The Decline Of American Zionism

Peter Beinart, writing in the New York Review of Books, has an essay that gets at the heart of the challenge facing groups like Young Judea, Birthright Israel and AIPAC. Zionism in America is on the wane, and this decline is most sharply evident among American Jews under the age of 35. Beinart argues that this decline is a moral one, not just a generational one–a failure to accept a vision of Israel in America that can incorporate the multicultural ethos of the United States. He writes:

Morally, American Zionism is in a downward spiral. If the leaders of groups like AIPAC and the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations do not change course, they will wake up one day to find a younger, Orthodox-dominated, Zionist leadership whose naked hostility to Arabs and Palestinians scares even them, and a mass of secular American Jews who range from apathetic to appalled. Saving liberal Zionism in the United States—so that American Jews can help save liberal Zionism in Israel—is the great American Jewish challenge of our age. And it starts where [Frank] Luntz’s students wanted it to start: by talking frankly about Israel’s current government, by no longer averting our eyes.

Luntz was hired in 2003 by a group of Jewish philanthropists to explain why American Jewish college students were not more vigorously rebutting campus criticism of Israel. Read Beinart’s entire piece here.

Out of fear that you won’t click the link and read the entire piece, let me cut and paste just one more excerpt.

On its website, AIPAC celebrates Israel’s commitment to “free speech and minority rights.” The Conference of Presidents declares that “Israel and the United States share political, moral and intellectual values including democracy, freedom, security and peace.” These groups would never say, as do some in Netanyahu’s coalition, that Israeli Arabs don’t deserve full citizenship and West Bank Palestinians don’t deserve human rights. But in practice, by defending virtually anything any Israeli government does, they make themselves intellectual bodyguards for Israeli leaders who threaten the very liberal values they profess to admire.

After Israel’s elections last February, for instance, Malcolm Hoenlein, executive vice-chairman of the Presidents’ Conference, explained that Avigdor Lieberman’s agenda was “far more moderate than the media has presented it.” Insisting that Lieberman bears no general animus toward Israeli Arabs, Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League, told the Jewish Telegraphic Agency that “He’s not saying expel them. He’s not saying punish them.” (Permanently denying citizenship to their Arab spouses or jailing them if they publicly mourn on Israeli Independence Day evidently does not qualify as punishment.) The ADL has criticized anti-Arab bigotry in the past, and the American Jewish Committee, to its credit, warned that Lieberman’s proposed loyalty oath would “chill Israel’s democratic political debate.” But the Forward summed up the overall response of America’s communal Jewish leadership in its headline “Jewish Leaders Largely Silent on Lieberman’s Role in Government.”

Related Topics: peter beinart, zionism, Uncategorized
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  • destor23

    Any country that tries to mix liberal democracy with state-sanctioned religion is natually going to fall out of step with our secular democracy. The decline of harcore support for any one government (my people right or wrong) should be celebrated — it’s a great step forward for world peace.

  • nflfoghorn

    If what Joe’s saying is that young Jews are neglecting their heritage, that’s a bad sign. You should assimilate with the country’s culture, but not your heritage.
    .
    Oh well, there’s always the Supreme Court.

  • square1

    I could make a smart-ass comment, but the bottom line is that, by and large, the youth of America are not going to accept a separate moral code for Israel than they do for the U.S.

    Loyalty oaths? Imprisoning people for expressing their beliefs? Collective punishment? Military attacks on civilian populations? Denying people self-determination? Apartheid? These are all things that young Americans — particularly those on university campuses — have been taught are wrong, regardless of who practices them. Not even Frank Luntz can buzz-word wholesale changes of people’s moral world-views.

    BTW, this decline in the acceptance of Zionism in America is occurring despite the fact that the present generation of college students directly experienced 9/11 and grew up in its aftermath. As much as any generation in the history of the U.S., they accept “aggressive” national security measures that intrude upon individual rights. And even they cannot defend the racism and moral bankruptcy of the current Israeli leadership.

    I expect the decline to accelerate.

  • 53_3

    I am totally mystified:
    .
    How is American Zionism liberal?!?!?!
    .
    With ties to neoconservatives, with support to a government in Israel that is decidedly conservative, and continually serving up the basest of xenophobia, how can anyone claim any “liberal” affinities whatsoever?
    .
    Is this more GOP “invert speak”?

  • square1

    Joe who?

  • nflfoghorn

    Oops. What I get for assuming :)

  • nflfoghorn

    Would love to see Jews with a good tan speed thru Tuscon to see what happens!

  • pneogy

    “I am totally mystified.”

    As am I.

  • newfreedomblog

    “Loyalty oaths? Imprisoning people for expressing their beliefs? Collective punishment? Military attacks on civilian populations? Denying people self-determination? Apartheid?”

    .
    I’m sorry, is this a reference to China’s policies and programs, or is this what we can expect from Obama’s “Hope and Change”?
    .

    “We are five days away from fundamentally transforming America”….
    .

  • newfreedomblog


    .

  • 53_3

    This is pure Micheal Scherer.
    .
    QED*
    .
    *No, I’m not talking quantum electrodynamics…

  • 53_3

    No, Rusty, that comment was about Israel.
    .
    Try to track context please. Most of us learn this trick in grade school…

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    I’m not buying it. Perhaps -perhaps- the fundamental ideology of Zionism is waning, yet, it my experience, wholesale deference to Israeli policies is as ubiquitous as ever. Even those who might not ascribe to the idea of an ethno-religious purity in Israel still generally accept that Israeli policies are based on Israeli survival. The lack of questioning is deafening. Media still carries the day. Zionism, or at the very least blind concessions to Israeli wishes, will never wane until the American population is accurately informed. This has yet to occur.

