In the Arena

On Journolist

Journalists are an oxymoronic tribe of fierce individualists. We’re in constant competition with each other, but we’re thrown into each other’s company–on press buses and planes–and often find ourselves in coy discussions about the amazing things we witness together. This is the stuff of memorable and close friendships; it is also valuable professionally to hear what others are thinking and test your ideas against theirs (as obliquely as possible because you don’t want people stealing your stuff).

During 40 years as a journalist, I’ve been on many press buses and planes–and I’ve also been part of other regular conversations, all of which I’ve enjoyed and learned from; none of which were in the slightest bit insidious. The most memorable of these–and one that really helped me to shape my thinking about domestic policy issues twenty years ago–was the New Paradigm Society, a bipartisan group of centrists who met regularly for dinner in Washington at the turn of the 90s. It was co-founded by Jim Pinkerton of President Bush the Elder’s staff and Elaine Kamarck (soon to be a prominent member of Al Gore’s staff). The group addressed a central conundrum: the welfare state wasn’t going to be abolished–not even the arch-conservative Ronald Reagan could do that–but it wasn’t working very well, either. There were some great conversations and arguments that took place about how to fix the welfare system, education, housing, health care and the entitlements. The conservatives in the group tended to worry about how to provide those services less expensively; the liberals tended to worry about how to provide them more effectively. Some incredibly creative synergies emerged; other discussions were just a waste of time. Politicians as diverse as Newt Gingrich and Bruce Babbitt were occasional visitors. The friends I made there–people like Pinkerton, Kamarck, Bill Galston–remain friends to this day (others, like Paul Gigot of the Wall Street Journal editorial page, have become friendly adversaries).

At other times in my career, I was part of a regular lunch group of political reporters in New York in the 1980s, and part of a New Testament Bible study in Washington in the 90s (I wanted to learn more about the teachings of Jesus; I went on to study 1st century Christianity for a semester at Columbia University).

All of which is to say that my participation in the now–rather hilariously–controversial list-serve called Journolist was nothing unique in my history. It began with an argument I had with Ezra Klein, a young blogger who knew, who knows, a hell of a lot about health care. I’m not sure what we were arguing about, but I asked if he’d like to have breakfast and hash it out in person. We did, became friends and he asked me to join his list-serve–which, he said, would be the kind of place to have the sort of creative discussion we’d had over breakfast. It turned out to be exactly that…and more, a place to chat about music and sports, a place to meet some spectacularly smart academics I’d not met before–and, not least, a chance to interact with the latest generation of opinion journalists, most of whom didn’t have a very high opinion of me.

There were 100s of emails popping up in my Journolist file every day, on a range of subjects; I read only a fraction of them. The list tended to focus on economics and health care; I was more interested in foreign policy. I was one of the more moderate members of the group and, on more than one occasion–in fact, in most cases–I found that I had to defend myself against onslaughts from my left. I think my views influenced some of those who attacked me; I know that their views influenced me, forced me to deal with arguments I hadn’t considered, and even changed my mind in a couple of instances.

These conversations were private, as most good ones are. We were taking risks, testing our ideas against others–just as I had with the New Paradigm Society. On occasion, someone proposed some sort of joint action. This was ridiculous, of course; I politely ignored these efforts, as did all of the other experienced journalists on the list. The only joint actions that worked, to my recollection, involved meeting up at some bar. Journalists don’t do joint actions; opinion journalists like me are paid to have our own thoughts–we hoard them jealously until we publish them. Today, the Daily Caller has printed one of my Journolist emails, in which I share my latest published thinking about the just-announced Republican vice presidential candidate and thank the group–in an ironic, overblown tone–for the conversation we’d been having on the subject. When seen through the lens of witless right-wing conspiracy mongering, this seems embarrassing. But there was no conspiracy afoot. I didn’t need the folks on Journolist to figure out how to react to Sarah Palin: her lack of qualifications for the vice presidency–and her spectacular abilities as a stand-up politician–represented a fecund gusher of material that made even the most mediocre of columnists seem like geniuses. Writing about Palin was not hard work; it still isn’t; it will never be.

I am offended that my private correspondence was leaked and published. I suffered another such instance a year ago, when some negative comments I made on Journolist about Glenn Greenwald were leaked (undoubtedly by one of the many Greenwald supporters on the list). Such incidents are annoying, but inconsequential. The views I expressed on Journolist were the views I express here. What I do miss though is the sparring, the intellectual stimulation that Journolist occasionally offered. I’m sad it no longer exists and I don’t regret for a moment being part of it.

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  • marvyt

    I don’t see any problem with anyone’s participation in Journolist. There are private conservative listservs and private listservs for different professions. Conservatives are trying to paint this group as some sort of secret conspiracy designed to maintain the mythical “liberal media”. It’s unfortunate that something like Journolist can’t exist.

  • kfgold

    Well said.

  • shepherdwong

    “…one that really helped me to shape my thinking about domestic policy issues twenty years ago–was the New Paradigm Society, a bipartisan group of centrists…Politicians as diverse as Newt Gingrich and Bruce Babbitt were occasional visitors. The friends I made there–people like Pinkerton, Kamarck, Bill Galston–remain friends to this day (others, like Paul Gigot of the Wall Street Journal editorial page, have become friendly adversaries).”
    .
    Wow, what an amazingly diverse array of thinking – everything from hard right to center-right ideology. Thanks for describing your formative experiences, Joe, it really helps.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704684604575381083191313448.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read thats the top article today for WSJ. It seems pretty fair actually, except for how it speaks of journalism in general, when it’s opinion writers at issue… i think.
    .
    its my understanding that the ppl on this list are mostly opinion writers, correct? So obviously, at least to some extent, many will have a common agenda. It does get get into conspiracy territory when you get to the point of calling for everyone to target some arbitrary individual as a racist in order to protect the president. That one didn’t end up going anywhere, and if that was the most damning example that came out of it all, it doesn’t seem like the list-serv was abused like that regularly
    .
    I would certainly prefer that journalists didn’t have such a huge forum for secretly discussing strategy for controlling the news cycle, but I can certianly understand the value of being able to argue with just other journalists privately. Commenters here can have at it, but i’m sure if I had to worry about my professional reputation being dragged through the mud over any nasty little quote, I would find it difficult to have any quality arguments. I would be that “private” list-serve’s biggest fan

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    and Paul Gigot is a sleaze on the level of John Edwards. watching him on the Journal Editorial report makes me sick.

  • m0mentom0ri

    This seems to be a forming modus operandi for the rabid right-wing. Wasn’t the AG for Virginia subpoenaing the emails of scientists in an attempt to get some dirt as part of the manufactured ‘Climategate’ scandal? And I still remember Michelle Malkin stalking children as part of the SCHIP debate.
    .
    They’ll be going through your garbage soon, Joe.

  • kewalo

    It really shows that Jon Stewart was right about Tucker all those years ago.

    Doesn’t it seem that he has painted a huge target on his back pissing off so many writers? I’m waiting for his comeuppance with glee.

  • Alex Vallas

    What scares me, no terrifies me, is the number of reporters who state their personal opinions as fact. They will also try to force the persons they are interviewing to agree with their views by phrasing a question in a way that confirms their bias. “Don’t you agree the President should have visited the Gulf area earlier or do you not think the spill is that important?” I see that type of questioning all the time by the so-called “news analyst.” So many try hard to get the “gotcha.” moment and many are effective with those tactics.

  • rdw56

    It can exist but is dangerous because the premise is a joke. Journolist suggests these are objective people only in pursuit of the truth with zero ideological baggage. That’s total nonsense. The only fools who believe that garbage are the elitists snobs peddling it. Joe is the quintessential elitist snob clueless to how obvious his leftist biases and thus not a true journalist in the way of John Burns of the NYT’s. You know what Joe’s positions are going to be before he writes them. There was never a chance he’d be positive on Sarah Palin or anyone on the right because he loathes them. His advantage over some of the clowns who are now embarrased at their postings is age and experience. Joe always knew anything could be leaked and that he was in a shrinknig, competitive business.

    Journolist is small potatoes but it’s fun to see how some people talk (write) when they don’t know someone is listening (reading).

  • rdw56

    How can you possibly call Paul Gigot sleezy? He’s one of the most sober and likeable people in the business.

  • rdw56

    Climategate wasn’t manufactured and it was incredibly effective. The Copenhagen meetings were a total disaster and confidence in the science has been shredded. Poll after poll show losses of 10% to as much as 25% is support for GW legislation and Cap and Trade is totally dead. They’re not even talking about it in Europe.

