The GOP Campaign to Scare House Dems

Is anyone else feeling a bit of déjà vu?

This stage in the health care legislative battle feels, to me at least, a lot like the period just before Christmas. Remember the constant threats from Republicans that they would use all the parliamentary tools available to indefinitely stall a final vote on the Senate health care bill? Remember Republican Sen. Judd Gregg’s memo on using the rules of the Senate to slow things down to a pace that could prove fatal? Remember the various tools in the “parliamentary arsenal” Republicans would employ? Remember Republican Sen. Tom Coburn forcing the Senate clerk to read all 767 pages of a single payer amendment?

And what happened? The Senate bill passed. All Republican obstructionist grandstanding on the Senate floor ended quickly and was soon forgotten. (The Senate clerk’s reading of the single payer amendment, for instance, was halted when its sponsor simply withdrew it from consideration.)

It seems that the Republicans are using the same strategy again – trying to convince the media and wavering Congressional Democrats that a reconciliation package might never pass. The reason this tactic would make sense now is this: If enough House Democrats start believing a reconciliation bill will never get through, they might not vote for the underlying Senate bill first, a crucial next step for reform.

Sen. Gregg is a central player in this narrative once again. Yesterday, he suggested Democratic leaders might renege on their promise to “fix” the Senate bill with reconciliation. On CNBC, Gregg offered this rather cryptic tidbit: “Once they pass the great big bill, I wouldn’t be surprised if the White House didn’t care if reconciliation passed. I mean, why would they?” (It’s worth answering his question. The White House would want reconciliation passed, if for no other reason, than to strip out the unsavory Cornhusker Kickback that neither it, nor any Democrats, wants to have to defend in subsequent elections. Plus, getting a reconciliation package through the Senate requires only 50 votes plus Joe Biden and a simple majority in the House – not exactly a heavy lift in terms of gathering votes.)

Then today, Republicans leaked to Greg Sargent that “They are going to use the arcane “Byrd rule” to try to bleed the reconciliation fix to death and ensure that it never passes.” Bleed the reconciliation fix to death! Wow – are you scared, wavering House Democrats currently being courted by Speaker Nancy Pelosi?

Maybe they should be. Even Senate scholars and parliamentarians haven’t said for sure how a reconciliation battle would play out in the Senate. It’s likely to get rather ugly and to take longer than Democrats would like. But, even ignoring that reconciliation packages have passed many times before despite entrenched opposition, let’s step back from process and Senate rules for a second, shall we? The reconciliation package Democrats are crafting would do things like strip out the Cornhusker kickback, close the Medicare Part D doughnut hole, scale back the tax on Cadillac health plans and possibly incorporate some more GOP ideas into the legislation. These things are not nearly as contentious as the massive underlying Senate bill and opposition to them might lack the oomph that last year’s opposition had. Bottom line: If the House passes the Senate bill and President Obama signs it into law, the battle is won. A reconciliation package would be neither as contentious nor as politically interesting as the comprehensive legislation itself. There will be enormous momentum in favor of the reconciliation package if the underlying Senate bill becomes law – imagine a signing ceremony, A1 headlines about Obama’s historic victory, etc.

But yet Republicans are eagerly leaking details of their plan to put up a reconciliation roadblock. These leaks are not, in my opinion, happening because reporters are digging deep. (No offense to Sargent, who’s done an incredible job working the phones and the Capitol to break constant news about the health care debate. He puts many of us to shame.) But it seems like these leaks are more likely a targeted Republicans effort to try and scare off enough House Democrats that the Senate bill itself can’t get through. Accomplish that and the GOP doesn’t have to worry about reconciliation.

Of course, Pelosi might have other far more serious problems than House Democrats scared about reconciliation.

Related Topics: greg sargent, Health Care, health reform, judd gregg, obama, pelosi, reconciliation, White House, Uncategorized
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  • allthingsinaname

    Are you saying that GOP tactics haven’t worked so far?
    .
    Those Dems will run for the hills, I think they believe in all the boogeymen the GOP scare up.

  • http://forgottenlord.livejournal.com forgottenlord

    Y’know, if the Dems had actually taken KT’s advice and pulled out the cots sometime last year, they would have demonstrated to their House colleagues that they’re willing to do what it takes to get stuff done without caving completely.

  • stuartzechman

    KT:
    .
    Has Obama publicly committed to waiting until the Senate passes the House’s Reconciliation “fixes” (the full list of which is…where?), or has he said he will sign the conference-approved Senate bill as soon as it gets to his desk, whether the Senate keeps their word on Reconciliation or not?
    .
    …Or has the Administration not said anything about holding the Senate to their word?

  • diecash1

    “If the House passes the Senate bill and President Obama signs it into law, the battle is won.”
    ..
    Bingo. Game, set, match.

  • charlieromeobravo

    You have to admire the lengths the Republicans will go to to stop health care reform and then award them extra points for difficulty for never using the facts to support their position. They’ve tried to scare the public, stalled it with bad faith negotiations, threatened to strangle it to death with parliamentary maneuvers, and now they’re going direct and trying to scare off reps that are on the fence about the bill. The only thing they haven’t tried is pointing to credible sources that show the bill won’t improve things. I love how they’re going out of their way to paint reconciliation as a desperation maneuver that undermines our democracy. IT’s the nuclear option when it’s used to help the middle class and low income households but it’s perfectly OK when it’s used to pass tax cuts for the wealthy.

  • shepherdwong

    It’s better than that. If the legislation passes, it’s fair to say that Republicans made it happen. By lying and demagoguing “Obamacare” they rallied liberals, centrists and Congressional Democrats to push policies that had only lukewarm support at best and generated outright anger on the left. They may have made it absolutely necessary and possible for Democrats to pass the legislation.

  • stuartzechman

    This is extremely cogent analysis.

  • http://forgottenlord.livejournal.com forgottenlord

    Can the Senate do reconciliation on something that hasn’t been signed into law?

  • afguy

    diecash,
    .
    No, just “game and set”.
    .
    The “match” can be called when they actually fix all that needs to be done to make this a really GOOD reform plan.
    .
    It’s acknowledged that this was an “but-it’s-all-we-can-get-right-now-but-we’ll-fix-it-later-we-promise” centrist compromise.

  • nflfoghorn

    Stupe talks a good game but he’s about as potent as LIEberman.

  • northpoleresident

    You are absolutely right. You can not blame republicans for using the rules available. They are working the system anyway they can to support their agenda. The democrats could learn a thing or two.
    .
    Over and over the democrats have proven they are not willing to use every option available. They are to worried about perception. The GOP learned to get what they want done first and spin perception later. If you can not learn from your rivals you will continue to fail.

  • stuartzechman

    What is wrong with me today!!?!?
    .
    Jeez, Louise, I obviously mean to write “Kate Pickert,” not “KT.”
    .
    My apologies, Kate Pickert.
    .
    I should retire for the day, honestly.

