Rand Paul’s Dilemma: Theory Vs. Practice

UPDATE: Thursday on the Laura Ingram show, Rand Paul responded to last night’s Rachel Maddow interview.

The libertarian approach, which heavily favors private rights over government rights, has always produced some interesting conversations. Most libertarians, for instance, don’t own a bong or watch extremely violent pornography, but Republican doctors like Ron Paul will defend your right to grow and smoke marijuana and avoid obscenity prosecutions for producing the most vile consensual smut. They see it as an issue of personal rights. Government should stay out of your lungs, they argue, stay out of your bedrooms, and stay out of your businesses.

Rand Paul, a child of the libertarian movement, is now following this line of thinking into a political buzzsaw. He argues that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 erred by forcing private businesses to desegregate lunch counters. He condemns racism, and says he supports most of the Act, which dealt with ending discrimination in government institutions, but holds firm on a theoretical point: Government should not tell private businesses how to behave. The most important piece of video today in the political world comes from Rachel Maddow’s show last night, in which Paul explains his view in some detail.

Obviously, this is not a mainstream view, even among conservatives or within the Republican Party, and however true it is to Paul’s governing philosophy, it is going to cost him. Indeed, in conversation with Maddow, Paul bemoans the coming soundbites that will no doubt misrepresent his views. As Ben Smith tweets, “Very, very easy to see the Bork-style ‘Rand Paul’s America’ ad, w/ sepia-toned ‘No Blacks, No Irish’ signs.” These attacks will paint Paul as a supporter of segregation and racism, even though no evidence has been presented suggesting that he is motivated by anything other than a libertarian governing philosophy, which is no more a racist philosophy than it is a pro-pot or pro-pornography philosophy.

It must also be said, however, that in practice, the libertarian approach is never absolute. Libertarians, for instance, generally defend pedophilia laws, for instance, and the existence of a military to defend against foreign threats. I am sure there are many self-described libertarians who would differ with Rand Paul on the lunch counter issue. They would interpret the experience of being denied food service at a lunch counter less as a free speech issue for the business, and more as an assault on the customer. Even strict libertarians will argue that government has a policing role to punish citizens when they attack each other.

One other thing to note. It is unfair, as a rule, to judge a son by the sins of his father, but it is worth noting here, given Rand Paul’s political and personal affinity with his dad, that Ron Paul has often stumbled in the past over issues of race. Back in 2007, I wrote a mostly favorable piece about the senior Paul for Salon, which noted the following:

In the Speaker’s Lobby, Paul describes the federal airline security system as an extra-constitutional affront to civil liberties, and thinks security should be handled by the private sector. Then he takes a rather un-presidential jab at the appearance of many TSA screeners, a workforce heavily populated by minorities and immigrants. “We quadrupled the TSA, you know, and hired more people who look more suspicious to me than most Americans who are getting checked,” he says. “Most of them are, well, you know, they just don’t look very American to me. If I’d have been looking, they look suspicious … I mean, a lot of them can’t even speak English, hardly. Not that I’m accusing them of anything, but it’s sort of ironic.”

This is not the first time Paul has veered into potentially insensitive territory. In 1992, a copy of his newsletter, the Ron Paul Survival Report, criticized the judicial system in Washington, D.C., before adding, “I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal.” Under a section headlined “Terrorist Update,” the following sentence ran, “If you have ever been robbed by a black teenaged male, you know how unbelievably fleet-footed they can be.”

These quotations became an issue during Paul’s 1996 campaign for Congress. During the campaign, he declined to distance himself from the statements. But in a 2001 interview with Texas Monthly, he said he had never written or approved those words for his own newsletter. He said he failed to disavow the words during the campaign on the advice of his political advisors. “They just weren’t my words,” he tells me. “They got in because I wasn’t always there. I didn’t have total control. And I would be on vacations and things got in there that shouldn’t have been.”

Related Topics: 2010, kentucky, libertarian, rachel maddow, rand paul, ron paul, 2012 Election
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  • nflfoghorn

    What does “looking American” mean?

  • nflfoghorn

    “If you have ever seen a sporting event featuring… black teenaged male[s], you know how unbelievably fleet-footed they can be.”
    .
    Fixed it for Ron ‘n Rand. Da Doo Ron Rand.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    As Ta Nehisi-Coates points out, Paul never actually does defend that view. He makes it pretty clear that he has it, but he always leans back on the verbal crutch of, “I oppose all institutional discrimination,” never forthrightly admitting that he opposes government action to prevent discrimination in private restaurants.
    -
    On top of the weasel factor (seriously, watch the interview), it’s impossible for me to see how the Paul principle that “federal government intervention into states’ rights is always bad in all times and contexts” arises from a dispassionate view of US history, rather than something esoteric at best, tribal at worst.

  • grape_crush

    These attacks will paint Paul as a supporter of segregation and racism, even though no evidence has been presented suggesting that he is motivated by anything other than a libertarian governing philosophy..

    Allowing for discriminatory practices is implicit sanction of those practices, no matter what the philosophical grounds are.

    Of course, Paul’s ideology allows not only for racism to flourish, but several other practices that we as a country find abhorrent…heroin use, sweatshops fueled by child labor, gender discrimination, fraud, and so on.

    The good news is that the ‘movement’ Paul is part of is finally being exposed to sunlight, and some real discussion will occur regarding the practical implications of Paul’s philosophy.

  • nflfoghorn

    I’m still waiting on him to identify the thief of our government.

  • http://twitter.com/michaelscherer Michael Scherer

    “Allowing for discriminatory practices is implicit sanction of those practices, no matter what the philosophical grounds are.”
    .
    To follow my examples above, does it then follow that one cannot be anti-drug and libertarian, or anti-pornography and libertarian?

