In the Arena

…Or Maybe It’s Just to Save Lives

The folks over at Commentary have become so twisted in their hatred for the Obama Administration–and in their perverse sense of what helps or hurts Israel–that their only possible reaction to the Administration’s announcement that it would help fund an anti-missile system to protect Israeli towns from attacks by Hamas and Hezbollah is to argue that it is a sneaky attempt to hurt Israel:

The timing of the decision may have been dictated by the administration’s desire to walk back from the hostility its stands on Jerusalem and insults to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu provoked from friends of Israel. The charm offensive belies the left’s claims that most American Jews back Obama’s Israel-bashing. The White House’s clear desire to undo the impression it had previously sought to foster of America distancing itself from the Jewish state is an indication that it doesn’t believe most American Jews support a policy of further pressure on Israel.

However, backing for the Iron Dome project may have another context. Even if the system isn’t foolproof, should a new terrorist offensive against Israel be launched either in the south by Hamas or, as widely anticipated, in the north by an even more heavily armed Hezbollah, a defensive shield against rocket attacks could give the administration the leverage it needs to prevent substantial Israeli counterattacks against either threat.

First of all, there’s the loathsome assumption that those who oppose more Israeli settlement-building, especially in Jerusalem, are anti-Israel. Actually, no: there are those of us–strongly pro-Israel–who believe that these illegal housing blocks are an incitement that makes a peace settlement less likely…and that the absence of a peace settlement means long-term disaster for Israel. I’ve rehearsed that argument more than once in this space, but it’s still nauseating in the extreme to be casually accused of being anti-Israel (or anti-semitic, or self-hating) by extremists whose views, and tendency to place more faith in the right-wing Likud coalition than in the United States government, are at a variance with those of the majority of American Jews.

And then, there’s the toxic silliness of arguing that the missile defense system is actually a ploy to prevent Israel from taking action against Arab groups like Hezbollah and Hamas. No, the Occam’s Razor answer is: it’s an effort to protect civilians from terrorist attacks. But if it has the additional effect of moderating Israel’s justifiable retaliation against these jihadi groups, what’s wrong with that?

I favored the two most recent Israeli retaliations–in Gaza and Lebanon–in principle and in moderation. But both reactions were disproportionate (especially the Israeli aerial attacks on Beirut in August, 2006…and the extended Gaza campaign, which achieved most of its purpose after the first few days). I favor anything that makes violence against civilians less likely on both sides; the anti-missile system will do that. I’m glad the Administration is funding it.

Related Topics: Iron Dome, Likud party, Obama Administration, Uncategorized
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  • michaelfury

    About that “extended Gaza campaign”: It takes time to use up that kind of inventory, Mr. Klein.

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/investor-relations/

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Of course if the anti-missle system also happened to be able to pinpoint the point of launch……..

  • square1

    Here’s what I believe: We should judge the respective actors in the ME no more nor less harshly than we judge ourselves.
    .
    For the most part, when Americans recoiled at Israel’s horrendously disproportionate, immoral, and illegal campaign in Gaza it was because…that is how Americans would react if America engaged in similar behavior. Those who take offense at condemnation of Likudnik militarism simply want to be held to a lower standard.
    .
    Just prior to the commencement of the Gaza campaign, the rocket attacks had dwindled to virtually nothing and barely represented an actual threat against the Israel population. I would submit that the violence of Mexican drug cartels that has crossed over the border into the U.S. poses a greater threat to U.S. citizens than Palestinian rockets pose to Israelis. And yet, can anyone imagine the U.S. responding by launching a major military incursion into Mexico, firing missiles from F-16s into densely populated towns and cities? Bulldozing people’s houses? Dropping white phosphorus over urban area?
    .
    No, people accused Israel of war crimes because it engaged in f-ing barbaric behavior that should not be tolerated by civilized people. And I would say the same if any other nation engaged in similar behavior.

  • http://forgottenlord.livejournal.com forgottenlord

    There is a slight problem with your analogy. The Drug Cartels are targeting the populace as individual entities (or not targeting as the case may be). Hezbollah and Hamas were targeting the nation as a single entity.
    .
    Considering that, the more apt comparison, IMO, would be Afghanistan – which we did bomb because of our fear that they would strike again.

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    @forgottenlord:
    .
    Ah, but technically, Afghanistan never attacked us. Isn’t it nice of the US to totally lay waste two countries because of group of militants hiding out in country no. 1 happened to attack us in a most immoral and dispicable way?
    .
    IMHO, the US, not even those of us who have been vebally against the wars, have any room to criticize the faults of any other country. A preemptive war against a country that was of no threat to us, untold numbers of civilian causualities in three countires (including Pakistan) the emotional, psychological and physical torture of other human being has ended this country’s standing as the moral leader of the world.

  • square1

    I am not going to defend or attack our military tactics in Afghanistan, which have caused significant civilian deaths. Having said that, there is no comparison between our response to 9/11 and the Gaza incursion
    .
    Just prior to Israel’s attack on Gaza, rocket attacks were at a relatively low point. It would not be an exaggeration to say that a New Yorker probably had a greater chance of being hit and killed by a falling crane than an Israeli had of being killed by a rocket. Certainly Israel was not responding to the equivalent of 9/11.
    .
    Whether justified or not, civilian deaths in Afghanistan have been unintentional. Israel deliberately targeted civilians. Collective punishment of a population — illegal under international law under any circumstance — was particularly unjustified when the residual rocket attacks that did occur did not appear to be ordered by Palestinian leaders, who by all accounts were making every intention to honor the cease fire.

  • rdw56

    Ameicans did not recoil at Israel’s attacks on Gaza. They were overwhelmingly supported by Americans and still are. Moreover the MSM lost even more ground when they tried to attack Israel on the proportionality issue. Most airhead libs took proportionality to mean there was some acceptable ratio of reprisal. As in if they kill one jew the jews can kill one arab. Except that’s not it as all and the concept of proportionality goes back 100 years. Once Amercans learned the truth of the concept, and they did not learn it from Time, that it meant Israel could do whatever actions it took to stop the rocket attacks, support for Israel was near unaminous.

    sq1 – it’s nice that rocket attacks were at a relative low point. It’s also absurd. One attack, no matter how inept, is an act of war justifying a quick and decisive response. People like you merely add to the Arabs humiliation. You essentially excuse the arabs for thier attacks because they are so pathetic. You then blame the Jews for responding becuase they are so effective. You humiliate the arabs and you mock yourself. American support for Israel is deep and broad because of these bonehead arguments.

  • rdw56

    “has ended this country’s standing as the moral leader of the world”

    This is one of the more comically silly notions on the left. Exactly when, where and how was the USA ordained as the moral leader of the world? I missed that. Is this something they do at Davos? The UN? We are the leader of the world because we are the strongest military and economic power. That is the only reason.

    If you want to really drive yourselves crazy google a column by Thomas L Freidman from a month or two back on the disinterest of Israeli citizens vis-a-vis the pressure Obama is putting on Netanyahu. The average jew is unimpressed and uninterested Obama is upset with BiBi. They are safe behind their fence and quite prosperous. Israel in fact might hit a record 8% GDP growth in late 2010 and into 2011. If they haven’t passed France and Germany in per capita income they will be 2011 and while those to struggle to grow 1% Israel will be growing over 6%. It’s very possible by 2020 Israeli per capita incomes will be double the European average. Thomas L was rather astonished the Jews don’t see themselves as wards of the USA dependent on our mercies.

    It’s about the money. It’s always about the money. While liberals debate concepts they don’t understand like proportionality Israeli’s are growing their economy and becoming stronger. Just consider how devastating Gaza was to hamas. The kill ratio was 150-1. Hamas also has a new fear. What if the next time Fatah following in after Israel? What if Fatah decides to treat the members of Hamas with the same courtesy they treated members of Fatah in Gaza after the elections? You were all OK with it then. I am sure you’ll be fine the next time. Of course that would mark the end of Hamas.

  • 53_3

    Is this rant a version of “Liberals Fear FOX Because of Large Audience Following”?
    .
    Liberals -> Hamas
    FOX -> Israel
    Following -> Econocmy
    .
    Try some origniality, rdw56…

  • leglaw

    Hey Everybody: Given the piece Joe put up it’s understandable that everyone is focused on the split between the AIPACers and the rest of us self-haters, but how cool is it that Israel is about to deploy a system that could save lives of innocents. No doubt, those determined to terrorize civilians will find other ways, but perhaps this defense system will do some good. How about focusing on that instead of the idiotic take of those at Commentary.

  • rdw56

    Not quite sure your point but what does it matter if it’s original if it’s dead on? What does Fox have to do with anything? I was accurately mocking the concept of moral standing as worthless while pointing out economic and military power drive everything. Is there really a lot of debate on that? My 2nd point about Israeli and European economics is a matter of easily obtained facts. Israel is growing substantially faster than it’s neighbors and Europe and the trends are well established. It’s not hard to see what happens simply trending the numbers. This weird liberal notion that Israel is unpopular in America is simply contrary to all facts. The war with Gaza was widely supported. Obama’s confrontation with Netanyahu is deeply unpopular in the USA and Israel. Thomas L Freidman was flummaxed Israeli’s aren’t shaking the US President is furious with them. The US Congress has already made it clear they do not support Obama. He’s not cutting aid. The Israeli people are safe behind their fence and their economy is booming. We all agree they whacked Hamas and I think we all agree Hamas is threatened by Fatah moreso than by Israel. So when I have obvious facts tell me why I have to be original?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Most airhead libs took proportionality to mean there was some acceptable ratio of reprisal. As in if they kill one jew the jews can kill one arab.”
    .
    Well there is a left wing, Marxist saying that no conservative, Christian or Jew would ever say called “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” (rather than I blind your entire family for the loss of my tooth and I knock all of their teeth out for your tooth.
    .
    Oh, wait, that is from deep in the Judeo- Christian tradition “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” It is not leftist. It is not Marxist. It is not even slightly new.
    .
    Also, when you respond with military force where bystanders are killed it, turns into, “knock out one of my teeth and I’ll knock out the teeth of every single person who you never met and has nothing to do with you in their neighborhood.” It breeds new terrorists to kill Israelis.
    .
    At this point, and the Liberals in Israel have been aware of this for a long time, there are more cautious tactics which involve extremely few civilian deaths.
    .
    This is the issue, not that Israel should never do anything. It should act with precision and caution to defend it’s reputation as peace loving people who loath civilian deaths of anybody as much as it defends it’s people.
    .
    It’s called holding the moral high ground.
    .
    In World War II the US and England did an amazing job of holding the moral high ground except for the bombing of Dresden and about one or two dozen Axis power deaths due to our negligence or anger.
    .
    It is how we won the peace even better than the we won the war.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The kill ratio was 150-1. ”
    .
    The Nazis had a policy of five to one for the resistance movement and usually picked the actual friends and relatives of the resistance fighter to kill rather than dropping bombs arbitrarily.
    .
    “Exactly when, where and how was the USA ordained as the moral leader of the world?”
    .

    We, absolutely, were the moral leaders of the world at the end of the second world war and, even after European recovery, during a vast majority of the forty seven years of the cold war.
    .
    I don’t know about “ordaining” the Messiah, Ronald Reagan may have been the one who ordained us back when, during World War II he bravely announced sports on the radio and fought fascism with fast balls.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Saving civilian lives of Israelis is as important as any other civilian lives, but, this is doubly wonderful. Not only will this directly save lives, but, when Israeli civilians do not die, there will not be 150 times that many Palestinians killed in retaliation and, maybe, a few less lunatics who will want to come over here and set off fire crackers in their car and fail miserably at killing us in Time Square.
    .
    Yes, this is wonderful for Israelis, Palestinians and Americans.

  • rdw56

    pat,

    The Israeli’s didn’t design a kill ratio. The concept of proportionality is you are expected to do what is necessary to elimnate a threat. In this example the goal was to end the hamas practice of shooting rockets into Israel. Proportionality says if Israel must kill 100 hamas terrorists to end the practice then it is moral to kill 100 hamas terrorists. If it takes killing 100,000 hamas members to end the practice then it is moral to kill 100,000 hamas members. It is not moral to kill 101,000.

    ONe of the many reasons why Gaza was such a disaster for Hamas and the American left is Hamas continued to shoot rockets into Israel ev en after it was clear they were getting a decisive beating. It never mattered if Israel took out 1 or 100,000 Hamas thugs. It only mattered they stopped AFTER it was clear Hamas stopped firing rockets into Israel.

    Now for some reason that’s a very difficult concept for liberals to grasp. But that’s not your major problem. The problem is sane Americans uderstand it intuitively.

    The 150-1 kill ratio wasn’t an Israeli designed plan. It was the result of Hamas taking far too long to realize they gained absoloutely nothing in US public opinion. Whle ABCNews and the NYTs and Time were not reporting Hamas was still shooting rockes Fox had the video.

  • rdw56

    “It breeds new terrorists to kill Israelis.”

    That’s simply not true. Terrorism is a political tool used against cowards. The reason Thomas L Freidman was so shocked the average Israeli was unconcerned Obama liked or disliked Netnayahu is because he had no idea the average Israel doesn’t give a crap about Obama. What can Obama do? The reason Hamas stopped is they were going to start running out of people. There hasn’t been a suicide bombing in Israel in 4 years. The security fence is great. They can’t get in Israel. They lob rockets in and kill jews they can expect another 150-1 kill ratio but this time it’s far more dangerous. This time Fatah might follow Israel into Gaza and what then? Hamas has no political incentive to attack Israel.

    Will the MSM lament the artocities committed by Fatah in Gaza? Not in one million years. No, you don’t negotiate with terrorists. You kill them or get someone else to kill them. To reward terrorism is to ask for more of it. The Israeli’s are sitting safe and secure and getting ever more prosperous every day. Yet the Israeli’s are hardly sleeping. It seems Syria has provided Hezbollah with Scuds. Allow me a prediction. If a single scud lands in Tel Aviv the Presidental palace and major goverment buildings in Damascus will disappear. They will be turned into dust. What happens next is anyone’s guess but I’d not like to be part of that minority baathist govt that has been oppressing it’s people for 5 decades after those people find out the military has been eliminated. Whatever happens in Syria it will be extremely bloody and devastating to the muslim world.

  • rdw56

    Anyone clued into the irony Obama has opposed investing in missle defense his entire life?

  • rdw56

    Pat,

    get your Reagan history right. RR did sports reporting in the late 20′s and early 30′s after getting his economics degree from Eurical college. He did film work stateside for the military during WWII. It must burn you ass that great war hero John Kerry was taken down by the SBVs.

