Unacceptable Non-Apology

Joe

That is an old problem with conflict and the history of conflict going back centuries or even ages. The best you, America, or the World can do is just to stay out of it. Nobody but Israel and the Palestinians can solve that problem. It’ is up to them to find the solution, if any.

By staying out, you mean, not give Israel billions in Arms aid every year?
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If so, I am all for “staying out”.

Why would Israel change now? It’s not like there will be any consequences for their actions, what with the power of AIPAC and all the apocalyptic fundamentalists behind them. They know the US will give them preferential treatment no matter what they do.

I’m afraid I don’t have much hope that the correct reaction you describe is the one that will happen.

It is such a bizarre situation now where the Religious RW is all for Israel being as provocative and aggressive as possible against the Palestinians and in the rest of the Middle East because they think it will lead to the Rapture. Plus the neocons who never met a War they didn’t like.

Then you add in the segment of Dems who always side with Israel.

What a mess.

Well, at least we know both Clintons are very familiar with Bibi’s tricks.

Joe

And there is another thing.

I remember another few incidents when you say “it would give the impression that these Israelophiles approve of foreign leaders who insult the American Vice President (and, by extension, the President).”
You did not have the same viewpoint when someone threw a shoe at the Former President.

OK, fair enough someone threw a shoe at the statue of the present incumbent in Indonesia the other day.

But as far as insults in general are concerned, there is no evidence that the scorn is aimed at America or the American people.

http://ikejakson.wordpress.com/2009/08/08/the-day-the-students-laughed-in-china/

They laughed at Geithner then. Don’t generalize to gain the moral upper ground, Joe. It’s most unbecoming. Every politician gets what he deserves.

One of the reasons that distinctions are drawn between true and false analogies is because not all analogies are true. For example, someone who throws a shoe at you, after you have invaded and destroyed their country, on false pretenses, is not the same thing as being insulted by someone who is supposedly your friend and ally, whose country you have never invaded and destroyed.

From the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, June 2009, Sam Bahour:

For anyone yearning for an Israeli government with the courage and the will to end Israel’s 41-year military occupation of Palestinians, the long-anticipated appointment of Lieberman to minister of foreign affairs leaves much to be desired. The former nightclub bouncer is referred to, only half in jest, by an Israeli friend of mine as “Doberman.”

For Western onlookers, it was undoubtedly odd that the top vote-getter, Tzipi Livni, was marginalized in favor of the runner-up, said to be in a stronger position to form a governing coalition.

Livni rather quickly conceded, opting to join the opposition. She made a smart move, as much of the world repudiates Israel’s dangerous drift to the right. Livni, at best, would have been a mere fig leaf for an extremist government. For Palestinians, meantime, none of the political acrobatics means much. Livni’s entire political history is just as violent toward Palestinians as Netanyahu’s, despite her peace-lexicon façade.

Palestinians find themselves in a familiar posture, waiting—or more like Waiting for Godot. I daresay even Beckett would have balked at this one. Palestinians have been dispossessed, occupied and brutalized year in, year out since 1948 by an Israel that continues to talk peace while waging war. The roster of political players changes, but Israeli intransigence remains.

One thing Palestinians are not waiting for is some enlightened Israeli prime minister who will step forward and end their misery; they’ve already seen all kinds: from Israel’s first prime minister, Polish-born David Ben-Gurion, who candidly said, “We must expel the Arabs and take their places”; to Israel’s first woman prime minister, Ukrainian-born Golda Meir, acclaimed for her infamous remark that “There is no such thing as Palestinians”; to Israel’s first native-born prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin, who, during the first intifada, ordered his military to “break the [Palestinian demonstrators’] bones” and then went on several years later to sign the historic Oslo peace agreement—which was inordinately date-driven—only to announce a few days after signing it that there are no sacred dates. Palestinians have also been around the track once before with Netanyahu’s overly-sleek, propaganda-driven personality.

Now Netanyahu seems to have a new gambit: diverting our attention from the ever-more- entrenched military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip with an “economy first” approach to peace.

The message, today, is clearer than ever before: Israel’s new government will let the occupied Palestinians live, but just barely, and in a political headlock. Netanyahu and Lieberman evidently forget one revealing chapter in their own history, a lesson accidentally taught, and at great cost to all, by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon: There cannot be peace and security until Israel ends its occupation.

For true negotiations to begin, the Israelis must remove the boot of military occupation from the necks of Palestinians. Then and only then can these two Semitic cousins sit down and carve out a model for peaceful coexistence. If international law was respected, the framework for a final resolution to this pestering conflict is already on the books by way of dozens of U.N. resolutions dating back to 1947; however, today, the final number of states to emerge from peace negotiations is less important than making sure the Palestinian people survive to enjoy a post-conflict reality.

We are left with the central axiom Israeli prime ministers love to deny: There is no military solution to this conflict. Israel has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that it cannot win by relentless military force, and the Palestinians—against all odds—refuse to lose the quest for their freedom and equal rights. One more campaign to cover up Israel’s continuing occupation and the attendant war crimes only sets the stage for more death, more destruction, and more fruitless waiting. The world must act rationally today to salvage what remains to be salvaged. President Obama has better roles to play than a 21st century Godot.

Ike~
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There is a certain moral obligation to use one’s power and influence to curb the abuse of human rights and to put an end to violations of international law. Just as you have no qualms with the repudiation of Hamas by US officials, the international community’s isolation of the Hamas leadership, complete with sanctions and diplomatic rejection, you should likewise have no qualms with the United States isolating the Israeli leadership and sanctioning Israel as a means of pressuring Israel into adhering to international law. The occupation is illegal. The annexation of land is illegal. The blockade of Gaza is an act of war. Arbitrary detentions and arrests are illegal. The separation wall, built largely on sovereign Palestinian lands, is illegal. These are not simply matters that the Unites States should ignore or stay out of. Not so long as we provide $4.3 billion in annual aid, along with diplomatic cover for war crimes at the United Nations. No, Ike, we are complicit in these crimes and we pay for them not only in monetary terms, but in the daily rise of anti-American rage in the Muslim world because of participation in this. If we can rightly isolate Hamas for its war crimes, we can and should do the same to Israel.