  • playscape

    The Paul interview is fascinating and deserves a deeper analysis than the conclusion “Rand Paul is racist” (which he clearly is not). Rather than being in the minority (no pun intended), he is articulating the DeMint/Paul Ryan/Palin worldview which is usually cloaked in buzzwords such as “limited government”, “personal liberty” and “government takeovers.”

    This sets up a real debate and, hopefully, shifts Obama & Co. from positioning the Republicans as the “party of no” to revealing the actual policies that Republicans – mainstream, conservative Repuiblicans – advocate. Isn’t this what the purity test is all about? Isn’t this – the ADA, the Medicare prescription benefit, etc. – precisely what defines the Bushes as big government conservatives that the DeMint Tea Partiers rail against.

    Forget about a referendum on Obama, let’s debate and choose between Obama’s worldview and this one.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Right after 911, I spent a considerable amount of time on libertarian sites particularly Lew Rockwell.com and Antiwar.com. I always admired the way the carved out a principle and stuck to it even when it ran counter to traditional ‘conservative’ thinking. The thing that ultimately turned me off was the fact that the libertarian movement indeed provided sanctuary to unapologetic racists. Under the umbrella of ‘freedom of association’ came some particularly nasty sentiment.
    .
    I’m looking forward to the Tea Partier’s realizing that they are coming out in favor of pornography AND against foreign military adventures. I always enjoyed watching heads explode.

  • sacredh

    I hope the media continues to follow Rand Paul and identify him with the Tea Party brand. Rand looks like the kind of Tea Party spokesman the left would choose to represent the Teabaggers. He’ll do our work for us.

  • Paul-no not that one

    I wish Maddow had been smart enough to expand away from Public Accommodation and ask if restaurants were obligated to let kitchen inspectors in. Of if the FDA is an unconstitutional infringement on the chicken industry.
    .
    Where exactly is the line?

  • playscape

    Tea Party? Try the Republican Party. Paul is exactly the type of candidate DeMint and Palin, the two brightest lights (one inside, the other outside), extol as the future of the Republican party.

    Again, this is why shining a light on what the Tea Party and small government/personal liberty Repubs are actually for is more powerful than claiming they are gumming up the workings of Congress.

  • allthingsinaname

    Sure makes Jay Newton-Small’s Article “Today’s Winner” look like a loser to me.

  • square1

    I am not completely sold on the allegation that Rand Paul is a racist. An obnoxious jerk? Yes. A racist? Need more evidence.

  • destor23

    Much as I don’t want this guy in a position of power, don’t we have a responsibility to get past the soundbites here? Isn’t he right that shaming racism out of society is ultimately more effective than trying to legislate it away? And if we want to have more freedom of choice don’t we have to accept that some people are going to make ugly choices? And don’t we know that accepting other people’s ugly choices isn’t the same as condoning them?

  • Ohg Rea Tone

    Paul’s dilemma is that he suffers from Obama Derangement Syndrome and he is in denial – and his health insurance company will not pay for treatment. ……….

    http://thefiresidepost.com/2010/05/20/obama-derangement-syndrome-leads-to-politicians-anonymou/

  • homerhk

    I do appreciate the attempt at nuance in this report – although would be nice if it were ever thus…Leaving aside the issue of whether Rand Paul is himself a racist – and I’m willing to concede that he is not, isn’t the point that there is a major flaw to the libertarian philosophy (which sounds to me more like anarchy than anything really to do with freedom) in that rigidly applied it permits a society where people can be discriminated against for whatever reason. That’s a pretty simple argument against libertarianism in my book which doesn’t rely on accusing all libertarians of being racist (or for that matter child pornographers).

  • homerhk

    destor, I appreciate the thoughts but I don’t think that it’s an either or thing. Sure shaming people into not being racist is effective. But, that’s never going to happen 100% and the laws against discrimination are there to make it clear that whatever one’s personal prejudices, no-one should be discriminated against because of the colour of their skin, gender, sexuality or for any other reason.

  • sacredh

    The Tea Party supported Paul over the republican candidate. The media has identified Paul as the Tea Party candidate. Rand has alligned himself with the Tea Party movement. Rand is putting himself in the position where he is going to have spend more time defending his own positions/philosophy than he does attacking his opponent. The Tea Party is a movement within the republican party even if they do claim to represent groups from all segments of the electorate.

  • diecash1

    I don’t think he necessarily is a racist. Although, in his POV, if you own a business and you’re a racist, he seems to be okay with that because, after all, it’s not institutionalized racism.

  • gysgt213

    “Government should not tell private businesses how to behave.”
    .
    So they can just serve tainted food then.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    It’s quite possible he isn’t racist. He merely believes that the government has no business outlawing discrimination. That merely makes him a racist’s best friend.

  • destor23

    Thanks for your reply above homerhk, and for this smart take on the topic. I think it does, indeed imply that it would permit a society where people can be discriminated against for whatever reason. But doesn’t that go hand in hand with the right to freedom of association that we all have as Americans?

  • sacredh

    I look at the Tea Party in much the same way I view the blue dogs in my own party. They are nominally democrats, but they basically have their own agenda and only use the party label to get their own way. They’re opportunists. The blue dogs are conservatives in a party of the center-left. The Tea Party are extreme rightwingers in a party of right wingers.

  • nibblybits

    “…than the conclusion “Rand Paul is racist” (which he clearly is not).”
    .
    It’s not so “clear” that he is not.

