Re: And Here We Go…

Jay, I’m a bit mystified by this assertion from former Rules Committee Chairman David Dreier in your post:

Dreier, though, defended his record saying there’s a big difference between self-executing amendments and self-enacting large pieces of legislation.

As I noted earlier, when the Republicans were running the House, Dreier himself was pretty aggressive with self-executing rules. Here’s how Don Wolfensberger, former staff director of the Rules Committee, described what he called “the mother of all self-executing rules” (my emphasis added):

On April 26, the Rules Committee served up the mother of all self-executing rules for the lobby/ethics reform bill. The committee hit the trifecta with not one, not two, but three self-executing provisions in the same special rule. The first trigger was a double whammy: “In lieu of the amendments recommended by the Committees on the Judiciary, Rules, and Government Reform now printed in the bill, the amendment in the nature of a substitute consisting of the text of the Rules Committee Print dated April 21, 2006, modified by the amendment printed in part A of the report of the Committee on Rules accompanying this resolution, shall be considered as adopted in the House and the Committee of the Whole.”

The substitute submitted by the Rules Committee did not combine all the amendments adopted by the three reporting committees, as is customarily done. Instead, it deleted two amendments adopted by the Judiciary Committee that would have required disclosure of lobbyists’ contacts with Members and staff, and lobbyists’ solicitation and transmission of campaign contributions to candidates.

It then further amended its own substitute by automatically deleting a third Judiciary amendment requiring a Government Accountability Office study of lobbyist employment contracts.

The third self-executing provision occurs at the end of the special rule and states: “In the engrossment of H.R. 4975, the Clerk shall … add the text of H.R. 513, as passed by the House, as new matter at the end of H.R. 4975.” In other words, the Clerk was authorized to add as an amendment an entire separate bill, in this case, the House-passed legislation regulating Section 527 political committees, and thereby put that issue into conference with the Senate (which has no comparable provision in its bill).

That does indeed sound like enacting a large piece of legislation through a self-executing rule. As Wolfensberger argued, it’s not a great way to do the people’s business. But it’s hardly unprecedented.

UPDATE: As I noted in the comments section, when these guys airbrush their own records (and we’ve seen some of that on both sides here), I am often reminded of the famous Oscar Levant quote: “I knew Doris Day before she was a virgin.”

Related Topics: david dreier, hypocrisy, Congress, Health Care
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  • Ivy_B

    The Repubs seem to have erased all history from their brains, replacing with histrionics.

  • deconstructiva

    Uh oh. No fighting KT and Jay, please, group hug. Do you two need a beer and a Brooks photo op? I don’t know who plays Obama’s referee role, but it can’t be me (I don’t live close to DC). That’s a rare photo I do NOT want to see in “1000 words.”

  • kbanginmotown

    Hair pulling, shin kicking…oh, the humanity!

  • stuartzechman

    Isn’t it great that these reporters can openly disagree about a procedural matter of fact in a public forum, deconstructiva?
    .
    Don’t you want to encourage that?
    .
    Shouldn’t we be the beneficiaries of a transparent debate between experts in real time?

  • deconstructiva

    First you criticize me for praising Amy this morning and calling my positions “weirdly”, now this. What’s next?

  • http://fourlegsrgood.wordpress.com fourlegsgood

    Republican revisionist history? the old “IOKIYAR” thing?

    Say it ain’t so!!!

    They seem to think that if they pretend it didn’t happen, then it will change the past.

  • incandenzah

    Thanks to KT for noting this. It’s exactly this kind of contextual stuff that today’s media tends to fall down on. Just because a famous congresscritter says it’s so, doesn’t mean it’s true. Without context, it’s stenography.

    What I’d really like to see is more actual push-back from reporters *during* the interview. I mean, why didn’t Jay ask Dreier if he had ever done the same thing? Seems like a natural question, given how slippery politicians can be. But then, I’m not a reporter for TIME.

    (And, heck, at least Jay named her source… that counts for a lot!)

  • jcapan

    “I find it odd that when it’s down to Joe Lieberman’s one vote, everybody shrugs their shoulders and says ‘oh well, we just have to write the bill Joe wants, because what can you do, one vote.’ And when it’s Dennis Kucinich’s one vote, which represents what 80% of the American people want, it’s “lets crush Dennis Kucinich so we can give Joe Lieberman everything he wants.” Somehow the argument keeps switching so that the corrupt deal that the White House negotiated with the pharmaceutical companies gets passed no matter what.”

