The GOP Response to the Intimidation Campaign Against Democrats

In a press conference Thursday morning, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi addressed the spate of threats Democrats have faced over the past few days. Pressed by reporters on whether Republican lawmakers had incited some of those threats, Pelosi offered a measured response. “Words have power. They weigh a ton,” she said. But she also cautioned that crackdowns against such behavior could not impede free speech, and stressed that she didn’t want “to paint everyone who was part of the free expression that happened here with the same brush.”

It was a measured response to an intimidation campaign that has been nothing short of appalling. Death threats have poured in to the offices of Louise Slaughter and Bart Stupak. (You can hear what Stupak’s dealing with here. It ain’t pretty.) A propane line at the home of Virginia Democrat Tom Perriello’s brother was slashed, and in a gesture with less-than-subtle symbolism, a coffin was placed on Democratic Rep. Russ Carnahan’s lawn. More than 100 House Democrats met with representatives from the Capitol Police and FBI on Wednesday, and House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said at least 10 Democrats have been given enhanced protection.

Tea Partyers are scrambling to dissociate themselves with the fanatical responses to Sunday’s vote. The Tea Party Movement of Florida issued a press release Thursday that repudiated “any person using derogatory characterizations, threats of violence, or disparaging terms towards members of Congress or the President.”  Leaders of the Virginia Tea Party group that posted Perriello’s brother’s address, meanwhile, stated that they did not endorse what had happened.

Republican leaders have taken a different approach. On Wednesday, House Minority Leader John Boehner issued a perfunctory denunciation of the threats: “I know many Americans are angry over this health care bill, and that Washington Democrats just aren’t listening,” Boehner said. “But, as I’ve said, violence and threats are unacceptable.” The comment infuriated Perrello. “I thought it his statement was fairly outrageous,” he said. “Every right-thinking person knows this is over the line. These things have to be called out.”

House Minority Whip Eric Cantor also denounced the threats at a news conference on Thursday. “Let me be clear: I do not condone violence. There are no leaders in this building, no rank and file members in this building that condone violence — period,” Cantor said, noting that his own office had been shot at as well. But then he pivoted, excoriating DNC Chair Tim Kaine and Rep. Chris Van Hollen and arguing it was “reckless to use these incidents as media vehicles for political gain.” The tactic, he said, was “reprehensible.” And in an interview with MSNBC, Republican Sen. John Barrasso flashed the same sort of political pirouette: issuing a strenuous denunciation before lapsing into talking points. “There no cause for this. This is not something that’s acceptable,” Barrasso said, before launching into an explanation of how Democrats had betrayed Americans by ignoring the will of the majority.

To be fair, no Republican ever endorsed violence as a way to express opposition to health-care reform, and they undoubtedly regret what’s happened. On the other hand, many stoked anger over the past few months by employing staggering hyperbole over a document they cast as tyrannical and totalitarian. Boehner, for example, called the vote on the bill “Armageddon,” and said Ohio Rep. Steve Driehaus could be a “dead man” in his largely red Cincinnati district. I can understand if he and other Republicans are upset about being grouped with the extremists chucking bricks through windows. But by condemning violence and blasting Democrats in the same breath, Republican leaders implicitly validate the anger spurring these incidents. Instead of defusing the situation, this sort of response escalates it.

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  • slowp

    Why do Republicans hate America so much?

  • http://www.ghostnote.com Cookie Puss

    Shorter Rs: Please don’t resort to violence as Democrats steal your freedom and destroy America. Just what every paranoid wing-nut needs to hear.

  • deconstructiva

    Alex, we love to play spell check here, which is solemnly amusing given our own terrible spelling: Cincinnati. As for R’s endorsements, Sarah Palin is pushing it. I posted a link at Alex’s and Jay’s last posts about Sarah Palin’s “targeted” moves on her Facebook page so I won’t be pushy by posting a third time. (The palingates link has several good tv news clips.) Instead, here’s her page directly – yes, Sarah, I get the gun scope connotations, thanks –
    http://www.facebook.com/notes/sarah-palin/dont-get-demoralized-get-organized-take-back-the-20/373854973434

  • newfreedomblog

    Did you get information yet on Eric Cantor’s report he released that his Richmond Office on Monday had the window shot out by a gun?
    .
    Or, is this just a Democrat Party issue Alex, but it is ok if the liberal radicals, those far left liberal extremists we all know in the past have done all kinds of violent actions?
    .
    Do you think you will be reporting on attacks by the left on Republicans and Tea Pary Members? Or does TIME.com refuse to allow you to report on anything that looks bad for Democrats or Liberals?
    .
    Do you think that Democrats in their zeal to use the Tea Party protests over the weekend are fanning flames and wanting violence to break out across the country.
    .
    I was at the protests, and the Democrat Congressmen and women were clearly tauting protesters. Those same Congressmen and women were daring anyone to do anything at all.
    .
    Would you like some video on that Alex to post showing them taunting the Tea Party Protesters? How about Nancy Pelosi’s Capitol Police that she controls, would you like video and statements on how Tea Party Protesters were intimadated by them?

  • Paul-no not that one

    “To be fair, no Republican ever endorsed violence as a way to express opposition to health-care reform, and they undoubtedly regret what’s happened.”
    .
    Oh I wouldn’t go so far as to say I don’t doubt their regret.
    .

  • jpl9

    They are using the you made me hit defense.
    Have you seen this video of Rep. Steve King who appears to be slapping The Speaker of the House? I thinks it’s pretty incendiary.
    http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/steve-king-runs-dana-bash-when-questioned.

  • stuartzechman

    PNNTO:
    .
    I would have loved to have written that sentence.

  • destor23

    Well the anger is okay. Really. It’s fine for people to be angry about policy matters and to be angry at policymakers. It’s how they act that should concern us. Strong language is okay in my book. Even Palin’s gunsites are okay in my book — it’s just clip art.

    Fortunately the vast, vast majority of people will never cut a gas line or even throw a pie at Ann Coulter. Okay, maybe the first part is fortunate. But so long as people aren’t violent, I have no problem with anger and passion. I welcome it from all sides.

  • stuartzechman

    Very well said.

  • grape_crush

    Leaders of the Virginia Tea Party group that posted Perriello’s brother’s address, meanwhile, stated that they did not endorse what had happened.

    No, they just enabled it to happen, a pretty clear case of reckless endangerment.

    …”reckless to use these incidents as media vehicles for political gain.” The tactic, he [Cantor] said, was “reprehensible.”

    Members of his party publicly goading extremist right wingers to act up and Cantor is pi5sy because people are talking about it? That’s like the mother of a mugger blaming the assault victim for going to the police.

    I can understand if he and other Republicans are upset about being grouped with the other set of right-wing extremists chucking bricks through windows. But by condemning violence and blasting Democrats in the same breath, Republican leaders implicitly validate the anger spurring these incidents. Instead of defusing the situation, this sort of response escalates it.

    Had to add a bit, in order to make it exactly right, but you were pretty much spot on, Alex.

  • formerlyjames

    Like to guy who yells “FIRE” in the crowded theater regrets the crush of stampede but continues to yell.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “To be fair, no Republican ever endorsed violence as a way to express opposition to health-care reform”
    .
    Is the editor of Pajama’s Media Republican?
    .
    “In a blog post yesterday on the climate of threats surrounding health care reform, an editor and radio host employed by the Pajamas Media conservative blog outlet called for a return to the “fine tradition” of tar and feathering, and potentially even more extreme acts of violence.
    .
    In the post, titled “Put the Fear of Something Into Them,” Pajamas’ Denver Editor Stephen Green riffed on the recent threats and attacks on Democrats and concluded:
    .
    “If this abominable, unconstitutional, usurperous, injurious, unsustainable and ruinous new health care law has a mere ten legislatures afraid for their safety, then this country might already be too far gone to save itself.”
    .
    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/pajamas_media_editor_on_health_bill_lets_bring_bac.php?ref=fpb

  • newfreedomblog

    Is Rep Clyburn (D), and CNN inciting more violence in this video?
    .

    .

  • Alex Altman

    Thanks for the catch. Fixed.

  • jeriv

    I have to wonder. Are these incidents investigated by the FBI? Are the people committing these shameful acts being prosecuted? Are the instigators to these acts (TEA parties, Republicans) liable for inciting these crazy people to commit these acts?

    …when something truly regrettable happens, what sort of spin will the TEA parties and Republicans try to pull then?

    When you keep brainwashing your base into believing a bill is absolutely “evil”, exactly where do you get off later saying you have no responsibility for their desperate actions against the people you call “totalitarian oppressors out to kill your grandma”?

    I have to say it. The Republican party of today is a reprehensible joke. And the TEA parties are the phisical manifestation of the worst of the Republican party. Sad.

  • sacredh

    Let’s recap. The republicans painted healthcare reform as having it “shoved down your throats”. They called it Armageddon (nothing gives a hardon to the fanatics like their beloved rapture). They said grandma had to fight off “Death Panels”. They paint Obama as a socialist that probably wasn’t even born in this country. They say he pals around with terrorists. They say Obama is moving us toward a totalitarian regime. They call democratic candidates “dead men”.

    Exactly what else do they have to do except say “shoot the motherf*ckers” to provoke violence?

  • newfreedomblog

    Maybe this is the video that has sparked all the anger.
    .

    .

  • FlownOver

    Alternate GOP:

    “All we did was set a rabid timber wolf loose in an elementary school. How can the result be our fault?”‘

  • Alex Altman

    NewFreedom – I have updated post to note the incident at Cantor’s office. Thanks.

  • Paul-no not that one

    I remember when G Gordon Liddy made his “Head shot” comment on his not that widely listened to radio show there was actual revulsion.
    .
    Now members of Congress wink at or pooh-pooh actual violence against other sitting members of Congress.

  • Ivy_B

    These are the people who clutched their pearls and carried on for weeks because MoveOn bought an ad with a play on words on the name Petraeus.
    .
    Threats of violence, not so much.
    .
    To be fair, here is the article from the Richmond Times-Dispatch about Eric Cantor’s report. I appreciate his trying to cover all possibilities.

    Rep. Eric Cantor says this afternoon that a gunshot was fired through a window of his downtown Richmond campaign office building either last night or two nights ago.

    There were no injuries or other details immediately reported. Cantor, in an interview with the Richmond Times-Dispatch, said he doesn’t know whether the shot was random or aimed at the building.

    He said he doesn’t know if anyone was in the building when the shot was fired. Richmond police are investigating, he said.

    In Washington, Cantor said at a news conference that he has also received threatening e-mail, The Associated Press reported.

    Cantor, in Washington, attributed the actions to his being in the House GOP leadership and being Jewish.

    The ten threats being investigated by the FBI likely rise above threatening e-mails. Markos Moulitsas said he gets threatening e-mails every day – he posts a compilation on Saturdays – but only two actual death threats since he’s been running Daily Kos.

  • bobell

    Rusty, haven’t you heard that Cantor himself shot out that window so he could claim that the Dems were doing to Repubs as vice versa? Do we actually know that it was a gun? Maybe someone just threw a rock at the window very hard. Do you have a video of someone doing the shooting (or rock throwing)? Otherwise, how can we trust your version of events? Maybe it’s not even Eric Cantor’s office. Or maybe there is a film of it but it was faked. Or maybe there’s no such thing as reality. How can anyone be sure of anything. Hell, I’m not even bobell, whoever she is.
    .
    Violence breeds violence. The Republicans started this. That gives no license whatever to left-wing nuts to over-exercise their Second Amendment rights, but it helps to explain why some of them may be doing so.

  • stuartzechman

    Thanks so much for responding to commentary with updates, Alex Altman, it greatly enhances the value of your posts.

  • jeriv

    Agreed! I’m actually somewhat surprised this didn’t happen before the HCR law passed.

    And I’ll be surprised if something regrettable doesn’t happen now.

    I’m actually physically repulsed and disgusted by the Republicans of today. I may have disliked Bush (intensely), but at least the Republicans under him didn’t act like a hate group.

  • gysgt213

    “To be fair, no Republican ever endorsed violence as a way to express opposition to health-care reform”
    .
    Alex-You are seriously letting these people off the hook way too easy with statements like this. Of course they don’t endorse it. In order to do that they risk arrest because they would have to announce their endorsement in some fashion. The issue is not that they that they endorse it. However, they are inciting it with over top statements and using people’s fear and ignorance of basic facts. You know the basic facts your profession are suppose to ascertain for them.
    .
    Instead many of your profession have been so busy the past year linking to and passing on the latest Sarah Palin facebook mewlings to pay attention to what was bound to come to an eventual head.
    .
    “and they undoubtedly regret what’s happened.”
    .
    Undoubtedly what they truly regret is being called on behavior they now own, but has backfired on them.

  • FlownOver

    On further reflection, my apologies to timber wolves. I have smeared them – even the rabid ones – with the implied comparison to violent domestic terrorist thugs. The closer analogy (and Godwin’s Law be damned) is to the incitement to hatred employed in 1930′s Germany.

  • gysgt213

    “Did you get information yet on Eric Cantor’s report he released that his Richmond Office on Monday had the window shot out by a gun?”
    .
    Are you not the guy who needs video before you believe something?

  • http://fourlegsrgood.wordpress.com fourlegsgood

    Honestly, the only thing that is going to get their attention at how appalling this situation is (that they have egged on, in my opinion) is if the teahadists target and manage to seriously hurt someone on the GOP side of the aisle.

    And it’s possible they will – I think they’re feeling betrayed that the GOP didn’t stop the health care law.

    Only the GOP can put this genie back in the bottle. They need to do, and do it now. No ifs ands or buts.

  • deconstructiva

    Sacred, here are clips to p!ss us off, it’s that bad out there (sigh) –
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show#36027892
    (Stupak voice mails played here too)
    …and here’s the clip embedded in palingates link I posted earlier (Adam and Jay last posts) –
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/36010598#36010598
    Rachael calls out one RW’er by name, city, you name it. Good for her. Sometimes I want the swampwomen to get really royally po’ed enough with the RW’ers to do the same (but they’re so polite, so please don’t change just for us).

  • http://flounder73.wordpress.com pafro

    Is there any proof for your opinion that Paul flags in that quote?
    _
    Playing up to people who show up at political debates while brandishing firearms is definitely encouraging violence.
    _
    And there has been a long line of Republicans who frequent talk shows like G. Gordon Liddy’s. Liddy once said that if a government employee shows up at your house, you should shoot him in the head because he might have body armor on.
    _
    Encouraging people to think that the president is a usurper who was not born in this country is a way of suggesting that the government is illegitimate and therefore wearing “blood of liberty” t-shirts and fomenting revolution is okay.
    _
    This crap ain’t new, and Republican leaders have been playing it up for a long time.

  • ohiolib

    Well, a weak denunciation is better than none at all.
    -
    and they undoubtedly regret what’s happened
    -
    Actually, what they undoubtedly regret is getting heat for the domestic terrorists they’ve helped incite.

  • newfreedomblog

    Can we play a game called who is the worst in video, Alex? You know, play video of the Tea Party Protests from this past weekend versus videos of the Liberals who have protested in the past and compare?
    .
    Here is a video of a group of Liberals who attacked a group of Marines at Berkely, the University of California.
    .

    .
    A liberal who attacked and got into the faces of a group of Marines.
    .
    Here is a video of a liberal who tried to push, shove and call Tea Party protesters vulgar names egging them to fight back until the police intervened and arrested the liberal.
    .

    .
    I can also post many videos of the War Protesters and the G-7 violent protests if you would like too Alex.
    .
    But, I am still….STILL waiting to see the videos from anyone from this past weekend when the Congressional Black Caucas alledged racist remarks from Tea Party Protesters or of anyone spitting. Even any Barney Frank videos too!!
    .
    Do you suppose there isn’t any videos, Alex? Do you think that this entire outrage by the Democrats is nothing but a big scam?

  • newfreedomblog

    “Actually, what they undoubtedly regret is getting heat for the domestic terrorists they’ve helped incite.”

    .
    This is simply hillarious. When for the first time in known history, Conservatives protest they are called “DOMESTIC TERRORISTS”.
    .
    When Liberals protest, they are exercising their freedom of speech. Go figure.
    .
    Hey Nancy…..do you STILL think this is “Astro-turf”?

  • http://www.davesromanticpiano.com durangodave

    Last August during the first wave of tea party lunacy, I went to the office of my congressional representative, Pete Sessions. After expressing my support for healthcare reform to a staffer, I expressed my concern that the rhetoric being employed by Sessions and other Republicans could result in a Timothy McVeigh type attack. The staffer did not want to hear any more, and ended our conversation by walking out in a huff.

    Since that time, the rhetoric and instigation has only gotten worse. When does this behavior cross the line to sedition? No one in a position of authority on the left has said or done anything approaching this reckless behavior.

    If Republicans (not all of them, I know) secretly want another chance to fight the Civil War, and actively promote such ideas, I believe that would constitute treason. They certainly like to throw that word around a lot. I do hope the FBI is watching them closely.

  • http://flounder73.wordpress.com pafro

    Teabaggers are planning a “Second Amendment” March in D.C. on April 19th. The date commemorates the Oklahoma City Bombing by two right-wing terrorists.
    _
    How many of these Republicans that you claim to not “endorse violence” do you think will show up on April 19th?

  • stuartzechman

    pafro:
    .
    Did you read the sentence I praised carefully enough?

  • notfooledbydistractions

    Republicans are sore losers. With the help of their propaganda wings – fox and rush – they’ve been inciting violence since the start of this administration. They’re facillitating the escallation by their words at the teabagger rallies – they are active participants in this. Now that the monster is loose, they’re scattering like cockroaches in daylight avoiding any and all responsibility for the escallating situation.

    Do they honestly think that moderates and independents will gravitate to the republican party after watching their actions? Inciting violence and bringing the government to a halt with childish tactics.

    They’re provocing domestic terrorism, and then throwing up their hands when they’re called on it.

    Absolutely pathetic. I just pray no one is seriously hurt. If they are, the republicans are complicit.

  • Paul-no not that one

    I fear what they have planned for April 20th.

  • grape_crush

    To be fair, no Republican ever endorsed violence as a way to express opposition to health-care reform…

    Beck: What they’re about to pass is not a tumor. Because the doctor can come over here and say, ‘Yeah, there’s a tumor here, and we’ve got to go in and cut this out.’ I don’t know if you can cut this tumor out. Maybe not. But you can try.

    You can quibble over whether or not Beck’s a Republican or a teabagger, but as I stated earlier, there’s not much space between the two.
    .
    Right-wing eliminationist rhetoric isn’t a new phenomenon…Worth the read, when you have the time…from 2006:
    .
    http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/02/eliminationism-in-america-x.html

  • kevin

    Nah, not even that would do it. Any Republican killed would be seen as a RINO who had it coming.

  • grape_crush
  • Paul-no not that one

    Well as there have been a series of examples of Republicans endorsing violence, and we know the author has been reading the comments and updating his post, I will assume he meant ELECTED Republicans.

  • Tom in The Swamp

    Funny thing about Cantor’s statement… right after he complained about Democrats “fanning the flames”, he went to appear as the special guest on a conference call held by the “S.T.O.P. Obama Tyranny National Coalition”.

    http://bit.ly/aR30kE

    Talk about fanning the flames….

  • bobcn1

    When the gop encourages people to act like thugs at town hall meetings, and then crows about how town hall meetings have been disrupted, it’s a little late to claim that you haven’t been inciting the fringe to violence.

    ‘Pelosi offered a measured response.’

    Leading by example.

  • FlownOver

    I try to refrain from personal characterizations, but Jeebus, that Eric Cantor is such a pathetic douchenozzle!

    Also, I kinda want to see whether RoboModerator reacts to “douchenozzle.” Just because.

  • FlownOver

    Nope. Guess not.

  • gysgt213

    Also apparently a lier. His story about his office being shot at his falling apart fast.

  • shepherdwong

    “Well the anger is okay. Really. It’s fine for people to be angry about policy matters and to be angry at policymakers.”
    .
    Let’s discriminate a bit here shall we? There’s such a thing as righteous anger, the sort you might have if a loved one is intentionally harmed by another or, perhaps, by politicians taking the country into a disastrous, unnecessary war based on a pack of lies, or even the journalists who let them get away with it. The deal is, righteous anger can’t be based upon lies and slander, which is all the wingnuts really know.
    .
    One more thing. You’re judging the acceptability of public anger based upon your own relatively normal response to it. High right-wing-authoritarian-following personalities can react much more dangerously than you might imagine at much smaller provocations.

  • textee

    In his dutifully written press release for the leftist freakshow fringe, Alex Altman asserts that there is an “intimidation campaign against [Altman's poor, fellow] Democrats”. Alleged “intimidation” so-called “campaign”? ROTFLMAO!

    Also, predictably, Altman gasps: “A propane line at the home of Virginia Democrat Tom Perriello’s brother was slashed.” Will Altman be providing the name of the person who “slashed” the alleged “propane line”? Unlike those members of Congress who falsely alleged that they had been called “n!!!!r” and “f!!!!t” (or was it the other name for homosexual, to wit: “teabagger”?) will Altman be providing video evidence to support his allegation? Don’t bet on it.

    Not surpisingly, it only took one post from Altman to discern the fact that he is as militantly leftist and as virulently clueless as every other personality writing for Time magazine. Snoooooooozzzzzzzze ….

  • bobcn1

    ‘To be fair, no Republican ever endorsed violence as a way to express opposition to health-care reform…’
    .
    It’s not just the hyperbole of the gop that’s caused the problem. The republicans have explicitly encouraged the fringe to act like thugs at the town hall meetings of Democrats.
    They endorsed having their thugs to prevent the rest of us from having our say.

  • larry278

    This matter of tea baggers, right wingnuts & GOP types making threats toward Democrats & among themselves would be funny if everybody was fling gobs of liquid or soaking boluses of bovine scat at each other. But the neo-cons are making terroristic thhreats (as they say in NJ Courts) directed to Democrats, progressives & liberals (ie left wingers). Now there are instances of violence against leftists by rabidly, reactionary, neo-cons & right wing nuts. GOP types who incited this lawless, violence are now trying to cop a plea that they didn’t mean to incite violence against those of the center & lefistist persuasion. That doesn’t repair the windows rabidly, reactionary, right wingnuts broke at the offices of Democrats & orher leftists.
    What about racist chants directed at leftists & the saliva right wingnuts spat on members of congress.
    It’s far too little & much too late for the right wingers who incited this epidemic of violence directed at leftists to simper that the right wing rabble raisers “didn’t mean” to let the violence to get out of hand & turn in to an epidemic of violence.

  • navywings

    Good thing democrats don’t advocate violence huh?

    http://current.com/1nf0s4c

  • navywings

    “But by condemning violence and blasting Democrats in the same breath, Republican leaders implicitly validate the anger spurring these incidents. Instead of defusing the situation, this sort of response escalates it.”

    Shouldn’t you be applying your comment to both sides of the aisle? I mean, just to be fair right? You wouldn’t be the least
    bit biased would you? [note sarcasm]

    http://current.com/1nf0s4c

  • ohiolib

    A link would be great, here. gysgt.

  • aussifaire

    DEMS ARE THREATS TO PUBLIC SAFETY & FREEDOMS THRU HEALTHCARE….

    UNLESS THE PUBLIC FORCES DEMS TO REPEAL THE HEALTHCARE…. THIS IS WHAT AWAITS THE USA…

    THE USA PUBLIC & PARENTS will be forced to PAY FOR HEALTHCARE BY BEING CRIMINALIZED INTERNATIONALLY AND SOUGHT FOR PROSECUTION AFTER BEING DEPRIVED HEALTHCARE IF THE USA PUBLIC SEEKS TO FIND HEALTHCARE FOR THEMSELVES OR THEIR CHILDREN WITHIN OR WITHOUT THE USA BORDERS.