    Just for the record pat, how many years did you serve? It’s been my experience the people questioning the service of others have rarely served themselves.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The 150-1 kill ratio wasn’t an Israeli designed plan.”
    .
    Agreed. It is the result of gross negligence and incompetence of the Israeli Army.
    .
    Here is something very hard for the conservative brain to grasp: countries do not share one collective brain. You could be Mother Theresa of Muslims (or Palestinian Christians – there are a good deal Palestinian Christians) and have no idea that somebody a block down the street from you is making bombs in their basement and – boom!- you are killed by an Israeli rocket. Worse yet, that particular rocket may well have missed the actual bomb makers.
    .
    George W. Bush is in Texas. So, should I, randomly tell everybody from Texas to go F themselves since dubbya was one of the worse disasters in US history?
    .
    No.
    .
    So, try hard to get your right twisted brain untwisted to see what really happens:
    .
    First, Hamas fires a rocket killing innocent Israelis.
    .
    Second, using ham fisted tactics the Israelis kill five innocent people for every terrorist.
    .
    Third, Palestinians, using exactly the same right wing twisted thinking “defend” themselves and, due to the innocent deaths have an easy time doing so, by recruiting two new terrorists to replace the ones killed.
    .
    Fourth, innocent Israel civilians get killed.
    .
    Repeat and repeat again until the entire country is useless and the right wing dream of endless revenge comes true: lots of money for weapons producers.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “It must burn you ass that great war hero John Kerry was taken down by the SBVs.”
    .
    Actually John Kerry was completely exonerated and it was proven that the Swift boat Captains were lying through their teeth.

    “Just for the record pat, how many years did you serve? It’s been my experience the people questioning the service of others have rarely served themselves.”
    .
    At the beginning of the Iraq War in 2003 I was medically disqualified. I appealed hiring a cardiologist who assured them several times that I did not have a heart condition, but was still refused.
    .
    Two years later I got through the medical for the NYPD but did not end up joining. It was clear that the Army had made a terrible mistake by not letting me serve.
    .
    I presume you were drafted and had a choice of serving or going to jail.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Anyone clued into the irony Obama has opposed investing in missle defense his entire life?”
    .
    He is opposed to fake missile defense known as “Star Wars” which the Soviets tried first in 1972 and nobody has found it to do anything successful other than to enrich the military industrial complex at the expense of tax payers, but, Republican ideology is to tax the poor and give to the major corporations.
    .
    As for other defense systems, I do not believe he ever opposed SUCCESSFUL defense systems against rockets.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “. Terrorism is a political tool used against cowards…”
    .
    While cheering it on but hiding at Harvard from even practicing at the Alabama Air National Guard, GWB was, absolutely, a coward.
    .
    So, if Gore were the president, nobody would have used terrorism against us.
    .
    Gore may have been a photographer in Vietnam, but, he sure as hell didn’t hide.
    .
    Hamas has no shortage of volunteers. They are loosing public support in preference to Fatah, because Fatah has successfully negotiated with terrorists.
    .
    Please show me one – just one – article to say that Hamas does not have more volunteers than ever?
    .
    “No, you don’t negotiate with terrorists. You kill them or get someone else to kill them.”

    How about the IRA?
    .
    They are now in a coalition in a provisional government of Northern Ireland and nobody is getting killed.

  • rdw56

    pat,

    your example is bizarre. There hasn’t been a suicide bomber in Israel in 4 years. That means they didn’t create a single terrorist in Gaza.

  • rdw56

    pat,

    Kerry blew the election. The SBVs prevented him from becoming President. He was never exonerrated anyway. He was asked to do what Bush did. To release all of his records. This was in 2004. It’s 2010. He hasn’t signed the release. Want to know why? This is the best part! Kerry can’t release his military records because they have all of his test scores. For some strange reason the MSM was all over GWBs test scores, which he released. But they weren’t interested in Kerrys. Think there was a reason for that bunky??????

    You betchya!

  • rdw56

    The IRA gained nothing. There has been no change in the status of Northern Ireland. They are and will remain part of the UK and not part of Ireland. The IRA was defeated.

  • rdw56

    I don’t care how many volunteers Hamas has. Where are they? What are they doing? Chances are if they’re killing anyone it’s a member of Fatah. They’re not killing jews.

    They have an impossible dilemma. They can fire rockets into Israel but if they do they’ll get the living crap beat out of them. This time however it’s far more dangerous. Because this time Fatah is likely to follow Israel and start eliminating Hamas their way. Hamas knows you. They know how liberals operate. You are pure PC. Fatah could drag hamas members into the street and peel their skin off in front of their families and you would not say a word. You would be paralyzed. Israel is now content to keep Gaza embargoed while they suck cash out of the UN and they grow GDP 7%.

    Check out the math. Growing 7% Israel adds around $15B to GDP per year. They have been lowering defense spending as a percent of GDP but assuming 8% that’s about $1.2B MORE in defense spending they’ll have in 2010 v 2009. IN 2011 it’s about $2.5M MORE. Gaza is a welfare state bleeding the UN and EU dry. Israel spends more on defense than Gaza spends on everything. It’s almost obscene.

  • rdw56

    pat, pity you didn’t get a chance to serve but still you’ve shown you’re not much of a thinker. I’ve no need to defend Reagan. His place in history is well established. You can tell somone who’s never served by how clueless they are. One doesn’t tell the army what they’ll do. The army tells them. Reagan as it happens had very bad eyesight and wasn’t getting near a gun. So the army did something highly usual. They found a man highly skilled at narration and filmmaking and used him at narration and filmmaking

    It is so typical of a liberal who’s never served anything but himself to trash a man who’s actually served his country.

  • husein11

    Joe is so twisted in his hatred for israel. Yet one MORE column on his loathing of Israel and Israelis. He finds it “nauseating” to be called a self hating jew because he can’t come to grips with himself. May 14, 1948 is a date that which will live in infamy to Joe Klein!!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The IRA gained nothing. There has been no change in the status of Northern Ireland. They are and will remain part of the UK and not part of Ireland.”
    .
    Since the Irish Civil War in 1923, right after the Anglo-Irish War in 1922 the North did not seek to be a part of the Republic, but, instead, an independent state.
    .
    Today you have a regional government of Northern Ireland just as you do of Scotland and Wales. It has a subordinate parliament. Like Scotland and Wales, it has a standing in Great Brittan like that of Puerto Rico does to the US.
    .
    All levels of government have affirmative action for Catholics, previously unable to get government jobs in Northern Ireland.
    .
    The police force, previously known as the Royal Ulster Constabulary is now known as the Police Service of Northern Ireland or, to Catholics (native Irish, not of English or Scottish ancestry) Seirbhís Póilíneachta Thuaisceart Éireann.
    .
    The regional parliament has control over the police force.
    .
    It is true that MI-5, British domestic counterintelligence (the counterpart to the counterintelligence division of the FBI but not tied to Scotland Yard as the FBI is tied to it’s own criminal investigation unit) is still, to the dismay of some, still present in the North.
    .
    However, it is, at worst, a half victory for the IRA.
    .
    Unrest under the English crown goes back to the thirteenth century during the Anglo-Norman conquest.
    .
    It’s been close to eight hundred years of conflict since the Anglo-Norman conquest of the four Kingdoms of Ireland.
    .
    My brother was in both the Republic of Ireland and the North this Summer and it was wonderful.
    .
    I hope Israel takes a shortcut and negotiates now instead of waiting for another seven hundred years the way the English did.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    He narrated films.
    .
    That is as brave as staying home.
    .
    Carter served and was a commander of a submarine.
    .
    Reagan’s service was a joke.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “They know how liberals operate. You are pure PC.”
    .
    You don’t know the first thing about Liberals that Fox does not tell you, so, how would you know if somebody else knows us?
    .
    Israel has a very large Liberal minority themselves. Our press is dominated by AIPAC.
    .
    “Fatah could drag hamas members into the street and peel their skin off in front of their families…”
    .
    Have you ever heard of an IRA “kneecapping”?
    .
    It is not done with a baseball bat like the mafia. It is done with a shotgun at point blank range to any of the four limbs.
    .
    A kneecapping is done for fellow Catholics only.
    .
    The IRA saved it’s real violence for the the Ulster Volunteer Force. They exchanged bombings.
    .
    The IRA death for a collaborator who talked with English Authorities was to be dragged from your home, forced upon your knees with a bullet to the back of the head.
    .
    “.. and you would not say a word. You would be paralyzed…”
    .
    You, obviously, don’t know the first thing about me if that is what you and your chickenhawk right wing buddies think of Liberals.
    .
    World War II was fought by Liberals against right wingers and liberals were as brave as hell.
    .
    If it was a a “conservative only” Army for World War II it would not have been one quarter the size it really was. America was very, very, very liberal during the second World War, far more liberal than today.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    July 23, 2008 was the last terrorist attack I could find in a two minute search of Hamas, but, I believe it was long after that.
    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/23/world/middleeast/23israel.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Terrorist%20attack%20Israel&st=cse
    .
    Your concept of four years is extremely exaggerated.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Growing 7% Israel adds around $15B to GDP per year.”.
    “Published: 09.22.09, 08:45 / Israel Business

    More and more Israelis are poor, hungry, and abstain from seeking medical attention for themselves. This is the bottom line of the report published Monday afternoon by the Central Bureau of Statistics in honor of the International Day for the Eradication of Poverty. The report shows that 40% of children in Israel in 2007 were at poverty risk, as opposed to just 33% in 2001″
    .
    Besides peace with the Palestinians, which will calm the entire world, I hope near starvation for many of Israel’s poor ceases. With just 7% growth it will be years before Israeli children no longer go to bed hungry.
    .
    You, obviously, are not much of a thinker.
    .
    You believe anything Fox News tells you to believe.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “It is so typical of a liberal who’s never served anything but himself to trash a man who’s actually served his country.”
    .
    You have absolutely no idea who I am, so, this is just a random personal insult by somebody who has no argument to defend an unfounded belief.
    .
    Your knowledge or Ireland is 0.
    .
    Your knowledge of Israel is very, very weak.
    .
    Your knowledge of the majority of the United States who elected Obama is 0.
    .
    Yet, you are sure that you know what I want and who I am?
    .
    It is a common symptom of paranoid schizophrenia to believe that you can read other people’s minds.
    .
    Maybe back at the mental ward you believed you served in the military.
    .
    Why you go back to your medications and stop imaging that you can read minds and know all about everybody from their screen name.

  • rdw56

    Pat, those stats are made up by a special interest group. The GDP stats are the official data compiled by the govt. The reason I said to google Thomas L Freidman is so you could read the words of a reliable far left liberal. It was Thomas L walking around propserous Israel shocked they were so unconcerned about the anger of the American left and the leftist President. You don’t have to take my word for it.

    As far as the attacks from Hamas I believe you are reporting rocket attacks. I said suicide attacks. As you know there was a great deal of angst and fury among the American left outraged over the construction of the fence. They rather likes the idea of the two populations mixed and jews defenseless. Well the fence did as all fences do. Jews can live normal lives and focus on business. Barak can rant all day long. The fence will still be there.

  • rdw56

    Pat, the only people who attack the sevice of others are people who never served anything themselves. Your ignorance could hardly be more obvious. What does Ireland have to do with anything?

  • rdw56

    “World War II was fought by Liberals against right wingers and liberals were as brave as hell.”

    WWII was a war between fascists and communists, both are religions of the left. Conservatism is about small govt. We are anti all of the big govt isms especially Obamaism. The USA joined the battle to bail out Europe a 2nd time. Modern conservatism is the reflection of classical liberalism which is about mans freedom from the totalitarian state. Modern liberalism is the exact opposite.

  • rdw56

    I’ve always wondered about this self-loathing jew thing. I think the more accurate term is self-loathing liberal. American jews in many instances are no more jewish than many 3rd and 4th generation Americans are Irish or Italian or German. They might be jewish by birth but religious evangelicals and catholics have a much deeper affinity with Israeli’s for the shared religious persecution and simply moral convictions.

    There is no question the strongest source of political support for Israel comes from the American right. A majority of self-described liberals could cut off aid to Israel tomorrow. It’s a measure of how self-absorbed and clueless they are that many beleive Obama actually could cut off aid. While he too would do so in a minute Congress would immediately over-rule him. Cutting off aid to Israel simply is not an option.

  • rdw56

    “You believe anything Fox News tells you to believe.”

    It’s pretty cool for a conservstive to see this obsession. The fact is you wish it was just Fox. The new media is huge and far more powerful than Time. When Joe went to work for Time he expected by this point to be an elder wiseman respected across the land much as UNcle Walter has once been. Instead a majority of people who follow the news consider him a buffoon. At a minimum these MSM columns make fools out of themselves pretending to be centrists and unbiased. Joe understands most of this and is perpetually outraged. As with most people rage is not a positive emotion. Joe wanted to be what Charles Krauthammer is. A lengend in his own time. Joe is so consumed by jeolousy he wrote a column smoe months back attacking Charles for taking such strong positions on Iraq while sitting in a wheelchair. As Joe explained, because Charles was unable to visit Iraq as Joe had he was unable to form a more nuanced opinion as Jeo had. Of course the statement was mindnumblingly stupid which Joe realized when asked how his favorite President managed. The grotesque stupidity was confirmed when Joe was asked about his position on the surge. Of course Joe bitterly opposed the surge mocking it on several levels including military tactics. Joe the lib taking on General David Petraeus on military tactics. Yeah, that’s a fair debate. Joe was of course dead wrong. The column was preposterously stupid. Liberal men tend to be over-emotional and very high strung and thus prone to writing and talking before thinking.

    The problem with Fox isn’t Fox. It’s everything else. It’s youtube and google and search engines. It wasn’t 5 minutes after Joe posted his comments and John Podhoretz had a list of quotes from Klein and Krauthammer on the advisability of the surge. Klein was comically wrong and Kraithammer dead on correct.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “”It must burn you ass that great war hero John Kerry was taken down by the SBVs.”

    .
    “A major part of the SBVT controversy centered on the group’s testimony. The SBVT statements were accompanied by sworn affidavits, although one affiant, Al French, later admitted he had no firsthand knowledge of what he had sworn to.[55]

    The first SBVT ad was contradicted by the statements of several other veterans who observed the incidents, by the Navy’s official records, and, in some instances, by the contemporaneous statements of SBVT members themselves.