  • allthingsinaname

    Big IF

  • stuartzechman

    Can the Senate do reconciliation on something that hasn’t been signed into law?
    .
    Dave Waldman is saying yes, I believe (link to supreme authority on Congressional procedure).

  • diecash1

    I really think passing the budget reconciliation fix will be a virtual fait accompli when the House passes the Senate bill. I believe there will be a strong desire to fix some of the bill’s more egregious flaws. Gregg has his bunch are just pulling the usual fear-mongering, as they often do.

  • nflfoghorn

    Yes, StuartZechman, what IS indeed wrong with you, StuartZechman???

  • nflfoghorn

    Eventually the GOPers will have to forego stall tactics and come up with an alternative – and DOING NOTHING can’t be it.

  • afguy

    diecash,
    .
    Even the “fix” isn’t a complete “fix”…
    .
    And never underestimate the ability of a Congress-critter to demonstrate cowardice under fire (and at election time).

  • FlownOver

    If Stupak succeeds in his jihad against health care reform – and maybe even if he doesn’t – here’s hoping he gets a serious Blanche Lincoln treatment. I don’t care who’s running against him, they’ll have my dollars.

  • diecash1

    Were it a complete fix it would be a completely new bill….HR 676 maybe. That’s another conversation entirely.

  • stuartzechman

    nflfoghorn
    .
    StuartZechman, what IS indeed wrong with you,
    StuartZechman

    .
    Hmm…you’re making some kind of stylistic point…can’t quite figure out what it is…
    .
    This phrasing of yours seems like some kind of rhetorical device I’ve read somewhere before…where would that be?
    .
    Who sounds like that?
    .
    Well, thanks so much, nflfoghorn, for referencing that weird literary tic, whoever’s it is…

  • diecash1

    Apparently you “misunderestimate” those nihilists………

  • Kate Pickert

    Adam noted earlier that Inside Health Policy reported that the Democratic plan is to have Obama sign the Senate bill before the reconciliation vote. http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/02/health-care-endgame-a-timeline/ But this is not yet confirmed on the record.

  • afguy

    Yup. That IS my point.
    .
    And I hope they have the guts at some point in the future to finish the job. But I’m NOT holding my breath…

  • stuartzechman

    Thank you very, very much for this information KATE PICKERT.
    .
    It’s very generous of you to help your commenters out like this, you have my gratitude.

  • Paul-no not that one

    This is a really interesting read of the landscape.

    Thanks for going beyond the “Senator X says (blank)” and giving us a sense of what may be the strategy behind the inch deep sound bites and leaks.

  • afguy

    They will have to come up with alternatives when they start to lose elections because they have none.
    .
    As long as they have “dead-enders” they can rely on to vote for them, the problem will still be with us.
    .
    I’m just afraid it’s gonna have to get much worse before there’s a REAL backlash.
    .
    Too many people out there not paying any real attention.

  • http://forgottenlord.livejournal.com forgottenlord

    That actually makes the most sense to me – provides the fewest legal hurdles and prevents any judiciary challenge.

  • bobcn1

    So the plan is for the gopers to stage parliamentary tantrums to PREVENT the ‘Cornhusker Kickback’ from being removed? And then they expect to run on what? That they saved the ‘Cornhusker Kickback’ from those evil Dems who were trying to remove it? If they think this is a winning strategy, please let them try it.

  • iamsource

    Biden is the trump card. Nothing is going to stop the bill from being passed. NOTHING!

  • shepherdwong

    “They will have to come up with alternatives when they start to lose elections because they have none.”
    .
    They’ve been losing elections and it’s only resulted in them doubling-down on their anti-government “conservative” dogma. The trouble is, thirty year of brainwashing the base has worked and these people now firmly believe the insanity the GOP has been pushing and are basically insisting that their leaders live up to their rhetoric. That means they can’t “come up with [government] alternatives” to win elections. It also means that they can’t just pretend to be against government, they have to start acting like it. Pass the popcorn.

  • kevin

    My thoughts exactly.

  • allthingsinaname

    I don’t like Horror movies.

  • freeinpa

    Actually you guys need the anti-psychotics not popcorn

  • nflfoghorn

    MWA-HA-HA-HAAAAAAA!!!!! :)

  • nflfoghorn

    Just messin’ with ya ;)

  • afguy

    shepherd,
    .
    I guess I’m talking about real “bridge-collapsing”, “pothole expanding”, “highway washout”, “power-grid-failing”, “lack of financial oversight” failure of governance that can be directly attributed to their lack of vision.
    .
    Too many support the GOP because they see no downside to all of the “gov’t is bad” rhetoric. When THEY can’t get to work because of road conditions and lose THEIR power because of a lack of grid maintenance, THEN they’ll start to think a little more.
    .
    I just don’t think that it would take a whole lot for them to turn on each other, when it’s THEIR ox that’s being gored.

  • nflfoghorn

    …StuartZechman. *)

  • Ivy_B

    Did you see this clip from Maddow about Stupak?

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/35718576#35718090

  • nflfoghorn

    Back in the day when the WPA was in full swing did conservatives complain about it being “government stimulus” that would bust the budget? Just wondering.

  • iamsource
  • afguy

    nflfoghorn,
    .
    I don’t think they realize how much of what we are using right now came from those programs.
    .
    TVA was one of the biggest. Now, they’re part of the landscape.

  • nflfoghorn

    Maybe I am underestimating near-term, but I bet once the economy turns around the emperor’s clothes will be fully exposed!

  • nflfoghorn

    I AM with you, Iams. It just sounded sinister.

  • shepherdwong

    …THEN they’ll start to think a little more.”
    .
    I see no evidence of that. Their ox has been being gored by Republican economic policy for decades, just took a straight right horn in the gut and they’ve only gotten dumber and crazier all along. They’re authoritarian followers, they’re expressly told what to think and being afraid only makes them dumber and crazier and easier to manipulate by their authoritarian leaders. And they’re mostly looking for enemies to hate, not solutions. Also.
    .
    I think you’re just projecting your own, much healthier, psychology on them and they’re just not like that.
    .
    http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

  • nflfoghorn

    Kinda like the teabaggers complaining about government-run health care while daring anybody to take away their Medicare.

  • iamsource

    Sorry about the sinisterism. Perhaps I could have stated that differently. :)

  • afguy

    Weird thing is, some of the GOP’s most rabid supporters benefited greatly from the WPA.
    .
    IIRC, rural electrification was one of its big components. Running electricity to farms and mountain communities who never had it before.
    .
    I wonder how many country livers wouild want to go back to pulling water out of a well with a bucket and rope, or who would want to start walking a hundred yards to an outdoor outhouse. Septic tanks are a trade-off, I know. (I have one.) But they aren’t as good as sewers (which also fail, without regular maintenance.)

