Health Reform Vote Rout

The fuss? That too many cowards would vote against it while hoping it would pass anyway.

“So what was all the fuss about?”

Uh, well, the establishment/corporatists being 100% certain that their will is done, as opposed to the people’s? And, oh yeah, making sure progressives suck on it for evermore. Mission accomplished baby!

Enjoy your victory, Joe Klein.
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I would caution you against hubris, but your side has won in a significant way.
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Liberals got nothing, your centrist New Democrats got everything, and conservatives have eroded their national credibility with easily dis-proven hysteria.
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From this moment forward, your side can claim –even with zero Republican votes– that their bipartisanship fetish was what propelled you to victory, and if you had listened to the “f*cking retards” (liberals), you’d have never gotten this across the finish line.
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When it ultimately proves to be unpopular with most middle-class Americans, you can blame it all on liberals, and cut back on subsidies and Medicaid once again. It’s near-genius, actually.
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How your side played back and forth with the dangling public option –a policy that was rejected by the Daschle-Dole plan in February, 2009, if liberals had been smart enough to look that up– was simply masterful. The transformation of “universal health care” as a campaign slogan that appealed to liberals into the “universal coverage” mandate that Barack Obama himself opposed during that same campaign will surely be looked upon by future politicians as a model of how to break promises to liberals.
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You guys really did a number on us. We bought the whole line. Who could have predicted that MoveOn.org, the people who your side were only too eager to passionately denounce, would actually threaten to primary liberal Democratic representatives, if they didn’t go along with Daschle-Dole? Amazing…
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So, no caution from me against hubris, no caution from me about keeping your plans to privatize Medicare out of sight for the time being, because you really have won an enormous victory tonight, Joe Klein.
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Sincere congratulations to your side for your historic political victory. You’ve earned it.

We got one thing, access for the uninsured (with subsidies). I’ve never believed that should have been job one. I’ve always felt that making the system more generous and less expensive for every American should have been the goal. But they stopped talking about that so early on and so I take benefits being extended to the uninsured as a small victory.

But we’re not done yet. And we have to fight the real root problem: the corporation should not be the most dominant force of social organization.

We didn’t “get access for the uninsured,” that’s a huge part of the Daschle-Dole plan.
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It’s not a victory for us, it’s what New Democrats were going to do all along.
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It’s access to insurance, which still means private insurers get to manage costs, which means claims denials and care denials, and maintenance of the whole Byzantine, Kafka-esque structure.
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Private insurance access with subsidies for mostly uncontrolled prices isn’t liberal policy, it’s centrist policy. The whole point was to gain access for everybody, so that eventually seniors can be moved off of Medicare into the exchanges.
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If you like centrist policy, that’s one thing, but “access” isn’t liberal policy, nor a liberal gain.

I feel ya, sz. I’m with you entirely. But the insurance with subsidies will definitely help some people get to the doctor.

But yes, how convenient that the ONLY way we can figure out to get people to the doctor involves creating an enormous subsidy for a well-connected for-profit industry. And no, I don’t understand why Joe Klein thinks that’s okay and I do wish he’d chime in on the topic.

Wow. Do you really believe we could have gotten anything better than this? Single payer? Public option? Not with the Republicans refusing to participate in the process. If the GOP had acted in good faith, the Blue Dogs and the odious Lieberman would not have wielded the power they did.
America isn’t a center-right country, it’s an ignorant country. Most Americans didn’t bother to find out what was in this bill or any other bill — they just listened to whoever they thought was the best-looking political spokesmodel. The Republican party, the party of cynicism, played a big chunk of the population like a cigar-box banjo.
This momentous-yet-mediocre bill barely passed. Driveling, mendacious fools like Michelle Bachmann and the dumbasses they represent almost stopped it. If you don’t recognize America’s political base — left, center and right — has the intellectual curiosity of a GW Bush, you’ll never understand why it’s so hard to make progress.
I’m no snob. I don’t gloat at the ignorance of my fellows; I think it’s a damned shame. But I’m happy with this bill. It gets us a little closer to being a country that respects the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I’m just a little happy because passage p!sses off my conservative friends. I’m going to pick up my $50 bet from a friend tomorrow and put it aside for Obama’s re-election campaign. He called me just a little while ago and was screaming at me. Music to my ears folks.

You are one tolerant friend!

