Sampling the Tea

As Tea Party groups mark Tax Day by staging protests across the U.S., it’s worth taking a look at yesterday’s New York Times/CBS News poll, which paints a vivid picture of the movement. Journalists — and many others who aren’t among the 18% of Americans who consider themselves Tea Party backers, according to the poll — have had a hard time coming to grips with the movement’s meaning, in part because its supporters are drawn to it for so many different reasons. Yes, there are obvious threads binding the group — contempt for the Obama Administration’s policies, disgust with Congress, concerns about an intrusive federal government and spiraling national debt, and so on. But the inventory of grievances is so long and varied that spending time with Tea Party members would likely challenge any working hypotheses you’ve constructed about the group.

For example, a series of stories have pointed to the decision to eschew divisive social issues and focus instead on economic policy as one reason it has appealed to so many people. This is likely true, and yet a significant percentage of the Tea Partyers I’ve spoken with say social issues like abortion and gay marriage are high on their agenda. Other pieces have speculated that the Tea Party has been the beneficiary of economic insecurity and the high U.S. unemployment rate, since its jobless activists have more time for grassroots organizing. But the latest Times/CBS poll reveals the movement’s membership is wealthier and better-educated than average. This is a group resistant to classification, particularly since its members can’t agree on much beyond a few basic tenets: Washington is broken, freedom is a good thing, the Constitution is a brilliant document, capitalism beats socialism, limited government, etc. These are crib-safe political positions, and beyond that things get thornier. As if on cue, the Times/CBS poll even detonates the notion that Tea Party groups are universally for lower taxes–according to the survey, 52% of Tea Partyers regard the income tax they will have to pay this year as “fair.”

I spent yesterday at a Tea Party rally in Boston, and part of today at Tea Party events back in Washington. Here in DC I sat in, briefly, on a seminar for aspiring (and actual) organizers put on by FreedomWorks, the Dick Armey-chaired conservative organization, and then strolled across the street to Freedom Plaza, where crowds massed for a Tax Day rally. It was a loud, lively, typically eclectic shindig, populated by fair taxers, libertarians, free-marketeers, grandparents fretting over debt levels and lots of folks looking forward to throwing the bums out in November. There were signs decrying socialism, signs (and speeches) decrying racism, crude and nasty signs, anti-tax signs, anti-government signs, signs targeting specific Democrats and signs with grammar that suggested its bearer was lucky to pass third grade. Yesterday I spotted a sign that simply read: “I Like Ham.” I saw placards depicting Obama with the Joker’s makeup and Hitler’s toothbrush mustache, and I met friendly people who said they thought the President was a decent person pursuing misguided policies. To distill this stew of discontent into a bumper sticker just ain’t easy.

Talking to local Tea Party leaders and the organizations assisting them, it’s clear that if these groups are to maximize their impact on the midterm elections, they will need to transition away from protests and into the implementation process. That’s why the gathering taking place across the street at the FreedomWorks summit–where activists were learning how to build their membership with tools like social networking and media outreach–is far more crucial to the movement’s future than the headlines it will garner through its Tax Day protests.

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  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    elections, they will need to transition away from protests and into the implementation process.

    I’d feel a lot better about that if I thought there were any evidence that the Tea partiers had the most basic understanding of what it is they’re protesting.

    As the conflict between Corker and McConnell indicates, there are Republicans who are grounded in reality. There are legitimate concerns about Government overspending. But by embracing the most extreme elements of their own party, the Republicans are taking themselves out of the adult conversation. And if by some chance they DO succeed in regaining power, we can be assured that they are going to double down on all of the worst aspects of their platform, the very one that brought the economy to it’s knees in the first place.

  • FlownOver

    In less circumspect circles (say, your average Tea Party hydrophobia-fest) the term “…and so on” means “He’s black.”

  • deconstructiva

    Alex, I agree. If the TP wants to be a real party or movement and not just FOX food, they need a coherent platform. Agree (by means necessary) on a few issues and solutions, then stick to them. That includes you, Sarah. Hell, they could just run on one issue alone – say tax reform – like Perot did in ’92 with The Deficit™. But cut out the violence and racist crap already (rw’ers, don’t bother foaming at the mouth here. 53 and other commenters have shown the TP’s worst examples).
    .
    And Alex, props on your home page photo for NOT properly coiffuring your hair ala Romney (or Scherer).

  • Ivy_B

    Did Dick Armey mention to the folks gathered at the Freedom Works training that he wants to eliminate Social Security completely?

    I also find it amusing that the tea party gathering in Florida near the Kennedy Space Center was protesting proposed cut backs in spending on the space program.

  • 53_3

    Alex!
    .
    You esterundimate the support the Tea Party has!
    .
    I heard that it was actually 28%.
    .
    That is all.

  • Alex Vallas

    First, I seriously doubt that 18% of the American public support the Tea Party. I doubt if 18% even know enough about the party to support it. It is pathetic that Sarah Palin who is far from bright can draw so much attention. She keeps pounding on what is right for America. Well, did she forget her hubby, who was actually co-governor with the ability to fire, hire and discipline and was also a member of the AIP – Alaska Independence Party – that wanted to secede from the US? She welcomed the group with open arms She joins the ranks of such repulsive figures as Limbaugh, Beck, Coulter, The Obnoxous Duo — the lying Cheneys, Carl Rove, and some Fox commentators whom I hear about but chose not to contaminate myself my listening to their vitrol.
    As an aside, could you imagine the impact of Michelle suggested that Hawaii secede from the union?
    The American public, egged on by MBC (McConnell, Boehner and Cantor) have developed into an ugly polarized society where hatred is consuming and racism is rising.
    Even Weathervane McCain has become an obnoxious senator. How sad that the country has taken this direction.
    In the final analysis it is America that loses.

  • Alex Vallas

    Couple of typos that I should have caught before posting.

  • gysgt213

    Early yesterday morning, Valerie and Rob Shirk corralled their 10 home-schooled children into their van for the 2 1/2-hour drive from their home in Connecticut to Boston, arriving just in time to hear Sarah Palin denounce government-run health care at the tea party movement rally on Boston Common.
    .
    They thought it would be a learning opportunity for their children, who range in age from 9 months to 15 years old and who held up signs criticizing the government for defying the “will of the people.’’
    .
    “The problem in this country is that too many people are looking for handouts,’’ said Valerie Shirk, 43, of Prospect, Conn. “I agree with the signs that say, ‘Share my father’s work ethic — not his paycheck.’ We have to do something about the whole welfare mentality in this country.’’
    .
    For the Shirks, it was a day for their children to seek inspiration from Palin and the other speakers, who questioned Obama’s patriotism and at least one of whom referred to him repeatedly as Barack Hussein.

    The couple, who rely on Medicaid for their health care, were also upset about the nation’s new health reforms.
    .
    When asked why her family used state-subsidized health care when she criticized people who take handouts, Valerie Shirk said she did not want to stop having children, and that her husband’s income was not enough to cover the family with private insurance.
    .
    “I know there’s a dichotomy because of what we get from the state,’’ she said. “But I just look at each of my children as a blessing.’’
    .

    Kat Malone, from Charlestown, one of the few nonwhite supporters of the movement at the rally, held a sign that read, “Look, a Black Tea Partier!’’
    .
    “The media has said there aren’t any nonwhites in the Tea Party,’’ the 22-year-old woman said. “As you can see, that’s not true.’’
    .
    “This movement stands for smaller government, reduced taxation, and support for our Constitution, which I feel has been trampled on by the Democrats, and George W. Bush,’’ said McQueen, who now receives health insurance through COBRA.
    .
    He was not sure how much longer he would be able to afford his insurance. “But I won’t take a handout,’’ he said. “I’ll just have to make some money.’’
    .
    http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/04/15/tea_party_rally_generates_plenty_of_criticism_opposing_views/?page=2

  • 53_3

    I just saw a rather large flight of yellow and black striped pigs fly from NE to SW today at about 3,000 feet. I think maybe 130 to 150 four V’s plus a few stragglers.
    .
    The cackling was deafening…

  • Alex Altman

    Hey FlownOver: The Times/CBS poll has some interesting data on racial attitudes — for example, 52% of Tea Party members surveyed said “too much has been made of black problems,” vs. 28% of all respondents. And 25% said the Administration’s policies favored blacks over whites, vs. 11% overall. I found those figures striking, since people at the rallies have taken pains to repudiate characterizations of the movement as racially motivated.

  • grape_crush

    Crowd estimates in Boston were in the 5-6K range, about half of what organizers expected…and not everyone there was from Massachusetts or even a teabagger.

    In contrast, 10,000 rallied in the same location against the Iraq War in 2007.

    Nate Silver has some numbers for comparison, too.

    Given the low turnout, why do these events garner so much coverage? Alex?

  • shepherdwong

    “Journalists — and many others who aren’t among the 18% of Americans who consider themselves Tea Party backers, according to the poll — have had a hard time coming to grips with the movement’s meaning, in part because its supporters are drawn to it for so many different reasons.”
    .
    It may not be as difficult as you think. Perhaps a non-journalist who’s been analyzing them for quite some time can help you out:

    These people are nothing new. They have different iterations, but when you get right down to it they are, quite simply, the far right. They hate poor people (especially blacks) and they hate government that helps poor people (especially blacks.) They are deluded about taxes and spending and are paranoid about the government being infiltrated by “the other.” They believe they are the only “true” Americans and alternate between insisting that their “traditional values” are best represented by the Bible or the Constitution, both of which they believe they are ordained by God to properly interpret. And they do not really believe in democracy which is really why they hate the government.

    http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/teabag-nation.html

  • grape_crush
  • shepherdwong

    And Mr. Perlstein:

    As the Times’ new poll numbers amply confirm — especially the ones establishing that the Tea Partiers are overwhelming Republican or right-of-Republican — they are the same angry, ill-informed, overwhelmingly white, crypto-corporate paranoiacs that accompany every ascendancy of liberalism within U.S. government.
    .
    “When was the last time you saw such a spontaneous eruption of conservative grassroots anger, coast to coast?” asked the professional conservative L. Brent Bozell III recently. The answer, of course, is: in 1993. And 1977. And 1961. And many more.

    http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/what-tea-party-backers-want/?hp

  • 53_3

    Alex:
    .
    Of course there are some in the Tea Party movement that are not racially motivated, I’m sure.
    .
    However, you overlook the fact, I think, that there are a large number of supporters, prominent and otherwise, who have said, posted, or communicated in some other way derogatory and even racially motivated commentary.
    .
    It is not the fault of those watching the movements’ progress, or lack thereof. I’m sure that there are those in the movement that want to erase those perceptions, but the truth is, until they get their peers to STFU they have a snowball’s chance in hell of accomplishing it.
    .
    I might point out to you that the Black Community is the least, without exception in every poll to support the Tea Party movement.
    .
    There is a message in that bottle, Alex, for both the Tea Party and the GOP!

  • 53_3

    …least [likely] without exception…
    .
    Sorry abt that oversight.

  • 53_3

    Well, at least we know for certain that Tea Party activists represent a minimum of 0.125% of the voting population of the United States.
    .
    That is excluding the 10 kids that the lady gysgt213 mentioned above, of course…

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    Thanks for the Perlstein Shep. Did you see that awesome speech he recently gave at Vanderbilt?

  • grape_crush

    The answer, of course, is: in 1993. And 1977. And 1961.

    First years for Clinton, Carter, and Kennedy…Odd how that works out, isn’t it?

  • Ivy_B
  • shepherdwong

    “Did you see that awesome speech he recently gave at Vanderbilt?”
    .
    I did. If only we could get every gasbag inside the Beltway to watch it until they get it.

  • http://miermj.wordpress.com miermj

    “The American public, egged on by MBC (McConnell, Boehner and Cantor) have developed into an ugly polarized society where hatred is consuming and racism is rising.”

    Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/04/15/sampling-the-tea/?replytocom=155879#respond#ixzz0lD7wMH5i

    Just thought I would point this out.

    First, I seriously doubt that 18% of the American public support the Tea Party. I doubt if 18% even know enough about the party to support it. It is pathetic that Sarah Palin who is far from bright can draw so much attention. She keeps pounding on what is right for America. Well, did she forget her hubby, who was actually co-governor with the ability to fire, hire and discipline and was also a member of the AIP – Alaska Independence Party – that wanted to secede from the US? She welcomed the group with open arms She joins the ranks of such repulsive figures as Limbaugh, Beck, Coulter, The Obnoxous Duo — the lying Cheneys, Carl Rove, and some Fox commentators whom I hear about but chose not to contaminate myself my listening to their vitrol.

    Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/04/15/sampling-the-tea/?replytocom=155879#respond#ixzz0lD8NTjM8

    Interesting how some can accuse a movement for something and have all this “hate” in one paragraph. Calling people repulsive, far from bright & liers IS hate.

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    “If only we could get every gasbag inside the Beltway to watch it until they get it.”
    .
    Sadly, I don’t think it would help. I think the villagers know these narratives but embracing them is another story. It’s either not their real agenda or if it is they feel it’s not in their interests to champion such a message, that it’ll jeapordize their own standing etc.
    .
    A start IMO would be if all democratic voters would view it.

  • http://www.simonvinkenoog.nl/beeld/Yogi%20-%20Annelies%20Rigter.jpg yogi

    I tired to join a tea party website once, they kicked me out because I had a Teddy Roosevelt avatar picture.

  • http://www.simonvinkenoog.nl/beeld/Yogi%20-%20Annelies%20Rigter.jpg yogi

    which is funny because I think Heaven’s Gate kicked me out for the same reason. In no way am I saying those two are related, I just want to join a cult.

  • crhoads62

    I can almost hear the fear coming from you liberals. as you socialist ah,libs flaunt your so called education which was nothing more then a indoctrination in socialism. studying marxism and lenin and stalin over looking their murderous regimes. lets not forget mae and che. it is laughable that you compare bush to hitler and beck to communist couglin. you have a big problem when trying to dismiss this movement to get this country back to the right. you are far out numbered. obama is going to go down as the most dangerous enemy to capitalism and freedom ever. social security needs to be ended. it does not work. the dept. of education needs abolished as does the irs, the dept. of energy. federal reserve needs abolished. aclu ended. unions ened. tenure abolished. all land claimed by the federal government out side of dc returned to the states. figure out what country obama is a citizen of and send him back.

  • shepherdwong

    Of course. There are some places that our paid truth-tellers just won’t go:

    What we have here, in other words, is the bedrock, indestructible, and apparently timeless conviction of white conservatives that the federal income tax is a device for stealing their hard-earned (or not) dollars and giving them to crack whores and their pimps (or ACORN, or all three) so that they can go out and buy shiny new Cadillacs and Kentucky fried chicken…
    .
    –Billmon

    http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/4/14/857379/-New-York-Times:-Race-Means-Class

  • jackhammer69

    Alex said:
    “I might point out to you that the Black Community is the least, without exception in every poll to support the Tea Party movement”

    Yeah… and I might point out that over 90% of the “Black Community” that votes in every election votes for Democrats. So it is no wonder that the “Black Community” doesn’t support the Tea Party Movement.

    You dimwit.

    Why are people on the left so racist?

  • hippooath

    Nothing scares liberals more then rambling posts with mixed up talking points.

  • jackhammer69

    “I might point out to you that the Black Community is the least, without exception in every poll to support the Tea Party movement”

    Yeah… and I might point out that over 90% of the “Black Community” that votes in every election votes for Democrats. So it is no wonder that the “Black Community” doesn’t support the Tea Party Movement.

  • jbaustian

    So many Swamplanders will ignore the NYT/CBS poll because they do not like the results:
    1) Tea partiers are better educated than the general public, and are more likely to either be working or retired.
    .
    2) Only 20% of the general public describe themselves as liberal or very liberal.
    .
    3) Tea partiers are not racists — they just favor a color-blind government.
    .
    4) 81% of Tea partiers identify themselves as middle-class, working-class, or poor. Among the general public, it’s 87%. I do not know if that is a statistically significant difference.
    .
    5) By a 46% to 40% margin, the general public is more likely to support the creation of a 3rd party.
    .
    6) 52% of the general public thinks Obama is moving the country toward socialism.
    .
    So, will you continue to mischaracterize the Tea partiers? Or accept that they are mostly like the general public except for being better educated and better informed?

  • kbanginmotown

    The fact that the first “Tea-Party Tax Day” protests were held one year ago today – less than 3 months after President Obama was inaugurated – belie the fact that this is the “Anti-Obama” or “Anti-Democrat” party.
    .
    Nothing more, nothing less.
    .
    Even a reported from “Der Spiegel” needed less than a week at the Tea Party Convention earlier this year to understand what was *really* going on.
    .
    Die Anti-Obama-Partei
    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,676163,00.html
    .
    Occam’s Razor
    Leaves no doubt
    Saying No’s what
    It’s about
    Burma Shave.

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    Funny you mention DS K-Bang. I just read (in English) this great piece:
    .
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,688782,00.html
    .
    “Beck [...] has taken a piece of chalk and drawn two paths of Western civilization on the blackboard, the American path and the European path. The word ‘God’ is written on the American side, and the words ‘Marx, Stalin, Hitler, Nietzsche’ on the European side. These are the two alternatives America faces today, he says. ‘And I ask you, which road should America take?’”

  • http://clarkincnet.wordpress.com clarkincnet

    The Tea Party movement rocks. It’s amazing that regular Americans are becoming involved in the political process in order to fix the mess in Washington. I just hope we are able to stop Obama before he completely bankrupts the country.

    Go Palin!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Let’s go Mets! Let’s Go Mets!….
    .
    Oh, this random, mindless cheering isn’t for a sports team, but for a woman who makes millions of dollars lying to people while too unpopular in her home state to be elected dog catcher.
    .
    It “rocks”?
    .
    So, you’re saying that you are having fun as if it is party or sports rally?
    .
    Is Sarah Palin a switch hitter, or that just your fantasy about her?
    .
    Is it like a party? Are you swing dancing with grandma talking about the 1920s?
    .
    You know, some of us actually want a government that works and based upon sound reasoning to figure out how to best provide health care and other government services to the public.
    .
    If you want to swing dance with Grandma, well, you can help yourself as far as I am concerned.

  • http://muezzathecat.wordpress.com muezzathecat

    TPers….You are going to get yourselves in trouble with the law if you start using the Leftist tactics, Alinsky was willing to face hard prison time for his beliefs. The old school protesters didn’t care if they got locked up by the police for what they were doing, they expected it. The Leftists, like Code Pink, Greenpeace, ect are willing to give up their own freedom, in order to make a point…. Also we never took children into the protest zone. The only “Kids” that were involved were US. “Civil Disobedience isn’t all it’s Cracked up to be, a lot of protesters over the years have LOST their voting privileges fighting their causes, as well as getting seriously injured. Do we remember Kent State? How many of you are really willing to go down that road?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Are you that rambling homeless guy at Penn Station?
    .
    You sound like him, Crhoads.

  • shepherdwong

    The old leftists were trying to stop a pointless, monstrous war and racial and gender discrimination. These people are threatening treason for three percentage points on the marginal tax rate paid on income above a quarter million dollars.

  • allthingsinaname

    18% supports is all we need to know. Who Cares?

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    From an old Gallup Poll:
    .
    As far as you know, what specific historical event is celebrated on July 4th?
    .
    Signing of the Declaration of Independence/day it was signed 55%
    Independence Day 32
    Birth of United States 1
    Other 6
    No opinion 6
    .
    As far as you know, from what country did America gain its independence following the Revolutionary War?
    .
    England/Great Britain/United Kingdom 76%
    France 2
    Other 3
    No opinion 19
    .
    As far as you know, does the earth revolve around the sun, or does the sun revolve around the earth?
    .
    Earth revolves around the sun 79%
    Sun revolves around the earth 18
    No opinion 3

  • Alex Vallas

    Interesting how some can accuse a movement for something and have all this “hate” in one paragraph. Calling people repulsive, far from bright & liers IS hate.
    miermj
    April 15, 2010
    at 6:40 pm

    Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/04/15/sampling-the-tea/?replytocom=155879#respond#ixzz0lFwT4M73
    ———————————–
    Not when they promote racism and hatred for the President and accuse him of trying to convert the country to socialism, calling him a rag head, etc… These people are destructive forces. You are right, I hate anyone to tries to destroy our democracy with vengence towards our leader and it confirms my point that these people promote hatred.

  • http://miermj.wordpress.com miermj

    Not when they promote racism and hatred for the President and accuse him of trying to convert the country to socialism, calling him a rag head, etc… These people are destructive forces. You are right, I hate anyone to tries to destroy our democracy with vengence towards our leader and it confirms my point that these people promote hatred.

    Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/04/15/sampling-the-tea/#ixzz0lG84JWwO

    So do what I say and not as I do? How hypocritical is that? How can you condem people for things you “accuse” them of if you do the same thing yourself?

    Who is promoting racism? The “tea party”, the parties or the media? Maybe all of them to push buttons?

    Is it hatred for the “President” or the way this administration is leading this country? More like europe (socialism)?

    Is this “debate” destroying our democracy? Isn’t that what democracy is?

    I got no question about the “rag head” comment because for 1. I never heard that said and 2. don’t know what that is. I know what a “toe head” is though, have several of them in my family.

  • 53_3

    jackhammer:
    .
    You figured out the easy part. You really deserve a pat on the back. I mean really!
    .
    But can you now that you’ve displayed your brilliant deductive powers, how about a little strong inductive logic?
    .
    Tell me why?
    .
    Hint, er, actually two hints:
    .
    1. You totally missed the point.
    2. It’s in the figurative “bottle” I mentioned above.
    .
    Oh, and FYI, you don’t know jack about the “Black Community”. That last vote was 97%

  • 53_3

    I like that about flaunting our intellect.
    .
    Stoopid Unite!…Onward and Upward!…Oooof!
    .
    I guess conservatives are not allowed to use their brains. Maybe that’s why FOX does so well…

  • 53_3

    Where is the racism, jackhammer69?
    .
    Seems to me that you popped a nut on this one, as I was discussing the why it is true, and how it impacts the perception that dogs the Tea Party movement.
    .
    Seems to me you are just throwing accusations totally out of the blue.
    .
    Go back to your day job. Don’t forget the earplugs…

  • 53_3

    Um, jackhammer69:
    .
    I just realized that you obviously have dyslexia or some other reading challange, too.
    .
    It wasn’t Alex that wrote that comment!
    .
    I did!
    .
    Try not to walk into walls. They hurt…

  • 53_3

    “Go Palin!”
    .
    I like it!

  • willy55

    Gee whiz Alex, and the posters below. Tea party purpose is to protest high taxes and runaway spending. The same thing Bernanke complained about this week. I’m afraid I can’t make it any more complicated than that. I’m somewhat “apolitical” and I can understand that. Not that hard is it?

  • 53_3

    Then explain why they keep putting out the crap they do. The only thing I’ve heard, in any consistent fashion, is the above mentioned commentary by the Tea Party’s peers and founders.
    .
    Now, maybe you turn a blind eye to that kind of commentary, but, regardless of the First Amendment issues, it is the primary reason your movement has been dogged by these perceptions.
    .
    I can actually appreciate a movement that wants smaller government and less taxes, these are always bones of contention in any paradigm shift, but you guys need to remind those idiots who keep spewing the crap that even if they do have a right to free speech, they are doing your movement more harm than good by antagonizing people who even, if they would just keep their views to themselves, might even join it.
    .
    The problem is, as I’ve mentioned many times upthread, and on other blogs, is that it is not the fault of the people who perceive your movement as it is perceived now. Get those idiots to STFU and I guarantee you that you will find a broader base!

  • earljr1

    You are absolutely right, jbaustian. The left wing’s continued obsession (addiction) to the tea party and Sarah Palin is fascinating to me. They are like Moth’s being drawn to the flame….knowing their demise is eminent, but too stupid to understand the reality.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Earl,
    when do expect Lisa Simpson to be the president?
    .
    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100111115135AARQqlG
    .

    .
    By your reasoning, we fear Lisa Simpson, too.

  • jackhammer69

    “Oh, and FYI, you don’t know jack about the “Black Community”. That last vote was 97%…”

    Yeah, and the last time I checked 97% was “over 90%”

    Check the election results for the past 50 years or so. Its always like that. It was actually a little higher than average this last time, for some reason……

    “But can you now that you’ve displayed your brilliant deductive powers, how about a little strong inductive logic?
    .
    Tell me why?
    .
    Hint, er, actually two hints:
    .
    1. You totally missed the point.
    2. It’s in the figurative “bottle” I mentioned above.”

    HOLY CRAP!

    You mean the reason that over 90% of the “Black Community” votes for Democrats is my fault???? If only I hadn’t missed the point, they would vote Republican??? That is astounding! I had no idea I was so important!

    BTW, talking about black people and alluding to metaphorical “bottles” sounds a little racist to me. Maybe you should check yourself for racist tendencies.

    Hey, just for a laugh, why don’t you tell us all why you think that the overwhelming majority of African American voters vote for democrats? I’d love to learn from your wisdom.

    ps. Please try to use proper punctuation. It will help me to understand your remarks. Statement/questions like, “But can you now that you’ve displayed your brilliant deductive powers, how about a little strong inductive logic?” really don’t do you any favors.

  • jackhammer69

    Only 2% to (possibly) 4% of the population is homosexual.
    .
    only 12.3% of the population is African American (according to the 2000 Census)
    .
    Only 12.8% is 65 years old or older.
    .

    Once again a liberal demonstrates racism and discrimination. (If you don’t care about 18% of the population, you probably don’t care about 12.3%, 12.8% or 2% either).
    .
    And they don’t even realize it….. [sigh]

  • sacredh

    A friend went to DC for the protest. I talked to his wife a little while ago. He lost his wallet. He says somebody picked his pocket. She says he left it on their table after paying for breakfast. He has a bad back and always takes his wallet out his pocket and lays it on the table. It had between 7-8 hundred in it along with his credit cards and driver’s license. She says they fought all the way home. How many teabags would $700 buy?

  • jackhammer69

    Yeah, sorry. N00B here and all that…. I learn fast though.

    .
    That’s why I hate the left. I used to be one, ’till I wised up. Most leftist arguments sound like the things I said when I was 16. By the time I was 21 I had learned that those ideas are stupid, naive and unrealistic.
    .
    Its too bad so many people never figure out that we live in the real world. The same one you read about in history books…. where cruel, unspeakable things happen to good people every day and there is no law you can pass that will protect us all.
    .
    More government. More laws. More regulations. More taxes. These are not the answer. These are, all too often, the source of the problems.
    .
    Why is California broke?
    .
    Why are some people more equal than others (Hate Crimes legislation?)
    .
    Why is the left fixated on race, racial issues, racial definitions, racial laws, racial invectives? (We can’t ever get to a post racial society if you keep bringing it up and making laws about it. Get over it, you racists.)
    .
    To take that a step further, why is it that whenever someone on the left wants to talk about the founding fathers, they have to point out that they owned slaves, and therefore were hippocrates and liars… Yeah we know. People all over the world and throughout history have enslaved each other. It’s only been just recently that people have stopped doing that openly… you know… this IS the real world….
    .
    Why did the rate of handgun related violent crimes in Chicago increase after they banned handguns?
    .
    Why do we have more entitlements than we can pay for?
    .
    Why is the top Tax rate 35% when most Americans think that the most anyone should be taxed is 20%?
    .
    Why are we taxed and fined at every turn? And why do most of those taxes fall disproportionately on the poor? (gasoline tax, sales tax, wheel tax, income tax, even FOOD TAX in some states)?
    .
    Why do leftist seem to want some kind of “managed economy?” A kind of “economic 3rd way?”
    .
    Why don’t they even realize what is wrong with that?
    .
    Because liberals are too stupid.
    .
    …WAKE UP AMERICA!
    .
    WAKE UP!

  • jackhammer69

    “3) Tea partiers are not racists — they just favor a color-blind government.”

    .
    Amen.

  • jackhammer69

    “The problem is, as I’ve mentioned many times upthread, and on other blogs, is that it is not the fault of the people who perceive your movement as it is perceived now. Get those idiots to STFU and I guarantee you that you will find a broader base!”

    No, the problem is people on the left like to make a lot out of the fringe, knowing that will make the whole group look bad.
    .
    What about the Republican fund raiser who got beat down yesterday? How much coverage is that getting on MSNBC Vs the “racial insults” that were allegedly hurled at the African American politicians during the recent Health Care vote?
    .
    I think I’ll check in with Rachel Madcow tonight and see if she bothers to mention it… too bad her ratings will go up a little.
    .
    The fact is, there are crazy people in every group. If you choose to ignore that and think that all TP’ers are just like the one freak in the corner, then, obviously, you are too stupid to join in the first place.
    .
    And BTW…
    .
    Its the stupidity of the left that makes me think you are stupid. If you could get the stupid people on your side to STFU, you might actually find a broader base!

  • jackhammer69

    “And they do not really believe in democracy which is really why they hate the government.”
    .
    yeah, yeah, yeah,…… except… um….. its not really a Democracy…
    .
    See?? Even the people that the Left looks to for quotes don’t know anything.
    .
    The United States is a Constitutional Republic.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Well, Jackhammer, I came from an overwhelmingly Republican town and, the more I had to make due without a college degree yet learned from the classes I took, the more liberal I became.
    .
    Apparently you have been a victim of crime and, I guess, from the way you describe things, it had something to do with a gay black man.
    .
    I, myself, have worked in high crime jobs but never been robbed and lived in high crime places.
    .
    We haven’t had a blog in the past two months or so since I have been around about gays. I,myself, am totally agnostic about gay marriage. If it doesn’t happen, it is not the end of the world as gay groups say and if it does it will not make me want to marry a dude.
    .
    As for the laws providing extra punishments for those who get and plan in advance to attack a gay person with a baseball bat, I can understand. I am opposed to people getting together to plot beating somebody with a baseball bat.
    .
    Maybe you are afraid that, if it becomes legal, you will marry a dude.

  • jackhammer69

    O. M. G.
    .
    OMG!!!!
    .
    You have a LOT to learn.

  • jackhammer69

    “Is Sarah Palin a switch hitter, or that just your fantasy about her?”
    .
    BAHHAHA!!!!!!!
    .
    That’s funny.
    .
    For the record, Para Salin is a pretty face, and the woman next door. And that’s about it. Otherwise she is a parrot for the Republican party. So she’s popular with some segments of the core right. That makes sense.
    .
    I’m not sure why she draws so much attention from the left, though……
    .
    “You know, some of us actually want a government that works and based upon sound reasoning to figure out how to best provide health care and other government services to the public.”
    .
    BAHAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
    .
    That’s even funnier!!!
    .
    Government based on sound reasoning???? Really??? I can’t belive it!!!! That’s what I want too!!!
    .
    Here, I’ll start:
    .
    Why does it cost a trillion dollars to insure 31 million Americans?
    .
    Hmmmmmmmmmm………..
    .
    I’m having trouble finding sound reason in that…..
    .
    1 trillion divided by 31 million (or just 10% of the population) = $32,258 per person…. and about half of those are young healthy people who won’t use nearly that much.
    .
    And how are we paying for it?
    .
    We are going to save 500 Billion by cutting waste, fraud and abuse?
    .
    Really?
    .
    Why don’t we just do that first and see how much money we save?
    .
    I think that sounds like sound reasoning.
    .
    And why do we have to pay for more health insurance?

    Why can’t we have medical savings accounts?
    .
    Why is the cost of health care so high? (note, that’s a rhetorical question. I’ve worked in the Health Care industry and so has most of my family. I know why its high.)
    .
    More taxes and laws and government agencies are not the answer. That just makes things worse. Obviously we all need protection from catastrophic illness and injury. And something needed to be done (and still needs to be done) about health insurance companies…. and ALL “insurance” companies, for that matter…. but that’s another topic.
    .
    The problem isn’t that people don’t have enough money to pay for basic health care, the problem is that the cost is too high. This “solution” doesn’t fix that.
    .
    Once again, in trying to make the world better, the left has made it worse.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Why does it cost a trillion dollars to insure 31 million Americans?”
    .
    Look up Rush Limbaugh’s butt to find that answer because that is where most of your numbers and ideas come from.
    .
    BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “You have a LOT to learn.”
    .
    From you?
    .
    BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  • jackhammer69

    Dude!!!!!
    .
    AGAIN you gernalize and assume!!!
    .
    We haven’t had a blog in the past two months or so since I have been around about gays. I,myself, am totally agnostic about gay marriage. If it doesn’t happen, it is not the end of the world as gay groups say and if it does it will not make me want to marry a dude.

    Why do you think I am anti gay marriage?? Did I say gays shouldn’t marry??
    .
    Why are you telling about your feelings about gay marriage?
    .
    If that’s the way this conversation is going, I’ll swing along….
    .
    Just like everyone else, Gays are entitled to equal protection under the law. Therefore, civil unions, with all the associated rights and privilages of true marriage should be granted, at the Federal level. “Marriage,” however, has, in some people’s minds, strong religious and “cultural” connotations. Therefore the determination of permitting true gay mariage (in a church, with a preacher, etc) should be left to the state governments to decide.
    .
    Personally, I’d probably vote for it, since I’m agnostic, libertarian, and a bit anti-social….. but that’s just me.
    .
    I think its hillarious that some shallow liberal just tried to bust me on that!!!
    .
    Try again!

    Only next time don’t assume.
    .
    Just to give you a clue, I said earlier in this thread that I worked in the health care industry. If you know anything about the gay community or the health care industry, you know there are a disporportionate number of homosexual people working in the health care field, comparred to the general population. I’m sure I’ve got more gay friends than you, more gay coworkers than you, and have been to more gay bars than you.
    .
    All of that being said, why do you feel the need to berate me as anti-gay, homophobic and even a closet homosexual? You do that based on your assumptions and generalizations that I am somehow just like the terrible republicans that ruined your childhood by making you work?
    .
    First of all:
    .
    Work is good for you.
    .
    AND…. your beligerant, hateful, words and behavior once again demonstrate my point in this thread.
    .
    LIBERALS ARE STUPID.
    .
    As for the laws providing extra punishments for those who get and plan in advance to attack a gay person with a baseball bat, I can understand. I am opposed to people getting together to plot beating somebody with a baseball bat.
    .
    Yeah, me too…. No matter what color they are or which hole they put it in.
    .
    I came from an overwhelmingly Republican town and, the more I had to make due without a college degree yet learned from the classes I took, the more liberal I became.

    .
    That’s terrible. I’m so sorry for you. Is there anything I can do to help?

  • crhoads62

    every time a republican says “this is not good for America” that drives obama to keep pushing his agenda further along because that is why he is doing what he is doing.

  • jackhammer69

    Apparently you have been a victim of crime and, I guess, from the way you describe things, it had something to do with a gay black man.
    .
    I, myself, have worked in high crime jobs but never been robbed and lived in high crime places

    .
    Yes, but did you ever encounter any gay black men?

  • jackhammer69

    Why does it cost a trillion dollars to insure 31 million Americans?”
    .
    Look up Rush Limbaugh’s butt to find that answer because that is where most of your numbers and ideas come from.
    .
    BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


    .
    Uhhhhhhhh
    .
    1 trillion in cost, 500 billion is “savings” and 31 million needing coverage are Obama’s numbers.
    .
    Rush limbaugh is a bigger douchebag than you.
    .
    I love how you shalllow, ignorant liberals keep projecting your hate onto me and trying to label me as something I’m not.
    .
    Try again???

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Yes, but did you ever encounter any gay black men?”
    .
    I worked in the same place as a gay black man.
    .
    Why?
    .
    I never had the dude’s phone number, so, if that’s what you want, I can’t help you.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Only 2% to (possibly) 4% of the population is homosexual.
    .
    only 12.3% of the population is African American (according to the 2000 Census)”
    .
    This is where I got the idea that you were babbling about black gay people.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Every time Obama says “this is good for America” Republicans lie, lie more about it pushing their agenda along because they oppose doing anything for America besides giving away tax cuts and slashing and burning government with hope that we didn’t really need anything besides the military industrial complex.
    .
    Last week when Obama said “have a good morning” to a Republican he got together the tea party to protest against the president telling them what to do.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Try again???”
    .
    You know, this time I will pass.
    .
    You got hold of some really good stuff from your anesthesiologist where you work in health care and I think discussing anything with you would be a real waste of time.

  • jackhammer69

    “You have a LOT to learn.”
    .
    From you?
    .
    BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    .
    I really don’t have time to tutor you, but…{sigh} ok…. here’s the first five lesson:
    .
    Lesson #1 is:
    .
    Don’t make assumptions and fling unfounded accusations at people based on heuristics. That is just 1 step away from prejudice.
    .
    In fact, your quickness to label me as anti-gay and to berate me as a closet homosexual when I did nothing to provoke that demonstrates a hatred and prejudice that you must unlearn before our lessons can continue to the next phase.

    Lesson#2
    .
    Things cost money.
    .
    Lesson #3.
    If you want to get ahead in life, you have to work.
    .
    lesson #4
    Freedom is a good thing.
    .
    Lesson #5
    Everyone is equal under the law.

    .
    Now, young disciple, go off and meditate on these Five Lessons. I will teach you more when you have demonstrated full mastery of these basic principles.

    .

  • jackhammer69

    I worked in the same place as a gay black man.
    .
    Why?


    .
    I don’t know. You brought it up. You wanted ot talk about gay black men for some reason.
    .
    This is where I got the idea that you were babbling about black gay people.

    .
    NO!!! see……
    .
    I wasn’t babbling about gay black men. I was babbling about people on the left saying that 18% of the population was insignificant. (i.e. “who cares?”)
    .
    My point was that the original poster doesn’t know anything about demographics. 18% is a significant number of people (roughly 54 million).
    .
    Who cares, indeed.

  • jbaustian

    Jackhammer: “Try again!
    Only next time don’t assume.”
    .
    You have just discovered that Patrick likes to create a caricature version of anyone who disagrees with him, then attacks the caricature. I’ve been trying to educate him on the subject of logical fallacy, and he might be getting better. But he still falls into his old practices on a regular basis. For example, he assumes that if someone runs into my car, I will pull a gun and shoot that person. Little does he know that I don’t even own a firearm, and even if I did I would only use it in self-defense. But it apparently suits his purposes to accuse me of being a trigger-happy lunatic.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “You have just discovered that Patrick likes to create a caricature version of anyone who disagrees with him, then attacks the caricature.”
    .
    You said that Haiti, Somalia and North Korea do not like economic progress.
    .
    You said that you believed that Obama wanted to do harm to this country.
    .
    You said that you believe that Carter wanted inflation.
    .
    The things I brought up were, absolutely about some really disturbing statements you made.
    .
    As for Jackhammer, how seriously can I take somebody who loves to toss in at random
    ‘BAHAHAHAHAHAHA”.?
    .
    You know I did go to a few meetings of my high school debating class when I was a freshman, but didn’t stay with it, but, I really don’t remember any of my friends on the team in debate using “BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA”.
    .
    Stick to reasonable and unexagerated statements if you want to be taken at all seriously.

  • jackhammer69

    ‘Stick to reasonable and unexagerated statements if you want to be taken at all seriously.

    .
    This is the internet. And I did find the statements funny. Laughing at something that you find funny is appropriate, and the exact opposite of random.
    .
    Random would be like if I started insulting you for being homophobic, or insinuated that you were gay, or asked if you had some knid of bad experience with a black gay man.
    .
    No, I think my entertaining literature was not at all random.
    .
    You, on the other hand, are now clearly dodging my comments about your prejudice and sterotyping me as a homophobe and closet homosexual. Why did you do that? Why do you think its ok to say those kinds of things?
    .
    Feeling a little stupid today? Or is it just the Liberal in you?
    .
    ps. BAHAAAAHHHHHHAA…….. uh yeah. ;)
    .

  • jackhammer69

    “Try again???”
    .
    You know, this time I will pass.
    .
    You got hold of some really good stuff from your anesthesiologist where you work in health care and I think discussing anything with you would be a real waste of time.

    .
    God, you don’t learn.
    .
    I actually worked in a clinical lab. We didn’t have anesthesia. But I guess in your mind, I did.
    .
    You don’t like losing, eh?
    .
    Score another win for me. But you know, its too bad. Liberals don’t seem to understand that losing and failure is one of the best ways to learn.
    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    You see jackhammer69.
    .
    Well… um… your name. It ends with a sexual position and begins with phallic reference.
    .
    HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?
    .
    So, maybe that means, Dude! I shouldn’t take you too seriously unless… like … I don’t know… your writing is normal looking?
    .
    and, maybe if you didn’t come in and say that you think everybody is STUPID I it would consider taking you seriously.
    .
    But duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude, you like write like a total fkup.
    .
    If I heard you speaking the way that you write, I would think duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan is this guy for real or, maybe he is, like on something.
    .
    If your just brain damaged and have no choice but to write that way, then I am sorry to hear about it.
    .
    Feeeling dumb?
    .
    HUH? HUH? HUH?
    .
    I got you there maaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. So, am I supposed to believe the tea party is all cool becuase of you, man?