    Several major newspapers were also skeptical of the SBVT allegations. For example, a New York Times news article stated, “on close examination, the accounts of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth prove to be riddled with inconsistencies.”[56] Regarding the medal dispute, a Los Angeles Times editorial[57] stated, “Not limited by the conventions of our colleagues in the newsroom, we can say it outright: These charges against John Kerry are false.” The editorial argued this position on the basis that “Kerry is backed by almost all those who witnessed the events in question, as well as by documentation.” On August 22, 2004 The Washington Post reported: “An investigation by The Washington Post into what happened that day suggests that both sides have withheld information from the public record and provided an incomplete, and sometimes inaccurate, picture of what took place. But although Kerry’s accusers have succeeded in raising doubts about his war record, they have failed to come up with sufficient evidence to prove him a liar.”[58]

    The ABC television show Nightline traveled to Vietnam and interviewed Vietnamese who were involved in the battle for which Kerry was awarded the Silver Star. These witnesses disputed O’Neill’s charge that there “was little or no fire” that day; they said that the fighting was fierce.[59] SBVT supporters question whether these witnesses are reliable because they spoke “in the presence of a Communist official”,[60] but their account of enemy fire is substantially the same as that previously given by another former VC to an AP reporter[61] and by the American witnesses, including the only SBVT member who was actually present that day, Larry Clayton Lee.[62][63][64][65] ABC News’s The Note opined, “the Swift Boat ad and their primary charges about Kerry’s medals are personal, negative, extremely suspect, or false.”[66]”
    .
    “According to information released by the IRS on February 22, 2005, more than half of the group’s reported contributions came from just three sources, all prominent Texas Republican donors: Houston builder Bob J. Perry, a longtime supporter of George W. Bush, donated $4.45 million, Harold Simmons’ Contrans donated $3 million, and T. Boone Pickens, Jr. donated $2 million. Other major contributors included Bush fundraiser Carl Lindner ($300,000), Robert Lindner ($260,000), GOP contributor Aubrey McClendon ($250,000), George Matthews Jr. ($250,000), and Crow Holdings ($100,000).[72][73][74]”
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_Vets_and_POWs_for_Truth#Truth_of_allegations
    .
    “Pickens never served in the military[3] but instead attended Texas A&M on a basketball scholarship but lost the scholarship[3] and transferred to Oklahoma A&M (now Oklahoma State University), where he majored in Geology. He is a member of the Sigma Alpha Epsilon Fraternity. He graduated from Oklahoma A&M with a degree in geology in 1951. Following his graduation, Pickens was employed by Phillips Petroleum. He worked for Phillips until 1954.[4] In 1956, following his period as a wildcatter, he founded the company that would later become Mesa Petroleum.[4]”
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._Boone_Pickens,_Jr.
    .
    Your SBVT hero is an oil man who never joined the military.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Pat, those stats are made up by a special interest group.”
    .
    Actually their GDP numbers are identical to yours and they are an academic group.
    .
    Poverty does not mean a low GDP.
    .
    You just failed Econ 101.
    .
    If you have ten people making a billion dollars a year and four hundred and ninety people making $0 per year, then average of the room is twenty million dollars per year.
    .
    GDP does the same thing.
    .
    Just like all of the other wing nuts I see here, if facts and right wing philosophy disagree, then you throw out the facts and stay with your opinions.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “What does Ireland have to do with anything?”
    .
    Well, seven hundred years of terrorist resistance should be a lesson for Israel to learn from.
    .
    Obviously, like most conservatives, you believe that every country and every ethnic group are from different planets and do not think the same way. Among other things, you assume that Palestinians like blowing things up and getting killed in a 150 to one ratio while only Americans dislike being murdered.
    .
    How about what is the difference between terrorism in Ireland vs terrorism in the Middle East?
    .
    Until the separation of the real IRA from Sinn Fein the IRA used to call in advance to do as much property damage as possible and to kill as many police as possible without killing civilians. The real IRA is fading away due to lack of support after the Omagh bombing of 1998 intentionally killed as many civilians as possible.
    .
    Ireland has not used suicide bombers.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “…both are religions of the left.”
    .
    Hitler came to power with the conservative party. Fascism is an extreme version of conservatism: huge military spending, nationalism, flag waving, anti-immigration, religious obsession, politicizing of religion (like how Hitler created the Reichs Church to support “German Christian Values” cutting of aid to the needy, wars of aggression (like GWB attacking Iraq) and a hatred of liberals and social democrats.
    .
    The Nazis sent five soldiers to kill communists for every one to fight democracy.
    .
    Social Democrats, Communists and Liberals were in the concentration camps before Jews and Gypsies.
    .
    You just failed political science 101.
    .
    You are strikingly ignorant.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Liberal men tend to be over-emotional and very high strung and thus prone to writing and talking before thinking.”
    .
    Look at your typing and mine.
    .
    I am terrible at typing, yet, am moving slowly and calmly and not making any typos about “Jeo”.
    .
    You are so overly emotional that you are not even proofreading.
    .
    “It’s everything else. It’s youtube and google and search engines.”
    .
    Then how was I able to use those same things to completely blow every statement you said to kingdom come?
    .
    On another post you told me that you know that I want higher taxes per se?
    .
    Then you are saying that I was never served anybody but myself.
    .
    Then you tell me that you know that I am overly emotional.
    .
    Actually, there was a study done I could link to you that shows that conservatives have a much greater reaction to stress than liberals do.
    .
    Of course you will write it off no matter who did the study if it does not come to your conclusion, so, I am going to go have some coffee up the street for a little while and see if you can possibly justify your outrageous and unfounded opinions.
    .
    BTW: I guess I have to ask you since you know all about me, how do I take my coffee? Actually, I think you might have little voices in your head which tell you that you are reading minds of liberals. Medication and treatment, while expensive, is available RW56.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Pat, the only people who attack the sevice of others are people who never served anything themselves.”
    .
    Like T Boone Pickens, who never served hired people to lie about John Kerry protecting Dick Cheney, who never served and George W Bush who was hiding at Harvard during his practice drills in Alabama.
    .
    I was unable to serve.
    .
    Bush and Cheney both hid from service.
    .
    Let me get that coffee. I think I know how I like my coffee without a conservative who is sure that he knows every synapse in my brain tells me what I think. (BTW: a synapses are the nerves of the brain. I am sure that you thought that this concept, too, was a liberal invention)

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “I’ve always wondered about this self-loathing jew thing. I think the more accurate term is self-loathing liberal. American jews in many instances are no more jewish than many 3rd and 4th generation Americans are Irish or Italian or German.”
    .
    Mein FuhrerRW56, you’ve come to tell us who a “real” Jew is?
    .
    You’ve already used your cartoonish imagination to tell liberals what we are like down to our sock, now you are going to define for us what a “real” Jew or a “real” Irishman are.
    .
    America was founded by liberals who refused to be a colony of another country. They were liberals tolerant of, but rarely participating in religion other than weddings and funerals. Thomas Jefferson was not a Christian, but a Deist.
    .
    Immigration before the 20th century was a border crossing followed by a checkup for communicable diseases and a swearing in.
    .
    Creating a nationalized package delivery system and public libraries were the first two orders of business. Today, although the term did not exist yet, your right wingers would call those thing “socialism” since, although poorly, could be done by the private sector for a profit.
    .
    Your ideas are new and twisted.
    .
    Liberals adore America. This is our home. Liberal is our national tradition. We are disgusted by torture being done in our fine country’s name. We are disgusted when allegiances with dictators and, in the case of Israel, cruel and inhumane democracies tarnish our reputation and tradition.
    .
    Conservatives do not seem to have this love.
    .
    Conservatives act out of fear and self loathing. Conservatives loath how we did not torture during World War II when their were German subs in the port of Manhattan, sinking so many ships that along the Eastern Seaboard beaches were closed.
    .
    Conservatives want to do new things with our government as in shut it down to a mere shadow of what it has been yet like to claim being traditional.

  • rdw56

    sloppy typing isn’t emotion. It’s sloppy typing. I knew you didn’t serve because you attacked other men who did. That’s a sure sign. Why even mention Reagan? Cheney would have made a lot more sense. I know you want higher taxes because you are a liberal. All liberals loathe tax cuts and are bitter over Reagan.

    You didn’t address Joe. Tell me how it is possible for an experienced columnist fully aware he bitterly opposed the surge trashing the tactical and strategic aspects to then trash another columnist who got the surge exactly right? That’s a total lack of reason and commonsense. Joe seethes daily as you do over Fox. I understand Joe is an old timer who learned his job when the MSM had a monopoly but he’s seen what Fox has done. He’s seen example after example when an old MSM guy lost and saw they get caught immediately. Look at Dan Rather. Joe had to know it would take less than 15 minutes for anyone with a keyboard to google his columns and find out he was pathetically and obnoxiously wrong on the surge. Further he had to know bringing up columns that were two and three years old to be reprinted would merely reinforce the notion these MSM columnists are in way over their heads.

    We now all know General David Petraeus is a brilliant General. He’s not a bureaucrat like Clintons appointees but a battlefield savvy General and a leader of men. You have to appreciate how contemptible it is for clowns like Joe Klein and Thomas L Freidman to comment on military tactics. That’s what Fox has done. Fox has exposed these liberal sissy’s.

    In the Rather example we got another MSM clown who just could not stand the fact a conservative President was going to win a 2nd term over the objections of the MSM. How dare the great unwashed not listen to them! That’s ‘evidence’ was the worst fraud I’ve ever seen. It was preposterously inept. Yet it made it thru the rigorous MSM system of edits. The letter was 1/2 a step above a crayon copy it was so pathetically done. It took a blogger 5 minutes to know something was wrong and then after calling a buddy of his he knew to be a software expert another 5 minutes before they knew it was produced on a PC. The show was still running on the West coast. While the Joe Kliens refused to run it Rather and CBS were still destroyed because Fox did run it.

    How is it possible Joe thought he could trash Krauthammer on the surge and the world would not find out it was Joe who had it 100% wrong? What was he thinking?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “I knew you didn’t serve because you attacked other men who did. ”
    .
    Just look at the way I “trashed” John Kerry. Look at the way I “trashed” Al Gore for being a photographer for the Army during Vietnam.
    .
    If you really like reading, please, find where I “trashed” people who served.
    .
    I never have.
    .
    You trashed John Kerry.
    .
    ” Why even mention Reagan?
    Because you have a temple to Ronald Reagan with him on the cross for how he died to give tax cuts to the wealthiest and to enrich the military industrial complex. Then, after he left the White House, he huffed and he puffed and blew the Berlin Wall down.
    .
    “Cheney would have made a lot more sense.”
    No, because even most Republicans have a mediocre to poor image of Cheney.
    .
    ” I know you want higher taxes because you are a liberal.”
    No, I want a government that serves the needs of it’s people when market failures and externalities of the market fail to serve the people well. If the choice is a tax, failing to serve the needs of it’s people or deficit spending putting our expenses on our grandchildren, a tax increase is needed. If not, I do not categorically support taxes.
    .
    ” All liberals loathe tax cuts…”
    The president, arguably a liberal (but more a moderate) has cut taxes for the working poor and we are thirlled about it.
    .
    “… and are bitter over Reagan.”
    And disgusted over how Reagan sent us into deficit spending far more than any other president, cut many needed services, demonized the poor, attacked the unions, beat down working people’s wages, cut financial aid so low that it could not cover a fraction of tuition costs, ran like a coward out of Lebanon with his tail between his legs in 1982 opening the door to the idea that Americans hide from terrorism, began the trend of deregulation until the job of the SEC is to watch porn and of the MMS is to have sex with and take gifts from the people they are regulating and how he sent my tax money in 1988, when I was a teenager, to go buy poison gas for Saddam Husein to murder the Kurds.
    .
    I guess you like a bankrupt government with literal J-offs at the SEC and people, literally in bed with the oil companies, no union jobs for hard working people, tuition costs far, far beyond loans and oil pouring onto our shores and, terrorists hoping for another Ronald Reagan to cut and run from terrorism.
    .
    I don’t.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Tell me how it is possible for an experienced columnist fully aware he bitterly opposed the surge trashing the tactical and strategic aspects to then trash another columnist who got the surge exactly right?”
    .
    I was not in the Swamp then and am not going to look it up.
    .
    However, as a general rule, I can say one thing: people make mistakes.
    .
    What does the surge of 2007 have to do with anything?
    .
    Yes, it is true that Joe is not infallible. He is flesh and blood. STFW?
    .
    If you have to go back three years to find one error with Joe, then that is amazingly good since he is putting up a few articles a week.
    .
    You know, I bet you wet you bed with you were five years old. Should we care about that now?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Summary

    Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named “National Socialist.” But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship — it can only be democratic. Hitler’s other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist.”
    .
    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm
    .
    RW56, here is how for the first 70 years after Hitler came to power he was, without any doubt, to the far, far right.
    .
    Reinventing history is what totalitarians do including both Hitler and Stalin.
    .
    Just claiming that the far right is the far left just tells me how close to fascism you have gone.

  • rdw56

    It’s not about him being wrong. He is wrong all the time. It’s about how Fox has gotten into his head and the heads of all liberals. He is so furious krauthammer is everything he wants to be, influencial, he actually writes an essay saying Krauthammer cannot cover the news because he is in a wheelchair. Besides being egregiously politically incorrect and obnoxious it’s just impossibly stupid. Is there a higher God among liberals than FDR? He then goes on to compound an already grossly stupid assertion by using as the example of his superiority the surge which he got totally wrong and Krauthammer completely accurate.

    This gets to Krauthammers famous maxim. “Liberals think Conservatives are evil. Conservatives think liberals are stupid. For liberals it’s all emotion. Kleins essay was so impossibly stupid the only explanation is he was in a moment of rage or it’s an example of liberal PMS. .

  • rdw56

    “Because you have a temple to Ronald Reagan with him on the cross for how he died to give tax cuts to the wealthiest and to enrich the military industrial complex. Then, after he left the White House, he huffed and he puffed and blew the Berlin Wall down.”

    Can’t argue with you here. One of my favorite moments on MSM TV was ABCs this week with George Will interviewing Authur Schelsinger Jr. He and his father were liberal historians famous for conducting a periodic poll of the Presidents among historians. Obviously they polled academics and the results skewed heavilty toward liberals. By this point some think tanks were running their own poll with a WSJ – Heritage Foundation the most famous. Authur was near 90 at the time of this interview and knew he had done his last poll and this new poll had replaced it. Authur despised Reagan and when he did his last poll he had Reagan ranked near the bottom. Obviously the new poll didn’t. Reagan was in the top 10 along with Truman and Eisenhower replacing such liberal stalwarts as Kennedy and Truman. George knew Authur wasn’t happy but assumed at 90 he had mellowed. So George closed the interview asking, “Now that many years have passed and the emotions of the period subsided I want to give you the chance to re-evaluate the ranking of the Presidency of Ronald Reagan in light og the long economic boom and the collapse of the USSR without a shot fired. ”

    Authur was smoking a cigar at the time. He started puffing hard and it looked like a chimney. One had the sense he might have liked to put it out on Will’s face. He merely glared for a few moments and said, “I don’t think I will George”.

    But you have RR wrong. He didn’t die to deliver tax cuts. He lived to deliver tax cuts. One of the reasons Reaganwas ranked so high was his legislative acheivement in passing those cuts. Tip ONeil was the very powerful and savvy speaker of the House who fought bitterly against Reagan and spent a lot of time enraged at those who reported Reagan was dumb and lazy. Reagan put a clinic on Tip and to his credit Tip never denied it and would not allow him to be insulted in his presence. You might know Chris Matthews worked for Tip at the time. Chris will periodically go on a tirade if someone tries to call Reagan stupid or lazy. Chris devoted part of his life fighting Reagan and was on the losing side. This is another example of Kliens problem with Fox. Joe was supposed to be one of the gatekeepers. The MSM was supposed to decide what was news and what wasn’t. Joe would like everyone to think his own 1st draft of history, that Reagan was slow an lazy, was going to be the record. Instread Joe gets to choke on the realization Reagans tax cuts led to a 30 year boom and he defeated the USSR without firing a shot.

