How the Arizona Immigration Law May Look in Practice

As debate over SB1070 continues to rage, The Arizona Republic convenes a panel of experts to parse its practical applications. It should come as no surprise that when and how the controversial new law should be enforced remains open to interpretation. The five-person panel included two Arizona legislators: a Republican who sponsored the House version of the bill, and a Democratic state rep who opposed the measure. Predictably, the Republican disputes suggestions that the measure facilitates racial profiling, while the Democrat notes the law’s lack of hard guidelines, which opponents say leaves it susceptible to abuse. The other panelists’ answers aren’t much more illuminating; there is little agreement on basic questions, like how the context of an encounter — e.g., the neighborhood, time of day or a suspect’s appearance — should inform the officer’s decision, or what recourse someone has after they’re stopped. (The law prohibits law enforcement from considering race “except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution.”) By underscoring these uncertainties, the piece gives heft to the argument that the law’s ambiguity could create a host of problems–both for Arizonans who might be unfairly ensnared and the cops charged with carrying out the law. An excerpt:

Scenario: At 9 on a weekday evening, a police officer comes across three men ages 18 or 19 playing basketball in a south Phoenix neighborhood park. The neighborhood has a large illegal-immigrant population. All three appear to be Latino. There have been no recent crimes or complaints that might be connected to these three men. The men are wearing torn T-shirts, shorts and basketball shoes. They have no identification with them.

Question: Can the officer approach the men and ask them their legal status?

John Kavanagh: No. Nor could the officer approach them for any other law-enforcement reason, assuming the park is still open to the public. They are doing nothing that is illegal or even suspicious.

To be contacted, they would have to be observed committing an unlawful act (other than being in the U.S. illegally). Even then, additional facts that create a “reasonable suspicion” they are here illegally would have to be present before the officer could question them about their immigration status.

Andy Silverman: A police officer can talk to anyone he or she wants to and ask them anything. The issue is whether the person is free to go. If the person is not accused or suspected of a crime, they should be free to go and thus not answer the question. If the police officer has a legitimate criminal reason to detain the person, then of course they are not free to go.

A person doesn’t need to answer any question by a police officer whether detained or not except maybe their name – that is, people have a right not to incriminate themselves or answer questions from a law-enforcement officer.

Kyrsten Sinema: The new law does not prohibit the officer from questioning the men about their status. Reasonable suspicion depends on the totality of circumstances and can include a person’s conduct or appearance, characteristics of the area and time of day.

The new law does not give guidelines that define what police can use in deciding who to question about immigration status.

Mark Spencer: No. There is no suspicious conduct and the law presumes everyone is in the country legally.

The officer could question the men if there was suspicious or criminal conduct (i.e. calls complaining about fighting, urinating in public, odor of marijuana, etc.) along with reasonable suspicion to being in the country illegally. Even with suspicious or criminal conduct, the person contacted is presumed to be a citizen.

While there’s no consensus over the law’s practical applications, what is abundantly clear is that it will force Arizona cops to make murky judgments. Law enforcement officials are deeply divided over the law, as TIME’s Nathan Thornburgh reported a few weeks back.

Related Topics: Democratic Party, Immigration, Republican Party, Uncategorized
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  • groenhagen2

    “While there’s no consensus over the law’s practical applications, what is abundantly clear is that it will force Arizona cops to make murky judgments.”

    What’s so murky about it? About 70 people were arrested for illegal cockfighting over the weekend. Twenty or so were illegal immigrants. They were arrested for one thing and were shown to be here illegally after being asked for their documentation. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

  • nflfoghorn

    Can’t wait for this so-called legislation to get thrown out in court…albeit not the Supreme one.

  • ricardo4max

    Works quite well, as I see it!
    Time to enact similar legislation that applies to anti-American Marxists and liberals! If they don’t believe in the Constitution or our form of govt and capitalism, then export them to a socialist country that they will love!

  • nflfoghorn

    While you’re at it, see if you can pull over someone for smoking marijuana and throw ‘em in jail for trafficking. I’m sure you’ll make a significant dent in the heinous illegal drug trade.

