Obama Gets Preachy

Barack Obama confirmed to Matt Lauer last week what we here at Time.com first reported in June 2009: the First Family is not looking to join a church in the Washington, DC area. The family’s main reason for calling off the search, Obama said, was the concern that their presence would prove too disruptive for whatever church community they did join. It’s a well-founded worry, as when the First Family ventured out to southeast Washington to attend Easter services at Allen Chapel AME Church on Sunday, those who had gotten advance word of the visit began lining up at the decidedly ungodly hour of 3:30 in the morning to score a seat in the 700-person sanctuary.

So instead of joining a church, it looks like Obama will have to create his own faith community. He made a start on Tuesday morning, inviting approximately 80 Christian leaders to a belated Easter breakfast in the East Room of the White House.

The event was billed as a prayer breakfast, but in reality it was the latest in a series of sectarian events the White House has hosted to observe key religious holidays. Last fall, Obama became the first U.S. president to attend a Diwali ceremony to celebrate the Indian festival of lights. The White House has also held a Hanukkah party, a dinner to break the fast during Ramadan, and most recently a Seder on the first night of Passover (although no outside guests attended).

Many Christian leaders visited the White House during the Christmas season for holiday parties, but according to White House aides, the President wanted to hold a separate event specifically observing a Christian holy day (even if it took place after Holy Week). The term “prayer breakfast” created some confusion, however, as in the past it has been used by other administrations for ecumenical gatherings of religious leaders from Christian, Jewish, Muslim and other traditions. In contrast, when Obama has met with religious leaders from different faiths, it has almost always been related to the work of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships.

The White House is not releasing the full list of attendees at the Easter breakfast. But the names they did provide to the press are a careful mix of ethnic and denominational leaders, including a large number of African-American pastors who met with the president separately before the breakfast and representatives from Mexican-American and Korean religious communities. Other notable attendees included mega-church pastors Bill Hybels of Willow Creek Church in Illinois and Joel Hunter of Northland in Florida; evangelical pastor and author Joel Osteen; progressive evangelical Brian McLaren; and the heads of the National Council of Churches, the Jesuit Volunteer Corps, and the Salvation Army.

In addition, the aides pointedly invited Catholic leaders deemed friendly to the White House, including Sister Carol Keehan, president of the Catholic Health Association, who ended up supporting health reform over the protests of the bishops conference. Pietro Sambi, the Papal Nuncio (essentially the Vatican’s ambassador to the United States), was also in attendance, although his was purely a diplomatic presence.

Several leaders, including Hybels and Sharon Watkins, head of the Disciples of Christ denomination, spoke at the breakfast event. But the most striking remarks were delivered by Obama himself. The president spoke for just a few short minutes and relied on a written text, but his words were the most self-consciously Christian he has uttered publicly as a national politician.

Telling the audience he wanted to talk about “what lesson I take from Christ’s sacrifice and what inspires me about the story of the resurrection,” Obama offered a brief reflection on the Easter story. In the process, he delivered statements of belief that would have outraged liberal critics if spoken by George W. Bush in the White House:

We are awed by the grace He showed even to those who would have killed Him. We are thankful for the sacrifice He gave for the sins of humanity. And we glory in the promise of redemption in the resurrection…. As Christians, we believe that redemption can be delivered—by faith in Jesus Christ.

Obama has always sounded very relaxed when talking about faith—both his own beliefs and the important role he sees for faith in public life. He seemed less comfortable and sounded less himself on Tuesday morning. Or maybe it was just jarring to hear the president use phrases like “our risen Savior” and “the Son of man” in the East Room. Regardless, White House aides say Obama wrote his own remarks.

Related Topics: faith, obama, Uncategorized
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  • Cliff

    Any thoughts on that video released by WikiLeaks of the Iraqis getting shot by the helicopter?
    .
    I’m sure you could look at the religious aspects of that (i.e. the prevalence of Christians in the military and how they reconcile their faith with acts such as that depicted in the video).
    .
    I’m sure that would have made for a superior post.

  • deconstructiva

    Thanks, Amy. Please post more often. BTW, OT but I read your earlier picky eater post at The Atlantic …and your mention of your pregnancy. Congratulations and best wishes! I hope everything goes well for you and your upcoming baby. And yes, food preparation is everything. Recipes and cooking techniques can change tastes of any item dramatically, even mushrooms.
    .
    Well, after THAT, who cares about Obama’s church? But I liked seeing that he invited the leader of Nuns who fought the USCCB re: HCR. But more importantly, take care of yourself (literally).
    .
    http://www.theatlantic.com/food/archive/2010/03/confessions-of-a-picky-eater/38106/
    (read halfway down the article)

  • Cliff

    your mention of your pregnancy
    .
    Good catch, decon. That’d explain her sparse posts lately.
    .
    Let me add my well wishes and congratulations (despite my earlier grouchy post)!

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    I 3rd the congrats and 2nd the grouchy post.