Every time I think of the Israeli-Arab conflict, I am reminded of what my mother used to tell my brother and I when we would fight over a toy:

“If you two can’t share, neither of you will get to play with it.”

With those words, she would take the toy from us and it would never be seen again.

I remember another few incidents when you say “it would give the impression that these Israelophiles approve of foreign leaders who insult the American Vice President (and, by extension, the President).”
You did not have the same viewpoint when someone threw a shoe at the Former President.
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The shoe was not thrown by a leading member of the Iraqi government.

Instructive map and comments about Israel from Daily Dish.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/03/goldblog-splutters.html

Joe, I have to disagree with you here. While I am appalled at the audacity of Israel making this announcement at the beginning of Biden’s visit, thereby turning it into an unmistakable insult, the issue of Israel’s building in this particular neighborhood in Jerusalem is not so clear cut.

Though referred to as “East Jerusalem”, Ramat Shlomo, actually north of the center of the city, is one of many Jewish neighborhoods built beyond the ’67 borders, actually constituting a majority of the Jewish population of Jerusalem. They have never been regarded as settlements by Israel, as they are within the municipal borders which Israel annexed in 1968. In any reasonable future partition of the city, these neighborhoods would be within Israeli held territory.

Far more egregious Israeli moves involve takeovers of buildings in Arab neighborhoods like Silwan, Sheikh Jarah, and Jabal Mukaber. These are territories that have been entirely Arab until very recently, with aggressive moves by extremist right-wing Jewish settler groups trying to establish a Jewish presence in these areas. (The notion of Arab and Jewish neighborhoods no doubt seems deplorable when viewed from afar, but it stems from historical reality pre-1948, where each group built in its own areas, as well as the fairly arbitrary cease-fire lines determined in the 1949 armistice.) Regarding these cases, the US should diplomatically but forcefully pressure Israel into ceasing such efforts, since they are calculated to disrupt any future division of the city.

Building within Jewish neighborhoods of Jerusalem, on the other hand, should be accepted, if not openly condoned. If the US insists on Israel halting construction in the areas where virtually every Israeli considers non-negotiable, the current distrust in which the Israeli public holds the Obama administration will turn into outright hostility, and any chance (however slim) of progress towards an agreement will be quashed. (I don’t mean this to sound like an ultimatum, but simply an observation of the likely Israeli reaction to such a diktat.)

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2008/08/18/movers-and-shakers/

Greuven–

You’re right in the particulars, but wrong on the larger point: Israel has to stop making unilateral decisions about what neighborhoods it will control. It is entirely likely that Ramat Shlomo will be part of Israel after the borders are settled–but that is a matter to be negotiated, and Israel seems to have no interest in settling the borders or making peace.

I also don’t remember Klein approving of the shoe throwing.
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I was a severe Bush critic and I certainly didn’t.

Israeli distrust of the Obama administration? Progress toward agreement? Turn to outright hostility?
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Sorry, but that does indeed sound like an ultimatum, and it is a very empty one. The USA is not the only government to which Israel would to well to pay attention. Like, the rest of the world as well. Get it? Probably not.

Joe, your larger point is absurd as a matter of logic and it’s bad politics. Even Andrew Sullivan admits Jerusalem has been majority jew since the 1870′s. It’s absurd to say they cannot expand in Jerusalem on Jewish property. Because of that’s it’s bad politics. The left seems to believe they can isolate Netanyahu and weaken his coalition merely by acting peeved. As if the Israeli people’s top concern are the good graces of the USA President. That’s important but not more important than the advancement of the Jewish State. This expansion is supported within Israel and Obama is merely a bully. Clinton was able to out maneuver BiBi by making him unpopular while building and maintain the trust of the jewish people. This wasn’t BiBi’s doing and Obama has done nothing to gain the trust of the jewish people. Quite the opposite.

The left acts as if nothing has changed since Cliton left off. The fact is the Israeli electorate has shifted substantially right while Palestine has split into two entities at war with each other. Clinton had a unified leadership at Camp David. The jews have no such person to negotiate with. The desire to hold talks still exists but expectations are extremely low. Even if this delayed talks, very unlikely, those talks aren’t expected to amount to much. They’re not even direct talks.

Obama has made far too much of this. It make the Palestinians less likely to talk and the Israeli people even less like to support Obama. BiBi has been the more reasonable party. Clinton made BiBi less popular in Israel. Obama has made him more popular. The US President matters a great deal but he’s only a President. He needs Congress to enforce any policy changes and he’s got less than 3 years left. They can wait him out.

They can wait until hell freezes over. It has little to do with liberals, or Obama (who is not a liberal), and everything to do with fouling their own nest. As I said above, Israel has wasted, spent, all of the sympathy they owned throughout the world by illegal acts and war crimes. They did that all by themselves and to continue down that path will probably lead to their destruction.

James,

I don’t think it’s an ultimatum. The fact is Obama is very limited in what he can do. Support for Israel is very deep in the USA and that includes in the Congress. Obama is far outside the mainstream with his embrace of Islam and scorn for Israel. He could try cutting aid but that would be very unpopular and very likely risk a congressional over-ride. This will be especially true after November. Obama is not a king and he is not going to be there forever. BIBi is far superior as a political player who so far has totally marginalized Obama within Israel.

This was a brilliant effort by the Israeli right wing to taunt Obama and he swallowed the bait without thinking. He probably still doesn’t get Israeli domestic politics and doesn’t care. BiBi gets to play the reasonable man, the bigger man, more importantly a man of the center. Not of the right nor of what has become the center-left. The old left is null and void. As long as he owns the middle he will remain the PM. As long as Obama is radically anti-Israel he will have zero influence. BiBi will of course be playing Ghandi from now until forever that’ s merely a holding pattern keeping Obama in neutral.

Well said christophermgomez.

“I wish I wrote that,” as the old cliché goes, so I will say ditto every word and the order in which you penned them. I am the middle one of three sons all two years apart on both sides of me and we had a father like that. There is an incident engraved in my memory; we did not understand his hard logic at the time but we learned to love each other and still do. Elder brother left us last year and I shall be 70 come August 3rd this year.