    SO….To the present it’s only one of the 1 % group of people attempting to destroy our Nation’s economic systems.

    WHY??? It was said to a WASH DC VIP—that the reason the Socialists think they will win this time and are doing this is because ACLU and their DEMS SLUGS — they don’t think American’s are ” smart enough” to care to let their fingers do the walking to protect their lands, their CONSTITUTION or their freedoms. The DEMS and ACLU don’t think the 99% of American’s will be ‘smart enough” to CARE about their country, their homes, their small business enough to kick the WASH DC SLUGS out and send them packing by way of Balagovich for NOT doing what is right to protect PUBLIC freedoms and the free enterprise system (ie meaning small business/med business) and rights.

    SO.. the DEMS & their ILK systematically have BANNED MYSELF and those whom seek to POST to inform public on healthcare —from even being allowed to post on websites—LEST the public find out the TRUTH ABOUT PELOSI & DEMS plans for the public.

    SEEK TO HAVE THE HEALTHCARE REPEALED..

    seek legislative and LEGAL action to get SOC HEALTHCARE & stimulus and bailout kicked out see American Center for LAW & JUSTICE OR GOOGLE the problems with socialized health care OR GOOGLE handsoffmyhealth.org OR GOOGLE bigGovhealth.org OR stoptheaclu.com OR Health science institute OR familysecuritymatters.org OR Alliance Defense

  • stuartzechman

    You too? Do you guys need reading glasses?

  • discostu570

    Pretty sure they hate our freedom.
    -
    Republicans can’t afford to do anything that’d take the wind out of their political sails. All they’ve got going for them at this point is bitterness and anger. They’ll say exactly enough to ensure that if somebody ends up murdered, they can claim they tried to calm people down. Otherwise they’ll continue to validate this in roundabout ways, and claim every outburst is just an ‘isolated incident.’
    -
    Every incident is isolated if you refuse to acknowledge the larger trend. The ignorance and racism of the Tea Party movement have been apparent for well over a year now, and I think it’s time the media stops letting Republicans get away with blaming these things on ‘isolated incidents’ and ‘fringe elements.’

  • shepherdwong

    Small surprise, your false equivalence is…false. “Democrats” (obscure bloggers not Congressmen and Senators) advocating violence:

    Let ‘em know that if they aren’t with you, they are against you, and will pay the price…It’s time to destroy the Republican Party.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    But so long as people aren’t violent, I have no problem with anger and passion.
    -
    Sure, of course.
    -
    But right now, we have “at least 10 House Democrats reporting death threats or incidents of harassment or vandalism at their district offices over the past week.” (link: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_03/023043.php ) As Benen points out, “What do Republicans expect to happen? They’ve told confused, misguided activists that health care reform is a “totalitarian” scheme that attacks our “freedom” and represents the “end of America as we know it.” The policy breakthrough is, as several GOP leaders have put it, “Armageddon.” It’s quite likely that most Republican lawmakers know that their over-the-top rhetoric is just a political gambit, and that their more insane attacks on the new law have no foundation in reality. But therein lies the point: their base doesn’t know that Republican officials are lying.”
    -
    Passion good. Violence bad. The GOP is inciting its tea-party base to violence. That is bad.

  • stuartzechman

    Do you want to clarify that?
    .
    High right-wing-authoritarian-following personalities
    .
    So…assuming for the sake of argument at the moment that most rightism is a pathological psychological condition, and not the freely accepted political ideology or cultural identity of autonomous adult individuals that is comprised of organized thoughts and (mis-) information, are you suggesting that some political speech would careen abruptly into “Fire in crowded theater” territory specifically because of its effective response engendered in perpetually edge-of-disturbed rightists at large?
    .
    Is rightist speech more dangerous than other speech, because of these pathological psychological tendencies?

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    Oh and as long as we’re talking about responsibility let’s not let the mainstream media off the hook. For months they’ve deliberately ignored these tactics. They knew those town halls over the summer were the results of Republican political operatives busing in thugs to intimidate Democrats. Of course, the truth wasn’t as exciting so all they did was report that citizens were angry rather than call Republicans out for their lies and propaganda. In fact, when the white house banned Fox News because they promoted propaganda, the media came to their rescue even though their sponsorship of these so called teabaggers proves they weren’t journalists but rather a political organization. Republicans have deliberately stoked this anger and violent reaction. They’ve been asked about it before but the media let them skate portrayng it as an accusation by Democrats and then they came along with their false equivalencies and claimed it happens on both sides of the aisle, as if that is even remotely true. They barely covered the Republican Congressman who called an admitted domestic terrorist a good American, they thought it was a hoot when Michele Bachmann wanted them to come to the capital armed and dangerous. Republicans have been burning Democrats and the President Obama in effigy for some time and now they want to act surprised and shocked that this is going on. The GOP has spent everyday since the election they lost painting Obama as Hitler or any other horrendous historical villian they could come up with so no one should give them a pass now.

  • shepherdwong

    “For months they’ve deliberately ignored these tactics.”
    .
    Oh, they’ve been letting “conservative” movement anti-government, anti-liberal, anti-Democrat propaganda and lies go uncorrected for a lot longer than that. Remember, “government is the problem”.

  • http://www.davesromanticpiano.com durangodave

    I always wonder when I see a post like this if the author is aware that the Caps Lock key is on, or is it more like a clueless driver traveling for miles with the left-turn signal on. Perhaps you have a leak in your tinfoil hat. Better fix that before the aliens eat your brain.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    What are you a nut job, If Dems were only 1% of the population how they hell did they ever get the majority? Why don’t you Beck wannabe loons and ditto heads follow rush to that foreign country he was headed to now that health care has passed.

  • shepherdwong

    Yes, and yes. Unless you think that there’s some equivalence in the way left-wing authoritarian-followers respond, even to much more egregious provocations.

  • npease

    Guess what GOP- you can’t yell “fire” in a crowded theater, either. If you’re confused about any other common sense decisions, please ask.

  • stuartzechman

    Would you object if SCOTUS found that statute that attempted to restrict rightist political speech fulfilled the compelling government interest test of strict scrutiny, on the grounds that conservatives were psychologically susceptible to violence from right-wing polemics?
    .
    Are you in favor of Canada’s speech restrictions, or is that a different kettle of fish?

  • http://flounder73.wordpress.com pafro

    Wasn’t referring to you Stuart.

  • grape_crush

    Shouldn’t you be applying your comment to both sides of the aisle?
    .
    Nope, because Obama – to whom those comments were directed – is smart enough and is mentally stable enough to understand that a metaphor is being used.
    .
    Goading right-wing fanatics with cries of ‘Armageddon is here!’ is not the same as suggesting Obama gets tougher with the GOP. That you are even trying to conflate the two doesn’t say much about you.

  • http://flounder73.wordpress.com pafro

    I think this guy is fake.
    _
    I used to do this at my local paper–I would write the teabaggiest post possible, and mix in a bunch of stuff about the Knights Templars and the the “Grays” and the “Lizard People”, and the Dixie chicks starting 9/11 the other teabaggers would be all excited and take me seriously.
    _
    It’s all about turning on and off caps at random times and “putting” random words “into” quotes.

  • shepherdwong

    I think that government restrictions on speech in this country are about as far as I’d care to go. It should be “social restrictions” that deter lies and slander that incite anger against politicians and government but that would require a mass media that was interested in harshly criticizing such rhetoric, much as Joe Klein and Josh Marshall have been doing since the McCain/Palin campaign veered into slanderous territory, though much more common and mainstream – think CNN, the Nightly News and MTP.

  • http://deadbrokediva.wordpress.com deadbrokediva

    Because Republicans are mentally ill. That’s not an opinion or meant to be funny. I remember during the election a scientific experiment was done on the brain waves of conservative Republicans and progressive Democrats. The results were that the brain areas of Republicans that regulate compassion and empathy and logic were shown to be far inferior to those of the Democrats. That’s why nothing they say makes any sense and their first line of defense is with guns and violence. They are mentally unstable people.

  • navywings

    in·cite
       /ɪnˈsaɪt/ Show Spelled[in-sahyt]
    –verb (used with object),-cit·ed, -cit·ing.
    to stir, encourage, or urge on; stimulate or prompt to action: to incite a crowd to riot.

    Sorry. Anyone who thinks GOP leadership is inciting violence is an idiot. To attribute instigation of violence to a particular word some GOP leader said is akin to accusing the SEIU of inciting violence because of pictures they published showing workers revolting. Stupid premise, stupid conclusion.

    Each person is responsible for their own actions. Just because police put a bait car out there doesn’t make them responsible for the criminal who steals it. Use your head people.

  • shepherdwong

    I should add that is a far cry from very mainstream news organizations actively participating in promulgating right-wing lies and slander as they did with Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry, the Iraq War, the Plame affair, FISA, torture, etc. etc.

  • jimsmi2000

    Violence is going to be the only thing these idiots have left. None of them have enough sense to realize the only option is to win elections.
    If you don’t like how things are you change them thu an election.

    Obama did exactly what he campaigned on

    They have gone stark raving mad and no one in their right minds should elect them to be dog catcher let alone any significant office
    Not realizing it but being a shrinking minority makes this nearly impossible to be elected so their only option, try to intimidate your opposition

  • stuartzechman

    Thank you for the clear response, but just one more thing:
    .
    I think that government restrictions on speech in this country are about as far as I’d care to go.
    .
    Why?
    .
    Why wouldn’t we want to keep ourselves from being harmed by rightists, if we knew with such certainty that rightist speech was as dangerous as shouting “fire” in a crowded theater?
    .
    Wouldn’t the state have a compelling interest in protecting conservatives from being agitated beyond their control (due to their high right-wing-authoritarian-following personalities), and in protecting everyone else from the ever-present possibility of violence from agitated rightists?
    .
    Shouldn’t the Republican party be stopped by force of law from shouting “fire” in a crowded theater of Tea Party activists or anyone who showed signs of “high right-wing-authoritarian-following personalities”? Isn’t that the state’s duty?

  • stuartzechman

    Thanks for the clarification, pafro, I was worried for a minute, there.

  • kevin

    When for the first time in known history, Conservatives protest they are called “DOMESTIC TERRORISTS”.
    .
    No, when conservatives cut the gas lines at one congressman’s house, and warn another congressman that “snipers” are going to be targeting her children, and send pictures of nooses to other congressmen, and drop a coffin on the lawn of yet another congressman, they are called “domestic terrorists.”.
    .
    And if you don’t think they deserve to be called “domestic terrorists,” let me refer you to a piece of legislation called The Patriot Act, which helpfully explains what the law considers “domestic terrorism”:
    .

    (5) the term `domestic terrorism’ means activities that–

    `(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

    `(B) appear to be intended–

    `(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

    `(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

    `(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

    `(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.’.

  • Ivy_B

    One of the commenters on the Times-Dispatch website said that the incident was reported on Fox News on Monday. For some reason Cantor didn’t choose to do a press comment until today. They also question why it was simply reported to local police.

  • kevin

    I’m sure you’ll claim that’s not in the Patriot Act, Rusty, so here’s the link:
    .
    http://epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html
    .
    Scroll down to SEC. 802. DEFINITION OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM.

  • kevin

    Here’s the report from the Richmond Police Department:
    .

    The Richmond Police Department is investigating an act of vandalism at the Reagan Building, 25 E. Main St., Richmond, Virginia. A first floor window was struck by a bullet at approximately 1 a.m. on Tuesday, March 23. The building, which has several tenants including an office used by Congressman Eric Cantor, was unoccupied at the time.

    A Richmond Police detective was assigned to the case. A preliminary investigation shows that a bullet was fired into the air and struck the window in a downward direction, landing on the floor about a foot from the window. The round struck with enough force to break the windowpane but did not penetrate the window blinds. There was no other damage to the room, which is used occasionally for meetings by the congressman.

    .
    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/documents/2010/03/incident-report-on-richmond-virginia-vandalism-32310.php?page=1

  • navywings

    So Kevin, since Democrats are doing the same violence, what’s your point? Do we need to go through ALL the news in history and list each terrorist activity by every citizen who ascribed to a particular party total it up to see which side wins?

    Get over it.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20001168-503544.html

  • newfreedomblog

    Oh dear God, NOW the libtards are quoting the Patriot Act. Go figure.

  • shepherdwong

    “Why wouldn’t we want to keep ourselves from being harmed by rightists, if we knew with such certainty that rightist speech was as dangerous as shouting “fire” in a crowded theater?”

    The price of liberty? (I’m not being flip).
    .
    Look, what we’re talking about is much more subtle than directly inciting violence against government officials (“shouting “fire” in a crowded theater”), which is already illegal. Much of it is dog-whistle*. But the mainstreaming of anti-government propaganda – the opposite of JFK’s “ask not what your country can do for you…” call to civic engagement is a national disgrace and a big part of why these people feel so aggrieved and why those on the far end of the RWA bell curve can justify actual treason. If people simply heard that that was a deeply unpatriotic sentiment regularly from the public square and, at the same time, that lies and slander against particular, mostly Democratic, politicians was unacceptable, I doubt that people would be rallying on the Mall with signs decorated with “Fire Line” tape and the President as Adolph Hitler.
    .
    *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater

  • newfreedomblog

    Actually what is being planned is an APRIL 15th, 2010, Tax Protest. Want to get your liberal lies straight?

  • navywings

    @newfreedomblog

    You’re right. Pretty funny when liberals resort to quoting the Patriot Act….lmao

    Was that a pig that just flew past my window? Holy crap it was….

  • kevin

    Oh no. You called me a “libtard.” That totally negates the fact that what we’re talking about here is, in fact and in law, “domestic terrorism.”
    .
    Why do you keep posting here? All you do is make an embarrassment out of yourself time and time again. If I were a conservative, I’d think you were a plant sent here by DailyKos to make all conservatives look like mouthbreathing morons.

  • navywings

    First, there is NO LAW anywhere in the US against shouting “fire” in a crowded theater, so dispel that myth. I challenge anyone to post a statute and a link to counter my claim.

    The fire in a crowded theater overused argument soley depends on the intended outcome. It’s good to yell it IF there’s an actual fire and bad to yell it if not. So don’t use that anecdote to base your “logic” on.

  • apr2563

    Dee you are so right. I think many of us on this site have voiced our concern about the traditional media not understanding the seriousness of hate radio and Fox rhetoric.

  • newfreedomblog

    We shall remember and we shall vote to kick the bums in control of Congress out of office in November my friend.
    .
    Count on it!!

  • kevin

    What evidence should we use then?
    .
    Conservatives here wave away links that come from liberal or independent sites because they’re clearly biased. So I thought I’d use something that not only happens to be the law of the United States of America, and its most recent definition of domestic terrorism, but something whose authors could clearly not be dismissed as “liberals.”
    .
    But that’s not good enough for you? Jesus Christ, you have nothing. Absolutely nothing but your hate for your fellow citizens and your utter stupidity.
    .
    Laugh all you want. I can assure you the FBI isn’t.

  • stuartzechman

    The price of liberty?
    .
    Fair enough.
    .
    the mainstreaming of anti-government propaganda
    .
    I don’t think that you mean “anti-government” propaganda, do you?
    .
    Doesn’t anti-NSA surveillance or anti-foreign occupation or anti-abortion restriction rhetoric fall into that category, too?
    .
    Isn’t Ann Coulter’s 2003 book “Treason” precisely opposed to the “deeply unpatriotic sentiment” from liberals during the years when the rightists were in full control of the Federal government?
    .
    Don’t liberals have an obligation to regard the state with high suspicion, and to protest loudly against its wrongdoings in the most stark terms…say, if it were found that the government were secretly abducting people and torturing them (I know, that would be impossibly crazy to imagine), for example, wouldn’t it be reasonable for protesters to hold up a sign portraying the Gestapo?

  • navywings

    Okay Kevin, since you want to quote the Patriot Act (it really is funny since liberals were the ones so up in arms over its passing), class is now is session.

    (5) the term `domestic terrorism’ means activities that–

    `(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

    `(B) appear to be intended–

    `(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

    Any act you’ve cited was towards an INDIVIDUAL and was not to coerce a population. They were retaliatory in nature since the measure has already passed.

    `(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

    Again. The acts were against individuals who work for the government. What policy were they trying to influence? It already passed.

    `(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

    Nope. No mass destruction, kidnapping that I’ve seen.

    `(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.’.

    Yes. They did happen here.

    So no, your categorization of the individuals as “terrorists” is not correct. If we accept your categorization, then things such as riots after an unpopular court decision would also be categorized as “terrorist” acts rather than strictly criminal acts.

  • shepherdwong

    “I don’t think that you mean “anti-government” propaganda, do you?”
    .
    Generally, I mean exactly what I write. “Government is the problem” and it’s “taking over the health care system” so that Democrats can “pull the plug on granny” is anti-government propaganda. The “government has overstepped the limitations of the 4th Amendment by siphoning up all of your email and web browsing” or “is mandating that you buy health insurance from the same corporations who are currently killing their customers” is not. The truth of it matters a great deal in whether it’s 1) acceptable discourse, i.e., lies are bad and 2) whether its’ propaganda. What don’t you get about this distinction?

  • bobell

    Hey, navywings, about that first alternative, “(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population,” has it occurred to you that the Democratic party is a civilian population, as for that matter is the smaller population known as those who voted for the HCR bill.. These domestic terrorists have targeted people who voted for or favored that bill. Has it not occurred that getting your office windows shot out, or having a brick heaved at your home, or having someone cut your propane line is intended to intimidate and coerce a lot more people than just the immediate target of the action? That’s the whole point, no?
    .
    Regardless of which side of the argument a given terrorist takes, if he’s trying to bully the other side into submission with actual criminal acts, he’s a terrorist. They’re all scum, and I’d like to see the lot of them captured and shipped off to a long stay in prison. For various Republicans to denounce them in one breath and then express sympathy for them is just as scummy as what these terrorists are doing.

  • stuartzechman

    What don’t you get about this distinction?
    .
    When you don’t make that distinction clear as perfect daylight, nobody’s going to necessarily get it, except the people who think with your exact thoughts.
    .
    So the fact that the rhetoric is in opposition to government is secondary to the fact that it’s foully dishonest.
    .
    That’s not clear from simply writing “the mainstreaming of anti-government propaganda,” and then bringing JFK’s rhetorical flourishes into it.
    .
    One can vigorously, yet honestly oppose “ask not what your country can do for you…” without engaging in “anti-government propaganda,” according to you, and so that’s perfectly reasonable.
    .
    It seemed there for a moment to me that you were conflating opposition to “JFK’s call to civic engagement,” which is an ideological position, with “Democrats can “pull the plug on granny”” which is a despicable lie.
    .
    I see now that you meant that “The truth of it matters a great deal,” in describing anything as “propaganda,” whether pro- or anti-government.

  • bobell

    My God, Rusty, don’t you know anything?

    http://c2.api.ning.com/files/UMI256CUhbU555TZ23hDBKNEsmVcWuHapGfhB*475Dmn5WmOmzyQN4miZHLDgm0Yw9spFsfNDaEeGwjncKPG9974D*dJBFdJ/RestoretheConstitutionFlyer2sided.pdf
    .
    I happen to have lived for many years within a couple of miles of Fort Hunt, which is (as I recall) a county park, not a national one (as the article says) and is ordinarily a pleasant place to picnic, play some softball, toss a frisbee, and get a tan on a sunny day. To have a bunch of armed loonies marching around would be enough to drive me far away for the day if I still lived there.
    .
    But the point is that it took me less than a minute to find the article in issue. I haven’t bothered to look up your April 15 thing, whatever it is, but I’m confident it has nothing to do with the Fort Hunt conclave.
    .
    I was so proud of Virginia as we elected Democrats to the governorship and our two Senate seats and went for Obama in 2008. We were almost into the 21st Cehtury, I thought. And now we have a bunch of Republicans back in charge of the state (though not yet in the Senate, thank God), and it’s full speed back to the 19th. I’m planning to retire in a few years, and I’ll be getting the hell out of Virginia as soon after that as I can. I’d leave now but I can’t get health insurance in any other job.

  • shepherdwong

    You got it (sorry if I was unclear).
    .
    This is why the failure of the press is so extreme and destructive. Their very job is to identify the important truth to the public, which, in the presence of obvious lies and distortions, makes their job clear. That they’ve completely abdicated that responsibility for fealty to “conservative” politicians – or, at least, the two-party horse race – has been a major factor in the dangerous coarsening of our civic dialogue.

  • shepherdwong

    Actually, I think I made the point very clearly in the original comment:

    …righteous anger can’t be based upon lies and slander.

  • navywings

    @bobell

    By your logic, you could extrapolate ANY crime to that of one intended to influence a mass of people. You need something more than just conjecture. If the bill was still being considered, you might have a point. Since the bill had already passed, it’s straight forward to say attacks are retaliatory towards individuals. If evidence in the form of say a note saying a person was targeting a GROUP of people were found, you might have a case.

  • stuartzechman

    I know that you thought you were being clear, which is why you got slightly aggravated (LOL), but bringing JFK into it is what threw me.
    .
    Thanks for over-explaining for the benefit of the obtuse.

  • bobell

    @navywings — The actual phrase used by Justice Holmes, in his opinion for a unanimous court in Schenck v. United States, was “falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic.”
    .
    And no, it is not judged solely (note spelling) on the outcome. There are laws against giving false alarms, and they apply to a lot more than pulling the handle on a mechanical alarm.

  • http://www.apeelsolutions.com apeelsolutions

    I am a British person married to an American with US family. I have a strong affinity to your country. I have been to both the East and West coast.

    When youe country elected President Obama I knew it would be a breaking point for your country. We live in the era of PAX AMERICANA – whatever America wants America gets, by negotiation or force of arms.

    We did exactly the same with the British Empire so let there be no misunderstanding. You are the world’s dominant super power however are you the best people to have that power?

    The problem is you are an extremely young country and have failed to go through the period of time for real nationhood to be ingrained and accepted.

    The sad thing is there is no such thing as an ‘American’ there are Americans. You have for example The Republic of California. What other single nation in the world has separate republics, well Europe did in the Middle Ages, but since then they have struggled into a single nation.

    The time when America does become a nation is when you are threatened from outside. Which is sad.

    What you fail to see is you are tearing yourselves apart giving yourselves what every other decent Western civilized country has – decent healthcare.

    The fracture in your nation is all about President Obama and nothing to do with Health Care. You have let your worst fears from your darkest past out of the genie bottle and half the country simply cannot stand the thought of a non caucasian running the country.

    This will be you test as a nation and if you fail it then the rest of the world will be a poorer less safe place.

  • navywings

    @bobell

    Your point? Nothing I said was incorrect. The original post said it was illegal to yell it. I stated it was not illegal IF there was an appropriate cause…i.e. there was an actual fire. Again…there is NO law stating you cannot yell “fire” is a crowded theater. So yes, it is outcome based. Did you pull the alarm because there was a fire or not? Not, it’s illegal, yes, it isn’t.

    If I need to lead you through to the logical conclusion of “falsely” I can, but it looks like you discovered it on your own. Nice job.

  • navywings

    @apeelsolutions

    You are so off base on so many levels I hardly know where to begin. Yes, a country can have universal healthcare but there’s a price. If we want a marginal tax rate of 60% like the UK, sure…we can have universal healthcare.

    As for how young our country is, look where we’ve come in 300 years compared to the UK. You’ve been around for a much longer time and haven’t even come close to what the US has accomplished.

