Another Critical Health Reform Report

Health reform proponents got another round of bad headlines today, as the chief actuary for the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services released a report saying that the new law will increase costs. According to an AP story by Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar, the report is “a worrisome assessment for Democrats,” showing that while cost savings could come sometime after 2020, there is little hope of reducing spending in the next ten years. This sounds pretty bad, right?

Well, it is – if you consider it in a vacuum. The truth is the actuary who wrote the report, Richard S. Foster, authored a nearly identical report released January 8, 2010. Some of his figures changed in the interim – he wrote about the Senate bill in January and this week’s report includes changes made by the reconciliation package that altered the Senate bill – but overall, Foster’s assessment is the same.

The health reform law will increase overall spending in the near future because more people will have insurance and therefore access to medical care. Those who are now going without care because of cost will, post-implementation of reform, seek care, insurance or Medicaid card in hand. Reductions in Medicare reimbursements to providers may cause some to limit the Medicare patients they accept; future cuts to Medicare reimbursements called for in the bill may never happen due to political pressure; the long-term care insurance program created by the law may be unsustainable. This is all important, truthful information and provides a worthy counter-balance to those celebrating the health reform law’s less contentious implications. But it’s worth stressing what this report is not – surprising new information that was kept under wraps during the health reform debate. For instance, I wrote a story back in December about the potential pitfalls of the long-term care program.

Ezra Klein, who supports health reform, says he thinks “the report makes health-care reform look pretty good.” I don’t know if I’d go that far, but Klein does point out a few more things to consider when evaluating Foster’s report – and news coverage of it:

The Congressional Budget Office’s estimates look at the deficit. CMS is looking at total national health expenditures. This often confuses people into thinking that there’s conflict between the two sets of numbers when there isn’t: CBO says that federal spending is going to go up to pay for the coverage expansion, but that savings and revenue will go up by even more, leading to a net reduction in the federal deficit.

CMS is looking only at the spending side. And here’s what it finds: In 2019, implementation of the Affordable Care Act will reduce the ranks of the uninsured by 34 million people and increase nation health expenditures by 1 percent.

One percent.

And that 1 percent is actually 1 percent and falling: When the legislation is fully implemented in 2016, the spending increase will be 2 percent. But cost controls kick in over those years and bring it down to 1 percent. Assuming the trend holds, the second decade will see national health expenditures fall below what spending would’ve been if the bill hadn’t passed. So that’s the bottom line of the report: We’re covering 34 million people and come 2019, spending is expected to be one percentage point — and falling — above what it would’ve been if we’d done nothing.

The bottom line is that no one knows for sure if health reform will “bend the curve” of increasing medical spending. The law will experiment with cost controls that economists and health policy experts think could curb spending, but there’s little certainty and a lot of politics likely to interfere while reform is being implemented and tweaked. Here’s what Karen and I wrote recently about cost controls called for in the law.

Related Topics: class act, cms, Ezra Klein, Health Care, health reform, medicaid, medicare, richard foster, Uncategorized
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  • newfreedomblog

    “The bottom line is that no one knows for sure if health reform will “bend the curve” of increasing medical spending. The law will experiment with cost controls that economists and health policy experts think could curb spending.”

    .
    Yes, the “bottom line” is that for the vast majority of Americans, nearly 296,000,000 MILLION people, their health care costs will INCREASE.
    .
    Seniors stand to lose the most as they see their benefits, DECREASED over the next 10 years in order to fund the 34,000,000 million this bill targeted. Overall the net cost is more money in taxes to the average tax payer. A broken promise by Barack Obama who said “I will not increase your taxes if you make less than $200,000 per year. BULL CRAP!
    .
    Isn’t life wonderful under the Democratically controlled Senate, House, and Presidency? Imagine, in 2014 you MAY have health care insurance if you are one of the 34 million currently without. Starting in 2010 YOUR taxes will increase eponentially, and where it stops no one knows.
    .
    And, to top it all off Obama will put into affect a new VAT Tax. Doesn’t that also make you so warm and fuzzy too?
    .
    Who was it that said Democrats do not TAX and SPEND?

  • http://wwrafter.wordpress.com wwrafter

    re: the AP story, if I *could* read it, it *might, possibly* change my opinion of a situation that *might* be worse if you *could* analyze the situation without the ability of millions of Americans to get medical care outside of an emergency room. Jezzus, how many qualifiers can you put in an article and still call it reporting.

    re: Taxes. Yes, please. We need to have a war tax to pay for the wars started by the GWP (let’s just rename the Grand Old Party to the Grand War Party). This tax will not be decreased until we start closing down the useless bases we maintain around the world.

    You don’t want to pay an extra $100 in taxes? Great! Decrease the size of our military empire before it crushes us.

  • apr2563

    When I first read the AP scare headlines, I considered the source.

  • deconstructiva

    Wow, Rusty, I’m impressed …NOT with your usual rants, of course, but that you didn’t attack Kate personally this time. What happened? Change of pace? Did you try to trash her the first time and the comment got deleted?

  • apr2563

    Attention High Sheriffs and Kate!
    For several days there has been a problem with the RSS feedback with comments. They are not being forwarded to email accounts. I don’t know if this involves everyone but it does some.
    .
    Was that option removed?
    .
    At the bottom of a posting the RSS comment updates is already checked. There is no option for new posts being forwarded, although I do receive them on email.
    .
    Several days ago Jay said this problem was forwarded to the High Sheriffs. Problem still exists. Has it been acknowledged and will it be fixed.

  • freeinpa

    “CMS is looking only at the spending side”

    Hasn’t that been the argument here. The US spends so much more on HC for inferior results than other industrialized countries. That won’t improve in fact it will worsen. Which is exactly what conservatives have been saying and the liberals have been, at best, whistling past the graveyard, or more likely just lying.

  • deconstructiva

    Is there an email address directly to the IT wizards at Hogwarts? I can understand NOT giving out reporters’ addresses too often – think Rusty emailing poor Kate directly every day instead of whining here – but IT should have easy access for site issues. It’s not fair for us to have to dump those things on Kate, Jay …or KT (just how much did she do behind the scenes?).

  • crdvis16

    “Yes, the “bottom line” is that for the vast majority of Americans, nearly 296,000,000 MILLION people, their health care costs will INCREASE.”
    .
    Aren’t health care costs going to increase no matter what? Wouldn’t they increase if no bill had been passed at all? Do you mean to say that health care costs will increase more because of this bill, in other words that this bill bends the cost curve up? Do you have evidence to support if that is your claim? Someone playing devil’s advocate to you might point to economists who have said they think there are cost control measures in the bill that will bend down the cost curve. Do you think those economists are wrong, and if so, why?
    .
    Thanks for considering my questions.

