Arizona Saturation

Did ask McCain to borrow a loaner sheriff?

Build the dang fence!

…and watch illegals tunnel under it.

First, it is not relevant that S.Carolina is not a border state, there certainly are numerous aeasonal laborers of questionable legal residence.
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Second, the Arizona law takes great pains to recognize and comply with the existing Federal laws that currently are not being enforced, by creating an enforcement structure and process.
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Third, the ability of an Arizona Law Enforcement Officer to demand residency documentation is predicated on a “lawful” primary enforcement…i.e. traffic stop, convenience store hold-up, etc.
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For those who get their news at daily kos or the NY Times, A person ( legal or illegal ) M U S T be suspected of another crime BEFORE their residency documentation can be DEMANDED.

I’m sorry, but when suddenly shift to all caps, do you speak louder into your monitor too? Huffing and puffing, and…

A person ( legal or illegal ) M U S T be suspected of another crime BEFORE their residency documentation can be DEMANDED.

You’re argument fails to account for CITIZENS. Citizens do not routinely carry “residency documentation” but they are just as subject to the law. Lets us also not forget that most police encounters don’t result in people’s arrest and detention. Once they do, the number of cops actually doing their jobs is going to be significantly diminished letting the serious offenders operate with that much more impunity.

jcapan @ 2.1,

provided for emphasis…but do you have a point about the content rather than to ridicule the format?

40% of illegal immigrants in this country crossed the border legally and overstayed their visas.
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Most of those here legally are here for work, and yet I hear very little about increasing penalties for those that hire illegals.
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Until I hear someone talk about comprehensive solutions to illegal immigration that include using US-VISIT data to track down overstayed visas and fines for businesses using illegal labor, I’m going to assume this has less to do with illegal immigration and a lot more to do with anti-Hispanic sentiments in the GOP.

The nimrods on here always go for blasting away at non-issue retorts to comments unless you regurgitate the liberal talking points verbatim.
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If you express the truth as you did in your post at 2.0, then the frothing at the mouth crowd who recently just left the 3rd graders playground will come out to attack. It is inherent in their 3rd grade mentality.
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“Let’s gang up on the fat kid today when we play dodge ball, says the one 3rd grader to the other”…….”Huffing and puffing, and……and….and…we’ll blow your HOUSE DOWN!!!!

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Keep spreading the truth, justmy02cents. They cannot handle the truth or any part of free speech which questions their ideology. Once you question their ideology and it is clearly defined as to how flawed it is, they then shout “racist”, “Teabagger”, “rightwing-nut”, and the list goes on and on.
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I personally love it when they go off their liberal deep ends and begin to look psychotic in their responses. It truly makes my day.
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Wait until you get the spelling nazis all riled up. Now that bunch is a hoot!!

Would you tell that to my unemployed neighbor? He’s even a legal citizen, imagine that!!

Oh and he’s a registered Democrat to boot!!

Rusty, you earned your racist reputation fair and square. Starting with talking about how noble the Northern European settlers in PA were as contrasted to city dwellers was just the start. Then linking to this site:
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http://www.altermedia.info/civil-rights/the-problem-with-whites-by-prof-kevin-macdonald_689.html
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http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/03/02/shocking/#comment-47333
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Let alone the sleeping White giant references and your detachment from reality when the subject of conversation is our current President.

It’s true that there are many Conservatives who aren’t racist but they aren’t in the habit of obsessing over Mexican immigrants.

paul @ 2.2

to your second point, that is until the illegals are gone…that is what you meant right?.
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to your first point:
20 B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON’S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

operative words…”reasonable suspicion” and “reasonable attempt shall be made when practicable”

All the people of Hispanic origin in Arizona should wear disguises. Come to think of it, maybe John McCain should get one too. ……..

http://thefiresidepost.com/2010/05/01/legalmexican-disguises-to-avoid-arrest/

So apparently you prefer that the cops stay busy hassling immigrants until all 12 million of them are gone, rather than prioritize serious crime and do what it takes to keep people safe.
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And i am familiar with the text of the law (I apparently read it in full BEFORE the USAG but I digress.)
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The problem I described remains. Your leaving it up to individual officers to determine who may be reasonably suspected to be an alien. Absent a serious privacy intrusion, the only basis an officer will have to judge, is the person’s race or accent. This has the unavoidable effect of creating a group of second class citizens among those who ARE in fact citizens based on their race. This is in clear violation of the equal protection statute of the CONSTITUTION that conservative pretend to love unless it involves reading.
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The law is unconstitutional.

I proposed this a month after September 11, 2001.
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All non US citizens enter the US for ANY reason should be issued a “credit card type” visitor card and be required to present it “on-demand” by an official AND be required to insert it in a “reader” at a periodic interval during their stay in the US.
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the “readers” would include ALL video equipped ATMs, ALL USPS facilities, ALL police stations, ALL Motor Vehicle and other government facilities that are equipped for interaction with the public.
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The purpose of the visit, the background of the visitor would determine the interval for the “check-in” and severity of the response for failure to “check-in” .
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A marginally risky visitor, would have a short interval (perhaps even daily or less) and failure would trigger a serious response to locate the visitor.
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Since the is NOT applicable to US Citizens, I do not think that there are privacy and constitutional issues.
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Perhaps the other posters here can help me refine this proposal?
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If they tunnel under the dang fence, the Arizona sherriffs have to keep them off my dang lawn (unless they are doing landscape work).

paul @ 5.1
So apparently you prefer that the cops stay busy hassling immigrants until all 12 million of them are gone, rather than prioritize serious crime and do what it takes to keep people safe.
>
>>>> perhaps they are one in the same?
>
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And i am familiar with the text of the law (I apparently read it in full BEFORE the USAG but I digress.)
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The problem I described remains. Your leaving it up to individual officers to determine who may be reasonably suspected to be an alien.
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>>>> Only AFTER the suspect is suspected of ANOTHER crime….and officers to that every second of every day today on a myriad of issues….
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Absent a serious privacy intrusion, the only basis an officer will have to judge, is the person’s race or accent.
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>>>> Unless the person is doing something else that is suspected to be illegal. You keep fogetting that.
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This has the unavoidable effect of creating a group
of second class citizens among those who ARE in fact citizens based on their race.
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>>>>see previous; since you are basing this on your previous FALSE premise
>
>
This is in clear violation of the equal protection statute of the CONSTITUTION that conservative pretend to love unless it involves reading.
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The law is unconstitutional.
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>>>> NOPE…
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I have read every word multiple times and although I am not an attorney or constitutional scholar….this has no basis in “equal protection”

paul @ 5.1
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In the future, please ask me what I prefer, before you presume what I prefer.
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But since you brought it up, I prefer the illegals all gone from the US.
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I also prefer that “anchor babies” of illegal parents not be US citizens as a birthright.
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I also prefer a verifiable “guest worker” program that is NOT connect to a path to US Citizenship.
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I prefer that English as the official language of the United States and that all bilingual governmental requirements be DROPPED and that the savings be budgeted to American History and ESL clases for immigrants.
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that is what I prefer.

Memo to Adam Sorensen: we’ve got things called “cars” nowadays. They can take people from one state to another in a matter of hours or across the whole country in just a few days. Imagine that!
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Memo to everyone else: this is the type of “reporting” that Time offers: bland, biased towards the illegal activity-supporting establishment, and completely ignorant about how things like people smugglers and crooked companies operate.
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As for the fence, it wouldn’t be designed to be impenetrable, just a deterrent designed to reduce the flow. That would have the side-effect of discouraging people from coming here illegally, which would have the impact of reducing border deaths. Instead of seeking to do that, “liberals” act like trained seals for corrupt companies and in effect enable more border deaths.
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I’ve got thousands of posts about this wider issue and if you want to find out what’s really going on click this text right here to see the list of topics I cover.

paul @ 5.1.
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more info for you.
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Last week Rep. Ted Poe (R-TX), poked a Texas-sized hole in the push to stop Arizona’s reasonable immigration law (SB 1070).
During a hearing with U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder, who has threatened legal action to block SB1070′s enforcement, Poe asked, “Have you read the Arizona law?”