  • playscape

    Depends on how you define the Republican Party. The driving forces of the party today are not Mitch McConnell and John Cornyn, but rather Jim DeMint and Sarah Palin. Paul’s worldview is consistent with the DeMint/Palin worldview and aligned with the RNC’s purity test. You can split hairs as to whether the Tea Party is a subset or is aligned with the party, but Paul is simply articulating the practical implications of the limited government/personal liberty philosophy that permeates the Republican Party. It is because he is not a politician that he revealed too much. I actually think getting this out in the open is a good thing for politics and the country.

  • southernbell49

    I don’t think Rand Paul is a racist. The problem is that he is an idealogue and idealogues, rather of the right or left, tend to be more theorists than practitioners because once you put realize a concept you have to fine tweak it and they can’t let go of their precious ideas.

    A big irony is that many in the Tea Party are just like the old Marxists in the Soviet Union who clung to their five-year plans and the belief in the superiority of Marxism even as their economies collapsed. The right’s blind faith in capitalism is just as unrealistic.

  • Ffred

    Libertarianism, much as anarchism, relies in priciple upon the ability of everyone to shoulder responsibility and make informed decisions. Given the degree to which we’re all basically lazy, ignorant, and selfish, neither approach can possibly succeed.

  • http://selfattack.wordpress.com selfattack

    Libertarian philosophy is pretty simple. The principle it is based on is that aggression, the initiation of violence, is always wrong no matter what the reason. On the scale of values aggressive violence is the worst thing you can do. So even if you think its terrible and racist for a restaurant to refuse to serve white people, it would be worse to initiate violence against them to force them serve white people.

    Thats all it is. Those that oppose this principle are the ones that have to make their case, not those of us that hold to the principle of non-aggression.

    If you think aggressive violence is the right solution when the person you are attacking has done nothing violent, then it is you, not Rand Paul or anyone else that has some explaining to do.

  • sacredh

    playscape, thank you for an interesting discussion.
    .
    You said, “It is because he is not a politician that he revealed too much.” I also think that’s true. Rand is saying what he believes even though he doesn’t seem to realize that he is going to be forced to run against and defend his own beliefs. He’s going to be forced to backtrack and distance himself from his political philosophy and his own personal beliefs.
    .
    When his philosopy and his personal opinions clash, the voters are going to wonder what his actual positions are and how he would govern. He may not personally be rascist (and I’m willing to give him the benefit of a doubt on this), but when he says he thinks that businesses shouldn’t have to serve people they don’t want to, it gives every appearance of being rascist and many people are ging to think that he is rascist.
    .
    I don’t disagree at all that this is going to lead to many discussions, I just don’t think he’s going to come out of it without either looking bad or having tospend a huge amount of time clarifying his own positions. The people may want fresh blood and ideas in Washington, but they also want to know what they’re getting.

  • sacredh

    That’s racist. I did it twice. Sorry for being sloppy.

  • Art Pepper

    Oh God, now we’re going to get a bunch of fervent Randians in here defending objectivism and Aristotle against the evils of Kant.

    I think we can posit that Rand Jr is not racist. I’m more interested in whether he will pursue his vision of getting rid of the Fed.

  • sacredh

    Only fervent Randians could make me go out and trim the hedges. I’ll exile myself to the yard.

  • constantweader

    Freedom’s just another word for white supremacy.

    With apologies to Chris Christopherson,
    The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com

  • allthingsinaname

    No he is not a Racist; he opposes institutional racism. He believes the government should oppose racism where federal dollars are involved. Of course he also believes that Federal dollars shouldn’t be involved anywhere.
    .
    Walk like a duck, talk like a duck, it is a duck.

  • playscape

    This will torpedo Rand Paul. My point is that he is not a lone wolf — the mainstream conservatives think this way too. He is just too naive to know that you don’t say this out loud.

    The question will be whether DeMint, Palin, etc. run away from Paul, blame the ‘liberal’ media or embrace his view (which they share!). Because they are politicians, “c” is not an option; because they are cyncial opportunists, “b” is the likely path.

    However,I believe, our country (and our President) would be much better served if we actually had a real debate on the role of government and talked about the practical implications of policy rather than the constant refrains of “small government” and “personal liberty”.

  • grape_crush

    Good example of using an event as a jump-off point for a meatier discussion, Michael.
    .
    To follow my examples above, does it then follow that one cannot be anti-drug and libertarian, or anti-pornography and libertarian?
    .
    Yup. Hard to impose your pro- or anti-whatever biases on others at the same time you’re chanting, “don’t tread on my rights”. Makes for all different sorts of hypocrisy.
    .
    For example, Ron Paul is “an unshakable foe of abortion”, thinks it’s a ‘states rights’ issue, yet is pretty much the current godfather/midwife of the libertarian movement in the US. That’s kind of a mixed bag of positions.
    .
    My experience is the application of a libertarian’s principles tends to vary depending on the individual (which kinda fits, if you think about it). With Libertarianism, you get to argue against and advocate for whatever floats your boat…and moan about how others are supressing your rights when they do the same to you.

  • joeyb47

    “Allowing for discriminatory practices is implicit sanction of those practices, no matter what the philosophical grounds are.”

    The government “allows” both the KKK and the ACLU to exist. Are those two diametrically opposed groups both given the government’s implicit sanction?

    What about the National Right To Life Committee and NARAL? They are fundamentally opposed to each other, but both are “allowed” to exist.

    Believe it or not, just because something is not illegal does not mean that it is sanctioned or sponsored by any government.