  • rmorris101

    And Republicans borrow and spend. Which one destroys the economy the fastest?

  • Kate Pickert

    I was not aware of this problem, but I’ll send it up the IT chain straight away.

  • apr2563

    Thanks for the response Kate. I agree with deconstructiva.
    .
    I looked everywhere on this site and the dead tree site for a way to communicate with the “Hogwarts” before I contacted one of you about the problem. Could find nothing.
    .
    It would also be helpful if the problem was acknowledged by the High Sheriffs. I don’t know if they track these problems, but one can tell by the activity on the site by commentators when there is a problem. The hits to Swampland go down significantly.

  • deconstructiva

    Which one destroys the economy the fastest?
    .
    The one that allows bad banking practices and shadow market trading (unregulated derivatives) to go unchecked. (hint to rusty, free, etc.: these didn’t happen on Obama’s watch).

  • newfreedomblog

    I might point you to the failing Post Office as a way for you to perhaps understand why costs will never be bent downward, crdvis16. Has the cost of a stamp ever decreased in your lifetime? Doesn’t the Government control the Post Office?
    .
    The healthcare law does not have any cost-containing measures. It merely has measures which will increase your taxes. Health care costs will continue to rise at above inflationary rates. This is well documented over the past year.
    .
    Basically what we have with the health care law are regulations on insurance companies that will force them to raise premiums for the addtional requirements such as “pre-existing” conditions. You will pay more for this benefit. How much more is the question, and congress did nothing to put any cost controls on the amount you and I will pay for this new benefit. What Kate cites is the CMS, Center for Medicare Services’ estimate that costs for Medicare will continue to rise. That the health care law will not have any affect on what the Government spends on paying for health care through Medicare.
    .
    Democrats had a chance to affect at least one thing in the health care law, medications. They had an amendment, the Dorgan Amendment, to allow the purchase of our medications in foreign countries. To allow for example someone on very expensive medicines to purchase those same, and equally reviewed medicines from let’s say Canada for example, at a fraction of the cost. The majority of Democrats in the Senate voted it down. Why, because a certain Democrat Senator from New Jersey whose State is number 1 in Drug Companies who lay claim to that State as their homebase wanted it stopped. Plus Obama’s “deal” he made with the Drug companies to stay out of the health care debate at the time.
    .
    Here is a listing of State by State and who has the most drug companies. Try and find a Senator who voted against the Dorgan Amendment whose State has more than 5 Drug companies. Hmm, you can’t. Still believe that your Government is out to save you any money? That your Government is working for you, the American tax payer? I didn’t think so.
    .
    http://aapspharmaceutica.com/careercenter/resources/imagespdfs/Pharmaceutical%20Companies%20listed%20by%20State.pdf
    .

  • deconstructiva

    …apr, can you track the page hits here? Replies are easy to count but I’ve wondered how’s the reading traffic by each reporter here and at curious capitalist. Who gets read the most, etc. (I would guess Joe is followed the most – post-KT – but are Jay’s numbers close also?)

  • square1

    How the f–k did we get here?

    Prior to the passage of HCR, every American’s health care would generally fall into one of three categories:

    (1) Free, governmental health care for qualifying individuals (e.g. the elderly, the poor, military personnel and veterans, and certain children and persons with disabilities). The provision of health care to these people is directly related to the federal budget and deficit spending.

    (2) Health insurance provided to individuals or groups through the private sector. The provision of health care to these people is unrelated to the federal budget and deficit spending.

    (3) Uninsured. The provision of health care to these people is unrelated to the federal budget and deficit spending.

    Costs are rising too much for category 2 and there are too many people in category 3. But the media is obsessed with the impact of HCR on the deficit. The deficit!

    And now, post-passage of legislation, the media is evaluating the legislation based upon the projected impact on the deficit 10 years out. Most Americans may be shocked to find out that, despite being told that Congress was debating health care reform for a year, Congress was actually just debating a spending bill.

  • megatronrises

    We’re covering an additional 10% of the nation.
    .
    Costs are predicted to go up 1%.
    .
    That would mean that even though costs are going up overall, they are decreasing per capita.
    .
    I think it’s disingenuous to say that “The healthcare law does not have any cost-containing measures. It merely has measures which will increase your taxes.”
    .
    The law creates exchanges and risk pools, it eliminates unnecessary subsidies to insurance companies, and attempts to change the paradigm of how care is delivered from procedure based to recovery based.
    .
    These are all cost containing measures. Whether or not they work is impossible to predict for certain, but most estimates believe the long run cost will decrease.
    .
    And though costs will continue to rise, it will hopefully help prevent out of the blue, 40% increases to premiums, as per Blue Anthem.

  • crdvis16

    “I might point you to the failing Post Office as a way for you to perhaps understand why costs will never be bent downward, crdvis16. Has the cost of a stamp ever decreased in your lifetime? Doesn’t the Government control the Post Office?
    .
    The healthcare law does not have any cost-containing measures. It merely has measures which will increase your taxes. Health care costs will continue to rise at above inflationary rates. This is well documented over the past year.”
    .
    I’m not sure your analogy to the post office is valid, at least not regarding the question I posed. The cost curve of something can be bent down without the cost ever going down, ever. Bending down the cost curve simply means that the price rises less quickly than before. I think there is a valid debate regarding how well the government runs its agencies but that general question is different from this specific question of whether or not the cost curve of health care is bent down by the recent changes.
    .
    In your second paragraph, you say that health care premiums will continue to rise above inflation rates. Again, my problem with such a statement is that it is possible for premiums to always increase faster than inflation rates yet for the cost curve to still have been bent down. The stated goal of the legislation was to bend down the cost curve, not to necessarily reduce the premium rate increases below inflation (although perhaps that should have been the goal?).
    .
    Also, you state that the health care law does not have any cost containing measures. I am no expert on this law but I was under the assumption that it does have measures that are intended to bend down the cost curve. Do you mean to say that you don’t think those measures will be effective, or that those measures really don’t exist? I think someone better informed than me might be able to point out that the law does have those (or maybe not?). How effective they might be is certainly open to debate.
    .
    The corruption you pointed out in the law making process does not surprise me at all. I didn’t check out your link but I would not be surprised to see that you are right. Things like that seem to be pervasive in the law making process and it’s embarassing (or at least should be). Maybe there were real concerns with the amendment you referenced but if it really would have made the bill better then it is something that the voters in the corrupt politician’s districts should be reminded of come campaign season.