  • jackhammer69

    Well… um… your name. It ends with a sexual position and begins with phallic reference….
    .
    .So, maybe that means, Dude! I shouldn’t take you too seriously unless… like … I don’t know… your writing is normal looking?…..
    ..I got you there maaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. So, am I supposed to believe the tea party is all cool becuase of you, man?.”

    .
    What?
    .
    So now that you think you’ve got me defined as a burn out hippy, I’m fit to be ridiculed?
    .
    Actually my name begins with a reference to a loud, heavy, powerful tool that breaks down resistance with brute force. But if that’s a phallic refrence in your mind… ok.
    .
    69 is a number. It could have as easly been 86, 99, 74 or lucky #13.
    .
    I think you have some real issues with simple minded, concrete reasoning. Why do you make so many assumptions?
    .
    Trouble is, I haven’t said “man” at all. And you’ve said “dude” five times more than me (before I make this post, I can word search and find 5 instances of you useing the word “Dude,” (marry a dude, get the dude’s number, etc.), not counting your copyright infringment of my trademark loooong spelling of cool words, compared to my 1 use of the word, AFTER you first used it…..).

    .
    Gah… I win AGAN!
    .
    DUDE!
    .
    I did that because I was trying to speak your lanaguage, dude!
    .
    Don’t you even remeber what you said, dude?
    .
    You need to lay of the weed, dude.
    .
    Now, tell me why your only argument is to insult me? I’ve asked a dozen hard questions in this thread and asked you some direct questions and you haven’t answered any of it.
    .
    Come on with it.
    .
    Tell me why you are right on anything.
    .
    dude.

  • jbaustian

    (quote) “You have just discovered that Patrick likes to create a caricature version of anyone who disagrees with him, then attacks the caricature.”
    .
    You said that Haiti, Somalia and North Korea do not like economic progress. (end of quote)
    .
    No, I believe I said something to the effect that they had economic conditions or systems which did not generate economic growth. I believe it was in the context of a remark that economic growth was not a good thing if it used up resources.
    .
    (quote) You said that you believed that Obama wanted to do harm to this country. (end of quote)
    .
    No, I said there were certain policies which had produced robust economic growth in the past, but Obama was choosing to do the exact opposite. Lowering taxes, shrinking government, repealing unnecessary regulations: these encourage economic growth. Obama wants to increase taxes, expand government, and impose far more regulations — and he expects good results.
    .
    Maybe he just doesn’t know any better.
    .
    (quote) You said that you believe that Carter wanted inflation. (end of quote)
    .
    No, I said he did nothing to prevent or roll back bracket creep. I did not blame him for inflation or express any opinion regarding his opinion of inflation.
    .
    (quote) The things I brought up were, absolutely about some really disturbing statements you made. (end of quote)
    .
    Everything I wrote is either in this thread or the Stargazing thread. Find the exact quotes, if you can or if you want to make the effort. You will not find me saying any of the things you claim I said. Maybe you’re just not a very careful reader; if so, you should work on that. But I am not the only one who thinks you have a tendancy to put words in people’s mouths that they never said.

  • crhoads62

    what is so wrong with cutting taxes on the rich. if the rich don’t have a economic environment that is user friendly can’t imagine that the poor would ever consider starting a business of any sort. a guess taxing the middle class out of existence is on obamas list of things to do. of course i believe that obama wants to tax and spend America out of existence. going to be a long summer waiting for Nov. to get here.

  • genevasmom

    I say we start today with a new approach. No blame for former mistakes, just learning. We need positive attitudes because we are in the fight for our lives as Americans..together. (Truth be told the Silent majority is the most to blamed. We assumed it was being taken care of..) Silent no more. The Tea Party movement is born.
    A united approach to our challenges that means no more racial identification. How about I am an American?
    Enough white blaming, white bashing. Stop, it hurts as a nation. Personal responsibility rules the day.
    It is unfortunate that a president who campaigned as a uniter, is genetically black and white, identify himself on the census as “black”. How does his white grandparents that raised him, supported him financially when the fathers left, feel about that?
    Obama missed a great opportunity to heal our nation. What does that indicate? Let’s quit dancing around the subject. It was a divisive move. I was so hopeful and now so disappointed in our president.
    Basic human reaction from other races when a president chooses this route, is to be threatened by it, period. Being threatened by it is not being a racist Alex. Huge difference.The trust starts in the oval office.
    We the people are so manipulated by the race card. It divides us as a country and I believe our enemies love it.
    It is about the dollar, plain and simple. No one party is holier than tho then the other.
    Regarding Sarah Palin, it always amuses me when individuals think that she is not smart. There is genius in simplicity. Sophisticated she is not. Honest she is. Although I don’t agree with some of the social tenets at least she is willing to take the risk and get involved to help change are country for the better. So much critisism. So little suggestions of solutions. What are you doing as an American to make it better? Are you getting info from the media or are you figuring it out on your own? Hopefully its the latter.
    Lastly, for every Tea Party protester there is 100 at work doing the responsible thing who believe the same. In addition they have families and they are talking to their children. Thus the 18% is indeed much greater.
    I am proud of the people I have met in the movement who are tired from work, but come anyway because of love of country. It is exciting to see ordinary Americans become involved in their country. It is such a exciting and positive thing. Sure there are nut cases that come with extreme views. There are also infilatrators who came with inflamatory signs to hurt a positive movement in a dishonest way. Really sad and pathetic.
    The constitution is a great straight forward document. We were given a gift we need to use it.
    It is always interesting to hear from others who come from other countries as a means to escape oppression, communism, for freedom. They say to me, like my friend from Cuba, “What’s wrong with you Americans. You are giving away your freedom? This is why my family left Cuba” It can happen here. Wake up.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Genevasmom,
    .
    “No blame for former mistakes…”
    .
    Well, this clearly sounds like a reference to Bush and how we are cleaning up after him. Conservatives hate to hear this.
    .
    “… just learning….”
    .
    If you are serious about that, a huge percentage of Republicans do not believe in evolution (which, basically, 100% biologists do), Global warming (which 85% of climatologists do – and a majority of the 15% who do not are, very literally having their funding paid for by oil companies and similar interests) and Keynesian economics (which 80% of all economists believe in – with pressure to support more conservative schools of thought by private business and conservative think tanks who pay very handsomely).
    .
    With that, Keynesian economics will tell you that the stimulus package is a tried and proven remedy to recessions if the right amount of money is involved.
    .
    So, no more misunderstandings about that, right?
    .
    Since climate change is a fact, too, then no more complaints about environmental policy except for on the details of how households, businesses and governments will be mandated to decrease carbon emissions. During World War II in fear of Axis bombing raids the police with volunteer Auxiliary police known as Air raid wardens (my grandfather was one of the later) went door to door during air raids to make sure no light could be seen from the street. Light a cigarette on the street and you could, even by the Auxiliary, be taken away in handcuffs. So, if we made those kind of compromises to save this country before, lets finds out what we can do to save this climate in the future.
    .
    Nothing about the Tea Party has anything to do with evolution per se , but keeping religion out of the classroom and the debates privately inside of your own churches is a step in the right direction.
    .
    Unfortunately, getting Tea Party members onto the same boat with the rest of the country and established facts sounds impossible since so much of what is being said by the Tea Party is factually incorrect and, may I say, lies.

  • liverhead77

    Without getting into the whole “which side is better” argument…

    I think if anyone should be concerned about Sarah Palin and the Tea Party folks, it should be the Republican Party. Assuming things stay the same from an economic perspective over the next two years, the Republicans will be faced with two choices…

    1. Embrace the Tea Party and it’s very loose platform – The impact of this choice will be to move the Republican Party’s platform further to the right potentially alienating the large group of undecided centrists that the two parties battle over during the general elections. This may tip the balance in favor of the Democrats.

    2. Disavow the Tea Party – This may result in a major third party candidate like Sarah Palin that takes away valuable votes from more center-right Republican candidates.

    In either case, it may cause some problems for the Republicans. It should be very interesting to observe!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor


    Gah… I win AGAN!
    .
    DUDE!
    .
    I did that because I was trying to speak your lanaguage, dude!”
    .
    Speaking of assuming.
    .
    In my background and my life I have never had the reason to refer to a person as “dude” and have never smoked weed even once.
    .
    “Gah… I win AGAN!”
    .
    BTW: you definitely do not win a spelling contest for basic English vocabulary.
    .
    You wouldn’t know a real debate if your life depended upon it.

  • jackhammer69

    In my background and my life I have never had the reason to refer to a person as “dude” and have never smoked weed even once.

    .
    Stop lying!
    .
    We all saw you say “if it does it will not make me want to marry a dude.” and “I didn’t get the dude’s number.”
    .
    Now you want to say you have never had a reason to use that word??
    .
    please.
    .
    you definitely do not win a spelling contest for basic English vocabulary.

    .
    Spelling and vocabulary are not the same thing. That, of course, was a typo. I had been up for about 20 hours straight when I typed that. So I missed a letter. Sorry if that confused you. (I still win)
    .
    You wouldn’t know a real debate if your life depended upon it.
    .
    Whatever. You are the one failing to engage in an intelligent debate.
    .
    Tell me why your only argument is to insult me? I’ve asked a dozen hard questions in this thread and asked you some direct questions and you haven’t answered any of it.
    .
    Calling people names and insulting them is not a debate
    .
    That is at least the third time I have confronted you directly about your stereotyping, prejudice, name calling and lack of an actual argument.
    .
    All you do is label me and insult me.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Correction: I do not use that word outside of jest.
    .
    You have not yet presented anything that even vaguely resembles a useful point about the Tea Party.
    .
    You are here to argue, not to debate.
    .
    There is a huge difference.
    .
    You said that you were using the word to speak “our” language.
    .
    Who is making assumptions?
    .
    The jackasshammer is making the assumptions and making an ass out of himself.
    .
    So, please post somewhere where arguments are preferred.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    liver,
    .
    You have made a point that the liberal majority of this blog has, also, made.
    .
    It is an identical point and you have not specified where you political leanings are.
    .
    From there, you can see why progressives/liberals love seeing things about Sarah Palin. It is either, exactly as you said, going to cause a rip in the Republican party with third party candidates eating up Republican votes like Ross Perot and Nader did to Democrats, but, unlike those two, not just on a presidential level but in congressional races, too.
    .
    The other alternative is for them to win the Republican nominations and have candidates who are unelectable.
    .
    One point I have made, in addition those non-partisan observations of yours is that the Republicans without the Tea Party have already assured the American people that there will be death panels, 16,500 armed IRS agents, long waits for doctors, tax increases for some of the lower 99.5% who do not earn $250,000 a year and significant insurance rate increases greater than those already happening.
    .
    Once people see that the death panels, the armed IRS agents, forced compliance and tax increases are absolute lies and that if any at all, increased waiting time and insurance rate increases will be minimal there will be a backlash against these Republicans just as there was in 2006 when GWB and the Republicans in both houses lied about WMD in Iraq and ignored Katrina.
    .
    My only question is will the backlash against existing Republicans start in 2010 or 2012.
    .
    If the Tea Party is still around in 2012, they will make everything worse for Republicans as I said above.
    .
    So, if your a Democrat feeling a little down and out or just bored, Sarah and Teabags is just what you need to cheer up.
    . :D

  • jackhammer69

    Correction: I do not use that word outside of jest.

    .
    Jest?
    .
    Weren’t you lecturing me about being taken seriously?
    .
    Why do you jest about homosexuality? Why is that funny to you? Why is your first reaction to stereotype people and make fun of them?
    .
    Have you thought about the 5 Lessons I gave you?
    .
    You have not yet presented anything that even vaguely resembles a useful point about the Tea Party.


    .
    My very first post was about the fact that Tea Party supporters are not racist and the fact that the Black Community doesn’t support the Tea Party is not proof that the Tea Party is racist.
    .
    But I guess you missed that in your rush to call me gay.
    .
    I also posted several tax related questions, including, “Why do the majority of taxes fall disproportionately on the poor?” . And all you can do is ignore what I say and call me names.
    .
    Keep trying. The fact is, I’m smarter than you.
    .
    You’re the one who doesn’t have an argument here. Remember, dude?

  • earljr1

    You continue to live in your dream world, patrick and making points that are sheer fabrication. The tea party is most definitely a plus for Republicans, because people are fed up with the high handed attitude of democrats in power. The “we know whats good for you” mentality conflicts, most significantly, with the Constitutional mandate of governing BASED on the will of the people. Just check your polls at real clear politics and you will see a democratic congress that has fallen OUT of favor and a real eyeopener in the percentage of people who think this country is headed in the wrong direction. If you think these people are going to vote democratic, then it looks like you are buying another bridge in Brooklyn. P.S.your take on HCR and increased wait time for Doctors, reflects impaired vision due to those rose colored glasses.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Keep trying. The fact is, I’m smarter than you.”
    .
    See, that comment alone in addition to “I win” is just proof that you know nothing about debate.
    .
    It is not about the individual. It is I have the correct facts, I have come to the most reasonable conclusion from the facts and I have shown that my argument is stronger than yours.
    .
    I really doubt you have a higher IQ than I do, but, I will immediately concede that IQ is a test of the ability to understand certain relatively arbitrary puzzles.
    .
    You, basically, are like a graffiti artist on this blog marking up everything but saying nothing.

  • liverhead77

    “a democratic congress that has fallen OUT of favor and a real eyeopener in the percentage of people who think this country is headed in the wrong direction. If you think these people are going to vote democratic, then it looks like you are buying another bridge in Brooklyn”

    I think there is a difference between saying people are dissatisfied with the Democratic-controlled Congress and saying people are embracing the “ideology” of the Tea Party. The centrists who voted in the Democrats may be fed up, but at the end of the day, they are still centrists. They don’t like extremes on either side and the current perception is that the Tea Party may be a little too far on the right.

    It’s not enough that people are upset with the Democrats. The Right needs to field candidates that will be palatable to centrists. I think the Tea Party represents a real danger to the chances of the Republican Party to convert centrists to their cause.

    Of course, in political time, the elections are about a million years from now. That’s time for either the Tea Party to become a more directed, legitimate force or for the economy to significantly improve. Economic improvement could quickly eliminate the current American existential crisis which seems to be fueling the new populist right. We’ll see!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The tea party is most definitely a plus for Republicans, because people are fed up with the high handed attitude of democrats in power.”
    .
    Think that over again.
    .
    If the general Republican party were sure that Democrats were high handed and more so than Republicans and this was shared by independents, then this would be good for the Republican Party. Unfortunately, these people are going to disagree with the less conservative (see RINO) part of the Party and create a rift or, if they are going to be cheer leaders for existing Republicans (which does not sound likely to me) they are going annoy independents by yelling at Democrats in public places and being a public nuisance.
    .
    “The “we know whats good for you” mentality conflicts, most significantly, with the Constitutional mandate of governing BASED on the will of the people.”
    .
    I’ve shown you the NYT June 2009 survey many times where seventy something percent asked for HCR including 50% of all Republicans.There was an incredibly large amount if misinformation about this bill and these surveys reflect people who misunderstand what the bill does. Once they discover that it does what they wanted all along, they will change their minds.
    .
    I, also, showed you a survey where the president’s popularity was bouncing back.
    .
    Freeinpa showed me a poll where it included all of what you say, but, in one of the first of thirty eight questions was who they would vote for in congress in 2010 if the election were today and it was for Democrats. Freeinpa got mad when I told him that he had just sent me evidence Democrat’s success.
    .
    “…increased wait time for Doctors..”
    .
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=OlE&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&num=10&lr=&ft=i&cr=&safe=images&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=nws:1&q=increased%20wait%20time%20for%20Doctors&sa=N&tab=wn
    .
    No articles at all available on this concept that the wait times are or are very soon expected to be unbearable.
    .
    Using your doctor metaphors, what would happen if a regular surgeon is about to do regular surgery and in a dazed state right before the patient mumbles “I don’t want this surgery. When you take out my tonsils you’ll cut my balls off, too.”
    .
    Well, since the patient is not thinking clearly and has their facts all wrong, I would guess that you continue the surgery. So when voters say that they oppose HCR reform because they do not want big tax increases, death panels, and 16,500 arms IRS agents forcing people to go to the doctor, you try your best to explain that they have been lied to, vote for it and, then when it is out there hope that the voters wake up and find out that this is what they asked for.

  • jackhammer69

    It is not about the individual. It is I have the correct facts, I have come to the most reasonable conclusion from the facts and I have shown that my argument is stronger than yours.
    .
    And what arguments have you made?
    .
    You insulted me, mocked me, and did not answer any of my questions.
    .
    I really doubt you have a higher IQ than I do, but, I will immediately concede that IQ is a test of the ability to understand certain relatively arbitrary puzzles.


    .
    Yeah, like figuring out what people mean when they are writing on a blog.
    .
    You, basically, are like a graffiti artist on this blog marking up everything but saying nothing.
    .
    I like to think of myself as more of a philosophical warrior armed with reason, intellect and libertarianism who goes around smiting leftist fools; saving the country one person at a time.
    .
    I’m tired of the left characterizing the right as dumb. It is the left that is stupid and its time someone pointed it out.
    .
    In the real world there are winners and losers, Pat. And you have lost this debate. You have not answered any of my questions about taxes or other left wing policies. You have not answered my challenges to you about your cruel, racist, anti-gay comments and attitude.
    .
    I asked why the Health Care bill costs so much. You told me to look up Rush Limbaugh’s ass.
    .

    You’ve made fun of my name (jackasshammer), insinuated sexual meanings where there were none, and missed the obvious allusions that I intended even idiots to get.
    .
    You brought up gay black men for some reason that I still don’t understand.
    .

    You have called me several things I am not (gay, homophobic, Rush Limbaugh fan, religious, etc).
    .
    You forget what you say minutes after you say it, dude. Then you try to mock me when I use your “dude speak” back on you…. too stupid to even realize what you are saying.
    .
    You try to ridicule me for a few typos when your own writing leaves a lot to be desired.
    .
    Meanwhile I try to point out that your behaviors indicate a simple mind, quick to judge and run to the easy solution. Typical of left wing voters.
    .
    After repeated attempts to get you to actually make a valid left wing argument over any issue, you still refuse to do anything other than insult and ridicule, just like so many other mouth pieces of the left (Rachel Madcow and Keith Overbender come to mind).
    .
    You are clearly incapable of intelligent debate. You haven’t even thought about the lessons I tried to teach you, which you asked for in cruel jest.
    .
    You have done nothing but demonstrate my points: Liberals are racist, divisive, naive, mean-spirited, simple-minded people with no real arguments other than to ridicule and insult.
    .

    And so, sweet Patrick, I must declare GAME OVER.
    .
    You lose.
    .
    That’s not just me saying that. Eveyone reading this thread can see that.
    .

  • earljr1

    No, liver, I have participated in a few tea party rallies and these people are NOT voting for the democrats. A fairly large percentage of these people identified themselves as independents (myself included) and centrist. Massachusetts is a good example of where these votes are going to go. So if you live in patricks fantasy world, keep deluding your self that everything will be hunky dory and democrats will still be envisioned as “saviors”…in the REAL world, that is NOT going to happen. patrick, those of us in the health care industry are just now getting a glimpse of what HCR is going to mean and it is a real nightmare. The ramifications of this bill will be highly disruptive to this industry and yes, my friend, when implemented,take a number and wait…your Doctor is going to be too busy to see you any time soon (perhaps you can go to Canada, but wait…the Canadians are already coming HERE!) oops.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Earl,
    .
    “No, liver, I have participated in a few tea party rallies and these people are NOT voting for the democrats. A fairly large percentage of these people identified themselves as independents (myself included) and centrist.”
    .
    Well I met with other Democrats and they are not voting Republican.
    .
    You are proving our point with that statement, not your own. You met with a strongly conservative group of people called the Tea Party and they are not going to change from being highly conservative. Their registered Republicans are going to push the Republican platform to the right where centrists will vote for any reasonable Democrat above them while Democrats, also, get our regular votes and they may, if they can not win over the Republicans, run a third party candidate, split the conservative vote and cost the Republicans seats even where they should be safe, should they do that.
    .
    Or, perhaps they will be so angry that, if they can not push the platform to the right, they will stay home and still give the election to any Democrat running.
    .
    For wait times, there must be a mathematical equation for this since it is a word problem.
    .
    W2 = W1 + (15/85W1) = W2 = W1 + (3/17 W1) if W1 = pre-HCR wait times and W2 = post-HCR wait times.
    .
    For every 85 people already waiting there will be 15 new people in the system.
    .
    Of course that is not including that a huge majority of those 15% are going to use less medical services per person than the other 85% and this is why they did not previously find some way to get health insurance and that those 15% already get emergency room care and postpone illnesses until they become far more serious and cost more in both time and money than if they had health care.
    .
    Since you never had a good answer to why this type of a word problem equation doesn’t work and I have not been able to find any articles about long lines waiting for GPs, I will have to believe that you just have a dark view of government, other countries and the voters.
    .
    BTW: last week I had shown you an article that, although some of the wealthiest and most impatient Canadians are coming here, Americans are going to Canada. Somebody else found an article that, thirty something years ago, one such American who crossed the border to Canada was a child named Sarah (Palin).