    Another cool aspect of google. If you wanted to know if Joe Klein thought Reagan’s policies towards the USSR it takes just a few minutes. Joe thought Reagan a buffoon. We needed to learn how to get along with the USSR and accept socialism as a perfectly viable economic system. The USSR was going to be around as long as we were. Not only isn’t Joe writing any draft of history but history will mock him and Time and the rest of the MSM. Reagan IS a top 10 President and there isn’t anything they can do about it.

    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Sorry,
    .
    I am a liberal who does not watch Fox, and, therefore, have no idea who Krauthammers is.

  • rdw56

    You are absolutely wrong. The definition of Nazi socialism and Italian Fascism as religions of the left has nothing to do with the use of the word socialist in Hitlers German govt. All of the ism’s are totalitarian religions. Marxism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism are all big govt, totalitarian systems. As the result they clearly and unambigiously belong on the LEFT.

    Modern conservatism is centered on a small govt platform. We are the heirs of classical liberalism which saw the state as the enemy of freedom. Every instinct of modern liberalism is totalitarian. Ask a liberal what they’d do to Fox and Talk Radio if they were King. All would shut them down immediately. Campaign Finance reform was about regulating speech. That is a totalitarian instinct. This is what Hitler, Mussolini, Lenin and Wilson were all about.

    You don’t want freedom of the press. You want to control the press.

    I am not a Beck fan although he doesn’t bother me either. One of the things he’s done I really appreciate was put Jonah Godlbergs book ‘liberal fascism’ back on top of the NYTs best seller lists several month after it had already been there. If the USA ever had a fascist President it was Woodrow Wilson. I was shocked at how aggressively the history of Wilson had been scrubbed over the years. For example I never knew he was a staunch racist and supporter of eugentics. I also never knew he made it a crime to disagree with him on WWI and put thousands in jail.

    The fact is you can’t win this argument. Wilson was a nasty SOB and we came a lot closer ot fascism than people knew. But they are learning. Goldbergs book was a huge seller and Beck and many others hammer on the facts frequently. IN fact you can expect in these Presidential rankings to see Wilson fall pretty far. No historian can deny his incredibly ugly racism nor can they ignore it. The MSM/academia coverup is over. Political correctness being what it is you will now see liberal historians dump on Wilson.

    it’s also logically impossible in the current context to classify Nazi Germany or Fascism on the right. They are absolutely positively totalitarian religions and belong with liberalism solidly and unambigiously on the left.

  • rdw56

    Krauthammer is commonly listed as one of the top 10 most influencial columnists by both sides. He started writing almost 30 years ago for publicatons like the Washington Post, Newsweek and 200 newspapers. He was one of the most well known columnists before Fox went on the air.

    Joe’s rant actually blamed Krauthammer for the invasion of Iraq (which Joe backed) because Charles had also been a guest of the GWB White House.

    I would suggest CK is the most widely respected columnist on both sides among Washington insiders and without question among conservatives. The National Review online prints his Fox transcript every day as a matter of practice. It doesn’t matter what he talks about. If you want to know what conservatives are thinking he’s your guy.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Reagans tax cuts led to a 30 year boom…”
    .
    No, look at GDP, unemployment stats and you’ll see that it lead to two years of recession, a five year boom and five more years of recession from the stock market crash of 1987 until the “It’s the Economy, stupid” winning Clinton Campaign of 1992. The economy sank again when the dotcom bubble burst in 2000 and after the terrorist attacks of 9/11 without recovery until 2003 until another downturn in 2007. As a matter of fact the economy has been very volitile since Reagan. 80% of economists call themselves Keynesian and so-called supply side economics is not accepted by business, government (even during the W administration ) and universities. It was crushed.
    .
    “and he defeated the USSR without firing a shot.”
    .
    Actually the Soviet Union was completely in tact when Reagan left office. The Soviet Union didn’t fall until 1992, three years into the Bush Sr administration. The Berlin Wall did not fall until nine months after Reagan left office.
    .
    As a matter of fact, the CIA both counted, literally triple the number of Soviet Missiles and predicted that the Berlin Wall would be up until at least 2015.
    .
    Reagan’s conservatives succeeded in amplifying the threat of the Soviet Union. The earliest reports of economic problems in the Soviet Union were in the late 1960s.
    .
    Gorbachev did not increase spending in reaction to Reagan’s initial arms buildup. He couldn’t afford to. It was only by the iron fist that the Soviets were in power at all by the early 1970s.
    .
    A command economy, which is government control over the supply, of goods and services, the price of all goods and services and wages without any market forces allowed to act on any good, was a failure. The Soviet Union caused the fall of the Soviet Union. Reagan made some cool sounding speeches three years before it fell, but, if you had, instead, a manikin in the oval office, the Soviet Union still would have fallen.
    .
    ” If you wanted to know if Joe Klein thought Reagan’s policies towards the USSR it takes just a few minutes. Joe thought Reagan a buffoon.”
    .
    I grew up during the Reagan Presidency and saw the absolute destruction of class mobility. When I was a child, people ten or fifteen years older than I am walked out the door, grabbed a union job and either could marry their girlfriend and start having children or go on to college. Also, they could sign their name and get a loan and, four years later, marry their girlfriend and, within a couple of years, buy a small home. After Reagan, both the union jobs and the student loans were in the history books.
    .
    ” We needed to learn how to get along with the USSR and accept socialism as a perfectly viable economic system. The USSR was going to be around as long as we were” .I had a double major in economics and international relations and was in college from 1989 until 1993. I have never seen anybody claim that Marxism is a viable, permanent solution as likely to thrive as a mixed economy. I believe that your statement is totally exaggerated. If not, send me a link to Joe Klein saying this.
    .
    Also, nowhere on earth has there ever been a complete “free market economy”.It is not an on/off switch between Marxism and no government. Both have proven to be disasters.
    .
    Your view of history is as if you have lived in a cave for the last 30 years and just came out this morning.

  • rdw56

    “True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship — it can only be democratic. ”

    What are you babbling about? True socialism means the state owns and controls everything. You can’t get more totalitarian and less democratic. There’s no relationship between the things you cite about Hitler and the right and reality. For example you cite racism as somehow a condition of the right. It was the democrat party that sided with the south in the civil war. by far the most racists President we ever had was Wilson. It was Wilson who resegregated the Post office and other govt institutions. It was democrats who tried to filibuster the civil rights acts.

    Hitler was totalitarian. Hitler was a lefty.

    How do friendly relations with the church put someone on the right or left? Obama. Clinton and Carter all openly touted their religion. One of the most famous pictures of Clinton was him standing outside his church with his well-thumbed bible in his hand as he was heading back to the WH to meet Monica. For some reason that was the picture that Ken Starr released that most engraged liberals.

  • rdw56

    John Kenneth Galbraith was perhaps most famous for being FDR’s chief of the Office of Price Administration during World War II, responsible for the government’s setting of prices for everything from table salt to ocean liners at the point of a gun. His most famous postwar work, The Affluent Society (1957), drew on both his wartime experiences and the theories of Keynes to say that only the government is smart enough to decide how to manage modern complex economies, and governments should use consumption taxes to shape public behavior. Galbraith, perhaps even more than Keynes, was very paternalistic, repeatedly making the point that intellectual elites (usually in government but also in big business) must make decisions for the ignorant masses on how to manage their affairs. He was consistently dismissive of the power of the free market, and even of the classical entrepreneur, writing that it was big business that was the main engine of technological progress.

    In a recent interview, Galbraith said the collapse of Communism was one of the biggest disappointments of his life — not because he supported the ideology, but because he viewed it as a viable alternative to unbridled capitalism.

    RDW- hard to find exact quote. JKG was one of the most quote critics of Reagan by the MSM in hte 80′s. The consensus on the left was to leave the USSR be and learn to live with them. Reagan famously stated after being asked hisplan for the cold war. “We win, they lose”. Liberal men of course thought him rude.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    As your Messiah said, “wehl, there you go again”.
    .
    First, from Hitler himself as well as the rest of the world from 1922 when Mussilini came to power until about 2005 or so when Republicans wanted to rewrite history it was universally understood that the closest ally of a fascist was a conservative.
    .
    Since the far right of the US is becoming totalitarian in it’s failure to deal with reality, modern Fascists inside of the Republican party are rewriting everything.
    .
    “For example I never knew he was a staunch racist and supporter of eugentics.”
    .
    It was a hypothesis of it’s day and supported a great deal.
    .
    Woodrow Wilson’s Chief of Staff denied that Wilson liked the movie “Birth of a Nation” but only watched it to humor a college friend who had created it.
    .
    “I also never knew he made it a crime to disagree with him on WWI and put thousands in jail.”
    .
    The people he put in jail like Eugene V Debbs were liberals and socialists only. Conservatives did not protest against the war and, therefore, were safe from Wilson just as German conservatives were safe from Hitler.
    .
    “Ask a liberal what they’d do to Fox and Talk Radio if they were King. All would shut them down immediately.”
    .
    Really! I would?
    .
    I thought I would ignore them and not take on the concept of “king”.
    .
    “You don’t want freedom of the press. You want to control the press.”
    .
    I do?
    .
    Tell you what, either you listen to liberals and have US tell YOU what we believe in, or, if I say, “RW56″ dreams all day of raping, murdering and eating the dead bodies of small children” you say “sure I do”.
    .
    I have as little interest in limiting free speech as you do raping, murdering and eating the dead bodies of small children.
    .
    These concepts you have of liberals wanting to limit free speech at all since World War One and in peacetime since the founding of this country is a complete Republican lie.
    .
    Now, I’m going to go get some lunch while you rape, murder and eat the dead bodies of young children.

  • rdw56

    “The Soviet Union caused the fall of the Soviet Union. Reagan made some cool sounding speeches three years before it fell, but, if you had, instead, a manikin in the oval office, the Soviet Union still would have fallen.”

    Quite right. Your historical problem of course is it was Reagan predicting the USSR was going to collapse as a result of it’s own incompetency. The MSM was in total disagremeent. Reagan trashed communism and socialism at every opportunity. These are religions of the left and the MSM was insulted at his raw contempt.

  • rdw56

    After Reagan, both the union jobs and the student loans were in the history books.
    .

    you got that half right. Unions have not done well. The better comparison of the post 81 period is the USA versus the EU versus the world. Our share of Global GDP has been reasonably steady near 23% – 25%. for the EU it’s down almost 10%. Per capita GDP in the USA is $45K versus $32K in France, Germany and the UK. Those are decisive margins and they will continue to get wider. The single most important economic event of the last 30 years was the lowering of marginal rates from 70% to 28%. An amazing legislative acheivement. Obama wants to reverse all that but he’s not going to be around long enough. he is already on his way out. Americans do not support tax increases. We are all supply-siders now.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “How do friendly relations with the church put someone on the right or left?”
    .
    It is not “friendly relations”. It was how the Nazi government paid the salaries of of ministers and priests. The breaking of the boundaries of church and state in support of a particular church. GWB sent money to churches in his “faith based initiative”
    .
    “True socialism means the state owns and controls everything.”
    .
    Untrue. There is no “pure” socialism outside of “pure” Marxist Leninist or Marxist Maoist philosophy just as there is not a “pure” conservative or a “pure” liberal.
    .
    “[Ideal Marxist ]Socialism means that the state owns and controls everything”. Yes, under a “dictatorship of the Proletariat” with about 98% of the public being, in Marxist theory, the Proletariat. Hence, a dictatorship of 98% is called Democracy without a constitution.
    .
    Since Marx was wrong to believe that 100% of all businesses would become monopolies leading to a revolution, a new theory was invented in Russia called “Marxist Leninism” followed twenty two years later by “Marxist Moaism”.
    .
    Now, since it has never once been the case that people vote to have all goods and services owned by the government, Marx, basically, wrote a comic book.
    .
    “It was the democrat party that sided with the south in the civil war.”
    .
    False.
    .
    The Democratic party was split in half with two separate Northern and Southern candidates during the Civil War.
    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    The most pro-free speech organization in the United States is the American Civil Liberties Union.
    .
    It does not call itself conservative.
    .
    It calls itself liberal.
    .
    Also, New York was almost completely burned to the ground in weeks of endless rioting during the Civil War.
    .
    It was wrong, but Wilson’s thinking was that New York, Chicago, Philadelphia and every city and small town between would be burnt to the ground if he let liberals and social democrats speak about their opposition to the war.
    .
    Since then, we did have, relatively tiny riots to the Vietnam War while not limiting free speech.

  • rdw56

    “Actually the Soviet Union was completely in tact when Reagan left office. The Soviet Union didn’t fall until 1992, three years into the Bush Sr administration. The Berlin Wall did not fall until nine months after Reagan left office”

    Quite true and GHWB gets shortchanged in some respects but even he will admit it was Reagan’s constant pushing at the soviets for their economic mismanagement and aggressive diplomacy that led most directly to their demise. Reagan himself was the 1st to admit he stood on the shoulders of others including Truman and JFK I think you’ll admit are far more alike the neocons of today.

    One of the great ironies of the age that I think is under-appreciated is Reagan was the 1st true conservative President since Coolidge and his Presidency was only made possible by the ineptitude of Jimmy Carter. His ‘greatness’ is overstated intentionally by conservatives in large part because it drives liberals crazy and he is such a terrific story. Like GWB he loved being misunderestimated and used it to his advantage his entire life. Leave it to elitists like Joe Klein to see anyone less liberal than he as stupid. Reagan never took offense instead using their arrogance to his advantage.

    His media guru and very close aid Michael Deaver had dozens of stories from people like Teddy Kennedy and others walking out of meetings with Reagan with a smile on their face, content with the pleasant meeting but no so sure as to what they accomplished. Teddy of course walked into the meeting knowing he was far more accomplished, learned and smarter than Reagan and walked out just as confident. Somehow I doubt Teddy ever did come to grips with the fact Reagan was President for 8 years and ignored him every day of those 8 years.

  • rdw56

    The Democratic party was split in half with two separate Northern and Southern candidates during the Civil War.

    and both opposed the war.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Price controls is a not a part of Keynesian Economics.
    .
    It was, to a limited extent, practiced in many wars worldwide.
    .
    Nobody advocated price controls in the United States nor Nazi Germany during peacetime.
    .
    In reality, the war between the Axis and the allies was won and lost not due to the number of soldiers, but, due the quantity and quality of armaments.
    .
    All of the allied and access powers both had these controls as temporary measures.
    .
    During peacetime JKG was opposed to price controls and, instead, supping Keynesian Economics.
    .
    Just as Richard Nixon did not believe in a draft for no known reason, but did for the Vietnam War, JKG did not believe in price controls except for the extreme demands of World War II.
    .
    Had we not had better and more weapons, we might be speaking German or Japanese right now.

