The Nuns V. The Bishops

I am with the Nuns.

KT:

[The nuns'] letter says that “despite false claims to the contrary, the Senate bill will not provide taxpayer funding for elective abortions.”

Is that claim true or false?
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Who’s lying?
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The nuns or the bishops?

KT, thanks / props for picking this up. Are you and Amy working the tweets, facebook, emails, and even the …phone… to get on-record interviews? If the nuns are teachers, the nuns will win, the rulers have decided. Easy call for the nuns.
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I’m curious: how long have you worked on this or is this an “on the fly” quickie post? apr recently posted a comment (first mention) and I found / read w WSJ blog link right after apr’s remark.
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http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/17/re-rock-bottom/comment-page-1/#comment-146418

I’m glad to see this happen. One of my best friends in the world is a Catholic nun and it’s been enlightening spending time with her and other nuns in her order. The general consensus amongst them is that most of the nuns’ beliefs diverge from official church doctrine on many women’s issues, abortion rights included. It’s not often you see the nuns get together and publicly disagree with church leadership so when it does happen you know they’re serious.

…which side would you put your money on to prevail?

The Bishops, who unfortunately have the final word. Nuns have no real authority in the church, despite what someone’s experiences in school might have been.

It’s great, ‘tho, to hear that the Sisters are disagreeing publicly with their male counterparts. Hopefully the Church will consider the optics before removing them for disobedience.

KT:

Who has the ruler , or for those steeped in even more catholic school tradition – who has the cane ?

Looks like they want a visit from the Vatican
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http://www.cleveland.com/world/index.ssf/2009/04/vatican_investigates_doctrinal.html

Just simply based on the fact that this bill contains a “subsidy”, which is Government money, the Nuns are lying. It is a shame, I always had respect for those who would give up their lives to attend to the needs of the poor, sick, frail and beat kids with a ruler for almost no reason at all.
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But, hands down, Sr Mary Catherine Knowitall has told a lie. She has broken the commandment from God, “Thou shalt not lie”. I guess hades will have all sorts of fun with them now.

By calling nuns liars, and claiming that the Sisters in Christ are now going to hell, you’ve really made my day, Rustyblog.
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Thank you.

The nuns, unlike liberals apparently, are fallible.

One isn’t immediately condemned to hell for lying, if that is the case the entire Kennedy family would spontaneously combust! !

The lying part is part of the 9th C. specifically addressing bearing false witness against neighbors, not just lying in general. re: lying nuns, if they’re going to Hell per rusty’s edict, must they wear red leather instead of black robes? Inquisitive minds….

I’ll take the nuns and two points. If any of the refs are former altar boys, the cardinals are toast.

The “Sisters in Christ” went to hell a long time ago Mr Zilchman. When I worked in a Catholic Hospital many years ago, I told a few of them myself to “go to hell”.
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LOL@freeinpa.
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Ooops. Bishops.

Somebody tell me where in the Bible does it state that only men can run the show and that church leaders can’t get married?

I’ll take the child-beaters over the child-rapists, I guess.

I used to date a nun. It was really just a woman I had dress up as a nun but she did make me cry “Oh God!” a few times.

…”if they’re going to Hell per rusty’s edict, must they wear red leather instead of black robes? Inquisitive minds….”

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Put them in a pair of butt-less leather chaps for all I care and sell them to the Hell’s Angels. But, they lied in their “letter”. That is the truth.

Put them in a pair of butt-less leather chaps for all I care and sell them to the Hell’s Angels.

Where O where could your fellow conservative neorationalist86 have gone?

Rusty, you get props for your imagination, congrats. More of that here please instead of your political rants. I’m pondering the swampwomen’s reaction to your Hells Angels fantasy. The Hells Angels don’t use an apostrophe in their name, btw, check their website.

I live across the street from the NY headquarters of the Hells Angels, and I can tell you right now they have no use for nuns in “butt-less leather chaps.”