  • apr2563

    Amy, please do not presume that liberals are not religious. I no longer practice a faith but many of my ethical standards are based on the words of Jesus, even if secularly. And, I know many very religious people who are liberal and believe in social justice.
    .
    What outraged liberals about Bushes’ declarations of faith was his hypocritical implementation of that faith. Taking us to premptive war, dividing the country through fear, and using his faith politically didn’t seem to be very moral.
    .
    I do wish that Presidents, if they have a religious credo, would practice their faith privately. It would avoid us having to watch someone like Reagan feign deep religious faith while avoiding services. And, it might cause the religious right to stop insisting that we are a Judeo/Christian country.

  • gysgt213

    Obama’s needs to keep the kids away from the Catholic church.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    In the process, he delivered statements of belief that would have outraged liberal critics if spoken by George W. Bush in the White House:

    I want very much to be interested in what you have to say but then you inevitably ruin it. The only reason people are critical of GWB’s expressions of piety is that they run absolutely counter to his actual actions. The one characteristic that set him apart from most was his utter disregard for the sanctity of human life. The fact that many of his supporters cherry-pick their way right past the Gospels in order guide their lives by Leviticus only makes matters worse.

  • michaelfury

    “Any thoughts on that video released by WikiLeaks of the Iraqis getting shot by the helicopter?”

    Yes:

    “Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.” – Proverbs 22:6

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/09/25/first-person-sho0ter/

  • constantweader

    The President of the United States should save his professions of faith for the privacy of his home & his church. The East Room, though technically a part of his “home,” is a public venue, & it is an inappropriate place from which to make what amount to public statements about religious beliefs. The President has the bully pulpit, but he should not be bullying the American people from it. He might think Jesus is “our risen savior,” but that leaves out millions of “us” who believe otherwise.

    The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com

  • gysgt213

    “In the process, he delivered statements of belief that would have outraged liberal critics if spoken by George W. Bush in the White House.”
    .
    I’m still trying to figure what the hell Amy means by this statement of apparent fact.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “In the process, he delivered statements of belief that would have outraged liberal critics if spoken by George W. Bush in the White House…”

    Being a little redundant, Obama professed faith in the Jesus of compassion, mercy and brotherly love which is what his policies seek through additional services to the poor through HCR and his incomplete plans to end both a defensive war in Afghanistan and a war of aggression in Iraq.

    Bush spoke of this god of his wishing profits on the wealthy and wishing only “personal responsibility” (a catch phrase taken completely out of context by conservatives meaning “using magic to get out of poverty”) on the poor and civilian victims of both our defensive war and our war of aggression in Iraq.

    Obama, through his words and actions expresses his faith as an ideal he has aspired to. Bush called himself one of those already “saved” by proclaiming his highly specific evangelical faith.

    Because of who is saying,the message is inoffensive from Obama.

    I am an atheist, but, if you have a faith which tells you to care for the needy, the do what you can to discontinue war and to seek a fairer and more just society, I can’t knock that. It isn’t a bad thing.

    The faith of Bush was that he had the master faith and could do no wrong since his prayers gave him some magic insight into what his god wanted him to do. It was a false self confidence Bush had which lead this country further astray from brotherly love, compassion and peace.

    I see no similarities at all between Obama speaking to his god and Bush speaker for his god.

    Don’t forget that Jimmy Carter, far more than Reagan, Bush Sr or any previous president in at least half a century before him (maybe longer) was, also, very religious and, as an ex-president, known as an extremely kind man.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    Like Bush, Obama seems to have found a way to balance the teachings of Christ with war, even though they clearly contradict each other. That’s quite a balancing act.

  • hellslittlestangel

    As does any responsible parent.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Not starting a war of aggression (AKA preemptive war ) is incredibly easy.
    .
    Not launching a defensive war when under attack or ending existing wars are far more difficult no matter what religion or creed you have.
    .
    Iraq, Katrina (obviously the miserable response, not the hurricane), budget cuts for the wealthy leaving our coffers empty to buy votes with tax rebates were things I found to be cynical manipulations as Bush’s proclomation of his faith.
    .
    Obama doesn’t seem to be in any hurry to talk about how he prays, how often he prays or what he prays for. He is keeping his religion to himself and to his family – private as it should be.

  • hellslittlestangel

    As a liberal, and a non-believer, I AM outraged that a political leader would spout religious BS in a public forum. But Bush always outraged me a teensy bit more simply because he is such a hateful little turd.

  • freeinpa

    patricksartor

    Nothing like religious advice from the godless left.

    Gee you seem to be online all the time. Aren’t you short changing your fabulous career you claim to have?

