Why Does Glenn Beck Hate Jesus?

It’s too bad that Christians need to be insulted first, before taking on this vile cretin, who sows hatred and division every time he opens his mouth. In fact, the organization he works for, Fox News, is nothing but an organ of hatred and propaganda, directed at those who don’t share it’s ignorant and paranoic view of the world. Why don’t the Christians take on the people who give idiots, like Beck, a platform to spread his filth, in the first place? Maybe it is because they have spent the last few decades getting into bed with the party of hate.

At least his comment about viewers wasting an hour of their time watching his show was correct but he limited his thoughts to just the day that Massa was on and actually it is any day his show is on.

While on the surface, this may be about just some knucklehead on the radio, it actually reflects a schism thats as old as Christianity itself. Jesus not only preached for social justice but he was doing so against the established order of the day. He also preached forgiveness and was rather pointed in his willingness to socialize with those who were considered outcasts in his era.

In short he has next to nothing in common with today’s movement Conservatives.

One of the most telling stories about Glenn Beck was at a job as a “Morning Zoo” host. His first week as a host, the station rival’s wife had a miscarriage. Beck called her on the phone on the air to mock them. He apparently also relished firing interns and low level staffers always doing it in public to embarrass them,
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He’s a real a-hole.

Amy – I gave up reading you for Lent last year and haven’t been back until this post, which I couldn’t resist. Thanks for letting us know this. Daniel Berrigan has a smile on his celestial face this morning.

What Paul Dirks said.

Tom Oliphant told a story after Ted Kennedy died, of going to mass with Ted while he was campaigning. Oliphant said to him something like “I know you take your religion seriously, but where did all this passion for the poor come from,” and Ted looked at his incredulously and said, “Have you ever read the Bible??”

Here in the UK the Glenn Beck “Show” has had no advertiser support for a month. That is the only thing that will deprive this moron of his oxygen. But don’t look to Fox for help. They have the nutcase vote tied up.

Can someone please explain what is so scary about a European style of socialism? Is it the slippery slope argument that soon we will be communists? Do we really think it’s so terrible in Western Europe that we have to fight to keep Socialism from making America that bad?
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I live abroad and run into Europeans, Canadians and Aussies all the time. Not one of them has ever said they would even consider having a system like ours. They laugh about our horrible health care system. It’s hard not to be a little envious of their system (and please, no one tell me to just move there, because I am an American and should not have to move to live in a country that cares about its people). Maybe they are just brainwashed though and are spewing propaganda to me?

I would love to read an intelligent commentary from the more rightward commenters in the Swamp about this post. Especially with regards to what Paul Dirks said about today’s movement Conservatives.

With the wingnuts it’s all about “the other.” The central strategy is to create an artificial bond with the audience by exaggerating the “evilness” of those who are different in any way – race, creed, religion, national origin. The illogic (they’re bad because they’re different, so you’re like us because we’re not them, so they’re bad) is stunning.

The reality is there isn’t a single socialist government in western Europe, if by socialism you mean the government owns all means of production, which is the text book definition of the word. The problem is the ignoramuses who have taken over the conservative movement seem to believe that any involvement of the government in the economy at all, is equivalent to socialism. The truth is the argument over health care could just as easily be framed as a family squabble between liberals — not the same thing as socialists– the old positive versus negative liberty argument. In other words, it is more an argument over ethics and rights, and what liberty really means, by those who share a common political ideology and set of principles.

Because hate is what religion is all about?

“Why Does Glenn Beck Hate Jesus?”
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Amy-Glenn Beck is exploiting people who believe in Jesus and also those that feel threatened by the poor. He doesn’t hate Jesus. I would bet that hating Jesus has never entered Glenn’s mind. He is not that deep. But then again he doesn’t have to be. He just has to be savey enough to use peoples’ fear and ignorance against them.
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While its nice to see christian leaders pushing back, it really matters about as much liberals pushing back against Beck. Look at his nielsen numbers. There are a lot of christians watching and listening to him.

And the little man who looks at his analog wristwatch to timestamp posts needs to reset it.

“Why Does Glenn Beck Hate Jesus?”

Because Jesus is a DFH that refuses to appear on his show.

I feel like I keep saying the same thing — I am a Christian LDS – and the comments about my traditions are off point, and being misconstrued. Beck is not the ideal Christian or LDS voice, but you who are criticizing him need to at least hear him honestly. I hear him say “faith hope and charity.” Did you check his 912 website 9 principles and 12 values? You who criticize are listening to talking points. Listen to him for a week–4 hours daily, and then return to comment. He’s not perfect AT ALL (he’s an admitted recovering alcoholic) but he’s resonating with a lot of good Christians. The good Christians who listen to him believe in PRINCIPLES and VALUES and applying them SO THEY ARE SUSTAINABLE. Mormons have the best welfare system ever designed–it is unmatched, and it is SUSTAINABLE. It works by working with people ONE ON ONE, assessing their needs, teaching them to fish, expecting and fostering self-reliance, working for what they receive, and giving VOLUNTARILY. Go to an LD S Church — no plates passed. One Sunday a year on the law of tithing. Yet the percentage of Mormons who VOLUNTARILY pay 10% of the income would astound you. ALthough you’ll find GUILTY mormons, just like in any religion, most Mormons don’t see tithing as anything but a blessing. My non-LDS mom taught me about my “grateful 10th.” I recognized it when I found the church. That’s what I hear him saying. Let us do it voluntarily–reaching within ourselves, and he’s calling us to repent of the greedy notions we’ve all had that have gotten us in to a guilty public pride that says “oh, just take my taxes or THEIRS so we don’t really have to roll up our sleeves and help them eye to eye.” For those who help EYE TO EYE, we know better than to think the check would help more or even come close to replacing it. In fact, it can do a lot more harm for many.

In Catholic circles, we were taught early on that it is our duty as soldier of Christ to help our fellow man especially those who are less fortunate than we. In all my years of Catholic school and church, I never heard the terms “social or economic justice”. These terms surfaced in the late 60s and early 70s as our entire culture became a political battlefield including the churches.

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The obligation to help those less fortunate than ourselves has not changed. What has changed is the expectation now by organizations, churches included, that demand solutions to be provided by the government through compulsory tithing (taxes). This is a failure on the part of churches and individuals who believe that by pandering for government aid it relieves them of their duties to their fellow man. The result of these failures is that we now blame government for the failure of serving the need instead of ourselves.

Given this tirade on the Daily Kos http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/3/11/132927/221
Beck’s skepticism of certain churches is not any different than Barret Browns although Beck doesn’t espouse pure hatred of these churches as does Brown.

He does, however, hate people named Jesús.

Check out providentliving.org if you don’t believe me.

As usual, Amy Sullivan, a Progressive Zealot Jounalist from TIME.com has totally taken what Mr Beck said about “Social Justice” completely out of context.
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Isn’t that right, Ms Sullivan?
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“I would love to read an intelligent commentary from the more rightward commenters in the Swamp about this post. Especially with regards to what Paul Dirks said about today’s movement Conservatives”.

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Well Mr Shakespeare, let me begin. First and foremost, religion in this country has gone two ways from the days that our Founders first stepped foot on this continent. As a history lesson for those who recently immigrated to this country, and do not hold those same values, let me review for you so that you can understand.
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In the earlier days of the settlement of this great Nation, many folks left their homelands to seek out a land where they could practice their religion without persecution. They were hard-working people. They worked 6 days a week cutting down trees to build their homes, to open space to plant their crops. They built a country which was based on the Religious values of honesty, respect, integrity, honor, and worship of their God.
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In all of this hardwork, they raised their families, now exceeding 9 or 10 generations. They built churches, roads, and schools. What is surprising I am sure to most “progressives”, they did all of this not with Government earmarks and funding from tax payers, but with their own sweat. They respected each other, and when times were bad they supported one another. If there was sickness, someone in the community who had the knowledge and healing powers came to help. Sometimes they traveled great distances either walking or riding a horse, spending days away from their own families to help those in need.
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Social Justice is a code word for Communism or Nazism. Both of these vile movements used “Social Justice” as a way to change previous Governments in Europe in the first part of the 20th Century. Both of these Social Justice movements have also vilified religion, and tried to destroy it. The same as we see today with the movement Progressives who are attempting to take God out of everything in our lives. The same ones who are saying “Social Justice” for all.
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Yes, the bible and the Christian religion teaches us to be charitable with our neighbors. To come to their aide in times of need or disaster. To share with each other when our harvests are bountiful. But, it is a choice. Our religion does not demand we give to someone who chooses not to provide for his or her family. To provide for themselves the basic human needs. If someone fails in life, we will provide them wil food and clothing. We will even open up our homes until they get back on their feet. In fact, most religions frown upon those who will not provide for themselves or their families. People who are able bodied, but decide it is easier to lay on the couch and have the government provide for all of their needs.
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Those who promote Social Justice are only interested in power. The power to control the masses. The power to control what you can and cannot do. All in the name of “Social Justice”.
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If you sit back and wait for someone to give you something you do not appreciate the value of the gift. If you have worked hard and provided for yourself or your family, then the gift will have meaning. Social Justice promotes dependence. Instead of working hard to get something on your own, you sit back and wait for someone to give it to you. This is not what Jesus taught.
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There is a clear distinction between charity and being required to give. To be told you must give this or that to the community based upon what the “Social Justice Committee” decides what you shall give. Social Justice will determine how much of what you have worked so hard for in your life that you will give. Religion, the non-Progressive religions, teach us to give from our hearts. That is the difference.

Amy, if any right wing web sites provide a link you’re in for a long day. I suggest you make an exception and don’t respond to commentary on this thread.

I think a-holes would be upset at being compared to Beck.

I agree. It’s just about using fear to get people to agree with them. It’s a little sad, but it seems to be working.

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/01/18/when-silence-is-betrayal/

Thank you for the encouragement, sacredh. I posted on this site a link to this Sullivan post.
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http://www.glennbeck.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=99009
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I wonder if this will top Joe Klein’s most recent post with over 1,000 comments?

I doubt it, but then again, miracles do happen. In some circles, Beck is more popular than $2 whores on payday.

When I look back having come from a very heavily Wall Street Republican town outside of New York City, the primary source of progressive ideas I had formed as a teenager were from being raised Catholic.

I know that not long ago, a significant majority of Catholic priests were Democrats.

Caring for the poor and less fortunate sometimes called Social justice and an ethical code which is obvious to everybody (“thou shalt not kill” – you know you really can understand that without attending any churches) are the only things I value from being raised Catholic.

Glen Beck is a raving lunatic. Of course he was going to discover the hard way that capitalism, Christianity and what our founding fathers believed in were three barely reconcilable things.

Besides scare tactics in which cases they compare the US to many different countries should we have more humanitarian policies, Republicans fear HIGHER TAXES.

Far more often than not, of course, the wealthy of Western Europe see the value of what their high taxes pay for and do not contemplate moving away to the low tax US.

So, it’s about stirring up irrational fear AND greed.

Nuns and rulers. Enhanced interrogation’s birthplace.

That’s quite a rant. I am glad people came to America to escape persecution, it’s just sad we continue to persecute people here (gay marriage).
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Hard work is all we need, not the government. I will tell my sister who has lupus to work harder when she is denied health insurance because of her pre-existing condition.
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Next time I am sick I will call my friend to help me get better instead of see a doctor, because that’s what they did in the good ol’ days.
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I am sick of people acting like they are “real” Americans and need to give a history lesson to everyone else. I am as American as you and couldn’t disagree more with what you say.

Why not mention of the fact that Glenn Beck has lost 120 advertisers? See Statements from recently dropped sponsors. Source: StopBeck

And, why no mention of the fact that his show in the UK has been running for over a month now without any advertisements due to the successful effort by the StopBeck campaign and Color of Change?

These two facts seem particularly relevant to the issue at hand, no?

Frankly, I think that Beck’s representations about social justice, while to some they need to be clarified, are very much on course with reality. He directly references social justice as a term that has been historically coopted by the left. It’s great to have ideals about things, but when you get into the reality that people are by nature consumers of things, and their needs can be defined at times according to their feelings, in the end, government cannot handle all of their needs. It would be a lie to assume that government can meet all needs, and that it can do effectively.

What is left out of the discussion is what Christians already do in terms of the type of social justice that hasn’t been coopted by the left wing of the Dems. Every day my church feeds the poor, pays bills for people simply because they ask, and we do it out of a constant flow of money that is collected from VOLUNTARY contributions. At the same time, we don’t believe in big government because it is too divorced from the local community.

I have absolutely no problem with Beck because I know he regards the phrase social justice to be coopted by the left and I have confidence in the work that I already do in the community beyond what I am writing here. My conscience is clear.

I don’t want big government. It has already proven to be wasteful and there is not enough accountability in it in terms of Dems or Republicans. It’s just that lately, Obama has proven to be the worst, and right now the Democratic party is in deed in trouble beyond its wildest dreams. The GOP is already being pressured to reform, but the Dems are out of control.

I clicked on this link because it said ,”Why does Glenn Beck hate Jesus?” But I couldn’t find in the article where Glenn Beck says that he hates Jesus.

New, get your history right.

In all of the colonies except Massachusetts and Maryland, one of the biggest drives was freedom FROM religion.

Maryland was a settlement for English Catholics who faced persecution and had to escape England. It was as much a matter that they wanted to be Catholics as it was that they didn’t want to be forced into the Church of England.

Massachusetts was where the Puritans, who had had a religious dictatorship over England and lead one of the most infamous slaughters in history into Ireland on an intra-Christian Jihad which could make some of the fundamentalist Muslims of today blush. Having worn out their welcome in England and even the famously tolerant Netherlands, the promised to go to Virginia, but were LYING.

Instead they created a theocracy in Massachusetts, needed Native Americans to learn how to stay alive and, years after the first Thanksgiving had a holy war against the native Americans known as “King Philip’s War”.

Being the government, ALL of their churches and theocracy was done by GOVERNMENT SUBSIDY.

People like the Puritans scared our founding fathers so much that Thomas Jefferson became a deist and called Christianity a “Perversion”.

Americans had unusually low church attendance since many did not consider religion a priority for the first two hundred years after settling this land.

Religion came to America in large droves in the Great Awakening of the 1820s. In the South it caught on with slave owners because the bible could be used to justify slavery.

Concepts of preachers and our founding fathers and Adam Smith all holding hands is just a conservative fantasy.

Actually, the waste of time is Time and that is why it is losing readership and shows like Glenn Beck are growing. This Time article takes Glenn Beck completely out of context in the sense that his framework pushes people to get out and get involved in their own right instead of waiting for government sanction or government control: admittedly his polemic is against big government primarily but in the end, from what he is saying, the little man is empowered to get out there and make a difference locally. He has no faith in “progressivism” because there is no real accountability in it. I would ask that Time simply either get it right or stop reporting.

The Bible actually states that “the Government will be on His shoulders” referencing Jesus. It further clarifies that the government of Christ is separate from the direct governance of the country “render onto Caesar that which is Caesar and unto God what is God’s” (check the reference to make sure I nailed these right–I believe that I did).

Beck references “social justice” as a term coopted from the Left, and in line with the Bible asserts the work of the little man in the community whose heart is turned to Christ. In that sense, pushing back against big government that is not accountable to anyone, is in line with Christ’s teachings. I don’t have a problem with it. If the Left has infultrated churches and they’re bitching about it, that’s not my concern. The Left has not been successful in my home church and it never will be. We left our denomination to insure that we remain Christ centered.

If you call teaching and requiring personal responsibility persecution then you are truly a sad and dependent person yourself, js112.
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Freedom and liberty is all about our individual rights. It is about our choices that we make for ourselves and those who are dependent upon us (our children).
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You go out fishing, split the catch in half and give half to someone you know who cannot feed his own family. This is “Social Justice”. Or, you can give your friend a fishing rod, teach him to fish so he can feed his own family.
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Despite all of your “good intentions” with Social Justice, you defeat those who simply lack the knowledge or willingness to work hard in life to acheive success. Glenn Beck and those of us you feebly attempt to mock and degrade are not saying to never “help thy neighbor”. But, what we are saying is that we do not want a big government like the Social Justice loons on the left promote to take over our lives. To determine what we can and cannot do.
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Has the ER shutdown in your community hospital? Was your sister refused medical treatment? No, those of us who are lucky to have insurance pays for your sister to get the help and treatment she needs.
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Believe whatever you want, just don’t force your ideas, your government regulations and demands for me to support your welfare when you are able bodied to provide for yourself. You may even come to respect yourself more and more each day when you do take on the reponsibility to care not only for yourself, but the needs of your own sister.

Nuns and rulers.

Now we just use ritalin and push the kids through the school system and we call it progress!

Exaggerated assumptions and inflammatory rhetoric is ok if they are used to bash the “right” targets.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.
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First of all, Social Justice was first coined in the 1840s by a Jesuit priest, and then in the 1890s it entered into the vernacular of papal encyclicals. However, it was based on the teachings of Saint Thomas Aquinas. I don’t know where you’re getting the 1960s origins, but you’re wrong.
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Secondly, Catholic Social Justice is more than just a concept for individuals, it is meant to guide society, institutions, and governments as well. Universal Health Care. Labor Unions. Class harmony. So, again, you’re wrong Freeinpa.

“Social Justice is a code word for Communism or Nazism. Both of these vile movements used “Social Justice” as a way to change previous Governments in Europe in the first part of the 20th Century.”

Yet again a nut job fails to explain how these movements were social justice movements. Nazis…social justice…kill all non blonde haired blue eyed white people because they’re inferior…yeah, social justice. Nazi rise to power was brought about by the anger over what had happened to Germany after WWI, anger at the “others” that were seen as to blame for their economic woes (and partially they were to blame, however Germany didn’t want to take the blame for their part in it all, ie starting a war). Nazi rise to power wasn’t about social justice and anyone with any knowledge of history knows it.

As for Communism, I can at least see a tiny bit of how they could be related. Consider that the purest form of the ideals that Marx espoused were to provide for everyone no matter what, that no one should be rich while others are poor. I can see the social justice idea in there, however that’s not the social justice that most liberals and progressives preach. Yes, we want to make sure everyone is taken care of that can’t do so for themselves. Yes, we want HC for everyone and not just those that can afford a broken for profit system. No, we don’t want all the rich to give up all their money and come down to middle class or lower levels. We just don’t think it’s right that people are allowed to get extremely ultra rich (example, 500mil or more…that’s just a random number I pulled out of my butt) by underpaying people (minimum wage or less that doesn’t allow someone to live a semi comfortable life), denying them health coverage to save money even though they’d been paying premiums for years and years, or in any other unjust way.

No real Christian can justify those actions, NONE! Jesus fought against exactly those kinds of tyrants and you know it. So stop hiding behind the “voluntary giving” religious mumbo jumbo, wake up and realize that most people won’t do that because human nature is basically crappy. Hence why real, honest to goodness, communism will never work. Only perversions like what formed in USSR, China, Cuba and elsewhere.

You won’t, emmma12. No matter how hard you try to look for any links from Amy Sullivan, you shall not find any where Glenn Beck says he “hates Jesus”.
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It is merely far left liberal extremist propaganda. Brought to you free, by TIME.com and TIME Magazine. The new liberal shills spreading lies across the land.
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As TIME and all it subsidaries are dying, this is their last stand at a feeble attempt to regain some of their former self. But, what TIME has done is to use tabloid journalism in hopes of regaining some form of integrity. They, like Amy Sullivan, fail.
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Read more truth about TIME and other far left liberal extremists at:
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http://www.newfreedomblog.com

The hell with ritalin. I wanted qualudes and big ole fat doober. I graduated at the top of my class (4th) and a year early so it must have worked.

The last I heard, Glenn Beck was not the Prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, nor the Spokesperson. As a member of the Church, Mr. Beck does not represent me nor my ideals. In keeping with the teachings of our Lord, I will keep him in my prayers.

You might not find that, however you can find a picture of Glenn Beck with Jesus and Hitler on screen at the same time and no, it’s not photoshoped. All while he was doing this leave your social justice loving church thing.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Another typical arrogant misguided response. If you read or for that matter can read. I stated “In all my years of Catholic school and church, I never heard the terms “social or economic justice”.”. But miraculously you must have been seated beside me all those years because, as you state that is not true.

Arrogance or stupid? You grade at the top of the class for both. Mom must be so proud!

Judging by most of the responses here from the left you got and continue to get your wish. The drug induced haze is quite noticable in the arguments.

Beck wept.

“He directly references social justice as a term that has been historically coopted by the left.”
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Actually, from what I have read the term social justice was coined by a catholic priest, who used it to attack the Cartesian liberals or capitalists, and the communists, who were also supposedly corrupted by Cartesian thinking. The priest claimed Thomas Aquinas as his inspiration and suggested that the Cartesian (rational enlightenment) movement had destroyed a sense of community, when it abandoned metaphysics. Father Coughlin, another catholic, also used the phrase, when he came out in support of Mussulini and Hitler, who were both busy killing leftists. Of course, with idiots like Beck now teaching history, you probably think Hitler was a leftist too, correct? The fact is Christians have far more claim to the term than the Left does.

They were the tears of a clown.

It did make the music and television more interesting though. I was so far ahead of my time that medical marijuana was my idea. I was treating sh!t that I didn’t even know I had.

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/05/24/torture-and-911/

It’s good to see you on here FT. Your wit and insights are sorely missed.

Winners never quit and quitters never win. However if you never win and never quit….

Social justice is also a concept that some use to describe the movement towards a socially just world. In this context, social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution, policies aimed toward achieving that which developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity and equality of outcome than may currently exist in some societies or are available to some classes in a given society.

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While Social Justice was first coined by Jesuit Luigi Taparelli in the 1840s. The Communists, Socialist, and Nazis in the 1930′s also took the same ideas as are described above to attempt a “movement” in this country at that time.
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FDR’s grand plan for the New Deal was based upon the ideas these groups brought to his Administration at that time as well.
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Today, Barack Hussein Obama is also using “Social Justice” as his main plank in the re-organization of our country. Healthcare Reform is the first major change he wants to see occur. Next: Income Redistribution.

He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and regarded others with contempt: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.”
– Luke 18:9-14
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Just sayin’

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,1 you did it to me.’ Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
–Matt 25:31-46
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Long texts, short message: Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, or STFU. Jesus was not even a little bit ambiguous about the kind of justice he required from His followers.

Pardon me for harshing your mellow, BTW.

In the earlier days of the settlement of this great Nation, many folks left their homelands to seek out a land where they could practice their religion without persecution.

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Actually, they set out to carve their own Anglo-Protestant nation, where persecution of others was a mainstay. To add to what Patrick noted, aside from Maryland, Catholics were downright rejected in all the colonies. In fact, through the mid 1800s, Catholics could not hold public office in the United States. But, yes, the early Americans were trying to carve out a niche devoid of persecution. Sure. Tell that to the Irish. The Chinese. The Italians. The Africans. The Hispanics. What a lovely lie you tell yourself, Newfreedomblog. This country has always been a WASP nation, with pervasive Anglocentric nepotism running rampant through the inner power circles. You’re a fool if you actually buy all the rhetoric about equality, opportunity, and freedom. We’ve come a long way, for sure, but this country was not founded on such ideals.

Are you making fun of my MIL and her church?

My mellow is impervious. Harsh away. The force is strong in this one. ; )

Free~
I never disputed that you did not hear these terms in your early days. I’m disputing this statement that you made:

These terms surfaced in the late 60s and early 70s…

That is patently false, as I noted above. The terms originated in the 1800s, however, were based on the teachings of Aquinas.

““all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness—That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men.”
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In addition to being opposed to Christianity are you guys opposed to the US constitution as well? The founders didn’t seem to have a problem with the notion of equality or using the gov’t to achieve it.

Bless you! I have a feeling that I’m about to get the boom lowered on me.

You are being patently unfair by using the words and teachings that are actually in the Bible. If you’re going to play dirty, the unwashed masses are going to revolt. You need easily understandable talking points with holes in them big enought to drive a semi through. Never use a word with over seven letters and rail against socialism in every third sentence.

A background description of the Rev Wallis.
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“”First, Jim Wallis has had relationships with the communist Committee in Solidarity with the People of El Salvador (CISPES).
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Second, his “Witness for Peace” was an attempt to defend the Nicaraguan Sandinistas! Wallis, together with the Rev. Jeremiah Wright (Obama’s former pastor of 20 years) “rallied support for the communist Nicaraguan regime and protested actions by the United States which supported the anti-communist Contra rebels” (Family World News, February 2009, p. 7).
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Third, Wallis and his Sojourners community of fellow-travelers believe Fidel Castro’s Cuba, Hugo Chavez’s Venezuela, Daniel Ortega’s Nicaragua and the other revolutionary forces “restructuring socialist societies” are the communist paradises the United States needs to emulate in order to establish “social justice.” Writing in the November 1983 issue of Sojourners, Jacob Laksin notes, “Jim Wallis and Jim Rice drafted what would become the charter of leftist activists committed to the proliferation of communist revolutions in Central America” (Laksin, “Sojourners: History, Activities and Agendas” in Discoverthenetworks.org., 2005)”
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“For years, Wallis has been in the forefront of the “evangelical” left and has been fêted at numerous evangelical colleges and seminaries. That seems to be the “in” thing right now. His publication Sojourners is piled high on these campuses for the reading pleasure of the naïve and foolish.
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Unbeknown to these colleges and seminaries is Wallis’ Red background. He was the president of the radical Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) while at Michigan State University. The SDS was the youth arm of the League for Industrial Democracy – the American counterpart to the British Fabian Society founded to promote socialism throughout the West. One of the League’s mentors for years was Norman Thomas, who argued that “the American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened” (Google, Norman Thomas quotes).”

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Now if this doesn’t sound like a Rev Jeremiah Wright disciple, what does?
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Does Rev Wallis also preach “God Damn American!!!” too, Amy Sullivan? I think you should be more careful of your sources. One may think that You and TIME condone the teachings of radicals like Jeremiah Wright and Jim Wallis.

I just noticed that Amy posted this at 4:40 am. I wonder if she was up early or up late?

Next in a blog post from Amy Sullivan, “Did Glenn Beck Call The Prophet Mohammed a Dog”? as was told to Amy Sullivan by Rev Louis Farrakhan.

“I never disputed that you did not hear these terms in your early days”

You did, since by my statement I said that was when I forst heard them. I did not mention who or th eexact date by my experience. You in typical left loon fashion attacked with your overbearing sense of intellect. I merely was mentioning my experience which you knew nothing of then or now..

It also clearly explains how this nation got to where we are today

Exiled the neo-liberal:
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freeinpa did not say that Social Justice originated in the 1960′s or 70′s. He said they “surfaced” as in a re-emergence of the past.
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You Sir, are simply spinning and twisting someone else’s words to fit your own lies.

I once lived in “socialist” Europe. I lived in The Netherlands for 4 years.

Those horrible “socialist” doctors. Twice, I had to see a doctor for minor issues. It was terrible. I couldn’t get in right away. I had to make an appointment some 3 or 4 hours after I originally called for a minor issue!

And, instead of the government telling me what doctor to go to, it was worse. I had to rely on Dutch people to give me a recommendation of what doctor to see, based on the minor health problem I had at the time. Horrible. Absolutely horrible.

Yes, I get so sick and tired of conservatives bashing “socialism.” On Friday night, Amy Holmes was on the Bill Maher show. She went off on the British style of socialized medicine, citing statistics which show that breast cancer survival rates in that country were significantly lower than the rates here in the U.S. I do believe that her figures were very old figures. Although Britain still does have lower survival rates for breast cancer, the gap has closed. Further, the proposed health care reform in this country does not mimick the U.K. system.

I’m sick of these cons spreading fear and lies about socialism.

“Actually, they set out to carve their own Anglo-Protestant nation, where persecution of others was a mainstay.”

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You are a liar. Distorting of American history, in specific as to the religious rationale for leaving Europe you tell is nothing but your own personal delusions.
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Cite your sources if you can.

That’s funny!

beck should set up another red phone….specifically for Jesus to call!

From the Catholic catechism:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c2a3.htm

The words “social justice” are specfically mentioned in this document.

I want to add that many evangelicals are also upset… not just progressives. Glen Beck has hit a nerve that is at the core of the teachings of Jesus. My prayer is that more conservative Christians will choose a theology of Jesus over Beck…

http://groansfromwithin.com

The pictures side by side that Mr jdstears refers to is simply Beck’s depiction of Jesus as “Good” and Hilter as “Evil” when it was discussed in the context of “Social Justice”.
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Nice try jd.
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Debunking the lies and distortions from far left liberal extremists. Read more truth at
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http://www.newfreedomblog.com

Freeinpa~
You cannot change what you wrote. You can argue that you intended to write something else, but you cannot suggest that what you actually typed was that you first heard the terms in the 60s and 70s. Here is what you wrote:

In Catholic circles, we were taught early on that it is our duty as soldier of Christ to help our fellow man especially those who are less fortunate than we. In all my years of Catholic school and church, I never heard the terms “social or economic justice”. These terms surfaced in the late 60s and early 70s as our entire culture became a political battlefield including the churches.

So, free. Which is it going be? Are you going to stick to the falsity that you wrote you first heard them in the 60s or 70s, or are you going to reread what you actually typed and admit that your intended meaning and your actual words do not conform?
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As for this:

You in typical left loon fashion attacked with your overbearing sense of intellect.

You, in typical opposition to articulate debate, assume that any one who corrects you must be a “left loon.” It is possible, even healthy, freeinpa, for fellow conservatives to disagree on various issues. Rigidity and tribalism do not mix with rationality. We can both hold conservative perspectives and yet disagree on specifics, especially when you present an incorrect account of Social Justice. Whether that was your intention or not is a different matter, I’ll accept that you meant to write that you first heard the term in the 60s, but that is not what you wrote. Pace, fratello.

Quote: “What does Christianity mean today? National Socialism is a religion. All we lack is a religious genius capable of uprooting outmoded religious practices and putting new ones in their place. We lack traditions and ritual. One day soon National Socialism will be the religion of all Germans. My Party is my church, and I believe I serve the Lord best if I do his will, and liberate my oppressed people from the fetters of slavery. That is my gospel.” Joseph Goebbels, in his diary, 16 October, 1928.

Just exactly what church does beck want his followers to flee to? I suspect the church of glenn beck!

Doesn’t beck claim that we are “losing our freedoms?” Then he would agree that we need to “liberate….people from the fetters of slavery.”

beck is such a “religious genius”, and I suspect, a nazi to boot!

Does the left never get dizzy from all their spin??? I watch Beck and I watched that show I no way felt he was telling me to leave my church.. Unlike our President I don’t sit in a place that preaches that American’s are bad, this country is bad, or da*m our country.. I don’t need Beck or anyone else to tell me it’s time to get up and walk out.. since Churches are NOT suppose to preach SOCIAL JUSTICE I would automatically get up and walk out.. those that are spinning or just pain not capable of understanding what was said should just stay where they are they are not intelligent enough to be of use when it comes to using common sense.. and would be of no use when it comes to real HOPE, FAITH and CHARITY.. BTW I was born and raised Catholic and left the church when they hid priests that were molesting little boys and then took up the fight for illegals.. I still have faith and even MORE of it, I just no longer believe in organized religion..

The term “Social Gospel” has been considered a dirty phrase by conservatives for a while now.
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Actually, the term “Social Gospel” was considered a “dirty phrase” by theologians almost as soon as Walter Rauschenbush coined it (or at least popularized it under that title in his Theology for the Social Gospel of 1917). The Social Gospel movement emphasized the individual’s duty toward “society” as opposed to the individual’s duty towards other individuals.
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The distinction sounds small but definitely isn’t. I may not be smart enough to know what “society” is, but I can certainly identify other people.
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Amy Sullivan, do you get the distinction? Hint: which view was expressed in the Four Gospels?

I really love this controversy. GB has stepped in it like the loudmouth moron he is.

Glenn’s true religion is corporate worship. He hates social justice because that is consistent with saying corporations should have a conscience, Wall Street bankers shouldn’t be able to throw the whole economy away, simply because they want to gamble, and citizens should have some measure of prosperity, economic security, and possibility of the American dream.

But you see, much like Tom Delay, who came out this week and said the millions of unemployed Americans (victims of outsourcing and the banks trashing our economy and not making loans to small businesses as promised) are just lazy aholes who don’t deserve any unemployment, Beck, unlike Jesus, believes no consumers or citizens (except himself) deserve any rights or any chances at all to make it. So when churches contradict that with responsible social justice doctrine, he can’t handle it, just like he can’t handle anyone with a brain and a spine disagreeing with him.

Hate is not a valid side of the story, hate is not a valid political affiliation, hate cannot stand up to logic, scrutiny, the constitution, the press or the public. All Beck has is hate. It is the basis for every word out of his foaming rabid Nazi mouth, and now thank goodness the Christian masses have seen what he is about, and hopefully this is end beginning of the end for his show.

Honestly, don’t we have enough fricking problems in this country without the likes of Beck and Limbigot stirring people up and confusing them to go attack some other people they personally don’t like?

I think these racists need to be made to answer why exactly they are qualified to have shows or be experts on anything. It is like letting the Klan have a show.

Newfreedomblog~
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Actually, if he meant re-emerged, he should have written “re-emerged” or “re-surfaced.” He did not. He simply wrote surfaced. I know the subtle nuances are hard to grasp, but do try to keep up.

Anyone who has watched any clip of Glenn Beck’s that wasn’t produced by Media Matters will know that he is a God fearing Christian who prays to Jesus every day.

He donates millions to charities every year. He believes in helping the poor on a volunteer basis, he does not believe that the government has the right to take money out of your pocket and put it in another’s pocket in the name of social and economic justice. Besides, which president has plans to end the charity tax write off? That would be President Obama.

Jesus promoted helping others and the poor, but you never read about him helping out the tax collectors.

Cite your sources if you can.

Cite your own, Rusty.

Glen Beck refers to words or phrases such as ‘progressive’ or social justice’ as being a disease in America. Glen Beck is the disease. ……….

http://thefiresidepost.com/2010/02/23/glen-beck-is-the-disease-in-america/

So, if churches are not supposed to lecture on social justice, what do you think their roles are / should be?

Preach hate?
Collect money?
Support obedience to corporations?

Just in case you have forgotten, Jesus was a LIBERAL, he BELIEVED IN SOCIAL JUSTICE, and he HATED COPRORATIONS (threw the money changers out of the temple).

I never stated what he was or wasn’t trying to say with those pictures. As a matter of fact, I don’t care what he was or wasn’t trying to point out with them because I could care less. He tries to say nazi’s were progressives, christians and social justice don’t mix, and that John McCain is a progressive. Why would I take anything he says seriously and why in the name of all that is holy would I bother trying to make stuff up? I didn’t, you just chose to assume I did.

Newfreedomblog~
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Here is but a sample of what you don’t know. Enjoy the read!
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http://www.neh.gov/news/humanities/2009-05/Immigration.html

With all due respect to sechandler912,

No one is perfect, including beck.

But why in the world would we want to watch his show 4 or 5 days a week when we cannot stand the guy? Why in the world would we go to his 912project web site?

This seems to be a very consistent meme of conservatives and beck supporters…..that we need to watch the guy every time he is on the air.

Look at comment number 4 in this thread. I never heard this before, but if it is true that beck did this as a morning zoo radio jock, I have absolutely no respect for the man at all. It is examples like this that tell me the guy is a loon; he is a hate monger; he makes money off of degrading and making fun of those in pain, those who are disadvantaged, those who are not as well off as he is.

I have seen and heard plenty enough about beck. I do not need to watch his show 4 days a week to know what a jerk and hate monger he is.

Exiled, free is here just to argue, makes no difference if you are conservative or liberal. I recommend that free read the link provide in Post 30. For those of us with a Catholic background, it is a good reminder of what it is that we were taught.

I’ll ask my MIL to request a prayer circle for Mr. Beck at her church this evening. They’ve had four in the last 13 days. All four took the A-train to heaven. They’re batting a 1000. Of course the average age of the flock is dead so maybe I shouldn’t read too much into it. At least she’s been out of the house and at the funeral parlors so it hasn’t been all bad.

I just looked at your comment again….thought you said listen to him 4 days a week. No, you said “4 hours a day.” That’s even worse. Who has time to listen to such gibberish and hate 4 hours a day?

Honestly, beck is a propagandist. He shows the same video day in, day out, week after week. I saw him showing hitler marching through the streets with nazis last year, all the while talking about Obama. I saw him do this multiple times. This is propaganda, Sechandler912. There is absolutely no way a sane person would watch beck 4 hours a day for a week. It’s propaganda!

Not everyone can donate millions, or even $100, or have the free time or ability to do charity work because they’re underpayed, overworked and have to spend all their waking moments trying to survive. I’m glad Beck and others will donate money but guess what, that alone isn’t enough. It never will be. Taxes go hand in hand with government, deal with it. Government is supposed to take care of it’s citizens, protect them from foreign AND domestic problems. Guess what, domestic problems include fat cat asshats not providing HC because they might not make a profit. Domestic problems include piss poor wages that a single person couldn’t live on let alone a family with 2-3 kids. Domestic problems include people getting payed differently and hired less because of race, religion, sex, sexual preference, appearance and more. Yay, Beckie Boy donates money. Big deal. Unless his donations and those of others make it so that everyone can give so freely then it doesn’t matter.

Does Amy Sullivan hate Jesus? Glenn Beck? Conservatives?

I am really trying hard to get a grip on her blog message. Perhaps she thinks her explosive headline will destroy Beck’s ratings.

First and foremost I am not a Mormon so I am not a protector of his beliefs. I am a Christian first and a conservative secondly. Before I lost my ability to walk I spent time going to Skid Row, Echo Park and other places around Los Angeles feeding the poor and never saw to many liberals hanging about.

I spent time in Chicago and never saw to many liberals hanging around where the “least of them,” lived. Now areas where the poor owned color TV’s, cars, cell phones, DVD players with lots of food stamps, there always seemed to be numerous of social benefit offices with doors wide opened beckoning the downtrodden. The less poor folks are asked to vote with their benefits, not so much with their pocketbooks

Skid row residents usually don’t vote, but their souls are just as important as Obama’s ( or Bush’s ).

So Amy why are are taking up arms against a TV host who likely you never met. Does your liberal blood boil at the thought of limited government or do you you have nightmares of FOX news eroding your base.

Next blog tell us how you love Jesus, not how some else hates Him and perhaps what the great commission means to your personal life.

For whatever good, I will add that I was once a rabid liberal and leader of a Communist backed anti-war group in the 1960′s, studied Journalism under liberal professors in Southern California in the 90′s plus being a retired opinion columnist, so I have been to the pit and know well what lies there. I sort of like it here better.

I have multiple sclerosis and also am all to familiar what government run health care is like. There are some good points but mostly not so great. I think we could have fixed the weak points long ago, but never, never, never let the government have total control of your health or they will own you.

“Nuff said

Derek, you’re quoting the DOI and not the constitution. And it doesn’t call for gov’t to provide for natural rights, since it quite unequivocally states that those rights are provided by “the Creator”, but that gov’ts should not inhibit or work against those rights.

It’s kind of a big difference.

Only a kindergartner could put Nazis and Communists in the same boat.

They had two things in common:
1) Complete control by the dictator to fulfill their fantasy world.
2) The mass murder of all enemies real or perceived.

Communists wanted to kill: Social democrats, clergy of all religion, political centrists (such as Democrats and Republicans), business owners and, more than anybody else, fascists.

Fascists wanted to kill: Social democrats, political centrists (such as Democrats and Republicans), perceived “inferior races” (an absurd notion not worth explaining other than that it included Jews and Gypsies with some hatred for Eastern Europeans) and, more than anybody else, Communists.

This is 0% similar to anything related to Centrist (Democratic Party) 21st century clergy promoting programs which in their opinion best serve the needy.

denjudge: Think Stockholm Syndrome.

What reason can the teacher have for eating with the tax collectors and those who disregaurd the law? “People who are in good health do not need a doctor, sick people do.. Go and learn the meaning of the words It is mercy I desire and not sacrafice. I have come to call not the selfrightteous, but sinners.”:

Any one want to tell me the relevant difference between “social justice” or “economic justice” and justice?

There is only justice and injustice, right? Thus, one having more power or wealth than another should simply be unjust.

Obviously it is much easier to argue a disparity in power is unjust than it is to argue a disparity in wealth. But by conflating the two while adding it to an important concept like justice, it becomes used as a euphemism for a political agenda.

As it is noted in this blog post, the Nazarene spoke about justice, not “social justice” or “economic justice.” So if someone would like to tell me the relevant difference between social/economic justice and justice, I’d be most appreciative.

You sound like the type of person Beck would bash. He’s routinely gone after people that once said they had communist sympathies or ideals but now say they’re not. He’s claimed that once a liberal always a liberal. That’s, in my opinion, what’s ultimately wrong with him. He likes to brag about how he’s changed from an alcoholic and what not to a god fearing man, yet anyone else that makes a change (at least those that he don’t say and do as he requires of people) aren’t allowed to have that change. For them it’s always that they’re just pretending, at least that’s how Beck spins it.

As for your HC experiences and stuff, I wouldn’t know firsthand so those I will leave be and wish you well and hope any of the bad parts get better for you.

.jdspears says…
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Government is supposed to take care of it’s citizens, protect them from foreign AND domestic problems.

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You forgot “Redistribute the wealth”. After you get your healthcare provided for you by tax payers, what do you want next Mr jdspears?
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Buy everyone a pony? Put pink cadillacs in everyone’s driveways?
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Get a job and work for it slacker!! That’s the American way!!

Damnit neo, you beat me to the surfaced vs. re-surfaced point.
In any case, while freeinpa can say all he wants about when he first heard the terms (and I have no doubt that he is telling the truth here), it is clear that the point f his post is to label social justice as a 60′s-originated, DFH idea. As you point out, that is wrong in terms of the history of the Catholic church. When opinion (in this case, freeinpa’s understanding of traditions within his church) meets fact (the actual historical account), fact must win if there’s to be any solving of problems in this country.

Anyone who has watched any clip of Glenn Beck’s that wasn’t produced by Media Matters will know that he is a God fearing Christian who prays to Jesus every day.

Really? As someone who is supposedly a god-fearing Christian, Beck seems filled with a lot of hate. And not just in the context of this post, I mean in general. Where is the cheek-turning, the saving of liberal souls, etc, etc?
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If you can’t be bothered practicing, you have no business preaching.

The link is working. They’re coming out of the woodwork now. What a shame I have to go to work soon. I mean I have to go spend my unemployment and welfare checks on crack and satellite dishes.

My respect for Wallis soars. Thank you for the biographical brief.

BTW, the Sandinistas represented a legitimate and popular socialist movement in Nicaragua, but somehow they were, to you, evil, and it’s your opinion that any Americans who supported the voice and wishes of the Nicaraguan people are evil? Did I get that right?

Be prepared to not like me, then. I am an American leftist, a social democrat, a non-theist; one who firmly believes that America is today the world’s number one rogue nation, an over-militarized monstrosity of a nation that one day in the not too distant future is destined to trip and impale herself on her own sword.

Reverend Wright said, “God damn America.” Wright was spot on in his fervor. I suspect, in fact, that if God was other than a human construct, ‘He’ would undoubtedly already have done just that.

Unfortunately, we are doomed by fate to have to wait for human intellect to get the job done, to effect Social and Economic Justice for all people everywhere. It promises to be a long wait, I fear.

To Ktorrent

I agree that it is great to have ideals and to have the ability to see reality. I also agree that the government cannot and should not supply all needs to the populace. I also find the actions of some Christians in regards to actually performing the charitable acts that, in a way, define your gods teachings. He preached that each individual was important to the whole of humanity, and each must act according to his (or her) own consciences. But what is government but a collections of individuals acting (ideally) for the betterment of the whole, put there by the people of their state, and this country for just that purpose.

As for what you want? You have no more right to an opinion than do the “least of these”. It is clear our systems imposes poverty and sickness on a significant percentage of our population. As it is clear that 17 percent of our economy (the health insurance industry and it’s horrific consequences) is based on the killing through neglect of 25,000 Americans annually. Whatever your beliefs, if cannot see giving up a few shekels when you make a purchase so that fellow Americans will not be needless killed, then I submit you have no morals.

If you, as a Christian, can support legislating your morality, you should be forced to live in a country under Shia law at least until your daughter is beaten in the streets for not wearing a veil. Perhaps you will see how the rest of us feel when your representatives put banning of abortion (which you would not get anyway) and those who want them (you know the folks who don’t share your morals but hope they have the freedom not to follow your rules) above saving the lives of adult Americans.

Shame on you and shame on Beck

Newfreedomblog~
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What? No retort? If you’re spending a bit of time looking for some way to discredit the author of the article, you could just fall back on the fact that he is an Italian-American. That should suffice.

Tell the truth sacredh, you and your brood all worship Satan and hold Pagan rituals in your backyard sacrificing the little girls you abduct.

The topic of ‘socialized’ medicine needs to be addressed intelligently. I am a Canadian, and I am ever grateful for the medical care that we have. An example: I live on a remote island off the west coast, we have a population of about 1000, and are two ferry rides away from the nearest town, hospital etc, no ferries run at night. We have an ambulance and a paramedic team, also a doctor, and a nurse practicioner but anything serious needs to be dealt with off island. A few months ago I slipped and fell and smashed my wrist very badly—compound fracture. It was night time, and I live alone. I called 911. the ambulance came, they called the coast-guard, and I was taken over to town, this took about 5 hours, because of where I live, and it was rough night the ocean. I was in surgery by 6.30 AM, and then was kept in the hospital for 3 days to be treated with antibiotics. Since then I have been seeing a therapist weekly, and have had a number of follow-up visits with the surgeon. All of this cost me, well, just my monthly fee which is $54/month (maximum payment, linked to income) A while ago there was a nationwide survey conducted by CBC radio, asking Canadians to cast their vote for the most admired Canadian of all time, the hands-down winner was Tommy Douglas who introduced socialized medicine to the province of Saskatchewan when he was premier there, the model that was adopted by the then (Conservative) federal government. As a taxpayer I cannot think of a better way for my money to be spent.

I was raised a Catholic in the 60′s and 70′s, and I also do not recall ever hearing the words “social justice.” However, that does not mean those words did not exist. It’s more likely that I just don’t remember them because I see those words are used in the Catholic catechism.

According to the document below, it looks as if those very words were used as early as 1928 (and probably earlier, as others in this thread have pointed out).

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c2a3.htm

About the Daily KOS…..I hardly ever look at the site. But I will say this. The difference between what you are trying to point out in the Daily KOS and what beck says is that beck has a very large TV and radio audience. I believe he has something like 2.5 to 3 million cable viewers a day.

There are kooks on both sides of the political spectrum, but I am quite sure that beck’s nonsense and propaganda gets to many more people than the Daily KOS does.

sechandler912

First, even though I am not practicing at all, I think it is safe to say that Catholics have, due to being one billion in number and two thousand years old (give or take four hundred years) have a welfare network which far surpasses Mormons. (No, not having any horse in this game I would not say one or the other is the “true faith”.)

Second, with the ideals of Christianity being all about charity and giving, there are endless numbers of good deeds any Christians can find to do. Even if we were like Norway, Sweden or Denmark, there would still be kind things to roll up your sleeves to do like visit lonely old people to cheer them up, for example.

It seems as you are saying that if the government does all of these compassionate things successfully, there will no good deeds left to do and you will be forced, by default, into a life of sin, damnation and atheism.

Besides the fact that those countries have less crime and unrest than we do, they all permit religion as much as we do. You can ALWAYS find more ways to be kind should you wish to.

I guess I’m just too dumb for most of this. I don’t understand why we, Americans, have been so disgusted with our country and our government for so long, yet chose to do nothing about it. It seems like we’ve been having these kinds of discussions for the last 30 or 40 years. Are we ever going to actually DO anything about it? No wonder we spend so much money on therapy, and anti-depressants, and gastric bypass surgery, and plastic surgery, and on and on. We’re all disgusted with ourselves, but don’t know what to do about it.

Exiled:

You are all knowing and omnipotent and can clearly argument the what the meaning of “is” is. Guess what I am thinking now!

allthingsinana

And the left is here to denigrate, name call and attack anyone of conservative belief regardless of topic or intent. Of course, it is all done with only the high mindedness and brilliant intellect that only liberals can muster. When you are not bashing Bush, Palin, Cheney, Beck or Limbaugh you rush out to kick puppies and boo bad landings at airports. Maybe one day that psuedo-intellect will be used for something worthwhile.

One can only hope!

Anon~
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I agree, I take freeinpa at his word when he says that he did not hear the term until the 1960s or 70s. But, that is simple backtracking from what he original wrote, which was that the term first surfaced at that time. I don’t think he was referring to it surfacing in his ear canal, either. In any case, he’s misrepresenting the tradition and history of my Church, and that simply will not do.

From one Christian to another, thank you so much for the Word this Sunday, FT.

First off, it’s sTears, learn to read. 2nd, I didn’t forget redistribute the wealth because that’s not what I believe in. If there is to be no HC by tax dollars then the military and congress need to get rid of their systems and go into the private sector. Way to jump the shark there and make assumptions that prove to be wrong.

You’re 1 right assumption is that I need a job…I apply for any job I can find. However, your assumption that I’m a slacker has no basis in fact or reality. Every job I’ve ever had I was considered one of the most reliable and hardest working employees There’s almost 16% unemployment in my area so it’s not quite that easy. Considering I have nothing but outstanding reviews and evaluations from my previous employers (which include a school, retail stores, and the Military…yes, the military which I served in for 6 years) and I still can’t find a job. Maybe it has nothing to do with being a slacker and more to do with no jobs out there, a lot of our jobs having been moved overseas, and for a lot of employers the inability to hire more and provide any benefits because the cost of for profit insurances is too high.. It’s assholes like you that jump to conclusions about people that are screwing up this country.

Personally, when it comes to health care I think we should have a Medicare for all kind of system WITH private sector supplementals so that way BASIC care is tax covered and anything more then that is out of pocket because yes, I believe the govt should HELP (not fully) provide basic care for its citizens. I am not one of those people that would have a problem with paying a little more in taxes to help provide for my fellow man. If my wife, who’s a teacher, were to add me to her insurance it would cost almost 1k more a month….for 1 person…who hasn’t had anything worse then a cold in over 10 years. How in the hell is that a workable situation?

In the never ending battle to teach the stupid and mis-informed of the world, God gave us the dictionary to the English language.
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“sur·faced, sur·fac·ing, sur·fac·es
v.tr.
To provide with a surface or apply a surface to: surface a table with walnut; surface a road with asphalt.
v.intr.
1. To rise to the surface.
2. To emerge after concealment.
3. To work or dig a mine at or near the surface of the ground
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“Be gone trolls, you simply distort the truth”

Excellent commentary again, FT.

If I’m too lazy to go to the church next door, I’m not going to worship Satan just because his church has a salad bar and a happy hour. I’m not about to mess up my lawn with bonfires and sacrifical altars. I work hard on my yard and the landscaping and blood attracts ants. The only sacrifices I’m willing to indulge in are throwing steaks on the grill.

Free,

When I was young we had something very similar to that concept with a group (in a very wall street conservative town – where many wall street traders lived) called the “Peace and Justice Committee” which was a discussion group involved in non-political good deeds.

My father was an usher, my mother was in the choir, I was an alter boy and I know this was not a Marxist nor Fascist place in the least.

The concept of Social Justice is very, very old. The Vatican does not specify any particular political means to a just and peaceful world other than it may not be by a means which is unjust and violent (hence, not Communist nor Fascist, but democratic).

Glenn Beck, basically, called YOUR priest and YOUR parish either Fascist or Communist.

So, if this is absurd enough to make you laugh, then Glenn Beck is a moron.

Free~
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I didn’t have to speculate as to what you were thinking. I merely took your words at face value, that is to say, I applied the generally accepted definitions of your words to extrapolate the meaning. Intended meanings aside, you wrote what you wrote. Simple as that. Rather than continue this nonsensical exchange, how about you just clear the air by conceding that the Social Justice Theory of the Catholic Church pre-dates the 1960s. Concede the origins found in the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas and concede that the specific term was first coined in the 1800s. If you continue to maneuver around what was said and what was meant, while ignoring these facts, then there will continue to be confusion.

These are very, very good questions.

Anybody want to bet on when this puppy tops out? I’m going to say less than 300.

They’ll never do anything about it because, for the republicans, fear of the govt is a big money maker. Same reason they’ll never actually try hard to get Roe v Wade overturned, it makes them more money in donations to talk about how bad that decision was. For the dems they won’t change stuff because they make their money off vilifying anyone that doesn’t want to pay more taxes to help out the less fortunate…oh wait, that’s really not a bad thing to want to help out others. Still, it’s easier to complain about stuff on either side and use it for fund raising then to fix it and find a new way to raise funds.

Newfreedomblog~
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So, you are suggesting that what Freeinpa meant was that the term Social Justice emerged in the 1960s after a period of concealment? Given that the concept was never concealed, it was always present following the official papal encyclical in the 1890s, then this definition does not accurately reflect reality either. Besides, when someone says that a concept surfaced at a particular point in time, the meaning is not that it re-emerged, but rather than it arose at this time.

There is nothing to refute, Exiled-neo-liberal. You simply cited one OPINION of a historian who happens to be a professor in Boston.
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His credibility lies simply with those who came to this country from 1892 through 1926 or there abouts.
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My review was on the “Founders” of this country that pre-dated the Revolutionary War. Those who created the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, not just Washington, Jefferson or Franklin either. If you read the church histories you shall find they came to this country to seek out a land that was free from religious persecution. To practice their religion in their specific areas they settled. Period.
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I will not argue there was not some forms of discrimination after the “Great Migration. Nearly 100 years after the people I speak of first stepped foot into this land.
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Again, cite relevant sources if you want to engage, otherwise take your trolling to someone else’s comments.

free when have I ever called you a name? You are the first with the name calling and first with accussing the other person of it.
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Realy, you get my hackles up, and I find it, for the most part, best to avoid you. Even when we agree.

“Derek, you’re quoting the DOI and not the constitution. And it doesn’t call for gov’t to provide for natural rights, since it quite unequivocally states that those rights are provided by “the Creator”, but that gov’ts should not inhibit or work against those rights.

It’s kind of a big difference.”
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Thanks for the correction. How gov’t acts to not work against those rights is obviously a topic of argument. For example, the old argument of positive versus negative liberty pits liberals against each other with respect to the role the gov’t ought to play. I use liberal in this context to refer to both republicans and democrats.

New,

Check your history and you will find out that, until they were too powerful to shut out (arguably a cowardly move to change this stance) Nazis were excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church.

Communists – real Trotskyites, Leninists, Maoists and Stalinists advocated making religion ILLEGAL.

So, taking a benign and vague concept of “Social Justice” and saying that religious groups are advocating TOTALITARIANISM is pathetic and absurd.

If you attend a church, I can easily imagine that your preacher/priest/minister/Rabi/Imam believes that it is good when sick people get to go to doctors. This is so dissimilar to any totalitarian concept that it is moronic.

Hence, Glenn Beck is a moron.

I think Mr. Beck is just pointing out in a back door kind of way that Judas was the first Liberal (communist, socialist whatever). And that many people within churches appear to be following a similar path and that is not Jesus’ way

After all – he (Judas) worked with Jesus and knew the man and what He could and did do for the poor. And yet, Judas thought that it wasn’t enough. He begrudged Jesus getting taken care of – even though Jesus worked tirelessly. Judas felt everything should be given to the poor. Judas betrayed Jesus. Because Jesus wasn’t “good” enough. Oh Gosh- Jesus let someone massage him with expensive oil after walking and caring for the poor and down trodden – How Dreadful!

What Jesus preached was compassion for all. He sat and ate and worked with many that were considered outcasts. Jesus did not judge.

Jesus lived a life allowing people to choose – not deciding for them. He did not shun or berate the rich. He gave them insight and let them follow him or not as they chose.
He never advocated taking from the rich to give to the poor. He asked for them to choose.
He never advocated one’s not enjoying the fruits of their labors. He accepted what was given Him, shared what He could and obviously used some for Himself.

He did not advocate equal pay – as in the Parable of the vineyard laborers in Mathew 20: 1-16

In other words, Jesus asked for people to CHOOSE and to follow.

Not berate and demand and take as some churches appear to advocate.

I think Mr. Beck is warning to beware of false promises that appear to be Christlike but instead are self-serving and manipulative.

Free,

When I was a child the public schools still allowed corporal punishment and the Dioceses forbade it.

I was in public schools except for one Summer when I was a young child. I ended up looking up my educational records and found a note from the nun who taught me saying what a good little boy I was.

Judging from the strange arguments you make, maybe Ritalin or, old school, a smack on the knuckles with a ruler might make you think more clearly before you type.

Now, Free, go do your homework and, for not doing your homework before and upsetting our class you should go to confession.

The concept of justice is purely relative. It is dependent on external factors, such as social norms. For example, one might see an eye-for-an-eye, i.e. capital punishment, as justice. Whereas another may view justice as life in prison with hard labor. The theory of social justice seeks to put justice into concrete social goals that once fulfilled bring a sense of justice to society. Essentially, justice is open to interpretation, while social justice is a well-defined philosophical implemntation of one interpretation of justice.

I put a poll up on Glenn Beck’s “Insider Extreme” message board.
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Here are the results so far.
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Does Glenn Beck hate Jesus?

Yes, Glenn hates Jesus. 10% [ 1 ]
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No, Glenn does not hate Jesus. 10% [ 1 ]
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No, Glenn was not speaking about Jesus, but he was speaking about Social Justice. Two very different things. 20% [ 2 ]
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Amy Sullivan from TIME.com is a Progressive Zealot. 60% [ 6 ] x

Total votes : 10
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I’ll keep you all posted through the rest of the day.

