Israel First?

They just confirmed what anybody outside of Washington, DC knew a long time ago. Nothing to see here.

well…some of us see AIPAC as a foreign agent anyway

Uglier than this?

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2008/08/18/movers-and-shakers/

“Israel has tremendous support in the United States, especially among Evangelicals (who believe that the achievement of a Greater Israel–that is, the annexation of Palestinian lands–would be a precursor of the Rapture).

As an American Jew, I find this extremely embarrassing and unfortunate.”

As an American, I agree. I mean if one of your primary bases of support is the rapturists, you may have overreached. This is a community, after Greater Israel is achieved, that says Jews aren’t invited to the ensuing big rave in the heavens with that Jesus fella on the turntables.

Just curious, Joe: Will this be the first time Marty Peretz calls you a self-hating Jew, or is this old hat for you?

Didn’t the Bund movement challenge Roosevelt? I could be wrong of course.

I have a proud record of never clicking on your links.

Serious question Joe. I know that Israel was pissed at Scowcroft , Bush Senior, and Baker during the Bush the not so incompetent president in the late 80′s. Did AIPAC fuss at them?

There is an alternative to the AIPAC – J-Street.
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When Jewish Americans have J-Street as a Pro-American Pro-Israel alternative, why do they have to bother supporting the almost Anti-American AIPAC?

I believe you are right trifecta55. As I recall, lebensraum and ethnic ghettos were also an issue during that era.

The America-Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) has done a very unwise thing…

Joe, you know more about AIPAC’s history than I do, but when has wisdom ever been their prime motivator in decision making? To my eyes they seem to rely on outrageous belligerence and sheer political power to get their way, and so far it seems to have worked pretty well for them. Can we honestly expect this time to be any different?

On a related note, in Adam’s Haaretz link from his ‘Morning Must Reads’ (Netanyahu is creating a committee to investigate the timing of the decision) I found this nugget:

Sources in the Prime Minister’s Office said the crisis appeared to be orchestrated by the U.S. administration, as Netanyahu apologized to U.S. Vice President Biden and believed that the crisis was behind the two allies.

Am I reading that right? Netanyahu is blaming US for this dust-up?!

Stand by. The right wing jewish zealots will arrive shortly to inform and enlighten us all in the righteousness of war crimes and subjugation of peaceful citizens for the purpose of demonstrative example. If you can’t wait, check out Klein’s last post on the issue on page 2.

Obama is the sitting President. Not a king. He does not personally embody “the US”, and disagreeing with him on any issue or taking a position against his Administration is perfectly valid for any citizen as long as the law of the land is upheld. This concept is so obvious that it wouldn’t need to be mentioned except, of course, in the context of defending people who are defending Israel.

I’m curious whether Mr. Klein would use such stupid, intemperate and demonizing language against, say, those Iranian-American citizens who are arguing against this Administration’s position on sanctions.

It’s OK to be a supporter of a foreign country but, at some point, there’s a number of people, incluidng members of the U.S. Congress and AIPAC, who are going to have to decide where their true loyalties lie – with the nation of Israel or with the United States.
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Israel is NOT one of the 50 states. And I know of NO plans to make it one.
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And there are an increasing number of instances in which their interests and ours do NOT coincide.

Good heavens Joe

Are you still at it? I have just summarized the previous Blog and you are still meddling:

http://ikejakson.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/an-oscar-for-joe-the-meddler/

All I can add is that I am American, and I am not a Jew or an Evangelical.

Something tells me that I’m representative of my fairly large “group” when I say that the World does not revolve around Israel.

The preferential treatment Israel gets tends to grate on a raw nerve. Especially when they act this way.

Israel will always behave like a spoiled brat. And they’ll continue until we stop giving them free handouts. They are in serious need of a time out and/or spanking.

But I suspect it wants a showdown with the Obama Administration, which, unlike its Bush predecessor, has stood with the rest of the world in requesting that Israel adhere to Road Map laid out by the so-called quartet (the U.S., E.U., U.N. and Russia), a plan the West Bank Palestinians seem to be taking seriously.

Perhaps you can correct me, Joe, but didn’t G.W. Bush push through the 2003 Roadmap? Was it not the Bush administration that was constantly butting heads with Ariel Sharon over the illegality of settlements? Weren’t Rice and Powell sent to Israel on numerous occasions, only to be mocked and insulted like Biden? Didn’t G.W. Bush incur the wrath of Congress over this issue, at the behest of AIPAC taking marching orders from Sharon? Seeing as how we are witnessing the same events unfold again, why would you expect different results? And why would you act as if Obama is on the right path, whereas Bush was not, when Obama is doing precisely as Bush initially did, and he will ultimately wind up doing precisely as Bush ended up doing…defering to Israel?

afguy, good point. Israel currently has more congressmen and senators in congress representing their interests than any of the individual states. And we won’t even get into pork.

Joe Klein:
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Would you mind please clarifying this particular point above for your readers?

Just after I posted that the PBS news hour feature on US soldiers killed in Afghanistan and Iran came on. There were 9. I would say they died for the Israeli cause. How many Israeli soldiers died in the same period?

Except that most of those people don’t side with a foreign country over the US.

Pray tell, professor Inesteen, who do you think should administer the timeout/spanking?

Could you point out which ones are the “peaceful citizens”?

Willful optimism? Woeful ignorance?

To all American and Israeli Jews,

Don’t trust Christian evangelicals. They don’t have your best interest at heart. They WANT you to be at war with your neighbors. They want Israel to be attacked and many Jews killed. Because that’s their prophecy. In order for Christians to be saved, in order for Jesus to come back, Jews must die.

The claim evangelicals support Israel because of the rapture is a smear and absurd. Even if that was the sole reason it hardly matters. Support for Israel runs deep among all conservatives with few exceptions and most conservatives are not evanglical.

Joe’s position that AIPAC can’t side with Israel or any other nation versus Obama is also absurd. If this were Bush he’d have no problem. The only dangerous aspect is this is something else to take Obama’s support down a peg. Obama has badly overplayed his hand and it will harm US-Israeli relations. AIPAC will almost certainly continue to take an active stance against Obama if he continues bashing Israel . It’s why they exist.

MNG~
Those would be the ones who were pushed off of their lands by the international community to make a nation for a people whose ideology consisted of racism, supremacy, and expansionism. I would add this caveat: an “otherwise” peaceful citzenry, who absent military occupation would behave within the widely accepted norms. Factor in occupation and, as we all know, people will resist, by any means necessary. I suppose the French underground resistance and the Jews of Warsaw were violent terrorists. As they should have been.

“I can’t remember another ethnic or religious lobbying group publicly siding with a foreign country against the President of the United States..”

This is another smear. AIPAC has open membership and over 100,000 mmbers. It’s not an ethnic nor a religious group.

At the very least, Rahm Emanuel should be put on the spot.
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IIRC, he holds dual US/Israeli citizenship and, rather than serve in the U.S. military, he served in the IDF. Kinda makes you wonder…
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There should be serious questions about where his priorities lie, given that he has been one of Israel’s greatest sponsors during his time in Congress.
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Or is that one of the main reasons he is there in the first place.

Mr. Nice, those would be the ones in the Gaza ghetto who are not terrorists. Like the children who were killed in schools, hospitals, and homes. Are you suggesting that most of the fatalities in Gaza were terrorists?

Exactly when will a member of AIPAC have to decide where their loyalties lie? What are you babbling about? They can take a position against Obama anytime and all the time. It’s called the 1st amendment.

The claim evangelicals support Israel because of the rapture is a smear and absurd.

Really?
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How do you explain this (link to 2006 NYTime piece):

November 14, 2006
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For Evangelicals, Supporting Israel Is ‘God’s Foreign Policy’
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By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK

WASHINGTON, Nov. 13 — As Israeli bombs fell on Lebanon for a second week last July, the Rev. John Hagee of San Antonio arrived in Washington with 3,500 evangelicals for the first annual conference of his newly founded organization, Christians United For Israel.
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At a dinner addressed by the Israeli ambassador, a handful of Republican senators and the chairman of the Republican Party, Mr. Hagee read greetings from President Bush and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel and dispatched the crowd with a message for their representatives in Congress. Tell them “to let Israel do their job” of destroying the Lebanese militia, Hezbollah, Mr. Hagee said.
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He called the conflict “a battle between good and evil” and said support for Israel was “God’s foreign policy.”
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The next day he took the same message to the White House.

Well?

The claim evangelicals support Israel because of the rapture is a smear and absurd.
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Not absurd, rdw. My daughter is a hard-core Evangelical Southern Baptist and she put it in just those terms.
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The belief is called Pre-Millenialism. Sorry that doesn’t fit in with how you want things to be.
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Your constant references to “smears” sounds alot like Arial Sharon’s continued references to “blood libel” when he heard Israel accused of things he didn’t like.

It’s also a “tried-and-true” Anti-Defamation League tactic.

Joe wishes the primary base of support were the rapturists. Maybe then he might have a way to move the debate and have some influence. What Joe is panicked abot here is the fact the AIPAC does have a lot of influence and this is turning into a big time political battle Obama can’t win at a time he’s trying to focus on healthcare.

Joe understands the upcoming AIPAC convention with Netanyhau will be a major affair closely corregraphed and watched. Netanyahu will be very well received and that alone will make Obama look bad. Worse for him is BiBi will not take any shots at Obama. Instead he will do as Bush does and show total class.