  • stuartzechman

    Saving liberal Zionism in the United States—so that American Jews can help save liberal Zionism in Israel—is the great American Jewish challenge of our age.
    .
    That tool Beinart doesn’t mean “liberalism” as in Paul Wellstone, he means “liberalism” as in Rahm Emmanuel.
    .
    You and I know that “liberal Zionism” is a contradiction in terms, given liberalism’s unwavering commitment to the pluralist democracy envisioned by America’s founders.
    .
    Beinart thinks liberalism means something else entirely, which is why that formulation isn’t immediately recognizable to him as a contradictory. That’s the real problem with Beinart’s rhapsodizing about virtually any subject: he holds these bizarre contradictory notions about what “liberals” are and do, mostly derived from a dull and facile view of recent political history in the US.

  • square1

    Rusty: The reason that most of the rest of us laugh at the GOP — and you — is not that we disagree with Republican principles. Its that Republicans simply make up their principles as they go along.
    .
    And it isn’t that you can’t criticize Obama for failing to protect individual rights…Glenn Greenwald does so on a nearly daily basis.
    .
    Its that you can’t criticize Obama while doing business with China, as the GOP has been doing for decades. Or defending every action of Israel. Or fighting for indefinite detentions of U.S. citizens. Or fighting to strip away Miranda warnings. Or defending warrantless wiretapping. I could go on and on.
    .
    The GOP simply has no credibility on the issues. They constantly attack Obama for giving American citizens TOO MANY rights: e.g. rights to counsel, to trial, to confront accusers, etc. And then they turn around and idiotically accuse Obama of “attacking our freedoms”?!? Please name the freedom that Obama has attacked without the full-on encouragement of the GOP.
    .
    Wait, don’t tell me. He wants to “fundamentally transform America.” Ye Gods!

  • square1

    I disagree. The deference to the right wing in Israel by Congress continues unabated. The media too is generally horrendously biased. But the public does not buy it, even if the media doesn’t even present a fair picture of the situation.
    .
    I would compare the situation to the War on Drugs where, for years, challenging the premise that there should even be a drug war was verboten. But a radical shift in drug legalization appears to be on the verge of occurring all across America.
    .
    My guess is that Zionists fear a similar tipping point will occur. One day, it will still be impossible to challenge “Israel’s right to defend itself.” The next day, conventional wisdom will be that Zionism is a discredited and unacceptable ideology.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Square1~
    ~~
    The hypocrisy is glaring. I’ll grant you that. However, what does Democratically-backed “free trade” say about Sino-American relations? Where are Israel’s detractors in the Democratic Party? I’ll bet I could find far more in the GOP than among the Democrats…Lugar, Hagel, Powell, Findley to name a few who’ve served in the Congress. Haven’t seen much Democratic executive action on GITMO or waterboarding as of late, either. Perhaps, you protest too much. Take a look in the mirror, you’ll see the reflection of a timeless American gem: American foreign policy transcends party lines.

  • 53_3

    Thanks for the explanation SZ.
    .
    I’m a lot less savvy than some on the deeper political ins and outs, thus, it is very confusing as there is no apparent difference between the word “liberal” and the word “liberal”.

  • formerlyjames

    While the essay is on the face of it encouraging to formulation of rational thought regarding Zionism and Israel, it does little more than describe what the vast Jewish culture has always been, and the schism between the far right and the far left factions of that culture and the attendant influence of the religious nature of each. Reasonable support of Israel in 1967 does not logically result in irrational support of Israel in this millennium.
    .
    Beyond that Jewish community lie the right wing fundamentalist Christian one in the US and the lackey politicians to whom Exiled refers.
    .
    The problems will get much worse before they get better, regardless of this analysis.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Perhaps my perspective is skewed given that I’m stuck in Appalachia at the moment. I have yet to come across that enlightened segment of society in these parts. But, I’m moving back to NY in a few weeks. Perhaps, it’ll restore my faith in American sensibilities.

  • newfreedomblog

    square1:
    .
    Would you like to point out where I have said to trash the constitution and ask my fellow Americans to give up their Miranda Rights? How I have “Idiotically” made any statements which reflect we should remove our freedoms and liberty, and then attack Obama for doing the same thing? Oh that’s right, you can’t.
    .
    It may even surprise you, I think the most recent terrorist who was caught, thankfully, before he could blow up more New Yorkers SHOULD have all the rights and priviledges as a citizen, and not be treated any differently than you or I. Imagine that!
    .
    Perhaps you confuse me with the RINO Republicans who are the ones associated with the centrists in Washington which are made up of mostly liberal Democrats that want to remove our freedoms. Is that where you are so “idiotically” confused?

  • newfreedomblog

    “Perhaps my perspective is skewed given that I’m stuck in Appalachia at the moment. I have yet to come across that enlightened segment of society in these parts. But, I’m moving back to NY in a few weeks. Perhaps, it’ll restore my faith in American sensibilities.”