    Jane Hamsher

  • Professor

    “What I’d really like to see is more actual push-back from reporters *during* the interview. I mean, why didn’t Jay ask Dreier if he had ever done the same thing?”

    While I don’t want to pick on just Jay, I will say that I agree with you on this! I get so frustrated watching commentary from both sides of these debates as there is a tendency for journalists to just let them get their talking points in without really challenging the histrionics.

  • http://www.ghostnote.com Cookie Puss

    Jane and the General Strike Brigade headed to DefCon 1?

  • deconstructiva

    kbang, that could apply to both Karen / Jay and stuart / me, alas. And it’s only Monday.

  • nflfoghorn

    Kucinich’s wife doesn’t work for big insurance companies. That’s the difference.

  • http://twitter.com/ktumulty Karen Tumulty

    My beef here is not with Jay. It’s with politicians who develop amnesia about their own records. These guys remind me of the famous Oscar Levant quote: “I knew Doris Day before she was a virgin.” (See update to my post.)

  • stuartzechman

    No, I asked you questions about your thoughts on journalism and the role of commentary in helping to define better standards for journalism:


    I’ve also noticed for a long time that you don’t seem to have the same issues as many people (myself included) with how the press corps operates, and that your criticisms seem weirdly absent ideas of how the press corps should operate better than it does.
    .
    Aren’t you evaluating these journos on their adherence to Beltway CW orthodoxy, or their devotion to prevailing narratives, or their use of obfuscating press corps conventions?
    .
    What are your criteria in judging a journo’s work?

    It seems strange to me that you’d be defensive about these questions, especially focusing on the mild use of the word “weirdly,” which I’ve gone on to explain meant no offense whatsoever, and which you can see is quite incidental to the question I was asking in good faith, summed up in “What are your criteria in judging a journo’s work?“.
    .
    Is there something wrong with my asking you these sorts of things?
    .
    If not, then what are your thoughts?
    .
    Don’t you want to encourage these sorts of transparent debates between the pro writers here regarding matters of fact?

  • shepherdwong

    “I’m a bit mystified by this assertion from former Rules Committee Chairman David Dreier…”
    .
    So what mystified you? Sure hope is wasn’t the lying, he’s been at that for quite some time now.
    .
    http://www.laweekly.com/2004-09-23/news/the-outing

  • deconstructiva

    KT, thanks for clearing that up. I doubted you two were really fighting, but things often can turn quickly. Witness the current disagreement between stuart and me (started at Adam’s post today) of which I don’t feel like fighting now. Stuart, if I offended you I apologize, but we just see things differently, esp. with Amy. Nothing’s wrong with that.

  • stuartzechman

    the current disagreement between stuart and me
    .
    There is no disagreement!
    .
    I’ve asked you honest questions about what leads you to your opinions, that’s all.
    .
    of which I don’t feel like fighting now
    .
    …and which you don’t have to fight at all, because these aren’t personal attacks, merely inquiries as to your thoughts…
    .
    Stuart, if I offended you I apologize
    .
    No need whatsoever for you to apologize in any way. I do not require an apology, I’m not offended, I really haven’t disagreed with you or attacked you or anything.
    .
    I’m having a hard time understanding why you think you’re being personally criticized, and I’m truly sorry for giving you that impression.
    .
    we just see things differently, esp. with Amy
    .
    Well, that’s obvious, there are certain aspects to her work which I find unproductive to national political discourse, for example. I’m trying to get at what you find specifically valuable about her work, because I don’t understand how you’re making your judgments.
    .
    Nothing’s wrong with that.
    .
    Of course not. Nobody said that there was. I just don’t understand why it is that you hold the opinions that you hold.
    .
    If you don’t want to talk about those things, that’s fine, just tell me that you don’t feel like answering those questions, and I’ll buzz right off. No problem, no hurt feelings, no nothing –perfectly fine.
    .
    What I wouldn’t like is for you to make a personal issue about asking you your opinions on journalism, as if I’ve done something wrong, unless you can explain to me how I’ve committed some offense (so I can not do it again). Apologizing to me as if I’m asking you these things because I’m somehow offended at you indicates that you don’t understand my intentions, which are benign.

  • jcapan

    SZ, agreed that your queries are completely innocuous, but you’re trying to have this debate, essentially about media criticism, with someone who simply doesn’t fancy the subject. Again, nothing wrong with that. It takes all kinds, and Decon’s less hostile stance vis a vis the Swamp “pros” could be viewed as refreshing.