  • rose83

    To follow my examples above, does it then follow that one cannot be anti-drug and libertarian, or anti-pornography and libertarian?
    .
    Yes, a libertarian cannot be politically opposed to drugs and pornography. It’s central to libertarian philosophy that both drugs and pornography do not merit government sanction, unlike treason for example. However, a libertarian can be personally opposed to both. But libertarians set a high standard for government interference, and they believe that drugs and pornography are – in essence – not bad enough to merit government sanction.
    .
    There are some parallels with Kerry’s position on abortion. He is personally, but not politically, opposed to it. And the pro-lifers who criticized him were right, to some extent. Obviously he doesn’t think abortion is as bad many pro-life people do, or else he would want to prohibit it. John Kerry does not believe legalized abortion is legalizing the mass murder of millions of babies. That doesn’t mean his personal opposition is insincere: it just means that it’s limited. I have no reason to doubt Rand Paul’s opposition to racism. If he were willing to lie about this, then he would have simply never shared his opinions in the first place. But if he hated racism as much as I do, he would think that commercial segregation meets the high standard libertarians set for government interference.

  • middlegirl

    Libertarians always seem to cherry pick when and where freedom is important. If Rand Paul really cared about government intervention than he would be a fierce advocate for gay marriage and a woman’s right to choose.

    As this Guardian writer aptly puts it about Rand, “As long as libertarianism keeps him on safe ground (bashing the UN and international alliances, say), he is one. But when need be, he’s a religious conservative. A perfect amalgam of what the tea party movement is. But don’t look for any consistency.” http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/michaeltomasky/2010/may/19/us-politics-tea-party-movement-randpauls-libertarianism

    Religious conservatism is always about imposing their beliefs on the rest of us and limiting our freedoms because the Christian right claims the superior moral high ground over the spiritually unenlightened. Father knows best, or better yet Big Brother knows best. The fact that true libertarianism and religious conservatism are diametrically opposed will never trouble Rand and his tea party supporters.

    No wonder the writer of the above linked post said that Rand’s appearance reminded him of the song and dance man, Danny Kaye, because Rand will have to do some fancy tap dancing to juggle his inconsistent views.

  • centfan

    Really? I thought it was the idea that you’d all be millionaires with your incredible business acumen if only you didn’t have to pay taxes. You’d all have a harem of sexy wives and all your kids would be geniuses (home schooled by the brilliant, sexy wives) and your children would go on to do incredible things in service of only themselves while the non-believers look on from someplace NOT ON YOUR LAWN and wept for their weak dependence on having to be told which side of the road to drive on.
    -
    Isn’t that the standard wet dream?

  • kevin

    As John Rogers said:
    .

    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    .
    http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2009/03/ephemera-2009-7.html

  • rose83

    So what do you think of the segregated restaurant owners who would attack African-Americans peacefully requesting service?
    .
    Segregation is only sustainable when it is backed by the threat of violence. There is no such thing as peaceful segregation.

  • allthingsinaname

    Absurd, look on and do nothing. Watch as the rest of society beats the crap out of someone. Hey, I am not the aggressive one here..
    .
    Rationalism at it’s worst

  • 53_3

    I think the real problem is that even if Rand Paul isn’t racist, his ideology is the umbrella under which those that are find solace.
    .
    Rand Paul isn’t really new, as a type politician. This is 1980s era GOP politics being played out in the open, instead of buried in codespeak and promoted by “entertainers”.
    .
    As for whether he is, I think that would be answered best by observing who he associates with. There is some validity to the idea that you can get some idea of what someone is like by the company they keep.

  • centfan

    In Rand’s world can I make black people sit in the back of the bus and force them to smoke if I own the bus company? Can I put black people on top of the bus but only the white people inside the bus can smoke? If the bus rolls over and all the black people die has there been a crime? Do the cigarettes have filters?
    -
    So many possibilities. I feel so creatively empowered.

  • 53_3

    allthings:
    .
    Descrimination by organizations, whether public or private, is institutional racism. Therefore he does not oppose institutional racism.
    .
    On whether he is or not, see my comment at 8.8. To me, the jury is out.

  • 53_3

    I think that Rand Paul is going to be good for the country as a whole. Like Pawlenty, he is going to demonstrate to mainstream America just what the current GOP brand is all about.
    .
    Already, having written off the Black community, and appearing to write off the Latino community as well, it appears that having some of them actually in power to really demonstrate the consequences of their ideologies will make clear that not all that is conservative is golden.

  • 53_3

    People need to remember that the difference between the KKK and the ACLU is that the former is a terrorist organization. The ACLU is not.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Michael,

    I do not believe I have ever addressed an author here, but, I hate the first part of your first sentence, “The libertarian approach, which heavily favors private rights over government rights..”

    Nobody believes in “government rights”.

    The government acts on the majority of those who are elected by the majority of the people. It is, basically (maybe not 100% of the time) the will of the majority.

    One exception was the very beginning of the Civil Rights movement. Then the government was acting on the basis of court rulings.

    So, it should read “The libertarian approach, which heavily favors private rights over majority rule and court rulings…”

    The government does not have the right do anything and should not have the right to do anything without the consent and/or order from the executive, law passed by the legislature or order of a court with jurisdiction over such an area.

  • joeyb47

    “People need to remember that the difference between the KKK and the ACLU is that the former is a terrorist organization. The ACLU is not.”
    *
    So I guess that means that the United States government ‘implicitly sanctions’ a terrorist group by allowing them to exist. Thank you for making my point better than I originally had.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The principle it is based on is that aggression, the initiation of violence, is always wrong no matter what the reason.”
    .
    So, if I bring a Latino girl with me to a “whites only” restaurant at 6:00 in the evening and, since we are not being served, stay there for nine days with her demanding that we get served, if the owner does more than tap me on the shoulder, it is wrong?

