In the Arena

Race to the Top

David Brooks makes a not-very-convincing, and somewhat confused, case against more economic stimulus in his column today. His argument, essentially, is that since the economy hasn’t boomed in the wake of Obama’s stimulus plan, the plan probably didn’t work. I’m no economist–and, as Brooks accurately points out, most economists are far too convinced of their own righteousness, regardless of the policy results–but I’d guess that the stimulus pretty much worked as planned: it prevented the bottom from dropping out of the economy.

The question is, what to do now–now that we may be sliding, as the American economy did toward the end of Franklin Roosevelt’s first term, back toward recession or, at best, stagnation? Brooks argues that piling up more debt would have an intense psychological impact on the business community, dampening their optimism and stifling growth. I don’t know about that. My father was a small businessman and he operated this way: when demand increased, he expanded; when demand  contracted, he tightened his belt judiciously. He was not affected by, or much interested in, macro economic decisions made by the federal government (although he did cast his first vote for FDR). I’d guess that the business community will respond to demand, even if that demand is the result of government-stimulated jobs.

But Brooks does make an important point toward the end of the column: this is absolutely the moment to make state and local government more efficient. He proposes a program similar to the Education Department’s “Race to the Top,”  which rewards–at Education Secretary Arne Duncan’s discretion–those states that come up with the best new innovations. A few weeks ago, I proposed here that if we’re going to spend federal taxpayers’ money to retain teachers who are about to be laid off, those teachers should be retained according to ability, not seniority. Sadly, I haven’t seen many Democrats–slavish in their devotion to the teachers’ unions–take up that call.

The fact is, that the rules governing the hiring and retaining of public employees are vestiges of another era–an era when government had to provide some perks to compete with higher-paying manufacturing jobs. Those perks usually involved job security and generous pension packages. I met a fellow the other day who had just retired from his state’s corrections system at the age of 47, after 20 years of service as a prison guard. He was getting a full pension and working full-time on top of that as a mechanic. I don’t begrudge him his double-income; he played according to the rules and he deserves it. But I do question the rules.

It is time to revise the public pension system. There aren’t so many high-paying manufacturing jobs anymore; the relative security of government work doesn’t need to be augmented by ridiculously obstruse procedures for firing incompetents or by 20-year pension packages. A nice 401k, with healthy matching funds, should be sufficient.

This is a sad choice, but an essential one. We can either continue to fund the pension system and lose essential services; or we can change the pension system and continue the service-levels–the policing, firefighting, emergency response and garbage pickup–that we’ve come to expect. The public seems quite unwilling to continue to pay the higher taxes necessary to sustain both. And given our straitened circumstances, and the need to encourage a new burst of private entrepreneurialism, there is a strong argument that any further government stimulus needs to be accompanied by a rigorous program of governmental reform.

Related Topics: Budgets, Economy, Education, Uncategorized
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  • nflfoghorn

    How about people who “retire” early needing a second income to pay for health care? Still too early to see how the new law will impact people who’re in this boat, but I suppose it’s cheaper for the government to let people retire on (likely) half the pension they’d be making had they stayed on versus paying for their income and their health care too.

  • bacotawordpress

    In the small town where I used to live I saw two businesses that had been successful for decades close because the owner “got a job with the county”. They closed their businesses to get health insurance and a pension.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    Economics is not an exact science, like one of the natural sciences because it studies human beings, not plants. Because of their free will there is no telling what humans might will into existence. There are decades of economic history one can work from, to try to determine which economic theory is true or not. At the very least one can get probable truth. For example, when was the last time cutting back on economic stimulus, in the middle of a recession/depression, worked? Did it work when Thatcher did it? How is that policy working out in Ireland, right now?
    .
    In addition to not explaining how Keynes has not really been used to the full extent by this half assed administration notice how Brooks and JK both fail to mention the two wars and the 700 billion dollar military budget, when they talk about the need to cut back. They would rather take an ax to the teachers or gov’t workers.
    .
    Given their preference for exact sciences here is a mathematical truth. Cutting 20% of a line item that makes up 65% of the total budget, will reduce costs more than cutting an item, that makes up 2% of the total budget, by 75%.

  • freeinpa

    “This is a sad choice, but an essential one. We can either continue to fund the pension system and lose essential services; or we can change the pension system and continue the service-levels–the policing, firefighting, emergency response and garbage pickup–”

    Why does the left continually use police, fire and emergency response as the focus of public pension deficits? In numbers that are probably far exceeded by worthless bureaucrats and political hacks that are nothing but a drain on tax revenues.

    That aside concerns of how they will pay for health care need to look no further than what was announced by Merkel and Germany’s government plan. To close deficit Germans will be charged 15.5% of pay for HC. For a middle class person making $50,000 that translates to $7,750.

    It is not a stretch to view what will be the fate of the ill-conceived HC reform we have here: Higher premiums, larger deficits and HC rationing all of which the left has denied would happen.

  • kevin

    In numbers that are probably far exceeded by worthless bureaucrats and political hacks that are nothing but a drain on tax revenues.
    .
    As soon as you can move past “probably,” I’m all ears.
    .
    Seriously, if there are bureaucrats who are pulling in fat salaries and perks and doing nothing (or nothing we as a nation need), then identify them and I’ll join you in calling for their jobs to be ended.
    .
    But for some reason, I’ve never seen the Glenn Becks of the world move past talking about vaguely identified “bureaucrats” who are living high on the hog to actually naming them, their specific positions and all.
    .
    These are matters of public record. You want to end some wasteful jobs, point them out for us.

  • destor23

    Joe, the guy was a prison guard. That’s one of the hardest, most dangerous, depressing jobs imaginable. Working that for 20 years makes him the equivalent of a close quarters combat veteran in my book. Not only do I not begrudge him his reward (which also doesn’t sound that great — it’s just a pension and the time to pursue another career) but I think he deserves more.

    You say that a nice 401(k) with healthy matching funds should be sufficient. Maybe. But given the negative real rate of return from the equity markets over the past 10 years and current low rates offered by bonds and money markets, I’m not sure of that at all.

  • Paul-no not that one

    How novel-A JK post about how OTHER PEOPLE must sacrifice.
    .
    At some point it would be refreshing to read something about, at a minimum, shared sacrifice. That is to say something that would actually touch his privileged world.

  • newfreedomblog

    Ask and you shall receive:
    .

    “West Wing pay ranged from $21,000 for a part-time worker to nearly $180,000. Salary was set at $172,200 for 23 senior aides, including Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, press secretary Robert Gibbs, White House Counsel Robert Bauer, speechwriter Jon Favreau, energy and climate adviser Carol M. Browner and Susan Sher, chief of staff for first lady Michelle Obama. Two health-care policy “detailees,” Michael M. Hash and Timothy P. Love, are paid $179,700.

    Down the scale, Emanuel deputy Robert L. Nabors makes $162,500; top health-care policy adviser Nancy-Ann DeParle, $158,500; and White House ethics lawyer Norm Eisen, $149,000.

