5 Reasons Republicans Should Let Go of Health Care

Reporters leaving Capitol Hill in the wee hours of Monday morning were, for the most part, heaving sighs of relief: health care reform had – finally! — passed, a vote for the history books. However imperfect, the deed was done, the fat lady had sung. A day later and Republicans seem not to have gotten the memo: they are attacking the bill as ferociously as they did before it passed. Repeal it, they’re saying; strike it down in the courts; and in the Senate, the reconciliation fixes may die a death of a thousand amendments.

Health care reform has been a rich vein for the GOP. Think back to the August town hall meetings and Sarah Palin’s death panels. Indeed, polls show the bill is incredibly unpopular – which is why Dems are more than happy to move on to jobs, the economy, and more jobs. But, keeping the bill in the forefront of news doesn’t come without risk to the GOP. Here are five reasons this could be a losing argument for Republicans:

1.    What happens when, as President Obama put it to the Democratic House Caucus on Saturday, “lo and behold nobody is pulling the plug on granny”?

The way many protestors (and some Republicans) were talking over the weekend you’d think passage of the bill represented an end of days: better stock up on canned goods because communism is a hair’s breadth away. “If we pass this bill, there will be no turning back,” Minority Leader John Boehner thundered on the House floor just before the vote. “It will be the last straw for the American people.”

When Obama signs the bill into law, as he’s expected to later this morning, the system will actually see very little immediate upheaval. The bulk of the bill won’t come into effect until 2014 and the changes right off the bat are politically targeted to, well, essentially make people feel good: children with preexisting conditions will not longer be denied health insurance, the so-called Medicare Part D donut hole will be fixed meaning lowers drug prices for seniors, a ban on lifetime insurance caps. If the sky does fall, it won’t until three elections cycles from now — pretty anti-climatic for those bracing for the worst.

2.   Repeal the bill?

Many Republicans this morning are calling for the bill to be repealed — a politically popular statement with the base, to be sure. But to repeal such a massive piece of legislation they would need a 60-vote majority in the Senate as well as control of the House. The odds of this happening before 2014 are slim. Not impossible, mind you, but I wouldn’t put money on it. And after 2014, are you really going to strip 32 million Americans of their health care insurance in order to start over? That seems politically tough.

3.   In opposing reconciliation the GOP would, in some cases, be opposing things that they, um, actually like.

Yes, there are plenty of things in the reconciliation amendments that Republicans hate: there’s an addition $50 billion in tax hikes, some new sweetheart deals such as the Bismarck Bank Job* and it’s more expensive than the Senate bill.

But, there’s also a lot the Republicans like in the amendments: they strip out of the Cornhusker Kickback and the Florida Flim Flam deals, tighten overpayments to private insurance companies, increase fees on drug companies and they have more stringent provisions on waste, fraud and abuse in Medicare and Medicaid. Plus, according to the Congressional Budget Office, they go farther than the Senate bill in reducing the deficit: $143 billion in the first 10 years and $1.3 trillion in the second decade.

*Apologies, the Bismarck deal was stripped by the House Rules Committee.

4.   The courts have a long history of federal law taking precedent over state laws: ahem, Medicare and Medicaid.

Google “Medicare Medicaid challenged in courts” and you get more than a million hits. Both programs have been sued so much by states on down that there are whole practices that specialize in such cases. And yet both programs are still functioning in all 50 states. Most constitutional lawyers expect legal challenges of this bill will end up much the same way as most previous 9th and 10th amendment cases have: that the federal law would stand.

5.    The ‘Party of No’ label.

As Adam Nagourney notes in today’s New York Times, this is the most immediate risk for Republicans ahead of the 2010 elections. Dragging out reconciliation for weeks or months has the potential to reinforce that stereotype. “Republicans appear to believe that obstructing any aspect of the President’s health reform agenda will pay electoral dividends,” says Thomas Mann, a congressional scholar at the left-leaning Brookings Institution. “They may well be deluding themselves. If they choose to follow a course of filibuster by amendment, I suspect the presiding officer will put them out of their misery after a few days.” Indeed, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid’s office has said they expect the amendments to pass by the time the chamber breaks for Easter recess on Friday (and, just in case, Reid can force an end to proceedings). But, on the heels of Senator Jim Bunning’s disastrous one-man filibuster, some Dems I spoke with wouldn’t mind seeing the Republicans filibuster by amendment for a good long while. And in the meantime, Reid’s office tells me they plan on putting lots of human faces on health care this week and what this means to so-and-so’s sick granny or child.
In some ways this debate is now more about spin than substance: racing to define the bill in the public’s mind before it fades from view. And, truth be told, no one will know for sure how the bill will play at the polls until voters actually go to the polls.

Subscribe to Jay Newton-Small on Facebook
Related Topics: 2012 Election, amendments, health care reform, senate reconciliation, Barack Obama, Congress, Democratic Party, Harry Reid, Health Care, Republican Party, Senate, White House
  • Latest on Swampland

    Obama to Submit His Budget to Congress on Monday

    President Barack Obama is pressing for investments in infrastructure while relying on familiar tax increases on the wealthy and corporations to claim progress on the federal deficit in his upcoming budget.

    Romney: I Was A 'Severely Conservative' GovernorHuffPost Politics

    Robert F. Bukaty / AP

    With Saturday Victories, Romney Retakes Control of the GOP Narrative

    Mitt Romney, the perpetually questioned front-runner for the Republican presidential nomination, had a rough week. Three embarrassing losses to Rick Santorum in Tuesday’s non-binding contests led to questions about Romney’s conservative bona fides just in time for GOP activists, gathering at their annual Conservative Political Action Conference in Washington, to collectively grumble about it. But in two narrow, largely symbolic victories on Saturday, Romney reclaimed the headlines. Never mind the details. He was winning again.

  • sterlingnorth

    They’d need a 67 Senate vote majority to repeal a bill, not 60 vote. You need 2/3rds of both chambers (290 in the House) to repeal a law.

  • apr2563

    Also they would need 67 votes to override a Obama veto.

  • sterlingnorth

    By that I mean 67 votes if they are hoping to overturn the bill while Obama is still President (since he’d likely veto any attempts to repeal the bill). Otherwise, they’d have to hope they’d win the presidential election in 2012 as well!

  • apr2563

    But, let them continue to make fools of themselves. They have bought into the pr campaign they, assisted by their hate radio folk, Fox News, and the traditional media that supported the meme, generated. There was no basis in actual fact, even polls were less than convincing.
    .
    Go for it Republicans, you are making yourself irrelevant. You will continue to only speak to approximately 20% of the country and shouting isn’t going to change that.
    .
    I am not happy about this. I like it when we have a loyal opposition. I rememer the days of Rockefeller, Ford, Goldwater, Javitts, Brooks, Percy and other liberal and moderate Republicans. That was before the Lee Atwater scourched earth group took over.
    .
    Unfortunately, over the last decades the Republicans have decided to align themselves with the Christianists, the xenophobic, and intolerant and driven out the reasonable. Take a look at California. The Republican party is totally usurped by the extremists.

  • apr2563

    What is more amusing is the traditional media:
    1. After the Presidential election, the Republicans will not be back for a generation.
    /
    2. During the HCR debate, the Democrats have lost support and there will be a tsunami election in 2010 and Dems could lose control of both houses. Obama is weak. Pelosi is divisive. As Chris Matthews said confronting Alan Grayson, there cannot be reconciliation on HCR. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697//vp/35020823#35020823
    It can’t pass without bipartisanship.
    /
    3. With the success of HCR, Republicans are losing support and may not have much success in 2010.
    /
    Do the villagers and bobbleheads have secret meetings and come up with agreed upon conventional wisdom each day to fill their echo chamber? Do they first consult Drudge, Halperin, and Politico for inspiration? Do they ever consider how often their predictions are wrong?

  • kbanginmotown

    Congressman Mike Rogers (R-MI-8) wasted no time in letting folks know why he voted against HCR. Here is the email he sent out:
    ===
    As you know, (important vote, families, many calls, listened, doctors, democracy…) … it will make our health care system worse, not better.

    After spending $1 trillion, cutting Medicare by $523 billion, raising taxes by $569 billion, requiring every American to buy health insurance or face jail time, and creating more than 100 new federal boards, commissions and bureaucracies, there will still be 23 million Americans who have no health insurance. I believe we can do better.

    Perhaps the most troubling part about the health care bill is, in a ploy intended to secure the votes they needed, …(Florida provision, North Dakota provision…)

    It is no wonder that physicians groups representing more than half a million doctors oppose this bill. Employers and manufacturers oppose this bill. The U.S. Council of Catholic Bishops oppose this bill. The Veterans of Foreign Wars oppose this bill. And small businesses oppose this bill.

    Yet, I certainly know that just saying “no” is not an acceptable or responsible approach to helping the 15 percent of Americans who have no health insurance or for the other 85 percent who are seeing huge increases in their monthly premiums. The status quo is indeed not working. That is why I have proposed serious solutions that would cover millions of Americans and lower premiums without the government getting in between you and your doctor. Those ideas can be found here.

    Saturday, I offered 15 amendments to the Democrats’ health care bill in an effort to make it better. Unfortunately, none of the following amendments were allowed a vote by Democrat leaders: (15 amendments)

    Finally, while Michigan struggles to create jobs, the only jobs this health care bill will create are at the IRS. It is estimated that 16,500 new IRS agents will have to be hired to collect the $569 billion in new taxes on everything from heart stents to so-called “Cadillac” health insurance plans that were earned by working families.

    (…fighting for you, closing)

    -Mike Rogers

  • kbanginmotown

    I’ve forwarded this email to Stabenow and Levin. Hopefully they and the rest of the Dems con try to not let the message get away from them like they did last summer…

  • sanpaco

    “The bulk of the bill won’t come into effect until 2014.”

    Right so let’s just forget all about it until then right? The people who were already for the bill are going to benefit from it. Those who are against it are still against it and seeing little Bobby hug his grandma isn’t going to change their minds, because sob stories don’t hold water when you understand the greater implications of what is in this bill. As if we haven’t already heard about the single mother of 12 with cancer who can’t get healthcare. That didn’t change our minds either. Get a clue.

    “Repeal the bill? The odds of this happening before 2014 are slim.”

    Oh you just wait and see… The gloves are off now and all but 34 democrats are going to lose their jobs in the House. Obama will lose his job in 2014. And the senate is going to take a hit as well.

    “But, there’s also a lot the Republicans like in the amendments.”

    I would hardly call what you list there “a lot”. If they liked any of that enough to care then they would have voted for the bill. We don’t like the bill!

    “The courts have a long history of federal law taking precedent over state laws: ahem, Medicare and Medicaid.”

    That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight when we know it is the right thing to do. There’s a reason people are still fighting Medicare and Medicaid even with such statistics as you mention, because they are devoted to their cause! “You’re just gonna fail anyway so why even try and do the right thing?” I believe the quote goes something like, “I would uphold the law if for no other reason but to protect myself. (Thomas More)”

    “The ‘Party of No’ label.”

    Sigh you lefties really don’t get it. This isn’t just a political ploy to try and make the Democrats look bad. You do that all by yourself. This is about opposing oppression and government control. This is about fundamental principles on which our country was founded. It is about protecting and fighting for the rights of individuals to have a choice. There is a problem with healthcare in this country, but forcing more government control down our throats is not the answer. I’m not going to stop saying “NO” to things I know are wrong just because people start calling me names. If I gave into peer pressure I would have been an alcoholic, smoker, and drug addict ever since middle school. To these and to any socialist, progressive legislation that should come hereafter I recommend the philosophy of Nancy Reagan, “Just say NO!”

  • sevenoaks07

    No problem. sanpaco. You are free to do whatever you want. I would like to see 30m Americans who are without insurance have a plan. Your arguments will appeal to people who feel like you. Let’s leave it at that.

  • 63cobra

    One big reason Obamacare will fail in the long run:
    The USA can not afford the price tag.

  • dbartenstein

    Yeah, it does seem daunting after the bills we still have to pay from the previous administration’s version of fiscal conservacy. Think Halliburton and Carlysle might feel benevolent and give some of that money back to the American people?

  • anon76

    Oh you just wait and see… The gloves are off now and all but 34 democrats are going to lose their jobs in the House. Obama will lose his job in 2014. And the senate is going to take a hit as well.

    Presumably you are confident enough in these predictions to make a wager. I’ll put up my house and firstborn. What do you have?

  • wknichols

    Forget the five reasons why anyone should keep quiet about this! There is only one reason why this is a disaster, and we all, both democrats and republicans, should be SCREAMING to repeal it. WE SIMPLY DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY TO PROVIDE ENTITLEMENTS TO EVERYONE! We are fast on the road to bankrupting our nation, and not enough Americans are speaking up to stop it. Stop living in a fantasy world and stop the insanity! Fire every politician who is blind to this in every election going forward from the President down to the lowest local levels. It doesn’t matter whether they are Democrats, Republicans, or aliens from outer space. Stop the government from spending money we simply DO NOT have!

  • anon76

    @63cobra-
    Since the CBO says that the bill actually saves money, I seem to be in a bit of a quandary about who to believe. What makes you a better reference than the CBO? What links can you show me that support your claim?
    .
    And, just out of curiosity, do you think that the USA can afford the hyper-inflationary increases in the cost of health care that is the status quo? Do you think that the health care price tag for US businesses makes American goods and services more or less competitive on the international market?

  • charlieromeobravo

    Heh. As long as the Dems keep heading in the right direction I’d love it if the Republicans keep talking about repealing the bill. They may have to to appease the base but that talk will just drive main stream Americans further and further from them because, as was point out in Jay’s post, threatening to strip 32M Americans of their insurance isn’t going to win them any new friends. Vote for me so I can take away your health insurance isn’t a winning slogan under any circumstances.

  • anon76

    @wknichols-
    Welcome to the party- where were you the last 8 years? And you do know that the Health Care legislation is not an entitlement, and that it is scored as reducing the deficit, right?

  • newfreedomblog

    Well Ms Newton-Small has given you all the 5 reasons why Republicans should keep trying to “Kill the Bill”.
    .
    Allow me the pleasure of explaining to you the ONE reason, and one reason only they should continue the fight against this bill.
    .
    FREEDOM
    .
    My good friend above sanpaco hit upon it in his comment. The freedom to choose. Yes Ladies and Gentlemen for the FIRST time in our history as a nation our Federal Government has passed a law which REQUIRES you to do something. For the first time in American history our Government officials have passed a bill, which President Obama will gladly sign which takes away your rights. It is the cornerstone in their plan to make your subservient to their social justice policies.
    .
    Every American should be upset and angry. I watched the Black Caucas members proudly walk through the crowd of protesters on Saturday. Yes they had their heads held up high as they should, but it was for the WRONG reason. They too have been duped by Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, and Harry Reid. Their ancestors were slaves. They did not have any freedom. Their daily lives were controlled by the slave master 24 hours a day. But, they have forgotten that history. They voted to give away their precious freedom. Why? They are now far removed from those ancestors who lived on the plantations of the south. They have grown up in an America where freedom is taken for granted.
    .
    If you think Ms Newton-Small that giving up your freedom is worth a $3,000 dollar health insurance policy. A policy which will be held by a big Insurance company for profit, then you are as stupid as they come.
    .
    The door has been opened Ms Newton-Small. Our Government by precedent can now pass any law, any legislation, any bill they deem to be in our “best” interest. They can tell you what you WILL buy, what you WILL eat or drink. They can pass any law they choose to tell you what you can and cannot do. This is what this healthcare reform has been all about for them Ms Newton-Small.
    .
    What is next Ms Newton-Small? What part of my sacred rights do you want to take away from me next? My Freedom of speech? My Right to bare Arms? My Right to Trial by Jury? My Right to practice my religion without persecution?
    .
    Which one Ms Newton-Small are You, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and Barack Hussein Obama coming for next?
    .
    http://www.newfreedomblog.com

  • anon76

    Doesn’t the federal government already require that I pay taxes? Don’t they also require that I serve as a juror in federal courts? And didn’t I need to register with selective service when I turned 18?
    .
    Seems like this ‘first time’ has been going on for a while.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I just got this video from a Republican planning committee (you all know how well politically connected I am).

