The Challenge of Measuring The Right-Wing Fringe

Unfortunately, his actions appear to be feeding the ideas enumerated in the poll.

The challenge of measuring the stupidity of John Conyers—”good and welfare clause”?

“38 percent of Republicans (20 percent overall) say that Obama is “doing many of the things that Hitler did”

Oh, I must have missed his speech about the master white race and the inferior Jews, mulattoes and blacks.

That was right before he burned a cross on in back of the White House and told himself to leave this white country, right?

Wasn’t that on Fox last week?

“Scariest of all, 24 percent of Republicans (14 percent overall) say that Obama “may be the Antichrist.”"

Too scary to kid about.

I think it is safe to say that Republican propaganda has gone just a little bit too far.

Unless the New Republicans are going to be hate mongering Neo-Nazis telling lies, Republicans with any sense or responsibility should reign in the fanatics giving out this misinformation.

It’s obviously not “fringe.” It’s the core GOP. I bet we see McCain next week at a Tea Party rally in Arizona holding an “Obama-as-Hitler” poster. He’s desperately trying to ———-> get right.

Hey, spob, is Obama a Muslim?

On-line polls being taken seriously?
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Didn’t Lou Dobbs teach us anything?

You know, just because you can poll a question doesn’t mean you should. Some times the answers may be worthless.

Look, you don’t have agree with anybody in particular, but, if you know anything about Nazis, their American counterparts in addition to the neo-Nazis are the Aryan Brotherhood and KKK.
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Are you saying that Obama reminds you of the KKK?
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Are you saying that the anti-Christ decreased war and brought in health care?
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Are you saying that Muslims have a tradition of stimulus packages?
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Are you saying Michelle is wearing Muslim garb hiding herself as a Muslim wife would do (or, the very least cover her head)?
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Are you even slightly serious?

I not sure how they conducted this poll and got mainly fringe.

Michael Scherer:

In some circles, any support of expanding government services, spending or responsibility is considered “socialism.”

Is that an accurate impression, or are we incapable of knowing that? Can’t you, in your capacity as a journalist, inform your readers as to the truth or falsity of those “circles’” notions? Is the idea that Keynesian economic policy is identical to socialism correct or not?
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Or are nouns like “socialism” or “capitalism” or “fascism” or “communism” merely subjective characterizations, dependent on the impressions of the speaker?
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Remember, we’re not even talking about terms like “right,” “left,” and “center,” or even adjectives like “moderate” and “radical.”
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Are you claiming that there isn’t an objective meaning to the terms we employ –that you employ as well– in our political discourse, Michael Scherer?

67 percent of Republicans
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57 percent of Republicans
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45 percent of Republicans
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38 percent of Republicans
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With numbers like these how can you call them fringe?

Maybe Mike is speaking from first-hand experience when cites “come circles.”

“Or are nouns like “socialism” or “capitalism” or “fascism” or “communism” merely subjective characterizations, dependent on the impressions of the speaker?”
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Stu-That’s a good question, but I think the answer is going to be that some say and some say no.

Which things Hitler did?
Wear socks?
Walk upright?
Flush an occasional toilet?

or should it be… “The Challenge of Measuring The White-Wing Fringe”

Didn’t Elvis wear “white wing fringe?”

Gunny:
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I think the answer is going to be that some say and some say no
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Sadly, I think you’re right.
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I so look forward to the day when Scherer can begin a sentence in a serious, mainstream-published piece thus:
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“Adolf Hitler, who some describe as a Marxist, whilst others maintain was the Easter Bunny…”
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The future of journalism looks brighter every week.

Stuart,
We all know that the answer is absolutely not.
Republican commentators like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh seem to think that talking is just making cool sounds with your mouth like singing without the talent, rhythm or pitch.
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They throw together cool sounding words, viewers, listeners and, with them, sponsors come running towards them. Soon there is so much money they just keep on making these noises and have no idea what they are actually doing.

“Just like the white-winged dove…”?

Dubious poll asking dubious questions gets dubious results; merits dubious blog post.

(crickets)

That was supposed to be “some say yes and some say no.” Sorry what I get for checking in while I’m supposed to be slaving away at my socialist job.

Truly scary that only 16% of Republicans polled said that “The President should stop beating his wife.”

I can take solace in the age of this group, like me, they will begin to die off.

One has to wonder about the state of politics when idiotic stuff is polled on the net and the results are pushed out by MS and Co. No serious issues at hand?

Wherever Hitler is he must be sorely disappointed with the Aryans for linking him to Pres Obama. Where does the Republican Party and its fringe stand on racial purity? Poll that!