  • jnb987

    I quite like this approach to religious belief from the Obamas. As an atheistic ex-Jew, it gives me great pride to know that Christians are finally treated on an equal playing field with other religions; just have a private religious observance with leaders of the religion on or around their Holy Day. Christians, Jews, Muslims, all alike. No more giant Christmas Tree and then a Menorah off in the corner.
    .
    That’s an observational method I can approve of.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I am about to head into the city right now, but, I ‘ll be back this afternoon.
    .
    “godless”
    .
    reeper, as you like such a nickname, apparently, people like you claiming peace and compassion while grabbing food stamps from a pauper, having a 38 caliber on your hip and talking about going to war with more and more countries showed me that there is no god since if there was one, he would have hit you with lightening when you pulled that BS.
    .
    The overall thought I had on my mind when I finally stopped going to church was in 1997 when I was reading about the massacres in Rwanda and how this world full of people preaching god and love didn’t even come in to lift a finger. It wasn’t like the Soviet Union who would have taken us into nuclear war if we tried to stop them. It wasn’t like the Nazis who put their death camps deep into the East and far away from where the Allies could have saved them. All of you religious people just sat on your hands and waited for a god to jump down from the sky to save people.
    .
    Saving people from massacres and all possible preventable premature death or suffering is the job of humanity since your great god didn’t jump from the sky to save anybody. Your faith was too self absorbed to do anything about Rwanda. In 1994, a few years before I discovered I was an atheist, TV was obsessed with OJ Simpson and you god loving Christians were obsessed with Monica Lewinsky.
    .
    You’re great at advocating your faith.
    .
    A few million more like you and Christianity will go extinct.

  • Ivy_B

    In the process, he delivered statements of belief that would have outraged liberal critics if spoken by George W. Bush in the White House

    I was irritated by this statement as were so many others. Paul Dirks expressed my feelings very well.

    Obama’s personal statement was fine with me as this was an invitation function and not a public one, broadcast on tv.

    Or maybe it was just jarring to hear the president use phrases like “our risen Savior” and “the Son of man” in the East Room. I was somewhat surprised that AS was so judgmental about this. it was the latest in a series of sectarian events the White House has hosted to observe key religious holidays Therefore, no big deal as far as I’m concerned. Now if he had said it at the Hannukah party or the breaking of the fast for Ramadan…

    This seems to me just another excuse to fuss about the chuch membership and pile on as well.

  • justmy02cents

    CLiff,

    Put aside your hate of the US Military and go to the post and read the threads….

    Don’t believe all that you are told…view and decide for yourself.

  • justmy02cents

    Patrick,

    sounds like a nerve was hit….

    BTW: I did not see Jeremiah Wright on the guest list…didn’t make the cut it seems.

    I realize from your past posts that you are in commercial real estate, but can you help me w/a clean safe reasonably priced studio in HK?

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    “Obama doesn’t seem to be in any hurry to talk about how he prays, how often he prays or what he prays for. He is keeping his religion to himself and to his family – private as it should be.”
    .
    In the Obama quote that is part of this thread header he claims to be a Christian, you know, the faith that tells us to turn the other cheek and be kind to our enemies.

  • nflfoghorn

    Fourth and third :)

  • freeinpa

    patricksartor:

    “apparently, people like you claiming peace and compassion while grabbing food stamps from a pauper, having a 38 caliber on your hip and talking about going to war with more and more countries showed me that there is no god since if there was one, he would have hit you with lightening when you pulled that BS.”

    Bitter, hateful and prone to unfounded stereotypes. You are a true liberal
    ==
    “In 1994, a few years before I discovered I was an atheist,”

    And godless as I said. You discovered you were an atheist? Digging on the beaches in the Hamptons or perusing the trash left web sites?

    Like much of the left government is religion. Abortion, environmentalism are gospels. You condemn war but hide behind “choice” for killing the most vulnerable. of our society.

    9:15am and just heading to work Sounds like a typical limousine liberal. Is mom going to let you answer phones today?

  • nflfoghorn

    I’m not gonna pile on atheists or self-professed Christians who don’t believe things I’d consider Christ-like. But from a church deacon’s perspective I think BO is guided by my favorite Bible verse, Micah 6:8: “He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what more does he require of you than to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?”

  • parodox

    I would disagree in part with your comment. As a practicing Roman Catholic who is certain that my church cannot ruin my faith, I want to know my presidents sincere beliefs. I guess that was my problem with GW Bush. I believed that he quoted the bible but didn’t get, or want to get, it’s meaning. The thing Obama can do that we have not seen since Carter is that he can sit down with people who have said hateful things about him and have a conversation in an atmosphere of respect and search for common ground. Unfortunately, this was seen by the foes of Carther as a sign of weakness. Obama’s relentless pursuit of this goal is a sign of strength and I see this as evidence of sincere faith. Obama’s relations with other faiths shows that he does not believe that Christianity has all of the answers and there is much wisdom in other faith traditions. It also suggests that he believes there is one diety and therefore, no matter your faith tradition, we all worship that diety. If the moral directions of one’s faith leads one to create a better world, what difference does it make what name we call him/her or what day of the week we worship?