It’s been suggested by the President that the public option could return as it’s own bill in the near future.
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I expect we could hear more about this after the current bill passes, but I think the message to progressives is pretty clear. Go win some more seats and we’ll talk.
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I think you have to look at things in more of a big picture sense, SZ. Politics is about momentum. For the last 10 plus years, Republicans have succeeded in dragging nearly every aspect of our political discourse to the right, to the point where the mainstream Democrats, who seemingly define themselves simply as the party that’s more liberal than the other party, view this pretty conservative bill as a win. It’s a win for progressives in the sense that it’s some evidence to suggest the scales are tipping back in our favor.
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Call it incrementalism if you like, but the simple fact is that a political body as disjointed and slow as the United States can’t jump all the way across the political spectrum in a day, or even in a year. This is a tug of war, and liberals just narrowly avoided being pulled into the mud, where we would certainly have been had this bill failed. If we keep building on this momentum, as it seems likely to me that we will (I think Tea Party enthusiasm is either going to dull or divorce itself completely from the GOP after this, leading to a potentially easy victory for Obama next time around), a Public Option could happen in Obama’s second term, if not sooner.

“I think the message to progressives is pretty clear. Go win some more seats and we’ll talk.”
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Exactly.

LOL. I live in a very conservative area and most of my friends are conservative. I tried calling him back but he has caller ID. He wouldn’t pick up the phone. I left him several messages. The last was “SHOW ME THE MONEY!”. After work tomorrow I’ll stop at his house wearing my Obama mask with my hand out.

Stuart it will take bankruptcy before real reform is enacted, because there will be no other option. At that time the ideas that are considered radical now, will miraculously become pragmatic, then. My guess is the exchanges will morph into a kind of privately run single-payer system.

So what was all the fuss about?”
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For one thing, it was about proving that the Catholic Bishops control the uterus of every poor woman in America. The President just put it in writing.

Do you honestly think the liberal left is going to be enthused to vote for progressives (with Ds next to their name) this fall? I would vote, albeit with nothing approaching enthusiasm, if I were an actual resident of the place I’m registered. I always have, opting for the lesser of two evils.
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But there is a whole demographic of latent Nader voters, starry-eyed youth voters from way back in ’08 who believed the hype etc. These folks will be sitting Nov. out I’m afraid. And though I’m for passage of HCR, however terrible this bill is, this will likely be a blot in the rearview mirror in the fall–if unemployment still hovers at 10%…

All your uteri are mine!

I’ll see your uterus and raise you a spermatoza.

ALL UR UTERI ARE BELONG TO US

Wait – this is all a grand conspiracy by Democrats to phase out Medicare? Then why was the GOP so opposed to it?

destor23:
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I don’t understand why Joe Klein thinks that’s okay
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Joe thinks it’s more than OK because Joe is in favor of an entirely privatized health care system, in which there is no Medicaid and no Medicare (and no VA, presumably) whatsoever. Unlike the Japanese or French or Germans, however, he wants to keep peoples’ “skin in the game.”
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That’s the Third Way plan for health care.
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When Joe says he wants Swiss health care, he means it.
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Joe is doing cartwheels right now.

“I’ll see your uterus…”
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Not without buying me dinner first.

They weren’t supposed to be opposed to it.
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Bob Dole said that 20 Republicans would vote for it, as long as there wasn’t a public option.
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The Republican party just doesn’t have the establishment leadership that’s as disconnected from accountability to its base the way the Democrats are.
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Also, market fundamentalist conservatives oppose Medicare (single-payer), but they also oppose the state creating exchanges, too, which is pure Third Way policy. The government stepping in to create a marketplace is contrary to the free market, so the right is against that in principle.
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The Third Way ideologues want everything –including seniors– to go through state-created exchanges, where the largest players can partner with government to rule us idiots. That’s the New Democrats’ plan to dismantle Medicare. The GOP just want to eliminate it however they can.

I agree with hellslittlestangel @ 7:20. This isn’t the bill I wanted, but let’s not kid ourselves, what we wanted wouldn’t have gotten this far, let alone passed. Until we elect people who have the courage to vote for the convictions we elect them for, this is as good as it gets. I was not surprised that Obama is more centrist than many people thought, but I don’t kid myself that Hillary would have been better on this.
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The political climate is so poisonous in this country right now, most people I would like to see in office wouldn’t think of running. For some reason they don’t want themselves and their families trashed for no good reason. We need to fix the system before we get better laws.