AIPAC will almost certainly continue to take an active stance against Obama if he continues bashing Israel . It’s why they exist.
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Are you admitting that AIPAC is acting as an agent of a foreign government?

The Israeli zealot zionist calvary has arrived. Those short posts are just warm-ups. The long mind numbing rants shall follow shortly.

J-Street is a fraud. They’re anti-israel pretending to be pro-Israel but generally harmless.

There may be another side to this story.

Remember the “dangerous” partial quote we saw from Joe Biden? Here’s the whole quote: “This is starting to get dangerous for us,” Biden reportedly told Netanyahu. “What you’re doing here undermines the security of our troops who are fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. That endangers us and it endangers regional peace.”

Foreign Policy on-line:
The Petraeus briefing: Biden’s embarrassment is not the whole story

http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/03/14/the_petraeus_briefing_biden_s_embarrassment_is_not_the_whole_story

Not that I’m particularly hopeful, but if I were looking for a reason to expect Obama’s dustup with Israel to end differently than Bush’s, I’d first look at the war(s). People on both sides of the political divide are, for the most part, ready for our soldiers to come home, one way or another. If voters understand that a tougher stance against Israel (which would place us not only alongside Arab countries, as so many conservatives have disdainfully noted recently, but alongside Europe and Russia as well) bodes well for peace in Iraq and Afghanistan, it could end up being a tremendously popular move for a President who could use a win with more tangible benefits.
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I’d also like to see somebody delve a little more deeply into the notion, widely circulated by the AIPAC and it’s supporters, that the US and Israel share ‘basic, fundamental’ interests. That is, interests aside from shared strategic interests, which are becoming less obvious by the day. What are these fundamental interests, exactly? The subtext, of course, is that we don’t share those interests with Palestine and Iran. I think it’s time somebody articulated what exactly those interests are.

Save your breath. rdw lives in his own world. Obama is bad, Israel is alway good. Just wait until he gets into Israel’s nuclear might (they have subs, which was news to me) and screw the world. He is really a trip.

“How do you explain this (link to 2006 NYTime piece):”

What am I supposed to explain? 1st this is the NYTs so it’s accuracy is questionable. 2nd, there’s no mention of the rapture. 3rd it’s one pastor and 3,000 supporters. He’s not all evangalicals.

If you are trying to point out Christians support Jews in their battle against Islam that’s true, That’s not what Joe said. Christians should support the jews. Muslim fundamentalists are equal opportunity killers. The borders of Islam are bloody because they kill all infidels.

LOL.. At least you seem to agree that J-Street is Pro-American.
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Well, Let me have my say as well. Here you go:
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AIPAC is a fraud. They’re anti-American pretending to be pro-American and are indirectly responsible for the deaths of so many American soldiers, fighting a proxy war on behalf of the state of Israel.

They can take a position against Obama anytime and all the time. It’s called the 1st amendment.
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Not talking about criticizing Obama, rdw. Didn’t say that, although you erected that strawman quite nicely. I’m talking about putting the welfare of another country over that of the U.S.
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I take it you’re a member, then?

afguy,

I didn’t say a lot of evangelicals believe in the rapture. I said that’s not driving conservative support nor the only reason evangelicals support Israel. Joe made the only only to smear the supporters of Israel in this debate.

My point is he’s pathetic on doing so, It’s sophmoric. Make the intellectual case Joe instead of impuning the motives of your opponents. There’s no need to panic.

“I’m talking about putting the welfare of another country over that of the U.S.”

This makes no sense. Disagreeing with Obama hardly rises to putting the welfare of Israel over the US. We have the 1st amendment for the precise purpose of mocking those kinds of settlements.

How about you explain how agreeing with Israel and Disagreeing with Obama affects the welfare of the USA?

It’s an absurd claim.

formerly: yep, he just got good and wound up. All Muslims are our enemy because the Israeli government and their supporters say they are.
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Anything Israel does to kill or control Muslims or Palestinians is good and we’re supposed to do all in our power to help them do it.
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All because they’re so democratic and noble and such…

rdw, do you make any distinction between Islamists and terrorists? I suspect not and that would explain your dismissal of Israeli war crimes. Born into the religion and ethnic group is to be a terrorist, at birth.

I’m not sure what you’re spazing out about, rdw. Joe Klein made a point about evangelicals and you read that as “conservatives,” and then launch into a tyraid about how evangelicals doesn’t equal conservatives. In doing so, you seemingly miss the rest of the post in which Joe discusses how every administration since Nixon (whom I seem to recall being a conservative) has called for a halt to settlements. So, you come off as oversensitive to something that patently wasn’t directed at “all conservatives.”

I didn’t say a lot of evangelicals believe in the rapture.
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No, you didn’t – I DID!! It’s the Pre-millenialist part that they believe in that drives a lot of the support. Those that don’t believe in the 1000 years part really have no great love for Israel or do only as long as they see the nation of Israel behave themselves.
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MOST, if not all, of those fundamentalist nutcases you see on Sunday AM TV believe in that and they have a very rabid following. Those are the ones the GOP has co-opted over the years.

“do you make any distinction between Islamists and terrorists”

Depends if the distinction matters. If we are talking about Israel versus Hamas and Gaza there is no real distinction. The people of Gaza elected terrorists to lead them. Thus as supporters of terrorism they bear full blame for their terror acts.

Do I think most muslims are terrorists? No. Do I think most muslims support terror? I don’t know but it seems possible. Are there hundreds of millions of muslims who just wish to live in peace and allow others to worship as they choose. I’m sure they are and they’re no different than I am or any christians, jews or secularists.

As it happens in 2010 and most of my lifetime the borders of Islam are bloody. That’s a fact. Large parts of Islam remain mired in the dark ages. The concept of a fatwa is contemptable. Until Islam has it’s reformation and removes these concepts I will support any group defending itself against Islamic terror.

How about you explain how agreeing with Israel and Disagreeing with Obama affects the welfare of the USA?
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It’s an absurd claim.
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Didn’t talk about disagreeing with Obama, rdw. YOU’RE the one that keeps adding that in. It’s the ONLY way you can keep portraying what I’m saying as simply a 1st Amendment issue.
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I’m talking about placing the interests of another foreign nation consistently and blindly over that of the USA.
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Sorta like you’re doing right now… with emphasis on the consistently and blindly…

wxsnoozle, thanks for the link. As I pointed out above, American soldiers are dying for Israel, and Israeli soldiers are not dying because they possess overwhelming arms fighting against an unarmed population, killing innocent people, including children. There is no psychotropic drug to handle that form of insanity.

koabd,

Joe’s obvious attempt was to demean those who widely support Israel by defining the evangelical core as rapturists and by implication linking them to all other supporters. The largest bloc of voters who support Israel by far are conservatives. Joe makes that link at every opportunity. It’s rather weird.

As I conservative I guess I’m supposed to feel diminished in some way because I agree with someone who supports Israel because of the rapture? Really? You are kidding me?

I dunno. On the one side, I see folks who applaud and encourage actions like shooting a 10-month-old baby in its mother’s arms. On the other side, I see the Israelis.
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I’m just asking who are the “peaceful people” that were mentioned.

“The concept of a fatwa is contemptable. Until Islam has it’s reformation and removes these concepts I will support any group defending itself against Islamic terror”
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Ummm.. What about the concept of Rapture and “Haiti deserves it because they made a pact with Satan” kind of concepts in Christianity?

rdw,
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Put bluntly, Bibi could appear onstage at the AIPAC conference wearing a red cape, horns, and sporting a pointed tail and pitchfork and it wouldn’t matter to most of Israel’s more hard-core supporters.
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Support of Israel = political power here with conservatives, not moral principles. Israel can do whatever it wants and they’ll be supportive. For the Evangelicals, the foundation of Israel is part of a prophecy in Revelation. When fulfilled, Israel will be destroyed.
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Whether or not you feel diminished by sharing support with such isn’t a great concern. It’s obvious you are going to be supportive regardless of their actions.

Israel has been fighting this war for 40+ years. Have they asked us to fight someone else on their behalf, before? Mostly, I suspect they want us to just get our of their way and let them take care of business.
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No, this is simply the chicken-hawks in Congress wanting to exercise their military muscle and show how bad-azz they are. ‘Course – like the French in Vietnam – it didn’t turn out as easy as they thought it would. Why can’t those third-world countries just roll over and play dead when a “super power” rolls into town…?

Ummm.. What about the concept of Rapture and “Haiti deserves it because they made a pact with Satan” kind of concepts in Christianity?
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maverick,
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See my comments about Fundamentalist nutcases on Sunday AM TV (e.g. John Hagee). A LOT of church-going Christians think he needs to have his mouth washed out with soap… he’s really out there…

“There may be another side to this story. ”

Not really. This is pure liberal panic. Joe despises AIPAC because their influence exceeds that of the entire MSM regarding Israel. As long as AIPAC is on this it’s dangerous for Obama. He’s well out of his league. A solid majority of Americans support Israel and even if they don’t support Israel they don’t support Palestine with their many terror organizations.

The right has been all over this. It’s not going away. Netanyahu’s visit to AIPAC is going to be huge news and closely followed.

Another absurdity here is in sending Biden Obama took a chance he’d put one or both feet in his mouth. Joe actually did quite well for Joe. Many people who are half listening will think Joe said something stupid.

From which side? Seems like both sides can go to extremes.