  • rdw56

    First, from Hitler himself as well as the rest of the world from 1922 when Mussilini came to power until about 2005 or so when Republicans wanted to rewrite history it was universally understood that the closest ally of a fascist was a conservative.
    .
    Since the far right of the US is becoming totalitarian in it’s failure to deal with reality, modern Fascists inside of the Republican party are rewriting everything.
    ***********************************************

    You make no sense. Reagan’s entire program was to roll back government in favor of individual freedoms. The entire point of cutting marginal tax rates was to free up the individual entrampreneur from the hand of govt tyranny. Conservatives are by definition anti-totalitarian. You can’t be for smaller govt and bigger govt at the same time. We are clearly and unambigiously for smaller govt. Every liberal instinct is totalitarian. You want gov regulation on everything. More govt is a purely totalitarian instinct.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    The United States is, with the long term affects of Reaganism, ninth in per capita income behind:
    .
    Luxembourg, Norway, Qatar, Switzerland, Denmark, Ireland, Netherlands and the United Arab Emirates.
    .
    Qatar and the United Arab Emirates are oil producers. The other seven did EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what Ronald Reagan did.
    .
    Ireland was the poorest or second poorest country in the EEC for the past 40 years. Doing the opposite of what Reagan did made the economy so good that Irish Americans would be far better migrating to our ancestral homeland than staying here.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Reagan’s never academically accepted Supply Side Economics believed that marginal taxation was important.
    .
    No other theory believed so.
    .
    With modern labor economics, it appears as if the labor curve bends backwards relative to the standard supply and demand curve. That is, for goods and services the higher the price the higher the supply of the goods.
    .
    For labor, the higher the post-tax wages, the more hours an employee wants to spend that money with friends and family rather than locked up in the office doing work.
    .
    So, if you want higher output, raising, not lowering the marginal taxation rate may convince the most skilled workers to work longer and harder producing more goods and services for the economy.

  • rdw56

    you did not address communism, socialism or big govt liberalism versus small-govt capitalism. As far as Nixon note I am talking about conservatives and liberals not democrats and republicans. There was a decisive shift in the democrat party post-68. By todays standards JFK is a staunch neocon. The 1st supply-sider any reasonable person would put him to the right of Reagan. There was a similar shift in the GOP after Nixon. Reagan was the 1st true blue conservative. GWB was a hibrid. GWB was not a small govt conservative. Nixon was republican but hardly a conservative. His anti-socialist chops were standard for the era for both parties. Ronald Reagan was the leader of the conservative movement far more closely aligned with classical liberalism than modern liberals and anti-totalitarian across the board. All of the totalitarian religions of the last century belong on the left.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Reagan’s entire program was to roll back government in favor of individual freedoms.”
    .
    No, like Hitler supported a breaking of antitrust laws,Reagan supported large business taking over, the breaking of democratically elected unions in favor of large corporations taking control. Since Reagan, large businesses have grown dramatically and small ones have been crushed along with workers rights.
    .
    Reagan wanted to protect corporations from the will of the people. This included during W’s adminstration the castrating of MMS and the SEC to prevent government from protecting people from fraud and dissaster.
    .
    “You can’t be for smaller govt and bigger govt at the same time.”
    .
    Sure, you can vote for the Patriot Act giving the government the right to listen in on your phone calls and read your email while supporting an administration that lets the regulators and regulations go to hell and, eventually, cause the very disasters that the people wanted these regulations on.
    .
    Fascism has been called the “corporate state”.
    .
    In a fascist society when gathered into monopolies, corporations are able to have more freedom than ever before, but, individuals lack freedom.

  • rdw56

    “For labor, the higher the post-tax wages, the more hours an employee wants to spend that money with friends and family rather than locked up in the office doing work.”
    .

    Classic liberal thinking. It’s totally perverse. Give the laborer less of the fruits of his own labor so he had to work a lot more to pay his mortgage. Nice of you.

    it’s also dumb. It assumes the laborer has no alternatives but to work for the benefit of gov. But as the greeks know there is a larger underground economy the more repressive the govt. My son-in-law is a carpenter and like so many he’ll work a certain number of hours for benefit and tax purposes and then go under the table . Seems he had a hard time understanding when he builds an addition why he gets half and you get half. And he is a democrat.

    This is why Reagans goal in cutting tax rates wasn’t in cutting tax revenues. He wanted to restore the incentives to work and invest.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The entire point of cutting marginal tax rates was to free up the individual entrampreneur from the hand of govt tyranny.”
    .
    The entire point of reducing taxes on the wealthy was, since the likelihood of voting is proportional to income and of campaign donations is proportional to income to get huge campaign funds and win elections ruthlessly by manipulating religious people with hallow phrases like “God Bless America” and to stay in power regardless of the long term effect on the overall good of the United States.
    .
    Just as you thank Reagan three years after he left office for the fall of the Soviet Union, then you have to thank right wing policies of GWB for the mess we just dragged the whole world into.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “It assumes the laborer has no alternatives but to work for the benefit of gov.”
    .
    No, that is a recipe for economic growth due to a study released recently.
    .
    The reason one would tax the high wage earners the most is to give tax breaks to the lower 80% to 90% of the public.
    .
    Democracy is about benefiting the majority. Right wing ideology is all about using government to make the rich richer at the cost of opportunity for the poor.

  • rdw56

    Reagan never favored corporations understanding what was then and remains common knowledge. The source of innovation and entraprenaurship as well as jobs has always been the small business sector. Reagan was supportive of technology and other startups such as Intel and Microsoft which were quite small in 1980. At&T was broken into 8 pieces in 1984.

    Reagans entire premise was to free the individual to work and invest and get govt out of their way.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    As a Liberal, I can tell you that Liberals ADORE tax cuts so long as they are tax cuts for the lower 50% to 95% of the people.
    .
    Just as you defined what I am without my consent, you, personally, like to rape murder and eat the dead bodies of small children.
    .
    Typical of conservatives to eat dead children.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Reagan was supportive of technology and other startups such as Intel and Microsoft which were quite small in 1980.”
    .
    His tax policies may have helped them become mega corporations which are very large and, especially Microsoft, have been notorious for smashing small, innovative businesses.
    .
    If you are saying that he admired these companies when they were small, then, on average, so did Democrats. Silicon Valley is very, very liberal and admired, also, by Democrats.
    .
    ” Reagans entire premise was to free the individual to work and invest and get govt out of their way.”
    .
    The reality of that theory is to shut down regulators such as MMS the SEC, the anti-trust division of the DOJ, the EPA or castrate them until they are useless.
    .
    Then, when they become useless, the disasters they were designed to prevent happen all over again.
    .
    This is why Reagan’s actual legacy is overwhelmingly large deficits mostly paid off by Clinton, huge stockpiles of nuclear weapons which were not being matched by the former Soviet Union and castrated government unable to save people from market failures.
    .
    Hence, the man was a disaster almost as bad a GWB.

  • rdw56

    your comments on those small countries is backwords and they’re not comparable anyway. You can compare such small economices with any as large and diverse as the USA. They also have generally very homogenuis populations limiting comparisons. Moreover all are special situations. Norway’s wealth is due almost entirely to North Sea Oil and Gas while Luxemburg and Switzerland benefit from long time banking and neutrality advantages.

    If you look at the CIA factbook you’ll see the USA ranked 11 at $46.6K. Ireland is 16 at 42.2 and switzerland 19, Netherlands 22 France is 40th and by 2020 won’t be in the top 50.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Thomas Jefferson is far, far more similar to Republican thought than Democratic thought and Abraham Lincoln is far more similar to modern Democratic thought than Republican thought.
    .
    However, Democrats immediately cooperated in congress when the South began to secede from the union.
    .
    McClellan did want to petition for Peace in 1864, but, was completely defeated.
    .
    Also, McClellan was a terrible general who refused to attack Richmond and ended up prolonging the war by months if not years. Lincoln should have removed him far earlier than he did.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “You can compare such small economices with any as large and diverse as the USA.”
    .
    True, the United States has a massive advantage due it’s size and diversity and should be out earning all of these small countries by a huge margin.
    .
    Being a large country helps a great deal as does cultural diversity.

  • rdw56

    The reality of that theory is to shut down regulators such as MMS the SEC, the anti-trust division of the DOJ, the EPA or castrate them until they are useless.
    .

    No it isn’t. you need regulators for the same reason you need cops. The EPA was created by Nixon. Conservatism isn’t anti-govt. It’s anti-big govt. unlike liberals who seem to workship academic accomplishment as if it’s something productive all jobs and functions need some level of regulation. We are a nation of laws and those laws have to be enforced.

  • rdw56

    This is why Reagan’s actual legacy is overwhelmingly large deficits mostly paid off by Clinton, huge stockpiles of nuclear weapons which were not being matched by the former Soviet Union and castrated government unable to save people from market failures

    You are clueless. Reagan had the same goal as Obama. He wanted to eliminate all nukes. He also negotiated the largest reductions of stockpiles of all Presidents. Obviously todays deficits are far larger and Clinton didn’t pay his own deficits off.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Quite right. Your historical problem of course is it was Reagan predicting the USSR was going to collapse as a result of it’s own incompetency.”
    .
    Wrong.
    .
    Ronald Reagan spent money which Clinton paid back a dozen to twenty years later against a country he believed he was spending into the ground when, in reality, Gorbachev was already economically handicapped and just stood back and watch us spend huge sums of money on material which is incredibly hard to dispose of for no reason.
    .
    Until several years after the Soviet archives were opened, Reagan worshipers believed that if Reagan did not spend our money like a drunken sailor we would be speaking Russian right now.
    .
    When the facts overwhelmed them that the Soviet Union was not much more than a scarecrow, Reagan worshipers then stopped talking about anything other than Reagan’s fun speeches.
    .
    The last I heard, Reagan worshipers were saying Reagan had such an amazing gift of gab that by just listening to him the Soviet Union fell apart.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “..liberals who seem to workship academic accomplishment as if it’s something productive…”
    .
    “The source of innovation.. Reagan was supportive of technology.”

    .
    Sir, academic accomplishment, especially those with corporate backing, are the source of innovation in all economies.
    .
    How do you invent a new computer without academics?
    .
    Do you just take a high school drop out and have him play with parts until he builds a better computer or, do you take a room full of monkeys and typewriters and hope that one of them writes A Tale of Two Cities.
    .
    Corporate innovation and academia go hand in hand.
    .
    The Soviets had amazing scientists, but, due to having monopolies without the possibility of competition the scientific work was just looked at and left sitting there.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Sorry, but Clinton paid off Reagan’s debts as Democrats, by raising taxes, pay off debts while, in order to gain votes from the wealthy, cut taxes on the wealthy and spend the money of the next Democrat in advance.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms

  • rdw56

    As a Liberal, I can tell you that Liberals ADORE tax cuts so long as they are tax cuts for the lower 50% to 95% of the people.

    The lower 50% don’t pay federal income taxes. The fact is Obama will probably be able to let GWBs tax cuts to roll off but this election cycle is going to be a disaster for liberals. Not only will the GOP take back the house and possibly the senate but the new congressmen will be far more fiscally conservative. Even the new democrats will be more fiscally conservative than the democrats they replaced. The mood of the country is overwhelmingly in favor of spending cuts and lower tax rates. Check out the Christie video. The NJ governor might very well be the next VP of the USA in 2013.

    Also keep your eye on the fiscal health of the red versus the blue states. NJ, NY, MI, CA and a dozen others are fiscal disasters. On average the Red states are in much better shape. Texas now has more jobs than CA and CA has virtually no shot at creating jobs. They have impossibly high tax rates, high electric rates and stupitfying red tape. VA just landed a big boeing consolidation over MD and DC based in it’s much lower cost of business. McDonell is committed toward lowering taxes. MD passed a millionaires tax two years ago. They have half as many millionaires. never saw that coming.

    What you are seeing is another major economic realignment that will be faster this decade than the last 4. Virtually all of the blue states have been on a tax increase binge. One can live in SF and pay about 12% more in state taxes than in Reno. Few people will do so. Look for the blue states to lose 7 to 12 seats in this next realignment. NY could lose 3. Texas could gain 4. It’s actually going to be worse in 2020.

  • rdw56

    Sorry, but Clinton paid off Reagan’s debts

    Sorry but Clintons own deficits were higher than his surpluses.

  • rdw56

    Debt increased 700B under Clinton

  • rdw56

    We get innovation from the private sector not academia. The chip was developed and advanced in private labs not at harvard. There is a role for govt in non-profitable basic research but most of our major commercial advances have been far outside academia. That’s why the USSR had to steal everything.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “No it isn’t. you need regulators for the same reason you need cops. The EPA was created by Nixon. Conservatism isn’t anti-govt.”
    .
    “According to Lindell, [Republican Majority Leader Tom} DeLay called the EPA “the Gestapo of government.”"
    .
    In many instances the Republic Party does oppose the EPA’s ability to enforce laws.
    .
    Cutting funding and relaxing supervision of government agencies regulating these industries for the protection of the people is what Republic party people have consistently done since Reagan.

  • rdw56

    “Abraham Lincoln is far more similar to modern Democratic thought than Republican thought.”

    Not even close. Lincoln could never understand how one man could morally justify taking the benefits of another mans sweat. You want 5% of the population to pay your bills.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “September 27, 2000
    Web posted at: 4:51 p.m. EDT (2051 GMT)

    WASHINGTON (CNN) — President Clinton announced Wednesday that the federal budget surplus for fiscal year 2000 amounted to at least $230 billion, making it the largest in U.S. history and topping last year’s record surplus of $122.7 billion.

    “Eight years ago, our future was at risk,” Clinton said Wednesday morning. “Economic growth was low, unemployment was high, interest rates were high, the federal debt had quadrupled in the previous 12 years. When Vice President Gore and I took office, the budget deficit was $290 billion, and it was projected this year the budget deficit would be $455 billion.”
    Clinton
    President Clinton announces that the federal budget surplus for fiscal year 2000 is the largest in U.S. history

    Instead, the president explained, the $5.7 trillion national debt has been reduced by $360 billion in the last three years — $223 billion this year alone.

    This represents, Clinton said, “the largest one-year debt reduction in the history of the United States.” ”
    .
    http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/09/27/clinton.surplus/
    .
    Sorry, you’re wrong again.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The federal government of the United States imposes a progressive tax on the taxable income of individuals, partnerships, companies, corporations, trusts, decedents’ estates, and certain bankruptcy estates. Some state and municipal governments also impose income taxes. The first Federal income tax was imposed (under Article I, section 8, clause 1 of the U.S. Constitution) during the Civil War…”
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States
    .
    Sorry, wrong again.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “We get innovation from the private sector not academia. The chip was developed and advanced in private labs not at harvard.”
    .
    Sorry, wrong Cambridge, Ma University.
    .
    Harvard Students go to MIT to study computers and the like.
    .
    Google was created as a graduate school project. (And I assume you can Google Google without my giving you the link myself).