Actually Derek, bankruptcy would be much more likely to result in the termination of Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, which is why Republicans don’t want to enact any sort of reform which would make those programs more viable, and why they do want to continue cutting taxes. The larger the Medicare burden becomes, the better an argument that it must be destroyed sounds.
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It’s called starving the beast. In the GOP lexicon, it forces government to stay small by denying it the funding to expand and infringe on people’s lives. Expressed in real words and actual consequences, it’s a system where by underfunding government, you force a budgetary crisis and then insist that social programs which by no means are too generous are the heart of the problem.
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It’s perhaps best on display in New Jersey, where with one hand the Governor is decreasing taxes on those who earn more than $400,000 a year, and with the other he’s enacting drastic cuts in education funding. You read the papers and listen to the radio, and there’s an incredible amount of people who buy into the idea that the teachers are the cause of all our financial woes. Because we all know how rich teachers are.
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I really haven’t been able to learn enough about the Greek situation to say for sure, but it seems likely to me that the exact same political game is behind their new ‘austerity’ program. The government’s in debt? Easy solution: cut the mailman’s salary! The only question is whether their conservative party forced that financial crisis the same way our conservatives are trying to perpetuate the Medicare crisis.

“Not without buying me dinner first.”
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It just so happens that I have an extra $50.

Things just keep getting better. There’s some fanatics that live three houses down from me. There’s a “For Sale” sign in their front yard. They kept taking down my Obama signs in 2008. I ran over their McCain/Palin signs with my truck.

Speaking for myself, a far-left liberal, I’m VERY enthusiastic about November, much more today than I was yesterday. As for the self-proclaimed progressives who are outraged and disappointed (I like to call them the Pee Potty Patriots — firedoglakers being the best example), I don’t think they’re starry-eyed youths. I suspect most are middle-aged, enamored of a 1960s of the mind, and unforgiving of intrusions on their fantasies by realpolitik.
The “progressives” will be demoralized, but less so than their counterparts on the right. The hatebaggers were never anything more than a bunch of bitter oldsters whipped into one last glorious frenzy of peevish bigotry.
I have been a big fan of Kucinich (my rep is Chaka Fattah, who is also a good guy). Then I was pissed at him, then I stopped being pissed. Hell, I’m not even pissed at Stupak any more. I’m an idealist, but I don’t expect anyone to actually live up to my ideals.
Um, also… I’m wrong a lot.

Ivy_B:
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I believe that a big difference in the way you and I think about this legislation can be summed up by saying that you think this is the best we can get, whereas i think that we’re a big step closer to Third Way health care.
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Given what we know about Third Way ideology in practice, e.g. NAFTA, Gramm-Leach-Bliley, FISA “reform”, etc., I think that means we’re a big step closer to the health care system imploding.
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You’re looking at what we got out of it, I’m looking at what comes next along these lines, which is Joe Klein’s friends’ “Swiss” model.

Are they moving to Costa Rica?

“It just so happens that I have an extra $50.”
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Ya know, a year ago I might have found that offer a little bit insulting…big boy.

No jubilation for me until the bill is signed into law by El Presido Obama.

Once the reconciliation of this bill is completed, goes through the Senate and it is finally signed in to law, I might stop listening to Fox news all together. Although, I like Greta, Huckabee and a few others.
Fox news has not been simply anti-Obama today, they have upped the ante on fear mongering and that tack just is atrocious.

Anyway, no rejoicing for me until it is over, I mean reallllly over.

LM

http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/2010/03/10/technology-savvy-nigerian-criminals-are-the-greatest-threat-to-national-security/

“…I think that means we’re a big step closer to the health care system imploding.”
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Then what?

The $50 is for dinner! Why I’m….shocked and disgusted! (Call me)

The message to progressives is you will never have any power in the party until the center fears they can no longer count on your support and vote. Progressives need to completely destroy the belief of centrists, that they can take the progressive vote for granted. That will be achieved by finding a third party option, or staying home.

Huckabee is on Fox?

Then what?
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Then a round of TARP for health care, both providers and insurers.

“this will likely be a blot in the rearview mirror in the fall–if unemployment still hovers at 10%…”
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Yep.