    .
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/01/AR2010070106496.html
    .
    And by the way, that is ONLY the White House staff to the tune of over 38,000,000 MILLION dollars. Imagine that, “But for some reason, I’ve never seen the Glenn Becks of the world move past talking about vaguely identified “bureaucrats” who are living high on the hog to actually naming them, their specific positions and all.”
    .
    Once you go down the list, there are a vast number of White House staff members making $172,200 thousand dollars per year.
    .
    Add in those who now work for the Obama Administration in the Depts of Education, Interior, Defense and on and on. How much waste is there? How large has our Federal Government grown?
    .
    I do agree with Derek’s assumption to cut 20% of the Defense budget. I believe we would acheive that goal by simply shutting down all of the bases overseas that are no longer needed such as those in Germany, Japan, England, and most likely places no one has ever heard of or even gives a rat$ a$$ about.
    .
    But, you also cannot overlook the waste, fraud and abuse of our bloated and out of control Federal and State Governments. It is time to scale them back. It is time to put local ownership of our government back into the hands of the people. No more lobbyist, no more political hacks voted into office for life like the recently departed ex-KKK member Robert Byrd because they can get this pork project and have millions funneled back into their campaign warchests.
    .
    Wake up America before it is too late.

  • bobcn1

    Joe Klein uses an anecdote of a pensioner he met who has a generous pension to argue that pensions are no longer necessary. He argues that 401ks are sufficient for everyone’s retirement.

    I see two obvious problems with his argument. First, 401ks are not a substitute for a pension. They were never intended to be. They were designed to be a supplement to a traditional (for the 1970s and earlier) pension plan — not a replacement for it. Few middle class workers have 401s that can actually sustain them in retirement. Additionally, in the same way that pensions have disappeared, employer 401k contribution matching is also disappearing.

    Second, unlike a ‘Race to the Top’, Klein is actually proposing a race to the bottom. The problem isn’t that pension systems are generally too generous. The problem is that not enough people have them. We accept corporate executives that receive incredible compensation packages, while the employees who actually produce the goods and services that the corporations sell no longer receive any pensions at all.

    The question shouldn’t be ‘why should union members get a pension when I don’t have one?’ (the answer is that they fought for it). Instead, we should be asking, ‘how can I achieve the kind of retirement security that was normal in my father’s time?’ — a pension.

  • Joe Klein

    Paul–Somehow you must have missed the numerous posts where I supported the following: restoration of the Clinton tax rates for the wealthy, restoration of a healthy inheritance tax, a transactions tax for derivatives trading, a stiff gasoline tax with the money refunded to alleviate payroll tax burdens, which hit working class Americans disproportionately.

    I’d call that shared sacrifice. I also favor taking an axe to the Pentagon weapons budget while retaining full benefits for military personnel.

    And to answer Destor above, I understand how difficult a job being a prison guard is. I’m not sure that members of the public, many of whom also work dirty and difficult jobs, understand why the pension rules for prison guards should be any different from those that private sector workers struggle along with. There is an equity question here that has to be addressed.

  • formerlyjames

    Very general, generic, and vague discussions such as this about anything, including government budgets, serves absolutely no purpose or benefit. Same goes for anecdotal evidence of one retired prison guard. Especially, as Derek implies, coming from such a vociferous supporter of the biggest glutton at the trough, the military.

  • nflfoghorn

    Or why MY pension is considered less important than a soldier’s policeman’s or fireman’s. No one put a gun to their collective heads and said ‘you must work here.’

  • oboe14

    “David Brooks makes a not-very-convincing, and somewhat confused, case against more economic stimulus in his column today.”

    Joe,

    I think you miss the main point of Brooks’ column. It’s not so much an economic argument as a biting and humorous attack on that pompous bloviator, and NY Times op ed colleague, Paul Krugman.

    Brooks describes certain economists with “high I.Q.’s, but they seem to be strangers to doubt and modesty.” Anyone doubt who he’s talking about?

    What fun! I imagine the corridors are buzzing today over at the Grey Lady.

  • kevin

    No, I was looking for an answer from someone who isn’t insane. Someone who wouldn’t suggest “White House Chief of Staff” as a job that doesn’t do anything.

  • m0mentom0ri

    “To close deficit Germans will be charged 15.5% of pay for HC.”
    .
    Considering we’re spending about 17% per capita in the U.S., 15.5% sounds like a good deal.
    .
    http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/vol23/issue3/images/large/reinhardt_4b.jpeg

  • newfreedomblog

    “The question shouldn’t be ‘why should union members get a pension when I don’t have one?’ (the answer is that they fought for it). Instead, we should be asking, ‘how can I achieve the kind of retirement security that was normal in my father’s time?’ — a pension.”

    .
    Oh, you mean these Union pensions, right?
    .
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303491304575188263180553530.html
    .

    The Union Pension Bailout
    A scheme for taxpayers to cover mismanaged multi-employer plans.

    .
    Yes indeedy, those big Union pensions are really the saving grace for those of us not lucky to have one, or a President who was bought by Big Union who will bail them out with our hard earned tax dollars.
    .
    What isn’t fair about that, those great Union workers, well, they just simply (the answer is that they fought for it).
    .
    How about all the rest of my fellow, non-union tax payers. How does it feel to be screwed with your pants on?

  • 53_3

    Joe:
    .
    I think one issue that hasn’t been raised is that many opponents of stimulus believe that the realization of their ideology is the “omelet”, and those who would suffer economically are merely the “broken eggs” it takes to make it.
    .
    That is pretty much the Libertarian view, as well as the view of those who believe in social Darwinism…

  • newfreedomblog

    Oh my poor little kevie, is that the best you can do?

  • 53_3

    Rusty:
    .
    Look up labor history in the US.
    .
    Also, look up “Dickensian economy”
    .
    The two are connected. Can you figure it out?

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    normally, people like newfreedomblog spend their days watching espn, and if they argue online its over sports hypotheticals and stats. how did it ever happen that you ended up arguing public policy?

  • freeinpa

    These are matters of public record. You want to end some wasteful jobs, point them out for us.

    Take a look at any staff of any Senator or Congressman, the Dept of Interior, Education, State, EPA and the list goes on.

    Let me know when to expect my tax refund for supporting these useless folks

  • lepidusxvi

    newfreedomblog: You cannot possibly think that people in the White House do nothing? Are you seriously proposing eliminating one of the branches of government as wasteful?
    .
    Salaries have to be that high to just live in the DC area. Let alone the simple math that Republican or Democrat, these people are all leaving behind huge salaries in the private sector to serve their country. If you made it impossible to work in government by slashing their salaries so low, no one would. You want the smartest people in the room to work in the White House and Congress, not the dumbest ones. As it is, the salaries are likely already too low to attract the very best and brightest. You essentially have to be independently wealthy to be both qualified and willing to work in the White House or the other branches.
    .
    You may not like Obama, fine, but remember that it is an institution someone you like will run in 4, 8, 12, or 16 years. If you gut it today, you gut it forever.

  • newfreedomblog

    Why IQ53, why would I even waste my time to do anything you ask me?

  • lepidusxvi

    In fact an irony of the entire political system now is that the Executive branch was intentionally made the weakest as a reaction to the monarchy. They didn’t want a ruling elite to run their government.
    .
    Now as a result of the low pay, these are not jobs people aspire to. They are jobs people do for service and the visibility after they’ve already gotten rich.
    .
    In effect, low pay in senior/visible government positions has ensured that a select group of rich citizens are continually in positions of power in the government.
    .
    1600s England says hello.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    “since the economy hasn’t boomed in the wake of Obama’s stimulus plan, the plan probably didn’t work”

    I read that thing last night and I’m pretty sure that wasn’t one of his assertions. He said its impossible to verify. His larger point was that we should go with some solutions that are more surefire and less costly than a second stimulus, since even if the new Keynesians are right with their models (and that’s no sure thing) they ignore the reality of current perception and its effect on investor confidence. Investors do tend to hoard cash when they are scared, and right now many are scared by increasing deficits. Your dad’s anecdote can’t possibly overturn that.
    .
    ugh. the only thing worse that Brooks arguing economics is Joe Klein arguing economics. And the only thing worse that Joe arguing economics is ME arguing economics!