We can be sure there are rights and wrongs on both sides in the sad tale that is under discussion but fact remains that every White House incumbent since Former President Carter tried to no avail. We simply don’t know what the solution is.

Perhaps I should have made my comment clearer. It was not aimed at any Government or President but at Joe’s inflammatory remarks. “Stoking the fires of hell” is not the solution.

America and for that matter the World should stay out of it, also for that matter get out of Iraq and Afghan, and each guard own International Borders, safeguarding its own citizenry at home. It sounds nice to say that “America has a duty” but it rings hollow in these troubled spots. Let them sort their own affairs out.

The sad irony is that war and conflict can be good business for the arms manufacturers [and the international smugglers in these wares] and for Joe’s conglomerate; they have a vested interest in the continuation of agony; idealistic dreams of peace are for old fools like me but that is why I did not take any sides in the argument.

About Joe … hmmm … lemme see … aargh, one should have a sense of humor about journalism; it’s no use crying when you can smile instead:

http://ikejakson.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/joe-the-anonymous-juvenile-bully/

Thanks christophermgomez.

James, you are not even close. 1st the rest of the world doesn’t matter. European anti-sementism is hardly a new thing. The massive corruption of the UN is hardly a new thing. The US matters but not as much as they did a decade ago.

Bill Clinton butchered the peace talks trusting Arafat was serious and set off the infatada and 2,000 dead jews later we have a very secure fence and a radically more conservative population. Just as important because of the post-9/11 leadership of GWB, investment in counter-insurgency technology and tactics, and GWBs total support of Sharon we have the example of Gaza and it’s 150-1 kill ratio. The Palestinains can try violence again but do they really want that level of misery and agony? Not too mention humiliation?

GWB invested a fortune in Israel making sure their edge is historic and unsurmountable. Further in that same period Sharon deregulated the economy, pushed trade and grew their defense industries at a historic pace. Israel will soon pass the EU in per capita GDP and probably grow 3x’s-4x’s as fast this decade. Israel is joining the ranks of the wealthy.

Obama can walk away from tomorrow and cut all aid and support. It would be hugely unpopular and further damage party election prospects and be unlikely to suceed in the 1st place. I’m not quite sure what you think will happen to Israel in that event. Think the neighboring armies will combine and attack? They’d be wiped out and risk their own overthrow. Do you think Panama, Colombia, India and South Korea are going to stop buying arms and technology from Israel? If anything Obama will help Israels export boom..

There is little Obama can do and most of his options would be self-defeating.

I don’t know why some think Obama is something other than liberal but he is radical left of the type only the ivy league can produce. Only 20% of americans are willing to call themselves liberals and he’s much further left than the majority of them.

He’s played this as poorly as it could have been played. The man is pure harvard. He has zero common sense.

BTW James:

Their own destruction? The world is aware they own at least 5 dolphin class subs capable of launching dozens of nuclear weapons as well as substantial ground based launch systems. The fear of a nuclear Iran s/b less what Iran does but what happens if some terrorist lets loose with a dirty bomb in Israel. They won’t hesitate to take out Tehran. Once Tehran is taken out expect some of Iran’s minorities to finish off a few more million persians and then places like Iraq to resolved their territorial disputes once and for all.

I am not quite sure what scenario the worlds lefties think can play out that only Israel loses. That’s simply bizarre. There are 1,000 other possibilities far more likely and far worse for the Middle East.

You are living in a dream world if you think Hillary is in any way as skilled as Bill. She is a bufoon. Bill understood in order to manipulate BiBi has had to have the Israeli people on his side. It wasn’t enough for Bill to be upset with BiBi. He had to get the Israeli people to take his side and be upset with BiBi.

Hillary is pathetic as a politican. She’s never built domestic or international coalitions. Getting elected Senator from a blue state like NY hardly qualifies as a political accomplishment. If her name wasn’t clinton she wouldn’t have been elected.

Obama has even less experience and less skill. His speech in Cairo butchered Israeli history and insulted jews. Already unpopular in Israel he’s trying to beat up on Netanyahu for an event Netanyahu has nothing to do with. He’s again made Netanyahu the sympathetic actor in this play and he’s the clown.

Your team has screwed up again. The Israeli right Wing played this WH for fools.

rdw56, thanks for the response. Beyond that, the response is truly frightening and irrational to me, and I don’t care to engage further. Just my liberal inclination I guess.

A better point is Joes line about an insult directed at Obama is an insult directed at us all. That’s just nonsense. It’s also rank dishonesty. Joe was more than happy to hear insults directed at Bush and other GOP Presidents.

The cooler aspect of this is the different ‘feelings’ of liberals versus conservatives. Libs are tied up in knots over closing Gitmo because we’ve upset European sensibilities. Conservatives ask the question, “Ok, the French are upset. That matters why?”

The Jews can insult Obama all they want.

You are a lefty after all. One can only expect so much

The basic point is dead on. The USA isn’t going to solve this and Obama hasn’t a clue anyway. The fact is the Israeli’s and Palestinians will get there on their own schedule. Forcing talks now when Palestinians are in the middle of civl war is preposterous. There is no chance for success.

What will emerge sooner rather than later is GWBs wisdom in allowing Israel to advance so rapidly in terms of military capabilities, security and economically. Sharon was a superb leader effectively ending the infatada and putting Israel on a path of economic boom.

It would be a mistake to think cutting all aid to Israel is really an option (congress would never support Obama) or that it is that much of an issue, Israel is an advanced technological power. This aid is less than 2% of GDP and is used to buy arms from the USA. The Israeli economy is growing about 6 per year or about $12B. The drop in aid would amount to a speed bump and possibly allow Israel much closer ties with growing powers such as India with a large rapidly growing economy and insatiable demand for the products Israel has but cannot sell today.

The fact is Israel’s per capita GWB is approaching $30K and will soon zoom past the EU average. By 2020 Israeli per capita incomes will most likely exceed the French by 40%. That’s a stunning acheivement. BiBi merely needs to check Obama’s moves holding him in neutral while ensuring the Israel economy continues to deregulate and build trading ties and invest in their security. Israel is a safe and prosperous nation on it’s way to real wealth.