Then what?
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Then a round of TARP for health care, both providers and insurers –like the response to the failure of the repeal of Glass-Steagall.

Hell’s, thanks for the optimism-feed.
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Derek, I’m with you. As GG said the other day:
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“nobody will ever, ever take progressive threats seriously again in the future, because they know that progressives will do what they did here: namely, get in line at the end and support what the Party wants even if none of their desired changes to a bill are made.”
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Anywhere off the hilltop is fine with me. They were always putting big 4′x8′ plywood signs in their front yard announcing the end of the world and “Jesus Loves You”. They are nucking futs.

Am I the only one that needs gender cue cards around here?

Derek:
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Stuart it will take bankruptcy before real reform is enacted, because there will be no other option.
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What’s the option after the financial meltdown Third Way ideologues caused, after real bankruptcy of the largest banks in the world?
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Real reform?
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At that time the ideas that are considered radical now, will miraculously become pragmatic, then. My guess is the exchanges will morph into a kind of privately run single-payer system.
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My guess is that we’ll see 20 TARPs for health care providers and insurers before we get close to a rational system run for the benefit ordinary peoples’ interests.

jcapan it seems to work well for the so-called independents. A clean break at this point makes sense since we now know there isn’t a single “progressive” currently in the party, who can be trusted.

David Sirota (someone with whom I don’t always agree) puts it like this (link to “The Health Care Bill: What’s the Matter With the Democrats?”):

First, their leaders campaign on pledges to create a government insurer (a “public option”) that will compete with private health corporations. Once elected, though, Democrats propose simply subsidizing those corporations, which are (not coincidentally) filling Democratic coffers. Justifying the reversal, Democrats claim the subsidies will at least help some citizens try to afford the private insurance they’ll be forced to buy—all while insisting Congress suddenly lacks the votes for a public option.
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Despite lawmakers’ refusal to hold votes verifying that assertion, liberal groups obediently follow orders to back the bill, their obsequious leaders fearing scorn from Democratic insiders and moneymen. Specifically, MoveOn, unions and “progressive” nonprofits threaten retribution against lawmakers who consider voting against the bill because it doesn’t include a public option. The threats fly even though these congresspeople would be respecting their previous public-option ultimatums—ultimatums originally supported by many of the same groups now demanding retreat.
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Soon it’s on to false choices. Democrats tell their base that any bill is better than no bill, even one making things worse, and that if this particular legislation doesn’t pass, Republicans will win the upcoming election—as if signing a blank check to insurance and drug companies couldn’t seal that fate. They tell everyone else that “realistically” this is the “last chance” for reform, expecting We the Sheeple to forget that those spewing the do-or-die warnings control the legislative calendar and could immediately try again.
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Predictably, the fear-mongering prompts left-leaning Establishment pundits to bless the bill, giving Democratic activists concise-yet-mindless conversation-enders for why everyone should shut up and fall in line (“Krugman supports it!”). Such bumper-sticker mottoes are then demagogued by Democratic media bobbleheads and their sycophants, who dishonestly imply that the bill’s progressive opponents (1) secretly aim to aid the far right and/or (2) actually hope more Americans die for lack of health care. In the process, the legislation’s sellouts are lambasted as the exclusive fault of Republicans, not Democrats and their congressional majorities.
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Earth sufficiently scorched, President Obama then barnstorms the country, calling the bill a victory for “ordinary working folks” over the same corporations he is privately promising to enrich. The insurance industry, of course, airs token ads to buttress Obama’s “victory” charade—at the same time its lobbyists are, according to Politico, celebrating with chants of “We win!”
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By design, pro-public-option outfits like Firedoglake and the Progressive Change Campaign Committee end up depicted as voices of the minority, even as they champion an initiative that polls show the majority of voters supports. Meanwhile, telling questions hang: If this represents victory over special interests, why is Politico reporting that “drug industry lobbyists have huddled with Democratic staffers” to help pass the bill? How is the legislation a first step to reform, as proponents argue, if it financially and politically strengthens insurance and drug companies opposing true change? And what prevents those companies from continuing to increase prices?
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These queries go unaddressed—and often unasked. Why? Because their answers threaten to expose the robbery in progress, circumvent the “What’s the Matter With Kansas?” contemplation and raise the most uncomfortable question of all:
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What’s the matter with Democrats?

The real question should be:
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What’s the matter with liberals?