  • apr2563

    deconstructiva: No I can’t. I am just making a subjective observation about comments. The last time we had a similar problem, comments really went down. I am sure the hits for reporters are tracked.
    .
    We know when Joe posts something not PC to the right and it’s picked up by Druge or someother RWer, the crazies descend on us locust. That’s when having RSS comments delivered to email is really annoying.
    .
    I am sure the site is evaluated, among other criteria, on the number of hits it gets. Consider 1000 words, not issue oriented but it gets tons of response. Looks good for the site, don’t you think?

  • jbaustian

    (quote)We’re covering an additional 10% of the nation.
    .
    Costs are predicted to go up 1%.
    .
    That would mean that even though costs are going up overall, they are decreasing per capita. (end of quote)
    .
    The total amount of health care provided will also decrease per capita. Health care WILL be rationed. $500 billion less for Medicare WILL mean less health care for the elderly.
    .
    We are already seeing this as doctors and clinics quit taking new Medicare patients and even drop their current patients, because they lose money on every Medicare-paid office visit. As fewer and fewer doctors are available, as the Baby Boomers start signing up for Medicare, the lines will get longer at those clinics which will still accept them.
    .
    Remember, when you are waiting for your number to be called, that Obama promised you that you could keep your own insurance plan and your own family doctor. And you believed him.
    .

  • apr2563

    http://lowdenplan.com/
    Above is a site that will help you convert your chickens into units acceptable for barter.
    Very convenient for you an your doctor.

  • megatronrises

    @ jbaustian 1.8
    .
    I hope you’re aware that the 500 billion is coming from Medicare Advantage. Right now, the government is paying large subsidies to insurance companies to provide benefits that go far and beyond what a normal Medicare recipient would receive. The subsidies are wasteful and unnecessary. So, these Medicare Advantage people are the only ones who will see a decrease in care, and that decrease will bring them to the same level as everyone else on Medicare – I have no issue with this. They still receive free care.
    .
    That doctors stop taking Medicare patients has little if anything to do with Obama. This practice has to do with doctors being enrolled in Medicare, much as they are enrolled with insurance companies. Think of it as being in an insurance network – no matter what insurance company you use, it’s a matter of finding a doctor in your network. Those doctors who refuse Medicare patients are always outside of the network, so they are paid less, and they thus refuse the “Medicare” form of insurance.
    .
    I do believe that I will get to keep my health insurance plan. Especially since they can no longer drop me for any reason related to my health.

  • freeinpa

    The financial sectors is one of the most regulated areas we have. SEC, Federal Reserve, Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, State Banking regulators, Congress

    What it shows is that the magic elixir of government oversight is silly at best. All were present Repubs and Demos now all are running and pointing fingers as they sat with their thumbs up their arse. 99% can’t even begin to understand what happened. And the 2 biggest culprits in the collapse (Fannie & Freddie) which are Government sponsored entities are skating free to protect political interests.

    Adding another 1300 page bill would not have prevented the last collapse and will not prevent a future one.

  • earljr1

    jbaustian makes a very valid point. Many Doctors ARE refusing to accept new patients and this number is expected to increase precipitously as HCR kicks in. Why? pure and simple, the overload. Add 32 million to an already overburdened system and you have the formula for chaos.Democrats IGNORED this fact in their haste to declare victory and may have signed their political demise in doing so. Most physicians (myself included) were FOR HCR, but NOT this monstrosity that was jammed down our throats. Our suggestions (the medical community) were virtually ignored and as this bills unravels, prepare yourselves for some more unpleasant surprises. You may be taking a number and waiting for a long time, to see your Doctor.

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    The thing with health insurance reform (it wasn’t really health care reform at all) is that the law does nothing to reform the industry. In reality, the health insurance are doing what they are required to do, which is to make money for their share holders. And they will continue to do just that. Paying for people’s health care needs comes secondary. Because of this, the only true reform will come from the creation of a single payer system.

  • megatronrises

    @ freeinpa 1.10
    .
    I know he’s liberal and thus a heathen in your eyes, but here’s Paul Krugman on Fannie & Freddie:
    .
    “A large part of America’s political spectrum believes, as an article of faith, that do-gooding politicians caused the crisis – that the Community Reinvestment Act forced banks to lend to minority groups, and that Fannie/Freddie were responsible for the bubble.

    I won’t spend much time on this, since it’s easy to refute. The CRA was around for almost 30 years before the problems in subprime began to develop; anyway, most subprime lenders weren’t even covered by the act. And the worst of the housing bubble developed at a time when Fannie and Freddie, under pressure over accounting scandals, were actually withdrawing from the market.”
    .
    Here’s the link:
    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/18/six-doctrines-in-search-of-a-policy-regime/
    .
    Nice try, but Fannie & Freddie aren’t the source of the problem.

  • megatronrises

    @ earljr1 1.11
    .
    jbaustian was talking about Medicare. Presumably not many of the 32 million people now being insured are going to be Medicare eligible. Since it’s an entitlement for seniors, I doubt there are many seniors who are not taking advantage of care that doesn’t cost them a thing.
    .
    So, it might be a little longer to schedule a routine appointment, say, for a check up, in the interim few years before the system stabilizes a bit to accommodate newcomers, but to say we’re going to have to take a ticket and wait in line is an exaggerated analogy.
    .
    Also, “shoved down our throats”… great way to regurgitate a GOP talking point…

  • earljr1

    Great, I happen to love chicken! But what happens, april, if some of my colleagues do not? They simply decline to see those chicken bartering patients and your wait time, to see the doctor who does, grows longer yet. See jbaustians commentary @ 1.8….he makes a very valid point. The ramifications of this HCR bill are yet to be felt. When they do start to register, expect your discomfort level to rise, accordingly.

  • apr2563

    earljr1: do you plan to take those chickens you love to your creditors? Maybe you would like to donate them to Republican campaigns. In the meantime, I hope someone on your staff has chicken feed.

  • earljr1

    Actually, april, about 50% of the patients I see are treated free, so I expect I would decline their generous offer and use my surgical skills to treat whatever problem they presented with. (and offer to pray with them, or for them, too)

  • earljr1

    Not true, megatron, a fairly high number of physicians are refusing to take ANY new patients, because their practice is overloaded and diminishes the quality (and amount of) time spent with existing patients. I am a trauma surgeon affiliated with a large, teaching hospital and can attest to the huge upswing in patient numbers and this is BEFORE the impact of HCR is felt. If you do not think wait times will increase (if you are lucky enough to find a doctor) then you are simply deluding yourself. The addition of 32 million new patients, has the capacity of breaking the system. Don’t believe me? ask your own personal physician.