    .
    Oh my, Neo-Exiled. Do be careful and not fall into a sink-hole from the old coal mines. How could we ever lose such a great self-professed “American conservative”?
    .
    Neo-Exiled the truly Libertarian/Liberal who claims to be a “Conservative”. Life is indeed a joke.
    .

    “You might be a redneck, if…
    – your email address ends in “over.yonder.com”

    - you connect to the WWW via “Down Home Page”

    - your bumper sticker says “My other computer is a laptop”

    - your laptop has a sticker that says “Protected by Smith & Wesson”

    - you’ve ever doubled the value of your truck by installing a cell phone

    - your baseball cap reads “DEC” instead of “CAT”

    - your computer is worth more than all your cars combined

    - your wife said “either I go or the computer goes”…and you still don’t miss her

    - you’ve ever used a CD-ROM as a coaster for your beer

    - you refer to your computer as “that good ol’ gal”

    - your screen saver is an image of your favorite truck, tractor, or farm animal

    - you start all your emails with “Howdy, y’all”

    - your spell-checker knows words like “Reckon”, “Yonder”, and “Y’all”

    - your cars sit in the yard because your garage is full of dead CPU’s

    - your belt buckle is made from a dead 3.5″ hard drive

    - your computer beep is (insert farm animal sound here)

    - your active newsgroup list includes alt.animal.husbandry

    - hay has been found inside your laptop carrying case

    - you have caught yourself coaxing a slow speed machine with cluck sounds, kiss sounds or giddyup

    - your netscape bookmark list includes EquiVet, net-vet or the OSU agriculture page

  • 53_3

    Am I to infer that Rusty hates Exiled almost as much as me?
    .
    Stoo tayned er, I mean, Stay tuned…

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Disregarding for a moment that you just made no sense, I’ll say this: perhaps, I’ve liberalized a bit during my years here in the Appalachian mountains. Reason? In rural, blindly conservative areas I tend to associate with liberals. In urban, blindly liberal areas, I tend to associate with conservatives. I’m drawn towards those who go against the grain, those who challenge the local status quo mentality. Here, the conservatives are utterly dense, fundamentalist stalwarts, who have not been the most welcoming of neighbors to this New York Catholic. Those more liberally-inclined, however, tend to be more thoughtful, more analytical in their opinions. I like that. When I’m back in NY, surrounded by liberal automatons fervently stroking this administration’s agendas (liberal or otherwise), and espousing nonsensical hyperbole about conservative fascism, etc. then I’ll probably swing more to the right. I like to argue. I challenge anyone who can’t support his or her ill-conceived, dare I say, socially programmed “opinions.”

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Yea, Rusty isn’t my most adoring fan. In fact, he’s the inspiration for my moniker. He long ago banished me from the conservative camp, a camp I still think of home, despite its influx of rabble-rousing refugees.

  • 53_3

    The rise of Jewish groups whose aim is to counter AIPAC is a good sign that if the tipping point hasn’t been reach already, it will be at some point in the future.
    .
    Neoconservative ideology had it’s heyday early in Bush’s Administration, and faded rapidly as both the Lebanon and Gaza wars failed to achieve their objectives.
    .
    I think an inertia exists here. There is a lot of talk of a “deligitimization” process going on, particularly in Europe. Viewed by Israelis in public, it is a purposeful attempt to tear them down, but viewed by others (including myself) it is a consequence of the fact that after 43 years, their policies in the West Bank and Gaza are becoming increasing draconian.

  • 53_3

    I think actually, it is a better thing, because I think that being the recipient of Rusty’s affection might be the equivalent of being kissed by a hagfish.

  • megatronrises

    As a young, American Jew I can attest to the wavering support of Israeli policy. Not of Israel, mind you, but of Israeli policy.
    .
    I think this is largely because of Bibi’s right wing, hawkish coalition. Had the numerous offers made to Arafat about 10 years ago been made today, I think they would be accepted in a heartbeat.
    .
    The primary argument for economic blockades, security fences, etc. had been the general danger and instability of Palestinian occupied regions. Now that the West Bank is getting its act together socially and economically (Gaza’s still a mess, but that’s another story), Israel is hard pressed for reasons to stave off the establishment of another state. Hell, it’d be in the benefit of Israel for the Jewish population to outnumber the Arab population – this can only happen if the West Bank is sequestered as its own state. But mistrust is high among the Bibi government; under him a lasting peace is least likely to happen.
    .
    My generation has often criticized the older one; most Jews of the past generation are Democrats (as our most in mine, but there’s been some political diversification among Jewish youth lately), but hold very conservative views whejn it comes to Israel. That paradigm is changing; young people want to see the world consistently and apply a universal world view to everything. In many ways, I and many other see no need for the sort of doublethink that has defined the American/Israeli relationship. Until the older generation gets this, nothing will change.
    .
    Also, most politicians today are craven when faced with a lobbying force like AIPAC. In general, I think modern lobbyists stifle democracy. I don’t know why they’re not outlawed and put down yet.

  • newfreedomblog

    Suffice it to say, that someone who states
    Disregarding for a moment that you just made no sense”
    , it is equally amazing that you comment back with exactly what I said you are in snark.
    .
    Neo-Exiled or whatever name you give yourself these days is no Conservative no matter how hard you profess to be one in name only. I think you merely confuse your ideological leanings due to your strong catholic background, but that is like saying Obama is not a socialist wanna-be because of his strong association with other socialists growing up.
    .
    Perhaps sitting in a pew for over 20 years has jaded your perspective on political ideology. But in my opinion you are nothing short of a libertarian / liberal.
    .
    Here is a link to take a test. I think you will be surprised at the results if you are truly honest with yourself.
    .
    http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/36981/
    .
    Mine was “Conservative with Libertarian” leanings. What’s your?