  • freeinpa

    COme on guys your letting your fellow douchebaggers down. In all the tear rendering of the government you forgot to mention the children.. Come guys, you always have to add for the children.

    Oops that’s right your selling them out for Obama and Health care. My bad.

  • afguy

    Hope so, nflfoghorn.
    .
    Maybe it’s my maintenance training but I was ALWAYS very leery when I couldn’t see that what I was doing was leading to a solution to a problem.
    .
    Even it things suddenly got better, if I wasn’t doing anything when it got better, I stayed skeptical.
    .
    And I NEVER expected things to get better just by waiting them out.
    .
    I’m looking at actions being done and proposed LONG-TERM. And “we’re just in a cycle – it’s gonna get better” just isn’t convincing to me.
    .
    I’m looking for policy and action solutions – and I’m just not seeing them. Color me eternally skeptical, I guess.
    .
    And MAYBE I need to move to Missouri… their state motto suits me better.

  • shepherdwong

    And this is what “conservative” policies under Republican rule did to them over the past ten years:

    Real GDP in America grew by an average of 1.9% a year during the 2000s. This may not sound all that terrible, especially for a decade that saw one short recession and another particularly deep and long one. But it is the economy’s worst performance for a long time. During the previous six decades, average growth was 3.9% a year. Only the 1930s—when growth was a mere 0.9% a year—were worse…In terms of employment growth, the 2000s were also a lost decade. In the years between 1940 and 1999 the number of Americans employed outside farming grew by an average of 27% each decade. In the one just past it fell by 0.8%.

    And they’re apoplectic now about…wait for it…liberalism. Face it, they are functionally insane and even the worst reality is unlikely to redeem them.

  • iamsource

    Are you kidding me freeinpa?…The children stand to benefit greatly from this bill. You are obviously narrow sited.

  • shepherdwong

    No, that was perfect. Right out of the leader’s fat, lying, hypocritical mouth.

  • apollyon07

    Anyone who is surprised by this hasn’t been paying attention for last several years. Fear is the number one tool in politics and it always will be.

  • kevin

    I don’t think they realize how much of what we are using right now came from those programs.
    .
    Most people don’t. The WPA built a ton of stuff, including some pretty iconic American landmarks — the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, the presidential retreat at Camp David, Doubleday Field at Cooperstown, Dealey Plaza in Dallas, LaGuardia Airport in New York, the Griffith Observatory in LA, etc.
    .
    And that was just one program. The Public Works Administration, the smaller forerunner of the WPA, built a ton of landmarks as well — the Lincoln Tunnel and Triborough Bridge in NYC, the Grand Coulee Dam, the bridge that connects the Florida Keys to the mainland, etc. Of all the trees planted in American history, half of them were planted by the Civilian Conservation Corps. Half.
    .
    That’s not to mention the thousands and thousands of miles of highways, streets, airport runways, railroad and transit line, and the rest that isn’t as famous. There’s a reason a lot of our infrastructure is crumbling now. It was built 75 years ago by the New Deal.

  • freeinpa

    A bankrupt government will help them with little.

    SheperdWrong back to the liar lair pants on fire defense. You the Man!

  • afguy

    shepherd,
    .
    THAT’s why it’s best to let him talk sometimes.
    .
    We couldn’t come up with a better add than he provides at times.
    .
    The rest of the time, the comments are more like the dog turd beside the sidewalk – just note that it is there and walk around it if possible.

  • afguy

    But if he was your kid, you’d probably use two cases of soap to wash out his mouth, send him to his room, and ground him until he was old enough to apply for Social Security.

  • shepherdwong

    “SheperdWrong back to the liar lair pants on fire defense
    .
    Oh no, please don’t misunderstand. I don’t assume that you’re lying. I assume that you’re just a brainwashed partisan tool who can’t tell sh*t from Shinola.

  • afguy

    Remember, shepherdwong, THINK “dog turd”.
    .
    Ignore it, don’t try to talk to it.
    .
    The “smelly and annoying” part is the whole point…

  • freeinpa

    There is a lesson of the WPA. Billion were spent to create these wonderful structures. Did anyone ever consider how they would be maintained and paid for going forward? Now that is Demo thinking. Spend now and I look great.

    Next will be the whining about education as the protests turn violent (got to be Tea Parrty people at the bottom of this) We will hear one more call for “tax the rich”. Which will be at least count about th e4th time over their entire income will have been spent.

    But its for the children!

  • freeinpa

    ShepherWrong and Afguy

    Still Testing positive for stupid..

    More name calling with nothing behind it. Get IQ53 and he can throw the race card. Moe Larry and Curley will have exhausted their entire intellectual arsenal

  • stuartzechman

    I don’t think they realize how much of what we are using right now came from those programs.
    .
    Most people don’t.

    The easy way out is to repeat over and over how batsh*t insane these people are because they don’t know what we know.
    .
    The hard way forward is to figure out why, when we’ve done such amazing things for the country, and our ideas have been so f*cking successful, we’re so terrible at communicating these things to our fellow citizens, the batsh*t crazee idiots for whom we supposedly have so much charitable love.
    .
    Calling them crazee removes any culpability from us for the situation, and it’s really, really comforting to remind ourselves of how superior we are, but it doesn’t make the situation any better.
    .
    If we’re so smart, if our ideas are so proven, if our intentions are so good, then why can’t we convince people of it? Is that social program just too hard for us liberals? Is it just too much for our superior brains to overcome? Are the rightists just too formidable an ideological enemy? Are we the f*cking losers that the right says we are, basically?
    .
    …Or have we changed, and can’t face our faults clearly enough to correct them, despite the supposed advantages of being not the crazee ones?

  • iamsource

    Our Government will never go bankrupt. The budget will simply be balanced. Funds will be removed from things that don’t bring short or long term returns. Health care brings returns by keeping the body functional. On the other hand, a humungous and bloated military used to oppress an entire planet, totally outside the scope of peace, and brings no constructive return, will be reassessed.

  • freeinpa

    SZ:

    “The easy way out is to repeat over and over how batsh*t insane these people are because they don’t know what we know.”

    This is the sum and substance of liberals. People are stupid and we are smarter.

    The reason you can’t convince them is simple. The direction of the policies is not what they want. The bats**t crazies on the left certainly don’t help, least you think they only reside on the right

  • freeinpa

    SZ: Sorry posted this in 12.15 by accident

    SZ:

    “The easy way out is to repeat over and over how batsh*t insane these people are because they don’t know what we know.”

    This is the sum and substance of liberals. People are stupid and we are smarter.

