The Israeli Attack

It’s hard to get get unbalanced news about Israel in the United Sates from the major news networks, so I recommend BBC, which has been pretty good:
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm
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As for your second and fourth reactions, maybe true, but the point is, one cannot punish the actions of 1.4 million people for the actions of Hamas.
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As a case in point, this is an offshoot of the much-unanticipated landslide by Hamas in the last election, which was, despite Israeli attempts, was about as free and fair as one can get in occupied territories.
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The Israelis are doing this to themselves. They deserve all the condemnation that they get, as they are deligitimizing themselves.
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The only way out of this is for Israel to stop letting the tail (the “settlers”) wag the dog.

Obama will abstain.
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This will offend everyone, but not nearly as much…

5Th reaction. Israel is wrong!

Today, the world is condemning Israel’s defense of its people against terrorism. In what was called a “Peace Flotilla,” ten people were killed by Israeli troops who boarded boats carrying what is supposedly “aid” to suffering Gazans.

As an American, I ask myself, what would I want my country to do if Cuba was sponsoring a flotilla of boats in support of al Qaeda that was headed to Miami? Or, if I were English, what would I do if Ireland was sponsoring a flotilla of boats supporting Sein Fein that was about ready to head up the Thames? The answer is simple. I would want my government to stop them in any way necessary. If the leaders of such a ”peace flotilla” did not heed warnings, then I would want force to be used.

Israel is in a fight for its life, and has been for 62 years. The people of Gaza have selected a government that is sworn to wipe Israel off the map. Arms have been pouring in by the ton, some attempted by boat disguised as aid. Other Middle East countries are complicit in the political and public-relations war that is currently being waged against Israel and the Jews, partly by such “peace demonstrators” as those in the flotilla.

As for me, I stand firmly behind Israel’s right to defend itself against the thugs who want to remove the Jewish people from Eretz Israel and history, and I am proud to say so publicly.

“And the blockade is not total–food and humanitarian supplies are allowed through by the Israelis, which renders the humanitarian aspects of the flotilla redundant.”
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I think not. Go to BBC. They have printed articles that point out that the UN determined that only 25 percent of what is needed to meet minimum humanitarian goals is met bey the allowed imports.
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In addition, I seem to remember a few articles at BBC that discuss the problem of Israelis playing a “shell game” with what’s allowed, and what is not. Further, they are using their own “formulae” for determining just at what level to maintain the population of Gaza. This is quite nasty stuff, and implicitly corroborates the claims that Gaza is an open air prison.

How is it that the UN (and you) can shout that “only 25% of the humanitarian needs” are being met by Hamas, and then remain completely silent when 250% of the missile and weapons “needs” are being met. Gaza is full of weapons of all types, and the quantity grows every day. When the people of Gaza rebel against the terrorist Hamas regime that puts amassing weapons to bomb Israel above the humanitarian needs of the Palestinian people, then maybe I will have some sympathy for the situation in Gaza. However, the plight of the people of Gaza is of their ownh doing. Israel is a victim of the Palestinian people’s poor choice of leadership.

Domestically and Internationally, it’s the only way Obama doesn’t get completely screwed.

For 62 years Israel has marginalized the Palestinians.
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What if 62 years ago Israel was set up in the state of CA.?
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There has not been any reasonable attempt by Israel to deal with the situation, and today they continue to force these people out of their homes and lands. They are imprisoned where they live, their homes are destroyed, and the materials necessary to rebuild them are blockade.
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Israel makes their own enemy.

The flotilla attacked by Israel last night was carrying materials such as cement, water purifiers, and other building materials, much of which Israel refuses to let pass into Gaza. At the end of 2009, a U.N. report found that “insufficient food and medicine is reaching Gazans, producing a further deterioration of the mental and physical health of the entire civilian population since Israel launched Operation Cast Lead against the territory,” and also “blamed the blockade for continued breakdowns of the electricity and sanitation systems due to the Israeli refusal to let spare parts needed for repair get through the crossings.”

It hardly seemed possible for Israel — after its brutal devastation of Gaza and its ongoing blockade — to engage in more heinous and repugnant crimes. But by attacking a flotilla in international waters carrying humanitarian aid, and slaughtering at least 10 people, Israel has managed to do exactly that. If Israel’s goal were to provoke as much disgust and contempt for it as possible, it’s hard to imagine how it could be doing a better job.

Note Greenwald’s Update with facts and figures from the UN about the humanitarian damages because of this blockade.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/05/31/israel/index.html

“How is it that the UN (and you) can shout that “only 25% of the humanitarian needs” are being met by Hamas, and then remain completely silent when 250% of the missile and weapons “needs” are being met.”
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How is it that Israel can blockade the food, but not stop the weapons? Do you not stop and think about that from time to time?
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Apparently the blockade is not very successful in it’s ultimate goal, of stopping missile strikes from within Palestinian territories. Israel’s position is BS the goal is not to stop missile strikes but to command the the whole area, to eliminate the Palestinians, or any claim they may have to the land and their homes.

My guess the best route out of this conundrum, for Obama, is to put the gas pedal on the creation of Palestine. Use offence to offset the checkmate situation he appears to be in. That way both sides have a vested interest in the alternative and can only whine about the past to a limited degree.

Israel is weak at the moment so even the right-wingers running the country may have to settle for East Jerusalem as the capital, and the right of return for say, 250,000 Palestinians. That should get a deal done.

If you make the social systems in Palestine equal to or better than Israel, then the right of return numbers won’t be as high as the right-wing fantasies suggest.

the 6th ship had concealed handguns and attacked the IDF, when they attempted to board the ship, and escort it. The whole thing was a planned provocation, and now, everyone on the left is condemning Israel for defending itself.
Propaganda

Those are two different issues.
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Whether or not they have missiles, one may not imprison an entire people as punishment.
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I would have commented on your above comment, but your arguments are easily dismissible.
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1. The aid convoy had no missiles, and no arms for Hamas.
2. Gaza is not Israel.
3. Regardless of the Palestinians’ choices in elections, that is not grounds for inflicting punishment of an entire population.
4. Israel is not “defending itself” as the convoy was not attacking Israel, nor did it have any means to do so.
5. The ‘Al Queda’ comment is only rhetoric without content, as there were EU officials, Turkish citizens and officials, and officials and citizens from other countries as well.
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Also, talk is talk and Israel is as guilty as anyone with respect to inflammatory speech. In addition, behind all of this, you have “settlers” stealing land in a slow motion act of ethnic cleansing.
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I’ll remind you that both ethnic cleansing and collective punishment are crimes against humanity.
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The missiles are an entirely different subject.

…as Talleyrand might have said about it “It was worse than a crime, it was a mistake”.

I can see the motivation for attacking the ships at night before they reached territorial waters – catch the people on board napping, and minimise the chances of a daylight operation and the awful visuals such a daylight attack would entail. But surely it should have registered with someone that with so many hundreds aboard, there would many still awake and alert. And it’s not 1985 any more, half the mobile phones on the ship would have had (and apparently did have) video capability.

Israel cannot go knocking off ships flagged to friendly states in International waters, just because it’s expedient. There is no excuse.

Finally, the reason Hamas is hanging onto Gilad Shalit is because they expect to exchange him for some of their own men, many of who are also being held extra-judicially (if understandably) by Israel. Ulimately any argument about anything in Israel/Palestine comes down to A doing something to B because B did something to a A because A did something to B ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Sorry – none of this is an excuse to have 65% of the kids in Gaza undernourished. In what way is this going to solve anything?

And the previous commenters are right, Obama will abstain in the vote of condemnation – which will be about as much use as any other UN resolution.

Israel is a country where the government does everything in its power to create enemies and then justifies its actions against the enemy it helped to create.

The right wing government of Bibi Netanyahu continues to undermine any chances at peace, and only serves to undercut any efforts of the United States to help it reach a peace deal with the Palestinians.

The blockade of the Gaza strip is a perfect example. Israel (with the assistance of Egypt) Israel hoped the people of Gaza would turn against Hamas and embrace the more moderate Palestinian Authority. The problem is for people to believe the Palestinian Authority can help them, Israel needed to make Abbas and his cabal look good in the Palestinian’s eyes. Instead, the Netanhayu regime has made Abbas look weak and impotent.

Instead of turning to moderates, who have accomplished nothing in recent years, they are helping even more radical groups than Hamas. Thanks to the Israeli (and Egyptian) blockade, Al Queda has a foothold in Gaza (which Hamas has been fighting against) and it is these radical groups, outside the control of Hamas, who have been firing rockets into Israel.

When your hair is on fire, you don’t put it out by pouring gasoline, yet, the Israeli government seems to think putting oil in its hair will lower the flames.

You did not need commandos to board the boats. Simple Coast Guard like blockade would have been appropriate. They should have just blocked the ships.

The problem is you have those in the Israeli military looking for long lost glory that even they are starting to believe the myths of Israeli military prowlness.