    Actually people have almost totally tuned it out. On a recent poll (Pew or Gallup I think) Global Warming finished 20 out of 20 most important issues. The UN has been permanently damaged and look at Al Gore. The MSM will protect him but the National Enquirer is doing their job for them. In a sane world the fact he just bought his 8th mansion proves him a total horses ass and a fraud but this apparent fettish for massage therapists is pure joy. Your leader is mortally wounded yet as a nobel prize winner will his ego allow him to shun the spotlight? I doubt it. He could own 15 mansions and his own 747. You’d still worship him.

  • groenhagen2

    “But there was no conspiracy afoot. I didn’t need the folks on Journolist to figure out how to react to Sarah Palin: her lack of qualifications for the vice presidency–and her spectacular abilities as a stand-up politician–represented a fecund gusher of material that made even the most mediocre of columnists seem like geniuses.”

    Liberace:

    Did you and your fellow liberal morons on Journolist also discuss Obama’s lack of qualifications for the presidency? If you had spent as much time exposing his lack of qualifications as you did propping him up, we could have been spared all the problems we have experienced during the past 18 months.

    “I am offended that my private correspondence was leaked and published. I suffered another such instance a year ago, when some negative comments I made on Journolist about Glenn Greenwald were leaked (undoubtedly by one of the many Greenwald supporters on the list).”

    Wow. Bet that set off a cat fight.

  • rdw56

    Look at it over time. The fact is this isn’t anything new. Reporters have always been biased. Some are true centrists and really love the craft of reporting so much they try to report all sides. These are the exception to the rule. The problem with journolist is the groupthink that can result and at it’s worst coordination of coverage. For exampe there were entries suggesting those attacking Obama be charged with racism to get them to back off. Well duh, the MSM has been working with liberals to do this forever. It’s nothing new. A few got caught. Not because they think differently but because they’re inexperienced and clumsy. The race card is as old as the hills. It sucks that it’s that way but it’s become mostly ineffective and is counter-productive as often as it’s productive.

    We are so much better off today because we have so much more media. Joe Klein would not in one million years report Al Gore is such an energy pig and a fraud. John Edwards had an affair and a child while running for the WH and Joe looked the other way. On a more serious note Joe tried everything he could to kill BUsh in 2000 and 2004 and failed. His strongest campaign was against the surge and he and the MSM failed miserably. Even after it was clear it was working Joe tried to discredit the reports or assign credit away from Bush and Petraeus. Yet despite his perch at Time he was totally ineffective. Michael Totten was an unpaid embed working on his own reporting from Iraq getting links from all over the new media and reaching an audience far larger than Joe’s reporting on all phases of the surge far more intelligently than Joe and the entire staff at Time. The fact is core support for Petraeus and the surge never wavered because people who don’t get their news from the MSM knew it was working.

    The surge represents a turning point in the Media. The MSM was largely able to define Vietnam in a negative way because they decided what the public would see. The were the gatekeepers elitsts think are so vital. Sane people disagree.

  • stuartzechman

    Climategate wasn’t manufactured…
    .
    This is untrue.
    .
    Here is the British publication The Guardian on the matter:
    .
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jul/07/climate-emails-question-answer

    What is “climategate”?
    .
    It is the controversy over a set of over 1,000 private emails and many other documents that were stolen or leaked from the University of East Anglia’s (UEA) Climatic Research Unit (CRU) in November 2009. All the emails involved CRU staff, principally the CRU head Phil Jones, but in correspondence with many of the world’s leading climate scientists, including the main researcher behind the “hockey stick” graph, Michael Mann. CRU’s speciality was reconstructing records of the Earth’s past temperatures from thermometer data and “proxy” such as tree-ring measurements.

    .
    Why did it cause such a storm?
    .
    Selected contents of the emails were used by some to suggest that scientists had been manipulating or hiding data, had been working together to frustrate people requesting access to the data and to prevent journal papers they disagreed with from appearing. Climate sceptics believed they had found the “smoking gun” which confirmed their belief that global warming was not happening. You can read five key emails here, with commentary from Fred Pearce. The impact of the emails was amplified because they were released just weeks before the major UN climate change summit in Copenhagen, at a time when the threat of climate change and the need for global action was at the forefront of public attention.

    .
    Do the emails show that climate change science is a sham and that the world is not warming?
    .
    No they don’t. The claims made by Sarah Palin, among many others, have been comprehensively debunked.

    In other words, this is the same sort of scandal-story as the one created by the selectively edited video of Shirley Sherrod’s remarks. Similarly, it was manufactured by paid, partisan liars.
    .
    …And repeated by dolts, liars and the serially misinformed, despite obvious correction.

  • acameronw

    groenhagen2

    (“2″? My God, there’s more than one of you?)

    Professionals of all stripes have professional organizations and forums where they talk confidentially to their peers and – to use slang that surely dates me – let their hair down. If like minded opinion journalists want to do the same, what’s the crime?

    Oh, wait. I know what the crime is. They had the temerity to find one candidate for high office qualified and another, well, not so much. That’s not a conspiracy; it’s people who disagree with you agreeing with each other.

    And if you think O’Reilly and Hannity and Kelly and their office mates don’t do the same thing around the water cooler, guess again.

    One more thing. How many of your emails sent in complete confidence and with a full expectation of privacy would you like to see distributed without your consent? That’s the kind of thing an old style conservative would be concerned about.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Does it ever occur to Convservatives that their point of view might have more appeal if they weren’t such a$$holes?
    .
    I know its a stupid question. Forget I asked…..

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Did you and your fellow liberal morons on Journolist also discuss Obama’s lack of qualifications for the presidency?”
    .
    I am sure you call him Liberace because his work with the keyboard is like music to your ears.
    .
    It’s either that or your endless quest for gay sex.
    .
    Obama:
    Succeeded in being the president of the Harvard Law Review arguably making him one of the best two or three law students in America that year.
    .
    McCain: No Law degree.
    .
    GWB: while AWOL from the Alabama Air National Guard and missing drug test, was the bottom of his MBA class which he got into through family connections. (His father and grandfather.)
    .
    Obama: Immediately went on to public service.
    .
    McCain, beaten up by Vietnamese people.
    .
    GWB: Began driving, together, three consecutive businesses his father bought him into the ground.
    .
    Obama: practiced law.
    .
    McCain: Became a Senator.
    .
    GWB: Discovering his alcoholism and drug abuse was ruining his life, found religious fundamentalism while still running businesses into the ground.
    .
    Obama: Became law professor at Ivy League level UC while becoming a state senator.
    .
    McCain: steadily rose in the Senate after Keating scandal.
    .
    GWB: Became less than one term governor of a large state running up large deficit and surrounded by constant partisan bickering due his heavy handed approach.
    .
    Obama: Got elected to the US Senate for part of a term.
    .
    McCain had more experience, but, not all of it was good.
    .
    GWB: Given one opportunity after another and, despite constantly failing, kept on getting the family name and money to buy him a new chance.
    .
    Obama: completely self made man at a relatively very young age (Young enough to be McCain’s son and about fifteen years younger than GWB).
    .
    So, unless you are a completely insane right wing propagandist, there isn’t much to write about Obama, supposedly, not being qualified.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    rdw56,
    .
    You have been a constant source of misinformation and have expressed that one of your biggest sources of information is Rush Limbaugh and Fox News.
    .
    Considering how Fox News broadcast an edited version of Shirley Sherrod’s remarks just the other day to make her speech against the evils of reverse racism into appearing to support reverse racism, it is your news sources, as I have told you before, which are of no remaining credibility.
    .
    So far, rather than admitting that they are a propaganda organization, Fox has blamed the president amd the NAACP for not assuming that Fox was lying about Sherrod.
    .
    Which goes to follow that Fox is a source of information, along with those it hosts opinion programs with who, also, have radio programs are so untrustworthy that rechecking everything they say is the norm, not the exception.
    .
    OTOH, I agree that there is no such thing as a person who is completely unbiased, however, one can compensate or, as in the Sherrod case where the NAACP and Obama felt some sympathy for her in general due to her biography, may overcompensate for one’s biases.
    .
    You believed that we had not had a recession in 30 years, that the Soviets would have lasted significantly longer if it were not for Ronald Reagan (rather than bankruptcy), that Gorbachev, who was in talks with Reagan for five years by the time he had done so was frightened by Reagan’s Berlin Wall speech and, two years later, let the wall come down out of fear of, then, ex-president Alzheimer’s ridden Ronald Reagan, that Hitler liked liberals for anything more than kindling in the oven before his next enemy, Jews and Gypsies were to be killed.
    .
    You are classically misinformed.
    .
    One should always do the opposite of what you believe is best if you want more news sources like the ones you use.