Speaking of damnation, this thread has already descended into Hell.

Are you proud, KT? Have you not been paying attention to your colleague Amy Sullivan? She has learned many lessons here in the Swamp, namely that any post on any topic even remotely connected to the Catholic Church will inevitably descend into a pissing contest with progressives and conservatives alike seeking to outdo one another in the their levels of vulgar bigotry. Currently, Newfreedomblog and hellslittlestangel are neck in neck. Though, rest assured, KT, more are coming to this gaping hellhole of a party.

Sacredh and I are here! If you’re a card-carrying member of the Hells Angels I duly apologize. But only if.

I thought that movement conservatives were supposedly so much more respectful of people of faith (other than Muslims, obviously) than awful, godless, satanic, communist-fascist liberals, that they would never, ever in a million years wish for Sisters in Christ to be dressed in fetishwear, and then sold into biker-gang slavery.
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And so I’m proven wrong again, apparently.

The bishops have the power, the money, and the bully pulpit.

The nuns has the moral and ethical high ground.

Stuart, that must be fun to live near them. Or is it no big deal / they just do their own thing and everyone leave each other alone?

SZ~
If by movement conservatives you mean backwater, rapture adoring Protestants. Then, yes, you’ve been proven wrong. Their bigotry meter is only rivaled by the likes of the selective-tolarance wing of the progressives.

Ouch…*selective-tolerance…
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This is America, after all, Stuart. Nearly every faction of the American populace holds some form of irrational prejudice. We just don’t talk about it out in the open.

I’m looking at what I just wrote…and I can’t believe it.
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Did I just write the accurate description “wish for Sisters in Christ to be dressed in fetishwear, and then sold into biker-gang slavery“?
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Did I just write that?

deconstructiva:
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It’s usually no big deal, but every so often, I come home and the entire block is sealed off by about three dozen swat team members with automatic weapons, and there are helicopters hovering overhead, because they’ve gotten into another standoff.
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Also…well, there are numerous stories I could tell you, actually.
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But it’s also no big deal, too.

The nuns have the moral and ethical high ground.
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Exactly.

…yes you did, thanks. Sacredh can’t do the heavy lifting around here. KT may now see you in a new light.

Well, you certainly wrote it. Yes. I’m inclined to think that you may be, shall I say, selective in your alleged shock, though. I’m not seeing much coming from you in regards to the other provocative comments this evening. I know, I know, we should be quite accustomed to these vitriolic sentiments by now from the Swampland commentariat, by somehow I still need a brief repreive while I go vomit. Excuse me.

…spell check is NOT my frend. That’s “Sacredh can’t do all the heavy lifting…” (channeling inner rusty). He definitely can do the heavy lifting and I’m trying too but it’s only fair to help him out, so thanks for your literotica. Besides, rusty started it.

I can tell you right now they have no use for nuns in “butt-less leather chaps.”

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There goes dinner.

I thought Amy’s posts were the ones that normally morph into “something else”, not KT’s. Will this post reach 674+ comments like Amy’s Beckistan post? It’s still growing. Will Amy (or KT?) join “The 700 Club”?

Politicians that agree with the bishops will use them as cover and as a basis for attacks. Politicians that agree with the nuns will use them as cover and as a basis for attacks. The winner will have nothing whatsoever to do with the nuns nor the bishops.

Here’s an interesting observation. Despite all the anti-Catholic lunacy going on in here, I’ve yet to hear a single progressive denounce these nuns for trying to “make law.” Where are all your cries of indignation at these tax-exempt nuns trying to influence policy? Hmm. I want a 500 page dissertation from each of you on the distinguishing factors that suggest it is appropriate to cut the tax-exemption status of the Catholic Church when the USCCB publicly opposes this health-insurance bill, and not appropriate or necessary when a group of nuns organize themselves in favor of this bill. On my desk, tomorrow, 8am.

I see that you have returned from the vomitorium, neorationalist86.