Lots of nonsense going on here. What would the Allies have done if boatloads of supplies were heading to help the Axis in WWII? As for collective punishment of Gaza, the Gazans elected Hamas despite Hamas’ pledge to destroy Israel. The Germans also elected Hitler. Like the Germans, the Gazans are now responsbile for their actions and the actions of their elected government. As for the peaceful nature of the flottila, they were praising the massacre of Jews at Khaybar by Muhamad and wishing to be martyrs: http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2489.htmhe Considering the tendency of Palestinians to blow themselves up in peaceful events, it doesn’t suprise me that some of them met Allah.

Bibi has to end his coalition government with the RW crazies and form a centrist and sane government with Kadima.

Isn’t that what Obama’s has been trying to get to happen for a long time now?

Now is the time to push it as Israel continues doing its best to make itself an international pariah.

Do I have to point out again that you are engaging in empty rhetoric, and have now edged into hateful rhetoric?
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1. Again this is a humanitarian aid convoy, and it was clear from the start.
2. Again, Gaza is not Israel.
3. Again, talk is talk, and Israel is just as guilty.
4. Again they did not a county that is at war with Israel, or even supports a war with Israel.
5. Again, it is against international law to punish an entire population

I dont bother making any comments about anything usually but this thing the Israel government has done is the final straw. I dont like any of the violence going on in the middle east but Israel is is standing on thin ice here i’m sure. We are all supposed to be sympathetic to their long hard history but to be honest these people that represent Israel now are doing their ancestors an injustice. Your making the so called bad guys look good. This could have been delt with Sooo many other ways. You have grown into a powerful country and you demonstrate more often not to defend but to attack. poor form

Hateful? You mean pointing out the chants about the Army of Muhamad massacaring Jews at Khaybar? Don’t shoot the messenger!

Hamas is not at war with Israel? Have you read their charter lately? Schallit is free? They send flowers to Sedorot?

Blockading a coutry that is at war with you to make sure they don’t receive weapons is legal: Look at the US in Cuba 1962, the Allies in WWII. By the way, don’t the Arabs try to enforce an embargo on Israel?

If they wanted to get supplies to Gaza, all they had to do was to submit to inspection so that it could be confirmed that there are no weapons or materials to build weapons on board. They wanted a show instead. They chanted for martyrdom, they got martyrdom.

“a new generation of militants who may be the next wave”.
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And this is the main issue of the Gaza crisis. They are breeding the next generation to be filled with even more hate. First the PLO were the radical terrorists, then Hamas was the “next wave of even more radicals” and in the future the next wave will be even worse.
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How can you tell the arab’s in Gaza not to be angry when they are raised in apartheid condition and have watched with their own eyes the Israeli military masacre civilians. They lose a brother, mother or sister and there is no turning back the hate. This Gaza situation is bad news for Israeli security but the politicians are like CEO’s and CFO’s just worried about the next quarterly return and could care less about 10 years down the road.
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And Joe is right, Egypt and the other arab states such as Jordan and Saudi Arabia have their hands in this cruel blockade as well. It must be tough to be Israel as the only western nation in a land where everyone else is stuck living like its still 1000 years ago. How do you negotiate with nations that are stuck in the past?

In order for anything to be refered to as a defense, it has to be in response to a credible threat. This certainly failes the test.

Was it a provocation? Probably. But that doesn’t change the equation.

How do you negotiate with nations that are stuck in the past?

Israel has found a way

The missiles are an “entirely different subject” IF they are not aimed at you. Israelis don’t have that luxury, since more than 8,000 missiles have been lobbed from Gaza at Israeli homes, schools, and businesses. If Mexico had lobbed 8,000 missiles into San Diego, what would you want the U.S. to do, give back Arizona and New Mexico and Texas?

I’m not sure I buy what you’re saying. A few offers have been made to create a Palestinian state in the last 15 years. All have been refused by the Palestinian leadership. The West Bank is by no means blockaded. Gaza is only blockaded because of Hamas terrorism – their rocket strikes against Israel reach the thousands.
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In this case, it appears the demonstrators striked first. All the convoy ships were warned of Israel’s coming, and 5 of the 6 were taken peacefully and without incident. Israeli soldiers were instructed to use as little force as necessary to take these ships. And yet an incident happened on 1 ship. Knives and live fire warranted a response, and so a response was made by the Israelis.
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I by no mean support Israel unconditionally, and would, had the incident not happened, probably have opposed the commandeering of the ships. I’m one of the young Jews Peter Beinart to which refers – I’m more ready to check my zionism at the door of my liberalism instead of vice versa. However, this incident is a refresher on how Israel can be violently targeted by seemingly innocuous forces.
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As wrong as they may be with allowing settlements in East Jerusalem and in general having been recalcitrant since Bibi’s government took over, in this case, they appear to be in the right. Not that that will help them in the international community.

53–

There’s a serious problem with your argument. First of all, Hamas was not content with merely being elected in Gaza. It staged a bloody coup against the Palestinian Authority and created, in effect, a dictatorship in Gaza. Second of all and of course: Hamas is as responsible for the conditions in Gaza as the North Koreans are for the conditions in North Korea. All it has to do is release Shalit and negotiations for the lifting of the blockade could begin and would move quickly. Finally, there is no blockade on food or medicine. There is no starvation in Gaza.

None of this removes Israel’s responsibility for this ridiculous act, but if we’re going to look at this clearly, we have to look at the problems on both sides.

Quick addendum – all the ships were warned that Israel would be coming aboard beforehand. It’s not like the Israelis were planning a surprise offensive.
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Also, Hamas isn’t hold onto Gilad Shallit for a few of their men, but for 1300 (in 2007) and possibly a few undred since then.

Both sides have developed an infinite capacity for self-delusion. If one listens to the usual suspects Israel and “Palestine” are two mature, sober and innocents”nations” in the ME. Let us forget the usual apologists and note 4 things:

The raid was carried out well outside Israel’s territorial waters so a case for “piracy” may be on the table. Turkey, which had worked with Israel to develop a reasonable relationship will now find it politically impossible to continue same. And the extermists on both sides have won this round. Sad to say Israel’s official response merits one word “pathetic”.

As usual the US President is once again given a problem he needs like a hole in his head.

Hey Joe -
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Thanks for responding to commentary and attempting to clear the air a little bit, especially on such an incendiary topic.

That relies upon Israeli Domestic support for East Jerusalem being the capital. I doubt the needle moves sufficiently from this incident for Bibi to seriously consider it.

megatronrises: You’ve made the most convincing argument of the day for me.

@ 53_3:
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Usually I agree with what you have to say but must differ on you here.
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Yes, what’s happening in Gaza is not exactly humanitarian – it’s pretty tragic, actually. However, to say that missiles systematically acquired by Hamas are irrelevant to the blockade is missing the larger picture. That’s not to say that the larger picture absolves Israeli actions, but it does add shades of grey to the black & white picture you’re painting. Hamas recalcitrance is just as much to blame as Israeli action, whether it be the 1000s of rocket attacks on Israel, it’s bloody coup of Fatah, or it’s utter refusal to return Gilad Shalit unless over a thousand of Palestinian prisoners (many of whom are terrorists) are released.
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I think there is something to say about have 250% more weapons than needed but only 25% of the needed food. Should not the same smuggling routes that are bringing weapons to the region be just as if not more focused on bringing medicine and food to the region, if those things are truly needed?

If the rest of the world would step in to disarm the Palestinians and help the peace-lovingl Palestinians (and there are some) get rid of their corrupt leadership, so that people in Gaza and the West Bank could get on with their lives, then Israel would not have to take such strong measures to ensure the safety of its people. The real culprits are all of the apologists for the terrorism of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the countless other thugs who want to destroy Israel. The world community needs to step up and face the thugs down, like we did in WWII. Instead, we have a chorus of Chamberlains.

bullshit

Oops – meant “holding”

Thanks forgottenlord!
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Also – “to which Peter Beinart” not “Peter Beinart to which.” I’ve been typing somewhat furiously today.

Please excuse my damnable typos…
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Today is a lesson on proofreading if there every was one.

The “humanitarian” flotilla had been expected to leave its port days ago and its organizers were fully aware that the Israelis intended to stop them.

It’s obvious that the organizers waited for a lull in the
Gulf oil spill headlines to make their move. Then, to ensure headlines negative to Israel, they deliberately provoked a violent confrontation on the eve of Netanyahu’s planned visit with Obama.

The ensuing scenario will be just as you describe it,
What can the Israelis do now?

Does this remind anyone of the behavior of the Nazis perhaps? How can anyone in the world defend this?

A blockade for DEMOCTRATICALLY electing a government, be it Hamas, that does not bend to the will of Israel? Is that the crime of the people in Gaza that they are being tried for?