There are times when aggressive diplomacy working toward peace makes sense and times is has to be directed toward blocking goofy efforts that could be dangerous. Obama is dangerous. Netanyahu is playing his cards well.

BiBi at AIPAC,

Expect the standing ovation and repeated applause. Netanyahu is a gifted speaker and in command of the political ground in Israel. His maneuvering regain the PM spot and solidify his power while gaining public support has been exceptional. This is a much different politician that held the office in 1998. He’s much savvier regarding Israeli domestic politics, far superior to Barak Obama and Israel is for now safe and prosperous. Americans do not want him to negitiate with terrorists so he is on firm ground regarding Hamas and Abbas is no more popular. Obama hasmade him more, not less, popular.

Wow, I get to argue both sides at the same time. This is precious!

Formerlyjames, my point wasn’t that Israel would resort to threats, but rather that the natural Israeli response to this sort of pressure would be to hunker down and refuse to budge from its position. Don’t forget that for the time being, Israel holds the cards (in this case, the land). And Israel has good reason to distrust the rest of the world, as evidenced by the unrelenting singling out of Israel by the UN Human Rights Council, and the UN Human Rights Commission before it. None other than Ban Ki-moon has reaffirmed this fact.

Also, it is rhetoric such as yours (“They can wait until hell freezes over”, throwing around loaded terms like “war crimes”) that causes Israelis to believe that the whole world is against them. I’m sure you honestly believe that Israel is a dark evil colonialist force that is getting what it deserves, but it is actually a modern, democratic country (albeit flawed, but what democracy isn’t?) with at least as open a conversation about how it should proceed as exists here in America. Views like yours only serve to reinforce those arguing that Israel should completely disregard all foreign pressure, and continue to make unilateral moves that further and further distance negotiations and progress towards peace.

RDW56, you make a couple good points, but your diatribe on Obama and Bibi is, I’m sorry to say, quite crazy. First of all, Israel is actually pretty dependent on American aid, and it would be a harsh blow were Israel to lose it. Even more crucial for it is American political support, including veto power in the UN security council, as well as US military technology such as fighter jets. Not to mention the diplomatic and/or military assistance Israel needs to prevent Iran from achieving nuclear capability.

Secondly, Bibi isn’t currently nor has he ever played the “reasonable…man of the center”. Both his terms as prime minister have been marked by inconsistent and erratic policies, marked by massive diplomatic gaffes, as he attempts to appease his extremist coalition partners while trying not to completely alienate Israel’s allies. His previous term ended in failure, and it is more than likely that this one will too. But more importantly, the country suffered under his leadership, as decisions made while he was in charge led to the Western Wall Tunnel riots and the deaths of dozens of Israelis and Palestinians, as well as countless corruption scandals.

Repeating the tired refrain that “Israel has no one to talk to” really doesn’t help. Have you by any chance noticed that the West Bank has been very quiet, that the Palestinian Authority has cracked down on terrorists and gained control of the most dangerous areas, and has security forces that cooperate quite nicely with Israel? (See the recent incident with right-wing extremists sneaking into Jericho to pray at the ancient synagogue without permission, and being evacuated without incident.) Yes, an increasingly dug-in Hamas reigns in Gaza, and there can’t be a comprehensive agreement without all parties getting involved. But what do you think is more constructive: Israel easing the lives of Palestinians in the WB, showing Gazans how their lives could improve with a little cooperation, or adamantly refusing to make concessions in the WB until Hamas…what? Willingly gives up power in Gaza? Which will surely happen before the powder keg of the still-largely restricted WB erupts, right? Face it, Israeli refusal to talk right now doesn’t make any sense.

And really? Obama is a radical leftist? If you want anyone to take you seriously when making points about Israel, I suggest refraining from outrageous statements without a basis in reality. It is true that Obama is largely disliked in Israel, though I think that is largely due to all the slanderous statements that circulated implying that he is a “secret Muslim”. But trying to come across as a more balanced mediator, and not automatically supportive of Israel’s every policy, does not make him a radical leftist. If you ask me, Israel needs a good kick in the rear end from time to time (like now, for instance) to keep them thinking straight. I thought JK’s analogy about friends not letting friends drink and drive was very appropriate, actually. It may make Israel mad, but it is for its own good.

(Joe, taking that analogy one step further, for America to insist on Israel halting construction in the Jewish neighborhoods of Jerusalem would be akin to selling Israel’s car, so that it could never again drive drunk. It may seem like it would be particularly effective, but I don’t think the drunk would be eager to maintain the frienship.)

My double lines between paragraphs seem to have condensed themselves into single lines.

Sorry about the enormous single block of text!

greuven,

that’s for the thoughtful response but you are simply wrong regarding the aid. As a percentage of GDP it’s quite small and shrinking each year. It’s also tied in with aid to Egypt pursuant to the Egyptian treaty. Cutting one without the other would be politically difficult as well as unpopular.

As far as the fact the aid is used mostly for US defense purchases quite true and quite important. But not in the short term. Israel’s edge over it’s rivals is at historic levels and growing. Israel’s own defense industry is quite large, lucrative and productive. The loss of acess to top quality US arms would be a setback but they’re not at war with a Western Power. They’re at war with islam If we didn’t sell them a thing they’d have the technological advantage another 200 years.

Just consider this fact. Back in the 2004 timeframe GWB increased defense specific aid to Israel from $3B to $3.6B for 6 years specifically to upgrade the Israeli airfleet to add 36 of the most sophisticated jet the USA has ever upgraded and next generation optics and flightdeck controls for every Israeli fighter. By 2012 Israel would have a fleet of advanced fighters capable of operating in Iraq. Israel already had command of the air. Now that command extends to Tehran. If Obama cuts aid tomorrow what changes? Is that fleet less potent? Israel would still have command of the air for many decades.

GWB saw to it Israel was fully supplied in terms of munition, spare parts,etc and did a great deal of joint development as a way to share knowledge. The Arab/Middle Eastern world simply isn’t capable of matching Israel technologically.