So there is no bill that would both (a) make progressives happy and (b) pass in Congress.

The idea that progressives will gain power by striking fear into the hearts of centrists is to me absurd. Do you think Jane Hamsher has more clout with the party now that’s she’s buddied up with Grover Norquist? Her whole crew has deformed into a bizarro RedState, sitting at their keyboards typing names into an enemies list. Being an obnoxious bully only works within the right wing, because the right wing appeals to authoritarians. I believe if the left adopts the windowless intransigence of the right, we become ridiculous and impotent. Yeah, you get more with a kind word and a gun than you do with just a kind word, but only if you’re willing to cavalierly use the gun. If not, then you get more with a gun and a kind word than you do with just a gun.

You could have saved us all a lot of typing if you’d posted that an hour ago.

Stuart, you are probably correct in your assessment of our differences. I also think if this bill failed, we would not get another chance in my sentient lifetime. At least this is a starting point to fight from.

I think that sums it up.

No, the debate here is actually way more interesting than almost anywhere else. But it seems to come down to those who think the bill is a net negative and those who think it’s a net positive.
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And — I’d love to see the Left have more voice in the party. This thing where we have a center-right party and a crazy-right party is not healthy. I don’t think staying home on election day is the way to accomplish it. But I don’t know what will accomplish it.

“We” never got a chance.
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Third Way think tanks got a chance to enact their policy.
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It’s a starting point to fight from, alright.

Stuart,

I think we’ve been through this before already, but, I agree with others that this is incremental change.

What I feared is that if we didn’t get this passed – even health care lite – then we would have a repeat of 1994 when the Gingrich that stole Christmas was speaker and took out his contract on America.

So many Americans just split the baby when they vote. If Democrats do not deliver everything (which is common, unfortunately) they split their ticket voting for Republicans for the house and Senate. When they discover what Republicans really want to do to this country as they finally noticed in 2006, they voted for Democrats.

Democrats got SOMETHING accomplished.

Unfortunately, this is SHOCKINGLY GOOD NEWS.

I don’t think any progressives are threatening violence. They are just saying to the Democrats if you freeze us out of policy don’t assume the vote will still be there, because it won’t. I’ll vote for a goat before I vote for another Democrat.

If we on the left fight amongst ourselves instead of making common cause, the right’s shock troops of crazy will continue shoving the forum further into crazy land. We need to recognize progress when we see it. Twenty years ago, gay marriage in America was unthinkable, in another twenty it will be the norm. Where would we be if “progressives” had scuttled the first civil rights laws for gays because they didn’t go far enough?

Damn, I hope they don’t vote between 10:00 and 11:00.

Third party Candidates:

John Anderson – break off of the Democrats 1980
Republican victory.

Ross Perot – break off of the Republicans 1992 & 1996
Democratic victory.

Ralph Nader – Break off of the Democrats 2000 & 2004
Victory for the Republicans

TEA PARTY! TEA PARTY!

When – not if – the Tea Party starts it’s own right wing campaign splitting Republicans between the heartless and seeking from the Tea party the brainless, we will see huge Democratic victories.

DO NOT SPLIT DEMOCRATIC VOTES. Just ask Al Gore why not.

Gee, I didn’t mean a real gun.
I have the advantage of having a decent representative in Congress, but if you’re not so fortunate, there’s a movement beginning to primary unsatisfactory incumbents — Saltonstall and Halter are two challengers worth supporting.