    We have “decent” healthcare. As a matter of fact, it’s outstanding. What liberals define as “decent” means everyone, whether or not they contribute to society, can get something for nothing and those that do contribute pay for those who don’t.

    Your observation this is “all about Obama” is anecdotal at best. It’s not for me, it’s about the very principles I stated previously. I could care less who’s in office, if they attempt to subvert our Constitution and my rights, I will protest just the same.

    Caucasian. Funny you throw out the race card. Define it. Color of skin ancestry, what is exactly caucasian? If you say it’s race, then Obama is predominately Caucasian. If you say color of skin, then just how dark does one have to be before they’re not caucasian?

    It’s general knowledge he’s 50% Caucasian, 43.75% Arab, and 6.25% African Negro. To trivialize our society’s method and matter of protest shows you still have much to learn about us. Not surprising Britain lost to us.

    If we fail the rest of the world will be poorer and less safe? WTF? You’re a prime example of liberal voters. All emotion, zero data.

  • http://forgottenlord.livejournal.com forgottenlord

    Wasn’t there a Republican Senator that practically, from the floor, prayed that one of them wouldn’t make it to the floor the next morning on the eve of the Senate vote?

  • carpevis

    The difference between the teahadists and the liberal eco-terrorists is that the teahadists target people for death, destruction and injury. The eco-terrorists target property for destruction.

    But here’s the bottom line: Neither side is right to destroy or hurt people in the name of whatever they believe in. Just because the left doesn’t kill people intentionally (by and large), doesn’t make them any better.

    Trying to whine the the “media doesn’t cover the left terrorists” doesn’t make the conservative’s side any better, either. If you’re going to bitch about things, try this: Make sure your side doesn’t go off and kill abortion doctors in church, bomb abortion clinics – with the people still inside no less, bomb federal buildings and call for armed insurrection against the federal government on a daily basis FIRST. THEN you can take the moral high ground and will have made some kind of point.

    But right now, your side is the kettle calling the kettle black and you haven’t a moral leg to stand on or even a quantum of reasoning in your argument.

  • heavypetter

    Really GOP?

    Are you going to create a martyr?….is this amatuer hour? JFK gave us the great society via LBJ. Be it debate or bullets, you always find a way to F it up…..

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    deadbrokediva,
    I am usually saying this to Tea baggers, but, I hope you can find a link to this.

    I have seen studies saying two different things:
    1) in an experiment involving reacting to things viewed on a computer screen, people calling themselves “conservative” had much worse reaction time indicating lower ability to reaction to change.
    2) Conservatives have a greater reaction in terms of blood pressure and heart rate to pictures of war and destruction meaning that they are more emotional and react with fear quicker and more strongly.

    What you have indicated is more serious.

    I grew up in a reasonably conservative place and do not think that conservatives lack empathy.

  • navywings

    @heavypetter

    Yeah…really great society. Please, when you get a chance, educate me on one successful and SOLVENT social program. Seems like liberals are the ones screwing the pooch.

    Oh wait. You’re a liberal. To you, successful is getting something for nothing. Okay, forget “successful,” I’ll settle for solvent.

  • carpevis

    Cross-hair clip art is one thing, but to a mind believing the kind of incendiary, over-the-top rhetoric the Republicans have put out there over the last year, it’s a suggestion.
    .
    And a strong one.
    .
    SOMEONE is going to die over this and that will be entirely due to the GOP playing hardball politics with the minds of the American people. You can’t expect everyone to act rationally when you’re using words like “the ending of America as we know it” and an “Armageddon” and a “shift to socialism”.
    .
    I had the misfortune to be listening to Bill O’Rielly on Fox News and he was all but calling for an armed insurrection against the federal government. (“Get on the phone. Call your congressman now. Do whatever you have to do to get your message to them to keep this bill from passing” – or words to that effect. Throw in things like “Obamacare, “Socialist agenda”, and “take back America” constantly being tossed about and you paint a pretty strong suggestion that violence is the only way to achieve their goals.)
    .
    PEOPLE, in general, aren’t bright enough to figure out that you’re just posturing, trying to get ratings and keeping your network solvent for another quarter.
    .
    I don’t have a problem with people being passionate about their beliefs and opinions. This is the United States of America and people have the right to protest. But they must do it peacefully, without violence, death or destruction.
    .
    And I don’t believe the GOP is capable of getting the message of peaceful protesting across to their rank and file.

  • kevin

    Ooooh, class is in session!
    .
    While you’re parsing those three subsections, navywings, you might want to notice that the conjunction there is “or,” which means only one of those definitions has to apply.
    .
    And yes, this part is perfectly applicable:
    .

    (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion;

    .
    The timing of the legislation doesn’t matter, and never has in legislative statutes referring to the intimidation or coercion of government officials. There’s a case law a mile long on this.
    .
    But even if it did depend on that, HCR wasn’t a settled issue when these events happened. Two of them were prior to the Sunday vote, and the rest came between that vote and tonight’s vote on reconciliation.
    .
    But, hey, thanks for taking me to class. I’m surprised you could find the way since it’s clear you never got past the third grade.
    .
    Here’s the bottom line — people are making violent threats and violent acts against elected officials, their families, and their children. You can either parse words like a godd@mn weasel, or you can stand up and say this is wrong.
    .
    The fact that you choose the former speaks volumes about your character. Or, I should say, your total lack of one.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    New,
    ..
    Your first video showed a showdown, apparently, in Berkeley where one person was out of line on the progressive side and the Marines were a little bit hostile, too.
    It is highly edited.

    For your second video, in the first four minutes, there was a lot of editing.
    There was
    There was.
    There
    There
    There was a lot of editing going on.

    I was expecting somebody to start rapping.

    I guess that they couldn’t find a black Republican rapper.
    A black
    A black
    A black
    A black
    A black Republican rap
    rap
    rap
    rapper.

  • stuartzechman

    As a liberal, I’ll settle for health care being considered an infrastructure issue, just like roads and clean water, so that more of us (lefties) can go be the entrepreneurs we can and want to be, without sacrificing our babies’ doctors in the process.
    .
    It’s too bad you can’t see the value to the free enterprise system if all the talent trapped at health-insurance jobs were freed up.
    .
    The Japanese can. The Germans can.
    .
    We should.

  • navywings

    @Kevin

    Oh you’re good. Got me on a spelling error. Guilty as charged. That’s what liberals do when they lack substance. They go for the minutiae. Shall I define that last word for you?

    Yup…people make violent threats. Law enforcement deals with it as appropriate. For liberals to classify it as a “GOP thing” is idiocy since we can find liberal violent acts as well. So like I said in a previous post, shall we just tally them up and declare a winner? Will that make you feel better?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    The first time!

    Joe Stack, a suicide bomber in Austin Texas – the first post I was involved with not long ago.

    Eric Rudolph 1996 Olympic Park bombing.

    Timothy McVeigh, Oklahoma City Bombing.
    ….
    Newfreedombra has selective amnesia!

    We have not had a leftist group acting like terrorists since I was in diapers and Richard Nixon was the president!

    How much longer until we get the FBI to work on domestic right wing terrorism?

    Will they have to kill Obama?
    Pelosi?
    Reid?

    BTW: Newfreedombra, before you make any jokes, Obama will have his face on a bill if he is assassinated, just like JFK.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Just like JFK has his face on the half dollar coin, that is.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Textee,
    I noticed a similarity.
    Are you and Aussiefire both in the same mental ward or have a previous relationship?

  • navywings

    Good thing the Democrats had fine, peaceful, upstanding citizens like Malcolm X. Of course he would have never fit the definition of terrorist by the Patriot Act.

  • kevin

    Oh you’re good. Got me on a spelling error. Guilty as charged.
    .
    Not a spelling error. A reading comprehension error.
    .
    That’s what liberals do when they lack substance. They go for the minutiae.
    .
    This discussion began with Rusty insisting that the tea party actions should not be called “domestic terrorism.” I responded by citing the federal government’s current working definition of “domestic terrorism” and arguing that it applied to these actions.
    .
    And then you piped up, arguing that Democrats do the same thing, or that the Patriot Act definition doesn’t apply because a liberal read it to you, or that the Patriot Act’s definition is wrong because you tried to parse the language and failed.
    .
    Which one of us is caught up in minutiae?
    .
    Death threats and acts of violence are wrong. I’m not sure why that’s so controversial to you. You can either agree with that point, like a civilized human being, or you can try and weasel your way out of that all you want.
    .
    If you do, though, you won’t convince anyone here of anything, except for ther fact that you’re a pathetic excuse for a human being.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Wings,
    I brought up Stack, Rodolph and McVeigh.

    Please show me one – one – terrorist act done by progressives or – let me go to the extreme – Americans all the way from supporting middle of the road Joe Liberman all the way to the communist party since 1980.

    Believing that you are saving Jody Foster does not count as being politically liberal, either since McVeigh didn’t think he was playing a video game when he killed hundreds.

    Once you do, your statement can be justified.

    Otherwise you are just ignoring that Obama talks like a newscaster, not a rabble rouser. (Biden talks , but has more gaffs when he is off script… but not a rabble rouser).

  • kevin

    So like I said in a previous post, shall we just tally them up and declare a winner? Will that make you feel better?
    .
    First, I doubt you could find 10% as many death threats sent to Republican congressmen in the past two years as have been sent to Democrats. But go ahead and try. You insist it’s out there, try.
    .
    Second, if you do find them, I will denounce each and every one, and I will drive from my party any politician who has been egging people on to make these sick kinds of attacks.
    .
    Unlike you, my loyalties to my political party rank way, way below my sense of common decency and humanity.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Aussiefaire andTextee are gay lovers at the same asylum, but their medications wear off at different times of the day.

    Textee thinks the Food Channel and Entertainment Tonight are Marxist organizations.

  • navywings

    @Kevin,

    Hmmm. Never said violence was right or acceptable. So given that, we do agree on something. Where we disagree is classifying an individual act as a terrorist act. I disagree it fits the definition of “terrorism” and you believe it does. Since we’re not in a courtroom and not the decision makers, safe to say we can agree to disagree.

    My overall point is, ascribing to a general class, characteristics based on a few whack jobs is wrong on both sides of the fence. Because Malcolm X chose violence as his preferred way of bringing about “change” doesn’t mean I label the Democratic Party as promoting violence.

    Anyone who generalizes a party based on violent acts of a few, is, IMHO an idiot.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I agree with you about most of your conclusions, but I am very reluctant to take advice from somebody who conquered my ancestor’s homeland and made life so miserable there that 90% of Ireland had to escape.

    If you let a Catholic be PM legally, then you will be close to where we are with Obama.

    Although your country has far better education, I am very happy to know that we are not England and do not have an empire of democracy at home and racial and ethnic oppression abroad.

    As an outside observer, I welcome your observations, but, please do not ever ask us to repeat some of the tyranny you brought.

    Slavery was a very British import.
    Thanks for the racial problems.

  • navywings

    Greenpeace and Sierra Club. I think they qualify quite nicely. Greenpeace is listed as an Eco-terrorist group! Hell, even the violent conservatives don’t get a “terrorist” attached to their name. I don’t have enough room to list all their attacks against ships and people.

    And the Sierra “Club” with their fashionable “tree spiking.” Yup, no intent on harming loggers there.

    And you “progressives” get your panties in a wad over a coffin on a lawn? Give me a break.

    Progressive is only a code word for those who have no identity.

  • bobell

    navywings — Has it occurred to you that what these shootings and acts of vandalism are intended to convey is the message “You’d better not do THAT ever again”? Is that retaliation or intimidation? Feel free to consult a dictionary.
    .
    As for shouting “fire” and “intent” and all that stuff, you show me your law degree and I’ll show you mine, and then we’ll talk.

  • stuartzechman

    Jesus Christ, patricksartor, how much more prejudicial can you get?
    .
    People are individuals, and not responsible for their entire nations’ histories, that’s what Americanism is all about. You should know that.
    .
    I think you owe this person an apology, this is completely un-called for.

  • navywings

    @bobell,

    You say potato. So, since neither of us has a law degree, I guess we’ll just agree to disagree as you won’t convince me and I won’t convince you.

    Violence is wrong and I think everyone here agrees with that. What I am against is ascribing a violent characteristic to a group based on a few individuals. It’s not the “GOP,” it’s a few nuts.

    Afterall, if we do that, I can just say liberals are violent nutcases based on Greenpeace, Sierra Club and Malcolm X, all who advocate(d) violence as necessary to bring about change. Should you be lumped into a group based on the characteristics of a few?

    The tone in these threads has been the GOP advocates violence because of a few “words” that have been found in some transcript somewhere. BS. Like I said in other posts, I can find similar words in Democrat leaders’ transcripts (Pelosi comes to mind) but I don’t ascribe violence to the party. That’s just plain stupid.

  • kevin

    I agree — ascribing traits to an entire political party on the basis of individual actions is wrong. Which is why I never did that. And neither did ohiolib in the original post. Go back and read it again.
    .
    We were talking about individual acts, and I was condemning them, while rusty and, to some extent, you seemed to be waving your hands over it like it didn’t matter.
    .
    The government definition of “domestic terrorism” is incredibly clear. I’m going to side with them on this.

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    Good grief. Seriously, navywings? This is the best you can do? Disdainful comments about liberals and “oh yeah, well, Malcolm X was a Democrat!”? And if he was, what the hell does that mean?
    .
    Strom Thurmond was a Republican. Strom Thurmond was also racist. Does that mean that all Republicans were/are racist? But he was a Democrat before 1964, so does that mean Democrats were/are racist, too?
    .
    And you don’t think putting a coffin on someone’s lawn is intended to make the lawn owner scared? Of course, your response to that is, “Hey, the Sierra Club spikes trees!” Stuart Zechman, without a single denigrating word, makes a cogent liberal argument for health care in response to your sneering comment about liberal = wanting something for nothing, and your response is to ignore his post and make your Malcolm X analogy?
    .
    I teach high-school freshmen who can argue better than you.

  • kevin

    Where we disagree is classifying an individual act as a terrorist act.
    .
    So individuals can’t commit terrorism? The underwear bomber, the shoe bomber, any given lone suicide bomber — they’re not terrorists?
    .
    That’s a novel interpretation, and one that goes against decades of American jurisprudence on the subject.

  • stewartiii

    NewsBusters — TIME’s Alex Altman: Republicans ‘Implicitly Validate’ Anger Spurring Violence Against Democrats
    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2010/03/25/times-alex-altman-republicans-implicitly-validate-violence-against-dem

  • navywings

    @Shakespeare,

    You probably didn’t view the previous posts I made on this topic. It’s essentially a followup. Until you’re fully up on the conversation, I’ll refrain from pointing out just how much of an idiot you really are.

    Go to 14.4 if you’d like to catch up

  • navywings

    @kevin

    Yes individual acts can be classified as terrorist acts. I was referring to the individual acts in question after bill passage. If you denigrate every act that has so much as a hint of being targeted at a group of individuals as “terrorist” you water down the meaning of terrorist and weaken what the Patriot Act was intended to do.

    Again, in my opinion, these acts are not “terrorist” acts. We’ll just agree to disagree.

  • abdullah69

    Of course this is not domestic terrorism. Don’t you guys know an “enhanced persuasion technique” when you see one?

  • http://mitchshrader.wordpress.com mitchshrader

    I have some interest in both camps, and it’s ironic and amusing the that I disagree with both…..

    I don’t want, nor will I accede to, a mandate by fiat requireing me to buy health insurance.

    I will support anyone who feels and acts likewise, to include refusing to convict them for tax evasion were I on their jury.

    I’m consciously and deliberately a social liberal, who wishes that progressives using liberal values as political currency would kindly disappear. Any presumption of the right to tax America into social justice runs into the problems associated with large wads of stolen loot.

    The crooks fight over it. The problem isn’t that a Democratic government steals, they all steal. It’s how MUCH they steal and what’s worse, what they waste on the justification of it. Don’t think I’m claiming they’ve a patent on the idea, far from it. They just spread it out wider.. and it takes more. Which is why we’ve the sudden spike in already unsustainable deficit spending.

    The best government we can get is gridlock in congress, and contention and conflict between congress and the executive branch. With enough logjamming, the tiny residue remaining is actually useful.

    When it comes to heallthcare.. I’m about 80% certain this bill won’t stand a constitutional challenge. Let’s see what the supremes have to say about it….

  • dunesguy

    This is a direct result of the GOP/Tea Party rhetoric and no matter how much Boehner tries to distance himself, his party is responsible. Was I imagining things or wasn’t Michelle Bachmann, Virginia Fox , King, and others front and center at the Tea PArty rallies saying how ,”a revolution once in a while is a good thing.” ? Politico released a survey of the Tea Party yesterday showing how 74% identified with the GOP and that 77% of them voted for McCain. No folks, they are today’s GOP. Even GOP congressmen show no respect to the instutuion they are part by their outbursts screaming “YOU LIE” and “BABY KILLER”…and then give a pro forma apology.
    This is no different than after 15 years of Reagan/Gingrich “government is the enemy” talk that some nut blows up the Fed. building in Oklahoma City.
    As someone else asked, “Why does the GOP hate America so much “?

  • kevin

    You think Malcolm X was a Democrat? Seriously?
    .
    Malcolm X was famous for complaining about the Democratic Party, for arguing with blacks that they needed to turn away from the Democrats because, in his view, they were just as bad as the Republicans.
    .

    Question: What is your opinion of the Democratic Party?

    Malcolm X: The Democratic Party is responsible for the racism that exists in this country, along with the Republican Party. The leading racists in this country are Democrats. Goldwater isn’t the leading racist—he’s a racist but not the leading racist. The racists who have influence in Washington, D.C., are Democrats. If you check, whenever any kind of legislation is suggested to mitigate the injustices that Negroes suffer in this country, you will find that the people who line up against it are members of Lyndon B. Johnson’s party. The Dixiecrats are Democrats.

    .
    http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/070.html
    .
    Malcolm X hated the Democrats. He got thrown out of the Nation of Islam for gloating about “the chickens coming home to roost” with JFK’s assassination, and he always claimed LBJ was “in the pocket of the Dixiecrats.”
    .
    Stop listening to Rush Limbaugh.

  • kevin

    Until you’re fully up on the conversation, I’ll refrain from pointing out just how much of an idiot you really are.
    .
    I’m fully up on the conversation, and you are the biggest f*cking idiot I’ve ever seen on the entire internet. Congrats.

  • abdullah69

    The Republican Party are only too aware that the monster they have created is A) out of control, and B) doing far more damage to themselves than to the Democrats.

    But they lack the courage to confront the problem, and instead try to lay it off on the Democrats. What else did you expect them to do?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Both of these are recognized charities and have not been accused of shooting anybody or blowing anything up.
    Outside of Rush Limbaugh, when were they regarded as “terrorists”.
    The Navy did ram one of their ships once when they tried to stop a Naval exercise, but, nobody shot at the Navy.

    How long ago was the tree spiking?

    It may have been after 1980, but, it was not at all recent since I heard about it in high school and I was class of 1989.

  • kevin

    Fine, you can agree to disagree with me. And I’ll keep on agreeing with the law of the land.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Newfreedombra:
    “We shall remember and we shall vote to kick the bums in control of Congress out of office in November my friend.
    .
    Count on it!!” was the 2006 Democratic platform.

    Come up something original.

  • navywings

    @Patrick

    Here’s a short list for you.

    Dec 8, 1982: Norman Mayer, an anti-nuclear weapons activist and eccentric, drove a white van up to the base of the Washington Monument.

    April 26, 1983: A bomb explodes at the National War College at Fort McNair in SW Washington shattering windows and cracking walls in the building and doing $100,000 worth of damage but no injuries. (Resistance Conspiracy)

    Aug. 18, 1983: Bomb goes off at the Washington Navy Yard’s Computer Center doing minor damage and causing no injuries. (Resistance Conspiracy)

    November 7, 1983: 1983 United States Senate bombing. The “Armed Resistance Unit” a cover name for the militant leftist group May 19th Communist Movement, bombs the U.S. Capitol in response to the U.S. invasion of Grenada.

    April 20, 1984: Bomb explodes at the Washington Navy Yard Officers Club. (Resistance Conspiracy)

    September 12, 1994: Frank Eugene Corder flew a single-engine Cessna into the White House lawn. (Independent)

    July 24, 1998: United States Capitol shooting incident (1998). Russell Eugene Weston, Jr., a paranoid schizophrenic with a strong distrust of the Federal Government, opens fire at one of the Capitol Building’s checkpoints and kills two U.S. Capitol Police officers. (Democrat)

    February 7, 2001: Robert Pickett, standing outside the White House perimeter fence, discharged a number of shots from a weapon in the direction of the White House. (Democrat)

    March 4, 2010: 2010 Pentagon shooting, John Patrick Bedell gets into a shootout with Pentagon security police near the entrance of the Pentagon Metro station. (Democrat)

    I left out the “unknown” party affiliations. Let me know if there’s anything else I can do for you.

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    I viewed them, navywings. I missed 14.4, which you posted around 8:30. So no, I’m not an idiot. I’m calling you out on the silly rhetoric.
    .
    Also noticed you didn’t reply to my points. Of course, as I’m a “liberal,” I’m not worth debating, unless you want to belittle me. Nice how that works out for you.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “We did exactly the same with the British Empire so let there be no misunderstanding. You are the world’s dominant super power however are you the best people to have that power?”

    “People are individuals”

    “…are you the best people to have that power?”
    It is that line that this individual put up there which has a tone of British condescension.

    Are we meager Americans worthy of Pax Americana or should it really be back to Pax Britannica.

    I often listen to BBC World News, so, it is not just England, it is the hint of condescension.

    BTW: it is illegal for a Catholic to become PM of England to this day.
    Tony Blair waited until after he was PM to convert so that he could keep his job.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3086753.ece

  • navywings

    @Kevin

    Well I sure wouldn’t consider Malcolm X a conservative. You don’t need to come to the defense of Mr. Shakespeare (as my comment was directed at him if you notice the thread). I’m sure he can hold his own, but thanks for the sentiment.

    @Shakespeare

    I didn’t reply to your points as I’ve discussed those in other threads. You may read my replies there.

  • kevin

    I can just say liberals are violent nutcases based on Greenpeace, Sierra Club and Malcolm X, all who advocate(d) violence as necessary to bring about change.
    .
    Malcolm X was not a liberal. He hated liberals, who he thought just put a kinder face on white supremacy.
    .

    The white liberal differs from the white conservative only in one way: the liberal is more deceitful than the conservative. The liberal is more hypocritical than the conservative.

    .
    http://faithinactiononline.com/2008/06/17/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/
    .
    The Sierra Club and Greenpeace are liberals. But they have never, ever advocated violence. Ever. The fact that you think they did speaks volumes about your incredible ignorance.

  • abdullah69

    Republicans love America. They hate the fact they have to share it with anyone else.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Does that make more sense now, Stuart?

    There was, also, an Englishman on the post about Glenn Beck.

    When he explained health care I asked him to import one hundred and fifty thousand English to explain this to Americans.

    That man was not condescending.

  • kevin

    Well I sure wouldn’t consider Malcolm X a conservative.
    .
    Neither would I. Neither would anyone. So what?

  • navywings

    @kevin

    Law of the land? Just whose land and whose law? Certainly not mine. And you’ll see the law of the land demonstrated in November.

  • abdullah69

    Patrick, I think a Catholic can be a PM. They just can’t be Head of State. Conflict of interest, being “Defender of the Faith” and all that.

    Navywings (may I call you John? You sound like him.) US healthcare ranks 37th in the world in terms of quality. You may want to reconsider the word “outstanding.”