If Obama were a king and it were his throne for life you might have a point. He’s not a king. Congress isn’t even close to supporting cuts to Israel and Obama will be replaced in 2016 if not 2012.

One other thing. Israel spends $3.6B on arms from the US. Are you really assuming they won’t be able to buy arms elsewhere? How about the idea of joint development with India? Do you think they’re not capable of producing their own smart missles?

For whatever reason the left is clueless regarding Israel’s great economic breakout under Sharon. He essentially copied Reagan. Sustained growth was running at 6% until the global recession and the boom has returned. With GDP over $200B they’ll add $12M, $12.7 and $14.1B the next 3 years. Of course they don’t want to lost $3.6M in free money but it’s hardly a disaster.

The real thing to fret is looking forward. Israel has been very good at adding trading partners and growing exports to nations with similar threats such as India, Colombia and Panama to name a few. Support in the UN is not limited to the US. Not that the UN matter anyway. Reagan understood he could defeat the USSR just letting economics run to it’s natural conclusion. Time benefits Israel. They just need to counter Obama politically and wait until he’s replaced.

“Repeating the tired refrain that “Israel has no one to talk to” really doesn’t help. Have you by any chance noticed that the West Bank has been very quiet, that the Palestinian Authority has cracked down on terrorists and gained control of the most dangerous areas, and has security forces that cooperate quite nicely with Israel? ”

Yes I have and have commented on it frequently as the successful result of GWB supporting Sharon as he exterminated the terror leadership in the WB. It’s also another example of this nonsense about stopping all settlements in order to get the WB to cooperate with Israel. Of course they’re cooperating. They’ve been cooperating more than ever. All the while settlement construction and the fence were going on. Did you notice when Israel went into Gaza the Arab world did everything but applaud? Notice that? I think that’s cooperation of a sort don’t you.

The point was talks of a two state solution now are pointless as long as Gaza is under Hamas. There are two different Palestinian states and one seeks to exterminate Israel.

All of the things you point out are a reason to go slow and let the cooperation between Israel and the Arabs continue to grow. Eventually they will end Hamas’ control in the WB and then when Palestine is one state we can consider a two state solution.

“Israel easing the lives of Palestinians in the WB, showing Gazans how their lives could improve with a little cooperation, or adamantly refusing to make concessions in the WB until Hamas…what? Willingly gives up power in Gaza? Which will surely happen before the powder keg of the still-largely restricted WB erupts, right? Face it, Israeli refusal to talk right now doesn’t make any ”

You’ve made the point there have been a lot of improvements in the WB and increasing cooperation with Israel yet you also say there can’t be progress and cooperation until and unless Israel stops all settlements and meets with Obama.

Both things can’t be true. Obviously things are moving quite well in the WB. I think they reported 8% GDP growth in 2009 and expect more in 2010. Part of this the result of BiBi removing 100 checkpoints and generally pulling back as well as more investment and economic cooperation. BiBIi has also made it clear as long as there is peace he will continue to pull back and help to improve the daily life of the Palestinians. It could hardly be clearer Israel, Fatah/PLO, Egypt and JOrdan wish to make an example for Gaza of how prosperous peace can be by engineering real improvement in the WB.

NO one expects Hamas to give up power. Not in one million years. Terrorists are by definition thugs. Hopefully they can be driven from power by Gazans but that is unlikely. No, the end game here is almost certaintly Fatah will remove Hamas from power most likely after Hamas starts and loses another war with Israel. The next war will be designed to segment Gaza into smaller segments allowing Fatah to flood a segment at a time and remove Hamas a sector at a time, until they have total control.

There doesn’t seem to be another way. Hamas intends to eliminate Israel. So obviously Israel can’t negotiate for it’s existance. Hamas has to 1st back down. Since that’s not going to happen Hamas has to be defeated. It’s not complicated.

“And really? Obama is a radical leftist? If you want anyone to take you seriously when making points about Israel, I suggest refraining from outrageous statements without a basis in reality.”

Obama’s speech in Cairo was pure left wing tripe and his speech at the UN was even worse. This is stuff of the far left. His coverage of Israel history in the Cairo speech was insultingly silly. The sort of extremist stuff you might get from Steven Walt or Juan Cole. In tying the creation of Israel solely to European guilt over the holocaust he urinated on Jewish history. Ya think that was unpopular in Israel? I don’t think unpopular quite captures the mood.

What he said was pure lefty extremism and as a political matter quite stupid. This recent dustup is equally stupid. What genius thinks the left in the US is going to drive US policy regarding Israel? I’m in my 50′s and in my lifetime the far left has been null and void on US miiddle eastern policy. The left in Israel barely exists anymore. Do you remember all of the preening when Sharon started building the fence? The left was outraged. They had zero impact.

“Secondly, Bibi isn’t currently nor has he ever played the “reasonable…man of the center”. ”

You are not being fair here. He’s learned much being out of power for a decade including his own limitations and the need to tact to the center as often as possible. While BiBi hasn’t changed much of Israel has. It’s less of a matter of him mellowing ideologicaly it’s the increasing sophistication of the Israeli electorate. Clinton, for all of his good intentions and savvy maneuverings was humiliated by Arafat. The nation moved right, and rather substantially at that. BiBi is able to posiiton himself in the middle because several new right wing parties have emerged in effect pushing him to the center. Also the left has been decimated. Moreover his political skills badly outmatch Livni and Obama.

It was easy for Clinton to portray Netanyahu as an extemist. Today it is easy for Netanyahu to portray Obama as an extremist. It’s true Netanyahu will never be loved in Israel however he’s been doing a stellar job in managing public opinion and his polls have been holding firm. His only competition is Livni and she has been marginalize. Right now he is in command.

“It is true that Obama is largely disliked in Israel, though I think that is largely due to all the slanderous statements that circulated implying that he is a “secret Muslim”. But trying to come across as a more balanced mediator, and not automatically supportive of Israel’s every policy, does not make him a radical leftist”

You are kidding yourself if you think anyone remotely serious thinks Obama is a secret muslim. Obama is disliked in Israel for several very good reasons starting with his mouth. His speech in Cairo was a disaster in Israel. You can’t spit on Israeli history like that and not suffer severe consequences. He’s not a balanced mediator and he’s cetainly not much of a diplomat. He sucks up to enemies and dismissed friends. Did you follow him in Honduras? He stood side by side with Castro and Chavez against Honduras. How was that possible?