    The reason you can’t convince them is simple. The direction of the policies is not what they want. The bats**t crazies on the left certainly don’t help, least you think they only reside on the right

  • iamsource

    Fear.., Terrorism.., Insecurities.., and Enemies.., the survival card, it’s the basis of Republican thinking and their answer is power brokers, control, extreme moral edict and enforce it with military and police. Compassion, growth, investment in the future of life supporting systems, peace, and true unity through strengthening those who actually produce and serve, is the basis of Democratic thinking. I’ve watched it my whole life. I did NOT have blinders on, and I did NOT lie to myself. I used the one important reality measurement tool our forefathers gave us in the Declaration of Independence. “Self-Evident Truths!”

  • shepherdwong

    “Are the rightists just too formidable an ideological enemy?”
    .
    It’s all about psychology, Stuart. I’ll skip the link to Altemeyer (this time) and just point out that you can’t reason with authoritarian followers. You must realize by now that they are not interested in reason. The right has indoctrinated and cultivated false belief in the high-RWA population for whom it’s calls to fear, hatred and/or selfishness are naturally attractive. And the more that fear, hatred and selfishness drives the population, the more will be seduced by their calls. That’s how movement conservatism in service of rapacious capitalism works, by using fear, competition and insecurity to turn the RWAs against the government and rest of us. It. Is. Not. Rational.

  • freeinpa

    “Our Government will never go bankrupt. The budget will simply be balanced.”

    afguy, ShepherWrong one of you tin foiled hat comrades escaped. It will simply be balanced. Will you click your heels three times? Can you do that with my mortgage?

    Funds that bring returns? The government has NO money. The people are the owners of capital. The government programs have no returns. It is spending.

    Health care bringing returns like from Preventive Care? Another left wing canard like global warming fables.
    http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/358/7/661

  • indianasteve

    Why is nobody paying any attention to the constitutionality of the mandate to have insurance? When a majority of state Republican governors have already indicated they will take the issue into court, I suspect it is more than political grandstanding but probably has some legal merit.
    So where does the Great Obama, a purported constitutional expert (self-proclaimed?) find the chutzpah to sign legislation whose major initiative is going to be tossed by the courts? And what will the reform look like when the mandate is stricken?
    I would like to see some constitutional scholars argue this in public – before the vote.

  • afguy

    Stu,
    .
    I guess my reply would be that, in a past day and time, we MIGHT have tried to go out and talk to the outlaw that insisted on holding up the stage or train on a regular basis, to convince him of the error of his ways.
    .
    But, at a certain point, realizing that the effort wasn’t going to accomplish anything, you would form a posse go out and locate said person, and fill them full of enough holes to make Swiss cheese envious. There was some pretty definite closure to the situation.
    .
    The old Soviet Union, faced with anyone they deemed to be disruptive and a threat to the State, just sent their security representatives to that person’s house some night and that person magically disappeared, never to be heard from again. Once again, pretty definite resolution of a problem.
    .
    We are much more civilized here and now. We are trying to talk others into our point of view – even when it doesn’t work.
    .
    I’m afraid we have the potential of sliding toward more like the old Soviet Union right now, with the Patriot Act and its surveillance programs, that we are like the old West model I previously described.
    .
    Or maybe a combination of the two, where we have to worry about government eaves-dropping on us AND the RW militias, worrying about who the government has watching them.

  • iamsource

    Since healthcare supports life, and the Constitution guarantees life for each and everyone of us, the connection is already made. There have been a great deal of tax dollar investments that have been made since, “taxes were made legal”, that have been invested in things not supporting the foundational principles of the Constitution. I would be shock if the connection were not realized by the courts, but then again, I think the court system needs to be completely overhauled, and term limits place on ALL Judges, including Supreme Court Judges. Our biggest Judicial mistake in the country is allowing Justice to be commerce based! This simply means Rights and Freedom are up for sale, and that complete “Alienates” our, so called, “Inalienable Rights!”

  • shepherdwong

    I agree. There’s nothing inevitable about leaders who choose to motivate people using appeals to fear and resentment of some other. I’d say that appeals to resentment and fear compared to say appeals to a sense of shared self-interest is the most important characteristic that defines bad or good leadership and that most people can be led to their better natures. It’s also one of the defining differences between Republican and Democratic leadership that I’m always more than a bit surprised that independents seem to somehow miss completely.

  • stuartzechman

    shepherdwong:
    .
    This group:
    .
    the high-RWA population
    .
    and this group:
    .
    fear, hatred and selfishness drives the population
    .
    aren’t the same, as you correctly point out.
    .
    But fear, hatred and selfishness don’t define Americans, however much evidence there is that these normal motivations exist in ordinary people.
    .
    That’s ideology talking, not reality.
    .
    Psychological forces, both negative (“fear”) and positive (“hope”) drive all populations, sometimes to a greater or lesser degree.
    .
    It’s up to us to successfully convince our fellow citizens that we can be trusted to act on their –our– behalf, otherwise rightist activists will profit from our failure.
    .
    That’s how movement conservatism in service of rapacious capitalism works
    .
    Movement conservatism isn’t in the service of elites, it is its own organically created product. It can be exploited by elites, of course –just like “Hope n’ Change” can be exploited by elites– but it isn’t a product of robber barons, nor controlled by corporations. There isn’t “rapacious capitalism” to be in the service of, that’s Marxist talk. There are only specific institutions and specific interests to be served, not the structuralists’ imaginary structures. There are elites and their interests to serve –state, industry, finance, academy, military– but not some reified “capitalism,” as if it were one of Plato’s (or Hegel’s) Ideas standing out on Ellis Island holding a torch.
    .
    Movement conservatism is a product of populist, traditionalist tendencies in every population who are faced with resisting cultural hegemony imposed from without. People don’t want to give up what they know and/or have. It’s natural.
    .
    Not to recognize the anti-hope, anti-progress yet organic nature of popular rightism is to fail to confront it effectively, shepherdwong. That means the view that social conservatives are the unwitting tools of elites must be recognized for its ineffectiveness.
    .
    We must also recognize that elites exploit the popular right, but the popular right also uses elites. We are enough of a democratic republic such that a certain fealty is demanded from elites in government and industry and given to the popular right. It’s how their expressions exert control over culture, even thought they are a minority.
    .
    The religious right aren’t able to prevent CBS from airing condom ads merely because that enormous corporation is exploiting them, shepherdwong. There is a price to be paid; to an extent, marketers are the slaves of the market, when certain forces are organized beyond their control. What goes on in churches isn’t in the control of conference rooms on Madison Avenue.
    .
    We don’t have that. We aren’t smart enough to have built that. We once were, but now we’re not, and we can’t seem to face that fact, and so we moan about the awful, crazee right, as if we’re powerless –as if people are powerless. That makes us weak, afraid, passive and exploitable by the elites that manage us.

  • freeinpa

    I am sorry it took me 20 mintes to stop laughing after reading you post.

    Rights endowed by their creator life liberty and pursuit of happiness. There is no right to having it provided by the government.

    Why do you limit your corruption to Justices for sale. What about all the laws, regualtions et al that limit my pursuit of happiness that is forced on us by congressional and presidential politicians?