  • m0mentom0ri

    Freepy: “Nothing like religious advice from the godless left.”
    .
    Gee, I wonder where right-wingers like Freepy get the idea that liberals are ‘godless’?
    .
    Amy: “In the process, he delivered statements of belief that would have outraged liberal critics if spoken by George W. Bush in the White House:”
    .
    Oh, right. Never mind.

  • justmy02cents

    Jimmy Carter was also a member of the hated US NAVY and in fact a nuclear engineer…

    A nice man who was prepared to end civilization as we know it….

    Patrick,

    limiting your comment to the last 50 years is interesting to me because for the first 150 years of our country’s existence, stongly professed Christian religious beliefs were common-place, part of public ceremony, revered by the most learned of the times.

    How far we have come…I think

  • apr2563

    Paradox: As a person who had a strict Catholic upbringing, I could careless what or if our President has a religious affiliation. I think an atheist can be a compassionate and effective leader of our country.
    Talking to those who differ with him one on one is a good idea. But, I don’t think it has to be a theological discussion.
    .
    A President may believe there is no diety and that we do not share the belief there is one. Do you know what would happen if a President in this coutry stated that point of view?

  • apr2563

    just20: We also burned “witches”, condoned slavery, accepted child labor, parrticipated in wars of empire, did not allow women the right to vote, treated women as chattel…

  • sacredh

    Put me down for a fifth.

  • apr2563

    freeper: Don’t you read anything but your and your fellow travelers diatribes. Patrick has gone on for paragraph after paragraph pronouncing his belief in the right to life. If you have to move your lips to read, that is ok.

  • sacredh

    If drafted I will not run and if elected I will not serve.
    .
    You were talking about me weren’t you?

  • apr2563

    moment: You are so right. It is another stereotype of the left. Adds to the idea that we are not “real Americans”. Amy I think an apology is due.

  • sacredh

    I found a way to keep my son out of any church.
    .
    I told him there was work inside.

  • grape_crush

    In the process, he delivered statements of belief that would have outraged liberal critics if spoken by George W. Bush in the White House…

    Is that really true? Or was it the cynical and often hypocritical use of religious language (and religious constituencies) to further some decidedly un-Christian goals? Or maybe, just maybe, there’s a few people – not only liberals – that think that the mixing of religion and politics is not a good thing, and that the founders of this country knew what they were doing when they erected what amounted to a Chinese wall between the two…

    Furthermore, Obama isn’t passing himself off as God’s Little Buddy and Mouthpiece, as Dubya tended to:

    “God loves you, and I love you. And you can count on both of us as a powerful message that people who wonder about their future can hear.”

    “I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn’t do my job.”

    “I am driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, ‘George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan’. And I did. And then God would tell me ‘George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq’. And I did. And now, again, I feel God’s words coming to me, ‘Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East’. And, by God, I’m gonna do it.”

    Pop Quiz: Of Dubya and Reagan or Carter and Clinton, who attended church more regularly?

    I know you know the answer to this one, Amy.

    And remember that you’ve already emphasized at least one reason why church attendance is important:

    ..if that opponent [Bush] has staked much of his domestic agenda on the argument that civil society–and particularly religious congregations–holds the key to solving social problems…The implied and often explicit responsibility for each other that undergirds congregational life is at the heart of Bush’s faith-based policy agenda.

    Amy, it’s time for you to let go of that old, tired, and somewhat false ‘liberals and Democrats are anti-religion’ premise that you’ve pretty much built your career on. We’ve moved past the ‘God Gap’ that opened when conservatives began politicizing religion in the 70′s and 80′s.

  • destor23

    I wish he’d invited a bunch of scientists and philosophers over for a Rational Breakfast.

  • sacredh

    I just love these religion based threads. They make me want to go outside and cut the grass. Later folks.

  • sacredh

    Ftw.

  • apr2563

    grape_crush: Great link. Apology or correction Amy?
    Your Christian faith demands acknowledgement.
    Sorry for being so emphatic but I am so sick of the press and the right wing seeming to think they know the motivations and beliefs of liberals and trying to assign specific generalities to them.

    The posts here and everyday show how diverse we are. Liberals have and do not have religious beliefs. We do not blindly support Obama. We disagree on the Democratic agenda. Please give us that dignity Amy.

  • formerlyjames

    I think any outrage at Bush and not Obama by liberals would be that Bush used religious belief to justify his right wing agenda, including halting funding of stem cell research, hindering pro-choice, support of government interference in the emotional Shiavo case, waging pre-emptive war, support of capital punishment, and continued discrimination and persecution of homosexuals, and his in your face nature and use of religion to divide and conquer the electorate. Of all of that, Obama is guilty only of recognizing that America is the most religion crazed nation in the advanced and developed world, and he has to pay attention to it.
    ..
    I am atheist but read the bible for entertainment occasionally, but don’t think it is the word of god any more than I think the pope is infallible or that god talks directly to Pat Robertson or anybody else. But I am not “outraged” at religious people as some of it was ingrained in my culture growing up catholic (ingrained is being kind…branded and brainwashed would be more accurate). I am, however, offended when it is presumed that everybody is religious and holding hands and praying in secular places is imposed on me. When this first happened, I went along and just felt uncomfortable. Now, I will simply remain silent but refuse to participate, bow my head reverently or some other phony religious-type gesture.
    ..
    I agree with apr2563 and others that I only expect that religion be kept private, not imposed on others based on presumption, and not be used as justification for public policy.