Right,

The question is not if Mormons are morons.
I think that would have been horribly unfair.

The question is, also, not if Beck was Mormon.

The question is, is Beck a moron.

Clearly he is a moron.

He may, also, be a Mormon, but I am not going to put down any faith due to his stupidity.

The Mormons believe in a form of communism/socialism or what ever you would like to label it, called The Law of Consecration. I don’t think Glen Beck hates Jesus, but he, like a lot of christians, sure are in denial of Christianity’s socialist roots.

America in 1934 (note words four and five in the first line:

“Our sense of social justice has deepened. We have been given vision to make new provisions for human welfare and happiness, and in a spirit of mutual helpfulness we have cooperated to translate vision into reality. . . . We can truly say, ‘What profiteth a nation if it gain the whole world and lose its own soul.’ ” ~Franklin Delano Roosevelt

America since Reagan:

A nation consumed by Gluttonous Greed. America: The emergent fount of Envy, the harbor of an intellectual Sloth voluminous enough to demand the misplaced Pride of patriotic myth and a military Wrath sufficient to encourage and enshrine the eternal Lust for imperial power. America: The absolute personification of Dante’s Seven Deadly Sins.

Roosevelt had it right; his attitudes and policies ushered in several decades of unabashed prosperity along with a thrust for legislated social justice (Civil Rights, Medicare, Affirmative Action, Right to Choose, etc). Enter Reagan and the proto-Nazi conservative movement; the backward slide begins, and continually picks up speed. America dies in the process.

Please keep things stirred up while I’m at work. Jesus gave wine to children. So did Michael Jackson. That’s it for me. Heigh ho, heigh ho. It’s off to work I go.

Once again, Free, you’ve got it wrong.

The term for this is called Liberation Theology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

You must have swollen knuckles from your nuns considering how little homework you have done.

Also, Roman Catholic Priests were involved in the Sandinista movement.

Pope John Paul II banned Liberation Theology stating that it was not the role of the Roman Catholic Church to name a specific means or ideology to achieve social justice nor violence.

The Sandinistas, not totalitarian and, arguably very, very poorly managed and when faced with a new election very quietly and non-violently stepped down just as George W. Bush did when Obama became president.

If Beck had known his terminology, he would have made some sense. Liberation Theology – not social justice – is a term very, very, very anti-Fascist, non-Communist and pro-social Democratic.

So, if he said, “Beware of churches preaching liberation theology since they are, actually preaching an ideology of Social Democrats” then this would not even be an issue.

Derek sez:

“…there isn’t a single socialist government in western Europe, if by socialism you mean the government owns all means of production, which is the text book definition of the word.”

Where did you get your textbook, Derek? Here’s what the liberal Encarta dictionary says:

1. political system of communal ownership: a political theory or system in which the means of production and distribution are controlled by the people and operated according to equity and fairness rather than market principles.

At least Fox News is being “fair and balanced” in its equal-opportunity denigration of the world’s religions. First Islam (strip search all Muslims at airports), then Buddhism (Tiger Wood’s defective faith), and now Christianity (with Beck’s looniness). Combat such absurdity with satire and parody: http://www.debradeanmurphy.wordpress.com

There certainly is none of that “comment a minute” for hours enthusiasm that Joe’s post engendered. Would be very surprised if 300 happens. The folks who live in Beckistan probably don’t have a bunch of Swamp ids sitting in waiting.

Not bad synopsis … Most of our ancestors were ‘escaping’ the religion, or the religious persecutions of old Europe … they came here to escape and practice their style of religion. Some were extremely religious, and very specific to the words of the Geneva bible, and others were more liberal than their European brethren and were tired of getting kicked there for that.

A point that you didn’t address, and I think you should have is; many groups came here and were introduced to a ‘commune’ system (being overseen by a supreme leader/elder), of all that was produced going into the community pot … after several years of that keeping everyone at or very near a killing starvation, the system was changed to each family getting their own plot of land, providing for themselves, and any excess being sold/bartered/traded for what ever the market would bear … i.e. free market capitalism (Adam Smith would be proud).. Surprisingly, these radical, rabbling colonists survived, and prospered.

It also was a survival of the fittest … the dumb ones either got back on the boat and returned to Europe after a ‘good try,’ or they simply died here … only the heartiest remained, survived and prospered.

Beck’s point is: A church, government, or any other entity preaching a ‘communal’ redistribution of wealth, or giving from the rich to the poor is not what any Prophet was talking about … it is the individuals responsibility, on their own, to think ahead, work hard, prepare for the worst but have hope for the best, and when that does not work out (and it doesn’t always) ~ for their family, individual community members to provide a hand up (verses a hand-out) to keep them growing and going … it is not the Church’s ‘communal’ responsibility, but the individuals and individuals around them responsibility. “God helps those who help themselves.” Govt, either Federal, State, local or religious (communal) was not part of that…

Listen to Beck for 4 hours a day, 5 days a week? Are you kidding me? Sometimes I leave it on for a couple minutes after the hourly news but I have to shut it off. It’s because my devout LDS parents taught me to value honesty, compassion, service and other Christian values. Beck’s vile rants run against all that, and are rife with ridicule, dishonesty, misdirection, character assassination, warmongering, mean-spiritedness, etc., etc., etc. No respect for the truth or his fellow citizens.

If you have so much time, may I suggest you use it to read the Book of Mormon and the Bible? You’ll find it much more uplifting.

“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
- The Great JC of Biblical fame.

Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.

He didn’t get pissed at prostitutes, tax collectors or other sinners.

If he were a real person, he could have made Karl Marx look like a Republican by comparison.

Even though I am progressive, JC is too left wing for me to imagine making policy around.

Wondering if the far-right purportedly Christian-based hate mongers ever read and understood Romans 13 in the Bible?
Sitting in church no more makes you a Christian than sitting in a garage makes you a car. Liberal Christians need to mobilize against the use of their religion by fundamentalists to undermine our country.

Yet another horrible poll by a conservative, one of those answers has nothing to do with the actual question and skews the results. My guess is the 6 that voted for Progressive Zealot would probably have voted instead for “two different things” if the final option wasn’t there. Create polls to be accurate, even if they’re only for fun.

“Today, Barack Hussein Obama is also using “Social Justice” as his main plank in the re-organization of our country. Healthcare Reform is the first major change he wants to see occur. Next: Income Redistribution.”

Wow, newfreedomblog, you’ve figured it all out. And then after Income Redistribution, he harvests our organs for the aliens he’s made a pact with. Good thing we have people like you to warn us of these very real dangers.

You see patrick this is where you and I can agree. You say…
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“Check your history and you will find out that, until they were too powerful to shut out (arguably a cowardly move to change this stance) Nazis were excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church.”

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This is exactly my point, and the point Beck was making in his TV show that prompted this entire fantasy by Amy Sullivan.
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Once you allow those, whether they be Communists or Socialists of the past. Or, the current SEIU’s, ACORN’s or Barack Obama himself the leeway, they will endear themselves upon the masses, those who go to our Churches, and other non-suspecting souls. They will engage you, make you many promises and even give you the illusion of being “the One”. But, the goal is power. The power to determine what you can and cannot do in life. You give up freedom. Your individual rights. Their power will consume you until you are totally dependent on them to meet your basic needs.
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Simply, you lose your freedom to CHOOSE.
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I would rather die than lose my ability to choose for myself.

The day we start ignoring Beck, stop tuning in for the expected trainwrecks, is the day when he will lose the notoriety. Doesn’t anyone notice that when he has been out of the public forefront of discussion, he usually comes up with something outrageously disgusting to say so he can get your attention. He wants any attention, even negative, just so it’s attention. I wonder how he will live with himself when one day, an extremist takes his words and puts them into action to hurt someone. Will he take responsibility?

While I would argue that if a govt is run by the people, then govt owning means of production would fit the “controlled by the people” portion of the definition, I’ll approach this from a different angle.

…what European country has a market controlled by the people and operated according to equity and fairness? Name one industrialized nation that we wouldn’t consider 100% inferior to us that fits that requirement.

I agree that Jesus was very specific about justice and what we all are supposed to do. Except, I see nowhere in the scriptures where he advocates to TAKE from others to do so.

Jesus advocated freedom of choice. He led by example.
He wanted people to actively choose and understand their choices. He didn’t foist those choices on them – after all if you are made to do something, it isn’t a choice.

If you feed the poor because you have to – not because you want to, is that truly following in Christ’s foot steps?

I for one do not think so.
By demanding and creating a social construct -you diminish what Christ & God intended.

Christ wanted us to understand and believe.
God gave us the free will to choose.

Amen!!

“Social justice is the application of the concept of justice on a social scale.

The term “social justice” was coined by the Jesuit Luigi Taparelli in the 1840s. The idea was elaborated by the moral theologian John A. Ryan, who initiated the concept of a living wage. Father Coughlin used the term in his publications in the 1930s and 40s, and the concept was further expanded upon by John Rawls’ writing in the 1990s.”

“Social justice is also a concept that some use to describe the movement towards a socially just world.”

I Googled it.

So what is wrong with a just world?

I’m way beyond the point of thinking he actually means what he says.
Celebrity salary is based on exposure and attention.
I suspect Mr. Beck and his sponsors are delighted by the attention.
I congratulate Mr Beck for his American bravura. He takes home an impressive salary.

“So what is wrong with a just world?”

Republican, conservative, and other greed-based philosophies can’t prosper in a just world. Unjust worlds pay a hell of a lot better. Therefore ….

@samfrog2:

Choice, yes. If you don’t consider eternal damnation to be a “threat.”

Anyway, I don’t know of any “social justice” churches that advocate the compulsory sort of redistribution you blather about. Isn’t religion neat? You can say anything, and it doesn’t matter if it’s true, or logical, or stupid, as long as you feeeeeeel it’s right.

And Judas a communist/socialist? Please. That’s a huge stretch.

Having not read every post here, I feel compelled to risk repeating something that’s no doubt been said already:

Acts 2:44-47: All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

What a bunch of commies!

“Buy everyone a pony? Put pink cadillacs in everyone’s driveways?”

I missed that part of health care reform.

Who are these people talking about strange looking bad colored, overpriced American cars?

How is this even one percent similar to health care?

Health care is about the WORKING poor who are taking PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for their actions UNABLE to get higher paying jobs taking themselves and/or their sick children to the doctor.

What the fk does that have to do with Cadillacs in a color associated with homosexuals?

You may not know this, but only HETEROSEXAULS produce children and this about providing health care so that those of us who are or wish to be husbands and fathers or wives and mothers can provide health care to ourselves and our FAMILIES.

patricksartor

You do notice what isn’t said?

Jesus does not say a rich man cannot enter the kingdom of God. He just says it isn’t easy – probably because of the temptations etc.

I bet if the rich young man had told Jesus yes, I will give all my goods away- Jesus would have said OK. But you don’t have to. After all – Jesus certainly never asked Joseph of Arimathea to give all his goods away did he?

Also – historically – the eye of the needle was on a trade route in the Middle East – and the travelers that Jesus spoke with would be aware of that. Meaning a heavily laden camel would have difficulty in traversing the route.

In other words – It is NOT what you have that is the issue. It is what you DO.
Period.

Newfreedomblog~
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This all arose from you taking a rather impassioned offense to my comment:

Actually, they set out to carve their own Anglo-Protestant nation, where persecution of others was a mainstay.

Let’s examine this and see what, if anything, you should be taking issue with. The demographic composition of the early settlers was overwhelmingly, A) English, and B), Protestant. Fact. This is attested to by the nature of discourse in this country for two hundred years referring to the nation’s Anglo roots. On to the next point, that persecution of others was a mainstay of the early American nation. Well, let’s see. Immediately, Catholics were banned from holding public office, a legally enshrined persecution not rescinded until the late 1800s. Slavery, of course, was also present at the earliest foundation of the country and lasted also until the late 1800s. So, two blatant examples of persecution amid the founding of this country. Next, the Irish, the Chines, the Italians, and now the Hispanics. So, where did I err?

Glenn Beck and his utterances would seem to be a hearken back to the 50′s and Joseph McCarthy.

McCarthyism is the politically motivated practice of making accusations of disloyalty, subversion, or treason to enlist by shock value and peer pressure fear to contradict a lynch mob mentality of supporters.

Often McCarthyism leveraged both challenges
to patriotism, godliness in a quest to promote an agenda.

It was in such a climate in 1954 that “Under God” was
added to the pledge of allegiance, debasing the constitution and the secular nature of our nation.

Article VI – Debts, Supremacy, Oaths
…
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
…
Treaty of Tripoli
“As the Government of the United States of America is
not in any sense founded on the Christian religion”…

Our founding fathers new the dangers of such mixing of religion and government , which was why the wall of separation between church and state was erect, so as to protect each from the other.

Tis a shame that as fast as these lessons are learned they are forgotten.

Even if you despise the idea of social justice, I don’t see how you can take Beck seriously. His exaggerations when addressing any issue, his weeping, his blackboard antics and his Nazi imagery must seem over the top to even the most conservative viewer.

New,

Satan is a concept of Christianity as the world’s worst A hole.

You know, I don’t think that is such a good marketing campaign. It just doesn’t sell very well.

If you know something about Satan worship and kidnapping children, I would love it if you please informed the authorities IMMEDIATELY.

I know that if I ever had a child kidnapped I would be ill with grief for the rest of my life.

So, please do IMMEDIATELY contact either your local FBI office regarding these kidnappings or contact your local mental health professional if your these bizarre concepts persist.

neorationalist86:
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That wasn’t the most coherent explanation I’ve ever read from you.
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So…”justice” is subjective, but “social justice” is the result of theory, and so isn’t?
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What?

ktorrent – “but when you get into the reality that people are by nature consumers of things, and their needs can be defined at times according to their feelings, in the end, government cannot handle all of their needs.”

You may want to look into the life of Edward Bernays,nephew of Sigmund Freud and how in the early 20th century turned U.S. society almost single handedly from a nation of buyers of practical neccesities into a nation of irrational emotion based consumers, if you think this statement has always been so.

samfrog2,

“In other words – It is NOT what you have that is the issue. It is what you DO.”

“Whatever you do unto the least of my brothers is what you do unto me.”

So, what is it that a rich man must DO?

Besides joining his sect of Judaism (it was not separated for many years to come) and act with total compassion at all times including, giving things away when needed.

Not commies – they lived as they chose to live.

Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with people choosing to live that way. I just don’t read that giving away everything was required of any of them. That was what as a group they decided to do and that is wonderful!

Also
I was talking about the way some churches/groups through politics/government work to create a social construct. Telling people in your church how to vote – that isn’t pressuring for redistribution? Come on – get serious.

Judas did betray Jesus – you can’t spin that. And he betrayed him because he felt Jesus used something(s) that would be put to better (Judas’ term) use for the poor.
And you will note that I put Communist, socialist? with a question mark – mainly because Judas betrayed Jesus (Son of God) and communism, socialism refutes God often.

“..what European country has a market controlled by the people and operated according to equity and fairness? Name one industrialized nation that we wouldn’t consider 100% inferior to us that fits that requirement.”

All of them are superior to us because all of them have the highest taxes on the highest disposable income, the most services provided to the poor for health care, primary, secondary and higher education than so that in fairness, you can be healthy and go to the best college you are capable of going to no matter who your parents are.

Try again.

samfrog2,

“Give unto Cesar what is Cesar’s…”

Paying taxes owed, even to an UNjsut government is an obligation of Christians.

However, if serving the poor is just, as it is just for an individual to then no Christian should object.

You do know that in the countries with the most social services there are plenty of good deeds to do. You don’t have to have a society with people who are sick and poor to fulfill your Christian good deeds.

You can find a friend who is depressed about breaking up with his girlfriend (I guess a platonic girlfriend if they are devoutly Christian) and no government agency in the world can ever come up with a program to take your place.

You can still get your ticket to the pearly gates even if you live in Norway.

The political far right (FOX and Beck types) and the religious right have long believed that the social underclass deserve their status and it is of their own making, either through laziness, stupidity or as a punishment from God. This kind of thinking excuses them from all moral responsiblity to have to engage in aiding people less fortunate or sharing their wealth through taxes or charity. It is nothing more than rationalized greed cloaked in a self rightous facade. It is, of course, in direct opposition to the teachings and life example of Christ, and it is also foolish. Foolish, because there is ample evidence that helping people in need improve their life situation benefits society socially and economically.

patricksartor

Ummm – I think you pointed out my point instead of yours.

“Besides joining his sect of Judaism (it was not separated for many years to come) and act with total compassion at all times including, giving things away when needed.”

Giving away things when needed – not getting rid of everything all at once. Not giving everything away period. Not saying don’t acquire more either.

Acting with compassion. Choosing to do so. Being aware and involved.

I have never stated that being compassionate is not needed. That helping others is not needed. And that one shouldn’t do so.

So I am not quite sure what you are arguing/debating me about.
But, am willing to continue!

“So what is wrong with a just world?”

Ask your buddy Glen what is wrong with a just world!
He, not us, object to a just world,

You may have, unknowingly, called Glenn Beck a moron.

If you have, my friend, you have become enlightened.

Turn to the back of your Bible and reference “Jubilee.”

patricksartor,

Paying taxes does not make me a better person or Christian. It is only what I personally choose to do that determines that

And where do you get the idea that I feel people in Norway etc. can’t get to heaven? Or that they can’t do good? Sheesh. Reading words that are not there.

I like constructive debate because we can all learn from each other, but implying things that I never said – well that isn’t debate.

Heavy taxation for some leaves them feeling that they have done enough. They have worked hard enough and they do not have to pay attention to their neighbors. After all they all ready paid and they are tired and they have their own problems.

A socially constructed government to me, can take the humanity out of some people.

That being said – just what is the per capita volunteerism in Europe?

What is the per capita personal donations to charities in Europe?

Howard Beale.
Glenn beck is nothing less than a real life Howard Beale.
If you haven’t seen the movie Network go rent it NOW.
If you haven’t sen it in a long time go rent it NOW.
Beck is the second “incarnation” Howard Beale.
Nothing more or less.

Can his antipathy be related to the fact that Jesus and his mother were both jewish? He may feel that Jews are to blame for such incomprehensible tendencies as demanding rights as a human being when they should only be conferred solely on the rich and teh conservative?

If I understand much of anything about Jesus he was not a social conservative so he would be unacceptable to people like Beck. Why worship anyone whose social tendencies are all tangled up with imagining that the poor are fully human?

Beck is nothing but a punk, he is just trying to keep his name in the news and he is not worthy of any real discussion. What he doesn’t realize is that someday somewhere he is going to be alone without his body guards and someone is going to give him a good old fashion ass whupping…

“SEIU’s, ACORN’s or Barack Obama himself…”

Free, by your logic, then, since Barack Obama creates legislation to create a health care system then we are going to be going to Obama to seek a doctor?

Are we going to FDR or his descendants for Unemployment relief?

Are we going to Richard Nixon’s family for OSHA?

Are we going to Ben Franklin’s descendants when we want to take out a library book or place something in the mail?

What are you trying to say?

We ARE the government (I mean you, too).

If enough of us do not like what any existing or future government agency is doing we can, as individuals should it not be in line with the law, sue that agency or, as a group, vote for representatives who will change that.

This will be the case even centuries from now and nobody will have to dig up what will then be Obama’s body (one or two hundred years from now Obama absolutely will not be alive and by 2016 he will ABSOLUTELY not be the president of the United States) to go to a doctor.

By contrast, we (or at least I – maybe you own a huge amount of stock and can influence the board of directions) are not Blue Cross Blue Shield.

So, your argument should be for supporting government preventing private businesses from controlling when and how we receive medical care. Instead, apparently, you fear that your great-great grandchildren will have to go to Obama’s grave and get a sign from somebody (who knows who) that they will be able to get their tonsils taken out.

sacredh….your comments crack me up!

Speaking of wine, remember last year when beck “joked” about putting poison in Nancy Pelosi’s wine? I also remember when beck mused about killing Michael Moore……should he do it himself, or should he hire someone to do so?

The way beck talks about “progressives” seems similar to how hitler talked about the Jews. In each case, either the Jews or progressives were blamed for all of society’s problems.

I bet beck would like to see all progressives put into camps…..he did talk about camps last year…..seemed to be a popular topic of his.

beck has all kinds of conspiracy theories. I theorize that beck is a nazi; I theorize that he has maniacal homicidal tendencies!

Justice in this country is an illusion. Balance requires compensation, and compensation is not how we are running justice here. Healing, full truth, rehabilitation, service, and construction projects are compensatory. Punishment produces no compensation, but only an increasing warehouse of resentment. When you build enough resentment in civilization, you will arrive at revolution.

The most amusiong part of the day: Over 170 posts mostly about bashing Beck and religion and most of the news is silent today on the following story:

“Arriving at Harv’s Metro Car Wash in midtown Wednesday afternoon were two dark-suited IRS agents demanding payment of delinquent taxes. “They were deadly serious, very aggressive, very condescending,” says Harv’s owner, Aaron Zeff. The really odd part of this: The letter that was hand-delivered to Zeff’s on-site manager showed the amount of money owed to the feds was … 4 cents. To those who wonder why they sent two agents to collect a debt of four cents, one commenter responds: So both men could have their two cents’ worth.”
==
The left accuses conservatives of Gestapo tactics and we have the IRS descending on a small business owner (who Obama insists he is a friend) while a known tax fraud (Geithner) and tax cheat Rangel collect tax payer dollars as salary benefits and pensions.

Once again the left argues the minutia of nothing when true injustices are ignored. Also shows how much the left values taxpayer dollars; I wonder how the cost the of the 2 agents personally going to collect 4 cents compares

xargaw,

I am not quite sure of what your point is exactly – please clarify.

While The Year of Jubilee as is referenced in Christ is a release from materialism – it does not advocate goods not being owned. Do not idolize material things and possessions.

The admonition is regarding holding possessions higher than Love of God and doing God’s will.

Obviously, Joseph of Arimathea and other followers of Christ had material possessions. They did not idolize them.

From a discussion on Jubilee:

“We need to focus our attention not upon the materialism of those who don’t profess to know God but upon our own lives and how we allow materialism to dominate us”

BTW – I am what you could consider poor. But am rich in family and friends. In no way do I envy my neighbors, nor do I wish to feed off them. I have been blessed all my life with love and though times can be very difficult, somehow with God’s help I have gotten through.

“Not giving everything away period”
If one gets taxed, that is not giving away everything.

Nobody in this country or any part of Europe nor any other developed country is asking anybody to change their religion or give it up.

So, with the hardest good deeds done by government agencies, you can just go out and comfort people.

This shouldn’t be a problem.

Also, how about “when I was sick and, since you didn’t have enough to take care of my $200,000 worth of medical bills, you voted in support of health care even though it would have raised your taxes” wouldn’t that be a good, Christian thing to do?

Don’t you think Jesus would have liked that?

Even as an atheist, I think I might have an easier time getting into those supposed pearly gates than you.

My issue with RustyBlog is that he does not differentiate between the people giving and the people receiving.
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Yes, aid should largely be voluntary in a religious sense, but you cannot assume that the aid you’re giving people are going to people that willingly do not support their own families. Tragedies happen, and it’s our job as simply good people – not even religious people – to help where we can. The people that receive aid aren’t bad because they receive aid. Not everyone can get on their feet. This is inherent in pure capitalism – some people succeed and some people fail. I find it ironic that most neoconservative who preach pure capitalism and the deregulation of markets to promote it also scoff at those who are less fortunate. “Why can’t they help themselves?” some might say. When really, their situation is the direct result of the odds capitalism gives any individual to succeed.
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As a Jew, I can tell you that social justice resonates and has resonated deeply throughout the history of Judaism. Jesus, a Jew, did not coin the idea of social justice (in those terms, anyway), but rather tried to rail against an establishment that deemphasized a concept that already existed. Social justice definitely does not boil down to communism or nazism. To say thus is to disgrace all the people murdered, my family included, by these regimes.
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The point of a government is to provide for its people. Or, at the very least, to efficiently manage society for the benefit of the masses it manages. To then say that “social justice” isn’t a part of government is absurd. Protecting everyone with the ability to see a doctor when sick seems like and should be a basic right – more basic even than owning a gun (an antiquated right, but a right nonetheless).
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What I don’t understand is why the government endeavor to help the needy is suddenly being framed as a Bolshevic plot. It’s politics as usual. And this is disheartening.

I am tired of this Fuss about Glen Beck. Glenn Beck is an Idiot and sick. It is only in America that a person becomes famous and rich because of being a Moron. The long list includes Sara Palin, Rush L. etc. Glenn Beck is the worst of them.
Shame on you Glenn Beck. Please See a Doctor.

adamlaceky which western country adheres to the definition you supplied, which if you substituted the word “gov’t” for “people” would be essentially the same as the definition I provided?

Samfrog,

What are the exact volunteer rates in Norway – the most progressive country in the Western World – compared to the US.

When you know that, please tell me what they were in the nineteenth century so that we can be even possibly sure that this lack of volunteering is due to paying more taxes and not due to other cultural factors.

Unfortunately New York City (still a part of the US last I checked) has some of the lowest volunteer rates matching the longest combined work hours and comuting hours combined.

The US has the least vacation time of anywhere in the developed world, so, I would think a more labor/progressive government leading to more vacation time and shorter work hours would lead to more, not less, volunteering.

I’ve been planning to volunteer for things, but, have only singed up for one thing which has not yet started mostly due to time constraints.

I do know that religion in Western Europe – most notably the most progressive countries – has been declining and that may be due to people not going to houses of worship for care and, therefore, not owing or feeling like they owe a thank you to those churches.

“Where in the Bible does it say that the government is supposed to take money from the rich and give it to the poor? It doesn’t -

1. The Bible says give from your own wealth as in private charity (numerous places)
2. The Bible calls for low taxes (see Solomon)
3. The Bible repeatedly rips kings in many eras for over taxation
4. The Bible says pay your taxes
5. The Bible praises a tax collector for giving back his taxes to the people he took it from
6. A disciple of Jesus was a former tax collector and was an example of how people Jesus would reach out to people of the lowest profession – which were tax collectors and prostitutes.
7. The Bible says true religion is caring for widows and the fatherless – on your OWN dime

Social Justice is simply stealing from the rich such that they cannot fund new companies and create new jobs is a crime. Private Charity is focused giving that meets the needs of people precisely. Most government charity results in dependency. Look at what social justice housing projects bought the black community over the past 40 years.”

Why does Glenn Beck or any other Christian need additional principles or values to apply, when he does not apply those provided by God? Didn’t God (through Moses) provide rules to live by? Mr. Beck violates at least one of those just about every day that he’s on the air. The 9th commandment (8th in some denominations) is basically: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor” Beck’s entire shtick is ‘bearing false witness’ – he is often careful(although not always successful) to not outright lie, but he completely twists facts for the purpose of slandering his imaginary villain of the hour/day.week.

I do listen to his radio program, not 3 hours a day but frequently tune in while driving. Fortunately or unfortunately I don’t get to hear a lot because I usually change the station when I can no longer stand hearing the falsehoods he regularly spews.

I would argue that he violates several other of the commandments, but that’s for another day. He’s a hypocrite!!

But freeinpa, this is the world Obama and his minions want to create. A place where they do not have choice. A country that provides for their every need, want and desire.
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But, You and I realize that if you continually want, but do not give, sooner or later the government fails. It simply goes bankrupt. No one produces, and everyone consumes.
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That is why communism and socialism will never work. That is why the libtards will never see a country they believe is the utopian ideal of “Social Justice” will ever work.
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If they were honest, they would acknowledge that they themselves have never worked in their lifetime for a poor man. That in our system, our Capitalist system there are people 1 or 2 % who are very rich. There are also those, 10 maybe 15% woh are very poor. Then there are the rest.
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But, in over 230 years as the system has worked NO ONE, not one of them who expouse the philosophy of Barack Hussein Obama’s “Social Justice” theory will be denied the great success or wealth in their lifetime if they choose to do so. That is America. If you choose to put in the hardwork, you can attain any level of success imaginable. You can also choose to be dependent on the Government and collect welfare.
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I choose individual freedom and personal reponsibilty for all citizens. They choose a commie/socialist-like neo-capitalist world which will never work, and leave many more people starving and wanting more freedom. They choose to end the dream because they are either too stupid to acheive it, or too lazy to work for it.

Emmma12-
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No, Glenn Beck did not say he hates Jesus. However, He did compare social justice to communism & nazism, both of which decried religion as false and evil.
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But wait! Who preached social justice, and in the process founded the world’s most prominent religion…
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You guessed it! JESUS!!!
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The title is essentially a hook.

patricksartor
Ummm….
Putting words in my mouth that I have never said.
Where in my post did I say I was more likely to get into heaven than you or any other person? Not once.
In fact, I believe in God’s Grace, and so cannot presume that I will get in or even get in to heaven ahead of, after or beside anyone else. I live in this world and am prone to all the faults that every human being is. I make poor choices at times and good choices at others.
And I believe athiests can get heaven. Why? Because I believe in God’s Grace and his power to look into someone’s true heart. If you live and care for the poor, the weak, the ill and love them – then you have done God’s work – even if you don’t believe in Him.

As to taxation – I have no problem with it – within reason. Many programs are poorly implemented and not thought through. Many programs are duplicated.

What I would prefer is local communities helping each other as much as possible on a personal level.
I understand in larger cities that is harder to do – but not impossible.
And where I come from – you need medical help that you can’t get because it is too costly? We have a fundraiser and get it. Including a heart/lung transplant for a young mother of three. I have NEVER turned down a request for help. And if I can’t help, I work with others to find a way.

So Please, don’t say because I may think a health care plan (or any other government plan) is poorly written (it isn’t even written yet) that I don’t want to help someone. That is absurd.

@adamlaceky
“Acts 2:44-47: All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

What a bunch of commies!”

No that is charity. Communism is when the government takes your money and gives it to somebody else. No matter how you spin it they are 2 diff rent things. One is giving your own (in this case food) to someone else and the other is the government taking the food from one person and giving it to another because they think that person #1 has to much.

Charity – Give
Communism – Take

Why don’t I hear this same “TAKE from others” argument about funding wars, policing, and the punishment system, that no man is authorized to do by God?
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However, when it comes to things that help people’s lives, If you take taxes from me to pay for it, all of the so called, Christians are there to fight it?
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Would the real Christians please stand up and explain that one?
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What God do you really serve Christians? You realize, Christians, that in the Bible there are TWO Gods Jesus refers to on a regular basis!

This is what happens when a black man becomes president. Many white people are scared to death of Obama. And what do people do when they’re scared? They’ll look for anyone who can give them a ‘justification’ for their fear. Unfortunately, when a crackpot like Beck has a ‘bent’ about ‘Is President Obama a racist’? Followed by, ‘Look at all these ‘socialists’ in Obamas administration. Religion and ‘social justice’ are not far behind. He’s really become a ‘propaganda minister’ which is really ironic because, he’s warning everyone that we’re two steps from a dictatorship. Not only does he believe all this manure that he shovels, he believes he’s been given this ‘platform’ by God. For me, that’s much scarier than a black president. That’s my two cents.

I apologize. Let me correct myself: Two DIFFERENT Gods!

“Where in the Bible does it say that the government is supposed to take money from the rich and give it to the poor? It doesn’t -

..
Where does it say that our government (and our country) was founded upon the bible? Yeah, it doesn’t.

His sponsors for Fox are down to gold scammers and survival seeds. Colbert did a funny bit on the seeds. He pointed out, in his witty way, that seeds that should cost cents sell for $149 dollars. That the company’s website predicts a 1 year window for preperation for survival and has been doing so for 3 years.
Scammers are sponsoring the scammer.

1) You two do realize, I hope, that the IRS is a Civil Service job and not done by appointees so that exactly the same IRS incident could have and probably did happen under GWB Reagan or Herbert Hoover.

2) Unless you would like to call yourselves lazy, I would like to know what private jets you fly around in. Clearly if potential is truly anywhere near unlimited (or anything other than highly limited to what you were born into) both of you should be multi millionaires.

Do your homework and find out how small that class mobility is.

Since it is hard to find online and do not spend my entire life on explaining huge errors to conservatives, please look it up yourselves and you will realize that education is a massive determinant of your lifetime income and your parents’ income is a huge determinant of your education level making class mobility far rarer and smaller than any conservative would ever imagine in their worst nightmares.

@patricksartor and @iddeussee

Is it socially just if you make people bend to your will? We don’t agree but i feel that you have a right to think how you want and do what you want with your time and money. You would like the government to decided how much you can keep or are worth. Is that just?

Before talking to me about charity how about leading by example. 6.1% of your income only when you figured out that you where going to be running for president? Charity starts at home.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/03/obama-releases.html

Glenn Beck is the one who is the problem. I hesitate to call any American a Nazi, since the name is so repugnant, but Mr. Beck uses the term easily. As I remember, the Nazi’s came to power as a minority. They sowed dissent and attempted to stir up the baser and more primitive beliefs individuals held. Germany was an educated and cultured country before the Second World War. People were manipulated and flames of hatred were fanned. Mr. Beck would have been right at home. He even posed in the right uniform for the cover of his recent book.

The Mormon (LDS) Church, which Beck joined (he was not born into the Church) is legendary for its intolerance toward African Americans. It was not until the 1970s that Blacks could generally be ordained. Beck, who so easily has called Obama a racist, uses the discredited Jonah Goldberg’s “scholarship” as a basis to explain that the Nazis (who gated Communists, Socialists, leftists, intellectuals, gays, Roma and Jews) were some how “leftists.” Beck revers the “Founding Fathers,” who were in fact well-educated East Coast elitist cosmopolitan intellectuals who spoke could French — just the sort of person Beck rails against on a daily basis. Beck cannot (will not) distinguish between early 20th Century Wilsonian Progressives and their contemporary more enlightened, less racist counterparts. He knows exactly what buttons to push.

His response to critics is to bring out the boggyman Rev Wright and to demonize Wallace as a socialist shill for Obama. That is what he does.
I was recently on a chat with a Beck cultist. A nice person to chat with but totally in thrall of Beck. We discussed Beck’s anti-social justice remarks. His only response was to agree it was disturbing but he new Beck would clear up what he said.
It is scary.

What a stupid title. Anyway, all religions are kooky. The comfort and solace that religion brings comes as a terrible price. I’m generally conservative, but Bill Maher is right when he says we must either “grow up or die” and realize how otherwise very rational people become irrational when it comes to religion and that in the age of nuclear weapons this is extremely scary.

That should be boogyman. I don’t know what boggyman is…maybe something like the swampman.

patricksartor

Re: Volunteer rates – That is what I asked you, remember?

Not that I know. I do now that America has the highest per capita rate of giving/volunteerism in the world.

As to earlier, historical comparisons – well historically, communities all over the world took care of themselves and looked out for their neighbors – otherwise the communities wouldn’t survive.

For an example, look at the hurricane devastation in Galveston Texas in 1900. Rebuilt and people taken care of – without taxation. People helping people and doing as right as they could for the times.

As to your volunteering – that is good. To do what you can do, when you can do it. Like everyone else, you have things you must do – taking care of family, paying bills. It is hard to fit things in, when you can that is wonderful. When you sacrifice something else so you can fit it in – that is even more wonderful

As to NYC and wages – well – People who work in Manhattan have the highest taxes in the world. So they work more and therefore do not have time to volunteer because they have a life too and often feel that they have already given through taxes. I think your comments kind of prove my point more than yours. Plus many of the companies these people work for donate large sums to charities all over the world.

As to vacation time – doesn’t always make you take care of each other in Europe even with lots of vacation time. Don’t you remember how many elderly were killed in France a few years back during the heat wave while everyone was on vacation? Families did not check in on their elderly relatives. Even with a 6 week vacation.

I wish I could find the post regarding from an athiest in England who wrote about a Salvation Army Captain. Very compelling and wonderful. When I do – I will post it for you to view.

As I said before, it is not what you say, or have. It is what you do.

@diecash1
Way to change the point of the conversation. I think the title is “Why does Glenn Beck hate Jesus” not It the United States a christian nation.

Glenn says social justice (government taking from one and giving to another) is bad
Time writer says Jesus is for social justice (the take from the rich give to the poor type)

I said where in the Bible does it say that?

How does your comment have anything to do with the current topic?

Where in the bible is civil rights?

Where in the bible is there democracy?

Where in the bible is any universal condemnation of slavery?

All of those are examples of “Social Justice”.

Where in the bible is the term “personal responsibility”.

Where in the bible is their reference to Personal property?

Where in the bible is the word “abortion”?

Sorry this didn’t get posted correctly – not on this thread

patricksartor

Re: Volunteer rates – That is what I asked you, remember?

Not that I know. I do now that America has the highest per capita rate of giving/volunteerism in the world.

As to earlier, historical comparisons – well historically, communities all over the world took care of themselves and looked out for their neighbors – otherwise the communities wouldn’t survive.

For an example, look at the hurricane devastation in Galveston Texas in 1900. Rebuilt and people taken care of – without taxation. People helping people and doing as right as they could for the times.

As to your volunteering – that is good. To do what you can do, when you can do it. Like everyone else, you have things you must do – taking care of family, paying bills. It is hard to fit things in, when you can that is wonderful. When you sacrifice something else so you can fit it in – that is even more wonderful

As to NYC and wages – well – People who work in Manhattan have the highest taxes in the world. So they work more and therefore do not have time to volunteer because they have a life too and often feel that they have already given through taxes. I think your comments kind of prove my point more than yours. Plus many of the companies these people work for donate large sums to charities all over the world.

As to vacation time – doesn’t always make you take care of each other in Europe even with lots of vacation time. Don’t you remember how many elderly were killed in France a few years back during the heat wave while everyone was on vacation? Families did not check in on their elderly relatives. Even with a 6 week vacation.

I wish I could find the post regarding from an athiest in England who wrote about a Salvation Army Captain. Very compelling and wonderful. When I do – I will post it for you to view.

As I said before, it is not what you say, or have. It is what you do.

freeper: That posting was taken down by Kos. Have you ever read the hate that comes ouf to freeper sites like Free Republic or on Fox News blogs. They are never removed.

Sacredh, patricksartor, samscotts, bmolly……

All excellent points. But, Bmolly, you’re a brave person for tuning into beck while driving. I don’t know if beck is on a radio station where I live, but I know limbaugh is……and I won’t listen to limbaugh when driving because he might cause me to wreck my car!

iamsouce,

I don’t see anyone in this thread of comments advocating or not advocating anything regarding what you have posted.

The comments I made are in conjunction with all taxation and their implementation. My comments are mostly on the personal choices we all make and how we live our lives.
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Generalizations don’t add to debate.
If you do not believe in war – than you should not have to contribute to it. You should be able to direct the tax money to an area of where you feel it will do the most good.

Please don’t imply or put words into my statements that are not there.
Thank you.

You were busy conflating the bible and our government. I merely pointed out that they are not related.
..
Here’s some on point commentary for you:
..

Private Charity is focused giving that meets the needs of people precisely.

..
Really? Have you looked around America or the world recently? Private giving is nowhere close to meeting the needs of the poor and the malnourished here or abroad. To suggest so is patently false.
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The remainder of your commentary is rather pointless. You don’t care for the term social justice……big deal. You believe that private giving is more than adequate at meeting needs despite all evidence to the contrary. You spout the typical Republican line (in so many words) that people should handle their own problems and pull themselves up by their bootstraps and if they are unable, too bad. “Compassionate” conservatism at it’s finest.

if you know for a fact that we have the highest rate of volunteerism in the world, then please tell me where that number came from and what other countries were involved.

I am assuming that this is based upon ALL volunteer efforts not just ones organized through religion since America is now the most religious country in the Western World.

I do not know for a fact that we have the highest volunteer rates in the world.

I do know that an NPR story on the matter had cited a study correlating work hours per week to volunteering, but, I could not find it online.

If you could find a peer reviewed article on volunteering to tax rate (rather than work hours per week which I had heard from a reliable source – and believe it was peer reviewed) then you have made one point.

So far you have not.

I agree with everything you said.

as teddy roosevelt said 100 years ago about another fascist moron ” every time glenn beck opens his mouth he subtracts from the collective wisdom pf mankind”

again – some how this posted as a separate comment apart from this thread – must have hit the wrong button – sorry.

iamsouce,

I don’t see anyone in this thread of comments advocating or not advocating anything regarding what you have posted.

The comments I made are in conjunction with all taxation and their implementation. My comments are mostly on the personal choices we all make and how we live our lives.
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Generalizations don’t add to debate.
If you do not believe in war – than you should not have to contribute to it. You should be able to direct the tax money to an area of where you feel it will do the most good.

Please don’t imply or put words into my statements that are not there.
Thank you.

“A certain fellow… blathering about justice?” THAT is very offensive to me as an Orthodox Christian, as much as Beck’s idiotic comment.

OK samfrog2.., you have now made me realize I am mistaken. So tell me, exactly how do I go about telling the Government how to spend the taxes it takes from me?
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Wouldn’t that be the process of voting for and supporting legislation that directs the spending?
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I’m all ears…

I do know that during the middle ages the Christian Church (Catholic Church since it had a a monopoly over nearly all of Europe) had a forced tithe for the poor. This was enforced by the same knights who enforced the taxes to the local lord.

So, there may have been many or few who did anything above and beyond their tithe. This is not clear.

An additional wild card would be, even if you do (and you may before this gets posted) find those numbers, it would not include additional, informal good deeds.

So, if you can say that there is something vaguely resembling harm to a Christian way of volunteering due to higher taxes, then I would like to see it and it would then be an argument for people who believe in something I do not to take a conservative stand on some government spending.

Sorry. You cant deny that there are communist leaning people in the white house. Ill let thier own words speek for them.

The 2 people i look to most are chairman mao and mother Teresa.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2FVEe7wCzs

The free market is a joke – we agree with mao that political power comes from the barrel of a gun

Van Jones (just everything he says)

Andy stern (most visits to the white house) workers of the word unit.

and last but not least the Christmas tree.

Friar, as a nonpracticing Catholic (you are never an ex Catholic), I find it odd defending the church and its teachings on this blog. However, the truths I came away with after years as a practicing Catholic are the ones that have been most helpful in my life. My parents and the Church taught me practicing “social justice” was a duty. Even the Church fails at fulfilling this directive (sexism, anti-gay teachings, etc.) but the core teaching has stayed with me and informed my secular beliefs.
Thank you for your post.

den: Thank you.

Chriss1321

My preference is to help people with my tax dollars (and don’t forget — tax revenue is a legal constitutional issue). But I don’t ever want to waste another red cent on another stupid aggressive war. So go ahead, disband the military, limit all such expenses to defense only, and build this nation from within using those tax dollars to turn her into what her mythology constantly (and erroneously) proclaims herself to be: a great nation.

And in the process, park your g-dam greed elsewhere.

Hey, freeinpa……

Did you know that glenn beck is a tax cheat? He bashes those few in the Obama administration whom he claims are “tax cheats.” One of those people withdrew her nomination for some position because she had a $946 tax lien non her home.

Yet if I am not mistaken, beck was fined something like $20,000 for being a tax cheat.

This blog’s first 20 chapters of argument, led by newfreedomblog, freeinpa, patricksartor, and Exiled_At_Home, are far more deserving of commentary than Amy Sullivan’s article. Sullivan’s – or her editor’s – choice of title is tragic; it doesn’t do service to her argument, that Glen Beck has ostracized himself from several denominations of the Christian faith because he inadvertently disagreed with the teachings of “a certain fellow from Nazareth”. I don’t honestly care whether you agree with Sullivan or not; my beef with Glen Beck far exceeds the scope of her article.

What I do care about are the opinions and viewpoints expressed in chapter 16; I believe those are the most relevant to today’s political climate, and are highly indicative of conservative and liberal tendencies. I recommend that you re-read them before reading my comments (if you would be so kind).

Dear newfreedomblog (16),
As patricksartor (16.2) and Exiled_At_Home (16.5) meant to say, history is never as clean and pure as you’ve portrayed it, especially in religious contexts. Do not romanticize history, as that often ruins one’s chances of making a respectable, scholarly, or intellectual argument. I took special notice of how freeinpa (14.4) associated such argument with “left loons[s]”; if all conservatives argued like Glen Beck I would be forced to agree that yes, only liberal people argue with intellect. However, I have heard many respectable and intellectual arguments from center-right conservatives and rightwing conservatives, yours included, which is why I’ll ignore the questionable historical context of your argument, and just address the ideals you spoke of.

I’m a liberal person, and I too value hard work and charity, traits which defined 17th and 18th century Puritan life. These things are the backbone of any successful society, and in a perfect world there would be no need for government or even for religion; if people naturally gave love and sustenance to each other, we wouldn’t need an authority to tell, ask, or remind them to do so. However, our world is not perfect, which is precisely why our founding fathers saw the need for government (the Declaration of Independence says, as a previous poster pointed out, “That to secure [Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness], Governments are instituted among Men”)

Not only do we need a government, we need a strong one. In modern America, with churches and other social institutions losing membership (relative to population growth), government is the only entity that the entire U.S. population can influence, and be influenced by. Though social contracts based upon religion worked well for the Puritans, modern America is far more diverse, and more adamant about separation between church and state. The ideals of hard work and charity are honored amongst agnostics too, though many fanatically religious people don’t believe it. I see no problem with accomplishing those ideals by the mandate of secular government. I find the organized and mandatory nature of taxes to be more ethically appealing than voluntary contribution to a church pew collection plate. If tax revenue is responsibly managed and spent on those in need via social welfare, Medicare, etc., I’m happy.

Newfreedomblog, you said in 16.0, “Those who promote Social Justice are only interested in power. The power to control the masses. The power to control what you can and cannot do. All in the name of “Social Justice”

It’s funny, because that’s exactly what I’m interested in. But my idea of social justice has little to do with revoking the freedoms of a four-person family with annual earnings of $50k; rather, I wish to tell the guy who earns $100 million annually that he need not keep all of it. It only takes a few million to live in extreme comfort for a year; taxation and charity shouldn’t be about how much you give away, but about how much you have left. That $100 million earner does nothing for society that’s inherently 2000 times more valuable than the livelihood of a family of four.

lavender: Thanks for pointing out the advantages of the Canadian health plan. I lived on the border for years and interacted with many Canadians. I worked in a tavern (pub) where truth is spoken. None complained about the Canadian health plan.

If we go by this concept of yours, then sure.., yeah, I want all my taxes back. All the taxes that ever paid for roads, police, lawyers, politicians, judges, or any other program I was taxed for including medcare and social security, and while were at it, sales taxes, because SIR, I never agreed to GIVE that money away. It was TAKEN from me!

iamsource,

And where exactly in anything I have posted have I said you couldn’t lobby or vote or try to change legislation on where your taxes go?
I fail to see your point regarding any of my comments.
You have commented on nothing I have said or advocated. You have lumped people together without cause.
Generalizations do not help in debate.

Freepy, You would have had to take your fingers out of yours to have head about social justice in catholic school. You clearly were not educated by Jesuits. But maybe it was so long ago, that the memory of it has been drowned out by the hate filled rhetoric of the right and those like Beck.Happens!

Chris1321

There are communist-leaning people responding to you on this website. So what? Personally, I have as much respect for Karl Marx as I have for Thomas Jefferson. Too bad they couldn’t have gotten together, maybe they could have made something of this country, something far beyond the greedy dreg it’s become.

Freepy, You would have had to take your fingers out of your ears to have head about social justice in catholic school. You clearly were not educated by Jesuits. But maybe it was so long ago, that the memory of it has been drowned out by the hate filled rhetoric of the right and those like Beck.Happens!

If somebody puts an ornament on your tree when you are not involved with it, it does not make you a communist or anything else.
It means that somebody who was mocking him or authentically liked Mao put something on a tree.

To make a valid point, please find Obama and Biden reading the communist manifesto or something.

Since both are very anti-Communist, you would probably have an easier time finding George W Bush with Cheney and Rumseld worshiping Satan and sacrificing Iraqi virgins than finding Obama and Biden promoting communism.

@diecash1
Again changing the blog post. Its about the words social justice and how it fits into the bible not how the government runs.

“Really? Have you looked around America or the world recently? Private giving is nowhere close to meeting the needs of the poor and the malnourished here or abroad. To suggest so is patently false.”

So how do you suggest we fix this? Remember the government only has what we give them or what they take. They are not playing with their own money because they have no money

Back on topic
Social Justice that Glenn was talking about and this blog is railing on is the Government taking money from one person and giving to another so
Social Justice = taking
Charity = giving

List of money those evil capitalists gave to hati
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/15/haiti-relief-corporate-do_n_424710.html

New Orleans
http://michellemalkin.com/2005/08/31/45306000-and-counting/

Last on your “right wing talking points”
I have not seen you have an opinion that you have been able to back up with any type of facts yet (on subject please). I am actually a democrat but i guess i am what you would call ‘classic liberal”. Small government in all ways.

chriss1321-You seem to be missing some basic information on what communism actually is. First in a communist state their is no government, the USSR was not communist they were a toltalitarion regime that used communisim as a promise to lead the people into generations of oppression. A communist state has no government and decisions are made locally but when they go to the factory they share in the profits instead of taking what wages an owner decides to give them. That is what it is in its original form in a simplistic telling.

So if you are in IT or are a programmer by trade you therefore own the means of your own production if you own a computer. Since you own the means of your own production and can officially fend for yourself to attend to your own needs and do not necessarily have to rely on a boss/owner/capitalist you can compete on a relatively level playing field and this makes you Marx’s ideal but in a nation that decided things on a communal basis(democracy) and where every man and woman was equal.

You have to read Marx in a strange way because he was describing an agricultural ideal just before technology began to explode so he misunderstood some basic things about our future. “I am Marx but I am not a Marxist!” is actually a famous Marx quote. Another piece of the puzzle is the Marx was writing this as all over the western world peasants and surfs were finally finding social justice in meagre ways only for the industrial revolution to begin and a new class, the capitalists to move in and be just as cruel and inhuman as the royalty had been, compared to now they were dark times. Marx was actually closer to what are called Socialist Libertarians that basiclly believe in a small social safety net and otherwise gov doesnt really exist except on a local level. The communisim you are speaking of is what would better be termed Bolshevikism where they seized merchandise and killed and humilaited their rulers and upper classes. In historical context though due to the serfs social class that was actually a slave revolt on a national level rather than a political movement and their history played out much like that. In short communism is not about taking, its about sharing on communal needs and otherwise you do what you do. An example is if Egypt’s pyramids truly were built by labor during seasons when they were not farming as a way of paying their debt to the community it could be considered communist except the decision was made from the top and not the bottom(local level) which makes it not so.

Having said all of that socialism is a very different animal, it bribes citizenry with services for which they should be a good citizen. Historically it has been the most resilient system against communistic ideas and threats which is why Europe and the US bent hard in that direction during the cold war. Fascism has some similarities to socialism but it is a very different animal, socialism historically is the nation rising up to meet the needs demanded by those at the bottom or in the middle, facism on the other hand dehumanizes the bottom and melts the middle in the interest of the top and explains it as in the interest of “the nation.”

Facism=bundle of sticks, together we are strong and alone we are nothing, like laws allowing you to seize property in the interest of the city council’s coffers which would be a fascistic act not a communistic one since financial interests are conspiring with government interests. Taxes are a consequence of a socialistic style of government or a fascistic one, it is how they police and provide services and a ballooning military budget in a nation that allows private companies to be military contractors is also a service just only to those that get paid.

On a side note where exactly is the gov taking food from one mouth to hand it to another? Oh yea not happening more like taking pocket change from the well off to provide for minimum subsistence for those that have not benefited as those that have and therefore have to pay higher tax rates. Do not get me wrong I do not think we should go back to pre-Reagan tax rates but we have a long way to go to get back to his. Either way that line was just childish emotionalism. The only philosophy I have heard espoused to starve people are the free market and Ayn Rand camps since if you aren’t rich you don’t deserve a voice and I would assume food either. Oddly Ayn Rand always spoke of how she admired the Bolshevik’s methods she was just angry because she thought they should have been stomping on the serfs instead of those that benefited from their enslavement…like her family.

I don’t know who this “Beck” person is, and I don’t particularly care. What I do see and care about is the partisan fighting between fellow Americans caught between an impossible right and an impractical left with no middle ground.
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Because there are only two opposites of political philosophy, with none taking a stance containing the most moderate and beneficial ideas from each side, there isn’t a party which represents the actual majority of people in the US. For us, it’s always a compromise between the devil on the right and the deep blue sea on the left.
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My take is to each side: Screw you. I want representation of my viewpoint – a little left of center for me, a little right of center for others. In other words, a moderate point of view. If you can’t at least try to balance social responsibility (the liberal left side) with fiscal responsibility (the conservative right side), you don’t belong in government.
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It’s easy to be brain-dead and follow a “platform”. It’s harder to be a moderate because there are no hard and fast rules defining what that means. But here’s a hint: If, when you travel, you have far more strangers on the street agreeing with your point of view than not, you’re probably a moderate. If someone points a gun at you or threatens you, to them, you’re a liberal. If someone screams at you without threatening violence, to them, you’re a conservative.

And so it goes…

Idrclue1,

nteresting point on Joe McCarthy.

He once told a joke which made Irish Catholic Americans aware of what Ireland calls “the troubles” laugh, but sent chills down people’s spine at the time.

“There was an IRA assassin who said ‘when I die, I want you to bury me in the Protestant graveyard’. ‘Why” a friend asked. ‘Because that’s the last place the devil would look for me.’”

The implication from his context was that Irish Catholic Joe was claiming that the, especially then, staunchly anti-Communist Catholic Church was harboring communists.

No evidence or even McCarthy pseud-evidence of such was ever found.

Communists were the mid to late twentieth century boogie men.

Nazis, their arch enemy, fortunately are long gone less an incredibly small number of useless lunatics here and/or abroad.

samfrog What citizens in Galveston did after the 1900 hurricane was remarkable. Just as what New Yorkers did after 9/11, they pulled together to save lives and rebuild.
However, you fail to mention what else happened. The government came in to rebuild roads and levys. They helped in reopenning institutions in the community. That help came from the taxation of the American people.
It was government and volunteers working together.

@patricksartor
did you click on the rest of the links? All those people work for obama. Usually you hire people (in government) that have the same views as you. The whole “show me your friends and ill show you your future”, but if you want obama saying “spread the wealth around” here you go.

You don’t have to stand on the corner reading the communist manifesto to know where he stands on things.

It is clear samfrog2 that you do not honor your own intent, implications, and indeed words. You continually refer to responses of your post as non-material, yet anyone can see they clearly are. This is what is called “smoke screen” and denial. Just something for your edification.

Samfrog,

I am nearly positive now that I think about it that we are probably citing the same article but, possibly, from different sources.

I heard it on the BBC.

It was an English Atheist bringing up the Salvation Army as an example of how people practicing organized religion are by far more likely to get involved in organized volunteer work.

It said nothing about taxes.

Later, the commentator cited a study about work hours and volunteer work on the BBC and brought up NYC.

It made good sense since one is much, much more likely to go to volunteer at a soup kitchen if they are inside of a church and an acquaintance makes the announcement that they need volunteers and where to sign up than if you are an atheist or not a part of organized religion having to come up with the idea yourself and hunt the web for a place you would like to volunteer.

(It wouldn’t hurt any if the person making the announcement is a pretty young single woman – nothing wrong with doing good deeds with a woman you may want to try to get together and make Catholic babies with someday, right.)

apr2563….you’re welcome.

I also was raised as a Catholic but no longer practice that faith. However, like you, I still believe in a number of the things I was taught, such as social justice…..whether or not it was called that, I don’t remember, but I do know what I was taught.

Beck is in the fine tradition of demigogues. He has no beliefs. It is all about Beck. If it takes fear mongering, deceit, and injustice to build his cult so be it. His ego and pockets get filled.
The scary part is that the traditional media do not take this modern day McCarthy seriously. He is damaging our country. Everyday he stirs up hate and comes closer to inciting violence.

If we go by this concept of yours samfrog2, then sure.., yeah, I want all my taxes back. All the taxes that ever paid for roads, police, lawyers, politicians, judges, or any other program I was taxed for including Medicare and social security, and while were at it, sales taxes, because SIR, I never agreed to GIVE that money away. It was TAKEN from me!
.
So maybe a tax based healthcare system isn’t that bad after all…

@iddeussee
“My preference is to help people with my tax dollars ”

Its not your preference if the government makes that choice for you. You can help people with your money. That is called charity.

“But I don’t ever want to waste another red cent on another stupid aggressive war.”

And this is where we agree (sort of). No more nation building. We are supposed to be like Switzerland but do you know who started the whole “spreading democracy” kick? Teddy Roosevelt. While a Republican by name he would be what we consider a RINO nowadays. A Progressive republican. A I know better then you republican. Kinda like the people that tell you that they should give money to charity for you right?

“So go ahead, disband the military”
That’s not going to happen.

“And in the process, park your g-dam greed elsewhere.”

Hum. I think i said i am for charity right? Do you have a copy of my taxes? How many families did you feed this week?

carpevis,

I respect your assessment of today’s political climate, but I must direct you towards a few sources which may further inform your opinion.

You speak of a general lack of reconciliation across the isle, and of the GOP’s supposed platform of fiscal responsibility; recent historical precedent and the political science concept of “Starving the Beast” indicate otherwise. Here’s New York Times columnist Paul Krugman’s opinion on the matter – it’s a very good read: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/22/opinion/22krugman.html

I realize that in directing you to that article, you may think I’m only contributing to the fire. I’m not; rather, I’m trying to explicitly state WHY dems and reps don’t compromise as much as most of America wishes they would.

iamsource
Huh…??