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Oh, Rusty, Rusty, Rusty. The “might be a redneck if…” was what made no sense. That’s why I disregarded that, and moved on to the substance of your post, if you could call it that. Is it all becoming clear to you now? I certainly hope so, though, clarity doesn’t seem to be your strong suite.

  • stuartzechman

    Michael Scherer:

    If the leaders of groups like AIPAC and the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations do not change course, they will wake up one day to find a younger, Orthodox-dominated, Zionist leadership whose naked hostility to Arabs and Palestinians scares even them, and a mass of secular American Jews who range from apathetic to appalled. Saving liberal Zionism in the United States—so that American Jews can help save liberal Zionism in Israel—is the great American Jewish challenge of our age.

    There are so many things wrong with this analysis –and its assumptions– that it is difficult to know where to start refuting Beinart.
    .
    Given the current, high levels of hostility to Arabs, Palestinians and Persians by the Likudnik Israel lobby, is Beinart’s problem his usual one, i.e. that the hostility is “naked,” as opposed to his more nuanced, diplomatic hostility? What exactly would “scare” people like Marty Peretz about overt racism? Don’t they still have the anti-semitism card to play, if they need to defend themselves on national television? Don’t they have the Iran card, still?
    .
    Isn’t the real problem here that Peter Beinart is scared of having to defend such obviously apartheid sympathies? Isn’t that the issue with the “liberal Zionism” he mourns –that he cannot face the uncomfortable facts about who his ideological bedfellows really are?
    .
    But really, my question for you, Michael Scherer, is not so much about Beinart’s incoherence and fantasizing as it is about your willingness to uncritically replay Beinart’s storylines.
    .
    Almost the entirety of Beinart’s piece centers around his own feelings, his own anecdotal experiences, his own exposures to American cultural markers around the state of Israel. He then projects his own views onto virtually everyone else, from young people unfamiliar with the past currency of “Exodus,” to his own cohort who somehow “fell in love with Israel.” The effrontery required to cast Beinart’s own personal ideological conflicts onto the population at large, if not the world, is immense. Even worse, it is rife with the lazy inaccuracy of story-telling and script-writing.
    .
    How does Beinart know these things about his fellow Americans with such accuracy? How does he know with such scientific certainty that “these secular Zionists aren’t reproducing themselves” while they send their children off every year to kibbutzim that specialize in fostering a dual-national identity? Frank Luntz at least has polling data, what has Peter Beinart, besides his own circle of acquaintance?
    .
    If Luntz does not “grasp the irony” of a liberal Jewish establishment working toward a Likudnik policy agenda, Beinart surely seems to be blind to the irony of “liberals” (centrist ideologues) such as himself playing such a pivotal role in enabling all kinds of rightist mythologies to be cemented into American mainstream culture. The absurd notion that a nuclear Iran embodies some sort of existential threat (to the United States), or that the only appropriate means of confronting danger from overseas being perpetual occupation come immediately to mind. In his demented quest to convince the American electorate of his distance from liberals (who are quite comfortable with the use of military force in the actual defense of our nation, by the way), Beinart and his pseudo-liberal friends have taken Serious American foreign policy discourse to even more extreme Likudnik lows. Beinart doesn’t seem to possess the sefl-awareness required to assess his role in promoting the occupation policies currently undermining the security of his own country.
    .
    So my question to you is: why the lack of skepticism, Michael Scherer? Why the uncritical reprint? What function have you performed here, besides sending traffic to the New York Review of Books, and continuing the currency of the name “Peter Beinart” in pseudo-liberal circles?
    .
    How exactly has Peter Beinart earned the vast credibility with which you have treated his work today, Michael Scherer?
    .
    Why do you trust Beinart so much?

  • 53_3

    Rusty,
    Has anyone pointed out that it is you who gives rednecks a bad name?
    .
    Think about it…

  • stuartzechman

    Rustyblog:
    .
    How does anyone in his right mind declare that neorationalist86 is not a conservative?
    .
    This person is one of the most dedicated conservatives I have read in this commentary.

  • 53_3

    Would it be too out of line to point out that maybe he wants to be associated with what he perceives to be the “right” side while maintaining deniability?
    .
    After all, on his freshly minted blog about Buchanan, by contrast, he comes out much more forcefully, injecting prominently his own rejection of Buchanan’s latest message.
    .
    You’re right. Why no MS opinion here?