And the US footing the bill for the defense ministry with my tax money? I would call that financing terrorism and piracy. History has repeated itself over and over, ruthless tyrants and invaders will not prevail, and neither will Israel

@ david:
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Though I agree with you at least in part, I would advise against WWII/Germany/Nazi/Hitler comparisons. They are all too common in today’s political landscape and only stoke the flames of the debate instead of making it more intelligible.
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I think either side can reasonably discuss the issues without comparing the side they disagree with to Hitler or Nazis. Be it Obama/Bush/Israel/Palestinians, no one deserves to be associated with WWII villains. The actions of modern people(s) and states should speak for themselves.

i agree with you guys when saying Israel is not Palestine and that there are some very bad things going on in that part of the world… however i think we must understand that both sides are to blame! i don’t think this conflict is as black and white as some people would like to portray it! i do think that the israeli army used excessive force but i also think that this this “aid” is a cynical propaganda that could have easily been avoid! i don’t think anyone is truly “clean” a s you would all would like to believe!
one question that i would like to know the answer to is why did the ship go through the territorial waters of Egypt?

Please see my comments 5.5 & 11.3.
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They should be in response to you as well.

Luckily then, Israel hasn’t referred to this operation as defense. Actually, I don’t know what the hell they’ve been referring to it as…
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…wait! It was a “takeover attempt.” Phew! That was a close one!
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This incident occurred in international waters. And now there is an international outcry. It is simply a disaster and Israel and Israel only could have prevented it from happening in the first place by not attacking.

Posting twice in one thread???
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You are one bold SOB.

forgottenlord I don’t believe there is a problem with most Israelis recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of both states, with the Palestinian offices in East Jerusalem. That has always been a part of past negotiations, with an international security force guarding East Jerusalem.

The right of return, and the number, has alway been one of the main sticking points.

“I think there is something to say about have 250% more weapons than needed but only 25% of the needed food. Should not the same smuggling routes that are bringing weapons to the region be just as if not more focused on bringing medicine and food to the region, if those things are truly needed?”
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I’ll answer with a question. Should there be a need to smuggle food, and building materials? Is it not easier to smuggle in a few weapons than it is to smuggle in enough food and materials for 1.4 million people? One can argue that cement can be used for military purposes, but after Israel destroys homes, it can be argued that it can be used for humanitarian purposes.
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Now I expect you to argue that food is used to feed Hamas .

Why not stop all the nonsense about “disproportionate force”, “peace activists”, and the like and cut to the chase: The Arab-Israeli situation is just the latest historical iteration of the vicious and ceaseless virus of anti-Semitism. It is the crusades, pogroms, ghettos, and Nazis in modern garb.

This time, however, rather than forthrightly naming those they loathe, these so-called “peace activists” and their allies claim their ire is directed at a state. It just so happens to be the only Jewish state, and it just so happens that these “peace activists” have not a negative word to say about the truly despicable regimes that populate this earth. If these “peace activists” really cared about the “suffering” Gazans, they would have accepted Israel’s offer to proceed with their delivery through appropriate channels. They refused because they don’t give a rat’s ass about the Arabs in Gaza; their goal was to fire one more shot in the propaganda war against the Jewish state. If these “peace activists” really cared about the Arabs of Gaza, they would turn their ire upon Hamas, whose thousands of rockets precipitated the blockade. Where were the “peace activists” when Jewish children crouched in basements in Sderot on a daily basis, never knowing when the next missile would fall upon their school or home?

I am frankly sick of hearing these anti-Semitic vermin attempting to hide their real motives behind the feigned protest that they are simply exercising their right to criticize the politics of a nation as they would any other. Do you think these creeps would be outraged if a Mexican vehicle declared it would openly violate US border control laws and was stopped by US authorities? Do you think they would crawl from beneath their rocks to protest if US law enforcement officers injured or killed the occupants of that vehicle when they attacked and fired upon those officers? No, such an incident would barely register a blip on the international news scene. But it makes all the difference in the world when it is the Jews who have the audacity to defend themselves; then the venom of the anti-Semites is unleashed—then the “camel’s back” is broken.

So, Mr. Klein, stop kidding yourself. Nothing Israel does or refrains from doing – short of national suicide (at which time, undoubtedly, beautiful memorials will be built) – will ever appease the anti-Semites of this world.

By “not attacking” I hope you really mean “not taking over command of the 6 flotillas with as little force possible so to divert the ships from the blockade.”

The blockade of Gaza is illegal under the Geneva Convention. Joe Klein bought and paid for by Israel lobby? Joe’s says it’s ok to violate international law because of how Hamas took power. Yea Joe, punish the people. Israel’s blockade is ILLEGAL Joe.

megatronrises-You have said what you have to say. And I have read all you have to say. Now no amount of your utter bulls*it in the guise of PR is going to mitigate the fact that Israel attack that ship and killed 10 people. You are the perfect reptile the Israelis deploy on all the networks in the US to pretend whatever action they just did should be acceptable to the American people no matter how disgusting it happens to appear. So spare me.

Daniel, seriously? You think the solution lies in disarming Palistine? I would hate to see Isreal’s behavior if that were to ever happen, The Isrealis don’t want peace, they want land and they want the Palistinians gone from the area. Some Middle Eastern leaders have been vocal about wanting Isreal wiped off the map; well if they thought they could get away with it, Isreal would wipe the Palistinians off the map.

Neither group is innocent here. And lets not forget how Hamas managed to gain power. Gaza was encouraged to hold elections a few years ago–encouraged by Bush. I’m not saying its his fault, but imagine his surprise when the man he thought would win lost. Just another mess Obama has to clean up, like the man doesn’t have enough on his plate dealing with 2 wars, a hurting economy, the threat of terrorism and government regulators who apparently have forgotten (or never learned) how to do their jobs.

How about this?
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Bibi cuts short his trip, cancels his visit with Obama, because of this incident, as if he had nothing to do with it. Attack a flotilla of civilian ships in International waters carrying food stuff and building supplies.
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Don’t suppose this was manufactured in anyway for Israel to express it’s dissatisfaction with US policy?
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Crazy I know, but so is that part of the world.

I hope you realize that your question didn’t actually address my question. I also don’t know why you’d expect me to say that the food would go straight to Hamas.
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Regardless, your question appears to validate mine.
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“Should there be a need to smuggle food, and building materials? Is it not easier to smuggle in a few weapons than it is to smuggle in enough food and materials for 1.4 million people?”
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On the flip-side, shouldn’t it be even easier, more productive, and constructive to sneak in food and building materials for a few people than weapons for a few people, let alone 1.4 million people?
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My point is, if food is needed, why are weapons being smuggled in? If building materials are needed, why are weapons being smuggled in? It surprises me that you who fault Israel (and don’t take this to mean I don’t believe Israel has fault and blame to bear – because I do) for using force, will defend the smuggling of weapons into Gaza. Unlike cement, weapons can be used for only one purpose – violence, and smuggling weapons into the area only undermines the claim that additional food and medicine are necessary for the populace.
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Now back to my original, and still unanswered question: Should not the same smuggling routes that are bringing weapons to the region be just as if not more focused on bringing medicine and food to the region, if those things are truly needed?

If Mexico had lobbed 8,000 missiles into San Diego, what would you want the U.S. to do, give back Arizona and New Mexico and Texas?
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Gaza is not at all equivalent to Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas are clearly part of the US. Gaza is not part of Israel.
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If you want a closer example, then it would be as if the mayor of Tijuana had a horde of drug smugglers that were firing rockets into San Diego and kidnapping US border patrol agents. In response, the US blockaded the city of Tijuana, seized control of all land and sea routes, destroyed the city’s airport and closed it’s air space, built a giant concrete wall surrounding the city leaving only one transit point open, and reserved exclusive veto power over all people and resources crossing city limits. Then, as a condition for ending the blockade, the citizens of Tijuana, who have no weapons at all, must overthrow the mayor and his horde of drug smugglers with assault rifles and rocket launchers. If they can’t manage to do this, then the blockade continues indefinitely. This is much closer to Gaza…Not so easy to call all the citizens of Tijuana drug smuggling terrorists now is it?

Oh No! An imprisoned people using boats and supplies to make a political statement. God how terrible of them!
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As if they didn’t have the right.

@ 1.5:
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Joe actually calls Israeli actions illegal 90% of the time. I find it kind of funny that you think he validate things found illegal by international law. Most conservative commentators call him a self-hating Jew and anti-Israel for pointing out the illegality of Israeli actions.
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@ 1.6:
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Thanks for calling me a reptile. I really enjoyed it: “You are the perfect reptile the Israelis deploy on all the networks in the US to pretend whatever action they just did should be acceptable to the American people no matter how disgusting it happens to appear. So spare me.”
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This is probably the first instance in which I’ve defended Israel on this blog. And I suddenly become a reptile. I don’t think Israel is right per se, but it’s definitely getting the short end of the stick.

There is a serious problem with your partisan propaganda mister Klein!

«Hamas was not content with merely being elected in Gaza. It staged a bloody coup against the Palestinian Authority and created, in effect, a dictatorship in Gaza.»

Many accounts (e.g. Newsweek) report that episode the other way around: Fatah backed by the US tried to oust the -democratically- elected government of Hamas using force: stupidly they were harshly defeated.
Of course you won’t remind us that just after the elections the Israel military has “arrested” something like 40 elected officials from the Hamas, that won’t fit in your propaganda.

«Second of all and of course: Hamas is as responsible for the conditions in Gaza as the North Koreans are for the conditions in North Korea. All it has to do is release Shalit and negotiations for the lifting of the blockade could begin and would move quickly.»