  • newfreedomblog

    That IS the entire point, lepidusxi, I want the federal government gutted. Gutted so bad that you can have a President and maybe a couple Secretaries and the staff total would be about what is the current number employed by just the White House.
    .
    It is called “Limited Government”, lepidu. A Federal Government which is smaller than the average State Government. A Federal Government whose basic responsibility is to maintain a standing army, carry on the functions of our foreign policy at the advise and consent of the States or their elected representatives, and the rest is returned to the individuval States to do with as the citizens of those States see fit.
    .
    Using the current oil spill as an example. It is now over 76 days since the spill. What good has the Feds been? What has Obambi done to make it stop?
    .
    Control and the money should be in the hands of those who are much more closer to the problem, the Govs within those States affected. Anytime you centralize the power of the Government you get further and further away from the core of the problem. You have to spend more, and get less results for your money.
    .
    I am currently fighting against a proposed bill to give you another example, which wants to abolish local government. This madman wants to get rid of our local town councils and township forms of government and place it into the control of the County government. Again, further away from the people who care about this area, who are involved with this area, and who will be the most fiscally responsible with our local tax dollars.
    .
    Hopefully that makes sense to you Mr lepidu.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    oh and here’s Krugman’s brief response to the column:
    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/06/arguments-from-authority/

  • Paul-no not that one

    Thanks for the reply.
    .
    I Googled some of the topics that you mention making numerous posts on.
    .
    For the gas tax/payroll tax issue I found one from January 2009.
    .
    I found a couple about the Clinton tax rates.
    .
    I didn’t find any posts on transactions tax for derivatives trading but I certainly may have missed something on the Google.
    .
    Nothing on the inheritance tax but it looks like you discussed it on Mathews show.
    .
    So I am left to conclude that those positions are much less important to you than the need for unions to give up what they earned through collective bargaining?

  • pelhamite1

    It’s easy for you, Joe, to recommend that the age of retirement for public employees be increased, but as one such public employee, I have to say—

    I agree.

    The fact is, since Otto von Bismarck established 65 as the age in which German soldiers began recieving their pensions, which served as the baseline for most retirement ages ever since, human health and ife spans have improved immeasurably. And while there are a few physical jobs in which service beyond 65 might have to excepted, the great majority -teachers, bus drivers, librarians and administrators of all sorts- can and should contribute to a greater age than previously. In a nation such as ours, in which older people are in the process of comprising a larger percentage of the population, it is the only way of avoiding a situation in which younger americans are supporting an overlarge, inactive senior class. To do otherwise, frankly, is to doom every American state, and the nation as a whole, to the kind of constant financial crisis and public sector degradation that we are now seeing in California and illinois, which is a condition that cannot be sustained.

  • lepidusxvi

    Fair enough. I can respect that position, it’s a fair point to make and the actual heart of the Left/Right debate once people get past all this social nonsense.
    .
    And I agree with you on the local government thing. Abolishing them is absurd. Fight away, I am sure lots of raving lefties would join you on that one.
    .
    But let’s take your version to its logical conclusion. Are you prepared for a system where Alabama is a third world country and New York is driving on roads studded with pearls?
    .
    The Federal Government, by design, is a great equalizer. It keeps weaker states propped up. I am not picking on Alabama, but it is a state that would more or less devolve into Mad Max without the federal government and there are plenty of others that would go along with it.
    .
    A side effect of the strong federal government over the last 60-70 years is that there are a lot of artificially inflated states in the union. If you cut the federal government down to military, ceremony and foreign relations, there would be a really harsh course correction at the state level. In time it might balance out in time, but more than a few states would assuredly implode before it did.

  • kevin

    Hopefully that makes sense to you Mr lepidu.
    .
    Not unless he’s huffing the same brand of spray paint as you.
    .
    Those are brilliant ideas, Rusty. I hope the GOP embraces your slogan of “building a bridge to the 17th century.”

  • ohiolibb

    A Federal Government which is smaller than the average State Government
    -
    Except, rustyblog, that’s NOT what the founders wanted, NOT what they created, and NOT what we have. That’s called a confederacy, and it was tried. It failed. Look up the Articles of Confederation sometime. Instead we have a federal gov’t. Where the state and national governments are designed to balance each other. I know it doesn’t play well with your racist, ignorant ramblings, but it’s true.

  • shepherdwong

    Let me see if I’ve got this right: Joe Klein lectures working class people for being paid more than they’re worth based on a column by David Brooks lecturing a Nobel-winning economist for being too arrogant. Anyone know how to fix an exploded irony meter?
    .
    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/06/arguments-from-authority/?src=twt&twt=NytimesKrugman

  • lepidusxvi

    kevin/ohiolibb — There is no need to call him names. That post, even if you disagree, is intellectually honest and fair argument to make.
    .
    Tacking to calling him names and inferring things he didn’t say is 95% of the reason politics is so screwed up.

  • destor23

    @JoeKlein: Thanks for the reply. I agree with you about other people in dirty, difficult and dangerous jobs wondering why they don’t have the kind of pension your friend does. But isn’t the answer to fill the pension gap (bring those workers up) rather than move your friend down?

  • newfreedomblog

    Yes Mr lepidu, there is a slight risk that a State by itself could go down the tubes. That the standard of living from one State to the other could vary in degrees. The option for you is to move to a State that better reflects your standard of living. Oh my, we have that now. Well it was a good try none-the-less. If you want a big bloated over taxed, and near socialist State, then you have your chance to give it a try. (I’ll bet those industries and businesses would soon relocate to those States who base their economies on Capitalism).
    .
    But think of it this way, would you like the entire country to collaspe from unsustainable policies such as Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid? Or, imagine this, State govenments controlling how much is spent through balanced budgets actually capping the liability through those balanced budgets.
    .
    And, have you read recently. Those big peral studded street States like New York (more so California) are actually a few more dollars of debt away from bankruptcy. Is Alabama in or near bankruptcy? Nope!!
    .
    I rest my case.

  • grape_crush

    FTW. Debate over.

    And you just have to wonder how it’s possible to have lived through the last ten years and still imagine that because a lot of Serious People believe something, you should believe it too. Iraq? Housing bubble? Inflation? (It’s worth remembering that Trichet actually raised rates in June 2008, because he believed that inflation — not the financial crisis — was the big threat facing Europe.)
    .
    The moral I’ve taken from recent years isn’t Be Humble — it’s Question Authority. And you should too.