  • formerlyjames

    sacredh,, I feel the same, but still have a fascination with it. Like watching a car wreck.

  • parodox

    apr2563 – You remind me of GW Bush. You read but do not understand. Please note I said beliefs, not religious beliefs. A president who praises the Aristotelian concept of the golden mean tells me as much about his/her beliefs and a president who espouses a biblical tradition. The difference is that the christian role model ate with tax collectors, harlots and samaritans. Aristotle lived in a closed and incredibly homogeneous society that tolerated slavery and pedophilia.

  • kbanginmotown

    Only you, sacred. Only you… ;)

  • apr2563

    paradox: OK?

  • deconstructiva

    Obama might not want to serve omelets and chicken since they’d argue over which came first: the chicken or the egg. Do serve plenty of mimosas, however (it’s too bad Amy can’t have those for awhile).

  • earljr1

    Why am I not surprised that so many of you from the left, profess non belief. Let me share an epiphany with you. I am a trauma surgeon and unfortunately, I have witnessed many deaths. Very few professed atheists, probably less than 5%, (if conscious) cross that great divide, without first asking for Gods mercy and forgiveness. I personally, say a prayer (out loud) before each operation I perform, asking God to grant me wisdom, skill and insight, to complete this task successfully. I know this would offend many of you, but if we succeed in saving your life, perhaps you will forgive me.

  • apr2563

    earljr: You are stereotyping and not bothering to read. You and freeper really need to take remedial reading. What most liberals are objecting to is the hypocrisy of the right. Please take a moment and read Grapes link. http://www.beliefnet.com/News/Politics/2004/09/Does-Bush-Go-To-Church.aspx?p=1

  • deconstructiva

    …Earl, if you need God’s help – instead of your own talent and training – to complete a surgical procedure then stay the hell away from me. Amen.

  • sacredh

    I agree with deconstructiva. If a doctor feels that he needs supernatural help to do his job, keep him/her the hell away from me. I’ll take confidence and ability any day of the week.
    .
    OTOH, I think most of us say a little prayer before a trip to the hospital. It goes something like this:

    Please God, don’t let them double charge me and pad the bill to line their pockets. Don’t let them call in half the doctors they know for a consultation that involves them just walking into the room and then walking out for $200. And while we’re at it Lord, if they really screw up, let me sue them for being incompetent for praying when they should have been concentrating. Amen.

  • earljr1

    april, read the commentary and the number professing atheism is quite profound. You even stated yourself that you no longer practice your faith. This is very sad to me. deconstuct, you will find FEW Doctors who do not believe in God. We are reminded everyday of his presence and contrary to your thinking, we WELCOME that presence. Should you ever need our services, I hope that our skill (with God’s help) can restore you to good health.

  • justmy02cents

    way to go Earl…stand your ground….

    BTW: I cannot find the part of your statement where you said you NEED God’s help, only that you ask for it…

    Another lefty trick by DUMPTRUCKIVA….insert words into the quote as if they were there and then respond to the inserted words…..

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Thomas Jefferson was a Deist and considered Christianity “perversion”.
    .
    Do a Google search for the Jefferson Bible. He edited the spiritual/miracle parts out with a pair of scissors.
    .
    When much younger, Lincoln said that he could not imagine an afterlife.
    .
    Between Lincoln and Roosevelt, there may have been some devoutly religious presidents, but our founding fathers, should you look for their quotes about religion, feared it more than adored it.
    .
    Most of American Christianity dates after the 1820s and the Great Awakening. Prior to that, one of the things people left behind in Europe was forced or coerced church attendance.
    .
    Also, note that the Great Awakening won over slave owners because there were parts of the bible they interpreted as being pro-slavery and Robert E. Lee, more than anybody else in the Civil War, was sure that he had God on his side.

  • apr2563

    earl: Reading comments on a web site of course gives you the data you need to determine the amount of atheism on the left. Your anectodal testemony of the belief systems of doctors of course is totally reliable.
    I would hope you would be able to give me the benefit of your skill without God’s help. If you fail, is that God’s fault?
    /
    As far as not practicing my faith, I left a church that has demeaned women and abused children. I grew up in that church and know its history, took the philosphy of social justice seriously, and respected my parents allegiance to the church.
    /
    Do I doubt the existence of God? Yes. So don’t be sad for me. I do not prostelize and am comfortable with my philosophy. Enjoy your beliefs but don’t condescend to those who don’t agree.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “8.4

    Patrick,

    sounds like a nerve was hit….”
    .
    I was running late for a meeting. I am not a bitter person at all.
    .
    I don’t go to any churches, but, if doing so inspires you to spend your free time building houses for the poor the way Carter does, I am glad you go to a church.
    .
    People like Carter do not necessarily inspire me to join a church, but, considering how old he is, it does make me feel a little lazy for not building a house (or, more specifically, joining a charity where I would, as he does, play a small role amongst many to build a house).