  • megatronrises

    I don’t know exactly what your beef with Beinart is, SZ; I think he’s just calling them as he sees them in the article, and I find it to be pretty dead on.
    .
    I can’t remember the last time such a right wing Israeli government has been in power – and I mean right wing ideologically. And this I think is the main of the issue – in our country and theirs – is that ideology is taking over the discussion. I don’t prescribe to the radical centrism you often talk about (and I don’t know if you distinguish between this and pragmatic centrism – if so, I’d like to hear why if only because I’m somewhat new to the larger political debate and the labels it employs), but I can see where it might be an improvement over ideologues like those in Bibi’s government. There was always discussion of the “Palestinian problem” (that disturbingly echoed the discussion of the “Jewish problem” in 1930′s Germany) but never has there been so much tacit and explicit hostility towards a Palestinian population that seems to finally be getting it together (in the West Bank, that is).
    .
    Also, there are so few kibbutz-type communal camps anymore – most have disappeared in favor of Jewish camps that follow an American Jewish movement (Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc.) that to find someone with Israeli ideals and a liberal mindset is much rarer than it used to be. Even in Israel, I find the discussion to be very similar – the hawkish vs. the largely peace oriented youth. And this comes from friends and family who proudly served in the military. The question is not whether they’re willing to use force, the question has more or less become how do we determine when it’s necessary. You have the keep in mind that Israeli military campaigns have been far less effective than in the past – many in the youth are now disillusioned.
    .
    Though I agree Beinbart’s piece isn’t the best piece of hard reporting, I would venture out on a limb and say that it’s a great study of social trends among American & Israeli Jews and the ideological rifts that separate them – both on a geographical and generational level.
    .
    I’d love to hear what you think SZ, you are without a doubt one of the more prolific commentators here – despite the constant use of reporters’ full names.
    . :)

  • megatronrises

    I should also mention that I had not read Beinbart before today, so I’m not coming from any standpoint outside my initial impression of his writing.

  • 53_3

    SZ:
    .
    When you’re a rock, even a slug is fast…

  • 53_3

    Rusty:
    .
    Isn’t a “purity test” just a tweensy bet McCarthy-ish?

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    SZ~
    The problem arises from Rusty’s confusion of conservatism with Republicanism, of ideology with partisanship. You see, the GOP is the “conservative” party, and therefore, its policies and platforms are inherently consistent with conservative thought. It’s circular reasoning. Because I often clash with GOP policies, I suddenly morph into a liberal. Rusty has no sense of grey in his head, it’s all black and white. Democratic/liberal and Republican/conservative. Nuances are better left to the arts.

  • diecash1

    Well rustyblogwhore, allow me to assist you. You said this about the rule of law:

    Yes, in a perfect world where everyone is law-abiding, the “rule of law” does provide for some form of civility. However in the real world, full of terrorist and individuals who wish harm for the sake of some perverted ideology, then you may as well use a document like the constitution to wipe your arse.

    ..
    Comment 7.7 found here:
    http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/12/30/on-undiebomber/
    ..
    Seems like you trashed the constitution right there when you suggested wiping “your arse” with it. Classy as always you are.

  • newfreedomblog

    “Oh, Rusty, Rusty, Rusty. The “might be a redneck if…”

    .
    I guess my hope that you would choke on your arugula that I am sure you eat, while reading the redneck jokes I posted for you went totally over your head.
    .
    As you stated
    “Perhaps my perspective is skewed given that I’m stuck in Appalachia (insert Redneck) at the moment. I have yet to come across that enlightened segment of society in these parts.”

    .
    I understand in Obama’s world, and yours, finding an enlightened individual is difficult. Perhaps you should shop at the Winn Dixie instead of Whole Foods. Instead of Starbucks, you might want to walk into the local Sheetz’s to get your next cappachino. Perhaps you can forego Crackle Barrel for lunch and opt for Denny’s instead. You may run into that rare and uniquely “enlightened” redneck.
    .

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    First of all, sorry to get all haughty and elitist on you, but it’s “cappuccino.”
    ~
    As for “enlightened,” I was referring to being informed on Israel and the Middle East, not renaissance enlightenment. I would have presumed that was self-evident from the context of the discussion that was going on. I guess not. The Appalachians are not exactly all that keen on Middle-East politics, and they, like you, instinctively defend Israel because they see on the news that it’s an Americanesque society that shares our values, surrounded by heathen, Muslim terrorists out for blood. Simplistic. Vulgar. Dense. Unenlightened world view? Hmmm. In my experiences here, yes. And, I wouldn’t want to go to Winn Dixie or Whole Foods, Starbucks or Sheetz, Cracker Barrel or Denny’s. Those are some pretty sh*tty options.

  • rdw56

    The decline hardly matters. Israel depends on American support. It doesn’t matter what drives that support, if it’s American Jews or American Christians. In fact there is a huge advantage to have the far larger christian community support Israel.

    Isn’t all this rather predictable? After the debacle of Clintons Camp David talks it was inevitable Sharon wold lead the right to power and they would seek to defeat their enemies and defend the population. Since Americans jews are rigoriously left wing is was inevitable the collapse of the left wing would create a chasm between American and Israeli Jews. Yet support in American for Israel has never been stronger. Obama has been told in no uncertain terms he won’t be cutting aid to Israel, ever.

    The fact is the left in Israel has been decimated. They’ve moved decisively right. As long as they have the staunch support of the American center and right there is nothing the left can do about it.

  • rdw56

    “I think this is largely because of Bibi’s right wing, hawkish coalition. Had the numerous offers made to Arafat about 10 years ago been made today, I think they would be accepted in a heartbeat”

    Olmert made even more attractive offers and Abbas wouldn’t even respond. Are you so clueless you don’t know Fatah and Hamas are at war?

  • rdw56

    “Neoconservative ideology had it’s heyday early in Bush’s Administration, and faded rapidly as both the Lebanon and Gaza wars failed to achieve their objectives.”