Holder stammered, “I glanced at it.”

Poe, a former prosecutor and judge then turned up the heat on Holder, questioning his snap to judgment regarding the constitutionality of the statute without having first read the law. Poe then chided Holder by pointing out that the 16-page bill was much shorter than the healthcare bill — which Holder claims to have read.

Had Holder read the law, he would have concluded that SB1070 simply states that violating federal immigration law is now a state crime as well.

Adam Sorensen (and every other person in the Washington/New York/American press corps) calls the Arizona law a “controversial measure”.

“Controversial measure”? Hahahahahahahaha!

The Arizona law is so “controversial” that it is supported by an overwhelming majority of Americans (and virtually all of the pro-America community, i.e., Republicans.) http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/immigration/nationally_60_favor_letting_local_police_stop_and_verify_immigration_status

Since we want to get all illegal immigrants, why don’t we just outlaw any migrant field labor for agriculture. That will provide a lot of 10 hr piecework days for the unemployed here. And we certainly would want to pay them a living wage also so you can get your lettuce for $5 a head. The housing near the fields is already built.

You use the cheap labor to nanny your kids, landscape your lawns, and build your houses and then you are surprised that there are illegal aliens here.

Make the employer penalty $10,000 per employee per day for as many days as you can prove they were working for a company and then see it stop. And start with the big guys who belong to the Chamber of Commerce who are so against people being organized by unions but see no harm in putting other people out of work by using illegals.

And since AZ, NM, and TX were once part of Mexico, you damn sure better be sure who you are arresting.

I wish the Navajo would set up inspections on all of the roads that run through their lands (which is most of 4 states) looking for illegals of every color and no color. Would stop a lot of east west traffic on I-10, I-40, and I-70 but assure us that no illegals are slipping through.

I was thinking a yellow Jewish star on their sleeve.

So, on a related topic, I just voted no on Arizona’s Prop 100, which will raise sales tax by 1% if enacted.
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AZ Governor Brewer has said, “If we don’t get additional revenue in 2011, it will be a disaster. 2012 will be a major catastrophe.”
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I figure we’re headed that way anyway, what with Arpaio bankrupting the state and all, so why delay things?

There is this thing about “majority” opinion. You could get slavery reinstated in parts of the “old south” based on the language at senior centers. We could get Republicans hung at sunrise in some areas-same with Democrats in other areas. That’s why this is not a “democracy”, it is a “republic” so the minority doesn’t get run over by the majority. And don’t bring up Yankees in the south since the War hasn’t really ended in some parts of the country.

Wasn’t Arizona trying to get high speed rail service between Phoenix and Tijuana? I mean you do want to get illegals out of the country fast. In fact, make them pay for the rail ticket.
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If they can’t pay put them all in a supermax with armed guards, electronic monitoring, and three squares a day… second thought I don’t think 1% is going to cover it. Maybe the state can sell “I Heart Arizona” stickers to the Mexican tourists.

I hear China will let us buy the plans for the wall they have for only ten EZ payments. Guaranteed bamboo ladder proof.

Cliff, seriously? I thought the would-be revenue raised was primarily for education? Aren’t Mac & Kyl & the teapartiers all against it too?

If AZ really cared about this they would go after the employers. If there were no jobs, no income for people coming across the border or over staying their visas. People wouldn’t.

We could call in the IDF.
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They are experts at bombing tunnels…

This would solve all the constitutional problems. An employers database is a simple thing:
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1. For all who checked “Yes” to the question of citizenship, verify citizenship and valid SSN.
2. For all who checked “No”, verify green card status.
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On the bottom of every employment form, it asks the prospective employee to sign his/her name acknowledging that they recognize that falsifying information on an application is grounds for firing.
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No Fourth Amendment, no racial profiling, no “roundups”, no slippery slope.
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I also recognize it is also not the whole answer, but that would solve many of the problems associated with their impact on the workforce – particularly the lower end of it.

jcapan – yes, that’s how they’re billing Prop 100, as a way to keep the schools afloat.
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And before Brewer signed the immigration legislation, I was all for it.
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But now, I’ve got problems with her, and I’ve got problems with the state.

Absolutely! A good question for Mr. Holder and the Obama administration. If the feds were doing their job, there would be no conflict in Arizona. Could the nasty scent of dirty politics be permeating the air here? All of those new latino voters 53 brags about? Over 60% of Americans FAVOR the Arizona crackdown, so why do you think Obama is dragging his feet? Political expediency? Oh my, NOT Obama! Tell me its not so.

Yeah, earl. Funny how Arizona was only populated by Polish and Irish Americans while Bush was in office… and all those other Bushes. A democrat gets in office and POOF, wetbacks as far as the eye can see. It’s a good thing the Republican-voting business owners can make a little profit with the status quo and a little loose change under the table.
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Oh, and send in your tax money for that multi-billion dollar picket fence that the Republicans will be happy to build but will be skittish to maintain with regular appropriations. They’ll let it die when they get the yearly bill and it’s off the front page… and they find out it needs far more complex multi-level support than their brains can fathom.

I find it depressing how many people fail to understand the concept of Rights, let alone the meaning of the phrase ‘tyranny of the majority’ It’s very easy to get large numbers of people to beleive things that are false. Attacking Iraq was incredibly popular at the time we did it. That doesn’t mean it was right. Everyone knew that Saddam had WMD’s. Except those of us who were reasonably sure he didn’t.

As I said upthread, Hispanic citizens are directly harmed by this law in violation of the 14th amendment. It’s not hard to figure out why. That a plurality of Americans are insufficiently educated in Civics doesn’t change that fact.

Here’s the big problem. As an African American the one thing I understand for sure is how citizens and legal residents of Latino ethnicity are going to be harmed by the perception that this law perpetuates. Just as any black person who has ever held a job in corporate America or a student that’s gone to a university that is outside the historically black college system, the automatic assumption is that any black person holding one of these slots must be the result of affirmative action and is clearly unqualified. Now because of this law and the provision that any ctizen can sue the government for not enforcing the law, anyone who is of Latino heritage is going to be assumed to be an undocumented immigrant. This thing is going to get out of control quickly. Right now, if every white man who claims to have lost a job because of affirmative action was telling the truth there would be no unemployment among African Americans and the unborn descendants for the next three generations would already be collecting a paycheck. Trust me it won’t be long before the 45 million Latino citizens in this country will all look like undocumented immigrants to this crowd and soon none of them will be safe. If they want any peace, they had better avoid Arizona and the states that follow their lead and start thinking abouit changing their last names unless Democrats and sane Reppublicans stand up and turn this thing around..

earljr1:
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Looks like your “revolution” fizzed a bit. eh?
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I guess that one way to get out of the prospect of loosing 3 to 4 million votes is to just pretend it won’t happen.
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You’ve been good at foolerizing yourself over a lot of things, earljr1. The Constitution, the Ten Commandments, and minority voting preferences.
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What’s next earljr1, reality? Water flows uphill now? Day is the new “night”?

Dee:
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You know what the problem is trying to convince them?
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They (the far right) have a death grip on their ignorance. They seem to actually believe this stuff and even if it comes from your own mouth, they are going to either evade the issue, or claim some sort of defect in your character, obviating anything you might say.
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The moniker “IQ53″ didn’t just come to me. Nope. I earned it…

“As I said upthread, Hispanic citizens are directly harmed by this law in violation of the 14th amendment. It’s not hard to figure out why.”
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By the Fourth Amendment as well. The police won’t be stopping John McCain for a bad taillight and then check his SSN, now, will they…

A government that believes in strong immigration controls is much to be admired. Let’s hope the Iraqi government adopts strong controls and detains all those Americans who are in their country illegally.