  • shepherdwong

    But fear, hatred and selfishness don’t define Americans, however much evidence there is that these normal motivations exist in ordinary people.
    .
    That’s ideology talking, not reality.
    .
    Psychological forces, both negative (“fear”) and positive (“hope”) drive all populations, sometimes to a greater or lesser degree.

    Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/05/the-gop-campaign-to-scare-house-dems/?replytocom=142319#respond#ixzz0hLEsZ68I

  • allthingsinaname

    “If we’re so smart, if our ideas are so proven, if our intentions are so good, then why can’t we convince people of it? Is that social program just too hard for us liberals? Is it just too much for our superior brains to overcome? Are the rightists just too formidable an ideological enemy? Are we the f*cking losers that the right says we are, basically?
    .
    …Or have we changed, and can’t face our faults clearly enough to correct them, despite the supposed advantages of being not the crazee ones?”
    .
    First if, when, people are comfortable they hate change.
    .
    2nd we collect carbage along the way that make other people uncomfortable embracing. Big tent sounds great untill one looks at it what it means.
    .
    3rd some people are crazy.

  • stuartzechman

    afguy:
    .
    Just so you understand, I’m not about turning the other cheek, as much as I could do it if I felt that it was the best way.
    .
    It’s not, usually.
    .
    When I publicly talk to and about rightists, I am fighting them, just not through ridicule or other stupid social pressures that don’t seem to work. Above all, first and foremost, rightists’ ideas must be exposed for what they are. Not through political or rhetorical games, just through real, honest discussion. The right will discredit themselves, almost always, if the facts are known, and the discussion is in good faith.
    .
    That said, hard-core fascists must be confronted, not reasoned with, of course. Liberals aren’t Quakers.
    .
    When the KKK shows up in my neighborhood, that’s when I reach for my revolver…

  • stuartzechman

    First if, when, people are comfortable they hate change.
    .
    Even when they’re not comfortable, people are afraid of losing what little they have. Some of the poorest communities are the most conservative. Traditions are what they have. Culture is what they have. It’s natural. To call people who behave naturally “selfish” is to lose their trust, and to deliberately misunderstand them in the misguided service of noble goals.
    .
    2nd we collect carbage along the way that make other people uncomfortable embracing. Big tent sounds great untill one looks at it what it means.
    .
    This is a very interesting statement. I’m genuinely interested in what you mean. Could you spell it out for me, so I don’t misinterpret you?
    .
    3rd some people are crazy.
    .
    Calling all of the people who strongly disagree with us for a variety of reasons “crazy” is crazy.
    .
    Calling the people who might happen to currently sympathize with the people who disagree with us “crazy” is stupid.

  • shepherdwong

    “But fear, hatred and selfishness don’t define Americans, however much evidence there is that these normal motivations exist in ordinary people.
    .
    That’s ideology talking, not reality.
    .
    Psychological forces, both negative (“fear”) and positive (“hope”) drive all populations, sometimes to a greater or lesser degree.”

    .
    But the social science is clear (forcing me to put up the Altemeyer link) some are more susceptible to the fear drive and others to the hope drive. I really don’t understand why you can’t grasp this concept: right-wingers have different psychology and motivations than left-wingers and, by adulthood, it is somewhat hard-wired. You can look it up.
    .
    http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
    .
    .
    “Movement conservatism isn’t in the service of elites, it is its own organically created product.”
    .
    I can only hope that we’re talking about different things because that’s crazy talk right there. Obviously I mean the post-Goldwater modern conservative movement funded by rich elites like Richard Mellon Scaife, promulgated by rich elites like Rupert Murdoch and benefiting all rich elites. You have an amazing psychological blind spot about what “conservatism” is. I mean really amazing.

  • afguy

    Stu,
    .
    A lot of these supposed “conservatives” aren’t that or even “libertarians”, they’re out-and-out anarchists. The only limitations they accept on their behavior is exactly NONE. EVERYTHING is a free speech issue, including “kill that politician for disagreeing with us”. ANY attempted limitation on the 2nd Amendment is portrayed as an attempt to take away your guns. The solution to a mass killing using a firearm is to be solved with… more firearms to be made available to more people.
    .
    In the past, when we had a national debate over something, at a point, someone would declare “you’ve got a point there” and we’d go home and start to work toward a common goal.
    .
    Not happening now. No definite resolution to ANY disagreement. What worries me is that, at somepoint, someone is going to stand up, say “that’s quite enough of that” and take matters violently into their own hands. I’ll blame the Justice Department for allowing the situation to evolve into that if it does. It’s almost like some are WANTING a violent event to occur to justify some undefined “further action”. IT’s NOT like they are trying to head it off.
    .
    Public debate is becoming an open sore that is never allowed to heal. Elections seem to settle NOTHING. We now have a party openly running to repeal everything this admin tries to do if they win.
    .
    This level of discourse isn’t sustainable.

  • stuartzechman

    But the social science is clear (forcing me to put up the Altemeyer link) some are more susceptible to the fear drive and others to the hope drive.
    .
    Please tell me you’ve got something more than this guy’s work, shepherdwong.
    .
    Would you please provide more in the way of support for the thesis that rightist views (at least in North America, it seems) are indicative of psychological pathology, preferably something that doesn’t contain the ideological equivalent of an eHarmony questionnaire?

  • rukidding0

    PASS CONGRESSIONAL VOTE REDISTRIBUTION NOW

    The destructive gridlock in congress must end now. The Party of NO socialism, NO bigger government, NO higher taxes, NO further loss of freedom, and NO reconciliation must be stopped NOW. FDR had the answer to whining constitutionalists – a switch in time. The Supreme Court must be packed in favor of our glorious socialist transformation anyway in order to remove Constitutional roadblocks to implementation.

    Obstructionists must not be allowed to frustrate Obama and his Social Democrat Party super majorities in their 52.6% mandate to finish the job of transforming America into the Euro-social-democracy the left can finally be proud of.

    The Party of massive income redistribution must openly acknowledge their collectivist superiority over the greed of those with a false sense of entitlement to their own money and at long last pass congressional vote redistribution, taking 40% of the votes from opposition to social democratic causes and redistributing them to our Social Democrat Party to apply according to their innate wisdom. Social justice demands action on this issue now.

  • allthingsinaname

    I didn’t call anyone selfish. I said they were comfortable.
    .
    It seems to me that we throw a lot away in our wholesale support of abortion for any reason, as one example. I suuport a womens right to choose, to an extent. Collaborating with some groups is almost unbearable. It works both way of course.
    .
    I stand by my assertion that people are crazy, both left and right.