  • lepidusxvi

    There is no explicit “equalization” like a lot of modern countries have (Canada for example), but there are mechanisms that ensure that the richer states help out the poorer. These would go away.
    .
    Now, most rational people would agree that the government shouldn’t overspend. Even liberals. The issue is that Americans refuse to accept higher taxes, refuse to accept cuts to services, and expect new programs. Maybe not you, but it’s hard to deny that is a general sentiment.
    .
    The richer states are buckling under programs above and beyond what they could afford, while the poorer states never went there in the first place because they knew it would never work for them. Good for them, but not so good for the people who live there.
    .
    California independent of the US would sort itself out. They may lose some programs that other states don’t even have, but they’d continue to be a world power. Utah, New Mexico, Idaho, South Carolina, Alabama, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Arkansas, West Virginia and Mississippi would become places that California, New York and Massachusetts conducted prime time telethons for.
    .
    Surely this cannot be what you want?
    .
    Let’s take the oil spill. The US as a country has the resources and influence to at the least force BP into paying for it. Look to African history to see the amount of regard small third world countries get from similar corporations (Nigeria for example).
    .
    They may be further from the issue, but a strong federal government can bring federal resources to bare on a problem that a state or local government simply cannot. Their track record is piss poor lately, but if Louisiana were not part of the US, I’d shutter to think how much worse Katrina would have been.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “This madman wants to get rid of our local town councils and township forms of government and place it into the control of the County government.”
    .
    Immediately to my East are Nassau and Suffolk Counties with County run police and schools. There is no redundancy in either.
    .
    To my West, just West of Manhattan in New Jersey with a separate police department and school every fifteen feet (or so it seems) with multiple redundant school boards, multiple redundant police chiefs and tons of redundant paper pushers never fully utilized by economies of scale.
    .
    Nassau and Suffolk Counties are doing okay despite the recession. New Jersey Cities and towns are hit hard.
    .
    In the 1980s it was all about private sector, for profit businesses merging and acquiring one another pretending that it did not have an adverse impact in many cases on competition giving consumers fewer choices, but, correctly claiming that they were saving money by eliminating redundancies.
    .
    Since cities, towns and neighborhoods are, in reality, not in competition with one another, your ideal of small town government and the ideal of getting rid of extra bureaucrats are contradictory. You can have one or the other, but not both.
    .
    Pick one and, if you pick supporting county government over local government for some things such as police, fire and schools, I will do something I do not believe I have done more than once before: agree with you.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Why IQ53, why would I even waste my time to do anything you ask me?”
    .
    Because your ignorance is overwhelming.

  • lepidusxvi

    Googling on the subject I found a paper from a UCLA prof that examines a federal equalization system modeled on Canada for the USA.
    .
    http://cdn.law.ucla.edu/SiteCollectionDocuments/centers%20and%20programs/business%20law%20and%20policy%20program/stark,%20rich%20states,%20poor%20states.pdf
    .
    I am curious where you’d fall on this. The Federal Government would equalize the states to ensure they all have equal levels of resources. In effect, the states themselves are responsible for administering these resources. The Federal government would just sort it.
    .
    The idea is to give each the resources to have a comparable level of services at a similar level of taxation. It’s the Canadian system.
    .
    Practically, the limited few states would subsidize the rest of the country. And more specifically, “blue” states would pay for “red” states.
    .
    Nonetheless, the intro specifically brings up some really interesting sociological observations. Essentially, under the current system, people in Red states tend to pay more for less, which could be to blame for their general distaste of government.
    .
    Fascinating read, and I’d really like to see your thoughts on it. Given what you just said about wanting a weaker federal government so that people closer to the problems solve them, rather than blanket solutions, this might well accomplish it in a big government, quasi-socialist kind of way.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    swissArmyBrainBETA,
    .
    More than 80% of all PhD economists are Keynesians.
    .
    To make an analogy, if stimulus was an explosive to destroy an enemy in war, it would be as if we knew 100% how much bang the explosive had but no idea what the target looks like.
    .
    Like meteorology, due to chaos theory which prevents weathermen from telling us what it will be like outside more than five days from now, Economist due to massive number of variables with no idea what will dominate, can not tell very far in advance with a great deal of certainty.
    .
    So, we do know what a stimulus package does, but we do not know what it is up against in terms of the slide downwards.
    .
    We, also, from lack of experience, have no idea how to plug up an oil well one mile beneath the water going another mile into the ground. I am just so glad that David Brooks isn’t in charge of BP because he sounds like he would want to save BP’s money on unsure things and just pay for the damage when it happens.
    .
    Apparently David Brooks is, by comparison, making Tony Hayward look good.
    .
    I hope David Brooks can get his life back because, if he has nothing more creative to say than to quit working on ending this recession, I would be thrilled to see him, instead, go sailing with his son (presuming he sails and has a son) rather than come up with these kinds of things.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    So long as such laws clearly keep the younger retirement age for particular jobs. I don’t want to call the Police and find a 67 year old responding. I don’t want a 68 year old fireman trying to put out a blaze. I don’t know if a 69 year old paramedic would be helpful.
    .
    In general, I do agree with you, but, it needs to be a two tiered system to include things for manual laborers.

  • newfreedomblog

    Mr Lepidu, I do understand what you are trying to say. It is not very different than what I also oppose in the abolishment of our local forms of Government here in Pennsylvania by centralizing it with the County Government. (Also to address here Mr sartor, our local townships rely on the State Police, however our schools are run by each district usually within one or two townships. If School District A spends too much, you can get elected or sell your home and move into a district that is not as spend-crazy as the other one. All other resources are rendered at the State level with the excpetion of the court system, county jail, and the 911 emergency management. I have no problem keeping it the same as it is currently).
    .
    Canada has a form of Government whereby it is pretty much broken up into large, almost regional but still more local than a big bloated Federal Government style of Government. Canada also does not appear to be having the same economic woes we are having either. Why is that?
    .
    I just believe the closer we get our government to the local level the better the results. The better people manage the tax dollars, and more control is given to the people rather than a few mega superstars in the Senate.
    .
    The House of Representatives is nothing more than pork eating hungry pack of dogs. If that was parred down and more of the tax dollars are spent by State rather than Federal, I strongly believe the spending of those dollars would be held more accountable by the people, you and I.
    .
    Again, if you didn’t like how a particular State was running its business, or the laws within that specific State, as an American Citizen you could vote with your feet and move to a State which had more of the types of laws that best reflected your ideals.
    .
    But I would also hope that States regionally would work together to not only promote trade amongst themselves, but State A would help State B out if they got into trouble from bad policy. But if State B passes bad legislation, that State will feel the brunt of the consequences, not the rest of us for poor policy decisions. Competition drives down the cost of everything. If State A had a business, but because of lower taxes they attracted that business to State B, then the incentive to keep taxes low, job growth at a maximum would occur. It also puts pressure on States to contain their spending, especially on pork projects that we all know are so wasteful as a general rule.

  • rmorris101

    “It is called “Limited Government”, lepidu. A Federal Government which is smaller than the average State Government. A Federal Government whose basic responsibility is to maintain a standing army, carry on the functions of our foreign policy at the advise and consent of the States or their elected representatives, and the rest is returned to the individuval States to do with as the citizens of those States see fit.”

    That’s almost exactly what the Articles of Confederation were all about, back in the 1770s and 1780s. Unfortunately, the Articles didn’t actually work worth a damn, even back then. And that’s why the Founding Fathers ( and presumably the Mothers as well) abandoned them in favor of the Constitution in 1789. The experiment has been tried, and it failed miserably.