  • stuartzechman

    JC:
    .
    someone who simply doesn’t fancy the subject
    .
    That’s what it is, you think? I’m obtuse sometimes.
    .
    I just can’t stand the idea that somebody thinks I’m attacking them when I’m not!
    .
    GAH

  • deconstructiva

    Stuart, I owe you an explanation, but however honest, it’s hard to explain. Hang on.

  • stuartzechman

    deconstructiva:
    .
    I don’t expect you to discuss anything if you’re uncomfortable, or unprepared or just plain not into it for whatever reason.
    .
    Just please don’t feel as if you need to apologize to me for anything, there’s absolutely nothing wrong.

  • deconstructiva

    No, it’s just hard to explain in detail, but I’ll try…. My “weirdly” reaction was too emotional, my fault / apologies. And that explains my journalism thoughts. I react more intuitively than logically here. Journalism is really a scientific process – gather / analyze stuff, check / re-check it, then report. But this process is easily corruptible (rather than broken). I think it’s always been this way – Hearst / Pulitzer yellow journalism, etc. – Cronkite is an exception (and even he had to fight CBS). We have to analyze news stories too and see bad examples daily (FOX, etc.). Gather facts and analyze, but what other intentions / hidden agendas are there?
    .
    I question FOX’s motives and see them as propaganda or crappy entertainment. I don’t trust or believe them. A Logical explanation achieves the same conclusion (their lies, distortions, omitted facts). The swamp reporters however, I do believe, errors and omitted stuff and bad spelling aside. I don’t question their motives. Otherwise I would not be here.
    .
    Take poor KT (sorry). If she questioned her faith in journalism would her fact-driven work be as good? Would she keep doing this? Yeah, it’s hard to explain an intuitive quality-driven reaction than a logical, checklist-driven one; that’s why it took awhile here / long reply. It’s easy to beat emotional people with logic in a debate, but if nothing changes, did we really win? Unless we’re just swapping chitchat, aren’t we trying to win them over somewhat and get things changed? Otherwise why bother?

  • deconstructiva

    But I now remember, this came up before, took awhile to find it –
    http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/11/12/whats-ahead-for-health-reform-in-the-senate/comment-page-1/#comment-109956 ….including this example on KT dropping names –

    If KT has to make the call on dropping names, so be it. To the point – do YOU trust Karen to make that call? I do. (or Amy, but I digress) Relying on ONE source without verifying is quite another matter. One of the few things I agreed with Reagan was his “trust but verify” motto. I think Karen, Jay, and yes, even Amy try to do this. I’ll cut them slack here.

    …hope this helps.

  • deconstructiva

    Here was my original short version: “Cutting to the chase: I trust and believe KT, Jay, Kate, and Amy’s work. I don’t with FOX. It’s ironic that fact-based journalism needs faith to succeed.” But more explanations were needed, thus the long version. KT, I hope this entire exchange wasn’t too eye-rolling.

  • deconstructiva

    …and finally, KT’s quote further down that Nov. thread (3.12)…

    I know that if I write something that is really off-base, my reputation will suffer. And ultimately, that reputation is all I have.

    …sorry again KT, but YOUR quote is much better than my long explanation. I wish I were that concise. Not everything in this biz is objective. I’m done!