  • anon76

    Our Government by precedent can now pass any law, any legislation, any bill they deem to be in our “best” interest. They can tell you what you WILL buy, what you WILL eat or drink.

    Stop it- you’re killing me. This is satire, right? Colbert couldn’t even make this stuff up.

  • ilikechips

    JNS the ultra liberal wants GOP to just shut up and let the libs run everything. Why shouldn’t they do everything to stop this disastrous bill that the majoity of americans do not want? How about doing some actual reporting on the massive costs..deals..Dr.s who will quit medicine..oh that’s right. you don’t know what balance is in reporting. It’s just about gloating for your Obamessiah..”Now let’s get on to global warming” I am sure will be your next post. Pathetic

  • bugsy3333

    When you start letting copy boys write articles?

  • Paul-no not that one

    There are few things as inspiring as The Physician commenting on African Americans.

  • newfreedomblog

    anon76: You are blind. Not only blind but I have read enough of your garbage to know that you follow like a sheeple. You would drive yourself off a cliff in your BMW if that was what Barack Obama told you to do.
    .
    When they carry your sorry a$$ off to the mass gas chambers anon76 for not doing what they want you to do, or for not doing what they “DEEM” is in your best interest. You can think of this discussion.
    .
    Next

  • wknichols

    The health legislation IS, without a doubt, an entitlement. As far as reducing the deficit, stop kidding yourself. It ain’t gonna happen. the CBO is basically a calculator. It will only give calculations based on whatever information you punch in. Anyone can manipulate numbers and claim that they are going to do things that are impossible. the CBO doesn’t question the lies that are punched into the calculator. As for the past eight years…The republicans allowed for the same stupid spending that continues today. The argument that “they did it, so why can’t we” is just as insane as the legislation itself. Somebody has to step up and truly be a leader and make hard decisions. Americans must stop pretending that everything will be ok, and start looking at the checkbook! We are writing checks that can’t be cashed. When our ability to borrow money dries up, we are finished.

  • anon76

    What part of my sacred rights do you want to take away from me next? My Freedom of speech? My Right to bare Arms? My Right to Trial by Jury? My Right to practice my religion without persecution?

    LOL! You left off habeas corpus, unreasonable search and seizure, and generally Amendments IV-VI. I wonder why? Oh yeah, b/c your side did those in. Shirley you can direct us to your outraged blog posts from when those rights were curtailed by the feds, right?

  • wknichols

    RIGHT ON, brother! I couldn’t agree with you more.

  • newfreedomblog

    wknichols:
    .
    Ask anon76, the most brilliant of all liberal commenters here in the swamp exactly how many entitlement programs he can name which have “saved any money”?
    .
    Ask anon76, the most brilliant of all liberal commenters here in the swamp how this bill will control the out of control healthcare COSTS will be lower?
    .
    Ask anon76, the most brillian of all liberal commenters here in the swamp how the CBO has calculated using numbers based on double counting dollars, raiding the Medicare Trust Fund, and the huge tax increase is going to pay for all of this?
    .
    But you see wknichols, he or she won’t be able to tell you because it DOES NOT EXIST. It is all Democrat / Barack Obama talking points. Lie after lie after lie they have told to sell this crazy bill to the 38% of the people who are in favor of it.

  • anon76

    @wknichols- looking closely at my post, I never said ‘Republicans did it, so its OK for dems to do it’. I said that the CBO has scored this as deficit reducing, therefore the Democrats have at least made an attempt to not spend money we don’t have. That was not the case during the last 8 years, when Republicans were largely in charge, and pay-go (a Democratic idea) was thrown to the curb. The good news is that the folks in charge are at least behaving somewhat responsibly, so you can be a little less upset about Gov’t spending than you were from 2001-2009.

  • wknichols

    I recommend that we go further than Nancy Reagan and just say HELL NO!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Watch out everybody!
    With this sinister plan between now and 2014 when you get your paycheck, inside there will be a form you will have to sign!!!

    You’ll have to sign your name!!!

    After that, a card for an insurance company will arrive in the mail!

    The chills are running down my spine, an employer, who already knows everything they could want to know about me from my social security number to any back ground check they want, will have had me sign for my tax forms, know how many dependents I have, know where I live, have seen my documents for my I-9 form will – will… oh, no, I hate to say it – make me sign a document connecting me to an insurance company!!!.

    Dear god! Signing for an insurance card! What’s next? I may have to register my car! I may have to put insurance on it!

    There is one last ray of hope. I will still be free to catch contagious illnesses and contaminate my community. Let’s face it, catching contagious illnesses and contaminating friends, families, clients and coworkers is what this country is really all about, isn’t it? Nobody can force us to actually go to the doctors, so, we will protest these totalitarians by coughing, sneezing and even not showering until everybody knows the power of freedom and nobody will ever forget what the Republican party really stands for: being sick.

    Can anybody reasonable – no, Newfreedombra, you are not qualified as reasonable – explain to me how this is not a good thing.

    I can, absolutely, grasp how this bill could have been better as people like Stuart explained in vivid detail (a huge amount, if not all that I agree with) how it could have been better. I just have no idea how this could be a bad thing unless you have have a conspiracy theory that the Congressional Budget office has been taken over by Communists, Nazis (who had their own, special health care known as death camps – a little different from Blue Cross Blue Shield) or Satan worshipers.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Unfortunately, campaigning on repeal while being physically unable to accomplish it represents the best of both worlds. Just as passing the bill forces us to confront it’s actual contents rather than the scare stories, promising repeal can please a segment of the polulace without anyone ever being in danger of actually having to go through with it.

  • newfreedomblog

    Well patrick, if you cannot see that the Democrats have gone too far with this bill, then nothing I say will convince you otherwise. And as in the past, you are so blind to the truth, that no one here or anywhere will be able to explain it otherwise.
    .
    Keep believing in Obama, the 70% of us who know what they are up to will save you from them. Sit back, make jokes about it. We know that is all you have.
    .
    We know people like you want to be dependent. You want the Government to provide you with all of the things you think you deserve. Of course you will not work for them. You want some “Fat Cat on Wall Street” to pay for it for you. We understand where you are coming from Patrick. Go ahead, sit back in your twinkie crusted recliner and sleep away.

  • anon76

    @rustyblog- Thank you for all the compliments, but I’ll demure the title of ‘most brilliant’ to Mr. Zechman. He’s quite clever, though a little over-prone to taking your rants seriously.

    Ask anon76, the most brillian of all liberal commenters here in the swamp how the CBO has calculated using numbers based on double counting dollars, raiding the Medicare Trust Fund, and the huge tax increase is going to pay for all of this?

    Well rusty, double counting dollars & raiding medicare trust fund are your assertions, so I’ll let you defend those. As for how a tax increase pays for federal programs, I’m just not sure how to explain it to you. You’re familiar with the general concept that you give some of your money to the federal government (taxes), and they spend it on federal programs, right?

  • anon76

    What if your opponent points out that you physically can’t repeal the law, and that you are therefore lying about about the most basic tenets of your platform?

  • wknichols

    Anon76 -
    I didn’t mean to put words into your mouth. I was simply responding to the “where have yo been for eight years?” question. I assumed that you were asking why I didn’t complain before…At some point, we have to get fed up. Aren’t you? I couldn’t care less about Democrats or Republicans, but, right now, it’s the Democrats who are driving the car off the cliff. When will ALL Americans stand up and scream”Put on the brakes”. All of the hope and change promises from 2008 were misleading at best. This president has broken far more promises than he’s kept, and that is NOT George Bush’s fault. The last eight years have nothing to do with the decisions that we make going forward.

  • newfreedomblog

    Well when you can add it up and it amounts to 2.5 TRILLION in cost to provide “healthcare for all”, anon76 the most brilliant, no one, not even the CBO can explain it. They can’t explain it because it cannot be done as they have said it would.
    .
    Of course putting a MANDATE in this bill will go a ways on their attempt to “balance” it all out. You know the MANDATE which forces you to buy an insurance policy that you may or may not want or need. But, even that cannot be shown to be 100% effective in balancing this bill.
    .
    They only thing which will “balance” this bill will be more taxes, rationing, and the Government now deciding what treatment or drugs you will be given in order to control costs. You no longer decide anon76, Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, and Harry Reid will decide for you.

  • http://www.altruance.com altruance

    On some level the GOP played their panic card and once people realize that these bills were simply minor tweaks to the insurance industry and not true reform there will be some credibility issues. What is ironic is how tame the bills that were passed are in comparison to Nixon’s attempt at healthcare reform.

    For the good of the country I hope that the GOP realizes that they should lead a new dialogue about trying to implement real health care cost control. Reducing health care premiums in essence amounts to a tax cut and the only way to bring premiums down is to reduce costs.

    http://www.altruance.com/2010/01/health-care-costs-more-for-less/

  • homerhk

    From my point of view there are at least 32 million reasons why the GOP should let healthcare reform go. F**k the political arguments. 32 million people will gain access to health insurance who previously were not able to. Now, we tend to throw that figure around in the same way that we through huge sums of money around. But this is different. Each and every one of those 32 million people has their own desires, wishes, dreams and families. Each one has a mother, father, brothers, sisters and friends. Each one of them is a citizen of the United States and together they form 10% of of the country.

    Each one of them will now be confident that they can have access to healthcare when they need it the most. On a human level, each one of them is a profound reason to stay away from any kind of repeal talk.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Chips,
    Should I call you Ponch or John (early 1980s reference).
    I think I should copy and paste every time I see a new conservative in the swamp.

    We have had national health care for many decades now, but a highly, highly inefficient one.
    1) The sickest of the sick are and have been on Medicare or Medicaid since their formation in 1966. These are people who got ill either when they did not have health insurance or when they were too young to have health insurance. They are too ill to work and the most expensive. Since they are already a part of our system the total added cost for them is exactly $0.
    ….
    2) The other uninsured are not dying on our streets. They are going into hospitals. Most emergency rooms in urban areas or places where there are many poor have a separate section for non-emergencies. They wait in large rooms for approximately six hours. They fill out forms stating their income and must, if they want a discount, show a pay stub to get this discount or, sometimes, free care.

    3) Doctors, nurses, orderlies, administrators do not do work on these people free as the electric company and all other related costs are not free. These costs through the hospital get passed onto the consumer in terms of those infamous $25 aspirins and so on to the insurance policies of those who have insurance.

    4) Due to the humiliating and long wait and many forms, the uninsured often neglect illnesses when they are mild. They often hold off until they are ill enough to miss work for that day or even more than one day costing employers money, forgoing income they would have earned and, most directly, requiring more expensive care. I, myself, about ten years ago neglected an ear ache until I had suffered from temporary hearing loss in that ear in addition to great pain. Because of waiting until I had hearing loss, I needed a higher dosage of antibiotics than I, otherwise would have needed and I was required to have a follow up visit to make sure that my hearing in that ear had returned and that the infection had healed. (It had). This more than doubled the cost of what I would have spent for an affordable copay at a local clinic or if I had a GP. I paid a reduced fee. Who paid the difference? You did. Thank you.Through your inflated insurance premiums paying inflated bills at hospitals you very generously paid for my extra expensive care. Under this plan, with a clinic with a small copay, I would have gotten care sooner and for cheaper needing less antibiotics and only one rather than two visits.

    5)The vast majority of the uninsured are, like me, childless and under the age of 40. Since I would be using health insurance for one checkup a year and once every three to four years for an illness, it is cheaper for me to be uninsured. It is dramatically cheaper. Should an employer be required to give me insurance, my policy between now and when I have children or begin to have the typical illnesses of a forty something will be money makers and put in more money than it will cost for my very low usage of medical services. This cost will go down for you when I have an employer buy insurance for me. Hence your costs go down again.

    6) Contagious illnesses are not bacteria nor viruses which pick and choose to only go from uninsured people to other uninsured people. They go from uninsured to insured as well. So, if you ever leave your home and cross the path of the uninsured at restaurants (basically none of them provide coverage and few employees can afford to pay for it themselves), grocery stores, convenience stores or any other place, you will, under this plan, have less exposure to infected people to make you ill. Hence, you and your insured family will be ill less often and need less medical care than you do right now.

    7) All uninsured when insured will be more productive increasing overall GDP.

    Take all of this into account and then tell us how this would increase government expenses keeping in mind that these policies will all be paid by employers and not for by the government.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Chips,
    Keep in mind that Obama had even in public at the meeting asked for Republican input and the Republicans refused to do anything but bring up an unrelated, huge, topic called tort reform.

    Tort reform in several states had failed to reduce insurance to doctors. With the insurance on doctors not getting lower, the cost of care did not go down. It has every sign of being a side issue.

    Republicans were asked again and again to speak up on how to improve the bill. The response again and again was “Kill bill”. (Wasn’t that the 1996 Republican presidential campaign slogan, too?)

    Imagine you are working on a project at work and you bring in coworkers and all they can say over and over is “this project sucks sh”. If you work with your cooperative coworkers, get the job done while these imbeciles keep on saying “this project sucks” are you closing them out or are they forcing themselves out?
    ….
    The Republicans refused to participate and now want to cry about not having their input after a full six months.

  • stuartzechman

    anon76:
    .
    Thanks so much for the compliment, that’s very kind of you.

  • pierogielunaire

    JNS,

    Eric Kleefeld has a very good post at TPM regarding the popularity of the HCR from the new CNN poll and I think calling it incredibly unpopular may give the impression that everyone dislikes it for the same reasons (I know you’re talking about the CBS poll).

    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/poll-americas-opinion-of-health-care-reform-is.php?ref=fpa

    While the top line of CNN’s poll indeed shows only 39 in favor and 59 opposed, 13% oppose the current bill because it isn’t liberal enough. Those disappointed liberals are not exactly gimmes for the GOP’s repeal strategy come 2010, 2012.

  • maddawgg

    Damn right! I will fight to the death any legislation that requires me to wear long sleeve shirts! To the ramparts!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    You know, Paul, now that I think of it, that would be identical to Republican strategy for Roe vs Wade. If for some reason it gets overturned, three quarters of the religious Republicans will either become Democrats or just not vote at all.

    Republicans may try that.

    However, if you think Roe vs Wade is a popular decision with only 820,151 abortions approximately in 2005, imagine how popular three hundred million Americans either keeping the same health insurance or getting better health insurance will be.

    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Number_of_abortions_in_United_States)

    It might work between now and 2014 and then be an even bigger catastrophe for the Republicans.

  • xxception

    anon, the CBO score you are referring to assumes future Congresses will find and pass legislation making $500 million in cuts to Medicaid over the next ten years. Without that assumption, the bill will add to the deficit. That is a HUGE assumption to make.