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    You are forgetting other taxes such as social security and the like.
    .
    Also, it is closer to 40% who do not pay federal income taxes.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “What you are seeing is another major economic realignment that will be faster this decade than the last 4. Virtually all of the blue states have been on a tax increase binge. One can live in SF and pay about 12% more in state taxes than in Reno. Few people will do so. Look for the blue states to lose 7 to 12 seats in this next realignment. NY could lose 3. Texas could gain 4. It’s actually going to be worse in 2020.”
    .
    New York City has had if not the very highest close to the highest taxes anywhere in the United States for about the past 100 years.
    .
    If the tax money pays for good schools, a good police force, city colleges (only in NYC), Community Colleges and State Colleges, you expect the economy in states which provide these things well to do far, far better than the economy brand states which cost little to live and make living and working their dangerous and uneducational.
    .
    Low taxes does not equal economic growth.
    .
    Haiti has far, far lower taxes than the United States and they are the poorest in the Western Hemisphere.
    .
    Mexico need to hire and pay police far, far, far better to control their crime problems. To do this, they will have to pay higher taxes now and then have the economic benefits later.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “By todays standards JFK is a staunch neocon.”
    .
    Advocating National Health Care among other liberal things JFK by today’s standards would be called a Communist and Richard Nixon inventing the EPA and OSHA would be considered JFK’s communist twin brother.
    .
    Johnson’s loony opponent in 1964, Barry Goldwater was the mentor of Ronald Reagan. Hillary Clinton was an admirer of Barry Goldwater.
    .
    Goldwater was considered so right wing that when his campaign slogan was “in your heart you know he’s right” the Democrats retort was “in your guts you know he’s nuts.”
    .
    Except for the EPA and OSHA created by what we would now call left wing extremist Richard Nixon (then called conservative – but we went way, way, way to the right since then) the SEC, the FDA, the MMS… all of your regulatory agencies were created by Democrats.
    .
    No elected or prominent person tied to the Democratic Party is advocating government ownership of profitable private businesses outside of health insurance due to the fact that health is the most basic necessity in life and far out of reach of the life of the working poor.
    .
    So, Democrats are the other pro-capitalist party, just not the right wing extremists who believe that market forces should determine if you get to go to a doctor or not.
    .
    The American Communist Party and several communist-like parties in total make up only about 100,000 people combined out of one hundred and fifty million eligible voters.
    .
    So, it is the difference between Democrats who believe that private ownership is the default position unless there is a shown dramatic need for government ownership and non-regulation is the norm unless their is a dramatic need for regulation while the Republic party is against all government regulation and all government ownership (and even was privatizing the Army to Haliburton and Blackwater) outside of law enforcement.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    The Manhattan Project was done at all Universities, no private businesses involved.
    .
    Also, the arpanet was invented in 1968 so that research information between places like MIT, UC Berkley and The University of Chicago to military bases. This sped things up creating a massive computer system invented by universities.
    .
    Fact check this: the person who said that he created the legislation that civilianized the Arapnet to become the internet never said that he invented the internet and did write that legislation.
    .
    University researchers with government money created this very internet we are using and it was civilianized by Al Gore’s legislation.
    .
    No money to Universities = no internet.
    .
    No Al Gore = Internet for DoD only.

  • omgamike

    I am against giving Israel this and my reasons are simple and straightforward. We already give Israel in excess of 3 billion dollars a year. Why cough up another 200 plus million. If they want this system, let them pay for it out of the monies we already are giving them. For that matter, why do we continue to give them all this money every year? We can no longer afford to be so generous to a country that has, in all reality done nothing of significance for us. Every time we turn around one member or another of their government is insulting our government and its policies. Kind of like biting the hand that feeds you, so to speak.

  • rdw56

    Pat. the 1st income tax was a flat tax of 3% on all income above $800 and was not intended to be redistributative and designed to only pay for the civil war. Lincoln explained the immorality of slavery as one man taking the benefits of another mans work for his own benefit. The liberal ideal of a progressive tax is to get someone else to pay their bills.

  • rdw56

    No I am not wrong. You are wrong using your own sources. You cite 2000 without mentioning 93 thru 99. A child could see through you.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    RDW56,

    I do know the end results of conservative policies: deficits, huge profits for the military industrial complex, radically reduced spending on infrastructure (roads, bridges – often to the point of danger), services to the poor, a weakened wall between church and state, castrated regulatory agencies, huge deficits, impositions on constitutional rights and, often, recessions. However, I do not say, as you do “you conservatives” very often and, with you, mostly out of mockery.
    .
    You ask, “why would would any of you who might call yourselves liberal or progressive recommend higher taxes?” not that you know all about liberals.
    .
    You are not a liberal, so, you have to ask a liberal what he thinks.
    .
    When I hear the same thing over and over from conservatives I hear the same mantra about rewritten history and Hitler was a hippie, the millions killed between Hitler and Stalin was done just for fun since they had the same ideas, that liberals want to take away things from you, that liberals are cowards, etc, etc.
    .
    Ask a liberal why liberal ideas are out there and get an answer.
    .
    Can summarize why conservatives believe what they believe: fear and greed.
    .
    If somebody can tell you that the way to make a poor man rich is to cut off all aid until he is on the verge of starvation or something totally insane like that, if it means lower taxes, you will believe it. Also, you are in constant fear.
    .
    Liberals are always looking for the most unbiased answers possible from universities and non-profits to find out the truth rather than just listening to hired spokespeople for profit earning businesses who each can tell you why they are the one and only business that should not be regulated. Listen to them all at once without outside facts and, except for the military and the police, all government should shut down.
    .
    Listen to disinterested third parties and you will get sometimes there is a need for more regulation and other times there is a need to decrease regulation and, sometimes there needs to be a tax increase and other times there needs to be a tax decrease.
    .
    If I want to know about conservative’s thinking, I ask a conservative. I do not tell you what I have hypothesized is in your head.

  • rdw56

    Intel is famous for Moore’s law which states chip capacity doubles every 2 years or so. Intel does all of it’s R&D in it’s own labs. Ditto AMD and all of the major electronics manufacturers.

    The govt has a steadily decreasing role in basic science as the role of the private sector is exploding. MIT does great work and there is a large partnership between many schools and corporations but the fact is most technological advances are now done outside govt and academia.

  • rdw56

    “Fact check this: the person who said that he created the legislation that civilianized the Arapnet to become the internet never said that he invented the internet and did write that legislation.”

    NO need too. Al Gore did as he always does in greatly exaggerating his role in inventing the internet. While the criticism was somewhat overdone he’s such a horses ass he deserved it. I think your characterization of it being an academic effort is wrong. While academics were involved it was a defense department effort looking for a backup communication system if an atomic bomb took out phone lines.

    I am not saying academia does not do R&D. I am saying they are substantially less important than pre-reagan and mostly because of the economic boom after Reagan. Intel, H/P. IBM, CISCO, etc are all powerhouses assisted by hundreds of smaller companies working at the cutting edge. Further it’s more of a glogal effort. A company like Intel grows revenues 10% a year and thus can increase R&D 10%. There is no way govt can match that growth.

  • rdw56

    “You are not a liberal, so, you have to ask a liberal what he thinks”

    Why can’t I just read Joe Klein.

  • rdw56

    “Also, you are in constant fear.”

    And here I thought I had a pretty good life. Exactly what is it I fear?

  • rdw56

    No money to Universities = no internet.
    .
    No Al Gore = Internet for DoD only.

    That’s just stupid. The internet is far advanced beyond anything originally visualized. If Al Gore had his druthers he would go back and block the internet. He would have been President if the MSM was able to keep it’s monolopy. George Clooney is one of the savvier hollywood libs. He understands his limitations and the fact if he were to pretend to lecture people on politics they’d tell him to STFU. During an interview some years ago he was asked about his biggest regret regarding the evolution of the media and he didn’t hesitate. He hated the emergence of the new media. He wanted to go back to the day when there were just 3 networks deciding what was news and what wasn’t news. Like Joe Klein George despises Fox and Limbaugh and pretty much everyone else he disagrees with.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Joe Klein more often is described as a “third way” Clinton-like Democrat and, if you just ask him questions, he rarely responds.
    .
    I am not saying just me.
    .
    I would say about 65% of the people who post here consider themselves liberal and twenty five percent consider themselves moderates.
    .
    It is just ridiculous for somebody say that they know what every person who identifies themselves with an ideology are all carbon copies of one another.
    .
    Should I guess that when you go hunting you get drunk and shoot your friend in the face since Cheney did?
    .
    It would be wrong to say that since you are conservative and Bush and Dick were conservative that you got every exemption possible from Vietnam. For all I know you could be 90 years old or twenty years old and, if you say you served, then I believe you served.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “If Al Gore had his druthers he would go back and block the internet. He would have been President if the MSM was able to keep it’s monolopy.”
    .
    And you are a draft dodger since Bush and Dick were, right?
    .
    If you say “I don’t like Wendy’s Cheeseburgers” that does not mean that you are planning to ambush me and kill me when I am at the drive through to buy one.
    .
    Second, who gives a flying duck about actors and actresses?
    .
    I don’t.
    .
    Also, Gore never once said that he invented the internet – not once.
    .
    He said exactly what was true: he helped create the internet through legislation. Bush’s campaign made a joke about it and, Gore’s people were asleep at the wheel and he never responded. So, all of you wingnuts think that he really said it when he didn’t.
    .
    “…Fox and Limbaugh and pretty much everyone else he disagrees with.”
    .
    I, like many liberals, like John Stossel, George Will and did like the late William F. Buckley.
    .
    These are people who told or tell the truth and then use the same facts as the rest of us have but find an interesting way to come to a different conclusion.
    .
    Fox people lie constantly.
    .
    I dislike people earn millions of dollars a year lying or, like Sean Hannity, taking money designated for charity for his own pockets.
    .
    Al Gore believes very strongly in the first amendment and, therefore, would oppose almost all restrictions on the internet.
    .
    I hope you are not confused with the regulation maintain Net Neutrality. That is a pro-freedom of speech movement. Without it, right wingers or, in theory, liberals could pay the most and you’d see what somebody else pays for you to see immediately but not see what an individual does without long download times.
    .
    I would be unsurprised if Fox took Net Neutrality and made up a story that it was about censorship when it is anti-censorship.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    The Federal government, terrorist, increased taxes… all of those bogymen that Limbaugh tells you are under your bed when you go to sleep at night.
    .
    In my NYPD interview I was asked “what is your worst fear?”
    .
    “Unemployment.”
    .
    Since, out of a huge country of 300,000,000 people those 3,000 are an incredibly low number, I do not fear terrorism more than would fear a lightening storm. (I sleep like a baby through lightening storms).

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The internet is far advanced beyond anything originally visualized.”
    .
    So has electricity, but does that mean that you do not believe that Thomas Edison (or for a better comparison his financial backers) were very important to our history?
    .
    In a perfect world, there are two things I would like:
    .
    1) Right wingers who lie incessantly like Limbaugh gain a conscience and spend the rest of their lives apologizing for their misleading people with total lies
    .
    2) Conservatives like yourself who could, otherwise, be reading and watching things from intelligent and honest conservatives like George Will will look at these people like the Fox people and say “this guy is so full sht” and stop watching until Hannity will have to go back to fixing toilets for a living again.
    .
    That by no means suggests any more than your opinion one way or another about who makes the best cheeseburger would mean that you would ambush me for going to Wendys that I would ever contemplate the government shutting down any broadcast company that does not use the long established forbidden words or have live porn on public television.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Pat. the 1st income tax was a flat tax of 3% on all income above $800 and was not intended to be redistributative and designed to only pay for the civil war.”
    .
    First, “What cost $800 in 1860 would cost $18875.39 in 2009.” http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi So, like Democrats, he was taxing the very richest of the very rich.
    .
    Second, it is not the goal of taxation to see people have less money.
    .
    It is the goal of taxation to provide what the people need determined by the people who get elected fulfilling a campaign promise while not taking away from people’s needs.
    .
    You can’t, for example, have a flat tax of $10,000 per head and then give out $10,000 per year to the disabled and take it all back again and call that government. You can be like a Nazi and murder the disabled or let the disabled die.
    .
    So, if the Democrats said that only people making $18875.39 will pay the taxes for everybody, would you be happier considering that this is less than 1% of all Americans?
    .
    If not, if you were alive to see Abe Lincoln’s taxes, you would be screaming bloody murder. That is why Lincoln was a liberal.
    .
    Liberal comes the very “to liberate”.
    .
    What did Lincoln do?
    .
    He Liberated people who owned nothing from the rich and powerful.
    .
    What do Democrats do when market failures cause financial catastrophes or dire poverty?
    .
    We liberate people from market failures with the best regulation we can find and the most effective administration we can.
    .
    Today’s conservatives liberate corporations from the will of the people to create much more wealth for the wealthy at the cost of the overwhelming majority of the people.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “No I am not wrong. You are wrong using your own sources. You cite 2000 without mentioning 93 thru 99. A child could see through you.”
    .
    Just the way that you write makes it sound as if I make money from my views.
    .
    I don’t.
    .
    I am a commercial real estate agent. I make money from when businesses expand and need bigger office space.
    .
    Your right wing buddies like O’Liely make money from their views.
    .
    You are still wrong!
    .
    http://zfacts.com/p/318.html
    .
    How many sources do I have to show you that the deficit went down over a total of eight years?
    .
    You just hate any facts that disagree with your own wishes of what the world looks like.
    .
    I bet you were a real pain for your DI. I bet you came into the Army telling him that you knew everything until he made you do so many push ups that you had to go the infirmary afterward.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The govt has a steadily decreasing role in basic science as the role of the private sector is exploding.”
    .
    This is what one can call “stimulus”.
    .
    For military reasons the government started most of the research and, when profitable goods came from it, the private sector took over.
    .
    There may be things such as green energy which the government can start out the research and, thirty years from now the private sector will be exploding in new way to find energy without creating new greenhouse gases and not being dependent upon other countries at all.
    .
    But, since it would involve a small fraction of 1% in additional taxes, today’s right wingers oppose this.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “A company like Intel grows revenues 10% a year and thus can increase R&D 10%. There is no way govt can match that growth.”
    .
    10% of Intel’s income is greater than what the US government can afford?
    .
    Your not making any sense unless you believe that Intel has far more than the entire US GDP as it’s revenue.
    .
    I am not going to look up Intel, but I assure you that they are less than one part per ten thousand US GDP. So, it would be one one thousandth of one percent GDP for the US government to match what they do.

  • ohiolib

    Fascism are all big govt, totalitarian systems. As the result they clearly and unambigiously belong on the LEFT
    -
    That is perhaps the most ignorant, partisan statement I have ever read.

  • rdw56

    Joe Klein is no more 3rd way than Ronald Reagan. The reason why the MSM is so despised are these pretensions they were centrist and objective. Joe is a far left liberal and no more objective than Dick Cheney. Newsweek is going out of business because those fools thought they were addressing the center. Their business is getting hammered because they’ve segmented themselves in the dumbest possible way. Gallup polls tell is 20%5 of the country sees itself as liberal and 40% conservative. The only people who could look at the market and try to appeal to the smallest slice are left wing ideologues. This is why you can often read Joe and know he’s spitting blood he is so furious at Fox or Krauthammer or someone else daring to offer a different opinion. My point about the Krauthammer wheelchair story wasn’t about Charles or wheelchairs. It was about Joe and his rage. How could he allow himself to become so full of hatred that he’d write such a humiliating column?
    It’s because he is a far left liberal and he is losing and he knows it.