What a fallacy, Israel is blockading Gaza and let pass less than 1/5 of what is needed by the population according to the UN, the release of a single soldier -Shalit- has nothing to do with that, unless you are an propagandist desperate for an argument.

«there is no blockade on food or medicine. There is no starvation in Gaza.»

Oh my god, i suggest you to read the numerous reports made by the UN according to that: you are completely delusional.

What a shame.

Agreed!

Joe, thank you for your balanced perspective. It’s an increasingly rare find in a blogosphere dominated by one-sided views and extremist rants by commentators.

I do, however, believe this was a trap set for Israel. Not a military trap, since the flotilla organizers knew they couldn’t possibly take on the Israeli naval forces militarily, but a strategic trap, designed to generate the worst possible P.R. for Israel. And Israel, continuing their recent track record of incomprehensibly obtuse moves, walked right into it.

The Israeli government is like a driver with right of way at an intersection. Yes, they have the “right” to drive through, but they’re trying to go while the drivers who are supposed to yield are blasting through. As every good driver knows, don’t be “right”, be safe.

What is clear, though, is that the flotilla’s purpose was never about helping the Palestinians in Gaza. If they really wanted to transfer the goods they were delivering to Gaza, there were far more direct avenues to accomplish this. No, at best this was a statement to demonstrate to the world the folly of Israel’s blockade of Gaza – not an unacceptable goal by itself. Israel’s wisest response would have been to allow it to pass uncontested, as it did on the previous 5 occasions these sort of flotillas tried this. (Does anybody remember those? Didn’t think so.)

However, it is hard to consider those on board the lead ship of the flotilla, where the clashes took place, as peace loving individuals. As seen the (hopefully) attached video, these activists are not helpless victims trying to defend themselves, but a bloodthirsty mob hellbent on forcing the pummeled soldiers to resort to live fire. This is exactly the same mentality as Hezbollah and Hamas firing rockets from behind civilian cover, goading Israel into returning fire and killing innocent civilians. And once again, Israel walks straight into the trap and plays into their hands.

Two more points: It seems that Mairead Corrigan Maguire, the 1976 Nobel Peace Prize winner, and the Holocaust survivor who had originally been part of the flotilla, did not continue onboard the ship when it sailed from Cyprus. I wonder whether the delay in embarking from Cyprus stemmed from disagreement over the tactics planned during the inevitable confrontation, and whether the prominent members left because they did not want to associate themselves with the intended level of violence.

Lastly, Turkey is making a big show of outrage over the incident, with the clashes taking place on a Turkish-flagged ship and many of the casualties reportedly Turks. However, the Turkish government’s hands are not clean here, as they actively promoted and assisted in planning this flotilla, fully knowing that in so doing, they were boosting Hamas’s position and undermining their (supposed and now very possibly-former) ally Israel. While Israel shares plenty of blame for the deterioration of relations between the two countries, Turkey is being entirely disingenuous by claiming the upper hand here.

As I suspected, video didn’t embed. Here’s the link:

Should not the same smuggling routes that are bringing weapons to the region be just as if not more focused on bringing medicine and food to the region, if those things are truly needed?
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They are being used for food and supplies. How do you think the citizens of Gaza get what they need if Israel doesn’t allow enough through? Also, most of the tunnels are under the Egyptian border, and Egypt doesn’t want to aggressively shut them down because they know resources get smuggled in via the tunnels. The problem is that Hamas also uses the tunnels to smuggle weapons.
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The innocent civilians of Gaza are the victims here. Not Israel, and not Hamas. Israel would love to keep playing this game while they land grab in the West Bank. Hamas would love to keep using the impoverished Gazans as propaganda. Neither side has an incentive to end this blockade. This is why the international community must leverage the entirety of it’s power to bring an end to this conflict. The status quo is simply unacceptable.

Well back to my original question. If the blockade is so successful why are weapons getting in?
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I also would like to know why cement is a banned item. For a few years now I have seen Israel go in and demolish homes and structures, as it turns out not so selectively.
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Sorry the blockade is not for self defense, it goes further than that. Just like the over reaction at sea, self defense, not really.

I would mention that you cannot underestimate the symbolic power of Gilad Shalit.
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In the past, exchanges have been made where 10 or so Israeli soldiers are traded for a hundred Palestinian captives. Israel really values the “no man left behind” mantra.
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Releasing Shalit would be a great bargaining chip, promoting the atmosphere of cooperation that would allow negotiations regarding removal of the blockade to take place.
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As far as your other points, well, let’s just agree to disagree.

“This is probably the first instance in which I’ve defended Israel on this blog. And I suddenly become a reptile. I don’t think Israel is right per se, but it’s definitely getting the short end of the stick.
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You full of it. Is that nicer.l But here is why I call you a reptile in the first place. Because every single thing you have said on this blog in this short time. Every single fu#king I have heard before. Usually by some flak for the Israeli lobby. All the way down to the “I’m not saying this is totally right” bull crap. Of course you do. or you point out that they are totally wrong.
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But this is why I’m pissed. Israel is playing with the sons and daughters of other nations when they take reckless actions like this. So when they are wrong. I’m have no reservations about pointing that fact out.

Why are weapons getting in? Perhaps because Hamas wants to continue a campaign of violence.
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I never said the blockade was 100% effective, but smuggling in weapons instead of food is counterproductive.
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That cement is not allowed is something I disagree with. I don’t like that people cannot rebuild their homes. I very much despise it. Israel’s vice-grip on the area and Hamas’ violent tendencies aside, people should not be unable to rebuild where their place of residence is decimated.
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Now that I have answered your question, how about answering mine?

The flotilla was perfectly within the rights of the people to do
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Civilian in nature, bringing banned items such as building materials, which going through” improper” Israeli channels would not be allowed.
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Were they challenging Israeli authority. absolutely. Does Israel really have that Authority? no.

I’m not sure that it would be the best idea to suggest to Hamas that they should lower the ratio of captives for exchange – their solution might be to grab a few more soldiers. Their reputation is already lower than mud so there wouldn’t be much of a downside for them. They’ve demonstrated that they see the typically overreactive Israeli response to such actions as positive, politically – however many of their fellow citizens it ends up killing.

It is in Hamas’ interest for Israel to continue to act in this irrational way. There have been comments that some in the west are trying to de-legitimise Israel. Regrettably the current Israeli government is managing this just fine by their own sweet selves.

One thing we learned in Ireland is that ultimately you have to sit down and talk with the guy you are fighting. Calling him a terrorist might make you feel better, but it doesn’t solve the problem.

Finally, please don’t depress me by suggesting that the IDF attacked the flotilla outside Israeli territorial waters in a non-surprise raid (though you are no doubt right). Has anyone in the Israeli security services still got a grip on basic PR?

I have very little empathy for the Palestinians. I still clearly remember watching the post 9/11 celebrations by the people of Palestine when the twin towers in NYC collapsed. Thousands of innocent lives were lost by terrorism and the Palestinians were cheering and dancing in the streets. Sorry, but the empathy bridge was burned long ago.

Look I hear you. But a blockade that is ineffective, not stopping weapons from getting in, but allowing Hamas a propaganda tool is, in short, extremely foolish.
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Again I have to ask what is the purpose of the blockade?

The reasons weapons are getting in is that they are considerably more compact then food, you can easily smuggle in enough guns and ammunition to arm ten people but the total weight of food required to feed them represents a much bigger package. This is even more true for a building material such as cement, They would essentially be carrying in entire neighborhoods one bag at a time, that could take a while IMHO.

But isn’t that the problem? When Israel is wrong, it seems that Israel alone is wrong. Especially in this case, when to all appearances they were trying to as peacefully a possible to divert the ships after the activists refused Israeli inspection. When to all appearances, there is no place for large stashes of bats, slingshots and other weapons on a peaceful convoy. When all along it looks like the activists were planning to get confrontational.
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Speaking of sons and daughters, who do you think composes the Israeli army? Volunteers? No. All youth are required by law to serve in the army. Those are Israel’s sons and daughters.
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I call things like I see them. On this very blog (not this post, obviously), I’ve condemned Israel for announcing new settlements, for snubbing Biden, and otherwise for being recalcitrant throughout the latest bout of peace attempts with the West Bank. At a time when the West Bank is finally getting their act together, it’s a real shame that Israel is being uncooperative. And not to mention the oppression in Gaza – do you really think I don’t want those people to have their rights as human beings? They’re human beings! Not animals, and yet they are treated that way. Regardless of how “justified” it may or may not be, doesn’t mean I support it.
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However, when you have activists coming along and baiting Israeli soldiers to draw them into a confrontation that will of course shed bad light on Israel and Israel alone, I’m not going to stand by and allow all the fault to be laid on Israel. Just not going to happen. So call me names if you like, and use expletives to describe my point of view, but it only strengthens my resolve on this one.