Not to mention the Japanese, the Filipinos and all those Eastern European and Middle Eastern states where Americans run illegal detention facilities.

Cliff, fair enough. As a local, it’s obviously your (far more informed) choice. Two of my best mates are in Phoenix, but I get a bifurcated view–one is a DFH like me, the other used to raise money for JD. Funny thing is when we all lived in Southern California in the mid-’90s, we looked to AZ as a fairly promising place. I’m the only one who opted out. You there for the long haul?

I don’t particularly like Phoenix – I don’t like the heat, and the whole city feels incredibly disconnected to me. I keep threatening to move out, but I haven’t managed to make good on my threats.
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But it looks like my little protest was for nothing: ballotpedia.org is showing that the measure passed with 63% of the vote.

I dig AZ overall, but I also dig TX and other states supposedly reviled by liberals. But if I had to live there it’d be Flagstaff, or somewhere of equal latitude/elevation.
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So, it sounds like your tax $ will be funding the brown people’s desert gulag?

Just,
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You seem like a very reasonable person. If I were you, I would not want to deal with having Rusty call you an ally.
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Also, his wife says that Rusty’s sleeping white giant is only four inches.

Just,
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We are halfway there.
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I sold cars for about a year. In NY driver’s licenses for resident aliens has immigration information on it. I once sold a car (It was a new car dealership, not used – huge difference in integrity) to a resident alien and we got delayed for weeks because he had to update some of his information to show he was authorized to remain in the US for as long as his car loan was in effect.
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Sure, you can easily live in most of NYC without ever driving a car and, sometimes, buy a car without financing, but, in reality, for most people in the US, they will have trouble buying a car while overstaying their visa when using the system NYS has.
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As you may know, there is a strip on the back of all driver’s licenses for the police to swipe. For resident aliens, their immigration status will show up on police screens in NYS.
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Unfortunately it is the business community who hates INS/ICE when they go after employers.

Just,
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This is not just you, and not just conservatives, but, when I right clicked USAG to know if you meant US Attorney General or something else, I got this: The USA Gymnastics Team.
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This OT, but, abbreviations can be very unclear.
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By default, due to their being more liberal than conservative posters, I find even more confusing abbreviations with liberals, to be fair.
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I kept on wondering who Sacred’s milligram was. (MIL = Mother-in-law).

Textee,
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I want to thank you for, this one time, not bringing up your favorite topic of gay sex for this one entry.

A few years ago I had a landlady who listened to Michael Savage.

At one point, she turned to me and asked, “Why would anybody hire an illegal alien?”

I then smirked and said, “I don’t know, why do you?”

She was baffled for a moment until I explained that the super cheap but very good legal Mexican contractor she had working for him brought in two employees, also from Mexico and, also, very good at their job who were illegal.

They were working upstairs earlier that day.

Given the choice between her politics and a low, low price for good work, she didn’t say a word to her contractor about the documentation of the two assistants. They told me themselves, in Spanish that they were here illegally.

Once again your arrogance is outsone by your stupidity. Just as opposition to HC the left plays the race card. Here a law to stop LAW BREAKING illegal immigrants is met with the race card. You have not one shred of evidence of what you speak, but then you never do.

You like Holder and Napolitano have not read nor understand the bill. The left’s Strategy of Ignorance continues.

So you applaud law breakers? No surprise there. At least you did not call them undocumented workers which is the equivalent to calling crack dealers unlicensed pharmacists.

Freep seems to think that there’s no such thing as an unjust law……except of course for the opne that prohibits waterboarding………
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http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_113C.html
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Again, because the denial is so pervasive….
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Everyone arguing about the law, pretends that it only affects resident aliens. This is simply false. The law as written (yes, I’ve read it) creates unequal treatment under the law for Hispanic citizens. This is directly counter to the forteenth amendment which guarantees equal protection under the law for all citizens regardless of race. Simply stating that the cops can’t use race to base their targeting decisions when they in fact have no other basis BUT race to do so, is to deny simple reality.

“So you applaud law breakers? ”
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A class B misdemeanor lawbreaker, I do admit to not reporting.
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That is the category for being an illegal immigrant.
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It is the same status as loitering.
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What I truly applauded was the work they were getting done. I was doing some wall paper removal for that landlady and, even though it cost me a chance to make a few bucks (frankly, she did not pay well) I admire a job well done even if they are doing something as criminal as teenagers standing around the local Baskin Robins being annoying.
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Believe me, loitering, defined as being annoying on privately owned, publicly accessed property were enforced, you’d have a criminal record worse than Al Capone.

“Freep seems to think that there’s no such thing as an unjust law……except of course for the opne that prohibits waterboarding”

Does the left ever make a statement about someone with any truth or do you consider repeated mass generalizations about people (hey isn’t that profiling?). I have never commented one way or the other on waterboarding.

For clarity you and your cohorts are ok with breaking the law if YOU feel it is “unjust”? Clarify for me then what laws do you consider “just” and not be broken at will? Where do you draw the law at what laws should be followed or broken.

This AZ law continues to be condemned by folks who haven’t read it. And not one incident has occurred that the fear-mongering the left has raised has come to pass. Over 70% of AZ residents and 70% of Americans approve of the law which the left’s only defense can be it’s usual arrogance of how stupid the people are and how much smarter the enlightened left is. That’s a joke and not a defense.

“Over 70% of AZ residents and 70% of Americans approve of the law which the left’s only defense can be it’s usual arrogance of how stupid the people are and how much smarter the enlightened left is. That’s a joke and not a defense.”
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As I pointed out to 3X, somebody else pointed out to another commentator and I point out to you that the constitution is not a popularity contest.
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It is a document used for judicial review since Marbery vs Madison in 1803 to determine if law, popular or not, protect the rights of those who are in the minority or are non-voters.
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If you had a survey of how the legal, white voters Southern states which had Jim Crow laws felt about them, you would have found similar results.
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So, just as I presume that you very strongly support the results of the Civil Rights Movement in removing segregation, it may, likely be that your daughter forty years from now will be happy about a supreme court ruling against the Arizona law.
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It is strange that you keep on saying that there is are liberal talking points, but, three conservatives on this blog (apparently not reading much of other posts) have all brought up the popularity of the law when the real topic is the fairness and/or constitutionality of this Arizona law.

“…which is the equivalent to calling crack dealers unlicensed pharmacists.”
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You made a funny!
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I actually cracked a smile on that one.
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However, think this through.
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What does a pharmacist do?
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He takes provides usually non-intoxicating substances and provides them as a doctor requests.
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Doctors do not ever recommend crack.
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What is the act these people are doing which is a misdemeanor?
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Working.
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What do you call a person who violates a parking law: and illegal parker?
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No.
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What would we call your grandparents, great grandparents or ancestors? Aliens.
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Well, in your case, they may have actually been from a planet far, far away, so, never mind.

“It is strange that you keep on saying that there is are liberal talking points, but, three conservatives on this blog”

So are you annoyed that we know you are a decided minority in your opinion? And are you saying that the virtually unanimous talking point that the bill is unconstitutional (yet to be proven) is just brillaince on the part of every liberal. The liberals here come to the same conclusion on every topic but your independent but THREE conservative agree and its a conspiracy and we have done mind melds with Rush, Beck etc.

Delusional and paranoid!

==

And exactly why would I be happy about a law where despite, to quote AG Blumenthal, liberal mis-speaks (lies) no rights are violated be struck down. The lefts answer is to ignore this law just as they have others.

“.
What is the act these people are doing which is a misdemeanor?
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Working.
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Amazing how you compound liberal stupidity with liberal “facts”.