  • hippooath

    “Time to enact similar legislation that applies to anti-American Marxists and liberals! If they don’t believe in the Constitution or our form of govt and capitalism”
    .
    I should be fine tho since I’m pro on all of those counts.
    .
    Can you explain to me how your comment have any kind of support in our constitution?
    .

  • square1

    Nothing prevented the police from turning over those detained on criminal charges to federal officials.
    .
    A quick check of Sheriff Joe Arpaio’s website finds them boasting that “Sheriff’s detention officers have turned over 34,150 illegal immigrants to Immigration authorities for deportation.” Obviously that didn’t happen since the law was passed.
    .
    Really the new law is about forcing police to attempt to identify illegal aliens who haven’t committed any criminal act.

  • kevin

    Time to enact similar legislation that applies to anti-American Marxists and liberals! If they don’t believe in the Constitution or our form of govt and capitalism, then export them to a socialist country that they will love!
    .
    That’s an interesting comment from someone who’s apparently not an American and comes from a comparatively socialist country like England.

  • deconstructiva

    re: life imitating art, I wonder if Cheech Marin’s “Born in East LA” will be prophetic in Arizona. No joke: if some look “illegal” how many will be rounded up? (Cheech’s movie is a good one.)

  • http://forgottenlord.livejournal.com forgottenlord

    So really, this law will either…
    1) Make it standard procedure to check their citizenship status for individuals stopped for unrelated issues (I would rate that as not a concerning law but also probably a waste of the paper it was written on because I doubt it’ll have a notable impact on illegal immigrants netted)
    2) Make it standard procedure for police to approach random people and ask for proof of citizenship.
    .
    I’m only ok with #2 if it is truly random and not done to random Latinos – which I know will tend to happen.

  • diecash1

    Time to enact similar legislation that applies to anti-American Marxists and liberals! If they don’t believe in the Constitution or our form of govt and capitalism, then export them to a socialist country that they will love!

    More idiocy from yet another fascist wannabe. Way to support the constitution by subverting it.

  • formerlyjames

    I’m not opposed to racial profiling. It’s just that profiling poor down and out Mexican immigrants, legal or otherwise, doesn’t contribute to my idea of the benefit of it. That Arizona program is pure unadulterated destructive racism. Profiling is OK by me. Racism is not. There’s a distinction here that escapes the nazis in Arizona.

  • 53_3

    “If they don’t believe in the Constitution or our form of govt and capitalism, then export them to a socialist country that they will love!”
    .
    Wow. How in the hell did Capitalism get in here.
    .
    I guess it really doesn’t matter since ricardo4max just advocating not just one, but several of the many Amendments of the Constitution of the United States.
    .
    All while attempting to show support for it.
    .
    I would have thought that the word “pretzelization” would be something that would only apply to contortionists, but, hells bells, I guess that’s not the only kind of contortionist there is these days…

  • 53_3

    It seems that the deeply red states are out to make a run at revising history, too.
    .
    http://theweek.com/article/index/200773/Texas_Teaching_conservative_history
    .
    As if Arizona’s law on teaching ethnic history wasn’t enough.

  • 53_3

    Trouble is, we are already seeing a “slippery slope” rash of activism (see below post at 6) aimed at all things ethnic.
    .
    I think that a much better way, with much better results, and less chance of messing with Constitutional issues, would be to go after the businesses that hire them.
    .
    Then again, maybe the silver lining in all this is the 3 to 4 million votes they stand to lose by alienating the Latino community…

  • formerlyjames

    53, it would be the height of hypocrisy for me to agree to “go after” the businesses that employ Mexican workers. I unashamedly employ them. If there were a comparable alternative to their excellent service and good value, I would certainly consider it.
    .
    That’s capitalism for you. I support it, yet seem to be on the outs for it. I just don’t get it.

  • 53_3

    I guess also I think serially. I have to spit them out when I get to ‘em.
    .
    On racial profiling, we have a problem in that is never really isn’t productive, as the ethnic group being profiled (when used in law enforcement) never is composed mostly of individuals willing to break a particular law.
    .
    And, in respect to that portion of the Latino community that are US citizens, this would then come under the Fourth Amendment.