    Also “solvent”. It insults the rest of us when Republicans use such a word.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    BillOReilly.com: “If [Hillary] wins… my guns are loaded”
    http://crooksandliars.com/2007/07/25/bill-oreillycom-threatens-hillary-clintons-life#comment-53608

    “…North Carolina Senator Jesse Helms had told a Raleigh newspaper that the President “better have a bodyguard” if he ever visited his state…”
    (Against President Bill Clinton 1994)

    Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,981957,00.html#ixzz0jF6EACmf

    I bet if I looked long enough, I could find fifty threats against Democrats from leading Republicans.


    It dramatically pre-dates Obama.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    abdullah69,
    Strangely enough, King Henry the Eighth got that title from the Pope.
    It was a few years before England became protestant.

    Under the Roman Catholic Relief Act of 1829, sect. 17, and the Jews’ Relief Act of 1858, sec 4, no Roman Catholic or Jew may advise the sovereign on ecclesiastical matters. Were the prime minister to be a Roman Catholic or a Jew and alternate system of ecclesiastical appointment would have to be devised.

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_you_have_a_Roman_Catholic_Prime_Minister_of_Great_Britain

    This is why Blair had to wait to convert.

  • navywings

    @Kevin

    Sure they never “advocated” it but their members engage in it. If Greenpeace did not use violent tactics in the past, why was it necessary to “renouce” violence? Isn’t that exactly what this entire forum is discussing but in relation to the GOP?

    http://www.avantnews.com/news/682278-greenpeace-renounces-nonviolence

    EarthFirst were the ones responsible fro tree spiking. Liberal group. ELF, ALF as well.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Navy,
    It’s your turn to defend Republican Senator Jessie Helms on his statement .
    “in·cite
       /ɪnˈsaɪt/ Show Spelled[in-sahyt]
    –verb (used with object),-cit·ed, -cit·ing.
    to stir, encourage, or urge on; stimulate or prompt to action: to incite a crowd to riot.”

    If Helms wasn’t a good speaker, that does not mean that he did not try.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Kenya
    Ethnic groups:
    Kikuyu 22%, Luhya 14%, Luo 13%, Kalenjin 12%, Kamba 11%, Kisii 6%, Meru 6%, other African 15%, non-African (Asian, European, and Arab) 1%

    Source: CIA fact book.

    Navy, our president is 0% Arab and 50% Sub-Saharan African (Black or in 1960s terms “Negro”)

  • bobell

    @navywings (14.4) — Who said I don’t have a law degree? As for your admission, no surprise. As Prof. Kingsfield would put it, you don’t think like a lawyuh.
    .
    Allow me to offer you two guidelines to productive posting here: Try to stick to actual, true facts instead of the made-up kind, and try to be logical in your thinking (you do think, right?) It’s clear that several regulars here either can’t or won’t adhere to those two principles. Can you?

  • kevin

    Sweet Jesus, navywings.
    .
    First of all, your reading comprehension problem is causing you problems again. Check the link you provided — it says “Greenpeace renounces nonviolence” — which, if it were true, would mean they were in fact traditionally against violence, as everyone knows, and have now changed their position.
    .
    But more important, the article you found in your frantic Google search is from a fake humor site. The obvious made-up names in it (“Redwing Beetleboi” and “Catalina Butterfly”?) should have been a clue, but if you’d bothered to look at the full site, it would have been obvious even to you.
    .
    The lead article on that site has the dateline “Stratford-Upon-Avon, June 16, 2044″ and is a spoof of Shakespeare as a hack writer.

  • navywings

    @bobell,

    You didn’t need to. That much is evident. Thanks for the guidelines. I could say I am a very logical thinker but the word “logical” is foreign to a liberal (I’m surprised you found it). They rapidly digress to emotions, sarcasm and rhetoric as “data” is also a foreign notion to them. Good luck in your posts as well. You’ll need it.

  • kevin

    Law of the land? Just whose land and whose law? Certainly not mine.
    .
    My bad, I thought you were an American.
    .
    The Patriot Act is an American law, and it contains that legal-binding definition of domestic terrorism that American law enforcement agencies use to prosecute acts of domestic terrorism, as described therein.
    .
    It makes sense that you’re a foreigner. You clearly don’t understand a thing about the American legal system and you don’t have the slightest clue about American history either.
    .
    Again, my apologies for thinking you were an American.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “September 12, 1994: Frank Eugene Corder flew a single-engine Cessna into the White House lawn. ”

    He was a daredevil and being apolitical but very dumb without any plan to harm President Clinton.

    July 24, 1998: United States Capitol shooting incident (1998). Russell Eugene Weston, Jr., a paranoid schizophrenic with a strong distrust of the Federal Government, opens fire at one of the Capitol Building’s checkpoints and kills two U.S. Capitol Police officers. ”

    This man does not compare to a Democratic counterpart to McVeigh since he was just plain insane like the Unibomber and Anthrax guy.

    March 4, 2010: 2010 Pentagon shooting, John Patrick Bedell gets into a shootout with Pentagon security police near the entrance of the Pentagon Metro station. Had no known political affiliations.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100305/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_pentagon_metro_shooting

    So, the last left wing affiliated action was done April 20, 1984.

    I was ten years off, but it was, still, twenty six years ago.

    That is, unless you want to split the paranoids half and half and you get either the Anthrax guy or the Unibomber.

  • navywings

    @kevin

    I already demonstrated your screwed up interpretation of the definition of Domestic Terrorism. I see you resorted to the liberal standby tactic of sarcasm when you can’t hang on merit. That’s okay. I can go slower.

    (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

    I say the acts mentioned either here or in the news do not meet even the first requirement. You say they do. It’s an (here’s a big one for you) interpretive clause. Doesn’t matter in the least what you or I think. It matters to a prosecutor if he can adequately prove intent under the first part.

    AND the acts have to be dangerous to human life. Hmmm. Coffin on a lawn? Not. Threats? Not an act dangerous to human life. The only acts I see as dangerous to human life is the shot into Cantor’s office and that was likely a democrat.

    Nice try though. Thanks for playing! Keep up the hard work!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Navy,
    I’ve got to love your Republicans.
    Check out where that picture of violence came from:
    Republic Steel
    Memorial Day Massacre of May 26,1937
    “Ten demonstrators were killed by police bullets during the “Little Steel Strike” of 1937. When several smaller steelmakers, including Republic Steel, refused to follow the lead of U.S. Steel (Big Steel) by signing a union contract, a strike was called by the Steel Workers Organizing Committee (SWOC) of the Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO). ”

    They couldn’t find any good pictures of Democratic violence, so the blog took a link of police murdering Democratic, Liberal, Steel workers on strike!

    LOL

  • kevin

    For the second time in this one thread, parts i-iii are linked in the statue by “or” which means the incident only has to fit one of the three to be deemed applicable to the legal definition. Part ii is an exact fit.
    .
    Please, keep trying. This is hysterical.
    .
    Tell me again how Malcolm X was a Democrat, or how Greenpeace advocated violence, and all the other laughably stupid things you keep insisting are facts too.
    .
    You get sarcasm from me because that’s all you deserve. You’re a moron.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    apeelsolutions
    If you can take back that very British Imperialist statement of “…are you the best people to have that power?” I would greatly appreciate it.

    You know as well as we all do that England was far, far worse than the United States is now or has been for the past one hundred years.

    The last time were were that brutal was during wars with the Indians.

    We did not, however, starve out a place we had colonial control over the way England had.

    We did not bury black people alive the way that England did when they were at war to keep control of Kenya. (A Kenyan friend of mine had it happen to his Uncle during their war for independence.)

    We, absolutely, should hold ourselves to a higher standard than we have, however, that higher standard is not the English Empire.

    Even Niles Ferguson can tell you that.
    (Yes, I read Empire and, even though it was regarded as a patriotic British view, we simply are not that bad to the rest of the world.)

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Navy,
    You haven’t gotten back to me yet.
    How about anything after 1984 that was not done by a person who was rabidly insane.

    McVeigh was not a paranoid. He was not delusional. He was a terrorist as were Eric Rudolph and A Joseph Stack III the suicide bomber.

    I’ve given you that I was unaware of the Communists of 1983 (Democrats are no closer to Communists than Republicans are to Nazis – they aren’t ours but they are left of the Republicans and, therefore, our half of the spectrum.)

    Republican rhetoric has been inspiring violence.

    Obama has a claming style and most Democrats could talk about a economic revolution with new ideas which should dazzle you, but, in a way so bland that it could knock you unconscious with boredom.

    This is not violence inspiring.

  • navywings

    Okay @Kevin, I see you took the short bus to school. I will help you understand it though, as hard as it may be for you.

    (A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

    (B) appear to be intended—

    (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
    [Okay....in this phrase, a conjunction such as or, you separate the terms into two distinct phrases. Is thus becomes:
    to intimidate a civilian population or coerce a civilian population. Just being intimidation DOES NOT qualify as domestic terror unless it is acted upon a population.]
    (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
    [Same here: to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or to influence the policy of a government by coercion]

    And THEN all you have to do is meet one of the conditions in the sentence. Doesn’t matter which you pick in (i) it has to affect a POPULATION by either coercion or intimidation..

    I hope that helped. Do I need to get you a reference for the rules of constructing logical statements and associate decomposition? Next class tomorrow.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Dec 8, 1982: Norman Mayer, an anti-nuclear weapons activist and eccentric, drove a white van up to the base of the Washington Monument.”
    … and?

    Tomorrow you can give the rest of that twenty eight year old story.

    So far it sounds like a parking violation.

    I’ll be online at 0730 EST time.

  • diecash1

    Unlike those members of Congress who falsely alleged that they had been called “n!!!!r” and “f!!!!t”

    Will you be providing evidence (video or other) to support your conclusion? Allow me to answer that with another choice quote from you:

    Don’t bet on it.

    As usual, you’re all froth and spittle, no substance.

  • johnscorner

    Deeply saddened by what I read, first, in a MoveOn.org letter this afternoon, then, by link, what I saw in this blog post, and, even more, in the mean-spirited posts on both sides in the ongoing comments.

    HOWEVER, I wonder where political discourse has gone IN GENERAL, here in the United States.

    Consider this claim against Carnahan’s statements: http://current.com/1nf0s4c

    Or the widespread reports of Democratic/liberal/Progressive violence surrounding Prop 8 in California. (For example, http://jennifer-roback-morse.blogspot.com/2008/11/radical-homosexuals-plan-day-of.html and http://jennifer-roback-morse.blogspot.com/2008/11/videos-on-prop-8-protests-and-violence.html. –Not to deny violence on the part of Pro-8 people [see http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/violence-streets-prop-8-supporters, for example].)

    I’m “just” dismayed that so many Democrat/liberal/Progressive advocates think political violence is somehow endemic in, and only comes from, “the other side.”

    Clearly, it’s not.

  • johnscorner

    Patrick, please see my post directly below yours (#46).

    Thanks.

    With sadness,

    John

  • mdicicilia

    I have not seen any posts here that denounce the book and the film that advocated the assassination of President Bush. Am I to assume that that kind of speech is alright?

    By the way I believe that the ballot box is the proper place to express ones anger in politics.

  • http://foodprecinct.wordpress.com barher

    Does anyone remember the Republican National Convention? The only chants that stand out for me are: Support your President in a time of war and, Our Country First.

    That WAS the Republican convention, wasn’t it?

  • ockfener

    Note to American politicians, speech writers and activists:

    You are not intelligent enough to use metaphors and connotative language and imagery. Please stop.

    And for those that are throwing this thuggish language out there intentionally, souls are on sale at your nearest corporate megastore for $2.95.

    Come on.

  • http://ngc121629.wordpress.com ngc121629

    RE Republicans principles (or lack thereof ?)
    Here are facts -not opinions
    1.They oppose universal heathcare -will bring socialism and more taxes …..
    2. They supported Bush on Iraq but did not vote for any tax increase to payfo rthe war when they were in power
    3.The TARP bailout was SOCIALISTIC (GOVERMENT -TAXPAYER MONEY-INCREASED LONG TERM DEBT-DEFICITS) a FAILURE OF GOVERMENT REGULATORS AND FREE ENTERPRISE,BUTTHE TEA PARTY CONSERVATIVES WERE SILENT
    My opinion as one who traded in stock option derivatives -
    Defintion :Conservative -one who consistently waives the flag ;is anti- bortion and will not pay taxes for causes he supports or opposes.In otherwords an irrational insecure bunch of SOB”S

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    John,
    The first one is a very disingenuous representation of the matter already from Navywings.
    Like I said, below, it is a picture of liberal Democratic Steel workers in a union strike being murdered by police in 1937.

    I know nothing of the gay protesters in California, but, without sitting through the whole video, it did not appear to show acts of violence against religious people. If you had a shorter clip I would watch it in full.

    I do remember a gay group had disturbed Catholic Masses in New York about twenty years ago. They were complaining that the Catholic Church did not accept homosexuality and ruined everybody’s day. The John Cardinal O’Connor, then the Bishop of New York, pointed out that Catholic hospitals at that time had more AIDS patients than other hospitals, so that gays with AIDS were not being treated unfairly.

    The topic is people who follow mainstream or somewhat more conservative groups like the Tea Party Republican causes making death threats. I did not see any verified reports of death threats by gay activists against conservatives.

    If such a thing did happen, you didn’t make that clear unless it was buried deep in the video.

    I, also, do not associate mainstream Democrats with the gay marriage movement other than some support by Democrats. It is not high on the Democratic agenda and I have never taken a position one way or another about gay marriage myself. (I do not believe that it is a terrible thing that we do not have it, but, if we did and when, one of these days, a woman gets me to say “I do” I can’t see why gay marriage would change any aspect of my being married to a woman.)

    Gay activists can be very melodramatic. Violent Femmes? That was a 1980s/90s band. I never heard of gay violence being an epidemic. (Pretty good band if you ask me).

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Republican rhetoric has been very disturbing.

    When Ronald Reagan bailed out Chrysler, it was “Free Market Capitalism” with a long term low interest loan. When Obama bailed out Chrysler and GM by temporarily holding non-voting stock to sell back ASAP, that is “socialism” or “Communist take over”.

    Even when GWB did the same to the banks, it was, still, Free Market.

    When Obama passes a plan originally from former long time Republican Senator and 1996 Republican Candidate Bob Dole for Health Care Reform, as soon as it is done by a Democrat, it becomes “a big government takeover” being “shoved down our throats”, “Unconstitutional” (unknown how since the federal government already has a Nixon agency called OSHA mandating that workplaces spend money on safety devices of all kinds, that having employers buy insurance is not new territory).
    ….
    When Carter was caught off of his guard by an Oil embargo, it was 100% Carter’s fault according to Republicans. It remained his fault for the first two years of Reagan Administration until we climbed out of a recession. When the Republicans in congress repealed the Glass Steagall Act and our banks began to do some very insane things ruining our economy for years, that was not the Republican’s fault.
    (BTW: I hold Clinton half responsible for that since he signed the Republican proposal for the repeal.)

    When I am online I see Republicans saying talking points as if they were facts such as “Obama wants the terrorists to win”. Get back on your meds! Obama has a different plan to be victorious. Then there are absurd claims that Obama was not born in Hawaii, but abroad; that he is Arabian and/or Muslim (if so, so what – but it is factually incorrect).

    Republicans are asking for their people to turn violent.

    In America, we have a kind of a social contract: If Republicans win, they get to do whatever they want to the government and, when Democrats win, Republicans agree not to destroy our homes with rocket propelled grenades.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    But by condemning violence and blasting Democrats in the same breath, Republican leaders implicitly validate the anger spurring these incidents.
    ~
    It’s not the anger that needs invalidated, Alex, but rather the reactive projection of that anger, by some, in the form of violent protest. Validating a purely legitimate form of democratic dissent, that is anger at perceived unrepresentative governing, is nothing to distance oneself from. These Republican members should not disavow the anger that is present in this country. To do so would be wrong. What they must do, and what some have although not as forcefully as I would have liked to see, is repudiate the violent expression of anger. For you, or anyone else, to ask that they disavow the anger itself is to ask them to disavow their constituents. For them to do that would validate the anger of the populace even more. There is a fine line to be walked here -one that is frequently overstepped- between encouraging civility and quelling dissent. Democrats, of course, would like nothing more than GOP Congressmen to take to the podium in large numbers lambasting the anger in this country as illegitimate. This would validate the health-insurance bill for the Democratic Party. Unfortunately for Democrats, the anger has already been validated, and is wholly legitimate, despite the reprehensibly illegitimate violence and demogoguery by the extreme rightwing.

  • rr17302

    I am a conservative. I don’t hate the country whose Navy I served in for 31 of my 49 years. But I don’t like what it is becoming — a nation divided based on wealth achieved out of proportion to performance or production. Since many on this blog view Republicans/conservatives so negatively, should I also generalize and ask … do Democrats really HATE our military? After all, many in the military are conservative and most USED to equate that with the Republican Party, myself included (this self-characterization of party affiliation it is changing dynamic). However, I no longer feel that the Republican party reflects my values yet do NOT believe the “progressive” wing of the Democratic Party reflects it either. The government of Tip O’Neal and Ronald Reagan worked because folks looked for accomplishments that made the country better, not their personal standing in it. I do not think that attitude is rampant in our current generation of “me” leadership. I was for Obama’s vision of the future but am upset he let it get corrupted into one shaped by Pelosi and Reid. But Boehner and Cantor also do not reflect my conservative views any more than Pelosi or Reid. That is what I am angry about. So when you ponder why “the other side is so screwed up” think about how you help polarize the nation with your own BROAD, ABSOLUTE JUDGMENTS about their mental stability or love of country. Don’t be surprised when your side’s hateful comments get equally vehement responses from your opposites.

  • http://trsolomon.wordpress.com trsolomon

    If a conservative doesn’t like guns, he doesn’t buy one.
    If a liberal doesn’t like guns, he wants all guns outlawed.

    If a conservative is a vegetarian, he doesn’t eat meat.
    If a liberal is a vegetarian, he wants all meat products banned for everyone.

    If a conservative is homosexual, he quietly leads his life.
    If a liberal is homosexual, he demands legislated respect.

    If a conservative is down-and-out, he thinks about how to better his situation.
    A liberal wonders who is going to take care of him.

    If a conservative doesn’t like a talk show host, he switches channels.
    Liberals demand that those they don’t like be shut down.

    If a conservative is a non-believer, he doesn’t go to church.
    A liberal non-believer wants any mention of God and religion silenced.

    If a conservative decides he needs health care, he goes about shopping for it, or may choose a job that provides it.
    A liberal demands that the rest of us pay for his.

    If you are conservative, you see that the above statements are true.
    If a liberal, you are offended and will probably respond by name calling.

  • diecash1

    If an idiot is given internet access, this is the kind of moronic drivel we can expect.

  • http://trsolomon.wordpress.com trsolomon

    Thank you for making my point, you sir are a true liberal.

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  • sasquatch08

    Everything on this topic has gotten way out of hand including this discussion.

    Clearly there is no justification for threatening or trying to kill members of Congress no matter how they vote or what their political affiliation.

    There are nuts on both sides of this issue and in every group you can find there’s at least one loon.

    Violence has been perpetrated in this country by both the far left and the far right. Far rightists shoot abortion doctors or send bombs through the mail (Unibomber), far leftists burn down a ski lodge because it affects moose migration or destroy SUV’s at a car sales lot because they damage the environment. The list on both sides goes on and on and on.

    While the “dead men” statement may have been crass I fail to see how Republicans have fanned these flames any more than the left has fanned the flames of environmentalists who commit acts of violence or intimidation on behalf of the environment or Code Pink suggesting it was time to attack U.S. Marines in the streets (they just got back from a war zone now they have to worry about being attacked while walking to McD’s?).

    Why don’t we all just agree that words are words, violent acts are violent acts and the former doesn’t cause the latter. Or do kids smoke weed because Eminem told them to? That’s a BS cop-out. People do things because they want to and/or are mentally unhinged, not because a politician, musician, political activist or video game told them to.

    Next we’re gonna hear about how you can backmask political speeches and hear a message from the devil.

  • sasquatch08

    “If an idiot is given internet access, this is the kind of moronic drivel we can expect.”

    Sorta puts a crime in that “high speed internet access is a human right” idea doesn’t it?

  • sasquatch08

    *crimp

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    If a liberal doesn’t want his crazy neighbor to shoot him, he seeks a law limiting guns.
    If a conservative finds out his neighbor is for gun control, he shoots his neighbor.
    .

    If a liberal is homosexual, he quietly leads his life.
    If a conservative is homosexual, he opens a ministry to condemn homosexuals such as Ted Haggard.
    .
    If a liberal is down-and-out, he can’t find any way to better his situation he wonders who is going to take care of his children.
    If a conservative is down and out, he becomes a liberal.
    .
    If a conservative doesn’t like a talk show host, he calls FCC and calls it pornographic or obscene.
    Liberals roll our eyes and change stations when we find programs we do not like.
    .
    If a liberal finds a religion, he quietly shares it with his friends and family.
    If a conservative finds a religion, he demands that it get taught in public schools.
    .

    If a liberal can not afford health care, he finds a way to share health care and make it cheaper for everybody.
    If a conservative can not afford health care, he becomes a liberal.
    .
    If you are liberal, you see that the above statements are true.
    .
    If you are conservative you will be offended and will probably respond by starting your own militia.
    .
    Did you ever notice that recessions create liberals by the millions?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    The internet: invented and created in full by the United States Department of Defense.
    .
    One of those crazy lefty big government ideas.

  • navywings

    @patrick

    You’re an idiot for your post and delusional if you actually believe it. As for liberals by the millions during recessions? You are 100% correct. They’re the ones with their hands out.

  • diecash1

    Not so much. This is just the sort of idiocy that comes with the territory, internet access be damned.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Navywings!
    According to your brother conservative, that makes you liberal!
    .
    Only liberals are offended by speech, right?
    .
    Obviously gun control is about stopping people with anger management issues from getting guns.
    .
    The homicide rate in New York City is minuscule for eight million people. Why? New York State, New Jersey and Connecticut have very, very strict gun rules.
    .
    Without a gun, somebody could kill me. But, I am reasonably big, so, unless you are right out of the Army or otherwise really strong, it will take a little while to do so. Before then, you might have time to think that killing people is a very bad idea and walk away when I only have a bloody nose.
    .
    As the recession goes on, watch more and more people vote Democrat.
    .
    History:
    1929 until 1933, Democrats went from being a small side party ever since Lincoln to overwhelming Republicans in every state and the White house.
    .
    1976, after a recession, Carter gets elected.
    .
    1992, after four years of recession, Bill Clinton gets elected.
    .
    2006, after too many downturns and market gone haywire, Democrats take back both houses.
    .
    2008, as economy worsens, Barak Obama becomes president.
    .
    Ted Haggard was a joke.
    .
    When finding no solution and wondering if you can feed your children or ever able to afford to support them is when you become a liberal.

  • sasquatch08

    patricksartor

    Thanks for the history lesson. Pretty sure I knew that long before Al Gore tried to claim he invented it.

    As for your “lefty” statement, I don’t know where that came from nor, due to it’s total lack of relevance to anything here, do I particularly care.

    Do you have to take everything that isn’t 100% in agreement with your views as some sort of attack? Seems pretty common on here that even when I agree with what’s said 99% I get attacked, called a “moron”, “idiot”, “bigot”, “liar”, “homophobe” and “racist”. (Not that you’ve stooped to those levels.)