  • stuartzechman

    deconstructiva:
    .
    Listen I really appreciate you explaining how you see things to me, it’s obviously not the easiest topic of discussion for you.
    .
    I think this, right here: “But this process is easily corruptible (rather than broken).” explains the difference between how you and I see things.
    .
    I do think that the process is broken, and, while I may or may not trust different reporters’ intentions and good faith, I definitely do not trust them to fix journalism by themselves. I have nothing against Amy Sullivan personally, just her ability to self-correct some of her more egregious professional practices.
    .
    That difference explains the sort of personal nature of your interactions with journos here, because you either trust them personally on an indefinite basis(until proven otherwise), or you don’t.
    .
    I think that, regardless of the personalities of the journos involved –excepting slightly the columnists, for whom there are a different set of constraints and expectations– they’re operating with very, very flawed methods and conventions that prevent them from communicating effectively to a public that’s desperate for information (sometimes whether that public knows it or not). The interaction that commentary provides, the immediate feedback possible through the blogging medium, and the community of trust that can be built such that the journos know who is criticizing in good faith are a means to the end of better journalism, and a better government and country because of it.
    .
    After two long years of persistent, constant campaigning in commentary, after sometimes bitter criticism and even invective, after being assured by my brothers and sisters in commentary that such attempts at engagement were futile, Joe Klein –a bitter ideological enemy– has taken to responding to commentary, usually with clarification to his original post.
    .
    That’s been a lot of patient work, deconstructiva.
    .
    When I came here in 2007, after I heard Wonkette had set up shop at TIME, nobody responded to us. The comments were an afterthought. It wasn’t expected that we would do the research, fact-check the journos’ claims, copy n’ paste the language of bills, or explain what the reporters didn’t have enough time or expertise to make clear. Jay Carney left to be Biden’s PR guy without ever saying a word.
    .
    I’ve worked really, really hard to try to get the pro writers to respond reasonably to us, and to engage each other in a way that their normal guidelines prohibit –a protective, “us against them” wagon-circling impulse that stops journalists from being as effective as they could be. That’s why I’ve questioned you as to why you’d want to preemptively caution them against “fighting.”
    .
    I think that every mainstream publication’s blog should be this way. I think it would be better for all of us.
    .
    I don’t think that individuals corrupt the process, I think it’s a systemic problem, one that takes a demanding, engaged public to solve with reasonable and dedicated journalists.
    .
    JC is right, we’re doing different things here under very different premises. The statement “this process is easily corruptible (rather than broken)” is pretty much all I needed to figure out what that difference is, deconstructiva, so thanks for cluing me in.
    .
    It’s been a pleasure having this last bit of conversation with you, deconstructiva, you have my sincere gratitude.

  • stuartzechman

    I think that, regardless of the personalities of the journos involved –excepting slightly the columnists, for whom there are a different set of constraints and expectations– they’re operating with very, very flawed methods and conventions that prevent them from communicating effectively to a public that’s desperate for information

    That didn’t come out right.
    .
    What I meant to say is that the columnists are expressly allowed their personalities (and ideologies) to affect what they write and how they write it, and so the flawed methods and conventions are executed in regard to who they are personally, such as in their level of hubris or lust for the inane.

  • deconstructiva

    …wow… you’re right, stuart. That IS a key difference. This is a true “aha” moment. I didn’t see that and it helps explain things. I have to head out but thanks for your insights. They really help.

  • newfreedomblog

    Ms Tumulty has made it abundantly clear where her bias lies with healthcare reform. Even to the point of attempting to compare the up-coming change in “rules” to justify the passage of the most comprehensive healthcare reform legislation in this country’s history.
    .
    Keeping that fact, and it is indeed a fact, in mind, Ms Tumulty also in her bias is now attempting to compare the rule change to a rule change by the Republicans in 2006.
    .
    However, Ms Tumulty does not reflect upon the nature of the exact legislation which she wants to compare. She does not cite or reference the vote count as well. Surprising, no?
    .
    Ms Tumulty does not lie, but she does distort. She distorts to the point that the real truth is buried in mud. Distortion to the point of comparing apples with oranges. Comparing bolts and nuts. Comparing Jesus with Hitler. The American public the consumer of news deserve far much better. They deserve the truth, not the spin from the current Administration which Ms Tumulty clearly aligns herself with.
    .
    As Ms Tumulty’s bias continues, I call upon TIME.com to remove her from any further postings on the healthcare debate. She is nothing short of a shill for the far left’s endeavors to pass a bill that the vast majority of Americans have determined is simply a BAD BILL.

  • FlownOver

    Yeah, no more reporting about health care unless you oppose it! If you don’t accept our wingnut lies, YOU’RE BIASED!
    .

    Yeesh.

  • stuartzechman

    a shill for the far left
    .
    LOL
    .
    Comedy gold.
    .
    Just apologize already to Tumulty for calling her a shill for the SEIU, Rustyblog!
    .
    Just genuinely say you’re sorry, and be done with it.
    .

  • diecash1

    It’s just not possible. RustyBlogWhore has not one single ounce of integrity. He’ll just continue to spout right wing nuttiness and run away when he gets pounded because of it.

  • jcapan

    Wow, cool to see you guys (forgive me but I don’t know Decon’s gender) got that worked out.
    .
    And, SZ, to respond to your last quip on pg. 2, “Or, inside of every Mandela rotting in jail is an ANC,” are you implying that we live in a prison house? I think it’s above debate but…

  • apr2563

    new rusty: I am sure Karen Tumulty’s boss immediately removed her from further HCR coverage based on your imperious command.
    To give the peasants here some clarification what did she “distort” in her citation about prior use of the self-executing rule by Dreier and the Republicans?