First they are breaking the law by being here illegally, plain and simple. To follow your idiot logic to its natural conclusion why have border guards and immigration laws at all. Why not let Al Qaeda just come through the borders?
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Working? So every illegal immigrant is here working? With 9.9% unemployment why should this countries first concern not employment for its citizens? Or why haven’t the massive unemployed taken any of these jobs? Is it because we made it easy for them with welfare, food stamps and soon to be HC? As Nancy Pelosi says quit your job and do what you want? Nice formula for success.

==
Our parents, grandparents and great grand parents came to this country legally, in large part, assimilated with the culture, learned English and supported this country while cherishing their own culture. Your vision has a jail break at the borders, thumb their nose at American cultures, language and laws.

So were your grandparents criminals?

And not one incident has occurred that the fear-mongering the left has raised has come to pass

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The law has not yet taken effect.
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When you complain about people who ‘haven’t read it’ you might want to make sure you have your most basic facts straight.
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Unlike some commenters, i’m not even going to argue about how resident aliens get handled. I am simply going to reiterate that the law unjustly affect Hispanic citizens and is therefore the wrong solution to the problem.

It is Unconstitutional as written.

“That will provide a lot of 10 hr piecework days for the unemployed here. And we certainly would want to pay them a living wage also so you can get your lettuce for $5 a head.”

==
This is priceless. The liberal left, guardians of the labor unions favor letting migrant workers work for sub-par wages? Is it because unlike most union members which is pre-dominantly white, that these farm workers are brown skinned? Can’t wait to hear the spin and rationale for this brillinace.

==
“Make the employer penalty $10,000 per employee per day for as many days as you can prove they were working for a company and then see it stop”

Typical liberal response attack the corporations but no action for the illegal. So companies stop hiring the illegals so now we have millions unemployed running around which means they turn to crime or government dole. Brilliant solution!
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“I right clicked USAG to know if you meant US Attorney General or something else, I got this: The USA Gymnastics Team.”

Either interpretation in this case is correct. Holder has done more twists and flips than Mary Lou Retton

“Why not let Al Qaeda just come through the borders?”
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That is not even slightly similar to this issue. Do you think a terrorist organization as sophisticated as Al Qaeda would be dumb enough to loose their operatives from traffic stop. Only McVeigh, one of your right wing, flag waving American buddies was so dumb as to drive a car with no license plates to get himself caught.
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“So every illegal immigrant is here working?”
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No, only the ones we are debating. If some legal Lithuanians brought over grandma on a tourist visa and she lives in their house without working, this is not particularly upsetting to anybody. Only working illegal aliens are of concern. If you found out that your neighbor’s non-working 79 year old father had overstayed a tourist visa you would not be too upset.
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“[previous immigrants]… assimilated with the culture, learned English and supported this country while cherishing their own culture.” Check your history books and you will find that Irish, German, Jewish and Italian immigrants started their own neighborhoods where (except for Irish, of course) spoke their own language for decades. Their children were bilingual and their grandchildren spoke English only. Factory and farm jobs of days gone by do not need literacy and, therefore, had illiterate Americans and non-English speaking immigrants. Go to any city in the US and you can, historically, find that each and every neighborhood was dominated by one ethnic group or another as little as forty years back.
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“Your vision has a jail break at the borders, thumb their nose at American cultures, language and laws.”
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No more than, unless you are full blooded English or Irish, your ancestors were thumbing their nose at American culture.
.
“So were your grandparents criminals?”
.
All of my grandparents were born in New York City.
.
My great and great-great grandparents from Ireland and Germany predated even Ellis Island. They were not checked for any criminal background since that was not possible. They were checked for communicable diseases and had none. Without any exams or tests they were sworn in as American citizens within weeks of arrival.

Unlike some commenters, i’m not even going to argue about how resident aliens get handled. I am simply going to reiterate that the law unjustly affect Hispanic citizens and is therefore the wrong solution to the problem.

It is Unconstitutional as written.

==
Repeating this does not make it so. The sheriffs in AZ have been addressing illegals for years and the fear-mongering you describe again without proof has not happened nor will it when does.
=

Using your logic on how the law unfairly affects Hispanics, do you think it’s unfair that a larger percentage of tax audits on done on the wealthy. By your logic it would be unfair to single them out at higher rates than others.

“Al Qaeda would be dumb enough to loose their operatives from traffic stop.”

Uh isn’t that how we caught the bombers for the 1993 WTC bombing?
==
“Go to any city in the US and you can, historically, find that each and every neighborhood was dominated by one ethnic group or another as little as forty years back”

Yes just as I said. They celebrated their culture but were Americans which you can not honestly say about the illegal immigrants today form Mexico. The parents back then made their children learn English and go to school. That strong ethic to be successful is rapidly disappearing from our landscape.
==

“No more than, unless you are full blooded English or Irish, your ancestors were thumbing their nose at American culture”

Another assertion made on blatant stupidity. By your own family history you note that they obey all the laws (as they existed). Crossing illegally now even as a misdemeanor as you say is law breaking nonetheless. Your moral equivalence is pathetic.

“By your logic it would be unfair to single them out at higher rates than others.”
.
If I steal a candy bar and you rob the Federal Reserve, are they equally bad?
.
Poor and middle income people can not cheat the government of as much tax money since they do not owe as much tax money as the wealthy may.
.
(Of course you are not going to try to rob the Federal Reserve. I, also, am not going to steal a candy bar.)
.
It is a question, in reality, in that comparison if there is a difference between an illegal blue eyed blond haired Polish illegal immigrant than a Latino illegal immigrant.
.
They are identical in committing a class B misdemeanor. However, in reality the law will not be enforced identically.
.
It, also, does not shield American citizens from being detained for failing to have identification.

Anyone notice the irony that freep is relying on the good faith of the government to not trample his rights. So much for conservative principles.

“The parents back then made their children learn English and go to school.”
.
So, you are saying that Latinos would not double or tripple their income by learning English if they could and that they want their children to be stuck in non-speaking jobs at minimum wage?
.
They are identical in their desire to speak English. If your grandparents were non-English speakers I find it totally unimaginable that they obtained perfect English within a year or two of arrival.
.
“That strong ethic to be successful is rapidly disappearing from our landscape.”
.
So, these people take their lives in their hands crossing over mountains and drowning by the hundreds in the Southern California canal or take other risks because they want to be as poor as they used to be?
.
You’ve got it backwards.
.
Only the most ambitious of these peoples from around the world attempt to come to the United States legally or illegally.
.
“Crossing illegally now even as a misdemeanor as you say is law breaking nonetheless.”
.
If I had evidence of them J walking then it wouldn’t be morally beneath what illegals do today.
.
I never heard it, but, I do strongly suspect that all of my immigrant ancestors had J walked.

Paul,
.
First; your argument relies on a homogeneous appearacne of Hispanics, which is not the case.
.
Second; your argument exhibits a complete lack of faith in the integrity of the enforcement officials in Arizona. Are you prejudiced against law enforcement?
.
Third; Although your OPINION is that the law is unconstitutional, you ignore that the Arizona law mirrors currently unenforced FEDERAL laws….are they unconstitutional as well?
.
Forth; The “field” interpretation of the Arizona law will be done in split seconds by a certified and qualified ( for the most part ) professional…do you distrust and malign other professionals as you have law enforcement professional….your dentist makes decisions while treating you…do you review them in advance? Do you question his qualifications?…I doubt it, since oyu have screend hif as your personal physician, you TRUST him to provide professional and competent services unless given reason to the contrary.
.
Many of your arguments are directly responsible for the death of a Nigerian immigranty in NYC a couple of years ago…you are second-guessing the police in advance rather than trusting them until given reason to the contrary.

“So much for conservative principles.”
.
Oh, come on, Paul, we all know from the dubbya regime that “conservative principals” is an oxymoron.

Astonishing.
All these people who complain incessantly about how incompetent the government is, who’ve never met a federal agency thay didn’t hate and who routinely hold up their local DMV as the perfect example of government incompetence nevertheless think that I should just shut up and trust Arizona Troopers as trained professionals who are therefore incapable of error. Perhaps the Haitian immigrant who was sodomized with broom handle by police in NYC might have a different take on the whole business.