  • 53_3

    “Why IQ53, why would I even waste my time to do anything you ask me?”
    .
    Maybe you have a point, Rusty. After all, it does present you with some problems, namely, that history is different than you portray it, and also, you would very likely lose the argument.
    .
    By the way, how is that Sleeping White Giant doing these days? Sleeping soundly? Looking a little anemic?
    .
    Party on…

  • Paul-no not that one

    Here’s an interesting counter-intuitive take on retirement ages. Lower them don’t raise them.
    .
    http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2009/08/cash-geezers-lower-retirement-age-55-now

  • 53_3

    Watching these proceedings with great interest. A lot of content here…

  • newfreedomblog

    A very interesting article you cite Mr lepidu about Canada’s form of “fair tax” across their various provincial Governments.
    .
    I have a niece who married a Canadian, and they live in British Columbia, a beautiful area. Their average standard of living is much higher, and on par with California, but their tax burdens are also on par or lower. There is much positive about the Canadian system, and why I listed it in my last comment.
    .
    However, in reading the article you cite, the first major fear I have and what I read and what flashes into my mind is the word, socialism. While I would not say Canada is a socialist Country by any means, they are far and above more soclist than we are in the US.
    .
    With my thoughts on a smaller Federal Government, with States having the bulk of the responsibility especially with day to day types of issues and policies, I also advocate for individual reponsibility. One thing we have left by the roadside in America is personal responsibility.
    .
    I strongly believe in life’s lessons, one either learns reponsibility quickly or you soon find yourself eating tuna fish 5 days a week, unless you are fortunate to have a bailout Mommie and Daddy.
    .
    But, the big bloated and “socialized” programs in America we have created, have also destroyed personal responsibility in this country. We have nearly 56% of our society who are dependent upon the government for their survival or they work for the government as an employee. This cannot and will not survive long.
    .
    Not 50 years ago, those same numbers were not only reversed, but it was more like 70% of the people were employed or depended upon private sector, while 30% relied on the government. That is one major reason in my opinion this country has had 60+ years of nearly continuous growth, and we have become the most powerful country on earth.
    .
    We are raising what I call generational welfare citizens. People who have found the secret of how to barely survive on government subsistance. We have also put to the side the 1980/90 initiatives of welfare to workfare, which was working and part of the great economy of the 1990′s. We simply lost focus on those programs and reverted back to the pre-1990 social justice programs. Why? Because those people didn’t like it. They want their government handouts, they do not want to be productive citizens and will leech upon the rest of us so they do not have reponsibility or have the need to be a productive member of our society.
    .
    Listen to this recent July 4th speech by LTC Allen West. He summarizes what I also believe in his speech. He is also running for the Congressional seat from his State of Florida. We need more men and women like LTC West.
    .
    http://www.therightscoop.com/lt-col-allen-west-gives-amazing-4th-of-july-speech

  • shepherdwong

    Airline pilots are forced to retire at 65 (recently raised from age 60) so you can add train and light rail engineers, bus and trolley drivers, etc., to the list of people who probably shouldn’t be working into their late 60s. And with 10-20% real unemployment, there’s nothing counter-intuitive about retiring people early to make room for younger workers, unless you’re an aging, overpaid journalist regurgitating Village CW that is.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    im assuming your talk of keynesians was in response to my “by no means certain” comment. I was talking about the models, and so was Brooks. Given the badly missed projections about the effects this stimulus was going to have, I stand by that comment. The great uncertainty needs to enter into the cost-benefit analysis
    .
    and cost benefit analysis is what it is. In this case the cost is another 500 billion at least, so its not really like the oil well at all, and your attack on Brooks is unfair. If there were an outrageously expensive fix to to the oil leak and we were maybe 60% sure about it’s benefit, then yes, maybe Brooks would be questioning it’s wisdom, but this is not the case. any potential fixes are obviously worth trying because their costs are relatively insignificant.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    I also meant to say that it seems very unlikely 80% of economists agree w/ Krugman about stimulus vs. austerity because he has spent the last 2 weeks complaining about how no one is listening and austerity has become the general consensus. Its clear he’s not only talking about politicians but about influential economists all over the world

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    does anyone else find it funny that liberals always introduce Krugman with “nobel winning” and conservatives ALWAYS put in “former enron advisor”?
    .
    and how’s “Nobel-winning” for an appeal to authority shepherdwong? Too bad your irony meter’s busted or you might really get a laugh out of yourself there

  • shepherdwong

    “…and how’s “Nobel-winning” for an appeal to authority shepherdwong?”
    .
    Pretty damned good, actually. Unless you’re wingnut stupid (and there’s nothing funny about that).

  • newfreedomblog

    Perhaps going all the way back in time to 1780 is not the answer, but we are so far away from what was passed in 1789 with the Constitution it is no longer recognizable as well. So your argument goes both ways.

  • lepidusxvi

    Interesting how you mention Canada dodging the economic woes. The fact is, they did it through a lot of ideas that the right is railing against right now. Regulation is a huge one. The bottom line is that Canadian law forbid the banks to do the things they did in the US. It led to a lot of whining, a lot of lobbying, but in the end, the banks in Canada remain strong.
    .
    There is a lot of talk about “too big to fail,” but the real silver bullet is not to bail out these institutions with the power to capsize the country, but rather to regulate them so that they cannot get into the mess in the first place. It’s a very left idea and one Canada embraced, to their benefit.
    .
    For example, a new law raised the percentage of a down payment that someone must make in order to purchase a home. Sure, you can argue personal responsibility, but I don’t see the harm in laws the protect people from themselves when their actions can harm others. It’s the same as drunk driving laws to me. If you buying a house you cannot afford can (on mass) screw up the financial system for everyone, there better damn well be a law preventing you from doing it.
    .
    The Canada/US comparison though is an interesting one. There is something fundamentally flawed about the US system whereby a country not altogether unlike it can get so many more services for its citizens and a much more even standard of living without an astronomically higher tax rate.
    .
    Canada did it by moving to the left though. That’s not to say moving to the right won’t do it too, but there just isn’t an example in the known universe where that’s worked. Which is why I sit on the left side of the fence.
    .
    However, it is a slippery slope. For example, to me, government shouldn’t be allowed to tell you to wear a seat belt. That’s only hurting you if something bad happens. Canada, by contrast, is well within its rights to do that. Just like it should/does tax alcohol and tobacco. It can and should because it pays for the consequences.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    *self-awareness FAIL*

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Rusty,
    .
    For a few entries it appears you are involved in intelligent debate and, therefore, I will make a comment in the same, reasonable tone.
    .
    I do believe that I can imagine the conservative ideal of government so small and so local that when getting your licenses for the few things you need your licenses for it will be with a person you met before and with short, simple, easy to use form you can handle in five minutes and with a familiar face rather than in a big room filled with strangers and forms so long that you wouldn’t want to handle them without an attorney.
    .
    However, when I get car insurance, when I have a problem with a bank, when have to talk with a credit card company, I get the same, sometimes far worse service with people I have never seen or met before than I do at the DMV or any other government organization.
    .
    I see it as now between the technology that we use and the complexity of society, we need regulations to make sure that pollution from a business does not ruin things for another business or a household. For cutting costs, we need constantly busy DMV bureaucrats rather than a counterpart in town hall, like when you get a copy of your birth certificate, who spends most of her day sipping coffee and chatting with coworkers with little to do. If our DMVs were run like the department which handles birth certificates at city hall, we would be spending five times as much to get our license even if it was done with a smile from a familiar face who has so few clients that they recognize you.
    .
    First, I do not believe that the good old days people remember is really as they remember it. There have been interesting studies of human memories. We all blot out the bad stuff either silly but dumb things we did as children to long, annoying waits for things.
    .
    Second, unless we want to go without the many things we have added on to make our lives better the past 40 to ninety years, we can never have that hometown, familiar face world back again.
    .
    I see this world as growing in complexity and, along with it, governments regulating these far more complex transactions and technologies far, far different than our founding father’s could have ever imagined. But, with a lifespan more than double what they had, health as they could never expect to have and convenience they could have never imagined, we live in a different world than our founding fathers and must make some adaptations even if it is annoying and, sometimes, a little bit expensive.