  • rdw56

    Nancy, Harry and Barak ALL wanted to re-instate the fairness doctrine and probably would have tried if not for this Supreme Court. Hannity, Beck and Oreilly will never go back to fixing toilets. Like Palin they are are very wealthy people. Limbaughs last contract was estimated to be work $400M for 10 years based on audience projections. The fact is thanks to Obama he’s far exceeded those projections. The skill and savvy of these people goes well beyond what we hear during showtime. Limbaugh doesn’t work for the radio stations who carry him and he sells the commercial airtime. Want to arrange a boycott? Go ahead. Want to scare a sponsor? Go ahead. Kleins fury is related in part to this devastating shift he’s watched play out over 20 years. Joe is a pauper by comparison but makes a very good living. It’s not so much the money as the fame and notoriety. Limbaugh can get $100K per speech and when he decides to speak to conservative groups he’ll get 5 standing ovations. His radio audience exceeds that of all 3 network news programs plus CNN and McNBC. Klein by comparison is background noise. It drives him wild

  • rdw56

    “How do you invent a new computer without academics”

    Intel, IBM, HP are not academics. Moore’s law is a function of commercial competition totally outside academia.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    RDW56,
    .
    And these companies take high school dropouts and train them?
    .
    No.
    .
    PhD computer scientists train them.
    .
    Then, after they have learned from the Universities they do innovative things based upon what they have learned.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Nancy, Harry and Barak ALL wanted to re-instate the fairness doctrine and probably would have tried if not for this Supreme Court.”
    .
    Some on the right, also, want the fairness doctrine. That is not the same thing as putting somebody out of business.
    .
    “Want to arrange a boycott?”
    .
    No, not particularly.
    .
    “Want to scare a sponsor”
    .
    No, not particularly.
    .
    Just like a typical wingnut, I make one statement and you wish I said something else.
    .
    Look for the word “boycott” in anything I have written just like looking for anything where I disrespected those who served.
    .
    You see, you are paying attention to profiteers who make money scaring you by telling you about this evil monster called “the liberal” just like the Nazis did about the four monsters “the liberal”, “the social democrat”, “the communist” and “the jew”.
    .
    Since some profiteer who would sell you his own mother if the price was right says that liberals want censorship, you believe them.
    .
    The ACLU is LIBERAL! It is apologetically liberal. It is liberals who categorically defend even the most vile things being said by anybody including the far right who make people like your Fox buddies possible.
    .
    After watching lies on Fox, don’t forget to thank the ACLU and liberals for making sure that you have the right to hear these things, no matter how untrue they are.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The reason why the MSM is so despised are these pretensions they were centrist and objective.”
    .
    Centrist is not the same as objective and the third way is not always the same thing as centrist.
    .
    Bill Clinton was the first candidate to handle the attacks which destroyed Dukakis by saying that he was not liberal and was the “third way”.
    .
    The third way is about splitting the baby.
    .
    For example, Clinton thought that gays should be allowed to serve openly.
    .
    Conservatives opposed this. (I wasn’t in favor of the idea at the time until it became clear that thousands and thousands of former military were gay and hiding it, so that the laws against it only made people lie, not prevent the services from being disturbed by gay sex or gay sexual harassment).
    .
    So, the “third way” was “don’t ask don’t tell”.
    .
    It did very little to get anything done.
    .
    I called Joe Klien Clinton-like.
    .
    In your right wing world Clinton was a member of the Soviet Politburo, so, of course you would not understand the difference between liberal and third way.

  • rdw56

    this is getting tired. An academic is someone who works in academia. Someone working for Intel after getting a college degree isn’t an academic. They are a capitalist, working for profit. College professors are not innovators. They teach what is aleady widely known and has been discovered by others. The Harvard faculty has no more to do with Intel than the average kindergarden teracher.

  • rdw56

    It is liberals who want Fox shut down and the fairness act reinstated.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    First, there is zero evidence about anybody wanting to shut down Fox.
    .
    Second, the Fairness Doctrine had bipartisan support until it was overturned since conservatives were so upset that people on TV were like Joe Klein or, as you perceive him to be as too liberal.
    .
    Third, the opposition to the Fairness doctrine is the ACLU who are unapologetically liberal.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “. They are a capitalist, working for profit. College professors are not innovators. They teach what is aleady widely known and has been discovered by others. The Harvard faculty has no more to do with Intel than the average kindergarden teracher.”
    .
    For the second time, Harvard doesn’t teach computer science at all.
    .
    For the second time, if the government did not hire schools like MIT to invent computers, we would be using slide rules and have to meet in person rather than using the internet.
    .
    Harvard Economics professors rarely teach at the Extension school because private businesses give them extremely large fees for their consulting work.
    .
    For the second time, it works when the government starts out things and ends up becoming profitable down the road.
    .
    Are you done reciting Fox talking points or do you have more?

  • rdw56

    fighing a losing battle badly lad. We don’t have computers or the internet because of the govt. We have it because of capitalism.

    The opposition to the orwellian fairness doctrine is the American people not the DNC. The ACLU isn’t a player. They are null and void. Joe Klein is on TV. No one watches him. He can go on TV or Radio anytime someone wants to have him. People like you wanted to use the govt to force programmers to put him on to force people to listen to drivel they’d never otherewise listen to. There is a reason why conservatives dominate the free media and liberals are relegated to NPR. You can’t compete in the marketplace of ideas. You rely on a corrupt govt.

    Joe is the proverbial angry white man. The govt can manipulate the media to guarrantee him a nice salary and access but they can’t give him what he really wants. That’s respect and influence.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The Fairness Doctrine was a policy of the United States Federal Communications Commission (FCC), introduced in 1949, that required the holders of broadcast licenses both to present controversial issues of public importance and to do so in a manner that was, in the Commission’s view, honest, equitable and balanced….This doctrine was officially introduced in 1981 under the FCC chairman, Mark S. Fowler.”
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine
    .
    “Mark S. Fowler served as Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission from May 18, 1981 to April 17, 1987. Appointed by Ronald Reagan,[1] he repealed the Fairness Doctrine and spearheaded the deregulatory trend in telecommunications policy, stating, “The television is just another appliance – it’s a toaster with pictures.”
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_S._Fowler
    .
    If you call Ronald Reagan a “Liberal” then your statement makes some sense.
    .
    The Supreme Court had not forbidden the fairness doctrine at all, but supported it twelve years before it’s common usage under Ronald Reagan (who you might call Liberal).
    .

    “Red Lion Broadcasting Co. v. Federal Communications Commission, 395 U.S. 367 (1969), established the doctrine that broadcast television stations (and by logical extension, radio stations) are full First Amendment speakers whose editorial speech could not be regulated absent good reason. However, because they were granted government licenses on a scarce radio spectrum, they could be regulated to preserve openness in covering news by the FCC.”
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Lion_Broadcasting_Co._v._FCC
    .
    “Benjamin Jeremy “Ben” Stein (born November 25, 1944) is an American actor, writer, lawyer, and commentator on political and economic issues. He attained early success as a speechwriter for American presidents Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford. Later he entered the entertainment field and became an actor, comedian, and Emmy Award-winning game show host.”
    .
    See what this conservative has to say:
    .
    “Surveys of journalists show that the majority were personally liberal in the 1980s, but today they are centrists, with more conservatives than liberals on economic issues. However, no study has proven that they give their personal bias to the news. On the other hand, the political spectrum of pundits — who do engage in noisy editorializing — leans heavily to the right. The most extreme example of this is talk radio, where liberals are almost nonexistent.

    The Fairness Doctrine was designed to prevent one-sided bias in the media by requiring broadcasters to air opposing views. It once enjoyed the broad support of both liberals and conservatives. But now that the media have become increasingly owned and controlled by corporations, conservatives defiantly oppose the Fairness Doctrine. This is probably the best proof that the media’s bias is conservative, not liberal.

    Conservatives often promote the myth that the U.S. media are liberal. This myth serves several purposes: it raises public skepticism about liberal news stories, hides conservative bias when it appears, and goads the media to the right. GOP strategist William Kristol also reveals another reason: “I admit it: the liberal media were never that powerful, and the whole thing was often used as an excuse by conservatives for conservative failures.”

    In unguarded moments, however, even far-right figures like Pat Buchanan come clean: “The truth is, I’ve gotten fairer, more comprehensive coverage of my ideas than I ever imagined I would receive.” He further conceded: “I’ve gotten balanced coverage and broad coverage — all we could have asked… For heaven sakes, we kid about the liberal media, but every Republican on earth does that.” ”
    .
    Interesting coming from a conservative.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “We don’t have computers or the internet because of the govt.”
    .
    “Although mechanical examples of computers have existed through much of recorded human history, the first electronic computers were developed in the mid-20th century (1940–1945)….”
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer
    .
    “ARPANET (Advanced Research Projects Agency Network), created by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) of the United States Department of Defense, was the world’s first operational packet switching network, and the predecessor of the contemporary global Internet. The packet switching of the ARPANET was based on designs by Lawrence Roberts, of the Lincoln Laboratory.[1]

    Packet switching, now the dominant basis for data communications worldwide, then was a new and important concept. Data communications had been based upon the idea of circuit switching, as in the old, typical telephone circuit, wherein a dedicated circuit is occupied for the duration of the telephone call, and communication is possible only with the single party at the far end of the circuit.

    With packet switching, a data system could use one communications link to communicate with more than one machine by disassembling data into datagrams, then gather these as packets. Thus, not only could the link be shared (much as a single post box can be used to post letters to different destinations), but each packet could be routed independently of other packets.”
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET
    .
    “1990
    ARPANET ceases to exist

    Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is founded by Mitch Kapor

    Archie released by Peter Deutsch, Alan Emtage, and Bill Heelan at McGill

    Hytelnet released by Peter Scott (Univ of Saskatchewan)

    The World comes on-line (world.std.com), becoming the first commercial provider of Internet dial-up access

    ISO Development Environment (ISODE) developed to provide an approach for OSI migration for the DoD. ISODE software allows OSI application to operate over TCP/IP (:gck:)

    CA*net formed by 10 regional networks as national Canadian backbone with direct connection to NSFNET (:ec1:)

    The first remotely operated machine to be hooked up to the Internet, the Internet Toaster by John Romkey, (controlled via SNMP) makes its debut at Interop.

    Czechoslovakia (.cs) connects to EARN/BitNet (11 Oct); .cs deleted in 1993 ”
    .
    http://www.zakon.org/robert/internet/timeline/
    .
    The government funded all of the research on computers from 1940 and was the driving engine of development until the 1980s.
    .
    The Internet is completely created by the government.
    .
    You are loosing the argument very badly since you are not armed with any facts at all.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    This is what happens when I deal with you wingnuts:

    First, you toss out massive amounts of personal insults.

    Second, you tell us all what we believe in which is absolutely twisted and untrue.

    Third, you see facts with your own eyes and believe that Fox News and AM radio are the only sources of information.

    Point of Fact: if the Fairness Doctrine were reinstated, for every one hour of Fox’s regular broadcasts, there would be one hour of something like Air America on the same station.

    So, if you are committed to being an Ostrich and sticking your head in the sand, you may turn off Fox when it has Liberals on the Air and turn on the radio for more wingnuts before the Liberal hour starts.

    Unless you consider Ronald Reagan was a screaming liberal, leftist, communist, your concepts are absurd.

    If you consider Richard Nixon a far, far left man, then, maybe – maybe – you could see Ben Stein as biased towards Liberals.

    Ben Stein calls himself conservative and even claims that evolution never happened that we were placed here by a deity and most likely dinosaur bones were put on earth by Satan to fool us.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    So, do I have to explain to you that George Washington did not really chop down a cherry tree or that there is no tooth fairy, or are you actually learning something?

  • rdw56

    This has been hopelessly chopped up. in the 1st paragraph you say the fairness doctrine was introduced in 49 and then you say it was introduced in 81. You seem to be saying Reagan introduced the fairness doctrine when in fact he ordered it repealed. The fairness doctrine was deigned to prevent things like talk radio. The reason talk radio is dominated by conservatives is because conservstives are generally businessmen. Rush is wealthy because he understands the medium as a profit generating business. People like Al Franken are airheads. They need fascist laws forcing stations to air them. NPR would not be on air if it wasn’t on the dole.

  • rdw56

    The argument is simply over your head and a waste of time. By far the main developer of computers and the interent was private industry. The govt played in role in the basic research but as you state since the 70′s it’s been all private sector. it’s more and more private sector every year.

  • rdw56

    “Point of Fact: if the Fairness Doctrine were reinstated, for every one hour of Fox’s regular broadcasts, there would be one hour of something like Air America on the same station.”

    There is no justification for Air America. They went out of business because they SUCK. No one wants to listen to that garbage. Limbaugh makes $40M+ per year because people want to listen to him. Forcing AA on Americans would be pure fascism. Talk Radio is a Billion dollar business. Liberals SUCK at business.

    BTW: It’s not going to be reinstated. Obama and Nancy despise talk radio. Still they have no shot at getting the votes. They would be ridiculed as cowards for trying and if they did advance a bill it would be stayed until the Surpeme Court ruled it unconstitutional.

  • rdw56

    This private sector thing drives liberals up a wall and it would be worse if they understood how it woks. Intel does nearly $5B in R&D a year. Once upon a time that was all in the USA and almost all in CA. Low less than half is done in the USA and almost none in CA. CA started taxing Intel more and more so they diversified out of CA and eventually out of the USA. Their largest facilities now are in Texas which has no income tax and much lower state taxes. They have consistently been reducing headcount in CA and soon it will merely be a shell headquarters with less than 2% of it’s headcount. The same thing has happened with IBM, HP, AMD and the orther big electronics manufacturers. As CA and NY lose corporations TX adds them. Private sector R&D dwarfs US govt R&D and the gap will grow each year.

  • rdw56

    “So, if you are committed to being an Ostrich and sticking your head in the sand, you may turn off Fox when it has Liberals on the Air and turn on the radio for more wingnuts before the Liberal hour starts.”

    Just as with talk radio liberals don’t and can’t understand profits. They did OK when they had a gov induced monopoly. Look at talk radio. Cable is no better. Fox is crushing McNBC and CNN. There isn’t going to be a new fairness doctrine and no one from the govt is going to tell Fox how ti run it’s business. I believe Katie Couric has been told to consider her future because she won’t be getting anywhere near $15M. CBS has been losing money. How much does it have to piss her off Rush gets a huge raise to $40M and Katie and been told it’s over?

    Do you know Bill Oreilly at 8 and 11 outdraws Katie? Oreilly has been getting over 4M at times on just his 8 oclock show. last summer Kouric set all time lows in the 4.7M range. There is a good chance this time next year Couric will lag Oreilly. That’s a financial disaster for CBS.