I think it would be much better to go after the employers.
.
Racial profiling will occur, by definition.
.
it would be a much cleaner, and quicker way of getting those jobs back in the hands of Americans, where they belong.
.
However, I don’t think though you know much of anything about minority issues and are not able to comprehend anything besides what Rush Limbaugh has told you to believe.

Paul Dirks:
.
People like freeinpa will never change their minds.
.
Personally, I’ll have to take solace in the fact that they will have to put Rush Limbaugh’s claim that they don’t need diversity to win to the acid test…

“The “field” interpretation of the Arizona law will be done in split seconds by a certified and qualified ( for the most part ) professional…do you distrust and malign other professionals as you have law enforcement.”
.
Your second point, depending upon jurisdiction, law enforcement requires two years of college to exclusively a high school diploma with academies lasting from as long as six months down to as little as three weeks. Since there is no known science to detecting immigration status from sight, sound or smell, the guess of law enforcement in this case is not any greater than the guess of a civilian.
.
Your third point, Federal law enforcement outside of the border patrol with a very limited jurisdiction along the Mexican border do not have the authority to check immigration status prior to an arrest.
.
For your forth point, see your second point.
.
For the 1999 shooting of Amadou Diallo, the entire New York City’s Street Crimes Unit was completely disbanded. All of the officers not involved in the shooting were sent to other divisions and all of the officers involved were dismissed. The city got sued and lost millions of dollars since the procedures were unconstitutional.
.
Immigration status was not involved.
.
NYC has some of the hardest hiring standards in the country and this division received additional specialized training and still failed.
.
You just set up the best argument against this law by bringing up Amadou Diallo.
.
It’s too bad you aren’t liberal. You would have made a great argument on the other side of the issue.

“All these people who complain incessantly about how incompetent the government is, who’ve never met a federal agency thay didn’t hate and who routinely hold up their local DMV as the perfect example of government incompetence nevertheless think that I should just shut up and trust Arizona Troopers as trained professionals who are therefore incapable of error.”
.
From now on, we can copy and paste conservative arguments and replace the word “police” with the EPA, the FDA, The SEC or whoever and have their argument back in their own faces.
.
“The “field” interpretation of the IRS will be done in split seconds by a certified and qualified ( for the most part ) professional…do you distrust and malign other professionals as you have tax professional….your dentist makes decisions while treating you…do you review them in advance? Do you question his qualifications?…I doubt it, since oyu have screend hif as your personal physician, you TRUST him to provide professional and competent services unless given reason to the contrary.”
.
I’d take out the typos, but, it works perfectly.

BTW: I have equal trust/distrust for law enforcement and the military as I do the IRS or any other agency of city, state or federal government. As a general rule I trust them all. It is only when I have a specific reason to distrust an individual that I would.
.
I won’t forget a cop who lied in court against me about a ticket here in NYC when I was driving a cab. This was, interestingly enough, when I was making plans to join the NYPD.
.
I, still, except for that guy, trust both law enforcement and the other government agencies.

“So companies stop hiring the illegals so now we have millions unemployed running around which means they turn to crime or government dole. Brilliant solution!”
.
Many may remember that right after 9/11 when the economy momentarily completely tanked that there were many illegal immigrants returning to their country of origin.
.
Except in cases of starvation and other limited circumstance, crime is an issue of individual character and immigration is about finding honest wages for work.
.
Should I link it again that both illegal and legal immigrants have half of the crime rate of American citizens before even taking into account that they are of the age, economic and educational background identical to the highest crime group of American citizens?
.
“…or government dole.”
.
They are, by definition, not qualified for poverty relief.
.
They do, when hungry and far away from home walk into the offices of INS and turn themselves in to get prison food while getting driven or flown back to their home country.

patricksartor IQ53:

Well it is complete dumb and dumber have now weighed in on this.
“If I steal a candy bar and you rob the Federal Reserve, are they equally bad?”
==
Nice trying to change the argument since once agian a liberal position has the wheels fall off the wagon as you take one stance and apply it tp another. I was not arguing levels of crime but appearance (but not proved) profiling will take place. Does the IRS not “profilie” high income earners? And the answer is yes! And why? Because the probability is they might have issues. Let’s see AZ has a problem with illegal Hispanics so you would search who? Blonde Swedish airline hostesses? Liberals would. Just like we body cavity search 80 year grandmothers with artificial hips while Muslims on the “no fly” can board unobstructed.

==
”
People like freeinpa will never change their minds.”

True especially when following principles something you don’t have. The logic you use shows liberalism is just a mental disorder.

==
“From now on, we can copy and paste conservative arguments and replace the word “police” with the EPA, the FDA, The SEC or whoever and have their argument back in their own faces”

Small difference Einstein. Creating bureaucracy and gumming up the works of productive people hardly carries the risk of death that police and border patrol face daily. But as you have shown you are more comfortable aiding law breakers than police.
==
“I won’t forget a cop who lied in court against me about a ticket here in NYC when I was driving a cab. This was, interestingly enough, when I was making plans to join the NYPD.”

Looks like NYC dodged a bullet and you actuality had a job up to your level of competence.

“Anyone notice the irony that freep is relying on the good faith of the government to not trample his rights. So much for conservative principles.”

Once again we have a liberal trying to discern conservative philosophy, incorrectly again. We believe in limited government and prefer states dealing with issues. But don’t liberals love government meddling at all levels?

==
Since you are so concerned about “rights” how about the chef at the White House who was censored.
I guess Obama’s meal choices are now a matter of national security. Or maybe he and MIchelle were stuffing themselves with fat-laden food and didn’t want their ongoing hypocrisy spread again. So much for an open administration.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local-beat/Tweet-This-Just-Cook-94238034.html

1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
.
Requiring Hispanic Americans to prove citizenship while not requiring everyone to do the same is a direct violation of the equal protection clause.
.
Most people arguing about this try to pretend that the law doesn’t target Hispanics or adversly affect Hispanic citizens. Interesting that freep’s reaction is “Of course it does, so what?!”

You are now arguing with yourself. You say go after the employers. Of course liberals have to demonize someone except who is responsible- the illegal immigrants. Then you say racial profiling will occur by definition. Then what is your claim the problem with the AZ law is exactly?

So if you can demonize a business profiling is ok?

=

”
However, I don’t think though you know much of anything about minority issues and are not able to comprehend anything besides what Rush Limbaugh has told you to believe.”

Come on say it. I know you want to — it’s all about race. And your statement is another 53 “fact” . You get dumber by the day and your best argument here is arguing against yourself. Sit down before you truly hurt yourself.

Does the law specifically state Hispanics? I don’t think so. But out of the many illegals here what percent are Hispanic? Probably more than 10%

Since they must be stopped for another offense first you argument that it singles them out by race is the fear mongering. Will there mistakes be made? Yes. Just like the IRS sells someone’s house for a tax debt not owed. Yet the IRS can do it without the alleged offender being innocent until proven guilty. But liberals have no qualms with that.It is no more a burden than showing ID for buying cigarettes or alcohol. And these checks are not done on everyone equally.

The argument from the left continues to be fear-mongering with the basis that they lose additions to their base with he promise of taxpayer money for votes. Well at least that is a principle a corrupt one.

Obama now speaking says their is “potential” for it being applied in a discriminatory manner. Quick for for Obambi many laws do.

“Most people arguing about this try to pretend that the law doesn’t target Hispanics or adversly affect Hispanic citizens. Interesting that freep’s reaction is “Of course it does, so what?!”

==
If one were of sound mind would you not expect a law to be targeted to areas or groups that have a high probability of not abiding by the law?

That is like writing a law that says you are not allowed to swim in the desert. Somehow the argument of abridging the right to do something illegal is just a tad STUPID!