Indeed I have. So, as our resident academic, what say you, Stuart Zechman? Is there a difference, in terms of the admissibility of religious-based “lobbying,” between what these nuns have done and what the USCCB has done? If so, please explain. If not, why all the silence from those who are usually more than willing to offer up criticism of anything Catholic?

Rusty, All that is fine. But pray, tell us why are you hawking survival seeds on your blog? Is Satan going to take over the world soon? LOL
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But thats ok, What had me ROFL was the following:
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” is a graduate of The American University, Washington, D.C. Having earned a Bachelor of Science Degree in Political Science, and a lifelong pursuit of history, permits him to comment and blog accurately on current issues facing this great Nation. Rod has a full understanding of, and fact based knowledge of the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and the intentions of the Founding Fathers of this great Nation. ”
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So, If I had a Master’s Degree in political science, can I legimately ask you to STFU?

How will I survive when I go on vacation and Time magazine will not let me read the comments of Swampland on my cell phone?

Exiled: It’s simple. The USCCB has a lobbying arm to directly influence the Congress. I don’t think the nuns do. If they do, tell us who it is, please, or tell us the name of their motorcycle club.
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They even say so openly (but you already know this, right?):

USCCB Government Relations (GR) represents the USCCB before the U.S. Congress on public policy issues of concern to the bishops. GR coordinates and directs the legislative activities of the USCCB staff and other church personnel to influence the actions of the Congress. A specific set of issues is assigned to each congressional liaison staff person, who in turn, works in collaboration with particular policy departments at the USCCB. For a current list of GR congressional liaison staff and their respective areas of responsibility,

http://www.usccb.org/ogr/

…can you bring a laptop?

I do not have one and it would not be good on this trip.
I am hoping if we keep saying we need comments on the cell phones they might let us access them.

I’m with the BVM and the nuns who should be at the helm but were run out of town by power hungry men and their fellow child molesters. They are a bell-weather of the larger society, take the pulse of familys, know that educating a woman will educate the family,and really fight for social justice.

Mother earth and the sisters all the way. Give me that really old-time religion!

Okay. So…

Ok, so the USCCB is more formal in its lobbying efforts, but lobbying is lobbying, no matter how informal and disorganized. The formality of the USCCB’s lobbying efforts is not the distinguishing factor, Decon, and you know this. If it were simply a matter of formality, then progressives would be clamoring about the tax-exempt Planned Parenthood Action Fund, the very formal lobbying wing of Planned Parenthood. No, Decon, we both know that it simply boils down to political agendas. Dislike what the USCCBs has to say, cut their exemption status! Pleased with what the Sisters in Christ and Planned Parenthood have to say, more power to to them! No shame. No consistency. Only agendas. Please don’t insult my intelligence with your claims of formalities.

No one was run out of town. It was this way from the beginning. It’s not a matter of exclusion, it’s a matter of symbolism. Christ, as you well know, did not have any female Apostles surrounding him. The priesthood is modeled after the Apostles. There is nothing odd or insulting about that. Women play a vital role in the Catholic Church, not merely though holy orders, but as the very foundation of the lay community. If you spent any time at all around Catholic Churches ( I know, icky, right?) you’d be well aware of the involved commitment of our women.
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Secondly, the Church in no way advocates for second-class status for women. Education is a mainstay of Catholic doctrine. Catholicim is the most academic and intellectual of any Christian denomination. 2000 years of theology has created a vibrant academic atmosphere in the Church. The very same Church that brought us the university system as we now know it. Even her most vehement detractors acknowledge the profound education of the Catholic clergy and holy orders, including nuns.
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As for your vile smear of all Catholic men, I will not dignify that with a response. I will however pray for your clearly misguided soul. Forgive him, Father, for he knows not what he says.