patricksartor:
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Thanks so much for spacing your commentary for readability, it’s appreciated.
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I think we’ve been through this before already, but some Democrats want different things for the country than other Democrats.
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Those other Democrats subscribe to a kind of political philosophy that’s different from liberalism.
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Those other Democrats got a lot more than “SOMETHING” accomplished, they got almost everything they think is good policy accomplished. This is what they’ve been advocating for many years.
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Joe Klein is one of those other Democrats, and his problem with the bill isn’t that it’s too liberal or not too liberal, it’s that it’s not Third Way enough. He, too, says that it’s “incremental”, but he doesn’t mean that it’s a step in the direction of liberal health care policy, he means that he accepts the reality that New Democrats couldn’t restructure Medicare to go through the private exchanges.
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The question is not whether or not some liberal policy is better than nothing, it’s whether or not the country can afford to go down the Third Way health care route, and whether or not we can stop New Democrats from finishing the accomplishment of their objectives before they do the health care equivalent of Gramm-Leach-Bliley. This isn’t incomplete liberal policy, it’s incomplete Third Way policy.
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Either incomplete Third Way health care policy is better than the status quo, or it’s not.
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The political argument over whether we would repeat 1994 is a different story. If your overriding goal is to keep the Democrats we have in power, then worrying about 1994 makes some sense, especially if you believe that there’s no possible political way to enact rational policy that starts to solve the nation’s health care problems for everyone. That’s a pretty decent argument to make, given how badly liberals were exploited and abused during this process.
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It should be understood, though, that, at this point in time, the price of keeping the Democrats we have in power is allowing them to enact Third Way policy, which means more TARP-style financial policy, more FISA “modernization” security-state policy, more escalation and entrenchment of occupation foreign policy, the continuance of pro-globalization economic policy, and the deliberate erosion of small-d democratic power and policies generally. That’s the “SOMETHING” that we’re in for.
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Given those policy choices, some people don’t place so much importance in avoiding another 1994, as much as avoiding another 1999 (Gramm-Leach-Bliley), as the latter was so much worse for the country than even the former.
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So I really hope that all made sense to you: this isn’t “liberal health care-lite,” this is a strong, solid start of a Third Way health care policy regime that ends with seniors in an exchange buying their policies individually, widow by widow. I wasn’t expecting Democrats to deliver “everything,” but I didn’t necessarily expect liberal Democrats (“some Democrats”) to deliver center-right health care policy for New Democrats (“other Democrats”).
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Thanks so much for reading and considering this, patricksartor.

You mean to ask what if we had “scuttled” Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, for example?
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You tell me.
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Where would we be?

The party is willing to cut a deal with every faction in the coalition, except for one, the Left. Then they have the nerve to demand the Left not desert them, after they just finished abandoning the Left. There is no need for the Left to be stupid any longer. They have nothing to lose if Democrats lose.

Every other time I write it deletes the spaces between the lines I leave in there.

That’s why it was sooooo annoying when we had the minor exchange about spacing.

I hope the spaces I put in do not get randomly deleted.

Did time hire the same company to manage this blog as the one who does Rush Limbaugh’s?

If so, that would explain everything.

It deleted my spaces between paragraphs!!!!!

They were their in the preview, I swear.

Well, we wouldn’t be working to get rid of DADT, would we? And when it’s gone gays will be able to serve openly — it won’t be replaced by ban against them from serving, not even if Virginia Foxx is president.

I believe that centrists can be won over by success.

I believe that this is one small step for health care and one giant leap for the willingness of Americans to let the government protect them from profiteering by health insurers.

The Democrats we have in office will bend towards progressives and away from being blue dogs little by little.

My own favorite health care system is not France or England, but Germany with competing NON-PROFIT health insurers.

Within limitations (as in not gouging) competition could do health care a favor.

Maybe here we could have a Federal Public option, one in each state and one for every city or county with one hundred thousand people or more.

That would be competition, but, that would not involve gouging.

It would, also, fulfill a claim I can comprehend on the part of Republicans (but do not identify with) that it would be great if the person in charge of government issues were your mayor or somebody you know personally. That way, when you don’t get what you want, you can insult him publicly at the local grocery store.

I agree that health care is a public good and should not be used as a means for a profit, but, it will take time.

Hmmm…”bend toward progressives”?
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LOL
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Well, let us agree on the German system being the best model for the US.
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At this time, I agree with you on that, at least.

That’s a very interesting way to look at DADT.

patricksartor, the problem is that the wretched software acts differently depending on which you are doing – making an original comment (spaces left in) or replying to someone’s comment (spaces you see in preview sucked out.)
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When they switched to WordPress after the great pre-primary crash, it took a while for us to figure this out. We asked for help, but it seems it’s a feature.
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I hope that explains why what you see is not always what you get. I notice most of your comments tend to be in Reply to, therefore the spaces disappear (unless a character is inserted.) Pain in the neck, but that’s the way it is.
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Hope that helps.

At last!

Let me put it to you this way:

Sometime between 1944 and 1948 when my grandfather died, according to my father, he told my then teenage father “Tommy, you like ships. See here, on the new quarter there is a picture of a US destroyer.”

It was a quarter with FDR on it.