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    BTW: Creationism is religion, not science. That and the Reagan era concept of prayer in school are examples of forcing religion into public school.
    .
    Keep your religion at home.
    .
    Among many, many others, Catholics – 20% of the US – believe in evolution.
    .
    The 30% of you who do not and want to force children to convert to your religion in public schools by forced prayer are bringing religion on top of everybody else.
    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I didn’t even contradict you.
    I just tacked on something.
    .
    Al Gore said, correctly, that he wrote some of the legislation to turn the internet from Apranet at the Department of Defense into the internet. He then said that, because of the, “I nearly invented the internet”.
    .
    GWBs people jumped on it.
    .
    I blame Gore’s campaign for not shooting back, not GWBs people from being quick.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    What is a homophobe?
    .
    I think that is when you fear that if you die young Elton John will create yet another version of Candle in the Wind about you.
    .
    Damn, do I hate that cheesy song.
    .
    I have been called homophobic and find the term dramatically overused.

  • navywings

    @patrick

    You are SO unequipped to defend gun control. Any serious statistics to include government statistics debunk any credibility of gun control. In short, the seven LEAST violent states are “shall issue” states.

    http://newsbusters.org/node/9140

    As for your citation of NYC, your logic therefore would be that stricter laws equate to lower homicide rates? Please explain DC then

    So are you worried about guns or murder? Care to look at homicide rates for other weapons? They dwarf those of guns. How about accidental falls? Dwarf even violent crime deaths.

    We’ve got laws against possession, distribution, sale and every possible form of narcotics you can think of yet they’re as prevalent as a farmers market. Sorry, laws don’t fix things. You think criminals are following a new law? They don’t even know one has been passed.

    Let’s face it, since the data clearly does not support gun control over legal carry of firearms (if it did, they would have been banned years ago), it’s really about how liberals like you wish to restrict particular rights while enjoying the ones YOU want.

    To be truly independent and objective, you must support even the rights you don’t like. I make not agree with say the right to an abortion, but it is a right and I would defend it til the day I died all while trying to change the law. It’s what I did for 25 years in the Navy. Defended the right of idiots to burn the very symbol of what gave them the right to burn the flag.

    People like you are truly the narrow-minded America, you’re just so narrow-minded that you can’t see it. So essentially, I’m just talking to myself anyway as you either can’t understand data or simply to stubborn to accept a new viewpoint.

    Good luck with your frustration. As for me, I’ll enjoy seeing a new America come November and then we can get on with unscrewing what the current Executive and Legislative branches have done.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Navy,
    New York and DC guns come from legal guns in Virginia.
    .
    So did the guns at the Virginia tech killings.
    .
    Our Republican mayor, a billionaire (if that impresses you – not me so much) has been an advocate for gun control.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=7328395&page=1
    .
    Note that I stated that you would have to go to Vermont, New Hampshire or Maryland to be a gun runner.
    .
    Gun runners come up I-95 from Va, sell the guns in places like Jersey City and a few – a few – end up here illegally.
    .
    In DC, you can walk to go buy a gun over the VA border.
    .
    I didn’t open your link because I have seen reliable sources of information very clearly stating the homicide statistics.
    .
    As for drugs being illegal but available, then it would be logical to say that you must believe crack should be legal. Either that or you are saying that additional preventable gun deaths is fine with you.
    .
    About half a mile from me in my neighborhood people with clean criminal records may get shot gun licenses for hunting, but, since shot guns are almost never used in crimes and hunting grounds are so far away, this has not caused any problem.
    .
    As for fires and accidents, I am very much against fires and accidents. I do not know any Democrat, or, to your credit, Republican who does support accidents. That was a non-point of yours. That is, unless you figure that if, say, 400,000 people die from drugs, 5,000,000 people die from accidents, why not let, say, 100,000 people die from getting murdered with a gun.
    .
    Remember to have a point to every one of these statements.
    .
    You, obviously, haven’t written any college papers in the past twenty years or you would understand that facts you bring up are there to lead towards a conclusion.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Want a link?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state
    .
    That is a statistical source and a reasonably reliable one.
    .
    Please look up all 50 states individually and then tell me one by one what the rate of gun murders are compared to how strict the gun laws are.
    .
    You may not realize that gun control laws do not forbid hunting.
    .
    Also, in addition to law enforcement, particular branches of security and people who own businesses which involve the transportation or carrying large amounts of cash.
    .
    Concealed guns are, very, very limited outside of law enforcement here or in the neighboring states.
    .
    I really do not feel like debating gun control at the moment, but, if you are so much better equipped to study and, therefore, debate, gun control laws, please make use of this information and get back to us tomorrow.

  • navywings

    @patrick,

    well you don’t know me and what I have done or not. Seems to me, I’m the only one posting sources. Oh wait, your sources are the nutcase Bloomberg that all the guns coming into NY come from VA? LOL. That was debunked a long time ago and Bloomberg was kicked back to the sh@thole where he belongs.

    Please. By all means, cite your “reliable” sources lol. Sorry, the small amount of data I posted is prima facie evidence gun control is a fools quest. Do I need to explain prima facie to you as well?

    Thanks for playing. Come back when you can post something “reliable” other than your idiot mayor.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Interesting.
    NYC has the most billionaires per square mile and it is… terrible place?
    .
    The largest law enforcement agency in the United States, the NYPD followed by serial numbers the guns to Virginia. We have 30,000 police officers here. It used to be 40,000, but, without that much crime to chase anymore, they let people retire without replacement. A large share of the people who join the NYPD are former military. It’s too bad that you think so many former military people are too dumb to trace serial numbers. I never said anything like that about our armed forces nor our police.
    .
    Bloomberg is a Republican, not a Democrat.
    .
    I’ll keep in mind how dimwitted Republicans are according to you next time I vote.
    .
    Maybe you are just pulling facts out of your butt and don’t really know anything about: New York, gun control, the law, the constitution or making a clear, well reasoned argument designed to convince either the other person or third party of a point.
    .
    If you moved here and do not have a mental illness nor a criminal record, you can get hunting weapons whenever like.
    .
    Why would you want a gun owner a few bucks short sell his legal gun to somebody who has a criminal record to go rob you?
    .
    That’s what gun control is all about.

  • navywings

    @patrick

    Oh and I did look at your “reliable” source (if you think Wikipedia is a reliable source you really don’t understand a thing). So what year is that source? Is that a month? Days worth of data?

    Anyway, you just don’t even get the issue do you? The issue is being one of protecting oneself from violent crime. NY has one of the HIGHEST rats of violent crime compared to states with liberal carry laws. (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004912.html)

    So, in states that allow carrying of firearms, you have LESS of a chance in being a victim of a violent crime. SCOTUS ruled police are not legally required to come to your aid. So, if that is the case, who is responsible for your safety? You.

    And it comes down to rights (which you haven’t addressed). Sorry, but law abiding citizens aren’t the ones you should be worried about.

    I know you don’t want to debate gun control. That’s fine. Your choice to live as a victim, my choice not to. Again, gun control is a dead issue. It’s not going to happen on any serious level except for bastions of liberal “rights suppression” states like NY.

    Never met a gun control nut who was upset because a law abiding citizen came to their defense armed….lol. Just a bunch of hypocrites.

    Keep trying…

  • navywings

    @patrick,

    Not sure who called Bloomberg a Democrat, but they were right. Ever heard the term RINO? He’s the poster child.

  • sasquatch08

    I never said you contradicted me. If your tacked on statement was meant for comedic effect, I apologize.

    Gore’s statement is still a wild overstatement that shows only that his ego is as large as the Sahara is sandy.

    I also hate that song.

    A homophobe is a person who practices homophobia or is homophobic. If the word is dramatically overused (which I agree it is) then please tell your fellow posters to stop saying that I fall into that category, as well as “racist” and “bigot” which are completely overused on this blog, in many cases to say basically “I don’t understand all the big words you used so you must be a racist bigot!” Thought not in such plain terms.

    The next time I’m told I “hate n****rs” I’m going to scream because I have never used that word in my life. If they want to talk about “incendiary rhetoric” that’s fine, but they need to stop talking the same sorta crap. If there’s one thing I am sick of it’s the “do as I say not as I do” mentality that pervades both the right the left and religion.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Navy,
    Check your own link again.
    New York State has low violent crime rates.
    It is not the lowest, but significantly lower than New Mexico and Nevada (it’s too alphabetical neighbors).
    .
    I had a coffee too late in the evening today and woke up with insomnia.
    .
    You seem to be overly concerned about his and have not read your own link.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I have weight with other people here?
    Okay, sasquach, I’ll try:
    .
    Hey everybody: As far as I know sasquach does not fear gay people, hate minorities or eat live newborn babies. If you said he does, he doesn’t like it.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

    So, while you are a part of the State National Guard the federal government may not close down your militia or state national guard.

    Even in Manhattan there is a national guard center to be a part of the militia.

    This does not say that individuals have the right to own guns.

    Republicans say again and again that they want to read the constitution word for work.

    Okay, the right of the state to have an armed militia shall be protected.

    So, that has nothing to do with you walking around with a gun when we are in the middle of a low crime city.

  • sasquatch08

    patricksartor-

    Clearly that statement was a joke but thanks for trying. Sorry to tell you the truth: it won’t work, they’re just as crazy as ever.

  • teacherstuff

    Where was the disdain for these comments when they were railing against Bush? Bush had to take these vile comments over and over. And he always turned the other cheek. Funny how when the tables are turned, they cry boo hoo, those mean people *sob*! The dems advocated hate speech against Bush and Cheney and never said anything. Pelosi herself went overboard. I’m glad they are getting a taste of their own medicine.
    Elect-SarahPalin.com Let’s get the country back where it should be. obama has split the country in two. Shame on him and shame on the dems.

  • oldfoxbob

    This is about as clear and easy to understand as it can be – read it!!

    The article below is completely neutral, …not anti republican or democrat.

    545 vs. 300,000,000

    Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems
    and then campaign against them..

    Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits,
    WHY do we have deficits?

    Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes,
    WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

    You and I don’t propose a federal budget.
    The president does.

    You and I don’t have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations.
    The House of Representatives does.

    You and I don’t write the tax code,
    Congress does.

    You and I don’t set fiscal policy,
    Congress does.

    You and I don’t control monetary policy,
    the Federal Reserve Bank does.

    One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president, and nine Supreme Court justices
    equates to 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally,
    and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

    I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problemwas created by the Congress.
    In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered,
    but private, central bank.

    I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority.
    They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing.
    I don’t care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash.
    The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises,
    it is the legislator’s responsibility to determine how he votes.

    Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault.
    They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.

    What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall.
    No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker,
    who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits…..
    The president can only propose a budget.
    He cannot force the Congress to accept it.

    The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land,
    gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating
    and approving appropriations and taxes.

    The Speaker is the leader of the majority party.
    He/she and fellow House members, not the president, can approve any budget they want.
    If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.

    It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million can not replace 545 people
    who stand convicted — by present facts — of incompetence and irresponsibility.
    I can’t think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people.
    When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government,
    then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

    If the tax code is unfair,
    it’s because they want it unfair.

    If the budget is in the red,
    it’s because they want it in the red ..

    If the Army & Marines are in IRAQ,
    it’s because they want them in IRAQ

    If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people,
    it’s because they want it that way.

    There are no insoluble government problems.

    Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats,
    whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish;
    to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject;
    to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power.

    Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces
    like “the economy,” “inflation,” or “politics” that prevent them from doing
    what they take an oath to do.

    Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.

    They, and they alone, have the power..

    They, and they alone, should be held accountable
    by the people who are their bosses.

    Provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees…

    We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!

  • diecash1

    Shouldn’t you be busy drinking the kool-aid at the Jonestown rally in Nevada about now? Remember, don’t sip, just chug it.

  • mbachm

    If we could tally up the death threats received by President Obama and democratic lawmakers who support his policies, and then compare this to a similar tally for President Bush and his supporters when the Republicans were in power, I’m pretty sure we’d find the numbers to be approximately close. Anyone scanning both rightwing and leftwing blogs over the past few years knows that political hatreds have for some time been boiling at both ends of the political spectrum. Unfortunately, most of us tend to be more tolerant of this sort of behavior when it’s directed at people we don’t like than when it’s directed at people we do like. We need to discourage it all around and stay focused on rational problem-solving.

  • vintel7

    How much more republican can Time possibly be? There was in fact, no response from the GOP over the violence that THEY incited. I poured over the media all week looking for a GOP denunciation and did not find one. The republicans created this by inciting their sheep followers to violence by pushing their victimization and fear buttons with lies. Lies such as “the government is trying to take over the health system” “there will be death panels”, the government and the President are socialists…etc. So naturally the republican sheep reacted with their fight or flight response. (ie…fight, violence). This is the obvious root cause of this problem. The doubt, bigotry, ignorance, lies, and hatred spread by the republicans. They will be badly dismayed when they experience the fruit of their actions and words since in this Universe, what you give out comes back to you 3 fold.

  • link999

    Why do democrats hate America?

  • oldfoxbob

    Where do you come up with democrats hating america?

  • luvwknd

    I am so sick of the Repuklican and Dumbocrats bickering like first grade school kids that I have changed to Independent on my voter registration. These two parties don’t know how to be mature and compromise to settle differences of opinion, they don’t know how to handle themselves in a professional matter and they embarrass me as an American to be affiliated with either one of their parties! More Americans should boycott these two parties and “We the People” need to place a person in the White House that is not a member of one of these parties because these two parties have certainly shown they are not qualified to run this great country! I am truly ashamed to be an American!

  • booner1981

    There is a reason that all the left wing media stations are so low in the ratings, it’s because no one believes the crap coming out of there mouths.

  • vintel7

    All the anti-government posts here make me laugh and obviously are coming from “tea party” members…who 99% of America is sick of by now. Do the rest of us a favor….when you violent and mindless Tea Party idiots say “we the people” as your slogan….Speak for yourself. Rather, you should be saying “we the tea baggers.”

  • lbokman

    I am an Independent and there is no difference between left wingers and right wingers who shout down others and won’t give them a chance to speak. Both are two sides of the same coin with metal forged in the fires of intolerance and arrogance. They betray (meaning in the strongest sense of the word) the basic principles of our constitution.

    Thomas Jefferson said, “That differences of opinion should arise among men on politics, on religion and on every other topic of human inquiry, and that these should be freely expressed in a country where all our faculties are free, is to be expected. But these valuable privileges are much perverted when permitted to disturb the harmony of social intercourse, and to lessen the tolerance of opinion.”

    –Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Citizens of Washington, 1809. ME 16:348

    From the right or the left or any where in between, the people who do these violent acts are simply traitors and those who support them or sympathize with them are, using Jefferson’s phrase, “perverts”.

  • booner1981

    Right on, Brother!! I couldn’t have said it better!

  • channelingtwain

    The GOP cannot distance itself from the violence. And I doubt it really wants to.

    During the Bush years, Democrats that were deprived of even hearing rooms were laughed at and called whiners. ( The Russ Feingold hearings took palace in the basement until the Republican leaders came down and took the microphones.. look it up)

    These people are hypocrites.

    They claim this movement is a protest of government spending, interference with personal lives etc.

    Why weren’t they daily in the streets screaming when Bush loaded billions in cash on pallets and lost it in the deserts of Iraq?

    It’s established that the justification for the war was false, and trillions of dollars that were never included in the budget have been wasted, not to mention the lives that have been lost.

    Have any of these people ever read Bin Laden’s manifesto? Bush gave him every single thing he wanted;
    US out of Saudi Arabia: check; Mid east training battle ground : check; US economy in the dumps: check; enhanced jihadi recruitment: check; transformation of Iraq from a secular state to a religious quagmire: check etc. etc.

    Ands name something that more intrusive to personal freedoms than the government outlawing abortion? Oh, that’s different, huh? Really.
    Hypocrites, see?.

    This supposed tea party movement will be the first “revolution” to protect corporations.
    But conservatives need authority figures to tell them what to do, so that actually makes some sense. All the sam hyperbole came out when Medicare was originally passed, same for social security etc etc. If they want to be consistent, then every last one of them best stop taking those benefits.

    No one comments about why the cost of medical care is so high: exactly why is it that an aspirin administered in the hospital costs $37? ( I am looking at my mother’s bill right now)

    Why is it that insured people (those that bought into the system) still are denied care? When the Bankruptcy bill was debated it was revealed that a very high percentage of personal bankruptcies was due to insured people’s medical care debts.

    If you buy insurance, you ought never to have to owe for medical care. But what is sold isn’t really insurance because the companies can cherry pick what they’ll cover even after the contract is signed. And you get the opportunity to fight about it when you are least able: when you are sick, and under the financial stress of paying the exorbitantly high bills ( the $37 dollar aspirin, remember?) Not a level playing field.

    AnNd don’t say it’s because of the high rate of malpractice suits and awards. There’s firm data that shows that states with liability capes have the same medical costs.

    Why is it that a condition you developed when you were covered ( i.e. a risk that you insured against) suddenly becomes uninsurable? Wasn’t that the deal when you bought a policy to “insure” against developing that very risk? You pay them, they gamble you won’t develop it, and if you do they pay. That’s supposedly the deal.

    With a large enough pool the ones that don’t develop the condition pay for the rest. (hmm isn’t that a bit like socialism?

    I guess if an insurer is in the mix and can skim billions of profit off the top then that’s just fine.)

    The whole pre existing condition issue is another word for fraud: If you were insured when you developed the condition then the terms of the deal is that the company has to pay for the treatment. But no, they jack up your rates and then exclude the condition.

    Imagine playing poker and letting the house remove cards from the deck as you won hands. That’s the same arrangement these carriers have gotten this country to accept.

    We outlawed the mafia, we should do the same with health . They are like thugs that block the doors of the hospital demanding a huge cut before you can deal directly with your Dr. Except if you pay the mafia for protection, you might actually have a chance of getting it; not so with insurance carriers.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Seeking to end an unnecessary war as quickly as possible, bring health care at the lowest imaginable cost to the those who can not afford it is what you call “hate”.
    .
    Selling out America to the highest bidder for military contracts in endless war and letting the uninsured die to gain big, fat, campaign checks from health care insurers means you hate America.
    .
    Why do Republicans hate America so much when Democrats love America so much?

  • cisright54

    When this latest distraction, a leftist media created tempest “caused (SIC!) by the TEA Party”) is long since forgotten, and it rightly will be, because precious little videotape evidence (curiously?) either doesn’t exist in the most public of places, very few people (if any) have been arrested in what should be easily solved because of the stupidity and bone-headed aspect of the “crimes”. Unless of course there were at least a fair number of these alleged “crimes” phonied up to one degree or another and fed to friendly media outlets to swallow hook line and sinker, and then regurgitated back out to their friendly audiences w/ no facts or evidence to back up the “fact” that any such *real* “crimes” ever took place. Just seems all too planned and slickly orchestrated to me to be really nearly as big a deal as it is being made out to be by an overwhelmingly left-leaning media. When Bush was being called a Nazi and made out to be the stupidest president in history, where were the Dem’s and “the media’s” calls of condemnation and a return to “civility”. Rioting students on college campuses and anarchists destroying cities during WTO rallies, where was the “OUTRAGE!!!”? No, they were, again, “just impassioned and expressing themselves”. The latest idiot actor rantings wishing rectal cancer and “screaming deaths” upon those who disagree w/ him, again, no media or political outrage re: that behavior. Nope, not a peep. He was “impassioned” and “just expressing himself”, not trying to fan any flames of hatred by any of *his* on the edge of sanity “fans” who share his idiotic world views. Of course not (sic!). Politicians who labeled returning military vets as potential right wing extremists weren’t condemned bi-partisanly, or by a large majority of the “news” media, the same media who still to this day refuse to label Muslim extremists in this country as terrorists, even those who have already murdered and massacred innocent Americans here in the United States. Any of you out there who are still absolutely refusing to see a pattern here? I’d really like the majority of the “news media” in this country to revisit this event 6 months from now just to prove the point that this story was much, MUCH more about “political theater” than about any actual, PROVABLE crimes that were ever actually committed. But of course, we will NEVER see that. Ever. Meanwhile, to all of the blubbering and whining idiot “actors” who are taking part in this disgraceful smear tactic, just change your Depends, grow a pair, and remember that you were elected to do the will of the people you represent, not that of your political thug bosses.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    If your wife is pulling out of a parking space and scratches the parked car next to hers, what do you do?
    .
    If you admit that she made a minor error and exchange paperwork, does that mean you do not love your wife?
    .
    If our appointed president W invades the wrong country with no weapons of mass destruction and a huge amount of evidence in the media in advance that there was no reason to invade other than W’s using the our troops for a personal vendetta, admit that the invasion was a mistake, clean up the mess as quickly as possible and go that does not mean that we do not love America. It means that we do love America and want to be on the side of good, not bad.
    .
    If your wife pulls out of a parking space and scratches the car next to her, running around shouting that it was the parked car’s fault when the driver and their family was inside the store shopping convinces the world not that you are completely insane. It does not show that you love your wife more than the first man.
    .
    When conservatives say to our media that our country was right even without any known reason to invade Iraq, it tells the world Americans are insane.
    .
    I love America and do not want everybody to believe we are insane.
    .
    If your wife doesn’t fill out the forms to get health insurance for your children, do you take the forms and fill them out for yourself or do you tell your children that they do not deserve to go to the doctor?
    .
    If you say, “It’s too bad she didn’t fill out these forms, I’ll do it myself.” that does not mean you do not love your wife.
    .
    If you deny your children health insurance, that does
    not mean you love your wife. It means you are an abusive father who does not love his children.
    .
    If you oppose the least expensive national health care system year after year of debate has found, it means that you love the Republican party and do not love the American people.
    .
    Republicans do not love the American people. They love the Republican party so much that they would kill hundreds of thousands of people abroad, tens of thousands of our soldiers and deny tens of millions of Americans health care to show how much they love the Republican party and how much they hate America.
    .
    Why do Republican hate America?
    .
    Link999, why do you hate America so much?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Violence rather than debate is the most UnAmerican thing one can possibly do. Agreed.
    .
    Anybody who has seen much of the swamp knows that I do debate very, very often.
    .
    Why?
    This is how we find out the best path in a Democracy.
    .
    Personal put downs are counterproductive, but, relatively harmless.
    .
    Threats against elected leaders is, very literally, how the Nazis defeated the democratically elected Wiemar Republic to being the Nazi regime.
    .
    Read a history book and you will find out that Germany had had health care for fifty one years before Hitler and that Hitler wanted to cut costs by murdering people.
    .
    It is not one bill or another which threatens democracy. It is threats of violence which do.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    1) WTO protesters do end up in jail if they act violently.
    .
    2) Muslims, no matter how clearly they express that they mean their greeting “Salam” (meaning Peace be with you) as their goal are demonized by the media.The huge majority of Muslims worldwide think of the fundamentalists the same way we think of the people of Jonestown, the 1993 Wako siege (where the child molestation and the purchasing of hand grenades was the reason for the botched raid) and Timothy McVeigh not being American Christians, but just a group of nuts borrowing the name of Christianity, they believe that the terrorists are nuts borrowing the name of Islam.
    .
    3) When we said that Iraq was a mistake, anti-war groups were under police investigation despite 0 incidents of violence.
    .
    4) When we disagreed with Iraq, we were being told that we “loved terrorists” rather than the truth that we wanted our troops fighting terrorists in Afghanistan rather than doing a Bush mafia-style hit on Saddam Hussein.
    .
    5) Even though it is extremely unlikely, we are providing terror suspects legal defense the same way that we provided Nazis with legal defense. When, with legal defense, the Nazis prosecuted and hanged, the German people observed and learned from the trails that the dictator’s regime had been guilty. When the 9/11 suspects are convicted, Muslims here and abroad will acknowledge from a vigorous defense that the suspects are guilty.
    .
    You are somebody who, clearly, has not seen an unbiased view of these issues in your life or have blinders on the same way the Nazis did before Nuremberg.
    .
    You have no idea what is really going on. You have been very badly manipulated.
    .
    Democrats have gotten employers to give their them and their children health care. They will remember in November.
    .
    You will feel the same way the die hard Nazis did after Nuremberg (just a little less so).