“It is clear samfrog2 that you do not honor your own intent, implications, and indeed words. You continually refer to responses of your post as non-material, yet anyone can see they clearly are. This is what is called “smoke screen” and denial. Just something for your edification.”

My post that you commented on did not say anything about taxes going to wars. My post did not say to fight against taxes to help the poor. I said taxation does not make you a better Christian.

Please cite exactly what I have posted that is relevant to your comments. You didn’t in this post. You just generalized and derided.
If you copy and show me exactly where I said anything about not fighting against taxation for wars for one example – please do so.
Till then it is you who is putting up the smokescreen.
However – I will not comment on your honor, intent or integrity. As I don’t know you, I cannot presume on any of that. Just take on faith that you are a well-meaning person who perhaps made comments on the wrong thread of posts.

Chriss,

Hitler believed God was on Germany’s side and even had it written on SS belt buckles.

GWB believed that God was on his side.

Hitler believed in preemptive war and practiced it.

GWB believed in preemptive war and practiced it.

Hitler had a weak military record.

GWB had a weaker military record.

Do I really believe GWB was Hitler?

No.

However, this looks like a waste of my time to open all of your links judging from something on Obama’s Christmas tree.

Maybe I will look later, but unless it has something to do with taking dictatorial control of the government and murdering people, you will have done nothing to convince me that Obama is closer to a communist than Bush was to a Satan worshiper.

Check out this FASCIST-like remark

Apparently this was an attempt at humor.

@magicalskyfath

To long to respond to the whole thing so im only going to respond to the part where you put words in my mouth.

“On a side note where exactly is the gov taking food from one mouth to hand it to another?”

Read the post that i was responding to. It was about food so i used food in the analogy.

“The only philosophy I have heard espoused to starve people are the free market”
Communism might not have a philosophy to starve people but I am Ukrainian. Look up what happened there. And if it is so great then why are people getting on boats to come here from Cuba?

Why do readers stop reading TIME?

Probably because the magazine has drifted so far to the left that objectivity is no where in the room.

If you will look, the National Council of Churches and Jim Wallis both want mandatory government programs for low and some middle income people. Jesus never said anything about government programs.

I keep getting emails from TIME saying, “We want you back.” It’s too bad they cannot run an objective story any longer, or at least fake it.

They will be out of business sometime soon.

@patricksartor

The tree link was supposed to show up like the rest as links. It has less importance then the rest but now it seems like it is the most. If you will not look at the rest then i guess we are done.

Not a fan of GWB either so you cant use that to try and prove your point.

This blog’s first 20 chapters of argument, led by newfreedomblog, freeinpa, patricksartor, and Exiled_At_Home, are far more deserving of commentary than Amy Sullivan’s article. Sullivan’s – or her editor’s – choice of title is tragic; it doesn’t do service to her argument, that Glen Beck has ostracized himself from several denominations of the Christian faith because he inadvertently disagreed with the teachings of “a certain fellow from Nazareth”. I don’t honestly care whether you agree with Sullivan or not; my beef with Glen Beck far exceeds the scope of her article.

What I do care about are the opinions and viewpoints expressed in chapter 16; I believe those are the most relevant to today’s political climate, and are highly indicative of conservative and liberal tendencies. I recommend that you re-read them before reading my comments (if you would be so kind).

Dear newfreedomblog (16),
As patricksartor (16.2) and Exiled_At_Home (16.5) meant to say, history is never as clean and pure as you’ve portrayed it, especially in religious contexts. Do not romanticize history, as that often ruins one’s chances of making a respectable, scholarly, or intellectual argument. I took special notice of how freeinpa (14.4) associated such argument with “left loons[s]”; if all conservatives argued like Glen Beck I would be forced to agree that yes, only liberal people argue with intellect. However, I have heard many respectable and intellectual arguments from center-right conservatives and rightwing conservatives, yours included, which is why I’ll ignore the questionable historical context of your argument, and just address the ideals you spoke of.

I’m a liberal person, and I too value hard work and charity, traits which defined 17th and 18th century Puritan life. These things are the backbone of any successful society, and in a perfect world there would be no need for government or even for religion; if people naturally gave love and sustenance to each other, we wouldn’t need an authority to tell, ask, or remind them to do so. However, our world is not perfect, which is precisely why our founding fathers saw the need for government (the Declaration of Independence says, as a previous poster pointed out, “That to secure [Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness], Governments are instituted among Men”)

Not only do we need a government, we need a strong one. In modern America, with churches and other social institutions losing membership (relative to population growth), government is the only entity that the entire U.S. population can influence, and be influenced by. Though social contracts based upon religion worked well for the Puritans, modern America is far more diverse, and more adamant about separation between church and state. The ideals of hard work and charity are honored amongst agnostics too, though many fanatically religious people don’t believe it. I see no problem with accomplishing those ideals by the mandate of secular government. I find the organized and mandatory nature of taxes to be more ethically appealing than voluntary contribution to a church pew collection plate. If tax revenue is responsibly managed and spent on those in need via social welfare, Medicare, etc., I’m happy.

Newfreedomblog, you said in 16.0, “Those who promote Social Justice are only interested in power. The power to control the masses. The power to control what you can and cannot do. All in the name of “Social Justice”

It’s funny, because that’s exactly what I’m interested in. But my idea of social justice has little to do with revoking the freedoms of a four-person family with annual earnings of $50k; rather, I wish to tell the guy who earns $100 million annually that he need not keep all of it. It only takes a few million to live in extreme comfort for a year; taxation and charity shouldn’t be about how much you give away, but about how much you have left. That $100 million earner does nothing for society that’s inherently 2000 times more valuable than the livelihood of a family of four.

Stuart Zechman~
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Perhaps my clarity is on vacation.
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Justice is a subjective term, yes. It bears different connotations in different societies. Perhaps, there is a higher justice irrespective of man, but who is to say what that is? It is an all encompassing ambiguity. There are endless possibilities that can fall under the penumbra of justice or injustice.
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Social justice, on the other hand, has a clearly defined platform. According to the Catholic Church’s Social Justice Theory, at least, there are positive and concrete prerequisites for a level of social justice to be attained. I suspect that there are other looser variants of the social justice concept that would not be all that dissimilar from the vague notion of justice. However, at least within Catholic teaching, social justice is well-defined.

Patricksartor

Yes that is the article – and I know it was not about taxation. It was about doing. And an Atheist saw what was being done and admitted that he could not do what the Salvation Army Captain was doing. Not that that made the Atheist a bad person – so please don’t go there. He acknowledged the power of faith to do good that is all I was referring to.
In regards to volunteerism and charitable giving:
here are some links:
In terms of Country Development assistance: USA #1 almost double the next closest country
In terms of Private Philanthropy – Over double the closest country (and Switzerland and Norway don’t make that list)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_charitable_countries

Also go to the Bureau of Labor statistics
http://www.bls.gov/search/?cx=011405714443654768953%3Abtgxl8qv780&cof=FORID%3A10%3BNB%3A1&ie=ISO-8859-1&prefix=&q=volunteering+2005&filter=0&sa=Search#970

And for further input:
http://www.energizeinc.com/art/statistics.html#us

Norway is not listed here but Sweden is.

barron and carpevis, not just left and right, but the center also speaks out of both sides of the mouth. Honesty is in short supply in both politics and religion it seems. Greenwald has posted that the Dems never intended to allow a government option for HC, for example, even though they express sadness that it is off the table. Arguments are made that borrowing from the left and right and seeking an acceptable ground gains nothing for everybody.
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I too have enjoyed reading this discussion, even though, and maybe because, I don’t care what Beck or Jesus say or said. Certainly Beck pontificates more extensively than Jesus. But it is the religious followers that are fascinating to me. It is sad commentary, to me, on the state of government that religion plays such a large part. Nobody has mentioned the rebel, terrorist image Jesus presented to the established order, Jewish and Roman. He was going to die, whether or not it was for anybodies sins or not. His rampage in the temple was the modern equivalent of setting off a bomb on Wall St. But he wrote nothing. He wasn’t actually christian himself. Paul and others decided what the religion in his name was about, and they continue to do so.
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It’s all human nature. No agreement politically or religiously. The strongest at any given time, physically or otherwise, prevail.

Howard Beale was way more impressive, intelligent, articulate, and relevant than Glen Beck.

apr2563,
You are correct I did not go further re Galveston. However I should have been clearer and I apologize.

The people of Galveston did not wait for the government to start to take care of them. And the government did not pay for it all – the taxation was done for infrastructure for commerce between states.

So the taxation was not just for the benefit of Galveston but for the rest of the country.
It was an important port for the commerce of the country. The roads etc had to be rebuilt to enable goods arriving in port to be transported to the rest of the country.

People from allover came in and volunteered to help rebuild as well.

My comments are not meant to assume that there should be no taxation for the greater good. And there are great differences in what constitutes the greater good this country.

I do stand by my statement that taxation and paying taxes does not make one a better person or better Christian. My opinion.

Taking from others does not always make government better either or provide better use of the money garnered.

Posted this in the wrong spot

@patricksartor

The tree link was supposed to show up like the rest as links. It has less importance then the rest but now it seems like it is the most. If you will not look at the rest then i guess we are done.

Not a fan of GWB either so you cant use that to try and prove your point.

freeinpa~
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Could you provide a link to this story? I don’t mean to be skeptical, but you’ll understand, of course, my hesitancy in believing that the IRS sent two aggressive agents to collect a 4 cent debt.

Derek:

You may have mistaken the opening words of the “Declaration of Independence” for the “Constitution,” but the “Preamble to the Constitution” says: “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

I think it’s more than safe to draw the conclusion that social justice was not far from the minds of the founders when they drew up the Constitution. Of course, our notion of what “social justice” encompasses would, and will continue to, change as we evolve as a nation, hopefully always expanding in the direction of increasing the good for the greatest number.

chriss1231-What was done to Ukraine was horrific but note an action of state power over the will of the people not to mention the local people. They spoke communist words much like many americans speak libertarian words but they are not the reality. Also sorry for misunderstanding the food thing it makes more sense in that context. Cuba is a dictatorship that has been economically isolated by its neighbours for generations and it is therefore a sucky place to live regardless of political philosophy, we also get a steady stream of immigrants from capitalist style govs as well and I would note that Cuban’s do not flee to other neighbouring nations as you would expect if they were just fleeing communism.

In truth by their neighbours standards they are not to bad off but they have to deal with the thought police that are an action of a totalitarian police state which are not left wing but actually right wing ideas. Communist statism is where extreme left and extreme right meet in the middle in sheer insanity. What happened in Stalin’s Russia was the same that happened in Mao’s China and Peter The Great’s Russia they tried to modernise to quickly and ignored the plight of the lower classes which in the end lead to mass starvation in all three cases I would note though in all three cases they were all failures of planning of a strong central statist government.

Also when I was speaking of the starving of people I was thinking more along the lines of the Irish potato famine/slave trade and the like, I should have specified as it is obscure but it is what happens when those type of ideals are taken to their extreme as well. What I always found amazing about the USSR and Nazi Germany is how they each highlighted their differences while trying to ignore their similarities which were actually more plentiful. The main difference was that Germany’s population had known better times and many in Russia had not though in the satellite republics some had.

Yes, Glenn is LDS (Morman) so then is that part of the answer???

Before he was morman he was a hedonist after he had been brought up in catholicism. It’s all an answer for Beck and to his zombie followers. Not to me.

iamsource – I think I see what you were looking at. But I think you are reading it incorrectly I said I do not see anywhere in the bible that Jesus said to TAKE from others in order to do good.

Where am I wrong in that? Jesus says to render under Caesar… pay taxes.
He doesn’t say that paying taxes makes you a better person. He says to follow the law of the land. He doesn’t even say that taxes even do good.

He doesn’t say taxes are good or bad – he exhorts people to take care of each other.

He doesn’t say Caesar should tax more either.

And many of your comments prove my point. You would rather your portion of taxes not go to a war. So why can’t you as a citizen make sure your money doesn’t go there? Would be easy to do.
You have a form that you fill out and when your income tax is determined, you get to place your tax dollars where you think will do the most good.

However
Infrastructure (roads, bridges, etc ) schools and things like that should be paid for by everyone so there could be a designated portion of your income assigned automatically to begin with.

Saying that people who are against the healthcare plan don’t want to help people is not true. feeling that something is being implemented poorly etc and having an opinion against it is not evil or wrong.

I bet if one were given chance to say X amount of dollars was to go to my local community towards a healthcare program for those who do not have insurance or cannot be insured – that no one would need a Federal health insurance plan. Each community within a state could piggyback on each other and help cover the entire state – covering those that need it.

Hey Glenn, I get it!

It’s really frustrating to blog — I keep hoping someone’s interested in truth. Not many. I just hear people bloviating, trying to vent anger, make a point to cut down others, etc. Wow. I meant that if you truly listened LONG enough to hear through the histrionics, you would hear what people are resonating with–not crackpots, but middle American, solid working class, intelligent, grounded individuals. They are DONE with the games, on BOTH sides. He’s the only one I’ve heard that articulates the truth that CORRUPTION ON BOTH SIDES is our enemy. Look at how many posts people have wasted trying to sound superior and cut people and their opinions down. I don’t do that, except on a frustrating day when I see 2700 pages of corruption and man’s ill-begotten reasoning dangerously close to becoming law. I hear those of you who care and think that the Fed govt is the only way to achieve that. I disagree. I see it working better elsewhere, I see what reaching into people’s hearts can do. But we have to return to a collection of principles in order to do so–Beck’s principles ARE in the Bible, but he is pointing out that the Bible people are ALSO in need of repentance.

He is flamboyant, incendiary in tone. I get those complaints, and it doesn’t make me happy. But he speaks a lot of truth, too, which is why I suggested that you listen LONG enough to pick through the commentary and hear the truth. I do that with the progressive and liberal people I listen to. Sorry, can’t find any perfect people, religious or not, that have the whole package. But those of you who take potshots at religious people need to look inward. You TOO have light within you, and being afraid to stand up for that truth doesn’t make you any LESS hypocritical–just afraid AND hypocritical. “Oh, I wert that you were cold or hot, but because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out…”

Let’s play a game of compare.
.
Mum481 says…
.

“Of course, our notion of what “social justice” encompasses would, and will continue to, change as we evolve as a nation, hopefully always expanding in the direction of increasing the good for the greatest number.”

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Marx says…
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“History calls those men the greatest who have ennobled themselves by working for the common good; experience acclaims as happiest the man who has made the greatest number of people happy.

Marx, Letter to His Father (1837)

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From The Gospel According to Beck: Jesus spoke to the multitudes, saying, “Whatever you have done unto the least of these, you have done unto me. But woe unto that person who tries to do this through the government. You will be labeled a goose-stepping communist fascist and you will be thrown into the outer darkness.”

Thinking about those less fortunate than us and trying to help them is an innate trait of Christians.

The early Christians could be identified by the love they had for one another and this is what “added to their numbers”.

The book of Acts mentions how people sold all they had and shared with others so no one was in want.
This does not bring us salvation, but the result of salvation – through Christ’s dieing on our behalf.

I wonder if the “prosperity gospel” preached by so many tele-evangelists has made people selfish thinking about themselves and their “blessings” rather than others.

The greatest good for the greatest number is a position primarily associated with the Utilitarians, such Bentham and John Stuart Mill, of whom Karl Marx was a fierce critic.
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mum481 the founders certainly identified “government” as the instrument for promoting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is hard to imagine how the lack of basic health care contributes to any one of those.

http://www.sacbee.com/2010/03/13/2604016/irs-suits-pay-visit-to-car-wash.html
==

Naturally we have a liberal tirade about Beck being a tax cheat. So was Olbermann of the staunch blowhards about the rich paying their fair share. I can believe how that is far more horrific that is than the man responsible to oversee the IRS is a tax fraud not just a tax cheat. Or the man who writes the tax laws simply ignore. Or the other half dozen or so of the looney left who are rabid advocates of more taxes especially since they feel free not to pay them.

It is hard not to laugh and it certainly makes any liberal arguments about corruption and fairness just plain old crap.

The Gospel According to Beck, 4:18:
I know the Spirit of the Lord is on me
Because he has blessed me with wealth and power.
He has anointed me to preach good news to corporate America.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom from government regulation
And to disavow the insanity of bleeding-heart liberals,
To end blasphemous teachings of social justice,
And to proclaim a year with no capital-gains taxes.

Its part of the liberal playbook. If you can demonize opponents and victimize your allies it takes less intellectual firepower than to face reality and deal with the issues. Or that the cause of the problem may be the liberal plans themselves.

patricksartor

Yes that is the article – and I know it was not about taxation. It was about doing. And an Atheist saw what was being done and admitted that he could not do what the Salvation Army Captain was doing. Not that that made the Atheist a bad person – so please don’t go there. He acknowledged the power of faith to do good that is all I was referring to.
In regards to volunteerism and charitable giving:
here are some links:
In terms of Country Development assistance: USA #1 almost double the next closest country
In terms of Private Philanthropy – Over double the closest country (and Switzerland and Norway don’t make that list)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_charitable_countries

Also go to the Bureau of Labor statistics
http://www.bls.gov/search/?cx=011405714443654768953%3Abtgxl8qv780&cof=FORID%3A10%3BNB%3A1&ie=ISO-8859-1&prefix=&q=volunteering+2005&filter=0&sa=Search#970

And for further input:
http://www.energizeinc.com/art/statistics.html#us

Norway is not listed here but Sweden is.

Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/14/why-does-glenn-beck-hate-jesus/comment-page-3/?replytocom=144827#respond#ixzz0iCIF9ROf

…so you’re saying that if TIME moves to the right they’ll be objective? But if they lean to the right like you wish then they won’t be objective. So what’s your point?

It’s amazing that Amy’s mostly avoided personal attacks in a thread this long.

Social justice was a new concept in the 19th century?

On what planet?

Has there ever been another kind of justice?

“Justice, justice shall you pursue, that you may thrive and occupy the land that the Eternal your God is giving you.” (Deuteronomy 16:20)

I think Amy is a night owl, same for Jay. They both often post really early / late. Karen is clearly a morning person. I still wish Amy would reply to us; that too would give a hint as when / if she sleeps.

Since she knows more about the religious content than anybody here, it would be nice if she responded now and then.

Many have commented on how they resent government being used to force their contributions to help the less fortunate. The churches do it best they say. I would like to remind these people that the largest recipient of government largesse in the US is organized religion. Tax deductions costing hundreds of billions of dolars annually support religion, in direct violation of the establishment clause of our constitution. Obviously government involvement in social justice is not new, and has til now been most strongly promoted by religious and conservative factions. Why then the conservative hysteria about the government offering additional help to those whose needs are too great or too complex for churches to manage. Surely it is not to be expected that churches will create a system of health insurance to cover the 45 million uninsured. It is not unlike the government taking responsibility for guaranteeing an education to each and every child or organizing nationwide vaccination campaigns to eliminate dreaded diseases from everyones life. Or perhaps, these talking heads are advocating the abolition of tax exempt status for religion, inasmuch as it is the only activity of choice that receives such special privileges in this country.

You’re right; I wish she would talk to us.

Reading comprehension doesn’t appear to be your strong suit. At no point have I been OT. The discussion was about social justice, Beck’s spouting off about it and the refutation of his comments by the religious community. If you happen to read the commentary in the thread, you will note that the government’s role in providing social justice was discussed. You even ranted about how social justice as provided for by the government is akin to stealing:
..

Social Justice is simply stealing from the rich such that they cannot fund new companies and create new jobs is a crime.

..
So my discussing the government and private charity is OT how exactly?
..
What “right wing talking points” have I put forth? I mentioned your right wing attitude and how I thought it was in keeping with the canard that is “compassionate” conservativism — take care of it yourself and if you can’t, suffer and die quietly.
..

I have not seen you have an opinion that you have been able to back up with any type of facts yet

..
What is it that you require to be substantiated? Do you really doubt that private giving is not meeting the needs of the populace the world over? It doesn’t require much searching to discover that it is not:
..
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS349US350&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=food+banks+running+low
..
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1257292/The-Mail-apologises-readers-pictures-speak-eloquently-politician-desperate-plight-starving-people-Zimbabwe.html
..
There are many more similar stories if you care to look.
..

I am actually a democrat but i guess i am what you would call ‘classic liberal”. Small government in all ways.

..
How exactly would it benefit society to shrink government by not providing temporary assistance to those that are unable to provide for themselves?
..
Taxes are the price we pay to live in a society. Taxes provide money for infrastructure, regulation and oversight of industry oversight, defense and a host of other programs including a threadbare social safety net the Republicans are trying desperately to sever. If you have a problem with taxes, you are free to move to a country that better suits your ideals of small government and low (or no) taxes, Somalia perhaps? I’m sure it’s a conservative paradise with little or no government to get in your way or tell you what you must give; certainly no societal justice there.
..
A few questions: How is it that a government helping its neediest citizens avoid starvation and premature death through the use of taxes is wrong? Does it not benefit our society as a whole?
..
Do you rail against corporate welfare and the hugely bloated defense budget as you do against the much smaller spending that provides a measure of societal justice?
..
How is it that Beck is so throughly confused that he is admonishing his fans to leave any church that promotes societal justice? How can he compare said justice to Communism and Nazism? Do you believe this as well?

A boggyman is probably someone who’s all wet (“boggy” is a real word) and is out standing in the field.

Good post. Churches have traditionally received tax-exempt status because they are “non-profits” as are many other charities. I have no problem with this if they steer clear of overt politics, which doesn’t appear to be the case with the Catholic Church.
..
Your point regarding their receipt of government largresse was particularly salient.

A church with a salad bar and happy hour would be a good idea. A full dinner buffet w/ dessert would be even better. Praise the Lord and pass the potatoes. Give peas a chance.

Beckistan is a good one. I’ll bet we can hit 300.

Fields are probably all wet from Beck’s crying.

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Oh, come on!
don’t tell me a Fiction. The distrbution of wealth is from the botom to the top. 90 % of Americans are working for the good of a very few and the Government which you scorn is nothing other than an instrument for these very few. You haven’t uttered a word about he Bailout of the wall street. Now you are trying to confuse. Dear freund you are wrong. It is the working people of America who is financing the few rich citzens.

I wonder if the reporters here get bonuses based on page hits. If so, then hopefully Amy can have a nice dinner with lots of wine …thanks to us.

…just ten votes? How many times did you vote, rusty?

Well, I guess that is a signal that this thread is over. Have a good night everybody.

…do you sell religious-themed stuff like John the Baptist shower curtains and The World is Coming to an End™ lawn furniture?

The thread count here is good but this is probably still one of my favorite Amy posts –
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/10/05/coming-soon-the-new-international-free-market-bible/
…the replies even began with rusty under his real rustyname and a love sonnet for Beck. How sweet.

Hmm, so if we can find (or create) a church that has happy hour, a dinner buffet with salad and dessert bars, and sells John the Baptist shower curtains and The World is Coming to an End™ lawn furniture, maybe we can get lovely Amy’s blessing and thus finally have an effective means to fight Beck.

Just a long list of devisive issues used by the right-wing to seperate people, while they keep collecting from their corporate master. Faux is the propaganda arm of the Republican party, no more, no less.

sechandler912,

There is a concept in psychology called “projection”
(look it up, psychologists can explain it far better than I could).
More or less, it can and does happen to anybody. It is when somebody so hates something about themselves that they believe it not to be true about themselves but about others.

You are bringing up “histrionics”, “lies” and (a concept not really in psychology as it is used) “brain washing” while defending a man who accuses ministers, priests and other clergy members who at the very least in their intention are good people in their intention. If one were to, hypothetically, make a help wanted ad for clergy (as if people did not know what it was, as well) it would, obviously, include “A persistent desire to do what is best for others with no concern for your own profit or well being”. (No, this is not all clergy all of the time – but that is not what I am saying).

Your histrionic professional ranter and raver Glenn Beck just accused a very large share of these professional nice guys and accused them of being secretly in a conspiracy combining two horrible ideologies both dead (Communism and Nazism/Fascism) which completely contradict one another.

So, are you sure that you have the right side who is lying and being histrionic?

This appears to be projection.
You do not wish to believe that you are defending a totally unreasonable person.

Thankfully, unlike Hitler, Glenn Beck has no anticipated future in serving in political office. He will just get very highly paid by the corporate elites to drive people like sechandler912 to vote and act against their own best interest.

Sechandler912,

Concerning your last comment: I know many
“middle American, solid working class, intelligent, grounded individuals” who cannot stand beck and think he is a crackpot. I know Republicans who also think he is a crackpot. David Frum, a conservative I strongly disagree with, one who worked on Bush’s staff, has condemned beck and limbaugh, saying they are bad for the party.

I have heard many try to protect beck with the defense you use….that while he’s “flamboyant and incendiary,” he “speaks the truth.”

I am sorry. beck has joked about putting poison in Nancy Pelosi’s wine in a skit he did last year. He has mused about killing Michael Moore, whether he should do it himself or hire someone to do so. Since when has it become acceptable for someone to joke about murdering someone on a national cable or radio show?

beck has called some of the victims of Hurricane Katrina “scumbags,” saying that he didn’t think anyone could get worse than some of the 9-11 victims. He said evil things about some of the 9-11 victims who apparently were still complaining (I say grieving) about that tragic day.

Look at comment number 4 above from Trifect55. I did look that up. It appears as if beck really do that. In his early radio days as an AM morning zoo shock jock, he had an enemy at another radio station. When that other radio personality’s wife had a miscarriage, beck called his wife 3 days after the miscarriage and apparently put her on air. He made some comment to the effect that that other radio jock can’t do anything right…..he can’t even have a baby with his wife.

THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE. beck is EVIL. I don’t care what else he says; it is immoral to do what beck did to that woman who had a miscarriage. It is pure hate that he said what he said about those Katrina and 9-11 victims.

I don’t care if I agreed 100% with what beck says (which I do not); I would not like the jerk.

You forgot, sacredh, progressives are not only supposed to be welfare cheats and drug addicts, we are, also, supposed to snack between meals by eating live newborn babies during Satanic rituals.

We are supposed to be God haters in every single way.

“…and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare FOR HIM THAT REPROVETH in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.”
–Isaiah 29:20b-21
.
GLENN BECK IS TELLING US THE TRUTH,
and for this he is mocked by Useful Idiots
(Lenin’s term) hiding behind their “Jesus”
– a Robin Hood CARICATURE of the Biblical Jesus
who said, “ye be witnesses unto yourselves that you are the children of them which killed the prophets”
–Matt. 23:31 (also Matt. 24:4-5)

Blechh, limbo, o’really, hammity, makes no difference. They are the American equivalent of the vile mullahs who spew hate, filth and violence from mosques around the world. You know, our enemies?
I am sick just knowing these absolute stains on the good earth, especially on the land of the USA are even allowed to live free, let alone rant obnoxious fumes and become obscenely rich in the bargain.
I suppose that makes them successes in the greedy, capitalistic world they promote and inhabit.

“…they’ll never actually try hard to get Roe v Wade overturned…”
I completely agree!

If it were not for Roe vs. Wade, worshipers of corporate profits above and beyond all else, nationalists believing in a let’s say expansionist foreign policy (like expanding into Iraq in 2003 among other things) would never, ever vote for the same party.

Christians rally around the Republican party almost exclusively to see the repeal of Roe vs Wade and are not especially likely to believe in big business being totally deregulated and allowed to dominate our society.

So, for Republicans, Roe vs Wade is a huge cash cow and a huge, if I may coin a term, vote cow, too.

LOL

What redistribution of wealth. Have any of you people on the right drinking this koolaid being sold to you by the right taken a look lately at the Forbes wealthiest people in the world list. Any idea what Beck and Oreilly make a year? What a bunch of damn sheep. Now Beck is telling you to forget what that guy Jesus has preached and wrote in that book called the bible and somehow links that to Obama and healthcare and you’re all buying that? What fools are you? Bigotry murders religion to frighten fools with her ghost.

No question that he’s a jerk. But this sounds out of the park, even for him. Do you have a source for this story?

300 comments, yay! Amy, dinner’s on us, enjoy your bonus. What’s your favorite wine?

We hit 300.

Let’s stop bashing everybody. Let’s come up with solutions to solving our problems. It is easy to bash others whether it is Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity, O’Rielly, John Q. Public. I don’t support people who bash others. Who I will support is someone with a solution. Where are the solutions??? Come on people propose solutions that have teeth. You can’t solve anything by just stonewalling to get your own way. Negoitiation and compromise is the art of making progress. If negotiation and compromise are not used, then you get either one party or the other party ramming something down our throats. Is our American education system so broke that we are producing morons who can’t work together to iron these differences out??? I believe that our elected officials get elected simply by popularity and money. I’m not sure that we have the best people in Congress if they can’t come to terms on issues. Move ahead folks, American is decaying at its roots. The infrastructure of our transporation system is horrible compared to many other nations. We have the greatest country in the world and we are losing it!!! Gridlock isn’t the answer. Don’t let partisan politics stymie the progress of our nation!!!

This is from the Second Vatican Council’s Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, and, relatively recent or not, is to be considered authoritative for Catholics (retrieved from http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html):

“Therefore, although rightful differences exist between men, the equal dignity of persons demands that a more humane and just condition of life be brought about. For excessive economic and social differences between the members of the one human family or population groups cause scandal, and militate against social justice, equity, the dignity of the human person, as well as social and international peace.”

And again: “Profound and rapid changes make it more necessary that no one ignoring the trend of events or drugged by laziness, content himself with a merely individualistic morality. It grows increasingly true that the obligations of justice and love are fulfilled only if each person, contributing to the common good, according to his own abilities and the needs of others, also promotes and assists the public and private institutions dedicated to bettering the conditions of human life. Yet there are those who, while possessing grand and rather noble sentiments, nevertheless in reality live always as if they cared nothing for the needs of society. Many in various places even make light of social laws and precepts, and do not hesitate to resort to various frauds and deceptions in avoiding just taxes or other debts due to society. Others think little of certain norms of social life, for example those designed for the protection of health, or laws establishing speed limits; they do not even avert to the fact that by such indifference they imperil their own life and that of others.”

I do not speak for the Catholic hierarchy, but I think these passages speak for themselves.

Amy: (Not to mention the teaching of a certain fellow from Nazareth who was always blathering on about justice…)
.
Was this certain fellow Jesus or Brian?

Ok, I’ll try ONE MORE TIME. Anyone want to admit that there’s truth on the other side of your argument WITH me? I’m not trying to say Glenn Beck is God, a prophet or anything else. I watch Fox, I watch CNN. When I sit with both Channels I hear spin. One Left, one right. Get it? The left one seems more insidious because they speak calmer (sometimes) and often sound more intellectually appealing. No, don’t reply to that last statement and say I’m an idiot or have no intelligence (grad summa cum laude back east thanks). I know about psychology because I’m a therapist. I know he’s histrionic, and I don’t like that about him. But he’s got me reading history, he’s got me thinking. The MSM is so obviously in the tank for the liberal perspective, that I can’t support that either, with this ridiculous deficit crushing us. Yes both did it.

The answer: Everyone frankly needs to repent. The Federal Govt is broke. It is corrupt. Your states and local govts are probably too, but you have more control there. The Fed is too far away from the person that needs help. The global answers sound appealing, look like they work in Sweden, wherever. Except compare GDPs, cultures (Sweden is not a melting pot with our diversity and history). The American people have forgotten their roots. The Christians need to, the Muslims, the atheists, the whoevers. We spend too much, we want something for nothing, and we’ve forgotten God, natural laws, etc. It won’t work. History tells us so. Beck’s not my God, I get tired of his rants too, but I listen to him regularly because he breaks stories before the MSM does (seriously I watch both and he’s 2 weeks ahead of CNN regularly). He has touched a nerve. Those of you who wish to pick at him for being a recovering alcoholic–don’t write back again — I KNOW HE IS. I never in my career would think I’d believe an alcoholic over other seemingly more rational people. But if he’s cut on Pelosi I can’t say much because that woman is as corrupt a public figure as I’ve seen–they apparently almost all are once they get up too high.

By the way, repentance in Greek means a change of mind, ie a fresh view about God, about oneself and about the world.

I just wrote truth–don’t write back and cut me down about it. Take what you find in it if you’re so inclined, and leave the rest. I’m so grateful after reading all this yuck that my mother taught me not to do this. Someone should wash a bunch of mouths out and say “Behave with some respect.”

Fine, Chriss, I watched the propoganda.

First, the woman was making a comparison between Christianity and the desire to do good with revolution with the implication due to her, also, selecting Mother Theresa and being at a church to say that she was not even vaguely implying brute force. It is commonly accepted that the rivalry between Christianity and Communism is that they are both philosophies intended to inspire selfless acts for the betterment of mankind.

Everybody who has a clue knows that violence and communism lost.

Second, the part of “the free market” being a joke did not have any implication whatsoever in the actual words said that he intended to abolish business or anything like that. He was saying that stock and future markets were manipulated by people with inside knowledge or withholding information to become a game to get more money without serving the public good as classical economics would predict.

For example – I wish Beck was fair and let us see the examples brought up – the big credit crunch happened when banks making use of their close ties to the rating agencies they hired to get high ratings on their bonds made up of mortgages. Those mortgages included some where, very unethically, the lender had lent more than the borrower could afford to borrow. So, this was a hidden “toxic asset”.
Calling this, as Republicans have, the “free market” is a joke since it was a process in which lenders lied to borrowers to get as much hypothetical money as they could, took these loans into another lie and made it into a bond with no real value but, with the help of rating agencies, created yet another lie when investors bought these bonds.

Look up in Economics what is required for a free market. One aspect after “perfect competition” is “perfect knowledge”.
Pretending that investors bought toxic assets knowing that they would be the owners of a foreclosed house is a joke. No reasonable investor would toss their money in the garbage that way.

Next, Van Jones.
Nearly nothing in that of the controversial aspects included Jones actual words.
Had Jones aspired to such insane ideas but changed his point of view, then that is fine with me as it should be fine with you if your fellow tea partier was once a progressive.
Also, advisers have no power. They get some kind of pay, but do not have any administration beneath them.

Next, what is wrong with people either going from prison to becoming solar panel installers or, better than that, having a chance to get hired at a young age and trained to install solar panels instead of selling drugs on the street.

It is obvious to me that if Glenn Beck told you that the sky was Red and the ocean is green you would not look outside but take his word for it.

He cut and paste words together to give a very false impression.

It’s in the section about his time in Phoenix.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/09/22/glenn_beck_two

“The animosity between Beck and Kelly continued to deepen. When Beck and Hattrick produced a local version of Orson Welles’ “War of the Worlds” for Halloween — a recurring motif in Beck’s life and career — Kelly told a local reporter that the bit was a stupid rip-off of a syndicated gag. The slight outraged Beck, who got his revenge with what may rank as one of the cruelest bits in the history of morning radio. “A couple days after Kelly’s wife, Terry, had a miscarriage, Beck called her live on the air and says, ‘We hear you had a miscarriage,’ ” remembers Brad Miller, a former Y95 DJ and Clear Channel programmer. “When Terry said, ‘Yes,’ Beck proceeded to joke about how Bruce [Kelly] apparently can’t do anything right — about he can’t even have a baby.”"

Note: Kelly and Beck had been friends and partners in previous years.

Samfrog,

I have been debating since this morning and believe I found that you made a very significant – huge – error with, strangely enough, the example I gave: Norway.

Norway has less than one person for every sixty people in America.

It appears, however, that it has just over two billion in charitable donations while the US has 22.

Hence, we can agree that per capita giving is what is being debated since religion and taxes are not the cause of Norway being so much lower in population.

To round it off to sixty times as many people, if we gave as much as Norwegians, we would be giving away 120 billion instead of 22 Billion.

I looked up Norway when I saw Michael Moore’s movie “Sicko”.

Since I regard Michael Moore as a good entertainer (if you are progressive only) and often weak on facts, I did not suspect that it was true that Norway had more giving than the US per person or, if so, not five or six times as much.

Double check that since I have spent so long on this blog I am prone to errors right now.

Funny, I thought this was about Mr. Beck vs. churches. But, since we’re going at it, only the white Good and Plenty’s are worth eating and Karl Rove is proud of that, too.

Chriss,

Almost nobody is a supporter of GWB today.
However, I think it is safe to say that he was not vaguely similar to Hitler in any ideological way and did not lead to anywhere near as many premature deaths from his actions.

Hence, grabbing from history terrible people and convincing people that this comparison is even vaguely literal is incredibly deceptive.

Glenn Beck is like Ted Bundy!
He is a serial killer who is going to murder and eat gay people!

No he’s not anything like Ted Bundy.

He is similar to Rush Limbaugh: a very manipulative talk show host likely to make very large amounts of money from distorting what progressives say and do with the goal of gaining fame and fortune at the expense of truth and, for his listeners, a chance to understand how to get into an honest debate.

Are we allowed to say the word “Jehovah” here? I doubt Amy will mind.

If you honestly think that Obama is a far left wing nut, ask any true left winger what they think of his policies and positions to date. He has been a HUGE disappointment to the liberal movement. The health reform bill, for example, is a JOKE. Single payer health care, which is what the left wanted, wasn’t even on the table at any point. The closest they got was the public option, one little plan among dozens of private plans.

And as far as Obama taking away your right to earn a living.. last I heard, Glenn Beck was still living in his $4 million mansion. In fact, Obama signed a foreclosure prevention bill into law that allows people to stay in their homes and avoid foreclosure. I don’t see him taking away anything of anybody.

Bottom line is that Obama is to so-called big government socialism was George W Bush was to small government libertarianism and non-interventionist foreign policy.

Oh, and income redistribution has been here for many years. Back when a man could earn a living for his family without a college education and not be drowning in debt (1960s), tax rates for the rich were more than double what they are now. Now they’re down to the 30%’s, and the middle class is drowning in taxes trying to pay for everything. Thank Reagan for income redistribution.

Just as a reminder, Reagan also raised taxes several times on the middle class, despite the perception that he was a tax cutter. He raised them 4 times alone during his first term. Wow… what a commie socialist.

And Bruce Springsteen is a card carrying pinko somnambulist.

de: My ex and I used to own a cranberry bog. Indeed it was very boggy and wet.

Why Mormons (Read: Glenn Beck) Are Not Christian.
First: Mormons do not follow or believe in the historic Jesus Christ of the Bible, but rather in a different Jesus. This is why most Biblical Christians emphatically insist that Mormons are not Christians.
The god of the Mormons is not the God of the Bible. To the Mormons, Jesus is the firstborn son of an exalted “man” who became the god of this world. The man-god of Mormonism was made the god of this world because of his good works on another planet somewhere out in the universe. He “earned” godhood, and was thus appointed by a counsel of gods in the heavens to his high position as the god of planet Earth. The Mormon god of this world was a man, like all men, who became a god. This is what the celestial marriage and the temple vows are all about. LDS men, by doing their temple work, are striving for exaltation by which they, too, shall one day become gods. Their wives will be the mother goddesses of “their” world and with their husband will produce the population of their world. This is the Mormon doctrine of “eternal progression.”
Note the following quote from the Mormon Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, page 123, made by the LDS

Apostle Orson Hyde:

“Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, a mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point were He is.”

sechandler912,

Read about the history of the United States from 1900 through 1950.

See if you can get textbooks which are, also, on a syllabus at a highly rated college and soon you will discover that, although imperfect to say the least, your tea party concepts are based upon false information.

Holding hands, using the faith community and other non-profits was a complete and appalling disaster.

Also, read and/or watch documentaries about both Fascists and Communists. They both are so incredibly unlike our centrist beliefs and government that putting them in the same sentence as anybody in office now or in our grandparents’ lifetime inside the US is pathetically absurd.

Read about John Maynard Keynes. His monetary theories were ripped to shreds by Milton Friedman, but, his other theories have been proven true over and over.

It’s all dry, and, if you will, nerdy stuff, but, if you could make it through Freud (a sick, sick man), etc, you could easily find out how manipulative these people are and how CNN has been forming a somewhat conservative, not a liberal bias since Fox was created fourteen years ago.

If you are a therapist, then you are far too bright for such unsound ideas as the Tea Party and Glenn Beck.

I am not being overly partisan when I tell you that, with two psychologists in my extended family, I would be wonder about your soundness even in your work when you espouse such pathetic ideas.

It makes me think that you might have cheated on your exams.

Sechandler012,

If you are a therpist, you certainly do not seem like one. No one here has complained that he is an alcoholic or drug addict, recovering. No one. In fact, in one of my blogs in the last 24 hours (don’t remember if it was on Time.com or another one), I said that it is admirable that beck has stopped his alcohol and drug use.

We are complaining about the fact that the man has criticized good people. He has used the nazi imagery to describe Obama, and for that, I strongly condemn beck. When you walk up to the average person on the street and ask him about nazis, the first thought that comes to mind is the mass murdering of 6 million Jews. Then you think of the 50 or 60 million that died in WWII as a result of nazism.

beck, in spite of any good intentions you think he might have, is evil. He uses “nazis” for political advantage. In the past, he has used Katrina victims as well as 9-11 victims for his advantage.

The guy is seriously evil.

I don’t care if you graduated Magna Sum Lauda. I graduated 2nd in my class of 205 at a Jesuit High school, out of a class of 205. I apparently have differnt point of view than you do.

I don’t think anyone on this blog has said that they are condemning beck because others think he is infallible, because he is “god”, because he is “perfect.” That is the argument you are using…..that we are condeming beck because he is such. No, beck is not “perfect”; he is not “god.”

And we are not condenmning him for believeing such.

We are condemning beck because he is an ass hole; he is not telling the truth; he himself condemns people with whom he disagrees with and calls names.

Sechandler912….I seriously doubt you are serious and you are what you claim you are. A serious therapist would not say the things you do.

Is Beck speaking about the Christian church–followers of the One who began his Galilean ministry with these words from Isaiah: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anionted me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed to free…(Luke 4:18)? Has he actually read the gospels? Or encountered the Christ, who told his followers that what they did to the “least of these” they did to him? Social justice is at the heart of the Gospel, because loving care for all God’s children is at the heart of God.

I kind of like this idea.. it makes some sense… If God is some distant creator that is perfect.. then why would he be concerned for us as human beings.. Why would he create such messy beings and then turn around and ask us to praise him. as if this strokes his ego or something… I just don’t get it… at least with Mormons they seem to have a real personal relationship with God in their belief. If God is literally our spiritual Father in Heaven then it finally makes sense for him to come to earth and die for us.. if we were any less than Gods children then why would God care? … just a thought I was thinking as I read your comment.

but remember Mercy cannot rob Justice… that includes social justice.

65.5……

I will use a hannity tactic.. I was not talking about Olbermann. I was talking about beck.. You SOB. You f’cn f’ck. you have not answered my comment about beck being a tax cheat, inspite of the fact that that f’tard accuses Obama appointees are such.

Sounds like Beck and Sullivan both have failed to realize that using the law to mandate indigent care is itself a social injustice in that it relies on the death-dealing, coercive power of government to require what ought to be an act of charity. It may be wrong for me to withhold my “excess” wealth from a needy neighbor, but it’s far more unjust for that neighbor to round up a few gun-toting tax collectors to take from me whatever he deems I can live without.

Den judge and dear patrick – Wow, I have to tell you, I don’t call you names, but here come yours at me. You seriously did not hear any rationality in my words? I don’t know what to tell you, but I get to be a real person after work, and I get to have my opinions. I read back through my words, and I’m not hearing crazy projectioning–from me. I heard “read textbooks from 1900-1950′s”. Yeah, that’s the point. If you love Woodrow Wilson, then of course you’re opposed to what he’s saying. If you think all unions are good all the time, then of course you’ll hate him. I get that. Can’t we disagree without your trying to slur my character, my professionalism etc? Quite honestly, you’re proving what he says… Progressives want to be right, believe themselves superior and will malign you if they don’t feel they can win the argument. I don’t know, after this harangue, I feel like I need a Beck dose to detox from verbal abuse. THAT I recognize, even couched in intellectual speak.

I said what I said because of what I read and what you continue to say. If you can support Pelosi, Reid, Obama, et al, then you must be able to see past people’s weaknesses and their sins (that 2700 page piece of crap is not worthy of a vote–if they truly were people of character they would demand better of themselves and I’d see them out stumping for a reawakening of people’s characters, a return to sound principles and values–wait… that’s what I hear on Beck minus his animation)… That’s where I’m at with Beck. I see past his weaknesses, because he’s one of the closest (besides church and scriptures and prayer) I’m getting on the TV. Now, I’m quite happy to turn off the TV — because the close is not SO CLOSE. I was thinking about it today. God’s laws are so simple–the 10 commandments take up a 1/2 page. There are others, but you could state them in maybe 2 – 3pages. The rest of the scriptures are examples of how they’re applied. I suggest we go back to living the simple principles, go back local and take our communities back, and start living sustainable laws. Seriously, why do you people NEVER address the deficit? In therapy, we always try to look for the symptoms, and then try to treat the ROOT of the problem. Trace the deficit problems back through 1900–see where it got off… Both parties contributed: Dems and their programs and Reps that can’t stop them and apparently never learned that you can’t spend more than you earn. Gotta love those politicians.

Christ would probably want us to be kind and giving because we love our neighbor. Not because the government mandates us to be “charitable”. Besides who determines who is needy and who is not? I think it best left up to individuals and churches to decide who to help and who are fakers. The bible teaches us to judge righteously (as in the way we would like to be judged) unless you use the new age hippie bible that teaches us not to judge at all. Hand outs are not charitable especially blanket or broadbrush handouts that government is so good at. These type of handouts do not help the poor as it is not getting to the root cause of the problem. Sometimes a swift kick in the ASS is more helpful.
As this entitlement generation continues to demand to be taken care of… we will lose our freedoms as mercy can not rob justice.

“He’s not the Messiah. He’s a very naughty boy.”
– Life of Brian

I love how right wing pundits are so ideologically driven that they’ll try to convince religious folks that Jesus was wrong. Meanwhile demagoguery is the new favored term for insulting the left, which is nice, because ‘dithering’ had been so overused in Washington it was starting to lose its folksy touch.
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Glenn Beck’s statement, basically, is that the evil that he reads into socialism predates or overrules the Bible. Jesus thought taking care of the needs of the disadvantaged was a good idea? He’s wrong, and you were wrong for believing him, and here’s why: thats socialism. And we all know what that word means. Or do we?
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For anybody who’s paying attention, the ideology of Beck and his Fox News cohorts is essentially self defeating. Markets clearly do not naturally result in good outcomes, they don’t even skew towards them, as is clearly evidenced by the intense profitability of a news organization which is, either, indefensibly manipulative, or incomprehensibly ignorant. Markets are flawed for the same reason Fox News is profitable: the consumer is rarely rational.

What do you know about Jesus? what do you know about the Bible? Which bible do you smoke? the one made of hemp?

If you wish to Go Galt™, have fun. We’ll get by just fine. I’d only ask that while on your way to Colorado you stay true to your principles and NOT use public roads or anything else that was paid for with stolen tax money.

You’re totally are ignorant to what Beck is saying… Beck tried feeding you a steak when you are still on formula. You think that all the truth about God and Jesus and the universe is contained in the Bible? I dare contend it is not. problem is Beck apparently is not in your typical Christian Box.

Sounds like you had a very different LDS experience than I did.

I was told the 10 percent tithe was not optional, and the Elders that came to my apartment were very pushy about me finding a way to give 10 percent of my very limited income to the church.

Maybe they could not make me give 10 percent, but they sure put alot of guilt and pressure on me.

What parts about God, Jesus, and the universe aren’t in the Bible?

The parts that were left out…. many books were left out of the bible… you know that. book of jubilees. book of enoch. other letters written by paul etc. etc. etc etc. some books are mentioned in the bible that are not contained in the bible. And there are many modern day science books that shed light and knowledge about the universe. Things that are not contained in the bible… unless you are a shaman and can somehow read the shit in there.

Beale criticizes the problems with media and our culture. Beck epitomizes the problems with media and our culture.

Texas Lilly Rose – Sorry you were misinformed by some elders. There are plenty of mistakes and things that go on. When you delegate power as much as the church does, things like that will happen. I was a missionary for the church, and have been a member for 28 years, living in US and abroad. Usually one talk on tithing in sacrament meeting, I pay online every month so no one sees what I give, one lesson in Sunday school per year. It is always about the blessings that come. The Lord doesn’t NEED our money, it’s for us to receive the blessing of giving. We also fast once a month and donate that money and more to the poor and needy. That money is distributed very carefully and thoughtfully.

Kinda what my point is about government. If they handled my taxes fairly, if it was done the Lord’s way (10% by everyone), and they used prudence, wisdom and good judgment in their use, I might reconsider my position. Please give me one example of a Federal law that was passed where our funds are being used prudently, honestly, wisely and are not disabling anyone, but are truly fostering self-reliance in all parties. Please? I think the deficit speaks to my answer. Again, BOTH parties are complicit.

Glenn Beck is just an idit!!

Glenn Beck is just an idit!!!

None of you get it: Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity, et al, are not followers of Jesus, they are followers of Ayn Rand, they use religion as a front to push their Randian brand of greed-is-good; all they care about is their own selfish interests as their mentor preached… (Alan Greenspan was a follower of Ayn Rand and went to her funeral)…So, stop wasting your time thinking they give a crap about Jesus or any bit of his philosophy, let alone his precepts, they don’t. Check out Rand and you will see what the whole Republican ethos embodies her theology of serving one’s self interest and survival of the fittest, and to hell with the rest of humanity.

I’m compelled to comment based on reading the fascinating posts in this commentary section.
I don’t know whether Glen Beck hates Jesus, or even thinks about Jesus. He cares about ratings, and he’s tapped into a highly rewarding market by preaching to a choir of pissed off and willfully ignorant people, and it’s made him far wealthier than any of those people can ever hope to be, and therefore immune to the result, successful or not, that he advocates, which is essentially the destruction of American ideals as written in the Constitution.
I don’t think “consevatives” ( and by the term I don’t mean old school conservatives, but rather those who refer to everyone they disagree with as “liberal.” ) have any consistency in their philosophy, which is what is so maddening to those of us who actually think.
I’ve read a number of posts extolling the virtue of doing for one’s self (God helps those, etc.). So one would think they would be fundamentally at odds with Capitalism, which is, after all, a system that provides the means to become fabulously wealthy by not doing any work at all.
They are against welfare, and never miss a chance to condemn it as a way of cloaking their racism, but are also against affirmative action, which essentiallly mandates that the most qualified person be hired for a job, and they treat that notion as offensive.
They talk about the deficit, but as I recall, rabidly supported the previous administration, whose spending and increase to the deficit was unparalled.
They are agaist “big government”. But our government is based on the Constitution, which for the first time in history empowered the common man by making HIM the government. I would suggest to those who want smaller government: move to a smaller country, with less resources. Because you are going to have a big government one way or another, and I for one don’t feel like learning Chinese at this stage of my life.
They criticize the Obama administration’s attempt to make affordable, fair health care available as an intrusion on their rights..But had no problem with the government, under Cheney’s rule, listening to their private phone calls and emails.
But reading through this string, I don’t hear any one speaking about social justice as an alternative to charity, which is what the Church has traditionally practiced. Social justice IS teaching a man to fish, and these so called conservatives are against that, too.
Essentially, I think Jesse Jackson nailed it when he said that what remains of the Republican Party is merely the remnants of the Confederacy.

Beale was driven insane by a network that then encouraged his ravings. It was about ratings and money. The network head of UBS could have been called Rupert Murdoch.
Beck isn’t insane. He is a cold and calculating false prophet.
Paddy Chayefsky was a brilliant writer who was prescient in his understanding of where the future of news was headed. And, by gosh we are there.

And to my point about Beck and breaking the news — I just watched 60 Minutes tonight where writer Lewis is telling the story about Goldman Sachs having all these ties to government policy makers (uh Bush people but even more in Obama Admin–hmmm…) PROBABLY contributing to the Wall Street financial mess. Uhh…

Check out Beck on this one seven months ago…

Where’s the MSM on this (oh, 7 months late)? Well, THIS CORRUPTION is the bigger problem in my book — We should ALL stop fighting about Beck, and focus on the corruption on BOTH sides that he’s pointing out. Can this country humble themselves and start getting our houses in order? Most of you have wasted our day spouting your “I’m right”s. Both sides seem to be missing the truths. You’re looking to misunderstand, not understand. I feel like I’m doing therapy with a couple in my office. Prediction: Divorce, unless they can start sifting through Is and Yous and start focusing on US and WE. We all have a problem folks… What are WE gonna do to solve it?

Can we hit 400 for Amy?

@sacredh- I knew I should have taken the bet when given the opportunity. If we get to 400, will you buy us all a coke? If so, I have a thumb that needs to get placed on some scales …

Simple answer to that: HE IS AN ARSEHOLE

Exiled_At_Home is pretty much on the mark.

The Puritans who came to the colonies were not trying to escape persecution. They weren’t being persecuted for their beliefs. They left England and the Netherlands because they felt that the Protestant Reformation had not gone far enough in those countries and they wanted to do things their own way, more “puritanically,” so to speak. The Puritans were actually very intolerant of other Christian sects and practices, especially those of the Catholics and Episcopalians, and their intention in setting up shop in the colonies was to establish a separatist community. During their time in Massachusetts, they banished the Quakers for their religious tolerance, Roger Williams for advocating the separation of church and state, and Anne Hutchinson for daring to preach and conduct Bible-study classes.

Sources? Much of this I learned many years ago in high-school, college, and graduate school. But I can definitely recall that we read some Perry Miller, some of the great Francis Jennings (“The Invasion of America”), and Sacvan Bercovitch’s “The Puritan Origins of the American Self.” More recently I’ve read Jon Meacham’s book “American Gospel” and “American Jezebel,” Eve LaPlante’s book on Anne Hutchinson.

And leaving aside the Puritans for a moment, the crap that Beck spews about “social justice” and its association with Nazism and Communism is just that – crap. Having studied Nazism, from its roots in the 19th century pan-German movement to the present day, I can guarantee that the last thing that the Nazis wanted, talked about, and wrote about was “social justice,” beyond the whining they did about wanting to achieve racial purity and having been victimized by the Jews and the Slavs. And while “social justice” may have been a principle that Marx advocated as part of his complex and largely misunderstood politico-economic philosophy, his ideas and ideals were perverted by totalitarian regimes that sought mostly military-industrial power and hegemony.

sechandler912 @13.14
So what you’re saying is that it’s OK for Glenn Beck or anyone else for that matter, to “bear false witness against one’s neighbor” 90% of the time, as long as he says something factual once in a while? Are all the commandments that malleable? Is it OK for me to worship other gods whenever I wish as long as I pay tribute to “the” God on occasion. What about stealing, adultery, or even murder? Is it OK to commit those acts whenever is suits one’s purpose or furthers one’s agenda, as long as one refrains from them 5 or 10 percent of the time? Wow, I’d never read the commandments that way, and here I’ve been wasting my life trying to follow them all of the time.

Regarding the deficit, I think you need to do a little more research here. The majority of the deficit over the next 10 years, and probably longer will be attributable to the Bush tax cuts(passed by Republicans using reconciliation) and the horrible wars that Bush started and bungled, see figure 1 here: http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036.

Lastly, I don’t know where you acquired this notion that “progressives want to be right and believe themselves superior” but I’d be interested to see on what facts do you base this statement. Is it one of the “truths” that you think Glenn Beck speaks? I’ve heard it on several conservative radio programs, and it’s one of those statements that make me change the station, because it simply has no basis in fact

You’ve really distorted the work that Rev. Wallis has done. And I have news for you. The Rev. Wallis is more of a Christian, and probably more of a human, than you will ever be.

To Icky9: You need to read the New Testament again, and take a look at the prophets in the Hebrew Bible before you make such stupid statements. Social justice is most certainly what was preached by Jesus and the prophets.

And, to consumer007: The “moneychangers” were NOT a corporation. They were there so that people coming from far away could exchange their currency so they could purchase their offerings to the temple.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/12/glenn-beck-finally-gets-a_n_497360.html
Beck is the man who just figured out the lyrics of “Born in the USA” and is now condemning Bruce Springsteen.
I guess Springsteen’s call for social justice is also unacceptable.

“The Social Gospel movement emphasized the individual’s duty toward “society” as opposed to the individual’s duty towards other individuals.”

Are we splitting hairs here? Since humans ARE social animals – and as far as I know we always have been – wouldn’t our “duty towards other individuals” be part and parcel of our “duty toward ‘society’”? For example, if you help a man find a job and that man has a family or other people that depend on his income for their livelihood aren’t you helping his family, and by extension the community in which he lives, etc.

I don’t think that any of those who preached the “Social Gospel” (and I think particularly of Dorothy Day, MLK, the Berrigans, and James Cone) would slice and dice it the way your statement suggests.

Excellent comment.

But I’m worried that your last sentence may have given the producers at Fox News an idea!

President Obama has absolutely no intention of getting rid of the tax deduction for charitable giving. That is an out and out lie, which, given the fact that you are in thrall to Beck, should come as no surprise.

newfreedomblog wrote:

“Tell the truth sacredh, you and your brood all worship Satan and hold Pagan rituals in your backyard sacrificing the little girls you abduct.”

Projecting, are we?

Sorry about your MS. I have two family members and a couple of friends with it, so I’m familiar with what you must be going through.

That being said, I think Ms. Sullivan objects to Beck because he consistently distorts, misinforms, hatemongers, preys on peoples’ insecurities and fears, fosters paranoia and distrust, and generally gives the impression that he doesn’t like people very much and doesn’t want anyone else to like them either. He practices the tactics of Goebbels and McCarthy, neither of which are healthy for an informed citizenry and an open democracy. He also tries to come off as a compassionate saint, when he is neither compassionate nor saintly. He has a big irresponsible mouth, which has accorded him a big, and largely irresponsible, fan base.