  • maverick2k9

    Yes, the “bottom line” is that for the vast majority of Americans, nearly 296,000,000 MILLION people, their health care costs will INCREASE – New Rusty Blog

    Wow.. 296 TRILLION people? Tax collection from even 50% of that number should wipe out the budget deficit and the national debt.
    .
    Rusty Blog, learn to COUNT first !

  • megatronrises

    I acknowledged that wait times might be longer; please read my post all the way through before accusing me of being delusional.
    .
    Yes 32 million people is a huge number, and I do think the first couple years will be challenging, but conservative critics who are always espousing unregulated, free markets should appreciate supply & demand: if the demand for doctors in a particular area is high, there will assuredly be doctors intrepid enough to serve those areas in the name of caring for people and personal profit (2 things that normally shouldn’t mix).
    .
    I don’t think the system will break, but there will certainly be a momentary discomfort as we move towards a more comprehensive system that takes care of ALL Americans.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    wwrafter,
    .
    Agreed.
    .
    Six out of every eleven dollars worldwide on war is spent by the United States. If dollars equaled military might (which it does not, that is far more complicated and something I know that I do not know in any detail) that would mean that the US should be able to take over the entire world.
    .
    When we can next get peace, we should halve the military budget from 600 billion to 300 billion, use 100 billion to help potential enemies develop their economies (like the Marshal plan, basically) use 100 billion for for our own citizens and (Republicans be thrilled here) increase the per person tax credit by $3,333.33 and, across the board, give us all a tax break.
    .
    Unfortunately we have two wars to clean up: the war of defense and the war of aggression.
    .
    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm
    .
    When I studied Economics and International Relations just before the collapse of the Soviet Union, there was always talk of the “peace dividend”. This was supposed mean a cut in military spending giving us increases in humanitarian aid, social services while reducing both the deficit and taxes.
    .
    What happened?
    .
    Republicans and the Military Industrial Complex happened (before 9/11).

  • earljr1

    It will be more than “routine” appointments, megatron and democrats have no one to blame but themselves. We (physicians) tried our best to warn them, but were accused of being obstructionists and nay sayers. Fine, then, don’t say we didn’t try. When lines start backing up, people get angry. Take a seat in our E.R. and learn a lesson. I don’t blame them, when you are ill or injured, you want treatment and you want it now. It is physically impossible to process the numbers and this log jam will soon infiltrate our whole system. Is this what you signed up for? You accuse me of regurgitating a Republican talking point, well megatrone, the democrats did a good job of constructing that point ALL by themselves. They certainly did not seek, or need, my help!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The financial sectors is one of the most regulated areas we have. SEC, Federal Reserve, Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, State Banking regulators, Congress.”
    .
    “He said that senior officials in the Fort Worth office perceived they were being judged by the number of cases they brought, conveying to the enforcement staff “that novel or complex cases were disfavored. As a result, cases like Stanford, which were not considered ‘quick-hit’ or ‘slam-dunk’ cases, were not encouraged,” Kotz concluded.

    “Kotz also found that the former head of enforcement in Fort Worth, Spencer Barasch, “played a significant role” in quashing investigations of Stanford and sought to represent him on three occasions after he left the SEC. In 2006, he did briefly represent Stanford before being informed by the SEC ethics office that it was improper to do so.”
    .
    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63D2J120100416
    .
    Linked to the Swampland article The SEC: Still Trying to Turn the Page
    .
    The GWB WH and Republican congress in their oversight of the SEC, along with the SEC failed. Had there been a less Wall Street friendly crowd, it is likely things would have been different.
    .
    How this got into our banks, which were doing fine when regulated (but not Savings and Loans in the 1980s which were unregulated) was the repeal of the Glass–Steagall Act in 1999 after 66 years of successfully dramatically decreasing bank failures. Along party lines, Republicans voted for it and, being a “third way” president, Clinton signed it.
    .
    The Federal Reserve is a central bank, not a government owned entity and not a regulator.
    .
    So, it was when regulators began slacking off (or, with the porn issue it could be called… never mind) under Republicans this all began to happen.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “If you do not think wait times will increase (if you are lucky enough to find a doctor) then you are simply deluding yourself. The addition of 32 million new patients, has the capacity of breaking the system. Don’t believe me? ask your own personal physician.”
    .
    Right here in the Swamp there is an entire post saying that by 2016 (plenty of time for college graduates choosing medicine to do so) it will only be 20 million insured by this bill.
    .
    Also, I’ve seen articles and shown you links about this in the Massachusetts situation .
    .
    How about this one:
    ‘Thus, universal health care may have caused the run up in wait times, but this phenomenon may be short lived.”
    .
    http://healthcare-economist.com/2009/06/09/50-days-to-see-a-doctor-in-bostonis-massachusetts-universal-coverage-laws-the-cause/
    .
    Also, the 47 day wait was for new patients only in Massachusetts. Existing patients have the same wait times. In addition to finding the article, my sister-in-law gave birth to a healthy boy in April 6th and, knowing the two of them, they would have moved out of the state if they had to wait 47 days for a doctor (as would have I under those fictional circumstances).
    .
    So, the chronic doom and gloom of the right has failed to materialize just as all of the right wing bogymen fail to exist outside of Republican nightmares or are very extreme exaggerations of minor problems.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “You men eat your dinner, eat your pork and beans, i eat more chicken any man ever seen”
    .
    The Doors song Back Door Man originally by Willie Dixon.
    .
    For some reason I don’t think that line was actually about poultry.

  • apr2563

    earljr: I could never compete with your saintliness.
    Memor, humilitas est a rectum. Prosecutus Deus.

  • indianasteve

    What I am looking forward to is the ‘open enrolment’ period in the 3 weeks before the fall election when employers disclose to their employees the 2011 medical coverage options. Since the employers will have higher insurance premiums (extended dependent coverage to age 26, no lifetime spending limits, no pre-existing conditions exclusions), I expect they will pass some of these costs on to their employees, increase co-pays and deductibles, etc.
    When the 70% of Americans who were happy with their health coverage are aware of the actual changes they will face, I suspect they will remember Obama telling them there would be no changes in their situation.
    Welcome to Obamacare! It should increase turnout at the elections.
    If I was in corporate America, I would foist this on the employees just before the election so the Dems will have little time to create blowback about greedy insurance companies and unethical employers.