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Yeah… and I might point out that over 90% of the “Black Community” that votes in every election votes for Democrats. So it is no wonder that the “Black Community” doesn’t support the Tea Party Movement.”
    .
    “Check the election results for the past 50 years or so. Its always like that. It was actually a little higher than average this last time, for some reason…… “
    .
    “Hey, just for a laugh, why don’t you tell us all why you think that the overwhelming majority of African American voters vote for democrats? I’d love to learn from your wisdom.”
    .
    “Its too bad so many people never figure out that we live in the real world. The same one you read about in history books…. where cruel, unspeakable things happen to good people every day and there is no law you can pass that will protect us all.”
    .
    “””3) Tea partiers are not racists — they just favor a color-blind government.”
    .
    Amen.”
    .
    “Lesson#2
    .
    Things cost money.
    .
    Lesson #3.
    If you want to get ahead in life, you have to work.”
    .
    “Only 2% to (possibly) 4% of the population is homosexual.
    .
    only 12.3% of the population is African American (according to the 2000 Census)
    .
    Only 12.8% is 65 years old or older.”
    .
    “Yes, but did you ever encounter any gay black men?”
    .

    Yes, but did you ever encounter any gay black men?
    .
    “I was babbling about people on the left saying that 18% of the population was insignificant. (i.e. “who cares?”)”
    .
    So, you are saying that belonging to the Tea Party puts you on par with a group of people who’s ancestors faced 200 years of forced labor, rape, no recourse through the courts and one hundred years of forced segregation?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    The point about the numbers was that, at any given time, somewhere near 18% of the population is so woefully misinformed that they believe that the US broke off from France, not England, for example.
    .
    Yet, you seem to think that Democrats do no work hard and, it seems as if you are saying that 90% of blacks vote for Democrats for that reason since they are most likely not voting for gays rights.
    .
    Try to make sane arguments.

  • jackhammer69

    So, you are saying that belonging to the Tea Party puts you on par with a group of people who’s ancestors faced 200 years of forced labor, rape, no recourse through the courts and one hundred years of forced segregation?

    .
    No. I didn’t say that at all. I said there were 50% more tea party supports than there are African Americans.
    .
    Weak, pat. Really.
    .
    Game STILL over.

  • jackhammer69

    The point about the numbers was that, at any given time, somewhere near 18% of the population is so woefully misinformed that they believe that the US broke off from France, not England, for example.


    .
    Yeah, I got that. But that doesn’t prove anything. The average American is dumb as hell. Of course, the NY Times poll shows that Tea Party supporters have above average educations, so they are not as dumb as average Americans.
    .
    Most of those people who think America won its independence from France probably vote Democrat.
    .
    Give it up, Pat. I’m done with you.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    J.
    .
    “Find the exact quotes, if you can or if you want to make the effort. You will not find me saying any of the things you claim I said.”
    .
    “Barack Obama is doing the exact opposite from what Reagan did…all seem intentionally designed to weaken the private sector.”
    .
    “Classical economic theories never failed, they just lost favor because too many politicians wanted to expand government without limits. They resisted the classical theories that the burden of government was a dead weight on the economy — that the burden of every tax was greater than the amount of revenue raised from that tax, that government spending was always less efficient than private spending, and the same for government “investment”. Only in very narrow categories such as national defense and transportation infrastructure did it make sense for government to take the lead.
    .
    Keynes was popular because he advocated an expansion of government spending, and the politicians in power already wanted to do that. But it was WWII that brought down the unemployment rate in the 1930s, and the New Deal actually deepened and prolonged the Great Depression.”
    .
    “Carter did not actually have to increase tax rates — he just used hyper-inflation to push people into higher and higher tax brackets.”
    .
    “If you don’t like economic growth, then move to Haiti or Somalia or North Korea, or at least get out of the way of those Americans who want jobs and do not want their government to put up barriers to the creation of jobs.”
    .
    Why do I even bother typing?
    .
    Most of you guys make some amazingly good cases against yourselves.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The average American is dumb as hell.”
    .
    We believe that the average American is not dumb as hell, but the Tea Partiers are woefully misinformed and are acting stupid while the other 82% of Americans both have brighter ideas than you do and are going to continue to elect enough Democrats to keep the majority in the house and senate in 2010.
    .
    I’ll remember that quote “The average American is dumb as hell.” the next time that any of you elitist rebels like the White Russians of 1917 who fought not only the the Bolsheviks but the Mensheviks (social democrats) say that we are the elitists.
    .
    Now, enough with your WWE pseudo debating.

  • earljr1

    It is so easy to sit there in your easy chair, your head full liberal dreams, lollipops and unicorns. Surely this is where most of this fantasy stuff comes from, isn’t it? Your concoct gibberish formula’s for how easy it will be to add 32 million people to an already over burdened health delivery system and then manage to turn the palatable anger most of us feel toward this administration , into a GAIN for democrats. I have one more question for you….have you taken leave of your senses? You outrageously suggested jackhammer was on drugs and yet YOU are the one spouting sheer nonsense. Is this a natural thing with you?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “It is so easy to sit there in your easy chair, your head full liberal dreams, lollipops and unicorns. Surely this is where most of this fantasy stuff comes from, isn’t it? Your concoct gibberish formula’s for how easy it will be to add 32 million people to an already over burdened health delivery system and then manage to turn the palatable anger most of us feel toward this administration , into a GAIN for democrats.”
    .
    It’s dinning room chair I bought second hand since my old office chair broke from over use while both working and spending my free time in exactly the same seat.
    .
    Economists, sir, use equations to figure things out. I have, long ago, completed all of the requirements for that undergraduate degree but have not had the money to graduate. This is why I do not have an easy chair, have a cheap, small apartment near public transit and many, many other things rather than a house and so on. I am saving money to resume my education and go on to law school.
    .
    You have no reasonable explanation as to why the wait times will go up exponentially when there will be only a 17.64705% increase in the number of patients for GPs especially including that all of those people used to go there.
    .
    Clearly some of the GPs who work in hospitals for the free or discounted services for the poor will go to private practices. This should cut the increase in half if not more.
    .
    So, using math and reasoning to you means that you are influenced by a substance?
    .
    I know that anesthesiologists are the most likely drug users of any profession in the world. Mathematicians, Economists and those who use numbers for a living are not especially prone to drug use.
    .
    There are no magic ferries in this calculation of mine. Just raw, hard numbers based upon facts.
    .
    Facts are something the cognitive dissonance of the Tea Party and the far right tend to check at the door in exchange for an adrenalin rush to “defend America” from “socialism” and “government takeovers”.

  • jackhammer69

    We believe that the average American is not dumb as hell

    .
    Then you need to learn about how our standardized test score measure up against the rest of the world. Or look at our drop out rate. Or watch a little Jay Walking. Or talk to some liberals.
    .
    Here’s a funny anecdote:
    .
    As the 2000 election season was heating up, the New Hampshire Republican primary was held the same weekend as the Super Bowl. On the following Monday CNN did a poll asking the following questions:
    .
    1. Who won the New Hampshire Primary?
    2. Who won the Super Bowl?
    .
    66 percent of Americans surveyed knew who won the super bowl but only 30% knew who won the primary.
    .
    Maybe if more people were paying attention to politics instead of watching football, the past 10 years would be different.
    .
    Look at the things that become popular in our culture: Survivor, American Idol, rap/dance/pop music (how low can you go -Chipmunks version?), celebrities (Paris Hilton?), junk food, obsessive stories about Tiger Woods’ extra-marital affairs, endless stories about Bill Clinton’s sexual misadventures, even clothing styles that intentionally make you look stupid (or, “look like a fool, with your hat turned around and your pants on the ground”).
    .
    Yeah, Americans are pretty dumb, on average. Some of them even think that being dumb is cool.
    .
    Sorry to break it to you.
    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “…stories about Bill Clinton’s sexual misadventures…”
    .
    Sorry, that was an example of conservative stupidity.
    .
    “As the 2000 election season was heating up, the New Hampshire Republican primary was held the same weekend as the Super Bowl… only 30% knew who won the primary.”
    .
    Sorry, that;s another example of Republican Party/conservative stupidity.
    .
    “Then you need to learn about how our standardized test score measure up against the rest of the world. Or look at our drop out rate.”
    .
    Sorry, a huge portion of that is due to how our schools are not as well funded and how a high school degree is not worth the paper it is written on while a college diploma is unaffordable to over half of the public.
    .
    “Some of them even think that being dumb is cool.”
    .
    That explains the popularity of Dubbya and Palin very effectively since they both were marketed as the anti-intellectuals.
    .
    “Maybe if more people were paying attention to politics instead of watching football, the past 10 years would be different.”
    .
    President Bill Bradly or, possibly Al Gore would have happened.
    .
    Republicans seem to like keeping the general public who can not afford the high costs of towns with great schools or a private education.
    .
    An uneducated public is their best customer.
    .
    Obama and Clinton are both former law professors and both strikingly intelligent.
    .
    Gore isn’t too bad, either.
    .
    Bill Bradly was, like Clinton, a Rhodes Scholar.
    .
    Democrats very rarely (no time I can think of off the top of my head – but not never, I am sure) play “I am dumb like you” the way Palin and Dubbya both have.

  • jackhammer69

    Sorry, that was an example of conservative stupidity.

    .

    Yeah… I know.. I can’t believe how dense you are!!

    .

    I was making the point that Americans are stupid. Republicans are Americans too, you know. There are stupid people on both sides. There are stupid people everywhere.

    .

    Once again you’ve managed to simultaneously miss my point and prove it… and tell me several things I already know in the process.

    .

    You think you know what’s wrong with the schools?

    .

    I started out my education in Upstate NY in one of the better public schools in the country. Half way through High School I transferred to one of the worst public schools in the country (middle TN).

    .

    A year later, I dropped out. The day I dropped out, I had straight As. My Geometry teacher said, “Oh my God, why are you dropping out? Look, you have a 106 average in my class!”

    .

    I told her, “Because no one should have a 106 average in anything! I don’t even study! I don’t do homework! I sit in the back and sleep! Why is my grade that high? And worse than that, most other students in this class are failing!”

    .

    I couldn’t stand the oversized classes (50+ students per teacher). The dumbed-down lessons. The stupid classmates. The social promotion. The lack of learning. The cheating on tests. The gangs. The drugs. The stupid teachers. The stupid administrators. The stupid rules. The utter mockery of education that was going on.

    .

    So I dropped out and went to college, where I carried a 4.0 GPA in my major and a 3.2 overall. And loved it.

    .

    I know what’s wrong with the schools, Pat. I don’t need you to tell me.

    .

    But just because the public schools suck (thanks in part to teacher’s unions and the Dept. of ED.), that doesn’t give people an excuse to be stupid. There were a few smart, educated people that graduated from my HS in TN. The difference between them and most of their peers was that they took personal responsibility for their education. They understood it was important and worked hard at it. Not like the stupid kids, who resisted every attempt the teachers made to teach them anything.

    .
    President Bill Bradly or, possibly Al Gore would have happened.
    .
    Maybe… but yeah. .. that’s close to the point. You’re catching on!!!
    .

    Sorry, that;s another example of Republican Party/conservative stupidity.
    .

    No, that’s an example of stupidity across the board. Everyone should know what is going on with their government. I don’t vote for Democrats, but I still know what is going on in their primaries.

    .
    . Obama and Clinton are both former law professors and both strikingly intelligent.
    .
    Gore isn’t too bad, either.
    .
    Bill Bradly was, like Clinton, a Rhodes Scholar.

    .
    Gore is a fool.
    .

    Clinton and Obama are smart. I never said they weren’t. They just have the wrong idea (agenda?). They may be smart, but they are not smart enough. And most Americans are too stupid to know better.
    .

    Regarding Bill Clinton’s sexual misadventures, I wasn’t talking about the Republican witch hunt (which was also stupid), I was talking about the public’s fascination with every tawdry bit of “news” about it. You know, I was making the point that Americans, in general, on average, are not that smart. They’d rather hear “news” stories about a stain on a blue dress than stories about what is going on in Iraq or Afganistan!

    .

    Stupid Americans.

    .

    However, on balance, as the NY Times poll shows, conservative, Tea Party supports seem to be a little smarter than average. Normally, I wouldn’t point that out again, but you seem to need coaching to keep up with a conversation.
    .

    Thank you for helping me prove that most Americans are stupid, including you.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    jackhammer69.
    .
    First, I guess it was one of those “gotcha” moments with you when you failed to find even one example of liberal ideas or even any nationally known liberal politician being stupid.
    .
    Second, it appears that your definition of stupid includes not agreeing with you.
    .
    Third, you couldn’t help yourself but to grab those conservative buzz words of “personal responsibility”.
    .
    There absolutely, positively is a very reasonable definition of personal responsibility. But it is unlike anything conservatives or libertarians use it for.
    .
    Somebody is up all night with friends and having a good time and then sleeps too late and, still, is too sleepy to do their job well and does not correct their error.
    .
    A guy has an argument with his wife and handles it by going out and gulping down a bottle of whiskey but says it is because of his wife is a man lacking a sense of “personal responsibility”.
    .
    Somebody is in an easy school when they are a child or a teenager, gets great grades, has a very anti-intellectual family at home and believes that they know as much or far more than they need to know and do not look for more is not a person who lacks personal responsibility. It is a person who is in the wrong town with the wrong family and in school system which needs to get teachers who are able to grab students attention and really challenge them.
    .
    It’s a long and complicated story, but, I was in an elementary school which was like your TN high school. Then I went to the top rated public high school.
    .
    Maybe, since it was in that order followed by the most challenging schools I could possibly find that I became liberal from a conservative, Republican town.
    .
    I’ve always made it a goal when in a school to be the most ignorant and, if possible, the least intelligent man in the room. Why? That is how you learn.
    .
    When you are the smartest guy in the room, you both become a know-it-all and are closed minded to new ideas and soon sink down into ignorance.
    .
    You, Jackhammer, have not been around people brighter than you enough. You’ve become arrogant and, by being so, ignorant.
    .
    The Tea Party is about exploiting ignorance including self-imposed ignorance on people who are so in love with their own world view that they disown facts of economics and many aspects of reality to maintain that world view.
    .
    Go back to college just to audit a few classes, feel very stupid and gain real knowledge.
    .
    Then come back to us without your condescension.

  • jackhammer69

    First, I guess it was one of those “gotcha” moments with you when you failed to find even one example of liberal ideas or even any nationally known liberal politician being stupid.

    .
    Policies: Handgun regulation in DC and Chicago – which caused violent crime rates to go up. That wasn’t too smart was it? (just one example, others would be “living wage” laws, hate crimes laws, tax and spend policies [see California], and many, many more)
    .

    Politicians: Any Democrat that thinks we need more entitlements, more taxes, more government regulation and more government control isn’t thinking things through enough. (Nancy Polosi ["violence occurred!!" oh, CRY!], Arlen Specter [He's a Democrat, no he's a republican, no he's a democrat again], Shelia Jackson Lee [It's called "nationalization," miz. Lee], Charlie Rangel [let's go on vacation!], Dick Durbin [too many to count], etc.)
    .
    But my problem isn’t with the democratic politicians as much as it is with the stupid people who vote for them. Or the leftists in the media that try to skew the news in favor of leftist ideals.
    .
    Somebody is in an easy school when they are a child or a teenager, gets great grades, has a very anti-intellectual family at home and believes that they know as much or far more than they need to know and do not look for more is not a person who lacks personal responsibility.

    .
    No. Anyone who thinks they already know far more than they need to know, is an idiot. There no laws you can pass to fix that. Giving them a handout won’t fix that.

    .

    It is a person who is in the wrong town with the wrong family and in school system which needs to get teachers who are able to grab students attention and really challenge them.


    .
    This is the crux of the issue. You think people are victims of circumstance a lot more frequently than I do.
    .

    We all have crosses to bear, Pat. No one has a perfect life. We can’t go around making more government agencies and passing more laws and handing out more entitlements to every person that might not have had the very best opportunities.
    .
    My dad is a Vietnam vet. When I was growing up, he was still suffering from PTSD. That led to some trauma in my youth. Can I get a handout for that?
    .

    I’m also left handed. That makes sitting in school desks more difficult for me. Can I get a handout for that too? (actually I can… but I didn’t because I don’t need handouts)
    .

    Government handouts are not the answer. “Living wage” laws are not the answer. Welfare is not the answer. Social promotion is not the answer. Giving losers a trophy for “participation” is not the answer. Changing the entire health care system to cover 10% of the population is not the answer. Railing against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan just because you don’t like Bush is not the answer. Banning handguns in an attempt to reduce violent crime is not the answer. Higher corporate taxes are not the answer.
    .
    Every time you pass a law, you lose a little bit of freedom. Why does our government spend all of its time trying to take away more of our freedoms? We need fewer laws, fewer regulations, and more freedom. But leftists don’t get that. They want to make more laws to legislate fairness into the universe.
    .
    But life isn’t fair, Pat. Even if you live in America, you still live in the real world where unfair things happen to good people all the time and there is nothing you can do about it.
    .
    So some kids grow up in the inner city without a father and surrounded by gang violence. Maybe people who can’t afford to have kids shouldn’t have them in the first place? Maybe kids that grow up in tough neighborhoods have to find ways of turning their lemons into lemonade (just like the rest of us). Would 50 Cent be rich and famous today if he hadn’t grown up in the ‘hood? In fact there are thousands of stories of young Americans starting out in tough circumstances and not only succeeding, but thriving because of their circumstances.
    .
    If you always give someone the money they need, they never learn the value of a dollar, or how to earn more. They just learn that you are there to give them money whenever they need it.
    .
    I’ve always made it a goal when in a school to be the most ignorant and, if possible, the least intelligent man in the room.


    .
    Do you do that on the internet too?
    .
    You, Jackhammer, have not been around people brighter than you enough. You’ve become arrogant and, by being so, ignorant.