“Does the IRS not “profilie” high income earners? And the answer is yes! And why? Because the probability is they might have issues.”
.
Wrong. High income individuals are much more likely to have tax professionals do their taxes and, therefore, less likely to make an error.
.
It is the amount of money to be found that is the reason the IRS goes for high income individuals.

.
“Small difference Einstein. Creating bureaucracy and gumming up the works of productive people..”
.
So, being taken into custody on a weekday or other workday does not decrease productivity since they can do the same work from a jail cell while their wife looks up their paperwork. In most blue collar jobs, being absent due to being in jail is grounds for instant termination.
.
“.. hardly carries the risk of death that police and border patrol face daily…”
.
So, you are saying that, since they are under stress cops make worse decisions that the IRS does. This is probably true since even most wingnuts do not shoot pocket protector wielding IRS agents.
.
“But as you have shown you are more comfortable aiding law breakers than police…”
.
By applying to the police department itself means that I do not aid police? So, when I join the Auxiliary does that make me somebody who hates cops?
.
“We believe in limited government…”
.
But you want the government taking legal residents and citizens into custody?
.
“.. and prefer states dealing with issues..”
.
So you don’t want the border patrol in Arizona?
.
“…Since you are so concerned about “rights” how about the chef at the White House who was censored…”
.
Twitter gets you fired in 140 characters or less
The ‘it’ social networking tool of the hour streamlines your humiliation
.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29796962/#storyContinued
.
If you are not self employed, on the job everybody is “censored”.
.
When he gets home the WH chef is not discouraged from tweeting all he wants.

Every time you open my mouth you help prove my point. You are asserting that being Hispanic means you are likely to be violating the law while simultaneously denying that the law targets Hispanics.
.
There are large numbers of Hipsanic citizens who rights are being abridged by the law.
.
It is Unconstitutional and no amount of hand-waving can change that simple fact.

“But liberals have no qualms with that.It is no more a burden than showing ID for buying cigarettes or alcohol. And these checks are not done on everyone equally.”
.
Store clerks do not have the authority to take you into custody and are not government employees. I guess that every bar, convenience store selling cigarettes and every package store should arrest people according to your thinking. Maybe the punishment for trying to buy under age should be slave labor at the convenience store, package store or bar busing tables and, that way, with all of that free labor from underage buyers, there would be no market for hiring undocumented workers for the job.
.
You say you have a twelve year old daughter. Aren’t you glad that she is unable to buy booze and cigarettes?
.
“If one were of sound mind would you not expect a law to be targeted to areas or groups that have a high probability of not abiding by the law?”
.
Well, considering that I have, literally, a federal case against Greonhagen and you are only one of a half dozen right wingers in the swamp, I guess that the FBI should be monitoring you. You fit the profile perfectly.
.
Of course, a liberal, including myself, would find that completely wrong since you, yourself, have proven yourself to be nothing more than misinformed and annoying with absolutely no probable cause at all.

“If one were of sound mind would you not expect a law to be targeted to areas or groups that have a high probability of not abiding by the law?”
.
Immigrants have half of the probability of being arrested for a felony as an American born person.
.
So, should the cops stay exclusively in neighborhoods without immigrants and check your car for drugs every few days?

“The liberals here come to the same conclusion on every topic but your independent but THREE conservative agree and its a conspiracy and we have done mind melds with Rush, Beck etc.

Delusional and paranoid!”
.
Notice the absolute diversity of arguments among liberals here.
.
We all have had a variety of news sources and, although coming to the same conclusion (when we all agree – which is not always the case) we use different arguments.
.
“… we have done mind melds with Rush, Beck etc.”
.
Is this a Star Trek reference?
.
Conservative commentators, as expected, often read or listen to other conservative commentators and, often use similar or identical arguments.
.
I just noticed that all of you a huge majority of the time use exactly the same arguments sometimes right down to the same exact words meaning only that you all listen to, watch or read (if you know how to read – still unknown from your responses) conservative sources.
.
I haven’t heard Rachel Maddow since I left the taxi business a few years ago, but, with my own mind come to many of the same conclusions.
.
I think one reason Air America didn’t make it big was that my reaction, among other people, to liberal commentary has been “no sht”.

It’s called probabilities. If the largest percentage of illegals are Hispanic than it stands to reason you would spend most of their time there.

Let’s go back to the IRS audit since kibs love taxes. The IRS targets who- rich people is that profiling? Do they target people at certain income levels? Yes If that level for sake of argument is $150,000 do they audit all those making more than $150K? No! Are they then targeting unfairly certain people?

How is that different than you have illegals from a certain country (or rich) in certain areas (income level) but have other characteristics? Are all stopped (audited) no. In the AZ bill they needs to be another offense. With the IRS, probable cause is nto even considered.

I hope to see you protesting the IRS building soon since right s are violated constantly

==
”
Immigrants have half of the probability of being arrested for a felony as an American born person”

Your first incorrect assumption (again) is all immigrants are legal. I suspect the probability increases among illegals. Second, I would assume the police could target folks that have a higher probability of committing those crimes. You would call it profiling. I would call it more efficient use of time and funds while increasing our safety. You would let the inmates run the zoo.

==
“You say you have a twelve year old daughter. Aren’t you glad that she is unable to buy booze and cigarettes?”

No I would prefer to have no law for age for these. It should be the parents responsibility to deal with those issues.

But I am sure you are glad that my 12 year old daughter could get an abortion without my knowledge or consent But a cigarette heavens no, we must stop that evil.

Liberalism is really brain damaged

“But I am sure you are glad that my 12 year old daughter could get an abortion without my knowledge or consent But a cigarette heavens no, we must stop that evil.”
.
For the fifth time, I am pro-life.
.
You, obviously, see your ideology as unbreakable and indivisible.
.
On the right we have Republicans claiming to care about the unborn, but, they make sure through their anti-labor, anti-consumer and, even, anti-investor policies as well as a hatred of government preventing loans high enough for higher education so that Mom and Dad will ruin their lives by having a child.
.
On the left you have Democrats. With few exceptions (as their are pro-choice Republicans) Democrats are pro-choice. But, if you want to unionize so that you can earn enough to support Jr, Democrats will make sure that this is possible. If you want to get student loans large enough to cover your tuition before you get your woman pregnant, the extreme left of the Democratic party can would help. If you are too poor to buy food for yourself and your children, the right wing of the Republic party would starve you and your children.
.
I am a pro-life Democrat.
.
To me, attacking the causes of abortion (poverty) attacks the demand for abortion.
.
Republicans are in love with having large corporations tell us what to do and to castrate the government so tha we can not protect our ability to have the resources to take care of children.
.
Sorry, Freeinpa, you’ve got the wrong guy.
.
Now, I guess you have to wait until Glenn Beck or whatever nut you listen to tells you how to respond to a pro-life Democrat.
.
We all know that if Roe vs Wade were overturned, the Republic Party would get none of the religious and/or pro-life vote and dissapear.
.
That is why in six years of total Republic Party control zero was done to decrease abortion.
.
If abortion stops, your party vanishes.

I think freeinpa’s wife, if he has one, must have kicked him out.
.
Still mad at the world, I guess.
.
Comment 9.1 points out how to avoid any problems with either the Fourth or the Fourteenth Amendments. Databases are nice because they can be addressed record by record. no profiling, no nothing.
.
Plus, employment laws permit the dismissing those employees that provide false information on their applications.

Wow. freeinpa has rabies, I think…

“…police could target folks that have a higher probability of committing those crimes.”
.
You’ve made a wonderful argument as to why it is unconstitutional.
.
It will involve profiling and profiling is unconstitutional.
.
Just as ICE would put more effort into a chicken processing plant with 400 workers including a very high chance of 300 or more being illegal than it would going to one Wendy’s in rural America to check out if one young woman who has an accent, the IRS goes for the big bucks hidden over the small bucks hidden.
.
Screw up on the income taxes you owe at 25,000 and you will owe far fewer dollars than for a person making a million dollars who screws up.
.
So ICE goes for the large groups of undocumented workers and the IRS goes for the largest number of cheated dollars.