  • apollyon07

    Obama: Immediately went on to public service.
    .
    McCain, beaten up by Vietnamese people.
    .
    WOOOOWWWWWW

  • jbaustian

    Quote: “I didn’t need the folks on Journolist to figure out how to react to Sarah Palin: her lack of qualifications for the vice presidency–and her spectacular abilities as a stand-up politician–represented a fecund gusher of material that made even the most mediocre of columnists seem like geniuses. Writing about Palin was not hard work; it still isn’t; it will never be.”
    .
    Joe, did you ever address Joe Biden’s lack of qualifications? Or ever mention his stupidly absurd and often grossly incorrect statements? You made fun of Bush, McCain, and Palin when they stumbled, but gave Biden and Obama the benefit of doubt. Heck, I’ll bet you never once wrote sarcastically about Obama’s problem pronoucing the word “corps”, as in “navy corpsman” — hint, the p and s are silent. Joe, you claim to be a member of the press corps, even you should know it is not pronounced “press corpse”.
    .
    Joe, my biggest argument is with your very first sentence, where you describe journalists as fierce individualists. Not true — they are a pack of hyenas who will turn viciously on any member of their “profession” who does not toe the party line, and have been since the days of James Callendar in the 1790s. If you did not agree with the far-left hyenas in the Journolist, then you should have publicly and vigorously disagreed, or else quit. I do not passively read blogs when I disagree with everything that is written — I either quit or I join the argument. So your pretending that you belonged to the list but didn’t agree with the politics, or that you rarely participated, or that you were not influenced by what you read — that does not make sense.

  • shepherdwong

    “Did you and your fellow liberal morons on Journolist also discuss Obama’s lack of qualifications for the presidency?”
    .
    Didn’t you vote for George Bush? Twice?!

  • jbaustian

    Patrick, if there are to be consequences to Andrew Breitbart for his selective editing of the original Sherrod tape, then there must be consequences whenever Democrats do the same. If it is dishonest to use statements out of context, then Democrats are those best qualified to instruct on how to argue dishonestly. For the most part, it is all they know how to do — they cannot argue any issue honestly, as logically it would force them to resign from their party and/or from public life.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    To be more fair to McCain, he had shown fairness and great bravery in refusing to be released out of turn, has an extremely high threshold for withstanding physical pain, an extremely strong ability to handle sensory deprivation and a strong constitution for waiting years before he ended up signing a false confession.
    .
    But, fortunately for, basically, all of the presidents we have had including Obama, being locked in a dark room for days on end and having the crap beaten out of you is not a part of being president.
    .
    By contrast, public service is.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “…if there are to be consequences to Andrew Breitbart for his selective editing of the original Sherrod tape, then there must be consequences whenever Democrats do the same. If it is dishonest to use statements out of context, then Democrats are those best qualified to instruct on how to argue dishonestly.”
    .
    J,
    .
    Breibart’s editing made it appear as if Sherrod was saying 180 degrees the opposite of what she was saying.
    .
    As is the case with arguments you disagree with even when you are sincere, you will summarize the points of your opponent in a way they may not have summarized it themselves and leave out things you deem unimportant but they may deem important. However, this results in things being, at worst, 90% accurate.
    .
    Sure, comedian, non-journalist David Letterman used to take GWB remarks out of context to make people laugh, but it was clear that he was not being fair and made no pretense that he was nor that he agreed or disagreed with anything. But, Connan O’Brien used a cut out of Bill Clinton, had somebody stand behind the cut out and use a very exaggerated Arkansas accent saying totally ridiculous things with nobody believing nor intending anybody to believe that this was, actually, president Clinton.
    .
    Ignore comedians and you will not see examples of people’s words being turned 180 degrees around for the purpose of slander from the left much less from the media.
    .
    Briebart is in class with Stalin’s propagandists. (No, he is not a communist in the least, but, he is a propagandist and very manipulative and unfair one).
    .
    Give examples of when the media takes conservatives words and edit them until they have 180 degrees the opposite meaning.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    he moderates the program, but inserts low-ball digs against anything even remotely liberal at every opportunity. that’s really all my impression is based on though. I’ve only read a column or two, and i don’t remember specifics, so what I said above is probably overstated, sorry

  • diecash1

    If it is dishonest to use statements out of context, then Democrats are those best qualified to instruct on how to argue dishonestly. For the most part, it is all they know how to do — they cannot argue any issue honestly, as logically it would force them to resign from their party and/or from public life.

    Care to cite some evidence to back up your obviously biased position?
    ..
    Have you ever noticed that when you paint with such a broad brush you cannot help but be wrong?

  • kevin

    Yep, and it’s more unfortunate at how badly Tucker Carlson is distorting what was said there:
    .
    http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/07/should-you-trust-tucker-carlsons-daily-caller-on-anything-no.html

  • kevin

    Poll after poll show losses of 10% to as much as 25% is support for GW legislation and Cap and Trade is totally dead.
    .
    Hooray for ignorance! Take that, science!

  • kevin

    For most of them, their point of view is being an a$$hole.
    .
    The Republican Party platform basically comes down to three sentiments — “I got mine, f-ck you;” “different people are scary;” and “let’s beat the sh!t out of someone, anyone.

  • Cliff

    Journalists are an oxymoronic tribe of fierce individualists.
    .
    I saw that this first sentence was pure, unmitigated bullsh*t, and I knew not to wade through the rest of the post.

  • firebatfox

    Joe – did you think of this yourself, or did Ezra Klein and Eric Alterman write it for you?

  • stuartzechman

    You should read the rest of the post, because Klein details pretty much how it was that old, discredited Third Way policy and rhetoric came to dominate the Beltway and the Democratic Party, which is why we’re in the boat we’re in right now.

  • shepherdwong

    Journalists are a tribe who, oxymoronically, see themselves as fierce individualists.
    .
    Fixed.

  • Cliff

    Well, I glanced at this as I scrolled down the page to the comments:
    .
    The most memorable of these–and one that really helped me to shape my thinking about domestic policy issues twenty years ago–was the New Paradigm Society, a bipartisan group of centrists who met regularly for dinner in Washington at the turn of the 90s.
    .
    and it reaffirmed my choice.
    .
    I mean, what a surprise! Klein is a dyed in the wool Third Way Centrist! Has been for years now! The New Paradigm Society made him so smart that he advocated for the Iraq War!
    .
    Here’s another bit of wankery:
    .
    At other times in my career, I was part of a regular lunch group of political reporters in New York in the 1980s, and part of a New Testament Bible study in Washington in the 90s (I wanted to learn more about the teachings of Jesus; I went on to study 1st century Christianity for a semester at Columbia University).
    .
    Honestly, who gives a sh*t? I just wasted ten seconds of my life learning that Joe Klein learned about Jesus and managed to fail utterly in applying single lesson from the guy’s life.
    .
    Wake me up on the day that Klein doesn’t advocate for legal immunity for war criminals.

  • mamsp

    With all due respect accept the fact you’ve had your fingers caught in the cookie jar. Accept a dope slap for being dumb enough to be caught.

  • 3xfire3

    Joe,
    .
    Being part of Journolist shows what a hack you really are. How can you sleep at night knowing you were part of a group of media people trying to distort our democracy by plotting activities to print lies to influence our citizens to your political views.
    .
    Your excuses ring hollow. You are not an honorable man. You are an elitist who does not believe in our citizens or our Democracy. You should be ashamed.
    .
    You have lowered yourself beyond words and do not deserve any respect.
    .
    Liberals who believe “The End Justifies the Means” may defend you, but you know in your heart you have let your country down.

  • questionassumptions

    So, how is what Andrew Breitbart did to Sherrod any worse than, as was suggested on Journolist and has been done many times, picking a random conservative enemy and calling them racists without proof? What these affairs are showing is that when push comes to shove, the partisans of both sides are far more interested in winning and destroying their opposition than they are in honesty and truth.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Question,
    .
    Compare the two.
    .
    One is where people bounce ideas off of one another without fully going over the idea because they do not want the idea stolen.
    .
    In parts of this they might, among other things find things which are racist among conservatives that you as a conservative white person may not see it that way.
    .
    In the other, Briebart takes footage and removes parts of it to make it appear to be the opposite of what it was.
    .
    Imagine if a GWB, Gingrich or Palin speech had the word “not” edited out or tacked in so you can hear Palin say “We at the Tea Party want the terrorist to win because we do not love America.”
    .
    Find a mainstream counterpart like that and then make a comparison.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    3X,
    .
    You hate the journalists at time. You hate the posters on the Swamp like me.
    .
    Are you having fun?
    .
    By just tossing out insults are you getting something special accomplished?
    .
    You say that you are very healthy retired CEO. Isn’t there a golf ball with your name on it just waiting for you and your buddies this morning?
    .
    I think it is calling you now. It is not a liberal golf ball. You do not have liberal golf clubs. Go out and enjoy the day if everybody here upsets you so much.