  • xxception

    dang, should read $500 billion. Fingers aren’t awake yet this morning.

  • alexvallas

    The Republican Party continues to do everything possible to divide the country. It started with Bush and his lies re WMD and the unjustified attack of Iraq, and contiues today with McConnell, Boehner, Cantor and other members of the GOP using lies, distortions, misrepresentations, etc.. in an attempt to repeal the Healthcare Bill. They effectively scared the heck out of a public that was swayed by everything from inacting dealth panels to converting the country to Communism or Socialism. They were supported by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Ann Couler, Pat Robertson, and numeous others who would benefit tremendously by this act. They could possibly be given a brain transplant.

  • alexvallas

    You are right on target.

  • sacredh

    People with children in college will be able to keep them on their insurance until they are 26. I wonder how many want to see this bill repealed? 32 million people without insurnace now are going to get coverage. How many of them are going to want a repeal? What about the people with pre-existing conditions?

    I don’t doubt for a minute that the democrats are going to suffer losses in November. The Teabaggers are going to out in force this summer and fall. The media will be all over them. I have faith that they’ll put on a show. They may very well turn off as many voters as they turn on.

  • stuartzechman

    superterrificdelegate:
    .
    So 39% of the public is fine with how “liberal” HCR, is, and another 13% want it to be liberal?
    .
    Doesn’t that mean that 52% of the public wants policy that’s at least as “liberal” as HCR, with 46% being against?

  • pierogielunaire

    Also, the CBS poll about “Why do you think X is doing Y” just doesn’t seem as helpful as straight forward “What do you think about X? Why do you think that?” Looks to me like the CBS poll is overly geared toward driving narrative.

  • xxception

    I’ve seen several comments about this bill be deficit neutral or even reducing it. This is utter wishful thinking. The CBO score that is being referenced was arrived at by assuming future congresses will enact the $500 billion worth of cuts to Medicaid this bill assumes they will. That is a huge assumption to make and quite wishful thinking. You rave about how 32 million people aren’t going to want their insurance cut or taken away (which only holds water if the government is PROVIDING the insurance, but that’s another argument) while touting a score that assumes future congresses are going to make cuts, i.e. take away, portions of Medicaid. Do you honestly think those cuts will ever be made? If those cuts aren’t made, then the cost of this bill and it’s deficit impact is far greater and negative than the current CBO score. The CBO only scores bills based on the rules given to them. IT would have been interesting to see what the score would have been if those cuts aren’t made. You won’t see that number from the “open and transparent” administration, however. It is not a number they want Americans to know about because the support for the bill would quickly diminish due to the high cost. So, they go on their way, not outright lying, but deceiving the public about the cost.

  • pierogielunaire

    Exactly, Stuart. Basically the percentage of the population that voted for Obama in 2008. And you also have to keep in mind that there are another 3% who oppose it for indeterminate reason, not necessarily because it’s too liberal.

  • maddawgg

    Human beans are a f**ked up lot! The part of this maniacal, frothing opposition to HCR that I can’t wrap my brain around is that there are people out there who would gladly let another person die rather than agree to provide them with the health care needed to have them survive. Granted some of the people who stand to benefit from the soon to be law of the land are unproductive elements of our society but that condition is treatable, not punishable by death.

  • stuartzechman

    Well…let’s not go overboard.
    .
    You mean to say
    .
    Each one of them will now be confident that they can have access to healthcare when they need it the most…“…after 2014, if they live in a state that has put together a working exchange, they qualify for enough federal help to satisfy premium requirements, and the insurers don’t delay or deny claims.
    .
    I think it would be a really, really good idea, now that the thing has actually passed, for supporters to paddle back to the rhetorical pier on these dubious selling points. If people bother to ask “Really? Then can I quit my job and start my business, now?,” you’re going to be left with more explaining than you want to do.
    .
    The right has put you in a great position. Basically all you have to do is not repeat the October revolution of 1917, and they’re proven to be liars, scoundrels or fools.
    .
    You squander that position of credibility away if you continue to oversell this thing. The fact is that people can still lose their insurance and access to their doctors, specialists, facilities and drugs upon being laid off (and not making COBRA payments). People can still be turned away for pre-existing conditions by insurers, too. Folks have got four long years to wait until those things come to be the way that they are supposed to according to centrist Democrats’ theories of how this should work.
    .
    I would stick to supporting this thing by telling people “Look, the sky isn’t falling, right?“, if I were you.

  • kevin

    The gloves are off now and all but 34 democrats are going to lose their jobs in the House. Obama will lose his job in 2014.
    .
    What’s more ludicrous here?
    .
    a) The idea that Democrats from 75%-90% Democratic districts are going to get thrown out of office by voters for fulfilling the major campaign promise that got them elected in 2008?
    .
    b) The idea that the next presidential election will be moved from 2012 to 2014?
    .
    c) The possibility that the moron who wrote this is allowed to vote?

  • tomdegan

    The new health care bill is not perfect – far from it – but as the old Chinese saying goes, “The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.” There will be improvements made on it down the years – there absolutely needs to be – but this is a fairly good first step. We’re on our way! The Conservatives will whine, but that’s what they do best. They’ll whine just as they whined when Lyndon signed into law the Voting Rights Act of 1965, or the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Just as they whined when Harry Truman desegregated the army in 1947, or when Franklin D. Roosevelt brought Social Security into being in 1935. They’ll whine just like they did when Woodrow Wilson tried to form the League of Nations in 1919 – or when Abraham Lincoln ended the institution of slavery in 1863! They whine a lot. Did you ever notice that?

    There’s gonna be a whole lotta obstruction goin’ on between now and Election Day, you can be certain of that. The success of health care reform in America can only spell trouble for the GOP. They will do everything humanly possible to see to it that it fails completely. Count on them trying to get it declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of John Roberts. This is going to get really interesting.

    http://www.tomdegan.blogspot.com

    Tom Degan

  • patrahan

    The Regressives just don’t get it. Senator Vitter from our state of Louisiana called into a local new program this morning. He stated that the Regressives do have a health care plan. He claims they have had a health care plan for years??? Okay, I’ll bite – what is it? He complained about the rules used to pass the bill. Where have you been all of these years Mr. Vitter? The rules used to pass this legislater didn’t just come up last week. You knew they were there. Why haven’t you done something about? I guess its like your health care plan – you have one – somewhere, in a closet, or — maybe in a house of ill repute.

  • sacredh

    You’re not taking into account the non-gay fetus. I just destroyed your argument. I win.

  • alexvallas

    Agree.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Check out where our spending really goes:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fy2010_spending_by_category.jpg

    The Department of Defense is where we can, soon, cut.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm

    More than $6 out of every $11 spent worldwide on defense is American spending.

    Once we get out of Iraq and – cheaper than bombing more – after Afghanistan is stabilized – cut our DOD spending and have tens of billions a year for everything.

    Our budget problems are the result of tax cuts by GWB and the war in Iraq.

    As for the debt, in terms of GDP (the lower graph) it isn’t too bad. Our highest debt per GDP was in the booming late 1940s through the late 1950s.

    The presentation of the deficit issue is a hallow Republican talking point.

    It was a non-issue when we had the Bush tax cut to Republicans. It was a non-issue when we attacked Iraq during the Bush Administration. Now Republicans are soiling their underwear over it.

    It is not that this should be ignored, but, once we get out of the necessary war in Afghanistan and rebuild it well enough so that radicals will not reform there and our unnecessary war in Iraq, we can cut DOD and have a Clinton style constantly decreasing deficit again.

  • xxception

    patrick, it is the two age old questions, at what cost? and is it the government’s job? I’ll try to explain.

    You act as if people that are against this bill are AGAINST people having health insurance. That is utterly ridiculous. Most people that are against it are against it due to one of the questions above. Every task the government takes on is limited by how much it costs. No government aid program is open ended with open enrollment and no documentation needed. Partially because these programs have, at least in theory, a maximum cost they can reach. A point at which the cost becomes too great, you might say. Some people feel the same thing about this healthcare bill. Its intent is good, but the cost is too enormous and will be too much of a drain on our children’s generation.
    That, just deals with the at what cost question. Then you have is it the government’s job. I understand what has been argued about the benefits to society as a whole being healthier and having better access to healthcare, but is it government’s job? If so, how far do we go? It would also be better for society and our healthcare system if we are healthier as a nation. Does that mean we want the government policing what we eat and how much we exerise to ensure that? This is simply not a function of our federal government. By wasting our limited resources on something that isn’t a core responsibility of our government, we are taking that resource away from something that IS a core responsibility of our government. I don’t care what Obama says, you can’t invest in something and pay for something with the same money.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor
  • nflfoghorn

    But if he’s re-elected in ’12, how’s he gonna lose his job in ’14–will he have Watergate II? Good luck with that idea.

  • xxception

    factually incorret patrick. The Republicans have offered numerous amendment to the healthcare bill throughout the process. ALL of them were shot down with very little debate. Including the other side requres more than just inviting them to sit in the room while your side decides how best to “save” the American people.

  • kevin

    Why shouldn’t they do everything to stop this disastrous bill that the majoity of americans do not want?
    .
    The latest CNN poll:.
    .
    Think the bill is too liberal: 43%
    Think the bill is just right: 39%
    Think the bill isn’t liberal enough: 18%
    .
    True, the “majority” isn’t happy with the bill exactly as it stands.
    .
    But the people who want it repealed are a minority. A majority either likes it as it is, or wants it made even more liberal.
    .
    And as more and more people realize that the right wing lies about death panels and Medicare rationing are utter b.s., that majority who likes it is only going to get bigger.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    The problem was with Vitter’s remarks were that the whore house he was calling from the prostitutes all wanted to have health care and wouldn’t stop screaming.

    It was an awful phone call.
    ….
    Oh, wait. I forgot. Republicans having sex with prostitutes is just fine. When Bill and Hillary Clinton lost their shirts on a failed real estate deal in Whitewater…. How dare they loose their own money on a bad investment!

  • newfreedomblog

    Rather than spend your time reading the thoughts of Mao, Sal Alinsky, and Barack Obama anon76 and patricksartor should read F. A. Hayek.
    .

    “Even more significant of the inherent weakness of the collectivist theories is the extraordinary paradox that from the assertion that society is in some sense more than merely the aggregate of all individuals their adherents regularly pass by a sort of intellectual somersault to the thesis that in order that the coherence of this larger entity be safeguarded it must be subjected to conscious control, that is, to the control of what in the last resort must be an individual mind. It thus comes about that in practice it is regularly the theoretical collectivist who extols individual reason and demands that all forces of society be made subject to the direction of a single mastermind, while it is the individualist who recognizes the limitations of the powers of individual reason and consequently advocates freedom as a means for the fullest development of the powers of the interindividual process.

    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_von_Hayek

  • xxception

    Ummmm, you are aware Lincoln was a conservative Republican, aren’t you? Who was mainly opposed by a mix of Southern Dems and Repubs?

  • http://afrank8.wordpress.com afrank8

    Where were the Republicans during this entire debate?

    I’ll tell you;

    Instead of discussion they stone walled.

    Instead of discussion they spread lies about the facts regarding the legislation.

    Instead of discussion they say the bill is no good, even holding up their own version of their health care legislation in a meeting with the President MONTHS before they even HAD a competing bill.

    If the President had asked to see what bill they were holding in their hands he would have seen blank pages.

    Now the stalling is over.

    The party of no could have had their say, but NO..

  • squiduk

    @newfreedomblog…

    I want to shed tears for you when I read some of the things that you say, it would seem that you live on a different planet from the millions that will end up benefiting from the bill.

    Please read @patricksartor he said most of what I wanted to in terms of costs and facts, leaving me free to have a bit of a rant in the hope you will wake up to reality.

    Firstly I should tell you that I am from the UK but lived in the states for years and grew to love the country.

    I love the freedoms you hold so dear, the get up and go attitude and the desire to improve oneself that seems to come from deep in the collective soul of America and permeates all though the American conciousness.

    What I don’t like is when people put your country down, sell it short and make it seem like the greedy fat man who lives next door refusing his neighbour a a loaf of bread as he lay starving.

    Lets get this straight – this bill is about people, it’s about some of the most vulnerable in your society (unbelievably this is middle America and not just the ultra poor) this bill will help waitresses and store clerks who work 2 jobs and can barely pay the rent let alone afford the cost of insurance as it currently stands.

    At one point in your diatribe you say ‘We know people like you want to be dependent. You want the Government to provide you with all of the things you think you deserve. Of course you will not work for them. You want some “Fat Cat on Wall Street” to pay for it for you. We understand where you are coming from Patrick. Go ahead, sit back in your twinkie crusted recliner and sleep away.’

    I have many friends in America who if they don’t now, they have worked 2 jobs. I worked 2 jobs at one stage to get by. I can tell you from personal experience, working 2 jobs, paying taxes and bills I was unable to afford even the most basic healthcare – are you going to call me lazy?

    The problem with health insurance being handed to the market; the market is greedy – it try’s to maximise profits and minimise overheads.

    If one translates that view to the medical profession they would not want unhealthy people on there books as this would increase overheads.

    That is the simple reason it can only work in governments hands, the government is not out to make a profit.

    The biggest joke in the Replican’s arsenal is increased costs! This is the big stick they bring out every time they want to scare you!- Even forgetting the irony of how they managed your budget, if you use common sense rather than the sense of fear you can see how STUPID this argument will be.

    e.g. Man/woman lives + 10 years – (FYI Japan (highest life expectancy in the world) 82 years / US 76 years old before you die.

    You as a country are losing a fortune to early deaths on treatable illnesses, the saving due to taxes being collected from these people more than covers the cost of the bill.

    And just to be clear – these people who are most at risk as I said are the lower paid – this would include those working 2 jobs.

    To be against this bill is to actually say – America doesn’t care how much you work, it just cares about how much you earn!

    It is just such a shame you hate your fellow Americans’ enough that you don’t care about how hard they work. You just care about large there bank balance is.

    Americans having the right to health care along with guns (which you don’t actually but now is not the time for a 2nd amendment debate), freedom of speech, freedom to worship and the right to have a good education – or are you saying they don’t!

    I have resisted calling you any incendiary names – I would hope that you would show the same respect.

  • stuartzechman

    Rustyblog:
    .
    Hayek was, to a reasonable degree, correct in that criticism, although he was really speaking to Marxist/structuralist analysis, and not people like me.
    .
    Great quote.
    .
    Irrelevant to the current discussion, but a very important thought anyway.

  • http://afrank8.wordpress.com afrank8

    Republicans have also aligned themselves with the Limbaugh Lie Machine. That pontificating pustule Limbaugh makes up and trumpets most of the lies you heard during the health care debate.

    THIS is the nail in the Republican coffin.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    xx,
    If the federal government mandated an employer to, also, give me gym membership, I would not mind at all.
    I’ve been meaning to get to a gym.
    I, obviously, spend a huge amount of time burning one calorie an hour both doing this and my work.

    You are a libertarian.
    You wish the government role in our lives be limited to enforcing laws against violence and theft and little more.

    I am not a libertarian. I am nothing like a libertarian.

    I do want to maintain the right when not to go to the gym and when not to go to the doctor, but, I want freedom from lacking the money to go to the doctor or, in theory, go to a gym.