Social justice would definitely include economic justice, as economic parity would be something that would be part of a socially just world.

Some who have written on the concept of “social justice,” although they may not have specifically called it “social justice,” are John Rawls, John Stuart Mill, John Locke, and, from a theological point of view, John Ryan. Rawls’ “A Theory of Justice” details his concept of justice as “fairness” and he also tackles the issue of “distributive justice.” It’s a fairly lengthy volume, but richly rewards the time and effort.

Also, the prophets in the Hebrew Bible definitely included economic justice when they spoke of justice, and many of the 613 mitzvot dealt with ideals of economic justice and fairness. As a practicing Jew, Jesus would have recognized those ideals.

The US may not lead the world in charitable giving if you adjust for the fact that the bulk of our charitable giving is to our own churches. In most European countries, there is a “state church” which receives support from the government, and not from charitable giving or tithing. If you remove charitable giving to churches from the equation, Europeans probably contribute as much as we do and possibly more.

“Blessed are the cheesemakers.”
– Life of Brian

…probably more like envy.

When “60 Minutes” finally gets around to investigating a story, it’s usually been reported on much earlier by reliable investigative reporters who don’t work for cable television. And Beck certainly doesn’t qualify as a journalist or truth-teller in any way, shape, or form. The Goldman Sachs connections to policy makers and regulatory agencies in our government, since before the Clinton administration, have been pretty widely known for some time. And, as long as everything seemed to be going OK for the power-that-be, everyone. except a few intrepid investigative reporters working for obscure journals, pretty much ignored the corruption.

As Ecclesiastes said there truly is “nothing new under the sun.” Not even Beck’s insane raving and fearmongering.

Rusty, did you vote enough times at your own poll to get the results you wanted?

I couldn’t bear to slog through all of the comments here so I zipped to the end, and I’m glad I did. Thanks for your cogent and rational post. And I, too, have come to agree with Rev. Jackson’s characterization of the Republican Party, and nothing has made it more evident than the election of our first African-American president.

samfrog2

“I don’t see anyone in this thread of comments advocating or not advocating anything regarding what you have posted.”
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Excuse me?.., did you not bring up the topic of “taxes,” “TAKE from others,” and their biblical significance?
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“The comments I made are in conjunction with all taxation and their implementation. My comments are mostly on the personal choices we all make and how we live our lives.”
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And how did my comments deviate from that?
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“Generalizations don’t add to debate.”
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Um.., I believe I was quite specific in my perspective on tax use SIR.
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“If you do not believe in war – than you should not have to contribute to it. You should be able to direct the tax money to an area of where you feel it will do the most good.”
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OK.., how do you direct the tax money then?
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“Please don’t imply or put words into my statements that are not there.”
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Exactly what “word” or “implication” did I put into your statements? I addressed your statements directly and quite within context!
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“And where exactly in anything I have posted have I said you couldn’t lobby or vote or try to change legislation on where your taxes go?”
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Nowhere! And where did I say that you said or implied any of that?.
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“I fail to see your point regarding any of my comments.”
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I Know.
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“You have commented on nothing I have said or advocated. You have lumped people together without cause.”
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Then you sir are clinically blind. What people have I lumped together? Christians perhaps? I happen to be one, i.e. a Christian that actually follows the principles of Christ.
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“Generalizations do not help in debate.”.
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You really like that “Generalizations” smoke screen don’t you? Here’s an idea, why don’t you point out one of my “Generalizations?” Oh.., and by the way, smoke screens don’t help debates.
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“My post that you commented on did not say anything about taxes going to wars. My post did not say to fight against taxes to help the poor. I said taxation does not make you a better Christian.”
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No.., your post did not say anything about taxes going to wars. Mine did! Nowhere did I imply you stated such. You did however, refer to taxes as a TAKING away from you to do something, and you WERE referring to those taxes in the context of HEALTHCARE! And finally, my response was WHY, so called, Christians have an issue with taxes going into HEALTHCARE, and we don’t hear from them when the taxes are used to hurt people, such as, in wars (military), punishment systems (Judicial Branch), and control systems (Policing)? If you are going to make an argument against taxes, should you not argue against ALL taxes? How do you know that TAXATION, and how you advocate how they are spent, doesn’t make you a better Christian? Do you honestly believe, and are you telling me, that God does not want people to make efforts with our system of Government to improve the lives of his children?
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“Please cite exactly what I have posted that is relevant to your comments. You didn’t in this post. You just generalized and derided.”
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UM.., taxes, Christianity, healthcare, TAKING from others, need I go on? Ah, the Generalization card again, and it’s interesting how you use it because it always seems to be applied as a “Generalization” itself.
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“If you copy and show me exactly where I said anything about not fighting against taxation for wars for one example – please do so. Till then it is you who is putting up the smokescreen.”
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I haven’t heard anything about you and taxes for wars, nor did I imply you had. That was solely my perspective. Once again however, I did make the connection between Christians, taxes, healthcare, and their failure to advocate against things that harm people. If I alluded to you in that connection, then you could only see it from the polarization of your anti-tax-funded-healthcare position which you SHOW adamance about, and conversely NO OPPOSITION to taxes for other things.
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“However – I will not comment on your honor, intent or integrity. As I don’t know you, I cannot presume on any of that. Just take on faith that you are a well-meaning person who perhaps made comments on the wrong thread of posts.”
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You made repeated comments about honor, intent, and integrity when you made multiple statements to me and others that imply that we are not on topic with your posts, and that we are generalizing. You know people by what comes out of their mouths. I don’t care for your condescending implication that I don’t know how to post comments on threads. But I do expect this attitude from you because arrogance and conceit is the consistent affliction that seems to plague the majority of, so called, Christians.
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“I think I see what you were looking at. But I think you are reading it incorrectly I said I do not see anywhere in the bible that Jesus said to TAKE from others in order to do good. Where am I wrong in that?”
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I have no idea where you are wrong in that, nor did I implied it, but you ARE making a case against taxes for healthcare, and NOT how they are spent otherwise.
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“Jesus says to render under Caesar… pay taxes. He doesn’t say that paying taxes makes you a better person. He says to follow the law of the land. He doesn’t even say that taxes even do good. He doesn’t say taxes are good or bad – he exhorts people to take care of each other. He doesn’t say Caesar should tax more either.
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He does not say to follow the law of the land anywhere in the Bible, and the Cesar/God distinction never had anything to do with Government and God. It refers to, those with ears to hear, the distinction between recognizing spiritual existence and physical existence. The distinction between the source being you see when you look into someone elses eyes, and the material universe you see the being housed within. This classic mis-understanding of this Biblical verse is the common ignorant puke that pseudo-Christians have been regurgitating far too long, and was put into practice by Constantine and others who gutted the original manuscripts of the schools of higher thought for the purpose of obtaining public compliance with their will and organized crime protection money, commonly called TAX!
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“And many of your comments prove my point. You would rather your portion of taxes not go to a war. So why can’t you as a citizen make sure your money doesn’t go there? Would be easy to do. You have a form that you fill out and when your income tax is determined, you get to place your tax dollars where you think will do the most good.”
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OK.., were on the w4 do you indicate that you want NONE of your tax money to go toward military spending, policing, to pay judges salaries and courts costs, roads, in short everything taxes are used for? Were or what form do we fill out that allows us to decide these things? Are you from this planet?
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“Infrastructure (roads, bridges, etc ) schools and things like that should be paid for by everyone so there could be a designated portion of your income assigned automatically to begin with.”
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Why should those things be paid for by everyone? What do you mean to assign a portion of my income to those things? How do you do that? I’m all ears…
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“Saying that people who are against the healthcare plan don’t want to help people is not true. feeling that something is being implemented poorly etc and having an opinion against it is not evil or wrong.”
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It IS true if they don’t speak up when it’s time for war, and they do speak up when it’s time for healthcare SIR! And what facts do you have that something is implemented poorly in this healthcare bill? With all of the options on the table, the best ones have been implemented in the bill. That’s how it works! You put the best of everything into it, and leave out the worst. That has been made clear by the Obama administration over, and over, and over again with perfect clarity. However, I must admit, that I am very disappointed in the abortion parts. I am pro-life, and abortion should only be paid for in cases were the Mother’s life is in jeopardy. Not Rape or Incest, because the baby did not rape or commit incest against the mother, so why would an innocent child have to pay for someone elses actions? This is off topic, and I apologize for it. This abortion issue has always grinded my gears because I can’t stand how ignorant Republicans are on this issue and their failure to protect the unborn. It’s a scientific fact that LIFE starts at conception, not a religious fact like what the Republicans have leaned on. Science knows damn well that not one person on this planet started their LIFE (i.e. physical existence) at any point after conception, and the human body is the LIFE protected by the constitution. Abortion is CLEARLY Unconstitutional except were the Mother’s life is in danger!
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“I bet if one were given chance to say X amount of dollars was to go to my local community towards a healthcare program for those who do not have insurance or cannot be insured – that no one would need a Federal health insurance plan. Each community within a state could piggyback on each other and help cover the entire state – covering those that need it.”
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There is one little problem with this theory.., it has already been in implemented practice for very long time , and the results are unquestionably POOR, and it’s getting WORSE! Where was all the generosity of the rich for all the people who died and suffered all these centuries up to now? Humankind is realizing that they can never rely on the honor and generosity of the rich to do the right thing, hence Governments are instituted to help the people meet their needs, and ALL needs should be met for everyone. Needs as defined as the qualities of life that provide life for the human. Businesses would have no profit without those humans.
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The basic needs of every human is food, air, water, shelter, clothing, healthcare, education, and impressions to feed the consciousness. These things have been summarily reduced and cheated from the people in order to increase the profit margins of the wealthy. Writing themselves a larger paycheck every year at the people’s expense. Greed is a CALCULATED INDIRECT THEFT through coercion by taking advantage of people’s insecurities, fears, and generosity. The people have been generous to businesses for a long time, and now balance must take place, otherwise decay and collapse of trust in the affairs of business will ensue until a dynamo affect is achieved and rebellion against Government becomes commonplace. All you have to do is look at other Governments in the world that have allowed greed to rape it’s citizens, and you will see this happen. Indeed, greed is the breeding fuel of terrorism.

…I suspect fame and fortune simply went to Beck’s head. Something had to fill the void. I admire the swampwomen’s modesty here. Being media starlets does NOT distract from the quality of their work.

…nuns and rulers and leather?

Why is it all rhetorically go back to Marx as if he started all these bad, evil things like “social justice”? There were socialists and communitarians around long before the Communist Manifesto (1848). And many of these well-meaning-care-for-my-brother groups grew directly out of their “social justice” readings of the Bible. Historically challenged pundits today (damn that socialist American public school system) assume Marx started all this, but here’s what Marx really thought about Church-ey Social Justice as practiced in his day: “Christian Socialism is but the holy water with which the priest consecrates the heart-burnings of the aristocrat.” Meaning cynically that Social Justice is just a cover for deeper and far worse abuses against humanity. So, here it all comes around, look earnestly into the camera, walk forward away from the chalkboard, look emotional, don’t smear the makeup or maybe they won’t buy seeds, and say proudly and honestly to the American people: I AGREE WITH KARL MARX, I AM A TRUE COMMIE LEFTIST, NOT SOME PANTY-WAIST SOCIALIST. SEE ME FOR WHO I REALLY AM, A MIXED UP WINDBAG WHO HASN’T A CLUE.

freeinpa

Are you kidding me? The Republicans, and more specifically, the Bush Admin, Demonized Dems and Peacemakers, while raising the biggest victim cry ever in the country, 911!

Frankly, all this rhetorical nonsense and loud bombast on Fox and MSNBC and anger about taxes and rants about evil immigrants do nothing but drive me further away from the Becks and Olbermann and Dobbs and other non-problem solvers, folks who Christ would identify as synonymous with the Pharisees–the ideologically driven rationalizers protecting their own interests and bank acounts. As for me, all this serves to drive me TO religion as a valid but not easy solution–ironically, TO the same LDS Church that Beck espouses, but when I read the Book of Mormon, I get a very different picture of religion and the “social justice” I am demanded to perform:
“And also, ye yourselves [are supposed to] succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish. Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just— But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God. For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind? [Mosiah 4:16-19]

Social Justice, Mormon Style. The way I read it, I have a lot more “social justice” work ahead of me, to do what my God expects.

This is absolutely fascinating. I admit that I am purposefully adverse to getting distracted by on-line discussions, but this thread cuaght my attention so much I have read every single entry! It contains by far the highest percentage of civility and well-read fact-based political “dialogue” I have yet encountered in response to an online article. How do I find y’all when I have the (rare) time to join you?

To be sure, there are lame comments and clearly those who just wish for 15 seconds of fame and/or somewhere to repeat slogans they heard or vent frutrations due to feeling powerless in the face of manipulation by unseen hands moving the strings of celebrity marionettes. But I would say that the primary improvement that most poster here might do well to try to work on would be to remember that this medium is difficult to find just the right words in to get one’s points accross. Sloppy deliveries are easy to make, so immediately dissecting sentence constructions or meanings of words used by others more often distracts from construcitve dialogue and encourages emotional responses than would, say, positing meaning and asking for clarity, or even, (insert omnipotent being of choice) forbid, simply writing; “What did you mean by: XYZ” (followede maybe by: “because when I think of XYZ, I think ABC.”

Sorry, but I have no example to offer at this time, because this particular subject matter is not my forte. I read all the posts partly because I wanted to educate myself on the subject matter, and then becaiuse very few of them made me want to change the channel. I most especially found sechlander912 to be a fascinating study. I had to wonder along with the poster who suggested that sechlander912 was not what it claimed to be — I rather had to wonder if it was some kind of mobious agent provocateur . . .but I ended up hypothesiszing that faith has many times produced even stranger results in otherwise logical minds.

But I digress. Where do I find y’all on a given day?

(this post is for administrative purposes. If forgot to check “Notify me of follow-up comments via email” in my previous post.)

sechandler912,

What is agreed upon is that, when looking for experts in the field, government agencies far too often pick people who worked for or are going to go work for afterward, the industry in which they are regulating.

However, there was a great Frontline episode about the causes of the crisis and how there was a 1997 whistle blower who was ignored when it came to regulating derivatives.

Besides the hard to avoid problem of having the fox watching the hen house – which could have been done better, also, by the Clinton Administration – a tell tale sign that we are heading in the wrong direction is when these agencies begin to advocate deregulation. This is a conservative philosophy. It is a belief that, although unregulated markets have, in the past, caused financial catastrophes, they have become good little boys and girls and, now, will behave nicely.

Tea party anti-government rhetoric actually leads towards, instead of putting the fox in charge of the hen house, smashing down the hen house and just letting the foxes have an all-you-can-eat buffet.

In that hen house metaphor, WE ARE THE HENS! Please do not advocate deregulation because that is OUR HOUSE to keep out foxes.

welcome! drop by often. we’re at time.com/swampland.

On another issue, a conservative gave me a great compliment by saying that he respected how passionately I defended health care reform and it was too bad that I was not a conservative.

You know, if it weren’t for my integrity, I know that, with enough effort, I could take every argument of what I really believe in, say the exact opposite and make tens of millions of dollars for it. Better yet, if I were a professional conservative commentator, I wouldn’t always have to make sense.

Unfortunately I would last about a week before my integrity would stop me from being a mouthpiece for defending or promoting castrated government regulations and corporate greed. So, I guess I’ll have to just stick to speaking my mind and working my day job.

Well spoken and clear thinking progressives are a dime a dozen. No money in that.

Damn!

I am glad to see you make the point that we need to move beyond Beck and focus instead on the corruption in government despite affilliation, but why did you at the same time choose to send folks to Beck’s writings on the subject? Why did you not merely offer your own thoughts on the matter? When I read your post, I felt like you were asking folks to calm down and simultaneously suggesting that they go alone into a room with a stimulus you know to make that extrememly difficult for them to do. Why not suggest tyring to calm down in a more likely situation to facilitate such calm?

patricksartor~

Might you BE a conservative? What do you suppose that “conservative” wished you would be (in meaning, not in term)? I consider myself more of a true conservative than most of those who affix themselves with that lable — they seem like Radicals to me.

patricksartor~

Might you BE a conservative? What do you suppose that “conservative” wished you would be (in meaning, not in term)? I consider myself more of a true conservative than most of those who affix themselves with that label — they often seem like Radicals to me.

sechandler912,

Where to start with you is hard to decide.

Going chronologically from last to first: Clinton a centrist/progressive (not too liberal/progressive) had economists wondering for the first time since the creation of the modern banking system what the country would be like without any treasury bonds since, if we continued on that trajectory, we would have no debt at all. Progressives rallied against Bush tax cuts opening the window for deficit spending and, on moral grounds more than economic ones, against the extra and unnecessary and, due to it being unnecessary, morally repulsive war against Iraq. (It’s not Hussein, a former US puppet, it’s the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians who were between Hussein and the US who are now dead which is what makes it morally reprehensible. If Hussein was a civilian and could be picked up in a police car and brought to trial, of course I would have LOVED seeing him prosecuted).

Second, if you know Keynesian Economics and the History of the Great Depression, then you know that we have two choices: increase spending to stimulate the economy or see our economy shrink and shrivel to the point we become a third world country.

The deficit is a problem since we may loose the highest bond rating since the chances of our defaulting on our debt will go from, basically, 0% to, possibly 0.01%. When this happens, we will have to pay a higher interest rate out called by economists a “risk premium”. We don’t want this.

So, at some point in the not-so-distant future, the debt must be paid.

So, so long as you understand Keynes, realize the need for spending.

Hence spending plus paying off the deficit equals a large tax increase on the people with high incomes far, far above what this administration is proposing.

Also using Keynes, you will know that the money multiplier is much higher for the poor than for the wealthy. So, sending out money for jobs for the poor has a huge impact while their is a small negative impact on decreased spending by taxing the wealthiest.

So, if you know all about economics and want to, also, pay off the debt, then you are saying tax, tax, tax, tax, tax, tax and more tax on the wealthy.

Okay.

That puts you politically to my left and the complete OPPOSITE of the Tea Party movement.

I think the debt is a secondary priority and can be paid off more gradually after we get out of this recession with small increases on taxes on the wealthy.

Please don’t say that you both know about Keynesian Economics and are, also, a Tea Partier.

That would be like saying you are Mormon, Jewish and Catholic at the same time.

I struggle a lot with trying to understand why anyone, especially self-proclaimed “conservatives” would object to reforming a system of health care cost paying dominated by private insurers with government-granted preferential exemptions to otherwise generally-accepted rules of regulated capitalism – a system that seeks to maximize profits by denying coverage after taking the money. The only thing i see in that that is conserved is the instituion of highway robbery.

Perhaps some opponent of health care reform will try to enlighten me? I am serious — I really don’t get it, because the only reasons I can think of are either complex psychosocial theories or else explanations that do not look pretty to me, and I would rather not have to believe that so many people are that ugly inside.

mycophile, a popular exercise here is defining what is liberal / conservative / moderate / centrist / tea party / etc. (maybe none of us here really fit our own labels, but I digress.) The swamp blog archives are huge although I use google (instead of search here) to find them with keywords. Here’s a classic “what is a conservative” dialogue – stuartzechman’s reply is a good one –
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/11/03/doug-hoffmans-race-to-lose/

Jesus healed the poor and sick. He would be for universal health care and social justice. That is what religion is all about, helping those in need, not just the worship of some god. Most folks who espouse their religousness, if there is such a word, are the same ones who would kick you when you are down, in my experience. Social justice is just man helping his fellow man and treating each other with the respect all people deserve, regardless of personal wealth, something the rant wing needs to learn.

BTW: Unions did not exist as legally recognized institutions in most cases during Woodrow Wilson’s administration. That was Franklin Roosevelt.

Woodrow Wilson broke up monopolies, banned child labor and created workman’s compensation insurance.

(OSHA, an extremely progressive idea to protect worker safety was created by – I just found this out yesterday – Richard Nixon.)

In the middle, between Wilson and Roosevelt, corporations had gotten anti-trust laws used to make most unions ILLEGAL by claiming that they were a monopoly.

The 180 degree turn around was a shock to the business world was not done by Wilson, but by Roosevelt.

Nobody I know says unions are always right in their decisions.

The right to unionize and together, like any democracy, to be right more often than be wrong for the mutual benefit and turning low paying jobs of short term workers into lifelong experts earning high wages by gaining extreme proficiency at their jobs I do strongly believe in as a right.

You, clearly, have some of your facts mixed up badly.

d_iva~

I will go read it and then come back, but in the meantime, I also meant to specifically ask what kind of perspective sartor thought he was being asked to have, regardless of what label it might be affixed with

I support the passage of what is left of health care reform on the basis that I do trust the American voter, congressmen and the president to observe that this health care lite I will pass will get some of the things we need done. After that, we can make sure the public option and so on are in.

Labels are interesting since in Economics “liberal theories” are about unregulated markets. However, this about liberating a force of the market. Like everybody else, that so-called “invisible hand” of the free markets has been around my throat economically choking me.

Hence, liberal would be about liberating people from things such as unnecessary laws forcing religion on people (mostly in the 19th century) and liberating people from a non-human force called the “free” market when it interferes with the greater good.

Wanting to make a good living in order to be a responsible husband and father in addition to having an interesting career is, as far as I am concerned, called heterosexuality.

I am openly heterosexual, but that does not make a conservative.

d_iva wrote: “Here’s a classic “what is a conservative” dialogue – stuartzechman’s reply is a good one –
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/11/03/doug-hoffmans-race-to-lose/”

I read it. Seemed dense (not as in dumb), mostly inciteful, yet, of course, needfully still only addressing limted corners.

One of the questions that remained for me was akin to the “historic range of conditions” argument in forest management — over what time frame shall we look (because it can safely be argued that the natural range of conditions for Chicago, for instance, heavily favors glaciation)?

In this case, what social and/or economic pictures are to be “conserved”? The one we have this very moment, last year, last decade, last century, last millenium, least planet . . .? The Bible was effectivley “cannonized” at least once (in the process shedding much of it), and the US Constituion was apparently constructed in such a manner that it can be re-interpreted at the whim of no more than 5 unaccountable persons. How can it even be imagined that there is any such thing as “conserving” any form of those documents from any time period?

I could go on to offer my own defintion of conservative, but perhaps this is not the place. How do these swampblogs work? Are such conversations best kept separated (as in, if I post in the thread yu sent me to, will others become aware of it and reply there?

…it’s probably best to reply “here and now” and not in past blogs; they tend to die quickly (this one is an exception). Or you can wait for a topic you think is appropriate; the wait likely won’t be long.

psartor~

thanks. interesting. see my 109.7?

I try to avoid using the shortcut labels, for the reasons we both have mentioned, and more. I suggest trying to avoid being baited by others trying to pin them on you as targets to spit at.

I grew up in John Birch Orange County, Ca, was a YAFer in a chapter that was spurned by the political hypocrisy of our advisory board (John Wayne, Bob Hope, Richard Nixon, etc.) to investigate emerging Libertarian thought (we got excommunicated when we added Repbublicans to the Democrats and Black Panthers we debated), bailed when the movemetn formed a political party, went staunchly apolitical for 20 years, registered Green to vote for Winona LaDuke because I knew her politics were that of inclusiion and I read that finally the disenfranchised (non-voting eligibel voters) were a super-majority, registered Dem to try to keep King George from assuming the throne, and now am registered Independent but am highly-selective aboiut when and what I vote for, and market to rich people to obtain coin-of-the-realm to subsidize all my efforts to bring high-qualtiy affordable staple nutrition to those of much less means. I do not fit into a box, thank you.

I don’t think my political beliefs have changed much over all that time; but whom I thought might best manifest them certainly has. Still a leopard, but not always wearing the same leotard,

Ok, time to comment that Amy’s headline sure was effective in getting a bunch of folks dialoguing in one place, eh? Too bad some initial posters missed a chance to say to those that objected to it “Yeah, you’re right, it was at least an exaggeration if not a cheap trick, but now that we’re in the same room talking, forget about headline, ’cause I’m not Amy and she’s not here so what do you think about disparity between economic and social status in America, anyway, no matter what terms anyone tries to call it by?”

I see the sun is about to rise here in Oregon and I have biz calls to make. Thanks for keeping me up all night. Looks like it’ll hit 400 easy?

“See Photos of a Day in the Life of Glenn Beck”

He spun the news today, oh boy.

What news?

And why is it that the only people of color I can see in any of the pictures are security guards?

“…probably more like envy.”
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sacredh envy? That’ll keep the therapists busy.

As an Aussie/American (US Born and now living in FL) I can say with honesty that we have a better lifestyle in Australia because we are free and treated fairly.

Australia has made the top places in the world to live and recently made it to #1 based on quality of life for everyone, especially the middle class.

They have currently some of the lowest unemployment rates right now (despite an excellent unemployment benefit and even welfare zomg!) following a model that Obama should have followed instead of being center-right. (he’s not a lefty guys and to the RW PLEASE tell me what “freedoms” Obama has taken away that you can see every day??)

I would happily go back to live there if my mother didn’t beg me to stay because of her age. She however knows that Australia is a more just nation that the US.

Even odder – my RW family in Australia, who are very wealthy (multi-multi-millionaire wealthy) think the US is nuts for not providing the basic right to receive health-care. When they come to visit they are afraid of US health system making them broke if they had any kind of accident.

In Australia they have “private care” because they can afford to buy it. What that means is when in hospital they would not have to share a room and the rooms are 5 star hotel style as is the food. THE CARE tho is the same.

anon76: I didn’t log on when I got home from work last night and was surprised that the total was this high (391@ 09:41). I’m a little confused. Buy everyone a coke and you have your thumb on the scales? I snorted with laughter. There’s nothing like a good pun. We might have hit 500 if this thread wasn’t heading toward the “older posts” graveyard.

Why G. Beck hates Jesus? The answer is so simple. He is on the darkside. He works within the forces of darkness. Evil moves away from the Light.

Beck is all evil, and hates the Light. He is on the darkside.

A Day in the Life- The Beatles
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He spun the news today, oh boy. A play on “I read the news today, oh boy”-lyrics
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You only saw people of color as security guards in the Beck photos because he’s not exactly a member of the Rainbow coalition.
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I read a few of your comments. Welcome to Swampland mycophile. I hope you stick around. We almost always comment about the thread topic and then take the discussion someplace else. Sometimes related, sometimes not.

Beck’s darkside doesn’t even have cookies. We have cookies on my darkside.

When lovely Amy rips and tears into that filet mignon she can think of us.

“…nuns and rulers and leather?”
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Oh my!

“When lovely Amy rips and tears into that filet mignon she can think of us.”
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I admire your ability to keep it clean. I was thinking popsicle.

I had recognized the lyrical reference

I used it to word-play comment that although what Beck may have said sparked a lively discussion, the content/tone/message was hardly new.

Getting rather old, as a matter of fact.

Congrats, Amy! 400!

How do you folks post and amass wealth at the same time? I’m getting too distracted and will probably have to quit opening these Swampland post-notification emails this morning!

…that’s a really good one, sacred. Eating a strawberry or a cherry (and then tying the stem with the tongue) would work too.

There are only a few dozen regulars on here. We do go over the same topics over and over. If you stick around you’ll find that you often get far more information from the regulars than from the information in the articles. We also hijack threads far more than we should. I might be the worst offender in that category.

How do you folks post and amass wealth at the same time?

I work shifts for Uncle Sam so I post mostly before I go to work. Some people post from work. I can’t because our computers are monitored. It does keep us off the streets though.

sechandler912

I do not believe I called you any names. If I did, I apologize.

My beef with you is that you defend beck. I never did say you claimed that he is perfect. In fact, in some postings yesterday, I applauded the guy for giving up his drinking and drugs.

I will not forgive a guy, much less listen to him, if he makes fun of a woman who has had a miscarriage. There is something seriously wrong with the guy if he has done something like this (and if you do a search, you will find that he has done this). He has something seriously wrong with his soul, with his psyche. I knew this before I found out about beck calling that woman to harrass her about her psyche. He has joked on national cable and radio about killing people. He has said that he hates some 9-11 victims and has called some Katrina victims “scumbags.” Don’t you listen?

Am I worried about the budget deficit? Yes. But I am not going to listen to a maniac like beck to tell me about it.

sacred 118.6~

I’ll have to watch myself on that one, too.

words R US

Oops…I mistyped.

There is something seriously wrong with beck if he called that woman to harrass her about her miscarriage, not “psyche.”

“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross” – S. Lewis

sechandler912~

I have to agree that it is VERY difficult to listen to give credence to anyone who would do such a thing as is described having been done to a woman who just had a miscarriage. PERIOD. It amazes me so much that you would look beyond that and believe in the integrity of any opinions such a person would give with a claim to be in everyone’s best interest, that I would have to assume that you are not female?

411 , information

Amy thank you for posting a topic that generated so many thoughtful comments. Unlike the last couple of swarms on Swampland, this one wasn’t generated by Drudge or other freepers stirring the hive. It was posted and linked on the Huffington Post.

Axollot,

You mean that we CAN’T deport Rupert Murdoch!
He does not have a freakishly right wing home land to be deported to!

FK! We have to keep him here?

Well, if you spent half of your life hear, you know that starting with Ronald Reagan, Americans love to hear the overly simplified version of life where the rich are the good guys and the poor are the bad guys.

Fox “News” and other radio stations make such a fortune telling this fairy tale that it ends up twisting otherwise intelligent people into voting for complete morons.

We may see victory against the NeoCons, but, we need some big Obama victories first.

I have no doubt that Obama by world standards is a conservative or, at best centrist.

Our country is stuck believing in fairy tails.

Did you know that GWB actually had the secret service step away from the chimney on Christmas because he still believes in Santa?

(Okay, I made that up, but, it is almost that bad.)

This thread was so civil that I was tempted to troll it myself.

Ok, here’s my last one, and I’m deleting Swampland. I don’t hear voices that truly want to understand. For those coherent respectful voices out there, I have tried to offer you something to tell you about reasonable, God-loving, people loving people out in the USA that appreciate his voice. The polls and ratings show you that this is so, unless you relegate people you don’t understand to ignoramuses, which apparently most of you do. This burdens my soul, because I try not to do that–my mom taught me better.

Yes, I AM a woman, a therapist, a Mormon, a mother of 10. I know pain, know people in pain, and work with people in pain for a living. I work in soup kitchens, I donate monthly to the poor and needy on top of 10% of my income to my church which helps the poor and the needy as well as tries to encourage responsibility and love amongst its members. I donate to humanitarian efforts. My 912 group members go to Haiti to help on their on dime. These are people who are good, solid citizens. They love IN THE TRENCHES, not magically through the blogosphere.

And I get inspired on a regular basis from Glenn Beck. Not from incidents like what you’re talking about–I’ve never heard him do that, and IF he did, he did it in one of his addictive, ADD moments, which is why he’ll probably never be my bishop at church. What I DO hear, regularly and consistently, is his honest apologies when he’s whacked, his sincere effort to educate himself, and his attempt to appeal to the gut in each of us that says, “help, but not too much.” “Give but do it responsibly.” “Love, but wisely and honesty.” “Root out corruption.” Those of you that hear sound bites will not get that because they’re surgically selected. He’s not my leader. I loathe Rush Limbaugh. But Beck speaks truth on alot of issues. And if you want to dismiss someone for doing a FEW things wrong, then that isn’t very Jesus-like of any of you. And then you’d have to throw out Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, and our beloved President too. And we’re left with no one.

I hear all of you prattling around, spouting your beliefs, and I hear almost no one wanting the truth. It’s a bummer. I spend my life trying to gather truth wherever I find it. These problems are messy. If millions of people hold to one side of an issue, there’s likely truth in what they say… The WHOLE truth? No, probably not. Is Glenn Beck a perfect representation of my beliefs. Not even close. But I have to sift — through any of what you all say. Keynes appears to be off. FDR was off – the SS system he designed, while a nice idea, is off and will continue to contribute to our economic downfall. It is NOT SUSTAINABLE, and none of you will listen, and I don’t get that.

The therapist’s point of view: this discussion is like dealing with a codependent family: “She’s our daughter, we have to help her.” Yes, yes, it’s ok to help her, the question is how and what works… Sometimes help is in the trenches, like when the daughter is under 18. Like if she’s having SOME problems, and is open to the help. But only WISE parents are open to the truth that you need to give her what she truly needs, and what all adults need is the ability to be self-sustaining wherever possible. And a really stuck grown child may need to just be left alone, which parents who love too much have a really hard time seeing. That is my truth. And Glenn Beck speaks to that. STop trusting government to solve your problems, believe in yourselves again, there’s no cavalry coming to rescue you. Look inside, look to God, your family for your help, get in your seatbelt, and figure out how to drive your own car. Don’t hear that on CNN, MSNBC or the NYT. I hear about RIGHTS TO HAVE, not responsibilities to be and do for ourselves first, our family next, our communities next, and then our nation. Until the both sides get this you’ll all be spinning your wheels and you’ll start losing elections and have no idea why. Middle America gets this. Bye folks and good luck with all the wheel spinning.

Why does Beck hate Jesus?

The answer is obvious. He’s paid to do it. Beck is paid to be a prophet for a new religion whose goal is to replace Christianity. This is the religion of Murdochian Gold Worship.

For the Murdochians, the teachings of Jesus must be dispensed with as they call for caring and helping of the poor, the sick, the homeless, the dispossessed. This requires gold and they believe gold should be reserved only for them. The teachings of Jesus are a political and economic inconvenience for the Murdochian vision of a New World Order that believes in amassing wealth and political power for the Clan of Murdoch above all else. Distortion and the bearing of false witness are just a few of the tools in their arsenal.

Beck is only useful to prepare the masses for the new Fox News Corporation mediaspeak for the selling of the last vestiges of America they do not already own, namely the dismantling of social security and medicare so that the Murdochians can avoid higher taxes and create economic conditions that keep wages low and all vulnerable to their relentless greed and their C-Street/Wall Street Moral Code.

They have humbled the US Government by corrupting the minds of its citizens with lies, wars, distortions, and hate, which they subsidize through their vast network of New Corporation franchises, political parties, private armies, secretive manipulation of the gold markets, and other monopoly businesses.

The only obstacle now in their way to the public emergence of their previously secret C-Street Morality code are the Teachings of Jesus and the pushing aside those Church Groups that do not adhere to their new political and religious philosophy. It is not a coincidence that “compassionate conservatism” is dead.

Beck is simply a Murdochian tool to turn away those who might waste their money on collection plates for the poor and to channel such monies toward a future of homage to Murdochian Gold Worship.

The only real question is how many Christian souls will the Murdochians be able to turn to their new religion. Their own polls give them hope, as support for Beck is running at 79% of the republican and tea party electorates, whose upper echelons are Murdochians. They only need a few more to insure Murdochian Party victories in November and after that they shall control the government and institute their well-laid plans to end Christianity.

Good points, mylittlenoopy.

Reagan in fact had a tax increase which was the largest in our history at the time.

Also, during WWII, taxes on the wealthiest were above 90%.

I looked at Forbes’ list of billionaires last week. A number of those on the list were not from the U.S. and in fact were from socialist countries.

I get it, lancer333. I know these guys aren’t truly religious people.

Some call them idiots, but they are not. They are smart to the extent that they do use religion, at least some of them do, to exploit people’s fears and then rake in millions and millions.

I do not begrudge wealth, but I do begrudge the methods these people use to make their wealth.

“Social justice IS teaching a man to fish, and these so called conservatives are against that, too.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you soon collapse a fishery.

If only solving the world’s problems were so simple.

No wonder the Murdochian approach is so appealing. Environmental doom is inevitable. Why feed the hungry when they will only be hungry again tomorrow?

Its just a lot simpler to send a check to the Murdochian Goldworshipers than waste it on a collection plate for the poor and needy. Murdochians need the money more than the poor. After all the poor are used to going without money, whereas the Murdochians won’t be content or satisfied until they have it all.

OK, so now I have to say that i wish I had not hit the “submit” button before realizing that I had not constructed my last sentence as I had originally thought it (got distracted by something else and had not gotten sleep from being fascinated by this thread.)

Looks like I may have pushed sechandler912 over the edge, in a fashion contrary to my beseachment of others to try to conduct themselves differently in pursuit of constructive dialogue.. I meant to ask her if Beck had ever apologized for his miscarriage, and if she had ever had one.

She has made good points about the entire political spectrum being stuffed full of feces and our country being on a downhill slide into bad places — but I would like to have seen her make the same criticism of Beck, for I find his proposed solutions to not be.

I don’t think it requires listening to his style of presentation in order to “get” that we are in deep doo-doo and that our politicians are not inclined to change that becuase they are bought and sold by huge monieed interests. Has Beck ever criticized those hands that feed him?

I submit that if sechandler912 finds Beck so vital to inform her of the mess we are in, and no one else will seem to do for her in that role, then something is wrong. It does not take a genious to see the evidence all around us. It is just simply not true that Beck is the only one to be pointing it out. Maybe the problem is that sech only trusts mainstream, US-based, news sources?

I suspect that even more people shop at Walmart and eat at MacDonalds than listen to Beck, but that does not mean that Walmart and MacDonalds are healthy choices for either them or our society or sustainable economics. Nor does it mean that they have pearls for everyone.

I’ sorry sechandler912 feels that way. I am glad she loathes limbaugh; I loathe beck. It should be pointed out that I have seen a number of limbaugh fans speak of him the way people speak of beck…..that limbaugh “speaks the truth.”

I agree with everything mycophile has said in the last post. I know there are serious problems in this country, but I don’t need someone like beck to tell me so. The means does not justify the ends.

Not that it really matters, but I am a male who finds beck’s actions with that miscarriage situation totally abhorrent. Maybe he was doing drugs in those days, but beck apparently is off drugs and alcohol nowadays….yet he still “jokes” about killing people…..he made that comment about putting poison in Nancy Pelosi’s wine last summer. I saw him do so…..not off of some blog, but from his actual program.

Oops….mistyped once again. Meant to say that the “end does not justify the means.”

to that I will add that mean means do not justify just ends

(hmmm . . .it sounded clever when i first thought of it . . , better get back to the the nearly invisible world of mycellium, where ends have no meaning)

“Why Does Glenn Beck Hate Jesus?”

Jesus has a bigger following and the little sh!t is jealous?

“Why Does Glenn Beck Hate Jesus?”

Jesus sits on a throne in Heaven and the only throne Beck sits on has to be flushed?

Have fun folks. Off to work.

Beck is religious and believes in God. Hannity does to a little bit. but rush never talks in platitudes like that. rush may believe in God but he never talks about it. I like all three of them even though they have completely different views.

I hate idits

I love when my reasons for not reading TIME
anymore are justified.

Gold worship? are you calling glenn beck the mormon a gold worshiper… is that because of them golden plates or because of that statue on top of them churches… you have got to be kidding. Mormons care about money.. but what make mormons interesting is that they are willing to give up everthing material for their beliefs… They could have been rich as Sam brannon (and early mormon in califonia that tried to persuade Brigham young and the rest of the mormons to move to california and obtain all the gold before the rush started)… The were willing to give up all their possession and move to the desolate great basin. so to say that Glenn becks religion is about obtaining riches I don’t believe.. I think riches can come to those who sacrifice and live right but this can raise ire in others. especially those on the left that apparently want to believe that all riches obtained must have been done the madoff way. Basically people hate what they do not understand. and they hate people that are different. If you want to call Becks religion not christian then that is fine.. you can define his religion any way you want.

you’re all crazy…..beck’s a moron but so is everyone that believes in jesus…everyone…….
all of you…haha

WHERE is the articles about nancy pelosi calling people that disagree with her and obamas policies…nazis……
where are the articles exposing this administration that yells at the people who have any opinion disagreeing with this administrations and the consistent lieing and deceit, the czars, the reputations of all the people obama surrounds himself with and their past associations and beliefs,……..
No wonder all the newspaper and magazines sales are going into backruptcy losses…..it is not the economy….
IT IS THE LACK OF OBJECTIVE UNBIASED REPORTING ON THIS ADMINISTRATION….AND THE UNBELIEVEABLE DISREGARD FOR THE TRUTH AND EXPOSING THIS ADMINISTRATION LIKE YOU ARE AFRAID OF THE TRUTH AND THIS PRESIDENT….

I will be canceling my issues of time magazine…..
I can get this kind of inobjective news on t.v…..that is why me and everyone is making fox news ratings go off the chart while everyone elses rating are dropping….

that is a direct reflection of what the people think about this administration and how we will only listen to the truth…not this free promotions for obama….
in every other article…

very disappointed in time magazine to say the least

it used to be a really good magazine…

sechandler912 is not a debater.

Basically, it seems as if since she didn’t call us names and would have gladly invited us over to her house for milk and cookies that meant that we should suddenly agree with her.

She gave money to Haiti.

If you’ve got an extra $20 or more, how could you NOT give money to Haiti. That country just can’t get a break – corrupt government, crime, a pathetic economy, tropical storms and, just when you thought that it would be no news or good news, the poor guys got that earthquake.

I had no idea that there was a fault near Haiti!

So, she isn’t heartless, but listens to somebody who is.

patricksartor said:
“Only a kindergartner could put Nazis and Communists in the same boat.”
Nazi = (Nationalsozialismus), or National Socialism.
Communism = Authoritarian Socialism.
Both were Authoritarian and Nationalistic.
Both were Socialism.
Socialism (or social justice) is taking my $ and distributing to who they choose. Liberty says I help who I choose.
Seems the Beck haters like to name call. Reminds me of kindergarten.

Once again, this is a bunch of BS that could’ve been avoided had more time been spent RESEARCHING before they public COMPLETE and utter NONSENSE.

I listen to the show. I listened to the show the day they are referring to.

Like every other blog/article/etc., they ALWAYS cut out one bit of information and spread misinformation.

Also, to those of you morons who post stupid comments solely based off of these articles–STOP!

Look into these ludicrous comments.

I can’t believe that TIME is actually spreading crap. I thought there were actually standards that they try to live up to.

I support what Glenn Beck said COMPLETELY.

It’s funny how he’s labeled a religious fanatic one week and the next a Jesus hater.

Once again, this is a bunch of BS that could’ve been avoided had more time been spent RESEARCHING before they public COMPLETE and utter NONSENSE. I listen to the show. I listened to the show the day they are referring to. Like every other blog/article/etc., they ALWAYS cut out one bit of information and spread misinformation. Also, to those of you morons who post stupid comments solely based off of these articles–STOP! Look into these ludicrous comments. I can’t believe that TIME is actually spreading crap. I thought there were actually standards that they try to live up to. I support what Glenn Beck said COMPLETELY. It’s funny how he’s labeled a religious fanatic one week and the next a Jesus hater.

Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/14/why-does-glenn-beck-hate-jesus/#respond#ixzz0iHKU0tKd

Well, Mr. or Mrs. Christianshine.

There were articles and news broadcasts at the time Nancy Pelosi made that “nazi” remark.

Usually, people write opinions shortly after someone makes controversial or stupid remarks like beck did last week about religion and social justice.

Amy Sullivan’s writeup is an opinion. I don’t believe beck “hates Jesus,” but I also have my doubts about whether or not he is a religious man. I do strongly believe that much of what he does and says is in the name of capitalism…..that he wants to become rich ($23 million is what I have seen he made last year). I also strongly believe he is a hypocrite and a hate monger….and he does so in order to make more money. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that beck is off his rocker.

In spite of what you say about “free promotions for Obama,” there is plenty of reporting about how “bad” Obama is.

You people need to get a life and quit running away from the truth. Our whole system as we once knew it is going down the drain and not a one of you care a D. You don’t worry about tomorrow,future or for the out come of the next generations. All you worry about is hand outs from the government. The media should be reporting on the truth and facts not all the crap they feel like is revealing news like Massa. Reveal the facts on the government system and how it works to protect congress men and others and that should be news worthy. Bet you the new proposed health care system that they are trying to push down our thoarts, for the people is not the same as the health system for political people in congress. Congress will prevail with better out come than we will on this health care system. .How many people in congress and other poliitical areas have cheated the government on there taxes and the blue collar are dragged to court or the pay checks are deducted because they can’t pay taxes. People get real and wise up for if we don’t we want have a America anymore just a dictatorship.

This is the most ignorant issue! Anyone and I mean ANYONE who listens to Glenn Beck knows for FACT that Glenn Beck hating Jesus is the furthest thing from the truth. This twisting of peoples words all the time is getting so old.

>> blondy101: Glenn Beck is just an idit!! <<

Perhaps your screen name says it all, but in attempting to call Glenn Beck and "idiot," you misspelled the word "idit."

“gun-toting tax collectors”????

Do the tax collectors really carry guns? Wow.

If everything were left up to charity, many, many indigents would go without help. They probably would die.

I believe we need both charity and government support.

I do contract work. In the last few years, that work has really dried up. In spite of that, I still give a lot of money to charity. One of my favorite charities is Doctors Without Borders.

Yet I have no problem with the government also helping out.

Is there waste in government? Yes, there is…..fix it, but don’t condemn taxes entirely because there is a lot of good that is done. And, it’s not just “charity” that taxes support. Taxes support police and firemen. Taxes support the building and maintenance of our highways. I have read many an article about how other countries’ airports are far superior to ours. We are living on old and bad infrastructure.

I once lived in Europe, where taxes are far higher than they are here. In the 4 years I lived there, I thoroughly enjoyed it, and if it were not for family and friends, I might move back there. Not once in the 4 years I lived and worked there did I hear people complain about taxes or the health care system. Quite the opposite. I heard people really praise their system because the elderly are really well taken care of. I have two Dutch friends who needed serious medical attention, and they got it…..it saved their lives.

At one time, I made so much money that I was taxed at the highest rate….that of 39%. I could care less if my tax rate were 39% or 36%. When I was working in Europe, the tax rate on the most wealthy in The Netherlands was 52%. It used to be over 60%. Those who complain about going from 36 to 39% don’t know what they are talking about.

I forgot to add the following, Mr. or Mrs. Christiansshine.

The newspapers and magazines that have declared bankruptcy have not done so because of lack of objective reporting.

It is because of the internet.

Wow, one can’t get more ignorant than this. If you knew anything about this man you would realize how stupid your statements make you sound.

I would have said this earlier, but I think comments are slowing down to this opinion piece.

I do not know for sure, but those who are really criticizing Amy Sullivan have to consider this: there are some who think that beck is saying what he says in order to create controversy, in order to create ratings.
Perhaps Amy Sullivan’s remarks about beck were to inspire controversy. Does Amy Sullivan really believe that beck “hates Jesus?” I don’t know, but I strongly doubt it.

But Amy Sullivan’s question and opinion piece point out that beck is using religion to try to prove his points. Amy does not answer her question, but she has inspired or enraged many to respond to her piece.

So those who defend beck also should defend Amy for her question.

In spite of what I just said, beck is an “idit!” (sic)

If Nazism and Communism are so diametrically opposed, why do Goerbel’s papers speak sympathetically to Communist principles? This is more like the Students for a Democratric Society and Weathermen fighting for supremacy in the “leftwing wacko bowl”

Derek should go back to playing with his dominoes, or whatever he plays with. Derek is either stupid or he is a liar, the typical lefty who hates anybody with whom he disagrees, and calls them haters and dividers. I didn’t need Glenn Beck to teach me that the Nazi Party stood for National Socialist Party. Yep, Derek, SOCIALIST. Hitler, Stalin and Mao didn’t have a lick of difference between them, but for the fact that Hitler;s brand of SOCIALISM relied on a nationalist foundation, and the commies were internationalists. They all were murderers, and Hitler was the least among them.
And, when Derek cites the Declaration of Independence and the constitiution as some justification for advocating social justice, he proves he knows and understands neither Founding Document. Sure, we have inalienable rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Purveyors of Social Justice want to remove our liberty so they can force upon us their vision of equality of of situation rather than equality of opportunity.

While “idit” is not properly spelled, it’s properly meant. I like it.

“But wait! Who preached social justice, and in the process founded the world’s most prominent religion…”

According to the idiot that posted this Jesus should have raised an army of men & angels and destroyed the unjust. But instead he looked forward to a heavenly reward and preached charity WITH YOUR OWN MONEY. He didn’t try to buy people’s support with OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY while TAKING ACCOLADES as though they suffered.

Jesus also said, “the poor will always be with us”.

…then show us the facts, in detail + links. Much obliged.

I just turned on beck for a couple of minutes.

He talked about a woman who is currently 700 pounds and is trying to get to 1000 pounds.

Then he went into some rant about the current administration and the “hope and change” message it ran on.

I do not get beck’s point at all. That morbidly obese woman is obviously nuts. I have no idea what her political idealogies are, but how can that have anything to do with what beck is trying to say????

The guy is a loon. He’s nuts. How can anyone take what he says as being serious????

Derek,

Beck is wrong sometimes, but is not a vile cretin. The fact you think so only supports him by those hearing him.

He does not sow hatred, but he certainly sows division. He is opposed to those who use semantics to take that which we, as Americans, are entitled.

Fox News presents facts that make you uncomfortable. It is the top news organization in cable because it does not make most Americans uncomfortable. Feeding them pablum makes them uncomfortable. Fox News does not spew ignorance; that involves the lacking of knowledge. They provide knowledge to the American people, and Beck does so when he encourages those who will listen to learn history. THAT is not ignorance.

We Christians do not take on the platform that allows Beck to speak, because we believe that freedom of speech will allow the truth to be known. Those, such as you, that would oppose allowing someone to speak out, are the true threat to this country.

lreasonover,

Who did Hitler Kill: Jews and the Roma (also known as Gypsies) and hated blacks.
Rich Christian Germans were protected and made wealthier.

Who did Stalin kill: the rich or those who accepted any system which would allow their to be a middle or upper class.

If, in some bizarre twist, somebody wanted to be both a Nazi and a Stalinist, they would kill off ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY.

So, once again, for those of us who know that words have meaning and not just a cool sound to make with your mouth like scat singing in jazz (as “babidy bibbidy, boobidy bo!) would find even putting Nazis and Communists in the same sentence a sign of great historical ignorance.

Maybe Beck should begin scat talking.

He could say, “I hate Obama bibbidy ibbidy bah bah biddity. Bo bid. dib dah.”

I bet anybody who really likes his work would love those cool sounding meaningless sounds he would make.

Is 500 possible for Amy? It’s 450 now, wow.

Beck is not the only source of historical information. His critics say he lies. What Beck does that provides a service is that he provides documentary evidence of progressive, socialist statements or movements. He reads extensively and documents and presents that documentation in clearly explained segments.

I have been a teacher for many years. It is a talent to be able to condense material into a cohesive, clear principle with facts and examples. Beck does that.

This is why so many listen to Glenn Beck. We can all drop the name calling. If you disagree with Glenn, go to one of his topics and find contrary facts or point out in detail where his facts are incorrect. It is easy to criticize and cast aspersions at your rival, but if you cannot clearly point out his argument point for point, one’s comments does not add real value.

Those who listen to Beck may disagree on various points. I know I do. However, I find I have begun doing my own research to verify the validity of Beck’s instruction. If he accomplishes nothing more for me, he has been successful in my eyes.

Sorry, taksavillage.

I traded barbs with some conservative Texan a couple of years ago about the Iraq war. When I complained about bush’s unjust war in Iraq, she said that the bible said that “there will be war.”

People of this mindset are nuts.

apr, the Huff Post link is a great idea. Maybe other swamp reporters will do this often. Beats Drudge any day.

137

“I just turned on beck for a couple of minutes.”
How can you get the point of what he is saying if you only listen to him for a couple of minutes?
“but how can that have anything to do with what beck is trying to say????” I believe you would have to actually listen to someone to hear what they are trying to say…I’m just sayin…
”
The guy is a loon. He’s nuts. How can anyone take what he says as being serious????”
ummmm, again….some people actually listen to what he says, question what he says and research what he says, try it sometime, you MIGHT get it…ummm, naw, nevermind…

And, by the way, taksavillage.

It’s “Goebbels,” not “Goerbels” as you say….even though you do pronounce an “r” in his name.

I am curious why Russia fought with the Allies……Russian communists hated the German nazis at the time.

Marx’s ideas were twisted by the famous “Communists” into totalitarianism, “National Socialists” twisted Socialism into Fascism, “Americans” twisted Democracy and Capitalism into Favoritism to selected business sectors, companies, and entrepreneurs via un-even government regulation and tax incentives (makign a mockery of the concept of a “freee market”) . . . the list goes on. CIA agent provocateurs (Cointelpro, anyone?) and youths angry at their parents turned SDS from a nascent political party into disrespectful and sometimes violent protestors, and many blog posters turn opportuinites for educational discourse into spitting matches.

The latter is controllable, although turning the other cheek ( I am not religious) is difficult to always do fully well. C’mon, taksavillage — was it really neccessary to use the phrase “leftwing wacko bowl”? Is that any more productive than calling Beck a moron?

Goerbel’s papers?

I am far from an expert of Goerbels to know much more than, if he were speaking and the only other channel had Glenn Beck, I would turn it to Glenn Beck, but, I do believe he had some concept that they were the misguided and that he knew the truth. He may have had pity on them being “misguided”.

Please quote these passages giving a specific reference.

The Weathermen were pseudo-Marxist and, if I am not mistaken about thirty people high on drugs at the time.

Paul,

The schism reflected is older than Christianity itself. It is the attempt of those who believe they know best deciding what rights others may have.

Jesus’ talk of social justice was not to overthrow governments, but calls for individuals to give and do. Democrats call today for government to force others to give. There is no Christianity there to forcing others to give.

Socializing is decided by individuals. Socialism is decided by governments.

In short, he supported the individual deciding to show compassion and charity, not the government. He supported life, something that members of this government believe they have the right to take away. In short, he has much to do with today’s movement Conservatives.

Before anyone who is not a Latter day Saint states what Latter day Saints believe, they should first make sure what they say is true. Everything about the LDS church is done on a voluntary basis. If the rest of this country actually followed the principles behind the LDS welfare program, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. You take care of your own family, if somehow you can’t, then your extended family should help, if they can’t, then the church, if they can’t, then last and the least you should go to the government. But, that doesn’t happen here. “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” The Apostle Paul in 1st Timothy 5:8. Better yet, read the entire chapter. It’s very enlightening. Yes, we should want to help our fellow man, but to force you to is not the Lord’s way and it cannot be found in the scriptures.

taksavillage,

Nobody is talking about an avenging army.
You could pay higher taxes as they do in Western Europe for more government services than we get here, migrate away (as almost none of the wealthy in Europe have done) and, without the US to hide money, move to Mexico or other third world countries where for, basically, no taxes you get, basically, no government.

Your tax forms would, at worst lead you to pay higher amounts.

This is not like “avenging angels”.

It is like somebody who has a bad dad who can’t or won’t pay the bills getting a great high school education, going to the doctor when he is ill or, at the “extreme left” having very low bills on a student loan that would pay for all of his educational costs when he goes onto college.

He may well have done that, and much worse. He was an addict and alcoholic. It takes nothing away from the truth of his statements.

noparty~

If YOU listen to Beck long enough to “get” him, how about you do me a favor and do so now and then get back here and report what he is trying to say that denjudge didn’t hear? I’d do it but I’m too busy trying to work in what feels like a stacked-deck economic system. How about a little charity for a guy who is a little short on time capital?

Try to ignore any feeling of sarcasm here, ’cause I seriousy would like to hear the differnce between denjudge’s quick read and your long one.

It has been understood for eons that the things we fear are the things we do not understand or show in ourselves that which we hate. As I read some of these comments, I see that there are many who don’t even know who Glenn Beck is or what he stands for. To name call only shows the ignorance and that the only thing factual about your diatribe is the emotion. It is clear when ones position is founded on emotion rather then fact; and the more and severe the namecalling…..you be the judge. I do not see Glenn use invectives any where near as badly as Keith Olbermann or Ariana Huffington…. not a fact between them. Their truth twisted into some Machivellian, Edward Munch nightmare of Biblical proportions (makes me want to scream). One need only go as far as California to see the result of a half-century of uber-liberal socialist- hey there’s plenty for everyone and ya don’t even have to work that long before you are vested and can have 100% of your healthcare covered for the rest of your life. See the handwriting on the wall…..no…..well Glenn does.

Beck isn’t well suited for the Brits. We have American exceptionalism, not European social policy.

Why does Glenn Beck hate Jesus? I dunno. I don’t believe that he does.

Why does Amy Sullivan hate the Ten Commandments?

“#9: You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.”

Either Ms. Sullivan is quite naive and did not understand Mr. Beck’s comments in context or she is fully aware of his meaning and is intentionally distorting his words to purposefully create controversy. You decide which it is.

Beck’s new campaign is ridiculous. Faith, Hope and Charity are the answers. There is no god, none of the sky gods are real, Beck’s religion was created by a grifter in the early 1900s who made it up he found gold tablets in the ground that were the word of god but no one could see them except him. Okay then. So it’s false hope based on false religions, and charity no one is going to do. Young people are fighting for free health care, they want to take Medicare from old people and get the free stuff for themselves, the Tea Party people don’t want socialism, but they live on Social Security and free medical, Medicare, and say they are “entitled” to it. Their spouse paid 10 grand into it, they want 1,200 a month each for 30 plus years, free surgeries, free prescription drugs, but those evil socialists Beck tells them to hate, yeah that’s the answer.