    .
    I love how you keep trying to characterize me in a negative light and then ridicule me. I actually like people who are smarter than I am and try to surround myself with them. It is from those people that I learned that leftist ideas are often silly and naive.
    .
    Here, let me try to use your tactic against you:
    .
    You, Pat, are someone who finds that making your own way in the world is too difficult. You want the government to pay for your education, make sure you find a good job, make sure you earn a good salary, make sure you don’t get victimized, and make sure you have health care and retirement.
    .
    Why can’t you do those things for yourself?
    .
    You know, kids in Rwanda don’t have the same benefits and opportunities as you have. That’s not fair to them. What should we do about that, Pat?
    .
    I work with a lot of immigrants (legal and illegal). And I can tell you that people who come here from other countries don’t expect nearly as many handouts and “rights” as people who are born here. And they don’t complain about life and hardship neary as much as Americans complain. First generation immigrants know what it takes to get ahead in life. Even those that come from ex-communist countries think that people should work and should not be given handouts.
    .
    If I am having trouble with an employee who acts like he is entitled to a paycheck, complains about the benefits all the time and makes trouble with the other employees and the HR department, that employee is always a natural born citizen. My employees that come from Kurdistan, Iran, the Philippians, Laos, Mexico, Honduras, Nigeria, and the Czech Republic are all good employees. Some Americans are good employees too (usually the older ones). But if an employee is a bad worker (lazy, stupid, complaining, trouble making, bad attendance), that employee is invariably an American.
    .
    My guess is they probably vote democrat too, since they seem to want money for nothing and “social justice.”
    .
    Now, before you respond, read everything I wrote at least twice and think about it. I grow weary of explaining myself to you.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Now, talk about assumptions!
    .
    I do not look for handouts as a commercial real estate agent doing my work in Manhattan.
    .
    I live in the most ethnically diverse county of the United states: Queens. I, also, in my various jobs have met Russians and other people from former Communist countries who find our lack of public health care a publicly funded higher education frightening and barbaric. That varies considerably from person to person, but, few outside of former Communist countries I have met say that this government is anything but conservative.
    .
    First, NY, NJ, CT and MA have the strictest gun laws in the country and NYC is the safest major city in America.
    .
    It was not PTSD but my late father had untreated problems of his own which are too complicated to discuss and somewhat personal. I don’t, as they say, talk out of class about my now late father as you do about yours here.
    .
    Handouts and opportunities are very dissimilar.
    .
    Handouts about the results of work.
    .
    Opportunities is about the means to work.
    .
    When you were a little boy, did you say, “Wow, when I grow up, I want to pay for a doctor’s visit.” No?
    .
    Have you ever said as an adult or as a child that you were too ill to work that day?
    .
    So, paying for doctors is not the pleasure one has from working such as buying a car or having a pleasant apartment/ house.
    .
    It is a means to work.
    .
    The same goes for higher education (in addition to k through 12).
    .
    The so-called “free”market closes doors of opportunities so that education is not a competition of who has the most brains. It is a competition of the top 30% or 40% of students who can get tuition money from family, are at the top 1% of their class and get scholarship or are medically qualified for military service and are lucky not to end up either like your father or, worse yet, dead.
    .
    I got unemployment benefits after 9/11 while working two part time jobs. That is because before 9/11 I had one part time job and a full time job. I never wanted the benefits, but, couldn’t pay the bills without and, like any insurance policy, I was collecting what I had paid before.
    .
    So, what do you do for a living Jackhammer?
    .
    How was your tuition financed and was post-Reagan or was it during better times for blue collar wages before Reagan?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    How about new regulations handling derivatives?
    .
    How about regulations governing how mortgages must be so that the one taking the mortgage can fully understand beneath their enthusiasm that rates may go beyond their means?
    .
    How about regulations on the companies which rate bonds so that won’t give toxic assets a AAA rating?
    .
    How about the Glass Steagall Act which protected savings in banks from the ups and downs of financial exchanges?
    .
    Regulation is inherently bad?
    .
    If so, then why did we not have any significant number of bank failures except for the unregulated Savings and Loans in the 1980s and, again, after the repeal of the Glass Steagall Act?
    .
    Oh, that is just random luck, right?
    .
    When public goods such as education, law enforcement, fire, higher education and health care are not funded publicly, then you have a suboptimal result.
    .
    If you want to know more about optimal results, study econ because I am not going to explain economics of government to a know-it-all.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Your concepts sound like they are from the Cato institute, not from life experiences.
    .
    If you’ve had extensive life experience in the 1990s onward, you will see highly intelligent people (most often immigrants from countries which do not provide free higher education – that and the Moscow subways are among about a handful of things the Soviet Union got right in an absurd system without acknowledging private goods) – who read on their own but do not have tuition money and are working now, as young people to try and make sure that, if not themselves, their children or grandchildren will have such opportunities.
    .
    The few instances of government “handouts” are for those crippled, blind, deaf, very mentally ill or who have one or more children without the skills needed to earn enough to feed, clothe and house them.
    .
    The income is minuscule: about $10.000 per year for a single person and about $20,000 combined in housing, cash and food stamps.
    .
    The system is so hard to get into that there is a small industry of lawyers (obviously one not in it to get rich since they will get a cut of a welfare check, not a million or multi-million dollar settlement) to help people who are ill get those benefits.
    .
    Close to 100% of our homeless meet all of the requirements for this type of basic assistance, but, are often too mentally ill to go through the arduous process without help from relatives, friends or a non-profit.
    .
    At a bus stop in a poor neighborhood near Boston I lived in, I watched an old Russian man cry as he saw a homeless man sleeping on the street. It disgusted and repulsed him. He said that he saw many ills of communism he would never wish on anybody, but, found the sight of a homeless man so foreign and repulsive that he couldn’t help but cry.
    .
    No, I do not cry.
    .
    I do not cry for people asking for lower and lower taxes, either.
    .
    If it is to open doors with more competition in the labor markets or to feed, clothe and house those unable, stop your rich boy crying and just pay your fair share of taxes.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I don’t even care if I am on the right thread or not, but, you are a conservative projecting again when you said that we opposed both wars and did so because of Bush.
    .
    No, extremely few oppose Afghanistan and I was eager to join the Army to fight in Afghanistan.
    .
    Because the Boston Globe, the New York Times and many other good news sources said that Bush’s claims are highly doubtful due to the UN sending inspectors again and again finding nothing that we opposed the Iraq was an only the Iraq War.
    .
    Bush’s mishandling of not regulating Wall Street to protect investor’s money and with it our jobs as well as attacking a Iraq for no reasonable reason is why we hated the presidency of Dubbya not the other way around.
    .
    When Bob Dole proposed this very same health care reform and when Mittens Romney passed this very same health care reform, Republicans were standing up and cheering.
    .
    When Obama gets it past, because you hated that he beat McCain/Palin you are infuriated by the very same thing your own party’s mainstream candidates proposed.
    .
    You have the matter of Bush backwards. He Fd up again and again and we got more and more ashamed of him the more he Fd up including Katrina. Former president Bill Clinton was with refugees before Dubbya could bring himself to stop cutting brush at his ranch (which he bought shortly before running for president with cattle he rented) to even look at it.
    .
    Sure, it was funny the way Clinton said “I feel your pain” but he did so when the Mississippi river had overflowed standing next to the National guard and being a force to scare every single emergency relief person into doing their job and doing it well, which they did far more than with Katrina.

  • 53_3

    …”Black Community” votes for Democrats is my fault????
    .
    Did I say it was your fault? I don’t think I ever said that.
    .
    “If only I hadn’t missed the point, they would vote Republican??? That is astounding! I had no idea I was so important!”
    .
    See above. Also, see the last sentence in my original post at 2.2!

    “BTW, talking about black people and alluding to metaphorical “bottles” sounds a little racist to me. Maybe you should check yourself for racist tendencies.”
    .
    You will have to explain this one to me. It seems that you don’t understand the metaphorical “message in a bottle” concept, do you? Did you mix that up with something else? I know I didn’t.
    .
    “Hey, just for a laugh, why don’t you tell us all why you think that the overwhelming majority of African American voters vote for democrats? I’d love to learn from your wisdom.”
    .
    This is very easy, and for starters, you might be astonished to find that the Black Community is roughly 40% conservative, give or take. If your peers were to wise up and stop the demonizing that they spew every day, and actually open yourselves up to ideas – conservative ideas – from outside the box built by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, you would be splitting that vote – nearly 7,000,000 voters with us.
    .
    But, you and your peers are too deeply wedded to the idea that conservatism must include that steady stream of hate spewing from many of your leaders to try to effect a change.
    .
    “ps. Please try to use proper punctuation. It will help me to understand your remarks. Statement/questions like, “But can you now that you’ve displayed your brilliant deductive powers, how about a little strong inductive logic?” really don’t do you any favors
    .
    I’m not trying to do me any favors, I’m trying to do you a favor. You are definitely not very smart.
    .
    But one thing I’ve learned over the years is that you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink…

  • jackhammer69

    Now, talk about assumptions!
    .
    I did that on purpose, remember? To show you how it feels. What do you think?
    .

    Russians and other people from former Communist countries who find our lack of public health care a publicly funded higher education frightening and barbaric.
    .
    Yeah, my ex-communists friends make the best pro-health care arguments I’ve heard. Much better than the Americans that just want a handout.
    .
    However, they also tell stories of getting dental surgery without anesthesia, because there wasn’t money for it in the system.
    .
    NYC is the safest major city in America.

    .
    But not because of the gun laws. Because of an overall crack down on crime that generally works.
    .
    As argued in the recent supreme court case regarding Chicago’s anti-handgun laws, those laws don’t work. They sound nice in theory; if you are naive and think the world can be made fair if we just take away enough freedom.
    .
    The fact is that criminals, by definition, do not obey the law. So passing laws against gun ownership only stops law abiding people from owning guns. Criminals don’t care what the law says. They are criminals!
    .
    I know police and prosecuters say that the handgun ban gives them more reasons to search suspected gang members.
    .
    Fine. But two wrongs don’t make a right. Just because society is so F’ed up that we have teenagers prowling the streets with handguns, killing and robbing innocent people, doesn’t mean we need to screw it up more by taking away everyone’s freedom to protect themselves from those thugs. Maybe if we could live in a world free of guns I would support gun control. But as long as we live in a violent, deadly world, I want access to an equalizer. And I want every sane, law abiding citizen to have the same access.
    .

    When you were a little boy, did you say, “Wow, when I grow up, I want to pay for a doctor’s visit.” No?

    .
    No. But I also didn’t say I wanted to work 50 hours a week, spend most of my time worrying about regulations, inspections, the EPA, auditors, employment laws, obtuse contracts, export regulations, safety regulations, and, in my spare time, try to supervise over 50 people (including a foreman and 4 line leaders), and try to supervise a 2-man sales team that is brining in over $400,000.00 a month in revenue.
    .
    What do I do? I work for a major recycling company. I do more to help the environment in 1 day than you will do in your lifetime. We recycle about 5 million pounds of waste every month at my facility alone.
    .
    Guess I shouldn’t have told you that yet? I should have waited for you to start calling me anti-environment or something.
    .
    When I was a little boy, I wanted to grow up to be an author or movie producer. in my spare time, I still work towards that goal. I’ve made about $25,000 off my creative writing in the past 10 years. I also recently donated a short film script to a small production company. They will film it this summer. So, I haven’t accomplished my dream yet, but I’m still working on it.
    .
    What did you want to be when you grew up?
    .
    What do you do with your spare time, Pat?
    .
    By the way, this time I’m spending with you also has value to me. Its another form of creative writing.
    .
    .
    Have you ever said as an adult or as a child that you were too ill to work that day?
    .
    So, paying for doctors is not the pleasure one has from working such as buying a car or having a pleasant apartment/ house.


    .
    Yes. but it shouldn’t be free, lest it be abused. The high costs that are built into the system need to be changed. Obviously those people who can’t afford it should have some assistance. But that is a very small portion of the population. And would be smaller still if we could bring costs down.

    .
    Furthrmore, now some people who will now have insurance don’t need it and don’t even want it. But now they are forced to have it.
    .
    Why? Because liberals know what’s best for everyone!
    .
    When I was in my early 20s I could have had health insurance from my employer, but I chose not to because I was healthy and young and smart (i.e. no drinking and driving, etc). So I kept the money and saved for school. I would not have liked it if the Government forced me to buy health care or fined me for not buying it.
    .
    Insurance companies are a big part of the problem. The fact that health care is done like a business at all is a big part of the problem. I can tell you horror stories about my days at the Lab. You would not belive the things health care companies do in the name of “production” and “profit.”
    .
    Health care should not be done like it is at all. But Obama’s “fix” really doesn’t do anything but pump more money into a system that is already terribly broken.
    .
    It is a means to work.
    .
    The same goes for higher education (in addition to k through 12).

    .
    I get it. And I don’t disagree with your premise. I disagree with the solutions you think we need.
    .
    Instead of thinking about what other handouts and laws we can come up with every time we see a problem, lets think about why we have these problems in the first place and try to figure out freedom oriented solutions.
    .
    The truth about the cost of college is that it is partly tied to the high demand that has come about from a left wing agenda that states that everyone should go to college. .
    .
    Its the same thing that caused the recent housing collapse that lead to the whole market crash. Liberals think everyone should have the opportunity to go to college and everyone should have the opportunity to own a home.
    .
    No. The hard truth of the matter is that there are people in this world who don’t belong on a college campus (like gang members). This idea that everyone should go to a four year college has also caused a shortage of students going to trade schools.
    .

    .
    Likewise, there are people who really don’t make enough money to buy the house they want to buy. There are people the banks shouldn’t have lent to. But the Clintions pressured tem to relax lending standards because they believed in the liberal, naive pipe dream that “everyone should own a home.”
    .
    To this day Clinton still tries to take credit for increasing home ownership in America. Yeah… thanks Bill.
    .
    See what I mean? He’s smart and he means well. But he didn’t think far enough ahead.
    .

    How about regulations governing how mortgages must be so that the one taking the mortgage can fully understand beneath their enthusiasm that rates may go beyond their means?

    .
    I strongly support simplification in all contracts and legal documents. In a country ruled by laws, one should not need an 8 year degree to understand the law. The law should be simple and plan enough for an average person to understand…. and you already know what I think of averge Americans.
    .
    BTW, I’ve got quite a bit of experience with the law too. Took a couple classes in college, I have a lawyer to help me run my business, and years ago, one well known clothing company tried to sue me for millions of dollars. I won, of course… but that’s a story for another day. The point is, the law is far too complicated and is perverted and used by evil people to intimidate and ruin lives. It pisses me off almost as much as liberals do.
    .
    Regulation is inherently bad?

    .
    I didn’t say that.
    .
    Many regulations are onerous and redundant and expensive. I am right now helping my employer comply with a certain Data management regulation. Compliance is purely voluntary (which is one step away from being mandatory). But the cost is over $60,000.
    .

    Government regulation that is needed is often not enforced well enough, and to compensate for that, the left wants more regulatory boards, more inspectors, more agencies and more cost.
    .
    A certain amount of financial regulation is needed. Certainly. But I don’t have enough first hand knowledge or experience with the financial industry to develop an informed opinion on it (though I’m starting to get involved with it in my spare time). I could repeat what I hear analysts say, but then I’d be as bad as you and most other Americans who just repeat talking points. .
    .
    When public goods such as education, law enforcement, fire, higher education and health care are not funded publicly, then you have a suboptimal result.

    .
    Law enforcement is overrated and I disagree about higher education. Though I do agree with you that the primary education needs drastic improvement. What about utilities? Internet access? Cable? day care? gas money? massages? Where do we stop?
    .
    When people think things are free, they don’t value them.
    .
    If you want to know more about optimal results, study econ because I am not going to explain economics of government to a know-it-all.
    .
    I have studied a little econ. I was a lot of common sense. No need for you to tell me more things I already know.
    .

  • crhoads62

    lets try imagine for a minute that the democrat party is the socialist party or even if you wish a the communist party. should not be hard. how about a rose by any other name is still a rose. I remember obama was giving a speech and he tried to undermine people that were saying that he and many in his administration were socialist. he pointed to someone and said. “look at that gentlemen, does he look like a socialist? so, what does a socialist look like then? i always assumed they have a different governing ideology.

  • shepherdwong

    “…I have participated in a few tea party rallies and these people are NOT voting for the democrats. A fairly large percentage of these people identified themselves as independents (myself included) and centrist. Massachusetts is a good example of where these votes are going to go.”
    .
    Yeah, we know where the Teatards’ votes are going because you’re Republicans. You’re just lying about it because to admit that you voted twice for President Ignoramus and his psychopathic sidekick would prove that your political choices and beliefs are just too idiotic to be taken seriously.

  • jackhammer69

    I don’t even care if I am on the right thread or not, but, you are a conservative projecting again when you said that we opposed both wars and did so because of Bush.
    .
    No, extremely few oppose Afghanistan and I was eager to join the Army to fight in Afghanistan.
    .
    Because the Boston Globe, the New York Times and many other good news sources said that Bush’s claims are highly doubtful due to the UN sending inspectors again and again finding nothing that we opposed the Iraq was an only the Iraq War.

    .
    God. And I thought we were making progress, pat.

    .
    The supposed reason we went into Iraq was because Saddam had thrown out the weapons inspectors, which, in fact, he had. Bush tried to argue that meant that Saddam must have WMDs. The real reason we went into Iraq (the 2nd time) was a need for a new regional geopolitical strategy. Sept 11 caused us to realize that we were in a new era, and cold war strategies didn’t work anymore. Containment is not a good strategy for the War on Terror.
    .
    I love how people who think we shouldn’t have gone into Iraq in 2003 seem to think that everything was just fine in Iraq before we invaded.
    .
    Remember what I said before about the stained blue dress?
    .
    How many Iraqi children died in the 1990s because of our stupid, selfish behavior?
    .
    I also love how people think that we invaded Iraq because stupid republicans thought Saddam had something to do with Sept .11.
    .
    Do you know Al Gore says 60% of Americans still believe that we invaded Iraq because Saddam had something to do with 9/11? Try reading up on some political science before you try to figure why we do the things we do.
    .
    It was the right thing to do and should have been done a lot sooner.
    .
    Bush was stupid for trying to make it over WMD. I tried to tell him not to do that. “If you do that, and we go in there and don’t find any, you will look like a liar.” I said. But he didn’t listen. (he doesn’t seem to hear me through the TV)
    .
    No, extremely few oppose Afghanistan and I was eager to join the Army to fight in Afghanistan.
    .
    Right. That’s why the far left supports Obama’s troop surge in Afghanistan now…. or to quote some left wing commentators on MSNBC, “I don’t understand why he’s doing this!”
    .
    Good for you for joining the Army.

    .
    as well as attacking a Iraq for no reasonable reason

    .
    The fact that liberals can’t see a reasonable reason for invading Iraq is one of the reasons I think liberals are stupid.
    .
    Was everything ok in Iraq before 2003? How often were we bombing them? What was the infant mortality rate? Unemployment rate? What was Saddam doing to his own people? Were Saddam’s government and court systems fair? Was the Oil for Food Program working? Was our policy of containment working, or was it making things worse?
    .
    If containment is a cold war strategy that is not helping in this new war on Terror, then we need to stop it. But we couldn’t just pull out of Iraq and leave Saddam in power. So we had to do something that we should have done 10 years earlier.
    .
    Meanwhile a whole generation of Iraqi children were lost.
    .
    I know too many people that are from Iraq and who lived under Saddam to think that it was the wrong thing to do. Not to mention the geopolitical reasons for doing it that I’ve already covered.
    .
    But I’m sure you can’t understand that.
    .
    When Obama gets it past, because you hated that he beat McCain/Palin you are infuriated by the very same thing your own party’s mainstream candidates proposed.

    .

    God would you quit characterizing me as a Republican!.
    .
    I didn’t/don’t support Dole, McCain, or Palin. And I don’t like Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity either. I do like them better than I like Rachel Madcow, Keith Overbender or you, though.
    .
    Dole’s Health Care plan was nothing but a Republican show horse, stitched together to counter Democrat health care arguments. It was a farce. I can’t believe you fell for that.
    .
    I really didn’t care that Obama won. I could see it coming well in advance and I was willing to give him a fair chance. I really don’t think Clinton was that bad of a guy either, just a little misguided. Clinton was clearly a better choice than Dole, though I didn’t vote for either (I voted for a 3rd party). And I am not against Obama just because of his political party. I’m not like you, Pat. I don’t make those kinds of sterotyped generalizations.
    .
    I form my opinions on what I see people actually say and do.
    .
    Please stop labeling me as some kind of Republican that is fit to be ridiculed. That’s not me.
    .
    You have the matter of Bush backwards. He Fd up again and again and we got more and more ashamed of him
    .
    Ashamed??
    .
    Really?
    .
    I thought he was funny!
    .
    Sure he was dumb, but the people around him were smart (Condi Rice, for example). There was no fear of us actually doing anything too stupid. He was just a mouthpiece.
    .
    Bush didn’t cause Katrina. The left likes to blame him for a lot more than he actually had anything to do with.
    .
    I still don’t see you scoring any points, Pat.
    .
    Could you please try harder?

  • shepherdwong

    “I thought he was funny!”
    .
    Yes, the eight million freshly unemployed Americans and millions of innocent Iraqis and Afghans who’s lives have been destroyed by President Mouthpiece are probably splitting their sides with laughter as we speak. The ones who are still alive, I mean. Dipsh!t.

  • jackhammer69

    Your concepts sound like they are from the Cato institute, not from life experiences.
    .
    Every time you post you have a new label to try to put on me and an associated insult or two.
    .
    If you’ve had extensive life experience in the 1990s onward, you will see highly intelligent people (most often immigrants from countries which do not provide free higher education blah, blah, blah,- who read on their own but do not have tuition money and are working now, as young people to try and make sure that, if not themselves, their children or grandchildren will have such opportunities.
    .
    Yeah. I know. This isn’t the Promised Land. It is the Land of Opportunity, located in the Real World. If they wanted a free education, they should have emigrated to Western Europe or Canada.
    .
    .
    The few instances of government “handouts” are for those crippled, blind, deaf, very mentally ill or who have one or more children without the skills needed to earn enough to feed, clothe and house them….blah, blah, blah.
    ,
    Yeah. I know. people who need help should be helped, but in a way that is cost effective and that actually helps them, rather than fostering a lifestyle of dependency.
    .
    If it is to open doors with more competition in the labor markets or to feed, clothe and house those unable, stop your rich boy crying and just pay your fair share of taxes
    .
    “Rich boy?”
    .
    Didn’t you say you were a Manhattan real estate agent? I bet you make more than me.
    .
    Seems you are constantly obsessed with finding some pejorative to call me.
    .
    Why?