  • link999

    Why do democrats hate Abraham Lincoln?

  • cisright54

    Nice try. Typical and amateurish, but a nice try nonetheless. Now try answering the question central to my post, instead of name calling and using the tactic of those who disagree w/ you have no right to their disagreement, period and end of story. No investigation of any of these cases has resulted in ANY arrests, and no “persons of interest” or “suspects”. And yet a vastly left-leaning media takes the “story”, as yet completely devoid of any investigatory leads whatsoever, and continues w/ what up to now, points to being more a well-orchestrated smear attack on political adversaries w/ trumped up charges of more petty vandalism than anything earth-shatteringly counter to the foundational tenets of the country. This at least so far is all about shutting down anyone’s right to disagree, and not finding the perpetrators of, as of yet, so-called “crimes”. Typical tactic of the progressives. Unless you’re going to thoughtfully and intelligently debate, please don’t take another whack at it using the typical and hackneyed tactics you’ve used so far of name-calling and comparing people to NAZI’S!!!!!(oooooooo, SO SCARY!!! lol!). Where’s the even-handed media coverage of the criminals who committed the ACTUAL CRIMES, whether it’s rioters in the streets, vandalizing anarchists, idiotic actors, or Muslim extremists who have already either murdered, massacred, or attempted such crimes, rather than INCREDIBLY OVER-HYPING a story of (at least so far) NOTHING BUT THE EXTREME EXAMPLE OF POLITICAL THEATER THROUGH SMEAR TACTICS?

  • link999

    I don’t know how parked cars are associated with health care. But I ‘m not married and have no kids so your argument for me to have something that i do not need to have is nonsense.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    LOL!
    .
    Lincoln passed “big government” changes like the first income tax, supported minorities in a way far, far more extreme for a situation far, far more extreme than we have faced since then with ambiguous arguments for helping the Northern whites who elected him and had ideas which were considered radical.
    .
    Clearly the civil rights movement, then done by Democrats, one hundred years later were a continuation of his beliefs.
    .
    Interestingly enough, the favorite person for Republicans to quote is Thomas Jefferson of the then named “Democratic-Republicans” later to change our name to the Democrats.
    .
    Why don’t Democrats consider our own Thomas Jefferson a god?
    Because he was bright but impractical as well as a slave owner who sold his own children into slavery.
    .
    We love Lincoln and like – but do not worship – our own Thomas Jefferson.
    .
    With Woodrow Wilson and, later, FDR, the Democrats took over the Republican traditions and the Republicans became who the Democrats were during the Civil War.
    .
    Had we been born one hundred and fifty years earlier, almost all Democrats would have been Republicans and almost all Republicans would have been Democrats. The parties switched places.

  • link999

    Oh, I never said I hated America.

  • link999

    For someone who says they don’t hate America sure knows how to post alot of hate filled and untruthful arguments that have nothing to do with my original questions.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Look, law enforcement even in New York City is a majority Republican, but, as honorable public servants follow the law.
    .
    Please present something that the arrests of violent conservatives is trumped up and that videos and news footage of WTO protesters getting arrested by police when being violent is staged on some kind of a Hollywood set and we can be on the same level.
    .
    Consistently our law enforcement has been even handed in protecting people from violence from either side with very little attempts from anybody on the left since 1984 when the American Communist Party – not a close friend of the Democrats more than Nazis are friends of Republicans (we never liked Communists and started both the Korean War and the Vietnam War – unfortunately a defeat – against Communists).
    .
    I, like everybody here, have no interest in knowing your real name or anything about you. Neither I nor anybody here wants to hurt you for your ideas.
    .
    I do find you somewhat annoying, but, that’s life in the big city.
    .
    Please be specific in explaining when and where the government has shut down Republican free speech.
    .
    I know that Howard Stern (who switches sides politically often and not my favorite) claimed that the FCC went after his show more and more once he started talking about the Iraq War and threatened to fine radio stations for playing reruns of his old material which was not considered obscene during previous administrations. Since Stern is nothing like NPR or other tame commentators, his claim is weak, but, I do not know of any claims against the Obama or Clinton Administrations. I have not even heard weak claims against either administration.
    .
    I do know that when Ann Coulter said that the widdows of 9/11 were happy that their husbands were dead people offended protested Fox, but made no effort to close Fox News with the Federal government.
    .
    I was not a protester against Coulter. I am not at all Muslim. I am not at all anti-American in any way. I, therefore, stand on the outside and watch as you make false claims you refuse to back up.

    .
    BTW: Do you know how many times I have seen conservatives call Obama (a man half black and, therefore, not acceptable to any concepts of “racial purity” preached by the Nazis) call him a Nazi?
    .
    I said that Muslims will be disgusted by the terrorists after the trail.
    .
    I also said that you have been watching nothing but propaganda.
    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Hate filled?
    .
    I said that conservatives have been absurdly distorting things.
    .
    I have said that our government has made mistakes with terrible consequences and, as an American, I wish to tell the world that we do not hate Muslims, Arabs or others and, therefore, do not support an unnecessary war in Iraq.
    .
    I am saying that we are a country which does not want to harm others but to help others and this is something we should be proud of.
    .
    Knowing that they would not be tortured or killed, during World War II Germans surrendered to us in droves when outnumbered.
    .
    Fearing that they will be tortured, Iraqis kill our soldiers as quickly as possible.
    .
    I do not believing wishing that our soldiers were only in harms way for a war we didn’t need means I am being hateful.
    .
    Bush wanted to sacrifice Americans and our well earned reputation to put out a contract on Saddam Husein.
    .
    That is against our traditions. We do not go to war over personal vendettas of the president.
    .
    I oppose going against our proud tradition and that is… hateful?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    If you love Americans, then why not support the most affordable means to get employers to provide them with health care and fulfill what the Declaration of Independence calls an inalienable right: Life, liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
    .
    There is a much stronger argument for people who support corporations not wanting health care reform because it would limit corporate profits and an average CEO income of the top ten insurers of sixty one million dollars a year than to say that anybody on the progressive (not Communist, who hate us both equally) hates the American working poor.
    .
    Opposing health care reform is, in reality, opposing the best agreed upon means to take care of our own people who work hard and get ill.
    .
    I am not married yet, either.
    .
    People walk to the store in NYC since it is so close, but, when I marry, if my wife makes a dumb mistake, I will not blame everybody else. I will as politely as possible tell her that she made a mistake. That would be love. Pretending that the one you love makes no mistakes ever under any circumstances isn’t love. It is being delusional.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Your original “question” was baiting or, as we say online, “trolling”.
    A classic response would be “FU”.
    .
    I am far more respectful of you and discourse, a tradition of democracy the world over, to answer that way.
    .
    Progressives are very proud that we went from a nation which enslaved people, denied voting rights to Catholics, Jews and women to become an imperfect but far, far greater nation than we could have ever imagined.
    .
    Progress IS the American tradition and progressives are the ones who act out of that love for the American tradition.
    .
    You pose questions baiting for an insult which I did not give you.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Untruthful”?
    .
    If you really, really want to, since I was in the Boston area at the time, you can look up in the Boston Globe how many articles there were in early 2003 explaining in detail why there were no weapons of mass destruction left after the first Gulf War in 1991.
    .
    A sick joke I read (possibly somewhere else, but I believe there) was, since we gave some nasty weapons to Hussein in the 1980s (which, actually been accounted for by the UN) “sure he has weapons of mass destruction. We have the receipts for it right here.”
    .
    After we stopped paying for them and the Massachusetts made scud missiles fired at our soldiers in 1991, Husein was too weak to buy weapons of mass destruction and was smart enough to know that doing so would be signing his own death warrant.
    .
    Staying alive, until we invaded his country without cause was something Hussein was a master of. So, he knew not to try.

  • link999

    Those ideas and way of thinking by those who live in those areas about people they don’t know are the results of negative propaganda of said governments not reputation. Many of these people are pro America knowing what we stand for. Is war bad? Yes. How about doing nothing for a country of people who need help. You said our soldiers shouldn’t be in harms way. Well thats what they’re trained to do. Iraq wasn’t a vendetta. It was to liberate a country and it’s people from a criminal who took over the country illegally and killed millions of its people under false rule. To deny this would be the same as not helping Haiti after the Earthquake, but also denying that an earthquake took place.

  • link999

    I wasn’t baiting anyone. And if I want to say fuck you I would say it not hide behind a bunch of crazy stories and arguments about nothing. The reason of the WMD’s was only one part of the reason of the invasion. Did we provide them to Hussein? Yes, but we did that so he could fight Iran. Did that make it right? The Russians was giving Iran backing in that war. Did that make them right? I don’t really know. Is progress good? Yes, is progressivism good. No,the two are not the same so don’t tell me tey are.

  • elvenkingx1

    No evidence of objectivity here at Time.com. The author of the piece shows himself to be another Left-wing hack who only puts out one-sided opinion pieces. Might as well be writing for The Nation or Mother Jones. A better writer would do a little history that is easily available for a more even-handed and fair story. But that would take a few minutes of work. My bad.

    And why are Democrats so hypocritical? During the Bush administration there were articles and books attacking and spreading hate on his administration daily. There was a book seeking to charge him with murder and a movie advocating his assassination. Where were the denouncements by Democrats?

    Even a number of far-left congressmen and senators got into the act. Where was Pelosi’s condemnation of violence back then? What about Obama-backing SEIU members attacking an African American who didn’t agree with him? What about the harassment and hate against conservatives, especially during election campaigns? What a bunch of phony lying punks. While Democrats are whining and taking away more of our money and freedom, Republicans are getting shot at, and left-wing extremists look up to Joseph Goebbels into publishing biased stories and lies. Good job Time.com.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    The CIA put Hussein into power.
    .
    Since the Kurds were between Iran and Iraq and were ready to rebel, US tax dollar money paid for the poison gas Hussein used.
    .
    Since then, he has not had any weapons of mass destruction.
    .
    We put our soldiers in harms was only for just causes.
    .
    In 1994 we neglected Rwanda 500,000 murdered in ethnic cleansing in one hundred days.
    .
    In 2003 the Darfur region of Sedan was facing the same kind of massacre.
    .
    Husein’s numbers were a fraction of that.
    .
    It would have been like ignoring Hitler to go after English Human rights abuses in India during World War II.
    .
    Either we should have picked fifteen or twenty countries to go to war with, or selected those with the worst human rights abuses with the most people slaughtered. If we had done the later, Sudan would have been #1 on our list and Iraq would have been too low to get involved in.
    .
    Two years before killing the Kurds with US financed poison gas, Saddam Hussein got the key to the city of Detroit, Michigan in 1986.
    .
    It was a hit that, if he were real, would have made Tony Soprano blush.
    .
    Sure, Hussein was a violent dictator. However, he was our puppet and did most of his violence with our nod until Saudi Arabia made deal with us to push him out of Kuwait after we gave him the green light to go in. Saudi Arabia offered and gave the US cheaper oil than before in exchange for Gulf War One. The funny part was that the cheaper oil did not push up the US economy until the last quarter of 1992 so that all of the benefits landed on Clinton’s lap after Bush Sr was out of office.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    If you believe all of the media always lies the way that Nazis and Communists did when following their, far, far worse leaders, then I can not give you any facts that you will believe.
    .
    You will still wave the flag and be sure that somebody wants to burn you and your flag when we just want a good foreign policy which does not inspire more suicide bombers and have health care for ourselves and our children.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    During Hussein’s pre-embargo Iraq, if you never talked politics you had a tolerable income and did not go to jail or get tortured.
    .
    From 2003 through until very lately, if you are Shiite, a Sunni might kill you. If you are Sunni, a Shiite might kill you. If you are a Kurd, they both might kill you.
    .
    The economy and infrastructure is destroyed.
    .
    It will be another few years before people had things only as bad as they did in 1991. It will be years and years after that before their lives would improve.
    .
    Hussein was not a young man.
    .
    If we waited, he would have died.
    .
    Then we could have helped out with Democracy without a war.
    .
    BTW: The Pope was against our invasion of Iraq and, before that, the sanctions even though less than 10% of Iraq is Catholic.
    .
    You have better news sources than the pope?

  • link999

    Again You post a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with my original Question. And then continue to equate events and actions of others to try to win Your argument.

  • cisright54

    2nd attempt at *trying* to get you to stay on topic (which you seem absolutely hell-bent on NOT doing) long enough to counter my central question. Why, unless the majority of the “news” media outlets in this country have an extreme amount of left-wing/”progressive” bias, has not the focus of the “news” stories from these outlets been on covering the actual investigation of the “crimes”, instead of the non-stop knee jerk auto-condemnation of entire political groups who, as of yet have NOT been proven as having a link to ANY of this? Non-stop knee-jerk smears masquerading as “reporting”. Done to do nothing more than to intimidate and discredit political enemies. And *this*? is what passes for “journalism” in this country any more? Thank god there are many that have not given up the fight for this country. Those who are determined to use TRUTH as their HAMMER, and NONVIOLENCE as their ANVIL to fight the smear tactics of condemning entire groups for the actions of a few nut cases, WHO HAVE NOT EVEN BEEN ARRESTED YET, MUCH LESS TIED TO ANY SPECIFIC POLITICAL GROUP. I do not know how much more clear I can make this, particularly to those who are wedded in chains to their totalitarian ideology. Ignore all others, cast them as stupid, shut down even the chance to debate w/ opposing views, that is their view. It just doesn’t happen to be that of the majority of the country. That didn’t stop the thieves and thugs this time, but it also certainly did not and will not shut down opposing views. Even with most of the “news” media in the pockets of the politicians of the majority party. Maybe that’s what it will take, the biggest cable news network in America has already been threatened by the White House, maybe it will take a Chavez-style “arrest” of the last media outlet leader who is not openly waving the pom-poms of Obama cheerleading, to wake people up. It would be interesting how all of the “media” who are intent on smearing entire political groups based on no evidence linking them to any “crimes” being committed, would react to that.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I answered your question many times over: both of them.
    .
    1) “why do Democrats hate America”. We don’t progress is the American tradition and we very much love progress and love America.
    .
    2) We love Abraham Lincoln. We do not hate him. With income tax, government intervention into claims of “ownership” and, therefore, to do whatever you want to what you “own” (in that case a person) having the government require that people do things when needed (in his case a draft) and, a century later the civil rights movement shows Democrats have taken the path of Lincoln while Republicans have taken the path of a radical version of Thomas Jefferson, a Democrat.
    .
    Any more questions or are you just trying to see how long before I say “FU” to say that Democrats are the angry ones?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Obama has made appearances on Fox.
    .
    He has never tried nor could he expect to succeed had he the wish to, to take the license from Fox “News”.
    .
    He hopes that his own words on Fox may bring to light that Fox is not presenting the truth by saying the truth himself.
    .
    If that doesn’t work, his next course of action is to not appear on Fox and ignore them.
    .
    Crimes have been committed by people enraged about the successful passing of health care reform.
    .
    Detective Clueless, pleas tell me where one looks next if the death threats are saying that they are angry about health care reform being passed?
    .
    So, we can rule out all people who do support health care reform. It anything at all they will be sending chocolates, flowers and $50 campaign donations (the $50,0000 donations come from Republicans, the $50 ones are big ones from working people who have earn a living).
    .
    So, it is about health care reform. It is not from the people who support it.
    .
    Hmmm?
    .
    Where to begin?
    .
    Call me crazy but if there is a threat against somebody’s life by somebody saying that they are angry about health care passing, I would look to the ones who… hmmm. oppose… yes, oppose!.. health care reform.
    .
    Who are they?
    CEOs for health insurers and the Tea Party movement.
    .
    I think if you make sixty million dollars a year you really don’t want to tarnish your reputation and hopes for ten to fifty five million a year next year by threatening the life of a congressman.
    .
    Is this logic beyond your capacity?

  • link999

    No you did not answered my question. Again You try to confuse me and the others that are reading this about progress and progressivism. And the government interventions, the federal income tax system, and most other programs that were set up by democrats in this country. Most of the large cities in which the democrats have be in charge of over the last fifty plus years are failing. California, New York and many other states that the democrats have been in charge are also failing. So your gonna tell me that I’m to accept any plan by democrats that I’m to have to purchase something by law that I do not need. As for the democrats taking the path of Abraham Lincoln is concern it’s more like hijacked it. The Kenndys and by Johnson in the 60′s under the guise of civil rights to win the minority vote. And Thomas Jefferson was the co-founder of the Democratic-Republican. The other co-founder was Madison. When the party split Jefferson and the republicans went to the right. Madison and the democrats went left. As for me trying to make you angry you are already are.

  • elvenkingx1

    I notice the above poster is a fan of Progressives. What is probably left out is that, historically, Progressives had some serious problems had are the last ones who should be wagging their judgmental fingers at others. President Woodrow Wilson, a leading Democrat and Progressive, was an avowed racist who help bring about the revival of the second Ku Klux Klan and whose praise of the film “The Birth of a Nation” rolled back some of the progress in life made by African Americans. Another famous Progressive, Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, was associated with Nazis and promoted euthanasia and abortion that focused in the poorer and minority communities.

    Then to say that Democrats are closer to Lincoln shows a clear ignorance of history. The Party of Lincoln was focused on preserving the Union and ending slavery. The same arguments used to justify slavery are an exact corollary to those used to justify abortion today.

    Jefferson, on the other hand, was still in the Federalist/Anti-Federalist era with different issues. He was for education, the continuation of slavery while advocating freedom for whites, agrarian farming, and defeating the Tripoli pirates. He was considered more radical than Alexander Hamilton’s conservatism.

    Modern Democrats trace their history to Andrew Jackson, another avowed racist who was responsible for the Trail of Tears that forced the Five Civilized Tribes to lose their land and in many cases, their lives.

    At any rate, all of this is off the original topic, which is the claim that Democrat leaders are victims of violence led by Republicans. Like I said, just look at history and you will see that Democrats have a long history of disturbances, hate and violence.

    And I see all this as an outsider who is an independent who has voted all over the map. Where the Republicans are wrong, I will gladly point it out, but in this case they are not and the Democrats are using this claim of victimhood just to cover up the fact that they passed an unpopular bill that in the long run will cause more harm than good. I work in health care and know more than a little something about economics. This will likely cause our credit rating to go down and will lead the way to bankruptcy. As such the Democrats and Obama will have to take the blame for ruining our country. Then we will see real violence, not stoked by Republicans, but by people out of work and starving.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Most of the large cities in which the democrats have be in charge of over the last fifty plus years are failing.”
    .
    I live in a city called New York City.
    .
    I am a commercial real estate agent.
    .
    We are thriving and experiencing the recovery already.
    .
    Wow am I glad that I live in a small town rather than one of those big cities dominated by Democrats.
    .
    Arizona!
    They must be controlled by the Democrats.
    They are giving criminals early release to handle their budget.
    .
    Wait, wait, wait…
    .
    Ooooh.
    .
    Arizona is Republican and having huge problems and New York State is Democratic and only having mild problems.
    .
    New York City has been dominated by Democrats for the past one hundred years or more and is eight million people but is thriving.
    .
    “The Kenndys and by Johnson in the 60′s under the guise of civil rights to win the minority vote.”

    .
    “Reagan called King a communist. He wanted to gut the Voting Rights Act and the civil rights laws.”
    .
    http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-1536221.html
    .
    That’s a very interesting assertion.
    .
    Democrats had nearly 100% of the Southern vote before Civil rights.
    .
    Try this again:
    .
    Kennedy and Johnson risked their political careers for civil rights years after the Republicans ignored blacks because they neither had many votes nor much money to contribute towards campaigns.
    .
    Thomas Jefferson died in 1809.
    The party split in 1824.
    .
    The modern Republican party began in 1856.
    .
    Jefferson can be traced through to Barack Obama in one party.
    .
    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Oh yeah,
    .
    You caught us!
    .
    Republicans were doing things like calling Rev Dr Martin Luther King Jr a communist and watering down the civil rights act and – zoom – Democrats “hijacked” black voters.
    .
    When was it in the Democrats interest to give up votes from everywhere South of the Mason Dixon line and East of the Mississippi River as well as Texas?
    .
    Maybe, in order to get Southern racists to vote Republican, Republicans opposed many parts of civil rights.
    .
    Here is the late Republican strategist Lee Atwater’s deathbed confession about Republicans and civil rights:
    Atwater:” As to the whole Southern strategy that Harry Dent and others put together in 1968, opposition to the Voting Rights Act would have been a central part of keeping the South. Now [the new Southern Strategy of Ronald Reagan] doesn’t have to do that. All you have to do to keep the South is for Reagan to run in place on the issues he’s campaigned on since 1964 and that’s fiscal conservatism, balancing the budget, cut taxes, you know, the whole cluster.

    “Questioner: But the fact is, isn’t it, that Reagan does get to the Wallace voter and to the racist side of the Wallace voter by doing away with legal services, by cutting down on food stamps?

    “Atwater: You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can’t say “nigger”—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states’ rights and all that stuff. You’re getting so abstract now [that] you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I’m not saying that. But I’m saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.”"
    .
    Now, try and tell me that this wouldn’t have made Abe Lincoln puke.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I said all along that the two parties switched places gradually from Theodore Roosevelt through to FDR.
    .
    As for Abortion, I am a pro-lifer. It is rare to find an atheist who is pro-life, but here I am.
    .
    But, since Republicans are doing everything possible to defend the “Free Market” (an economist’s thought experiment of conditions which never exist in real life) trampling all over the income and services people need to support children, I have absolutely no interest in the Republicans.
    .
    Slavery is different from abortion.
    .
    Republicans had both houses and the white house all to themselves and what did they do to Roe vs Wade from 2000 through 2006? Nothing.
    .
    Neither party is really proposing pro-life legislation in congress other than Democrat Bart Stupack and he didn’t even notice that health care reform does not change the Hyde Amendment.
    .
    If Republicans knew what they were doing and were pro-life and, truly, pro-family, they would have been voting for this bill and putting in laws banning abortion outside of rape, incest and risk to the woman’s life.
    .
    No, the Republicans are not the actual pro-life party. They used you and your churches the same way they used racism to win over the South when Democrats stood up and demanded civil rights.
    .
    If Roe vs Wade is overturned, churches will no longer be supporting Republicans and policies to deny the working poor health care.

  • link999

    It’s true I’m a republican. Are there good and republicans? Yes. Do I vote just republican all the time. No. Does that mean I’ll vote democrat if I don’t agree with what my party does? No. Does that mean I’ll vote ind. just to hack off both parties? No. Your right to vote is also your right. But you have a responsibility when you vote to know who, how, why, and when to. If your just voting just because your angry and for people or programs that are wrong then you hate America. If you don’t read are know what your even arguing and understand any of it then You hate America. I’m not posting to get away from the topic I’m responding to a posting “Why do republicans hate America.” The whole point was to expose the ill-informed democrat for who he was. I’ll never tell anyone to vote republican just to be petty. I’ll never force any to vote republican just because you were given a reward. I don’t expect a vote for the republicans in turn for an oblogation. So when I go vote and if do cast my vote I know that it was for the right reason. Not because it was owed.