Last week Beck said it is just fine for him to become obese, how dare Michelle Obama work to deal with the childhood obesity epidemic. Those damned commies are trying to control him. He said he is rich, yeah, off the books his poor religious, uneducated followers buy from him, so he will pay the fire department to take him out of his house when he gets sick from being obese. So, Bill O’Reilly asked Beck, is it okay for people on government health care to be obese? Beck said no, they can’t be obese because the taxpayers pay for their medical care. Okay, so those evil commies are telling us all what to do, but Beck is telling us who can and cannot be obese. He was eating banned hydrogenated oil and bragging about how great it is. Okay then. He thinks teaching our children to take care of the Earth is communist indoctrination, tells people they are not entitled to an education, says his grandfather didn’t have one in the early 1900s, so people don’t need an education in 2010, and, after all, the colleges are teaching socialism, education is evil. He blames atheists for the ills of the world, but now excludes Christians too if their churches teach social justice. Yeah, when they get rid of welfare, all these charitable people will give their money to poor people. He has uneducated people brainwashed that unions are evil. Many cities in this country are full blown welfare towns because there are no living wage jobs, no unions. Corporate welfare is much more the problem than unions. Beck is pitting the middle-class against the poor and religious people against non-religious people. He is not taking any of the ideas from the other side and debating them, the pros and cons, he’s not willing to accept one idea Obama has. Enough is enough. Palin quit her job serving the people to make millions on a book, her husband quit his job, she is now doing a TV show and another book, and had her daughter petition for 1,750 a month in child support from Levy Johnston same week she sold 5 million books. The Tea Party people don’t see what she really is.

js112,

And I should not have to move to accomodate your desire to set up a European system in the United States. This is an issue of individualism vs collectivism.

As a Latter-day Saint, I agree with you about Mr. Beck. He needs our prayers, but we also need to make sure that we are living our lives in harmony with the teachings of the Lord. Doing so often requires relinquishing ideas and beliefs that simply do not follow His teachings or those of the Prophets.

to save time, I excerpt from my previous 113.4 to give you something to shoot at:

“She has made good points about the entire political spectrum being stuffed full of feces and our country being on a downhill slide into bad places — but I would like to have seen her make the same criticism of Beck, for I find his proposed solutions to not be.

I don’t think it requires listening to his style of presentation in order to “get” that we are in deep doo-doo and that our politicians are not inclined to change that becuase they are bought and sold by huge monieed interests. Has Beck ever criticized those hands that feed him?

I submit that if sechandler912 finds Beck so vital to inform her of the mess we are in, and no one else will seem to do for her in that role, then something is wrong. It does not take a genious to see the evidence all around us. It is just simply not true that Beck is the only one to be pointing it out. Maybe the problem is that sech only trusts mainstream, US-based, news sources?”

In other words, what makes Beck particularly useful to you in your educational process? I do not assume he does not provide you value in that way, it is just that I have never yet had that experience and as a student of human nature, am truly curious how that workd for those whom it works for.

genennene,

Fox gets the best ratings because it makes people THE MOST comfortable.

RELAX, we don’t have to pay higher taxes.

RELAX, none of the poor really need your help, they are just lazy and need to pray more.

RELAX, global warming isn’t real.

RELAX, Republicans are spending your children’s future on wars.

RELAX, our troops are winning every war and everybody greets them with kisses and flowers.

RELAX, none of your enemies have even one very slight grievance to work out with them they just hate freedom.

This is UNCOMFORTABLE?

>> Article: “[Glenn Beck] also managed to bring the National Council of Churches–once a powerful umbrella organization for Christian churches–out from hibernation…” <> Article: “Progressive evangelical leader Jim Wallis, taking a page from his conservative counterparts, is calling for Christians to boycott Beck’s shows.” <> Article: “…the Judeo-Christian tradition from which [the] Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints springs…” <<

I suppose it is no accident that the article quotes a far-left ecumenical organization (the NCC) and a far left "religious leader" (Jim Wallis) who is an Obama supporter and "spiritual advisor." Both of these are voices for the far-left political agenda. Furthermore, the LDS did NOT "spring out of the Judeo-Christian tradition." Their Book Of Mormon trumps the Bible where the two conflict (according to their "missionaries" who knock on my door). In addition, they are polytheistic as they teach that men may become "gods," and they teach that Christ was originally an angel and that Lucifer and Christ were *brothers*. The average Mormon may not know this, but it is Mormon doctrine.

I saw the show in question and I believe what Beck was getting at is that the far-left rejects most of the moral teachings of the Bible and Christ (the sanctity of life and homosexual marriage, for example), but they "invoke" the name of Jesus as cover to enact far-left "social justice" tenets through force (which Jesus never advocated). Certainly Jesus advocated helping the poor, but as an individual initiative. He never advocated government involvement or forced income redistribution as a vehicle for doing so. It is very telling in Arthur Books book "Who Really Cares," that those who are "social justice" acvocates give only 1/4 as much to charity as conservatives — while portraying themselves as "caring" (until Obama became politically active, his income tax returns show he frequently gave less than 1% of his income to charity). The message of the true church should be that men are dead in their sins and need a Saviour (Christ). The problem with "social justice" as the primary message of a church is – it is often anti-Biblical and it has no power to save.

With regard to Jim Wallis and "social justice," it would be good to read the book "God Verses Socialism," by Joel McDurmon.

Fascinating Exchange

To me we are talking apples to oranges.

Most want to help the less fortunate – we are all good hearted here (at least in intent) – the disagreement is how.

Those that are “completely” unable to help themselves should be helped with the goal of self sufficiency. Should the government do that or private sector do that?

I contend that if taxes were very low – voluntary support would be huge. I think are are very different and much more affluent that we were in the 1900′s.
In other words when people get past there basic needs – they are pretty generous if they are aware of the need.

Or

Should government be the vessel of assistance. This is a fundamental difference in opinion.

On other words – do we believe in people or government.

Do we rely on volunteer contributions or involuntary?

I prefer the former and that does make me stupid or callous. Many believe in government – they are not stupid or callous. I respect both. No one here seems to be convincing anyone of anything – just verbal jousting, which is fine – it’s the American way.

We will decide at the voting booth and hopefully move forward with some level compromise.

thanks

It’s obvious if you listen to Glenn Beck that you would be an familiar with the practice of cutting up information to spread misinformation – that’s what his entire show is based on. And that’s one of the things that make him the most dangerous!

Any one who thinks that Jesus preached Social Justice has not read their bible and does not understand what Jesus taught at all. True social justice can only exist in an environment where the judge and determiner is the Savior. Since he is not here, I suggest that we don’t confuse governmental “social Justice” with what the Savior would do. No form of government imposed by men will ever or can ever be in harmony with the Lord without His specific instruction in the matter. Anything that forces an individual to do something they don’t want to do is not a Christian concept. Only one being I can think of likes to use force to get his way and his name is not Jesus.

Gee you listened to a snippet of Beck’s show & don’t understand what he’s saying. Maybe you’re afraid to listen to an entire segment … at least.

I have to agree with you there, Glenn Beck’s twisting of peoples’ words all the time is getting so old. It would be great if he would stop that, especially because it would pretty much leave him with nothing to talk about

Glen Beck for President!

scooter trolley, I’d like to hear what YOU are doing about it, if anything. Apparently you are already wised up, so what now besides blogging?

Please don’t try avoiding answering by asking me the same question, because I DO have a life, thank you, and I am taking time out from it to both type now and then next got to my US representative’s office to register more than one paragraph of comment about a vote on the Medicare for All push in the House today

I get it you’re being ironic, right?
To paraphrase your post:

“Either Glenn Beck is quite naive and did not understand these comments/events in context or he is fully aware of their meaning and is intentionally distorting his words to purposefully create controversy. You decide which it is.”

This could apply to ~95% of what Beck says on his shows every day!

>> “the Tea Party people don’t want socialism, but they live on Social Security…and say they are “entitled” to it.” <<

You painted the tea-party people with too broad a brush, but your statement above really got me. Social Security does not fall under the normal umbrella of "entitlements" (although many try to present it as that). The government forcefully took my money for all of my working life with a promise to begin doling it out to me when I reach 65. I could have made far more by investing it myself, but the government gave me no choice. So Social Security is not a normal "entitlement" for which many did noting at all to earn. It is an obligation (and promise) of the federal government to give me back what they took from me. I am not being given other people's money, but my own.

I get it you’re being ironic, right?
To paraphrase your post:

“Either Glenn Beck is quite naive and did not understand these comments/events in context or he is fully aware of their meaning and is intentionally distorting them to purposefully create controversy. You decide which it is.”

This could apply to ~95% of what Beck says on his shows every day!

amackley,

beck is a moron. He is a hate monger.

I will admit that some of the things he says might be true…..”some of the things.” But that does not make him a saint or anyone you can trust or believe in.

The man has made some very serious hate comments, and for that, I disagree with and dispise the man.

Jesse Venture has recently made comments about some conspiracies he believes in. I like the fact that he had made comments about the bush administration which I believe in, but I think the guy is a loon when he promotes his conspiracy theories.

There is the fundemental difference…believing in government. We are experiencing the most corrupt gov. in the history of theUS. Never has graft kick-backs and payoffs run as rampant as they do today. To numerous to cite here but a cursory exploration of the expendintures in congress would bear this out. I am so sorry, but power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So the bigger and more powerful the government, the more it will seek to feed this fundemental truth of big gov. So as Obama fuels this monster, it becomes less in “We the people”‘s control and more in the control of a few w/ a limited philosophy of what “they” think is right for this country. Wrong answer. Soon it will be like the “terminator” movie. The question will be, when will our gov. become ascient of a socio-marxist government in which there is no going back. Danger Will Robinson!!!!

and you could have lost it all, as well, depending on your choices and timings. That’s one potentially huge difference between public and private safety nets. (but don’t jump too quickly to the conclusion that I approve of the way our government/Federal Reserve control game is set up, and therefore put my faith in its everlasting benevolence)

mycophileIf “YOU listen to Beck long enough to “get” him, how about you do me a favor and do so now and then get back here and report what he is trying to say that denjudge didn’t hear? I’d do it but I’m too busy trying to work in what feels like a stacked-deck economic system. How about a little charity for a guy who is a little short on time capital?

Try to ignore any feeling of sarcasm here, ’cause I seriousy would like to hear the differnce between denjudge’s quick read and your long one”.

I did not listen to the segment he is referring to. Yet. It is online and when I am off work. I will listen to it or read it. See, you actually have to listen to, or read something to understand it. I know of no one who can pick up a book, read for two minutes and understand the point or content or facts of a book. This is the same with a news report. You can’t come in on the middle, read or listen for a minute or two and think you understand the point.

Feel free to log on yourself, after work. Do your homework before judging. It is what Glenn Beck encourages at all times.

One thing is for sure If I call someone on something I would atleast get there name right, which you didn’t.

Speaking as a rational person…..
[1] PROVE THERE IS A GOD.
Can you?
[2] Lets all attack one another, why dont we.
Last person standing is the correct one. Gee, good idea. [Thats what God is all about, now isnt it?]
[3] I doubt seriously Glenn Beck or any other rational human being means…’let the needy lay in the ditch’.
[4] Most of the responces to this article, AND the article itself, totally miss and distort GB’s point.
THINK
- Do you want a dictator, Organization, or Govt that decides what you think, how you live [or not], and every aspect of your life?
Yes? Solution. Move to Cuba.
No? Solution. Watch your back.
- Progressionists and Liberals will always try to rule you. Conservatives arent much better.
They know whats best about any issue.
- I dont know about what ‘YOU’ want America to be, but I love the idea of FREEDOM.
Freedom from a Govt that wants to enslave me.
Freedom from nutjobs who want to hurt me.
Freedom to live my life as ‘I’ see fit, not as someone else decides for me.
FREEDOM to enjoy my own ideas, and form my own opinions.
- Freedom is the cornerstone of America. Did you forget?
Religions, Democrats, Republicans, Unions, Big Business, Organizations, are not the foundation of America.
The foundation of America is you and me, and FREEDOM.
When you lose FREEDOM, America ceases to exist.
So does the Church, and every other Organization.
Your left with Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, Castro, Mao, and crazies running around playing Rwanda.
- I support GB’s opinion to the extent that he is warning us all, of a potential threat, to our persons, familys, and way of life.
His warning is backed up by human history. 100%
Lose your FREEDOM, lose it all.
So believe what you want.
Its your bed, and your going to have to lay in it.
I pray that America lasts forever, because America means FREEDOM.
- Get out of your self-imposed box, my friends.
You know the truth.
GB is ‘not’ the enemy, but just the messenger.

This is silly, you all know he belives in Jesus, and your not hurting him one bit, the man stands up for us.
You just dont like him, thats fine but you’re all loosing credibility by making outrages and silly claims….

denjudge,

Russia fought with the Allies because they were attacked by Hitler. Why did Arab countries support Bush I’s invasion of Kuwait? The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I would suggest you actually listen to Beck before jumping to conclusions. He thought the woman gaining weight was wrong, but that she was entitled to be wrong. I am certain he would feel the same way about you.

well said and fair enough, but I doubt I will make the choice to do so in the face of other more personally-pressing priorities and responsibilities to other people.

Alas. so little time and so many issues and corners of them. I was hoping you would be the one in a division of labor to digfest and report, since it may be a relatively higher priority for you than for I. If you came back with a report about a notion that Beck presented that I had not thought of before, it might change my priorities a little, just like my coming accross this very discussion has me sepnding more time online commenting here than the total of all the time I have ever spent doing so before, becasue it struck me as unique in the genre. I have listend to only two entire Beck shows, and neither of them gave me that reaction. Sorry. But I wanted to give you a chance to help Beck do so for me.

mm mm mm. Barack Hussein Obama.

What these poor progressives don’t seem to understand is the meaning of social justice, as the term is used today and as the term is being used by Beck. To hold Beck accountable for the terms old, since replaced, and therefore irrelevant meaning is just building up straw man arguments.

Today’s term ‘social justice’ — as used by Obama (though some poor folks may not get it) and used by Beck, is all about using ‘justified’ force on the rich and upper middle class, to reward (minus government fees of course) the poor and lower middle class.

Today’s term ‘social justice’ would more aptly called ‘social revenge.’

From what I’ve read of the Bible, i.e. cover to cover, Jesus said nary a word in support of forcibly taking from one in order to give to another.

Once again, people do not know their history.

The 1890s had corruption with the railroads, the robber barons and the monopolies on beef, oil and several other products in direct bribes that this era is very, very clean by comparison.

Hell, even forty years later, corrupt party boss Tom Pendagast got Harry Truman into the Senate.

How about Watergate?

Sure, there is corruption but, it is ALMOST ALL involved in deregulation and about having regulators who previously were and return to be employees of the industry they are working to regulate.

You are advocating stopping the fox from watching the hen house by tearing down the hen house.

WE ARE THE HENS.

Deregulation would play right into the hands of the people who are corrupt.

It would be like allowing Standard Oil to return to being a monopoly because of too many connections between anti-trust people and Standard Oil.

HEY! How does on turn off the Swampland email notifications of nmew posts! I am late for my appointment with my US Reps lead staff person to ask questions and opine on what the answers add up to for me, and fear my inbox will be maxed ouit for the day when i return!!!!

ALSO… Glen does his research, he may say his opinion, but he clearly states his facts in the clearest way possible with that chalk board of his.
Look, for all the people who hate us right wingers I have this to say, please listen ok?
If you want to know where we’re comming from all you have to know is that we base our opinion according to our constitution. Progressivism may have some good ideas, but they stray too far from our const. that soo many people served to protect, including me (marine here) Come up with just as good of an idea but have it based in american constitution. Once we start to stray to far then we wont be able to get back . Thats it…..Glen Beck thank ya buddy!!

genennene…

What beck said about that woman who had a miscarriage is unforgiveable. I don’t care if he might have been on drugs or alcohol. What he said is what his soul believes. The man is a hatemonger. He is one who does not care for those less fortunate than he is, and for that, I cannot stand the man.

Even if he has stopped drinking and drugging, the man continues to make hateful statements. He “joked” about putting poison in Nancy Pelosi’s wine….in an effort to try to kill her. Anyone who “jokes” about trying to kill another human being is a sick MF in my point of view.

Go in a block email from this site is the only way I can figure out.

Hmm, the tone has clearly shifted here with the new wave of commenters. Is there a new link of Amy’s post at another site?

Well, noparty….

The fact is, I have watched beck more than a “couple of minutes.” I know that anything he says is the point of view of a lunatic. So when I saw what I saw tonight about his rants on an overweight woman, I know that he is scraping at the bottom for something, I don’t know, about some evidence that Obama’s plan is evil.

beck is an evil man. He only wants what is good for him; he only wants what is good to increase hise $23 million salary from last year.

And now it’s 500 replies. Joe Klein’s record may fall yet.

genennene and takesavillage…..

I understand that….but do you understand that beck is a loon?

I have listened (watched) beck. I did so last year. The man is a loon.

I will repeat what I have said before….he may some things that are true, but his methods (the means) are ridiculous and hateful. I will not listen to a man who calls our current President a “nazi.”

genennene and takesavillage…..

I understand that….but do you understand that beck is a loon?

I have listened (watched) beck. I did so last year. The man is a loon.

I will repeat what I have said before….he may say some things that are true, but his methods (the means) are ridiculous and hateful. I will not listen to a man who calls our current President a “nazi.” Beck is a nazi.

You are sick.

pilotdude~

In whom do you trust to tell you what is sticking to the Constitution and what is straying from it?

You must be aware that it only takes 5 almost completely and therefore effectivley unaccountable persons in black robes who get out very little into the real world in to arbitrarily interpret the Constitution anytime they want to (There is NOTHING that requires them to base their decisions on anything at all, believe it or not.) So it can’ tbe the Supremes you put your faith in.

Who or what is it?

P.S. My US Rep staffedr called me to say I was too late ‘cuz someone else had been waiting. This discussion has interfered with a man doing his palnned civic duty, in favor of another form of it. I hope the new wave of posters proves wortht the choice. C’mon, pilotdude, make me proud!

denjudge ”

Well, noparty….

The fact is, I have watched beck more than a “couple of minutes.” I know that anything he says is the point of view of a lunatic. So when I saw what I saw tonight about his rants on an overweight woman, I know that he is scraping at the bottom for something, I don’t know, about some evidence that Obama’s plan is evil.

beck is an evil man. He only wants what is good for him; he only wants what is good to increase hise $23 million salary from last year.”

Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/14/why-does-glenn-beck-hate-jesus/comment-page-6/#comments#ixzz0iHxfVIDU

You are are the one who said a couple of minutes. ….

Of course he wants to boost his salary…this is a capitalist country. It is also the most charitable country, government and individually. Charity is voluntary. ….not forced….that would be one of his main points. The things he says are good for me and millions of others, not JUST him. I don’t work 60 hours a week to give my money to you. I shouldn’t HAVE to should I? What do you think..?

Prove him wrong Denjudge. Just try. Come on…let’s see it.

Thanks, mycophile

I really do not get what these cons are trying to point out. beck is a first class, grade “A” loon. No ifs, ands, or butts.

And, no party, people frankly do not have time to do the research you are asking for. When we see beck over and over again say the ridculous things he says, that is time enough for me and many others.

It doesn’t come as a surprise to those of us who get it, but anyway, the activist behind these “religious” attacks on Glenn Beck is Jim Wallis, i.e. Obama’s spiritual advisor. He’ll probably be promoted to some kind of czar any day now.

Glen Beck doesn’t say anything bad about God, in matter of fact his hope is in God, not a Socialist Government that enslaves us, strips our liberty, and limits our choices.

I saw someone else post that Jesus healed the sick. But Jesus’ ability to heal the sick and do miracles came from God to glorify God and prove to people that He was the Son of God, not to tell people the ruling elite needed more taxes and power, my hope and change is in God not our corrupt and power hungry politicians, who would be happy to have people worship and adore them, that belongs to only God.

pilotdude, that is equivalent to a islamic sucide bomber saying he/she is going to blow up a few Americans because the Koran says so (Never mind that it is his/her interpretation of the Koran).
.
Do you agree that the sucide bomber should go by the book?

He would make a good false prophet.

To denjudge…..I feel waaaaay more hate coming from you then I ever have off of Glenn Beck. Maybe you should look in the mirror for what you hate.

Speaking as a rational person……
[1] PROVE “Progressionists and Liberals will always try to rule you.”
Can you?

Denjudge, if you refuse to back up what you say or even read or listen before you state your opinion your argument can’t hold water or even be given kind consideration. Glenn does the homework/research for you then tells people to prove him wrong, do their own research. Barry Obama tells you that you need to just take his word for what ever he says and just go along with him. Sorry, doesn’t work that way. I am more inclined to believe someone who shows me facts instead of secrecy.
Your opinion doesn’t count if you don’t know what you are talking about.

I don’t know who denjudge is, and this is my first swampland blog experience, but I’m going to repeat (via paraphrase, and thus it could smack of editorializing)something that denjudge seems to have needed to repeat several times, in an anticipation that it will need to be said again soon when another new poster hasn’t read enough of the other posts to have caught iot, and thus wastes their time

Here it is:

denjudge sez that Beck continues to periodically spew hateful and unconscionable characterizations and cruel mockeries about individual people, that in another day would have goten him hauled out into the public square and stoned, at best. Denjudge reports that Beck has done this recently, not just when he was drug addict (not drug addict and alcoholic, btw, because alcohol is a drug, so just “drug addict”).

If that is all true (and my limited experience of beck does not belie that notion), then how can any sane and rational person give him the time of day? Why waste one’s time having to vet everything someone sez, and why fill one’s pshyche with poison and rely on exercise to eliminate it from one’s system?

Life is short, its moments are best spent where one is likely to get the most bang for the buck (there’s an obvious pun I could follow that with, but to do so would risk me slipping into the shadows for those who could not see the playful expression on my face)

Thank You , for protecting and defending The Constitution of the United States, our Republic stands or falls without it. We are in a socialist site that believes in a living constitution, or “rule by men” rater than a “rule by law”, which sets us apart from any nation in the world.

pilotdude the post above was for you not the leftys
Thank You , for protecting and defending The Constitution of the United States, our Republic stands or falls without it. We are in a socialist site that believes in a living constitution, or “rule by men” rater than a “rule by law”, which sets us apart from any nation in the world.

Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/14/why-does-glenn-beck-hate-jesus/comment-page-7/#comment-145533#ixzz0iI3KGCyz

If denjudge is mistaken about this aspect of Beck, then why have none of Becks articulate and “do your own research” advocates countered denjudge’s claims with the facts in the manner in which they demand of Beck’s critics?

I claim insufficient knowlege to be sure which opiniuon is the more correct. All I know is I have a keen sense of logic and “whole-brain” analysis, and I have yet to see (“hear”) a clear and unquestionable deconstruction of denjudge’s point.

I the closest I have seen it come was illustratesd by that poor sech912 lady I may have sloppily chased away — it is the argument that sez; “When Beck acts despicable, it doesn’t bother me enough to stop listening to him, because he enlightens me.” To that I have said: “Why chose him for that? Don’t you already see it for yourself, and, if not, are there not other sources of the same information not burdened with having to put up with as much despiction?

FT, Jesus spoke to individuals, not national amoral entities. You speak as if when he returns he will save all who passed legislation to condone healthcare which includes abortion. I think that as individuals we have an obligation to help those who are in need, but collectively, as a country, Jesus is not going to put the Pelosi’s, Obama’s, Bush’s, Massa’s to his right side and say follow me, because they passed another welfare bill. Welfare has been the bane of our society. Since the inception of welfare millions have been lost to social decay due to a lack of motivation to do anything but watch TV and wait for a welfare check. Yes, there are times in many people’s lives when they need a helping hand, that is the place for churches, local donations, family. The country as a whole cannot say we are better because of the welfare state. We have lost a whole generation to “I am entitled to…” instead of I can do it myself.

tds77~ correct. Again I say, even “The Rule of Law enshrined in and by our Constitutution is not what most think it is. Through, at the very least, the Supremem Court, it Ican be arbitrarily insterpreted to mean ANYTHING that no more than 5 very particular people want to say it means.

Thats why it is important to select those who set on this bench to uphold and protect as written, not inject their opinion of what they think it should say.

First of all, I must state that I deal in facts only, and have no time for the tired ideology of radicals Progressives,socialists and marxist supporters. All are ruinous to any free society. The socialists pit the classes against one an other. They incite the working class to join them in a false revolt, duping them into thinking they are on their side. In the end, the government has total control and the working class sinks back into its adverse poverty state. The progressives achieve dominence by taking up the cause of the “poor” by setting up massisve give away programs designed to garner favor and guarantee them votes. This administration has do everything it can do in skirting the constitution and criminally involving themselves in affairs where the government has no authority. If you want people to suceed, quit making excuses for everyones plight as though some one else’s success is the reason they are doing nothing to help themselves. Also stop trying to take over businesses, thats communistist and totally illigal. Lastly, Decease in the insistence of ignoring the majority of the American people. Know that the entire government can be replaced without a vote. It is possible though not wanted. The people have not only the right but the obligation should the totalitarian tactics increase toward the destruction of all that this country was founded on. The world nor I owe anyone a living. We take care of all the handicapped gladly, but must draw a line when the government constantly take our money to support the dependants they have personnally created.

Kenneth Presby

Thanks buddy! I appreciate the compliment.
I actually found this site on Glen Beck e-news letter. I try to believe that the left may be off the mark but deep down they are doing what they think is right. I listen to msnbc a little to try and understand where they are comming from. I notice both sides are brought into light by Glen but not so from the other stations.Glen backs his facts up I dont see any of the others doing 1/50 of showing WHERE and HOW he gets his facts….oh well

lionel, Stuart Z. covered it well, but I’m going to disagree with mum481 in that “economic parity” is not necessarily or automatically something that would be part of a socially-just world; that idealistic misperception is why almost all (if not all) communes end up failing, and is, I think, at the heart of most objections to ‘social justice’.

The reason I say that is that it’s human nature to want to enjoy the fruits of one’s labor; although there is little disagreement over the desirability, for reasons both moral and practical, to pool some percentage of surplus and share it with those who are unable to labor and/or have no one to provide for them, there is *tremendous* disagreement when it comes to the idea of having the fruits of one’s labor taken away and given to those who simply *do not wish* to labor.

Currently, the two things – that is, disability and lack of desire – are generally conflated for purposes of partisan influence. and this conflation is related to the oft-cited phrase “moral hazard”. I think that the Biblical sense of helping the poor never demanded economic parity or equality, but a sharing of surplus so as to provide the poor with some level of human dignity, decent shelter and sustenance.

Justice is often considered to be concerned with equitable treatment, especially equality before the law, despite one’s social or economic situation or class; in other words, if theft is against the law, then justice demands that the rich man who steals from the poor man be just as accountable as is the poor man who steals from the rich man – *social* justice includes the idea that the poor man would not, in a just society, *need* to steal from the rich man in order to have enough food to sustain himself and his family, with the addition that the opportunity to use one’s talents, wits, and abilities to escape poverty should also be open to all (and that last ideal is the basis for the idea of public education, since education opens opportunities, which has become especially true as technology has advanced).

That is, however, a far cry from “economic parity”, and good arguments can be made as to why economic parity is as unjust as is extreme economic disparity. The idea of justice is not to make every the same – which is unjust because we *are* individuals, and different; rather, the idea of justice, and I think of social justice as well, is for every individual to have the opportunity to develop his or her abilities and talents as far as they want to and are able to, while providing enough for those who are poor (for whatever reason) to have shelter, enough food to sustain them, and some measure of human dignity.

One point is that the latter is not merely a matter of material goods or money; even the richest of men can comport himself with precious little dignity, and the poorest, with the dignity of a king. So social justice can’t provide for such intangibles; what it can do is provide sustenance, and equal opportunities to develop one’s talents and pursue one’s dreams.

Hopefully, that provides some additional food for thought

yes, tds77. However, we do not have a mechanism to accomplish that. Recent history drives that home. Roberts and Alito declared in their respective confirmation hearings that they would not be acivist judges — that they would be referees protecting existing law. And yet in their recent Coprorate Money Spent in Political Campaigns Equals Protected Free Speech ruling, they relied upon arguments (much of them those of their fellow Majoity opinionaters) that were the LOSING arguments in the establishemnt of existing law. Having acted in diametric oppostion to their word, there is no accountablility. They remain seated on the power of the US Constitution, and shall continue to fart on it just as they now break all traditiona nd decorum and speak publically in denegration of the President of the United States. I would say the same thing if it were Bush or anyone else in that office right now. It is a system with a strength that is also a major flaw..

Pilotdude, Thanks for ignoring my question.
.
Is it because you have no answer or …?

You have got to be kidding. You used to have credible stories to write about where the story author had facts and in the case of a critic had at least heard the remarks being panned. How long do you think it will be before time goes the way of newspapers and other print media whose axes to grind got so big that they couldn’t get anyone to read them and chopped down their own readership. Get a literary clue before you disappear for lack of credibility and interest.

pres1030~ In your opionion, when was the most recent adminisration did other than you describe above, and how many in the history of this country?
I am refeerring especially to your atement that “This administration has do everything it can do in skirting the constitution and criminally involving themselves in affairs where the government has no authority.”

AND, do you think that our federal election process is tilted in favor or against “ignoring the majority of the American people”? Just one feature of many I would consider: Libertarians are fond of saying there should be a “none of the above” choice on the ballot. Many people decline to vote because one of the choices they are being given to choose between fit their desires. Therfore, what usually is described as a “landslide” or a “mandate” is no more than 60% (usually less than 55%) of no more than 80% (and usually no more than 40%) of only registered voters, which are no more than 50% of citizens who are nor more than, what, 80% of the adult population?

Hi Bruce, This is the argument that defines the hypocracy of the Tea Party movement and defines what American’s really want. If I said I am on Social Security and Medicare, people would say I am on welfare, how dare me? If I say, I paid into it since 1974, they yell at me and say, no, no, after one year, it is welfare. Then, when other people want to collect it, they say they paid into it, they earned it. If the Tea Party people want to shrink government and the debt and do away with social programs, they would have to give up social security and Medicare. Beck talks all the time about this, says it is a bad ponzie scheme and it has to go. He talks about the 90 trillion dollars in unfunded liabilities. If we are honest about it, the World War II generation paid nothing or one half of one percent into it, they lived to almost 100 and drew down 1,000 a month or more for 30-35 years, many of them own million dollar homes and have huge passive incomes. They received full free medical care all those years as well. It’s welfare for rich people. If they paid 2,000 into it, retired at 63, lived to be 100, they get 200,000 out of it, plus millions in free medical. The Republicans have a plan to privatize Medicare, they have to. Instead of the government paying out 500,000 for a massive surgery, they would only pay so much per month for an insurance premium. In addition to saving Medicare, this would dump tons of money into the private sector. There is no money left, the WWIIgeneration used it all up. The 75 million baby boomers cannot pay 10 grand into social security and expect to collect 200 to 300 grand out of it and millions in medical bills paid because they paid 5000 into it. It is welfare. Beck said today this is the first year Soc. Sec. is paying out more than it takes in. See, everyone wants the free health care and the free money. After one year it is no longer money you paid into it. People want the free socialist stuff, there first line of defense is I paid 10 grand into it, I want my free 200,000 out of it for 35 years. People have to admit they want the free stuff, forget bashing socialism, just work out a tiered system to keep these entitlement programs in place or privatize it. See when the Tea Party people say don’t take my free Medicare from me, but don’t give others free socialized medical care, they are being greedy hypocrites. It’s fine to want the free social programs, but then to bash socialism and socialized health care is nuts. What the old folks want is to keep the free stuff for themselves and Obama wants to take it from them and give it to the illegals and to people on welfare. Everyone wants the free stuff. Ben Stein and Geraldo Rivera are on Medicare because it’s free. I know the guy who produces Law and Order, he gives his Soc. Sec. to his daughter and his third ex-wife collects Soc. Sec. disability. I have relatives who make 300,000 a year on rents who have been getting 1,100 a month for 35 years in Soc. Sec. The richer people are, the more money they want. As far as people will help poor people and all of that, this is a completely consumer driven society, older people are counting on the Soc. Sec. as extra money to travel and so on. That’s the reality of people.

mycophile,
I believe they done what they should have, struck down a law that infringed on Freedom of Speech, it not only stopped what you complain about but also many others freedom to know or be reminded about what politicians supported or opposed right before a election.

If a elected official supported or opposed a isuue in the past or present they should be proud of it and their ideology, not ashamed and try to bury or cover up the fact. That is what Campaign Finance Reform accomplished, it allowed corrupt politicians hid the truth. By the way whose voice do you think should be silenced?

I contemplate your next question is going to be about shouting fire in a crowded theater, which is a whole different situation.

But then everyone immediately defends the biggest social programs we have, Social Security and Medicare, because they really want all the free stuff.

Beck is completely shut down. He’s preaching about god and reading from the Bible at this point. What about considering the other side is not evil, not out to get us, what about him bringing people on his show with opposing points of view? I would love to see him bring liberals and conservatives on the show and debate how to solve the social security and Medicare crisis, debate should be help and train people in prisons or not, give me the pros and cons, have a debate about slowing down fishing of our oceans, have an honest debate about whether or not it is good or bad to teach our children to take care of the Earth. He should have people debating what they learn about in college, whether or not people need an education, whether or not we need to control the human population. Why should anyone listen to one person tell us progressives are evil and out to get us, they want our money and will kill us. Come on. There is nothing reasonable going on with him anymore. People have to use their analytical minds and question things they hear. More people have been killed over religion than anything else. When anyone says we have an enemy, the other side is evil, all common sense is gone. Beck has OCD and parinoid delusions and stuff. He’s scared of earthquakes and change and he thinks things he doesn’t understand or that aren’t based on religion are evil. What upsets me is this guy was so smart and had so much courage in the beginning. He started a movement and stood up to the politicans and did something amazing. I am so sad to see he is losing it. When things no longer make sense to me, I know something is wrong. Beck was doing great, the only thing I can figure out is his religious stuff is blinding him from being able to keep going. This is where he is so off track now. He should be debating the left, incorporating some of their ideas, having guests on the show, having Tea Party people on to discuss what new things they are trying to do. Talking heads know you don’t disrespect your audience nor alienate parts of your audience. Beck just doesn’t get it. The crazy train has left the station, and Beck and Eric Massa are on it.

NewsBusters — TIME’s Sullivan: Why Does Glenn Beck Hate Jesus?
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2010/03/15/times-sullivan-why-does-glenn-beck-hate-jesus

As to your last question mycophile

NO

When the founding fathers said all people are created equal, they were saying all white, property owning males are created equal. Women did not get to vote and black people were slaves. The men were saying that if you are male and white and own property, you get one equal vote, if you have slaves you get a 3/5th vote for them, and women get no vote. Later on, black men got to vote, then later on, women got to vote. For people to use that old saying to think the founders were saying women and people of all races are all equal, no that is not what they were saying. Times have changed due to civil rights and social justice. I’m just saying. People in this country and around the world can’t even agree on which gods are real and the average person can’t get it there is no god. No wonder they hang on to Beck’s every word, and parrot it back. The religious stuff and demonizing the left is not going to solve one thing, not one thing.

Lots of comments there too.

gaph @ 162.1

Interesting.

Since i asked: “Don’t you already see it for yourself, and, if not, are there not other sources of the same information not burdened with having to put up with as much despiction?”, I shall assume for now your “no” was that you have found no more palatable sources of information. If that were the case for me, I would either listen to Beck, or else to no one, You apparently choose the former.

But that does raise my curiosity about the first part of my self-quaote above. Shall I take it that you are a person who does not already see for yourself how much in deep-doo-doo our country is, and therefore seek to discover if and how much we are, and that is why you value Beck?

I emailed Glenn Beck yesterday and I told him, Glenn your followers want Social Security and Medicare and I told him, they are never going to give it up, they want the social programs. Here it is again today. The minute I mention it, people go, no, no, we paid into it, we are entitled to it. Everyone knows it’s 85 trillion dollars of unfunded liability. I hope he reads his emails and he gets it people want the social programs. That would help him get off it about anyone who wants to stop pollution and limit the human population and pay poor people a living wage is an evil communist. No one is going to help anyone without social programs, and there isn’t one thing wrong with this country being like European countries. How many people like working at Walmart or 7-11 or McDonalds for so little money that they are eligible for food stamps and free medical so a few stock holders can live in 10 million dollar mansions? Capitalism has worked out so much better than European socialism? Not so much.

“.. Society has an obligation to care for the ‘least of these.’” Amy Sullivan, you could have simply wrote communism.

There has to be a balance though. Corporations get a lot more welfare from the taxpayers than poor people do. They call it “subsidies” instead of welfare. Have you seen that show Undercover Boss? A CEO of 7-11 or White Castle or Hooters goes undercover and sees how hard people work for minimum wage. Guys at 7-11 working the graveyard shift for almost nothing, putting their lives in danger of getting robbed, women working at Hooters for minimum wage being humiliated and degraded, while the CEO who can’t do the jobs they do lives in a 10 million dollar mansion. I don’t get everyone’s obsession with the government is going to take all your money and give it to who? Only the few really wealthy people pay most of the taxes, and 90 percent of the wealth of this country is owned by a handful of people. Beck is just scared they will take all those millions he made off of us on all those books he wrote away from him. There has to be some balance. The minimum wage would have to be $16 an hour to equal it’s purchase value it had in the 1970s. Yes, people on welfare cost this country a lot of money, it spreads out into the prison systems, court appointed attorneys, free housing, on and on. The average person should be focused on doing away with the welfare programs and with going after the corporations, working with people on the left to get union wages into welfare towns, setting a living minimum wage, cleaning up the environment and working with people on the right to do away with the entitlement programs and balancing the budget. Both sides need to work together. I do not believe one side is evil and one side has god with them. It’s all nonsense.

sechandler912, I joined this site solely to post in support of some of the things you have been saying. Specifically, this line of thought:

“I meant that if you truly listened LONG enough to hear through the histrionics, you would hear what people are resonating with–not crackpots, but middle American, solid working class, intelligent, grounded individuals. They are DONE with the games, on BOTH sides. He’s the only one I’ve heard that articulates the truth that CORRUPTION ON BOTH SIDES is our enemy.”

You lay out honesty and get little back but the same tired unoriginal responses back.

I could not help but notice that no one seemed to make any negative mention (not one) of any Democrat/Liberal/Progressive whether they be politician or even simply a public figure. Sadly, this tends to consistently be the case. It’s almost as if the prevalent thinking is that while any or every right-winger or Republican or conservative does or will readily lie to anyone about anything, no one and any opposing side would or could ever do any such thing. And that simply isn’t the case.

Further, these same people miss the point entirely of informal groups such as the Tea Partiers. Just today I heard someone mention that the Tea Partiers (while, true, perhaps primarily conservative) are not by any means exclusively anything but simply tired of ANY and ALL elected officials lying, cheating, etc. It’s an amorphous group with one real agenda: Politicians, if you’re going to lie to us, we’re going to vote you out at the soonest possible time. It’s so very, very, very simple yet willing and wholly ignored and viewed as a right-wing thing. I remember when the Tea Parties first started. Immediately they were viewed as a super racist group that surely sprang up out of anger and fear that a black man was now president. Yet, if one only cared to take a closer look, they’d find that there were black men AND women going. Further, I was introduced to Rush Limbaugh by a gay man. How’s that for your stereotypes?

To put this as simply as possible, since no one seems to be honest with themselves enough to allow that maybe, just maybe, Beck has spoken at least one word of truth about something at some point in his life, I challenge everyone here to name and cite one example of a Democrat or Progressive or Liberal who has done even one thing they view as dishonest, immoral, disingenuous, illegal, etc. I can. Just as easily as I can name some from practically every party. Will (note I did not here say “can”) you? Go ahead. You can do it… try really, really hard. I have faith in you. Cite one. Just one. Someone admit that people from both sides can or have done wrong and let us see where that takes us. Maybe then we shall have an honest discussion.

Atheists claim to use reason for their believes, but never reason why it is mankind can reason.

You sir, have done something very similar. I doubt anybody likes living on food stamps. And do you doubt mankind’s ability to adapt and better themselves?

If you really think about, Communism only allows for one evil fat cat, which no one other than the Government can be. Knowing this I would rather take my chances with Capitalism if for no other reason than the possibility of being a fat cat myself.

“Not to mention the teaching of a certain fellow from Nazareth who was always blathering on about justice…”

The writer of the article has needs to study the Scriptures alot more than He apparently has. The so-called “social gospel” has no connection whatsoever to the Gospel Jesus taught: that we are forgiven of all sin and have everlasting life by faith, through Grace in Him alone as our Lord and Savior from sin, death, and Hell. How we live and treat others is our response to His love towards us…not in any way a part in our salvation.

I realize Glenn Beck is a Mormon. As such he will have a worldview as one. However he also cares about the United States and does not wish it to be either Communistic nor Socialistic. Something which is happening with this power grab masqueraded as a health care bill.

To his credit at least Beck encourages people to think for themselves and study history and not re-write it to their personal wants and needs.

One has to wonder whatever happened to reading the Constitution as it was intended. Not something to be changed and rearranged into whatever one wills.

Sadly, people do this justify alot of things, From saying there’s a so-called “right” to murder generations of Americans in the womb to an “entitlement” to healthcare that doesn’t even exist.

I like your post. I think Ron Paul is a decent politican. I think he’s honest. Hopefully, his son is too. I like John McCain. This is where Beck loses me. He says, oh, McCain is no good, he’s a progressive, no good, he wanted anmesty for illegals. I don’t agree with mass anmesty for illegals, but McCain is the one who went to Scott Brown and told him, look, you can win, I will help you, we can defeat the health care bill. He’s working 24/7 to stop Obama, that’s why Palin is campaigning for McCain. Arizona has a lot of illegals from Mexico, McCain had his view about it. When he found out the voters didn’t want an amnesty, he backed down. I don’t believe in labeling and thowing away McCain over one issue when he’s busting his butt to get things done. With the battle that is going on in Congress right now between the Dems and the Republicans, I wouldn’t pull McCain out of there.

That’s cute that a gay guy introduced you to Rush Limbaugh.

tds77 @ 161.5~

Hmmm, shouting fire in a crowed movie theater was nowhere on my mind, but later I will think about why it may have come to yours. Isn’t it fascinating how different minds work differently?.

I shan’t now take up the arguments, but I do hold a different opinion thatn your posted word’s suggest about the rightness of their decision. I hold VERY strong distinctions between between employers of people and the individuals themselves, and I think these 5 folks have either lost sight of that distinction, or else have claimed certain assumptions to be instead logical conclusions of analyses of the nature of corporations as regards the individuals in their employ.

However, of more immediate import is that I do not understand some of the things you wrote and request some furhter expalnation.

1) How is it that the decision “stopped what (I) complain about”? Perhaps you thought I was speaking of elected politicians? Because I was speaking of Supreme Court Justices, who are not elected, and therefore it seems to me that any changes in the rules governing paid-to-be-advertised facts or slander that affects the electorate’s emotions with neurolinquistic programming are moot in this regard.

2) Hmmm , thinking of the next unsuredness your post brought me, I now think that it IS likely that you thought I was speaking of Politicians and not Supremes. Excuse me for taking some liberty to put words near your lips, but your argument that Politicians should be proud of their ideology and continue to stump for their past positions on issues seemed to me if turned towards my Supreme Court Justices would be an argument that supports my point nicely — If a Supreme Court nominee publically claims that they are strict law-followers and not judiical activists, then should they not proudly adhere to that ideology? Certainly we would expect them to argue from the same rationalles as before, but these folks actually claimed that their past dissenting opinions, which, as I understand it, there is a long and unbroken and honored legal principle are NEITHER automatically considered law, fact, or substantiated legal argument in any court proceedings, were automatically now legally-established elements of fact and legal reasoning I am not saying that they should have kept their legal opinions and arguments off the table, I am saying that they should not have leap-frogged over centuries of the practice and refinement of principles of jurisprudence to ordain them as having been honed by the fires of that introspection and discourse and emerged rock-solid. I say they cheated.

3) 3) Now, as to your question of me, “whose voice do (1) think should be silenced?”, I risk assumption that I might have an idea of whom you would have me choose between. I choose “none of the above”, because I do not see it as a question of who should be silenced, but of whom should have the right to speak. That is EASY to answer; Citizens of the United States of America.

“Legal entiies” are NOT “citzens”. If they WERE citizens, they wouldalso have the right to vote. Are you in favor of Exxon and labor unions and Earth First having the right to vote? And if you would say (as those 5 Supremes would say) that those organizations are merely groups of citizens, so what’s wrong with that?, then i will say would that not be such citizens voting twice? Or would we fix that by barring any citizens who are “members” (of any category) of organizations whic vote from individaully voting?

Itsbroke – I unsubscribed, but I keep getting these dang emails. Thanks for replying. It lifted my heart–this whole thing has weighed on my soul a bit. It’s lovely to hear cogent arguments in support of Mr. Beck and more importantly principles that work. I know that truth will be self-evident again eventually. I just was hoping to avoid some of the harsher lessons. I have MY year’s supply, my preparedness is pretty good mentally, spiritually, physically, etc. I’m worried about some of you out there… Don’t worry, you’ll be welcome to my house.

I went to work at the welfare center this morning and passed by my friend who lives in his wheelchair by the street. I know that many of my good Mormon and non-Mormon friends support him, buy him meals, food, give blankets, etc. He always has a cig when he needs it, coke from Circle K, and he was listening to the radio today as I left (I wondered who HE listened to).

I know that many of my overly soft-hearted, well-intentioned friends would demand that he get off the street, demand we need to do better by him, etc.

Do you know that he truly wants to live there (7 years+)? People have tried to help him, over and over. “I did it, my way.” And I love that I live in a country where people can make their way. Live life according to their terms. Because of that freedom, people WILL fall through the cracks, injustices will occur. It’s messy. No easy answers. Jesus also said, “the poor will always be among you.” Ok, who’s gonna twist that one for us? THe reason there’s so much arguing over scripture AND healthcare is that truth is acquired through experience and wisdom. Raise your hand if you’re certifiably “wise.” Uh, yeah. The wise old man is just laughing at all of us in his rocker somewhere. He’s got his house paid off, eats what he decides to eat, has a savings account, lives within his means, loves his family, etc. He knows when his time is up–govt won’t need to tell him. I read a great book about a black man from the south who lived that way and didn’t learn to read until 96–he just decided one day he’d like to do it. No government programs, just hard work, a simple faith, and living simply. Title: Life is SO Beautiful. Highly recommend it.

In all our attempts to fix problems, I think we will all find that the heroes and the wise are the old men and women, laughing and rocking in their chairs. God bless you all. You know, the Chinese get that old people are wiser… BTW, I know Mandarin. Some of you might want to start taking a beginning class. They may want to trade debt for land some time soon. Chinese saying: If ye are prepared, ye shall not fear. Thanks for the English translation and reminder, Glenn. We hear you.

Glenn Beck is great. I love it when the cockroaches scramble when he shines the light of day on them.

In other words, Glenn Beck is great because he is a form of a human pesticide?

aiko~

to limit redundancy and save time, please see the 161 thread above.

Would you argue that the recent Supreme Court decision about Coporate Free Speech read the Constituion as it was intended? Or is a modern re-interpretation by similar reasoning as would be a right (you used the term “entitlement”, but that must have been done so loosely, yes?) to healthcare?

If you feel that it is a modern interpretation, does that present a paradox for you regarding support for the so-called “conservative” philosphy of the so-called “conservative” majority on the Court?

Not a human pesticide but a very potent form of ProgressiveCide. Drink the KoolAide its a antidote, a former Progressive told his followers that would work.

Don’t let the door hit you on the way out christiansshin…

>> patricksartor: Where in the bible is the term “personal responsibility?” <<

Where in the Bible is the "word" Trinity? The word is not in there, but the *concept* certainly is. As far as "personal responsibility," I believe Paul's teaching will do nicely, "He who will not work, does not eat." 2nd. Thessalonians 3:10

ttsbroke~

I am an extremely common-ground-finding (not just seeking, FINDING) person with a track record of facilitating truly collaborative brainstroming in goprus of peopel who historically to (and still have LOTS of incentive as well as momemntum to) throw things at one another and work hard to lable them as not part of their commuinity, or else simpley not-quite-human.

It’s VERY taxing, and sometimes I cannot stay completely abreast of the sword-swinging warrior energy. I have slipped a bit in this blog, such as when sech921 called it quits afterwards.

I had to try real hard to ignore my gut reaction to your post, because when I read it my mind heard; “Anyone who bashes right-wingers is a left-winger and all left-wingers are hypocrites because they never bash left-wingers and sechandler912′s honesty was met with only tired old responses here and none of them havew been able to be honest with themsleves and admit that BEck may have had at least one good idea in his life . . .and I was thus feeling like (I wrote “ffeling like”, not “going to” — it is an important distinction)ripping you a new hole because I felt very unfairly misunderstood, disrespected, and put into quite a generalized box, which to ME made you seem the hypochrite . . .

. . .and then I got to your challenge so my minds eye saw a possible doorway and then I was able to regroup.

So, I’ll first get out of the way the part that could easily be interpreted as judgemental, but I claim that it is merely my opinion: The hypothetical attitude that I suspected you of is NOT an accurate description of reality, and upon closer review of what you actually DID say reveals several opinions that are most suredly incorrect claims.

This blog is far too lengthy tor me to take the time to find the quotes, but I have a pretty good memory and I remember that there were at least one, and perhaps several commentors i am sure you would charactgerize as lefties who DID acknowledge that Beck may have had more than one good idea or insight, and several who made points out of opining that there were culls and pretenders and liars and other negatively-traited people accross the entire spectrum, even beyond the left-right model. I at least inferred both, but I will make it clear now.

I make it clear becuase i realize that it is very likely that you did not read a majority of the posts (I read all three-hundred something that had been posted before I made my first comment, so ai know how that task could easiluy have deterred anyone from such a preparation. If i were a newcomer at this moment, I would probaly pick just one post to say one thing about, and fold the tent int he face of enormity.

The clarity:

A) Although the two times I have ever listened to a Beck show (and each tiem it was in its entirety because I wanted to try to figure out for myself why the guy was so popular these days) I did not hear one articulation that I found useful to have in my bag, I ASSUME he has had at least one good idea in his life. In fact, I assume he has had more than one. IT is the rare human being who has not, perhaps so rare as to have been non-existent.

B) In my opinion, both Lyndon Johnson and Bill Clinton each did MORE than one dishonest, immoral, disingenuous, illegal thing WHILE IN OFFICE, and suredly out of office.

Am I getting somewhere?

C) For now more than 40 years, since before I was 16, I have said, I do say, and I am sure I will continue to day: “A pox on all their houses” to the instittutions of politics, religioin, and business, large and small. There are commendable individual members of those categories through history and location, but the collective institutional bevaviors strike me as selfishly manipulative in quest for more comfort and ease at the expense of others’, and each has seen periods of time wherein the group identity could only be described as descpicable. True, the opposite side of the coin has also manifested.

Do you hear me now? I don’t turn the other cheek as in smile and only focus on the love, I say, “Hey, you hit me and that hurt and that doen’t feel good and you know you would not like that either and let me tap you to give you the idea that I COULD hit back pretty hard and who would remain standing is a risk we would both take but let’s nto go ther, OK. Here, I’ll show you an example of how I think we could interact and have it feel better and be more productive and if you feel that from it then when you respond in kind I’ll REALLY pour it on.

That said, I have a life to get back to filled with helping others overcome roadblocks and finishing the good things they have started, so I am going to have to cheat us both out of my contnued participation even if you turn out to have been sincere in your challenge, because I’m sorry but I cannot risk the chance now that you might be merely maneuvering and thus it will take me at least hours if not days to get you over your version of the roadblocks our society instills in us to truly share our real human needs, wants, and fears, and past what most people do in the name of those things: share their pet solutions that they think if they came to pass would get tthier needs filled, prevent their worst fears from coming true, and facilitating their fondest hopes to manifest.

A fond farewell, all. I will be trying to unsubscribe for a while, and, failing that, block this address, to get some peace. This has been extremely interesting, but exhausting, especially while woven through my business day, which lasts 18 hours.

Anybody here like Obama’s old church?
Gimme a ‘God Damn America! God Damn America! God Damn America!’ – to quote his spiritual mentor. Be sure to take your children there…they need to learn all that ‘Progressive’ stuff at an early age. Beck correctly points out that churches and politics DO NOT MIX. In fact, it’s illegal unless, of course, you’re a ‘Progressive’ church; and a predominantly Black one helps too in defying the law. America, YOU elected BHO and I believe YOU are going to suffer from his “social or economic justice” as preached so clearly! Get ready for more since he’s just getting warmed up.

Work has nothing to do with personal responsibility. That is old mis-information that has clouded the conservatives judgement for a long time.
.
Personal responsibility has everything to do with accepting accountability for everything in your life! Notice that it does not mean BLAME, it does not mean SHAME, and it does not mean GUILT. It means I AM SOURCE PERIOD. When you get there, you can do something about LIFE!

Wow, I’d heard about all these “Beck haters” before but it wasn’t until I got my free newsletter from glennbeck.com with the link to this article that I actually saw some of your comments. I just have to ask… are you guys serious? Do all of you “so called Christians” out there who revile Beck realize what you’re doing?

I’ll bet that most of you agree with him on a lot of the points that he makes. Most of you probably like freedom. Freedom to give when you want to give, freedom to worship God according to your own conscience, freedom for others to do the same, etc. The thing that amazes me is how some people can misinterpret something so badly.

I’ll give an example. First, I’m LDS(the same faith as Glenn, and yes, we are a Christian religion), guess who else is, Harry Reid. He gave a talk at BYU several years ago and said that it is easier to be mormon and a democrat than a republican because democrats are charitable. First, let’s dispense with this so called distinction of democrats and republicans. We’ve “progressed” past that because most people realize that the corruption is widespread in both parties and there’s really not much of a difference between the two. It’s no longer “democrats and republicans”, the debate now is between “liberals and conservatives”. And somewhere along the way, it all got twisted up to where people think that liberals are the ones who care and are charitable towards all mankind, and conservatives are the rich, greedy, racist haters.

I understand that this is the way that much of society views this but it’s so backwards. Benjamin Franklin, who I think most people would agree was a good, charitable man, said that the best thing that we could do for the poor is to make poverty uneasy and uncomfortable. People, by human nature, take the path of least resistance. Of course we all have dreams, but if there’s an easier way of hitting those dreams, we’ll take it. The problem is that most people are not tenacious. When failure comes, as it ALWAYS does and must, if there is a safety net, we’ll fall into it.

Thus, a “welfare society”, or what is referred to here as “social justice”, is not a Christian doctrine. When he taught the sermon on the mount, he never once advocated someone forcing you to do good, or what I’ve heard referred to as “legislated righteousness”. He taught us to go the extra mile and to be anxiously engaged in helping. He taught us to care for the needy. But more important than all of that, he taught us “be ye therefore perfect”. If we are compelled to give, how can we be perfect?

It’s precisely that force that makes people feel less charity for the poor. I don’t mean charity as monetary, I mean it as the pure love of Christ. This is why Obama gave less than 1% of his income to the poor for years until he started getting into the political scene. That information is found at the heritage foundation. The point is that when government steps over its bounds and gets into the redistribution of wealth, or “social justice”, it only produces negative results. Americans are the most generous people on earth, it’s been documented that we give more per capita and per average income than any other nation on earth. So if the government would stop getting in the way, let people fail when they need to for their development’s sake, and let those who want to give to do so according to their own desires, we would quickly see this country, and this entire world for that matter, change for the better.

That is what Christ taught and what he really wants for us to do. He wants us to be perfect and give according to what we feel is right, not “social justice”. He understood how important it is to not control charity, otherwise he wouldn’t have ASKED the rich youth to give away all his riches and follow him, he would have FORCED him to do so. Think about it.

One article that I found very enlightening is actually a talk entitled “The Celestial Nature of Self-Relience”. It is at this address. http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=586b0e46d0bdb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Enjoy!!

The above quoted article is both false and deliberately misleading. The LDS leadership is well aware of the fact that their doctrines are not biblical. Moreover, they also admit that the Jesus Christ that they follow is not the Christ of the Bible. And eternal progression, the foundational doctrine on which the LDS stands or falls, is anti-biblical to the point of being blasphemous, as are their doctrines on deity and the atonement.

Contrary to LDS Apostle McConkie’s false claims in What the Mormons think of Christ, the Bible vigorously opposes LDS doctrines. Consequently, Mormons are instructed to use their own scriptures and revelations as a means of gauging the accuracy or _otherwise_ of the Bible.
“The most reliable way to measure the accuracy of any biblical passage is not by comparing different texts, but by comparison with the Book of Mormon and modern-day revelations.” (Church News, June 20, 1992, page 3, quoting a letter from the First Presidency [Presidents Benson, Hinckley and Monson] dated May 22, 1992, to all of the Church)
In light of the above, one can only assume that the earlier, dishonest statements about their teachings conforming completely to those of the Bible, were nothing more than a deliberate smoke screen designed to conceal the fact that Mormonism is an unbiblical religion and that their doctrines are exclusive to the LDS church alone. This closely parralels Glenn Beck’s constant rants and the Gospel according to Beck. He must have slept through most of AA.

The above irreconcilable LDS stances are what is termed, “running with the hares and hunting with the hounds.” In other words, they enable the LDS to put forward whichever opposing point of view suits them best at any given time.

And there’s a very good reason why they need these two contradictory approaches. On the one hand, in order to justify the fact that their doctrines are unbiblical, they use the excuse that the Bible has been corrupted and is unreliable, and that they have modern day revelation. On the other hand, the LDS leadership discovered a long time ago that it is far easier to win converts to their church, if they are under the impression that Mormonism is biblical. So they send their missionaries out with Bibles tucked under their arms, and with careful instructions to avoid being drawn into a discussion of any of their exclusive, unbiblical doctrines.