  • jackhammer69

    Yes, the eight million freshly unemployed Americans and millions of innocent Iraqis and Afghans who’s lives have been destroyed by President Mouthpiece are probably splitting their sides with laughter as we speak. The ones who are still alive, I mean. Dipsh!t.

    .
    I’m not going to repat myself again in this same thread about Iraq or Afghanistan. Read the whole post and learn.
    .
    Bush didn’t cause the Econimic crisis and Iraq is better off today than it was in 2003.
    .
    You blow hole.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    1) Externalities and the free rider problem are two of the major way economists determine what should have government subsidies, etc, and which should not.
    .
    a) For externalities with some variation, causes an increase in income, that increase in income circulates $2.50 for every extra $1 a worker earns and, therefore, including the opportunity costs of not working, 60% of the benefits of education go to the overall well being of third parties and, therefore, should be subsidized at 60% total costs so that there will be an adjusted equilibrium reflecting total benefit to society. It is the same reasoning why pollution should be taxed. The same is true of health. Health produces money. The money get circulated around through expenditures, then this, too, is worthy of subsidy.
    .
    b) The free rider problem would explain things like law enforcement.
    .
    Please note, these aren’t my own ideas. This is how economists have been operating for about seventy years now.
    .
    2) I have a relative who was a prosecutor and the correlation from gun control to gun violence is very obvious. Need money in NYC? Then point out who has an illegal gun and you can collect a reward. (I believe over $1K). Basically 100% of all illegal guns were bought from dealers illegally in states where gun control laws are looser or from a legal gun owner a little light on cash who wants to double his money. In NYC a huge portion of the guns can be traced to Virginia gun dealers. The more accountable legal gun owners are held. the fewer illegal guns there are and the fewer gun deaths there are. The correlation is very clear.
    .
    2) For people over using doctors because it is free, then we should have the lowest per capitia health care costs not the highest since you seem to believe that everybody wants to spend all day at the doctors.
    .
    Also note that since these are the same insurance companies that they were before, then the 85% with health insurance must be spending all day chatting with doctors for fun right now and we will just add 17% more people chatting with doctors.
    .
    There is no proof that hypochondria is price sensitive. If it cost four times as much as it did right before HCR or is free, only people with hypochondria will spend all day at the doctor by choice.
    .
    3) If you want regulations better enforced, more money needs to be spent on enforcement. Conservatives oppose this when possible because they want taxes low no matter who it hurts. Additional regulations to compensate for unenforced regulation is something I have not seen any examples of.
    .
    4) I know exactly when and why the weapons inspectors were thrown out. They were called in by US lead concerns despite previous acceptance that there were no WMD. They began to insist to enter some of Husein’s private palaces and were refused. Except for England, no other country observing the same intelligence we had believed it meant that Husein had WMD. GWB had something like 17 CIA inquires into if Husein was involved with 9/11 and all came up empty handed. It was obviously on the Dubbya agenda to find anything on Husein and when the new flavor of the day was WMD and nobody besides England would come along in a large force, it was clear that our counterparts around the world without the huge political pressure Dubbya was putting on them to come up with a particular conclusion were finding the opposite conclusion.
    .
    It was a theory that only the US was smart and the rest of the world combined wad dumb.
    .
    Dubbya was dumb.
    .
    As for me, I wanted to be stock broker when I was very young and later to be an attorney. By the time I wanted to be an attorney, I knew that the hours were about 60 to 75 hours per week since I had a relative doing it.
    .
    By age 20 I knew that I wanted to work union side labor law.
    .
    I am a 39 year old commercial realtor eager to completely my education as soon as possible to be a labor attorney.
    .
    I never had wild fantasies like you did.
    .
    To be frank, I think the world of movies would be less interesting than law for me.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    In high school I was photographed by a talent agency which paid for the pictures on the chance I could be an actor, but never cared about that.
    .
    I got an A on creative writing piece in college and my teacher wanted me to submit it to be published, but, I took no interest in that unless it was going to pay tuition.
    .
    I just want the chance to put in my 70 hours per week practicing labor law, support a wife and children with four weeks vacation a year, raise them in NYC and hopefully not have children at such an old age that I die before they graduate from college.
    .
    With all of this time seeking to completely education, I’ve given up on the idea of retirement. I expect to drop dead at my desk when I am in my 80s.
    .
    Spending, by the time I get the law degree, twenty five years seeking it, I hope to spend 50 years or until death practicing it, whatever happens first.
    .
    Obviously my agenda is higher education.
    .
    My family had wonderful lifespans into our 90s except for my father, so I do not worry about health care until I become a father or turn 50.
    .
    The cost of a good education is a problem crippling our country’s potential.
    .
    People like you wanting to lock the door behind you when yo do well is what is going drive America into a third world country while you write fiction.
    .
    Certainly your so-called facts are fiction.

  • jackhammer69

    I know exactly when and why the weapons inspectors were thrown out. blah, blah, blah.
    .
    Dubbya was dumb.

    .
    Yeah. That’s what I said.

    .
    The WMD thing was just a pretence.
    .
    He should have just been honest and said “Hey, we are in a new era now. These old Cold War tactics are not working. What we have been doing to Iraq for the past 10 years is wrong. It also doesn’t help us in this new era of Terrorism. We need to do something.
    .
    Instead, he tried to make a big argument about WMD, that everyone knew was a ploy, and when it didn’t pan out for him, he looked like a liar.
    .
    He should have just told the truth from the beginning.
    .
    the correlation from gun control to gun violence is very obvious. Need money in NYC? Then point out who has an illegal gun and you can collect a reward. (I believe over $1K).

    .
    In other words the state is spending millions, buying up an endless supply of illegal guns? To what end? To keep the gun manufacturer’s in business? And you think this is good?
    .
    NY also has some serious budget problems. Maybe they should rethink this policy. I’m sure it doesn’t have as much to do with the crime rate as some of their other initiatives.
    .
    I’m all for stopping illegal gun ownership, but not if “illegal” is defined as “No law abiding citizen may own a gun at all.”
    .
    As Michael Moore points out in Bowling for Columbine, Canada has a rate of gun ownership that is roughly equal with the US. But their rate of gun violence is much less? Why? Are the guns in Canada less dangerous?
    .

    Clearly, there is not a correlation between gun ownership and rates of violent crime. There is a correlation between POVERTY and violent crime.
    .
    Wise up.
    .
    Additional regulations to compensate for unenforced regulation is something I have not seen any examples of.

    .
    I’ve heard complaining of it in the financial sector just recently, and I see it at my job regularly.
    .

    The cost of a good education is a problem crippling our country’s potential.
    .
    I agree. High Schools need to do much better (why is Obama against school vouchers, BTW???)

    People like you wanting to lock the door behind you when yo do well is what is going drive America into a third world country while you write fiction.
    .
    GOD quit projecting your skewed opinions of Republicans onto me!!
    .
    I do not want to close the door on education. The cost of a year at the local university is TWICE what it was just 10 years ago, when I was enrolled. That is insane and needs to be fixed.
    .

    There is no proof that hypochondria is price sensitive. If it cost four times as much as it did right before HCR or is free, only people with hypochondria will spend all day at the doctor by choice.
    .
    Sure, but I bet Munchausen by Proxey is.
    .
    It is common sense that the demand for health care will go up in the near future. I am not even going to debate that. There are also doctors saying they will leave the practice, which will reduce the supply.
    .
    I guess all we can do now is wait and see who’s right about that one.
    .
    The same is true of health. Health produces money.

    .
    Sure. I get that. So why do we need to send more money to Health Insurance companies, that really don’t provide any tangible benefit? Why can’t we have medical savings accounts? Why can’t we have better educational standards about healthy lifestyles?
    .
    Why does more government agencies, more taxes, and more laws have to be the answer? Can’t we improve people’s health without screwing up the system even more?
    .
    Health insurance companies are evil. They need to be removed from the economy and made illegal. People should save, with government assistance if needed, for their own health care. Costs of catastrophic illness and injury should be lower, and insured by the government. People who are incapable of helping themselves should be given the help they need.
    .
    Think about how much you spend on Health insurance Vs how much you use. Wouldn’t you be better off putting that money in a medical savings account for you and your family instead of paying the salaries of Insurance Company Executives or government bureaucrats?
    .
    Government isn’t the answer, Pat. You have the answers right between your ears.
    .
    One of the reasons health care costs so much is that 80% of people don’t pay for their own care. Someone else pays (government or some 3rd party insurance company.) When someone else pays for you, you don’t care how much it costs. So when the Hospital bills your insurance company $10,000 for one night in a hospital bed because you had to fart, you don’t really care. Its not your money.
    .
    If you cared, the hospital would have an incentive to lower their costs. Right now they don’t. They have every incentive to keep raising costs to bilk more money out of the insurance companies.
    .

    the fewer illegal guns there are and the fewer gun deaths there are.
    .
    Define “illegal.” In Chicago and DC, any handgun at all is considered illegal.

    .
    .

    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “..Iraq is better off today than it was in 2003..”
    .
    So, I guess Al Qada is Iraq is just a group formed to bring us flowers and candy?
    .
    Iraq 1968: King is overthrown by CIA backed Bathist Party (fiercely anti-communist).
    .
    1972 with CIA help, Husein takes lead position of Bathist Party and Iraq.
    .
    1979 War begins with with Iran. US sends big bucks and weapons.
    .
    1986 Saddam Husein is given the key to the City of Detroit in his assistance of Arabian Christians there.
    .
    1988, US sends money knowing that Husein was going to gas Kurds and gives it’s blessing.
    .
    1991 With US approval, Husein invades Kuwait.
    .
    Months later in 1991 (post communism) Bush Sr. changes his mind due to Saudi concerns and demands Kuwait return to independence.
    .
    Husein refuses.
    .
    Gulf War One: quick win but Kurds slaughtered again when in US motivated uprising.
    .
    1991 until 2003 mass malnutrition plagues country with hundreds of thousands who did not grow to proper height and who did not have full brain development due to malnutrition.
    .
    2003 until 2010: hundreds of thousands dead, plumbing and electricity destroyed being repaired from 2003 only completed in last couple of years.
    .
    If you were born in Germany, I bet you would be saying that Hitler did Europe a few favors in a “preemptive war”. (AKA war of aggression).

  • jackhammer69

    Did I say it was your fault? I don’t think I ever said that.
    .
    Hmmm. let’s see…
    .
    But can you now that you’ve displayed your brilliant deductive powers, how about a little strong inductive logic?
    .
    Tell me why?
    .
    Hint, er, actually two hints:
    .
    1. You totally missed the point

    .
    Yeah… It really looks to me like you are saying that the fact that I missed the point is one of the reasons why the black community votes for democrats.
    .
    from outside the box built by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, …

    .
    You are way behind in this conversation. I am not a Republican and I am not a Rush Limbaugh fan.
    .
    Try again.
    .
    But, you and your peers are too deeply wedded to the idea that conservatism must include that steady stream of hate spewing from many of your leaders to try to effect a change.
    .
    Read my other posts in this thread. Hate comes from the left as much or more so than it does from the right..
    .
    And I’m not wedded to conservatism. So far I’ve advocated government backed health care saving accounts, doing away with insurance companies, dramatically altering the schools, altering the health care system, altering the way laws are written, supporting gay marriage, and other positions that are usually associated with the left.

    .
    Telling me I’m not smart doesn’t make your poor grammar and feeble logic sound any better.
    .
    You are telling me that 40% of African Americans are conservative, but over half of them vote for democrats because they think conservatives are hateful?
    .
    I think there must be more to it than that.
    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    First, this is one of the worst years on record for commercial real estate. So, I know you made more than I did this year.
    .
    Second, the tax increase is for people making over 250,000 a year. So, if you are not earning that or expect to soon, you are acting against your own interests.
    .
    Third, school vouchers have not accomplished their goals. That is why they are not being continued. Often this is promoted despite not improvement due to how the religious right wants prayer in school after being gone for more than half a century.
    .
    Sixth, NYC is not buying back those guns, That is tip line money. When they find one, they usually find the whole gang’s guns – 10, 20, 50 or even 100. Nearly all of them come up I-95 from Virginia where they were bought legally but sold often in New Jersey to New York criminals..
    .
    Seventh, special types of security, university police, professional body guards and people who have businesses where they regularly carry cash may have legal guns in NYC so long as they have a clean criminal record.
    .
    Eighth, hunting riffle licensing in NYC is easy. Since almost no crime is done with large guns, (which is what Bowling for Columbine missed about Canada that they have more guns but almost no handguns). You, obviously, are not allowed to walk around with them and will have to go elsewhere in the state to go to a legal hunting ground or to one of a few firing ranges in the city.
    .
    “Clearly, there is not a correlation between gun ownership and rates of violent crime. There is a correlation between POVERTY and violent crime.”
    .
    The Great Depression also had one of the largest drop offs in crime nationwide.
    .
    Ninth, that, also, was when gun control was first enacted.
    .
    So, if violent crime is caused by poverty (as you claim is always the case) then gun control must have saved us from an unbelievable crime way in 1934.
    .
    Tenth, Munchhausen by Proxy is price sensative? You are saying that if it is cheap to you, or more likely, your woman would make your own children ill for entertainment, but not if it is expensive?
    .
    It’s not a personal insult if I say your concept is deranged.
    .
    Eleventh, Democrats wanted single payer since in many other countries this worked far better than any special savings account. Germans pay one third as much and live longer than Americans do as does the rest of the developed world. So, if you have a proven system beginning in1883 in Germany, why come up with ideas to make a profit off of it with a low chance of doing half as well?
    .
    Dumb idea!
    .
    If there is a car which gets 60 miles to the gallon, cost one third as much to buy andto maintain as a 20 mile per gallon car, why not mimic that when designing your own car based upon random guesses making sure that there are bigger profits for third parties?
    .
    If you don’t do that, then you do not reinvent the wheel for Health Care. You get as close as you can to the most successful system as possible and everybody is better off.
    .
    Like nearly all conservatives I see (maybe from different backgrounds and different POV than you) you are doing intellectual gymnastics to try and justify a conclusion you have in mind.
    .
    Debates are never won that way.
    .
    Much more importantly, truth is never discovered that way.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Jackhammer,
    .
    So far you have argued that taking control through a puppet government of Iraq, leading and financing a government that killed it’s own people with our money, demanding that it’s government loose face by having it exit conquered territory in a conquest we approved, then, when it does not blindly obey, fight it briefly, starve their poorest for twelve years, attack it, conquer it, kill hundreds of thousands of it’s people is good for Iraq.
    .
    You have argued that when it is cheap people start poisoning their own children to see a doctor more often.
    .
    You have argued that failure to regulate when the situation was overwhelmingly clear, Bush couldn’t regulate and it was not his fault that the unregulated markets collapsed.
    .
    You have argued that, despite colleges being too expensive no subsidies should be paid nor additional loans but should change by magic.
    .
    You have argued that when people are too poor to do anything but eat and have a bed to sleep in that they somehow have plenty of money for guns and start shooting one another regardless of how easy or difficult it is or the consequences of owning a gun are despite the fact that places with gun control have much lower gun murder rates than places without gun control.
    .
    You have argued that instead of taking a system functioning well since 1883 which provides far better health care at one third of the cost we should invent a new system to create new ways for corporate profits.
    .
    Now, you can say whatever you want about how you define yourself, but, you have been defending Republican failures and claiming the Democrats want government for the sake of having government despite dramatic evidence to the contrary.
    .
    Today’s conservatives tell people that doing nothing is the best thing. It comforts people. It, also, keeps the corporate donations rushing in to win election after election.
    .
    Dubbya went into Iraq from a lesson from his father: go into a war too long before the election and everybody forgets and elects a Democrat. Do so during a reelection campaign and win.
    .
    Bush went into Iraq as revenge for a very failed attempt against his father and to make sure that he and Republicans won again.
    .
    Perhaps not you, but, a party of the Republican lullaby is about global warming being untrue so that they can get plenty of donations from oil companies and about evolution being untrue so that they can get the 25% of Americans who read the bible literally to have get-out-the-vote campaigns for Republicans.
    .
    Democrats have been talking about complicated problems with complicated solutions and very often done all of the negotiation in-house with our own Blue Dog Democrats as proxies for the Republicans who were obstructionists.
    .
    The Tea party is all about promoting ignorance and the Republican lullaby.

  • jackhammer69

    1991 With US approval, Husein invades Kuwait
    .
    That is flat out wrong. As soon as he invaded, there was talk of war to stop him.I remember it clearly.
    .
    Even the Wikipedia knows that:
    “Within hours of the invasion, Kuwaiti and U.S. delegations requested a meeting of the UN Security Council, which passed Resolution 660, condemning the invasion and demanding a withdrawal of Iraqi troops.”

    .
    That falsehood makes me want to stop this conversation right here. And You say my facts are wrong?
    .
    You are clearly deluded.
    .
    Get your facts stright.

    Gulf War One: quick win but Kurds slaughtered again when in US motivated uprising.
    .
    Yes, that was terrible. I wish the left hadn’t obstructed Bush Sr. so much over that.
    .
    1991 until 2003 mass malnutrition plagues country with hundreds of thousands who did not grow to proper height and who did not have full brain development due to malnutrition.
    .
    Yeah. And whose fault was that?? Ours. And more precisely, Bill Clinton.He could have done something about that and never even tried. He was too worried about his poll numbers, and the public was too worried about his affairs.
    .
    If you were born in Germany, I bet you would be saying that Hitler did Europe a few favors in a “preemptive war”. (AKA war of aggression).
    .
    HEY!!
    .
    That’s not cool at all. Just because someone is born in Germany it does not make them a Nazi. That wasn’t even true in 1940.
    .

    News flash: the Nazis have more in common with the modern left than they do with the right.
    .
    How would you like a “managed economy” or some kind of “Economic third way?” Does that sound good? Hitler wanted that too. How about more police and more gun control? You know Hitler and Hillary Clinton are both on record saying “Our streets would be safer and our police more effective [if we had stricter gun control]”
    .
    Yeah. The Nazis sure had some effective police. Wouldn’t you like to have that here? Just give up your guns so they can kick in your door without getting shot.
    .
    Again, people on the left are stupid. They see pictures of Obama drawn like Hitler and they think that is stupid, since everybody know Nazis were racists.”How can Obama be like Hiter, he’s black!” They say. But they are missing the point. The Nazis weren’t just racist nationalists, they were also socialists!
    .
    The brutality and intimidation I’ve seen from left wing organizations over the past couple years also looks like Nazi activity of the late 1920s and early 1930s.
    .
    Busloads of Acorn supporters being brought from the east coast to the midwest to disrupt primaries and intimidate voters.
    .
    A 65 year old health care protester gets his finger bitten off after being verbally assaulted. http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-finger-bitten-rally,0,7135717.story
    .
    SEIU Attacks: White-Led Union Thugs Attack Black Conservative at St. Louis Town Hall Meeting (http://www.red-alerts.com/un-american-activities/seiu-attacks-white-led-union-thugs-attack-black-conservative-at-st-louis-town-hall-meeting/)
    .
    SEIU’s Latest Disgrace — Violent Attack on Michigan Meeting of Union Members and RNs (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deborah-burger/seius-latest-disgrace_b_96399.html)

    .
    And that’s just a few.
    .
    Notice that these are monolithic organizations that think they are the majority and want to attack and silence their opposition with intimidation and violence. It is the same thing the SA and the Nazis were doing.
    .
    Nazis and modern leftists also like to make laws that change certain people’s legal status, offering some people more protection under the law than others.
    .
    I’m not saying the left are Nazis. But I am saying they have more in common with them than most liberals realize.
    .