Discostu~
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Excellent questions. There are three overarching arguments that attempt to rationalize unfettered US support for Israel. According to this doctrine, Israel 1)claims the moral highground, 2) is a strategic ally, and 3) shares American values. All three are patently false.
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As for the moral superiority of Israel, well, the notion is simply too absurd to adress at length. Simply put, Israel is no more honorable in its conduct of war than anyone else, and certainly, the Israeli people are no superior than the Arabs, so Israeli “myths” aside, the logic of this rationale is stunningly egregious.
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In terms of Israel being a strategic asset to the United States, the origins for this claim can be found during the Cold War. The argument went that as Arab regimes began to turn towards the Soviet Union for support and guidance, the United States needed to strengthen ties with Israel to offset Soviet power in the Middle East. The irony, of course, was that the Arab states were only turning to the Soviet Union because they failed to be well-received by the United States. Many Arab regimes pleaded with the US for cordial relations and economic arrangements, but Israel undermined these exchanges. As we turned a blind eye to the Arabs, they turned hesitantly to the Soviets, who they did not want to be dependent on yet needed the backing to help combat the growing strength of Israel. With the fall of the Soviet Union, the strategic “benefits” of Israel began to disappear, and so AIPAC and the Likudniks beat the drum of international terrorism and the rise of Islamism. Again, Israel is supposed to be our assest against a shared enemy. Again, the irony is that we largely face such an existential threat as Islamism and international terrorism because of our complicity in Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians. In both the Cold War and the 21st century, Israel is only a strategic ally in countering threats that have arisen because of Israeli policies. It’s quite absurd that we would consider the cause of our troubles to be the solution to our problems.
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As for shared values, this may be where the concept of fundamental interests is grounded. As the story goes we have a shared interest in the principles of democracy, liberty, and equality. Unfortunately, Israel’s sole identity is one of a Jewish nature. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but one cannot claim to be a Jewish nation and still hold fast to the ideals of liberty and equality. The pursuit of an ethno-religious purity shatters any chance of Israel sharing our neoliberal democratic values. There are areas of commonality, sure, but not necessarily something to be stressed. Certainly not more than our relationship with the Brits, who coindidentally, receive far less diplomatic cordiality, economic aid, and military/intelligence support. Really, the area most shared is between the Likudniks and the neoconservatives, who have a shared fundamantal interest in regional transformation and regime change. Israel, with grand plans of hegemony, advocates for the toppling of governments in Iraq, Syria, and Iran. The neoconservatives, fully buying into the strategic ally argument, similarly wish to elevate Israel to a status of region supremacy.

Netanyahu’s visit to AIPAC is going to be huge news and closely followed.
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So, rdw, once again… is AIPAC’s loyalty primarily to the state of Israel or to the United States? You personally seem to be cheering for the leader of Israel over that of your own country.
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I guess the question might be asked – where are YOUR loyalties, rdw? You seem to be more of an Israeli than an American.

“Whether or not you feel diminished by sharing support with such isn’t a great concern. ”

A child would see past Joe and not feel remotely diminished.

I don’t support everything Israel does. This one is rather easy. Obama is so far out of line it’s embarrasing. I also think Israel and the WB Palestinians are moving toward peace but it will take time for the Palestinians to be able to function as a state including the various agencies needed to keep a lid on the hotheads. It’s pretty clear they are cooperating and Israel wants the WB economy to boom. A few years of peace and prosperity will start changing the game. Obama can only get in the way. It’s preposterous to talk peace now with Hamas in control of Gaza. I think you even knows how this eventually ends. Borders will be very close to the existing proposals, there won’t be a right of return and they’ll figure out how to split Jerusalem or design some joint control.

> Not that there is anything wrong with that, but one cannot claim to be a Jewish nation and still hold fast to the ideals of liberty and equality.
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That’s a nice blanket slam of an entire religion and people. Well done, Neo.

“What are these fundamental interests, exactly? The subtext, of course, is that we don’t share those interests with Palestine and Iran”

How about democracy, rule of law, free markets, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc?

Is it really complicated?

“What about the concept of Rapture and “Haiti deserves it because they made a pact with Satan” kind of concepts in Christianity”.

I’m actually not sure what the rapture is so I won’t comment but the latter statement IS contemptible. But still not as comtemptable as a Fatwa.

Or, if Israel just decides they want Jerusalem for themselves, you will, once again, rail against the Palestinians for being so unruly and such hotheads.
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But, regardless, you’ll be OK with whatever Israel decides to do because, after all, they’re the “reasonable ones”.
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And I take it you believe that Obama is “so far out of line it’s embarrasing” for criticizing the building of new settlements on Palestinian land?
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Are you an Ultra-Orthodox Israeli settler – or just trying to sound like one?

How about democracy, rule of law, free markets, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc?
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Care to enlighten us as to how Israel puts those into practical use when dealing with the Palestinians?

Never, as in FAIL and don’t feed the trolls.

Exiled…

Yes, George W. Bush was one of those who created the Road Map–and, beyond that, he was the first American President to publicly support the creation of an independent Palestinian state. But he did absolutely nothing to make it happen…and he tacitly acceded to Israel’s new settlement building for the past 8 years. He was far less aggressive about negotiating a peace than Bill Clinton or his father, George H.W. Bush. After all, he also had an evangelical base to please.

MNG~
…
Wait a second. So, one side cheers the deaths of babies (and that would be everyone on that side?) and the other side is…the Israelis. Of course, Yitzak Rabin -you know that Prime Minister from the Israeli side- never ordered Israeli police and IDF to “break the bones” of the Palestinian demonstrators?
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http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/200203_Trigger_Happy.asp
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/762427.html
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http://www.shovrimshtika.org/press_item_e.asp?id=96
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/06/israel
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And, for a more expansive read, Finkelstein’s Beyond Chuptzah. Of course, these links are selective, and certainly not meant to convey the blatant one-sided bias that you displayed, but they do shatter your odd notions of the Israelis somehow being more humane than the Palestinians. Honestly, that’s how you see it: Israelis versus cheerers of baby deaths. God hep you.

Joe Klein~
Thank you for your response. Although I think you may be underestimating the role that Congressional hostility and AIPAC pressuring played in softening Bush’s positions towards Israel. His administration was quite forceful in 2002. But, things changed.

“But still not as comtemptable as a Fatwa.”
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I’ll let that slip by, even though its a lot of subjective prejudiced crap.
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Whats your stand on torture (waterboarding et al), unlawful detention, recommendations for racial profiling at airports? Do you find them comtemptable?
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BTW, GW’s version of “war on terror” does not want to treat terrorists as criminals, but as soldiers or “enemy combatants”. Should’nt Israel and you treat Hamas in a similar fashion?

I figured – for you – “Israeli” was short-hand for “bestial, can’t possibly support equality or liberty, etc.”

Mr. Nice Guy
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You utterly misinterpreted my meaning. My position was not, and is not, that Jewishness is inherently at odds with liberty and equality. I was positing that Israel cannot be an enclave for Judaism and still be an open democracy. If it is a liberal democracy, then it must have a multicultural identity, including Arabs and Muslims in the mix, or if it is a Jewish state, then it is destined to be at odds with openness. Just as, I am sure, you can agree that Islamic republics cannot be open democracies. This does not suggest that Muslims are incapable of stressing liberty and equality, but if they elevate their religious identity to the forefront of national identity, then liberal concepts must be quashed.

MNG~
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See 13.8 for a refutation of your outlandish bastardization of my comment.

Please – can we just agree on this one thing: it’s “contemptible”.

Neo, embrace your inner bigot. I mean, you completely ignore the fact that Arabs, Druze and Christians, etc. can and do run for – let alone win – office in Israel. I hear ya; sometimes you just gotta let loose with a fundamental truth: In your case, it’s that Israel can’t possibly stand for liberty, equality, democracy, etc. After all, they’re Jews…
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I’m proud of ya, Neo. I knew you had it in ya…

rdw: “I don’t support everything Israel does. ”
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You have done a magnificent job of throwing me off.
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Please tell me where I went wrong. What exactly do you not support that Israel does? Failure to launch a nuclear warhead at Teheran? I was onto that scent, but hoped for better angels.

I take exception to this: I simply quoted what you wrote. If you didn’t mean it “that” way, you should have phrased it differently. No takesie-backsies.
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But see 13.9 for follow-up.

In your case, it’s that Israel can’t possibly stand for liberty, equality, democracy, etc. After all, they’re Jews…
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How does the Israeli government apply these to the Palestinians in a practical way? Are they for Palestinian equality, or only as long as they aren’t on land they want for settlements?
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Liberty for the Palestinians? In Gaza? Walls and roadblocks to restrict movement?
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Democracy? The Palestinians elected Hamas by popular vote, mostly because Hamas tried to take care of the needs of the Palestinian people. As near as I can see, it’s got to be the right kind of democracy to be acceptable.

addendum while you ponder any critical thought you may have about all that is Israel: do you also occasionally entertain a positive thought about Obama? We are getting into the twilight zone now, I know.

When and where did I write Israelis were “bestial, can’t possibly support equality or liberty, etc”?
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You’re a petty liar. Rather than debate the points at issue here, which is that the Israeli government is an oppressive government, you employ ad hominems and false attributions. I have not made any negative or condescending comments about the Jewish people. I merely said that a nation cannot be both Jewish and democratic. Nor can it be both Muslim and democratic. Emphasizing a singularly religious identity of a nation is inherently at odds with democratic liberty and equality. It matters not what religious identity you place in that equation, the outcome is the same. If you cannot accept that as my position, that is your prerogative. You have demonstrated far more bigotry and hatred towards Arabs than I have Jews, so I would expect such tasteless arguments as yours.