    Obviously not!

    If true Libertarianism were to rule, I would be very violently dragged out by the police for trespassing along with this woman.

    Libertarianism is about a rich man’s boot on a poor man’s face.

  • allthingsinaname

    Rand Paul uses the term institutional racism, as one that exists in Federal Institutions, Not private, not state. Watch the video. He will allow it and, so he embraces it.

  • grape_crush

    The government “allows” both the KKK and the ACLU to exist.
    .
    I think you are mixing up the concepts of ‘existence’ and ‘practice’, Joey.
    .
    We, the government, allow for mostly free expression. You can be a complete cretin and state that Americans of African descent shouldn’t be allowed to date Americans of Caucasian descent. That view (and the right to assemble with others who share that view) can exist.
    .
    Where the line is drawn is when those words become practice, or action; you can’t go out and lynch the American of African descent who is dating your daughter because you don’t like black people dating whites.
    .
    Are those two diametrically opposed groups..
    .
    Invalid assumption and comparison. The ACLU has actually defended the free speech and assembly rights of the KKK on occasion…but the ACLU would not defend the ‘right’ of the KKK to organize and commit a lynching because it fits within their system of beliefs.

  • stuartzechman

    Fellow liberals:
    .
    I have no idea whether or not Rand Paul, in his heart of hearts, is a racist. I have no evidence at this time, however, with which to conclude that he is one, so I will presume that he is not motivated by an ideology of racial supremacy or similarly discredited doctrines and beliefs. That’s what we liberals do. We don’t assume the flawed consciences of individuals based on their group identity. Unlike some movement conservatives, we don’t say “he’s a Muslim, so he probably wants to blow up buildings with airplanes, and deserves torture,” because that would be immoral and wrong. We don’t start with the premise that Rand Paul, because he belongs to that other tribe over there who we don’t like, is probably a racist –even if his positions are wrong or unjust, and he doesn’t use code words that let us assume that his motivations are pure.
    .
    I disagree with his arguments that state prohibitions on private businesses’ discrimination on the basis of the race of the purchaser of goods and services, because I think there is a more compelling case to be made that freedom is abridged far more by such cartel-like behavior than is gained through lack of prohibition –the same reason that price-fixing is outlawed, thus guaranteeing a free market’s existence. Rand Paul, if he is consistent, probably reasons that prohibitions on monopoly, price-fixing and other anti-competitive practices violate private interests in free association, too.
    .
    My argument against Rand Paul’s position is a moral one: it is unjust to deprive individuals of their freedom to participate fully in a market economy, and thus their freedom to fully participate in a democratic republic –to better themselves according to their potential. If private schools fix the price of an education at “always too high for people like you, no matter what your individual merit,” opportunities for each individual to learn to study the Constitution to her capabilities are artificially and unjustly limited, just as much as when public schools were segregated by statute. Justice demands fair treatment of individuals as individuals. The lack of freedom to better oneself causes vast, unnecessary human suffering and deprivation, and is morally wrong.
    .
    I have these arguments to make because of my liberal ideology, which informs me of these principles. Liberalism recognizes the reality that it is not only the state which illegitimately limits freedom –and is therefore unjust– but also that powerful corporate and individual interests can deprive us of our liberties. We understand that injustice perpetuated against our neighbors by private organizations are just as wrong as unjust laws enforced by the state. Rand Paul is not a liberal, and does not understand this reality.
    .
    Someday I would like to make these arguments against Paul (and against libertarianism generally), in a theoretical discussion of the role of the state in a free society, but I don’t think that liberals should be arguing these things right at this moment.
    .
    I think that, by focusing on whether or not Rand Paul would have voted for the 1964 Civil Rights Act because of its prohibitions on private businesses’ racially discriminatory practices, we have the great potential to represent ourselves to people unfamiliar with liberalism –many Kentuckians, for example– as being more concerned with ideological arguments over long-settled law than with practical problems that face ordinary people. I think that obsessively making the case for our superiority on Civil Rights issues might tend to appeal to a certain kind of liberal first and foremost over proposed policies and solutions to problems like, say, home foreclosure, but I’m pretty certain that this might not hold the same appeal to lots of other people. In fact, I think that people who face problems like a quarter of their neighbors being foreclosed upon at a time in which property taxes have finally caught up to 2007-level assessment values might think we are f*cking nuts for bringing up the Civil Rights Act of 1964 now, not Rand Paul.
    .
    However right we may be, I don’t think that it really matters that much at the moment, except to reassure ourselves of our righteousness. I don’t think that we’re doing liberalism any favors at all. When we attack someone like Paul this way, we’re not spending our communication capital proposing liberal solutions to the problems that face ordinary people, solutions that they can understand, and that let them know that we’re on their side. In other words, we don’t get to be successful, even if we succeed in muddying the personal reputation of Rand Paul, or in promoting some general doubt about libertarians’ commitment to American values –even if most people do agree with us that private discrimination is wrong, and should be against the law.
    .
    Even if you can get people to understand that he even holds these positions, the normal, reasonable response to “He’s against the 1964 Civil Rights Act!” from folks frustrated by problems they elect representatives to solve is:

    Yes, yes, so what? What are you going to do about this new $6,000 deductible my company’s health insurance provider has included in this year’s plan? What about the insecurity I face because of rising prices of the oil necessary to heat my home in the winter? What about the feeling I have that my taxes, which have gone up considerably, even though my property is now worthless, aren’t being put to good use? What does the 1960-whatever Civil Rights law have to do with anything? What’s your problem, liberals? Do you live to fight about these things, or are you part of the pampered elite that doesn’t face the same problems my family does?