  • Art Pepper

    Is that a real 1% increase or a 1% increase over baseline projections?

    And yes, it’s interesting that what we get for the money (better health care for millions of Americans) has been deemed irrelevant. Of course, those millions of Americans aren’t the right sort of peope; i.e, they aren’t hedge fund managers.

  • earljr1

    You continue to live in your dream world, patrick and I, on the other hand, live and practice medicine in a world fraught with reality. These dire predictions are quite real and only time will tell who is correct. I noticed on another post that you have no intention of paying for this mandated health insurance…how astonishing is that? A liberal WANTING all of the goodies, as long as someone else PAYS the tariff. That is pretty much a liberal theme song, is it not? We see patients like you in the E.R., every day, patrick. You could buy insurance if you wanted to, but hey, go to the E.R., claim poverty and let the (suckers) taxpayer, pay your bill. I removed an icepick from a man’s chest last night. He had enough money to liquor himself up and raise hell, but NO money to pay for his health care, when his altercation turned violent. It will probably cost the county around 50k to pay for his treatment. Lovely, right?? A liberal song sung sweet.

  • megatronrises

    “That is pretty much a liberal theme song, is it not? We see patients like you in the E.R., every day, patrick. You could buy insurance if you wanted to, but hey, go to the E.R., claim poverty and let the (suckers) taxpayer, pay your bill.”
    .
    The health care bill attempts to vitiate the situation you complain about… mixed signals?
    .
    It’s one thing to be a doctor, another to be an expert in policy. However, check out how the largest retiree and doctor groups support health reform:
    .
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/19/aarp-ama-announce-support_n_506060.html

  • megatronrises

    Darn.
    .
    That was directed @ earljr1 1.20

  • megatronrises

    “That is pretty much a liberal theme song, is it not? We see patients like you in the E.R., every day, patrick. You could buy insurance if you wanted to, but hey, go to the E.R., claim poverty and let the (suckers) taxpayer, pay your bill.”
    .
    The health care bill attempts to vitiate the situation you complain about… mixed signals?
    .
    It’s one thing to be a doctor, another to be an expert in policy. However, check out how the largest retiree and doctor groups support health reform:
    .
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/19/aarp-ama-announce-support_n_506060.html

    Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/04/23/another-critical-health-reform-report/#ixzz0lyRWRnpn

  • jbaustian

    wwrafter wrote: “We need to have a war tax to pay for the wars started by the GWP (let’s just rename the Grand Old Party to the Grand War Party). This tax will not be decreased until we start closing down the useless bases we maintain around the world. (end of quote)
    .
    We have few if any “useless” bases anywhere in the world. The ones that remain in Germany may not serve much of a function right now, but they serve as an insurance policy in case unfortunate events in the next decade or two. Once you close a base permanently, and turn it over to other uses, then it is gone forever. So these bases are not “useless” even if they are absolutely necessary right now. (Plus closing them would not save much if any money, and there might be fixed costs involved with closure which would be greater than the annual operating costs over the next 10-20 years.)
    .
    Other than Germany, I would be hardpressed to name any which are “useless”. If you disagree, then identify at least one. The series of base-closure commissions have pared back the total number of bases to very nearly the bare minimum.
    .
    Patrick wrote: “When we can next get peace, we should halve the military budget from 600 billion to 300 billion, use 100 billion to help potential enemies develop their economies (like the Marshal plan, basically) use 100 billion for for our own citizens and (Republicans be thrilled here) increase the per person tax credit by $3,333.33 and, across the board, give us all a tax break.
    .
    Unfortunately we have two wars to clean up: the war of defense and the war of aggression. (end of quote)
    .
    At about 4.3% of GDP, the burden of national defense is very light. It is the rest of the federal budget that is the problem — not the military.
    .
    There is a Congressional Research Service report entitled _The Cost of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Other Global War on Terror Operations Since 9/11_ which you might find illuminating. (do your own Google search).
    .
    For instance, you might be surprised to learn that the cost of Iraq plus Afghanistan plus base security,
    reconstruction, foreign aid, embassy costs, and veterans’ health care, for the period FY2001 through the end of FY2010 is estimated to be about $1078 billion. That is not all that much more than the cost of Obama’s first legislative victory, the stimulus bill.
    .
    There are other costs — the human costs of combat casualties, family separation, and the countless hours of boredom interrupted by occasional fierce firefights.
    .
    But the benefits — the liberation of 60 million Iraqis and Afghans, the end of Saddam Hussein’s support for bombings in Israel, the disbanding of the Libyan nuclear program — these are important for the long-term future of peace in the region.
    .
    There might have been a better short-term response had the Democrats not demonstrated their hatred for George W Bush by giving aid and support to America’s enemies. It was not just the fringe of Democratic politicians, the usual suspects — nearly all of them demonstrated their fear of MoveOn and the rest of the Soros organization by joining the radicals. They feared what happened to Joe Lieberman could happen to them. In the longer run, the Democrat Party may shrink to the hard-core 20-22% — they might end up being #3 in a three-way political landscape.

  • jbaustian

    Patrick in 1.19 wrote: “Right here in the Swamp there is an entire post saying that by 2016 (plenty of time for college graduates choosing medicine to do so) it will only be 20 million insured by this bill.:
    .
    Do you think the number of applicants to medical schools will increase or decrease as a consequence of the recently passed legislation? I have heard that many students owe over $300,000 by the time they finish medical school… though there may be cheaper paths including ROTC. Still, the prospect of owing that much and then having government controlling the income of anyone who accepts government insurance, Medicare, or Medicaid must be daunting.
    .
    My niece is a 9th grader who has previously expressed an interest in the medical field. I am going to encourage her to look into veterinary medicine, as it is not yet heavily regulated by the federal government. I will also try to interest her in other possible career choices, because medicine is not an attractive choice; from now on they are only underpaid civil servants, but without immunity from personal liability lawsuits.

  • redraven937

    For instance, you might be surprised to learn that the cost of Iraq plus Afghanistan plus base security, reconstruction, foreign aid, embassy costs, and veterans’ health care, for the period FY2001 through the end of FY2010 is estimated to be about $1078 billion. That is not all that much more than the cost of Obama’s first legislative victory, the stimulus bill.