  • grape_crush

    and how’s “Nobel-winning” for an appeal to authority..
    .
    Vastly better and more legitimate than Klein’s appeal to the *ahem* expertise of David Brooks.

  • shepherdwong

    “…we are so far away from what was passed in 1789 with the Constitution it is no longer recognizable as well…”
    .
    That’s true. But we’d only have to go back to about 1865 to see it a lot more like what the Founders envisioned.

    “I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”
    .
    – Thomas Jefferson

    http://www.iiipublishing.com/afd/santaclara.html

  • newfreedomblog

    Thank you for responding Mr lepidu.
    .
    A 10% down payment requirement was in place before the Congress in the 90′s with the signature by the then President Clinton decided to deregulate banks and allow them to get involved with speculative investments. This was passed primarily due to the also known fact that with deregulation the banks would be required with the new regulations to make it easier for people to get home loans. The same banking procedures for qualifying a buyer and making sure they qualified for what they wanted to buy. Instead, Clinton demanded that housing would be backed for the most part by the Government. That is these people defaulted on their loans, Fannie or Freddie, the Government backed mega buyers of home mortgages would “bail” you out. The result, the most recent mortgage meltdown, and now thousands upon thousands who are losing their homes due to bad decisions on their part, and a government which basically demanded banks loosen their credit worthy terms.
    .
    So it is not so much on how deregulation or how changing the criteria for qualification of loans that caused the problem. The problem is that people in their quest to own a bigger, more palacial home borrowed not only more than they could afford, but did not plan on the fall in prices and a home they now are upside down on.
    .
    A simple rule of thumb for the average home owner is not to have a house payment more than 1/3 of your total net income. Even at that rather conservative estimation, you are at risk for failing because of unseen or catastrophic events which may occur.
    .
    Again, it boils down to personal reponsibility and accountability. Governments cannot nor will they ever become successful in dictating what you can and cannot do. It is most always doomed for failure, the level of failure and how it impacts the rest of us depends on how lacking or how “liberal” those terms and conditions are mandated by the government.
    .
    I say leave out the regulations for the most part. You will soon learn from the consequences if you made the wrong choices. If you make a wrong choice, then it is on you and only you to suffer the consequences, not the rest of us who do plan and are more conservative with our fiscal lives.
    .
    You see Mr lepidu, in your search to be “all fair” for one and all, you strip us from our own God-given abilities to be individuals. You take from us those valuable learning experiences in life which eventually make us successful.
    .
    Yes there are 10% or maybe even 20% of the population who are basically too stupid to even get out of the way of a speeding runaway train. That is why the government requires and I have no problem with flashing red signs which say to those same stupid people, “Danger danger, speeding train on its way, you will die if you go any further”.
    .
    There are government programs set up and have been set up for years to take care of them. Why penalize the rest of us? Why take away one of the greatest gifts our Founding Fathers gave us and that is our right to be individuals, to succeed or fail. To succeed and live the American dream. To fail, then succeed and live the American dream. Why do you want to take that away from us Mr lepidu?

  • pintortwo

    Good points raised here (including Derek above, as mentioned). Through it all, I kept thinking about Campaign Finance Reform. Were lobbies not able to donate directly to re-election campaigns (while still able to present to lawmakers), we might see some improvements. My opinion, it compromises the value of our vote- the ultimate decider of policy.

  • newfreedomblog

    “That’s not to say moving to the right won’t do it too, but there just isn’t an example in the known universe where that’s worked. Which is why I sit on the left side of the fence.”

    .
    This is not only an untrue statement, but one I would take as offensive as an American. There was such a place. It is called America. The America I grew up in for the past 50 or so odd years.
    .
    From about 1900 to 1987, America represented what is “right” with our form of Government. Simply pushing the bar more to the left, becoming more socialist is not the answer. The pitfalls of a neo-socialist european / Canadian system or form of government is quickly showing us it also does not work either. That their economies are failing and are about to collapse. I predict sooner than we will as a nation.
    .
    Ask any Greek how his socialist Democracy is working. I’ll bet you will get an ear-full. Ask a Canadian today if things are better now than they were 15 years ago. I know what the answer is, their economy and form of government is also failing them too.
    .
    You can kick the can down the road by spending more than you take in. Eventually you have to make the tough changes in order for it to succeed. You can privatize or you can socialize. Too much of one will tilt the scales towards a system which is doomed for failure.
    .
    If we do not recognize personal responsibility and fast, we go down the tubes with the rest of the socialized democracies. I am confident of it.

  • lepidusxvi

    You’re talking personal responsibility, and I agree. There needs to be that and there wasn’t when it came to the housing crisis. There also needs to be corporate responsibility and there wasn’t when it came to the crisis. From your perspective, the idiots who bought houses they couldn’t have afforded should have been left homeless and the corporations that over extended themselves should have been allowed to fail.
    .
    Fair enough, they made their bed.
    .
    The problem comes from when I lose my house, which fell inside the 1/3rd ratio because my bank hiked interest rates due to the 300,000 other people who didn’t follow the rules.
    .
    Now suddenly I’m on the hook for the lack of responsibility of my bank.
    .
    That’s why the government needs to step in. It’s not to protect the guy who bought a million dollar McMansion on a McSalary, it’s to protect the guy who played by the rules and got screwed because his bank and his neighbors didn’t.
    .
    If Obama had let GM go under, an entire way of life would have disappeared through the center of the country. Unemployment shoots up, those people buy less stuff, more businesses fail, more unemployment.
    .
    By propping these companies up artificially, they save untold numbers of people whose fault it was not.
    .
    That’s the fundamental debate here. You seem to believe that the collateral damage of these things is worth the liberty it enables. I don’t.
    .
    I do find it interesting though that you say: “Governments cannot nor will they ever become successful in dictating what you can and cannot do.” That’s a phrase I often hear from conservatives, who in the next breath preach morality based legislation. That may not be your view, I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but that’s the most damning paradox of modern American conservativism and especially the Tea Party movement. It has staying out of people’s lives and personal responsibility as a central tenet (which I can get behind), up until the moment it runs up against their moral code. Then suddenly people seem to care who someone sleeps with and what kind of smoke they inhale. I’m curious how you reconcile a government that should stay out of your wallet, but not your bedroom.