    I think that, even if we succeed in making the case against Rand Paul, even if we scream loud enough so that the political press corps covers him as the “controversial on race” candidate, even if he loses the race because that focus causes big donors to drop out, or his popular Tea Party message of “No more bailouts! No more government wasting our money!” to fail to get through –even if we win this time, this way– we will lose. Democrats will have won a Senate seat; liberals will have again lost the opportunity to show people that we have their interests at heart, and that our policies can bring necessary change for the better. Democrats win one; liberals lose the whole thing. Rand wins, conservatives win; Rand loses, conservatives win…if we continue to insist on promoting ourselves in this fundamentally flawed way.
    .
    We really have to come to a better understanding of why we’re doing what we’re doing, and to get out of this no-win situation we love to put ourselves in. How we respond to the phenomenon of Rand Paul and people like him is a test of our resolve to become truly transformative as a real public movement, and a test of us all individually as liberals. Will we do what’s most familiar to us (and predictable to establishment Democrats), or will we go beyond that to join our fellow citizens in putting the focus of our politics squarely where it belongs: on what we should expect our government to do right now to uphold our interests?
    .
    Do we want to win and really lose, or do we want to get ourselves on the path to a democracy in which actual liberalism is given the opportunity to solve the problems we know it can best solve? Is proving to the electorate that Rand Paul is probably a racist as important as proving that we won’t make the same mistakes our unaccountable elites keep making?
    .
    I think that the test of liberals is whether we can keep focused on the latter when the former is being waved like a red cape in front of our faces.
    .
    Thanks so much for reading and considering this, folks.

  • spectex

    People here are really getting too much into the weeds.

    The problem is very fundamental: things in this country have really gone off the rails (does anyone disagree)? Clearly, electing the same-old-same-old won’t get us anywhere, and the political and media elites in this country are staggeringly out of touch with the common man. The “Tea Party” is just a symptom of this underlying problem.

    There’s no bigger example of this than the Arizona immigration law. Politicians and the media went absolutely nuts – witness all the threats of boycotts, etc. – yet 60% of Americans say the AZ law is either just right, or doesn’t go far enough.

    Frankly, if I thought a candidate would take the US’ fiscal problems seriously, they could advocate sex with sheep or crucifixion of prisoners and still get my vote…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Agreed.
    .
    Long, but excellent.
    .
    I like having my comments next yours the same reason I like standing next to fat people: fat people make me look thin and your posts make mine look short.
    . :)
    .
    I do believe that Rand Paul is obsessed with his ideology and that, despite the fact that he is most likely anti-racist, put it so far above and beyond anything practical that he ended up supporting a concept which would have the end result of private sector racism.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Well said, but, with his other remarks, I would put a question mark around Rand Paul’s being or not being racist.

  • grape_crush

    I think the point was that you’ve made a bad comparison, Joey. The ACLU and the KKK are not similar enough for comparison.
    .
    So I guess that means that the United States government ‘implicitly sanctions’…
    .
    Again, a racists organization’s right to exist is not the same as it’s right to put its racist views into practice. Paul stated that, although he ‘abhors’ racism, it can not only exist, but that it’s perfectly acceptable to put into practice.
    .
    Thank you for making my point better than I originally had.
    .
    Hardly.

  • allthingsinaname

    And sit back let him define the issues, take the title of American, Christian, Apple Pie, while we are just bleeding hearts, anti-christian, socialist, communists, leftist loonies.
    .
    No let us not call a person who supports racism in private institution a racist. It is about the liberty after all.
    .
    I guess I just do not know racism when I see it.

  • eclecticman1

    What worries me about Mr. Paul is if he is elected and becomes a senator with all the powers a single senator has, he will bring the machinery of the government to a halt. I know some will say great but,there is a lot we depend on our government for plus we are already getting a reputation around the world for having a stalmated government. He can give those who hate big governent what they want, but they will not like what they finally get.

  • grape_crush

    …liberals will have again lost the opportunity to show people that we have their interests at heart, and that our policies can bring necessary change for the better.
    .
    Agree in principle, disagree in practical application.
    .
    1) Paul’s dragging the Overton window a few more inches to the right…here we have people debating whether or not Paul’s statement makes him a racist instead of decrying the fact that, for whatever reason, a GOP senatorial candidate just condoned discrimination.
    .
    2) We explain why ‘liberal policy is good for the public’ until we’re blue in the face already. What did we hear more about last August? Death panels or how the HCR bill would benefit us?
    .
    We appeal to the mind while the right-wingers are appealing to the emotions…namely fear, selfishness, insecurity, and envy.
    .
    3) If Paul’s statements – as you say – are an affront to justice, then isn’t it incumbent upon us, as lovers of justice, to speak out? Remaining silent is a lesser form of implicit endorsement of Paul’s views, in my opinion.

  • http://selfattack.wordpress.com selfattack

    Its pretty funny to read the responses to my simple post. All I said was the initiation of violence is morally wrong. Thats all. If you think there are worse things than that, such as owning a restaurant and refusing to serve redheads, then you be the one to take the gun to the restaurant and tell him he’d better serve those redheads or you’ll shoot him.

    Just excluding people you don’t want from your property is not aggression. Its your right. If you disagree, I’m going to come over to your house tonight, and exercise my “right” to free speech in your living room and lecture you on Objectivist theory. Would you be committing aggression by kicking me out? If you say no, then you already agree with me.