I just added the “bestial.” I figured it was in-line with your other thoughts.
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On another note, I’m out, but I’ll leave you with: Oh, I’m a bigot, you’re a bigot, he’s a bigot, we’re all bigots, wouldn’t you like to be a bigot, too…?
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Catchy, no? I thought you’d like it.

For bonus points, respond in a civil manner, and I will explain how I once was enchanted with the Israel myth and turned against it.

rdw56: I don’t know if by “fatwa” you are referring to the various calls over the years by fundamentalist Muslim clerics for the deaths of people like Salman Rushdie, but a “fatwa” is technically “a religious opinion concerning Islamic law issued by an Islamic scholar” (source Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatw%C4%81).
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And just this month, a UK Muslim cleric issued an extensive fatwa condemning suicide bombers as “un-Islamic”: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7046487.ece.
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I’m Episcopalian, but that’s a fatwa I can get behind.

I’ve asked rdw 4 separate times about AIPAC and its loyalty, if toward the US or toward Israel, and have gotten no response.
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Same regarding his personal loyalties. These rabidly pro-Israel individuals seem to have a problem answering that question directly.
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When Jonathan Pollard was arrested for espionage as an Israeli agent, there were those who said that, by definition, it couldn’t be spying, because Israel was an ally.
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Kinda revealing… things have DEFINITELY gotten rather out of whack in our relationship with that nation.

“BTW, GW’s version of “war on terror” does not want to treat terrorists as criminals, but as soldiers or “enemy combatants”. Should’nt Israel and you treat Hamas in a similar fashion?”

I’m assuming you mean GWB, George Bush. The idea is they’re not criminals and they’re not solders. They don’t fit under criminal statutes or the geneva conventions. Enemy combatant is designed to be a 3rd option similar to a POW.

I thought Israel did treat their captured terrorist the same way as the USA and a lot better than Hamas treats anyone.

As far as waterboarding I agree with Cheney. It’s not torture and it’s useful. The prisoner is not harmed.

I win. Mr. (Not So) Nice Guy has no argument on which to stand, so he has resorted to arguing against points I did not make, accusing me of holding sentiments I repudiate, and has actually projected his own highly prejudicial thinking upon me. In other words, all the tell-tale signs of an intellectually feeble man, grasping with the realization that the myths he has sustained are simple that, myths. Cheerio, MNG. I do hope you’re more rational in person that when you are cloaked behind the facade of internet anonymity.

I win. Mr. (Not So) Nice Guy has no argument on which to stand, so he has resorted to arguing against points I did not make, accusing me of holding sentiments I repudiate, and has actually projected his own highly prejudicial thinking upon me. In other words, all the tell-tale signs of an intellectually feeble man, grasping with the realization that the myths he has sustained are simply that, myths. Cheerio, MNG. I do hope you’re more rational in person that when you are cloaked behind the facade of internet anonymity.

“I’m Episcopalian, but that’s a fatwa I can get behind”

Good point and I agree with you. Yes, I do mean the orders to murder. It’s a medievil, barbaric concept and will harm Islam until there is a reformation eliminating the concept.

afguy, I don’t expect a response either. If he and Benedict Arnold were the only finalists for a Presidential Medal of Freedom, Benedict would be a shoo in.

The very country that Joe Klein upholds, annexed and simply took away lands from native people from sea to shinning sea. Is there a new sovereign Navajo Nation that was started somewhere in Arizona that I am unaware of? Have the Onondagas been granted lands in New York to set up their new soveregin Nation?
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Now he upholds that same nation (the USA) against another nation (Israel) because said sovereign country has annexed land they believe to be theirs. Lands that have been occupied by, govern by and fully recognized as being Jewish for not hundreds of years, but thousands of years.
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How will Joe justify that?
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Since Joe correctly states that the US has attempted to meddle in Israeli affairs since Richard Nixon, we somehow have the right to continue based upon some idea that it is the will of the “International Community”.
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Well i hate to break it to Joe, Barack, and all the participants of the International Communist Community, but we haven’t done anything to stop the fight in the Middle East in the past 40+ years. Now we are going to squabble over land that comprises one apartment building?
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Well I will say if and when it comes down to it, I would much rather have the Israelis on our side than the be-heading Palestinians.

“I’ve asked rdw 4 separate times about AIPAC and its loyalty, if toward the US or toward Israel, and have gotten no response.”

It’s a irrelevent question. AIPAC is a lobbying group representing the interest of Israel to the US govt. My understanding it the members are Americans. While that might not be a requirement it’s the point. AIPAC and 300M + American have the right to disagree with Obama on anything at anytime and trash him to their hearts content. What does loyalty have to do with it?

I have no idea what you are getting at. I’m a conservative, non-religious American who enjoys the art of politics and discussing things political. I can’t imagine the situation when my disagreeing with Obama becomes a loyalty issue. Nor can I imagine the situation where AIPAC disagreeing with Obama becomes a loyalty issue. Joe Klein is unhinged.

James~
I too was quite the reflexive supporter of Israel…though without the viciousness oft dislayed around these parts. It took an extensive trip to Israel/Palestine on my part to see the reality of occupation. Slowly, the various pieces of the facade began to crumble away, as I saw the truth that lay underneath. Just another expanding power trying to carve its way to glory, by whatever means. History repeats itself.

On the other hand, you support the giant fatwa in Gaza.

No intelligent discussion on this (if such a thing is possible with AIPAC-related topics), should be conducted without this information.

Folks, the US Military(CENTCOM for sure) would appear to be just a wee bit fed up here.

http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/03/14/the_petraeus_briefing_biden_s_embarrassment_is_not_the_whole_story

When folks whip out 2000 year-old text (and misinterpret it like a 9-year old would) as justifications, you know something is amiss.

Now that the cold war is over and there is no need to hedge against Nasser, Israel’s political value to the US is greatly diminished. Time to let the private sector support that country.

Right-wingers, perhaps we should start here in reducing the size of government?

Shall we discuss the constant spying?

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Spy-Takes-US-Israeli-Secre-by-Robert-Parry-100315-551.html

Exiled, you know that I follow your posts on the subject. I travel a lot and would like to visit there too. But the middle east is probably not on the agenda for me anytime soon.

Just a reminder. Mr. Nice Guy is one of yours, by the way. A stark reminder that irrational support for Israel is a bipartisan defect. He’s even borrowing the tired canard of ad hominems. You know, me hating Jews and all, hence my opposition to Israeli illegalities. For certainly no one could arrive at such respect for human rights and international law unless he was a bigot.

I did notice the Mr. Nice Guy deal. I was confused and couldn’t remember who he was. Thanks for updating me.

Middle East, not on the agenda? I can’t imagine why. It’s really quite a fascinating region. Egypt and Jordan were quite hospitable and had lots of fine food, culture, and history to share with me. Beiruit, when not being bombed, is an amazing city. Fairly westernized, actually. In Israel, Tel Aviv has a vibrant nightlife, and the piers especially in N. Tel Aviv and Jaffa are beautiful. Haifa, too, is about as aesthetically pleasing as any place I’ve seen yet. And Jerusalem, the history alone is cause enough to go. I’d highly, highly recommend making your way to the Middle East sometime.

Israel has gone too far on many settlements and should stay to those lands were tacit agreement has already been made. The concept of a land swap has already been accepted with the principal Palestine will end up with the same amount of land as in 67 and of equivalent value. My understanding is the final map will include some sort of land bridge to Gaza so Palestine is essentially contiguous. There are certain suburbs Israel has developed for security purposes and will keep.

I have no doubt that on the ground there’s deep hatred on both sides for real grievances. I would not pretend to judge things I know little about. The core problem I have with Palestine is terrorism especially from the last infatada and then of course there’s 9/11. The worst thing that’s happened to Palestine is Osama Bin Laden. Right now Americans despise terrorists of every stripe and with about a dozen different terror groups Palestine has no shot at support from Americans. I think AIPACs effectiveness has been vastly overstated. It’s just not possible to grow up in America and accept Palestinian and muslim terrorism. Americans will never embrace anyone who embraces terrorism. It’s not al all complicated.

I know Joe was seething over the election of Ariel Sharon and virtually all of his policies especially the fence. Such a thing would have been unthinkable before the infatada and 9/11. After 9/11 it was a no brainer. After Hamas fired thousands of rockets into Gaza Israel has carte blanche to do whatever it wanted. Right now Joe is enraged at the seige / blockade of Gaza yet he is fully aware Americans have zero sympathy for Gazans and he can’t change that.

Islam will never have the support of Americans until AFTER they renounce terrorism AND actively prove it won’t be tolerated. They also have to end fatwa’s ordering murders or anything of a criminal nature and accept freedom of religion.

Until then AIPAC’s job will be easy. Obama can have a hissy fit every day but he won’t change minds.

Well, I gotta get to sleep. 5am comes early. Adios.

okk.. So do you think that Hamas has the right to capture and waterboard Israeli soldiers?

I support Israel taking steps to end the rocket fire.

I’d love to hear your thoughs on the future of Gaza. Egypt and the Arabs are now full partners in the siege and I beleive Hamas cleared Israel of the recent assassination blaming Egypt and Jordan.