  • m0mentom0ri

    “Why am I not surprised that so many of you from the left, profess non belief.”
    .
    Why am I not surprised that so many of you on the right are theocratic religious fanatics?
    .
    See? Two can play that game.

  • deconstructiva

    apr, I’ve known firsthand over the years many who became atheists or agnostics but were from Catholic or evangelical families. But not other groups like Methodists or Quakers. I don’t know why.

  • jeriv

    Hmm… I totally disagree with your post.

    Bush wore his faith on his sleeve, and had the hubris to believe it was God’s mission that had put him in the White House.

    Obama wears some of his faith in his sleeve, although in orders of magnitude less than Bush, and has never stated that he knew what God’s Will was.

    Those are two very different expressions of religion by the two Presidents.

    Oh, and I also disagree on the statement:

    “In the process, he delivered statements of belief that would have outraged liberal critics if spoken by George W. Bush in the White House”

    You’re implying, very explicitly, that liberals are anti-religion. That’s pure bias at work.

    There may be polls that state liberals in general do not attend Church with the zeal that conservatives do. But that in no way means they are anti-religion. Or more specifically, that they do not have faith themselves, or respect faith in others.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “I realize from your past posts that you are in commercial real estate, but can you help me w/a clean safe reasonably priced studio in HK?”
    .
    Hong Kong?
    .
    I represent businesses looking for new office space to lease or buy in Manhattan.
    .
    I appreciate the request for my expertise but, residential places abroad I know nothing about. Sorry.
    .
    My job requires five things:
    .
    1) Being socially assertive (chutzpa, as some call it).
    2) The ability to converse and relate to total strangers (the gift of gab).
    3) Being good at simple math (price per square foot per year compared to monthly rent, etc).
    4) The willingness to understand a highly local market (Manhattan).
    5) The patience of a Saint, since (for all of us) most people do not follow through and move.
    .
    No PhD, MBA or anything like that required.
    .
    Nothing to brag about.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    You guys are a little over the top.
    .
    When I was an alter boy the priest was a good guy who loved football.
    .
    He, also, fell in love with a woman, vanished, left the priesthood to marry. He’s probably got kids in High School now.
    .
    3% pedophiles is enormously high compared to everywhere else in life, but, most Catholics never met a pedophile priest since 97% of them are not.
    .
    Gay priests are very common.
    .
    Think about it.
    .
    A dude can say that he is gay and have his family hate him or, he can say he wants to be a priest and his family considers him a hero.
    .
    Today everybody has an eye on the priest to see if he likes spending too much time with little boys. In reality, many of them prefer gay bars.

  • apr2563

    de: Being a questioning person, I left the church with much anguish. It doesn’t mean I am not still questioning. I want science to explain how something was created from nothing.
    /
    I recommend you watch the movie “Doubt”. Most people who saw it felt it was critical of the mother superior who believed the rumors about the priest.
    Watch closely the scene where the priests are eating the best food and the nuns were eating left overs.
    Also, the scene where the priest visits the mother superior’s office and he takes her chair as a given.
    The director of the movie said he meant for the movie to acknowlege the subserviant role of nuns and their challenge at having the male hierarchy listen to them.
    /
    As a woman, the church has told me that I can’t be a priest because I was not made in the image of God. Who would stay in that kind of institution? I can only guess many evangelical women leave their church due to the theocratic belief of male dominance.
    /
    The corruption of institutions only means the leaders are corrupt. The tenets of the church may be reasonably acceptable. I just haven’t found the tenets of any church based on myth as something I can believe in.

  • justmy02cents

    ps @ 8.9

    hells kitchen

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    A few years ago I broke my rib.
    .
    At the ER when I was asked my religion, I just said, “atheist”.
    .
    The person asking started to laugh.
    .
    Atheism is… amusing? If I said Hindu I guess I would have had him in stitches.
    .
    He explained that day after day he saw people who would pause and refuse to answer the question and just “pick any one”.
    .
    In a few other contexts I have heard this, too. Few “non-believers” or “godless” people like saying the word “atheist” or even “agnostic”.
    .
    What is an agnostic?
    .
    An agnostic is an atheist when he doesn’t want religious people to be startled.
    .
    There is social pressure to claim some kind of a faith in most societies including this one. ERs are not the best place to make that kind of a judgment.
    .
    There are enough atheist doctors for one survey I found in 30 seconds on Google.
    .
    “Atheist doctors are likely to practice medicine among the underprivileged than religious physicians, even though most religions call on the faithful to serve the poor, according to the results of large cross-sectional survey of US medical practitioners published in Annals of Family Medicine.”.
    .
    So, I have no idea who you know, but there are a significant number of atheist doctors.
    .
    Give me stats and about doctors and religions and I will value it much more than your personal experiences.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    LOL!
    .
    Yes, I can refer you to somebody great who just referred me some work.
    .
    My company is named Pari Passu.
    .
    You can locate me that way.