There is no reason in the world for Israel to have any respect for Obama as a fair negotiator nor any confidence in his judgement or skills. What has Obama ever done? Israeli’s rightly seem him as a danger. All evidence is that he is a diplomatic bufoon.

“I thought JK’s analogy about friends not letting friends drink and drive was very appropriate, actually. It may make Israel mad, but it is for its own good.”

You are kidding right? You’re not too pretentious. Let me see you don’t think the USA should interfere in or run other countries, except when, well, a liberal is doing the running.

Freidman is a putz. He’s been wrong on Israel and Iraq on everything for a decade and he’s been wrong on global warming his entire life. Ever see a picture of his house? He and his wife live in a 20,000 sq foot mansion. He’s a bigger fraud than Al Gore.

Tom is the perfect example of why the left has been shut out in Israel since Clinton. He was a disaster.

You have to admit Israel is in the best shape of it’s long history right now. They are safer, stronger and more prosperous than ever before. They didn’t get that way listening to Tom or Joe. They got that way ‘buying’ state of the art weapons off GWB.

Do you really think $3.6B in aid entitles us to run the country? You can’t be serious.

It’s a $200B+ economy.

And what is our UN vote going to do? You mean the UN might pass a resolution? And then what?

India and Israel have a booming trade relationship because it makes perfect economic sense. 20 UN resolutions won’t take a dime off that trade.

With all your evidence of Israel’s self-sufficiency, do you support Israel renouncing U.S. military aid and diplomatic support? Clearly, Israel can stand on its own and doesn’t need the U.S., according to your diagnosis. If Israel wants to chart a completely independent course, there’s no need for the U.S. to stand in its way. I’m sure with Bibi’s brilliant diplomatic abilities, he can drum up some support from other nations if he feels the need.
I think Israel does have deep support in the U.S. but things change and just as the U.S. has reduced its military presence in Europe over time, support for an ally that seems more interested in charting its own path than in working closely with the U.S.may see its support diminish. Be careful what you wish for.

It’s bad enough that Klein’s opinions are so misguided– for the record, the 1,600 units were not an expanion into a “Palestinian area”– but his suggestion that the failure to share those opinions is tantamount to disloyalty to the United States is beyond outrageous.

As to the “insult” to the Vice President (and President), it may come as a surprise to Klein, but Netanyahu doesn’t work for Biden, nor is he obligated to implement policies Biden prefers in order to avoid “insulting” him. And where is Klein’s outrage at the Palestinian “insult” to the United States by continuing to encourage violence against Israel? What about the “insult” of refusing direct negotiations with Israel– doesn’t US policy advocate that? What about the even more repulsive Palestinian insult of naming a square after a terrorist who murdered several dozen people, including an American? Where is your high dudgeon over that, Mr. Klein? What’s wrong with you– aren’t you loyal to America? Or is your loyalty with the terrorists?

As to “insults,” the real insult here is to the intelligence of anyone who reads Klein’s drivel.

(Joe, taking that analogy one step further, for America to insist on Israel halting construction in the Jewish neighborhoods of Jerusalem would be akin to selling Israel’s car, so that it could never again drive drunk. It may seem like it would be particularly effective, but I don’t think the drunk would be eager to maintain the frienship.)

Very well put. Since the begining Obama’s position that Israel halt all construction was buffonish. It was unnecessary and pointless, if not belligerent. He seemed like he wanted to pick a fight. In one on Netanyahu’s 1st cabinet meetings he asked aloud, “does anyone have any idea what Obama is doing”. His point was less that Obama was being so hard on Israel but that he was so obnoxious. He wasn’t suggesting or negotiating he was dictating what Israeli policy had to be. BiBi had no problem playing the reasonable man.

The most baffling thing to me in all this Obama, Joe and Thomas L really think we are entitled to dictate policy. Moreover each has repeatedly suggested Obama cut aid without considering the political impact. either immediate or longer term, and analyzing the downside. So what does Israel do if we cut aid? Is it a good thing if they form a consortium with the French, Germans and Indians to share technology and produce their own advanced weapons?

greuven – this this is a bridge too far? I think Obama has badly overplayed his hand here all but forcing BiBi to tell him to cram it. I hope this isn’t accurate.

Haaretz reports that Israel has not only received a tongue lashing from Secretary Clinton delivered to Ambassador Michael Oren, but has received four peremptory demands:

1. Investigate the process that led to the announcement of the Ramat Shlomo construction plans in the middle of Biden’s visit. The Americans seek an official response from Israel on whether this was a bureaucratic mistake or a deliberate act carried out for political reasons. Already on Saturday night, Netanyahu announced the convening of a committee to look into the issue.

2. Reverse the decision by the Jerusalem District Planning and Building Committee to approve construction of 1,600 new housing units in Ramat Shlomo.

3. Make a substantial gesture toward the Palestinians enabling the renewal of peace talks. The Americans suggested that hundreds of Palestinian prisoners be released, that the Israel Defense Forces withdraw from additional areas of the West Bank and transfer them to Palestinian control, that the siege of the Gaza Strip be eased and further roadblocks in the West Bank be removed.

4. Issue an official declaration that the talks with the Palestinians, even indirect talks, will deal with all the conflict’s core issues – borders, refugees, Jerusalem, security arrangements, water and settlements.

It’s quite a package, if accurate, and it’s hard to see how any self-respecting Israeli government could submit to it. Item number three in addition gives expressive form to the notion that it is dangerous being an ally of the United States in the Age of Obama.

Ambassador Oren is a professional historian and a profound student of history. When he says that U.S.-Israeli relations face their worst crisis in 35 years, as Haaretz reports, he would know what he’s talking about.

rdw56,

Thank you for your extremely detailed reply. I’m afraid I don’t have time to respond point by point, but briefly:

I disagree that Israel is in a better position now than ever before. It is true that the economy is in fantastic shape compared to the rest of the world, but international investment in Israel is only as strong as the faith in its stability. Your seeming welcome of the inevitability of another war in Gaza would undermine that stability.