I don’t know about you, but if this is even half true about Hitler and the Anti-Christ – like 10% and 7% instead of twice that number – we will see a violent uprising of our own fascists convinced that they are patriots.

If you know about the real-life Nazis (who were not supporting health care – they were supporting death care) they always described themselves as “defending” things and never the vile aggressors that they were.

How ironic it would be if a dangerous group of violent people were to attack our government acting similar to fascists themselves in the name of democracy and anti-fascism.

I hope these numbers are completely false.

But it’s clear that there are a lot of folks who believe this tripe. Who’s feeding them? Answers are obvious, but (to paraphrase Colin Powell) if he were a Muslim so what? Lord knows what kind of definition fringers use for “socialist.”

That all depends. If he’s said in his lifetime “Allah is God and Muhammed is his Prophet”, then according to Islamic law he is. He has professed himself to be Christian–that’s good enough for me.

Of course, crickets. Spob would rather divert attention away from the lunacy of the right wing to an irrelevant gaffe made by John Conyers. Because one would never assume that when Conyers said, “good and welfare clause” that he really meant, “general welfare clause”, which is in the Constitution and which is one of the Constitutional powers granted to Congress by which Congress can justify the inclusion of the individual mandate in the healthcare bill. CNSNews asked the question and, of course, in the story about Conyers gaffe, didn’t even mention that maybe he meant the “general welfare clause”, nor did they mention that the “general welfare clause” does give Congress the power to do stuff like this. They simply stated that the word “good” only appears once in the Constitution and then cited a CBO report from 1994 saying that an individual mandate would be unprecendented.

Cheerfully, however, 31% believe the wife can whup HIM

The only legitimate (i.e., non-foaming-at-the-mouth) argument the GOP has is that Obama and the Democrats are using the Constitution for wiping something dirty. Which is absolutely true. I have never seen a more un-Constitutional monstrosity in my life, never mind its “good intentions”, except for the PATRIOT Act.
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Given their own history of abuse of that same document, they have no right to cry. Both parties have decimated the Constitution for their own gain — it’s not about your health, it’s about votes and power — but the chances of restoring a Constitutional Republic have been very dim for decades.
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The Democrats have had their black sheep too. Earth First and the Weathermen have been equally willing to shed blood, but their numbers — even if you included every hippie who ever sucked on a joint — never came close to the audience Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh have nodding to their hysteria.
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The sad thing, as I told one friend this morning, is that it is foolish and naive to think that “revolution” based on bullets has any chance of success. All one has to do is look at the complete oppression of dissent that occurs outside any G8 conference — including the one in Atlanta, Ga., U.S.A. — to realize that the power bloc will not tolerate rebellion and that the hope that those good American boys and girls in uniform won’t fire upon “fellow Americans” is completely, tragically, naively stupid.

I found the conclusion of the article from the Daily Beast much more interesting that the part MS excerpted.

The full results of the poll, which will be released in greater detail tomorrow, are even more frightening: including news that high percentages of Republicans—and Americans overall—believe that President Obama is “racist,” “anti-American” “wants the terrorists to win” and “wants to turn over the sovereignty of the United States to a one-world government.” The “Hatriot” belief that Obama is a “domestic enemy” as set forth in the Constitution is also widely held—a sign of trouble yet to come. It’s the same claim made by Marine Lance Corporal Kody Brittingham in his letter of intent to assassinate the President Obama.

This poll is the latest and most detailed evidence of the extent to which Wingnuts are hijacking our politics. It should be a wakeup call to all Americans and a collective reminder, as we move past health-care reform, that we need to stand up to extremism.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-03-22/scary-new-gop-poll

Actually, the answers are very interesting, and consistent with a variety of earlier polls using different methods. Started with Research 2000 doing a poll at the Great Orange Satan’s request asking what they thought was a stupid question (but why not ask it): “Should gov’t keep it’s hands off Medicare.” Because of the folks at the “town halls last august. Turns out it wasn’t a stupid question, with >50% of republicans either agreeing or not sure. It is helpful to know how delusional a major party has become. Frightening, but helpful.

ogliberal, you’re as dumb as Conyers. The General Welfare Clause doesn’t give Congess the power to force people to buy health insurance.

Yep. This.
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The GOP has zero sane policy proposals, and zero policy accomplishments in the past decade. It’s all cultural resentment-based talking points, from the lowliest sign-waving tea partier right on up to Boehner and McConnell.

Michael:

You’re way out of your element here. Leave the poll analysis to Nate, who knows what the he11 he’s talking about.