Oh My! As if you ever had any empathy with them to begin with.
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I think you need to get over the fact that people who live in a prison, for no just reason, supported by the US will not feel much empathy with our situation.

danielatlanta: you make the same mistake a string of Israeli and Palestinian apologists: you select those against whom you are outraged. On the Palestinian side one can find dozens of people who use inflammatory rhetoric and guns against Jews. In the present Netanyahu government you can find quite a few unappetising figures and a string of political parties who do not want any negotiations to succeed. They want the land confiscated and the Palestinians out. Jerusalem???

Until each side accepts the fact that they have strong internal opposition to any settlement between the parties we are going to see this song and dance routine continue.

And the US is caught in this hapless fix. If you want to see proof of this just have a member of Congress introduce a statement of support for Israel. The stampede to vote for this resolution will will be led by both sides’ leadership.

It seems Michael Fury’s posts have been deleted. Time for celebration!

The point of the blockade was to put an economic pincer on the Palestinians after Israel got fed up with the thousands of rocket strikes… methinks.
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Wish they had gone about it another way, though. Terrible consequences – PR wise & humanitarian wise.

Thanks for the video!

“But isn’t that the problem? When Israel is wrong, it seems that Israel alone is wrong.”
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No that’s not a problem in this case. Israel alone is wrong. They should also say so.
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Especially in this case, when to all appearances they were trying to as peacefully a possible to divert the ships after the activists refused Israeli inspection.
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A PR agency for Israel could not have said this better. And its very hard to take you seriously. Unless you work for he PR agency.
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When to all appearances, there is no place for large stashes of bats, slingshots and other weapons on a peaceful convoy. When all along it looks like the activists were planning to get confrontational.
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I have not idea what you talking about it here. You actually think there are people out there wanting to take on a Israeli warship with bats?
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Speaking of sons and daughters, who do you think composes the Israeli army? Volunteers? No. All youth are required by law to serve in the army. Those are Israel’s sons and daughters.
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Finally, Israel is free to expend the lives of their own sons and daughters anyway that country sees fit. However, not my son or daughter by drawing American into some bullsh*t they could have avoided.

Yes I agree, and I think it is the point that the US has been trying to make of late, but Israel will not listen.

Godwin’s Law proved true again!

And under the Law @davidsimantob you are deemed to have lost the argument

Just like all those civil rights marchers in the 60′s were clearly provoking the police!
/snark

Yes, Israel alone is wrong for being attacked by metal pipes. See the video in post #22.

I feel almost dirty dignifying this with a response, but have you thought about why people might want to celebrate America’s humiliation? And don’t give me any “they hate our freedom” b*llsh*t, think about that question honestly, if you have the capacity.

Also, I don’t remember mention of an Israeli warship as being part of the confrontation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
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That’s hilarious!

“In truth, the one thing that might deter Netanyahu from his disastrous course might be if responsible American Jewish leaders quietly sent the message to Bibi that enough was enough…”
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In truth, the one thing that might deter every Israeli government from it’s disastrous course might be if responsible American political leaders stopped providing the $billions of American taxpayer dollars and slavish support of Israeli barbarism in the UN that allows Israeli lawlessness to continue. It won’t wash the ocean of Palestinian blood from our own hands but it would be the right thing to do.

“…I ask myself, what would I want my country to do if Cuba was sponsoring a flotilla of boats in support of al Qaeda that was headed to Miami?”
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How many Al Qada groups contain Jewish Holocaust survivors? How many Al Qada groups contain Nobel Peace Prize winners? How may Al Qada groups are sponsored by citizens of a country which recognized Israel.
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“Or, if I were English, what would I do if Ireland was sponsoring a flotilla of boats supporting Sein Fein that was about ready to head up the Thames?”
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Sein Fein are POLITICIANS. They have allied with the now disarmed provincual IRA but the worst a politician can do is TALK YOU TO DEATH.
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The Nobel Prize winner, as it happens,, Mairead Corrigan-Maguire made her name and career CONDEMNING THE IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY!
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So, be fair and write the truth Daniel:
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“I ask myself, what would I want my country to do if CANADA was sponsoring a flotilla of boats in support of GITMO PRISONERS that was headed to CUBA?”
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I say Canada since the all draftee Turkish Army has joint exercises with Israel just as the US and Canada do.
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I say Gitmo prisoners since it is CONTROVERSIAL even within the US what to do about the Gitmo prisones as it is controversial within Israel what to do about Hamas.
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Now, with that HONEST comparison, you have NO CHOICE but to condemn these actions of a right wing government which has lost touch with reality.
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The Irony is this: the Nazis never said that they were bullies. They said (OBVIOUSLY A LIE – I AM NOT DEFENDING THEM) that they were DEFENDING THEMSELVES against Jews, gypsies and gays. Now, with a kill ratio of 150 to 1, Israel says it is “defending” itself from two writers (one Jewish and one anti-terrorist Irish) and peace lovers by jumping on board and KILLING PEOPLE.

I think from practical point of view that is the most urgent question (everything else is hype): what will Obama Admin do to the UN resolution condemning Israeli actions?

So the question I have and experts like Joe and many commentators can answer is – if Obama were to literally take on the ultra-conservative Jewish lobby in America; how many House / Senate seats are we talking here in terms of losing to GOP? What are the best case and worst case scenarios here? As far as I understand Tea Party is not very enthusiastic towards Israel and hence that can work as visceral intramural fight in GOP. Or is it that within Democratic Party we are going to see a kind of vertical split where leaders like Finestein, Pelosi, Schumer and many other Jewish supporters are going to decisively go away from Obama?

At what point, Obama wants to stop this non-sense of pandering to Jewish community while Israeli Right is on the path to more destruction and more Middle East Chaos? At what point Obama will regard this as the ‘call for Leadership’ and take on the senseless faction of Jewish American lobby (possibly the majority of that lobby)? Will he be ready to be a ‘single term’ President for that sake (as if there is lot going on today for him to long for another term!)?

This is important because at this point it is clear that negotiated peace as if to continue where Bill Clinton left, is not going to work. Things have changed dramatically by now. When Bill Clinton was negotiating, America with Nasdaq at 5K was on the top of the world, it was the sole power, China was yet to be the world’s lender, Euro was shining, 9/11 was yet to happen and Israel did not have extreme factions ruling the country. Essentially that has been the high water mark of ‘negotiated peace path’ led by America.

Today, there is no chance in the world that any America led approach is going to work unless President Obama takes some decisive long term policy decisions – meaning clearer shift away from radical Israeli Politics.

Otherwise tell us how this ‘muddle through/ schmooze Israel’ strategy is going to either solve any problem or give America any edge in today’s world.

“…the 6th ship had concealed handguns and attacked the IDF, when they attempted to board the ship, and escort it.”
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No it didn’t.
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We have links to two articles where THE IDF says that the only guns on board were TAKEN FROM COMMANDOS and NOT ONE GUN was being smuggled in.
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Vrajavala, you are doing the typical wingnut thing on this blog – inventing facts when the truth contradicts your opinion.
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If the IDF says there were no guns on board and they, obviously would be bias towards making these people seem more dangerous than they were, not less, then I can safely say that there was nothing half as dangerous as a supersoaker on board. (It’s hot today in New York – if I had warning, I wouldn’t mind a supersoaker right now.)

davidsimantob,
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“What would the Allies have done if boatloads of supplies were heading to help the Axis in WWII?”
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Flaws:
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1) You are implying military aid.
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2) If you went back 20 years and the World War One Germans had to deal with AN AMERICAN bringing tens of thousands of pounds of food to Belgium:
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“The Commission for Relief in Belgium was established during the World War I under the chairmanship of Herbert Hoover, for the purpose of providing food relief to war torn Belgium . The CRB operated entirely with voluntary efforts and was able to feed 11,000,000 Belgians between 1914 and 1919 by raising the necessary money, obtaining voluntary contributions of food, shipping the food past the German submarine blockades and army occupied areas, and controlling the food distribution in Belgium.
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The CRB shipped 697,116,000 pounds of flour to Belgium and evidence indicates that sugar and grains were also sent. The flour was packaged in cotton bags by American mills. The movement of these bags throughout Belgium was carefully controlled by the CRB since cotton was in great demand for the manufacture of German ammunition and also because the CRB feared that the flour sacks would be taken out of Belgium , refilled with inferior flour, and resold as relief flour. As a result, the empty flour sacks were carefully accounted for and distributed to professional schools, sewing workrooms, convents, and individual artists. ”
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http://hoover.archives.gov/exhibits/collections/flour%20sacks/index.html
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How about this:
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What becomes of somebody who gave food to a trapped wartime country: they become President of the United States.
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(Arguably one of the worst presidents ever, but, he even beat Jimmy Carter for presidents contributing and participating in charity.)
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A huge majority of Palestinians are just plain trapped.
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If your government consists of dangerous radicals and an enemy power keeps on coming in with a kill ratio of 150 to one every time your government or private terrorist groups neither you nor your government condone fire rockets, what do you do?
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1) Support the foreign power who overreacts to everything and get yourself shot by your local government of thugs?
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2) Speak about the foreign government which comes in and overreacts very dramatically to everything and tolerate your oppressive government?
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The answer is, overwhelmingly #2. It is far easier to find all of the moral flaws of your adversary than of your own government and the group you identify yourself with, it is far safer to condemn people who are speaking a different language and do not live in your community and, having a foreign government come in and bulldoze down your house or your neighbor’s house is ,even more disturbing than having your own government do so.
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So, there is plenty of chatter about pushing Israel into the ocean.
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I’ll put it this way, I was the second of four children. If I had a dollar for every time my mother said “I am going to kill you” to one of us I would have had enough to pay four years of college tuition without their help. And guess what? All four of us are alive!
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Wait… weren’t there seven kids to start with in my family?
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(I’m kidding! Child abuse was just one of my mother’s – like most mother’s momentary fantasy, not a reality – just like Israel going into an ocean, whatever that supposed to mean.)