    Also, people that think that if not for the law against it every restaurant would refuse to serve blacks don’t understand how profit seeking businesses operate and don’t have any faith in their fellow human beings. If you think force is required to fight racism, and everyone would be racist without it you also can’t be in favor of democracy. You would have to advocate for dictatorship where the dictators all have the enlightened superior values you hold.

    After all, if the public is naturally racist then in a democracy you would get a government that enforces racism. So if you really think the government is necessary to prevent racism logically you cannot support democracy.

  • stuartzechman

    Thanks so much for your responses, agree or disagree.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “‘..I’m going to come over to your house tonight, and exercise my “right” to free speech in your living room and lecture you on Objectivist theory. Would you be committing aggression by kicking me out?”
    .
    Your term was “violence”. Would it be a violent act for me or the police to drag you out of my apartment?
    .
    Yes.
    .
    You are not differentiating between a business and a home.
    .
    Also, there were some fascinating studies done on the topic. In the Jim Crow South wages for blacks were lower than afterward. That is because blacks were working only in jobs which whites did not want. Overall, owners of businesses with undesirable work were benefiting greatly from Jim Crow laws. The free market post Jim Crow had a wage increase as a market driven premium on unpleasant jobs.
    .
    “If you think force is required to fight racism, and everyone would be racist without it you also can’t be in favor of democracy”
    .
    You have two separate assumptions in that statement.
    .
    “…you think force is required to fight racism..”
    .
    If you mean a lawful arrest done with minimal force and prosecution, yes, I do.
    .
    “…everyone would be racist without it..”
    .
    Nobody made this statement.
    .
    Some people will be racist without laws protecting minorities. If, say, Asians, can get hired in 75% of all companies in, say, the computer business, but not all while whites can get hired in 96% of all computer businesses, but not all, then you have unjust inequality with only 25% anti-Asian racism and even with 4% anti-white racism (which I do not know of any cases of).
    .
    The Libertarian argument is that either that there will not be any racism even if it is legal or that some racism is acceptable.
    .
    If you agree that no racism is acceptable in the workplace or in businesses, then you can not support your stand.
    .
    If you believe that people can not make any laws controlling businesses, then, I would say, you do not believe in Democracy.
    .
    Democracy is about the majority determining where the line between individuals are which should not be crossed.
    .
    We agree, I am sure, that if wife beating were legal not every man would beat his wife. Since spousal abuse is inherently awful, laws must be made to prevent it.
    .
    The same goes for public businesses.
    .
    Also, Rand Paul makes no distinction between the characteristics of a human and the actions of human.
    .
    A gun owner may leave his gun at home. A black person can not leave their melanin at home and be white for the evening.

  • stuartzechman

    You have a warped and absurdly elastic definition of the term “force” that you apply to your discredit.
    .
    It is because of this that you conflate “aggression” and “limiting the freedom of some in favor of the freedom of others.”
    .
    You don’t seem to be able to tell the difference –morally and otherwise– between “force”, e.g. “rape”, and “force” e.g. “the state compelling businesses to comply with laws protecting the liberty of individuals through the threat of monetary sanctions,” although I wouldn’t necessarily expect a devotee of Ayn Rand to be able to tell the difference between “rape” and, say “romantic love between human beings.”
    .
    Your views of liberty are perverse; you are blind to an entire category of threats to freedom represented by other powerful entities than the state. Liberals are the true protectors of freedom and market economy, because we’re not bogged down in fantasy ideology about the differences in legitimacy between “retaliatory violence” (parking tickets) and “initiated violence” (parking tickets).
    .
    Try accepting the premise that the state in a representative democracy is one manifestation of a voluntarily entered contract between citizens, enacted specifically to counter the freedom-limiting power of other organizations adversarial to the liberty of individuals –like corporations, which tend toward monopoly and aggregation of resources, for example. Then try to fit your concepts of “aggression” and “violence” into that construct, and throw away the parts that just can’t be crammed into it. These appendages are useless in practice, and only marginally good for the premises of pulp novels, much like Objectivism itself.

  • apr2563

    selfattack: You have no knowledge of history, even the not so distant kind. When businesses excluded minorities from access, they were well aware that they were losing income from those people. However, they felt by offerring services to minorities, beyond their own bigotry, they would lose the business of white customers. You don’t think that scenario could happen again?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “However, they felt by offerring services to minorities, beyond their own bigotry, they would lose the business of white customers…”
    .
    Apr, I wish I had access to everything I had once seen in a textbook, but, there was a great summery of two dueling articles about discrimination and economics I took in a labor economics class I took in 1992.
    .
    The first was a libertarian argument which claimed that companies would loose money to the point of bankruptcy for self segregation using a more simplistic model.
    .
    The second, however, went on to explain that, without government intervention, there was, at that time (hopefully not now, but who knows) enough racists who preferred white only stores and/or eateries that they made more money off of whites than they did when integrated. Furthermore, an integrated place could charge top dollar to blacks since they were among a limited number of places which would sell anything to blacks.
    .
    This was a summery of two PhD dissertations I read eighteen years ago, so, I don’t have the good details, but, there is a huge amount of money to be made off of racism if the laws forbidding it are dropped.

  • stuartzechman

    A kind individual has pointed out to me that
    .
    I disagree with his arguments that state prohibitions on private businesses’ discrimination on the basis of the race of the purchaser of goods and services,
    .
    is missing a word or two.
    .
    Sorry, that should read:
    .
    I disagree with his arguments that state prohibitions on private businesses’ discrimination on the basis of the race of the purchaser of goods and services are illegitimate,

  • constantweader

    For anyone who might have accepted Paul’s non-responsive responses on the teevee, there’s this:

    “A free society will abide unofficial, private discrimination, even when that means allowing hate-filled groups to exclude people based on the color of their skin.” — Rand Paul, in a letter to the Bowling Green Daily News in 2002 (via Political Wire)

    History is not on Paul’s side. As Bruce Bartlett & others have pointed out, Rand’s sacred “free market did not lead to a breakdown of segregation.”