    I do suspect, at the behest of insurance companies there may well be a deal giving a discount to employers large enough to pay for gym membership for employees who belong to a gym and, therefore, need less medical care both in the present and in the future.
    ….
    I support mandatory car insurance since my car and a greater concern, other people’s cars do not exist on the road by themselves and, in case somebody screws up, I want coverage not a deadbeat who needs to get sued and not even have any assets to compensate me.
    ….
    I support seat belt laws which ticket people for endangering themselves especially from brain damage in a serious accident since (and let’s be real, we all know this) we already have enough people in this world who are naturally stupid.

    Newfreedombra, I am just not going to waste my time with you.

  • virginiagentleman

    Thanks, newfreedomblog. I didn’t get a chance to read the comics this morning, but you made up for that.

    This is a classic: “Yes Ladies and Gentlemen for the FIRST time in our history as a nation our Federal Government has passed a law which REQUIRES you to do something.”

    You mean, besides paying taxes and getting a Social Security number and ensuring that our representatives are elected through popular elections and registering for the draft back in the old days?

    Then there was: “Keep believing in Obama, the 70% of us who know what they are up to will save you from them.”

    So what happened, did the 48% who voted against Obama split like amoeba so they now add up to 70%? Which is really weird, because Obama’s disapproval ratings still haven’t gone above 55%…

    I liked the “gas chambers” reference, too, but I’d be careful about those references or people are going to start to notice your Nazi fetish.

    Then the grand finale: “nothing I say will convince you otherwise.”

    Finally, at long last, you said something that made sense.

  • stuartzechman

    Rustyblog:
    .
    By the way, what did you think of Hayek’s essay “Why I Am Not a Conservative“?

  • newfreedomblog

    Ahh, Mr Zilchman, it will be even more of a mass cry of “what have you done to us???” when the taxes to pay for some of this bill are taken out of their income.
    .
    When they pay income tax on their benefits for the first time in their life. When they need those benefits they think will be there over the next four years and paying for are nothing but smoke and mirrors.
    .
    I am happy and have congratulated Liberals and Democrats alike on their successful passage of the first steps towards a socialist, universal healthcare reform plan. Once the American people fully understand what this is about, what they voted Barack Obama into office to do, I think they will think twice before pulling the lever for another “Democrat” on the ballot.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    xx,
    Link please.
    It is possible that you are mistaken, so, show me the link to a news organization about this.

  • http://afrank8.wordpress.com afrank8

    According to the Congressional Budget Office, the deficit will be reduced by $143 billion in the first 10 years and $1.3 trillion in the second decade with the bill as it stands.

    Heck of a price tag!

  • sacredh

    You shouldn’t have used Japanese life expectancy as an example. Rusty/newfreedom advocated exterminating the entire Japanese population a few months back. You’re only going to p!ss him off.

  • kevin

    Lincoln was a conservative Republican? OK, I’ll bite.
    .
    Which part was conservative — the freeing the slaves part, the enforcing federal power over states’ rights part, or the whole using the massive machinery of the federal government and unprecedented rates of spending to expand the nation westward through the Homestead Act etc. part?

  • sonar612

    Time Magazine – Once a crown jewel of American “Free Press”, we could depend on Time’s unbias and truthful reporting. But, that was back in the 20th Century. Time Magazine in the 21st Century is just another Socialist rag to blind to see there love of this Federal Government, like the German Press in 1929, will soon be censored by the very criminals they are supporting! Idiots…

    Just for the record; who cares what the 545 lackies think or how they voted. The Sovereign States are now going to have their say. Unlike the Federal Government; Each State is quite close to The People. Congressmen, who knowingly vote for Unconstitutional Laws, are guilty of Treason against the People of the United States of America! We all know what the pentalty for teason is during time of war!

  • squiduk

    LOL – The entire population or just the old and frail?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    xx,
    I was in college when Bill Clinton was running for office and in Economics classes we covered course material regarding these matters.
    Sure, academics can be wrong.
    CO2 was not considered a pollutant until recently.
    Doctors in our founding father’s days were bleeding people and calling it medicine and knew nothing about bacteria.
    However this is only eighteen years ago and I have not seen anything outside of conservative literature stating that universal coverage alone would not reduce rates.
    So, I am skeptical of these claims totally different from what economists had been saying since studies were done with the German system beginning in the 1880s.
    Anybody can be wrong, but, I do need to see some revolutionary new data to prove this since this is not a new issue in the least.

  • virginiagentleman

    While we’re asking you questions, how many of these opinions do you share? (They’re from a poll recently conducted by Harris):

    67 percent of Republicans (and 40 percent of Americans overall) believe that Obama is a socialist.

    57 percent of Republicans (32 percent overall) believe that Obama is a Muslim

    45 percent of Republicans (25 percent overall) agree with the Birthers in their belief that Obama was “not born in the United States and so is not eligible to be president”

    38 percent of Republicans (20 percent overall) say that Obama is “doing many of the things that Hitler did”

    24 percent of Republicans (14 percent overall) say that Obama “may be the Antichrist.”

  • newfreedomblog

    squiduk:
    .
    I have not been against anyone getting cheap or affordable insurance. At no point have I ever advocated for the poor or the infirmed from being able to have insurance paid for by the Government. As a matter of fact, I believe and have stated that more people not just those who are “poverty level” should have Government assisted insurance.
    .
    So Sir, your diatribe against what I have said is meaningless. It is more social/liberal talking points that are not founded in any fact.
    .
    I am for competition among the now monopoly controlled insurance companies. I believe there should be massive regulations to change the democrat proposed monopoly control of our health insurance. I am against a mandate that forces people to give their hard earned dollars away to a big Insurance Company so that they can get even more rich. I am against the forced purchase of a product or service that I may or may not want.
    .
    You are simply blinded by the Democrat / Socialist talking points that all conservatives want poor people and old people to “Die Quickly” as a means to solve our healthcare problems.
    .
    Yes there were idiots like Sarah Palin who in the beginning did not know what they were talking about and called this a “Death Panel” bill. But, once the true facts were known, we quickly understood the agenda of the far left extremists of the Democratic Party. It isn’t about bringing affordable healthcare to most all Americans. It is everything about power and control.
    .
    Argue all you want for this bill squiduk, it is taking away our rights. It is taking away our freedom. It is something that someone like you from the UK will never understand as you have lived most of your life under a tyranical government. A government that hails from the old Monarchy of the past. Say hello to Queen Elizabeth for me squiduk. I am sure she appreciates your servitude.

  • sacredh

    Federal law trumps state law. If state law ruled supreme, you’d see many more politicians wanting to be a big fish in a small pond rather than the other way around.

  • grape_crush

    A day later and Republicans seem not to have gotten the memo: they are attacking the bill as ferociously as they did before it passed.

    PUMAs, then Birthers, and now what will we call the ever-shrinking minority of peeps that just can’t let go?

    HealBillies?

    GnOPes?

  • virginiagentleman

    “Time Magazine – Once a crown jewel of American “Free Press”, we could depend on Time’s unbias and truthful reporting.”

    Dude, have you ever read a bio of Henry Luce?

  • newfreedomblog

    It is indeed a great quote, Mr Zilchman and I disagree on your point that it is not relevant to this topic. The topic of Freedom which was the point of my initial comment. But, I digress.
    .
    This is what I also believe about Hayek, the same as Margaret Thatcher said about him…
    .

    “In February 1975 Margaret Thatcher was elected leader of the British Conservative Party. The Institute of Economic Affairs arranged a meeting between Hayek and Thatcher in London soon after.[28] During Thatcher’s only visit to the Conservative Research Department in the summer of 1975, a speaker had prepared a paper on why the “middle way” was the pragmatic path the Conservative Party should take, avoiding the extremes of left and right. Before he had finished, Thatcher “reached into her briefcase and took out a book. It was Friedrich von Hayek’s The Constitution of Liberty. Interrupting our pragmatist, she held the book up for all of us to see. ‘This’, she said sternly, ‘is what we believe’, and banged Hayek down on the table”.[29]

  • http://irishelf.wordpress.com irishelf

    The purpose of the “repeal” movement is simple: fundraising for Republicans. Assuming the unlikely takeover of the House, and a supermajority in the Senate, the President would veto the bill. The are simply not enough seats up to get a veto proof majority.

    The Republicans have overplayed this issue. They got everyone whipped up about Scott Brown, raised millions fro the Tea Partiers, and the guy denied that the Tea Party helped hi in his first interview and then voted for the jobs bill.

    Also, the key to the electorate is the block of independents that are turned of by the racial slurs, spitting, yelling “baby killer” on the House floor, etc.

    Richard Nixon hoped for the “Silent Majority,” what we have now is the “Vocal Minority.”

  • flameworker

    Every weekend, the Charlottesville, VA Daily Progress prints a “How They Voted” column. My husband and I play a game, guessing how Tom Perriello, Democrat, and Eric Cantor, Republican have voted.

    I always win because I can predict with regularity that if an issue will benefit “the people” in any way, Eric Cantor(and the rest of the Republican sheep) will vote against it. Equal pay? No way. Credit cards double-cycle billing emptying your wallet? Tough luck, it’s good for the credit card company. About to foreclose on your home? Cantor voted no to modify bankruptcy rules to save your home. Is your workplace dangerous? Too bad. Cantor voted against whisteblower protection from employer recrimination. If you lose your job and health insurance Mr. Cantor feels confident that some charity will pick up the tab for your cancer treatment. Education too expensive? Eric Cantor will give you $1000–to send your kid to private school.

    In other words, Republicans don’t really give a %*?! about YOU!

  • http://irishelf.wordpress.com irishelf

    I wish you luck on the “all but 34 Democrats are going to lose their jobs” part. That is one of the most naive statements I have ever read.

  • http://irishelf.wordpress.com irishelf

    Were you as irate when Bush launched two wars and cut taxes for the top 1 percent of the population (using reconciliation) and doubled the deficit during his term?

  • sacredh

    “In other words, Republicans don’t really give a %*?! about YOU!”
    .
    But vote for us anyway or else Glenn Beck will do his Niagra Falls imitation.

  • bwshook

    The bill needs improvement, but we had to have something to get started with. Like any other bill, it can be amended; added to; abridged; whatever it takes to make it better.

    The Republicans (and I used to be one) who objected to this bill, and threaten every obstructionistic means they can think of to oppose it, are history. The people in this country are so fed up with the incumbents in the House and Senate their days are numbered.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    xx,
    Abraham Lincoln was, very obviously, Republican, but, not at all a defender of the wealthy nationwide, not against taxation (first income tax), having the government tell you what to do (a draft), interested in maintaining what was then called property rights (owning of slaves) or, in any significant way, the status quo.

    Clearly Lincoln was a radical for his time.

    The attachment of progressive was first for Republicans such as Theodore Roosevelt, also a Republican.

    Democrats grabbed the term progressive for themselves starting with Woodrow Wilson and, by far the most so with FDR.

    Assigning these terms to people that far back is not clear.
    ….
    Thomas Jefferson belonged to the Republican Party soon to become the Democratic Republicans and, eventually, to be called the Democratic Party.
    Most would call Thomas Jefferson something like conservative to libertarian but defining him is not clear.

    I will say that for Jefferson and Lincoln, giving them modern definitions is an anachronism.

  • charlieromeobravo

    “Vote for me so I can take away your insurance” isn’t a winning slogan in any political climate. Keep an eye on the candidates this fall and what they say to which groups. I’d be willing to bet that the repeal thing gets massively gets no mention at public appearances but gets talked about at the private fund raising events. It’s an issue that will get great traction with the tea bagger base but there’s no way that the average voter would be receptive.

  • Joe Bftsplk

    OH, I am so pleased today! Now we’re seeing all the pants-wetting I was expecting to see yesterday.
    kbang, please forgive all the troll-feeding — I’m afraid it will be just too hard to resist!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “like the German Press in 1929″

    You do know that Hitler did not come to power until 1934, don’t you?

    Joseph Goebbels said that the German media was so biased and anti-Nazi that he had to take control over it.

    Tell me Sonar, do you have any Jewish friends or relatives or are you trying to say something totally different?

  • flameworker

    Oh, I forgot this one. Replying to George Stehpanopoulis about Republican about gay rights.

    CANTOR: “There is no question the Republican Party has to return to be one of inclusion, not exclusion.”

    I’m guessing inclusion means voting NO to including gays in hate crime legislation.
    Wow, Eric Cantor doesn’t even believe himself. LOL

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    bwshook,
    I do not know if you are a former Republican or now a Republican, but, I completely agree with your first statement. Historically every even vaguely significant piece of legislation gets redone over and over until it is very, very close to what people really want.

    I may have just agreed with a Republican!
    Amazing!

    I am not sure if Democrats are sick of their own people, though. Surely Charlie Rangle’s days are numbered, but that is about integrity, not ideology.

  • sacredh

    I broke out the snack bucket myself. I’m taking my wife out for lunch after I feed the little buggers.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Newfreedbra,
    I just checked out your dysentery discharge you so kindly dripped onto the swamp and caught two amazingly dumb assumptions:

    1) Your point of view has 70% support?
    ..
    2)I am self employed and am not a fat cat on Wall Street myself. So, for the indefinite future, I will be paying for my own health care.
    ..
    3) Most of my clients aim towards Midtown, Wall Street is where the cheap office space is.

    4) When I eventually change jobs and will work for somebody else, being asked to sign for my own insurance card is the only thing I will be ordered around about. From there, I will have, if you will, New Freedom. I will be be free to pick an available doctor for an annual checkup without being hindered by costs. I will be free to, when I have children, to take them to a doctor being unworried if any of them should have the terrible luck of a serious illness.

  • squiduk

    @ newfreedomblog

    Of course you didn’t

    ‘ advocate for the poor or the infirmed from being able to have insurance paid for by the Government. As a matter of fact, I believe and have stated that more people not just those who are “poverty level” should have Government assisted insurance.’

    I doubt you want that either, but that is the current choice.

    It is laughable that you think the dems, being barely able to get the current bill through would have been able to get more through, something more radical.

    Wouldn’t the republicans just batted it down even harder – complained that there was even more costs…hold on we don’t have to ask that question, we know from the current debate (I call it a debate whilst understanding the contridiction!) that the Reps just like to say NO, NO, NO!

    So you only have 2 choices this bill or no bill.

    Saying no to the bill equals hating the poor no matter how hard they work!

    As for living under a tyrannical government and talking of the queen just shows a huge amount of ignorance that I won’t even bother to go into.

    it is true that my government provide me with free healthcare at the point of use. OH MY G-D WHAT A TERRIBLE THING!!!! I get sick, I go to the doctor, he gives me some pills which I have to pay modestly for, then I get better.

    Each week / month a small deduction from my wages means that I can afford to get ill!

    I only wish that is the worst thing about the UK!!!

    If you had less ignorance and anger you might have been able to insult this country with some style or grace, however you seem to know little or nothing about our political system I would reserve your comments for people that don’t have a brain or even better keep that kind of thing to yourself until you have an idea of what you are talking about.

    As for mentioning talking points, I should point out, so that I can rebuff people like you, I also listen to Rush and co. I would, if I were you, take a look at some of the transcripts….must resist pointinga link…..actually here is some of my favourites http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/rushlimbaugh/a/limbaughquotes.htm

    Sorry to get off point there….I amost felt replublican there, changing the subject

    As I was saying – talking points, I am sure you have read some of the things the rep. are saying, as you mention a lot of them in your ‘posts’ are you honestly saying that you don’t use talking points?? It certainly seems like you do.