No kidding? What’d he say?

First of all: “Hamas is as responsible for the conditions in Gaza as the North Koreans are for the conditions in North Korea.” I really don’t even know how to dignify this sentence with a comment, because the comparison is…really outstanding. As far as I am concerned, Israelis are to blame for conditions in Gaza since they have held it under ILLEGAL OCCUPATION for decades.
And second of all: “Finally, there is no blockade on food or medicine. There is no starvation in Gaza.” How do you know that? Have you ever researched or seen videos or documentaries or reports that weren’t a product of American press? Because if you had, and if you were more open minded, you would have seen the way Palestinians are treated. For Christ’s sake, just look at the walls surrounding them! It’s like they’re living in an enormous prison.

“I do, however, believe this was a trap set for Israel.”
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As much as the freedom riders going to the Southern States during the Civil Rights movement was a “trap” for dramatically overreacting and unjust Southern police officers.
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No, I am not saying that OTHER Palestinian actions were like the civil rights movement. JUST THIS ONE.
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As far as I am concerned, the Palestinian teenagers who throw rocks at Israeli soldiers are punks who should face the same kind of charges an American throwing rocks at an American cop would get.
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This was different.
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Also, even with the video, we all know about Israeli special forces: if you do not outnumber then ten to one even when armed you will be killed. Unarmed when outnumbering them 50 to one, this is the only way to make sure that you do not get slaughtered promptly.
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If I came repelling down from a helicopter onto your land or, in theory, your ship (assuming I could do that without falling and breaking my own a$$) you’d greet me with stick and anything else you could find, I am sure.
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Israel shot itself in the foot with a ICBM this time.

Joe, the International Committee of the Red Cross has just been on TV contradicting your claim that there are not shortages of essential items such as medicine. Recent UN reports go much further about the shortages. If your information source is the Israeli government or proxies thereof, you need to dig deeper. Your comment about Shalit – he is a soldier – how many civilian and political prisoners does Israel hold without habeas corpus? To be practical, yes, absolutely do a nice trade: 100 Palestinians for Shalit – the ratio always seems to reflect that many Israeli’s believe that their lives are worth a multiple of a Palestinian’s life. I can’t condone Hamas actions – but desperate people do desperate things. Violence against civilians is criminal – that goes for all perpetrators of attacks against innocent people. What about the 800 plus women and children in Gaza killed by Israel in the 2008 invasion – Israel had 13 casualties. Disproportionate?

The Palestinian plight has been ignored for a very long time by those who could change the fate of millions of innocent people, and engender some renewed faith among hundreds of millions, in America’s sense of fairness, and often stated values-based policies, but instead choose to act for personal political and financial gain.

How long will Israel be able to flout UN resolutions and international law without unified international condemnation and severe economic repercussions such as South Africa faced for their version of apartheid? Why should US soldiers in the field and US citizens in general be subject to further hatred because certain US politicians unconditionally support a country that acts in such an antagonistic fashion and contempt for the victims of the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land? What if Israel were called Bogoland, populated by sun-worshipers, but conducted themselves as the Israelis have done? What would the world have done?

BTW before the anti-semite accusations begin, I hold dear my friendships with Jews and gentiles alike…

“…Israel alone is wrong for being attacked by metal pipes.”
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They’re lucky. We shoot pirates with high-powered rifles.
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http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/14/world/fg-pirates14

well said, I totally agree.

“I still clearly remember watching the post 9/11 celebrations by the people of Palestine when the twin towers in NYC collapsed.”
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“The Palestinian National Authority… claimed such celebrations were not representative of the sentiments of the Palestinian people, and the Information Minister Yasser Abed Rabbo said the PNA would not allow “a few kids” to “smear the real face of the Palestinians”"
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_the_September_11_attacks#Palestinian_celebrations
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I don’t like being associated with the 48% of Americans who voted for GWB. So, a carefully picked footage of Palestinians who’s behavior was in outrageously bad taste should not shape your views of all members of that society.
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If an immigrant or a tourist asked me about GWB during his regime I was red faced embarrassed to call him our “president”. So, not knowing who thought what in Palestine on 9/11, I would never consider starving their women, children, seniors and other non-combatants to death or putting them in harm’s way of being starved as remotely acceptable.

sevenoaks07, the terrorists do what they do because it gets them what they want. When the world stops giving in to their demands or tolerating their bad behavior and illogical arguments, they will stop. If not, then the only recourse is to use force to pound them into submission. Those who haven’t learned that lesson from history are part of the problem, not the solution, and lives will be lost because of their folly.

danielatlanta: When my grandfather talked about the Irgun in Palestine he called them terrorists. There was a time that term was applied to Jewish fighters struggling to carve out an existence in Palestine. How quickly we forget.

Nothing worth worrying about. I hope he’s gone.

israelis were the ones who started with terrorism in palestine, and they obviously accomplished what they wanted with the aid of terrorists among their ranks. but, as you said, that was quickly forgotten.

What if this, what about that….hyperbole.

Facts
An unarmed peace convoy was attacked in international waters. Passengers onboard tried to stop an illegal boarding. 19 killed 60+ injured. They were attempting to supply a widely perceived-to-be-oppressed people with humanitarian aid.

Reaction Overview
Turkey is pissed.
Europe is pissed.
USA is um,er, still trying to work out the facts of the matter.
Israel says their all terrorists.

So if my dimwitted understanding of this can be summarised, Israel appears to be saying “We do what we want because we can. Its a threat because we say so. Its provocative because we say so. Its terrorism because we say so. Its just the way it is, somethings never change (apologies to Messr Hornsby) because we say so.

Sounds so – well – totalitarian to me . . . . . . . .

That was amazing – your reply to my post happened 12 minutes before I posted – now I am beginning to worry, or believe in time travel, not sure which……

When they delete a comment they apparently disrupt the space-time continuum. They got mad skills

Haum, a site where mostly sensible comments are made. Feels odd, since cnn had nearly made me to loose all faith.

Anyway, I would like to share my view of this story after having seen and read a bit about it.

From what I understand this boat, that I think was carrying virtually only humanitarian goods because we would have heard otherwise by now, was told by Israeli forces that they weren’t allowed to enter the area they desired due to the proclaimed authority of those forces.

The Israelis offered alternative routes to their desired destination once the ship’s goods had been throughly checked (a video on youtube showed an Israeli shouting this to the boat trough a speaker).

But I think this is the crucial point: the crew of the ship with the humanitarian goods did not believe this. They were convinced that if they allowed this to happen then they would never be allowed to deliver the goods to Gaza. Perhaps they felt the bureaucracy of the Israeli inspections and interrogations would greatly delay their efforts, or that they would come to a complete halt once the Israeli personnel had found the slingshots and bats. To me it is unclear if those tools were brought solely to beat the life of Israelis. I for one would definitely bring some means of self defence no matter what seas I sailed.

So in a daring but all the same foolish attempt to reach their goal, they showed defiance by continuing their route.

Having been faced with defiance, the Israelis had to do the only thing that they could in order to underline their authority, falling short of blowing the ship up, namely to board it.

Their intentions were probably peaceful but full of determination, namely to stop the boat and respond to force with force.

One side wants to stop the ship, the other wants to keep it going, both sides are willing to use force; no surprises there.

The crew on the other hand should have given up by now. Attacking armed men and not expecting them to draw their weapons is not a sign of high sense of self preservation.

Would the crew be up to bad stuff if they had entered Gaza? I don’t think so. Had their goods been allowed to enter Gaza by alternative routes within reasonable time if the crew had obeyed the Israeli forces? I don’t think so?

But that’s exactly what the crew should have done instead in my opinion; if they were convinced that their goods wouldn’t end up in Gaza had they surrendered, then they should have done exactly that and documented the Israeli’s alleged inefficiency to process humanitarian deliveries to Gaza.

That would have made for an interesting reportage that sensible people could have pondered, instead of a sad story of men (and women?) beating one another on a boat out on the sea…

//Arash

Ooops, there was some copy-paste error. What I intended to write was:

“Had their goods been allowed to enter Gaza by alternative routes within reasonable time if the crew had obeyed the Israeli forces? I don’t know.

“When they delete a comment they apparently disrupt the space-time continuum.”
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Cool!
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Can they bring us back in time to warn everybody about the Bush Administration so that Bush won’t be elected eleven years ago?
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I guess that’s one of those time paradox deals like stopping your parents from meeting or something.
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Damn!
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There are a few dozen things I would do differently if I could hit the rewind button for life.