Freeinpa,
.
The highest amount of illegal drug use was done by people under 30 in the year 1980.
.
You are 55.
.
You were born in 1955.
.
In 1980 you were 25.
.
You are American born.
.
American born people are the ones most likely to use drugs.
.
So, by your own reasoning, you should either have had the police pulling you over the most in 1980 or, since drug use has been steadily declining since 1980, still have the police search your car for weed.
.
Is that okay with you that you fit the profile of a marijuana user and, therefore, should get pulled over as often as possible since weed is a felony and being an illegal immigrant is a misdemeanor?

Here are my explanation why pro-life Democrats in office are the only real pro-lifers:
.
20% of Americans are Catholic.
.
Half vote for Republicans mostly due to their stand abortion.
.
25% of Americans call themselves Born again Christians. 60% of that 25% are Republican. So, that is 15% of the vote.
.
Republicans average about 50% of the vote.
.
If Roe vs Wade is overturned, then born again Christians and half of all Catholics will not vote Republican.
.
Catholics (10%) + Born again Christians (15%) = 25% of all votes.
.
So, the Republic Party would go from about 50% of all votes down to 25% of all votes.
.
So, if you are a Republican seeking Christian votes, your worst nightmare is that Roe vs Wade gets overturned. Because, if it does, you would then be the party of huge business relative to small business, the party against labor, the party against investors relative to management, the party against consumers relative to business as well as the party of attacking extra countries right on time for election season.
.
The Republic Party would just vanish if it were not for Roe vs Wade.
.
That is why your party did nothing about abortion after bamboozling your vote from you.

Plus, employment laws permit the dismissing those employees that provide false information on their applications.
==
So you make the corporations do one the the jobs government should do (as opposed to HC). It still doesn’t answer what then happens to the illegal running around the US.

Don’t worry the fixes are coming and you won’t like any of them as your beliefs system crumbles under the weight of its stupidity.

Just like this one:

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/05/doj_attorney_in_charge_of_blac.html

You are 55.
.
You were born in 1955.
.
In 1980 you were 25.
.
You are American born.
.==
3 of 4 assumptions wrong. Not surprising. Nor is it surprising your conclusion are wrong as well. But let’s assume you are right (ok its a real stretch). The analogy to the AZ law is missing one tiny piece that you either ignore or like Paul dismiss as not happening (wrong assumptions again). The officer must have stopped them for another offense.

Liberals have no problems with random stops for drinking, seat belts (and other nanny state nonsense) but heavens you can’t do the same for illegals.

The rest of your nonsense is not worth reading since you can’t possibly draw any sensible conclusions because you pull assumptions out of your ass.

Wow another idiotic pointless post by the brain damaged pet of the left.

On the right we have Republicans claiming to care about the unborn, but, they make sure through their anti-labor, anti-consumer and, even, anti-investor policies as well as a hatred of government preventing loans high enough for higher education so that Mom and Dad will ruin their lives by having a child
==

Is this more delusion and assumptions based on “liberal fact” or is it just the latest thinly disguised argument for the government takeover of our lives?
==
anti-labor? Hardly. Anti-union? Yes they have destroyed the steel, airline, and auto industries and have crippled education.

Hatred of government preventing loans? Where do you get this crap

Admit it you wanted to join the NYPD because you really thought they just sat around and ate donuts didn’t you!

“Liberals have no problems with random stops for drinking…”
.
In most states it has been found unconstitutional to have a roadblock checking for drunken driving if that is what you mean.
.
I knew a really nice girl in 1990. She was my age. She didn’t drink, which was fine, since, at that time I didn’t either. (I had my first drink just before I turned 20). Everybody said I should have asked her out. Six months later she was dead. She and her, also, sober best friend were killed crossing at the crosswalk with the light when a drunk diver killed them both.
.
So you bet your a$$ I want drunk drivers pulled over!
.
“seat belts”
.
I do not know of any state that allows police to pull somebody over exclusively just for not wearing a seat belt.
.
BTW: Are you drunk now, or is that just your writing style?

I know that you can not imagine anybody disagreeing with you and call them brain damaged since they are not in lockstep with you, but “pet of the left” makes no sense.
.
How many drinks have you had so far?

paul @ 13.6
.
“Astonishing.
All these people who complain incessantly about how incompetent the government is, who’ve never met a federal agency thay didn’t hate and who routinely hold up their local DMV as the perfect example of government incompetence nevertheless think that I should just shut up and trust Arizona Troopers as trained professionals who are therefore incapable of error. Perhaps the Haitian immigrant who was sodomized with broom handle by police in NYC might have a different take on the whole business.”
.
Paul,

Please stop changing the point and muddying the water…the Louema incident in NYC was horrible and illegal and wrong on so many levels but it has exactly NOTHING to do with this thread.
.
“I should just shut up and trust Arizona Troopers as trained professionals who are therefore incapable of error”
.
The above statement is a perversion of logic. And I believe that you know it.
.
No one said or believes that they are incapable if error, but tell me…..have you had occasion to call 911 and prayed that one of these imperfect humans with varying degree of training can remedy you dilema at the time of the call?
.
so lets you and I stop the foolishness and get real.
.
YES some Hispanic US citizens will be affected…but and imperfect solution is better than NO SOLUTION.
This is certainly not a gross breach of the US Constitution and again I ask, are the comparable FEDERAL laws unconstitutionsl as well?
.
In NJ Col. Carl A, Williams a director of the NJ State Police justified stopping a disproportinate number of blacks and hispanics on the NJ Turnpike by saying that the largest percentage of those stopped and subsequently arrested for drug trafficking were in-fact black or hispanic.
.
“Today with this drug problem, the drug problem is cocaine or marijuana,” Williams was quoted as saying in the article. “It is most likely a minority group that’s involved with that.”
.
He lost his job in a firestorm of publicity and all-out assault by the ACLU and our pseudo republican govenor Christie Todd Whitman…..He WAS telling the truth.
.
The kicker is that I feel no safer as a result of his departure under-fire from the NJ SP and I do not feel that the NJSP are anymore effective as a result of his forced resignation, although I am relatively cetain that the ACLU and other supposee do-gooders were elated at bring down an effective but too honest leader.

.

“…anti-labor? Hardly. Anti-union? Yes they have destroyed the steel, airline, and auto industries and have crippled education.”
.
Wrong on all counts. We already know that you failed Econ 101, so, don’t even try it.
.
“Hatred of government preventing loans?”
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Before Ronald Reagan, student loans covered almost all of tuition at almost all colleges. Today, unless your parents put their house up (and I was one of four and they only had one house) you can borrow $10,000 against tuition of $15,000 to $50,000 per year. Hence, anti-student loans.
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“Admit it you wanted to join the NYPD because you really thought they just sat around and ate donuts didn’t you!”
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I was seeking either Narcotics, in which case I would find out what drugs cause the brain damage to create Republicans (so many former addicts are born again right wingers, I thought that it must be in the drugs) or, if possible, homicide.
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Besides, they pay for college and, with all student loans for law school, I would have had some amazing work credentials after ten years.
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Obviously, most important is that I like hard work for a fair wage. The NYPD is union. There are unions for patrolmen, Sergeants, Detectives and higher officers.
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Do your job and do it well and you know that you can take good care of children. That’s what unions are all about.

“YES some Hispanic US citizens will be affected…but and imperfect solution is better than NO SOLUTION.”
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It would, be nowhere near as good as checking employment records at low wage jobs. Convince employers every time they get back a letter saying that the social security number is a false one to fire the illegal immigrant and there will be no demand to cross borders to be unemployed here relative to earning a barely survivable wage back home.