  • newfreedomblog

    Excellent point, pint. We have allowed our elected officials to turn themselves into midnight hookers in the upscale red light district. Why? Why has our current system allowed this to happen? It is a problem for the right as well as the left.
    .
    I believe, and again go back to my limited government argument. Our politicians are too far removed from the local people. They are no longer responsive to us, the voter. It has become too big. They now respond to those big money players, swamp the advertising with millions upon millions of dollars and make it nearly impossible for someone to challenge them once they become the tit sucking incumbent of the power elite.
    .
    I would be full fledge in favor of limiting the amount of money any campaign could spend on a specific election. Make it $10,000 maximum, and you will soon see how fast they knock on your door asking for your vote again.

  • newfreedomblog

    Ok, Mr lepidu, where are the moral issues you have seen promoted by TEA party members or groups. Please define, even one. I’m waiting.

  • lepidusxvi

    The pitfalls of a neo-socialist european / Canadian system or form of government is quickly showing us it also does not work either. That their economies are failing and are about to collapse. I predict sooner than we will as a nation.

    You just finished citing Canada as an example of a country that avoided the financial meltdown, now are using it as an example of a failing system. Make up your mind.
    .
    I admit my quote was hyperbolic though. An honest assessment of American history shows that it really rose to international dominance in later half of the 20th century. Partly this was as a result of World War II and partly, though, this was a vast change in direction for the country.
    .
    In the 1939 to 2000 era, the US shifted focus. Prior to that, it was far closer to what you’re describing. The era of American supremacy is the era where big government was invented.
    .
    Roosevelt kicked things off, and I’d argue that each President since has only increased the authority and scope of the Federal government.
    .
    That era coincides perfectly with an increasingly dominant world position.
    .
    To me, the US is the perfect example of how moving to a more centralized government can work. It has its warts and flaws, huge ones, and maybe you are right. Perhaps the pendulum has gone too far, but had the US remained an isolationist, state-driven Republic, it would never have achieved the national dominance it has over the last 60 years.

  • newfreedomblog

    Shep:
    .
    Greedy corporations should be crushed and I agree with Jefferson. Too big to fail is a problem in this country. We have allowed corporations to become too big to fail because of the incessant need to create a “global economy”. Powerful mega-rich companies have now gobbled up all of the once very successful more national companies.
    .
    Again, when you drift to far one way or the other, bad things surely happen.
    .
    AKA – BP and the oil spill in the Gulf.

  • lepidusxvi

    RE: Tea Party and social issues. Given there is no national “party,” I cannot just point to a website on any issue and neither can you.
    .
    You are correct, the movement is about primarily a smaller role of government. That’s fine.
    .
    But it would be naive to ignore the massive overlap with the Republican party (something like 90% of Tea Partiers identify with the Republican party over the Democratic one).
    .
    And I can imagine there is no debate that generally speaking the Republican party stands in opposition to many of the things I just described.
    .
    The point of the tea party though, I suppose, is to get back to the core ideals of the Republican party (small government) and away from the social ones that have dominated the landscape for too long.
    .
    So I’ll withdraw that one. Fair point.

  • lepidusxvi

    That said, you asked for one citation, so here you go:
    .
    http://www.teapartypatriots.org/BlogPostView.aspx?id=0758a810-25fc-4471-960e-6ac9d904fe37
    .
    This is the first link if you Google “Tea Party abortion.” That’s as far as my research went.
    .
    That said, I grant you it is not the point of the movement. I hope you can grant me though that it isn’t any kind of major logical leap to infer that if you polled every self-identified Tea Partier on whether to repeal Roe vs. Wade, you’d get a very huge landslide in favor of repeal.

  • newfreedomblog

    I did use Canada as a good reference point of a fairly successful european-style socialist-like country. But it is also failing.
    .
    It is failing because rather than stopping before they reached the tipping point with a neo-socialist country, they moved further to the left. Exactly what you are proposing and saying we should do with our own government and economy.
    .
    Suffice it to say you can be on both ends of the extreme, and risk failure because you are too far right or left.
    .
    Perhaps in another 234 years we will get it just right, but I won’t hold my breath. We have to get through this current crisis first. I believe in order for us to get through it, we cannot spend anymore despite all the old FDR quacks and nuts like Paul Krugman.
    .
    Here is a little rule of thumb I use. I do not spend more than I make. If I want something, I buy it if I can pay for it basically in cash, meaning I have the money in the bank to pay it off so I do not incurr the high interest rates on credit cards.
    .
    Again, this is personal responsibility. Barring some personal tradgedy or crisis, I will be very successful in the new economy which will come from the dust of the one on fire now. However, those lessons did not come to me easily, and I learned reponsibility from making poor choices. Experience is a great teacher. One that drives the lesson into your brain forever. It is not theory, it is fact.
    .
    My government has not learned from these same lessons despite all of the years that have gone by. Just like you with your higher interest mortgage the bank has now forced upon you, I am also being attacked with higher taxes and expected to “bail out” more people and too big to fail wall street fat cats. I consider my position as a tax payer to be even more unfair than yours as a mortgagee. At least you could have chosen to have a smaller mortgage, had you planned on an economy which is now failing and your home price has shot down in price instead of up.
    .
    My choice, pay for someone else’s mistakes or go to jail.
    .
    Let them fail, let them learn, let them come back bigger and stronger if it is meant to be.

  • shepherdwong

    “Greedy corporations should be crushed and I agree with Jefferson.”
    .
    I don’t want to crush them (Jefferson merely wanted to “crush the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations”), I just want them out of the business of writing the laws and policies of the US government, especially those related to the regulation of those same moneyed corporations. It is a monstrous corruption of the Founders’ Constitution and is destroying the world right before our eyes.

  • lepidusxvi

    Again, you cite Canada as a failing system. I’d love to see proof beyond proclamation.
    .
    One thing you and I do agree on though is that you should not routinely spend more than you have. Borrowing for big necessities with a plan to put it back makes sense. And sometimes governments must pay for things regardless of the situation. IE The government couldn’t plead poverty in the wake of a natural disaster.
    .
    However, this is a left and right problem and it has nothing to do with government intervention in people’s lives or the market. Those are separate questions.
    .
    You can have a socialist country with a balanced budget.
    .
    No Republican or Democratic government has stayed within its means since the Clinton administration and I would argue that Clinton only did by timing, not by design.
    .
    Americans demand services, Americans loathe taxes. Whoever is in power spends to get elected, whoever is out complains to get back in power.
    .
    The fact is the only real solution is to raise taxes and cut services until the books are in harmony. But if the current Congress/President did it, the Republicans would block it. If they succeeded, the Republicans would take all three in a landslide next time out.
    .
    And I don’t say that as a complaint about Republicans. I am absolutely certain that if Republicans held congress and the White House the exact same scenario would play out in reverse if they tried to raise taxes and cut services.
    .
    Anyway, I have to run. It’s been a stimulating debate. I think we can both agree on one thing: All Governments should spend no more than they bring in. I expect we would just pull opposing levers to accomplish that same goal.
    .
    Realistically though, no one in politics is going to let anyone pull either lever. That’s just sad truth of today’s environment though.

  • newfreedomblog

    Yes Mr lepidu, it was a very good discussion. One I hope my “3rd grade” liberal pals in the swamp may take note of, and before they begin to attack or become sarcastic to the point of no return, they too can enjoy with I am sure anyone of the other conservative commenters on this site.
    .
    To learn more about me, if you so choose,
    .
    http:www.newfreedomblog.com

  • piper1

    “From about 1900 to 1987, America represented what is “right” with our form of Government.”