    Or, do you just want to demand, “off with their heads.”

  • ilikechips

    KT- gotta agree with Newfreedom here. After reading your posts. It’s absolutely crystal clear which side you come down on. Please reread your posts and realize that you are doing a poor job of presenting the oppositions points to this bill. Thank You for considering this,

  • newfreedomblog

    Old apr2563:
    .
    Apparently you did not take the time to read my comment in detail. Apparently you missed the point that I made which goes into detail that Ms Tumulty’s review and subsequent conclusion that “the Republicans did it, so it’s ok for the Democrats to go ahead and do it” was a justification for her bias to pass this bill.
    .
    Our Constitution is very clear on how bills are to be passed into law. Yes, in the past there have been occassions when a bill has been “refined”, but in each of those occurences it was done AFTER a bill was passed by a vote in both houses of Congress. At no time has any bill been offered up and amended by a simple “rule” change before it first went through the process as defined by the Constitution.
    .
    Ms Tumulty and her gaggle of liberal revisionist would love for you to believe that this bill has already gone through the constitutional process to be passed into law. That is fact number one. Those that have passed through this process of “rule changes” had already been signed into law. They used “rule changes” to pass amendments.
    .
    Secondly, Ms Tumulty and her gaggle of liberal revisionists would want you to believe that “simply changing the rules” is ok to do because, “hey, those Repubicans did it too”.
    .
    Third, Ms Tumulty does point out one and one fact only, that the process of perverting the constitution was a tactic to simply change the “rules” was started by the Democrats in Congress. She outlines specificially, even down to the percentages, how this tactic of rule changing has worked in the past. However, what she neglects to inform her readers is that ALL of these bills have passed by a vote previously. That ALL of these bills were of a budgetary nature only, and were not major pieces of legislation affecting 100% of Americans and changing 1/6th of our economy forever. And, none of these bills were passed with only the support of one party.
    .
    That oldapr2563 is why I ask for her to be removed from further comment or the ability to post any more distortions on the healthcare debate. The ONLY thing Ms Tumulty has proven is her bias. No one, not even Mr Zilchmen can argue that she has not been arguably biased with her coverage on healthcare. She has been un-wavering in her support of this bill from the start. She has relentlessly attacked the right, demonizing us who do not believe this specific bill is a good bill for reform. She has not posted one word of argument against passing this bill. Her goal and reporting has been all about passing this bad bill, and distorting the truth. Why else would she take exception to what Jay Newton-Small wrote?
    .
    You see as people like yourself and Mr Zilchmen rant and rave about how unfair the media is for the left, I can find the same amount in the reverse, and in most cases multiples more negative about the right.
    .
    I am not here to gobble up the garbage that people like Karen Tumulty spews forth from her computer. But, I will frequent sites such as this to bring forth the truth, and to point out the biases of people like Karen Tumulty and TIME.com.

  • newfreedomblog

    Maybe this will also help to explain the bias of Karen Tumulty’s post here for you oldapr2563.
    .
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/15/AR2010031503742_pf.html
    .

    “After laying the groundwork for a decisive vote this week on the Senate’s health-care bill, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi suggested Monday that she might attempt to pass the measure without having members vote on it.
    .
    Instead, Pelosi (D-Calif.) would rely on a procedural sleight of hand: The House would vote on a more popular package of fixes to the Senate bill; under the House rule for that vote, passage would signify that lawmakers “deem” the health-care bill to be passed.
    .
    The tactic — known as a “self-executing rule” or a “deem and pass” — has been commonly used, although never to pass legislation as momentous as the $875 billion health-care bill. (A fact Karen Tumulty fails to point out). It is one of three options that Pelosi said she is considering for a late-week House vote, but she added that she prefers it because it would politically protect lawmakers who are reluctant to publicly support the measure.

  • stuartzechman

    I think “Mr. Zilchman” is kind of funny, actually.
    .
    I would never have thought of that insult.

  • http://www.twitter.com/jnsmall Jay Newton-Small

    I did, actually, ask that twice. And then reviewed it with his staff. And if you’d read my post, you’d note that I included two big examples — the debt ceiling and the Deficit Reduction Act — where Republicans used self-enacting rules and noted that it was a bit hypocritical.
    JNS

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