  • bobell

    Patrick — f’cryin’ out loud, do you ever go back and read what you wrote and try to see it as the reader will? It may be literally true that McCain’s time in a Vietnamese prison did very little to acquaint him with the nuances of the American political system, but you don’t have to make it sound as if he deliberately set out to spend that time in prison so as not to learn anything. For his conduct in prison, if for nothing else, he is a true American hero and deserves every honor he has received. (I find his politics anathema, but that’s not the point, is it?)
    .
    I say this as one who shares most of your views on current politics and economics. The problem is that you frequently forfeit credibility with the sort of nonsense your posting on McCain’s background exempllifies. You’re letting down our side when you do that, which is why I bring it up. Slow down a little — there’s no award for posting more words than anyone else.
    .
    And much as I hate to say it, Dubya did cash in big when he sold his share of the Texas Rangers. You can argue that his old man and friends set it up, but you can’t deny that in strictly monetary terms he was a major success in that instance.

  • newfreedomblog

    “You say that you are very healthy retired CEO. Isn’t there a golf ball with your name on it just waiting for you and your buddies this morning?”

    .
    You are nothing but a small, condescending a$$wipe sartor. Someone who comes onto this site to only disparage someone who holds views different than yours. Wake up little boy. Grow up for a change. Why don’t you go play out on the playground with all the rest of the little children instead of telling mature adults what to do.
    .

  • newfreedomblog

    Did it ever occur to you that you started out as being an a$$hole, and you continue to be one?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Bob,
    .
    Yes, that was bellow the belt with McCain on my part.
    .
    His heroism in as a fighter pilot and POW, as admirable and praiseworthy as they were – I especially the part about his insisting that his family connections get him released out of turn – do not directly translate to the administration nor policy making of a country.
    .
    “And much as I hate to say it, Dubya did cash in big when he sold his share of the Texas Rangers. You can argue that his old man and friends set it up, but you can’t deny that in strictly monetary terms he was a major success in that instance.”
    .
    Yes, this is true. But, as we would agree, after more chances than you, I, or anybody but the very, very wealthiest and well connected will ever have.
    .
    I think it is safe to say that you and everybody else posting here did not have a fourth chance to own a large business. Most of us did have an offer to take over even a mid sized business.
    .
    The general point, though, McCain knew the US Senate from experience far more than Obama. Outside of that, Obama was more qualified than McCain and far more qualified than GWB. Obviously, what could have and is intended to compensate for that would have been to have a long time Senator as Obama’s VP.

  • newfreedomblog

    Imagine a great story of a political battle, and a reporter on journolist decided not to print it because he or she thought that would harm this candidate in some way so far as public opinion was concerned.
    .
    Yes this is exactly what the liberal journalists as represented here by Joe Klein and Michael Scherer did during the 2008 election.
    .
    Joe Klein can say all he wants, but we all know it is wrong to the core of all things honorable, things with integrity, and simply the truth.
    .
    Telling one-half of a lie is still a lie. Telling part of the truth, is indicative of a devious individual. All of these things have been discovered with the journolist emails. A disgusting revelation. It simply shows America that people like Joe Klein should never again be allowed to call themselves a journalist or a reporter.
    .
    Today we see the likes of Joe Klein who have always touted themselves as a “Journalist” or a “Reporter”. Now they have crept into our lives slowly but surely but they have changed their moniker. Now Joe Klein claims to be an Opinion Writer. Opinion my A$$.
    .
    You cannot one day claim to be a reporter, and the next day lay claim to being an opinion writer. Pick one Joe Klein, and start telling the truth for once in your sorry miserable life.

  • billsanford

    Of course Joe Klein would have no apologies about being part of journolist; true progressive Socialists NEVER apologize…

    Joe Klein is tainted goods – he has been in MSM undercover liberal for years; Joe Klein has no value to any reader… other than perhaps on the Huffington Post or MoveOn.org.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Rusty,
    .
    You are the king of insults.
    .
    I have not seen one liberal or moderate you have not called names.
    .
    The fact that I got really crude insulting you seems to be the one and only reason you have thrown fewer insults at me for the moment.
    .
    You, like many here – and unlike reasonable conservatives – mistake disagreeing with your ideas and/or laughing at some of both the gaffs and/or ideas of people you support as an insult to your person, your personal friends or relatives and attack the person you disagree with.
    .
    I have not yet seen one liberal or moderate throw the first proverbial (metaphorical) punch at you as you have always attacked first and attacked hard (verbally and a metaphorical punch).
    .
    As for the end results of conservative policies, even, in some cases (and I do not count you among them) done by otherwise very kind and fair individuals not wishing for this result is exactly what Kevin said.
    .
    Add that to you, Freeinpa, Earl and 3X launching personal attacks and it is hard to consider your specific extra right wing branch of the Republican Party to be anything other than highly immoral, incessantly selfish and incredibly combative people, aka a-holes.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Someone who comes onto this site to only disparage someone who holds views different than yours.”
    .
    Look at how I attacked Sasquach08, Exiled at home, xxception (he hasn’t been around for awhile) and when Stuart and I took different sides three times – oh boy.
    .
    Note: Sarcasm.
    .
    You, Freeinpa, 3X and Earl launched attacks on both me and others. Then you got insulted back.
    .
    I’ve disagreed with all of those people and made remarks about their ideas (including Stuart’s anti-gun control) which may be deemed sarcastic or humorous, but, I have not attacked Sasquach08s, Exiled or xxception’s person.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    If you are going into Jeremiah Wright again, do not forget that there was massive coverage of this on all of the networks and, McCain’s minister, John Hagee, was not covered at all.
    .
    Hagee was very vehemently anti-Catholic among other things.
    .
    For Write and Hagee, both prone to saying very outrageous things neither one reflected the view of the candidate.
    .
    I have no reason to believe that there is a story in 2008 which could have cost Obama the election which Klein did not run.
    .
    If you have an allegation, please be extremely specific.
    .
    Who, what, where, when, why and how.
    .
    If you just want to say that if there were a story they would sit on it, then you are just insulting Klein based upon your own imagination. It would be as bad as if I said that I can imagine you beating your wife and, therefore, say that, when you can you will beat your wife. I have no idea who your wife is or how you treat her. Unless you can name something specific, you are doing nothing more than if I called you a wife beater.

  • http://bradlofrudd.wordpress.com bradlofrudd

    Do you see this? This is exactly the type of arrogance that we are talking about. These “journalists” (lightly) don’t even see themselves clearly and how deeply their bias runs. Supposedly Palin had less expeirience as the nation’s most popular governor than did Obama who never ran anything in his entire life. Palin shopped at bargain stores. THAT is a real problem for these media elites. The day someone rises to prominence in the political arena who sees things the way normal people do, they are a threat and an offense to the agenda driven false journalists who try to brainwash us with their mental bullying.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Obama:
    .
    Columbia University.
    .
    Palin:
    .
    After a couple of other schools graduated from the University of Idaho.
    .
    Obama:
    .
    Harvard Law School President of the Law review.
    .
    Palin:
    .
    No graduate school.
    .
    Obama:
    .
    Turned down higher pay to work with the poor for a non-profit learning public service.
    .
    Palin:
    .
    Sports reporter for local TV station and helped her husband in commercial fishing business.
    .
    Obama:
    .
    Successful law practice. Taught constitutional law and got elected to the state senate.
    .
    Palin:
    .
    Became mayor of a small city.
    .
    Obama:
    .
    Became Senator in one of the most populated States.
    .
    Palin:
    .
    Became governor of least populated state.
    .
    There are many reasons to say that Obama is far more qualified than Palin.
    .
    Reality has a liberal bias.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Rusty,
    .
    Quick check:
    .
    Look above at what I called JBaustian after he made an unfounded statement.
    .
    I called him “J”. That’s because I didn’t want to misspell his last name.

  • lwelsh
  • mitch27

    Hey, Joe, has your sales department told you you only have 11 readers left??? Friggin’ loon.

  • mitch27

    Hey patricksartor… you forgot one.
    Obama…black
    Palin… white
    We’re done. The feel-good historical moment was an epic failure.

  • midlojoe

    Patricksartor…

    as true swing voter who voted for Obama– because Palin IS a Dingbat… your comments about McCain being ” just beaten by some Vietnamese people…” is such a god dam low blow that I am filled with a over powerng sense of rage…

    Dude I if I could I would spit in your face and back up my car over your dog.

    I LOATHE the far right.

    The reason WHY is that the far right will stoop to ANY measure will say anything half truth . They are anti science and religious kooks.