  • 53_3

    I see that point, james.
    .
    These days, it will make or break a company when you have to compete with others that were to do the same thing.
    .
    However, where I live, I’m looking right now outside at American kids, not having work. They are idle. This, while I look across the parking lot at the McDonalds and Taco Time who have illegal immigrants working.
    .
    There is a flip side to having the 12 or so million who are in this country, and that is, someone can’t get, or has to lose, their job. The price is not zero. Is the middle of a recession a good time to charge that price?
    .
    The traditional first jobs that enrich our youth are just not easily available. There are some companies that hire only Americans, but others who don’t, and won’t, but as they lose to competitors that do, the jobs they have become scarcer.
    .
    In addition, my best friends’ uncle (whom I know well), who built a built a custodial company has decided to retire because he cannot get contracts any more. American owned companies who employ them undercut him continually.
    .
    I live in a middle income neighborhood, too. It’s a pretty stark change that I’ve seen in the past ten years. I think what is best to keep in mind is that these kids aren’t lazy, but it is almost impossible to compete with people who are relatively far more hungry for a job than they are.
    .
    The solution, I don’t think, is to assume that it is anything other than the product of our respective origins colliding:
    .
    They in countries where standards of living are far lower, and hence, require a much greater “hunger” to battle for economic position.
    .
    I would think that being American citizens, our children should be able to benefits of the fruits of our work. After all, what I’m seeing here is a lot of recidivism and disregard for authority, law, and the pervasiveness of the “thug” mentality because of the enforced idleness related to the difficulty of finding a job.
    .
    I can’t say what the best solution is, but I wanted to point out that the lowest sectors of the economic ladder do pay a price, and have been paying it for a while.

  • apr2563

    ricardo: What part of the Constitution do you believe in? By your statement, it appears you are totally against American values and laws. Pity.

  • formerlyjames

    53, I share your bleak perspective. However, I would point out that those Mexicans laboring everyday beyond what any American would, regardless of race, are worthy of more respect than they are accorded by such cheap racist actions as the Arizona statutes, including the one about not allowing cultural studies in schools. That law is incredibly racist and the good citizens of Arizona sit idly by. My dumb mind is still trying to figure it out.
    .
    I don’t know what the answer is, but I know what it is not.

  • boomersong

    So many states are joining with Arizona. It’s heart warming! Saturday, May 29th, http://www.standwitharizona.org will hold a Buycott rally at Tempe Diablo Stadium beginning at 6 p.m. Hotel rooms are just $69 per night. 1000 people from Texas alone are expected. Keynote speaker Sheriff Joe Arpaio. It’s an event! Thank you, American Patriots, for standing with Arizona. As to the Administration, shame on Eric Holder for criticizing a sovereign state when he does not even bother to read SB1070! What kind of an Attorney General are you, Mr. Holder? Oh, I know, the kind that does not pay his taxes but is paid on the public teat. Hmmm…God bless America!

  • http://lookinfromoutside.wordpress.com lookinfromoutside

    I’ve been lurking aroud the Swamp for a while now, but this topic really got me to comment.

    This law purportedly created to “catch illegal immigrants” may or may not work – and a lot of commenters much wiser than I have pointed that out – but this scenario keeps popping up into my mind:

    Imagine a fourth-generation American Citizen of Mexican descent, clearly Latino-looking (remember all those people who suddenly found themselves in the US after the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo redrew the US-Mexico border northward), walking his dog in a Latino neighborhood, no ID on him, and he is stopped by the police and asked for “proof-of-residence”; then he says “I’m an American Citizen”… then what?

    Picture the same scenario, except the gentleman in question is now blond-haired, blue-eyed. What are the odds of him being stopped? And what if he does not have an ID on him? Will he be asked whether he is an illegal immigrant from Canada (or Sweden, or Germany, etc.)?

    To avoid racial profiling, the police should actually choose completely random, which means either one of my hypotetical guys…

    What will happen when the person stopped IS in fact a US citizen and does not have the ID on him to prove it?