It is the policy of the LDS church to deliberately withhold knowledge of their real teachings until after the prospective proselytes have been baptized into Mormonism. Only then are they indoctrinated into the nitty gritty of Mormonism, in a carefully planned, graduated manner.

In the real world we call that deception; is that what you expect us to ENJOY!!

Anybody who says Glenn Beck hates Jesus is just plain ignorant. It’s like saying “TIME magazine loves Conservatives” or “Rosie O’Donnell hates food”. It’s the journalistic equivalent of yelling “fire!” in a crowded movie theatre. I wish these critics of Glenn would listen to him for more than 2 minute intervals, maybe they’d get some REAL insights into the man.

Bruce,

For the most part, with the huge flood of entries I lost track of this, however, if, as you say, “trinity” can be taken from the concepts of the bible without being there to begin with, then so can social and economic justice.

Should anybody take the bible word for word, wearing certain types of cloth and eating pork would get you the death penalty.

The bible, as far as I am concerned, is written by well intended people seeking to create a community of peace and justice. The science of the day were guesses about Adam and Eve (Catholics, among others, accept evolution leaving science to the scientists, religion, meanings of the bible and morality to the churches) and laws to live by.

Ignoring the fact that I do not consider it to be the words of any deity, still, it was always being used as a source for solving problems of the day.

The abolition of slavery, civil rights, forbidding of child labor, the ban on abortion are among a huge number of things from what may have been called “social justice”.

As a matter of fact, there is a very conservative concept of “social justice” in the pro-life movement.

I, myself, in college lobbied my congressman (a pro-choice Republican, as it happens) to support a constitutional amendment to ban abortion except in cases of rape, incest and risk to the woman’s life.

Unfortunately, a huge majority of the people on the trip could not debate against pro-choicers without saying the ten commandments which does not say anything about abortion.

Interestingly enough, if you like to bring in the concept of Communism, Stalin, also, banned abortion in the Soviet Union. However, I do not believe pro-life is a communist idea.

Now that many aspects of the social justice other than abortion conflicts with the corporate agenda. it is now considered an evil corruption.

Communists wear shoes.
Americans wear shoes.
Does that mean Americans are communists?

No.

Are compassionate religious people communists or, if you like, pro-lifers communist?

No. Not even close.

They are far, far less like Nazis than they are like Communists, but are not close to being anything other than people who believe in democracy and their own religion.

Because, mycophile, there is no substance to the “debate” only emotion. Now how do you fact check an emotional opinion, that IMHO, is wrong and serves only one purpose. And that is to spew hate. Ironically the very thing denjudge accuses Beck of. Who is the father of accusation……?

Comment 173.1 Iamsource……that sums up in one thought whats wrong with the values of this younger generation. And I assume you are under 60 yrs. old. Work is not being responsible….for what….not paying your bills, putting a roof over your head……clothes on your back….food on your table. Oh wait, there is a magical progressive fairy with the keys to the guv’mints unending supply of “other peoples money”. I see how it works now. Let everyone quit their jobs (remember, it is NOT responsible to work) and then let’s see how one meets Maslow’s hiearchy of needs (in a responsible way).

“The guy is a loon. He’s nuts. How can anyone take what he says as being serious????”

The same way we do you .

mikesugg,

You, obviously, have not heard much if anything at all about what is being debated overall.

First, unemployment benefits are 50% of your previous income and are taxable. Unemployment benefits only last six months. If you are working part-time (and, therefore, getting reduced benefits) you may re-register and get a reduced amount based upon your income over the past 12 months.

It is not much to live on.

Second, one must be proven healthy, able and willing to accept work in order to receive these benifits.

Third, everything from modern psychology to management theory show that, when at all possible if it is not going to cost them money (even they just break even) people want to work.

Think of yourself.

You do (or, if retired, used to) get up, take that drive listing to your regular radio station, stop in your favorite coffee shop, get to work, see those people you work with you regular clients and so on. That little five to seven day a week ritual is, for the lack of a better word, fun.
You, also, used to end your day happy that you got something done which was not all about yourself.

With incredibly rare exceptions, this is how we all think. We all like a little ritual, acquaintances, coworkers and friends from tied to that.

Job hunting and not being the one chosen is humiliating and frustrating, but a part of what, basically, everybody does when unemployed since doing NOTHING is even worse.

Unemployment benefits are set so that one is able to pay the bills, feed themselves and/or their children during the normal estimated amount of time it takes to find a new job (o months to 6 months).

When the economy is awful after deregulated banks created this mess by selling mortgages sold to people who did not know that they could not afford them and sold as bonds to people who did not know that they were loans to people who could not pay them, it may take much more than six months to make money.

Obama and Democrats are proposing that the government spend money on projects which need to be done anyway such as, among other things, road repairs.

This brings people back to work.

It, also, will get the coffee shop to hire back the people they laid off.

As the bible says (and I find this wise, but not from a deity) “There is nothing new under the sun.”

You either did or would have hated unemployment and loved to work, as your father, grandfather and so on as people still do today.

It’s recession brought on by lax regulation where fraud was tolerated and caused this huge shock to the economy.

Nobody has suddenly changed into preferring to stay home and do nothing.

I, myself, work from home and am self employed.

Why?

If I didn’t work I would be bored out of my skull and would start getting depressed just as I am sure you would have.

Conservatives are trying to take away that money to feed, clothe and house people during those brief times of unemployment and to prevent new jobs from being created by the government doing what already needs to be done.

Then, some, try to claim that this holy and in line with Christianity.

sechandler912

Question: should conservatives end payments to the sick and the unemployed do you believe that you will be able to by fund raising and other good deeds replace that money with your own money and/or the money of those who you can convert or raise funds from?

If so, then why haven’t you already done so?

If not, then wouldn’t it be a tragic if conservatives cut out money for the unemployed and poor?

If it would be tragic if the government to cut out money for the unemployed and the ill, wouldn’t you be disagreeing with Glenn Beck?

Patrickartsor –
You speak as if you have a good heart. If that’s true, that’s lovely. If not, you’re being incredibly manipulative. I’ll assume the former.

i don’t know what to tell you about seeing people as “tragic characters” when life hurts. I work to help people–honestly–almost every day. In 15 years I’ve had to learn to see the truth about people. Often the people I work with have had life poop on them. They ARE tragic if you look on the surface of their lives–the details and compare them with your own. It hurts to watch.

However, I learned at some point, that if I always saw them that way, that I relegated them to powerless. I started looking down on them, pitying them, feeling like they NEEDED me, and it fed pride. I also noticed that although they had hard things happen, many of them seemed to have compensatory coping skills–not always happy coping skills, but skills nevertheless. I started seeing that they had strengths, some of which I DIDN’T have. I grew to respect those I was helping, and learned from them. It is a common ailment of do-gooders–helping people can feed our pride and can actually be a cankor to our souls.

I also saw that there was only so much you could do for someone. That if you tried too hard, you could make things worse. Frankly, I had to learn to trust them that THEY could find the answers to their problems. I helped them, but tried to convey that trust that, although help could be received, the vision was, “what do I need to help myself?” It actually works amazingly well, and I see how the human brain/spirit/body can generate creative customized solutions to our own problems! It has blown my mind, and strengthened my testimony of the practical side of God.

I wish I could help you to see what I’ve seen. Welfare moms who told me, “I didn’t need someone to pity me, I needed someone to tell me I could change and point the way.” Indigent looking types that really just needed a kick in the pants. We’ve truly, with our do-gooder mentality, created an underclass that we often pity, throw money at, but certainly wouldn’t want them living next door–they’re messy. I really think subconsciously alot of the do-gooders/capitalists out there really loathe and fear the poor. On BOTH sides of the aisle.

I choose to help when I can, and learn from those I serve. I try to empower them to believe in themselves. I stopped pitying them–seeing them as tragic figures–perhaps because I DO help, but then work myself out of a job. So I don’t have that guilt that some of you may have when you’re not in the trenches. I’m telling you, people don’t need pity–they need a PERSONAL hand up. The checks kill alot of spirits and if you were in the trenches, you’d know what I was talking about.

The other key piece is the personal responsibility. 150 years ago–no bail-outs. People worked hard, lost everything sometimes, and moved on. They cried, they prayed, they dug in their heels, and started plowing again. If they didn’t, they perished. Sad. But there’s a great strength that comes from solving your own problems. We’re missing that more and more as a culture. I keep saying: It’s messy. Sometimes you should help, sometimes you shouldn’t. A big Federal program has no wisdom. Don’t know what to tell you–you seem to only hear the sound bite out of what I say that you like to twist. I hope for you that some day you will be in the trenches enough to learn the helping art. I am an artist after all this time, and it’s a lot harder than it looks/sounds. Be careful.

Patrickartsor -
You speak as if you have a good heart. If that’s true, that’s lovely. If not, you’re being incredibly manipulative. I’ll assume the former.

i don’t know what to tell you about seeing people as “tragic characters” when life hurts. I work to help people–honestly–almost every day. In 15 years I’ve had to learn to see the truth about people. Often the people I work with have had life poop on them. They ARE tragic if you look on the surface of their lives–the details and compare them with your own. It hurts to watch.

However, I learned at some point, that if I always saw them that way, that I relegated them to powerless. I started looking down on them, pitying them, feeling like they NEEDED me, and it fed pride. I also noticed that although they had hard things happen, many of them seemed to have compensatory coping skills–not always happy coping skills, but skills nevertheless. I started seeing that they had strengths, some of which I DIDN’T have. I grew to respect those I was helping, and learned from them. It is a common ailment of do-gooders–helping people can feed our pride and can actually be a cankor to our souls.

I also saw that there was only so much you could do for someone. That if you tried too hard, you could make things worse. Frankly, I had to learn to trust them that THEY could find the answers to their problems. I helped them, but tried to convey that trust that, although help could be received, the vision was, “what do I need to help myself?” It actually works amazingly well, and I see how the human brain/spirit/body can generate creative customized solutions to our own problems! It has blown my mind, and strengthened my testimony of the practical side of God.

I wish I could help you to see what I’ve seen. Welfare moms who told me, “I didn’t need someone to pity me, I needed someone to tell me I could change and point the way.” Indigent looking types that really just needed a kick in the pants. We’ve truly, with our do-gooder mentality, created an underclass that we often pity, throw money at, but certainly wouldn’t want them living next door–they’re messy. I really think subconsciously alot of the do-gooders/capitalists out there really loathe and fear the poor. On BOTH sides of the aisle.

Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/14/why-does-glenn-beck-hate-jesus/comment-page-8/#comment-145764#ixzz0iLX2wugo

I choose to help when I can, and learn from those I serve. I try to empower them to believe in themselves. I stopped pitying them–seeing them as tragic figures–perhaps because I DO help, but then work myself out of a job. So I don’t have that guilt that some of you may have when you’re not in the trenches. I’m telling you, people don’t need pity–they need a PERSONAL hand up. The checks kill alot of spirits and if you were in the trenches, you’d know what I was talking about.

The other key piece is the personal responsibility. 150 years ago–no bail-outs. People worked hard, lost everything sometimes, and moved on. They cried, they prayed, they dug in their heels, and started plowing again. If they didn’t, they perished. Sad. But there’s a great strength that comes from solving your own problems. We’re missing that more and more as a culture. I keep saying: It’s messy. Sometimes you should help, sometimes you shouldn’t. A big Federal program has no wisdom. Don’t know what to tell you–you seem to only hear the sound bite out of what I say that you like to twist. I hope for you that some day you will be in the trenches enough to learn the helping art. I am an artist after all this time, and it’s a lot harder than it looks/sounds. Be careful.

I asked a question.
How could I twist YOUR words when asking you a question?

So, basically, no you, your friends, family, etc could not provide as well as the government does.

By no means that I know of is anything the government is doing is preventing or discouraging your work.

As for myself, it has been many years since I helped out once at a soup kitchen. It was with a friend who, although from another parish, was, also, Catholic.

Interestingly enough (although we have not been in contact) he left religion behind years before I did.

Knowing him, he is probably with his own family now and, without religion, is probably still volunteering.

Without a check from the government for those who are physically disabled, though, your work would be dramatically more difficult.

Perhaps you would, but, I have no reason to suspect that if social services, in theory, were completely dissolved and turned into a tax cut that anywhere near enough people would take the money they got in a tax cut to bring to the poor.

In another topic of this blog, we went through game theory and the Light House Dilemma.

It is my strongest belief that, since human nature does not change, if there were never any government checks or any reduction in such, the vast majority of people would sit down in their living rooms and see those people starving in the streets on TV and say, “I wish SOMEBODY would help them out” and not make that somebody themselves since large flat screen TVs are expensive and, apparently, along with surround sound, the best way to hear Glenn Beck and his opinions.

(I would gladly pay money to remove Glenn Beck from my living room if he were here, but that is me, not all of you.)

Thank you , Mycophile, for your defense of my comments.

I do not watch beck on a regular basis, but I have watched him more than just a few minutes.

The guy is a loon. As I have mentioned, I am worried about our budget deficit. But I do not need a loon like beck to tell me so. You do not need to watch him 4 hours a day to tell you that he is such.

The answer to Glenn Beck’s preposterous misinformation is not to engage in an epithet hurling competition, but to sanely analyse his statements and them frame responses that satisfy the demands of reasoned intellectual argument.

Christians should run from their church if their church uses the term ‘social justice,’ and should check their church’s website before taking to the highways in errant flight.

According to Beck ‘social Justice’ is a cloak behind which lurk Nazism and Communism. Is he right, or is he mischaracterising Nazism [Fascism] and Communism [Stalinism, Maoism, Marxism, Leninism, etc] and, Christianity that is interpreted in ways associated with Liberation Theology and Social Justice?

Adolph Hitler said that in pursing his political aims and progroms he was working for ‘the Lord,’ by which he meant the Lord Jesus Christ. He was entitled to his opinion but who agrees with this declaration of his Divine Commission?

There is no disagreement that the 20th century experiences of Fascism and Communism bore strikingly similar results although their fundamental political philosophies were dissimilar.

Yet I am willing to publicly agree with Mr Beck if he will show:

a. That any Christian Church is set on murdering its religious or national opponents

b. That ‘social justice’ is inimical to sacred scripture, or

c. That it is impossible to be a socialist and a Christian at the same time.

I find that the requirement for believers to actively engage in Social Justice is evident in the Decalogue, in Jonas, and is most particularly set out in the Book of the Prophet Amos.

Social Justice is the fundamental teaching in the discourses of Jesus in Luke 10 and in Matthew 25, where what is done or not done ‘the least of these’ is at Judgement considered to have been done or not done to the Saviour Himself, and without reference to other spiritual exercises are the sole reasons given for condemnation or salvation.

Christians that deny biblical requirements to be instruments of social justice at individual and communal levels have already fled any Church that is remotely Christian in its understanding of what ‘the Lord thy God require[s] of’ them.

Mr Beck is ‘audience hungry’ and will say or do anything to impel people to watch and or listen to his ill-tempered outbursts, even imitating Joe McCarthy’s Anti-American Activities Committee, employing Hitlerian Propaganda ploys of de-humanising as prelude to murder, and distorting the teachings if Jesus Christ in such ways that raise serious concerns about the state of beck’s mind and personal faith.

Brother Beck and I are members of the same Christian denomination, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but I do not recognise the sacred faith of millions in anything that he says, and particularly is the case of his claim that Social Justice is the spiritual equivalent of strychnine.

Beck could not be more wrong. However, given time, I can guarantee that he will be even more wrong in the near future.

Beck’s condition is not necessarily terminal. It can be treated conservatively at home using the following methods:

a. Read the Scriptures, whether Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price [better yet, all four]

b. Take notice of the description of the early Christian Church’s Diaconate

c. Ponder James’ description of ‘pure religion and undefiled’

d. Commit to memory Matthew 25

e. Commit to memory the Samaritan story Luke 10

f. Ponder profoundly Moses 7.18

g. Consider the implications of AF 11,

“We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”

h. Make ‘A Poor Wayfaring man of Grief’ your security hymn.

i. Remember the improving motto:

“Thou, God, seest all!”

Unless Mr Beck will take his medicine, I am afraid that the enemy of mankind will soon have total control of his mind. And of what use will his fame and millions be to him then?

Ronnie Bray

mikesugg @ 162.3~

Maybe I have missed something, but I do not recall yet seeing any posts from you that supply any “facts” that were “checked” any more than those of the folks you are either responding to or which have responded to you — perhaps even less so.

But the only criticism in that statement is the one that goes something like let he who is without sin toss the first stone. Ijn my view, opinions and logic are acceptable types of information for public discussion. It works best when name-calling is minimized, but sometimes characterization is the most efficient way to get an opinion accross. (It is not a comprehensive example, but did yoiu know that Einstein’s most famous experiments were all words? That is right, not one single piece of them could be “checked” except in one’s mind by logic)

Would you care to answer the punchline question I posed in two ways in 162 and 162.2? I DID ask for an explanation of MOTIVATION. An answer to such a type of question can produce a “fact’, just like it can be a “fact” that someone likes alcohol because it distracts them from feeling pains, be they physical or psychological.

as to YOUR question of who is the father of accusation, I would say it would be he who accuses first. Are you sure that was denjudge? I’m not. Is it possible in this case it is Beck? Is it not the part about Beck’s characterizations of specific individuals and /or general groups of people about which this entire blog was spawned?

sugg~

STOP THE PRESSES! A far better comment tor you to respond to is ronniebrae @ 177. That goes for sech921 and all such posters who decry “name-calling’ in response to Beck. I care too little for the religious side of argument to get into depth on it, but enjoy yourself! But watch out — once you wade into the water you may never come out without your lungs full of it . . .there is no lifeguard on duty

That is why we are going to let conservatives fail because they need to learn a lesson here to. That lesson is that God would rather tax dollars be spent on things that help humanity rather than harm it. Do you honestly expect everyone to believe that God would prefer taxes to be spent on things that harm humanity rather than things to help it?
.
I am an ex-Morman, by-the-way, and Morman generosity is only for Mormans, and not anybody else, and only if you are in good standing with the Church’s beliefs. This is, by definition, a CULT, and any religion who’s generosity is held back until someone becomes compliant with it’s doctrine is by definition a CULT! I know this for a fact SIR, but I’m not going to go into it because it would be a long story, and I don’t have time right now. I guarantee it would blow the Church out of the water if I did.
.
We wouldn’t be in this healthcare problem if it weren’t for the greed, NOT generosity, of those who have money. All I hear you saying is that everyone who has gotten sick and/or died deserved it because they were lazy. I mean you have literally diagnosed everyone who has health problems and are too poor to do anything about it. You call yourself a Christian right? If this is Christianity, then Christianity has run it’s course on civilization. I, for one, want no more of it!
.
Churches SHOULD be TAXED because they are FOR-PROFIT organizations simply by the fact that their Charity is a payoff for fellowship. I don’t call that a choice when it comes to freedom of religion, and that is exactly what Christian based organizations (but not all of them) have been doing to non-believers all over this country for a long time.

ronniebray~

You may turn out to be the one who made the shot in this blog that put the “Beck is not a good source of information to rely on” position ahead of the “Beck is enlightening” position for good.

Although I will not chime in to discussion of the substance of your post because it is far from my knowledge and interests, I am glad to see your perspective presented via your approach.

I can almost see the Beck-faithful scrambling off the bench to try to wrest the ball away from you. It will take them a while to check your facts first, though, by reading your references. Unless, of course, they don’t really want to practice what they preach, which is to take the time to expose themselves to hours and hours of argument before opining on any of it.

People misunderstand the term “social justice” and “economic justice”. When people hear or see these terms the focus on the word justice instead of the entire phrase. The idea behind social and economic justice is to provide equal rights and money to everyone. On the surface this sounds like a productive idea, but the outcome and path to it fall in line with Communism and Nazism. The outcome is a country that is ruled by either a strong dictator or an extremely strong central government, which can both be thrown into the category of a police state. This is both Communism and Nazism. To reach this social and economic justice the government uses the concept of human rights and equal rights and twists it. They seek to redistribute property by taking it from the rich and dividing it among the poor, they institute progressive taxes, change the distribution of income, create a social welfare (health care) system for all, they work hard to villainize major corporations and take them over in the name of the people and economy, and so on. All this is done so that more power can be gained by the government. The Ideas behind Communism and Nazism are the same, and here are some: the seek to provide work for all (not the environment in which all have the opportunity to find work on their own), nationalize big businesses, and implement land reforms. Beck is right in that we should “run as fast as you can” from any church that preached “social or economic justice”. The NCC should agree, but instead they promotes a social agenda.

Go to this link to learn more about there views:

http://www.ncccusa.org/news/ga2007.socialcreed.html

Or seek out the NCC Social Creed for the 21st Century. You will see in there list of objectives a strong relation to what is found in Communism, Nazism, Socialism, and Progressivism.

this is a completely ridiculous article, smacks of liberal “obamaesque”twisted agenda/propaganda!Get real!Glenn Beck does not hate Jesus!
Jesus didnt teach that the government should support anyone. the Bible teaches that if someone wont provide for his own household he is worse than an infidel and has denied the faith.The Lord promoted personal charity and benevolence the BIble also says that the Lord loves a cheerful giver.That is all about personal responsibility and choosing to share, not that a gov’t should compell people to do so.There is also a reference to Jesus paying taxes,thus submitting to a law of the land.
God’s word tells us to obey the law of the land (only exception is when doing so is in direct conflict with God’s teaching),however, it stops far short of writing our laws for our countries.
Glenn Beck has always promoted belief in God(and his son),he has always been outspoken about a personal responsibility people have to care for one another and be generous and benevolent. I have yet to hear him say anything that is in anyway anti christian, or hateful to Jesus!
Agreeing with someone or not agreeing with someone,does not make it ok to twist their words against them.

denjudge @ 162.4~

You are welcome, but, rest assured, I would do it for anyone in similar circumstances, so don’t get a big head over it

I DO think it might be easier for you in these exchange forums if you would minimize, if not almost eliminate, certain classes of words, but you are the charter of your course and the seas you are willing to face. In my view, few people ARE such thngs as “loons”, but an impressively large percentage of people ACT LIKE “loons”. To say they ARE loons both demeans their human self (instead of focusing on their actions, such as speaking the words that they do) and it also suggests that they are condemned to forever act like loons (which would mean it is impossible for our society to become more healthy — and I assume you are not an advocate of retaining the status quo. Please tell me that is correct.) As an example of how words can keep people in boxes, consider the opening line of any self-introduction at any NA meeting: “Hi, I’m so-and-so, and I am an addict.” Not a recovering addict, not a former addict, not a current addict struggling with it in an effort to change that, not someone who can exhibit and has exhibited addictive behaviors, but one doomed to be an addict for the rest of my life. While it may be true for some or many, can it really be true for all? And how is one to find out if one is going to continually hear oneself say one IS a behavior?

(If you were one of the kinds of posters on here that give you and I grief, I would expect you to demand my credentiuals to opine on such psychological aspects, but I assume you will be able to judge from my delivery and how my notions juxtapose with your own experiences in retro- and pro-spect as to whether I may speak from adequate experience and analytical efficay or not.)

btw, I actually assumed that you had watched Beck for longer than a few minutes, although not the particular time that you had written about here recently. Orators like Beck are not rich from it for nothing — their style is seductive, even when its exaggerated flambouyancies offend. Sports are ot the only opiate of the masses, and opiates work because all humans have a dopamine reward system in their brains that is coonnected to their hormonal system, and many things can trigger that response system, not just literal “opiates”, but figurative ones as well.

Are there are any blacks, Jews or Catholics posting?

Black Churches, Jewish Synagogues and Catholic Churches are always – long before Karl Marx wore diapers and Hitler’s great, great grandparents were born were preaching social justice.

Social Democrats and, the much more conservative American counterpart, mostly gained our inspiration from religion and, as strong believers in Democracy and despise totalitarianism.

Progressives ALWAYS despise totalitarianism. If you don’t despise totalitarianism, you are not a progressive nor a Social Democrat.

If you are all white non-Latino protestants (which means all Christian faiths other than Catholic or Orthodox by most definitions including the one I am using) we have an extremely skewed segment of society here.

You, also, completely clog my inbox with a very right wing view of Christianity very similar to the Reich’s Church created by Hitler when he was in power.

Hitler despised mercy as a weakness.

So did the Reich’s Church he created.

If it involves taxes, most of you despise mercy.

Don’t forget, if you ever learned it, about the so-called Great Patriotic War of the Soviet Union. It was when Hitler and Stalin faced each other in what we call World War II.

Four out of five German soldiers were sent to fight Communism and only one in five were in the West to fight against democracy.

Half of you posters scare me.
The other half of you defending Beck sound very confused.

I find almost all of your posts well-worth reading. Educational and/or concise articulations of things I would struggle to say in more words, etc.

It troubles me that your last two sentences are reactions I share.

(I, too, despise taxes, but not for the reasons that I hear most on this blog who object to them — I object to them not in principle but for all the places a huge portion of them go that are not truly to promote the general welfare, but instead the” powerful-over” and other selfishness.)

jamdmjsmom,
If “Agreeing with someone or not agreeing with someone,does not make it ok to twist their words against them” then will you criticize Glenn Beck for doing this exact thing?

Beck’s entire shtick is finding a sliver of truth or a comment by some person he disagrees with, and twisting it till it no longer resembles anything close to the truth. As I have posted before, the 9th commandment states that one should not “bear false witness” against one’s neighbor.

Beck’s words may suggest or promote belief in God, and I have no reason to doubt his belief. But Beck is a hypocrite because in one sentence he professes his belief and in the next sentence makes a mockery of God’s commandment(s)

What is Beck’s problem with Matthew 25:45? He is guilty of what he accuses others of–manipulating context to suit his ideology.

The concept of social justice and caring about ‘the least of these’ is so deeply tied to churches they receive a tax exemption largely because of it. If they are not providing services to the community, they should not get an exemption. One way to make up the budget deficit, I guess.

There are lots of Randians on this forum, apparently. They must not be aware that this hateful woman chose a serial killer as the model for her hero, John Galt. And not just any serial killer; one who murdered and skinned a 12-year-old child. Rand admired the fact that he didn’t let something as unproductive as empathy get in the way of accomplishing his goals. That’s some idol you’ve got there.

Whatever happened to civil people in the United States of America? What I view and read is supposed to come under “freedom” and it appears that if one wants to express freely what they think and feel, it now is just cause for war amongst Americans.
What a pleasure it should be for anyone to pick up a paper and read news that shows all people’s views which would represent freedom of speech for all. It is not pleasurable to read the hateful thoughts of so many Americans, I certainly hope they are Americans, who write nasty thoughts in a newspaper! When did it become ok to wring out other people’s dirty laundry?
We are becoming if not there already, people who live beneath our abilities. We are becoming lazy, nasty, and downright ugly citizens in our own Country. We belittle America, We compare Her with other Countries and show all her faults. In fairness, I want to hear from the same folks all about all the faults of all the countries they compare America too. All of them!
No country is greater than another, but a citizen of their own country should believe that the country they live in as a citizen is the greater country to live in. That their country offers possibilities that other countries have never offered. That other countries are just entering the twenty first century and realizing they must make offers to keep their citizens home. I am a peacemaker. To me that means while being able to listen to both sides of any Truthfulness in what they are saying, there also lies some unTruthfulness. Sorting out both sides means everyone leaves the table satisfied that they were heard. That is all. Debate is over. We heard you, we heard them, and now let all of us decide what we heard. Too many people are trying to say they know what was meant when someone expresses an opinion. Far too much of that is going on. What you hear is what you hear. Try not to decipher another person’s words such as is done with every book including the Bible. We don’t live in each others minds nor hearts so why try? I firmly believe God has been thrown under the bus. I wait patiently as I as sure He does, for citizens of America to find Him and ask Him to save all of us from the doom of exaggeraton that is going on. His Words can, when used properly, calm our inner selves and quiet our minds. Like anyone else, knowing the whole truth and not just one-sided truth makes us all better citizens. So listen and read all sides, ask yourselves what would Jesus think? and then before lashing out at each other, take the time to truly see there is always two sides to everything. Doing that would mean you truly do care about your fellow man/woman. We seem to be fighting a war amongst our family and friends in the same country we are supposed to love and honor. So many opposed to war outside this country, have no problem or issue starting a war here between fellow Americans. Words are powerful and can kill, bullets certainly can kill, and citizens bullying each other through words or bullets is a dangerous practice and needs to stop.

jtmavs,
In your post you state: “The idea behind social and economic justice is to provide equal rights and money to everyone.”

While I agree with you about the ‘equal rights’, and see that that in included in the NCC Social Creed for the 21st Century I have to disagree with the rest of your post.

A couple of questions:
How does the outcome and path to equal rights fall in line with Communism and Nazism? Doesn’t our own Declaration of Independence state that all men are created equal and are endowed by their by unalienable rights? If men are created equal rights, why should they not have equal rights?

Where in the NCC Social Creed for the 21st Century does it talk about ‘equal money’, or what in the term ‘economic justice’ infers economic equality?

I truly wish that I had the time to carefully read and digest and opine on everthing that every American writes or says, but, alas, I do not. A version of that applies to reading your post., So please do not assume that I found nothing in it that I agree with, because I did find things in it I agree with.

I want to take a momenrt, though, to respond to one thing in it that gave me pause: “a citizen of their own country should believe that the country they live in as a citizen is the greater country to live in.”

Of course I know not what you were thinking when you typed that, so all I can do is type what reading those words made me think:

It made me think that it is perfectly OK for a citizen of a country to NOT see that country as a better country to live in than another. It made me think that there can be many reasons why a person would live in a particular country and not another. It made me picture a starving citizen of a country in which their particular ethnic group was being targeted for extermination by another ethinc group and yet they were either too poor or too fond of where they were born or just too attached to its familiarity that they would not just pick up and move to another country.

It also made me think of a citizen of a country looking at another country and seeing examples of things that one suspects would make weakensses in one’s own country be less weak and an even better palce to live, and then, because of one’s love for one’s country, pointing that out and trying to get one’s fellow citizens to work together to make such changes. When one has a sick child and one becomes aware of some medicine or therapy that helps alleviate such sickness, does not one seek such medicine or therapy for one’s child? (Even Christan Scientists seek spiritual therapy in such cases)

People misunderstand the term “social justice” and “economic justice”. When people hear or see these terms the focus on the word justice instead of the entire phrase. The idea behind social and economic justice is to provide equal rights and money to everyone. On the surface this sounds like a productive idea, but the outcome and path to it fall in line with Communism and Nazism. The outcome is a country that is ruled by either a strong dictator or an extremely strong central government, which can both be thrown into the category of a police state. This is both Communism and Nazism. To reach this social and economic justice the government uses the concept of human rights and equal rights and twists it. They seek to redistribute property by taking it from the rich and dividing it among the poor, they institute progressive taxes, change the distribution of income, create a social welfare (health care) system for all, they work hard to villainize major corporations and take them over in the name of the people and economy, and so on. All this is done so that more power can be gained by the government. The Ideas behind Communism and Nazism are the same, and here are some: the seek to provide work for all (not the environment in which all have the opportunity to find work on their own), nationalize big businesses, and implement land reforms. Beck is right in that we should “run as fast as you can” from any church that preached “social or economic justice”. The NCC should agree, but instead they promote a social agenda.

Go to this link: http://www.ncccusa.org/news/ga2007.socialcreed.html

Or seek out the NCC Social Creed for the 21st Century. You will see in their list of objectives a strong relation to what is found in Communism, Nazism, Socialism, and Progressivism.

jtmavs,
In your post you state: “The idea behind social and economic justice is to provide equal rights and money to everyone.”

While I agree with you about the ‘equal rights’, and see that that in included in the NCC Social Creed for the 21st Century I have to disagree with the rest of your post.

A couple of questions:
How does the outcome and path to equal rights fall in line with Communism and Nazism? Doesn’t our own Declaration of Independence state that all men are created equal and are endowed by their by unalienable rights? If men are created equal rights, why should they not have equal rights?

Where in the NCC Social Creed for the 21st Century does it talk about ‘equal money’, or what in the term ‘economic justice’ infers economic equality?

Wow, for being a “loon” Glenn Beck sure has you naysayers beating a dead horse.
Why waste your time? Some of you are “wasting” a lot of time on someone so wrong and insignificant….

Fact: Glenn Beck does not hate Jesus.
Fact: Glenn Beck researches his argument
Fact: Glenn Beck welcomes your argument, if you have the balls.
Fact: Charity comes from the individual. Charity is voluntary, not dictated. Once it is dictated, it is welfare, not charity.
Fact: Glenn Beck is one of the loudest voices for Americans and our Constitution.
Fact: Glenn Beck and Fox’s ratings go up and up everyday.
hmmm could that be that more people understand and agree with Glenn Beck, than don’t? Yup.

If you believe in a democratic/representative government, you live in the right place, if you don’t, it’s no wonder you can’t understand, comprehend or agree with anything Glenn Beck says. There’s the door….

Most especially, to Mycophile,

Re: the SCOTUS ruling re: “corporate free speech”, what it boils down to is a very simple fact: corporations are legal constructs representing a business entity, licensed by the government, created for the sole purpose of facilitating the operation of a business, or the provision of a paid-for service.

Corporations are not clubs, interest groups, PACs, unions, or in any other way representative of any membership, because there are no members, only employees – and what is good for the corporation is not good necessarily, or at all automatically, for most of the employees, because profits are maximized in large part when employee wages and benefits are minimized.

For that reason, it’s inaccurate and simplistic to claim that a corporation is “the same” as a group formed for the specific purpose of representing a specific set of shared interests. Additionally, corporations are permitted to do things that not only minimize the benefit to most employees, but also, can minimize an individual’s chances of obtaining employment elsewhere should that employee quit or be laid off/fired. This last point is especially true when the free market is limited by government policies which allow, through either lack of laws or non-enforcement of existing laws, the formation of conglomerations that in turn lead to oligopoly or monopoly in a given industry.

The SCOTUS ruling also erodes the concept of a free market by inherently favoring political spending by the largest corporations, which in turn benefits politicians who favor (and benefit from) huge oligopolies/monopolies. The resulting system integrates and normalizes a disparity of representation based upon spending ability, and therefore institutionalizes the stifling of those who have less money to spend, namely, not only the vast majority of the citizenry, but also, the small businesses and the entrepreneurs who would benefit from a true free market. In this way, the SCOTUS has participated in the erosion and eventual destruction of a free market as surely as would the most extreme Maoist.

As a tangential aside, I also find it interesting that the vast majority of people who say they take the phrase “endowed by their Creator”, when speaking about inalienable human rights, have no qualms about, or problem with, the fact taht, by equating a corporation to an individual, one also equates the Creator of living, breathing individuals and that which licenses and thus creates, in a very real sense, the corporations, i.e., the government. This implied equating utterly deflates the argument that “socialists” supposedly “worshipping” the government.

mycophile,

You mistakenly put your last entry beneath mine.

I never said that I despised taxes. It’s just something which needs to be done. It’s just another bill to pay, the admission ticket to be an American and to be in your particular city or town and state.

I’ll take your compliment part if you would like.

mikesugg,

Personal responsibility means that one accepts the consequences of one’s decisions.

If a man with a drinking problem says, “I had a fight with my wife and had to go out and drink.” is a person not taking personal responsibility since having an argument with one’s spouse does not make bottles of alcoholic beverages come running down the street on their own power and jump down your throat.

Most of us would never want to drink after an argument.

If, however, a person gets hired for a job, does the job well and the company lays him off due to budget cuts or that the owners of the company decided to make a product people do not want, this is unrelated to that concept since the decisions made were not the worker’s to pick his own job for budget cuts or to choose which good or service the company ventures into.

If that person searches online, newspapers, canvasses friends and relatives for leads and can not get an interview, that is not personal responsibility because those are the appropriate things to do when unemployed.

If one gets an interview is well prepared for it but has fewer credentials than the person they decide to hire, that is not personal responsibility since being well prepared for an interview is the right thing to do.

If one has a debilitating illness like very bad arthritis
and can no longer work, that is not personal responsibility since one’s decisions do not cause arthritis..

If one’s father is unable to find work and he wants to attend college, that is not personal responsibility for the potential student since the student can not decide to do something to make his father’s credentials more marketable so that he can get some of the tuition paid by his father.

If one votes for some of these right wingers like they did in 2000 and 2008 and the economy falls apart, then that is a time when those who supported him should take personal responsibility and not vote for anybody who wants to deregulate banking to the point where it will bring down our entire economy again.

Oh, I forgot, Republicans do not take personal responsibility for electing the people let the banks ruin themselves and our economy as well as, by attacking the wrong country drove us trillions of dollars into debt and made us far less popular worldwide.

Personal responsibility doesn’t apply to Republicans, it applies to the sick, the unemployed and everybody else.

LIKE 42 MILLION AMERICANS SINCE 1970, I LEFT THE ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION BECAUSE OF THE LEFTIST DRIVEL THAT BEGAN TO BE SPEWED FROM THE PULPIT IN THE 1970′s. ROMAN CATHOLIC LEADERSHIP IS GUYS WITHOUT WIVES AND CHILDREN AND WITHOUT JOBS AND MORTGAGES. THEY ARE FUNDAMENTALLY OUT OF TOUCH. WHEN I WAS A KID, THE PRIEST KNEW THIS AND KEPT QUIET ABOUT POLITICS.

patrick sartor @ 180.2~

I did not err in the placement. The compliments wer for you. My err (made with its risk recognizd) was in not making it clear the the word “too”, did not reference you. but instead those you had refered to that despise taxes. Considering myself one who despises taxes yet value mercy, I figured I would just share an insight into my tax despisement thing..

Taxes are to a country what tuition is to a college, what a fare is to a taxi ride, what an admission ticket is to a movie theater, what bill is to having internet service.

Sure, we all would rather get everything for cheaper or for free.

In my last two sentences, I pointed out that the actual Nazis began not by preaching brotherly love as the communists, religious groups, social democrats and liberals do, but preached anger at those who they saw as leaches taking up as much of the German economy from good Germans as possible.

The first ones in concentration camps were the social democratic and liberal members of parliment.

The first ones executed were the handicapped.

Soon after that Jews were being removed from civil service jobs and teaching positions in all schools.

Italy, Spain and Portugal, also, were fascist countries which did not persecute Jews. (Franco, fascist leader of Spain is believed to have had a Jewish grandparents and was, therefore, not eager to cooperate with Hitler outside of assisting him with the Blue Division in fighting the communists in the Soviet Union).

Conservatives very often make the “slipper slope” argument.

Interestingly enough, if you followed it’s conclusion with things like health care, our “slippery slope” would lead us to a high tax in exchange for high benefit system as they have in market driven but more progressive countries in Western Europe and Canada.

The slipper slope for hating to pay for the poor, if this is a slippery slope, would be towards fascism.

Do I believe you are a fascist?

No.

Do I believe that you will become a fascist?

Hopefully and probably not.

Do I believe that if a few generations of hating the poor go on that we will have a fascist movement threatening democracy many years from now?

Yes.

It is possible that such a fascist movement in America will not be, as Hitler was, racially or ethnically based.

I have no way of knowing that.

I thought the Caps were the hockey team in DC.

patricksartor, In your last post, you concluded “Do I believe that if a few generations of hating the poor go on that we will have a fascist movement threatening democracy many years from now? Yes.”

You also state “Taxes are to a country what tuition is to a college, what a fare is to a taxi ride, what an admission ticket is to a movie theater, what bill is to having internet service.”

I think most conservatives have never said we should not pay taxes. And, most conservatives don’t “hate the poor”. Both are ridiculous. Nevertheless, I posit that most conservatives say the taxes should be low. The question is not how much should we pay; the question is where should those taxes be used?
We live in a country whose laws are based on the Constitution. The founders all agreed that there should be strict limits on what federal government should do. The Constitution is mostly a document that says you can do ONLY this, this, and this. All else should be done by the States or the People themselves. It wasn’t until FDR that we actually began to allow the federal government to do things for other people.

None of us “hate” the poor. Trust me. I struggle to pay every bill that I have. I never resent paying taxes, but if those taxes are going to cover things that each individual should do for himself, then get the government, especially the federal government out of it.

As a personal example. I work full time. I have insurance, but I also have a very, very tight budget. (much because of my own foolish use of investments). When I or my family get sick, I think very hard about going to the doctor. Why? 1) I find I get well just about as fast or faster than if I take the drugs that I will inevitably be prescribed by the doctor. and 2) Because I have a co-pay that bites my budget. Yes. It is financially painful each time–even with insurance. The point is that I choose to go or not to go. According to the government, I would probably be considered poor. No. I am not. I just don’t have everything the Joneses (literally next door) have. But don’t pay my way. And definitely don’t let the Joneses pay for my medical bills.

BTW, I also donate 10% of my salary every pay period to charitable groups, and we never pass a Salvation Army bill ringer without dropping some dollar bill. THAT is what we should be doing. We are not facists if we expect people to pay their way. It’s not easy. Life isn’t easy. But we don’t “hate the poor.”

So to return to the original comment. Taxes are high because they are increasingly used where they shouldn’t be used–where they are taking the responsibility from an individual.

A guide to the center left and left;

If somebody is preaching compassion for the poor and handing out tasteless little wafers based upon a bad version matzo, it is a Christrian.

If somebody is preaching compassion for the poor and handing out long, boring books, he is a social democrat or progressive.

If somebody is preaching compassion for the poor and handing out machine guns and hand grenades, that would be a communist.

Fascism is much more insidious than anything on the left, but, one thing they DO NOT preach is compassion for the poor.

…and now nearing 600.

…nearing 600.

I’m just relieved Rush no longer has his teevee show.

TIME’s parent company really makes money from the cable biz. The magazine is secondary so they can wait out the recessionary media ad storm if they wish.

…and the tax rates here used to be waaaaay higher, so remember it has been a lot worse.

Amy Sullivan hits 600 now. Joe Klein, eat your heart out.

But, both in the Great Depression and in this great depression, it was capitalism, the banks and corporations that bankrupted the country. The people who brokered all those home loans made a fortune, the people who bankrupted companies got 50 million dollar bonuses. The dirt poor workers get laid off. People fight about welfare and unemployment, the problem is both greed in our current capitalist system and welfare and illegal immigration. Ye s, the social programs and political correctness has bankrupted some states, Califorinia and New York for example. And, this depression we have now is due to Wall Street’s greed. Yes, we need to get people off of welfare and working, paying taxes, and yes, we need unions and a living minimum wage. The reason the few wealthest people pay most of the taxes is because they own 90 percent of the money in this country. If they paid people enough money to be able to buy a home and have a car, more people would be paying more taxes. If the 1 percent want all the money, of couse they are going to pay most of the taxes.

Beck is right about the social programs, but, he neglects the other side, capitalist greed just tanked our banks and we get to bail the banks out. Obama is like Jimmy Carter. He will be gone in two years, will not be reelected. We all know no one wants communism. Beck is turning religious people against non-religious people, turning conservative people against liberals, saying there is an evil enemy. This is not constructive. People are mad because our government forced the banks to give out home loans to people who could not pay for them, and Wall Street was more than happy to sell them, and the mortage brokers were more than happy to make their commissions. Beck needs to move on to open discussions about how to deal with the needs for Medical and Social Security and how to solve the 85 trillion in unfunded liabilities of those two programs, because his followers want those huge social programs. It’s time to let go of the evil socialist commies are doing it to us and deal with the capitalist greed end of the problem. Both sides need to work together to solve all of these problems in my opinion.

Nice to see so many positive and interesting comments from other people in here yesterday and today. I commend the person who was in the Mormon cult for telling us more about it. I would encourage anyone to read the chapter about that religion in Christoper Hitchen’s book “God is Not Great.” It explains how that religion was started and what it is based on. Great read. Hope everyone has a good evening. Peace.

Hit 600.

Mackley.

First, I was referring to mycophile who said that he despised paying taxes.

Second, check out what the government calls “poor”

Persons in Family Unit
48 Contiguous States and D.C. Alaska Hawaii
1 $10,830 $13,530 $12,460
2 $14,570 $18,210 $16,760
3 $18,310 $22,890 $21,060
4 $22,050 $27,570 $25,360
5 $25,790 $32,250 $29,660
6 $29,530 $36,930 $33,960
7 $33,270 $41,610 $38,260
8 $37,010 $46,290 $42,560
For each additional person, add $3,740 $4,680 $4,300

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States#Recent_poverty_rate_and_guidelines.

I’ll take your word for it that you, after a long day of work, have an income extremely few would envy, but, “poor” is a very stingy standard set by economists and the federal government.

Third, for the disabled,the process for getting government relief is such a stingy standard that there is an industry of attorneys (clearly not money driven ones if they are going to paid in a portion of a welfare check) who help people who meet the standard but do not get the assistance they deserve.

Fourth, people can and do negotiate the prices of things like cars and homes. When one votes, an aspect of that vote is picking the candidate who will get you what you perceive to be the fairest deal for your income. Then, it is like a car payment or a mortgage payment. You have to deal with what happens.

Fifth, pre-FDR states and cities had welfare programs, but, since poverty is not at all evenly distributed, these cities, towns and even states were, often over burdened.

Sixth, if you go before there was any assistance to those who were unable to earn as it was in the 1880s and earlier, cities were filled with people who stole for food and shelter.

Today in New York the crime rate is the lowest it has been since statistics began and the concept of stealing in order to get food is laughable.

I am not going to say that our government is anywhere near perfect in how it distributes relief to the poor and disabled. If it can be made more efficient without depriving those in need, I can safely say that nobody who is at all progressive would oppose it.

However, there has been a push against care for the poor in conservative rhetoric. Newt Gingrich forced through a part of welfare reform which banned all people born outside of the United States from getting food stamps.

What if you were born somewhere else, worked you butt off and became ill?

Too bad according to the conservatives who pushed that through.

That would be a hatred for poor born outside of the United States, even if they moved here as infants.

Joan,

You may not have known anybody who receives any form of government assistance other than unemployment.

As I said below, the hurdles needed in order for people to get government assistance is very high.

There are, basically, two groups:

Parent who ARE working full time and can not pay the bills unless they slept on the sidewalk.

People with very severe physical, mental or psychological handicaps.

The second group will most likely need some assistance for their entire life.

The first will, very gladly move up and out when they meet the qualifications for better work or if a job they are qualified for pays well enough for them to not need assistance.

It is a stingy system, not a generous one.

I am not saying that we should give away money to healthy people or people who are qualified for enough money to take care of their families minimally, but, it is not a road easier than working since I have known people who were living through that. (No, not me – I am healthy and, for the indefinite future, childless and, therefore, not “poor”).

The ONLY reason African-Americans believe in the Christian religion is because they were brought here as slaves for capitalist profit and eventually forgot their own religions. The ONLY reason Mexican people believe in the Catholic religion is because Spain conquered Mexico and they stopped believing in their sun god and human sacrifice. About 30 percent of the world is Christian. Beck has to tell me why all the other religions in this world are wrong and his religion is the correct one. And, that alone, saying 70 percent of the people on this planet believe in the wrong religion tells all of us how crazy believing in any religion is, never mind the insanity that religion is going to solve the problems in this country and the idea that people are so small, so evil, so pathetic that they cannot behave and be kind without a religion. Maybe Beck thinks he is that small, but I’m not buying it.

Beck has done a great thing to stir the American public and get people involved in the political process. His Tea Party movement has ALL of the politicans scared, that is fantastic. He’s made people aware of our huge debt, of the unfunded liabilities in our entitlement programs. He writes good books that are very funny. I don’t dislike him, I want him to be right, to stay on point, to be able to keep his movement going. But, he has to tackle capitalism the same way he has tackled socialism and bring both sides of the political scale into discussion. That is the only way he can keep the great work he’s done going. Otherwise it will fade away in religious talk and us against them thinking. He turned a corner about three weeks ago where he stopped making sense. I hope people will continue to be politically involved even if Beck’s show goes off the air. He’s lost so many sponsors and the more people he insults and the more religious and one sided he gets, the worse the situation is getting.

You notice how most people stop going to church when they get older? If there was a god that answered people’s prayers and helped them, billions of people would be piling into churches all over the world. It’s a custom, we indoctrinate our children into our religions and as we get older we lose interest in it because it doesn’t work. One problem with the Catholic religion is they don’t let priests get married and they are never supposed to have sex. Men biologically think about sex about every five minutes, they can’t help it. The Catholic church made men non-sexual, which does not work, eventually it turned into the priests committing crimes, molesting children. What was supposed to be about love of god turned into sickness, abuse of children.

Patrick,

First, I recognize the what the government calls poor. That is not what this healthcare bill is about. There are several programs to cover that percentage that you discussed. This healthcare program is designed to address everyone else.

You stated “Third, for the disabled,the process for getting government relief is such a stingy standard that there is an industry of attorneys (clearly not money driven ones if they are going to paid in a portion of a welfare check) who help people who meet the standard but do not get the assistance they deserve.”

God forbid that we get the same type of beaurocracy that medicaid entails. It is inevitable if we accept a new government program.

http://www.cms.hhs.gov/medicaideligibility/

“Fourth, people can and do negotiate the prices of things like cars and homes. When one votes, an aspect of that vote is picking the candidate who will get you what you perceive to be the fairest deal for your income. Then, it is like a car payment or a mortgage payment. You have to deal with what happens.”

Yep. We are getting what we paid for. Many of us intend to buy a new “car” in November.

“pre-FDR states and cities had welfare programs, but, since poverty is not at all evenly distributed, these cities, towns and even states were, often over burdened.”

But this is the responsibility of the States. Some states will get it right. Others will not. The founders understood that when they created this Democratic Republic. Each state can learn from others.

Yes, the people stealing food was a problem throughout history, but we would debate back and forth whether that came because we have higher taxes for social programs or whether that came because the increase in technology from the boom starting roughly 1830 and accelerated through the Industrial revolution and into the Information age. This gave the ability for companies to provide jobs to a wider group of people. Certainly we had abuse and sweat shops. We need to be careful to keep that from happening through careful regulation, but the point is that money began to become easier to earn, thereby allowing more people to afford better for themselves.

As for people born outside the US. I understand that as well. My wife is a naturalized citizen. She went through the correct doors. She worked her tail off and paid her own health care, and she succeeded. If you open everything free, the weak will certainly come piling across the borders. Just ask Texas, Arizona, California. No. The answer is to provide better methods of allowing foreigners in . . . but they need to pay their way just like the people born here.

There is no hatred for the poor outside the U.S. Each country has its own responsibilities. Look where the most serious poverty comes from. From countries where they have dictators or forceful, centralized, national government.

Patrick, you continue to use the word “hate”. It is not hate. It really isn’t. But you also can’t assume that our people are responsible to pay for everyone else’s food or medicine. If so, why isn’t their own country the blame? Why must we be blamed?

Patrick,

I agree with you. I used to live in San Francisco, was born and raised there. People are happy there because they work, there are lots of jobs, a living minimum wage, lots of industry, tourism, a large financial district, many people are educated. I have found that people are happy and kind to one another when they can make a good living and live in a clean, safe place where they can be involved in politics and be part of a community. Now I live in a town that was just named one of the ten worst in the country, in inland California. There have been no jobs up here apparently since the 1970s, grown men live on SSI and welfare and have no cars, they are darn glad to get the little money and to have medical care and prescription drug coverage. Without the government paying most folks up here to live, everyone would be dead. It’s a ghost town, people are not nice, they are not happy. Short of unions coming up here, jobs coming up here, a living wage being instituted, this place is beyond finished. No one is going to help these people though charity. It’s a desperate situation. When I came here I kept thinking, the state is going to go bankrupt. All these people are taking the government for millions on top of millions of dollars. Now, the state IS bankrupt. It brings up so many issues Beck blows off, there are too many people now, capitalism isn’t working up here, not one bit. There’s a few people working in fast food restaurants or for UPS, a few service jobs. About 2 in ten people work. What can they do? They resign themselves to it, they buy second hand clothes when they can even afford that, go to the Dollar Store, go without a car. These rich talking heads and Hollywood people have no clue how millions of people in this country live. There is town after town down the road from here with populations of over one million people each where there are no jobs. I’ve lived on both sides of the fence, made good money in San Francisco and lived around smart nice people, and I’ve lived in poverty with uneducated, angry, mean people. Education is key. No god and no charity is going to help these people. This is where I like some of Obama’s ideas, he’s thinking about people in places like this, these welfare towns.

Another thing the conservatives don’t get is San Francisco is one of the best places to live. They have never lived there, and they think everyone there is some liberal nut. I’m a Republican, and there’s a big Libertarian movement in San Francisco. They think these welfare towns are where the real people are. People in welfare towns are lost and miserable and they are the ones who are living off of the government and who bankrupt the states.

is Glenn Beck a dead horse? I certainly don’t wish him any ill will, but I would love to see that day when he and his type of media manipulation are a dead horse.

your post is a perfect illustration of why many people find Beck dangerous: because there are so many people who believe that anything he says is the truth, and his style of charismatic hate mongering has been seen in the world before, often with disastrous consequences.

Fact: Glenn Beck does not hate Jesus, but he does spend several hours every day breaking one or more of God’s commandments.
Fact: Glenn Beck researches his argument, then twists and distorts facts to attack people he disagrees with.
Fact: Glenn Beck welcomes your argument, if you have the balls, unless you’re Jim Wallis and have a legitimate disagreement with him, then he just calls names and issues vague threats.
Fact: Charity comes from the individual. Charity is voluntary, not dictated. Once it is dictated, it is welfare, not charity. Agreed but I’m not sure what you’re point is.
Fact: Glenn Beck is one of the loudest voices for Americans and our Constitution, which he almost always distorts and /or interprets incorrectly.
Fact: Glenn Beck and Fox’s ratings go up and up everyday.
because, if nothing else, he is a skilled showman who realizes that hate and anger are powerful emotions and fomenting these in an audience wiling to listen to his twisted logic has made him a millionaire many times over

I do believe in a democratic/representative government, and what I can’t understand, comprehend or agree with is Glenn Beck and other conservatives like him who are trying to subvert the will of the people who, since 2006, have elected a Democratic president and significant Democratic majorities in both houses of congress. The Republicans/conservatives are acting like spoiled children who didn’t get there way so now they’re going to take their ball and leave, and in Glenn Beck’s case, cry all the way home.

Hi Anne,

I agree with you. I enjoyed reading your post. I get scared when people start all saying the same thing, when one person tells them what to think. I saw a lot of people saying such bad things about Obama and people saying they are religious, then saying the other side is evil, all bad. I learned in the past two days that Glenn Beck appeals to religious people who mostly are not educated and felt left out by society somehow, and he’s got them mad and full of hate towards the left, viewing the answer to our country’s problems as hate those evil commies and hate Obama and this is the answer. The Progressives have some good ideas, when Beck talks about some of the things they are trying to do, I think, oh, that’s good, that will help all of us. I hate this health care bill, I think it is just to gut Medicare and give the illegals free health care for the Dems to get 20 million more democratic voters, both parties are after the Hispanic vote big time because they are so far undecided. I don’t like the Dems not telling us they are basically doing away with Medicare. I wrote to Nancy Pelosi, Diane Feinstein, my Congressman up here, Dick Morris, and I went into political chat boards and told people that bill will cut 500 billion from Medicare, got the word out. I don’t like it one bit. But, like I say, I like other things the left wants to do. I like some of the ideas from both sides. I like the Republicans idea to privatize Medicare a lot. So, I agree with you, both sides should sit down together and figure out what things will really help the country, and we shouldn’t be accusing one side or the other of being evil and all bad.

Joan,

First, although relatively minor, as an atheist who was raised Catholic and, even more so, as a heterosexual man, I can tell you that the cause and effect of the priesthood backwards in one – just one – respect. Gay men and child molesters are drawn to hide in the Priesthood. The parish my parents went to had two gay priests. One was found out to have a lifelong boyfriend and another I heard about was murdered in an argument with a gay prostitute in the 1970s. Another, obviously, heterosexual priest vanished because he fell in love with a woman and ended up a married ex-priest. Men can not change to find children sexy. It is impossible. But child molesters love trusted positions and, better yet, one that does not ask why he is not in bed with a woman. None I had ever seen, but, 3% of priests are child molesters according to recent statistics.

In the end, trusted representatives of god, instead, raping children is the same end result and would not occur if priest were allowed to marry since his wife would be likely to find out what he is doing.

Second, I could not agree with you more about education.

Third, I do not believe Glenn Beck is a reasonable vehicle for communicating very much. I saw him once ranting and raving and quoting Thomas Jefferson about an increase in the money supply. I had taken classes on monetary economics and know that he was talking out of that least pleasant orifice.

My sister lived in SF for a few years but I never got out there myself. I heard many good things about SF.

of the 42 million americans who have left the catholic church, i’m sure not all have done so for the same reason.
in fact, i’m sure that there are a wide variety of reasons. I would be interested to see your data showing that 42 million have left the religion because of the leftist drivel. It’s only my opinion but I think a lot have left because they see the church as too conservative with respect to many things, including, but not limited to: women in the clergy, birth control, allowing priests to marry, acceptance of homosexuals, …
Oh, yeah – then there’s that whole covering up for priests who sexually abuse children thing.

Derek,

You make some lucid points, but when you group all believers in Jesus Christ as ‘Christians’ and then follow that with your blanket statement that ” … they have spent the last few decades getting into bed with the party of hate.” you mar your argument.

I am a Christian, in fact a Mormon, and have not spent any decades getting into bed with any parties of hate. I am an unrepentant [British] ‘small-s’ socialist that has spent his time denouncing haters in whatever guise they present themselves.

