies and promise of more growth in government is stifling the growth of business and scaring the economy into a wait and see mode.

He’s a one term president, and not a very good one at that.

Signed;
Holding my breath til 2012

A mosque at or near Ground Zero in NYC is “not” an expression of peace. Muslims should be embarrassed at a minimum at the suggestion. I do not expect a show or a statement of embarrassment, but then I could be wrong. The whole idea is a slap in the face to Americans.
The Muslim world must be belly-laughing themselves to sleep with the thought.
The limp wrists that want to buddy up to this idea are the definitions of self-fulfilling prophesies.
Newt, like most of us, has his highs and lows, but he is as correct on this matter as a person could be.
And that’s all I have to say about that.

The key element being “in the 1700s” as we are in 2010 I sugest we look at 2010.

This is the 21st century, get with the program guys.

“the overwhelming majority of Muslims do not consider Al Qada to be anything other than a band of lunatics who steal the Koran and Islam as an excuse to be homicidal lunatics.”

Realy ? That’s not the impression I get from watching Al jeezera’s coverage. How come they always get the Bin Laden tapes if muslims are like any of us hum?

Why not send it to CNN huh ? No difference right ?

PLeeeeeaase GET REAL.

The last five comments are great illustrations of my last one.

It might sound good (it does ok ok) but it’s realy besides the point. No one said you should not build it there because it is too scary.
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The point is simply that it’s very offensive to build a temple to a God and a religion whose representatives murdered 3000 people, on the site of the murders.
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And stop it with this Al quaeda is not islam crap. If they had been disciples of Buddha we would not be having this conversation damn it.
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I’d like to say i’m not a racist red neck, in fact I work with a muslim in my office and we get along realy well and she thinks its moronic to build it there.

edthec, usualy when the nazis come out all reason is gone from the debate. It was limping, thanks for killing it.

Excellent point, personnaly it is what shocks me the most. I expected all these smart muslims they keep talking about to come out of the wood and oppose this.
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Still waiting.

Read “The God delusion” by Dawkins. Much better.

Weird that I have to side with the GOP on this one but thank you michaelatx, beautifully written.
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We have become so politicaly correct we can not admit, even too ourselves, that an entire culture could be simply Bad. Well it is. Bad and violent.
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We should be demanding change, not white washing everything too fit the mainstream narative of “everyone is wonderful”.

Funny, your example seems to undermine your own argument. Timothy McVeigh was a Christian. Does that mean no Christian churches should be allowed near the Oklahoma city bombing site – otherwise it would be a “slap in the face”?

Nazis were mostly Christians. Should we tear down all christian churches near Auschwitz?

Funny how the right wing invokes the Constitution only when it suits them. 2nd Amendment? Oh yeah, always. 1st Amendment? Oh, that depends. Freedom of religion? As long as it means our freedom to suppress other religions.

“It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.”- George Washington

There seems to be blatant ignorance about Islamic historical stategy. Throughout history after a military attack and destruction of a site it was Islamic policy to build a mosque to replace it. This was done to show the superiority of Islam. This is the purpose here since the mosque could be built in other places in NYC but that will not do. It’s not about building a mosque – it’s about the place – so as to make a statement of superiority over a enemy. This is serious to them and we should not be so easily duped.

@c5back9: This kind of formulaic, purposely irrelevant evasion is killing our political discourse. You–yes, you–are making our country ungovernable.

If only you had some sense of how risibly absurd your rubbish is; but if you had that sense you wouldn’t write rubbish, and we’d have some hope. Thanks for killing us.

@c5back9. This country gets less capitalist by the second thanks to our current president; anti republican press, like the author of this article; and really smart bloggers, like ‘Paul-no not that one.’

Keep up the lunacy fools!

Love,

Buh-Buh-Buh-Buh Benny Franklin

My favorite thing about reading all of the so called “open minded” liberal anti-Gingrich posts here is the fact that all of you are just as close minded as he is just on the opposite end of the political spectrum.

My second favorite thing is the general liberal concensus that Gingrich is not smart. He speaks Conservative, while you only understand Liberal…for that you call him stupid. That is like me assuming everybody that speaks Japanese is stupid because I don’t understand Japanese. Good show liberals!

Way to keep those minds open!!

Buh-Buh-Buh-Buh Benny Franklin

Glenn Beck?? Is that you??? Did you forget to take your meds again?

Newt,
Did you have such reservations about that Mount Rushmore thing carved into Lakota sacred lands?

Newt has the same problem as Palin when it comes to a potential run for President – while his base may love him, he has no appeal at all to independent and swing voters. There is no way Newt or Palin will be the Republican nominee because while they may whip up the base in the primary, they are unelectable in the general election. It would be every Liberals dream to have a Palin vs. Obama election in 2012, and a Newt vs. Obama bid wouldn’t be much better for the right. This is coming from an Independent who has voted both Rep. and Dem., not a liberal. There are some potential Republican candidates I would vote for but either of those two would result in an automatic Obama vote for me personally. President Palin – I would be embarrassed.
As for the mosque two blocks from ground zero, whether you like it or not it will be built. It isn’t illegal, and the Constitution grants freedom of religion. For those of you arguing that Islam isn’t a religion or shouldn’t be accorded the same rights as other religions, good luck with that one in a court of law. Instead of whipping yourselves up into a frenzy over this, maybe we could get equally excited about reducing the deficit or something else really important.

Wow…this is by far the best post I have read on this subject!

Construction on Mt. Rushmore stopped in 1941. Newt was born in 1943…so I doubt he had an opinion on the matter. There is no proof of this–but I hear Newt’s Mother’s eggs were picketing up and down her fallopian tubes.

Thanks 4dakboy, my head hurts now.

Love,

BENNY!

This lifelong New Yorker and card-carrying liberal who is not running for President happens to agree that it is an affront, insult and other words I can’t write here to put this thing so close to the World Trade Center site.

And I have to wonder who is writing the checks for this $100 million edifice. The same guys who harbored and/or funded and/or helped train the guys who blew up lower Manhattan?

There are plenty of empty lots and buildings elsewhere in Manhattan, and the other boroughs, too, where the rents are cheaper and the tax breaks better. Or, just send everybody uptown to the block-square mosque on 96th Street and Third Ave. that’s been there for a decade already.

Or, send everybody to the Muslim education center bordering the Van Wyck Expressway to JFK that the 9/11 bombers surely passed on their drive to destruction.

Nope. Against it.

@diecash1

As I see it, there’s nothing pathetic about defending the constitution, including your right to hold the moronic opinions you obviously do. I’ll “say no more” when Barry, Pelosi, Reid, and others who would circumvent the constitution to meet personal agendas are finally and permanently out of office. No reply necessary ass-wipe, but if you must, go ahead, it’s still a free country.

@credulousdolt

Blah, blah, November is just around the corner . I wish I could see the lather steaming from your mouth after as the tax and spend democratic-socialists are sent packing. You and your type are totally intolerant, and fair minded Americans now see through your rhetoric. Keep on beating the same tired old drum though, it’s working just fine for my side.

I just found out that Newt Gingrich will be leading the crusade against the Mosque in NY next month.
We need crusaders like Newt to do the work of Christ and remind everyone that we are a nation of Christians. I think history repeats and from Spanish Inquisition to Richard the lion heart we had great Christian crusades. Newt Gingrich and Rev. Franklin Graham are America’s modern day Crusaders.
I hope that Newt Gingrich will be our new President in 2012.