    While it may be that “Paul doesn’t care about black people,” that’s not worth arguing. What is germane is that Paul’s principles will direct him to vote against legislation designed to eliminate or mitigate discrimination & he will vote for legislation that reduces government protections against any number of bad business practices. He is, in short, a danger to society.

    The Constant Weader

  • http://waldob.wordpress.com waldob

    People who discriminate would lose market share and therefore would go out of business on their own. Government would never have had to intervene. The market place would have turned on discrimination. I run a business and I can tell you I keep my best employees regardless of color or ethnic origin. The same would have come about in any business. The discrimination in voting or public places needed to be addressed, but the private business aspect would have addressed itself

  • richardstands

    “Allowing for discriminatory practices is implicit sanction of those practices, no matter what the philosophical grounds are.”

    So accepting a behavior is the same thing as approving of it? Either you ban a thing or endorse it? Does that work for speech as well? “Allowing hateful speech is implicit sanction of hateful speech, no matter what the philosophical grounds are.”

    “Of course, Paul’s ideology allows not only for racism to flourish, but several other practices that we as a country find abhorrent…heroin use, sweatshops fueled by child labor, gender discrimination, fraud, and so on.”

    “We as a country” (all 300 million of us) are very unlikely to agree on any single issue or spokesman. Drug use and gender discrimination do not, by their nature, involve force. They may, however, lead to force, and every libertarian I know would oppose that. You’ll have a hard time finding a libertarian who sanctions fraud or child labor.

  • richardstands

    How is “allowing” people to be racists the same thing as embracing racism?? Are the only two alternatives control or approval?

  • richardstands

    What other purely subjective viewpoints which affect voluntary human interaction should be outlawed in order to attain perfect compliance with approved thought?

    Racists are ignorant and fearful. Outlawing ignorance and fear does not remove it.

  • richardstands

    I think I can understand your trepidation. But after watching what big government did for the Soviets, and more recently Greece, I’m happy to support a senator who favors smaller government.

  • tkoa

    waldob,

    I have to disagree. (Sorry) Small to medium companies (as an owner yourself would know) only needs to maintain a customer base that pays above their expenses. (Profit). There is no guarantee that companies, especially local companies located in areas of a specific ethnic density would lose any regular market share to not serving others of another ethnic background. In fact, there regular customers might prefer to have some form of discrimination in place.

    Worse, you’re assuming that not serving another ethnic populace (or any person for some reason) is not a marketable quality. Advertisements could range from ‘We don’t cater to largely obese people’ or ‘We only hire beautiful people’ to ‘We refuse to serve those who fought in Vietnam.’

    It would (not could, would) become another way to differentiate between companies and services. To encourage blatant racism, sexism or any other ‘ism’ via view of ‘government should not interfere’ is probably worse (in my mind) than those who believe in such antiquated beliefs.

    Unfortunately Rand Paul might view it that he, as a person who has lighter skin than perhaps others may not be subject to these ‘free market’ forces. One wonders, however, what his views will be on the idea once he is refused service or treatment via a company.

    Not only that, but this kind of doctrine encourages ignorance. Those with a slight bias will be allowed to cordone off their sector of the world from things they do not understand and do not like due to that, deepening their own ignorance and perhaps, eventually, lead to hatred.

    Market forces won’t work simply because they only work if we (all of us) think and then act rationally in our own long term best interests. Which, we don’t.

    Shouganaine.

    It would be a nicer place if we did! :)

  • grape_crush

    So accepting a behavior is the same thing as approving of it?
    .
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
    .
    One of the primary flaws of Libertarianism is that it effectively nominally good people from doing something.
    .
    Does that work for speech as well?
    .
    Nope.
    .
    Drug use and gender discrimination do not, by their nature, involve force.
    .
    ‘Force’ is a low and somewhat false standard. Try ‘harm’ instead.
    .
    You’ll have a hard time finding a libertarian who sanctions fraud or child labor.
    .
    But racial discrimination is a-ok?
    .
    If the principles are that the government has no business interfering in private enterprise and we don’t have some form of consensus of what is acceptable action but we should only be concerned when ‘force’ is used, what sorts of harm will we have to endure?

  • richardstands

    Strange as it seems, one can actually strongly disapprove of another person’s ignorant, hateful, non-violent behavior on his own property without asking a governing body to force him or her to stop.
    .
    If one’s standard is a lax as “harm” (was I harmed by your rebuttal? were you harmed by mine?), I’ll grant that it’s amazing what can be justified. We can begin to justify asking that governing body to use actual force on the miscreant whose thoughts are not acceptable. Why not on unacceptable speech? What if my speech “harms” you? Certainly a good man will not stand idly by and let me have evil thoughts, preferences, and speech?
    .
    People discriminate every day, on every topic. It’s also called making a distinction. Some discrimination is baseless, stupid, and irrelevant. Some discrimination is justified, thoughtful, and pertinent. Most is somewhere in-between. All distinctions can be viewed by one observer differently than another.
    .
    When I think my view of your non-violent choices trumps your view, your freedom wanes, and so does mine.
    .
    I don’t claim the right to control your non-violent thoughts and actions. Do you claim ownership of mine?

  • mktnr3

    Ffred, the government can’t actually mandate that we all become educated, well-informed, energetic, useful and generous to society, now can it?

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