    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    First, the US ambassador to Iraq approved it days in advance and was not subject to reprimand. It will be difficult to find a link, therefore, we can deal without that relatively small bit of information.
    .
    Second, I do agree that leaving them starving was a terrible error for Clinton for eight of those twelve years, but, attacking them, to any sane person (considering the number of deaths) was worse and certainly did not solve problems. I did not say Democrats are always right, only that we should have been parachuting in food, not dropping bombs to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis. By 1991 if Husein flew a paper airplane into the no-fly zone we would have shot it down. We had multiple means of recognizance and found no sign of his weapons of mass destruction. It was also common knowledge (for NYT, Boston Globe and other newspaper readers) that Osama bin Laden had a price on Husein’s head and all Al Qada members caught entering Iraq (remember caught since we had Al Qada members here and we taught them how to fly and we are not pro-Al Qada) were executed.
    .
    Third, there were some amazing stats on how many American deaths were due to right wing groups including: Joe Stack, Eric Rudolph and, of course, Timothy McVeigh.
    .
    Fourth, one of the videos I was shown (perhaps this is another incident) a black SEIU member was in a fight with a black conservative and, by the time the camera started filming, the conflict with no obvious injuries had both sides saying the other hit first. This is non-racial and could just as easily been that the black SEIU member was attacked by the black conservative as vice versa. It was unclear at best.
    .
    Fifth, Canada, England, France, Germany, Japan… all of the other developed countries except Switzerland have tighter gun control on handguns than the US, have a small fraction of the gun violence and none of totalitarian governments.
    .
    Sixth, like the Nazis (not that similar, but there are similarities) the Tea Party have been sending out lies about 16,500 IRS agents, arrests for not buying health insurance, forcing doctors to perform abortions, a tax increase for those making under $250,000 per year and death panels just to name a few. Liberals and Democrats (I would call the Democrats the moderate party and the Republicans to the right with, basically, no liberal party in the US) have not made up such stories.
    .
    Seventh, like Nazis had begun attacking people on the street, Tea Party members orally disturb public events and are even instructed to spread out to exaggerate their numbers. This is awful for any kind of debate or means to come to any reasonable conclusions.
    .
    Eighth, employers are given a choice to pay higher taxes or, to remain at the same level of taxation submit a form showing that they have paid for their employees health coverage. Individuals will be asked to sign a form from their employers stating that they received their insurance card. This is the same employer who tells this employee what to do day in and day out. The employee has no obligation to do anything with their insurance coverage and, therefore, there is no imaginable way that their liberty has been taken from them. So Tea Party members who are earning under $250,000 per year and not self employed have been bamboozled into into defending lower taxes and/or a lack of health insurance for themselves or others. This type of Orwellian deception (George Orwell, AKA Eric Blair was a Social Democrat far to the left of the modern Democratic Party) is typical of totalitarian organizations and atypical of American politics.
    .
    Ninth, as global warming is accepted by 85% of all climatologists, the stimulus package fits the economic theories of 80% of economists. So, as you most likely are not a global warming denier, the Tea Party’s objection to the stimulus package is a denial of decades of Economic theory. This is, also, common among totalitarian groups and rare in Western politics.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Mycohile,
    .
    In a dead market and self employed I do whatever my boss (me) feels is best.
    .
    This is, also, the only blog I am on.
    .
    You, absolutely, do not come across at all arrogant and, I do plea guilty for seeking an adrenalin rush from this. It perks me up much better than coffee and doesn’t prevent me from falling asleep (as too much caffeine would).
    .
    Since you do not directly say often that you oppose or support particular policies and have longer entries than most, I did not get what you are politically.
    .
    You gave me an idea thought: Sell an Island to Libertarians as a real estate agent! (LOL – I do not have the connections to do so nor would I ever fake any political ideology or religion for economic gain, so, don’t take that one seriously).
    .
    You’ve been great to have around and, if this isn’t your kind of blog, I hope you find one which better suits you.
    .
    Best of luck in everything.

  • jackhammer69

    The Great Depression also had one of the largest drop offs in crime nationwide.

    .
    Absolutely not true!
    .
    Property Crime increases when the economy goes down.
    .
    See here: http://law.jrank.org/pages/2158/Statistics-Historical-Trends-in-Western-Society-Criminality-in-twentieth-century.html
    .
    I can’t believe you said that. Only an idiot would think crime went down during the depression. Why would you think that even makes sense?

    .
    You have argued that when it is cheap people start poisoning their own children to see a doctor more often.

    .
    No I didn’t. I said people with a predisposition to do that will do it more if its free. My point was that your use of hypochondriacs as an example is flawed. hypochondriacs believe there is something wrong with them. So they will seek a doctor, regardless of the price. Of course there is no change in the statistic you cite. That’s common sense!
    .
    So far you have argued that taking control through a puppet government of Iraq, leading and financing a government that killed it’s own people with our money, demanding that it’s government loose face by having it exit conquered territory in a conquest we approved, then, when it does not blindly obey, fight it briefly, starve their poorest for twelve years, attack it, conquer it, kill hundreds of thousands of it’s people is good for Iraq.

    .
    God I am so sick of that inane argument.
    .

    If we knew then what we know now, maybe we would have done thing differently 30 years ago. But we didn’t did we?
    .
    All we can do now is try to fix the mess our fathers and grandfathers go us into.
    .
    You have argued that, despite colleges being too expensive no subsidies should be paid nor additional loans but should change by magic.

    .
    I did not say anything about magic. I said liberals need to realize that college isn’t for everyone, thereby reducing the demand and the price.
    .
    I also think state governments should fund the state colleges more than they do. But we are past that point in this conversation.
    .
    you have been defending Republican failures and claiming the Democrats want government for the sake of having government despite dramatic evidence to the contrary.
    .
    What evidence?
    .

    You have argued that when people are too poor to do anything but eat and have a bed to sleep in that they somehow have plenty of money for guns and start shooting one another

    .
    No I didn’t. Read it again and think.
    .
    You have argued that instead of taking a system functioning well since 1883 which provides far better health care at one third of the cost we should invent a new system to create new ways for corporate profits.

    .
    1’3 the cost of what?
    .
    If you think Health insurance companies have done a good job since 1883, you are sadly mistaken. And Medical Savings accounts are not new ideas.
    .
    And I have repeatedly called for eliminating health care corporations. Those two ideas are mutually exclusive.
    .
    .
    Today’s conservatives tell people that doing nothing is the best thing.
    .
    I haven’t heard anyone say doing nothing is the best thing.
    .
    Dubbya went into Iraq from a lesson from his father: go into a war too long before the election and everybody forgets and elects a Democrat. Do so during a reelection campaign and win.

    .
    Did you hear Bush SR tell Bush Jr. that, or are you just assuming again? Is that some principle of foreign policy that I’ve never heard before?

    .
    Bush went into Iraq as revenge for a very failed attempt against his father and to make sure that he and Republicans won again.

    .
    That is one of the stupidest things liberals say.
    .
    Yeah, I guess it wasn’t about geopolitics, or the future of the region, or doing the right thing, or our relationships in the middle east. Or the opened ended policy of containment we had. It was just a family thing.
    .
    Do you really believe that?
    .

    about evolution being untrue so that they can get the 25% of Americans who read the bible literally to have get-out-the-vote campaigns for Republicans

    .
    Oh my god. Stop it already. You sound ridiculous.
    .

    Democrats have been talking about complicated problems with complicated solutions

    .
    I have yet to see democrats come up with a complicated solution for anything. They seem to like simple solutions. (more taxes, more agencies, more handouts)

  • jackhammer69

    Seventh, like Nazis had begun attacking people on the street, Tea Party members orally disturb public events and are even instructed to spread out to exaggerate their numbers.
    .
    Yeah. That’s almost the same.
    .
    Fifth, Canada, England, France, Germany, Japan… all of the other developed countries except Switzerland have tighter gun control on handguns than the US, have a small fraction of the gun violence and none of totalitarian governments.
    .
    Yeah. I know. You aren’t thinking about it enough.
    .
    Eighth, employers are given a choice to pay higher taxes or, to remain at the same level of taxation submit a form showing that they have paid for their employees health coverage.

    .
    And if you don’t know what’s wrong with that, you haven’t been paying attention.
    .
    Liberals and Democrats have not made up such stories

    .
    PLEASE!
    .
    You just said yourself that we attacked Iraq because Bush was mad about an assassination attempt on his father?
    .
    Liberals haven’t been saying that? That’s not a lie?
    .
    You have spent the majority of your time in this thread trying to insult and ridicule and spread disinformation. But now you say Liberals don’t lie?
    .
    Great double speak, Pat.

    .

  • jackhammer69

    Second, I do agree that leaving them starving was a terrible error for Clinton for eight of those twelve years

    .
    Thank you.

    but, attacking them, to any sane person (considering the number of deaths) was worse and certainly did not solve problems.
    .
    That’s not what my Kurdish friends think.
    .
    We try hard to minimize civilian casualities. If you’ve really been in the army in the past 10 years, you know that.
    .

    I did not say Democrats are always right, only that we should have been parachuting in food, not dropping bombs to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis.
    .
    That’s another liberal naive pipe dream. “If we had just dropped food, things would have been ok.”
    .
    Reality check: We were sending food and medicine to them. It was not getting to the people. You think if we had started a massive air drop of food the Republican Guard wouldn’t have rounded it all up?
    .
    Think about these things before you say them, pat.
    .
    Really.

  • jackhammer69

    First, the US ambassador to Iraq approved it days in advance and was not subject to reprimand. It will be difficult to find a link, therefore, we can deal without that relatively small bit of information.
    .
    Guess I’ll just have to take your word for it. Just like when you said the Crime Rate went down during the Depression. Or when you said you never use the word “dude.” or when you said I was homophobic. Or when you said liberals don’t lie. Or when you said Bush invaded Iraq over a personal vendetta.
    .

    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Oddly enough, juvenile delinquency rates followed a very different path during the 1930s and 1940s (Glaser and Rice). They rose during prosperity and fell during depression.”
    .
    That is your article.
    .
    The Great Depression was in the 1930s and this was a time when crime, instead, went down, just like I said. The correlation is incomplete.
    .
    The New York Times knew that there were unlikely WMD By February 15, 2003:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/15/world/threats-responses-baghdad-hussein-issues-decree-ban-weapons-mass-destruction.html?scp=2&sq=Weapons+of+Mass+Destruction&st=nyt
    .
    If your news source didn’t, don’t praise the attack of another country.
    .

    You just said yourself that we attacked Iraq because Bush was mad about an assassination attempt on his father?
    .
    “Liberals haven’t been saying that? That’s not a lie?”r
    .
    It’s a hypothesis. look through NYT archives and you will know that many knew that it was not about WMD nor about terrorism since both were easily known to the rest of the world.
    .
    If it was not about WMD (which it was not) about terrorism (which it was not) then it had to be about Bush Sr and/or getting reelected unless Dubbya was so dumb that he might have accidentally invaded Sweden on the way to Afghanistan.
    .
    As for humanitarian aid, it was done poorly and through the Iraqi government.
    .
    “Fifth, Canada, England, France, Germany, Japan… all of the other developed countries except Switzerland have tighter gun control on handguns than the US, have a small fraction of the gun violence and none of totalitarian governments.
    .
    Yeah. I know. You aren’t thinking about it enough.”
    .
    Federal gun control legislation has been around since 1934. I have no idea what you expect me to think about when many very successful open societies, also, have gun control and have much less crime. Do you mean we will begin to say “ay” after our sentences like Canadians supposedly do or get English accents? What is wrong with those countries? What do you believe is different about the US?
    .
    “Eighth, employers are given a choice to pay higher taxes or, to remain at the same level of taxation submit a form showing that they have paid for their employees health coverage.

    .
    And if you don’t know what’s wrong with that, you haven’t been paying attention.”
    .
    What is, according to you, so terrible about, for all practical purposes a tax incentive to get employers to get insurance for their employees? It gets money spent and stimulates the economy.
    .

    You have spent the majority of your time in this thread trying to insult and ridicule and spread disinformation. But now you say Liberals don’t lie?”
    .
    You claimed that liberals were against the Iraq war to spite Bush when in reality from the beginning ant-war protesters were only opposing the Iraq War (a tiny number about Afghanistan – but they were not always aligned since those happened two years apart it is easy to tell who was who) said that there is nothing in Iraq to save us from. No WMD and no Al Qada.
    .
    You saw anti-war protesters and just guessed that they were against both wars and either had a bad news source or ignored the protester’s explanations.
    .
    WMD and Al Qada in Iraq: Bush lies.
    .
    The items above about Tea Party claims: Palin and friends lying.
    .
    As for national health care read this:
    http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?month=04&year=2005&base_name=health_of_nations_germany
    .
    It was one third for some items, but, overall Germans pay about 55% of what Americans do and live longer.
    .
    That is truth.
    .
    I can not say that I know why Bush did what he did, but I can tell you that unless the CIA knew less than the newspapers (incredibly unlikely) and Valerie Plame was just a coincidence that it was not for the reasons he said it was.
    .
    You’ve swallowed so many lies that when you hear the truth, you do not believe it, Jackhammer.

  • jackhammer69

    “Oddly enough, juvenile delinquency rates followed a very different path during the 1930s and 1940s (Glaser and Rice). They rose during prosperity and fell during depression.”
    .
    That is your article.
    .
    The Great Depression was in the 1930s and this was a time when crime, instead, went down, just like I said.

    [sigh]
    .
    .Below is a paste of the whole statement, including the small piece you took out of context.
    .
    The article is clearly saying that property crime increased during the depression. Juvenile delinquency went the other way, oddly enough and “rose during prosperity and fell during depression.”
    .
    I don’t remember the exact numbers but I know that when we were studying the Depression in US History in college we learned about the rate of property damage skyrocketing in the depresson.
    .
    Just because the rate of Juvenile delinquency went down doesn’t mean the overall crime rate or the rate of property crime went down. Just as the article says, “Periods of economic distress usually resulted in higher levels of property crime”
    .
    Face it. You are just wrong about that.
    .
    Here is the article. Read it again.
    .
    During the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, criminality in Western societies, particularly property crime, fluctuated in response to changing economic conditions. Although wars had an impact on crime rates, reducing them during hostilities and raising them afterward, their effects were not long-lasting in America. Periods of economic distress usually resulted in higher levels of property crime, especially burglaries, whereas prosperity typically produced lower levels. Oddly enough, juvenile delinquency rates followed a very different path during the 1930s and 1940s (Glaser and Rice). They rose during prosperity and fell during depression.
    .
    Think about it Pat. How could your argument possibly make sense?
    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Periods of economic distress usually resulted in higher levels of property crime, especially burglaries, whereas prosperity typically produced lower levels.”
    .
    Gun control is about violent crime.
    .
    Nowhere here does it say that violent crime is a function of economics.
    .

    “There are numerous examples of gun control laws that have reduced the murder rate — both domestically and internationally.”
    .
    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-guncontrol.htm
    .
    Now this is a statistical study about violence to guns.
    .
    Also, your study never says that property crimes “skyrocketed”.
    .
    It, also, does not say that economics has anything to do with violent crime.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Think about it Pat. How could your argument possibly make sense?”
    .
    Property crime is about getting other people’s things.
    .
    Violent crime is about anger and/or getting other people’s things.
    .
    Two people can often restrain one armed person with a knife even if neither one of the restrainers has any weapons.
    .
    An unarmed army can not stop a person with a gun without probably having one person killed.
    .
    It’s so easy I could even explain to Sarah Palin.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Summery:
    .
    You want easy access to handguns (not hunting guns which are much less, as they should be much less heavily regulated since they are less often used in crimes) despite the high death rate due to originally legal guns being sold off illegally for huge profits to criminals and the mentally ill.
    .
    You believe that only Valerie Plame and the NYT knew about Iraq’s lack of WMD and lack of ties to Al Qada and, if there weren’t such beliefs that liberal would have protested against a second war of self defense when very few protested against a first war of self defense more than a year earlier.
    .
    You believe that Germany does pay 55% of what we have been paying but, for some unknown reasons our health care costs will, instead of going down by adopting a for profit version of the German system make our costs go up.
    .
    You believe that it is an imposition of liberty for people to be handed a health insurance card or for a company to have to make the choice between paying for that or higher taxes.
    .
    You believe that death panels lies, 16,500 armed IRS agents (rather than 5,000 administrators as the bill actually says) lies, the health care enforcement lies and the personal income tax below $250,000 per year lies do not limit the credibility of the Tea Party movement down to 0.
    .
    It looks like, Jackhammer, you only believe things that are untrue and do not believe facts.
    .
    Basically, the whole world, the CIA and responsible newspapers all said that there were no WMD in Iraq and that Husein was a useful enemy of Al Qada if you just did anything other than topple his government.
    .
    As for the Iraq war, even the Pope (not exactly a Muslim fundamentalist nor big fan of WMD) opposed it.
    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/14/world/threats-responses-vatican-pope-voices-opposition-his-strongest-iraq-war.html?scp=1&sq=Pope+Iraq+war&st=nyt
    .
    I don’t know if you would call the very, very anti-communist theologically conservative late Pope John Paul II a liberal. I wouldn’t.
    .
    But, many people were sure that, Democrats, almost every other country in the world and the Pope (as has been said in Republican speeches and on Fox News about Democrats) “want the terrorist to win”.
    .
    The alternative is that Bush lied for some real or perceived gain.
    .
    Revenge and to help him get re-elected are very strong hypotheses and, definitely not a lie.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    My problem with dealing with nearly all of the conservatives who post is that they do not operate using facts.
    .
    Sure, if it is included that having fewer or, in many communities, not increasing gun control will cause more gun deaths, debating gun control as a practical and reasonable response to gun violence against a provision of the constitution which may or may not apply to handguns is fair. So long as we have the same facts that gun control saves lives with that limitation, that is a fair debate. I have no problem with my own having a gun other than, if I did (which I do not) the mildly irritating responsibility of keeping it well locked up, hidden, clean and usable. (With no need for any type of gun, I do not wish to own one).
    .
    If we can discuss HCR in terms of the fact that all other countries and Hawaii have had cost decreases and increased lifespan, and, in this specific bill, why would we not pay less for better results when this, specific bill does noting in the way of coercion.
    .
    If we discuss Iraq, so long as we all agree deal with it on the level that the anti-war protesters, news sources like the NYT, nearly every foreign government and the pope all knew that there were not likely WMD or ties to Al Qada. If there are other reasons why Iraq should have been invaded that is worth the cost in blood and treasure including the huge Iraqi civilian deaths, please bring that up.
    .
    We can discuss the stimulus package, so long as it is done with the understanding that people who study economics all of their lives have for seventy five years seen this as a very good means to job growth.
    .
    We can discuss Tarp and the auto industry bailout so long as it is agreed upon that there would have been far more job losses without both of these and those job losses would have cascaded into about two hundred and fifty percent of the job losses directly from the closing of these businesses.
    .
    We can discuss cap and trade so long as we all agree that 85% of climatologists agree that there is global warming. In that, specific case especially, if anybody knows of better incentives than cap and trade, it would be interesting to hear them.
    .
    In a situation today when conservatives seem to consider it fine to invent facts we are going to have a very hard time keeping our government working in a way that serves the people the best.
    .
    I can just imagine someday watching the extra features to a great movie and finding an interview with the writer and finding out that it is Jackhammer.
    .
    Fact is not one of your strong points Jackhammer. Fiction may very well be an amazing place for you to entertain millions of people.

  • http://miermj.wordpress.com miermj

    patricksartor,

    Did you read the same post I did? You addressed it in your first little sentence, but then went off on a tangent about evolution, the economy & the climate.

    27.1Genevasmom,
    .
    “No blame for former mistakes…”
    .
    Well, this clearly sounds like a reference to Bush and how we are cleaning up after him. Conservatives hate to hear this.

    Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/04/15/sampling-the-tea/comment-page-2/?replytocom=156412#respond#ixzz0lXsvsU9W

    Everyone likes to blame Bush, lord knows he deserves some blame, but what about the Dems? The Democrats have had control of the house & the senate since 2006. Did they do nothing for those 2 years? Everyone loves to point fingures, no one knows how to take responsibility anymore. It’s kinda easy. Say “this is what we did, we were wrong, and this is how we are going to fix it”. See, not that hard. Didn’t even have to point the fingure at anyone else.