Form matters, exiled, and if your intelligence is not so easily insulted you already know this. Formal lobbyists have more influence on Congress than you or I do individually. The Senate HCR debacle alone proved this. And where are Baucus’ ex-staffers going to work? For lobbies. Large groups of individuals driven by a web campaign might have influence, but daily K Street influence is a big issue. There are good or at least benign lobbies (AAA and trade groups like engineers and librarians), and there are those who aren’t.
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I don’t think the USCCB is evil so don’t assume I feel that way, just acknowledge their formal role and treat them equally as all other lobbyists, no more or less. Or are YOU saying they deserve special treatment? Why? Why should the USCBB treated differently from AAA? Should bishops get special treatment over librarians? (I’m logging out but carry on; I’m really interested in your defense of the bishops)

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/02/us/02nuns.html
This is what American nuns are facing now thanks to the Vatican’s fear of their independence. I posted it earlier. I think the article points how difficult it is for the nuns to take a stand in opposition to the bishops.
Good for them.

Thus has it always been in the Catholic church.
Because of the child abuse settlements the church is raising money by burdening local dioceases. Here in California they had elderly nuns move from a house they used for caring for each other so they could sell it. Meanwhile the Bishop stayed in his home and priests kept their rectories.
One of the reasons I left the church was because of their utter disrespect for women. It is the old madonna or whore freudian syndrome lived out everyday in the church.
I think in this case the nuns will win.

Decon~
I was not suggesting that formality and organization do not influence the effectiveness of lobbying. In other words, I acknowledge that the USCCB holds more sway than do these nuns. But, this is not a matter of influence or effect, it’s a matter of classification. Are the nuns lobbying, nevermind their effectiveness? I believe we can all agree that their actions fall within the penumbra of lobbying activity. Therefore, my question is why do those who normally lambaste Catholic lobbying efforts remain so quiet on this issue? The answer: because the nuns’ lobbying efforts align with the agenda of those who would otherwise criticize.
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As for your question about special treatment, I don’t think that the USSCB gets special treatment. Sure, the Catholic Church, as the nation’s largest charitable organization, definitely gets tax benefits. However, the lobbying efforts of the USSCB are anomalous from the broader Church’s non-profit status. Planned Parenthood, another non-profit, tax-exempted institution, engages in extensive formal lobbying. Would you question its special treatment?

The misogynist right posters strike again. Let’s see, according to your ilk it is ok to call women c**nts, to accuse Pelosi of being a whore and now demeaning NUNS? Do you all have a problem with women?

maverick, Colbert had a great take on “survival seeds”
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/267141/march-10-2010/survival-seed-bank
It really puts the craziness in place.
Chart with no numbers or data points
Crisis garden for the end times
Really hysterically funny.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/267141/march-10-2010/survival-seed-bank
Exiled, I am posting this one more time. This is what happens to uppity nuns. The bishops have had a problem with the nuns being to independent since Vatican II.
If you don’t understand the hierarchy of the church and how it degrades women, you haven’t been very observant.

Form matters, depending on the question, but I suspect that you would be in favor of revoking the tax exemption of the churches of candidate-endorsing pastors.

yoshia: I personally like to have all church tax exemptions removed.

apr~
You have an axe to grind because you, like a great many others, are of the opinion that the Church should reflect society in matters of equality of structure. This is understandable. However, I must stress the unique nation of the Catholic Church, as oppsed to a national society. In a country, for example, where membership is obligatory unless one physically removes himself or herself, it is improper to exclude anyone from leadership positions based on creed, ethnicity, or gender. In a much more intangible society, such as a global religion, where membership is of free-will, then there is nothing unordinary about having a more restricted concept of hierarchy. With that said, as I have already noted, women are not excluded, far from it. They constitute the foundation of the Church.
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As for independence, the American nuns were not vetted because of their feminine nature, but rather, simply their independence. If you deviate from doctrine, you must be reined in. It matters not if you are a religious order of nuns or the US Conference of Catholic Bishops. The Vatican has rebuked individual diocese as well as the USCCB on numerous occasions. The Vatican’s opposition is to dissidence, not women.