  • sacredh

    This is just my own semi-humble opinion and of course it may be entirely wrong, but I think the stridency of the religious right is on the rise because of demographics. We’re (whites) projected to become a minority by 2050. The US will have a greater collective number of minorities than whites for the first time in our history. Something that had always seemed impossible or at least a scenario for the far future is almost upon us. We can see it coming. It scares the crap out of some people.
    .
    It’s the same with religion. We have a larger percentage of atheists/agnostics than at any time in our history. Many of the younger people don’t attach the same importance to religion that previous generations did. We’re becoming a more secular society and the religious right hates that. I don’t think that it’s a stretch that secularists could hit 30% by 2050. If many young people today don’t live and breathe by the Bible, it’s easy to conclude that they’re not to teach their children that religion is the way. We’ve had churches close in my area that had been there for over 100 years. I live in the Bible Belt so I can imagine it’s even worse (better in my opinion) elsewhere.
    .
    Democrat or republican, it doesn’t matter. People that believe are going to believe and the trends are going to go their own way. My own personal opinion is that the more militant believers become, the faster they turn people against them.

  • sacredh

    Us? Over the top? I’m hurt.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    reeper,
    .
    I was living in a tough neighborhood of Boston named Dorchester with three roommates working as a package courier in the day, pizza delivery five evenings and Two overnight security shifts on the weekend when I was 26.
    .
    No, I was not even a limousine driver.
    .
    My Republican Great Uncle who is now 96 years old lives in the Hamptons, though.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    LOL
    .
    Over the years, I knew a huge number – I believe a majority – of Catholics who are liberal in politics.
    .
    If you caught me back in 1996 when I was driving a cab 92 hours per week, I was, at age 25, one of them.
    .
    I always found one hour to attend church.
    .
    Then, I grew out of it.

  • formerlyjames

    sacredh, just an observation on the minority issue. Religion is every bit as strident or more in minority communities as in white anglo ones.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Amen, my brother atheist!
    .
    I am the not an evangelical atheist like you, but, keep the lack of faith.
    . :D
    .
    Seriously, Sacred has got it right.

  • sacredh

    patrick, I’m not religious myself but I’m not anti-religion for anybody but myself. I’m very comfortable believing that my existence will end when my body dies. If anything, the thought of a continued existence (heaven or hell) scares me. As for eternity…no thanks. I’ll be 55 soon and I’ve had a great ride. It’s been fun and I’ve enjoyed the vast majority of it. I’m not interested in or concerned about what comes after. I like to be surprised. My parents never went to church and we never even had a Bible in the house (that I knew of). I have always been grateful for that. Sunday was always a time for recovering from Saturday night.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    I don’t personally object to our physician friend above praying out loud before operating. I’ll just note that his doing so is directly contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

    http://bible.cc/matthew/6-5.htm

  • sacredh

    formerlyjames: I agree. My wording just wasn’t all that good. On the other hand, the community where I live is 100% white. Being in an all white area wasn’t something I even noticed when I bought my house. The houses are all far apart, upscale and the view was spectacular. I’d lived here for over two years before I noticed it was all white. My wife pointed it out to me.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    reeper,

    I was hoping you could spew out more, random, incorrect and pathetic claims about me.

    It was in 1997 when I was 26 years old.

    I was reading a totally non-religious story about Rwanda.

    I, also, in college, was a communion minister. If you were Catholic and at the same church as me, if they didn’t have enough servers, then the one saying “body of Christ” to you was me.

    I didn’t go online for the first time until 1997 for the classes I paid for with my own money and, didn’t do so for work until 2000, didn’t have my own email address until 2001, didn’t have my own computer (since the Macintosh I bought with my own money in 1988) until 2003 and didn’t get involved with a blog until I came here.

    Yes, I am, also, pro-life.

    Bible thumpers didn’t push me away from being pro-life. They just pushed me away from religion.

    I went to a couple of meetings of the uber-Catholic Opus Day. No, they were not creepy. It just seemed like their eleventh commandment was “Thy shalt not be Interesting”. Uninspired, I thanked them and did not come back for more Sunday dinners.

    Sorry, your totally unfair, random an arbitrary stereotypes that I am either on welfare or have done anything other than work for a living simply are not true.

    You didn’t deny that you have 38 on your belt when you both preach your faith and preach how there shouldn’t be food stamps for the poor.

    You, have made it abundantly clear that, despite your faith that you want tax cuts over food stamps.

  • justmy02cents

    PS & Reeper,

    How about a compromise…..