    It just takes one error in judgement on either side, the police or the citizen, and a major lawsuit could be the smallest of all problems…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “. Liberals on a curriculum review panel triggered this battle by recommending the textbooks omit all mention of Christmas and overplay the role of relatively peripheral minorities…”
    .
    What part of American history or even World History does Christmas come into it?
    .
    Every Jew, Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu who has spent more than ten months in the United States or any even nominally Christian country knows what Christmas is.
    .
    If Texas preachers can’t explain Christmas to Christians, then it is, obviously, the preachers and ministers who need to get fired.
    .
    I spoke with somebody who, as a part of their lecture was sure that Thomas Jefferson, not prehistorical people, invented the handshake. I forget where she was from, but, that is a nationalist revisionist history just to pretend that the US is even more dominant than we really are. If Luxembourg or Estonia has nationalism in their history to make themselves sound more significant, I can understand easily. But, I think we are more than dominant enough on the world stage.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    The way I see it, I have, absolutely no problem if the immigration status of people convicted of misdemeanors or felonies is checked for immigration status. It is not immigrants we do not want. It is criminals we do not want.
    .
    Regarding profiling, look for the employer.
    .
    Randomly check employment records. If the job description involves working your butt off, it pays minimum wage and the workers have some unknown fear of union organizers then it must be illegal immigrants. Anybody with confidence would ask for fair wages for hard work.
    .
    Then, if employers who typically hire illegals fear hiring illegals, we have the problem solved.
    .
    Going after the employers would get in the way of the conservative agenda of the race to the bottom to see who can get the closest to free labor without actually being slave owners.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “It just takes one error in judgement on either side, the police or the citizen, and a major lawsuit could be the smallest of all problems…”
    .
    As long as the police are “acting in good faith” they are immune from lawsuit under this law.
    .
    This law is like a Latino version of Jim Crow but, this time Republicans do not have Lincoln, they have John McCain.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Greonhagen,
    .
    You’ve read my warnings now, to prevent legal action, keep out of Swampland.
    .
    (If anybody wants to know, you can read the next post and I explain everything about Kevin Greonhagen.)

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    What I find amazing is that conservatives have this concept of law enforcement to be totally infallible but find regulators of businesses unimaginably inept and evil.
    .
    A huge majority of the time I believe that police are doing their jobs honestly, but, I, also, feel that way about regulators such as the SEC and even the IRS.
    .
    The difference is, you are not going to loose your freedom to a life in jail or loose your ability to get hired for many jobs due to a criminal record when dealing with the SEC, the MMS, FCC… but you will if the police make a mistake or you want to plea your way out of a bad situation. With regulatory agencies, if they get overzealous, you pay a fine and go on with your business.
    .
    In high school a friend’s father had been audited. This man owned a business and, when the IRS couldn’t find any real problem, they found out that he bought his office furniture over the state line and, in theory, the state one uses things in are subject to a sales tax. It was ridiculous of course, but, a couple of hundred dollars later and it was cleared up.
    .
    If you have a run in with the police, it’s not so easy.

  • 53_3

    James:
    .
    I agree about the Arizona law because of the Fourth Amendment issues and the new, and obviously racist, attempts by Arizona and Texas to legislate US and ethnic history.
    .
    I understand how you reel, as I’m tiptoeing along the same knife edge, with fascism and racism on one side, and inhumanity on the other.
    .
    The illegals are going to suffer greatly. The GOP actively encouraged them to come here for the purpose (at the time) of votes and as a way, on a national level, as “strike busters” to force wages down. They have been taken advantage of, and now, in a recession, if they hadn’t been through enough, their impact on lower income wage earners has become very negative – and hopefully, the pushback will be moderated to keep things in perspective.
    .
    How do we teach our kids the value of a job when they can’t get one?