All I can say is, wow. This explains a great deal about the demographics of the republicans/tea partyers. It makes me wonder why I would even waste any of my time debating anything with them.

Oh no. The World Government stuff.
It’s the militia guys fearing black helicopters.
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I’ve got to stop flying around in it. It scares the Republicans.

I think articles like this discussing polls like this make the average American even more of a laughing stock world wide.

Obama is the anti-christ?? Who conducts such polls and how sane are they! If I were polled about something so asinine and idiotic I would decline to respond to such a question.

On the other hand, this poll shows the great divide and the undercurrent of hate and division being advocated and nutured by the Republican party.

Getting the WH (elected) should be based on clearly identified differences in ideology etc. and not an embarrassing witch hunt of a legitimately elected President.

I read that Obama has the greatest number of threats against him than any other President in the history of this country. I have not checked the veracity of that claim however with polls like this and the evident hate it is selling, it would not surprise me that so many are full of hate and anger towards our President.

This is the developed world??

LM

http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/2010/03/17/technology-savvy-nigerian-criminals-are-the-greatest-threat-to-national-security/

Wonder how many crackpots have ever heard of Jesse Owens? If they’re using a Texas textbook, prolly not

BO has never been quoted as saying that. Neocons apparently take lies and stretch them out like Silly Putty [again, dating myself ]

Note the “if” . . . .

“The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.”

This clause, along with the Commerce Clause, can provide Congress with a legal justification for including an individual mandate in the healthcare legislation.

This guy:

http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2764

has a JD from Harvard, a PhD from Cambridge, is a Constitutional law professor at Yale Law School, and he thinks that both the General Welfare Clause and the Commerce Clause could be used to provide legal grounding for the individual mandate.

Are John Conyers and I really that stupid, stupid? O, but wait, the founders didn’t explicity say anything about health insurance or an individual mandate so it must be un-Constitutional.

You call it the “fringe” – to me it looks like the republican base. It’s certainly not a party I want any affiliation with.

Well….both Hitler and Obama gave good speeches, built roads and changed what weapons their country manufactured. Does that count?

Hey Stuart, You are arguing, it seems, that words must mean something definite, and that the repurposing of words as a debate tactic is bad, and I should not be a part of it. I agree, for the most part.

But when you are dealing with a poll, such arguments are largely beside the point. It does not matter what I think the definition of socialism is or should be. What matters is what the respondent to the poll thought. And I was just pointing out the likelihood that not all people who called Obama a socialist had the same meaning for that word in mind.

Hmmm…
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spob just said “Allah is God and Muhammed is his Prophet” which, according to Islamic law as described by spob, makes spob a Muslim.
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However, if spob professes to not being a Muslim, that’s good enough for me.
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Oops! Now I’ve said it!?!

Without some analysis of whether the number of people who describe themselves as Republicans has declined, the numbers, and Scherer’s commentary are meaningless. Maybe even f**king meaningless.

Patrick~
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Whoooa! Slow it down. Ok, I get your point. I agree with the theme of what you say, that is, that the smears used to discredit Mr. Obama are irrational fantasies not based on even a shred of evidence.
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However, two points. First, I really don’t think there is anything even remotely comparable to the Nazi Third Rheich. Naturally, that would vindicate Obama. I do think, though, that we really shouldn’t use that term in reference to anyone or group other than the Nazis themselves. That’s what they were, the Nazi Party. There’s is a special breed of racial chauvinism and bigotry that is unparalleled and unrivaled even by the likes of the KKK.
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Now, more on topic, I must also disagree that Obama has lessened war. His order for 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan is nothing if not an escalation. Plus, let’s not forget that he immediately began drone attacks in Pakistan upon taking office, attacks that continue today. Yea, and we’re still in Iraq.

OG, don’t you think the Commerce Clause has been abused enough already? Anything can be considered to have an effect on interstate commerce. So does that mean that the federal government has the power to regulate anything?

dwilder@16~
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while I found your post worth reading, and agreed with most of it, I must comment on one thing:
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I believe you are in error regarding Earth First ! having been willing to shed blood. Destroy property, yes. And while arguments can be made about when that is more or less wrong to do, it is in an entirely different class than is shedding blood, and to sloppily mis-report it that way is irresponsible.
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But maybe I am the oine in error. Can you substatiate that characterization?