    YOU as an intelliigent semi rational Liberal are not suppose to do what the far right does.

    But you do…all the time. Perhaps you think you re the next keith Olberman?

    and while we are at it… . spare me the Hagee vs Wright crap. McCain didnt attend his church for 20 years. It is not even close to the same thing.

    Midlojoe

  • dalewar

    Obama:
    .
    Columbia University.

    Barry Obama – affirmative action

  • karlmarxism

    “Time’s Joe Klein admitted to his fellow Journolisters that he’d collected the listserv’s bric-a-brac and fashioned it into a brickbat aimed at Palin.”

    From one fellow communist to another, my suggestion to comrad Joe–be free and strong now that your inner-self has made itself known to the rest of the world. Of course you wanted to nail Sarah, don’t feel bad or embarrassed but embrace your passion.

    Be all you can be, and don’t hide behind smoke and mirrors–this will only make you a pansy.

  • yaacovdeyo

    It appears to me the attributes of a group reveal the reason why a person joins and actively participates in it. Now while it sounds peachy that professional edification, collegiality, and the chance to gain perspective on one’s ideas are offered by Mr. Klein, I think these reasons are a mask.

    Let’s face it. The group was not at all publicized. It’s members were clearly from a partisan selection of the political spectrum. Invitation was not open or offered to any journalist. It contained clearly partisan group messaging and strategy, and most significantly, it was shut down by its founder when its existence became revealed to the public!

    These attributes do not match with Mr. Klein’s defense of his membership at all, and the proof is in his response.

    A person cherishing perspective on their views would have seen this article as a chance for honesty and self-criticism as in “Wow, maybe I am in a fishbowl? If I was, how would I know?” Indeed, this is how he would have responded if his defense was true.

    Unfortunately, his real ethos, counter to his defense, is one of insularity and partisanship. This is why he defended his participation pridefully and without a word of self-doubt. Gosh, what a piece of work is he!

    Transparency, inclusion, objectivity are not the attributes he is seeking as a journalist.

    What is encouraging is that some day, one day people will view journalists who act like this the same way we today view people who chain smoke unfiltered cigarettes, drive without seat-belts, and put “whites only” signs on water fountains. They had masking reasons for their actions too, you know!

  • 3xfire3
  • oparoberts

    “Journalists are an oxymoronic tribe of fierce SHAMELESS individualists”……..you omitted an important word.

  • freedomfan

    “During 40 years as a journalist…”- Joe

    Joe, congratulations on being chosen runner-up in Breitbart’s “Top 10 Most Biased Journalist” competition.

    True Helen Thomas beat you out, but you’re number one now that she has retired.

  • 3xfire3

    Sarah Palin strikes back at Journolist’s ’sick puppies’

    http://dailycaller.com/2010/07/22/sarah-palin-strikes-back-at-journolists-sick-puppies/

  • http://davetomphl.wordpress.com/ davetomphl

    Klein says: These conversations were private, as most good ones are …”

    Smell the coffee Joe. Anything that goes onto a server anyplace is not private. An eighth grader knows that.

  • freedomfan

    The Journalist’s Creed – A Code of Ethics
    ——————————————————–
    I believe in the profession of Journalism.

    I believe that the public journal is a public trust; that all connected with it are, to the full measure of responsibility, trustees for the public; that acceptance of lesser service than the public service is a betrayal of this trust.

    I believe that clear thinking, clear statement, accuracy and fairness are fundamental to good journalism.

    I believe that a journalist should write only what he holds in his heart to be true.

    I believe that suppression of the news, for any consideration other than the welfare of society, is indefensible.

    I believe that no one should write as a journalist what he would not say as a gentleman; that bribery by one’s own pocket book is as much to be avoided as bribery by the pocketbook of another; that individual responsibility may not be escaped by pleading another’s instructions or another’s dividends.

    I believe that advertising, news and editorial columns should alike serve the best interests of readers; that a single standard of helpful truth and cleanness should prevail for all; that supreme test of good journalism is the measure of its public service.

    I believe that the journalism which succeeds the best-and best deserves success-fears God and honors man; is stoutly independent; unmoved by pride of opinion or greed of power; constructive, tolerant but never careless, self-controlled, patient, always respectful of its readers but always unafraid, is quickly indignant at injustice; is unswayed by the appeal of the privilege or the clamor of the mob; seeks to give every man a chance, and as far as law, an honest wage and recognition of human brotherhood can make it so, an equal chance; is profoundly patriotic while sincerely promoting international good will and cementing world-comradeship, is a journalism of humanity, of and for today’s world.
    =============================

    The Journolist’s Creed – Joe Klein’s Code of Ethics?
    ——————————————————————-
    I believe that random Conservatives and the entire Tea Party movement should be branded as “racists” for the public good.

    I believe that Rush Limbaugh should die a painful death, unassisted by me.

    I believe that Sarah Palin must be slimed for giving birth to a Down’s syndrome baby, in order to elect Barack Obama. I believe her selection on the basis of her gender hurts women.

    I believe that the public is best served by suppressing the Jeremiah Wright story and other stories which cast Barack Obama in an unfavorable light.

    I believe that Fox News, Limbaugh and Breitbart.com should by silenced by government officials under the pretense of the “Fairness” doctrine. I believe in the public funding of “journalism” in order to provide the public with fair and balanced analysis.

    I believe that anyone who questions the policies of the almighty Barack Obama is guilty of “racism” and “sedition”, a crime punishable by imprisonment or fine.

  • 3xfire3

    “In other words; he had the video – he doctored it. He. End of story. It wasn’t even the assumption of sloppy research from someone like Dan Rather (which seems to be the excuse) – he had the video and doctored it.”
    .
    What Dan Rather did was much worse then what Breitbart did.
    .
    Dan Rather was a Prime Time Major News Reporter respected by the public for honest reporting.
    .
    Because of his political views he tried to influence the Presidential Elections hoping to sway the public to vote for his chosen candidate. His passion was so strong that he was willing to make his report without real proof. He deserved to be fired for his actions.
    .
    Now we have hundreds of Left Wing reporters and media people doing the same thing as Rather and you only want to talk about Breitbart? Breitbart was wrong in what he did, but he was small potatoes compared to the sick people on JournoList.

  • qualsol

    Joe, you are a disgrace to journalism. You are nothing more than a partisan hack…you and all of the others that have foresaken real reporting, investigating and holding our officials accountable. A tragedy…you are good with words – but lack all credibility. Just like Time magazine – your best years are behind you.

  • inotropic

    Man, if I had a nickel every time a liberal told me I didn’t get irony…

  • fandaelis

    Interesting bias assertion by Joe Klein making an excuse for his e-mail by saying it was a personal opinion about the lack of qualification of Palin for Vice-Presient. How about the lack of qualification of Obama for President? And all of us are paying the price for having a liberal/progessive/socialist running the country into bankrupcy. So, spare your self-righteous indignation and all the crap about how wonderful this Journolist was. It is people portraying themselves as journalist and becoming nothing more than a partisan hecks. That is what he is.

  • fandaelis

    Nobody is saying there is anything wrong about belonging to Journolist. What we are pointing out is that journalists should not coordinate attacks on the behalf of a party and against another as if they are partisan hecks. That is what is wrong. They coordinated actions pro-Obama. Journalits do have every right to express their opinions. But as journalists they should not behave as partisan politicians, in other words, they should not campaign for someone or campaign against someone else. Klein claims his e-mail was about the lack of qualifications of Palin, how about the lack of qualifications of Obama for President? He was elected and we all are paying the price for the damage he is inflicting on the country

  • carbonpawprint

    Questioning some of patricksartor’s amusing musings on this thread:

    ps@Obama:
    Succeeded in being the president of the Harvard Law Review arguably making him one of the best two or three law students in America that year.
    ———-
    *BUT, he is probably the only law review editor at a major law school who never published anything. In fact, he never completed a single work of legal scholarship.

    ps@”Obama: Immediately went on to public service”
    ————-
    YOU MEAN he became a community organizer (professional agitator) after graduating from Columbia, and he worked with ACORN

    ps@Obama: Became law professor at Ivy League level UC while becoming a state senator.
    ————–
    BUT, UC is not an Ivy League college. And Obama was “Senior Lecturer” … not a tenured professor. BTW, he went on to chair the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, compliments of Bill Ayers, where Obama made foundation “gifts” to political allies.

    ..
    ps@Obama: Got elected to the US Senate for part of a term.
    —————————
    For all the good that did. He missed nearly 80 percent of all votes from Sept. ’07. In fact, Obama missed the most votes of any Democratic presidential candidate in the Senate.