Welcome to the Gulf of Tonkin.

When the world stops giving in to their demands or tolerating their bad behavior and illogical arguments, they will stop. If not, then the only recourse is to use force to pound them into submission.

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Well, Keep on pounding.. thats what Israel did for the last 60 years (with assistance from people like you).
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Well, the pouding for the last 60 years has worked, hasn’t it? Israel is free to do whatever it wants for another 60 years.
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All we ask is that Israel stop doing it with the bills paid for, by American taxpayers and dead American soldiers.
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Illegal action related to illegal action resulting in more loss of life. How is this righteous? Please.
There is no excuse, no matter how intransigent some n Palestine/Gaza might be. You do not kill people to protect a corrupt religio-democracy or any other form of government that is not being physically assaulted by the people on the other side.
Israel has created a Sartrean world of no exit, no hope. This must stop.

Actually, it has worked. Israel has not been pushed into the sea.

Kabuki a-go-go–wake me in a few decades when this is resolved:

Remarks by Ambassador Alejandro Wolff, Deputy Permanent U.S. Representative to the United Nations, at an Emergency Session of the Security Council

May 31, 2010

AS DELIVERED

Thank you, Mr. President and thank you, Assistant Secretary-General Fernandez-Taranco.

The United States is deeply disturbed by the recent violence and regrets the tragic loss of life and injuries suffered among those involved in the incident last night aboard the Gaza-bound ships. We are working to ascertain the facts. We expect a credible and transparent investigation and strongly urge the Israeli government to investigate the incident fully.

As I stated in the Chamber in December 2008, when we were confronted by a similar situation, mechanisms exist for the transfer of humanitarian assistance to Gaza by member states and groups that want to do so. These non-provocative and non-confrontational mechanisms should be the ones used for the benefit of all those in Gaza. Direct delivery by sea is neither appropriate nor responsible, and certainly not effective, under the circumstances.

The United States remains deeply concerned by the suffering of civilians in Gaza, and the deterioration of the situation there, including the humanitarian and human rights situation. We continue to believe the situation is unsustainable and is not in the interests of any of those concerned. We will continue to engage the Israelis on a daily basis to expand the scope and type of goods allowed into Gaza to address the full range of the population’s humanitarian and recovery needs. Hamas’ interference with international assistance shipments and the work of nongovernmental organizations complicates efforts in Gaza. Its continued arms smuggling and commitment to terrorism undermines security and prosperity for Palestinians and Israelis alike.

We will continue to work closely with the Government of Israel and the Palestinian Authority, along with international NGOs and the UN, to provide adequate access for humanitarian goods, including reconstruction materials, through the border crossings, while bearing in mind the Government of Israel’s legitimate security concerns.

Ultimately, this incident underscores the need to move ahead quickly with negotiations that can lead to a comprehensive peace in the region. The only viable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is an agreement, negotiated between the parties, that ends the occupation that began in 1967 and fulfills the aspirations of both parties for independent homelands through two states for two peoples, Israel and an independent, contiguous, and viable state of Palestine, living side by side in peace and security. We call again on our international partners – both inside and outside this Council – to promote an atmosphere of cooperation between the parties and throughout the entire region.

Thank you, Mr. President.

Actually, it has worked. Israel has not been pushed into the sea.

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Okk.. so now that Israel is an “independent” Jewish state, can America cut off the $3 billion in borrowed money (i.e. money that we don’t have) that it donates year after year, to the Israeli military and the automatic veto power it exercises to stop sanctions from the international community?
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or would that make Obama an anti-semite?

“Can they bring us back in time to warn everybody about the Bush Administration so that Bush won’t be elected eleven years ago?”
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They could send just one of us back to lock Scalia in his hunting cabin for a few weeks. He looks like he could lose a few pounds anyway.

I’d say if we could go back to 1964 to bribe Academy Award voters–if they’d given Ron an Oscar for The Killers, what might have been?

Bets are on that most of the International peace activists on the flotilla have ties to terrorist organizations. Their interrogation will result in thousands of sleeper cells being uncovered and break the back of international terrorism. They should remain imprisoned until every drop of information is water boarded from their evil minds. This has been a Bonanza for anti-terrorism intelligence units.

Joe, first of all there is a typo in the article – you wrote “Gilan Shalit” instead of Gilad. No doubt the error is due to the haste with which you must have churned out this piece. Your haste is also evident in the way you fail to consider or acknowledge the fact that the “peace activists” attacked Israeli soldiers with knives, metal poles and chairs as soon as the soldiers landed on the boats (as there is footage available to show).

Israel repeatedly offered to transfer the aid to Gaza, provided the flotilla agreed to a preliminary security check. A measure any nation in the same position would have insisted on. These requests were refused.

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/investor-relations/

If something fishy weren’t going on on the ship where the incident occurred, how do you explain the 5 other ships being safely and peacefully maneuvered away from the blockade?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but Joe reported from the West Bank and Gaza quite a few times.
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Also, a very small portion of the barrier is concrete. It’s mostly fence. I know, I know, a barrier is a barrier, a wall is a wall, etc. But accuracy is important.

If something fishy weren’t going on on the ship where the incident occurred, how do you explain the 5 other ships being safely and peacefully maneuvered away from the blockade?

huh.. 10 unarmed people on a ship that was on international waters are DEAD. Now, how DO YOU explain that?
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Looks like Somalian pirates have some Israeli state sponsored competition.
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When you tear up and disregard international law, Dont come crying to us if some palestinian start blowing up buses again.

Kadima wasn’t willing to do so. It takes two to negotiate.

That’s what happens when you negotiate by blowing up little girls.

Also note Egypt is also part of the blockade.

No chance. Congress has moved decisively away from Obama on Israel and made it clear they will not allow him to cut aide.

Further, you vastly overstate the financial impact of the aide. At somewhere near $3B per annum it’s less than 1.5% of a fast growing Israel economy. As a financial issue it’s realtively insignificant. More important is access to technology.

“The Palestinian National Authority… claimed such celebrations were not representative of the sentiments of the Palestinian people, and the Information Minister Yasser Abed Rabbo said the PNA would not allow “a few kids” to “smear the real face of the Palestinians”"”

Not even a nice try Pat. Fox played the clips. They weren’t kids and they were overjoyed as was most of the Muislim world. Arafat quickly recognized the PR disaster and clamped down when he realized the celevrations were being filmed but we know.

Surprisingly strong statement supporting Israel. We’ll see if Joe is right that it costs him in the Muslim world.

Proportionality has nothing to do with the numbers killed on each side. Israel’s states goal was to end the rocket attacks and the infrastructure suporting them. If it took 1,000 hamas casualites to convince them to end the bombing that is a proportionate response. The number of Israeli casualties isn’t a factor. Nor is the number of Israeli casualties before the ‘war’ a factor. Liberals sometimes make the braindead argument ‘only’ a few jews were killed. In other words Palestnian ineptitude limits their criminality.

No it doesn’t.

oh please rdw56, Stop using the talking points and look at the reality:
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* Hamas has 2 wings – Political and Military.
* The military wing of Hamas ceased the sucide attacks in 2005, and renounced them in April 2006. That is 4 years since the last sucide attack.
* Hamas has renounced rocket attacks. The last ones were from splinter groups that have nothing to do with Hamas.
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By your definition, Nelson Mandela is a terrorist and ANC is a terrorist organization.

Hamas needs to release the Israeli soldier? WHY? Israel’s spent decades detaining Palestinians without benefit of trial or even counsel, going so far as to demolish the homes of these untried, unrepresented prisoners, yet Hamas is somehow inhumane or inferior because they’re holding A soldier?

Your bias is showing. Big time.

“If something fishy weren’t going on on the ship where the incident occurred, how do you explain the 5 other ships being safely and peacefully maneuvered away from the blockade?”
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Imagine that you are in the IDF.
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What would you do:
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1) Plant weapons on the boat to make you and your team look good and make it look like you were defending against terrorists when you were not.
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2) Tell the truth that there were no weapons on board except for the ones taken from the special forces team.
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3) Find weapons and hide them so that you, your crew and your entire country looks like horrible bullies.
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Since the IDF says that there were no weapons on board, then you can rule out that they did option #1.
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Since #3 is the last thing that they would do, you can rule out option #3.
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So, there was and never was anything “fishy” going on.
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I compared them to the Freedom riders.
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What would you think if you saw forty five year old footage of a white, Southern police chief saying, “If something fishy weren’t going on at the bus station where the incident occurred, how do you explain that Negros on the other buses sat in the Colored waiting room peacefully?”
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You would want to throw things at the screen!
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Let me ask you: with every incentive in the world to find them, why are you saying that the IDF are so blind that they did not find these weapons or would want to make the world angry at Israel by pretending that the weapons weren’t there?

“In other words Palestnian ineptitude limits their criminality.”
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Criminality? Criminality!
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If the Terrorists are, as I would, also, call them, criminals, then the IDF are the worst cops in the world since the Nazis.
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Imagine this; “Police kill 25 apprehending murder suspect. Police commissioner RWD56 says, ‘we want to stop murder at all costs’”.
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You, sir, would go from police commissioner to inmate in about four minutes.