Freeinpa,
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If you know Farrell, Pa, it was named after the president of US Steel James A. Farrell. He was my grandfather’s uncle.
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Since my great-grandmother, his sister, died giving child birth, he was like a second father to my grandfather.
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I know that Steel is extremely capital intense and relatively expensive to import or export. So, with wages as a tiny portion of costs, if it goes up, it does not have a large over costs.
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Capital investments and land expenses are US disadvantages in Steel these days.
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Sorry, freeper foiled by facts again.

In most states it has been found unconstitutional to have a roadblock checking for drunken driving if that is what you mean.
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And yet I didn’t see all the moaniong and whining that you see with the AZ law. Didn’t see cities calling for boycotts of those states.
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seat belts”
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I do not know of any state that allows police to pull somebody over exclusively just for not wearing a seat belt.
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Do you ever tire of being wrong ?

30 states, the District of Columbia, American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands have primary seat belt laws

http://www.ghsa.org/html/stateinfo/laws/seatbelt_laws.html

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. “She and her, also, sober best friend were killed crossing at the crosswalk with the light when a drunk diver killed them both.
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So you bet your a$$ I want drunk drivers pulled over!”"

Then by that wonderful story what about the border patrol or AZ residents that have been killed by illegals – shouldn’t they be” pulled over” before they kill as well.
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“Wrong on all counts. We already know that you failed Econ 101, so, don’t even try it.

I see you are taking IQ53′s tact. Declare yourself brilliant and dismiss. Sorry the evidence is to the contrary. When your wages and benefits are significantly higher than the competition and have non-productive work rules you destroy the company. ==
“I was seeking either Narcotics, in which case I would find out what drugs cause the brain damage to create Republicans”

Well it does take narcotics to make Repubs brain damage a result that comes naturally to liberals.who are by definition brain damaged.
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“Obviously, most important is that I like hard work for a fair wage”

This is the most laughable and biggest lies that union perpetuate.

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Before Ronald Reagan, student loans covered almost all of tuition at almost all colleges. Today, unless your parents put their house up (and I was one of four and they only had one house) you can borrow $10,000 against tuition of $15,000 to $50,000 per year. Hence, anti-student loans.

No it is called prudent management of taxpayer funds something that is not happening today. See Fannie and Freddie.
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“Do your job and do it well and you know that you can take good care of children. That’s what unions are all about.”

Yes that explains why teachers earnings 70-80k per year strike over a co-pay that would go from $1 to $4 while student scores have flat-lined or declined or fell.

Are you that delusional or just deliberately lie to yourself so you don’t put in gun in your mouth because your core beliefs are a lie.
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Capital investments and land expenses are US disadvantages in Steel these days.

Yes your command of antidotes and economics is stunning (pathetic). It is difficult to afford capital investments when you have labor costs that choke the cash flow life of a company.

My best friend from high school married the daughter of the head of HR from USX. When they were going through tough times and asked for union concessions they got none. The union leaders bragged to its members they had the best contract in the industry. It would prove to be of great consolation to the 25% of their members that got laid off many never to return..

The most successful steel company that has dealt with your “reasons” stell companies fail is Nucor who is just coincidentally non-union. Funny how that works out and how your reasoning strikes out again.
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“pet of the left” makes no sense.

I can see how after coming up with a stream of wrong assumption and conclusions on everything you would have trouble with this.

IQ53 is the little hairy pet that yammers and barks and has no function but annoyance. It is amusing how you condemn me for my statement while he once again poss a brainless nonsensical content devoid post while not addressing his. Typical and time-worn here. Liberals do it time and time again but then you squeal like a school girl when a conservative returns the volley

“I do not know of any state that allows police to pull somebody over exclusively just for not wearing a seat belt.”
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That was correct. I did not know.
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“”She and her, also, sober best friend were killed crossing at the crosswalk with the light when a drunk diver killed them both …shouldn’t they be” pulled over” before they kill as well.”
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You haven’t denied being drunk yet, so, apparently border patrol should be pulling you over.
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When legal and illegal immigrants have a lower chance of committing crimes, it includes DWI, so, the police should spend less time on a class B misdemeanor and more time pulling you over since you are, apparently, not even denying being drunk right now.
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There is no reason to equate border crossing with drunk driving. It is as unrelated as deep thinking is to you – no correlation.
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“..stell companies fail is Nucor who is just coincidentally non-union.”
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I am going to need an alien of some kind to decipher this statement. It is not intelligible at all.
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“Yes that explains why teachers earnings 70-80k per year strike over a co-pay that would go from $1 to $4 while student scores have flat-lined or declined or fell.”
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It requires a graduate degree in many states including New York, Connecticut and Massachusetts to teach. The same one year of graduate school could be used for the same student loan to pay for an MBA, which averages $100,000 per year, $30,000 more per year or, over a career, 1.2 million dollars more.
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For graduate school degrees, teachers are not paid well.
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“…IQ53 is the little hairy pet..”
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From what he posted, 53_3 is bald.
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A bald little pet?
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“It is difficult to afford capital investments when you have labor costs that choke the cash flow life of a company.”
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USX revenue: US$ 16.873 billion.
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Number of employees: 49,000
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Steel
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I can not find more numbers, but, if 100% of it’s costs were labor, that would mean that they are paying $344,346.93 per year.
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Most likely, their labor costs are about 20% of total revenue.
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Hence, it is capital, not labor intensive.
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So, a, say, 10% drop in total wages would only cause a 2% drop in price.
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So, like I said, labor is not the cause of USX being unable to earn a profit.

“$10-$55/Hour. Found: 386 Jobs In Your Area. Hiring Now!”
“Rolling Steel Mill Production Manager Cmc Steel South Carolina $78,208 ”
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http://www.salarylist.com/all-rolling-steel-mill-production-manager-real-jobs-salary.htm
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These are the best numbers I could find.
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Apparently if, jobs start at $10.55 per hour and managers make $78,000 per year, then labor costs might be only 15% of the total.
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Hey, if Uncle Jim, as my father called him, could make a profit, then I have no idea what to say about the morons they have now.

“…squeal like a school girl when a conservative returns the volley.”
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Who is squealing?
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What blog are you reading?
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Over here, every time a conservative finds out that he makes no sense, like when he claims that arresting an illegal immigrant would make an American in Boston not get drunk and run people over that they hurl insults.
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Are you saying that you get drunk because you fear Mexicans, or WTF are you talking about?

“No it is called prudent management of taxpayer funds something that is not happening today. See Fannie and Freddie.”
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What does a house have to do with a student loan.
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The only way to not pay a student loan is to either go to a foreign country to live the rest of your life so that your wages will not be garnished for payment or to die.
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Are you trying to say that young college graduates are spontaneously dropping dead?
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If not, you are making no sense.

“Yes your command of antidotes and economics is stunning (pathetic)… My best friend from high school married the daughter of the head of HR from USX.”
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Did you mean anecdote.
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I do not have antidotes. That would be a doctor, not a commercial real estate agent.
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So, you respond to an anecdote with an anecdote that somebody you once knew got married to somebody who’s job it is to negotiate against labor and.. this person does not agree with the union.
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Shocking.
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You may know that pay cuts or layoff is what unions negotiate. Apparently the union preferred the layoffs by the democratically elected representatives.
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I don’t know why. I wasn’t there. But, this does not mean anything at all.

One last nail in your argument’s coffin from
BusinessWeek
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“Viewpoint: Anti-Union is Bad for Business”
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“Many in the business community are not blind to these benefits, but they still fear that more robust unions will cut into profits and thereby slow down investment and growth. This concern, as far as empirical research can tell, is simply misplaced. Within the U.S., there is no correlation between unionization and the probability of a firm’s failure, and looking around the world, there is no correlation between the extent of unionization and aggregate rates of growth.”
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http://www.businessweek.com/managing/content/jun2009/ca20090623_995100.htm
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So, I guess you would call Businessweek a bunch of liars as a part of a communist conspiracy.