    Obama routinely avoided voting on any issue that was not helpful to Muslim goals. For example, Obama missed a vote on a resolution that declared the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, an elite part of the Iranian military, a terrorist organization.

    As a state senator, he voted “present” 107 times to avoid controversial votes. BUT, he said he pressed the wrong button.

    ps@Obama being a self-made man.
    ——————-
    Dude. That’s just laughable.

  • fandaelis

    And by the way, for those attacking Tucker Carlson, if there was a misquoting of anyone Klein would have to point that out. He didn’t. Why? Because what is being quoted is what is on the e-mails. How can someone question his/her own words on an e-mail?

  • fandaelis

    Your comment is quite revealing. It reveals an extreme leftwing/liberal/progressive/socialist individual. Paul Gigot is one the mildest individual I have ever heard and seen around. Your opinion shows how hard left you are!!!

  • fandaelis

    And you do not have anything against journalists plotting to call individual racists in order to promote a candidate? You are quite picky to decide what is wrong and is not!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    All the time?
    .
    Hey, I did take it back about McCain and site his bravery.
    .
    The follow up, though, is I do see it as less related to serving in office than much of Obama’s experience in a slightly younger age group.

  • fandaelis

    Kewalo, tell me what you think of journalists plotting in favor of a candidate to deflect bad news by calling individuals racists????

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Do you have any reason to believe that affirmative action is what made the difference for Obama attending Columbia, or is this just your own allegation.
    .
    There is no affirmative action for being on a law school’s law review much less being the president of it.
    .
    It is 100% academic only.
    .
    So, with that, unless he was a little bit of a slacker in high school, he was far beyond the need for affirmative action to serve as a tie breaker.

  • fandaelis

    Yes, Alex Vallas, have you watched Maddow, Olbermann, Matthews and others? They twist facts when making questions trying to trap someone.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Briebart?
    .
    Briebart!
    .
    LOL.
    .
    If it was George Will or somebody,he might have a very good reason t feel bad.

  • jpmercurio

    With all due and sincere respect, Mr. Klein, this is an important issue and not something we should quickly brush aside as a regrettable nuisance.

    As citizens, we hold public officials to a higher standard. So, for example, we ask judges to recuse themselves from cases where they have a personal interest and we are troubled when they do not or cannot. We have to look no further than Bush v Gore and the calls for Bush Sr. appointees to have recused themselves from weighing in on the matter. That case more than any other has tarnished the veil of imparitiality that we expect our highest court to have. In the interest of fairness, Clinton appointees also should have stepped aside. Also, we should ask those who wanted to retire in the next term under an ideologically favorable administration. At that point, we probably would have lacked a substantial enough court to decide the matter satisfactorily. Many people have swallowed their frustration over that event but have always been uncomfortable with the apparent bias from the bench.

    It’s a strange paradox that most people seem reasonable as individuals but unreasonable when put into the context of a group. Rehnquist’s concurrence was persuasive. So also was Ginsburg’s. Context casts a negative light on both of them.

    And so we come to this matter of Journolist and the reputation of respectable and admirable journalists, many of whom clearly have a horse in the race in the matters about which they report. Have you not read the Mismeasure of Man where scientists screw up objective data in the direction of their bias? Can we be asked to believe that journalists are either less fallable or their bias less consequential?

    Color me unsurprised when one set of journalists comes to the defense of another set of journalists. It seems like the same circling of the wagons we see when a Democrat or Republican official behaves badly. I’m not a journalist, so maybe I don’t understand what goes on behind the printing presses. Neither am I a police officer but I can still be disgusted by the knee jerk defense by cops for one another.

    While journalists and op-ed writers are not public officials, you perform a vital public role and that entails similar public scrutiny. If a restaurant chain takes longer to seat black people, should we dismiss it as a statistical fluke? Would we tolerate favoritism from, say, Sempra energy to guarantee fewer brownouts in Republican districts? Are campaign contributions by BP relevant? How about from Chinese business leaders? These actions can affect us. So can news papers.

    About Tucker Carlson and Daily Call, I’m ambivalent. But as a news consumer, I’m inclined to say a pox on all of you. Hold yourselves to higher standards and then maybe I’ll be inclined to believe you when you hold the targets of your criticism to a higher standard. Until then, and until we the readers can _know_ it, the difference between Time Magazine and Fox News is a matter of degree and not of kind.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Compare Rather to Fox News since Rather did not invent the source.
    .
    Rather did not check the source and Fox News did nto check the source.
    .
    Briebart invented the news himself by his editing.
    .
    Rather, like Fox reporting on Briebart, failed to question his sources.
    .
    The difference is obvious.

  • fandaelis

    Amen, rdw56, what Klein said about Palin it applied even more to Obama. The lack of qualifications to be President. And the horror of it is that we are all paying the price for Obama’s left wing policies. And the amazing thing is that Klein speaks with a self-righteousness that is laughable.

  • fandaelis

    Paul Dirks, where can I learn such art in convincing people? Did you learn that with a course on “How to Win Friends and Influence People?” I have to admire that. I will be looking to learn from you! :) :)

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “In fact, he never completed a single work of legal scholarship.”
    .
    What is your source of information?
    .
    “YOU MEAN he became a community organizer (professional agitator) after graduating from Columbia, and he worked with ACORN.”
    .
    You may not like ACORN, but, during his time MLK was called “a professional agitator” too. He had the option of top level law firms and chose this instead.
    .
    “..at Ivy League level UC while becoming a state senator.
    ————–
    BUT, UC is not an Ivy League college…” you have not contradicted me. No debate here other than to say that UC is sometimes, depending upon the student, chosen above some of the Ivy League schools. UC has far more science, for example. But, it does not belong to the same sports league. (All Ivy league means is a sports league.)
    .
    “and Obama was “Senior Lecturer” … not a tenured professor
    .
    “From 1992 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004, Barack Obama served as a professor in the Law School. He was a Lecturer from 1992 to 1996. He was a Senior Lecturer from 1996 to 2004, during which time he taught three courses per year. Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors, although not full-time or tenure-track. The title of Senior Lecturer is distinct from the title of Lecturer, which signifies adjunct status. Like Obama, each of the Law School’s Senior Lecturers has high-demand careers in politics or public service, which prevent full-time teaching. Several times during his 12 years as a professor in the Law School, Obama was invited to join the faculty in a full-time tenure-track position, but he declined.”
    .
    http://www.law.uchicago.edu/media
    .
    “ps@Obama being a self-made man.
    ——————-
    Dude. That’s just laughable.”
    .
    So, if he is not self made, who brought him everything, his father who died when he was young or his single parent mother?
    .
    I am contrasting him to Bush, not Palin.
    .
    Indeed, she got what she got, also, from a middle class background.
    .
    She has less.

  • excanucktoo

    I don’t believe it was conservatives who : unsealed messy divorce records of a sitting Congressman to use private info. to win an election (vs. Cong. Ryan, R, Illinois ) OR publicly released occupational license and state tax info. to embarrass an innocent civilian ( non-politician ) like Joe the Plumber, whose only transgression at the time was questioning The One.

    Three observations : 1) If Palin was so unqualified for Veep, where was the due diligence on Obama’s qualifications? ( LESS executive exp. than Palin, even)
    2) If Joe Klein, who surrendered all journalistic credibility in early 90′s & revealed himself as a Dem. whore, was the most CENTER-oriented member of Journalist, how leftist WAS the group ?
    3) If criticism of Obama MUST be racist, does it follow all critics of Palin are sexists ?

  • usagirl909

    Why am I not surprised, Mr. Klein, that you were a member of Journolist Club of the Progressive Elites !!

    I am sure if NOT EXPOSED, you would not be defending yourself here in this self-serving BS piece which you have become famous for.

    We all belong to professional associations Mr. Klein so don’t give me this crap that “Jurnolist” was just another “professional association”. Professional associations are governed by ETHICS & INTEGRETIY and from what I have learned about YOUR COZY LITTLE GROUP ………YOU HAD NONE of either !!

    If you should disagree with my opinion, then I challenge you and YOUR COZY LITTLE GROUP to release all the archives, immediately !!!! Awwwwhhhhhh, would that be a problem for you ????? Yeah, I bet !!!!!!

    Mr. Klein, you should be FIRED IMMEDIATLEY !! But, then again Time is a progressive “RAG” that no one subscribes to anymore because of it’s PROGRESSIVE AGENDA – so who cares !!

    The American people are slowly learning ….why some stories are never reported on by the MSM ….with all these “leaks” …..it’s not a “Journolist” secret any more.

    Congratulations, Mr. Klein !!

    Consider yourself one of the “Great Journolist” who has made “JOURNALIST” A DIRTY PROFESSION !!

    I guess we will catch up again on another …………leak !!