Your views in general are reminiscent of the period in Israel following the 1967 Six-Day War, full of hubris over the inability of the Arabs to counter Israel’s technological supremacy. Just six years later, that argument was blown out of the water, and it was Israel’s subsequent humility following the devastating 1973 Yom Kippur war that allowed the signing of the peace treaty with Egypt. I’ll grant you that Israel has military supremacy over its unwelcoming neighbors. But Hamas and Hezbollah, backed by Syria and Iran, have shown Israel to be vulnerable to civilian casualties and horrified international reaction to harsh Israeli retaliation. The very traits that make Israel a modern western country (with a flourishing economy) make it susceptible to this sort of asymmetrical warfare.

Lastly, I want to reiterate my point about using balanced arguments to make your point. There are many things that Israel is unfairly criticized about, and I am glad there are those defending it on forums like these. However, when you delve into the generic conservative sloganeering that appears on virtually every thread here in Swampland, it undermines your message as a whole. Attributing every success to the political figures you admire, and every failure to those you don’t, regardless of the timeline, is not only ridiculous, it is exactly the same argument used about Clinton vs. Bush in the economy/deficit debate. If you have to twist facts and dates to match your opinions, maybe you should be questioning those opinions. (This works both ways, and there are plenty of liberals guilty of this as well.)

P.S. Apologies for attributing Thomas Friedman’s analogy about drunk driving from his recent Times editorial to JK. Let’s call it temporary informational overload!

“I disagree that Israel is in a better position now than ever before. It is true that the economy is in fantastic shape compared to the rest of the world, but international investment in Israel is only as strong as the faith in its stability. Your seeming welcome of the inevitability of another war in Gaza would undermine that stability.”

So when has Israel been in better shape?

I don’t welcome war. That doesn’t make it more or less inevitable in any event. I don’t see why war with Gaza would affect investment in Israel anymore than sitting there while Hamas launches rocket after rocket into Israel. Anyone investing in Israel has done so understanding and accepting a perpetual state of war. People invest in Israel for political reasons and for economic reasons. Neither would be negatively impacted by a war with Gaza.

This also make my point about Israel being better off. Pre-fence it was possible for terrorists to strap on bombs and walking into a mall to slaughter jews. Not so easy today.

The fact is Israels increasing security acheived by actions the last decade made investment more attractive as did the moves by Sharon and Netnayahu to de-regulate and cut taxes. Booms attract investments.

Ok, fair point with regard to Netanyahu not working for the United States. He is the leader of a soverign nation, his loyalties first and foremost are to Israel. He can insult and reject US policies all he likes. Now, of course, your position is that the United States is a soveriegn state, and therefore she, too, may insult or reject Israeli policies. American leaders should be loyal to American interests over those of Israel. In this case, I’m sure that you find Israel out of line when she complains about the United States abandoning her every time the most tepid criticsm of Israeli policies is uttered by an American politician. Surely, you reject the Israeli Prime Minister phoning AIPAC with marching orders to drum up Congressional support for Israeli policies that ultimately serve no US interest.
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Now, true, it is insulting, at times, the actions some Palestinians take that jeopardize peace negotiations. But, Israel is far from different in this respect. Israel, time and time again, has pursued provocative policies to undermine peace talks, for peace will require concessions, concessions Israel is unwilling to make. As for your repudiation of some Palestinians celebrating terrorism, naturally you also are outraged at PM Netanyahu. In 1996 he led a commemmorative ceremony in honor of the Jewish “freedom fighters” who blew up the King David Hotel in 1946, killing 91 people. You are aware, of course, that Jewish groups such as Irgun, Stern Gang, and Haganah employed deadly acts of terrorism against the Bristish and Arabs in their fight for an independent state. They are now lauded as heros in Israel, not terrorists. Certainly, as you lament the insulting nature of Palestinians naming streets after terrorists, you also find Israel’s glorification of its own terrorists, including Baruch Goldstein, to be not only counterproductive to peace efforts, but directly insulting to Palestinians and, basically, reprehensible conduct.

My above comment was in reply to morganfrost.

“Your views in general are reminiscent of the period in Israel following the 1967 Six-Day War, full of hubris over the inability of the Arabs to counter Israel’s technological supremacy”

Point taken regarding hubris. But this isn’t 1967 and the differencial in capability is vastly wider. Israel isn’t facing 4 Arab armies and their AF might be the 2nd most advanced on the planet while their defenses are vastly superior. Israel has acheived this superiority by remembering 1967 as well as all recent wars. The fact is terrorists are merely thugs. They can do great damage but cannot stand up to an advanced western army.

MY confidence in Israel is less their toys and more their tactical politics.

Right now Hamas has bigger worries than Israel. If in fact they try again to exterminate Israel they don’t havce to fear Israel in failing. If Fatah decides to join the fight there’s no chance Hamas survives. Fatah plays by the same rules as Hamas. Where the global media might be outraged at collateral damage by Israel they’ll stay silent as Hamas and Fatah slaughter each other. Fatah will have all of the avantages and won’t stop until Hamas is finished.

“Attributing every success to the political figures you admire, and every failure to those you don’t, regardless of the timeline, is not only ridiculous, it is exactly the same argument used about Clinton vs. Bush in the economy/deficit debate.”

You’d have a point if it were true. I reference Clinton in regard to Camp David and the resulting infatada. Is there really any debate this as a dabacle? Bill even agrees. As far as Bush I’ve used his support of Sharons fence policy and increased military investment. Again, is there really any debate about the fence being a huge success? Or any debate about GWBs stanch support a contributing factor?

There are things that have been clear, unambigious and decisive. How can it be ridiculous to point them out?