  • link999

    Again you are confused in your argument.By saying that the republicans should of did things against what the people wanted. The reason for not doing anything is not because we hate America. It because we have the freedom of choice. And taking away someone’s freedom of choice because democrats can is wrong. I personally don’t care about the choices of you make. Pro-life, pro-choice or believing god or not. These are freedom of choices. Slavery on the other was not a freedom choice. When the American government takes away your freedom of choice then it’s not America.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    For the record, I have voted Republican.
    I voted for Chris Shays when I was in that district since the only difference between him and his opponent was that he had more experience.
    .
    Unfortunately neither candidate was pro-life, either.
    .
    Also, in more local elections in that area, I voted for a Republican who was speaker of the state house of Representatives which was a great thing for a far, far Western part of the state more a part of New York than Connecticut in any other way.
    .
    Then again, with that Republican speaker of the state house… He was running unopposed. The blank space next for the Democrat really didn’t have a good platform and I would have hated to see a blank space make an acceptance speech, either.
    . :)
    .
    I already said that, one hundred and fifty years ago, the two parties were reversed.
    .
    Back then I would have been a Lincoln Republican.
    .
    One hundred and fifty years ago, I, also, would have to use an outhouse and be unable to find a way to bathe more than once or twice a week at best.
    .
    Damn this is a better time to be alive!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I linked on a previous post to a New York Times poll in July 2009 showing an overwhelming majority supporting health care reform.
    .
    Another person posted an interesting brake down of the numbers:
    5% Unsure.
    43% Opposed.
    39% Support.
    13% Want reforms to go further.
    .
    So, this is like a dimmer for a light, not like an on/off switch.
    .
    When the media (supposedly soooooo liberal and soooo supportive Obama) shortened it, is said “61% against this bill”.
    .
    The Republican’s no reform: 43% support 52% opposed.
    .
    Democratic plan, moderate reform: 39% like it, 13% like it as a first step and 43% oppose it.
    .
    So, who was voting closer to what the mixed public opinion was?
    .
    Democrats!
    .
    Why vote for something unpopular?
    .
    Ask your local Republican leadership.
    .
    Also, keep in mind that there are many 100% misinformed people who believe that there will be “death panels”.
    .
    The “end of life counseling” was a Republican added concept of including hospices for the terminally ill in coverage. These hospices already exist, are often owned and run by churches. They provide an extra pleasant nursing home experience, more visitation time and, for the religious ones, more time praying at the end of life.
    .
    So, by the time the very confused (who knows 4% – 15%… I can’t make an educated guess) come into it and realize that there is nothing like that, the numbers will be even better for the pro-Health care side. (Which happens to be Democrats).
    .
    Then, to top it off, we forget that the US is not the only country on the planet or in the industrialized world. In all other industrialized countries, people were, at first, split just over 50/50 and, a few years later, would shoot anybody who tried to take their doctor away.
    .
    Margaret Thatcher would have been signing her own death warrant if she tried to take away national health in England and didn’t even try.
    .
    She just cut back on spending until the queuing for health doctors and medicine started getting long and the Labor party finally came to the rescue.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “freedom to choose”
    If you do not have the income to pay for health insurance, you have to go through the process at the emergency room.
    .
    Health care reform gives the working poor a choice to reach into their pocket, take out the insurance card their employer is required to give them and go to the doctor.
    .
    Also, it gives the employer the choice which insurer they take.
    .
    Employers gain freedom and employees gain freedom.
    .
    Health insurance companies gain competition if later versions include the public option and, if the rates keep on going up, regulation from the federal government.
    .
    Republicans keep on mistaking freedom for non-breathing non-thinking corporations with no outside personhood with people who do exist outside of work.
    .
    Freedom for people, an extra bill which could lead to very, very small price increases in low wage businesses when passed on for businesses.
    .
    Freedom for people.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Imagine that you own a classic small business in an industry that very rarely insures it’s workers: a classic American diner.
    .
    I love a good diner. We have plenty of them here in New York.
    .
    You work with your workers sixty hours per week. They are your friends. You see them more often than your other friends and family combined.
    .
    You wish you could provide them health care insurance.
    .
    If you do, you will have to raise prices and your competition will take away all of your customers.
    .
    Now, since your competition will, also, have to pay for health care insurance, they will raise their prices with you.
    .
    Hence, you have more freedom than you used to.
    .
    Did I hurt Chrysler’s feelings?
    .
    Wait, Chrysler doesn’t have any feelings.
    .
    More so, former chairman Lee Iaccoca is a big fan of health care reform.
    .
    So, who is loosing freedom?
    .
    Nobody.

  • link999

    I personally didn’t care if they passed or not. Are what the benefits or non-benefits are. I don’t really care about whatever poll from whatever paper you got it from. It still take my freedom of choice. You an atheist should apperciate that freedom of choice. You would not liked it if us god fearing people democrats and republican decided for your own good that you had to believe in God. And if didn’t you’d be fined or put in jail or executed for your choice. Believe me when I tell you there are God fearing democrats. And if it ment that it would get them what they wanted they would vote with God fearing republicans to get it. Now how does democratic buddies sound under this secenrio.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    How about if the city passed zoning laws which would allow a church or house of worship in my area?
    .
    That gives options to my neighbors.
    .
    That is what this is about.
    .
    It makes it possible to go to the doctor for the working poor.
    .
    Zoning allowing a church in my neighborhood is not a bad thing. If a Catholic church moves into that space, my Mom might spend all day Sunday here without having to worry that she hadn’t been to church on Saturday instead.
    .
    If the space does not get used for a church, then that is fine with me, too.
    .
    If somebody gets an insurance card and does not go to a doctor, that is fine, too.
    .
    Now people can decide to go to a doctor or not to go to a doctor.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Businesses, not people, get fined.
    .
    I am self employed and, therefore, both a person and a business.
    .
    If my business involved heavy lifting (which it does not) I would be fined if I did not buy worker’s compensation insurance.
    .
    Don’t want to get fined and this is your worst nightmare in life – work for somebody else.
    .
    Executed?
    Executed?
    That is incredibly out of the scope of this.

  • link999

    Again you are making no scense at all. Your making an argument on assumptions. I’m not a small business owner. You assume that I’m interested what you love. Then you think I’m a Iaccoca fan. I don’t hold any loyalites to any big industries. I had relatives work for Chrysler they also worked for Auburn, Dusenberg and Cord. Notice the last three did not get bailouts. I had other relatives that worked in other factories and belonged to unions. They’re told by these same unions if they supported them and their ideas they would have better lives and pay. They did and in return they got screwed. Not only my relatives but the towns those factories were in. The same applies to the Auburn, Dusenberg, Cord, or any of the hundred plus auto companies that was here in America at one time that did not get a bailout.

  • link999

    Wrong if you read the bill which is law. It States Anyone not having coverage “WILL BE FINED OR PUT IN JAIL OR BOTH.”

  • link999

    The Law also says that no persons are to be turned away untreated from hospitals or clinics in the first place.

  • cisright54

    “Obama has made appearances on Fox.
    .
    He has never tried nor could he expect to succeed had he the wish to, to take the license from Fox “News”.”

    Yes he has, to monopolize the conversation, when it has suited his purposes. And “the truth” as you like to put it, why is it buried somewhere in a well over 2000+! page bill somewhere, somewhere that even Obama himself stuttered and stammered over when he was asked the particulars of it? Could that be by design you think? Sure sounded like that to the majority of Americans.

    “He has never tried nor could he expect to succeed had he the wish to, to take the license from Fox “News”.”

    You obviously, or more likely blithely and conveniently, have missed any references to Mark Lloyd, Obama’s “FCC Czar” whose desires include fining or taxing out existence any talk radio stations who don’t happen to meet his particular definition of “diversity”. Forget about ratings, forget about what people want to listen to, in his version of a “free market” society. That doesn’t sound like never trying or expecting to succeed at taking over cable news outlets if they didn’t fit w/ his ideology. To me it sounds exactly the opposite.

    “…his next course of action is to not appear on Fox and ignore them.”

    Uhh, yeah(sic!). You again blithely and oh so conveniently “forgot” to mention that the tactic of “ignoring” was already tried in regards to Fox and failed miserably, hence Obama having to come back to Fox w/ his tail tucked between his legs and try to stammer and stutter and bully the interviewer w/ idiotic filibustering instead of straight-forwardly answering questions that should have been answered over the last 15 months, to an audience that makes up a larger audience than all other cable news networks combined.

    “Crimes have been committed by people enraged about the successful passing of health care reform.”

    Umm, no again actually. That again is nothing more than a media smear cloaked in “journalism”(sic), namely being certain about the cause of something w/o any factual basis whatsoever to back it up.
    Crimes are ALLEGED to have been committed by people enraged about the successful passing of health care reform. No one has yet been arrested, placed on a list of suspects, or been labeled by law enforcement authorities as a “person of interest” in any investigation. If you can provide a link to substantiated stories as such, many people would absolutely love to be privy to that information, because it sure hasn’t been coming from any even semi-reputable news sources that I’ve seen.

    “pleas tell me where one looks next if…”

    THEY INVESTIGATE. They INVESTIGATE and don’t exclude the probability that at least a sizable number of these alleged “crimes” juuuuust might have been done by the party that PASSED health care “reform” to demonize the opposition for a differing view and shut down any further dialog involving opposition to anything Obama does. We’ve seen it all before, “news networks” and shows cowering in the corner, too afraid to disagree w/ Obama (and by extension, anything his party does), for fear of being labeled as “racist” Throw the race card or charge gay-bashing (just charge it, mind you) and you don’t win the debate, or even HAVE the debate. That tactic SADLY SHUTS THE DEBATE DOWN. Same as what has happened here, don’t investigate the crime and charge the sad individuals (and those who may have put them up to doing the crime, if indeed they were ever committed at all), just go ahead and smear the entire opposition.

    “So, we can rule out all people who do support health care reform.”

    No, actually no “we”(lol) obviously CAN’T. Political parties have AGENDAS. ALL OF THEM DO, and none of them are above framing any of the others for ALLEGED crimes, in order to advance their political agendas.

    “Who are they?
    CEOs for health insurers and the Tea Party movement.”

    And with your last gem of faux (psychic maybe)-investigative “wisdom”(sic!), you have ACTUALLY GONE FURTHER (as mind-bendingly bizarre a conclusion as it is!), than even your obvious mentors have gone. You’ve actually narrowed it down. ROTFL!!! Now the back and forth has actually borne comic fruit, (at least for me, you sure you’ve never tried stand-up comedy before? Because you truly ARE HILARIOUS!). PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE regale us all w/ your “list” of all of these “criminal CEO’s” of whom you speak, and OF COURSE, flesh that list out w/ as many specific examples of “criminality” as you possibly can. By all means, LOAD IT UP! I’d gladly supply all of those on your “criminals list” w/ copies of your charges of criminality. At least you’d possibly be kept busy in court defending yourself against numerous charges of libel, instead of pecking meaningless (yet scarily hilarious!) rants here. Thanks for giving me tons of laughs today, but sadly, I must depart from the conversation, as it appears that you’re appear completely tapped out of any more convincing points of view backed up w/ any kind of factual basis whatsoever. Been fun though. Really.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I said that I – not you – am self employed.
    .
    How would I possibly know who you are?
    .
    I did say that Iaccoca supported health care. He is one example of successful big business managers who see it as a good thing for American competition.
    .
    I did not say that I have any idea who you are or if you like Iaccoca.
    .
    Your screen name is not “Iamanindepdentwhohatesiaccocaandworksforsomebodyelse.”
    .
    If it did, then I would know this about you.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I have a copy of the bill from Time downloaded.
    .
    What page is this on?
    .
    I saw one thing which said something about a $96 fine. I do not know if that $96 per month, per year, per day, per person per month….
    .
    It is huge.
    .
    Give me the page number.
    .
    We do agree that execution is not in the bill.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    That is a reaffirmation of existing law regarding hospitals and hospital related clinics that I know of.
    .
    It may be more inclusive than previous law, but, hospitals never turn people away and have not been permitted to for at least thirty years if not much longer.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    You do know that the NYPD is a majority Republican and would, happily, arrest Anthony Wiener if he committed the hoax against himself, don’t you?
    .
    Second, even the most biased supreme court that ever lived would not allow Fox to be taxed more than other stations nor allow it to be shut down unless it violates non-political laws like the F word, etc, etc.
    So, with mostly Republican appointees, unless you believe that George W Bush and Bush Sr created a conspiracy to put in secret anti-free speech people into the supreme court, the bill would be thrown out by the first lawsuit.
    .
    As a matter of fact, due to the simplicity of the matter, any federal court could nullify a law closing down radio and television stations for any reason other than existing FCC bans on obscenity.
    .
    Unless Ann Coulter is going to have sex with Sean Hannity on the Fox News set in public, you can be sure that Fox News will be on the air until the public gets sick of their distortions and it closes on it’s own.
    .
    Third, I have a copy of the bill I downloaded from Time.
    .
    Please show me the page this takeover takes place.
    .
    Fourth, I do not know of Obama or his administration calling his opponents racist.
    .
    Fifth, I have no idea what homosexuality has to do with anything, but, this is a bill which is important to me as a heterosexual man since, when I marry and – doing something a homosexual can not – impregnate the woman I am in love with, health care would be a nightmare if it were not for this reform.
    .
    Your rantings are out of control and I have trouble taking you seriously.

  • link999

    I must admit I do not know exact page numbers. I don’t need any reaffirmation of existing laws. And execution was an example how some good God fearing people used to deal with non believers back in the dark ages.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    It seems like, for this issue most dramatically, people opposed to this legislation do not get, probably the biggest thing to deal with in a democracy: You win some you lose some.
    .
    Being drafted into wars, being taxed, being fined and having your businesses regulated in order to protect an agenda of other citizens who outnumber you is a part of life.
    .
    I see soar losers.
    .
    We aren’t drafting anybody. Business owners will have a new responsibility for their workers who want their businesses to provide this since those particular businesses do not and are not being required to pay much higher wages so that the employees can pay for these things themselves.
    .
    When I see this, I think of how many people would want to make the minimum wage $15 per hour. Businesses should be thankful that nobody is contemplating that, since that kind of a wage would pay for health care, but, also, drive businesses under. (Which is worse than making $10 per hour for the worker).
    .
    You win some, you lose some.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I called my Mom to talk about Easter plans and explained how I was killing all day with this.
    .
    She told me that if my car explodes she’ll know that it was the Tea Party. :)
    (She was kidding – since I am not even vaguely important like a congressman. I’m a dude in my living room.)
    .
    BTW: My late father was a Republican. He just wasn’t an angry guy like the Tea Partiers.
    .

  • http://trsolomon.wordpress.com trsolomon

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED, — THAT WHENEVER ANY FORM OF GOVERNMENT BECOMES DESTRUCTIVE OF THESE ENDS, IT IS THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO ALTER OR ABOLISH IT..”.

    When Congress/House/Executive branches time and time again ignore the will of the people it’s time to get rid of them. I for one look forward to November and again to November 7th 2012 so we can get this country back to where it should be, not where it’s heading under the current administration…

    The current Tea Party movement arose from frustration that our elected officials are not working in the best interests of their constituencies, or of the people as a whole. It’s this level of frustration that is causing people to lash out. If these elected officials would listen to the people instead of thinking they know what is best for the people things would be much different. However this plays out, America will be a much different place in 2012; for better or for worse.

  • elvenkingx1

    If you want to look for violence you have no farther to look than your good ‘ole Democrat Party. They practically invented violence in America. From the KKK to radicals who caused a wave of destruction during the 1968 Democrat primary to the many death threats and actual acts of violence against Republicans and leaders during the Bush administration to the most recent acts of aggression since Obama ran for office to the present, when Democrats shot at Republican congressman Eric Cantor, the Democrats have been full of hate and violence.

    After all, one of Obama’s mentors was part of a group of Left-wing terrorist bombers. So if I were you, I wouldn’t be so quick to point the finger at the Tea Partiers when there are no confirmations of violent activity by them, but there are plenty by Democrats.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    You’ve got to get your history right:
    “…the KKK to radicals who caused a wave of destruction during the 1968 Democrat primary…”
    .
    The KKK wasn’t in Chicago in 1968.
    .
    The peace movement, which was supported by Rev Dr. Martin Luther King Jr was protesting the convention and Mayor Daily will forever live in infamy for the famous over reaction of the Chicago police.
    .
    The actions of the Chicago police had caused such an uproar that police nationwide had been retrained to be far less violent in their responses to protests and to carry away demonstrators without inflicting so much harm.
    .

    .

    .
    Obviously no sane person would call the KKK progressive.
    .
    Today the KKK has been taken in by the Republic Party such as David Duke switching parties in 1968.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke
    .
    Bringing in racist votes has been a Republic Party strategy since the Reagan Administration by Lee Atwater.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater#Atwater_on_the_Southern_Strategy
    .
    Eric Cantor says that he had previously had death threats because he is Jewish. That sounds like KKK threats,in the past. Maybe this is another KKK threat. Who knows?
    .
    Anthony Wiener has his offices less than a mile from where I live and work and, even though he is Jewish, has not had any threats until now.
    .
    http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/White-Powder-Package-Sent-to-Weiners-Office-Likely-Antacid-89281087.html
    .

    “..death threats and actual acts of violence against Republicans and leaders during the Bush administration to the most recent acts of aggression since Obama ran for office to the present,..”
    .
    No such thing has happened unless fellow Republic Party members who are members of KKK were doing it.

    .
    If I am mistaken, please show me some facts.I gave you links, now, you back up your story.
    .
    Many Democrats believe that the Tea Party, now representing the rights of businesses over people are former KKK who wish to “defend” slave ownership against big, Northern government.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    In the context of GOP violence, your emphasizing the word “Abolish” can be misconstrued.
    .
    I am a part of the 52% who want some health care reform and not a part of the “ignored” 43% who want no changes made.
    .
    I would hate it if the Tea Party does anything to try to abolish this government.
    .
    Democrats love America.
    .
    Some Tea Partiers want to Abolish America.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Offensive joke:
    “What do all abused women have in common?”
    .
    “They JUST DON’T LISTEN!”
    .
    That is one of the evilest jokes I ever heard, but, in reality, what do wife beaters say about the wives they beat, that would be answer.
    .
    Do you think Tea partiers should stop beating their wives?

  • sacredh

    It’s still funny. Most jokes offend somebody. It’s people that take everything seriously that we can’t take seriously.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    When he wrote, “If these elected officials would listen” didn’t you picture a guy wearing a tank top at a trailer park saying, “…but she don’t listen to me! I had to hit her!”
    .
    That’s what I heard when this guy started capitalizing the word ABOLISH the government.

  • elvenkingx1

    Yes, they should stop beating their wives. But the Democrats should stop beating theirs first. (Couldn’t resist get that one it; the opening was too good to resist.)

  • elvenkingx1

    “You’ve got to get your history right:
    “…the KKK to radicals who caused a wave of destruction during the 1968 Democrat primary…”
    .
    The KKK wasn’t in Chicago in 1968.”

    I think you need to re-read what I wrote because you left out the word “from.” In doing so you created a straw man since you changed the meaning of what I wrote. I know the KKK wasn’t involved with the 1968 Chicago fiasco. I was talking about the history of Democrat violence that stretched FROM the KKK TO the radicals who pushed for McGovern, etc.

    And David Duke wasn’t “taken in” by the “Republic Party.” After he ran as a Republican the Republican leadership disavowed him and told its members to vote for the Democrat. After all, Duke was previously a Democrat. He did what he considered expedient, but the Republican Party rejected him. (What votes he did get appear to be based on a statement his opponent made about raising property taxes, not an agreement with his racism.) Did the Democrats reject him when he was one of theirs? (All of this is in the Wikipedia link on Duke that you included.)

    But you ought to look at a long-time senator who was in the Klan and whose party did not repudiate him: Robert Byrd. He not only was in the KKK, but opposed the Civil Rights Act, voted against the only two black Supreme Court justices (Thurgood Marshall and Clarence Thomas), and as recently as 2001 referred to “white n*****s” on national TV.

    As for Lee Atwater and the Southern Strategy of Reagan, although Atwater did not run his 1980 campaign, if that is true it was wrong and since I’m not a Republican it doesn’t bother me to say so. On the other hand: Two days later, Reagan appeared at the Urban League convention in New York, where he said, “I am committed to the protection and enforcement of the civil rights of black Americans. This commitment is interwoven into every phase of the plans I will propose.”[7] He then said that he would develop “enterprise zones” to help with urban renewal.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1980).

    A reasoned explanation of the Republican position versus Democrat position on race in recent times can be found here: http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2008/07/16/why-black-people-dont-care-that-gop-is-civil-rights-party/#comment-94853

    Since you wrote “If I am mistaken, please show me some facts.I gave you links, now, you back up your story.”

    I would like a source that shows that Tea Party members are also KKK members since you wrote this:
    .
    “Many Democrats believe that the Tea Party, now representing the rights of businesses over people are former KKK who wish to “defend” slave ownership against big, Northern government.”

    Are you saying this because it is true or just that many Democrats believe it to be true? If they just believe it, but it isn’t true, then you are just spreading rumors. I’m not a Tea Party member, have no affiliation with them, etc., but from all I’ve seen is that they come from all walks of life, including housewives/homemakers, young people and the elderly. They are mostly white, but in videos I have seen other ethnicities too. I’ve also seen the Democrats and Left-wingers slander them by calling them “tea-baggers,” a sexual term that most of us never heard of until they introduced it to the common vocabulary.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    The party of Martin Luther King Jr, Jessie Jackson and, obviously , Barack Obama is not a party of David Duke.
    .
    Of the two parties, Republicans were in bed with racists much later.
    .
    ” As to the whole Southern strategy that Harry Dent and others put together in 1968, opposition to the Voting Rights Act would have been a central part of keeping the South. Now [the new Southern Strategy of Ronald Reagan] doesn’t have to do that. All you have to do to keep the South is for Reagan to run in place on the issues he’s campaigned on since 1964 and that’s fiscal conservatism, balancing the budget, cut taxes, you know, the whole cluster.

    Questioner: But the fact is, isn’t it, that Reagan does get to the Wallace voter and to the racist side of the Wallace voter by doing away with legal services, by cutting down on food stamps?

    Atwater: You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can’t say “nigger”—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states’ rights and all that stuff. You’re getting so abstract now [that] you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I’m not saying that. But I’m saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.”[7]”
    .
    This abstract type of racism is more in line with my concerns than the in-your-face, fortunately, very tiny KKK.
    .
    “…”tea-baggers,” a sexual term that most of us never heard of…”.
    I forgot the meaning of that until you reminded me.
    .
    It was the kind of thing guys in college dorms would make jokes about when there were no girls around (but wished there were).
    .
    Calling the health care package which just came up as something which tramples on somebody or something as the Tea Partiers say, means one of three possible things:
    .
    1) As uninsured employees, being asked to sign their name to say that they received their health insurance card is a vile and unimaginable oppression.
    .
    2) As self employed, keeping the same insurance that they have is a vile and unimaginable oppression.
    .
    3) Supporting corporations over human beings rights, they dislike the businesses they own or invest in being told to do something for it’s uninsured workers.
    .
    Tell me that none of this is about keeping benefits out of the hands of the working poor including minorities?
    .
    I will have a hard time believing that none of them or even more than half of them have not thought of a false image of a lazy minority spending too much time at the doctor.
    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Eleven, you, also missed other things:
    .
    1) You have not found any examples of Democratic violence during the George W. Bush administration.
    .
    2) In 1968 the violent radicals were the Chicago Police, not the peace activists. You saw Dan Rather getting punched in the stomach by plain clothed officers.
    .
    3) Unless you have a source that I do not, Reagan never created those enterprise zones as Democrat Robert Kennedy had promised before he was killed in 1968. There are a few enterprise zones created by the states, but not the federal government in the US.
    .
    4) Reagan, as was said, did bring up the coded term “states rights”. It meant in any racial context for the state to have a “right” not to protect minorities as was a racist argument. He may not have let or encouraged states to revert to Jim Crow laws, but, he sought racist votes.
    .
    Sure there is the wholesome view of state or even town management so that you can find the person who handles the big decisions in your grocery store or at church on Sunday and personally work on government problems with the head honcho with the head honcho being a local guy. But that has been proven highly impractical for almost everything now done on a federal level.
    .
    5) I am imagining anybody besides business owners, investors and people who believe that the working poor (disproportionately minority – but somewhat more whites than blacks nationwide) are lazy or unworthy.
    .
    I got from a Tea Partier “health care is a privilege” .
    .
    A privilege is what you deny or threaten to deny your children for misbehavior.
    .
    “Johnny if you don’t clean up your room, we’re not getting pizza tonight.”
    Pizza is a privilege.
    .
    “Johnny if you don’t stop fighting with your sister, I’m not going to let you watch any more television for the rest of the night.”:
    Television is a privilege.
    .
    “Johnny, if you don’t go to your room and finish your homework, we’re not taking you to get chemotherapy tomorrow.”
    That sounds like a parent who belongs in jail.
    .
    So, we can safely say that the Tea Partiers who are against this very modest form of health care consider the working poor unworthy of basic necessities.
    .
    Some may be the ones who, also, fell into Atwater’s coded racism.
    .
    The fact that 55% are women does not meant that it is any less likely to be racist than if it were 100% men.
    Racism is not exclusively a male thing.