  • fandaelis

    Cliff, I couldn´t agree more! He is a self-righteous individual!!!

  • fandaelis

    For this guy Patrick academics is what qualifies one to be President! Well, well … that is interesting …

  • http://washingtonreporter.wordpress.com washingtonreporter

    The exposure of the Journolist has simply confirmed what most suspected for a long time.

    The names that were shown on the Journolist should no longer be taken serious as journalists.

    Their organizations should also be viewed as lacking credibility.

    Joe K, Ezra K, Dave Weigel et al, should be viewed by employers as last resorts.

    Real news organizations will dispatch them to the unemployment lines if they wish to redeem themselves.
    Anything less will be viewed as a wink and a nod to pseudo-journalism.

    At least these “jounalists” were exposed before the public relied on them for information on the upcoming midterms.

  • fandaelis

    Midlojoe, what you stated about conservatives apply greatly to liberal/progressives/socialists. They use half-truth all the time to make their point.
    And by your statement you clearly show bias against those Christians who do believe!!!!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Academics are one of many qualifications which make a person a better president.
    .
    Working for a top notch law firm when you are going to propose laws to be written and being a teacher of constitutional law both are better than announcing sports, too.
    .
    Winning a Senate Seat in a state of 12,910,409 is somewhat superior to winning a governorship in a state of 698,473 as well.
    .
    There are many differences beyond the fact that they are on opposite sides of isle.

  • fandaelis

    carbonpawprint, great posting! This patricksartor is a joke! Thanks for exposing his extreme bias position!

  • dclayton4473

    Oh the irony… We live in a culture where rights advance faster than responsibility – so we demand privacy so no one can see if what we do matches what we say…. Then technology makes what we say in all environments readily available…

    I’m conservative and see the finger pointing as silly, however I take negative comments seriously reguardless of the format. they speek to our character. We live in a new age where we will have to assume the world is watching when we type anything anywhere or say anything publically…How ironic that the responsibility is being forced by technology modernization.

  • http://trublutopaz.wordpress.com trublutopaz

    It’s interesting how much the Journalism community is up in arms over emails being published. Where were they when leftist operatives were hacking into Bristol Palin’s email account with the intent of smearing Sarah Palin? I have to say, I am a conservative, but not a big proponent of Palin as candidate, but nevertheless, the evidence demonstrates a coordination of talking points on behalf of the Obama Campaign. We would see almost identical stories and on various blogs we would see posts espousing the same wording. At some point, like it or not, there was collusion. And that’s a problem because there is a difference between reporting a news story and writing an editorial. It appears that much of the 2008 election season was filled with hopey-changey stories and the press chose to ignore some very serious problems related to the Obama campaign. Clinton campaign staff tried to alert the media, but they chose to ignore it. That’s why the recent release of “We Will Not Be Silenced” explains the breaking of trust between the media and the people.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “They use half-truth all the time to make their point.”
    .
    Is there something about being conservative that forbids you from giving examples of terrible accusations?
    .
    Please do tell us about when liberals use “half truths”?
    .
    What I found very disturbing was, when private insurance companies had the right to refuse life saving care at their own discretion in most policies, which fit almost the exact definition of a “death panel” which HCR bans, Sarah Palin said the opposite, that there would be such a board put in.
    .
    Furthermore, there was the story of 16,500 ARMED IRS agents Sarah Palin said was going to come out and beat up, arrest or shoot people who didn’t get health care (or something dastardly).
    .
    Both were 0% true and the first was that the private insurance companies already have, if you will, “death panels” which HCR was aiming to get rid of.
    .
    In reality, although it is not as good as most people wanted, millions of people now have health care who didn’t before. To lie to prevent something so good is very evil.
    .
    No, absolutely not perfect, but good and an improvement over the pre-HCR.
    .
    Now, find some examples of the center/left/social democrats saying such things.
    .
    (Please do not use the former Soviet Union as the Far Left since I am not using Hitler on the far right and neither one are either from this century nor American).

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “! Thanks for exposing his extreme bias position!”
    .
    Do you have any facts, or do you just shout out accusations without any proof at all?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Mitch,
    .
    The feel good part for me was not that Obama is half Kenyan.
    .
    The feel good part about it for me is that we had Democrats in control of both houses and the white house for the first time since 1994 and for the second time since 1980.
    .
    I still feel better about that than about what the Republicans were up to from 2001 through 2007.

  • potvin99

    Joe has no regrets? Of course he doesn’t, because he’s a fatuous piece of fecal matter.

  • dartagnansblade

    Don’t you just love the steady stream of excuses?

    WWWWWe didn’t do anything wrong….

    The fact remains… these guys let it be known that Wright was to be ignored and he was…. end of story. No other politician in history could have withstood the onslaught that should have happened with that bombshell…not one.

    And Klein knows it.

    PS… Could you post the link to Time’s investigative piece on Wright, Ayres, Rescoe and the rest of Obama’s …..”acquaintances”?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    fandaelis, so far academics, non government experience and winning elections and serving a far, far larger and more diverse constituency has not impressed you in terms of qualifications.
    .
    What does impress you?
    .
    No, besides that Sarah Palin was a beauty queen and Obama is a man.
    .
    What is it that makes a president to you if not knowledge and serving in previous offices?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Paul Dirks, where can I learn such art in convincing people? Did you learn that with a course on “How to Win Friends and Influence People?”
    .

    .
    “I learned it by watching you!”
    .
    That was a punchline for years. With ads like that, so unconvincing, it’s some wonder that I never did even try weed.
    .
    I will not speak for Paul, but, I will tell you that I was far more polite months ago before dealing with you wingnuts.

  • pugzlie

    Joe.

    Stop. Just Stop!

    You had me at:

    ‘Journalists are an oxymoronic tribe of fierce individualists.’

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    swissArmyBran is one of the more conservative people here.
    .
    It just goes to show how far to the right you are, fan.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “If criticism of Obama MUST be racist, does it follow all critics of Palin are sexists ?”
    .
    No, only right wingers with holding stuffed monkeys with the name “Obama” on it and other extremely obvious racist things are called racist.
    .
    For those who oppose ending Bush’s tax cuts for the very wealthiest and yet do not want to run a deficit during wartime are just very impractical people who may not be ready to sit down and do some simple, second grade addition and subtraction problems, for example.

  • 3xfire3

    yaacovdeyo,
    .
    Excellent Post
    .
    Hopefully truth will win out in the long run.
    .

  • tonka2lips

    I’d like to suggest a couple of minor changes to your introductory sentence.

    Replace:

    Journalists are an oxymoronic tribe of fierce individualists.

    With:

    Journalists are a moronic tribe of sycophantic suck-ups.

    There. That’s better. And more truthful. Oh, and it doesn’t contain the mind-bendingly stupid combination of “tribe” and “individualists” right next to one another.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “They twist facts when making questions trying to trap someone.”
    .
    If you pay attention, they ask Democrats the same questions as they ask Republicans.

  • realworldresident

    I always love these right wing phony crybabies complaining about media conglomerates controlled by republicans having a liberal bias. Plenty of those types here today. What is it with these people who think the grisly grizzly is qualified for anything above emptying the wastebaskets in the Whitehouse. Do they hold their ears when this dolt is regurgitating series of non-related words and sometimes words that don’t exist and passing them off as cognitive thought.

  • seekingrationalthought

    Mr. Klein,

    You have missed the point of this scandal. The scandal doesn’t rest on the existence of the list, or on who participated in it. It rests on the substance of what these adolescents actually said and did. They not only showed showed a willingness to lie and commit slander, they showed that their goal was to mislead their readers into agreeing with them and to vote based upon that agreement. The showed that they were willing to engage in fraud to get their way. They showed that they were willing to manipulate and mislead me. When people with real jobs do this, they go to jail. See Madoff. Perhaps that is why I’ve found more honor and honesty in the business world than in my newspaper.

    Of course you have a right to participate in such a list. Of course your have the right to your opinions and the right and duty to try to convince your readers to agree with you. What you don’t have is the right to lie, mislead, slander and manipulate your readers in order to push your personal political agenda. While I haven’t seen any quotes from the list where you engage in dishonorable, corrupt and dishonest statements, this is not true of other participants.

  • healthcareguy

    Hi Joe “Ezra Kline who knows, a hell of a lot about health care”
    I am a healthcare policy analyst. I have an undergraduate degree in quantitative business analysis and a masters in health policy. I think I know a lot about healthcare.
    I can assure you that what ezra klien knows about healthcare started with a view of healthcare that he is comfortable with and when he found folks who supported his vision he incorporated those ideas into his viewpoint.
    I think he is well versed and probably knows a lot more about healthcare than a typical journalist but he did not evaluate the healthcare bill in any way that I would consider objective.
    It was clear that he was using his column to lobby the bill. I don’t think that is a proper role for a journalist.
    Thats just me however.