    Lets say we cut taxes on small businesses who can then expand and create jobs that take food stamp recipients to a self-reliance that allows them to not need food stamps….

    does that work for anyone here?

    Ok does anyone else love the movie “Dave”?

    “give them a job and watch their face when they are handed their first paycheck”

  • earljr1

    april, if the patient dies, it is NOT God’s fault, it is his will. You seem like a nice person and I pray that God, once again, fills your heart with his love. Patrick, I predict that in spite of all your bluster, you, too, will seek God’s forgiveness when your moment of truth comes. I hope that you are conscious and able to express that wish. As stated previously, I have seen quite a few tough guys seek redemption just before their souls departed their body. It is a very scary time and you DO NOT want to make that journey alone.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Earl,
    .
    “tough guy”.. Okay, if you say so.
    .
    I came to peace with the idea that what is ahead is a long, dreamless sleep and to be no more.
    .
    My family finds that I, and two of my three siblings being atheist/agnostic acceptable.
    .
    More than or as much so as anybody with a religion, I wish to postpone that endless sleep as long as possible and in life wish to see that for others that they, too live long.
    .
    Thinking about Carter, though, does make me feel like I should go out on weekends and, while skipping the praying part, go build a house for somebody.
    .
    Forget politics, I don’t think of Carter as a great statesman, Carter is a wonderful person.
    .
    To me Bush just didn’t seem sincere in anything he said at all about any topic. That’s what I mean by the gun toting hypocrites. I, probably, don’t mean you.

  • earljr1

    I do not pray for show, paul, I pray because it helps calm me and allows me to better focus on my task. Having God present in that operating room, is NOT a bad thing, I can assure you.

  • apr2563

    Love the movie “Dave”. But, I love Kevin Klein.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Having Earl calm is a good thing.

  • justmy02cents

    apr,

    me too…do not get me wrong, but he is great and I LOVE the movie…

    I feel…..his portrayal in the movie is what I thought liberal/progressivism was all about….

    UNFORTUATELY it is only a movie and the reality disillusions the promise of the movie…

  • apr2563

    Just: I know. If only. I also loved the idealism of the West Wing and the American President.

  • justmy02cents

    apr @ 22.4,

    now you are talking…..WW was one of the best shows EVER.

    My youngest son (24) just “discovered” it and is watching it from start to finish via NETFLIX….

    When we talk about I can actually visualize the episodes from memory…..

    what a cast, what intensity …. West Wing deserves being designated as a classic…

  • oraclealexander

    No… just no. That’s every bit as ridiculous and bigoted as the homophobes who demand gays and lesbians not “flaunt” their sexuality in public. The president, like any other American, has a fundamental right to religious expression, no matter who is irrationally offended by it.

  • constantweader

    The President is not an ordinary citizen. He represents all the people, & he should respect the separation of church & state. How would you like it if the mayor of your town preached to you about her faith in Joseph Smith or Jesus or Mohammad during a public meeting. You’d be offended.

    And, BTW, there is nothing “irrational” about being offended by presidential proselytizing. Faith itself is by definition “irrational”; i.e., it means a belief in something for which there is no empirical, testable proof. It is, however, “rational” to oppose a head of state’s favoring one religion over another, which is what the President did. He “respects” other religions — don’t we all? — but he preaches his own.

    The Constant Weader

  • darkhorsewins

    Too many times Obama has shown himself to be a mangina who cares about women at the cost of men: http://goo.gl/4kcK

  • lcky9

    Guess they want to preach about God in D.C. not race baiting or race hating.. such a turn off for the anointed one.. don’t worry he won’t distract anyone who believes in someone more powerful than Obama..LOL.. He can stay at home and work on Moderating his drinking

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “He can stay at home and work on Moderating his drinking.”
    .
    In preference to you, who, apparently like to gulp down a bottle of Jack before blogging.
    .
    “the anointed one”
    .
    The term is “the elected president”, in preference to self appointed spokesman for god, the appointed one, your idol, Dubbya.
    .
    If you find Jesus, Icky, don’t run for office. Put Jesus back where you found him and go back to the hole you came out of.

  • oraclealexander

    You are correct in stating that POTUS is supposed to represent all of us. That doesn’t mean he should be devoid of all individuality. A person’s religion is an integral part of who they are. I’m a proud member of the Christian Left, and I’m happy to say my President is among those same ranks. That said, I would not feel any antipathy toward him if he were of a different faith and openly espoused it on or around its Holy Day. Anything less would be inauthentic. Of course he favors his religion over all others. That’s what everyone does. If you or I thought another’s religion or lack thereof was superior or even equal to my own, we wouldn’t practice or not practice it above all others. He was not “proselytizing” he was simply stating what he himself believed.

    Btw, faith is not the belief in something with no empirical evidence, it is, as the Bible states, the essence of things hoped for: in other words, not the belief in that which CAN’T be proven, but the belief that something WILL be proven.

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