    I would love to know what ‘Right’ the bill is taking away – the right to die young?? The right to get sick and not be able to afford health care?? The right not to be able to consult a Dr so that you can prevent some illnesses?? the right to be able to go bankrupt due to lack of coverage for simple illnesses?

    The right not to get insurance is the only right you lose.

    Surely that right is not fundamental to the union?

    Now you have a legal obligation to help pay for healthcare in the country you live in!!! Oh dear g-d no please do not destroy America in this way!!!!

    You see I would have thought that there are much bigger threats to the union, bigger threats to the founding fathers vision the union, I would have thought that the patriot act, or as I like to call it, the act McCarthy would have given his left nut for.

    I don’t understand how people can spit on elected representatives for voting for the Healthcare bill and clap as they brought in the Patriot Act – is it really as some over here in the UK think.

    You like the name Patriot
    You don’t like health??

    For any of you reading this who didn’t read my first post, please be aware I love America and what it sometimes stands for in the world.

    I do not like nor approve of fake parasites that sit among you pronouncing their love of America whilst proving in actions and words there hatred for Americans.

  • http://afrank8.wordpress.com afrank8

    Using your argument, we should get rid of:
    Medicare
    Medicaid
    Organized Police
    Organized Firemen
    Gas and electricity distribution

    All of these are “socialist”

    by the way, the idiots who RAN the health care system had plenty of time to reign in $33 TRILLION per year in premiums but REPUBLICAN (Republican = NO haha).

    They kept bloating the bill until we got fed up with being 37th in the world in health care, spending more than everyone else BY FAR and getting worse care than ANY country that has adopted the system voted for on Sunday.

    GET IT??

  • apr2563

    anon, are you saying Obama will cut his second term short and retire in 2014? Will Biden become President?
    I am so confused anon.

  • apr2563

    See how confused I am. My msg was meant for you sanpaco.

  • sacredh

    “I do not like nor approve of fake parasites that sit among you pronouncing their love of America whilst proving in actions and words there hatred for Americans.”
    .
    I’ll give you a dollar if you say that you stole that line from me. I’d be proud to have come up with it myself.

  • Ivy_B

    David Waldman compiled a page of wonderful quotes about previous legislation. A sample of them about Medicare is below. Also quotes about the Clinton deficit reduction plan. The whole group is worth reading.

    http://www.congressmatters.com/story/2009/2/15/92441/0913

    Sen. Milward Simpson (R-WY), 7/8/65:

    This program could destroy private initiative for our aged to protect themselves with insurance against the cost of illness.

    Presently, over 60 percent of our older citizens purchase hospital and medical insurance without Government assistance. This private effort would cease if Government benefits were given to all our older citizens.

    Sen. Thruston B. Morton (R-KY), 7/65:

    I have always maintained that if a program is to be successful, it must… be voluntary… based on need and must not be financed through a payroll tax.

    Sen. Leverett Saltonstall (R-MA), 5/65:

    … I personally believe that a voluntary plan financed from general revenues… is preferable to the Medicare program.

  • tbarnes633

    It is a sad day in America when the President and the Dems do not listen to the people. More people were against this bill then were for it. It will make a difference in the voting in 2010 and 2012. Even some Dems new this was a bad bill. If the President and the Dems think this is such a good idea, how come they are all exempted themselves from having to particpate in it.

  • apr2563

    Run anon. New Rusty is on one of his paranoia trips. The brown shirt/cossacks are getting ready to march on us and take us to the gas chambers.
    //
    This is how sick people like Rusty are…comparing us to Nazi Germany and the Holocaust.

  • squiduk

    @sacredh

    Cheers – all mine but happy to share…

  • apr2563

    He just needed his diapers changed.

  • stuartzechman

    Like I said, Rustyblog, you rightists have put the center in a fantastic position.
    .
    Keep screaming at people that the Bolsheviks are coming, and you only make the people who passed this bill look like aw-shucks honest guys and gals.
    .
    I think that’s a very, very stupid tactic at this stage of the game, when people can see for themselves that nothing has changed.
    .
    All the center has to do is say “See? Wal-mart still there? Still have insurance through your employer? No communism here! ,” and at best, you look like dummies, at worst, liars.

  • apr2563

    suiduk thank you for your perspective. I am glad you know New Rusty does not speak for all of us. He is just a typical elitist right winger who thinks all people who do not agree with him are:
    Unpatriotic
    Lazy
    Not Christian
    Looking for handouts
    //
    He has his cliches and talking points near at hand and uses them repeatedly. Some are more dramatic and hysterical than others. He is a great believer in fear. So it goes.

  • apr2563

    Virginia that was my immediate thought. I grew up with the Luce empire, Time, Life, etc. Let’s say if he was alive now he would love the Weekly Standard.

  • apr2563

    Good way to raise money and they are also terrified of the dogs they let loose. They have fed the irrationality of the tea baggers and are now cornered by them.

  • apr2563

    It is written into the bill that congress must use the same plans that are available in the bill.

  • mhissong

    Jay, should I find it troublesome that “Reporters leaving Capitol Hill in the wee hours of Monday morning were, for the most part, heaving sighs of relief: health care reform had – finally! — passed…”? Is this an admission of liberal bias? Or, forgetting the label, pro-health care bill bias? I know it’s a new world and bias is popular and generates sales but… I didn’t think that was supposed to be Time’s schtick. I’m actually pretty middle of the road, and the health care bill’s passage doesn’t upset me. But this statement about it does. Any thoughts? It reminds me of reporters weeping with joy at Obama’s inauguration…

  • sacredh

    I’m out of here to take the mrs to lunch, but torture rusty for me. Somebody has to do it.

  • mhissong

    Of course, the relief could mostly be that this neverending news story will finally begin to recede now. Still, with very popular news networks flat-out embracing bias at this point- MSNBC, Fox- I don’t think I can be blamed for being jumpy.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Newfreedombra,
    I am glad that you put me and Anon in your category of amazingly influential people, but, I know little about Mao and don’t think of myself as influential.

    Hayak was a fairly weak resurgence of the neo-classicists school of economics.

    The most respected school of thought are the New Keynesians.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics#.22Multiplier_effect.22_and_interest_rates
    ….

    Both Democrats and, until lately when they have been making it their life goal to be to the right of Hitler, Republicans respected.

    If you knew anything about economics, you might be slightly interesting.

    Since you just like to spout out unfounded concepts and bits and pieces of things you do not understand, then you are going to be difficult to deal with.

    Hey Anon, are you famous for something I do not know about, because I sure as hell am not famous?

  • irishamericanman

    I notice that none of your reasons are: this is a good bill; the American People wanted this bill; Healthcare is a right; I have a right to have someone else pay for my healthcare; Socialism is good for the country.

    Today is the day the U.S died. President Obama killed the U.S i loved. Joe Biden is right, history WILL remember the President, just not the way he hopes.

  • irishamericanman

    Hate crime legislation is a joke. why is it worse to assault someone if you don’t like his color/sexual orientation, etc.? Assault is assault. Hate crime legisaltion is nothing but a tool for the thought police.

  • irishamericanman

    Actually, Republicans care more about the American people than any Democrat does. Republicans believe we can do anything, provided we want to work for it. Why should someone else pay for your cancer treatment? What gives you the right to take money from me and my family to pay for your healthcare? Why should I have to pay for drug treatment or alcohol treatment if no one in my family needs it? Why should I have to pay for weight loss or to stop smoking for someone else? I do not bust my rear end working to support people who made bad choices. I thought the Democratic Party supported “choice.” I guess that is only when someone else is paying the bill.

  • grape_crush

    Today is the day the U.S died.
    .
    Don’t be such a drama queen. The US didn’t die today, capitalism hasn’t been replaced by communism, and the sky is not falling. Get a grip.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Irish,
    If you, O’Reilly and Hannity could see the proud Ireland of today as my brother did this Summer, you’d be calling the Democrats far, far too conservative.

    Why worry about outsiders when the Irish seem to spend most our time fighting our own kind. Maybe Irish against Irish should be a hate crime, too, since every time you have two Irishmen talk about politics it there are some serious disagreements to say the least.

    You remind me of the South Boston types who make me wish I was an English Protestant.

    In South Boston they say that the conflicts were not racial but about class: the Southies couldn’t deal with high class Roxbury kids coming into their shanty neighborhood.

  • newfreedomblog

    Thank you for your comment irishamericanman.

  • newfreedomblog

    “For any of you reading this who didn’t read my first post, please be aware I love America and what it sometimes stands for in the world.”

    .
    And that Ladies and Gentlemen is why squid lives in the UK.
    .
    I rest my case.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I’m I Joe Biden kind of Irish American, Irish.
    I have all of my teeth.

    socialism

    –noun
    1.
    a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
    2.
    procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
    3.
    (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialism

    It’s bringing a little of Ireland to America is what this is.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

    If you think Irish Americans are less worthy of good health care than the people of Ireland, we are different kinds of Irish.

  • stuartzechman

    Thanks, Ivy

  • newfreedomblog

    I’m guessing Ms Jay Newton-Small also had that little “tingle running up” her leg as well. But that would be complete conjecture on my part.
    .
    TIME.com has not only turned into a liberal lovefest, it’s bias is one of the worst on the internet and dead tree publications.
    .
    But, TIME.com is now proud of their infestation of liberal reporters and reject any semblence of the words “fair and balanced”.
    .
    There was once upon a time, that TIME Magazine represented the average American values, ideals and beliefs. But those days are gone forever.
    .
    One only needs to look to the bottom of this website to find all the “Partners” who advertise their wares to entice unsuspecting viewers to click.

  • svenskasandy

    Hitlerizm is hanging over our heads. Read the book on Hitler and you will see what is coming. It has started before this health bill, NAFTA was one of the deals, and the Savings and Loan scandal the taxpayers (us) pay for, and the Enron scandal we all paid for and the wars we are paying for. The only freedom left is to die for our country! Air will be taxed, thought or brain waves will be taxed, and the senators and congressmen take, take, take. Americans do not give the Congress or Senators permission to spend our tax dollars. Since there is so much money for them to spend, and we have no representation, Oh Ho, what is that — sounds like the Tea Party dumpings in the Boston harbor long ago. Taxation without representation. WAKE UP America.

  • svenskasandy

    Oh Yeah, while we are all debating our opinions, ask our service men and women this: You know America is a third world country, don’t you.? I was told this by a cute little gal in the Army that was working in an accounting office. She had put in her four years and was now a reservist. She said they all know America is a third world country.

    Senators and congressmen – uncover your eyes.

  • ohiolib

    I hope colbert reads this thread. He’s got enough material here for a week.

  • pillpusher

    Big mouths like Limbosh and Glen attack a ll year old boy who lost his mother because she had no insurance and say she would have died anyway because the Obama Bill would not start until 2014. If the right wingers had not killed health care reform during the Clinton administration, she might still be alive.

  • svenskasandy

    The President of the United States is to be a representative for the people. and manage the military. He is not supposed to have supreme power over anyone. He is not supposed to act like a dictator enforcing what he wants.

    Anyone with any intelligence must know all this bickering is about money. Obama, Reid, Pelosi get billions of dollars for themselves, along with the congress and senate to pass the bill that has the most money to be made from it.

    FOLLOW THE MONEY

  • sachimidge

    Typical Ugly Slime from the far left. You are slamming the majority of Americans. If you want European Socialism, perhaps you could live there, where unemployment numbers are far higher, and living standards much lower. Why don’t you try working for a living, and spend your free time helping others.

  • sachimidge

    Dream On!

  • patriot731

    Listen up 5 reasons that we need to hold to! They don’t care about republicans! We have 7 months to turn more and more people against obamacare by telling them the truth!
    Here is the strategy.

    Can’t insurance companies deny preexisting conditions no regulation on premiums = premiums going up because of covering the preexisting conditions

    People cannot pay premiums cry to obama = obama taking over all insurance companies

    Government control = lousy medical service and insurance disaster!

    By the way we get 3 years of taxes before the “goodies” take effect.

  • chuck25

    Why does it take 67? The Democrats need only 51 to change the Senate Bill using Reconciliation. After Obama loses the 2012 election and the Republicans control both the Senate and the House, why not use the Reconciliation Process to eliminate it. Turn about is fair play. If it relates to the budget, lets slash and burn using Reconciliation. Cut! Cut! Cut!

    I wouldn’t expect anything different from Time Magazine. The objectivity of the MSM is really pathetic. This line from the article says it all. “Reporters leaving Capitol Hill in the wee hours of Monday morning were, for the most part, heaving sighs of relief”. Their advice is for us is to roll over and take it. Sorry Democrats and the accomplices at Time Magazine. We are not done.

  • notfooledtx

    Well, health care reform has been passed, and the sky has not fallen, the earth is still spinning on it’s axis, and unless you’re a public school student in Texas, you’re not forced into any communist indoctrination classes.

    All’s well in my world.

    Keep kicking that dead horse republicans. It’s easier than addressing and resolving the other issues this country is facing.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Swtizerland and Norway have a higher per capita GDP than the United States and has services from their government including free college education, free childcare far better than we can expect to get from our own government in the next 100 years at this rate.

    When the Republican Party shrivels and dies due to being completely out of touch with reality, perhaps it will be fifty years from now. Then Sachimidge, we will be more like Europe and you and the Tea Party can exercise your freedoms by going to Antarctica.

    If you want to go to a country with no government services to speak of, just go South of the border to Mexico. They have laws and so on, but, they don’t really have power to enforce much. So, you can live on very low taxes, private schools, private security instead of police and have a grand ole time being tea baggers.
    ….
    If you think the Tea Party is in the majority, I have this bridge in Brooklyn….

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Why is it that most people in America who describe themselves as “patriotic” are illiterate?

    We all love this country.
    If we didn’t we wouldn’t care who was president or what they did.

    When the right wing hated the Irish in America, they had a very fitting name. They were called the Know Nothing Party.

    Patriot731, be honest and call yourself a more fitting name like KnowNothing0.

    That would fit truth in advertising.

  • newfreedomblog

    I was just curious, is this the same “patrick sartor”?
    .
    http://www.facebook.com/people/Patrick-Sartor/653051923

  • dmittleman

    Yes, Chuck, you are right. If the Republicans get manage a majority in both houses and the Presidency, then they can repeal in 2013 with a majority vote.

    And repeal won’t take 2/3rds. They simply would pass a new law that supercedes this one. So it is 60 votes now and 51 with the imagined future majority.

    Nate Silver has a good analysis of why it is unlikely the Republicans will ever repeal this law, though.

  • dmittleman

    I restate that. 60 now, but they still will need 67 to override Obama’s veto as long as he is President.

  • sanpaco

    Hehe, point well taken that I fudged the next presidential election year, it is of course in 2012 and not 2014. That doesn’t change the fact he will not be elected again.

    Also a clarification on all but 34 Democrats losing their jobs, I didn’t say that all these Democrats would be replaced by Republicans and in fact I didn’t even say that the Republicans would gain a majority. I said that the Democrats who voted for this bill are going to lose their jobs. Now I may have exaggerated a bit. I don’t think they will all lose their jobs. Because some of them have such outrageously zealous districts that will never vote them out (ahem, Pelosi and Reid). But there happen to be good people running in both parties who represent the values of the Constitution and people will vote for them. Don’t believe me? I live in a Republican District. Yet time and time again we have elected a Democrat to represent us. Why? He represents our values.

    “The fact that the moron who wrote this is allowed to vote?”