Hamas is on record of existing to destroy Israel. Since no person can negotiate for their right to live negotiations are impossible. They have an incredibly dicey problem in how to attack Israel. The next time they generate a response Israel might be followed by Fatah. You know as well as I do Fatah will have a free hand to do to Hamas what Hamas did to them. Joe Klein and the MSM can work up unlimted outrage at any collateral damage Israel causes but Hamas and Fatah can do anything and they won’t say a word.

I don’t know about you but this seems so obvious. Part of the nation building in the WB is training from the USA and Egypt for an authentic national guard type ‘army’ to attack crime and make the WB safer. there’s also other military training and Fatah is using the time to prepare to meet Hamas. They can’t co-exist. Fatah needs to remove Hamas. The obvious way would be to wait for Hamas to be weakened at the hands of Israel and then move in. The MSM won’t cover it.

The only possible alternative is for Hamas to accept Israel’s right to exist and stop attacking. Once they prove they’re not a threat the siege is over.

I am also guessing their arab neighbors would insist they cut ties with Iran as well.

Helen Thomas and Joe Klein each deserve one another. Is Helen Joe’s mother? Anyone know?

if we have the right everyone has the right. If only that’s all Hamas did. They’re terrorists. Their goal is to slaughter innocents. It’s what they do.

They didn’t build anything. it was the approval of a plan years from starting.

Dear All

We must understand that the Israeli Government’s actions are undermining USA’s standing in the eyes of the world. Their actions are putting our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan (according to Pentagon) in greater danger. The neo-conservative Government of Bibi Nethanyahu is clearly playing to strengthen its political interests at the expense of America’s interests and the life of American troops.

Can any true American support the Nethanyahu Government against his/her own country? and fellow countrymen who are fighting on their behalf for our country?

“Care to enlighten us as to how Israel puts those into practical use when dealing with the Palestinians?”

Care to enlighten me as to how the Palestinians put those into practical use when dealing with anyone. How about they practice it on themselves?

There isn’t anything necessarily contradictory between a state having a religious identity and being a functioning democracy. That said, concern over the famous Israeli ‘demographic time bomb’ certainly casts doubt on their commitment to ideas of liberty and equality. For those unfamiliar with the story, some in Israel consider a state of affairs where Jews make up less than 80% of the population to be unacceptable. In Netanyahu’s words:
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“To stop democracy from wiping out the Jewish nature of the country we must insure the Jewish majority.”
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They’re fairly straightforward about their priorities. So Mr.Niceguy is right in saying there isn’t a necessary conflict between a religious identity and a commitment to democracy, it just so happens that many in Israel value one over the other. How they pursue those goals is something the rest of the world is right to be very concerned about.
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To clarify my earlier post, I’m quite familiar with the history of our two nations. I’d just like to hear the AIPAC articulate what it is that they believe we share with Israel on a basic, fundamental level that we don’t share with Arabs. I’ll give you a hint: I don’t think they ever would or could articulate these ‘fundamental’ shared values, because they probably have a lot to do with race, and are best left on the plane of the unspoken but implied.

“Whats your stand on torture (waterboarding et al), unlawful detention, recommendations for racial profiling at airports? Do you find them comtemptable?”

Waterboarding is not torture. I think profiling is needed. We’ll seach an 85-yr old granny in the name of political correctness. That’s insultingly ignorant. Do I think a middel eastern male age 25 traveling along should be search ahead of a 25-yr old female traveling with two kids. Duh!

This is an interesting development, AIPAC doing its best to prove that Walt and Mearsheimer were right after all!

“When Jonathan Pollard was arrested for espionage as an Israeli agent, there were those who said that, by definition, it couldn’t be spying, because Israel was an ally.”

Yes and there are those who howl at the moon. So what. Pollard went to prison.

“the Israeli Government’s actions are undermining USA’s standing in the eyes of the world”

So. Who asked the world what they think?

Walt and Mearsheimer mock themselves. I thnk their point was that AIPAC was so powerful. Don’t you want to wait to see how it turns out or are you already assuming Obama gets his comeuppance.

As a Jew, get your facts straight. AIPAC issued a statement saying to tone down the unecessary public dispute – don’t add fuel to the flame.

Israel apologized 4 times and discussed this privately with Biden. It was the administration that took the decision to issue statements in public in order to put pressure on Israel.

Lobbies, regardless of the cause, are then able to add in their statements. But AIPAC did not, by any means, deny that the mishap was unfortunate for both parties.

The most important issue though is to remain focused on Iran and it appears that Obama’s inability to muster a sanctions regime like he said he would by end of 2009, is being diverted to flare up a silly apartment announcement in east jerusalem, when Netenyahu and previous administrations before understood were off limits, ESPECIALLY in just the preliminary indirect talks.

Again, put this in perspective. Israel, which apologized 4 times, agreed this was a misake. But Obama, who is supposed to be No Drama, caused unecessary drama.

formerly, Not only in Gaza. rdw56 supports the giant fatwa on US soil – thru racial profiling of muslim looking men at airports !!
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“So. Who asked the world what they think?” – rdw56
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By the same token, Why should America care if the goal of Hamas is to destroy the state of Israel?

As far as remaining focused on Iran, the WSJ just reported that the Arab bloc won’t participate in sanctions without progress toward the I/P peace agreement. If Iran is such an existential threat, you would think Netanyahu would be more circumspect before trashing the sanctions coalition.

Also, the US military says that Israel’s failure to solve its I/P problem is endangering US troops and security.

They are also afraid that Netanyahu will attack Iran without informing the US.

Netanyahu is unfit. Regime change is needed for Israel.

rdw56,

Wow, you are so arrogant and so … oh nevermind. I don’t think I should waste my time discussing serious subjects with you any further. Thank you.

Mr Klein,

1) Is Freedom of speech still existent in the 21st century?

2) Maybe A.I.P.A.C cares about the U.S.A and that is the very reason why they are protesting.

Meaning:

While Israel maybe wrong in what they did, it is still the only democracy in the Middle East and the strongest ally the U.S has in the region.

One should never talk to his strongest ally like that (after Netanyahu apologized profusely) one might think that we are dealing with Iran (oh, sorry we are going to deal with them diplomatically..).

One analyst commented that the Obama administration is acting out of pure emotion. G-d, are they thinking what damage they are causing?…

B.t.w:
Please do stop with this nonsense that Israel purposely announced … to upset Biden, everybody (lived in Israel for 10 years) knows that these permits are a day-to-day occurrence in Israel and never reach the higher Israeli government officials.

Hope that cleared some smoke.

AIPAC Lashes Out at Obama for Supporting US Interests in Middle East

http://wp.me/pIP1s-3s

It is unfortunate that the press has not picked up the fact that Netanyahu was attending a John Hagee/Christians United for Israel rally on Monday evening after Joe Biden’s arrival in Israel. This indicates that Netanyahu was quite willing to blatantly snub the Obama administration and the attempts at peace talks.

It also demonstrates the danger of this partnership between Israeli politicians and Christian Zionists. I have written about this at Zeek, an online publication of the Jewish Daily Forward, in an article titled “A Serial Obstructionist.” http://zeek.forward.com/articles/116518/

Christian Zionism demonstrates the shortsighted policy of equating anti-Semitism with objections to Israeli policy. Prerequisites for the fulfillment of prophecy for Christian Zionists include expanding boundaries of a “greater Israel” but they also include terminating Rabbinic Judaism. The continuing unwillingness of Jewish leaders to separate themselves from millennial extremism is placing Jews worldwide in a Catch-22 situation.

It’s clearly in America’s national security interest that Israel stop building new settlements, and make serious and honest efforts toward peace.

The Obama Admin is getting feedback from its Generals on the ground that the Conservative Israeli Govt’s refusal to stop new settlements despite serious efforts by the Obama Admin is making America looks weak, empowering Al Qaeda and the Taliban and creating a more danger environment for our troops.

The Biden snub, mistake or not, has further enhanced the narrative of America is submissive to Israel. Apology or not may no longer matter as the world media amplified the original narrative in the minds of people, esp. in the muslim world.

So, this is matter of freedom of speech or mistake or apology. It is a matter of the Nathanyahu Govt’s actions are further threatening the safety of American troops fighting two wars in hostile muslim nations; and amplifying anger of the muslim world towards a perceived weak and submissive America.

So, are you for or against protecting America’s national security interests and safety of our troops?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/21/mccain-backer-hagee-said_n_102892.html
Above is a video and an article about Hagee that outline not only his anti-semitism but his anti-catholicism.

AIPAC’s affiliation with Hagee is obscene and hypocritical. It is a strictly mutually beneficial association.

Come the rapture, Hagee and his followers will say goodbye to their heathen friends the Jews and Catholics. Hagee and his ilk think Catholics are papists and not Christians. The only worthies are the born again.

Israel has seriously overplayed their hand as of late. They miscalculated in their foray into Lebanon, got their butts absolutely kicked in Georgia, and now that they think Obama is no longer popular, they think they can kick him around. Their actions smack of desperation, and unfortunately for the rest of us on Planet Earth, when a nation gets desperate that is bad news for everyone.

Taking a step back from these arguments, might we consider trying to look twenty years or so into the future?

Brief Background:

I’m a 51 year-old US citizen, and my visit to Dachau over 20 years ago is seared into my brain. It is not a single memory. Rather, many, many moments haunt me. I am a mainstream protestant, and am devoted to several jewish friends, including my best friend, who would lay down his life for me, and I for him. Try as I may, it is impossible for me to look at the history of Israel and Palestine without feeling the weight of of the holocaust – and I have inherited the intense guilt and shame my parents felt – both specifically regarding the United States’ policy of turning away many thousands of Jews from these shores during the rise of the Third Reich, and more generally that human beings could slaughter millions of jews, and attempt to eradicate them.