  • shepherdwong

    Stuart,
    .
    Trust me, I’ve got lots of sources on the nature of right-wing psychology, though why you don’t have a clue being exposed to their hateful and deluded thinking every day on this blog (and, i trust, many other places as well) tells me that nothing I show you will probably make much of a difference. The good stuff is by subscription and tends to subtle to avoid the obvious potential political blowback should it be discovered by non-scientists but here are a couple of papers you can download:
    .
    http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~hannahk/conservatism.html
    .
    I’d also suggest reading Dave Neiwerts work for a sense of how extreme and hate-filled right-wing thinking really is:
    .

    .
    http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/
    .
    But the fact that you ridicule Altemeyer’s work tells me that either: a) you don’t understand social science at all or b) you’re in denial about what it shows about “conservatives”. Based on everything I’ve read of yours, I’m forced to conclude that it’s the latter. You’re psychologically committed to the false notion that there’s no fundamental difference in the psychology of different groups and that people on the right can be reasoned with and persuaded of the truth despite all the evidence to the contrary right before your very eyes.

  • newfreedomblog

    “Back in the day when the WPA was in full swing did conservatives complain about it being “government stimulus” that would bust the budget? Just wondering.
    nflfoghorn
    March 5, 2010
    at 2:41 pm”

    .
    Yes
    .
    And to my favorite progressives on this blog site, sheperdwrong and stuartzilchman
    .

    “We find some support for the traditional “rigidity-of-the-right” hypothesis, but it is also true that liberals could be characterized on the basis of our overall profile as relatively disorganized, indecisive and perhaps overly drawn to ambiguity — all of which may be liabilities in mass politics and other public and professional domains. Because we assume that all beliefs (ideological, scientific and otherwise) are partially (but never completely) determined by one’s needs, fears and desires, we see nothing pathological about this process. It is simply part of what it means to be human. Our “trade-off” model of human psychology assumes that any trait or motivation has potential advantages and disadvantages, depending on the situation. A heightened sensitivity to threat and uncertainty is by no means maladaptive in all contexts. Even closed-mindedness may be useful, provided one tends to have a closed mind about appropriate values and accurate opinions; a reluctance to abandon one’s prior convictions in favor of new fads can be a good thing. The important task for social scientists is to identify the conditions under which each of these cognitive and motivational styles is beneficial, rather than touting one or the other as inherently and invariably superior.

    .
    http://www.sulloway.org/PoliticalOpinionNotPathology.htm

  • newfreedomblog

    As my witness for the lunacy of the left, I rest my case your honor.

  • stuartzechman

    shepherdwong:
    .
    LOL
    .
    Yes, I’m somewhat “psychologically committed to,” i.e. “am of the opinion that” the notion that people’s political ideas or religious beliefs aren’t really manifestations of their physiology, I confess.
    .
    It helps me not sound like a Maoist, it’s true.
    .
    Perhaps my lack of understanding of “social science,” by which you must mean something other than anthropology, psychology, economics and so on keeps me in this empiricism-less, unenlightened state.
    .
    I thought the fact that Altemeyer hangs his hat on a questionnaire which seeks to identify a quantifiable “Right Wing Authoritarianism scale” (or “RWA”) through Cosmo magazine personality tests such as “Do you agree from 1 to 10 with”:

    There is no “ONE right way” to live life; everybody has to create their own way.

    or

    You have to admire those who challenged the law and the majority’s view by protesting for women’s abortion rights, for animal rights, or to abolish school prayer.

    or

    This country would work a lot better if certain groups of troublemakers would just shut up and accept their group’s traditional place in society.

    or

    Our country desperately needs a mighty leader who will do what has to be done to destroy the radical new ways and sinfulness that are ruining us.

    or (my favorite)

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with nudist camps.

    might call into question some of this individual’s methods, but, hey! what do I know? I’m ignorant.
    .
    I hadn’t realized that to find Altemeyer’s apparent pseudo-science comedic was to reject social sciences altogether, but, at least according to you, I guess I have.
    .
    I mean, I really did think that this bit of scholarly achievement:

    So I didn’t ask you to answer the RWA scale to see if you’d find true happiness and fulfillment as a stormtrooper in some dictator’s army [phew, that's a relief].
    .
    It’s not a vocational test
    [unless you're applying for the stormtrooper position].
    .
    Instead, I wanted you to experience for yourself the instrument used to identify and study authoritarian followers. Most of what I have uncovered about authoritarianism, I have dug up with this tool, and now you know what it is and how it works.

    was some sort of joke, until I realized this guy was trying to be serious.
    .
    I mean, he admits that “most” of what he has “uncovered about authoritarianism” is due to an eHarmony profile he made up that asks respondents to equate “women’s” abortion rights and animal rights, and to evaluate their feelings on nudism. Don’t you find that in the least bit ridiculous?
    .
    I’m not “psychologically committed” –whatever that means– to the idea that there’s no “fundamental difference in the psychology” of various political groups (at least not in the way that I suppose I’m psychologically committed to my mother’s opinion of me), because I haven’t seen any preponderance of evidence that suggests such a thing isn’t the product of shoddy Grand Unifying Theory of Everything academic experiments.
    .
    I must say, it’s rather bizarre to find you have dedicated yourself to obvious, creationism-level pseudo-science, shepherdwong.
    .
    Come on, man. “RWA scale?” A measurable scale of “psychological conservatism” derived from 1000 responses to “There is absolutely nothing wrong with nudist camps“?
    .
    Surely you can’t be so in love with this theory that you’d claim that the fact that the right-wing arguers that come here aren’t persuaded by my arguments is evidence of a “fundamental difference” in the physical makeup of our brains that can be extrapolated across populations, right, shepherdwong?
    .
    The evidence in front of me is that persuading the people who can be persuaded is a long, hard campaign that must be fought with patience and integrity, and not explained away by reductive, crackpot pseudo-science/political theories, and that knowing the difference is more important than developing a new phrenology to measure it.
    .
    Help me out here, shepherdwong, are you putting one over on me? Is getting me to argue with this theory the most advanced form of trollery ever?

  • newfreedomblog

    “This simply means Rights and Freedom are up for sale, and that complete “Alienates” our, so called, “Inalienable Rights!”

    .
    Actually no, it is UN-alienable.
    .

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”

    .
    Perhaps you would learn something by reading the very first page of our blogsite.
    .
    http://www.newfreedomblog.com
    .

    “Webster’s 1828 dictionary defines unalienable as “not alienable; that cannot be alienated; that may not be transferred; as in unalienable rights” and inalienable as “cannot be legally or justly alienated or transferred to another.”
    .
    In other words, human beings are imbued with unalienable rights which cannot be altered by law whereas inalienable rights are subject to remaking or revocation in accordance with man-made law.
    .
    Inalienable rights are subject to changes in the law such as when property rights are given a back seat to emerging environmental law or free speech rights give way to political correctness. In these situations no violation has occurred by way of the application of inalienable rights – a mere change in the law changes the nature of the right.”