Congrats to the Israelis for not putting up with those that aid and comfort their enemies. I wish we could deal with our “peace activists” by sending them to Israel for re-education.

I wonder what another country would have done if they were invaded. If something like this were to happen to the US, I wouldn’t be surprised if they would have torpedoed the ships (and rightfully so!). In the “aid” flotila, Israeli soldiers were carrying paint ball guns normally used for crowd suppression! Only after the “peace activists” attacked Israeli troops, brutally beaten, stabbed, and thrown off the ship did the Israeli army authorize live ammunition. i saw how the moment an Israeli soldier landed on a ship, four or more people started hitting him with metal poles, stabbing him, and in the end threw him off the ship. There are countless wounded, and one critically wounded Israeli soldiers. They were stabbed, hit, and beaten. Since when did a humanitarian aid ships start carrying weapons?

I also saw that reporter who said there was a baby onboard and nobody suspected violence. I just wonder where she had been the last few weeks when the Israeli government clearly stated it will board the ships and bring them to Ashdod Port. The Gaza strip is currently controlled by a terrorist organization called the “Hamas” bent on the genocide (killing all) of the Israeli people. Is it wrong for a country to protect its people? I don’t recall seeing anything on the news talking about Hamas’s random bombing of civilian population!

I think we can safely say that this whole “aid flotila” thing is a political stunt. if all they really wanted was to bring aid material to Gaza, they would have gone through political channels instead of trying to invade another country. I would also think that if they were really interested in bringing aid to Gaza, they would have brought less cameras and weapons and more medicine. All the aid material they brought is really an excuse for invading Israel and trying to hurt it’s image. The fact that the Israeli soldiers waited for 40 minutes until they started using live firearms is a sure sign of restraint. You should really watch on YouTube how the “innocent” peace activists are beating the Israeli soldiers as soon as they rappel to the bout. Also, the 5 boats that didn’t attack the Israeli soldiers didn’t have any casualties.

If i were to plan this operation, I would have either blown the ships engines (without damaging the ship or hurting it’s passengers) and towed it to Ashdod Port, or had snipers use dart rifles to sedate the passengers before boarding the boat. Either way would have avoided direct confrontation and causalities would have been avoided.

In conclusion, while i wouldn’t have planned the operation in any way similar way the IDF did, they are not the only ones to blame. Either side could have avoided direct confrontation and then we wouldn’t be in this mess.

I think we can safely say that this whole “aid flotila” thing is a political stunt. if all they really wanted was to bring aid material to Gaza, they would have gone through political channels instead of trying to invade another country

Invade another country with what? slingshots, plumbing material(pipes),chairs and A knife???? Are you clinically insane or just plain stupid?
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When you kill innocent people with an IED, it is terrorism. Do the same wearing a uniform, an F16 and laser guided bombs, you are a hero.

Joe:
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I didn’t expect you to reply, but thanks.
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As soon as I posted it, I realized my mistake in re Hamas. They did indeed take over from the PA in a violent overthrow and I should have amended it, but I was too tired and busy.
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I do look at both sides, but I can’t see imprisoning 1.4 million people in an open air prison as a solution to any problem.
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I think you claim that Israel is not blockading food and medicine might be very suspect, as I read over at BBC a few days ago a couple articles that allude to documents and/or individuals that participated in decisions made about the blockade. As with anything that has to do with Israel and some of it’s more questionable practices, things pop up here and there. A voice here, a noise there, a document, etc. Eventually, the truth, whatever it is, will come out.
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Further, I will take the UN’s word that when they say 25%, they mean 25% by their standards. I think maybe, you might have such an argument if you use Israeli standards, but then, given they have been rationalizing about their “settlements” for years and their reasons for occupying the West Bank, I’m not going to use Israeli standards, thank you.
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I looked for the BBC links but couldn’t find them. However, another reason I place your claim under suspicion is that here in the US, we do not get good unbiased coverage of the Israeli/Palestinian problem – which is why I recommended BBC.
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I think of all US individuals, you are probably the most balanced, but every statement I made other than the issue of Hamas is true.
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As a matter of fact, the fact that they took over, and have participated in some nasty strategies themselves (such as home demolitions, the destruction of that school, the killing of opponents), weakens any Israeli rationalization behind the blockade.
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It could be said that in a sense, the people of Gaza have two occupiers, one, who, originally elected as part of their own government, has visited equally draconian measures. On top of that, the second occupier, Israel, is punishing the first by punishing the people of Gaza, who somehow, have to figure out how to live through this.
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I know that the flotilla was also meant to damage Israel’s image, but considering that they are doing things that are making it easy for others to do makes it a more or less moot point.

megatronrises:
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Take a look at my reply to Joe Klein.
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Also, the issue of what to put through the tunnels is controlled by Hamas, and you will see in my comments to Joe Klein, I’m not a Hamas supporter, by any means.
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Two points:
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1. The were no weapons on board. It would have been better to just let those boats land, and offload their cargo. Their cargoes were loaded publicly, there were many who were involved in it.
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2. Weapons take up far less space than do commodities like cement. The tunnels are commercial enterprises, and aren’t extensive enough to accommodate bulk commodities like these.
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Neither of us know whether medical supplies go through the tunnels, but I would not be surprised if they did. It is entirely possible that they do, but being the tunnels don’t have much capacity, and no NGO is going to pay the tunnel operators to ship them in that way, it’s not a likely route for humanitarian aid anyway.

Dan,

I suggest you study a little history instead of listening to the propaganda of the past.

Israel is not fighting for survival. It has the most powerful army in that part of the world. It is at peace with most of its immediate neighbors. The country of Israel exercises control and domination over the Palestinian territory and has a pliant vassal in President Abbas of the Palestinian Authority, who spends most of his time fighting against Hamas than he does against his “enemy”, Israel.

The blockade of Gaza is an act of war. The problem is that this is not a strictly israeli blockade, it is supported by Egypt and the Palestinian Authority. Gaza has become the world’s largest prison camp. Even before the blockade, it was the most densely populated area in the world and the current shortage has made life there worse.

Rather than turning to the moderates, like the Palestinian Authority, more radical groups have developed in Gaza. It is not even Hamas who is firing at the Israelis, it is even more radical groups.

Now, Al Queda has a foothold in Gaza, where it did not have any existance before the blockade. Thanks, Israel and Egypt.

The right wing Israeli propaganda was that the Gazans got what they deserved for voting for Hamas. However, even President Bush acknowledged that a vote for Hamas was a vote against the corruption of the PLO during the Arafat years. As bad as Hamas may be, at least they provided honest government and good social services. I am not trying to excuse their terrorist activities, but even Ehud Barak, former Prime Minister of Israel and current Defense Minister once said, “If I were a Palestinian, I would be a terrorist.”

The fact there are very few terrorist activities from the West Bank and that the Palestinians finally have a prime minister who is backed by the United States AND THE ISRAELIS, speaks volumes of what the Palestinians are willing to accept.

The problem is the right wing of the Israeli government, to paraphrase a famous Israeli, “never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”

“At somewhere near $3B per annum it’s less than 1.5% of a fast growing Israel economy. As a financial issue it’s realtively insignificant. More important is access to technology”

What a lie, the real number is billions more; the “technology” is primarily military, some given, some stolen.

Israel is now completely controlled by a bunch of lunatic Zionist; who without our tax dollars couldn’t support themselves, They have nukes, cluster bombs, chemical weapons F-16s and we are subject to attack by terrorist because of our unblinking support.

Wake up America and see if you believe that all tis is in your best interest.

If not; tell your congressman that he had best sever his ties with AIPAC.

Eight out of ten people in this chat room would call me “kid” and I am 39 years old.
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The point is, this was a loud minority, like the Tea Party is the loud and obnoxious minority in the US.
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If you want to go after the word “kid” you must be a barber because you are very good at splitting hairs.

“Reeducation” is the euphemism the communists used.
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Retardomax, why don’t you just stick to English fascist websites where you’ll blend in rather than be thought of as a total a-hole.

No.
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Welcome to the Bay of Pigs…

I belive that going into a country without permission is considered “invading”.

i don’t undersand you 2nd paregraph. the Isrealis didn’t bomb the ships. i think i was pretty clear when explained what happened, maby you can tell me what you didn’t understand?

We’re in Limbo, guys. Where da numberz?

NO, it’s near $3B and less than1.5% of Israeli GDP. Not that it matters, Israel has the support of 80% of the Congress. Obama could not cut the aid if he wanted to. And he’s not ready to pay the political price. It simply doesn’t matter what the American left feels about Israel. They are far roo small a segment of the population.

The west really needs to understand why there is so much hate for Israel and attacks by Palestinians and Arab nations in the first place. It is the failure of the Palestinian’s refusal to recognise Israelis RACIST (!), apartheid policies, that the USA is pouring loads of US taxpayer’s cash in to fund, that is labelling Hamas as terrroists! Read: http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/General/Story2289.html

and
http://www.wrmea.com/us_aid_to_israel/index.htm

Absolutely shocking!!