It is my sense that aside from the fundamentalist evangelical fringe, the strongest US support for Israel’s actions vis-a-vis the Palestinians is among people mostly my age and older. My Nieces and Nephews have been taught to never forget the holocaust and its lessons, and yet they simply cannot understand justifications for the worst elements of Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians.

Israel – powerful, educated, dedicated and crafty Israel – succesfully plays on my parent’s generation and my generation’s sense of shame regarding the plight of the jewish people through history. And Israel continues to win virtually all, if not all of the important “battles” within our country that relate to Israel and its neighbors.

However, our generations’ influence will soon die away.

Israel needs to make a permanent peace now. Surely, it can continue to take the other path – its current path – for some time and take more land, displace more people, mount more and more of a police state in the occupied territories and proclaim an endless string justifications (We are just defending ourselves…).

However, and I say this with great sadness, with each battle that Israel “wins” on this path, whether military or diplomatic, it hardens the heart of the future, and directly lessens the prospects for peace and prosperity of its own children and grandchildren.

The all new
‘Representatives for DOMESTIC AFFAIRS House’.

Now is a good time to transfer all AIPAC supporting senators and congressmen to a third House, to be known as the Representatives for DOMESTIC AFFAIRS House.

They would be allowed to vote on all domestic issues only, whilst US foreign policy would be the exclusive responsibility of the slimmed-down House of Representatives and the revised Senate.

Perhaps then America will revert to a democratic way of politics and life, and will proceed to regain the respect of the international community.

Plus, peace will be negotiated in the Middle East on the basis of international law and the majority vote of the amended UNSC. No member would have a veto. Democracy would return not only to the US but also to the UN.

As long as the U.S. continues to subsidize Israel at the current astonishing levels, then yes, the U.S. should continue to “meddle” in Israeli affairs.
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The “International Communist Committee” was a nice non sequitur, aside from the fact that calling President Obama a Communist is laughable.
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Thanks for the funny with my morning coffee.

My understanding is that Netanyahu apologized for the timing of the report on the housing projects, not for the actual plans to build the new projects. The issue isn’t just the timing–the issue is Israel’s actions.

U.S.-Israeli tensions have often been high since early in the administrations of Messrs. Obama and Netanyahu. Last July at the White House, Mr. Obama outlined for more than a dozen Jewish-American leaders a new U.S. strategy for forging Mideast peace. To win over the Arabs, Mr. Obama argued, Washington needed to create diplomatic “space” between itself and Israel by pushing for an end to Jewish settlements in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. “We have to change the way the Arabs see us,” the president said, according to the notes of a participant in the Roosevelt Room meeting.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748703909804575123551254078796.html

U.S. officials didn’t outline Friday what measures the Obama administration would take if Mr. Netanyahu’s government didn’t take steps that were seen as further underpinning the peace process. U.S. officials have noted however, that Mr. Obama has yet to visit Israel while in office, though he has visited a number of Arab states

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703447104575118160626008050.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Syria and Iran’s presidents hold a press conference saying zionists should disappear and bashing u.s as colonialists and Obama sends ambassador to syria and praises syria’s relationship with iran. Obama has also given syria sensitive communicaton systems and airplane parts and is offering IMF membership for what?

Samantha Power is in charge of NSC and has the israel file and she said in 2002 military force should be used against iran.

Van Jones said Israel had been occupying since 1948.

Rev Wright railed against Israel for 20 years.

How can Obama be an honest broker and the right wing will be in charge of israel as long as obama is president.

“Why should America care if the goal of Hamas is to destroy the state of Israel?”

Israel is our friend. We look out for each other. We are both in the war against trrorism. The idea is terrorists are cockroachs and must be exterminated. Hamas is a terror organization. They must change or if they practice terror be exterminated.

You have no idea how much damage Osama did to your cause.

Netanyahu is not going to apologize for the project. It’s Israel’s capital city. Of course they’re going to build homes. He has already made that clear.

Syria is hosting islamic jihad and hamas and training them.

Syria is arming hezbollah and hamas. Syria goes to Sudan to praise their leader as they are allowing iran to bring in weapons through sudan to hamas in gaza.

Syria, hezbollah, iran, hamas have been bragging about long range rockets that can hit israel’s airport and dimona.

Obama gets closer to syria when assad in a press conference with iran’s president disses clinton and says her translation must be wrong of iran and syria growing apart and calls u.s colonialists. Same press conference Iran’s presidents says zionists should be wiped out.

State department responds by praising syria’s relationship with iran.

Yeah thanks a lot from helping iran to bring in all those weapons to hezbollah.

Gaddaffi said he wanted jihad against switzerland and Obama’s state department apologized to him for mocking him.

Obama’s diplomacy get closer to syria and corner israel.

Obama needs to realize he can only be president to jan 20, 2017 and Israel will be around long after he leaves. He isn’t king.

You have the direction of Israel’s trajectory wrong. Israel is now stronger, safer and more prosperous than they have ever been. Emerging generations hardly need to live through a new holocaust to understand the threats they face. Time favors Israel as long as they continue as they have on growing the economy and investing in their military.

No one was dissing Biden it was a local jerusalem planning committee picked by councilmen they couldn’t pick Joe biden out of a lineup.

The project started in 2000 and there had been several dozen meetings.

This meeting was scheduled before Biden announced he was coming and the agenda was set.

It would be like Obama knowing about a fairfax county planning meeting.

Obama wants Bibi to cancel this when this was one of the only areas abbas agreed israel could keep in the map he gave to olmert. Everyone knows ramat shlomo would be part of israel even arafat agreed to it.

Obama is just putting up more obstacles. The decision can’t even be reversed at this stage as the committee has it’s own statutory authority at the planning stage level as this was only stage four out of a stage seven process and permits wouldn’t be needed for years.

Obama is also asking israel to release prisoners when israel is in the middle of shalit negotiations.

Obama is also asking israel to guarantee to talk about refugees when that is a consensus issue in israel that palestinians would have to go back to their own state.

What is the goal here. If Obama is trying to win domestic points then that will help him but in israel bashing bibi will only help him.

After the biden incident was calming down on thursday PA officials were quoted as saying they would go back to talks.

Now Obama made demands that can’t be met and the talks are completely off course.

Obama’s bibi bashing will only keep him in power longer.

And once their demands went public they become even more impossible to meet.

Were those who criticized Bush for the Iraq war “Iraq first”?
People and organizations are not obliged to refrain from criticizing the president when they see what they believe to be a mistake.
In this case Obama seeks to appease the arab world by creating a faux crisis with an ally.
Seeking to appease enemies while undercutting allies is a very dangerous policy and I don’t blame AIPAC nor anyone else for pointing this out.
And conrtrary to what you say, Joe, those neighborhoods were always Jewish, and even under the Clinton administration at Camp David they were to be within the Israeli state as part of any agreement with the Palestinians..
Don’t confuse ‘Obama first” with America first.

Of course AIPAC put Israel first. AIPAC always puts Israel first. Is this a serious question?

“Now Obama made demands that can’t be met and the talks are completely off course.

Obama’s bibi bashing will only keep him in power longer. ”

Obama is an amazingly inept Politician and BiBi has been playing him like a fiddle. The far left either has no appreciation of the shifts in Israeli public opinion since Camp David or doesn’t care or both. Bill Clinton was always the shrewd politican thinking 3 steps ahead seeking to ingratiate himself with the people while alienating BiBi. Obama just pisses on them all. illary is just as clueless. Just about everything he does, not just in Israel, is counter-productive to his own goals.

It’s not impossible bashing Israel meets his goal of sucking up to Islam but subverts the larger goal of playing honest broker. I thought sendng Biden was a mistake because he is so incompetent. He actually handled this fairly well, far better than hillary and Obama.

Yes and there are those who howl at the moon. So what. Pollard went to prison.
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Over the objections of a number of the “Israel First” crowd, including, IIRC, AIPAC.
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Israel itself tried to get him released and there are a number who STILL support his release/commutation of sentence, because they do NOT believe that spying for Israel rises to the level of an imprisonable offense.
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Israel is our friend. We look out for each other.
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Do we, rdw? Or is Israel looking out for Israel, and we are just expected to tag along for the ride?
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Once again, are YOU personally loyal to the US first or to Israel?

Joe Klein:
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Thank you so very much for responding to commentary with clarifications, it is greatly appreciated.

Joe, you say the Palestinians seem to be taking the road map seriously? That’s a joke. Nothing illustrates the unfairness of the overall situation better than this current incident. On the very same VP Biden trip to Israel for which the apartments were announced, the Palestinians had a ceremony to honor and name a square after a woman who carried out the bloodiest terror attack in Israel’s history in 1978 — 38 people killed on a bus in including 13 children. A ceremony planned by the people with whom Israel is supposed to negotiate peace and make major conecessions to, the people whose obligations under the road map are to fight terror and end incitment. But that was apparently not even note-worthy, let alone worthy of Presidential fury. Or yours.

“International Communist Community”
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LOL
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This stuff is so funny!
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What’s next?
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“International Satanist Community“?