Today – far more than four years after FDRs death – “progressive” and “socialist” ideas about unemployment insurance, welfare and the like are not even on the table for conservatives to slash and burn.

LBJ created medicare and medicaid. Nobody is seriously considering getting rid of them.

Over time, progressive BECOMES the center.

We will have to wait another half dozen years or more before we really move towards single payer.

So, if you had told my grandparents that all of the reforms of Roosevelt and Truman would someday become mainstream, they would have laughed.

The “third way” will eventually be called “the right wing”.

For one thing, it was about proving that the Catholic Bishops control the uterus of every poor woman in America.

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Ha! Did you just write that? Seriously, did he write that, people? Oh, man, I wish I could see your face, Shep. You had to have been cracking up while writing that Catholics have any influence whatsoever in the US. Shit, man, that’s almost as absurd as suggesting we have influence in Britian. Go sell that bullshit somewhere else.

For one thing, it was about proving that the Catholic Bishops control the uterus of every poor woman in America.

Ha! Did you just write that? Seriously, did he write that, people? Oh, man, I wish I could see your face, Shep. You had to have been cracking up while writing that Catholics have any influence whatsoever in the US. Sh*t, man, that’s almost as absurd as suggesting we have influence in Britian. Go sell that bullsh*t somewhere else.

“Given those policy choices, some people don’t place so much importance in avoiding another 1994, as much as avoiding another 1999 (Gramm-Leach-Bliley), as the latter was so much worse for the country than even the former.”
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But we didn’t avoid Gramm-Leach-Bliley because Bill Clinton was the most liberal choice available, (unless you think Papa Bush or Bob Dole would have done something better). You’re going to have to face the facts about your fellow countrymen: these politicians don’t put themselves in office. We’ve met the enemy and we’re going to have to change “them” before we have better choices than between third-way centrist corporatists or right-wing authoritarian corporatists. The fact is, we’ll have to defeat “conservative” anti-government, pro-market dogma in the public mind before they’ll elect true progressive leadership.
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I understand that you believe the best way to do that is to show them the effectiveness of progressive policies – I agree – but you must realize by now, especially now, that it’s not going to happen that way.

Shep, facts faced re: fellow citizens. And, as always, I agree with your dogmatic thesis. But the corporate-gov’t merger that the dems have been pushing for nearly 20 years now complicates this would-be clarity you envision, doesn’t it?
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I mean if what conservatives have come to be (i.e. crazy dedicated to ending gov’t as we know it) is juxtaposed only with Obama’s DLC ways, how in the world do you think “they” are going to become enlightened?
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Shorter me, without progressive delivery on promises, without liberal fixes to conservative ailments, “they” will never understand that we have the solutions. It’s a perpetual repeating cycle of center-right, center-right. MSM-the pols-their sponsors an axis of evil and stasis. I understand that SZ or I might appear a trifle naive to think progressive policy will come to pass, but imagining that we’re going to progress any other way seems equally baffling.

shep, JC:
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You’re both right; we need to figure this out.
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Soon…

“It’s a perpetual repeating cycle of center-right, center-right. MSM-the pols-their sponsors an axis of evil and stasis.”
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A true conundrum. At least now we have the intertubes.
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In any event, as long as we still elect our leaders it is we who must be fixed – the fault lies not in our (political) stars… – before we can have the leaders we need (which is another conundrum, I know). Anyway, we’ve done it before so it’s possible. A confused, fearful, conflicted people electing enlightened progressive leadership, not so much.

It’s a true conundrum. At least now we have the intertubes.
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In any event, as long as we still elect our leaders it is we who must be fixed – the fault lies not in our (political) stars… – before we can have the leaders we need (which is another conundrum, I know). Anyway, we’ve done it before so it’s possible. A confused, fearful, conflicted people electing enlightened progressive leadership, not so much.

They moving to a compound in Idaho?

What entity created the intertubes (internet)?

It was created by the Department of Defense so that, instead of having people cross the country with top secret information handcuffed to them in a suitcase, they could transmit information pas potential Soviet agents.

Ask any economist and I am sure that they will tell you that there would have never been an internet without the federal government inventing it.

There, also, would not have been a post office.

I’d like to see conservatives communicate without the mail, internet or the heavily government regulated telephone system. They would have to use carrier pigeon or smoke signals to communicate.

Come on Republicans, show us that everything works better without the government! Run your campaigns by pigeon!