    There you go again trying to keep people from having a choice. Are you suggesting that we ought to be giving out tests to those who are registering to vote in order to weed out the “morons” and not allow them to vote? Voting, my friend, unlike healthcare, is a right. You lefties really ought to all take a month off and go take a class on the Constitution so you can get through your heads what is and what is not in it.

    And I assure you there are much bigger morons than myself who are allowed to vote. Look at how Obama won his presidency! “He’s gonna buy me a car and give me Obamacash!” I’d rather have opinionated morons like myself who actually are trying to do what they think is right voting than a minion of Obama zombies who believe every outrageous campaign promise that can’t possibly be fulfilled. Even if the opinions of the majority are different from mine at LEAST they would have a reason other than just punching the one with the D or the R next to their name. And I’m not saying the same thing doesn’t happen on the otherside. I know there are a lot of mindless Republicans as well. But that doesn’t mean its ok.

  • mgreen69

    This bill is hugely unpopular – check the polls, moron. This is typical Time journalism and why the circulation for this Obama Administration mouthpiece has declined drastically. I hope the REpublicans will use the nuclear option, Reconciliation, to undo this bill when they have a majority in both houses in 2010.

  • http://quantumcosmos.wordpress.com morgansjc

    The iconic image of health care is going to be Pelosi walking through hundreds of protesters with her huge gavel. I’m sure she’ll pass it on to the IRS, who is the agency designated to make sure employers toe the line. Feeling the need for a little health care right now, maybe? When Mitt Romney tried this the Dems attacked him in every possible way, the usual vicious rants. Amazingly, the three core principles of Romney’s plan are visible in this one. Hmmmm…
    I like the ‘get health care from you employer or buy it or be fined’ part of this. Nothing like a good threat. And of course, the EU, particularly Greece, Spain and Portugal have done so well under socialism that I can see why we’d want to follow their model. Greece is particularly a happy country. Check it out.
    The Feds have managed Medicare and Medicaid so well that I can see why we’d want to let them manage health care. Why, the way they’ve managed costs and cut fraud is simply inspiring. Of course the House and Senate got a raise this year while Social Security beneficiaries got a two year pay freeze, but let’s not mention that. It’s cost cutting, after all. Shhhhh…
    Raise your hand if you think the Feds are going to stay within their projected budget. Those who believe they’ll even stay close? And how about those riders? Gotta love that.
    I’m a victim of this plan already. I have THS and lost my shot at a Dilaudid pump because of the fear it can’t be refilled under this bill. It’s going to run hundreds of billions if not more over budget, our great- grandchildren will be paying for this along with the budget that’s coming. Socialism is not self sustaining. It comes from tax dollars. That’s why, as well as other taxes, the EU has the VAT, the Value Added Tax. Those of you who wanted this program got it. Congrats. We’ll see what happens. I’ll watch, and hope our children don’t pay the price of our allowing the Feds to usurp the entire medical industry. They’ve been so honest and faithful, such good stewards of our rights that I don’t have a thing to worry about. Right?

  • http://quantumcosmos.wordpress.com morgansjc

    Eactly right. The most basic of police axioms: follow the money.
    In “The Wizard of Oz” it was “Lions and tigers and bears, oh no!” Here it’s “Obama, Pelosi and Reid, oh no!”. A bucket of water won’t stop this, unfortunately.
    I truly hope you liberals are right. I hope this will lead us into Utopia. After all, socialism has worked so well everywhere else. Oh wait. It’s Capitalism that’s worked so well. Even the Chinese get that, and have an emerging middle class.
    Yes, it’s about money. What we’re going to discover in an already tax raising economy is that all the free medicine ain’t free. When even firm Democratic analysts say that this bill combined with a record breaking deficit could break us, I have to listen. So maybe it’s time we stopped the partisan backstabbing and bickering going on here and get some facts going. Start with a little research on Greece and the EU. You’ll figure it out from there. And since the guy from Britain was telling us about the two Euro countries that have the highest standard of living ‘in the world’, let’s mention Switzerland, that has the lowest crime rate in the world. Gotta wonder if that’s because nearly every home has an automatic rifle in it. See? Europe is cool!

  • sansparty

    So I’m hoping that if this continues to fruition… we US citizens are treated better than native Americans have been treated by this government. I’m not optimistic. This is the same government that cannot manage Medicare, Medicaid, a postal service, Social Security and on and on.

    No US law to date requires citizens to buy anything. A whole new world has opened for future legislation. This is not mentioned in the CNN article. An omission of huge proportions. States rights were quashed beginning with the illegal war of 1861 and continue… Health care reform absolutely. Government managed… what a supremely stupid idea.

  • virginiagentleman

    irishamericanman, you make me ashamed to be of partial Irish descent.

    Using your “logic,” why am I paying for roads I’ll never drive on or trains I’ll never ride? Why am I paying for the (Republican pushed) Medicare prescription drug plan when I’m not on any prescriptions? Heck, let’s get serious, let those stinking veterans pay for their own healthcare!

    By the way, I never wanted us to go into Iraq because I thought it wasn’t necessary. Can I get a refund?

    Is there a word in Gaelic comparable to “schmuck?”

  • http://mapache.org Mapache

    All but 34? So there’d be 401 Republicans? You realize that’s 92% of the districts in the country voting Republican? You realize that the absolute peak any party has every held is the Democrats with 334 at the height of FDR’s popularity? You realize in the last 30 years no party has broken 277?

    Oh, and for Obama to lose his job in 2014, you’re predicting that he’ll get re-elected in 2012, then get impeached in 2014? That’s a really specific prediction…

  • edrogati

    The doughnut hole is fixed? Really? The last I heard it’s $250 smaller. That’s not fixed. As someone who is disabled and is enrolled in Medicare Part D, $250 is unfortunately a drop in the bucket as far as the hole is concerned.

  • tom1012

    So……we passed a health care plan written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn’t understand it, passed by a Congress that hasn’t read it but exempts themselves from it, to be signed by a president that also hasn’t read it and who smokes, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn’t pay his taxes, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that’s broke.

    What could possibly go wrong?

    Paraphrased from Maxine

  • thinkdontscream

    One simple rule;if you didn’t take the Republicans to task about their out-of-control spending for the eight years they were in charge then shut up now and forever about the Democrats’ spending. Cheney’s presidency was all about over spending and that was to kill people. This bill is a start toward allowing everyone access to the same level of care that all of you screaming conservatives enjoy, which by the way is subsidized by the government.

  • christophermahlon

    Chuck, changing the law using reconciliation would only change the law’s provisions on things regarding the budget. If they want to change the underlying structural problems they have with the bill they’d need to repeal the whole thing, since there are plenty of things in the bill that don’t pertain directly to budget matters: mandate, etc. To do that they’d need 67 votes. Which they won’t have.

  • stingfly1962

    Come on now, let’s not even begin to compare what this bill is going to do to our country compared to what this administration continues to use as an excuse for their out of control tactics. For once use your brain to understand the freedoms that we are losing as a nation if we allow the federal government to impose manditory healthcare insurance bypassing the state governments. Read the 10th Amendment, which will be fractured and worthless after this. Which amendment is next! Freedom of speech, we all know that Obama wants to be able to control what some radio stations are able to broadcast. I mean come on people, pull your heads out of the sand and quit drinking the kool aid!! Stop playing the blame game and start looking at the issues that we are facing now and will face for the next several decades due to the trillions of dollars being spent.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    No,
    I am not on facebook at all.
    I thought about plugging my work website, but then thought, do I really want people I disagree with involved with my work?
    No.
    But I am not on Facebook or Myspace.

  • maverick2k9

    Congratulations Jay, Rush “I am going to Costa Rica” Limbaugh quoted your article:
    .
    “Rush then read a Time magazine article detailing “5 Reasons Republicans Should Let Go of Health Care.”
    .
    http://mediamatters.org/limbaughwire/2010/03/23#0042

  • http://deathby1000papercuts.com mondoreb

    TIME: Servicing the DNC for 87 years and counting.

    But not for a whole lot longer.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Tom,
    You know what I find absolutely uncanny?
    Republican preemptive propaganda.

    When Bush and Cheney were draft dodgers and ran against War hero, John Kerry, before Kerry could brag and call them cowards, the propaganda machine was at work calling Kerry a coward despite facts saying the opposite.

    This is the second time they did this because they did it in 2000 to fellow Republican John McCain. They attacked his, also, amazing war record before he could let out a burp about Bush being a coward.
    ..
    Right now people are handcuffed to insurance companies which decide for the insured when or if they can get treatment in a non-democratic way for the ends of corporate profits. When attempting to take the handcuffs off of the insured, the Republicans, before the democrats say a word, say that the government is “taking over”. Yes, it is taking over in giving as many decisions as possible back the insured.

    This debate went on for over six months now. Everybody involved knows a great deal about this bill. It is 100% within all previous supreme court decisions and well within federal jurisdiction. Now the Republican propaganda machine is calling this dictatorial and “shoved down our throats”.

    When W was the president, there was a highly, highly controversial bill known as The Patriot Act. It was not constitutionally clear at all. A huge number of people have called “big brother”. It was hundreds of pages and released only a few hours before being passed. The world’s fastest reader could not have read it.
    ….
    W made a few gaffs implying dictatorial power for himself:
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8678257480937777402#
    (I’m the decider).

    Dictatorship:


    Dictatorship a second time:

    I heard on a very, very liberal local radio station a caller saying in 2008 that they thought that Bush would stage a false flag operation to stay in office and not let Obama into office and start a real dictatorship.
    I am not surprised, of course, that this was not true.

    Obama is far too careful with words than to make such gaffs and has not overstepped anything constitutionally.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “quit drinking the kool aid”
    It is very ironic for a paranoid anti-government conservative to use this reference. It was anti-government, paranoid minister Jim Jones who, when he said that there was going to be a US attack on his American ex-patriots of his cult in Brazil, he had them all drink poison laced Kool aid.

    Conservatives are ready to drink poison laced kool aid to hide from an imaginary government attack of their… their… doctor’s office?
    Is that where Armageddon is supposed happen?

    The 52% to 80% of us who believe that this is a reasonably good but very modest bill are not doing anything like drinking poison Kool aid. We are just going to work and leading our lives.

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    Ah there it is! You nailed it Joe b—f—! It’s all about victory over the republicans, nothing more. You’re all wet in the pants over something that doesn’t even take effect for a few yrs. yet, but hey, it’s a finger in the eye of those nasty conservatives, and that just makes your day, huh Joey? All those “teabaggers” crying in their beer is just heaven to you ain’t it? Enjoy you’re little playground victory, our own reps don’t even know what’s in this bill, but you’re dumb enough to think you do? Get real. There’s gonna be a whole lot o’ hell before this thing shakes out, if that’s what gets you off then sit back and enjoy the show.

  • sanpaco

    All but 34? So there’d be 401 Republicans? You realize that’s 92% of the districts in the country voting Republican? You realize that the absolute peak any party has every held is the Democrats with 334 at the height of FDR’s popularity? You realize in the last 30 years no party has broken 277?
    Oh, and for Obama to lose his job in 2014, you’re predicting that he’ll get re-elected in 2012, then get impeached in 2014? That’s a really specific prediction…

    So you obviously didn’t even bother to check and see if anyone else had already made the same observations and if I had responded to them at all. Way to make yourself look dumb. Next time try putting a little less focus on your super calculation skills and try reading.

  • roschultz

    Jay,
    You missed the point.
    This law:
    1. Failures to repeal the flawed Medicare SGR physician reimbursement formula.
    2. Includes the Independent Payment Advisory Board which will have the power to order cuts in Medicare starting in 2015
    3. Includes a “value based purchasing program” in Medicare using untested efficiency and outcome measures
    4.Includes penalties for non-participation in the Physicians Quality Reporting Initiative (PQRI). However, organized medicine was successful in delaying these penalties until 2015 and physicians will continue to receive a 0.5% bonus for reporting from 2011-2014.
    5. While the bill as noted above includes millions of dollars in grant programs to support medical liability reform initiatives, it does not expressly provide for needed reforms.
    6. It does represent an immediate increase in taxes and in the long term it is not sustainable economically.

    This is why Republicans should not let go of heallth care.

  • jerry101010

    FREEDOM!!!!!!

    This argument against health care reform is one of the most inane.

    Medicare obviously resulted in communism.

    Private health insurance companies determines who they accept and who they wont, what they pay for and what they wont, what doctor they will accept and what they wont, they also determine how a doctor should practice- by regulating what procedures they will pay for and what they wont, how long you should be in the hospital, denying coverage, going back and retroactively denying coverage, going back and finding a small error on your application and denying coverage. Oh lets not forget raising your rates, raising the cost of doing business, driving small business down or at least out from providing employees with medical care.

    Bureaucrats making decisions are in the corporations also

    While you can make a great case for excellent specialist care in the US- there is no significant data to support our health care system is anything but second rate in outcome and highest in cost.

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    Trying to figure out what’s more pathetic, an administration that would exploit and contort such a story, or an idiot like you who would swallow it.

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    And I’m wondering how, if this is such a cure all for all of America’s ills, why does it not take effect, like, yesterday, instead of three yrs. from now, (after the next presidential election) and of course the age old question: why is our all knowing and omnipotent congress not subject to the same healthcare as the average American citizen? One should ask as we are all eating dirt and rocks to stay alive, what they are having for dinner.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    2thirdsrocks,
    Well, Obama, Reid and Pelosi all just got their DDS this week because getting a vote together has been like pulling teeth.

    Progress is slow.
    ….
    He who would learn to fly one day must first learn to stand and walk and run and climb and dance; one cannot fly into flying.
    - Friedrich Nietzsche

    Don’t ask me to defend Nietzsche’s philosophy. I just find him an amazing source of random quotes.

  • jsmitan

    Gee, you’re right. Republicans should also let go of their concerns about amnesty, cap and trade, Mirandizing foreign terrorists… heck, why not just fold up tent and dissolve the Republican party all together. In fact, what America *really* needs is only one party, with Barack Obama as it’s eternal leader.

    That’s kinda what you’re getting at. So why mince words?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    What the hell, new.
    I’m on Linkedin.
    J. Patrick Sartor.
    It would be interesting to know what some of your real names are and what you look like.
    I’ve been told many times that I look like and speak like a conservative Republican although, obviously, I am not.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Before 1994 and, even more so, from what I understand, before 1980, there was a time when both parties were committed to the American people and not partisanship.

    Politics was for nerds.

    The Democrats, for the most part, were the stronger party holding one or both houses of congress since 1952.

    Either Democrats in congress or, often, Republicans in the White house would propose a new law.

    The Democrats would work on it to make it more progressive if it was a Republican idea and the Republicans would make it more conservative if it was an idea from the Democrats.

    Passing legislation was a higher priority than scoring points.

    During most of that time the political radicals were on the left, not the right such as the Weathermen and the Black Panthers.

    I can imagine Republicans giving up some of their partisan extremism, observing the very well documented effects of climate change and amending cap and trade to make it more market friendly.
    ….
    Amnesty for undocumented workers was first a Reagan idea. Clinton used it, too. It is not conservative or liberal per se.

    I say “undocumented workers” for a reason. If a person from England migrates to the United States, one does not usually say, “this is Nigel. He is an Alien.” “Alien” sounds like somebody from outside of the planet earth (which either do not exist or are so many light years away that they never got here). If you drive through a red light, I do not say “smitan is an illegal driver”. What is it that these non-citizens are doing? Working. Why is that not legal? Because they lack documents. So, I use a commonly accepted term “Undocumented workers” rather than “Illegal Aliens” since that sounds like somebody with three heads and a tail robbing a bank.