    .
    You see this is where our liberal/progressive friends are simply un-educated about unalienable versus inalienable rights. This is also why the first 9 “rights” given to us with the Bill of Rights were granted to the “individual” by the founders. And, the 10th amendment gives “rights” to the State, and unless specified otherwise, “the People”.
    .
    As you water down the Constitution and the Bill of Rights with more and more laws to “amend” these rights, you risk losing your individual rights to the Government who can also take them away as fast as they give them.

  • iamsource

    I stand corrected! However, it is not a lack of understanding that I have, only the incorrect word choice. I have read The Declaration of Independence several times, and well as the original Constitution. While I am not an expert on all of it, it does not require rocket science intelligence to understand. I accept your correction.

  • iamsource

    newfreedomblog,

    Perhaps you should update your dictionary. Here are the current definitions of Webster. It seems I chose my words accurately after all. Playing semantics with meaning is another conservative form of deception.

    unalienable
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unalienable

    Main Entry: un·alien·able

    Function: adjective

    Date: circa 1611

    : inalienable

    inalienable
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inalienable

    Main Entry: in·alien·able

    Function: adjective

    Etymology: probably from French inaliénable, from in- + aliénable alienable

    Date: circa 1645

    : incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred

  • iamsource

    Propaganda with hidden identity. Interesting tool of conservatives. Kinda like CIA starting wars and other conflicts to justify (create) an agenda against a perspective enemy. Oh yeah.., I can see right through this.

  • jcapan

    Excellent discussion here guys. Would love to weigh in but after a 6 hr. hike in the rain, I’m spent. Took a nasty spill, full weight on one elbow. Came home to discover a sleeve full of blood and the flesh surrounding said elbow can best be described as split. Iodine-induced scream rent the peace of my neighborhood. F@cking crazy foreigners, I know they’re thinking.

  • stuartzechman

    Oregon JC:
    .
    You take care of yourself.
    .
    Sounds like there isn’t any permanent damage, so be proud of your battle scars.

  • shepherdwong

    “Help me out here, shepherdwong, are you putting one over on me?”
    .
    Nope, you’re doing it all by yourself:

    …I’m…of the opinion that…people’s political ideas or religious beliefs aren’t really manifestations of their physiology, I confess.

  • kevin

    Why is nobody paying any attention to the constitutionality of the mandate to have insurance? When a majority of state Republican governors have already indicated they will take the issue into court, I suspect it is more than political grandstanding but probably has some legal merit.
    .
    Just because Republican Governors make noise about it, that doesn’t make it so. Rick Perry thinks Texas can secede from the Union. Do you think that would hold up in court too?
    .
    So where does the Great Obama, a purported constitutional expert (self-proclaimed?) find the chutzpah to sign legislation whose major initiative is going to be tossed by the courts? And what will the reform look like when the mandate is stricken?
    .
    Obama was proclaimed an expert in constitutional law by the University of Chicago Law School, actually. And he clearly knows a hell of a lot more than you do on this. Even conservatives like Eugene Volokh have said they don’t think the mandate will be struck down by the courts.
    .
    Just because Fox News is hyperventilating about this, doesn’t make it so. Last summer, even Republican Senators like Charles Grassley were saying that everyone knew the mandate was constitutional. Now they’ve decided to make an issue out of it, so they’ve flip-flopped.
    .
    I would like to see some constitutional scholars argue this in public – before the vote.
    .
    Do you not have access to Google? Plenty of constitutional law experts (even some self-proclaimed ones) have argued this in public.
    .
    http://www.healthreformwatch.com/2009/08/25/is-it-unconstitutional-to-mandate-health-insurance/
    .
    http://www.slate.com/id/2224258/
    .
    http://www.medcitynews.com/2009/12/is-a-health-insurance-mandate-unconstitutional-medcity-morning-read-dec-15-2009/

  • shepherdwong

    A couple of things, Stuart. The fact that you had to restate/change the argument from one about psychology to “physiology” is another clue that, deep down, you don’t really believe what your saying, i.e., you know what I’m saying is true – again, you see it with your own eyes on a continuous basis.
    .
    Second, a survey question for social science purposes isn’t invalidated because you think it sounds funny. It’s useful if different people give different answers to the same question. And a question that asks people to make a moral judgment about people’s freedom to choose to be nude seems as though it could be quite useful and the resulting data seems to bear that out. You owe Dr. Altemeyer an apology.

  • sacredh

    There’s nothing sadder than a righty disguising himself as a lefty and spouting what they think liberals are all about. Unless you count the pay per view of Palin playing Trivial Pursuit (I’d like to buy a vowel).

  • stuartzechman

    shepherdwong:

    you had to restate/change the argument from one about psychology to “physiology”

    It’s not a restatement, you must be changing the emphasis of your propositionsl
    .
    “Physiology” comes from this argument you made:


    right-wingers have different psychology and motivations than left-wingers and, by adulthood, it is somewhat hard-wired

    You’re allowing whatever positivism that can be crudely applied to social and political theory to overwhelm you with needless (and under-supported) determinism.
    .
    Can the overly deterministic fringe theory (that just happens to confirm the superiority of your politics), and settle back into a reasonable skepticism, shepherdwong. It doesn’t mean you’re required to accept Great Men of History ideology, just that, at this time, social theory modeling (like economic theory modeling) is inadequate as a means for explaining and predicting human thought processes beyond the laboratory and its limited questions.

    a survey question for social science purposes isn’t invalidated because you think it sounds funny

    Of course not.
    .
    Surveys, including those that ask respondents wildly funny questions, are a part of the experimentation process. It’s not ridiculous to posit that these are effective positivist tools for evaluating social theory, but it’s not even close to a settled question that positivist methods can even be applied successfully to the validations of social theory.
    .
    What’s funny, what’s ludicrously funny, is the absurd linkage between this person’s conception of “left” or “right” ideology and the content of these questions.
    .
    Just as Gallup fails when they ask respondents to answer questions about “individual rights” and then sort answers based on their own ideologically drawn lines between their premises of rightism (“freedom”) and leftism (“state control”), so Altemeyer laughably discredits himself.
    .
    What rigorous, positivist testing did Altemeyer employ to determine that “rightist authoritarian” means an opposition to what the acceptance of nudism implies, as opposed to “leftist authoritarianism?” Does Altemeyer believe that Maoist China was littered with nudist camps? It’s just one example of how silly the premises of these questions are, and how badly Altemeyer failed to live up to the rigors of science.
    .
    The whole exercise is so absurdly fraught with subjective presumptions and pre-conclusions that any objective person, i.e. not purely invested in disqualifying rightist political thought, can observe that foolishness and chuckle ruefully.
    .
    This sort of sloppy, disorganized thought is indefensible.
    .
    That this reliance on poorly tested theory leads you to be overly deterministic about others’ political thought and action –about individuals– should be the big red flag that tells you to step back and assess, shepherdwong, lest you fall into the same errors as the Marxists or the structuralists.
    .
    People are individuals. Anything can happen.