  • 53_3

    “Regarding profiling, look for the employer.”
    .
    You don’t actually have a Fourth Amendment problem with employers. You have databases. They don’t include race (and it is against the law to include race) in an employer database.
    .
    Check all SSNs and verify citizenship of all who checked yes for the “Are you a citizen of the United States?” question.
    .
    For those who checked no, verify green card status.
    .
    No Fourth Amendment problems, 100% results…

  • 3xfire3

    70% of the citizens of AZ support the new immigration law.
    .
    60% of American citizens support the AZ law.
    .
    0% of the Liberals on swampland support the new AZ law
    .
    Talk about being out of touch with the rest of the country. And liberals wonder why so few Americans support their political views.
    .
    A large majority of American citizens trust police officers will follow the law and not abuse it.
    .
    Liberals don’t trust the police officers to follow the law.
    .
    President Obama doesn’t trust police officers to follow the law. [maybe he’ll need more beer summits].
    .
    Eric Holder doesn’t trust police officers to follow the law.
    .
    The above data illustrates why democrats will lose big in November. They are totally out of touch with a majority of Americans.

  • 3xfire3

    53,
    .
    I share your concerns. I am not anti Hispanic. I have 2 Hispanic grandchildren that I love very much and I would give my life for them if it were necessary. I live in a town of 17,000 were approx 15% of the population is Hispanic. Almost all are second and third generation in the USA and are American citizens. These are some of the finest people you could ever meet. They think of themselves as Americans first and of Mexico as their accessorial home much like mine is Switzerland. Many are close friend of my wife and I and best friend of our children and grandchildren.
    .
    When I hear people saying that the illegals are doing jobs that Americans aren’t willing to do, I know it is an excuse and a lie.
    .
    They take the jobs from people in the inner cities. They work construction which are very good jobs. They take the entry level jobs that should be going to our young people.
    .
    My wife’s sister lives in Dalton Georgia. The people there are mostly poor and used to work in the carpet mills. The locals have lost their jobs to illegals who work for less money. I see this first hand through my nephews and nieces who live there.
    .
    On one of my visits to Dalton on a Sunday I went to the local Wal-Mart store. I felt like I was in a foreign country. Of the hundreds of people in the store, I was one of only a couple that was not Hispanic. This was in Georgia not Texas.
    .
    I do not blame the poor Mexicans that come hear to try and provide a better life for their families. In their situation I would probably do the same. I do blame our politicians of both parties for allowing this situation to happen and for not having the courage to make the changes necessary to solve the problem.
    .
    Democrat and Republican politicians need to take their heads out of the sand and admit it will take both a secure boarder and fines against businesses that hire illegals and probably a guest workers program. There will also have to be some form of a national ID and a means of enforcing our laws.
    .
    Both Republicans and Democrats need to stop trying to gain a political advantage and work together to really solve this problem.

  • 53_3

    3xfire3:
    .
    Let me put it this way, considering your relentless denseness in all things minority:
    .
    I would rather be kissed by a hagfish…

  • 53_3

    Is this another hypothetical poll 3xfire3?
    .
    Links?
    .
    I provide them always when presenting polls.
    .
    These are the very reasons why I equate “supporting” commentary from you akin to the kiss of a hagfish.
    .
    See comment 5.10, and yes, consider it a slapdown.

  • 3xfire3

    53,
    .
    In what part of 5.9 do you consider anti minority?
    .
    In that I have 4 different monority groups as part of my imidiate family, I believe I am in no way anti monority.
    .
    Reread 5.9. I have a difficult time understanding how you could disagree with my comments.

  • 53_3

    3xfire3:
    .
    I did not comment on your comments, my comment was about you.
    .
    Also, look up hagfish (family Myxinidae).
    .
    Reread it and read 9.1.

  • Art Pepper

    Yes, the police will never be able to concoct “reasonable suspicion” of criminal activity. (The officer smelled marijuana … the suspect was seen littering … the suspect jaywalked…)

    If I remember, Giuliani opposed this kind of law because it disincentivizes illegals from calling 911 if they witness a crime or emergency.