    I do firmly oppose creatures with three heads and a tail robbing banks.

  • jsmitan

    Patrick,

    My larger point is that *everyone* is partisan these days. Including – and especially – the *impartial* press. My comment was in response to Time Magazine’s advice for the Republicans to roll over and play dead. I didn’t notice much advice for the Democrats on how to *cross the aisle* or even acknowledge the concerns of the majority of the American people (interesting note on that: the day before the vote 60% of those polled opposed the bill, and the day after 60% were in support of it? The pollsters are as bad as everyone else now… just pick whichever one you agree with and use those numbers).

    But on the amnesty issue… if someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night, is he a criminal… or an *undocumented inhabitant?* Or to use another metaphor, if you’re standing in a three hour line to see a concert and someone cuts straight in to the front of the line or jumps the fence to get in, is that person merely an *undocumented concert-goer?* And the “commonly accepted term” you refer to is only commonly accepted by one side of the debate. The law states that you can’t just cross the border and set up residency somewhere without following proper procedures. Failing to do so breaks the law, and by definition that is not legal. It’s a pretty simple concept, really. Hence… *illegal.*

  • maverick2k9

    “I am against a mandate that forces people to give their hard earned dollars away to a big Insurance Company so that they can get even more rich. I am against the forced purchase of a product or service that I may or may not want.”
    .
    Well, Like you, Obama was against a mandate. Care to find out why he changed his mind?
    .
    What is your proposal in place of a mandate? How do you propose that we merge and eliminate high risk pools with low risk ones, therby reducing premiums?
    .
    And dont give me Rep Paul Ryan’s republican proposal, which is basically “Do nothing and privatise social security in the bargain”.

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    My daughter, who currently has no health coverage, will finally be able to get some. She works hard, but at a crap job where health insurance is not offered. Under this law, her employer will-sometime in the next few years-be mandated to offer it.

    The thing that bothers me about this bill is that they threw out the public option. How can they truly bring down costs without a government-run, non-profit to compete with the big insurance companies? Costs will more than continue to go up because the insurance companies are going to maintain their profit margins which will go down when they actually have to, by law, pay for the care of sick people.

    For this reason, I believe this is just a first step toward true universal care. That will really get the teabaggers’ and republicans’ panties in a bunch. But hey, it could go the other way. This new law could actually be repealed. And while we’re at it, lets repeal all social programs. Lets even eliminate public education–a social program.

  • http://cqlucinda.wordpress.com cqlucinda

    Yep-!…it is great when someone other than Yourself pays the bill-!….We have come to the point where it is O.K. to Jail Americans for a non payment of a non tax for a non service…This is beyond socialism..when 60 % of Americans oppose this bill…30% do not feel that the Lawmakers even understand it themselves and then The Democrats celibrate this while their own house is divided….Illegal plus unconstitutional…when there are doubts that Social Security will even be solvent….God bless this next generation for being willing to pay for this….

  • jsmitan

    The only problem is that your daughter’s employer is not also mandated to retain her in its employ. Forcing companies that have more than, say, 50 employees to provide health insurance is good incentive for some companies to drop down to 49 employees. That’s simplifying the situation, of course. Some larger corporations may find it in their interest to break up the parent company and create smaller, satellite companies instead to get around the new tax… er, legal requirement. Costs of doing business are going up… either consumers are going to pay, ultimately, or employees are. One way or the other. Simple, economic fact.

    There was a better solution. Partisan politics trumped needed reform.

  • stewartiii

    Hot Air — Aw: TIME magazine’s concern trolls try to be helpful
    http://hotair.com/headlines/?p=76583

  • http://cqlucinda.wordpress.com cqlucinda

    Yes…partisan politics….when something is really bad it would seem easy to offer something just a little bit better….This is a failure from both sides to act…America needs better-!…

  • chuck25

    We’ll see when the rulings come down from Parlimentary. If he rules parts “not germaine” under Recon and VP Biden steps in and overrules him, I think you have a situation where the Democrats have tossed out the Senate rules.

  • apr2563

    Chuck, if they weren’t the rules they couldn’t use them.

  • fecklessthug

    hayek and popper ayn rand oh my;
    all roads lead to totalitarianism.

    after awhile this sounds like crying libertarian wolf –
    except no crying when there’s an emergency real or imagined;
    so the crying has little or no credibility now.

    “the invisible hand is more powerful than the unhidden hand”
    – lawrence summers, director of the national economic council
    for president barack obama.

    they are the party of no because they wish the
    government they’re governing to mostly not exist
    at the time of their choosing.

  • apr2563

    New rusty: I know you think we have to love the USA unconditionally. Well, that is a rather short sighted philosophy. I don’t think you mean that or you would never be as critical as you are.

  • apr2563

    jsmitan: You must never read the Washington Post. David Broder constantly demands that Obama be more bipartisan.
    David Brooks has been calling for him to “reach across the aisle”.
    It has been a constant meme by the so called liberal media for months.
    Very little demands for the Republicans to be more bipartisan.
    You need to widen your vision of the real world.

  • http://blog.revealedsingularity.net Philip Kahn

    Actually, when you say:

    All of the hope and change promises from 2008 were misleading at best. This president has broken far more promises than he’s kept, and that is NOT George Bush’s fault.

    You’re just wrong. Check non-partisan Politifact: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/. To date, he has kept 96 and broken 16 promises, with 270 in-the-works and 86 stalled.

    @newfreedomblog,

    Well when you can add it up and it amounts to 2.5 TRILLION in cost to provide “healthcare for all”, anon76 the most brilliant, no one, not even the CBO can explain it. They can’t explain it because it cannot be done as they have said it would.

    Where do you get that number? No nonpartisan source has ever provided that. This bill costs (net) negative money. Compared to the previous status quo, the government will spend $138 billion less than before. In a way, it is almost irrelevant to say what it actually costs in dollars; the only real metric is what it costs compared to what it would cost to do nothing. It’s the only honest assessment, and it saves money there.

  • blade50

    Racism runs deep. This cancer should never be justified in a civilized country but with the election of Barack Obama the United States of America is proving to be anything but. For a party who stances are family values and pro-life, this too appears to be a facade just the same. Racist are blinded by their own hate oblivious to logic and common sense.

    Case in point the Law suit on the specific mandate to fine anyone who doesn’t have insurance is a republican provision. Something Obama initially opposed.

    As mentioned this is something past administrations have attempted in the last century. And the only administration in the last 30yrs to actually attempt to do anything was Hillary and Bill Clinton! Between Reagan, Bush 1 and 2 the only thing they gave the American people were Tax breaks for the rich, deregulation of the banks and big business (which was impetus behind the recent recession) and unjust wars with hefty price tags. Where’s the rage in the cost for that.

    The party of right to life and family values are willing to pay for death and destruction but not for health care for their own family. Just who are you taking the country back from? Are the Indians planning an attack? Hypocrisy has a place and it’s not in patriotism, civility or compassion! It’s in Racism…..

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    Which is why, in my opinion, this bill doesn’t do enough. Without a public option, there really isn’t any competition for the insurance companies. And my daughter will have the option of purchasing her own insurance through an exchange. But most employers will offer health insurance, some don’t now because they simply can’t afford to do so. I work for a nonprofit that employees over 500 workers. For each of us, health insurance costs them more than $600 a month for each of us. And we all pay another $94 a month in premiums. Last year, we had an increase of 19.5%. No word yet how this will pan out. BTW, the state finances the nonprofit I work for because its a mental health treatment center. Mental health treatment as well as mental retardation treatment have been government funded for decades and for the most part it works for everybody.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    1) This health care bill is not a liberal single payer program proposed by Clinton. It is more conservative than the one proposed by Richard Nixon. It is highly similar to one proposed by conservative Bob Dole.

    2) Even starting with a conservative proposal, Obama even had a summit with Republicans to get input in exchange of votes. Republicans would not be bipartisan by even being willing to vote for a Republican idea when proposed by a democrat.

    3) To score points, Republicans created stories about “death panels” and used everything from founding fathers, comparison to Hitler, comparison to Communism and even threw Jesus Christ at Democrats to prevent this originally Republican idea from passing.

    4)Democrats are split into two camps. Some will tell you that Obama bent over backwards for Republican votes on this and other legislation to get no such votes. Others will say that Obama just bent over to the Republicans.
    ….
    So, outside of becoming Republicans, Democrats can not do more to be bipartisan.
    ….
    As for undocumented workers, only a small percentage enter the US illegally. A huge majority came here to visit friends and family on a passport, got hired, had to (since the employer has paperwork to do so that the IRS does not close them down) pay taxes on a false social security number, do not receive any form of benefits, pay their landlord for their home, get driver’s licenses so that they can drive and pay car insurance. Hence, although I do not believe it is the best way to do things to say the least, the only thing they do which is illegal is work in the United States.

    Statistically they are slightly lower than legal immigrants for crime since they go out of their way to be arrested and legal immigrants are at a significantly lower risk of being arrested than Americans born here.

    So, to alter your example for fairness, they are like people who had seats in the nose bleeds at a concert, were seated behind a post who discovered empty seats up front and somebody who had a ticket for the front waving them on to go ahead and take the front seats. Also, this has to be a Kenny G concert – seeing something nobody else wants to see – just as the jobs both new legal and undocumented workers take are ones nobody would want unless you tripled the wages.

  • virginiagentleman

    “For any of you reading this who didn’t read my first post, please be aware I love America and what it sometimes stands for in the world.”
    .
    And that Ladies and Gentlemen is why squid lives in the UK.
    .
    I rest my case.

    ———-

    So, to live in America, you have to love EVERYTHING it stands for in the world? You’re calling for total, unequivocal support of the Motherland? Wouldn’t we do that better if we wear matching outfits, say brown shirts?

    Don’t rest your case, rest your brain, there’s not much there and you’re wearing it out.

  • thinkdontscream

    The provision in the bill that conservatives are most objecting to, are gearing up lawsuits against, is the individual mandate (the federal government saying you have to have health insurance). They are also supposedly livid over the “fact” that this bill was written along strictly Democratic party lines. Well guess who first came up with the idea for the individual mandate? Conservative Republicans! Don’t take my word for it. Check it out.

  • nyctuber

    Obama sold out real reform from day one. Democrats use Republicans as the ‘bad cop’ to their ‘good cop’ but this time both sides were exposed. It’s about money and power, this bill forces you to pay a lot of money for insurance or face a large fine, it’s unconstitutional, and both sides are equally to blame because they are exactly the same and could care less about you, your health, the blue sky, global warming, or anything else. They care about money and power, and once elected, that’s what they pursue. You’re supposed to be happy with the occasional crumb of halfway decent legislation and keep your mouth shut.

  • carolynccrone

    I wonder who is going to fire the first shot to show this rebellion is real. I am very afraid that the democrats are starting a revolution.

    - ccc

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    cqlucinda,
    You are a fountain of misinformation.
    If 30% of people who know very little to nothing about your work believe you do not know what you are doing, is that useful information?

    No.

    Would that be a fair way to measure anything about you?

    No.

    So, what 30% of people think about lawmakers not knowing what is in the bill is useless information.

    Check out the rest of this post as well as citations that a large share of the objections are from the left who find this bill far too conservative.
    Please, think first and type later.

    You will notice, if you read enough, that there are extensive reasons to believe that this bill will not increase costs but decrease them.

    Think first, type later.

  • werallcrazy

    Right now a lot of people in the rest of the world are tapping their fingers against their temples and saying: “Americans are crazy…!” Does anyone in the US know what socialism means …? Check an encyclopedia, I dare you…

    Why do you think that health care is so bad outside the US? Have you ever tried it? People in my country (New Zealand) live longer than Americans. Actually so do quite a few countries…

    Ranked: 17 New Zealand 80.36 2009 est.
    Ranked: 49 United States 78.11 2009 est. Source: CIA World Factbook

    New Zealand is above Italy. The United States is above Albania! I’m not exactly over the moon about health care in New Zealand, but I won’t come out of a serious illness bankrupt. Can Americans say the same? Maybe not. Maybe they’re already dead from a re-used cotton bud…

    There’s a new class of American uninsured: The Stubborns, who just won’t take their medicine. Stubborns don’t expect free clinics, they’ll pay for everything. And when they run out of money, Stubborns are prepared to die in the streets rather than accept a little more government control. Stubborns won’t be accepting Medicaid or Medicare either. Uh, uh. That’s too socialist for you.

    Yep, American people are crazy.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    j,
    An NPR, definitely progressive joke:
    The Republican Party leadership is in disarray.
    This has been a problem for the Democratic majority because they don’t know who to surrender to.

    NPR is a little too prudish to use the term, “bend over for” which is, for the most part, what many progressives think Obama has done.

    Now I appreciate the president’s strategy:
    Give the Republicans a bill so moderate and inoffensive that they could either agree with it and calm down their incredibly over-the-top rhetoric like things about “death panels” or force them to shout down as communist and anti-Christian this moderate legislation and make the Republicans in office into a laughing stock.

    Republicans chose to be laughing stocks and it will show at the polls.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Crazy,
    In defense of the conservatives I have been debating against, it is well known what happens to Republicans when they get a pink slip. They become Democrats.

    When they get sick, if they can’t afford their own health care, they will run to doctor their insurance company has and flush their paranoia down the toilet.

    I hope that mental health coverage will soon, also, be covered for all Americans, but, as you noticed, it may cost our Republicans whatever base they have left.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Carolyn,
    Joe Stack, the American suicide bomber was a Tea Party believer.

    Eric Rudolph was Christian Fundamentalist when he set off a bomb at the 1996 Olympic games.

    Timothy McVeigh was a right winger.

    The militia movement are very conservative and very heavily armed.

    Democrats are students, teachers, blue collar union members, residents of cities with strict gun laws and about half of all professionals.

    Democrats are the government right now and it seems very likely will gain even more in the 2010 elections.

    It looks like your people are going to hype yourselves up with completely unfounded assertions and start attacking the America you pretend to love so much while Democrats, unarmed and uninterested in combat duck.

    Carolyn, you don’t have an AK 47 around, do you?

    Like most Democrats, the closest thing I have to a weapon is my silverware.

  • http://www.fewmets.org/ unclesmrgol

    The author forgot a few points:

    6. The entire conservative population will become Mennonite or Amish. That’s a good thing — they will become more pacifist and less inclined to think of things patriotically. It means that rich liberals like Soros and Gates will be paying for healthcare for the rest of us.

    7. It means that, finally, we have a legal reason to lock up all those anti-Choice people who refuse to support with their tax dollars a woman’s private right to choose.

    8. Only liberals use tanning booths anyway.

    9. Only old people use pacemakers, stents, and artificial heart valves. That’s why we chose to Cadillac Tax these things.

    10. Some seniors in Florida are more senior than the rest of us.

    11. Ditto for Nebraska.

    12. We were paying doctors too much under Medicare anyway.

    13. The Comparative Effectiveness of grandma’s hip replacement surgery will finally be determinable.

    14. Those high deductible catastrophic care policies didn’t cover enough. Anybody who bought one deserves better, even if they can’t afford “better”.

    15. The Government forcing people to buy things is the American Way. The poor really ought to be buying healthcare for their children.