I wonder what the provocateur Emeritus of TIME.com has to say about this…
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“But a number of Democrats think the White House has gone too far.
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“The appropriate response was a shake of the head – not a temper tantrum,” Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-N.Y.), a member of the House Jewish Caucus, said in a statement today, “Israel is a sovereign nation and an ally, not a punching bag. Enough already.”
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Rep. Steve Israel (D-N.Y.) criticized the White House for making their response so public.
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“The Administration, to the extent that it has disagreements with Israel on policy matters, should find way to do so in private and do what they can to defuse this situation,” he said in a statement.
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Rep. Shelley Berkley (D-Nev.) criticized the administration for an “irresponsibly overreaction.”
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Rep. Eliot Engel (D-N.Y.) said the response had been “disproportionate” and added that “we all have to take a step back.”
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And Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-N.Y.) said that while the timing of Israel’s announcment was “regrettable, it must not cloud the most critical foreign policy issue facing both counties — Irans nuclear threat.”

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I am anxiously awaiting Mr Klein’s response to those in his own party.
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http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/87059-dems-rebuke-obama-administration-for-israel-criticism

Why are we supporting the 2 evil entities (Israel & Palestine) with money and others? Why haven’t we questioned all the evil things they are have done? Isn’t it time to sanction them both until they behave nicely? It is time to treat them as they are – the evil entities.

Rachel, thanks very much for the link. I enjoyed your article and still have much to explore on the Zeek site. Thanks again.

For those wishing to explore issues related to this subject further, I would urge you to check out #34 above by Rachel Tabachnick. Many may have dismissed the link as blog whoring. It is not. It is to an insightful Jewish journal that provides interesting and thoughtful content in this and other subjects. It is interesting to me that for all of the smoke here, Rachel only posted that one time despite obviously being qualified far beyond most here to say something worth listening to.

Thanks so much for the commentary and the link.

…they seem to rely on outrageous belligerence and sheer political power to get their way….
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oh…I’m sorry. I thought you were speaking about commenters.
d=))
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A three thousand year old war based entirely on fictional characters…. Not so unusual.
While Protestants felt righteous enough to profile all Muslims as evil after 9/11, now Israel belligerently dismisses the entire Palestinian population, basing its decision on… past incursions.
Still,…incursions from what? All three thousand years?
Maybe the genocides that Israel inflicted upon the original inhabitants of Jerusalem and Israel have been forgotten…
left as a trade for the deaths set upon them in WW2?
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I suppose they will eventually be posting a missile towards Germany in retaliation?
And “Christians” will accept that, too?

To ALL Americans….
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Don’t trust the bible as history of anything. It was a collection of fantasy works prior to Jesus, and twisted beyond comprehension after Jesus.
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People are what counts. And nations who subscribe to using power as a reason for dominance and political homogenization should be dismissed as a relic of the past.

I’m not sure, but it looks like Hamas is an angry idiot with a slingshot and Israel is a giant. I mean, if a literal view is permissible.
.rdw, then, …if we have the right everyone has the right…. means it’s OK for Iran to have a nuclear warhead?
It’s OK for China to march in and re-govenrment all territories around it by force? It’s OK for Russia to back bin laden now against the USA, as Reagan did in the 80s?

rdw, you clump things together to make your point?
It seems so.
What makes you think we don’t recognize the amount of damage that Reagan did to our country? The fact that we would put an actor on a $50 bill, replacing a veteran?
Well, dang! I lost that argument, as the Treasury IS looking to do just that.
But, if bin laden did us great harm, his supporter was Reagan, and later, Bush junior.

rdw do u even know wat a fatwa is? or did u read abt salman rushdie and make up your mind? as for how palestinians have employed democratic practices they had a fair election and elected hamas, an organization that has done far more for their welfare over the years than the inept fatah ever did. but the US and Israel decided that they didnt like that type of democracy. how utterly democratic no? And dont forget how israel was formed in 1948. If the palestinians, or anybody for that matter would do that today, the world wouldn’t skip a heartbeat in calling that a terrorist act and an occupation. and freedom of religion in a jewish state ( or any religious state) is kind of an oxymoron. 56% of high schoolers in Israel believe that Israeli Arabs should not have equal rights. How well democracy works in Israel doesnt it? The fact is that democracy can never work in Israel because that would be the death of Jewish State, they cant have it both ways.

“Do I think most muslims are terrorists? No. Do I think most muslims support terror? I don’t know but it seems possible.”

this statement really indicates just how ignorant you are about Islam. And please define Islam’s borders. Are you talking about Indonesia, India, and Pakistan where the majority of the World’s muslim population resides? Granted Pakistan is in trouble, but what about the other two? Last time I checked there was no war in Saudi Arabia either, or Egypt, or Iran. The US started a war in Iraq and Afghanistan, and Israel is responsible for the bloody borders in Palestine, not to mention Lebanon. They have essentially kept the Palestinians in two open air prisons for the last half century, annexing land as they please, closing borders as they please, stopping aid and taxes they owe to the palestinians as they please. And people wonder why the Middle east hates Israel so much. No doubt Palestine has played its part, but Israel isnt exactly an innocent bystander. And let’s not call the Arab-Israeli conflict a war. A one-sided blood bath is more like it. It’s not as if palestinian tanks are rolling down the streets of Tel Aviv or destroying the Knesset.

Israel is rapidly approaching the day when their only support will come from End Timers, who wish them well not out of concern for their well being, but for the role they play in apocalyptic scenarios.

It doesn’t have to be this way, as many of us who are encouraging Israel to show genuine support for a two state solution, dismantling illegal settlements for the sake of peace, wish the best for both peoples. As long as they insist on taking whatever land they choose to take whenever they choose to take it, there will be no peace either in Israel/Palestine or throughout the region.

(…sorry, crash alert from firefox)
And, perhaps you are too young to realize that hitler claimed that the Jews practiced terrorism and sabotage?
Are you now saying that hitler was justified in his actions?

Waterboarding is not torture
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Better check again. By almost any standard, water boarding IS torture. So much so, that we prosecuted those who water boarded our soldiers in the past.
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http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/4204
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Or you can continue living in lalaland.

Neo, what did you win? A toaster oven? If it’s anything less than that, BFD.
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Other than that, I’m not sure I understand your vitriol. I merely replayed your words back to you. You said those words. Those words can easily be interpreted to mean that you are a bigot. Well, that much is pretty obvious, anyway. That you want the Israelis to fail, or be slapped down, or killed – I don’t know what the heck you want of them, but it isn’t good – is obvious. Just because you haven’t come out and said, “I hate Israelis” in so many words doesn’t mean that you aren’t projecting that loudly and clearly. Don’t blame me for that.

afguy
How about democracy, rule of law, free markets, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc?
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Care to enlighten us as to how Israel puts those into practical use when dealing with the Palestinians?
It might be a desperate attempt and even not worth trying given the consensus reigning on this site but I’ll dare to indicate several enlightening points.
1. To start with, electricity and running water which the Arabs who dwelled in Judea and Samaria (West Bank for you) didn’t have under the Jordanian rule before 1967.
2. A 20-year increase in average life expectancy due to modern medicine which, under Jordanian rule … you guess what.
3. An economic boom due to incorporation into Israeli economy, which under Jordanian rule … you already know. That includes construction of stone houses, cars that superseded donkeys, in general emergence of the middle class and average income like that of Saudi Arabia which lives on oil.
4. You would probably have some difficulty to believe me, but also the rule of law: free access to the Israeli jurisprudence and courts which they learned to use, and, with time, also to abuse, with invidious success. And, as you must know by now, under the Jordanian rule they had nothing of the kind and never heard of. They lost this point with Arafat’s arrival.
5. I’d mention also civil liberties which are nonexistent in the Arab world. This they mostly failed to use due to limitations imposed by their own society.
You might ask if everything is so rosy then what happens and why the wars etc? That’s a long story to lecture here. The highlights: the Arab world as a whole doesn’t accept Israel as an open society and uses these so called Palestinians as a battering ram in a variety of tactics. The KGB nurtured as one of the leaders of the so called “developing nations” Yasser Arafat and his organization used terror not only against Israel but primarily against their brethren. Israel tried to endorse other groups but finally, and under pressure and very unfortunately, accepted him as a leader and let him make his appearance in the territories given to his rule. From that moment, it is clear at least in hindsight, nothing but war could be expected. In a sense, the population was abducted from the process of “nation building” with prospects of establishing their state at some point to what I called a battering ram.
The last note: the Arabs don’t play for really getting their state. Their game is to undermine Israel morally and to bring her into submission that will result in flooding her with several millions so called refugees as a final coup de grace. There is no concession Israel can make that will bring them to sign an agreement on two state solution, let alone abide by it. Besides, if Israel leaves Judea and Samaria territory it will be a matter of months if not weeks till Hamas takes over as it happened in Gaza. And then the war will be inevitable.

You are clueless. The latest Galllup poll shows support for Israel near an all time high of 63%. Support for Palestine is at 15%.

MNG~
I did not win anything. I was making a point, although in a petty manner, that if you refute my entire position based on your intepretation of one single sentence within my extensive commentary, then you are basing your entire argument on the intangible. Especially given that I outlined my intended meaning and rejected your intepretation. I can understand how what I wrote, when read solely on its own, could bring forth connotations of something prejudicial. What I wrote was:

Not that there is anything wrong with that, but one cannot claim to be a Jewish nation and still hold fast to the ideals of liberty and equality.