    The kill ratio in Gaza was 150-1. Even Egypt has them under an embargo now while the West Bank is booming. Israel crushed, humiliated and marginalized Hamas. The next time they go to far the have the consider the probability after Israel gets done smacking them around Fatah will follow them into Gaza and finish the job. Liberals worldwide will cry a river about Israel but once Fatah enters Gaza the tears will dry up and you won’t say word one.

    Haven’t the neocons won everything? Obama hasn’t changed a single national security policy. rendition and warrantless wiretapping are the law of the land. Gitmo is not closing and KSM will not be visiting NYC or anywhere in the USA. Andrew Sullivan just reported Obama has a secret prison in Afghanistan and we’ve all been enjoying the new policy of using drone wolfpacks filling the skies of Pakistan raining fire on the people below. Imagine the liberal Obama coying the German uboat policy of WWII to set up drone wolfpacks to carry out his assassination policy. If I am not mistaken he’s given the order to take out a US citizen in Pakistan by drone. Obama is making Bush into a sissy.

  • rdw56

    “Also, most politicians today are craven when faced with a lobbying force like AIPAC. In general, I think modern lobbyists stifle democracy. I don’t know why they’re not outlawed and put down yet.”

    We have this thing called a constitution. It’s designed to prevent liberals from going fascist on us.

  • stuartzechman

    megatronrises:
    .
    Thanks for your response.
    .
    I don’t know exactly what your beef with Beinart is, SZ
    .
    O Where to start?
    .
    Here is Beinart in 2004 arguing that liberals skeptical of “Islamo-fascist” rhetoric and a Likudnik-style occupation response to US security issues should be purged from Serious debate ( link to A Fighting Faith
    An argument for a new liberalism. December 13, 2004
    )

    …Today, three years after September 11 brought the United States face-to-face with a new totalitarian threat, liberalism has still not “been fundamentally reshaped” by the experience.
    .
    …there is little liberal passion to win the struggle against Al Qaeda–even though totalitarian Islam has killed thousands of Americans and aims to kill millions; and even though, if it gained power, its efforts to force every aspect of life into conformity with a barbaric interpretation of Islam would reign terror upon women, religious minorities, and anyone in the Muslim world with a thirst for modernity or freedom.
    .
    When liberals talk about America‘s new era, the discussion is largely negative–against the Iraq war, against restrictions on civil liberties, against America’s worsening reputation in the world. In sharp contrast to the first years of the cold war, post-September 11 liberalism has produced leaders and institutions–most notably Michael Moore and MoveOn–that do not put the struggle against America’s new totalitarian foe at the center of their hopes for a better world. As a result, the Democratic Party boasts a fairly hawkish foreign policy establishment and a cadre of politicians and strategists eager to look tough. But, below this small elite sits a Wallacite grassroots that views America’s new struggle as a distraction, if not a mirage. Two elections, and two defeats, into the September 11 era, American liberalism still has not had its meeting at the Willard Hotel
    [a purge of leftists out of line with Beinart's vision]. And the hour is getting late.
    .
    For liberals to make such arguments effectively, they must first take back their movement from the softs.
    .
    Islamist totalitarianism–like Soviet totalitarianism before it–threatens the United States and the aspirations of millions across the world. And, as long as that threat remains, defeating it must be liberalism’s north star. Methods for defeating totalitarian Islam are a legitimate topic of internal liberal debate. But the centrality of the effort is not. The recognition that liberals face an external enemy more grave, and more illiberal, than George W. Bush should be the litmus test of a decent left.

    I could go on and on.
    .
    Beinart’s pseudo-liberalism is legendary at this point. He believes and articulates smears about liberals like me (and the rest of his party’s liberal base) that make the rightists’ “you hippies spit on the troops” epithets pale in comparison to his ideological antipathies.
    .
    Just think about this passage of his, for a moment:

    the Democratic Party boasts a fairly hawkish foreign policy establishment and a cadre of politicians and strategists eager to look tough. But, below this small elite sits a Wallacite grassroots that views America’s new struggle as a distraction, if not a mirage.