    16. It’s always sound actuarial practice to say that something which costs twice as much as we are earning is deficit neutral.

    17. It’s OK to impose unfunded mandates on the States.

  • http://www.fewmets.org/ unclesmrgol

    18. It’s standard fare, in bills like these which help the American people so, for Congress to bravely exempt itself from same, in order to set a patriotic example.

    19. “no” is a dirty word — ask any lecher.

    20. It’s OK to provide Viagra to a convicted sexual predator.

    21. It’s OK to force doctors, nurses, and pharmacists to participate in abortions even if they have personal objections to same.

    22. Ditto for participation in suicide.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    gol,

    7) Tax dollars are still not paying for abortions. The actual controversy was if plans that did, also, cover for abortions would be qualified as acceptable. The Hyde Amendment remains in tact.

    8) I thought it was only Republican CEOs who want to look good on TV defending their hundred million dollar severance package who used tanning booths.

    9)The Cadillac plans are ones with no copay. Now all plans must cover pacemakers, stents, and artificial heart valves.

    10) ?

    11) ?

    12) That was not addressed: true.

    You are still confused a few more times about abortion.
    Democrats are not supporting assisted suicides.

    You might be mistaken since opposing this benign bill with a good deal of benefits, the Republican leadership just committed political suicide.

    If you are against assisted suicide, then you would love this bill.

    If you are against the government funding abortions, then you would love this bill.

    If you are against doctors being forced at gun point to do anything at all, then you would love this bill.

    If you are unaware and like to make up sht, then you will hate the things you imagined this bill would have.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    2thirdsrocks,
    I’m sorry, in the alternate universe you live in people get expensive health care treatment without either money or insurance.

    I think that you are just upset that the drugs you are on will not be covered by the Obama plan.

    Sorry, no more LSD for you.

    You will have to buy your own, still and may, still be arrested since nobody wants to legalize drugs which make people as delusional as you are.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Follow the money?
    The money is being hoarded and kept out of the hands of the working poor.
    Democrats have followed it and now, even when you get a burger from Burger King you will not have to worry that the worker has a contagious illness to make you ill.

    Greece has problems with it retirement policies.
    It’s health care is not in bad shape.

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    Crazy,

    Were you aware that mental health treatment is actually commnity-based and funded through the states with federal, state and county monies? I work for an agency that receives their funding in this manner and work exclusively with young men below the age of 25 who have serious mental illnesses. I’ve also been on the board of my county mental health/mental retardation office. Every county has one, it is a part of the office of health and human services. And the agencies that receive county/state funding don’t just treat the poor, they treat anybody. If you are unlikely enough to have a health policy that doesn’t offer mental health treatment, these community based treatment centers will offer services on a sliding fee scale and sometimes for free–making it up from the funds they’d already received for the county/state.

    Check out your locale health and human services department and check into what the office of mental health is doing.

  • http://valeria73.wordpress.com valeria73

    You can bare your arms whenever you want, weather permitting!

  • logicalmayhem14

    @Newfreedom – “Yes Ladies and Gentlemen for the FIRST time in our history as a nation our Federal Government has passed a law which REQUIRES you to do something.”

    Well technically speaking, you’re NOT required to purchase insurance. Its just that if you choose not to – which you can do, you still have a choice – you’ll have to pay a fine. This is done purely to prevent people from gaming the system and waiting until they get sick to buy insurance (since they cant deny for pre-existing conditions anymore). But bottom line you can still choose. This really isn’t all that different from Social Security, where the government automatically deducts from your paycheck. And actually you have even less choice with SS, since you can’t avoid the tax by getting your own 401k or something like that. And don’t nitpick with “SS is a tax, HCR is a fine.” They’re both the government charging you money. Same difference.

    And I loved this quote “They can tell you what you WILL buy, what you WILL eat or drink.” You nailed it buddy. Clearly if a politician thinks the government can increase its role in mitigating the public’s risk of getting sick (or at least going bankrupt from being sick), then that politician also MUST be against freedoms of any kind. There’s no gray areas here. If you have any political beliefs, then you must also subscribe to the most extreme, fringe-members of that belief system.

  • http://cqlucinda.wordpress.com cqlucinda

    Dear Patrick…You rebut the weaker statistic in My comment but acknowledge the stronger one as fact-?…Curious(?) as I am obviously new to this and am learning…Thank You-!…Less than 60 percent of Americans support this Bill…God Bless this next generation that is willing to pay for this-!….

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I wish I copied and pasted the facts from other postings I had made and, better yet, somebody who got this one: 39% like the bill, 13% believe it is too conservative, 43% believe it is too liberal and 5% objected for other reasons…. something like that.

    I keep on going onto different posts and explaining what I learned in college in economics classes taught when Bill Clinton was proposing this.
    …..
    1) Germans had National Health Care since 1883. Modern Economics is far younger than German Health Care.
    2) German and, later other countries national health care (mostly between 1946 and 1960) have, also, been studied.
    3) The results are interesting. The most expensive patients are unable to work. In America, that means that they are on Medicare already.
    4) The majority of the uninsured are childless people under the age of 40 who are, usually, very low insurance users.
    5) Uninsured people do not stay sick. The get subsidized care at hospital emergency rooms.
    6) The subsidy is not government. It is the hospital grabbing the money of insured people by billing the difference to the insured people. That explains those infamous $25 asprins and so on. So, when I got subsidized care for an ear infection, through the hospital, you paid for it. Thank you. I do like having stereo hearing.
    7) Becuase of the incredibly long waits, like my time with an ear infection ten years ago, I waited until I had no hearing one ear and very serious pain. This meant that I needed much more antibiotics than had I gone weeks earlier and, since I was partially deaf, had to go back a second time to make sure that I would have hearing. I do. My visits billed you and your insurance twice. Thank you again.

    So, if either I – and I am self employed – had to pay for my own insurance or, if I have an employer pay it, I would be paying more, not less, than if I got billed only for visits I make. That is, unless I have bad luck and suddenly have a serious ilnesss (knock on wood).
    ….
    So, with most of the uninsured being low cost and when they are ill, costing two or three times as much due to the waiting until it gets really bad, the uninsured will reduce, not increase, most of your insurance costs if we all paid full price.

    Low wage self employed people will get subsidized making it budget nuetral. It will eat that savings which was going to lower your insurance costs.

    Wal-Mart, Burger King and other places will have increased labor expenses. Since it will be all of the companies, not, say, McDonalds but not Burger King, they will all raise their prices very slightly at the same time to cover their employees health care.

    Your fast food, convenience store goods and a few other things will go up in price.
    ….
    Technically 61% opposed the bill.
    However, 52% oppose the Republican plans to do absolutely nothing.
    ….
    So, you will not see a drive to repeal the bill.
    ….
    You will not see an increase in insurance premiums.

    You will, probably, not mind much yourself in the future and not be one of the 48%.
    ….
    Your fast food will go up in price as will goods at Wal-Mart and other places which do not insure their workers before this bill.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I forgot.
    When I was being tough and let my ear infection go, I was contaminating people like you, your friends and your family.

    Sorry about that if any of you did get my ear infection of early 2001 (actually nine, not ten years ago).

    But, you will be getting fewer minor illnesses yourself in the future since restaurant workers, store clerks and, at non-union grocery stores, these people will be getting medical care within a few days of feeling ill rather than toughing it out and, in the process, contaminating you, your friends and family.

    So, when you pay an extra dollar here and an extra dollar there in increased prices of some goods (your accountant, your lawyer, your stock broker and all of them will experience no change since they do insure themselves already) you will be sick less often.

    Once again, thanks for the double dosage (double what I would have gotten had I not ignored the problem) of antibiotic, the two visits to the doctor which your insurance indirectly paid for and sorry for contaminating you when I was ignoring it.
    ….
    After this bill you will pay in a more straightforward way of higher prices at McDonalds.

  • http://cqlucinda.wordpress.com cqlucinda

    Patrick….It still seems “We” have the same math-!…The figure I quoted was from Time so again -?….I am still curious as Your arguement that people do not think lawmakers understand it themselves and still 60 percent of Americans do not support this bill for WHATEVER reasons….

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Do the math again:
    ….
    Support this version of health care reform: 39%

    Against any federal government health care: 48%

    Want a more liberal health care from Democrats: 13%

    Therefore:
    Who wants Republicans to undue health care: 48%

    Who wants Democrats to keep health care: 52%

    I had also posted a June 2009 NY Times survey about health care and an overwhelming majority wanted it.

    It seems very, very probable that a huge number were pushed away from bad information regarding abortion (the government won’t pay for any, as they did not and will not require anybody to pay for an insurance plan which does) euthanasia (still totally illegal, not changed one bit) and huge tax increases (none planned but, possibly some coming).

    Once those things are cleared up, that 48% who would want to repeal the bill will shrink and shrink to tiny numbers like the people who believe that the earth is flat.

    So, it may be wise for a Democrat to run on increasing health care reform, however, it will be unlikely that a Republican can win on that 48% and shrinking.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Imagine you are in congress and, unlike real congresspeople, you have absolutely no opinion.

    You have three options:

    1) Do not support health care reform at all and PO at least 52% of Americans while pleasing 43% (5% undecided). This was the Republican strategy.

    2) Support a Clinton/Nixon/JFK/Harry Truman/ Theodore Roosevelt/ (please note TR and, of course, Nixon, were Republicans) complete revision of health care and PO 87% of Americans with 39% wanting to cut back part of what you had done and 43% heavily armed Republicans who want to kill you.

    3) Support this bill with 43% of the public PO calling it too liberal, 39% happy and 13% wanting you to rush back and add on much, much more.

    Got it?

    This isn’t a binary decision of an up or down vote like, say, attacking Iraq for no reason.

    This is like the dimmer on your dining room light switch. You can have no health care reform, some, a little more, a little more….

    So, you are never going to have a bill which pleases a majority of the people.

    You stand in the middle and, while both sides scream at you for a little while, they relax and find out that you are not going to change abortion laws, not change euthanasia laws, not change the right doctors have in not performing abortions if they do not want to, not raise taxes and not change the coverage you already have if you are one of the two hundred and fifty five million insured people.

    Liberals has conservatives “jam” the Iraq war “down our throats”.
    Liberals had deregulation of our financial services industry taking away the protection we once had “jammed down our throats” and with it, this recession caused 100% by that deregulation “jammed down our throats”.
    Liberals had torture by the US government “jammed down our throats”.
    Liberals had “Star Wars” an absurd concept like shooting a bullet with a bullet in mid air which the Soviet’s gave up on in 1972 (because it was a complete failure and waste of money) “jammed down our throats.”

    Finally the majority of the people agree that we want something – but we do not completely agree on what – done about health care.
    ….
    So, now, in the minority and having ideas which do not benefit the vast majority of the people on health care (doing nothing) this is a part of democracy. It your turn to open up wide and say “aaaaaah”.

    Having had the Patriot Act among other things jammed down my throat, I can tell you from experience that if you don’t sit around and dwell on being on the loosing side of a debate, it doesn’t hurt too much.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    BTW: When progressives talk about it, we do not describe what you conservatives had done to this country as being “jammed down our throats”.
    ..
    We usually describe it as an act done to the other end of the GI track.

    With the War in Iraq, I do not know anything about it’s real life experience and the recession caused by removing the protections we had in the financial markets, I can guess this is what it must feel like being the new pretty boy in a jail.

    So, we are getting people to doctor’s offices.
    That really couldn’t be too bad.

    It’s not like you could, legally have your phone tapped and have such a castrated government that corporate greed ate the job you had or were trying to get. That is what we experienced.

  • lisa4588

    I’m very curious.

    The House provided the Senate H.R. 3590, a Bill from House to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to modify the first-time home buyers credit in the case of members of the Armed Forces and certain other Federal employees, and for other purposes.

    How did it get turned into the Health Bill by the Senate with AMENDMENT NO. 2786 offered by Sen. Reid?

    And what ever happened to the original Bill about first-time home buyers credit??

    Article I Section 7 of the US Constitution says:
    All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

    Can the Senate do what they did? Can they completely gut a Bill offered by the House then change the TEXT, TITLE, SUBSTANCE and COST of a bill, especially when money is involved? Is that somewhere in the small print of the Constitution? More research needs to be done on the law and how that can be done.

    Very sneaky and maybe against the law, to say the least!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I am very sure that this has been done before.
    .
    The concept of any of this being unconstitutional is not related to that concept. It is just a conservative fiction.
    .
    I am not that good at detailed congressional history, but, adding on things to bills and “horse trading” go back to the Washington Administration.
    .
    An appellate attorney who will have a background in constitutional law will know the answer.

  • lisa4588

    patricksartor

    You said “The concept of any of this being unconstitutional is not related to that concept. It is just a conservative fiction.” I think constitutionality is related to that concept. And did you mean the Constitution is conservative fiction? If so, are you from this country?

    It may have been done before but does that make it legal? I hardly think so! And I’m sure that’s not what the framers meant by their words in Art I. Would that mean that theft, and even murder, should be considered legal because they happen all the time? Really? Get serious!

    That’s real transparent! Not!

    And is the public aware that when they track Bills that they need to watch EVERY MINUTE to be sure a Bill on XXX subject doesn’t turn into a Bill on YYY subject?

    Watching C-Span or C-Span2, is only available to those who have cable but maybe those broadcasts are supposed to fill the “transparency” issue. Gee maybe we all should stop watching regular TV, with all their commercials, and instead tune to the C-Spans? Commercial free :-)

    But you are right, an attorney who will have a background in constitutional law will know the answer!

    Again, VERY sneaky!

  • lisa4588

    patricksartor

    I just saw…. you are a progressive. That explains so much.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Lisa,
    My family has been in New York since the 1890s on one side and in the area since the 1850s on the other. I am from this country.
    .
    I have a relative who is an attorney for the department of justice.
    .
    There is a term called a legal precedent.
    .
    When a law is interpreted as being A in, say, 1896, then, until a court as high or higher reverses that decision, it is read that way forever.
    .
    All laws banning murder have been exactly within expectation in their interpretation.
    .
    There have not been successful challenges to laws written the way that this one was.
    .
    So, this is legal.
    .
    The arguments I have gotten over and over about this reform being supposedly illegal is about if the federal government could tell a company what to do in terms of buying insurance.
    .
    Long story short: yes, the federal government can tell your business what to do and to make your employer buy insurance for you.
    .
    If you are eager to score a random and useless point, then, unfortunately, almost everything done in the past ten administrations will have to be thrown out and our laws would be something like they were in the 1890s when the last of my ancestors arrived.
    .
    We should be careful of things that President Theodore Roosevelt does, shouldn’t we?

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    Many in congress have said they will voluntarily go into exchanges, ect. Some of our older lawmakers are already on medicare (Barney Frank being one of them).

    The viagra issue isn’t really a health care issue. It’s more of a legal issue and can be addressed at any time. Why do most insurance companies pay for viagra anyway but many don’t pay for birth control?

    The so-called Cadilac tax has nothing to do with pace makers, ect. And its not just old people who use them. My ex-husband has had a pace maker since he was 7 yrs. old. It’s need was due to a congenital heart defect and his parents were unable to get insurance for him–he’s been on some kind of public insurance his entire life–first medicaid and now medicare.

    I don’t know about other states, but in PA no health professional is required to participate in abortions or assisted suicide. And there is nothing in the new law that changes that.

    I could go on, but I would hope you get the picture.

blog comments powered by Disqus