  • http://trsolomon.wordpress.com trsolomon

    Abolish in the context of get rid of sitting politicians…I’m all for it. They are there for the people, not to reach in the federal coffers to see what they can nab for their district in a vague attempt to secure reelection. As for this holy grail of healthcare take a look at this interview:

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,589754,00.html

    Very telling. Ignore whatever you like in the interview but pay attention to the treasurer’s comments and see if you think this administration is taking the right approach to reform.

    Lastly, my capitalization was to draw attention to the fact that when the people get fed up things happen. It happened before; just read the words of the Declaration again and let it sink in; and try to do away with the misdirection and sad platitudes.

    I, like several others here served my country for 23 years. I’m proud of that, I’m not proud of where it’s currently heading. But everything is temporary, things will eventually change, I just hope the US is the one I remember when it’s all over. As Reagan said, a government program is the closest thing to eternal life any of us will ever see.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    trsolomon,
    .
    First, our government was not listening to you because you are now in the minority.
    Obviously you are absolutely, positively welcome to persuade others to make yourselves a majority, but, so far, it has not suceeded.
    .
    Second, I spent most of my adult life in Massachusetts and returned to New York only five years ago. I know Boston like the back of my hand and, compared to New York, it is very, very fiscally conservative. (Gay marriage and the social agenda is the primary platform of the Democrats in Massachusetts who had all Republican governors for fourteen years of when I was there). One of my brothers moved up there before I moved out and still lives and raises his children in Mass. He never brought up a crisis and is an Obama supporter.
    .
    Third, do a Google search for “Massachusetts hospitals bankrupt” and you will find this: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-8739230.html.
    .
    That hospital was in big trouble with only 92 beds for five years. That was before Romneycare came in.
    .
    Having lived there for that long, I know that Universities and large, extremely specialized teaching hospitals are the only two things which economically stop Boston from sliding into the harbor and vanishing.
    .
    So, Obama’s health care will not prevent already failing hospitals from failing.
    .
    Agreed.
    .
    Fine.
    .
    I have a cousin who migrated to Canada (no, not because of the Bush Administration , but that didn’t hurt her decision) who is in health care and finds it wonderful.
    .
    Also, having the best health care of any state in the region pulls in the sick from neighboring states. Unless immigration policy changes, we will not be pulling in the sick from the third world. So, it is not easy to compare systems.
    .
    Hawaii has a system more liberal than this and is doing spectacularly well.
    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/17/health/policy/17hawaii.html.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    trsolomon,
    .
    Many of us slam on the Fox Right Wing Opinion Channel because Fox succeeds in it’s false claim of being “fair and balanced”. (You can get both the Bush point of view and the Cheney Point of view was the running joke).
    .
    Fox found one person to bring up kinks in the Massachusetts system, which is, basically, liked by the majority.
    .
    Hawaii has those thousands of miles of ocean to protect it from freeloaders from other states just as the United States (and Canada) have immigration laws which will prevent people from third world countries from coming in and freeloading as soon as they get sick and moving away instead of paying taxes or paying health insurance bills when they get healthy.
    .
    All other developed democratic countries started out with controversy over health care, found one system or another of a unified system with the anti-reformers starting out very angry and, soon, reality set in and it became as normal for them as having the cities and towns rather than individuals pave the streets, have libraries and public schools.
    .
    A news channel, especially one seeking to be “fair and balanced” would have surveys of both Massachusetts and Hawaii before that news story and put Cahill and a supporter of health care reform from Massachusetts on the show. Then they would have no choice but to put a Hawaii supporter on the show since there are very, very few (if any) objections to Hawaii’s 1974 health care plan.
    .
    Many of us believe that the tea party movement is a product of Fox News and we all have very strong reason to believe that Fox News is very eager to encourage a corporate over consumer, corporate over labor, extremely conservative agenda through their network’s choices of who to put on and who not to put on their programs.

  • http://trsolomon.wordpress.com trsolomon

    I think you should not dismiss the sitting treasurer of Massachusetts so easily. He is the person sitting in the seat and the person who knows exactly what is going on. He says:

    “We’ve been fighting — as a treasurer, I’ve been trying to balance the budget for the past two years and wondering where all the money is going. And what we’ve discovered in the official statement that the governor and I signed that all the money, increase money is going to Medicaid and to this health care reform — by over 52 percent increase over these last four years, over and above the rate of inflation. No other budget item in our budget has gone up even close to that. So, that’s where I say, be careful, country, because it’s going to bankrupt us. I mean, without this federal reimbursement, we would haven’t the money to pay for regular services in the state of Massachusetts.”

    Pretty hard to refute that, I’m sorry but I’m going to take the treasurer’s word that it’s bankrupting the state over your opinion.

    Also I lived in Hawaii from 1967-1974, the state is small, and a very small subsection of the country as a whole. They could institute any health care system they chose and make it work because they have the dollars to do that.

    I lived in Northbay CA for 2 years; it was the most abysmal health care system I had ever seen. I went back to the US for acute care. This was doubly true when I was in England. This approach to health care is wrong, it is wrong from a fiscal sense to take on an enormous debt burden when we’re already struggling. It will lead to hyperinflation. It is wrong from the political sense because the majority of the people don’t want any part of it.

    Why are the dems in such a rush to do this? Don’t you think we should get America back to work first, and get the economy settled down before we attempt something this big? It’s irresponsible and just poor timing.

    And if you look back, Obama didn’t win by a landslide; his approval ratings are the pits. He’s going to bring down other Dems who support him when it’s their time for reelection. I’m not in the minority here, last week 57% of the people still opposed this legislation, and as I said earlier, the elected officials run off, and irresponsibly pass this legislation, ignoring the will of the people. I have no idea how anyone could look at this situation and determine its a good thing.

    For the record, I’m an independent, and more of a centrist, but what I’ve seen in the last year is appalling. On these issues I’m leaning to the right.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I was in college during the 1992 election and part of Economics classes involved studying health care abroad since it was a part of things governments can and, outside of the US, have started doing since 1883 (Germany – health care is almost as old as the country is, since it was in many parts not long before then).
    .
    I trust Hawaiian majority, economics PhDs, Western Europeans (who think our country is nuts for not having this by the 1960s or earlier) over one man who has an agenda since he is running for governor and just recovered from a scandal:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Cahill_%28politician%29
    .
    “…because [Hawaiians] have the dollars to do that..”
    .
    Massachusetts ranks just below Hawaii for per capita income:
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_the_United_States_of_America_by_income
    .
    Take cost of living into account and you will find that Massachusetts is far better off than Hawaii.
    .
    To live like an average Bostonian who earns $65,401, a Hawaiian would have to earn $83,087, but your average Hawaiian only earns $67,214 per year.
    .
    So, perhaps your argument would work better if you said that only poor states would do well with health care reform and wealthy ones would do poorly.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    trsolomon,
    .
    Long before proposing this, Democrats looked at polls and found an overwhelming majority supporting health care reform.
    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2009/06/21/health/policy/21poll_graphic_ready.html
    .
    The trajectory is going in the Democrats direction on health care reform.
    .
    http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/03/snapshot032910.html
    .
    So, here is how Democrats and those who supported the bill see it:
    1) The vast majority of the people were begging for health care reform.
    2) There have been successful examples all around the world since 1883.
    3) The Republicans start using scare tactics and succeed using Fox, AM radio and as, usual, the other TV stations seek to Out Fox Fox and jump on the bandwagon.
    4) The bill passes with none of the conservative nightmares coming true.
    5) The people spend seven and a half months absorbing that.
    6) Republicans face internal opposition from the Tea Party monster they created and their votes get watered down with third party Tea Party candidates.
    7) HCR being supported by the majority in most districts by November, Republicans lose.
    8) Splitting the votes with third party candidates, in the most conservative Republicans, also, lose.
    9)People go to the doctor and the US enters the mid-twentieth century for government.
    10) The Tea Party, turns on Republicans as much as on Democrats.
    .
    More gets done for the majority of the people including – maybe, maybe – affordable higher education.
    .
    Not exactly what I think of treacherous.

  • http://trsolomon.wordpress.com trsolomon

    No, wealthy states (at least one) seem to be going broke trying to incorporate the system. Hawaiians have the dollars to do that not because of per capita income, but just from the small number of it’s citizens comparatively speaking. The state does well due to its tourism revenue and its export of produce.

    Any type of scandal that Mr. Cahill may or may not be in is not relevant toward the problem that the state is going broke trying to support a universal health care model.

    Members of the UK’s parliament have said we are crazy to consider this type of system due to the enormous problems they have with allocation of scarce medical resources since its institution in the UK. They also are having problems convincing people to become doctors (let alone specialists) because there is no longer any monetary incentive for the individual to do so. Simply put the government cannot afford to put the money into the system to make it comparable to what we already have here in the US.

    There are solutions to our coverage problems without plunging headlong into universal health care. Again I’ll ask, why are the dems in such a rush? Is there some real reason they need to get this done now and not say, one or two years from now, when we could have thought this through and come up with real solutions that satisfies most parties? I think we both know the answer to that question…

  • http://trsolomon.wordpress.com trsolomon

    Also your assumptions about the Tea Party are for the most part incorrect. From what I’ve gathered, the Tea Party does not agree with either the Republicans or the Democrats. Their tenants more closely align with the Republicans but most Tea Partiers I’ve spoken with will tell you in a flash they they don’t like the Republicans either because they have moved away from fiscal conservatism and more toward big government. They also believe that elected officials are there to serve the people and not vice versa.

    As I said before they are vocal from frustration that our government doesn’t listen to its people they are supposed to serve.

    I’m not a member, but I know quite a few people who are. Activism is a healthy part of any democracy (just ask Obama), but when it gets violent it’s out of line.

  • http://trsolomon.wordpress.com trsolomon
  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    trsolomon,
    When finding the Gallup Poll, that article was one of the ones I skimmed.
    .
    “..[S]eniors who say they understand the upcoming changes are much more apt to back the new law than those who say the plan is too complicated.
    “Support for the changes is significantly higher among Democrats and independents who say they understand the legislation than it is among those who do not. Republicans are solidly opposed, regardless of whether they think they understand the changes.”
    .
    My bet is on Grandma and Grandpa learning more and reading up on things over the next seven months.
    The Republican bet is on Grandma and Grandpa being too scared by the right wing media to start reading.
    .
    It is true that not 100% of the Tea Patiers are Republican and I have no idea what sample size you have nor where you live, but, these are the stats.:
    .
    http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1436
    .
    Only 13 percent of American voters say they are part of the Tea Party movement,
    .
    * 74 percent are Republicans or independent voters leaning Republican;
    * 16 percent are Democrats or independent voters leaning Democratic;
    * 5 percent are solidly independent;
    * 45 percent are men;
    * 55 percent are women;
    * 88 percent are white;
    * 77 percent voted for Sen. John McCain in 2008;
    * 15 percent voted for President Barack Obama.
    .
    So, if they ran an independent candidate, they would take 9.64% from a Republican candidate and only 3.26% from a Democratic candidate.
    .
    That is a net change away from Republicans of 6.38%.
    .
    Only the strongest Republicans will win if the Tea Party turns on them and, the Democrat would take that seat.
    .
    Sorry, “..doesn’t listen…” reminds me of the wife beater.
    .
    Before Fox, Palin and AM radio hosts attacked it, health care even had half of all Republicans.
    .
    I six month change of opinion soon to return is no reason to listen to you over listening to the previous majority who will, after reading, will very likely become the majority again.
    .
    “Again I’ll ask, why are the dems in such a rush?”
    It has been on the progressive agenda since progressives were a part of the Republican Party in 1912 as a part of Theodore Roosevelt’s Bull Moose Party.
    .
    98 years is not what I call a rush.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Members of the UK’s parliament have said we are crazy to consider this type of system due to the enormous problems they have with allocation of scarce medical resources since its institution in the UK.”
    .
    I presume that these are conservatives.
    .
    Except, maybe – maybe – Germany since it has been there since 1883, all of the countries with health care will have some minority of the population opposed to it.
    .
    If it is not conservatives, please link this quote.

  • http://trsolomon.wordpress.com trsolomon

    “It has been on the progressive agenda since progressives were a part of the Republican Party in 1912 as a part of Theodore Roosevelt’s Bull Moose Party.
    .
    98 years is not what I call a rush.”

    So why not wait a little while longer and come up with a solution that most can get behind? Could it be due to a lack of support and upcoming elections in November?

    Erosion of liberties, and out of touch legislators are a fairly good reason to vote them out don’t you think? We saw the beginnings in Mass., I think we’ll see even more come November. Only time will tell.

    Grandma and grandpa, mom and dad, are already in the know, and are joining the right. The majority of vocal tea partiers are of what age demographic? The American people are far from ignorant, and somewhat slow to anger. But when motivated they are a very loud voice indeed. I think there will be much more to come since I don’t see the current “crop” of beltwayers changing any time soon…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Your link, not mine, cited that many who object will, also, tell you that they themselves (not my opinion) do not know all of what is in the bill.
    .
    So far it seems to be agreed upon by the two of us, since you chose the link, that the majority of objection comes from people who admit to not knowing as much as the supporters do.
    .
    “Erosion of liberties”
    .
    This is like a theme song for people objecting to this.
    However, everybody can see that this is the way it works if you are not self employed and uninsured:
    You will be given a card by your employer for a health insurance company. You will sign for it to acknowledge that you received it. You have no obligation to ever go to the doctor.
    .
    If you are self employed and uninsured, as I am, you will be required to find a group health care plan to be arranged which is designed to cover you more affordability than you would otherwise get.
    .
    If you are self employed and have a low income, you will have to sign up for something more affordable and will receive subsidies to lower your cost.
    .
    If you are insured, self employed, employed by another or retired, you will experience no change.
    .
    So, like I said, it is the loss of erosion of the “liberty for a business” while, for the employed and uninsured (the huge majority of those who will experience a change since most self employed are not uninsured nor poor) you will gain the liberty to take yourself and your children to the doctor and/or get any medical care you need.
    .
    Why not wait longer?
    .
    It was an Obama and Democratic promise.
    .
    1992 Clinton and Democrats promised health care.
    When it failed to pass, Democrats did not have another chance to have the majority for sixteen years.
    .
    So, the choices are for Democratic voters: 98 years or 112 years of waiting for health care reform.
    .
    Also, there are a huge number of other things like immigration reform Democrats want to do in the next two years. If the Republicans win due to failure to pass a health care bill in the first term, none of that will happen until 2026, either.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Could it be due to a lack of support and upcoming elections in November?”
    .
    Support for either party is contingent upon fulfilling campaign promises.
    .
    So, yes.
    .
    If people just liked the letter D better than the letter R, then Democrats could wait forever.
    .
    We have an impatient electorate.
    .
    The Tea Party is, also, impatient.
    .
    Basically, both sides and the middle are impatient.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Do’h!
    98 plus sixteen is 114, not 112.
    .
    Sorry.
    .
    (I am critical of my own error’s too, not just that of others.)

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    trsolomon,
    .
    I am imagining two scenarios. One is what the Tea Partiers want us to believe is the case and what I do believe is the case.
    .
    #1
    An employer who did not provide insurance, now, because of the law, hands out forms to acknowledge the receipt of their new insurance cards.
    The workers are furious!.
    .
    #2
    A business owner who did not previously provide insurance is meeting with his accountant and going through a hundred pages to figure out which plan will cost the least and fulfill his legal requirements and bangs his fist against the table in annoyance.
    .
    I suspect #2.
    .
    I, also, suspect that the currently uninsured will adore this and the currently insured will vaguely appreciate that others are insured.
    .
    That’s why Pelosi and the AFL/CIO leadership call this not a “grass roots” movement but “an astroturf movement” set up both directly and through misleading conservative news sources by and for business owners since businesses, not people, will have less liberty to choose to deny a chance for a worker to go to the doctor’s or take their children to the doctors.
    .
    No, I do not believe anybody protesting is a paid actor. I believe that many are disingenuous about their motives and that many others are simply mislead.

  • http://trsolomon.wordpress.com trsolomon

    Remember the Tea Party movement started in opposition to the stimulus package and the debt (and taxes) involved with that. Their dissatisfaction with the health care debate is in part with the government forcing you to buy insurance, which many people (myself included) feel is unconstitutional. I don’t think many people feel that the uninsured should not be taken care of, it’s the way in which it gets done is where all the debate is.

    I feel the pharmaceutical companies charge far too much for their developed meds (I don’t care how much R&D it took to create it), and take far too long to allow generics to come to market. I don’t think anyone argues that insurance companies should be able to drop someone because it will cost them a bundle to secure the medical attention they need. Doctor’s pay far too much for malpractice insurance, and in turn we pay too much for defensive medicine; tort reform would go a long way to reducing costs for the doctors and in-turn for everyone else.

    But this “big evil company, or wicked rich businessman needs to pay” philosophy is doomed to failure, and IMHO is unAmerican.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    By far the most accepted economic theory is the New Keynesian theory.
    .
    The stimulus package is a part of a long series of successful actions of government to either create new net jobs or, as this did, to prevent the loss of new jobs.
    .
    It is 1930s New Deal Economics and not new at all.
    .
    Federal minimum wage since 1934 has used the federal government to require businesses to give a particular amount of money to a third party.
    .
    Workers compensation requires employers and the self employed to pay money to an insurance company beginning with laws starting in 1855.
    .
    OSHA requires employers to follow particular safety regulations set by the Federal government in private businesses,
    .
    The Supreme Court has not overruled any of these laws nor agencies.
    .
    This is old.
    .
    “UnAmerican” is the 1950s McCarthy version of political correctness. It’s a conversation stopper.
    .
    BTW: the term “PC” stood for “politically conscious” in the 1960s and 1970s in very liberal colleges regarding things like racially offensive speech. “Politically Correct” was an amusing mockery of something I found annoying and prudish myself.
    .
    We have a supreme court and, if this is unconstitutional, then it will be found unconstitutional, however, if it is, OSHA, workers compensation, federal minimum wage and many other things you may agree with will, also, be brought into court do to how legally similar they are.
    .
    I do not know this. Did a majority of the people support the stimulus package?
    I thought that we clearly did make up a majority in supporting this.
    .
    It is not, like you seem to believe, about disliking business. It is about liking people that this bill has come about.
    .
    A small business owner in a labor intensive and a price sensitive market, such as restaurants may want to, but, unable to rise prices, can not afford to give his/her employees health care.
    .
    Now that they have to, our coffee may go up in price a few cents at every place we go.

  • http://trsolomon.wordpress.com trsolomon

    As the old adage says, “the highway to hell is paved with good intentions.” Put another way, “don’t buy what you can’t afford.” Our elected officials seem to think that the taxpayers are an ever-flowing, ever-renewable source of cash. The country (i.e. you and me) cannot afford universal healthcare, the stimulus packages, cap and trade, and everything else on the Obama agenda. All the good intentions in the world will not make it so.

    In one short year the president has indebted this country more than all the other presidents combined and he’s not done. What do you think the long term prognosis is for the country saddled with that much debt? The taxes required to pay for this will put us in the 40-50% tax bracket; as Europe has shown it is unsustainable. No matter how well intentioned this all is, it’s not a prudent course of action.

    The net result will be either a partial or full repeal of most of this, at a cost of our citizen’s livelihood through a loss of viability (read jobs), the devaluation of our currency, and our loss of available credit (and loss of our AAA world rating) due to inability to repay (can you say debt again?).

    And never before has the government required the entire populace to buy anything; following rules is one thing, but to require purchase under threat of fines and jail is quite another. It’s not like you can “opt out” of this. I fear the net result will be even more companies moving out of country to survive, because the tax climate is not conducive to profit. Maybe that is Obama’s real agenda? You asked for change, here it comes…

    Caterpillar today announced that they expect in the first year alone the new health care laws to cost them $150,000,000. If this isn’t passed on to the consumer the company will have to take it in the shorts (can you say loss of jobs). If they do raise prices to absorb the loss, how do they stay competitive in the world market? This whole thing is a lose-lose for America. It’s a tad bit more than a few cents everywhere we go.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    1) Do you believe that Germany in 1883 or England in 1945 was doing better than the US is now?
    If other countries could do it with less money, then why would this be so impossible for us.
    .
    2) Increasing debt temporarily while in a recession is the normal economic strategy.
    .
    3) Our largest debts were in the 1940s, 50′s and 60′s – some of the best years of economic growth in our country’s history.
    .
    4) Lee Iaccoca, one of the most successful CEOs of a large corporation was saying that we should have this for the past twenty years and that it would lead jobs to come back to America since the pre-reform system was more expensive than Canadian taxes.
    .
    5)Like I just told you, we have had laws requiring employers and the self employed to do things.
    .
    6)Why would Obama want businesses to do anything other than to make record profits and employ more and more people.
    .
    I have NPR on right now and it just seems like there the Tea Partiers, as well what you are saying, is a script. It is the same thing over and over and over.
    .
    It is easy to believe that you are all listening to AM radio and watching Fox News and just repeating what you are being told.
    .
    It is unbelievable.

  • http://trsolomon.wordpress.com trsolomon

    No one tells me what to say, or how to say it, I have my own (in some cases rather strong) opinions based in my own experience. If what I have to say sounds familiar it stands to reason that others must feel the same way.

    I find it difficult to believe that democrats think all of this is a good thing, while at the same time downplaying the major problems like a ballooning debt. This much debt is not temporary, quite the contrary, if it keeps growing at this pace we’ll never get a handle on it, hyperinflation is a reality and a serious one; one we cannot afford to let happen.

    I owned my own business for 5 years, I know all about the rules and regulations, both state and federal of the requirements of operation. These are not related to requiring individuals buy health care or go to jail. Sorry not the same thing.

    Why would Obama want businesses to do anything other than make record profits and employ more and more people? Simple, control, he wants people to rely on the government instead of business. It stinks of the ruling elite and the bourgeoisie. I think we should rely on ourselves and the government should stay out of it.

    I’m also of the belief that if it isn’t firmly rooted in the Constitution then it needs to be done away with. If you cannot prove the constitutionality of whatever you’re trying to pass, sorry try again. This administration treats the Constitution as if it were an old outdated document requiring little respect or credence.

    That is what I feel is unbelievable.

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