    Like I said, the rest of your post doesn’t have anything to do with Genevasmom’s post, who made very goods points, so I’m not going there.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Another version of the transcript (the one published in The New York Times on 23 September 1990) has Glaspie saying:
    “ But we have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait. I was in the American Embassy in Kuwait during the late ’60s. The instruction we had during this period was that we should express no opinion on this issue and that the issue is not associated with America. James Baker has directed our official spokesmen to emphasize this instruction. We hope you can solve this problem using any suitable methods via Klibi (Chedli Klibi, Secretary General of the Arab League) or via President Mubarak. All that we hope is that these issues are solved quickly. ”

    When these purported transcripts were made public, Glaspie was accused of having given tacit approval for the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, which took place on August 2, 1990. It was argued that Glaspie’s statements that “We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts” and that “the Kuwait issue is not associated with America” were interpreted by Saddam as giving free rein to handle his disputes with Kuwait as he saw fit. It was also argued that Saddam would not have invaded Kuwait had he been given an explicit warning that such an invasion would be met with force by the United States.”
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Glaspie
    .
    It has been believed that we did not make our opinion’s strong regarding Kuwait in 1990.
    .
    This is the statement I was referring to.
    .
    It was my understanding that it was outright approval, not just not replying.
    .
    So, I think I covered everything and then some.
    .
    Facts!
    .
    Please use facts!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    If I think of Democratic mistakes, I do not think of the deadlock from 2006 through 2008. Almost nothing got done at all.
    .
    However, it is clear to many that the number one cause for the financial meltdown was the repeal of the Glass Steagall act which kept banks out of finance and financial firms out of banking so that when financial houses collapsed it did no harm to regular banking.
    .
    It was proposed by Republicans, but, in Bill Clinton’s desire to be a part of the “third way” he signed it even though there were not enough Republican votes to override a veto if he wanted to veto it.
    .
    So, the president I hold most responsible for this meltdown is not GWB but Bill Clinton.
    .
    When it comes to the binary choice we have in America of Democrats or Republicans, both have flaws. However, it was when Clinton was being too conservative that he signed this repeal. For that reason, instead of a Tea Party solution, I would say that we need people who are consistently more liberal than Clinton was. Due to how our country does not have proportional representation nor automatic run offs I see a choice between a party which is sometimes too loose with regulations protecting consumers, investors and workers and another party which is, basically, always too loose with regulations protecting consumers, investors and workers.
    .
    2006 through 2008 was all about constant deadlock and how Democrats and Republicans do not even have a vaguely similar sets of facts much less vaguely compatible agendas, so, deadlock, as I best recall it, was the biggest news of that time.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation
    .
    So, with one party I disagree with 90% of the time and another party I disagree with 20% of the time, I am a Democrat. I disagree, so far, with the Tea Party 100% of the time. Hence, they are the least likely solution I can think of. (Hence, I am more conservative than Democrats about 10% of the time and more liberal than Democrats about 10% of the time).

  • jackhammer69

    God Pat, I thought you had a job!
    .
    Two people can often restrain one armed person with a knife even if neither one of the restrainers has any weapons.

    .
    Not if the person with the knife knows what they are doing. (See Sept 11th.) Or if that person is OJ Simpson, apparently.
    .
    Nowhere here does it say that violent crime is a function of economics.
    .
    It doesn’t have to. It is common sense that when people are desperate and scared they do drastic, desperate things. As soon as someone starts thinking that their own life or well being is at risk, the rate of prosocial behavior drops off precipitously.
    .
    Quoting from your link: One of the most remarkable examples was a 1992-93 Kansas City experiment by the National Institute of Justice. There, police officers in a large section of the inner city agreed to work overtime to remove illegal guns from the streets. During these overtime shifts, they were given no other responsibilities but to search for and confiscate illegal weapons. This heightened enforcement (of existing gun laws) lasted 29 weeks. The study compared the crime rate during this period to the prior 29 weeks;…
    .
    OH MY GOD!
    .
    I can’t even read any more of that! If you can’t see how flawed that study is, you don’t deserve to participate in this conversation!
    .
    You want easy access to handguns (not hunting guns which are much less, as they should be much less heavily regulated since they are less often used in crimes)
    .
    I never said I want easy access to handguns I said I want easy access to “an equalizer,” which is any gun. Rifles are especially useful against the police.
    .
    You believe that only Valerie Plame and the NYT knew about Iraq’s lack of WMD and lack of ties to Al Qada and, blah, blah, blah.
    .
    I don’t believe any of that. You obviously haven’t read or understood any of my comments on that subject.
    .
    I didn’t have to read the NYT to know there wasn’t any WMD!! I have said that at least twice already. I could see the writing on the wall. I knew what Bush was up to. I told everyone that would listen that he shouldn’t make it over WMD because that will probably end up making him look like a liar, Which is just what happened.
    .
    I’m really getting sick of explaining myself to you repeatedly, pat. If you can’t keep up, shut up.
    .
    for some unknown reasons our health care costs will, instead of going down by adopting a for profit version of the German system make our costs go up.
    .
    A For Profit version of Germany’s Health Care system is going to cause our prices to go down??
    .
    Keep smoking, Pat. FYI: our health care system is already too focused on profit. That’s a big part of the problem. You’d know that by now if you had been reading my posts.
    .
    You believe that it is an imposition of liberty for people to be handed a health insurance card
    .
    No Pat, I don’t. Can’t you see what your problem is? If health care was free I wouldn’t have a problem with it just being handed out to everyone. But its not. It costs money. A LOT of money. Too much money. Why does it cost so much, Pat?
    .
    It is an imposition on liberty to make me buy something I don’t want or need.
    .
    Too many people that don’t really do anything with health care make a ton of money off it.
    .
    My sister works for a Health insurance company, pat. Do you know what is going with that company right now? They are making record profits! She makes almost as much as I do, and all she does is sit at a desk and do data entry all day. She and her coworkers spend the better part of the day gossiping, taking long breaks, and goofing off (her words, not mine). She has better benefits than I get at my job. Where does the money come from to pay for those things?
    .
    From you. And me. And everyone else that is paying into this broken system we have that just bilks us all for more and more money but doesn’t really provide a tangible product or service.
    .
    “Insurance” is a scam. Now we are forced to buy it.
    .
    And then as soon as you get sick, they raise your rates or just drop you. (notice how the stupid Health Care bill tried to stop that, but the lawyers for the Insurance companies are already finding loop holes in the law to avoid paying for children with pre-existing conditions?).
    .
    Yeah, let’s just throw more money at a screwed up system. Let’s make more dumb laws that people can exploit, abuse, and dodge around. Let’s not put some power and responsibility in the hands of the people. They need the government to look out for them.
    .
    You believe that blah, blah, blah….
    .
    No I don’t . . I’m really tired of you telling me who I am and what I think. Your pathetic attempts with that tactic are wearing very thin.
    .
    It looks like, Jackhammer, you only believe things that are untrue and do not believe facts.
    .
    Apparently you haven’t noticed yet, but I am a realist, A cynic, a Spartan, a libertarian, an agnostic, and a student of Nietzsche, Plato, Kierkegaard, Diogenes, Adams, and Jefferson, to name a few.
    .
    I believe that hard work, thriftiness, open mindedness, investing in oneself, education, perseverance, stoicism, and excellence are the keys to success.
    .
    I guess that’s why I’ve ended up in management and leadership positions at every job I’ve ever had (through merit promotions), and you are still struggling to get your life together. (and you’re older than me, Pat)
    .
    My problem with dealing with nearly all of the conservatives who post is that they do not operate using facts.
    .
    No. your problem is that you are an idiot.
    .
    Iraq and that Husein was a useful enemy of Al Qada if you just did anything other than topple his government.
    .
    So things would have been better if we left him in power?
    .
    Right.
    .
    As long as you get to watch your shows and hang out with your friends and surf the net, who cares what our government is doing to a whole nation full of innocent people, right?
    .
    Middle Eastern Geopolitics in the modern era, Pat. Learn about it.
    .
    As for the Iraq war, even the Pope (not exactly a Muslim fundamentalist nor big fan of WMD) opposed it.
    .
    Modern Popes always oppose war, violence and bloodshed.
    .
    The alternative is that Bush lied for some real or perceived gain. .
    .
    Yeah. I’ve said a dozen times that he lied.
    .
    Revenge and to help him get re-elected are very strong hypotheses….
    .
    No they are not. They are as stupid as saying we never went to the Moon, or that Roosevelt knew about the attack on Pearl Harbor before it happened.
    .
    They are not hypothesis. They are impugning people’s motives and making assumptions without any facts to back them up (or they have false “facts”). And they are influenced by an underlying agenda to spread negative propaganda and lies about the government.
    .
    Bush couldn’t eat a pretzel without choking. Bill Clinton couldn’t get a Blow Job without the whole world finding out. Do you really think our government could cover it up if that were true?
    .
    If someone could prove that the Iraq war was really just a personal vendetta of the Bushes, wouldn’t someone have produced some kind of hard FACTS about that by now? Seems there would be an e-mail, a taped conversation, a leak, a comment made “off the record,” that the liberals would have gotten their hands on by now to back that claim. But as it is, there are no facts at all to support that “hypothesis.” Only your biased preconceptions of Bush. And as we all know, you are a major victim of the preconceived notion, Pat.
    .
    Hey, weren’t you just saying I don’t listen to facts??
    .
    Looks like that shoe is on the other foot, now.
    .
    Sure, if it is included that having fewer or, in many communities, not increasing gun control will cause more gun deaths
    .
    “gun deaths” are a social problem, not a gun problem. In fact, according to the CDC, roughly 30,000 people are killed every year in America by firearms of all kinds. (FACT, verified by your precious NYT) First of all, that is less than one tenth of 1 percent of the population. Furthermore, when the cops shoot an armed criminal and kill him, or if you were to shoot a home invader that was breaking into your house, that criminal’s death is recorded by the CDC as a firearm related homicide.
    .
    So some of the people killed in America every year by firearms deserve it.
    .
    Furthermore, violent crime in nations like England and Australia, that have strict gun laws, is MUCH HIGHER than it is in America.
    .
    To quote some facts: Twenty-six percent of English citizens — roughly one-quarter of the population — have been victimized by violent crime. Australia led the list with more than 30 percent of its population victimized. The United States didn’t even make the “top 10″ list of industrialized nations whose citizens were victimized by crime.
    .
    Learn more here: http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/guncontrol_20010302.html
    .
    Why don’t Americans get victimized as much as people in Australia or Britain? I know at least one local gang member in my area who thinks its because, “you gotta watch out for the old white people. They have guns!”
    .
    Guns don’t cause gun violence, Pat. And if you take them away, you will have bigger problems.
    .
    Here’s more interesting information about the CDC’s statistics.: http://www.tincher.to/deaths.htm
    .
    And more interesting facts about Guns and Crime: http://lmliberty.wordpress.com/2010/03/30/firearms-deaths-fall-as-millions-obtain-conceal-carry-permits/
    .
    And some facts about guns in America:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States
    .
    A few facts from the Wikipedia:
    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States)

    * Most common cause of firearm death, Suicide.
    * People with a criminal record are also more likely to die as homicide victims.[11] Between 1990 and 1994, 75% of all homicide victims age 21 and younger in the city of Boston had a prior criminal record.
    .
    In other words, taking guns away from everyone isn’t going to stop the main cause of firearm death. People will find other ways to kill themselves, see Japan. And, 75% of “kids” killed by firearms were actually criminals who probably deserved it.
    .

    I can do this all day, Pat. Its easy when you have the impartial facts on your side.
    .

    Now, on to Health Care:
    .
    cost decreases and increased lifespan,
    .
    That sounds just like what you said about crime in the Depression. How could it be that people live longer and use less health care? History proves that’s not true.
    .
    If we discuss Iraq, so long as we all agree deal with it on the level that the anti-war protesters, news sources like the NYT, nearly every foreign government and the pope all knew that there were not likely WMD or ties to Al Qada.
    .
    And ME, Pat! why do you keep forgetting me? I told everyone who would listen in 2002 that it wasn’t about WMD and Bush was going to be sorry for that lie.
    .
    And I don’t read the NYT very often. I prefer the WSJ. You should try it sometime. I promise you will learn something every time you pick it up.

    .
    If there are other reasons why Iraq should have been invaded that is worth the cost in blood and treasure including the huge Iraqi civilian deaths, please bring that up.
    .
    I already have. Take some poli-Sci classes when you go back to school, Pat.
    .
    And BTW, a lot of democrats supported the invasion too. Why don’t I ever hear liberals slam Ted Kennedy or Hillary Clinton for their support of the invasion?
    .
    Here’s an interesting article from the Washington Post in 2005.(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/21/AR2005082100831.html)
    .
    What does that first paragraph say???
    .
    Democrats say a long-standing rift in the party over the Iraq war has grown increasingly raw in recent days, as stay-the-course elected leaders who voted for the war three years ago confront rising impatience from activists and strategists who want to challenge President Bush aggressively to withdraw troops.
    .
    A long standing rift? “Stay the course elected leaders?” Hey, it even says that Democrat opposition to the war is based on the political ambitions of activists and strategists who want to “challenge President Bush.”
    .
    Looks to me like democratic opposition is based mostly in politics rather than reasoned logic.
    .
    this, specific bill does noting in the way of coercion.
    .
    “Coercion (pronounced /co-er-shon/ or /koʊˈɜrʃən/) is the practice of forcing another party to behave in an involuntary manner”
    .
    Again you are wrong. Forcing me to buy something I don’t want and punishing me if I don’t, is the very definition of coercion. .. And unfortunately for you, vocabulary is one of my strongest subjects.
    .
    We can discuss the stimulus package,
    .
    Doubtful.
    .
    We can discuss cap and trade…
    .
    I’m sure you can’t.
    .
    In a situation today when liberals seem to consider it fine to invent facts we are going to have a very hard time keeping our government working in a way that serves the people the best.
    .
    “Another version of the transcript (the one published in The New York Times on 23 September 1990) has Glaspie saying: “ But we have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait…. . It was my understanding that it was outright approval, not just not replying.
    .
    In other words you were wrong when you said we gave him approval. What you are describing is our stated foreign policy, post Vietnam. Nothing new or sinister there. And in fact, I would bet that those ideas of nonintervention came from the left.
    .

    I can just imagine someday watching the extra features to a great movie and finding an interview with the writer and finding out that it is Jackhammer.

    .
    And I can just imagine taking your money (legally), and without the government’s help.
    .
    Fact is not one of your strong points Jackhammer. Fiction may very well be an amazing place for you to entertain millions of people.

    . Truth is stranger than fiction, Pat. You are living proof… Why do you think I keep talking with you?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    jackhammer69
    .
    I work from home. I am my own boss, too.
    .
    It’s what I have been told is a libertarian’s dream, but, I am not that excited about it.
    .
    I, also, believe that I am younger than your are by at least two years.
    .
    Also, I heard the original story before it was declassified in 2002 back in 1991 regarding the Iraqi ambassador.
    .
    We should never have gone into Iraq since there was nothing for our country to gain.
    .
    As for your employer buying health care you do not want, that is not an imposition against you. It is about the business you work for who will pass it on to consumers.
    .
    Not having the public option was a disappointment for many Democrats. Unfortunately Democrats could not afford another 1994 after failing to pass HCR and have congress controlled by Republicans for twelve long years. So, this make shift HCR reform is here for now.
    .
    Health insurance companies make only about 10% profit, so, this will be somewhat more expensive than the German system, but, not more expensive than what we had.
    .
    As for the rest of it, even thought I work from home, I start cold calling early in the morning. I’ll get back to you about everything then.
    .
    Hey, I fed you a free compliment.
    .
    I just explained on another post about Keynesian economics and before that about how 80% of today’s economists are New Keynesians.
    .
    Cap and trade was straight out of my environmental economics class.
    .
    For what it’s worth, even though I am not excited about my job, your job sounds like it sucks sht and it took you a college degree to get it.
    .
    I wouldn’t brag too much if I were you.
    .
    A graph of my income on this job looks like a boa constrictor eating deer: nothing for long bouts and huge payouts in the middle. It was a dead year so far.

  • jackhammer69

    I, also, believe that I am younger than your are by at least two years.

    .
    I thought so too, based on the way you talk. But you said you were 39. I’m 36.
    .

  • jackhammer69

    As for your employer buying health care you do not want, that is not an imposition against you. It is about the business you work for who will pass it on to consumers.

    .
    I stil lhave to pay for it, one way or the other.

  • jackhammer69

    For what it’s worth, even though I am not excited about my job, your job sounds like it sucks sht and it took you a college degree to get it.

    .
    Actually, I love my job. Hard work is good for you.
    .

  • jackhammer69

    A graph of my income on this job looks like a boa constrictor eating deer: nothing for long bouts and huge payouts in the middle. It was a dead year so far.

    .
    I really don’t care.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    You know what?
    .
    You’re just being a Jackass, Jackasshammer.
    .
    You are so determined to believe in your own world and just like spewing out insults, you can go fk yourself and don’t even expect me to explain reality to you.
    .
    I’m going to be up in seven hours, so, I really don’t need your being argumentative as a passtime.
    .
    Find another blog to be an a-hole.
    .
    Liberals outnumber conservatives so badly that you’ll have plenty of places to go.

  • jackhammer69

    Find another blog to be an a-hole.
    .
    Is this your blog? I didn’t know you had the right to kick me off?
    .
    You are so determined to believe in your own world

    .
    No. I’m determined to shatter the world you believe in.
    .
    I’m going to be up in seven hours, so, I really don’t need your being argumentative as a passtime.


    .
    Then quit replying to me. Or do you need the government to help you do that too?
    .
    Liberals outnumber conservatives so badly that you’ll have plenty of places to go.
    .
    Yeah. I know. They are on my list. I just want to make sure you know who won here.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    My work won, Jackasshammer.

  • jackhammer69

    your work?
    .
    Are you becoming delusional from lack of sleep?
    .

  • jackhammer69

    Notice too, that you keep making fun of my name. That is awfully juvenile for a 40 year old man, Pat.
    .
    I haven’t made fun of your name once, even though “Pat” is one of the most androgynous names in the world.
    .
    Hows that for a FACT?
    .

  • jackhammer69

    Hey, and BTW, if it has been a slow year at your job so far, maybe you should spend more time working and less time making a fool out of yourself on the internet.
    .
    Get to work, you bum.
    .
    Quit asking for handouts and go earn a living.
    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I’m known as Patrick, not Pat.
    .
    That is a fact.
    .
    In the meantime, your entries clearly show that you and not I are up all night working on creating online graffiti instead of real work.
    .
    I told you that I start my day early.
    .
    I am not going to explain my work to somebody who works in, apparently, medical waste. You said that your work was tied to medicine and then you said it about recycling.
    .
    Once you said that you wanted to write for a living and found your job displeasing, another time you said that you loved your job.
    .
    Since the Swamp keeps on tossing things into people’s email, about fifteen people, if not more, are being spammed by you. So, let it go and leave me alone.

  • jackhammer69

    I’m known as Patrick, not Pat.
    .
    I know you as Pat, Pat.
    .
    Hey, you should have used “Pat Migroin” as your screen name. That would have been a lot funnier than what you are using! And it would have appealed to your tendency to make sexual associations with people’s names. (remember when you said my first name was a phallic reference, and then I had to explain to you what a Jackhammer really is?? Ahh, the memories! )
    .
    In the meantime, your entries clearly show that you and not I are up all night working on creating online graffiti instead of real work.
    .
    Sure I stay up late and get up early. But I wasn’t complaining to you about it.
    .
    And what I’m doing with you is work, Pat. Just wait and see….
    .
    I am not going to explain my work to somebody who works in, apparently, medical waste….
    .
    You don’t explain your work to people who work in medical waste?
    .
    That is the strangest prejudice I’ve ever heard in my life! I’ve heard of people who don’t talk to Black people, or old people, or midgets, but I’ve never heard of someone so prejudice that they won’t talk to another person just because of the job that person does.
    .
    I am willing to talk to all people, Pat, no matter what their job is, even real estate agents who can’t seem to sell any real estate.
    .
    And, congratulations, you are close to actually deducing something about me that is accurate. Some of what we do is medical waste (about 2%). So I’ll give you a point for that.
    .
    Really though, I left the medical industry about 8 years ago after deciding that it was not being done safely or accurately and I didn’t want any part it any more. So I left, rather than be held responsible for some stupid profit oriented policy that was putting people’s lives at risk (mine, my employees, and the patients).
    .
    Once you said that you wanted to write for a living and found your job displeasing, another time you said that you loved your job.
    .
    I said that when I was a kid I didn’t aspire to working hard all day. That doesn’t mean it is displeasing, it’s just not what I dreamed of when I was a kid (which is what you asked). It’s still a very good job (much better than yours, obviously). It’s actually the best job I’ve ever had in my life (so far). But it isn’t the job I would wish for.
    .
    If you don’t like your job, you should either get another one, or change the one you have into something that you can like. Either way, complaining to me about it won’t help anything.
    .
    I’m not going to hire you, so don’t ask. I’ve already got enough lazy American employees who like to make fools out of themselves on a daily basis.
    .
    Since the Swamp keeps on tossing things into people’s email, about fifteen people, if not more, are being spammed by you. So, let it go and leave me alone.
    .
    I hope its a lot more than that (I’m sure a lot more will see this eventually). And I would hope most of those people find me entertaining.
    .
    You need to leave me alone and get to work, Pat. And stop cold calling people. That’s rude! You need to find other ways to generate leads.

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