    Rusty, could you please expound further on this. Are you saying the American golden age ended at the twilight of the Ronaldus Maximus administration?

  • apr2563

    Joe: A nice 401K. When people are ready to retire they need something less volatile than a 401K. Not only is the stock and bond market unsteady, I worked for a large business that merged with another 3 times. Each time it was just before my 401K became vested. 3 times I lost my vested amount. Also, more and more companies are either avoiding 401Ks or diminishing their contributions. Please Joe, get over your obsession with teacher’s unions and look at the real world.

  • apr2563

    i don’t want a 69 year old repairing my roof in 100 degree weather. I don’t want a 69 year old to watch over a classroom of 10 year olds. I taught. It is truely physically and mentally exhausting. How do you make a distinction about jobs that qualify for earlier retirement than others? You are just asking for an increase in the very costly disability system. After all Joe, not many of the people you accuse of laziness and ineffectiveness have the wherewithal to lay in a hammock in the Hamptoms to refresh themselves.

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    You know what’s absolutely tragic? That our president is appealing to David Brooks as an authority and not Paul Krugman?
    .
    http://nymag.com/news/media/67010/
    .
    Also perfectly natural given that O’s no liberal.

  • shepherdwong

    It’s tragic and simply unfathomable. (Snip from comment stuck in mod in thread #11) Krugman was warning that the stimulus was far too small to deal with the underlying economic problems and do what the administration claimed it would do (he even did the math for them). The point is that Krugman has been right all along while most others have been tragically, spectacularly wrong. That is where his authority comes from.
    .
    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/stimulus-arithmetic-wonkish-but-important/

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    Tragic for Americans, yup. Tragic for liberals, in whose name all this is being accomplished, yup.
    .
    Being wrong is irrelevant, from Iraq to the 3rd depression. Regardless of the party in power, pesky facts will not interfere with policy dammit! It’s only “wrong” b/c we’re looking at this superb failure through a skewed prism. We actually think the administration is trying to address the nation’s suffering, as opposed to less savory/political objectives, which IMHO are also completely f’ing wrong but I digress. Obama and co. are consciously doing exactly what they want to do.

  • newfreedomblog

    Yes piper I do belive that to be true. One of the mistakes from Reagan I will point out which in hindsight has also contributed to the downfall of this country was the beginning of the “free trade agreements”. Culminating in 1994 with NAFTA under Clinton. While Reagan cannot be held responsible solely, his tone set the stage to open up the borders and the downfall began.
    .
    Essentially these one-sided trade agreements killed our manufacturing base. It allowed for the shipment of jobs overseas. I believe we should renegoitate those agreements all over again. Either make them fair or go back to how it was before we opened up our economy to the Chinese and India in particular.
    .
    We need our good paying manufacturing jobs back. Especially when our education system is still broken and does not look like it will be fixed in the forseeable future, those children who are in schools and will only acheive a high school education will need those jobs.
    .
    A global economy links us all into a massive do or die relationship with other countries. Even countries who do not have our best interests at heart, these WTO agreements link us into a mutual destructive economic relationship. I see it as bad as the nuclear race in the 1950′s – 1980′s.
    .
    If we do not put strict requirements on our children’s education, do not hold ALL teachers accountable, then we must bring back our manufacturing jobs.

  • seeitoldya

    Klein only sees the tip of the iceberg. More than 1/5 of all federal jobs today pay annual salaries of $100k +. If the US economy is entering an era of chronic job insecurity the attractiveness of public sector employment will only increase. And yet this is the path to Third Worldism.

  • shepherdwong

    “Tragic for Americans, yup. Tragic for liberals, in whose name all this is being accomplished, yup.”
    .
    Generically, Democrats will own Obama’s policies but I don’t think liberals will, at least among anyone who has a clue. And you make it sound as if we won’t be taking everyone else with us when we go down the sh!tter.

  • maverick2k9

    And by the way, that is ONLY the White House staff to the tune of over 38,000,000 MILLION dollars – NewRustyBog.
    .
    Rusty, Before you move on to more complex subjects such as limited government, I hope you can improve your limited knowledge of math.
    .
    I don’t think WH spends $38 trillion on staff salaries.

  • 11charlie

    “I’m not sure that members of the public, many of whom also work dirty and difficult jobs, understand why the pension rules for prison guards should be any different from those that private sector workers struggle along with.”
    .
    So what’s the attrition rate for prison guards, police officers, firefighters, and yes even teachers?
    .
    It can’t be much different from the military. I know that I didn’t see too many soldiers re-up, even for part-time National Guard/Reserve duty, when they got close to their ETS date.
    .
    Why is that? Simple: emotional stress. You can overcome the physical aspects of a job (granted, this doesn’t count for teachers), but where it devours you is in your head.
    .
    In the military, it’s not just combat, but the constant deployments, the 12 to 16 hour days- six to seven days a week work, it’s the pressure to maintain high proficiency levels, it’s dealing with ever-changing conditions brought on by people who have no clue what you’re doing or what you’ve been doing. I joined the Army as an infantryman when I was 18, and by the time I was 22 I was burned out. I have to think that this is the same situation for many police officers, corrections officers, firefighters, and yes, even teachers.
    .
    I’m sure that there are similar jobs in the private sector that have a similar stree-filled impact, but what do those jobs pay in comparison? What are their attrition rates? And what are their retirement plans? Are they better or worse for thier workers compared to the public sector?
    .
    And lastly, what is the job that police officers and the others do worth? Can someone give me a dollar figure on what they think people who go into these jobs should be paid, not to mention retire on?
    .
    I remember an editorial cartoon that was on the office door in our company CP. It showed an American soldier (Gulf War vet, recipient of the Purple Heart and the Bronze Star) and his annual salary ($13,000/year), compared to an MLB player (“whines a lot for attention, works 6 months out of the year, hits a little ball with a piece of wood”) and his annual salary ($5,000,000/year).
    .
    It was funny, but also sad on how we place our priorities in this country.
    .
    Keep Up The Fire, Manchus

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    “Generically, Democrats will own Obama’s policies but I don’t think liberals will, at least among anyone who has a clue.”
    .
    Which is like saying it’s a joke Shakespeare aficionados will get. “We few, we happy few, we band of brothers”
    .
    “And you make it sound as if we won’t be taking everyone else with us when we go down the sh!tter.”
    .
    Well, I thought “tragic for Americans” line covered that. Wouldn’t you say we’re already officially inside the sh!thouse? Looming depression, endless wars supported by both parties, dems who eschew civil liberties or unemployment benefits during a catastrophic econ. collapse. That odor is the latrine my friend. But, yes, if the GOP takes power back this fall, we’re plunging into the pit “Slumdog” style.
    .
    Sadly, the folks who deserve to swim in it will be living large.

  • newfreedomblog

    Very well said.

  • egilsson1

    I log in just to associate myself with bobcn1′s comments.
    .
    For some reason when labor uses the market place to obtain labor benefits that’s criminal. What this country needs are more and stronger unions to fight for those benefits, rather than leeches and parasites like Rustydog who get the benefit of increased pay and benefits from the action of unions.
    .
    It seems for many conservatives these days, the ideal is for people to work 3 jobs at $10 an hour with no benefits. I think that’s bad for the country, because middle class people need to get money to spend it.
    .
    Republican formulas have totally failed this country, and it’s astonishing to me people still spew that nonsense.

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