    Wow, only more than a trillion dollars? A bargain at twice the price!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Other than Germany, I would be hardpressed to name any which are “useless”. If you disagree, then identify at least one. The series of base-closure commissions have pared back the total number of bases to very nearly the bare minimum.”
    .
    A huge majority of our bases here and all of them abroad were created after the end of World War II during the Cold War. Most of them were created before the invention of the Intercontinental Ballistic Missile planning for Soviet bombers as the delivery system of nuclear weapons. With that, there was a belief that there would be aspects of a land war.
    .
    I do not know a base by base coverage of what is needed nor how many are needed, however, we now need exclusively staging areas, not bases prepared for land combat crossing over to Eastern Europe.
    .
    Approximately half of our bases are abroad.
    .
    In International Relations classes at the very end of the Soviet Union “Peace dividend” was more often talked about by professors than even “founding fathers” is said by the Tea Party. These were professors who studied this for a living. Clinton was limited in what he could do to cut back bases since there was a Republican majority pushing him hard to keep more open.
    .
    As for your dysentery about Iraq, I do not want to comment on that again. It wasn’t disliking Bush that made us believe that, basically the rest of the world, the NYT and other responsible journalist were right in saying that there were no ties to terrorism and no WMD. It was when he did moronic things like rip our country’s reputation to shreds that made us dislike Bush.
    .
    If Bush were, instead, doing things like Obama, we would have loved him. Instead, he was an idiot.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    J.
    .
    Try about $100,000 in debt.
    .
    I have a relative who is in his residency and very strongly favors HCR.
    .
    How about the rule of supply and demand? Shortage of doctors equals greater pay for doctors, attracts potential veterinarians and biologists and the problem gets solved.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “He had enough money to liquor himself up and raise hell, but NO money to pay for his health care, when his altercation turned violent. It will probably cost the county around 50k to pay for his treatment. Lovely, right??”
    .
    He spent $4,000 that night on Alcohol?
    .
    Damn!
    .
    If it weren’t for HCR, he would have been sober, right?
    .
    It is better that the country pay for his $50,000 than his employer handing him a health insurance card and having that pay for it?
    Your a communist, Earl.
    .
    I say, hand the drunk a health insurance card from his employer and bill his health insurance instead.
    .
    Of course billing a private company instead of billing the government is… socialist?
    .
    Wait, it seems as if our system of free care at the ER is socialist and private insurance is more capitalist.
    .
    BTW: when I was broke and went to the clinic tied to the ER, I got billed full price and had to send in a pay stub and other information to get down to about $30 to see a doctor for ten minutes for an ear infection. I, also, had to pay for the medicine myself at full price. I was making about $25,000 a year at that time in 2002.
    .
    Even if I paid the full price of $100 to cover people getting cut open with ice picks in addition to my own care, it would be much less than $4,000.
    .
    Looking at a patient, Earl does not tell you about the entire universe. It only tells you about one patient.
    .
    You have a very limited Universe if you do not look at studies and collected information about the real world outside of your gritty ER.
    .
    Also, I thought ice picks were out of style by the time refrigerators became the norm in the 1950s. How did his attacker find such an archaic instrument?
    .
    Was he attacked by a historian?

  • earljr1

    So now I am a communist, patrick? Has your liberal world turned upside down? I repeat my previous statement….a liberal is all about free stuff…as long as some one else is paying for it! and megatron, come on, your stuff is pretty weak. We all know what the AARP is about…they SELL insurance! and for your information, the AMA represents fewer than 30% of physicians in America and a very high percentage of those, were extremely unhappy with that coerced endorsement. Again, as previously stated, ask your OWN physician how he/she feels about this terrible bill. You might be unhappy with their answer.

  • earljr1

    Wow, not only is patrick an expert in medicine, but he now professes to be an expert on military matters. Lets see, that list includes economics, politics, history, accounting and selling real estate.( do you clean windows, too?) Is there ANYTHING, patrick, you lack expertise in? You have identified me as a communist, called other conservatives, liars and are willing to argue endlessly with ANY point lacking a liberal label. Enough already…go to bed and dream about lollipops and unicorns…tomorrow is another day.

  • sasquatch08

    @ patrick 1.23

    I’m not going to get further into this than saying this: I find the $100K for med school number suspect. I had a bit over $100,000 in debt after 4 years of undergraduate school. Granted I went to a private University, but the difference between myself and friends who attended public schools was at most $12,000 per year and usually around $8000 my freshman year. The difference grew after that as tuition at my school rose at a slightly higher rate that public schools. But for the people 4 years ahead of me that means that after the rise was about $8000 on average, let’s call it $10K to be generous.
    .
    That’s still only a difference of $40k, so those kids if they went to school on loans like I did were still $60,000 in debt, plus interest with the hope of getting a job that might pay $38,000 a year or piling on more debt to get a higher degree.
    .
    Did any of us complain about this? No, you have to spend money to make it (unless your the government and print it) my sole point here is that I don’t believe that after four years of college, medical school and a residency you will find an average of a mere $100,000 in debt racked up.

  • sasquatch08

    Patrick, 2.1. I hate to single you out again.
    .
    But if you’re old enough to understand the Soviet Union, what caused it to fail and maybe just maybe remember the crimes against humanity it caused in pursuit of the “perfect government”, how can you sit here and basically defend stateist notions?
    .
    Forgive me, but I was under the impression (er, historical fact) that the greatest and longest lived experiment with far left, stateist (i.e socialist/communist ideas, those that suppose the government is far better at deciding things than individuals) failed and failed miserably in 1991 after having murdered at least 30 million of its own citizens and 7 million Ukrainians in pursuit of perfection (We can ignore Mao doing basically the same thing and killing 70 million of his citizens, though that was ground up communism rather than top down).
    .
    Considering what you know, how could you possibly be advancing the argument that big government is a good idea? Have you never heard of (in mondern U.S. terms) what that’s done to California, New York, New Jersey? Every time [what we here in the U.S. term] liberal ideas have been follow they fail in such ways that are staggering. New York is how far in the red? Almost $12 Billion, $8 Billion for NJ, and $511 Billion for California?.
    .
    Democrats seem to love unions. But unions don’t love you back. Look at California for example; they say they need to cut expenditures and openly admit that when they’ve tried to raise taxes they’ve chased out California citizens to other states. When it comes to pension plans the unions say they don’t need a cut in benefits for future workers (note this plan would honor the current contracts 100%) or a cut in pay for new union members but what the state really, really needs is $40 billion in new taxes, and to remove all tax credits from the state tax system. These are the same damn people that are saying “someone has to give something up so that others can have some” but are TOTALLY unwilling to do it themselves.
    .
    I am not saying that unions are bad, or even that the government helping people who are down on their luck is bad. But when we give those groups more than we can afford at the state or national level it hurts everyone including those we are trying to help. People are somewhat greedy by nature (it’s not just the fat cats on Wall Street or in Washington) and these people will demand more free stuff. Look at the people already calling hospitals and insurance providers demanding their “free Obamacare”.
    .
    When the state or federal government overextends its self and people still ask for more they aren’t biting the hand that feeds them, they’ll killing the one that provides their food. Just ask the baggage handlers that used to work for Braniff, UAL or Northwest.