It is essential that if you are going to fight an enemy that you learn to properly identify who they are and not simply fire at anything that moves.

Ronnie

Mackley,

When it comes to our founding fathers and health care reform, think of two things to put that in a historical context:

1) In 1789 when you were ill you could go to a doctor or a barber to cut you. With no concept germs they usually did not clean the blade. The concept was to get out “bad blood”. Obviously this had a very low success rate. So, no sane person would have recommended that to be a public service and I do not believe I would have ever gone to a doctor even if were totally free if that was just about all he could do for me.

2) Our founding fathers created a federal system to deliver packages. That was the post office. Since most of agree that for the well being of our nation getting mail (mostly junk mail today) is much less significant than getting to and from a doctor, it is highly probable that, if there were medicine to be practiced, would have supported health care. However, that is like asking if general Petraeus could have done a better job of fighting off the English than George Washington did. (Patraeus DC? Eisenhower DC?)

3) Let’s say you were never born and your wife became handicapped through no fault of her own. The law as it is would not give her any form of welfare even though, as you said, she worked her butt off. That is not right. I can see if there were a law saying that an immigrant must work for X number of years first so that we know that they came here healthy with the intention of working, but, a lifelong ban on access to food stamps is wrong.

4) Cities and towns compete for wealthy residents with low taxes. Connecticut has a massively large number of commuters since the 1940s to Manhattan due originally to the fact that Connecticut had no income tax. If this is a state by state system for welfare, then every state or city would go as far out of there way as possible to give as little as imaginable to the truly poor and the truly needy. It would be a race to the bottom and, even without this, welfare income is only enviable to the homeless and not even by McDonalds workers (if they have no children and work at McDonalds).As a federal system, states and towns compete by better schools, lower crime rates, etc, etc. There is no disincentive to take care of the truly needy.

5) During the time of our founding fathers, this country (as was the world) was so poor that one could not afford to feed any significant portion of the poor. They just died. We can and, therefore, should continue to help on a national level.

6) All efforts are being made to create the most efficient health care system. What is proposed now is that everybody keeps EXACTLY THE SAME insurance if they have any. Employers will have to pay for the insurance. The self employed with have to either buy health insurance or get a fine. I can give a long explanation as to why that would reduce rates, but, that is about four posts I did earlier. The public option is an OPTION only. If and only if, the employer or self insured person CHOOSES it over private insurance due to it being CHEAPER or providing BETTER services (or both) would they CHOOSE to select it. If it ends up working out poorly, then it will NOT be selected by many and private insurance will continue exactly as they are now.

You unpack your definitions of ‘social’ and ‘economic’ justice but in doing so you do violence to the terms themselves. It were better if you would simply say what you believe these terms mean and then leave the way open for others to unpack them differently.

That exposes you to the risk of having others disagree with you, but when someone holds the opinion that their description is THE ONLY description then you often find something far worse at work than your particular definitions.

How can any kind of ‘justice’ be a bad thing, unless one advocates inequality – and social justice does not define itself as making everyone the same, but in extending opportunity to all to engage in and participate in those things that bring fulfilment to humanity;

1. adequate shelter
2. adequate clothing
3. adequate nutrition
4. freedom within the law
5. protection from hostile forces, human and organic
6. freedom from unnecessary suffering.

I fail to see how any of the above can be considered evil except by special pleading and other forms of intellectual and political dishonesty.

Ronnie

Off topic, but I’ll answer you: I lost faith in the supernatural. Little by little it reminded me of the many other world religions which sounded like absurd superstitions and stupidity and like Santa Clause.

There I was looking upon the faith I had had for twenty six years and seeing it as the same hocus pocus I would have laughed at (but not to their faces) from other non-Christian religions.

Catholic to atheist gradually from the loss of Santa Clause till seventeen years later when it all seemed so clear to me that this whole thing was done by very well intended, kind people but simply no more true than a fat old man coming down my chimney four days after the Winter Solstice to give children toys.

I am not at all what I would call an Evangelical Atheist.

I don’t run up to young hopeful children and tell them that there is no Santa, either.

well, now. I return from being about some business to find a rfew posts quite worthy of enjoinder. Here we have another one from patricksartor that puts some stuff in very repeatable and effective terms

Let’s see, what’s next. More tax talk clarification, and I can’t wait to get to the personal responsinbility thing. It’s one of my favorites!

As a Mormon who has read the Book of Mormon several times, and yet will admit to an imperfect understanding of it, I would agree that the text indicates in many instances that the poor should be provided for–BUT NOT AS A MATTER OF LAW!
And by no means is the Book of Mormon a “tract on social justice.” Phillip Barlow, the supposed expert on Mormonism, might have found a sympathetic ear at the NY Times, but I’m not sure his comments would be so well received in a Mormon Sunday School meeting.
Mormons would clearly recognize the famous Book of Mormon dictum that “mercy cannot rob justice.” In other words, while it is noble to provide for and help the poor, it should not be done without the consent of the people. Beck takes exception to Obama’s and other Progressives’ unilateral overhaul of the government to be a tool to help the disadvantaged–so do I. The gov’t has proven to be inefficient in trying to deliver such “justice” at best, and corrupt at worst.
Most Mormons (a recent Gallup Poll indicates that we lean heavily conservative) believe that local organizations and church groups are better suited to handle charity. In fact, most active Mormons fast monthly, and give the proceeds saved from the meals to their church wards for distribution to the needy. Most of us give a lot more than the few dollars saved in not eating for a day.

So how has Beck mischaracterised the murdering of innocent citizens who were simply pursuing their God given rights by all those systems of government you named. You are only bloviating and have no foundation except for your overly emotional response. The references you cite are about as dependable as the IPCC peer reviews….anybody remember this headline………..2007 U.N. Warming Report Riddled With Errors (AP). So is your’s and myco’s assessment of Beck. Thats okay, you could always cite Ariana Huffington when it comes to Beck. For she is just as much in the dark ages as you are. But I guess I can be in acceptance that you operate on emotion and not intellect. And it would be disingenious to say otherwise. You obviously have something personal that has been aggravated by Beck’s approach and no amount of rational discussion is going to change that,

Your are right, Paul. Gennenne is also right that Jesus didn’t force anyone to be charitable. Yet it ought not to escape the attention of anyone using a distortion of the direct teachings of Jesus that Jesus left no wiggle-room.

He taught [Matt 25], anyone [goats] that fails to provide for the needy, ‘even unto the least of these,’ are guilty of failing to act right towards Jesus.

He taught [Matt 25] that anyone [sheep] that does provide for the needy, ‘even unto the least of these,’ is counted as having been charitable to Christ in his needs.

He also tauth [Matt 25] that the goats go into everlasting darkness, but that the sheep, the ‘blessed of my Father,’ inherit the kingdom of God.

Jesus didn’t make anyone do anything, but taught that there were consequences for failing to care for the needy.

One of the reasons Jesus became unpopular was his direct ministry to social and religious outcasts. This did not sit well with the Lordly Parush, who did him to death by lying through their hypocritical teeth.

Ronnie

patricksartor@180.4 and 180.6~

apparently even those that excel at reading, coalescing, and typing gymnastics can’t always see what must be there. I thnk it is an easy thing to occur in an environment like this where one is following multiple threads with multiple people.

1) It strikes me that you may have interpreted my phrase “despise taxes” as meaning “despise the concept of taxes”. That would not be what I intended it to mean. It is paying the taxes in thios counrty in this day and age because of the reasons I cited.

To very imperfectly take a page from your excellent book:

If I hail a a taxi with writing on its door that sez it will cost me $100 to get to the destination I seek, and I am glad to pay that to to do, and along the way it stops to take on a few other passengers who are crawling in the blizzard outside with tattered clothes, and the cab takes some detours in my route to get them to shelter of his choice, at the end of the ride when I pay my fare I feel quite fine. Sure, even though it took a little more time and I am late for my meeting, mi casa es su casa (did I spell that right?)

If, instead, that taxi stops when a guy gets out of a limo, hands his driver a C-note telling him to take the rest of the day off, then waves another at the taxi, it stops, he gets in the front seat, slips the C-note under the floor mat, the driver asks him what he can do for him, the guy directs him to several locations where, after putting some stuff in the trunk, several of his buddies get in, crowding me against the door which requires me to take off my seat belt in order to not choke myself and I feel compelled to make sure the door is locked so I won’t be pushed out, and then they all get out at a country club, take guns out of the trunk to sawp them for gold and cocaine and drink $100 bottles of wine and receive other services that if I did I would go to jail, and the driver then gets me to my destination after the meeting is over, when I pay my fare I have to think: “Why did I pay the way for those jokers, when they could have given me a ride in their limo for free and not even noticed it?”

It is not how much the admission to the ride was that is the issue — it is what the ride accomplished and what my money paid for, in the above allegory being power-tripping for people who already have more power than I’ll ever have.

2) You must have thought I was referring to a different post of your than the one that ‘”180.1″ would logically infer (in other words, your “180″)

The “your last two sentences” I was referring to were: “Half of you posters scare me.
The other half of you defending Beck sound very confused.” No wonder it was not crystal clear to you that my compliment was directed at you!

Keep up the good work.

littlegreenparrot @ 161.7~

Nice rap on SCOTUS. I concur. Always have, but thanks for taking the opportunity I presented to ‘splain it to anyone who needed to hear it.

I don’t recall ever having typed that corps and orgs are “the same” in this context, but if I did, it was a neural misfire. In my postr immediately presseding (161.6) I did, however, purposefully stay away from differentiating between corps and orgs so as not to give the “conservative” (notice the quotes again because the word is far too imprecise in common political discourse) SCOTUS bloc lovers a distraction from my main point and an excuse to sidestep thinking about it. So I generallized.

Given all the above, I am not sure why your post began with “especially to Mycophile” (and am now curious to know ’cause I appreciate compliments just as much as patricksartor does) but it really is no matter because I say to you good job adding on to discuss the finer points.

littlegreenparrot @ 161.7~

Nice rap on SCOTUS. I concur. Always have, but thanks for taking the opportunity I presented to ‘splain it to anyone who needed to hear it.

I don’t recall ever having typed that corps and orgs are “the same” in this context, but if I did, it was a neural misfire. In my postr immediately presseding (161.6) I did, however, purposefully stay away from differentiating between corps and orgs so as not to give the “conservative” (notice the quotes again because the word is far too imprecise in common political discourse) SCOTUS bloc lovers a distraction from my main point and an excuse to sidestep thinking about it. So I generallized.

Given all the above, I am not sure why your post began with “especially to Mycophile” (and am now curious to know ’cause I appreciate compliments just as much as patricksartor does) but it really is no matter because I say to you good job adding on to discuss the finer points.

Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/14/why-does-glenn-beck-hate-jesus/comment-page-8/#comments#ixzz0iOa5IkWq

whoops, this time I DID post in the wrong place, and so re-posted the above uner 161

Who was Jesus talking to whenever he talked about feeding the hungry and clothing the naked? Was it the Roman government? Was it to Roman senators? Or could it be that Jesus directed his comments to HIS DISCIPLES i.e. the people that would become the church? Jesus wanted to make sure the the poor were taken care of, no question. But his agent of change was the church, his disciples, not the government. He certainly could have targeted the government for taking responsibility for these things if he thought it was the right way to go. He didn’t, did he? So if we take his words seriously, the only way we can be true his message is if we use the agency he directed us to use to do what he called us to do. The church is Jesus’ agent to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, not the government. Let’s get it right.

In addition, Jesus’ mode of operation was to encourage voluntary acts of service to the poor, not forced coercion. How does anyone on the left believe that Jesus wants us to force people to do the right thing, rather than persuade them that giving to the poor is the right way to go. And if the left is going to lecture conservatives to voluntarily give to the poor and the needy, I guess they better step up to the plate and give in equal amounts to conservatives before they start whining, because conservatives outgive liberals in charitable giving every day of the week. Then at least you would have some ground to stand on. Jesus called us to make disciples of all men by convincing them His way is the best way, not by having government come in and force them to give because “the government says so.” That is a childish way to do things, and frankly, isn’t what Jesus taught. If we are going to use Jesus as a source, we better learn how to quote Him accurately.

Sir Luce, Maybe the church should also take over as Jesus’ agent to run the Police & Fire department, build and maintain our roads and bridges, raise armies to defend the homeland ?
.
Why just stop at feeding the hungry and clothe the naked?

When did Jesus address funding Police and Fire departments? I don’t remember him talking to the church about fighting fires or keeping law and order. Therefore, it is not the job of the church to take care of those things. Sounds kind of obvious to me. Jesus was in the business of changing hearts and minds, personal change, so we become better people. He didn’t come to earth to arrest people, nor did he call his followers to do so.

Responding to bmolly: The Declaration of Independence states “that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” Rights can be split into two categories: unalienable (those rights that have been given to us by God) and alienable (those rights that the government gives us) The Declaration declares that all men have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. An example of an alienable right is the government saying that everyone has the right to a job and then attempting to provide one (much like the U.S.S.R did and that worked out well). We have the right to seek employment, not the right of being guaranteed a job. Another example would be the right to equal education for all. We do not have a right to education. What we do have is the right to seek learning, to improve ourselves, and find the best books, teachers, and so on. The government’s job is to create an environment in which we all have an equal opportunity to find employment and to seek education, not guarantee us a job or education. This government intervention into our lives limits ingenuity and progression by not providing any incentive to become better or create better ideas. This is demonstrated by how the U.S.S.R came to a standstill and fell.

(For an example of rights given to the people by the government see the U.S.S.R Constitution of 1964, specifically section 5; for more ideas of this see President Franklin Roosevelt’s Second Bill of Rights)

How does this pursuit of social justice and equal rights fall in line with Nazism and Communism? Both ideologies sought to provide all with equal rights (in a grab for more government control) that the government said that the people have. An example is the government giving all the equal right to wealth. The government achieves this through the redistribution of wealth. This is done by taxing the rich (thus bringing the rich down) and giving government aid to the poor (thus raising the poor up). This would create an entire country of middle class that are borderline poverty. Eventually all would pay the same tax that the rich paid, because all would be equal. In this attempt at executing equal rights, the government has lowered the quality of life, destroyed the rich who invest money in businesses and inventions, and gained control over many by making them reliant on the government. There are other examples, but it would turn this into a huge novel. It boils down to that in providing equal rights, you have to bring down those who have achieved at a very high level. You also destroy the unalienable rights of those that achieve who have the right to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

In an attempt to try and make this a bit shorter compare the NCC’s Social Creed for the 21st Century to Roosevelt Second Bill of Rights and the U.S.S.R. Constitution of 1964. It will not specifically say “social justice” or “equal money”, that is to bold. What does fall under social justice, and is found in the Creed, is seeking:

Equal employment for all
Seeking a large amount of government control
Education for all
Universal health care
Social Security
Taxes that will reduce the gap between rich and poor (remember what was discussed above)
A stronger U.N. (stronger government, more control)
Access for all too healthy food, clean air and water, and responsible land stewardship

there is soon coming an armed civil war in this country.
thank God!

all the above @173 and more~

patricksartor’s 173.4 does a nice job of illustrating the differences between the consequences of one’s own actions and the consequences to one regardless of one’s own actions. But I would add at least this to patricksartor’s definition of personal responsibility:

To me, “personal responsibility” means not only accepting the consequences of one’s own actions, but also (to use word-play) exercising the ability to personally respond to the needs of other-than-ourselves. (personal response ability).

I do not believe “personal responsibility” to be a human philosophical construct — I see it as a part of human biology. Consider this: A long time ago when we were far more frail and weak in relation to the rest of the planet, and long before there was government with cops and emergency services and doctors that took Hippocratic Oaths and well-enough-to-do folks that provided for those servicers to be at-the-ready, and courts or other forms of organized coercion to enforce “obligations” to help people, if it had not been humanly automatic to personally respond to imminent danger to other humans with the personal skills and resources personally possessed, our species would not have survived.

This, I believe, is at the core of how our country has lost a good deal of greatness over time, and I would love to see it back.

Moast people in the USA, it seems, now believe (or at least act as if they believe) that “freedom” means “being able to act from one’s feelings any time, any place, for any duration, and in any manner that one chooses. The only thing which some of those will accept as limits to that kind of freedom is a court deciding that it has been “proven” that a particular choice of such action is unduly harmful to others who have the same “freedom”.

I posit that “freedom” instead means “the right to exercise personal responsibility”. In other words, to decide one’s actions based upon a consideration of their consequences, with as much awareness as one can muster to consider the consequences of action and inaction and thus to bear any of the burdens of those consequences willingly.

Sound hard? Sound like too much responsibility? Then just let Big Brother tell you what to do! Then you can justify holding BB accountable for outcomes you do not like. I have never heard nor read that any of the authors of the DOI or the USC promised us that freedom was going to be easy. It certainly was not for them, now, was it?

Maybe I have disrespected the language by splitting “responsibility” into two words. Maybe the debaters of what “social justice” means will want to tear me apart for such heresy (after all, the Word is cut in stone, right? They have always meant what they meant when they were first written, er, I mean, whichever point in history that the word meant what one person or some people would like it to mean is the “true” meaning, right?). Fine. Make up another word for what I tried to use “personal response ability” to get accross. Then opine about the concept itself as it realtes to “freedom”, and what the cascade of differences would be in this society if people saw their freedom as a responsibility instead of as a constantly-moving balance between impules and legal obligation.

Hey, patricksarton, this looks ripe for doing with the subject of “preaching equal rights and social justice” what you did for “preaching compassion” (@ 186).

Care to take a stab at that? I’d try, but i have yet to eat dinner and it make make my brain explode.

Well, by the same coin, Jesus didnt ask his followers to oppose the Roman senators or ask the church to meddle in politics. They are doing it anyway.
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Dont you think the church cannot be selective in interpretating what Jesus asked his people to follow and justify its actions?

mikesugg

“that sums up in one thought whats wrong with the values of this younger generation. And I assume you are under 60 yrs. old.”
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Good old age discrimination again. Blame the youth of the world. Don’t take any responsibility for the mess were in, and stay steadfast ignorant to what is right in front of your face. I may be younger than you, but based on your response I imagine you have scarcely a third grade education, and if you formally have more than that, then I’m sure that knowledge has been lost for a long time. That sums up the older generation!
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“Work is not being responsible….for what….not paying your bills, putting a roof over your head……clothes on your back….food on your table.
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In case it never occurred to you, work is an exchange of your time for money, which is only ONE medium of exchange. Also, did it ever occur to you that the wealthy don’t work? Everybody else does their work for them, gets paid garbage wages, and the wealthy have all the money they need to pay their bills, while most of the people who work scarcely get by. Of course once you start drawing your nice SS Check, you don’t have to consider that side of the issue anymore, now do you? Based on the wealthy attitude, nobody should work. However, if they didn’t have dumb cattle humans, which you have shown promise of, they wouldn’t have a supply of people they could use to make their wealth, not to mention consumers they can gouge the hell out of. The irony of it all is that the majority of the consumers they are gouging the hell out of are the same people they are paying crap wages to. The GREAT AMERICAN DREAM!
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“Oh wait, there is a magical progressive fairy with the keys to the guv’mints unending supply of “other peoples money”.”
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No.., there is a magical conservative fairy that gave the keys to the business world for the Governments unending supply of “other people’s sweat, blood, time, effort, agony, gullibility, submission, obedience, and failed lives in an economically monopolized system engineered for a few?”
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“I see how it works now. Let everyone quit their jobs (remember, it is NOT responsible to work) and then let’s see how one meets Maslow’s hiearchy of needs (in a responsible way).
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Just for your edification I could go into enormous detail about my life that would cap any argument you have on the subject. I pay my own bills and the bills of those around me, and those who have cheated me. My Step-Father and Mother WORKED their asses off their entire lives and they preached the stuff you just spewed. They wanted to go on a cruise just once in their lives. He died without ever knowing that experience, and my Mother lost their house from rising mortgage payments she could no longer afford. More of the GREAT AMERICAN DREAM! BFS!

noparty98223 @184~

reading your post led to me thinking that most of the people you may be refering to as wasting a lot of their time on someone so wrong and insignificant as Beck:

A) were spending their time on the comments of people like you, not Beck, in a public discussion forum, wherein it would be counter to the purpose of such a forum to ignore those who “speak” up, and

B) that there seem to be a whole lot of folks who buy Beck’s opinions, so, ipso facto, if those opinions ARE wrong, that makes them QUITE significant to address.

Surely you do you post to only engage those that agree with you, so as to effectively hijack the discourse between perspectives, do you? Do you not instead post in order to engage those with different views than yours?

First, you all really, really have to stop, for the lack of a kinder term, glorifying the Nazis. Imagine if Joe McCarthy hated communists about ten times more. Next, unlike McCarthy, add in a bizarre concept of “racial purity”. This concept can not be found in any textbooks since it was junk science from the late 1800s and included that in order to be a member of the elite SS you had to have a particular shape of your skull. (It was based upon a French hypothesis that people with ape-like skulls were more likely to be criminals – thrown out the window with facts long before Hitler came to power.) The Nazi buzz word was not “equality”. It was “purity”. The Nazis always defined themselves as defenders of what GOD had given them. Being a “superior race” (how, why and by what standard if German is a “race” rather than a bunch of places gathered in the middle of Europe is unknown) every part of Europe which had any population of German speakers needed to be German. It went on and on about “defending” against impurity. Equality was not a Nazi theme.

In genetics you can find a pure German Sheppard, but not a “pure German” or “pure Englishman” etc, etc. Peoples wandered. The only reason it was known that Jews traveled was that they kept to themselves more, rarely intermarried and had a different religion. Christian Europeans were wandering back and forth over borders unnoticed. Hitler hated IMMIGRANTS as “Impure”. So, KKK venom is what the Nazis sounded like, not FDR.

We aren’t just christians, we are also citizens of this country. It is not an either/or proposition, but a both/and one. I don’t have any issue with the government having a certain role in society. But when it starts to do the jobs that Jesus gave to the church, I object to it’s intrusion. As a christian, I am supposed to.

My main argument was to make sure that if we use Jesus as a source, that we quote him accurately. Those christians who are using Jesus’ words to justify the government doing the church’s job are simply misunderstanding Jesus’ entire message.

Second, you brought up my favorite president: FDR.
His request to pack the supreme court and, later, to fall under racist pressure to put Japanese Americans into concentration camps was wrong. Clearly today that would have been an impeachable offense. Let me note, we had camps which concentrated the Japanese into one area and, therefore, a concentration camps. The Nazis had death camps where the goal was mass homicide. We had something like medium security prisons for the Japanese Americans and it was extremely wrong.
We, also, had segregation in the Southern states which was, also, extremely wrong and were, then, as a nation far too ignorant to understand it.

However, FDR was not seeking to be a dictator and was not a dictator.

The idea of a second bill of rights was not taken very seriously because it would have been unenforceable for the most part.

In actual practice, free markets tend to concentrate both income and wealth in the hands of the few. When this happens and nothing such as a progressive income tax (such as the one from 1941 through 1960 – changed by JFK – had a top bracket of 90%) and directed government spending towards job creation, there are not enough non-poor to sell goods and services to.

If you have one hundred million people with $500 to spare, you have sold 100 million computers.
If you have, instead, that same $50 Billion dollars in the hands of one family, then, maybe, you have five or six computers sold. If that continues too long, we ALL become poor since the person with $50 billion can’t make a profit on anything he invests in. (Nobody can buy if all of the income and wealth is in the hands of the extremely few.)

Also, the rate of change from one income bracket to another is very little from generation to generation contrary to our self image. People born into bottom one tenth almost never get beyond the fourth tenth of society, for example. Many do not change at all.

One way to shake things up is to provide more opportunities in education to the poor for self betterment.

One reason you want this class mobility is that it motivates people. A man can say that he drives a taxi for a living today so that his son or daughter might someday be a lawyer or a doctor. If he is hopeless and believes that he is driving a taxi so that his son (rarely a daughter in that business – less than 1%) will stay alive and become a taxi driver, too, then he is going to be a very unhappy neighbor.

The concept around a highly progressive income tax is not about taking power, but, by providing empowerment to the middle and lower income people through government subsidized opportunties.

Three things which all industrialized countries outside of the US have; National health care, National after school child care and a National system to cover 100% of college tuition through direct payment or a combination of loans and direct payments.

The bright children from poor towns and inner cities are not waking up in the morning and wishing to be one of those 1% who get full scholarship so that they can greedily grab somebody else’s money. They just want to improve their lives.

If it has to be paid for to improve our workforce and to give the opportunities we proclaim to provide, it can not come from taxing the very same family which can not pay the tuition due to their low or middle income. It has to come from a tax on those with the most income and who’s spending habits will not change our overall economy.

By standards of the rest of the Western World, I am not very liberal since I do believe that our 1950s 90% was too high.

Also, for all of you worshipers of the “good ole days” the number one decade for union strikes was the 1950s. It is highly probable that if there was a time when Unions were being abusive and on the verge of asking for so much that it would drive a company out of business, it was back when your grandfather’s were saving up for your parents’ college tuition while working a union job, not lately.

iamsource @ 173.6~

Wow.

I am quite a vocal and insistent advocate for my philosophies. As such, one would think that I would (as one can see i ofttimes do to others) write some stuff to you about respectful discourse being more effective in public discourse than put-down.

But I am not a Jesus, so I all prey to my own human emotions sometimes (as I have a bit in one or two posts here), and, even more importantly, And I am not a purist — I will compromise some principle in order to live to fight for the light another day. What this means is that I recognize the need for exceptions to insistence on following any mantra.

All that leads to this:

From the glimpses you have shared of what has shaped your perspective, I find myself compelled to say to you that I get the feeling that your taking to task of sugg is not only justified, but appropriate for you. I feel like you actually worked hard to tone down the intensity of your feelings in order to commuinicate them in a manner that might be heard. It feels like you were not responding to sugg in the manner you did because of frustration with sugg possibly having a different world view than you, but instead because what he wrote suggested a world view that has caused you personal grief despite you having manifested the very traits that sugg claimed are the righteous ways — a strong work ethic and exercising a great deal of personal responsibility in your life.

As such, your speech has power born of standing.

(By the way, I am 56, with a childhood-instilled Protestant Work Ethic that led me to work during many periods in my life so many hours in a week that if I told you the number you would say BS, when did you sleep, but because I have almost always been either a homesteader or a start-up entrepreneur and with a habit of giving of myself to others without contract for reciprocation, and if I were today eligible for SS, I would get less than $250 per month, and I have little other “retirement” security, and one of the things I did as activist was to stump for older guards to learn how to communicate with new guards in order to share different kinds of wisom both directions. So I hear you.)

Sorry about your setpfather and your mother, but that could have gone without saying. Keep it up, the future needs you.

“But when it starts to do the jobs that Jesus gave to the church, I object to it’s intrusion. As a christian, I am supposed to.”
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As a citizen, would you object when the church try to intrude into the govt’s job. i.e. to legislate as per the constitution? What do you have to say about the bishops opposing the HCR?

Paladin55,

If I take what you just wrote at face value, you would be EXACTLY what scares me about the right: violence.

I think I have an inside edge on European Style socialism. I was born into a British working class family in 1935 and learned firsthand about life at the bottom of the heap. I will not play ‘Hearts and Flowers’ on my little violin, but I can say without fear of contradiction that living in a country that has been ruled by the aristocracy since Henry VIII, in which the underlings were feudal serfs and vassals in the thrall of their lords and masters did knock the gilt off the gingerbread, and left a society deeply divided and irreconcileable.

Certain historical events such as the Battle of Agincourt in which English bowmen found they could defend themselves without the ‘protection’ of the local lords and robber barons led to the discovery of the ‘individual,’ and the awful bloodshed of the Crimean War in which British light cavalrymen armed with sabres were ordered to attack an array of Russian cannon, meriting the description, “Lions led by donkeys,” and the inadequacy of the titled classed co-opted into the British Armed Forces during WWI proved to ordinary British that the aristocracy were not the lordly race of suoperior beings they had been taught to believe theyw ere. WWII removed any lingering doubts that title, wealth, and privilege were no match for hard work and raw courage, and nowhere were these qualities more readily gorged than in the tough lives led by Working Class Britons.

The upshot is that the scales fell from the eyes of the dispossessed and the social superstructure kept in place by the classic fiction,

“The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate;
God made them
High or Lowly
And ordered their estate.”

That didn’t wash any more and the struggle began to create a more equal model of society in which the needs of those traditionally neglected and left to fend for themselves without access to essential resources could be met.

Out of a recognition that there was more suffering among the poor than could be supported in a nation far-famed and not a littler self-congratulatory was a whole stratum of people that were economic slaves living in mediaeval conditions at the dawn of the 20th century, out of which suffering and deprivation the British Labour Party [BLP] was created by visionary men with burning senses of injustice and the determination to effect changes in a society through the ballot box.

The British have never had the nature of revolutionaries, to which the existence of The Fabian Society, a watering hole for socialistic intellectuals, attests.

After WWII the Labour Party swept into power by a veritable landslide that told where the sympathies of the majority of British Islanders lay.

Part of the Labour Party’s Manifesto was Clause Four, a provision that the means of industrial production and all industries thereto connected would be owned by The People. It’s common name was ‘nationalisation.’

Health services were nationalised, becoming the National Health Service [NHS] that is now the envy of the world. A survey conducted in 2009 placed the UK NHS at the top of the list, with the USA not making the top six.

Per capita spending on the UK NHS is one half to two thirds less than comparable services in the USA.

The distortions now circulating about the UK NHS might have been true fifteen years ago under the incompassionate conservatism dispensed by avuncular Tory grandees that knew ‘how to control men.’

Under Tony Blair’s ‘New labour’ Clause Four was excised and a new kind of socialism that was more pragmatic and less theoretical was introduced and widely accepted, and still is. Yet the Tories habitually vote against every move made by the government to provide more doctors, nurses, health technicians, not to mention teachers and police officers, etc.

I have never been a member of any political party except the one i organised many years ago. That was the ‘Social Justice Party,’ and its name spoke to my concerns. At its height, our membership stood at three – my, my brother Arthur, and my brother’s friend, Tiny. That is my formal contribution to politics.

However, my emotional and intellectual contributions do not rest wherever there is injustice, deprivation, and hybris-powered insouciance.

British socialism, whether with a lower or upper case ‘s’ has no truck with Communism, Nazism, Fascism, Maoism, Thatcherism, Reaganism, Beckism, and so on.

European socialism is aimed at raising the lowest to where they can live above the radar. It is minded to tax the richest 1% that have 99% of the wealth, and to bring the very poor to where they can live as human beings and enjoy the best life possible.

Socialists did not invent taxation, and Conservatives have never abolished it, so all agree that it is necessary. Bush lowered taxes for the richest 1% of the most wealthy Americans, whole the so-called ‘American Middle Class’ and the working classes paid more by direct and indirect taxes.

I have lived in the US for ten years and although I have some find physicians and surgeons, I had just as good and often better in the UK, where healthcare is universal and free at the point of delivery.

I have a friend who is ex-USN and a beneficiary of the VA. He hates socialism, he says, but refuses to believe that the VS is socialistic whatever way you look at it.

Europe is the most civilised place in the world, and although no European wraps himself in the flag other than the neo-Nazis, he has much to boast about. Yet boasting about one’s country is tantamount to whistlin’ Dixie to keep one’s spirits up because one is sure that there is no case for bombast and chauvinism.

Don’t get me wrong; I like the US very much, but I would never support my own nation when it is in the wrong. I never have and I never will.

‘Socialism’ is a naughty word used to scare little children who do not know that such things as bogeymen do not exist.

Socialism is the temporal salvation of countless millions and will be the same in the US if US Citizens would exchange their Fear Factors for some readily available facts that show socialism to be a boon and a blessing to mankind.

Ronnir

Certainly not. Some religious do hate and are motivated by hatred, but those practitioners are not ‘religion.’ Religion is not a haven for the perfect, but a university for the confessedly ignorant and imperfect that want to do better and more nearly approach their ideals day by day..

A Democrat is a Republican who got a pink slip.

Liberals, on average, earn far, far less money.

Second, remove the amount donated to church activities, accounting for non-religious liberals (there are, also, non-religious conservatives, so it is not all cut and dry) and the numbers come close without taking income into account.

The cause and effect are very clear: earn less and meet others who earn less and you are more likely to become progressive seeing the need for yourself and others. Earn more and move to a wealthy community where nobody is need of anything, then you can not imagine the degree of poverty out there and you tend to be far more conservative.

As I said above, it is rare for any one person (I am among the exceptions) to have lived in both very wealthy towns and slums in the same lifetime.

It seems as if religious people have a fear that government is astronomically amazing at ending poverty and even unhappiness so that a more progressive government would leave no good deeds left for religious people to do.

There will always be unhappiness of many kinds and for the ones which can not be taken care of with a check, there is room for volunteers of faith or without faith to get involved.

@ Exiled at home:

You must differentiate between the term ‘social justice’ and the principle of ‘social justice.’

The principle of social justice is enshrined in tnk hence it predates 1840, Jesuitism, Christianity and all current political parties and philosophies.

The principle is God-given, required, not optional if you wish to secure the blessings on which it is predicated.

As to the idea that tithing in Mormonism is not optional, whoever says it is is wrong. Not just wrong, but dead wrong. All obedience to God’s laws is optional. Read the Bible.

Earlier someone said that Mormons only provide necessities for Mormons in good standing. This is another nonsense.

Google ‘mormon philanthopic works’ or some such and discover the truth for yourselves. My personal opinion is that the person was never a Mormon because no Mormon or even ex-Mormon could make such a fundamantal error.

@ 194.1~

I concur. Even if paladin55 were on the “left” i would still concur, because although violence is unacceptable when committed by anyone of any lable my experiences that have given me glimpses of left-ish folks with interest in violence, it also has left me with the belief that the ability of them being violent growing into mass (or even medium-size group) violence is essentially zero, whereas my glimpses of their right-ish counterparts has left me with the belief that violence instigated amongst them could proliferate into a movement. That is not to say that the percentage of right-ists that would join in is huge, just that it could easily become large enough to reach crtical mass.

Even comparing risk of individual violence occuring in both camps, both the percentages and actual numbers of individually-violent left-ishes would be orders of magnitude smaller than that of right-ishes.

I don’t think political inclination is one of the pieces of data routinely collected about violent offenders, but I’ll bet such info would show a correlation. I would feel better if I was wrong, though.

Ronnie,

I was hoping we could borrow about one hundred to one hundred and fifty thousand English people who are not a part of the Tory party to go to door to door and explain this to our Republicans.

Do you think you can work that out?

After all, we did have lend lease during the first few years of World War II, so, I figured a hundred to a hundred and fifty thousand English civilians wouldn’t be too much to ask to borrow just until the next election in November.

I love your post and wish more Americans knew what kind of right wing propaganda they are being fed.

Well, since I’m not a part of the Catholic church, I don’t hold the bishops as an authority for the church. If they are speaking as if they make official statements for the church, then I would say they are overstepping their bounds. But individual Christians are supposed to make their voices heard just the same as any other citizens of this country. I have a problem with Obamacare mainly because we can’t afford it and because I think there are better ways to improving health care in this country. When the country can do with less government, it should. As Dennis Prager says, “the bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.” We should be in charge of our own health care, not have it dictated on high by government bureaucracy.

Conservative Terrorists:

Joe Stack, flew airplane on Suicide bombing of Austin Texas IRS 2009

Eric Rudolph left time bomb at Centennial Park at 1996 Olympics Atlanta Georgia.

Timothy McVeigh, 1995 Killed hundreds with a truck bomb Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

Liberal/progressive terrorist threat post Vietnam War: 0

It makes me wonder why conservatives seem to want guns so much. Although not many, some want to shoot progressives or administrators of our duly elected government if they don’t like, say, being penalized for cheating on your taxes year after year (Joe Stack – and we are supposed to be the whiners lacking a sense of “personal responsibility” when he is infuriated by being punished for breaking the law?)

If you have no good way tro search this stream, this notice is for all those who get here that have said or have somethiong to say about Socialsim and Health Care systems.

go to 7.9 and 7.10 (i will make my relatively insignificant comment following those two)

PatrickSartor and RonnieBray,

Is there a way to communicate with you two directly offline without posting my email on this forum?

Your political viewpoints are different from mine, but there is rationality in your arguments.

Although I firmly believe in that a man (or woman) is responsible to meet his own needs and that the government (especially at the federal level) is not responsible to provide individuals anything, I also recognize (sometimes overlooked by conservatives) that although we may be create equal, the reality of the situation is that if one is born in the middle an impoverished culture (inner city, slums, or many other situations), that individual will never have the same opportunities as another born only several blocks away.

I would like to have an open and honest dialog, off this forum.

Would you contact me at a temporary email address of aaron_mackley@yahoo.com?

How does this answer my main argument? Jesus got people to help those in need by convincing them of his cause, not by forcing them to follow his way of thinking with the backing of the government. If liberals are going to fight for more government programs for the poor, more power to them. But don’t twist around Jesus’ words to try to make Him support your side when he doesn’t. Following Jesus’ words would cause us to encourage the church to help the poor, not the government. Big difference. Either quote Jesus accurately or don’t quote him at all. That is my point and the author of this article needs to take it to heart.

patricksartor said it better, but thank you, ronniebray.

I misspoke at #196. I do have something to add

Recently, an friend of mine who has had a rural small-town private practice for 27 years sold his practice to the local hospital. The local paper ran a story about it wherein he reported that the last straw for him had been that he had grossed about 1.5 million dollars last year, and netted just over $1000.

Lars Larson saw the story, and smelling an opportuntiy to trash Medicare, called my friend and put him on he air.

Paraphrasing now:

” Why did this happen? Couldn’t be because Medicare ties doctor’s hands by not paying them well enough or at all for needeed services for patients, could it? Couldn’t be becausue they are, of couirse, a wasteful governmenn agency could it?”

“Well, actually, I made a pretty good living off of Medicare for 27 years. Sure, as a government agency, they bungle stuff, and sometimes the wheels turn awfully slowly, and they take about 1.8% off the top for administrative costs, but I knew who owned them and where they lived so I could always find them to get some action. With the private insurers, you never know who is pulling the strings and certainly cannot ever get ahold of them and their rates of denial of services increased to the point where i was paying out of my pocket for services I deemed my patients needed and the privates have Bernie Maddoff’s taking 22% right off their tops directly into ttheir pockets. Is that what you want?”

My firend now pausing ever so slightly to takea breath, Lars couldn’t move his fingers fast enough to push the button to cut my friend off the air. End of interview.
“

i was wrong, i did have something to say at 9.11 (the comment number, that is, not the fateful date and location)

Sartor, Bray, and Mackley @ 180.11

on THAT note I can put this thing down and get some sleep. Just to see this stage reached makes the time and effort of having been here this long and often well worth it the price of admission (making all else I got out of being here bonuses.)

Thanks to all three of you.

I don’t like being harsh, but I have a very low tolerance for ignorance. Ignorance is the worlds MOST DEADLY DISEASE! – Harry Palmer – http://www.avatarepc.com

“Well, since I’m not a part of the Catholic church, I don’t hold the bishops as an authority for the church. If they are speaking as if they make official statements for the church, then I would say they are overstepping their bounds”
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sirluce. That’s the problem when you try to interpret what someone said hundred’s (founding fathers) or thousand’s (Jesus) of years ago.
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The bishops interpret that god has given them direction to meddle in politics. Equally, some politician can interpret the constitution to say that Health care is required for every citizen.
.
so Never the twain shall meet..

iamsource @ 173.8~

Watch this space

I was halfway through a long post in response to your “ignorance” comment when my extremely poor typing skills manifested some errant key stroking that obliterated the page without any of it posting.

I am trashed and will have to pick up the task tomorrow.

So then you need to tell Amy Sullivan who wrote this article that she shouldn’t be chastising Glenn Beck on Jesus’ authority since she too interpreted what Jesus said thousands of years ago. And as well anyone else that is “stupid” enough to interpret anything that is over 100 years old. I guess we should throw out Shakespeare cause we can’t possibly understand what he said. Or Homer since that is even older than the New Testament. Dickens is a close call cause he’s 150 years old. Sounds like you need to think through what you just said a little more carefully. I’m not sure the world would do well without Homer, NT, Shakespeare and Dickens. But I could be wrong.

sirluce,

Other possible titles “Commentator makes remark about what Christians can do”

“Not all Christians agree”

“Beck makes remark about some Christians”

So, she mimicked Beck in a tongue in cheek way and came up with “Beck HATES Jesus”.

Beck hates some interpretations (most common amongst black Churches and Catholics) of Christianity.

He definitely does. With one of the other headlines, there might have been six instead of six hundred entries.

I wasn’t referring to you mycophile, or anyone in particular for that matter. I was referring to the concept of Ignorance (resistance, as I use it) in general and it’s compounding affect that all of us are responsible for.

iamsourse~

I did not think you were refering to me.

your post triggered a sequence of thoughts in me that I did not know how to express well in just a few words.

patricksartor@ 195~

I was thinking of a statistically-significant data set, and also one broader than just media darlings, but while we are looking at those, I shall add the abortion-clinic arsonists and doctor shooters to the “right”, and the Symbionese Liberation Army to the “left”.

The Unabomber most would put on the “left”, I think, but I would put him above the left-right continuum. What shall we guess of the Anthrax-letters author?

And then where shall we put Squeaky Fromme? (pun intended)

The Far Right neocons and close associates are like tobacco: They have their defenders but they have no defense.

Professor Eysenck, a psychologist, determined by one of his studies that Rightist-Centrist-Leftist political positions were less a matter of what makes sense and more a matter of individual constitutions.

If he is right, then political positioning of individuals could be predetermined, as are gender and other physical and intellectual characteristics.

I recommend that whatever proclivities a person has and regardless of whether it is nature or nurture, or a splash of each, that every element in political philosophies and party policies be subjected to the critical thought processes that each sentient being possesses to some degree.

That approach would remove slander and libel from discussion and also, obviate the questionable practice of execration, and require the application of intelligence, experience to the issues at hand.

A first step could be to require the prohibition of vagrant opinions, and an insistence on verifiable evidence to support one’s position.

There are problems with this approach, but the results would be less bad-tempered faceoffs in the OK/It’s NOT OK Corral.

It’s not that I am afraid of a good fight, but if a position is a thing of sturm und drang then there’s not much to get hold of, whichever way up it is turned.

As compulsive iconoclasts demonstrate, it is easy to be down on something you are not up on, and no skill, no brains, and no character are required if you want to set up in the criticism business.

Nothing worthwhile was ever built on a lie.

Ronnie

You both are putting up smoke and mirrors to my initial point which is just as valid as when I first stated it. Jesus called his disciples, the church, to take care of the poor, not the government. Therefore, Jesus has put the church in charge of this job. Until patrick, maverick or Amy deal with this fact, you are all simply abusing Jesus’ words. The interpretation of scripture is not a free for all. God didn’t intend it to be. You can’t make it say anything you want it to. Jesus had a specific message he wanted to get across, and it is up to us to interpret it correctly. Anything less is letting Jesus down.

Unimbomber: anti government and anti-corporate..

I would think of anti-government as right, but so far away from the conservatives that I couldn’t lump him in their camp.

Flip a coin on him. I have no way saying either one.

The anthrax letter man: psychotic and indecipherable.

I have no idea what he was trying to achieve.

I would, for the most part, put them both in line with serial killers who have no political agenda.

“Jesus has put the church in charge of this job…’

“…The interpretation of scripture is not a free for all. God didn’t intend it to be.”

Interesting. I am intimately aware of these arguments since they are, also, from the Roman Catholic Church.

However, this one organization which has some historical claim of going back to and calling the disciple Peter the first pope appointed by Jesus himself are among the Christians telling you that Jesus was at least a political centrist is if not a Social Democrat.

You seek to discuss what happened between Pope Peter, the disciple and when Constantine, the first Roman emperor to legalize Catholic Christianity, but, having left religion behind, I am not going to debate that.

There is a different interpretation of Jesus in every protestant (I mean all non-Catholic Christian when I say “protestant”) congregation in the world and one weakly held together by the Vatican.

So, Glenn Beck does hate what some people interpret Jesus to be.

If there is a god, only one interpretation of Jesus will lead towards the most venerated path to salvation. Just because you, sirluce, believe you have that one does not have to do with anybody else in this world.
Others are as sure as you are that the things Beck had said were, indeed, against who Jesus really was.

Get to heaven and find out.

I, personally, believe death means sleeping a dreamless sleep forever and am not going to waiting for yours or anybody else’s answer. I am going to just stay alive as long as possible and be a good guy as best as I can.

patricksartor, you seem to be quite facile with info search and/or are encyclopedic and possess the time to apply such, so you may be able to be more sure than I, but could not the same agruments be made regarding Stack, Rudolph, and McVeigh? (psychotic, and/or undecipherable and/or anti-government, etc.)?

However, whilst almost all such violence is perpetrated by “troubled” minds, and while the specific motives for specific acts of violence might or might not be Political in a nature that lends itself neatly enough to be placed in the “left-right” continuum (I share what appears to be ronniebray’s critique on the usefullness of that descriptor scale), I was hypothesizing that if violent offenders were all to have been asked to descibe themselvs as either “left” or “right”, that a super-super majority of them would have said “right”. In other words, that the same kind of childhood imprinting and thinking errors that facilitate having a “faith” in the rightness of the “right” also facilitate propensity to seeing violence as a legitimate means with which to impose one’s will. THAT is what scares ME about the “right”

But, hey, that could be incorrect. It’s only an hypothesis born of my own observations of some individuals (for instance, in my youth I used to debate Democrats, Republicans, SDS’ers, and Black Panthers all at the same tables, and the only physical threats I ever got were from supporters of the Republicans.) Hence my wish for a statistically significant data set to test it with.

Oh, to save a few critics from having to point out that I was hypocritcal, there are also those on the “left” whose childhood imprinting and thinkin errors produce a “faith” in the rightness of the “left”. I just have not seen much evidence to suggest that it strongly correlates in this country with propensity to seeing violence as a legitimate means with which to impose one’s will. Although there are those that would argue that the Lenonites were people in another country in another age that fit into that category, but I would have to be careful not to take debait (spelling intentional) on that one becuse I do not see totalitarianism as a “left” thing at all.

Saying there are other interpretations of these passages doesn’t refute my point. I assume that means you are going to avoid dealing with it. I just find it interesting that someone who isn’t even a Christian tries to defend a liberal interpretation of Jesus because it happens to coincide with his political view and then ignore a specific piece of evidence that points out why that liberal viewpoint is misguided. Jesus’ words were not meant to be taken any way we feel like it. And if Amy Sullivan is going to use them, she better be able to back them up. As should you.

No, I would not put violence onto a conservative side specifically.
In a high school political science class I read a book called “The True Believer” by Eric Hoffer.

Now, in some ways – but not all – contradicting what I had said about the completely opposite ideologies of Communism and fascism (like calling somebody a devil worshiping christian, a drunken kind of tea totaller, etc) the personalities of fanatics seems to be very similar.

There seems to be a particular personality which grabs onto an extremely fundamentalist view of religion, an extreme political persuasions on the left or right and have a view that there cause is the end all and be all.

Fascist as soldiers of the crusades, the Inquisition and today’s fundamentalist Muslims (not to be mistaken with the mellow dude who doesn’t eat pork and doesn’t drink serving you a slushy at seven eleven – that would be a regular Muslim, a little nerdy sometimes and usually a very good person) all have god on their side. So, if god is the maker of morality, then anything immoral (including in one the crusades the Christians engaged in cannibalism) is completely fine.

Marxism is like a religion. However, they believe in an earthly paradise.
We all know that, when attempted, it was a totalitarian nightmare and not a paradise.

People with this attraction to extremes of all kinds and wishing to be warriors for god (or for the “people’s paradise” of communism – which is close to being a theology itself) go to the loudest and most extreme rabble rousers. There not going to go to John Kerry droning on about who knows what (miserably uninspiring speaker Kerry is).

If they are not going to go to the neo-Nazis or the KKK shouting out that the “inferior” (insert disliked group name here) “are stealing what belongs to us the” (insert liked group name here). they will be attracted to others such as highly conservative talk show hosts and, imaginably, Glenn Beck as their hero.

The American Communist Party has not run a candidate since 1984 during which year a combined four Communist parties gained only 100,000 votes out of a country of, then, two hundred and fifty million.

So, since the incredibly absurd on the left is, basically, non-existent, we should be worried about the extreme right.

Hearing about “this country WIILL BE RUINED!” if we pass health care reform will draw people towards violence more than somebody like Nancy Pelosi sayying “I really like this bill”.

sirluce @ 191.12~

I don’t usually, and so far here, have not entered the debate on religious themes largely because of somthing similar to a point you raise — I don’t consider myself an adequate student of religion or religious writings to keep up.

But nor does it feel important to the conduct of my life to become such a student because not only my own self-critique but also the feedback of all who know me lead me to feel sure that I operate it with love, respect, honesty, compassion, tolerance, integrity, etc. and that holding, for instance, as iron-clad a belief in a New Testament God would change how I conducted myslef one bit.

However, I now interject for a moment.

patricksartor saying there are other interpretations of the passages you cite certainly DOES appear to me to at least go a long way in refuting what your point appears to me to be.

I suspect you disagree with this, but I say that just because you hold a particular version of words that are attributed to Jesus as his true words does not mean it is so. Period, because you, nor anyone else, can prove that, nor can you cite to any anecdotal personal experiences to suggest it is so. Or can you (be careful!)?

Do you even believe that Jesus wrote them? Do you believe that the people who hundreds of years after his supposed life ended began to write words ascribed to Jesus somehow got them exactly correct? Have you ever read the most ancient versions in their original language and are you fluent in those languages? Which version of the Bible is the “accurate” one?

patricksartor reports to have been a Catholic and to have then been exposed to its teachings, and, I assume, therefore Biblical reading. What makes your interpretation more correct than his, let alone THE only true meaning of what Jesus supposedly said? Does God talk to you? If so, did not the Vatican declare several centuries ago that God would no longer be doing that? Don’t you know that belief in hearing God talk to one is one of the symptoms of various mental disorders?

please try to excuse my derisive tone, but arrogant hypocrisy is my Achilles’ heel, and I smell it here. I have no problem with anyone declaring that they BELIEVE in a particular interpretation of Scripture, but I do have a problem with those who declare that the one they believe in is THE Word.

@ 195.4~

Ah, then you would be arguing that what is scary about the “Right” these days is the sheer mass of those self-aligned with it that possess that particular personality which grabs onto an extremely fundamentalist view of religion, an extreme political persuasions on the left or right and have a view that there cause is the end all and be all?

And you would argue that there need not be a corresponding fear of the “Left” due to a paucity of such individuals?

Because the number of such on the “Right” exceeds a critical mass for prolideration of mob violence, but the number on the “Left” is far below such a threshold?nce a mat

This is getting quite far afield from my original point which no one wants to refute. I am perfectly capable of defending whether what is in the gospels is an accurate portrayal of what Jesus actually said, but that was not the point of my original post. You guys seem to want to divert the conversation elsewhere. Let me help you in refuting my point. If you were to come up with some quotes from Jesus in the NT that specifically call for the government to do something about feeding the poor and clothing the naked, then you would actually have something. It wouldn’t refute my point, but at least it would give you SOME ground to stand on. The argument I am defending is very narrow. Jesus called the CHURCH to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, not the government. Show me quotes from Jesus that refute that and you will actually have an argument. Up until this point, you don’t have any ground to stand on. This is not a matter of whether there are other arguments but which ones are better and which ones are worse.

sirluce @ 191.14~

Thank you for helping us get somewhere. I still feel that my comment was rather germane to the discussion of your point, although I do agree it did not directly address your point, I feel it went to an underlying assumption of yours that I contend is false. To only discuss your point without challenging its underlying assumptions would limit the field of analysis, It would be like asking a multiple choice question whose choices of answers were all false. Or perhaps like the cop asking the man: “When did you beat your wife, sir?”, without first having esatblished that a beating even took place.

But now, witth your re-focus, I can treat my previous post as a preface (providing context) to what I will now write:

First, I entirely agree that this is a matter of which arguments are better and which are worse. Between you and I, we will never likely agree that one version or another of what is writen that Jesus said is the more accurate. I “hear” loud and cleat that you are confident you could argue for one, but a careful read of my previous post should make it clear that I would not be persuaded. As well, in any discussion of which arguments are better and which are worse, we are liekly to be left with you saying that scripture-interpretation-based argument is the better, and I that experience-based logical argument is the better

That all said, since I waded in to your waters, I shall pretend for a minute that discussing what Jesus might have said is actually relevant to the question of what role the government role in health care should be. I’ll even go so far as to accept YOUR words characterizing what Jesus said as the assumption from which to build my argument. Are you ready?

I will mix exacrt wordings of yours and paraphrases, in order to save space.

You report that Jesus directed his comments to his disciples, i.e. the people that would become the church, and that he specifically did not call on the Roman government to do that. You report that he certainly could have targeted the government for taking responsibility for these things if he thought it was the right way to go. Since he did not, you conclude that Jesus has put the church in charge of this job.

There is a self-contradiction in that report, as well as some missing perspective.

THE contradiction: Jesus called on the people who would become the church, not on the church itself.

Derivations from the data: Jesus put “the people” in charge, not a government that rules the people.

Question: Did Jesus say that NO government should be in charge of assisting the poor?

Blaringly absent data: Jesus did not say that the government should not be in charge because they were A government. Jesus did not tell the people to tell the government not to be in chargeof helping the poor or not to help the poor in any way

Missing perspective: The Roman government was oppressing the poor. They therefore could NOT be entrusted to take care of them. The priests of the Jewish Church at the time were complicit with the Roman government in order to be allowed what priviledges they could. The people that Jesus was calling on to help the poor themselves had no influence on the Roman government, and therefore the only way they could help the poor was by direct and personal means.

Logic: If a government was a reflection of the people’s will, the people’s will to help the poor would be able to be manifested by the government. If our government is “of the people”, then our governmental social services are the result of “the people” choosing to help the poor by those particular means, even though many of the people also help the poor more directly.

If our government is not “of the people”, then the people have no say in what the government does or does not do for the poor.

Conclusions: Since I am not one of the people who became the church, Jesus was not talking to me, so I am off the hook of taking care of the poor, and the sole burden rests with people like you. Likewise, even if Jesus HAD told the people not to put the government in charge of that, I am free to do so. So is patricksartor, because he left the Church. So are the majority of Americans, because they are not of the (Jesus) Church of your beliefs.

Suggestion: Save your breath for those who have the same suredness of what Jesus said, and therefore are the ones that Jesus was instructing thusly. Don’t bother trying to tell anyone else, especially the government, what to do or not to do for the poor. Jesus was trying to tell you that it was a waste of effort — to focus instead on what you can do directly for the poor yourself. Jesus did not tell you to tell the government to butt out of the job of helping the poor

hope you enjoyed that.. I did.

Can Amy join “The 700 Club”?

…icky, what the hell’s wrong with social justice?

decontructiva asks if this comment stream will top 700 comments.

Surely.

Rusty, where’s your poll update?

mycophile, I hope you post more often at the other blog posts.

deconstructiva asks icky “just what the” (heck) “is wrong with social justice.”

Is that a ploy to reignite the same, tired sequence of arguments in order to get this thread to 700?

Surely he deconstructiva knows by now that it will be a confused discussion of apples and oranges. Some will speak of “social justice” as words, and soem will speak of “Social Justice” as a lable for a particular political philosophy. And within both camps there will be wide differences in what those words mean, which political movement or religion in which time and place defines the lable, and just waht is “justice”, anyway.

How about instead i ask icky to opine on what he thinks is the best means by which to alleviate suffering and envy and greed, to foster a society in which happiness and comfort and are sustainaably maximized, adn what role(s) could government best play in acheivng that?

In re of: Jesus, Church, Government, and Caritas.

If Jesus is nothing more than a teacher for his own time and
place, then there might be merit in determining that he taught that the community of believers was to shoulder the cost, time, and labour of caring for the poor, the sick, the disabled, the dispossessed, the unemployed, and the elderly, &c.

However, a thorough survey of the Old Testament shows two pervasive themes interwoven throughout the salvation-history of Israel in such a way that they cannot be separated from the yhvh cult without doing the same violence to it as does removing the heart from a living person.

Israel – the People of yhvh – were a single entity in the eyes of God. Tribal chauvinism was a human weakness that interfered with the integrity of Israel to its detriment. Israel was designed and divinely appointed to be a covenant community that surrounded the House of yhvh to serve him.

The arrangement was that Israel would perform certain duties in exchange for which yhvh would bless Israel disproportionately but to their advantage.

Duty to the community of Israel was duty to God. Duty to one’s family was also duty to God. A person that did not serve his community was a ‘bad’ person and as such placed himself beyond the pale of God’s relationshiop because the wicked individual has acted outside the bonds of the covenant relationship.

One that acted similarly within his own family was also deemed to have yielded to the urge to wickedness and could be ostracised.

Because ‘wickedness,’ or ‘evil’ are terms described by God, it it not possible to neglet one’s duty to one’s family or to the wider community without stepping outside the bonds of the covenant, because neglect of community or family is evil in the sight of God.

One might nopt agree with that definition but that is the way it is set up, and the same standards apply to orthodox Jewish communities throughout the world.

Jesus was a Jew, and a learned one. The roots of Christianity penetrate deep into Jewish soil as Jesus often recognised.

The journey undertaken by Israel in its second millennium of settlement in Canaan is shown in several important documents in the Hebrew Scriptures.

For example, Isaiah castigates Israel for holding to empty rituals that are done mechanically but without inner conviction.