    You also know Newsweek is about to go out of business? It’s still a valuable brand but it’s a loss for the left. It’s possible the new republic or someone on the left will buy it however the audience wiill still collapse and you lose the smaller brand. The fact is the liberal media is shrinking and has a lot of consolidation in front of it. Fox is making a fortune.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Liberals SUCK at business.”
    .
    Really, I’ll have to tell George Soros that.
    .
    There is no correlation between skills in business and being liberal.
    .
    Most of the hard core right wingers I see can’t manage a business and blame the government.
    .
    Also, I do not know of any real plans to reinstate the fairness doctrine. So, don’t get all nervous that your clock radio might have a liberal broadcasting insteat of a right winger.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Just as with talk radio liberals don’t and can’t understand profits.”
    .
    First, if a rerun of the X Files got better ratings than Bill O’Reilly, does that meant that there really are aliens hidden by an international government conspiracy or, does it mean nothing?
    .
    It means nothing.
    .
    Second, I’ve been through this two other times in the past three months with wingnuts. MSM combined brings in more readers than all of AM radio has listeners. Fox on Cable gets a small fraction of CBS, NBC and ABC.
    .
    The salaries per listener for Fox and AM radio are much, much higher.
    .
    Why?
    .
    Because people will ask for more money if they have to lie all day long.
    .
    The American Spectator pays it’s “journalists” nearly ten times as much as other newspapers because people hate being professional liars and putting their real name on the page.
    .
    This time, look it up yourself RWD56.
    .
    You already gave up on the argument that Fox and the right wing tell the truth more often or allow both sides as often as MSM and are now down to the fact that lying professionally makes even more money than fiction.
    .
    The Simpsons has been the #1 show on Fox for years. Does that mean that you are as dumb as Homer Simpson?
    .
    (The audience of the Simpsons is overwhelmingly Liberal.)

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “….a bill it would be stayed until the Surpeme Court ruled it unconstitutional.”
    .
    Your a constitutional lawyer now?
    .
    Claiming too many expertise by wingnuts make me think that you lied about everything and that when your draft notice came for Vietnam you were crying so hard that they had to take you to the mental local mental ward and you were deemed too cowardly to fight.
    .
    If you said, “I think the supreme court should have found it constitutional” that would not be a stretch of your credibility.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The govt played in role in the basic research but as you state since the 70′s…”
    .
    No, I said that selling computers to agencies other than the government could make a profit by the 1980s.
    .
    If somebody said to you that they wanted to borrow money for thirty years of research and you will not get a dime until about forty to fifty years from now, would you invest?
    .
    F no!
    .
    The government invested all of this money first. Then came private businesses. It’s like if a developer comes by and builds an entire neighborhood you come along and put in the cable TV and say that you invented it.
    .
    “This private sector thing drives liberals up a wall and it would be worse if they understood how it woks…”
    .
    Once again, there are tens of thousands of liberal millionaires who make more in an hour than you make all year.
    .
    Second, if Liberals do not understand the private sector, then why do modern Liberals advocate 75% of all goods and services be provided by the private sector in preference to conservatives who want 80% of all goods and services provided by the private sector. (Agreed upon, streets, public K-12 schools, police, fire, military… about 20% of the economy in total).

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “This has been hopelessly chopped up. in the 1st paragraph you say the fairness doctrine was introduced in 49 and then you say it was introduced in 81. You seem to be saying Reagan introduced the fairness doctrine when in fact he ordered it repealed.”
    .
    You, obviously, do not know how to click the link.
    .
    I did not chop it up. It was put in as a concept in 1949 but not regularly used. In 1969 SCOTUS found it constitutional. In 1981 Reagan made it a practice for all of the media of that time. In 1987, Reagan stop using it.
    .
    It was not in effect during the Carter Administration. It was first used on a daily basis by Reagan.
    .
    There was a Saturday Night Live Skit about somebody giving an alternative response to “we wish you and yours a a happy holiday.” back in the early 1980s since it was a new idea then.
    .
    Next, Ben Stein, an extremely conservative man, truthfully explains how the media was always conservative and now is very right wing.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    RWD56,
    .
    I think I should copy, paste and save my posts since you are the fourth, if I am not mistaken, wingnut who tossed me Fox Faux Facts of:
    .
    1) The Democrats are “anti-business”.
    .
    2) We have had no unemployment or recessions since Reagan due to Reagan. (Neither true).
    .
    3) Democrats want to tax so that they can tax.
    .
    4) The media is liberal.
    .
    5) Fox is closing down MSM rather than the Internet closing down everybody left right and middle.
    .
    6) Liberal and Democrats don’t make any money. (Not true).
    .
    7) Liberals are not in the military or police departments and are less brave. (Not true).
    .
    8) Actors have some influence over Liberals when most performers such as Sonny Bono, Gofer from the Love Boat and Ronald Reagan have all been conservative. Jerry Garcia of the Grateful Dead (no, I never did like that band) was a Reagan supporter.
    .
    9) Democrats are planning to shut down the right wing media.(Not true).
    .
    In the meantime, I am self employed and do want to get a few things done and eat lunch, so, I will take a few hours off while you click the links and discover that Ben Stein, a right winger, both admits that MSM is conservative and finds out that most conservatives already know this themselves.

  • rdw56

    pat, how old are you? x-files?

    The MSM news shows bring in about 18M viewers for 22 minutes of news and 15 minutes are earthquakes, trainwrecks, bad hamburg, tiger woods’ babes and other nonsense. Rush alone gets over 20M. Hannity and Beck also get huge audiences for a market in excess of 45M listeners. In terms of political influence Rush dwarfs Katie. That’s why he gets over $40M and she’ll never again make near $15M.

  • rdw56

    George Soros is a currency speculator not a businessman. He is also the cheif funder for a dozen different disasterous causes like moveon.org which cost Gore the election. He’s pissed away massive amounts of his own and other peoples money backing losing candidates.

  • rdw56

    The fairness doctrine has been widely discussed n legal blogs and even liberals agree it’s a loser for them. It’s also pathetic.

    Do your really want to show the world your just garden variety fascists? You can’t compete with conservatives in the marketplace of ideas so you want the govt to force them to let you have a show. it is a stereotype liberal men are sissies. There’s a reason for it.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Nancy, Harry and Barak ALL wanted to re-instate the fairness doctrine and probably would have tried if not for this Supreme Court.”
    .
    The Supreme court said that it is constitutional.

    .
    “The fairness doctrine has been widely discussed n legal blogs and even liberals agree it’s a loser for them.”
    .
    So, Reid, Pelosi and Barack must not be liberals if both of your statements are true.
    .
    NOBODY IS PLANNING TO BRING BACK THE FAIRNESS DOCTRINE!
    .
    You created a scarecrow.
    .
    I never supported the Fairness doctrine.
    .
    It was put into regular use under Reagan until it became clear that the opposing viewpoints were almost always more liberal than the MSM and then they stopped immediately.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “George Soros is a currency speculator not a businessman.”
    .
    So, then, is Bill Gates a computer nerd or a businessman?
    .
    Who fits your very specialized version of the word “businessman”.
    .
    The founders of Google were very public about their opposition to the Dubbya regime when, if you put in “definition; total dissaster” it came up, as a joke, an article about George W. Bush.
    .
    You are reaching for straws here RWD 56. Failed business owners are among the most right wing people out there.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “pat, how old are you? x-files?”
    .
    39
    .
    I was seeking something GOOD to watch on Fox. The Simpsons and the X-Files are the only series on Fox I ever watched.
    .
    I told you that I do not even own a TV.
    .
    As for your assessment of Hollywood let’s see if the people who get into politics from Hollywood are Liberal or conservative:
    .
    Fred Grundy, from The Love Boat: Republican.
    .
    Fred Thompson from Law and Order: Republican.
    .
    Charlton Heston: Republican.
    .
    Ronald Reagan: Republican.
    .
    I haven’t had my own TV in my life. I would occasionally see a roommate’s TV when I was younger and had roommates or a friends TV. For election night I go to a neighborhood bar and watch that TV.
    .
    I am the last person who would be convinced about things from actors.
    .
    I know the character Michael Clayton: an improbable attorney for a huge firm.
    .
    I know the CIA agent from Syriana.
    .
    I know the improbable and cool criminal from Oceans Eleven.
    .
    I do not know George Clooney. I do not watch a movie to see Tom Hanks, Ronald Reagan, Fred Thompson… I see a movie to see characters. I do not watch a movie to see actors. If they are just like they are in real life, then they aren’t very good at their job. So, if they are good at their job, I have no idea what they are like and am not very interested in what they are like.
    .
    You Republicans see an actor and confuse his roles with his personality and run out to vote for him in droves.
    .
    Liberals do not.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Ratings: O’Reilly – Hannity – Beck – Total Viewers
    .
    Weekly Factor Average – 2,800,000
    .
    Ratings: O’Reilly – Hannity – Beck – Total Viewers
    .

    Weekly Factor Average – 2,770,000
    .
    http://www.oreilly-sucks.com/politics/cablenewsratings.htm
    .
    Full TV Ratings Data for NBC Nightly News, ABC World News Tonight and CBS Evening News:

    Week Beginning ABC World News Tonight, Viewers Live+SD (million) CBS Evening News, Viewers Live+SD (million) NBC Nightly News, Viewers Live+SD (million)
    7/30/07 7.92 5.70 7.51
    8/6/07 7.81 6.02 7.49
    8/13/07 8.01 5.79 7.44
    8/20/07 8.08 6.13 7.93
    8/27/07 7.60 5.89 7.82
    9/3/07 7.81 5.47 7.78
    9/10/07 7.70 5.70 7.32
    9/17/07 7.69 6.05 7.66
    9/24/07 7.66 6.15 7.67
    10/1/07 7.57 5.67 7.46
    10/8/07 7.80 6.10 7.93
    10/15/07 8.10 6.41 8.20
    10/22/07 8.88 6.54 8.39
    10/29/07 8.57 6.22 8.26
    11/5/07 9.18 6.79 9.23
    11/12/07 9.08 6.67 9.08
    11/19/07 9.03 6.94 9.91
    11/26/07 9.35 6.80 9.17
    12/3/07 9.32 6.55 9.47
    12/10/07 8.86 6.82 9.30
    12/17/07 8.59 6.30 9.32
    12/24/07 8.49 6.86 9.12
    12/31/07 9.00 7.05 9.81
    1/7/08 9.28 6.86 9.67
    1/14/08 9.24 7.24 9.57
    1/21/08 9.67 7.13 9.64
    1/28/08 9.37 7.19 9.70
    2/4/08 9.05 6.76 6.69
    2/11/08 9.44 6.96 9.41
    2/18/08 9.21 7.06 9.63
    2/25/08 9.01 6.98 9.17
    3/3/08 8.99 6.96 9.54
    3/10/08 8.10 6.30 8.32
    3/17/08 8.46 6.62 8.92
    3/24/08 8.41 6.63 8.41
    3/31/08 7.98 5.94 8.27
    4/7/08 8.03 5.56 7.92
    4/14/08 7.51 5.39 8.17
    4/21/08 7.79 5.34 8.02
    4/28/08 7.96 5.77 8.18
    5/5/08 8.01 5.62 7.80
    5/12/08 7.92 5.67 8.16
    5/19/08 7.84 5.33 8.10
    5/26/08 7.66 5.54 7.65
    6/2/08 7.62 5.81 7.78
    6/9/08 7.49 5.74 7.98
    6/16/08 7.04 5.71 7.99
    6/23/08 6.91 5.59 7.57
    6/30/08 6.89 5.57 7.38
    .
    http://tvbythenumbers.com/2008/02/26/broadcast-evening-news-viewers-february-18-22/2775
    .
    More or less, MSM is beating the right wing more than five to one.
    .
    Sorry, all that Fox can say is that they hand out the largest paychecks to the biggest liars. It does not have anywhere near the most viewers.
    .
    Welcome to reality.
    .
    As has been said here, reality has a liberal leaning.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Failed businessmen who like the blame the government are classic conservatives.
    .
    Here is a part of the record of disasters in business done by trust fund boy George W. Bush:
    .
    ” * Arbusto, an oil exploration company, lost money, but it got considerable investments (nearly $5 million) because even losing oil investments were useful as tax shelters.
    * Spectrum 7 Energy Corp. bought out Arbusto in 1984 and hired Mr. Bush to run the company’s oil interests in Midland, Texas. The oil business collapsed as oil prices plummeted by 1986, and Spectrum 7 Energy was near failure.
    * Harken Energy acquired Mr. Bush’s Spectrum 7 Energy shares, and he got Harken shares, a directorship, and a consulting arrangement in return. Harken, under Bush, brought in Saudi real estate tycoon Sheikh Abdullah Bakhsh as a board member and a major investor. Over the next few years, Harken would turn out to have links to: Saudi money, CIA-connected Filipinos, the Harvard Endowment, the emir of Bahrain, and the shadowy Bank of Credit and Commerce International.
    o A 1991 internal SEC document suggested George W. Bush violated federal securities law at least 4 times in the late 1980s and early 1990s in selling Harken stock while serving as a director of Harken. This is essentially the same kind of activity that Martha Stewart is going to prison over. Except at the time of the investigation, Mr. Bush’s father was president and the case was quietly dropped. ”
    .
    http://alaric3rh.home.sprynet.com/science/bceo.html
    .
    I’d pick Soros or the founders of Google both with my investments and with my country long before I would invest a nickle with dubbya.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    It did not copy well, but, click the links and you will find that it is nearly fifteen to one those who watch your right wing pundits over those who watch MSM.
    .
    Fox is an annoying mosquito. It is constitutionally acceptable to impose the fairness doctrine, but, with such a tiny, annoying little mosquito and the thrill conservatives will get from saying that they are the underground, oppressed opposition is not worth it.
    .
    It is the same reason why Communists, Nazis and Holocaust deniers are allowed to speak: restrict them and it will become the forbidden fruit. Introduce facts and in the light of day they will melt.
    .
    Those groups, even more despicable than Fox, are not allowed to speak because anybody believes that they are good. They are, in the wisdom of our forefathers, allowed to speak because they are evil and will be crushed in the world of ideas without the hand of government or raising a hand in anger against them.
    .
    So, the fact that nobody – nobody – is trying to reinstate the fairness doctrine tells you two things: Liberals, not conservatives, love the constitution and Fox is far too right wing to be even considered a real threat.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “NPR would not be on air if it wasn’t on the dole.”
    .
    “…with 10% if this coming in the form of grants from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, a federally funded organization.”
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Public_Radio#Funding
    .
    NPR would have 90% of it’s funding without the government.
    .
    They get paid by listeners. The more credible they are, the more donations they get.
    .
    Fox gets paid by advertisers and, often, advertisers for companies with right wing agendas to keep the government from regulating them while they soak investors, drive up unemployment, give incredibly large salaries to CEOs (which would, otherwise go to investors, other employees or a price reduction to consumers) and get deregulation so that they can risk soaking the Gulf of Mexico with oil.
    .
    Why are advertisers paying so much for Fox?
    .
    Because they both sell their products and their political agenda to gullible people like you.
    .
    Advertise with Fox and you can get your industry deregulated. You can have scam loans to foreclose on the American dream of owning a home if you buy off Fox commentators. You can have the EPA deregulate you by having Hannity or another right winger call the EPA the Gestapo or some other kind of completely random slur.
    .
    The product that Fox sells are wingunt brains. They indoctrinate you. They tell you that there are evil little creatures named liberals out there to grab you and to vote for the candidate who will support large corporate profits over workers, consumers, investors and the waterways we get our sea food from.
    .
    NPR has to win over people by telling the Truth.
    .
    You can’t handle the truth. You have to run to Fox and AM radio to tell you fairy tales about big, bad liberals.

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