  • sasquatch08

    “But the media is obsessed with the impact of HCR on the deficit. The deficit!”
    .
    That thing out there that adds money every year to a debt we seem to have no interest in paying off and will bankrupt us and destroy the United States in international terms within the foreseeable future? The deficit that adds to the debt that insures those 30 million Americans will end up back at square 1 (no pun intended) when we run out of money? That deficit? Surely there’s no reason to be worried, we can always print more money to accelerate that problem!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “So now I am a communist, patrick?”
    .
    I was just giving you a taste of your own medicine.
    .
    If you bill a private insurance company which is a part of the patient’s compensation from his job (many drunken idiots do find a way of being sober enough during work hours to hold down a job – I have no idea about this man, of course, nor how he got attacked, apparently, by a historian since I have never seen an ice pick in my life) is pure capitalism.
    .
    Having the government pay is less pure capitalism.
    .
    Clearly nobody chooses to end up in situations where they will get stabbed in the chest intentionally or knowingly even if they had insurance coverage which paid them a bonus for getting stabbed and, don’t forget, that there is, other than self defense, absolutely no justification for a person stabbing you in the chest.
    .
    When we say anything about the government, rather than private businesses, paying for anything you call us communists. So, you are advocating a pre-HCR where the government pays for stab wounds, then you, must be a communist by your own right wing description.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Wow, not only is patrick an expert in medicine, but he now professes to be an expert on military matters. Lets see, that list includes economics, politics, history, accounting and selling real estate.( do you clean windows, too?) Is there ANYTHING, patrick, you lack expertise in?”
    .
    1) My knowledge is medicine is very, very basic. I can put a bandaid on a small cut. However, I had seen sections of economics textbooks and news articles written by people who got their PhD in health care economics who spent twenty years studying the numbers about medicine. I know that these people exist and I know what their conclusions are.
    .
    2) My knowledge of History is from AP high school history and an interest of my own, not expert level, just above average. So many historical claims of the far right are so historically illiterate that many fourteen year olds would know that it is false.
    .
    3) I took a couple of political science classes and went on to double major, instead, in international relations. So, I know the definitions of ideologies, which can, also, be found fairly easily online among many other places.
    .
    4) I know nothing about accounting other than the fact that if boredom were lethal, I would be dead within a few hours of studying accounting.
    .
    5) My job is mostly on office space leasing and requires eighth grade math and being socially bold (as they say “chutzpa”). CEOs of, often, very small businesses tell me in very brief terms their concerns about their business and why they are or are not expanding on a daily basis. (The term CEO is used in companies as few as five people.)
    .
    6) I was highly specific in what I said about the military. During the very late 1980s until the year after the fall of the Soviet Union, Generals, Admirals, DoD officials, CIA officials and so on were being interviewed by places like Janes Defense weekly talking about how little they would need and how, different the military would be and so on as the the Soviet Union falls.
    .
    Speculation about a peace dividend has been around for twenty years now. I never said I knew the details, but, if I ever wanted to, as much as you could, I could find out by reading about it.
    .
    7) No, I will not wash your windows.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    First, the largest difference between the Soviet Union and the United States was Democracy. The Soviets had a few hundred people in each republic coming up with all of the ideas without the consent of the governed. The US has three hundred million people coming up with the ideas and choosing who we put in office and subject them every two to six years to termination via election.
    .
    Second, the Soviet experiment did not believe the existence of private goods at all for anything. If you wanted anchovy on your pizza, you needed to try to convince the politburo to change policy so that you could get anchovy pizza at your corner restaurant. This is 0% similar to anything that Democrats have done.
    .
    Third, living in New York State, I have heard the raging debates, but, cuts are few and far between unlike Arizona. Also, I did hear that California needs only a 50% majority to vote on spending but a two thirds majority to raise taxes to pay for it. That is a deadly combination bound to destroy any government lead by Republicans or Democrats.
    .
    Fourth The US started out without police departments. That failed. So, we went to bigger government for local and, eventually even state and federal police departments. We went from having Pinkerton detectives as military police. By World War II that failed and we created military police. Before the Civil War, fire departments were private. That failed. We then went on to have government controlled fire departments.
    .
    Private and unregulated or semi-regulated health care has failed and we are now, in our tradition, discovering one hundred twenty seven years after Germany did that this is a public good.
    .
    Fifth, unions are democratic organizations (small d, especially considering that police unions almost always prefer Republicans) which barter a higher pay for dramatically lower turnover and, with it, dramatically increased per worker efficiency.
    .
    Unions play a fifty percent role in the decisions to cut the workforce or to cut pay and benefits during downturns. Management plays the other fifty percent.
    .
    Management controls 100% of other decisions such as raw materials used, energy used, land use, management pay, executive bonuses, CEO pay, borrowing money and, in publicly owned businesses, dividend payments.
    .
    The worst nightmare of union leaders and of management from foremen to CEO is the same thing: a business failure.
    .
    So, unions fight as hard as they can to keep the business open as does management while unions have only one part of one expense that they have a say over. Unions do not cause business failure often. A vast majority of the time executive decisions could have prevented such failures. Unions loose every time a business gets shut down.
    .
    To the best of my knowledge, failures of unionized companies of comparable size and in the same industry is no higher than their counterpart.
    .
    (Unions are almost exclusively in large businesses, so, if you included small businesses, which fail much more easily, you would have the false number that union businesses fail much, much less often- which is misleading).
    .
    Comparing Democrats regulating health care to the Soviet Union where the government owned the push carts selling food in the parks is like comparing a glass of water to the Atlantic Ocean. It is misleading to put them in the same sentence.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “You have identified me as a communist…”
    .
    I was using the Tea Party definition of “Communist” which is the same as their definition of “Socialist” and “Nazis” or “Unconstitutional”: advocating or supporting any policy which involves the government paying money or providing regulations for which I, personally do not agree with.
    .
    If it is government spending for something a person agrees with, then it is called “The American Way”.
    .
    If it is okay to toss around the words socialist, communist, Nazi and unconstitutional based upon what one likes or dislikes, I forgot, you are not only a communist, but you are also a socialist, unconstitutional Nazi, too.
    .
    Why not?
    .
    Throwing around words with no meaning to them is fine for you to do to us, why not randomly throw them back at you?
    .
    If your argument was, “I disagree with HCR” without “unconstitutional”, “socialist”, “big government”, “government takeover”, etc, etc, then it would out of line to call you an unconstitutional Nazi, Socialist Communist.