My point was not that Judaism is itself at odds with liberty and equality, however. I was suggesting that a state, any state, that elevates its religious identity to one of national identity sacrifices liberty and equality. This is true of any religion. It is true of Judaism. It is true of Islam. It is true of Christianity. The context of my argument was this:

Not that there is anything wrong with that, but one cannot claim to be a Jewish nation and still hold fast to the ideals of liberty and equality. The pursuit of an ethno-religious purity shatters any chance of Israel sharing our neoliberal democratic values.

I hope you can accept this as my honest position. If it helps, I would like to provide for you a comment made by Israeli Minister of Defense, Major General Ehud Barak, at the Herzliya Conference on February 2, 2010. He said, “If, and as long as between the Jordan and the sea, there is only one political entity, named Israel, it will end up being either non-Jewish or non-democratic… If the Palestinians vote in elections, it is a binational state, and if they don’t, it is an apartheid state.”
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So, the Defense Minister of Israel has reached the same conclusion as I, namely that the identity of Israel cannot be both Jewish and democratic. Would you call him an anti-Jewish bigot, as well? I hardly think so. Perhaps, you should re-examine my positions in a less prejudicial manner. I think that I have adequately clarified the matter.

The borders of Islam are bloody is truism and not a quote I made up but something the noted Harvard Professor, Samuel P Huffington described, and documented, in his pathbreaking book, THe Clash of Civilizations.

Look, after 9/11 you can’t possibly deny Islamic fundamentalists are about the mass murder of innocents. Islam is such a backwords culture you can’t possibly invent anything or compete in any technological context. Muslim fundamentalists slaughter defenseless innocents because they can’t possibly compete with Western Armies. We see this every day in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Gaza and Southern Lebanon.

BTW: Sam ran into PC twits like you as well. His response was to tell the twit to proffer a map of the world and debate him in front of a crowd. Sam lived in the densest of PC Cultures and ran all over them.

NewsBusters — TIME’s Klein: AIPAC Unpatriotic for Telling Obama to Ease Up on Israel
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2010/03/16/times-klein-aipac-unpatriotic-telling-obama-ease-israel

Netanyahu says he will defend Israel’s “vital interests” first.

Can Obama say the same for the US and to American?

If not, don’t blame AIPAC pro Israel action, because they collect your money to promote Israel.

Israel is using the US an its mercenary.

See : The Israel Lobby And U.S. Foreign Policy, by John J. Mearsheimer & Stephen M. Walt

How are we – with our pervasive Christian-driven agenda – any different, except in denomination, from Israel? Why is our inclusion of religion – and I don’t mean Islam – in every national question seemingly Ok, but Israel can’t possibly be democratic?

And to address 24.7, I’m not one of anyone’s; I think – such as it is – for myself. If those thoughts happen to align with anyone else’s, it’s pure happenstance.

Joe, you present inaccurate facts. For the last 14 plus months Abbas et al have chosen NOT to engage in talks all the while we have time after time extended our hand to begin talks of any kind. Furthermore, Obama and our government agreed to “building freeze” in the disputed territories and Jerusalem was excluded-Abbas et al knew and knows this but “never miss out on a useful crisis? Right? Even though it has been manufactured and provided”legs” by the media. FYI, use correct terms: Israeli citizens are living in the disputed territories of Samaria and Judea.
gsd morris
Israel

Relax,

Joe has displayed once again the limited ability of the MSM to define the dialogue. Team Obama is taking a beating here and in Israel. To the extent this is another effort to isolate BiBI he’s failed miserably and in doing so giving Abbas another reason to walk away from even indirect talks. Apparantly he’s trying to create space for Livni to challenge the govt but They’ve been so clumsy she cannot possibly side with Obama against Israel. Amazingly, the WH let slip Obama thinks Netanyahu stupid. Hmmm, then I guess he thinks Israeli’s are stupid too, they elected him. And what has Obama done to suggest he has any businesss calling another leader stupid?

His quest to bring the Olympics to Chiago? How about the deal on global warming at Copenhagen? His deft negotiations with Honduras? All of the trade deals?

It’s hard to see how Team Obama could have played their cards any worse. According to Gallup Americans support Israel by a 4 to 1 margin with a near record 63% favoring Israel. A big reason is they now longer get their news from ABC and Time. Fox covered this and covered it well. Americans understand Obama took a minor gaffe and turned it into a crises. Soon Netanyahu will come to the AIPAC meeting which will be well covered and he will be treated to a rousing reception. Obama is President not King. BiBi will see support for Israel is as broad and deep as ever. Libs like Joe can dream of cutting aid but it won’t ever happen.

MNG~
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How are we – with our pervasive Christian-driven agenda – any different, except in denomination, from Israel?
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Historically we are no better than Israel in this respect. However, currently, in terms of policy we are much, much better. Cultural inclinations aside, the formal polices of the United States do not seek an ethno-religious purity. Whereas, in Israel, the policies do. For example, in the United States, if you marry a US citizen you yourself become a US citizen, regardless of religious creed, ethnicity, or gender. In Israel, on the other hand, Palestinians are barred from gaining Israeli citizenship or even gaining the right to live in Israel through marriage to an Israeli citizen. For everyone else, if they marry an Israeli citizen they, too, become an Israeli citizen. This is pure, unadulterated discrimination through legal sanction. B’Tselem refers to this as “a racist law that determines who can live here according to racist criteria.” There is also a blatant phenomen of support for “transferring” Arabs out of Israel, a policy position advocated by Abigdor Leiberman, and supported by 57% of Israeli Jews according to the Israel Democracy Institute. Imagine, will you, if 57% of white and/or Christian Americans were openly advocating for the transfer of all non-whites or non-Christians. Would you not be vehement in your repudiation of this ubiquitous cultural bigotry?

Dear Mr. Klein,
I read in horror your column and all the posters’ back and forth regardless whose “side” they righteously argue to be on. Once in a while you throw some snippet down to get these childish non-sense, masquerading as debate aflame. Is it a plan by design or is there some elements of ignorance mixed in?
Confused?
The “problem” you are screaming about and the cacophony of posters cooperating in this circus has nothing, nothing whatsoever, to do with Israel or with AIPAC. The problem has 100%, not 99%, to do with “people’s representatives” in America. And by direct extension it has to do with this group of 300,000,000 or so people populating this so-called greatest experiment in democracy ever known.
Since when, in what epoch, in what culture, an entity refuses to take something if it is offered to it? It is that all of you here are too timid, too worried about the immediate little bone that at the end of month is put into your bank accounts that you consciously close your eyes to your treasonous act by every one of you every two years. That is when you all send this group of 530 or so whores to GIVE in your name. More power to Israel for taking. And more power to Israel if it is smart enough to fool you, or force you or trick you or do whatever she deems to be to HER benefit to get YOU to send those whores who sign her checks. For fifty years of Israel’s 62, you all have been moaning and moaning, but come November, your local whore promises you (not that he usually carries it out) a road here or a VA benefit increase there, a piece of bone here, a crumb there, and that is all that matters to you. Compare how cheaply every one of you, Great American, can be bought off at election time with the class that Israel show, for any check less than a billion, she will throw it back to the face of your signing representative.
They have made all of us Americans so pathetically afraid of the government and so tragically beholden to their mercy that we do not dare to even moan at the real culprit here. You think Israel or AIPAC or what not give a hoot of what Mr. Klein or a bunch of freighted grown-ups say while hiding behind a meter-thick wall of anonymity. They actually enjoy it. Why not they like it when the Great Joe Klein bravely sends a multitude of frozen- by- fear to the wrong address. It is good for everybody that you “patriots” release all of your worked-up patriotism under his column, and then all go happily to bed till the next morning: you to your miserable, petty existence, and they to their billion and billion dollar checks.
For once wake up and see yourself, Mr. Patriot, in the mirror. You have no honor any longer, no PRIDE, nothing. What was left of it, they made you take it off with your shoes at the airport, and its last vestige, with your naked body that those scanners will be shelving somewhere, as a memento of the very last they made you give with your head down, trembling , afraid to even say ouch, it hurts!
I have news for you, Mr. Patriot that Mr. Klein and company get you to urinate at the wrong tree.
This little 3-million nation of Armenia, dirt poor, land-locked, if a nobody of country, it is she.
Over a dispute that happened 20 years before Israel was born, an issue that has nothing whatever to America, half a million Armenians in America just made these whores to lose the only Muslim friend we have had for 65 years, and not lose them but potentially make them mortal enemy of America. Go figure. How many of you tried to stop this madness by your representative. It is not that America has pledged to take a position on every issue between any two nation since Greece invaded Troy. It is that these whores, your whores, are up for grab. More power to Armenia. Shame on us, all.

The U.S. will never cease to finance our friend the jewish state for it’s occupation, our leaders can act like they want Peace or peace talks but the river of money and loans financing the endless occupation of the Palestinians is doubtful to ever end. J street is encouraging though.

In the last two weeks, I have forgotten about all of these dozens of unimaginable horror stories about this Administration and instead have been laughing constantly about one fantastic story. I am still alive to see Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu rub President Obama’s, VP Joe Biden’s, and SoS Hilary Clinton’s noses in the biggest pile of dong created by a free Republic. Little tiny Israel stands up to defend itself and all hell breaks loose. In these long and bloody 63 years, the Palestinians have not once accepted an Israeli offer of permanent peace, or ever countered with anything short of terms that would destroy Israel. I will be laughing for years and thanking God (who is in control) for Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu. I love this guy and I am not even Jewish.