BTW: I think Clinton was a savvy politician and a deal maker. His flaw at Camp David was his willfull blindness regarding Arafat. A very smart man fell prey to his vanity. He allowed his ambitions to cloud his judgement. Unlike Obama his intellect was/is of the highest order and he was an experienced and skilled politiician in the finest sense of the word. Obama is none of that. His total failure at marshalling Israeli public opinion is proof of that. It’s arguable he ever intended to move Israeli public opinion.

rdw56,
you do a great job repelling allegations against Israel of all the good people who are, however, don’t seem to be well informed and repeat clichés they’ve been fed somewhere.
I’d like to add a couple of remarks. It is a pity people pick up an orchestrated campaign against Israel on completely legal building project in the heart of Jerusalem, while having been completely silent on countless Arab unilateral steps in illegal building projects including a construction of a mosque in the Mount Temple digging out and most barbarically throwing tons of soil in order to wipe out the Jewish history. It’s just that the Arabs openly threaten with riots and everyone gets cold feet. And it’s a pity people become instruments in this intimidation.
As to “insulting” the US, it can be admitted that the timing of the announcement on additional building in Ramat Shlomo – already existing neighborhood- was rather unfortunate given Joe Biden’s visit and the projected talks. But these are proceedings on the municipal, not governmental level, and no “insult” was really done, let alone meant. However, Obama brought quite a lot of that stuff – insulting the US – upon his own head and, consequently, upon the US from the International of World Scoundrels (Ahmedinejud, Chaves, North Korean guy, also the Russians, Chinese and, the last but not the least, a medley of Arabs) that I, not an American, together with many others, was ashamed and felt bad for America. A Russian diplomat said that his meeting with Putin was like a meeting between a professor and a sophomore – no need to specify who is who. Obama’s deep bow to the Saudi and receiving a 50-pound golden chain from that “gentleman” was a shame – the leader of the free democratic world bowing to the desert prince.

I think the Saudis gave your hero W Bush a golden sword. And we all know that the Saudis and the Bush dynasty don’t get along.
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This has obviously become a zealot parking spot, understandably, but even so I can’t quite grasp the distain for Obama, let alone any question whatever of the tactics and behavior of the right wing in Israel.
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Finally, I am more concerned with the spillage of the mess over the rest of the world than I am with what Israel does or doesn’t do in their confiscated territory. I will continue to read the zealot posts, but probably not otherwise comment. That is obviously a lost cause. No introspection, no doubt, onward soldiers. Yours is to do and die.

Beng~
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Ok, we both know up front that we do not view the Israeli-Palestinian conflict through the same prism as we’ve been around and around on this on more than a few occasions.
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However, I would like to discuss some points with you. First let me explain something to you. I am not an Obama supporter, not in the least. I am a fairly staunch conservative, although I reject neoconservative foreign policy. With that said, it would behoove you to make your points without attacking Obama because I don’t care about Obama. RDW, for example, replies to everything in terms of who is more politically calculating, Obama or Netanyahu. I have no interest in that debate. Nor am I interested in debating tactical supremacy or military prowess of the IDF versus Hamas.
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What I would like to discern from you is whether or not you recognize Israel’s soveriegn borders as being pre-1967 or broader. Then I would like to hear your justification for Israeli military presence in the West Bank, arbitrary detentions and arrests, and whether Egypt and Israel’s blockade of Gaza constitutes an act of war.

Hello, Exiled_
Due to late hour (at my longitude) I’ll be short, and I’ll elaborate at some later opportunity.
Point by point.
As to your being conservative, I guess I see eye-to-eye with you. Neo or proto, that’s another issue. I guess I’m rather neo.
I don’t attack Obama. I rather sympathize the man, and I think there was an hour of, let’s say, a poetic elation when he was elected. However I remarked what I did concerning his inexperience rather with regret. And I take insults towards the US seriously. I remarked on those real insults as a juxtaposition to the alleged Israeli “insult” which is blown out of all proportions by misplaced interest. I am sure all those who commented and expressed their indignation towards Israel, never even paid attention to the real insults towards the US (those I mentioned and many others, for example the recent open and deliberate derision by Assad of the Secretary Clinton).
Israel eastern pre-1967 border – the Green Line – is no more than a ceasefire line. This was insisted upon by the Arabs with clear intention not to commit themselves to any status quo. The territory to the east of that line was occupied by Jordan who since abandoned her claims. The Arabs now called Palestinians is a new player, and whatever the borders will be is to be decided by negotiations (or war – they chose the latter). Israel has absolutely legitimate claim to sovereignty to at least parts of Judea and Samaria. On this issue find on the internet, for example, the following article:
“Legal Rights and Title of Sovereignty of the Jewish People To The Land Of Israel And Palestine Under International Law” by professor Howard Grief. Try also articles on the issue by Eugene Rostow – the US under-secretary of State in late 60-s who elaborated the 242 UN resolution.
Israel’s blockade of Gaza constitutes an act of war but not of aggression, if that’s what you mean – no more than the US bombardment of Germany in 1944-45. And the blockade is selective, as you well know – the Gazans don’t lack provisions.
You say “arbitrary detentions and arrests”. Not true – not arbitrary but well founded. And the arrested have full legal representation.
Best wishes

Israel wants that aid and uses it to make themselves stronger. That’s the point. The difference with today is Joe and Thomas L Freidman seem to think that aid gives the USA a say in Israeli affairs.

Worse is they throw a verbal hissy-fit the equivalent of sayng, “we play my way or I take my ball and go home.” That’s fine but how about a little analysis if it is even possible to get Congress to agree and then what’s the end result?

As far as support in the US shifting it won’t happen because Obama is pushing it. He can’t even sell healthcare and he’s been at it for a year. The reason Joe andThomas L are so frustrated is becasuse they’ve been completely shut out of the Middle East for a decade. No one has paid any attention to the left regarding the middle east.

Nothing about the planning for those 1600 apartments in Ramat Shlomo in northern Jerusalem is illegal. The thousands of apartments already built there are also legal.

Klein is out of his depth here.

Planning Commissions aren’t normally the trigger for an International Incident. It’s not clear what the purpose of raising the issue is.

Biden was not embarrassed. Maybe Netanyahu was, but not Biden.

NewsBusters: TIME’s Klein Blasts Israel for Perceived Snub, Hints U.S. Supporters of Israel Might be Unpatriotic Americans
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2010/03/15/times-klein-blasts-israel-perceived-snub-hints-u-s-supporters-israel-m