  • earljr1

    sasquatch, you are correct. The figure is closer to jbaustian’s estimate of 300k. patrick claims to know everything, but once again, his figures are way off. patrick, your feeble attempts at humor are way off, too. Ask any ER doctor how often patients are hauled in off the streets with icepick puncture wounds. This appears to be the weapon of choice on the streets. It punctures easily, does not stick in bone and and causes massive internal injuries. It leaves a small hole, but easily penetrates lung and heart tissue. If you are not treated swiftly, you die a rather painful death. And by the way, your ear infection treatment in the ER for $35 was a bargain basement price. The taxpayer ended up picking up the rest of your tab.

  • hms09ky

    Reply to #1.6 Mgatronrises

    You claim the new bill “eliminates unnecessary subsidies to insurance companies,”

    Perhaps you forgot the subsidies that will be provided to low-income families to PURCHASE policies from the private for-profit insurers? Taxpayer money will provide those subsidies to buy skimpy coverage. The probable actuarial rate will be 70 percent–so families will have to absorbn 30 percent of costs (deductibles, co-pays, etc). The annual cap could still leave a family with an unmanageable debt burden.

    Go to UC-Berkeley labor center to use a calculator to predict family costs.
    http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/healthpolicy/index.shtml#calculator

    Oh, and I do know that Medicare Advantage plans may lose some subsidies. Rightly so–they were cherrypicking the active healthier Silver Sneakers crowd anyway.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The average tuition for the first year is $25,000. Additionally, there are fees for books, housing, meals, student fees, traveling, etc. Public Schools are about $10,000 if you’re an in state student. Out of state students can expect to pay well over $22,000 for a public medical school. ”
    .
    So, $100,000 to $150,000 unless you want to go to a private university.
    .
    http://gradschool.about.com/od/medicalschool/f/MedSchoolCost.htm
    .
    My relative went to college instate and his father let him use his car for four years.
    .
    Once again, even if my number was low, your number was much further off and exaggerated, just like everything else from you.
    .
    I couldn’t find anything online to refute nor substantiate the issue of Ice picks being common murder weapons.
    .
    Still how will Obama, the Tea Party or anybody else change drunks into sober people or make people armed with something stab somebody else more prone or less prone to stabbing somebody?
    .
    Yes, Earl, you are on the gritty front lines and I am in a great neighborhood of NYC and just lucky that I managed negotiate to get Bronx rent in one of the best parts of Queens (but lease out office space in Manhattan).

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “And by the way, your ear infection treatment in the ER for $35 was a bargain basement price. The taxpayer ended up picking up the rest of your tab.”
    .
    First, this was that Massachusetts General Hospital where it was a side clinic, not an ER doctor. So, by taking the train that far I minimalized costs everybody.
    .
    Second, until I showed them a pay stub, the bill was for over $100. Since it was eight years ago, I forgot how much.
    .
    Yes, at $25,000 per year I got about $65 subsidy from the government. That brings me to a total for medical subsidies with about four visits in fifteen years to about $260.
    .
    My taxes have always been more than ten to twenty times that much.

  • newfreedomblog

    “Wow.. 296 TRILLION people? Tax collection from even 50% of that number should wipe out the budget deficit and the national debt.
    .
    Rusty Blog, learn to COUNT first !”

    .
    Just for the record. It is YOU my dear and mentally challenged liberal friend, maverick2k that are totally and unequivocally WRONG.
    .
    If you read what you quoted me, I said MILLION, not TRILLION as you claim.
    .
    Confuscious once said; “it’s better to remain silent than to speak out (write) as a fool”.

    Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/04/23/another-critical-health-reform-report/?replytocom=158137#respond#ixzz0m1zSKa6z

  • earljr1

    Has your liberal equilibrium been tilted, patrick? Thou dost protest too much. Having attended medical school, I am perhaps more cognizant of the cost than you are. You fail to factor in those years of internship and residency(up to six years), when we are paid minimum salaries because this is considered part of our education. To keep our heads above water, we continue the borrowing process (especially those of us with families to support) You have NO idea of the cost and sacrifice we make to pursue our dream, but good ole patrick, as usual, has ALL the answers! You are really beginning to irritate me now, so I am going to end this pointless dialogue…..there is nothing to be gained by arguing with a fence post.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    If you believed that concept of Confucius, rusty, this is what you would be like to have around:
    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Has your liberal equilibrium been tilted, patrick?”
    .
    My relative is a resident and lives on what he makes.
    .
    If you were unable to live within your means, then that is not supposed to anybody else’s problem.
    .
    Earl, you need to take personal responsibility and don’t blame medical school on why you couldn’t live within your means.
    .
    Damn, you right wingers say that fall down drunks should buy their own health insurance and you were a spendthrift during your residency and want to blame on somebody else.
    .
    Sorry, that would be your own problem, Earl.

  • 3xfire3

    Earljr1,
    .
    Arguing with a fence post would be more productive than arguing with Patric.
    .
    He is so irrational and closed minded that he can not accept even the most basic truths. He will always demonize the right and glorify the Left. He is a pure idealogue.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    3X,
    .
    “He is so irrational and closed minded that he can not accept even the most basic truths. He will always demonize the right and glorify the Left. He is a pure idealogue.”
    .
    If you notice, the president who (although with a Republican congress) I hold most responsible for not regulating derivatives and repealing the Glass-Steagall Act was Clinton, a Democrat.
    .
    I said before that he, not Bush, was most responsible for this situation.
    .
    You just wish to say that I am an idiolog since you have failed miserably at finding any logical arguments to contradict what I have said.
    .
    If you’ll call Clinton a conservative, then, I guess you could call yourself right. If not, then you have no idea what you are talking about.

  • erapanow

    296,000,000 MILLION =
    296 million million =
    296 trillion

    maverick’s all over that one.

    pay attention, people.
    (and by “people” i mean, newfreedomblog.)

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