Exiled I have no axe to grind. I have no bitterness. I don’t expect the Church to accept my point of view. However, they are destroying their relevancy.
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In 2004, now Pope Benedict, wrote a vatican document urging women to be submissive partners. How can you be a partner, if you are submissive? He said women should cultivate listening, humility, and waiting. They should not be adverserial to men.
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Saying that women are the foundation of the Church is like saying that the housewife is the foundation of the home. Condescending.
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I did not say the American nuns were being investigated because of their feminine nature. It is because of their independence. Of course, the complication is that they are female.
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The Pope has been able to pardon a holacaust denier prelate. He has been compliant in covering the pedophiles in his Church. The preceding Pope said women can’t be priests because they weren’t made in the image of God. It is clear women are second class members of the Church.
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The goal of the current hierarchy is to rescind all of the progress of Vatican II. It was (that awful word) too liberal. However, the average age of nuns is 70 years. The Church is losing men with priestly vocations. Could it be because they have lost their way and lost the words of Jesus. They have become proud, greedy, and worshipers of power.

neorationalist86:
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as our resident academic
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Whoah, wait a second…
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I’m a guitar player, dude.
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I’m no academic!

KT the Nuns absolutely correct, Having my bottom and my knuckles cracked in school I have a lot of respect for them.
.I loved when the played marbles with me and took my cat’s eye shooters, and I love it when they tell the Bishops where they should stand. GO Sisters!

Exiled: I live less than a half of a mile away from a MASSIVE nunnery/convent. It sits in the middle of over 30 acres out here in the country. Being a part of a small community, I run into them frequently. It may be hard to believe, but i get along with them very well and have even taken a group of them on a tour where I work. Last year I ran into several when we were donating blood at the Red Cross. I offered to take them all out for a beer when we were finished. They declined but got a good laugh out of it.

Sorry SZ, but you are the resident academic. We post comments. You write books and post links. You’ve been drafted dude.

sacred: That’s one of those priest/nun differences. When I was in college I helped out at the church and through the Newman Club became quite friendly with the priests. I would visit them at the rectory. Their fridge was always well stocked with liquor. It wasn’t sacramental.
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They were funny though. Going through some Catholic guilt, I would confess some of my wicked ways to them. They just told me to behave myself. I saved my really wicked confessions for an elderly German priest and the confessional box. He could never hear what I was saying. My penance was always 3 Hail Marys and 3 Out Fathers.
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Mein Gott, I will probably pay for that later. Mea Culpa.

apr2563: I get along with just about everybody. I also make fun of just about everybody. Some of the nuns jog by my house during the warm weather months. They’ll stop and talk about our flower gardens unless I’m not wearing much. If I’m just wearing tennis shoes and cut-offs, they don’t stop.

To date the Bishops truth telling has been suspect. So I vote with the nuns.

The bishops are politicians and modern-day Catholic versions of the Pharisees.
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They wouldn’t be in their positions if they weren’t willing to defend the “official” position (whatever THAT is).

I DO wonder, though, whose opinion matters more to the average Catholic on the street – the nuns or the Bishops?
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Maybe the nuns don’t have ultimate power over decision-making, but I have to believe that, given the fragmentation of opinions inside the church, the Bishops may win the policy-decision war, but cause many to vote against their opinion as an act of defiance over their high-handedness and lack of moral oversight regarding the abuse scandals.
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After all, the Bishops won’t have actually access to the ballot boxes to see how individuals voted.

I went to parochial schools and never had a nun beat me. There was one who could hit you with a eraser at 30 feet. Seriously, I went to parochial and public schools. The only time I so corporal punishment was at a public school. Hopefully, that has stopped.

SZ~
I meant no dispresect, nor was I being literal. Your commentary, though, is academic in nature. Let’s face it, SZ, perhaps you’re now Stabbing Eastward, that is, towards east coast academia.