  • 3xfire3

    53,
    .
    In all honesty, I really would like to hear your comments about my post 5.9. I’m trying hard to understand a liberal’s point of view.
    .
    I know we passionately disagree on what policies are in the best interest of our country and its citizens. We are both right from our own particular perceptions. We have had different life experiences which have created these different perceptions. Perceptions are not necessarily reality but are our honest views of what we each believe to be reality.
    .
    So please give me your views on post 5.9

  • omorka

    McLeroy has been doing this for a while now. Thank the gods he lost his primary – he’s now trying to do as much damage as possible before he leaves. I can’t imagine the sorts of ‘reforms’ he’d propose for my subject, although I suspect “pi = 3″ would be one of the first.
    .
    It would be nice if the SBOE were made up of, you know, people with some expertise in either the various subject areas or general pedagogy, instead of dentists, lawyers, and real estate agents.

  • 3xfire3

    53,
    .
    Here is the link you asked for. It is the current Pew Survey.
    .
    http://people-press.org/report/613/arizona-immigration-law
    .
    It is also intersesting that Pew’s current survey on President Obama’s Approval rating shows a continued decline.
    .
    47%…Approve of job performance
    .
    46%…Disapprove of job performance
    .
    7%…No Opinion
    .
    This compares to when President Obama took office in January of 2009.
    .
    69%…Approval rating
    .
    12%…Disapproval rating
    .
    19%…No Opinion

  • 3xfire3

    The following is National data from new surveys by Pew and McClatchy-Ipsos. May 6-9, 2010
    .
    * 73%…. Approve of “requiring people to produce documents verifying legal status.”
    .
    • 67%…. Approve of “allowing police to detain anyone unable to verify legal status.”
    .
    • 62%….Approve of “allowing police to question anyone they think may be in the country illegally.”
    .
    • 59%….Approve of the new Arizona law.
    .
    Control U.S. boarder to halt the flow of illegal immigrants into the U.S.
    .
    89%…In Support of Controlling U.S. boarder to halt the flow of illegal immigrants into the U.S.
    .
    10%…Do not Support of Controlling U.S. boarder to halt the flow of illegal immigrants into the U.S.
    .
    National Support of Arizona Law
    .
    64% …Of registered voter nationally support the Arizona Law.
    .
    It certainly appears that a large majority of American citizens support the new AZ Law.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    3X,
    .
    You, basically, agreed with what I had to say.
    .
    One tiny difference is that I mentioned that it was doing harm to organized labor and that is not your issue.
    .
    A national ID card, however, does not seem reasonable since when undocumented workers fill out their I-9 form, they already have a fake social security card and a fake driver’s license in that stolen name. (And contribute to the social security benefits of that person who’s identity was stolen).
    .
    So, they will just make or buy counterfeits of another form of ID on top of it.
    .
    It would, by itself, do nothing at all.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Good point!

  • 3xfire3

    A Challenge To All Swampland Liberals
    .
    I am truly trying to understand the Liberal point of view.
    .
    I have found in life when people have a better understanding of the views of others, that knowledge allows more civil discussions of the issues.
    .
    My challenge to you is to read my post 5.9 and tell me from a Liberal point of view, which specific comments you disagree with and why.
    .
    If Stewart is viewing this post, I would very much like to hear your comments.
    .
    I would appreciate comments from anyone on Swampland.
    .
    Thanks for your help.
    .

  • 53_3
  • 3xfire3

    Your many posts show how totally irrational you are.
    .
    As a heartless conservative that you think I am, I have done more to help people in need in the USA and around the world than you and the rest of the Liberals on Swampland combined.
    .
    You see. Conservatives do more then talk. We actually help those people in need.

  • masterc4u

    I am glad to know that U.S. District Judge Susan Bolton, a Clinton appointee was NOT influenced by that fact.

    I know a JUDGE would never use their power to help out a POLITICAL Party that had given them their position.

    I know that this “JUDGE” will not be moved into a higher position of authority by a POLITICAL Party in the future for having betrayed the USA and her citizens today.

    We would all be shocked to see something like that happen.

    Since this decision came from U.S. District Judge Susan Bolton, a Clinton appointee,

    I cannot see that POLITICS nor the DEMOCRATIC party would have influenced her decision.

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