    If that isn’t an indictment of the illegitimate, non-representative Democratic establishment elite, I don’t know what is. Pete Beinart takes this state of affairs as an imperative to purge the Democratic party of the Democratic party’s entire base. He’s actually applauding the “eager to look tough” Democrats in Congress, and disparaging the majority of Democrats who would elect the man who said that the Iraq war had become “a dangerous distraction” to President.
    .
    this I think is the main of the issue – in our country and theirs – is that ideology is taking over the discussion.
    .
    The problem is that there just isn’t such a thing as a non-ideological debate over what should be done to help our country. The issue isn’t that ideology is taking over the discussion, it’s that the ideologies have vastly different takes on what the best course of action should be, and what the goals are. People who say that they aren’t ideological are refusing to admit that they largely agree with a set of ideological premises, one of which is that “the truth is somewhere in the middle”. Look, the Constitution of the United States is the supreme product of political ideology. To say that “ideology has taken over” is usually a euphemism for “the wrong ideology has taken over.” Do you really regret that that principles embodied and declared in the Constitution have largely “taken over” the running of United States of America? Of course you don’t.
    .
    Where radical adherence to ideology is problematic is in the ideologues’ tendency to ignore reality in favor of what their ideology says about what reality should be. Extreme adherence to principles isn’t bad, it’s when the principle of adhering to objectively verifiable truth is undermined by other principles that things become bad. The worst ideologues aren’t the most principled, the worst are the most political. The ideologues’ problem is similar to the Emperor’s New Clothes problem. That’s the real issue: subservience of the truth to politics in the zealous service of ideology.
    .
    if you distinguish between this [radical centrism] and pragmatic centrism
    .
    There are two kinds of pragmatism: one is the pragmatism of putting the doable before the probably not-doable, and the other is the compromise of principle in service of incremental steps toward ideological goals (as opposed to away from them).
    .
    With respect to the former, there is no awful systemic issue whatsoever with “pragmatic” conservatives or liberals or centrists of which I can think, unless it inevitably results in the latter even when compromise is unnecessary or counterproductive. As such, pragmatism has its own problems. The tendencies of “pragmatic centrists” to avoid speaking clearly about goals, and to reflexively accept incrementalist rhetoric are also problematic.
    .
    I can see where it might be an improvement over ideologues like those in Bibi’s government
    .
    Really? It’s not my government, so I don’t really know, but it strikes me as being terribly counter-productive to be incremental with respect to their problems –isn’t that sort of policy bound to eventually discredit them? Won’t the obvious failures of working within the status-quo create the inevitability of the Likudniks’ return to power?
    .
    never has there been so much tacit and explicit hostility towards a Palestinian population
    .
    Well, they’re realizing their demographic problems more and more, aren’t they? Isn’t this also inevitable?
    .
    The question is not whether they’re willing to use force, the question has more or less become how do we determine when it’s necessary. …it’s a great study of social trends among American & Israeli Jews and the ideological rifts that separate them
    .
    While I won’t cast myself as an expert on American Jewry, I think that the sort of analysis in which Beinart frequently engages –anecdotal, projecting, agenda-driven, data-less, reductive– contributes to our discourse becoming the slave of conventional narratives that “sound right” to us.
    .
    I’m not “ideological” enough of a leftist to forget that Beinart’s ultimate goal is the discredit of both left and right, so even when he’s castigating the establishment right, I’ll remember that he’ll use the same narrative-shaping techniques he did when he was positing that Michael Moore and MoveOn were more of a threat to the country’s security than George W Bush. With such little credibility at Beinart’s disposal, I’ll necessarily demand that he provide more than just his personal sense of things in support of his views of other people and national trends.
    .
    Otherwise, we’re just accepting our own version of “truthiness,” megatronrises.

  • megatronrises

    I’m not so clueless to know that Abbas has no control over his own people/territory, unlike Arafat. Admittedly, I should have qualified my statement. However, that still doesn’t warrant my being clueless as far as knowing that Fatah and Hamas are different… especially since the difference is irrelevant in the current conversation.

  • peteskitoo

    This is a great discussion, unfortunately the Zionist lens through which the writers describe the situation turn the everything on its head. When they describe the situation where “Zionist leadership whose naked hostility to Arabs and Palestinians scares even them, and a mass of secular American Jews who range from apathetic to appalled” the main point for liberal Zionists like Beinart is to support liberal Zionism as a way to save Israel, not to support Palestinian human rights because it is morally the right thing to do. I think this ethnic, tribal lens through which all Zionists seem to see the world is itself a dead end for a true grappling of the fact that Israel tramples on Palestinian human rights on a daily basis.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Indeed, sir. Well said.

  • rdw56

    you said the same offer made by Clinton would be accepted today. That’s silly. It can’t be accepted because there isn’t anyone to accept it. There can’t be a two state solution when there are 3 states. How can that fact be irrelevent to any conversation about the Middle East?

    You also overstate the importance of your support I think but that’s a different issue. to the extent you are a far left liberal as many american jews are this gap or rift is pre-ordained. It’s only important to the extent your support of Israel is more important than mine. I am a catholic (non-religious) conservative. I’d argue there isn’t a shred of difference between our relative value. To the extent an annual gallup poll of a few months ago showing support for Israel increasing from 57% to 61% and for Palestine dropping from 18% to 15% is acurate it’s saying you don’t matter.

  • megatronrises

    Thanks for the detailed response, SZ.
    .
    I agree with your argument regarding ideologies, the constitution being based on them, and varying degrees of pragmatism.
    .
    However, as much as I like the Colbert “truthiness” reference, I have to say that I’m just calling things as I see them – in articulating the divide between generations of American Jews regarding zionism and attitudes towards Israel, he’s putting to words something I’ve been observing all my life. I know that’s anecdotal/personal, but what has truthiness one day might become empirically true the next (scarily enough). Though his statements regarding liberals are really atrocious (I consider myself part of the liberal camp insofar as I can relate to any political philosophy) he may have gotten this one right.
    .
    But that’s just one man’s opinion. At any rate, I think I learned something today, so that’s a victory in my book.
    .
    Thanks again for the crash course!