Hey Michael:
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First of all, thank you very much for engaging in commentary, especially commentary that is implicitly critical of your work. It’s greatly appreciated.
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You are arguing, it seems, that words must mean something definite…
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Yes, I am arguing that words have objective definitions, e.g. when I say that Bakunin was an anarchist, that is either a true or a false statement.
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I was just pointing out the likelihood that not all people who called Obama a socialist had the same meaning for that word in mind.
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I understand that, and to observe that this phenomenon exists isn’t misleading. The problem with reporting that numerous people might be more or less correct in their impressions of socialism is that, in order for the reader to be truly well-informed after consuming your piece, they must also know whether or not those people are correct in their impressions.
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What you’ve done is to report the controversy, but not report the most important item of the controversy –the item that imparts the most key information to readers– which is who is objectively correct in their assertions.
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Again, look at the “Bakunin was an anarchist” example. Consider a piece in which it was written

63% of respondents said that Bakunin is an “anarchist,” a term that has different connotations for different people.

versus a piece that had it

63% of respondents said that Bakunin is a “monarchist,” a term that has different connotations for different people.

One of those pieces would be highly misleading to readers, even though the description of the controversy would be accurate.
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In order to do decent work, wouldn’t the journalist need to write

63% of respondents said that Bakunin is a “monarchist,” a term that, while having different connotations for different people, political scientists agree is not an accurate description of his theories, which were, in fact, representative of anarchism.

, Michael Scherer?

“What matters is what the respondent to the poll thought.”
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No, Michael. What matters right now is that what these people think is provably, measurably crazy. That matters quite a lot in fact. I’m shocked that you missed what matters and avoided any substantive criticism of the crazies in the process.

@mycophile, I do not recall if murder was committed by Earth First. However, I very clearly remember it being said by several sources (including Time Magazine, IIRC) that it was only dumb luck that nobody died. They used fires and bombings freely.

I have read elsewhere that the Leonard Peltier “murders” were questionable as EFI says.

In their own words:

http://www.earthfirstjournal.org/section.php?id=16

A very solid majority in my MIL’s church does believe that Obama is the Anti-Christ. They don’t even try to hide it. They also believe he’s a Muslim, socialist, foreign born…whatever makes him sound un-American, they believe. They’re all old, white and not very bright. I don’t have any difficulty in believing the poll results. I see it all the time.

Okay,
He has not yet won over and, therefore, created peace in Afghanistan.
True.
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It is obnoxious and annoying to hear people who have no idea about history, economics, political science or current events even answer surveys this way.

Sacred,
I am not sure where you live, but, I think as a progressive, I am so much happier here in New York than I know I would be where you are.
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Don’t get me wrong, I am sure that there are some people you love there, but, that sounds so unpleasant to me.
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What state are you in, sacred?

spob, did you know that the islam’s holy book, The Quran, also describes Jesus as god’s prophet?
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So even if Obama is a muslim, how does that make him an anti-christ or Anti-American?
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Why is POTUS being a muslim such a bad thing?

If there was a poll asking if Dick Cheney was the Anti-Christ or Hitler, I would probably answer “yes” just as a joke. I don’t really think that. I’d like to assume many republicans answered as a joke, but I am not sure republicans have a sense of humor.

Of course he’s not. Everyone knows that Dick Cheney is satan’s evil twin.

What I truly love is being awake.. as a Democrat for 30 years I was shocked to find a party I was so loyal to had gone so far to the left they have no resemblance to the party they once were.. the PROGRESSIVES have ruined them and I will further guess that it will be a long time before they ever are given any power again.. I have to say I did not vote for Obama, he was a LAZY senator, arrogant and self centered.. unlike those who seemed smitten with his ability to speak and FAILED to listen to what he was saying I consider him to be more of a Fascist.. so the republicans calling him a socialist is being to kind.. BTW I know everyone THINKS the only ones that are conservative are REPUBLICANS and it’s totally wrong.86% of AMERICA is conservative or moderate ..

I consider him to be more of a Fascist
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How so?
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Could you define “fascism,” please?

“86% of AMERICA is conservative or moderate ..”
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How come 86% of America does not vote a conservative president into office?
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BTW, is George W Bush a conservative or moderate or a fascist? According to me, he is just an idiot. So there is hope for you, of one day becoming the POTUS.

Ohio, within a couple of miles of the river. I can be in West Virginia in 10 minutes and Pennsylvania in 20. It’s beautiful here, but there are some redneck motherf*ckers like you wouldn’t believe. They don’t even try to hide their rascism or bigotry. There are tons of churches and twice as many bars. I live next to the parsonage. They stole my “FU*K BUSH” sign in 2004 and I had to put up a “BUSH SUCKS” sign instead.