Jonah demonstrates that yhvh is no longer to be considered as the mountain God or the God of storms, nor yet as a strictly tribal deity but as the universal numen.

Amos enfold Isaiah’s message of the need for ‘inner religion’ rather than empty ritual, and adds to that the absolute necessity of social justice in unmistakeable terms, along with castigating the mores of the Northern Kingdom because they were grown rich, irreligious, and socially oppressive. Amos makes, speaking for yhvh makes social justice, God’s omnipotence, and divine judgment, the three major points of his book of prophecy.

Jesus did nothing to move the clock back, but went even further in his teachings. The difference between the actions of the sheep and goats and their disposal after judgement he delineates so finely and pointedly that a wayfaring man, though he be a fool, need not err therein.

The Roman Conquest of Palestine imposed on Jews a set of circumstances that did not enslave their minds even as it limited their abilities to do certain things in the purely physical realm.

But spiritually their souls were bent on continuing the covenant relationship with God as it was set at Sinai in approximately BC 1150. That they did not connect all the dots is evident by comparing the details of the covenant with the actual performance Israel turned in.

The teachings of Jesus designed to do two things; First, to re-establish the Sinai Covenant as it was in the beginning, and then, secondly, to move forward from the ritual covenant into the covenant of meaning where a person’s intention mattered more than what he did.

An even as Jesus said he was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, he was Christianity’s first foreign missionary [John 6], and from his own words [Matthew 3, etc] it is plain that his ultimate outreach was ‘to every creature.’

Jesus did not fight with the Roman invaders, but built his kingdom from within and instructed his followers, disciples, how they ought to conduct themselves in order to remain of his flock.

As I have previously explained, Jesus laid the responsibility for care of the poor etc, squarely on the shoulders of the individual, but also on the shoulders of the wider community.

It is evident that in the USA ‘the government’ is composed of people from the country that are elected by the people of the country to represent their views in plenary sessions in DC.

Many churches do not have the will, the manpower, nor the resources to tackle all social ills in their communities, but the wider community does, and so it should do so with the full approval of the population whether believers or not.

Jesus came to save the souls of humanity and gather them to him and his Father in heaven. It is vital that his primary purpose is recognised. Despite that long-term focus he did not neglect those he saw on his way that needed bodies, hearts, and souls healing, and neither can his disciples pass by on the other side of the road when they come across someone lying helpless, wounded, bleeding, stripped of clothing, cash, and likely to die of his injuries.

In Matt25 Jesus makes the point cogently that to neglect such an one is to neglect Him at the cost of salvation.

I take issue with the person that calls this reading of the teaching of Jesus ‘abusing the scriptures.’ It is not abuse, but proper use, and the fact that some churches are finding that they have fallen down on this teaching as they pursued different aims down the years are returning to the basic teachings and messages of Jesus and thereby are likely to save their souls and lead others after them.

Glenn Beck is not telling us the truth. He is scaremongering and only the scared believe Beck is a truth-teller.

Socialism of the kind encountered in modern Europe bears no resemblance to Nazism, and neither did Hitler’s inaccurately named ‘German Nationalist Socialist Workers’ Party. Because I look at your tyre and tell you you have a puncture, you have a primary duty to yourself to inspect your tyre and see whether my calling it punctured makes it punctured, or whether there is more to words than simple appearance.

How many legs does a sheep have if you call the tail a leg? Provided that the sheep had four legs to begin with then it still only has four legs, because calling the tail a leg does not make it a leg. Try it at home on the cat and see for yourself.

Joy-comes from knowing Jesus and his message and miserly comes from misrepresenting his message.

Robin Hood was an outlaw. What laws did Jesus break?

Opinions do not change facts, no matter how much someone wishes they might.

Ronnie

dcon @ 197.1~

We’ll see. My addictive reaction to this one has taken a toll on my ability to personally respond to other, previuosly ongoing matters. Howver, I did post now twice to the current Kucinich story blog, having held out hope for him as one of the few possibly real servants of common citizens and our Constituional principles. If that hope becomes dashed, I may become as helpless feeling as all those self-described right-wing sheep who keep going back to get sheared even when they are not getting fed well enough to produce much, or quality, wool, thus continually downgrading the fiber of cloth that their masters spin from it to cover everything up with.

with it known that I am not a “believer”, I certainly cannot judge, point-by-point, the accuracy of your data, Ronnie. But I am a thinker, logician, and intuit, and most of tha rap felt sound.

for the record, just in case, of course my comment to sirluce about me being off the hook of personal responsibiltiy to help those less fortunate than I, and any inference that I can completely transfer that role to our goverment, was intended as part of a proof by contradiction to make a point (one similar to the one you have made in terms sirluce might beter be able to listen to) — Because, in reality, I have assisted others so much for decades that I am at risk of being not so well off myself when I can no longer work so hard.

for I AM a believer, akin to patricksartor, of doing good for as long as I can

I think it is a good thing that there are a lot of people who do that..

I can only assume from your response that there is no quote from Jesus in the NT that specifically calls on government to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, so as far as I’m concerned I proved my point. I would think that someone seeking the truth would be willing to admit that point and then move on, but I guess you can’t. There was no trick question in there, it is just a straight forward question that is what it is. In addition, to suggest this is my only argument against things such as Obamacare is a little presumptuous on your part. I am quite capable of debating health care on the merits or the lack thereof. My original post was in direct response to the article “Why does Glenn Beck Hate Jesus” which presupposes that Amy Sullivan knows what Jesus taught and it is in conflict with what Glenn Beck is fighting for. I find that to be just as arrogant and judgmental as you find my statements, so I came to Beck’s defense. In response to your arguments, the church is made up of Jesus’ disciples, so trying to make a distinction between disciples and the church is a little ridiculous. As far as the governmental comments, if Jesus puts the church in charge of feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, and he never mentioned that government had a role, then the obvious understanding would be that the church is in charge of that function and Jesus didn’t see any need for the government to get involved. Also, regardless of what the Roman government was like, if Jesus felt that the government should have been involved in the process, he should have said something about their job in taking care of the poor. It is conspicuous by it’s absence. As far as our government forcing us to pay for other people’s health care, seems to me that is another direct contradiction to Jesus’ methods which I posted in 192. Jesus was in the business of encouraging voluntary acts of service to the poor, not forced coercion. You don’t produce charity by pointing a gun to someone’s head and saying “you will help other people pay for health care or else.” You produce charity by encouraging people to give freely out of the goodness of their hearts and that giving will benefit them as much as the persons they are giving to. That is the way Jesus did things. If it is good enough for the God of the universe, I think it is good enough for you and I. As far as your conclusion, if you don’t hold Jesus as an authority, and you don’t feel giving to the poor is a good thing to do, I’m not going to force you to do it. Then get out of the way and let those of us who want to do the right thing in helping out the poor do our thing and stop shackling us with more government confiscation of our wealth to set up these pet projects of the government that waste more than they produce.

“I guess we should throw out Shakespeare cause we can’t possibly understand what he said. Or Homer since that is even older than the New Testament. Dickens is a close call cause he’s 150 years old. ”
.
Sir luce, Surely you are not trying to equate the Bible and the Constitution with fictional tales written by Shakespeare, Dickens and Homer !!!
.
Glenn Beck (as the self-appointed sole interpretator of the consititution) and some nutcase Christian leader (again self appointed) might consider that a blasphemy!
.
Others have countered most of your other points, so I won’t go over them again.

Maverick, I think the point was clear. I was showing the absurdity of saying we can’t figure out the meaning of books that are over 100 years old. If you read the post i responded to, the point is obvious. Are you intentionally trying to misconstrue what I said?

And equally, I was pointing out the absurdity of equating interpretation of works of fiction versus works of non-fiction.
.
In any case, Leaving the subject of interpretation aside (we both interpret it differently !!), Do you think the govt should follow the words of Jesus (aka Bible) or should it follow the words of the founding fathers (aka Constitution) ?
.
BTW, Amy was giving Beck a taste of his own medicine of quoting some ancient text in order to show that his “perceived” enemies are evil.
.
Moral of the story: Don’t hide behind some ancient text, because it is going to come back and bite you.

sirluce @191.16~

1) it is telling that you would state that you “can only assume from (my) response that there is no quote from Jesus in the NT that specifically calls on government to feed the hungry and clothe the naked”

It seems you must have missed the part about how I make no claim to knowledge of Scripture, and had stated that I was going to argue by using what YOU were using as assumptions. so OF COURSE I would not have claimed any quotes existed in the NT to that effect, because YOU did not make that claim.

Therefore, to say my absence of such a claim proves your point is merely a self-substantiating argument. I hope you will retract it.

2) Also (and much more germane to my argument) was that also absent from your report of what Jesus said is any instruction to his flock to petiton the government NOT to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, nor to deny the governemnt the chance to, nor to prevent the government from doing so. Why do you not also find THAT a “blaring omission”?

3) As I have written elswhere her, I though that Amy’s headline was a journalistic trick to draw the likes of you and I into the same discussion forum. It worked.

Pleased to meet you, too. Allow me to clear up a coule of misconceptoions you seem to have regarding me. One is that I did not characterize your statments as judgemental and arrogant — I characterized your attitude that you know for sure what Jesus said and what he meant as arrogant. Another is that I made not even an inference that the quote of yours that began this reply was your only argument against things such as Obamacare. A third is that I care not to personally help the poor. Given what doing so at times has cost me (in far more than money), I could feel insulted and disrespected.

4) But, instead, I realize that I gambled and failed with you. I tried to use a process known in Mathematics as a proof by contradiction — start by assuming something that you feel is untrue and then use logic to reach an absurd conclusion, thereby demonstrating that the assumption could not have been true.

5) Laslty, I feel like you substantiated a point I made when you were able to write: “Then get out of the way and let those of us who want to do the right thing in helping out the poor do our thing.” Embodied in that statement is a recognition that if a goup of people wish to help the poor in a way that they consider to be “right”, others who do not agree with that approach should not interfere. I suggest to you that in order to be taken seriously, you should practice what you preach.

Oh, and I have SERIOUS objections to the Health Care bill (i consider it to be more of an insurance-industry care bill), but SOMETHING has to start things moving away from a health-care system funded in the shadow of greed, and that something needs to be not small, and I do not see even the sum total of all the efforts of church-goers having made much of a dent yet (or the need for serious reform would not exist), nor do I see that they could. And if “unshackled” from paying taxes for social programs, the need would be orders of magnitude greater than the increase in spending on the poor that churchgoers would make. If you try to suggest otherwise, I will shake my head in wonderment, and have to conclude that you have been long insulated from direct experience with anyplaces ouitside of your own neighborhood and church

Whether it is fiction or nonfiction, there are specific messages that are presented in each. You can’t legitimately read Shakespeare and think that he wanted us to kill 6 million people after reading Othello, can you? So stop with the nonsense. In regards to Jesus vs the Constitution, Jesus wasn’t in the business of setting up a theocracy, he was in the business of changing people’s lives so they would live the right way. None of that is in conflict with the government setting up laws that protect us and organize society. The church and the government are 2 separate entities having different goals. So I would follow the Constitution unless it directly conflicts with something the bible taught. That is the typical understanding of most christians. Frankly, I would run from any church that called for “social justice” as well, knowing that it is code for “liberal policies are taught here”

I question a lot of Christian churches, and I am a Christian, especially the one that BHO attended in Chicago. I’d run from the USA FOCA proposal, and the new Trojan Horse called the National Health Plan, no abortion words but they will come later.

I question the government saying that Terri Schiavo should die, who do you think you are, God?

Hey Hitler you may have won anyways ( and I hate the evil in Hitler), even with the ones you wanted to kill, and they don’t even know that Margaret Sanger gave you a lot of eugenics (racial hatred). http://www.Maafa21.com

Beck, someday you may have a relationship with your creator, but I still like you anyways.

“The church and the government are 2 separate entities having different goals. So I would follow the Constitution unless it directly conflicts with something the bible taught.”
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So what the Govt is doing now or what the church that called for “social justice” directly or indirectly conflict with something the bible taught?
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“Frankly, I would run from any church that called for “social justice” as well, knowing that it is code for “liberal policies are taught here”
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By all means, please do. But don’t ask your fellow christians to do the same and broadcast it on National TV. And don’t equate their refusal to heed your call, with not following the god’s wishes or with being “evil”. They are just not following your “liberal policies are against god’s word” arguement. In any case, thats a political arguement, not a religious one.
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I dont want to put words in your mouth, But you are basically saying “Don’t go to a church if it’s religious interpretation are against your political leanings”.

addendum to my 191.20@ sirluce~

A) I hope it would be obvious that I also do not thnik that government action can alone be sufficient to assist the poor, even under an ideal government system, which is far from what we have.

B) In all this talk, let’s not forget that our system of health care needs reform not just for the poor. In fact, how it fails the middle-class, even most church-goers, could easily be argued as even more reason to reform it than any, and I sure would love to hear your ideas about how churches and church-goers and Christians are going to change the ills of the private health insurers, who, in the words of Dennis Kucinich, take money to not pay for health care with it.

C) but that, again, is not on-point to what you reported to be your original. I had actually previously mistaken another of your posts for the one containing your original point. But, having acknowleged that I am not one who can confidently know what Jesus did or did not say, and therefore cannot refute your claim that he did not recommend that government take care of the poor, I have “gone on” from there to make other points, including its mirror image that you have not proven that Jesus said for government to NOT help the poor. Yes, you have said that in your mind the inference is strong, but inference is not proof, correct?

D) ronniebray, however, does seem to have more than a little experience with Scripture, and her conclusions seem to square more with mine than yours, and her logic seems far more complete than yours does to me. Perhaps you should pray on it and reprt back on that in the morning.

@ maverick2k9 @ 199.22~

There is a Babtist Church in a river community that I homesteaded in for 14 years. Their teaching included that “if you do attend our church, you are going to hell.” (straight from the minister’s mouth to my face, and he signed my meeting notes to that effect.) Not “if you are not a Babtist”, not “if you do not accept that Jesus Christ is our Savior”, not “If you do not believe in the Bible”, not “if you do not believe in God”, but if you do not attend OUR church.

They almost tore the high school apart, because of the students and their parents in their “flock” beginning a program to prosthylatize (sp) this “truth from Scripture”, telling the other kids this mantra, over and over, breaking apart friendships, romantic relationships, and even school team cohesion.

They could point to the relevant words from the Bible that were the true words of God and His Son that meant this thing. Obviously, it is not without precedent that Christian sects would isolate themselves, and yet also be willing to disrupt the community-building efforts of others.

mycophile 191.20-
1) Mycophile, no one is preventing you from doing a search on an online bible to convince you of what I am saying. This is a factual matter. You can go to an online bible (www.biblegateway.com) and do a search for “government” or “poor” and find all the quotes of Jesus regarding these words. You aren’t helpless. Don’t act like it.
2) Why should Jesus have to tell his followers NOT to petition anything. If he says the church is in charge of helping the poor, he shouldn’t have to say anything else. The church should know automatically that they need to take care of the poor. Not have government do it for them. Sorry, but that goes without saying.
3) Just as you thought I was arrogant for knowing for sure what Jesus said and what he meant, so I thought Amy was arrogant for knowing for sure what Jesus said and what he meant, and that Glenn Beck did not. In addition, I didn’t say that you care not to personally help the poor. I said that IF you didn’t, then get out of the way. Big IF.
4) You will need to put meat to the bones of your argument. I have no idea what you are referring to in this number.
5) I do practice what I preach. One of us is wrong in his approach to helping the poor. One of us is holding true to what Jesus taught in those passages and one of us is distorting those passages. Both of us can’t be right. So our job is to see who has the better arguments to find the best solution. I never suggested that the church should not be doing more to help the poor. It is not perfect. But it has done far more down through the ages to help the poor than any government agency known to man. If you deny that, you deny reality.

sirluce @191.25 ~

1) Of course I am not helpless. I just happen to want to spend my research time on other topics.

Sorry to hear that you would put so much credence in a false god like the internet. I have taken you at your word as to what the Bible sez Jesus said, just as I have taken ronniebray at hers. It is your iron-clad belief in what those words MEAN, and what the ramifications are of those words that I take issue with. I happen to find ronnie’s take on both of those things to be far more believable and logical to me, based on the persepctives gained from my life (or lives?) so far(btw, I find it moteworthy that you not responding to her). I am not intersted in debating the menaings in Scripture — I am interested in how people conduct themsleves.

2) I 100% disagree with your take on the inferences from Jesus being reported to have only told his followers the church is in charge of helping the poor. I do not agree that it goes without saying that would mean Jesus meant that the governmetn should NOT help the poor. That would just plain defy the ruels of logic. What you suggest as a logical conclusion IS a common intuitive mistake made by those not schooled in logic, but it IS an error in logic, I assure you. If I am told that I should take my garbage to the dump myself, I do not evenn INFER, let alone feel commanded, that my neighbor should not take my garbage and put it in his can along with his which he pays a garbage truck to pick up and take to the dump. Besides, how do you know that Jesus did not say more on the matter? Is there a passage in the Bible that sez that every single message fromn Jesus’ mouth is contained therein?

3) I caught your point about Amy the first time you wrote it for me, thank you. I was not writng to Amy about Amy, I was writing to you about you. If you had wanted me to stick to writng about Amy, you should never have written about Jesus.

4) You will need to put meat to the bones of your argument. I have no idea what you are referring to in this number.

5) “One of us is wrong in his approach to helping the poor?” You risk being relgated to discard pile of my choices of whom to discourse if you truly believe that. The strength of community is DIVERSITY. ALL HANDS ON DECK. No one approach is going to solve the enormous problems. (Until, that is, Judgement Day, right?) “One of us is holding true to what Jesus taught in those passages and one of us is distorting those passages.” Oh yeah? What if we are BOTH distorting them? Again, though, YOU are the only one between the two of us that is reporting what those passages say. I have been claiming you are not thinking logically even based upon what you report they are.

It is quite fair of you to write that if I deny that the church has done more down through the ages than any government has, that I deny reality. That construction is tit–for-tat in response to my having written to you that if you think that should the government stop helping the poor and not tax us for helping the poor that the church would take up the then even more enormous task even as well, and now way do better. I could tell you that I believe that down through the ages the church has also done enormous harm to everybody but the rich, but so what? It is TODAY, not past ages, that we are living in. Are we not learned, motivatred, clever, and capable enough to put on a full-court press that would make almost everyone a winner?

whoops, hit the “submit” button too soon.

to finish my #5, I would like to clarify that when I had claimed that the church’s record of getting the job done was far from adequate, I was referring to modern times in America, not through the ages. Nice try for an fake double-reverse, though!

4) I left your response to my #4 in, instead of overwriting it with my attempt at calrity for you. But sine you apparently have little knowledge of the field of structured logic, it may take me a while to explain it in brief, and my supper awaits. I shall retunr to that task later.

Enough of this one already! Time to put this puppy to bed and change the subject!

There are as many Gods as there are minds to conceive of a God! Man created God in Man’s image. Man created Government in the image of organized crime. God has no business in Government. Man has chosen to have Government take care of his needs, because God fails to do so. If Government regulated healthcare is wrong, then all Government regulations are wrong, and all people prosecuted for crimes have been wronged by the Government, and all taxes paid are wrong. So were is my money? I want it all back right NOW!

I agree sirluce.
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“I don’t have any issue with the government having a certain role in society. But when it starts to do the jobs that Jesus gave to the church, I object to it’s intrusion. As a christian, I am supposed to.”
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So let’s get the word God off of all Government related objects and institutions, and get that damn 10 Commandments out of the Judicial Branch of the Government. Lets remove ALL wording from ALL legal documents that imply or state anything about God. Lets also get rid of the pledge of allegiance. I hated being forced to do that in school. Lets tax churches because they coerce recipients of their charity into participation in God and church.

Well.., on the issue of interpreting Bible, God, Jesus Christ, whether long ago or now, I have come to this conclusion: I interpret Jesus Christ moving through my heart and telling me that a unified effort of Democracy with all my fellow brothers and sisters to improve the life of this generation and future generations to come through our chosen form of Government is the right thing to do. If he changes his mind in my heart, then I have one question for him…When are you going to get of your damn ass and come and heal us?
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Did you ever hear that story about the guy who drowned because he was waiting for God to save him? I’ll leave it up to someone else to tell it.

Sir Luce,

There are not the words “trinity” “abortion”, any singular statement condemning slavery. or anything about civil rights, yet, you are very likely to be pro-life (you have not said such) if understand correctly your interpretation of Christianity involves the Trinity and I would extremely strongly suspect that in a hypothetical situation if either civil rights for minorities were being threatened with outright reversal or if slavery were threatening to come back to America (obviously VERY hypothetically) you would with your church oppose such injustices.

If any of those are true, those are all older versions of social justice.

What you are saying is that through churches opposing abortion (in 2010) supporting civil rights (1950s and 1960s) opposing slavery (1860s) is non-Christian since for all of these things you could have just gone home and prayed or worked through non-government agencies to end these things (like buy up slaves and free them, in theory) or you are saying that modern social justice is a far different concept but do not say why.

In your description, you would be saying that Martin Luther King Jr should have not used churches for the social justice of that time and, if he wanted to, gone outside of his church and not use his authority as a minister and lead the movement separate from his ministry or that this is a special exception.

Pick which?

Are all of the previous things and abortion things which should not be handled in or through a church or is this a special exception.

If you acknowledge that dramatically decreasing poverty would not leave churches no good deeds left to be done, then why is this a special exception?

Christians and liberals had this common ground.

This meant that we would only disagree in politics on the details of HOW we would work to end or reduce poverty not THAT we should work to end poverty.

Now, these new conservative can have their bible in one hand and an axe cutting welfare in the other.

You’re way of thinking seems to completely new and SCARY.

@ gysgt213:
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“Glenn Beck is exploiting people who believe in Jesus and also those that feel threatened by the poor.
He doesn’t hate Jesus. I would bet that hating Jesus has never entered Glenn’s mind. He is not that deep. But then again he doesn’t have to be.
He just has to be savvy enough to use peoples’ fear and ignorance against them.
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“While its nice to see Christian leaders pushing back, it really matters about as much [as] liberals pushing back against Beck.
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———-
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As much as I hate to introduce a disagreeable not into these august proceedings, I have a different perspective and would like to share it with you.
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I agree with your statement that Beck does not hate Jesus, but I do not see him lining up behind Jesus and walking the way Jesus walked.
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Jesus was divisive, alhtough his intention was not to divide but to unite. The core element of Christianity is reconciliation; it reconciles man to God through the atonement of Christ and reconciles man to man so that man can be reconciled to God. A man that will not embrace his brother will not be embraced by God.
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Jesus said, “I come not to bring peace, but a sword … ” But it was not Christ’s intention to divide humanity, but to unite it under God.
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Yet Jesus knew that some would hear his voice and follow him and some would hear his voice and reject him, and follow him not.
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Beck is divisive in the same way that a crowbar [pry-bar] is. The nature of the instrument is to separate, and that is why Satan has been called a pry-bar [US], because he separates people from people, and people from God.
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With all the goodwill towards Mr Beck that I can muster, and it is considerable, he is a faulty thinker. His logic does not work because it rests on a series of false premises, and thus any conclusion he reaches is also false.
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Beck’s talent is to be an effective demagogue, a position for which no talent, no education, no expertise, and no reasoning ability is required. It is necessary only that a rabble-rouser [demagogue] has his or her finger on the pulse of popular sentiment and can then create a scenario that panders to the lowest form of human response, fear, xenophobia, and jealousy. At doing this Beck is particularly gifted.
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Yet he is virtually always out of kilter, and reaches conclusions that his evidence, such as it is, does not support. Appealling to the lowest emotional denominator at the expense of common sense, reason, careful weighing of all [ALL] available evidence, and considering what is and what is not true [not what COULD, MIGHT, or could be DEEMED to be true] is the honest way forward.
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Nazism is the brief name by which Hitlers ‘National Socialist German Workers’ Party’ ['Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei'] supposedly a party of National Socialism, but under Adolph Hitler’s leadership there was no pretension of any form of socialism and from its election in 1933 until the 1945 defeat of Nazi Germany by Great Britain and her Allies Hitler and his Nazis governed by totalitarian methods.
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Paraphrasing Cassius Clay [Muhammud Ali], “If anyone dreams that Nazism was socialism they should wake up and apologise!”
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Back to Beck and back to Jesus: It is not enough to love God, and it is not enough to love Jesus. I will quote the Bible’s teaching on this essential core principle of Christianity – LOVE for ALL.
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1 John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
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1 JOHN 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
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Matthew 5:43-48 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax-gatherers do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more than others Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
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Leviticus 19:16-18 ‘You shall not go about as a slanderer among your people, and you are not to act against the life of your neighbor; I am the LORD. You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him. You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD. (NAS)
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Even under the conditions of the Law God requires His people to love their neighbors. He specifies that they are not to hate their fellow countrymen in their heart. They were allowed to reprove and rebuke a man for practicing evil of course, but vengeance belonged to the LORD.
Mark 7:20-23 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.” (NAS)
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Jeremiah 17:9-10 “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it? I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings. (NKJ)
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Luke 6:27-36 “But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either. Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back. And just as you want people to treat you, treat them in the same way. And if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, in order to receive back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.” (NAS)
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Ephesians 4:26-27 When angry, do not sin; do not ever let your wrath (your exasperation, your fury or indignation) last until the sun goes down. Leave no such room or foothold for the devil give no opportunity to him. AMP
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I John 3:14-19 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
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We know love by this that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has the world’s goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?
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Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. We shall know by this that we are of the truth, and shall assure our heart before Him.
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Christianity is a serious business that cannot be undertaken lightly. A Christian who fancies him or herself as being spiritual, affirming their love and devotion to God without loving their brother is a liar — according to the scripture
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In summary, a believer cannot hate his brother or his enemies. Those who harbour hatred in their heart are malicious deceivers. Those who spread gossip and slander are concealing their own hatred through lying lips.
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Proverbs 26:22-28 The words of a whisperer are like dainty morsels, and they go down into the innermost parts of the body. Like an earthen vessel overlaid with silver dross are burning lips and a wicked heart.
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He who hates disguises it with his lips, but he lays up deceit in his heart. When he speaks graciously, do not believe him, for there are seven abominations in his heart. Though his hatred covers itself with guile, His wickedness will be revealed before the assembly. He who digs a pit will fall into it, and he who rolls a stone, it will come back on him. A lying tongue hates those it crushes, and a flattering mouth works ruin.
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Proverbs 10:11-12 The mouth of the righteous is a fountain of life, but the mouth of the wicked conceals violence. Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all transgressions.
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Christians are NOT allowed to hate other human beings. God ‘requires’ [id est: it is not optional] them to love others, even their enemies, and those who mistreat them.
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Jesus is the ultimate model to follow: in his last moments on the cross he prayed to God to forgive those who were responsible.
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Luke 23:33 – “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”
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Ronnie

I also am LDS, yet I find Brother Becks intemperate rants repulsive and lacking facts. His style is vituperative, his languiage demaning, and his logic non-existent.

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He is the political equivalent of Philastus Hurlburt,. Walter R Martin, Bill Schnoebelen, Ed Decker, John L Smith, Sandra tanner, Loftes Tryk, Hank Haanegraf, Jim Robertson, Doug Harries, and the host of ‘lost touch with reality’ anti-Mormons that will say anything and believe anything about Mormons and Mormonism provided that it is a downright lie.
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But a lie is a lie is a lie whether in the religious field or the political field, and one that professes to be a follower of Jesus Christ had better beware what he peddles as truth lest he be found displeasing God by bearing false witness.
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It is not a matter of whether anyone agrees with Beck, but one of whether what he says is actually true — or untrue.
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Our feelings do not matter; he truth matters because, as Jesus said,
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“Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.”
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Ronnie

Your post suggests that the only reason people were hungry, naked, and unhoused was because they were too lazy to plough, plant, grow, reap, and eat.
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The victims of the Irish Potato Blight Famines were lazy?
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The starving Eritreans are starving because they are lazy?
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The Darfur refugees are dying of starvation because they are lazy, and if the began to plough the ground they would not starve?
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‘Personal responsibility’ is an excellent principle but to see someone fall overboard from a ship at sea and refuse to throw them a life line because they should learn to swim before the sharks get them or they slip under from exhaustion, shouting, “Hang on to your personal responsibility! It will save you!” is directly counter to your position as a therapist.
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Those that need therapy do not have the skills necessary to survive their personal crises and so reach out to a therapist.
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Do you then refuse to treat them and direct them to develop their personal resources so that they need not bother godly folk, but take care of themselves?
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How do you see that as different from refusing to help someone whose land is dust-dry, whose well is dry, whose plough is broken, and whose oxen have died?
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Either therapists are anomal or helpful, and, if they are helpful and/or necessary, the what is wrong with the financially hurt being afforded the right therapy for what ails them, and the same for healthcare?
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If the Lord is God then follow him.
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Ronnie

As an admirer, supporter, contributor, and beneficiary of the UK NHS since its inception I cannot understand why anyone would be afraid of a similar service in the US unless they were afraid of the distortions of a national health service put about by those in the ionsurance industy who can kiss their fat profits goodbye at the same time they can kiss their power to prevent sick policyholders getting life saving medical care goodbye.
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The UK NHS [NHS from this point forward], has the following benefits to recommend it:
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1. It is a universal service that denies no one.
2. It is free at all points of delivery
3. No one is denied treatment on grounds of age, sex, pre-existing conditions, lifestyle, occupation, religion, colour, political persuasion, or you name it
4. Every person chooses their own GP [PCP] .
5. There is not, never has been, and never will be one single bureaucrat standing between any patient and their doctors.
6. It is not possible to deny treatment to anyone.
7. The NHS’s standard of care is far higher than that available in the US.
8. There are significantly fewer iatrogenic and nosokomiagenic deaths than in the US.
9. Waiting lists are ancient history
10. PCPs [GPs] make home visits every day for patients that cannot get to their surgeries [offices].
11. No one is denied treatment on account of age or prognosis
12. Prescription medicines are not paid for at cost, but every prescribed medicine costs one uniform price regardless of manufacturer’s charges to the NHS
13. at age 60 whether working or retired [makes no difference] everyone receives free prescription medicines sine die.
14. Person diagnosed with chronic or terminal illness of any age receive free meds, prosthetics, nursing equipment, special beds, mattresses, lifting equipment, &c.
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This is neither Trojan Horse, a sprat to catch a mackerel, a communist plot, a Satanic cabal, a witches sabbat, nor anything akin to evil, unless the saving of life and the restoration to health of the sick is evil per se.
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It is not necessary to be a deist or any other kind of ‘ist’ to recognise the power for good this programme would be in the lives of ALL Americans.
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Try to recognise the difference between the legal system and ‘the government.’ Emotionalism does not make good laws.
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Hitler won many things, for a season, but he did not win the battle for the hearts and minds of decent people, and if you were old enough to have been anywhere close to the great evil he brought to the world and had been touched by it then you might feel inclined to be less glib about him and his evils.
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All that is necessary for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing.
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Ronnie
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iamsource@191.28, 29, & 30~

first, I led you to expect a rap triggered by your “ignorance” post, and thought I would do that tonight, but a friend down on their luck called hours ago and I drove to take them food and counsel.

this moment’s point is that the style you used in these three posts is one of my favorites to use with ideologues, whether “right”, “left” or “unclassified”, when circumstances present opportunity. I have yet to see it work on any with mental illness, however (such as my own son) . Years ago I named it after a friend who used it quite effectively in institutional group decision making meetings, and I am surprised I did not think of using it myself here. I will finish the path I took, however.

sirluce @ 191.25 (4)~

upon review of my presentation, I have to admit I mis-characterized it. It actually relied on proof by equivalent mootness mixed with proof by contradiction, and thus should have been much more linearly organized.

I have prepared it more thusly, and will post it next for completeness of process, but I no longer feel it necessary for our discussion, because, after carefully re-reading your posts, I see your “narrow” point to be that “the church is Jesus’ agent to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, not the government . . .Jesus didn’t see any need for the government to get involved. . . .(and thus) the church should know automatically that they need to take care of the poor. Not have government do it for them.”

Although since you claim that the reason you raised that point was to defend Beck (“My original post was in direct response to the article “Why does Glenn Beck Hate Jesus” which presupposes that Amy Sullivan knows what Jesus taught and it is in conflict with what Glenn Beck is fighting for. I find that to be just as arrogant and judgmental as you find my statements, so I came to Beck’s defense.”) I have to ask if Jesus clearly said that his followers should “run as fast as you can from any church that preached social or economic justice because those were code words for Communism and Nazism.” And just what about Amy’s report that Beck “managed to outrage Christians in most mainline Protestant denominations, African-American congregations, Hispanic churches, and Catholics–who first heard the term “social justice” in papal encyclicals and have a little something in their tradition called “Catholic social teaching.” (Not to mention the teaching of a certain fellow from Nazareth who was always blathering on about justice…)” supposed that Amy knew what Jesus had said (she was reporting on the opinion of those other self-described Christians, not her own Bible study. Did you perhaps err in your taking of issue with Amy? Is not her title “Does Glenn Beck Hate Jesus”, although as I already said, jouranlistically opportunistic, still yet a way to tell us that there is a backlash against what Beck said by many who, like you, believe they know wat Jesus said but it is differnt thatn what you believe that Jesus said and they believe that what Beck said is in consistent with their belief of what Jesus said?

So I discard your taking of issue with Amy and call irrelevant its connection to Beck

And then I take no issue with your narrow point. In fact, I will applaud you, Jesus’s dutiful follower, all the way in your efforts to feed the hungry and clothe the poor. And I will not fault you in the least if you do not ask the government to do it for you, either by action or inaction. But I will look for the same respect from you for my efforts to feed the hungry and clothe the poor, including if I happen to ask my government to add the collective weight of my fellow citizens and our government service infrastructure to my individual efforts.

I did notice that you went beyond your narrow point, though, to ask for those that do not share your view (that Jesus commanded that only the church do the job) to get out of the way and let those of you who do believe that make it so. If by that you mean get out of the way and let you feed the hungry and clothe the naked, then I fail to see how I, for instance, am in the way of that by finding fault with your logic regarding the ramifications of your understanding of what Jesus said. If you mean get out of the way and let you prevent the government from feeding the hungry and clothing the poor, you would first have to convince me that you and I will do the job well enough that no effort from the goverment will be neccessary to compliment it with, and of that I am skeptical.

sirluce @ 191.25(4)

As promised, whether well done or flawed. But. please, remember these are based only upon what YOU have said that Jesus said, not on any interpretation of Scripture on my part::

First, the proof by contradiction:

Assume: Jesus’s instruction to the people who would become the church to feed the hungry and clothe the naked = Jesus’s instruction that the government should not feed the hungry and clothe the people.

Church people in the USA are part of the people of the USA. Therefore, if the government of the USA is a government of and by the people, then the USA church people are part of the government of the USA and part of governing the USA. Therefore, part of the government of the USA should feed the hungry and clothe the people.

Since a part of the government of the USA cannot feed the people without the government of the USA feeding the people, this contradicts the assumption, therefore the assumption is false.

In other words, Jesus’ instruction to the people who would become the church to feed the hungry and clothe the naked does not equal an instruction that the government should not feed the hungry and clothe the people.

—————————————————————

Now the proof by equivalent mootness:

For this “proof”, I shall first refer to your opening sentences in your post # 191:

“Who was Jesus talking to whenever he talked about feeding the hungry and clothing the naked? Was it the Roman government? Was it Roman Senators?”

I shall take the liberty of assuming that the second and third questions were rhetorical and that your answer to both was “no

Assume: Jesus’s lack of mention of a government role in feeding the hungry and clothing the people = Jesus’s instruction for the government not to feed the hungry and clothe the naked.

If the government of the USA is not a government of and by the people, then the church people in the USA (who are part of the people of the USA) have no say in whether or not the government of the USA feeds the hungry and clothes the people even if they are able to convince all the other people in the USA that the government of the USA should not feed the hungry and clothe the people, because none of those other people have any say in the matter either. And since Jesus did not speak to the government about the matter, the government then received no, and cannot now receive, authoritative instruction not to feed the hungry and clothe the people.

Therefore, Jesus’ instruction for the government not to feed the hungry and clothe the naked is moot, and thus so is his lack of mention of a government role in feeding the hungry.

“render unto caesar that which is caesar’s, render unto the Lord that which is the Lord’s.

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Sister Chandler,
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I’ll see your providentliving.org and raise you http://www.google.com/search?q=lds+philanthopies&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
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Provident living is a righteous principle taught to help families become self-sustaining by preparing to meet anticipated and unexpected need that might come upon them due to circumstances beyond their control, eg, famine, natural disaster, war, pestilence, etc.
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However, when need arises and family resources are insufficient or are exhausted and can no longer cover their needs, the answer is not:
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“You should have stored more!
“You have failed to be self-sufficient!
“You have been improvident!” &c.
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providentliving/org’s page header has an illustration of Jesus raising a covering on a man obviously not in the best condition or circumstances.
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I’ll bet you a bowl of green Jell-O to a Chicken Casserole that Jesus is not lecturing the man on Provident Living or Self-Sufficiency, but is preparing to render direct assistance to the unfortunate.
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What think ye of Christ? Is he an abstract theorist or a practical Saviour?
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How do we pick up our cross and follow him – to death if needs be – without rising from our beds of comfort and entering the fray?
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We are probably not far away from each other’s position, just on the opposite sides of Glenn Beck. How is it that he is permitted to divide us?

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Ronnie

191.22-maverick
No. What I’m saying is that everyone who decides to go to church needs to pick one that is responsible in its interpretation of the new testament. The church is not a political organization per se. But when the government buts in where the church was supposed to go, then they can use their votes to back up their values by preventing the government from taking over their jobs in feeding the hungry and clothing the naked.

This parable is told to exemplify what manner of men and women Christians ought to be: Humble and childlike.
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For the haughty will not hear, the proud will not see, and the vain will not trust. But the pure heart and mind of a child will trust, love, believe, hear, see, and obey.
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‘Except ye become as little children, ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.’
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‘And he setteth a child in the midst of them saying, suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of heaven.’
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Ergo, Christians are to be ‘child-like,’ teachable, trusting, pure, calmisn, bringers of comfort and peace.
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Christians are not to be ‘childish,’ petulant, arrogant, prideful, resentful, angry, bitter, ungrateful, or seething with enmity.
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Blessing upon your ancient pate.
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Ronnie

I’m late to the party here, but Glenn was making a very correct point that “social justice” is not a religious term. It is a political term. Jesus deals with the individual. If individuals were kind and helpful to the people around them we wouldn’t need government at all.

Jesus didn’t teach about government-run social justice. He taught about love. He was trying to get people to learn to lovingly control themselves and share of themselves from the inside, not by means of exterior restraint or exterior force, as in the case of “social justice.”

If your church is teaching “social justice” as a proof of your goodness or acceptance before God, then RUN FROM IT! It is shiney and attractive heresy! Christ had to die to reconcile us to God. No other sacrifice was relevant or sufficient. We do not love our neighbors because we have to! Like Jesus, we should be loving our neighbors because WE WANT TO!!!

“Social Justice” is an attack on individual free will, and the term is used by liberals in a deliberate effort to confuse and deceive the public. It sounds so nice. Who could argue against it with only a 5-second soundbite? And that is the point!

191.23 mycophile-
A) I don’t have any problem with the idea of the government being a “safety net” for extreme cases to help them get back on their feet. But it should be very minimal so they can get plugged into a private charity that can help them more fully.
B) For the middle class, we can help by instituting many of the reforms the Republicans have already said they agreed with: going across state lines to get insurance, tort reform, small businesses being able to band together to get better rates, etc.
C) If Jesus had to say everything you couldn’t do, it would take eternity and he didn’t have that much time on earth. He focused on what he felt were the most important things a Christian could do to help out his fellow man, and then expected the church to follow through. When someone tells you to do something, that doesn’t mean you abdicate that responsibility to another person or group. Sorry, but that seems to be common sense to me.
D) If she wants to respond to something I’ve said, nothing is stopping her. So far, she hasn’t put a response on one of my posts, and as you can see I must have struck a cord because I have enough to respond to simply by answering everyone who answered my original posts.

191.24 mycophile-
And this is relevant because….

191.26 mycophile-
1) If you are going to enter into a discussion about what Jesus said and did not say, which was my original post, then I guess you will need to be able to have some ability to look at his words. As far as ronnie is concerned, I don’t seek out people to have dialogues with. I answered this article because I thought I had something valuable to add to the conversation. If she wants to respond to my post, which she hasn’t done as of last check, then I will be happy to respond to her. If you are not interested in debating the meaning of scripture, I’m not sure why you responded to my post since that was the main thrust of my original post.
2) “What you suggest as a logical conclusion IS a common intuitive mistake made by those not schooled in logic.” Stop with the patronization. We are both rational intelligent people. I believe we can have a conversation without you acting a little bit superior. It is interesting that on the one hand you say you don’t have expertise in scripture, but suddenly when it comes to parsing what Jesus said and what he meant, now you are an expert. You can’t have it both ways. If I need to combine both of my arguments together, then I will. Jesus told the church to take care of the poor, and his mode of operation was to have them do it voluntarily out of passion of their love for Him. A government run health care system if passed is not voluntary. You do not have the option of opting out. So however you look at it, it is against Jesus’ teachings.
3) Amy said that “Glenn Beck Hates Jesus” She brought up Jesus, not I.
5) I see government as an intrusion in this area that will ruin our country, our economy and our freedom all for a minority of people that could have been helped in other ways. Our health care system is the best as far as quality in the world. I don’t believe that you replace a reliable car that has a gas leak. I think you repair the leak. Our health care system needs a good tune up, but it doesn’t need to get thrown out for the latest model, especially when we don’t have the money to get a new car.

191.27 mycophile-
Your “superior” attitude is showing up again. It’s time to take it down a few thousand notches.

It’s funny you,should say that, emmma12, because the title of this piece by Amy is typical of the thinking of Beck himself [please excuse the oxymoron].
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Let me give you an example. On March 9th 2010 the doyen of the insane right, Rush Limbaugh, claimed that Obama was moving to ban all Americans from fishing!
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Glen Beck took the lead from Vicogoth and said exactly the same thing on the 10th of March 2010.
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Although neither Limbaugh or Beck actually came out with the line “Obama hates Americans” the intent of their claims was that President Obama was set to sign into law an executive order that would ban all Americans from Fishing in and on the mainland’s water course and lakes, and in or off US coastal waters.
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Where is the truth in their reports? Truth does matter? I believe we both know the answer to that question. But since Beck supporters tend to believe whatever he says is founded on truth it is fitting that some germane facts are introduced. When they are, they will speak for themselves and demonstrate that Beck is not a fact-ckecker, but a demagogue who is against any policy or person that does not support his own Hieronymous Bosch worldview.
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Facts:
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1. On his March 9, 2010, talk show, Rush Limbaugh claimed that, “fishing is on the verge becoming a privilege controlled by Barack Obama.” He went on to say that he’s only had a few experiences with the sport, but that, “I know a lot of people, former professional athletes, who go into shock after hearing they can’t go fishing anymore because of Obama.”
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The roots of Limbaugh’s explosive rant against Obama actually started life as a short piece on ESPNOutdoors.com, that was then picked up by conservative blogmeisters, and from the rightists anti-Obama blogs it tottered on to Limbaugh’s radio show, and from there it spread like the Bubonic Plague to other shock-jock shows including Glenn Beck’s evening program on Fox News.
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Enter the Dragon – AKA ‘Chinese Whispers!’
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Limbaugh cites an article on ESPNOutdoors.com on March 9, 2010, written by Bob Montgomery saying:
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“The Obama administration will accept no more public input for a federal strategy that could prohibit U.S. citizens from fishing the nation’s oceans, coastal areas, Great Lakes, and even inland waters.”
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This quote was on Media Matters, but Montgomery did a bit of fact-checking and what he discovered caused him to significantly modify his earlier position, so that his original language is no longer on the ESPNOutdoors site.
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Montgomery was writing about Obama’s Interagency Ocean Policy Task Force, a 24-member group headed by the chair of Obama’s Council on Environmental Quality. In June 2009, Obama created the task force to develop a national policy to protect, maintain, and restore oceans, coasts and the Great Lakes.
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President Obama asked the group to recommend a framework for improved stewardship, and effective coastal and marine spatial planning. The group released a draft of its recommendations in December 2009.
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Among other things, it recommended the creation of nine regional planning areas to carry the framework of their recommendations.
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There is nothing more sinister to this than the fact that the Obama administration is drafting better plans for waterway conservation. Spatial planning simply put means making sure that our waterways are used in the most economically and environmentally friendly way.
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And, if a body of water has no biological value, perhaps it could be better used as a site for a wind farm, or if there’s a vulnerable coral reef in the area, the framework will help determine what kinds of fishing can be done on the surface so as not to disturb the important ecosystem beneath.
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That could mean changes in fishing practices in some areas, depending on the location, the local economy and specific ecological problems. The draft states that plans “are expected to vary from region to region according to the specific needs, capacity, and issues particular to each region.”
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In less time than it takes to say “Spin doctor!” or “Crucify Obama!” conservative bloggers took up the story and mangled it beyond recognition: a practice that while not the sole province of the right, has for the past fifteen months become their favourite playground.
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Michelle Malkin screamed: “Sacrificing jobs for the green agenda. Conducting Kabuki theater on public input. Business as usual for the Obama White House.”
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The Gateway Pundit whined: “Obama’s latest assault on your rights– He wants to ban sport fishing. Barack Obama has a message for America’s 60,000,000 anglers – We don’t need you.”
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The mess of overboiled cabbage slithered its slimy way into to the foetid maws of of the Lone Vicogoth and his never-far-away sidekick Beck Silver-Tongue, who stated implicitly on his March 10, 2010, show that Obama was banning fishing by executive order.
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Beck said: “Obama will no longer listen to the public as he tries to prohibit U.S. citizens from fishing on some of the nation’s oceans, coastal areas and Great Lakes and even some inland waters.”
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Beck positively slavered as he summed up:
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“No more fishing. . . . Some environmentalists want to save the fish.
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Forget about the frickin’ fish! People are losing their rights.”
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FACT:
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President Obama has NOT banned fishing through executive order, and has not expressed any intention of doping so, so Beck is wrong at the top of his voice – AGAIN!
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The resultant firestorm prompted ESPNOutdoors Executive Editor Steve Bowman to issue a statement on the story.
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He wrote that the news organization should have made it clear that the story was an opinion column in a series of stories on the implications of Obama’s new task force.
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“While our series overall has examined several sides of the topic, this particular column was not properly balanced and failed to represent contrary points of view,” Bowman wrote.
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“We have reached out to people on every side of the issue and reported their points of view — if they chose to respond — throughout the series, but failed to do so in this specific column.”
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Media Matters also noted that the first paragraph of Montgomery’s story now reads that the administration’s plan “could prohibit U.S. citizens from fishing some of the nation’s oceans, coastal areas, Great Lakes, and even inland waters.”
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Yet the column still fails to mention that the administration has made NO FINAL DECISIONS on the recommendations. And while the framework could change some fishing practices as Lowell points out, THE DRAFT PROPOSALS DO NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT BANNING RECREATIONAL FISHING as Glenn Beck categorically stated.
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Christine Glunz, spokesperson for the White House Council on Environmental Quality, says:
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“The draft reports issued by the Ocean Policy Task Force have involved extensive stakeholder input and public participation as they were being prepared, which has included the interests of conservationists and the recreational fishing community.
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“These draft reports are not map-drawing exercises, they do not contain a zoning plan, and they do not establish any restrictions on recreational fishing or on public access, nor make any judgments about whether one ocean activity or use is better than another.”
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Eric Schwaab, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s assistant administrator for fisheries, simply stated in a March 10, 2010, statement that:
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“The Ocean Policy Task Force has not recommended a ban on recreational fishing.”
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An opinion piece that argued Obama’s environmental efforts COULD BAN COME FISHING was chopped up, reprocessed and put back together as a claim that Obama WANTS TO BAN ALL FISHING!
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In fact, the draft framework says nothing about banning fishing.
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Beck took an early discussion about the use of waterways and twisted it to make it say that President Obama is outlawing a popular pastime.
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While the panel’s recommendation could change fishing practices in some areas, the framework is still in draft form; the administration has not made any final decisions on what the framework will look like.
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Therefore, in conclusion:
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BECK IS GROSSLY DISTORTING THE TRUTH – AND HE DOES NOT CARE AS LONG AS HE HOLDS HIS RATINGS!
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THE GARMENTS THAT ADORN MR BECK’S LOWER EXTREMITIES ARE IN A STATE OF TOTAL CONFLAGRATION!
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Choose ye this day whom ye will serve, but as for me and my house …

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Ronnie

sirluce

I completely agree with your 191.39

As far as your 191.36 and 191.38 go, not long after I began to do so, I regretted having tried to discuss a discussion of Scripture with someone as sure about its meanings and authority as you seemed to be. I still maintain that I really was not trying to tell you what Scripture said or meant, but instead was intending to point out that how you justified in writing here what it added up to did not seem logical.

The relevance of my 191.24 was intended to be several-fold, but, since you do not yet see any, perhpas that was just wishful thinking on my part. As you see, it was in response to maverik2k9. He had beseeeched you to not complain to your fellow Christians that hold different interpretations of the NT, for not following your (quoting maverick2k9) “liberal policies are against god’s word” arguement. And he had also calimed that you were “basically saying (d)on’t go to a church if it’s (sic) religious interpretation are against your political leanings”.

Having a direct experience with another, rather outrageous in my opinion, instance of intolerance of one Christian view of Scripture for all other views of Scripture, Christian or not, I thought I would share it to augment his point. Perhaps you did not see it as outrageous.

As well, this particular congregation took what I saw as your own “The interpretation of Scripture that I ascribe to is the only correct interpretation” attitude to such an extreme that I hoped if anything mght point out the danger in that to you or to anyone, that maybe it could be such an example.

Also, even though I did not take the tme to really tell the story, I watched first-hand this congregation’s holier-than-thou attitude practically destroy a community. Instead of feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, they tried to scare the living Hell into them (and everyone else, even if those others were doing Jesus’s bidding by feeding the hungry and clothing the naked.) I wish you had been there to set them straight — I was unwilling to attend their church more than once and risk sitting though any more self-serving sermons in order to have a chance of having a chance to love them into thier higher selves.

In overview of all our discussion log, it is all too obvious to anyone, but especially me, that you got my goat. One of the reasons I refrain from entering discussions with those so sure about a particular interpretation of Scripture that justifies self-righteousness is that it brings my own self-righteousness to the fore! I awoke today quite distrubed about how far that reaction in me had gone, and how much sleep I had lost as a result, detracting from my other personal responsibilites.

So, over- and-out on this subject with you. While I still feel that your faith blinds you and limits your ability to accept/support well-intentioned and effective efforts by others to feed the hungry and clothe the poor, I yet applaud your maintenance of civility in the face of my transgressions, and thank you for that.

191.33 mycophile-
This is the crux of the argument. When you ask the government to take care of the poor you force my hand as well, since I have to pay for it just as much as you. So does everyone else that agrees with me. We do not have a choice of whether to give up that money to the government. It has been decided for us. Jesus was in the business of getting people personally involved in feeding the poor because of their convictions, not handing the job to someone else and confiscating money to do it. The whole approach of a government serving as a middle man destroys the whole point of charity. We get something out of helping people personally, not because we decided to give more of our paycheck away. How impersonal and meaningless is that?

191.33 mycophile-
This is the crux of the argument. When you ask the government to take care of the poor you force my hand as well, since I have to pay for it just as much as you. So does everyone else that agrees with me. We do not have a choice of whether to give up that money to the government. It has been decided for us. Jesus was in the business of getting people personally involved in feeding the poor because of their convictions, not handing the job to someone else and confiscating money to do it. The whole approach of a government serving as a middle man destroys the whole point of charity. We personally get something out of helping people personally, not because we decided to give more of our paycheck away. How impersonal and meaningless is that?

Momminator: you were more correct had you said ‘social justice’ is not strictly a religious term. Leaving the impression that it is not a reoigious term or enterprise is as wrong as saying it is strictly a religious matter.

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Social justice is an egalitarian principle that is anathema only to fascists.
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The US Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution are social documents whose primary aim to to secure social justice across the board.
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It is disturbing that someone seemingly au fait with the teachings of Jesus would foster in government that which Jesus was set against.
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If I might address some of your statements that appear contrary to your faith.
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One cannot love one’s neighbour if one is unjust towards that neighbour.
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One cannot love than neighbour if one fails to make provision in the legal contracts that determine the bounds of society relative to the needs of one’s neighbour.
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Jesus dealt with the individual on an individual basis, but the teachings of Jesus extend much further than the circumscribed world in which individuals exist.
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Jesus taught individual AND communal responsibility, extending the scope of the individual Christian’s concern to the community for an excellent reason: because as individuals existing nearby – even next door – to each other, but doing so incoherently, like marbles in the same bag, we are unable to address the concerns of our fellow human beings, and that their collective and individual concerns are the concerns of individuals is not missing from the teachings of Jesus.
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I have cited Matthew 25 and Luke 10 at length so will not do so here. However, you must address the teachings of Jesus in His Parable of Judgement, and consider the implications of the Parable of the Compassionate Samaritan, and then refer to Jesus’ own words to determine what Jesus taught, and what Jesus meant believers to carry from his teachings.
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‘Social Justice’ is an important part of the teachings of the prophets of Israel such as Isaiah, Job, Amos and others that knew God required a communal response to community difficulties.
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Becoming a Christian is not an invitation to become a Cenobite, nor to live in splendid isolation from the human family and ignoring their cries for relief.
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I know of no part of the scriptures that directs believers to take such damaging views of sacred faith.
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You say, “Christ had to die to reconcile us to God.” That is not what Jesus said. He said,
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“I lay down my life – no man taketh it from me, I lay it down of myself.” He also said, “Greater love than this hath no man; that he layeth down his life for his friends.”
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How you convert that into the non-sequitor that churches require members to show their goodness through ‘social justice’ is a puzzle of Byzantine proportions.
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What any church wants is unimportant. What God and Jesus want are important.
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Some individuals earlier in this topic have attempted to the argue that if God doesn’t say he want something it then ir means that God doesn’t want it, and have applied that false premise to God saying nothing about ‘social justice.’
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That point of view – that God has kept his silence about social justice – is only supportable if we resort to use the non-standard two-page edition of the holy bible, for in my full edition it is impossible to fail to see all that God has decided and ordered relative to social justice.
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I suppose that by special pleading it is possible to notionalise a fictional individual in whom politics and religion occupy discrete sections that have no interaction, never meet, and neither informs nor has any impact or effect on the other.
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But we are dealing with normal human beings not the denizens of a Sci-Fi novella.
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The human being I know best is me. Within me politics plays and essential but secondary role to religion. My political philosophy does not inform my spiritual beliefs and practices. Au contraire, my religion informs and guides my political philosophy.
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My understanding of God imposes certain behaviours that can never be overridden by any political consideration.
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The cause of God’s love in me, is the cause of my activities in the political sphere. God loves me, consequently I love the people of the world.
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God loves me enough to bless me beyond anything I could ever merit, and I must do the same for the people of the world.
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God reaches out to me – I reach out to the world’s people.
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God lifts me up, and I must do the same.
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Political theories are usually the work of men’s minds. Spiritual principles are from God’s mind and are devoid of selfishness, brook no denial of mercy and goodness to others, and exact the price God sets on behaviour so that we can be recipients of the great blessings he deigns to repose in us.
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Social justice is not an attack on free will: it is evidence of the exercise of free will in an unselfish way.
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Jesus taught that the dispensers and practitioners of social justice that you so denigrate were those that would be received into heaven as the ‘blessed of my father,’ and that the selfish that would not impart of their time, substance, or food to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, or give shelter to the homeless, would be sent to dwell in everlasting darkness.
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If such teaching is heresy, then Jesus was an heretic and the heresy you warn us to flee from is the Gospel of Love that you make so much of but deem it heretical to practice.
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Either Jesus is right and you are wrong, or else Glenn Beck is right and Jesus is wrong.
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To present social justice as an evil shows a signal lack of comprehension of the term, and displays a saturnine determination to condemn anything with even a tincture of community concern in a government programme, such as feeding the poor, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, providing healthcare, education, welfare benefits, prosthetics, free medicines, free hospital treatments, free hospital stays, free doctor visits, free psychotherapy, free survivor Benefits, free unemployment benefits, financial assistance with housing, low-cost housing projects, and a thousand other government-run welfare programmes whose sole aim it to dispense social justice whatever you might choose to call it, is a shameful thing to do, especially for someone quick to quote and misquote Jesus in defense of their selfish and narrow view of human society.
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If social justice is so Satanic, why didn’t those spiritual giants bring the whole evil system crashing down during their time in the White House?
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Was Reagan a socialist? If not, why did he continue to fund and operate all these socialistic programmes?
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Why didn’t Bush and Bush bring it crashing down when they were in power? Why did they tolerate these Luciferian welfare social justice devilments instead of grinding them into the dust?
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Could it be because they did not see them as evils; that they had more enlightened perspectives than you enjoy?
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Could it be because they saw then as good, beneficial, helpful, and as blessing to those standing in the need of real help, and for those whose ills the combined zeal of your prayer-circle just wasn’t delivering the goods?
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I refer you to the scripture, the Word of God to them that believe:
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Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
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Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
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James 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
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17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
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18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
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19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
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It is not enough to stand on the sidelines and watch people starve and dies because they have no food, no medical care, and do nothing except shout at the devil.
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Social justice is not Godless and God encourages, nay demands, social justice.
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Finally: You wrote:
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“Social Justice” is an attack on individual free will [IT IS NOT!],