  • newfreedomblog

    No problemo, Neo. We “dumb and ignorants from Appalachia call them drinks, cappa-CHInos”. But, I am glad you caught my spelling error. One would never want to go through life not knowing the correct spelling of words, especially when I know how it truly affects the spelling Nazis on TIME Swampland.
    .
    Elitists indeed.
    .
    So how’d you make out on that test I gave you? Still a “Conservative”?
    .
    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    . :D

  • stuartzechman

    Thanks so much for taking the time and effort to read through the whole thing, megatronrises.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    It actually made up a new classification just for me: Closet Liberal. Well, how about that? You’re good Rusty, very, very good. I tip my hat to you sir, I’ve been outed.
    ~
    And here I was thinking all this time that the widely recognized (but, you know only among us elitists) tenets of conservatism were just that: conservative. For f*ck’s sake, they’re actually liberal ideas! I feel I’ve lived a lie this whole time, you’ve called into question my entire existence. I feel so very lost…

  • apr2563

    Beinart is a faux liberal. He supported the Iraqi war and after about 5 years of destruction he thought maybe he was hasty. He criticizes what he defines as the “far” left to the joy of the traditional media. He is one of their go to “liberals”.
    .
    I hope that the current generation is as open minded as is predicted. Some in my generation fought hard for civil rights and the war on poverty, the next against military war. The movements were not backed by the mainstream of Americans. We now have the resurgence of the silent majority Nixon and Agnew praised. They were actually the majority and their xenophobia, homophobia, lack of compassion, and intolerance still exists. I know those teabaggers. Most of them are my generation.
    .
    My wish is that the generational transformation is real and active. I hope they will also have a media that tells the truth, avoids false equivalencies, and strong leaders that live up to their ideals.

  • stuartzechman

    You know, I thought we liberals were the ones with these problems, what with that toad Beinart fantasizing about “liberal Zionism” (whatever that is) and claiming the mantle of liberalism for politicians (and strategists!) to the right of John Kerry. I thought you had successfully avoided the various stupidities exemplified by “progressive” vs “liberal.”
    .
    Now I see that you guys are just as confused as we are.
    .
    Don’t you guys have a working definition of “conservative”?
    .
    I can’t believe that I’m even asking this…

  • apr2563

    Stuart: Thank you for documenting and articulating Beinart’s craven ideology. I was too lazy to look up documentation on my previous post. When he is used on cable shows as a “liberal” advocate, I switch channels. I already know what he is going to say.
    .
    NewRusty: Reverend Hagee is looking for some church members to pray for the survival of Israel. End Times are a comin’.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    SZ~
    ~
    We’re are fractured, very fractured. But, rest assured, we have well-entrenched tenets defining each of these fractures. The three major columns of conservatism are social, fiscal, and foreign policy, all of which should, in theory, ascribe to a fourth column pertaining to the role of government. The major fracture, thus, is that each group declares itself conservative without clarifying which column. There’s a lot of overlap, sure, but also a lot of single-columned conservatives. This is where disputes arise. Then, within columns, there are disputes between the ideological conservatives and the partisan conservatives, i.e. those like Rusty who irrationally assume the GOP pursues conservative goals without deviation. That’s probably the largest problem we have right there. The true conservatives (paleoconservatives), for example, versus party loyalists like the neoconservatives. It is a bit confusing, I know. But all us real conservatives understand the basic philosophy and try to apply it to reality. Whereas, the rabble-rousing populists, i.e. refugees, who’ve amassed themselves under the banner of the GOP, and the hard-core establishment neoconservatives, are working doubly hard to redefine “conservative” under their own depthless agendas, respectively, reflexive opposition to the left and reflexive defense of the party.

  • apr2563

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/17/noam-chomsky-denied-entry_0_n_578285.html
    Chomsky denied entry into Israel. Was to talk at Israeli university. Would that happen to Beinart? Who is the real liberal.

  • rdw56

    George Galloway and Code Pink were also evicted from Egypt a few months back and will not be allowed to return. They are not allowing whacky left wingers near Gaza. Egypt and Israel mean business on this embargo. The obvious reason is to punish Hamas for taking orders from Iran so they are making sure the Palestinians on the West Bank under Fatah are freer and grow far more prosperous.

  • megatronrises

    I don’t think my support is any better than anyone else’s support. I’m a liberal minded secularist as far as I can tell. The only difference I can see is that I’m more likely to give money to Israel in the future and have a financial stake in the Israel bonds that help fund the country.
    .
    And it’s a good point that there’s no one to accept that offer today. But I’m confident it would be accepted were there someone to accept it. I disagree with you on this – I think the Ehud Barak plan was far better than the Olmert plan. It offered 73% of the West Bank, 91%+ in 10-25 years. Israel would withdraw from 63 settlements. The Olmert plan is close, but still doesn’t quite make it.

  • newfreedomblog

    “I feel I’ve lived a lie this whole time, you’ve called into question my entire existence. I feel so very lost…”

    .
    Oh never fear, I am sure that the likes of stuart”smalley”zechman will as other commenters have said “take you to their re-education camps” to expel the rest of your “conservative” demons. You do not have many for the progressive exorcist to rid you of I am sure anyways.
    .
    I predict you shall fit in nicely to Obama’s new world order. Of course you may become a little confused as the new meme for people like stuart is to now adamantly claim they are supporters of the 2nd Amendment rights, that as long as you do not pray in a government building your 1st amendment rights are preserved, and of course while they continue to build bigger and larger Federal Governments, they will at least keep some semblence of a State Government around just to keep the other rights intact, although completely neutered and powerless.
    .
    So far as foreign policy is concerned, you have already committed to backing Hamas and their ideals of Islamic Terrorism, so you can’t shift any further on that issue to the left. Did you take notice to how Holder found it almost impossible to even say the words Islamic Terrorist the other day when he was questioned on Capitol Hill? He really struggled greatly.

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