  • realworldresident

    I am a healthcare policy analyst. I have an undergraduate degree in quantitative business analysis and a masters in health policy. I think I know a lot about healthcare.

    Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/07/22/on-journolist/comment-page-2/#comment-184422#ixzz0uXrV28ND

    Perhaps you know then that US citizens are ripped off to the tune of 2 to 3 time what people pay annually for healthcare in other industrialized nations. In many instances with inferior results. Perhaps tort reform will bring the US into alignment with those other countries. I hear doctors in those countries can commit serious medical malpractice with no repercussions.

    Ezra klein was at least doing something to try to stop this massive ripoff.

  • freedomfan

    “Ezra klein was at least doing something”

    If you like visting the Post Office and the DMV, you will luv the waiting rooms under ObamaCare. Bring something to read … like “War and Peace”.

    Nothing is so expensive as “free” health care. France pays about 18% of disposable income.

    As for quality, no one beats the U.S. for wonder drug development and survivability rates for cancer most other major diseases. ObamaCare will “fix” that though, I’m pretty sure.

  • realworldresident

    Bring out some more simplistic boogeymen and right wing wives tales to defend the systematic ripoff of the US healthcare industry. I hear canadians all go to minnesota to see a doctor.

  • healthcareguy

    Ezra klein was at least doing something to try to stop this massive ripoff.

    Maybe the next time you need directions to the airport ask Ezra Kline. When you find yourself in the middle of nowhere you can console yourself that it least he was trying to do something.

  • k9af

    In my 44 years as a journalist, I too, had many conversations with my fellow journalists, as well as others, including presidential candidates. The highest compliment I ever received came from a United States Senator, who remarked that ‘he couldn’t tell where I stood politically.” I find it interesting that Mr. Klein found it necessary to include in this editorial that ‘writing about Palin wasn’t hard work…” IF a journalist does his job correctly, writing about ANYONE ISN’T hard work. What IS hard is keeping objectivity, especialy in the face of pressure from ratings, or from peers.

  • 3xfire3

    “The End Justifies The Means”
    .
    Your Mom and Dad would be so proud that their son turned out to be a Marxist.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Your Mom and Dad would be so proud that their son turned out to be a Marxist.”
    .
    I am sure your Democratic (according to you) parents felt the same way when you joined the Nazi Party.
    .
    (Why not?)
    .
    The ends of lying about “death panels”, 16,500 armed IRS agents, lying that the cost to individuals would, in the long run, go up instead of down all to save that only the master race could get hold of health care was worth it the Aryan cause of the ends justifying the means.
    .
    Right?
    .
    I mean, all these guys did was exchange ideas on opinion pieces while telling the truth.
    .
    So, if that is Marxist, then, I am sure you enjoy being called a good Nazi.

  • crava

    You can always be counted on for: a) trumpeting your personal virtues (the lines about your Christian studies are classic); b) your oily self-regard; c) consistent application of a writing style that has become the essence of self-parody. I’m sure you have “no regrets”. Why would you? You’re The Top. My favorite line in the piece: “I’ve also been part of other regular conversations, all of which I’ve enjoyed and learned from; none of which were in the slightest bit insidious.” JournoList is very, very creepy and I’m happy the emails were published. You can say anything you want about what a great guy you are (and will). The emails show that you’re a pompous creep with hatred in his heart.

  • crava

    “BrickBatboy”. That’s what we’ll call you.

  • 3xfire3

    JournoList Rises From the Ashes
    .
    According to Jeffrey Goldberg of “The Atlantic” a new smaller Journolist has already been born with a smaller 173 members under the name “Cabalist”. It is made up of the core members from Journolist.
    .
    Joe and Michael have you joined this new group yet?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    So Journalists talk to Journalists.
    .
    Cops talk to other cops. Does that mean that cops, primarily Republican, are discussing how to do their better or if they are conspiring to send more Democrats to jail. (I think they are discussing how to do their job better.)
    .
    Doctors have conferences.
    .
    Business leaders have conferences. Does that mean you are conspiring in monopolies to slash wages, break unions and screw consumers? No.
    .
    Why are you so fascinated by this 3X?
    .
    At the Rotary Club did you conspire against Democrats, consumers and labor leaders?
    .
    No?
    .
    Then why do you smell conspiracy when it is not there?

  • http://balou8900.wordpress.com balou8900

    Your pardoning of yourselves for the postings on your List Serve are as pompous as what many of us see your profession has become. Do you simply expect everyone to overlook the fact that what was being discussed in this List Serve was professional topics, not personal trips to a local fishing hole? If you are going to discuss the biz, you better have your professional biz big boy pants on when called on the carpet for what is inappropriate and appropriate. Inappropriate, professionally speaking, would be showing that you’ve compromised your professional actions to be led entirely by your personal views. Objectivity no longer can be expected.

    Yet you persist at implying these were just “regular conversations.” And believe they should be “private” conversations. Most regular people don’t talk shop or seek out a place to talk shop for a regular conversation. And, if they do, they conduct it in a professional rather than personal fashion.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Most regular people don’t talk shop or seek out a place to talk shop for a regular conversation. And, if they do, they conduct it in a professional rather than personal fashion.”
    .
    Please give examples when people talk shop in public.
    .
    Police often talk shop at the police station, at bars dominated by off duty police and in social events with one another.
    .
    Commercial real estate agents talk shop at open houses of new office space where we get free drinks, snacks and, sometimes a full buffet.
    .
    My late father was an Naval Architect/ Marine Engineer (civilian ships, not military despite the job title) and met in a group named SNAME.
    .
    My mother, a chemist, met with people in the American Chemical Society…
    .
    Other than the fact that there are no free drinks or mini hot dogs what’s the difference between those places and being at home and being a part of journolists?

  • subframer

    joe, i could give a rat’s rear what you think you know, or what you think ezra klein knows. in the end, you’re both smarmy, self-impressed hot air balloons. your supposed expertise is akin to krugman’s supposed expertise in economics; i don’t care how many degrees you have. if your discourse doesn’t pass the common sense test, you can blow it out your backside. you and your smarmy ilk have been caught in a private moment, being the partisan, elitist hacks that you are. the public, the people you disdain and purport to be so much smarter than, we won’t soon let you forget your transgression. jerk…..

  • kwp10021

    Joe,

    Oh I get it. Journolist didn’t effect your immense, impenetrable integrity. You were an active part of it (sometimes actively disagreeing with your cohorts – oh my!), but that doesn’t matter in YOUR case.

    You are a hypocrite, Your participation was wrong. Not calling it out saying it was wrong. Journolist proves your and other liberal’s bias. Your seeing and tacitly condoning coordination of activity and political strategies (such as targeting conservatives as racist to support Obama’s programs) makes you complicit.

    The lesson: you and other “journalists” can do what you want. There are no real standards of conduct. You are no better than anyone who participated, Joe. Just more arrogant.

  • tellumtime

    great excuse you make for discussing how to get your candidate elected and how to get the heat off him.
    whenever you appear on TV the venom against the GOP is running down the side of your mouth. could never understand how a supposedly straight journalist could get away with it. one just has to read your columns to know your political point of view. now that you have sunk to a new low as true journalists use to be, why don’t you just go work for the Democratic Party full time?
    you have been in the business too long and you forgot to understand the true ethics of journalism. there are many reasons Time Magazine is doing so poorly, but it’s your writings that drive it even lower in the ground.
    to read your excuse for being glad you were part of turning an election for President of the U.S. makes me want to puke.

  • nouseforliberals

    Joe–the fact that you don’t see anything wrong with a list of so-called journalists conspiring to smear their more conservative peers shows how dumb and unprofessional you and your buddies are. It’s no wonder that the press is held in lower esteem than garbage men and used-car salesmen.

  • mratbu

    Maybe I’m a little jaded, but Mr. Klein’s defense wasn’t so convincing. The issue isn’t whether Journolist conspired to undermine Sarah Palin’s candidacy for vice president. Anyone could see that she wasn’t qualified. The issue is whether Journolist conspired to support Obama–someone with even less experience than Palin running for a much more important position.

    Unfortunately, Mr. Klein’s posting doesn’t clear up the allegations that a supposedly unbiased reporter is in fact very biased. Instead, it provides evidence of the bias.

  • avannr

    I am sure if and when a conservative list is found, you all will be hailing it as proof of the rw conspiracy that rules the country. Left wing hypocricy as usual. It’s why I quit reading Time.

    You can keep chatting with your buds, just sign up at Cabalist, if you haven’t already.

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