  • shepherdwong

    What rigorous, positivist testing did Altemeyer employ to determine that “rightist authoritarian” means an opposition to what the acceptance of nudism implies, as opposed to “leftist authoritarianism?”

    The whole exercise is so absurdly fraught with subjective presumptions and pre-conclusions…

    So, you haven’t actually read Altemeyer’s results and you don’t understand how social science works anyway. Got it.
    .
    And again, no one has to rely “on poorly tested theory” to know that the authoritarian indoctrination, false beliefs and resentments of right-wingers render them impervious to logic and reason. Based upon what we witness every single day from right-wingers, it is absolutely incredible that any rational observer would suggest such a thing.
    .
    Here’s your “human thought processes beyond the laboratory”:
    .
    http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2010/03/respect.html

  • shepherdwong

    And here I am, “allowing whatever positivism that can be crudely applied to social and political theory to overwhelm [me] with needless (and under-supported) determinism,” whatever the f*ck that means:
    .
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/3/6/843551/-Saturday-hate-mail-a-palooza
    .
    Really Stuart, buy a clue already. You can’t reach or teach these people and the fact that they happen to be brainwashed and hate-filled to the point of functional insanity doesn’t validate me or my politics in any way. The last thing I would ever do is measure myself against them.

  • shepherdwong

    Hey, thanks dude but you left out the best part (I’m shocked!):

    Based on this literature, we found that the likelihood of adopting conservative rather than liberal political opinions is significantly correlated, among other psychological dimensions, with a sense of societal instability, fear of death, intolerance of ambiguity, need for closure, lower cognitive complexity and a sense of threat.

  • stuartzechman

    you don’t understand how social science works anyway
    .
    That’s like saying “You don’t understand how economics works, anyway.
    .
    First of all, there is no “social science.” There are disciplines of study of various sorts, some of which are really humanities, not “science” in the material sense of the word.
    .
    That you would say something like “you don’t understand social science” is puzzling, since that phraseology seems itself to indicate a lack of understanding…almost a reverent lack of understanding.
    .
    Second of all, saying that certain people of a certain ideology are impossible to convince is different that saying that they’re irreparably psychologically damaged and prone to bad political thoughts and opinions.
    .
    I don’t have to be convinced that rightists don’t belong to the reality-based community, shepherdwong. You don’t have to tell me to go read what passes for communication at RedState, or to watch a Ted Haggard sermon. I am perfectly aware of what rightism sounds like, and how ultimately crazee many, many rightist activists allow themselves to be.
    .
    The problem is that they’re kicking our asses, shepherdwong. Thirty years’ worth of creating and abandoning psycho-sociological theories to rely upon just hasn’t been doing the job of helping the people to stop sympathizing with popular rightism, rightist activists and their elite sponsors.
    .
    Let’s face it: I have a different set of theories on how humans operate, and how best to achieve our political and social goals. It’s theory that doesn’t happen to posit that rightism is a largely incurable pathology burned into human synapses upon adulthood, to which a certain population is particularly psychologically susceptible.
    .
    I haven’t buttressed these theories by asking 1000 respondents to grade their own feelings about public nudism, true, but I don’t find that particular methodology terribly credible anyway, and reputable psychologists are telling us that we’re not meant to draw the kind of conclusions you’re drawing from real, credible work, anyway.
    .
    Just listen to yourself, shepherdwong. Every time you tell me to look at how crazee they are, I tell you “Yes, so?,” and then you tell me I’m in denial.
    .
    I’m not in denial, I’m just not going to give up on my fellow citizens and my country.
    .
    Look, if American politics were somehow becoming infested with a very sympathetic kind of Scientologist, and a huge number of the population had so little information about how their world worked that they found these Scientologists credible, and voted them into office, would you try to theorize about the susceptibility of certain humans to Scientology, or would you try to talk sense into people?

  • jcapan

    Thanks SZ. My wife returned from a trip last night and said it looked like the elbow was trying to shed its skin.
    .
    So, you blokes are still at it!? From my stance on the fence, it occurs to me that this discussion is overly focused on this reaching out to right-wingers/teabaggers. I’ve never thought that was SZ’ primary vehicle for growing liberalism, though he favors speaking to them with respect. As the dem party is currently led, we have no populist message to convey to rightists or independents or even centrists in our ranks. What is obvious is that true liberals are even a slimmer cut of the cake in America that the nutters. And if we (or you on US soil) wish to grow those numbers and hearken back to the days of LBJ or FDR, then we have to craft a message that speaks to those beyond our ranks. At present, we do not, with Alan-Grayson or Russ-Feingold exceptions.
    .
    So, I’m with you Shep (& Digby) about the core nature of that movement–I have desire to engage with them, respectfully or otherwise. Evidence indicates they’re simply a vehicle to redeem the GOP. And, it’s my sad duty to say, it’ll almost assuredly work. I would maintain that the libertarians are a separate beast, but, unlike Jane Hamsher, I see no way to reconcile the divide between us and them.
    .
    Despite all this, I guess the focus of liberals has to be on crafting their own narrative, on reaching out to those who think liberalism is pejorative term, on passing legislation that backs up their lofty election-time rhetoric and benefits their constituents, during these brief windows when dems are in power (IMO these periods will remain transient and fleeting as long as they lead like the DLC). And expecting any of this is naive at best given the $ involved.
    .
    So, I guess I agree with both of you to an extent, FWIW. But Shep I don’t see where your calling the wingers stupid mantra, calling out Reaganite dogma is a winning formula for progress. If that’s all the netroots can manage to do, we’re going nowhere. Such dogma is only lasting & successful to the extent that its counter (liberalism) is bankrupt in America, as it’s been since Nixon. We can blame the stupid for buying into ideology that’s destroyed their lives, but dems have proven themselves woeful failures for decades.
    .
    SZ is on the right track, but I sometimes think he’s selling a bill of goods completely disconnected from the corporation for which he’s ostensibly working. i.e. From within the dem party, you’re part of the institution. No matter how much you strive to distinguish between centrist and liberal, the fact remains that you’re a member of party in the end. All your lofty ideals, of what liberalism truly stands for, isn’t that somewhat called into question when your audience sees nothing but faux liberalism in practice. Until we’re prepared to put the party in jeopardy, to threaten their profitable tenure in DC, aren’t we all in the veal pen? We piss and moan, but for how many years does liberalism remain in the wilderness.

  • jcapan

    I have [no] desire…

  • jcapan

    BTW, would both of you agree with this scenario?
    .
    We take 10 million liberals and settle a new territory somewhere–how long would it take for rightist ideology to crop up? How long until inevitable divides settle into place?
    .
    I’ve always maintained that our upbringing defines who we are as people–that there are two diff. courses we can take ideologically. For simplicity’s sake, I call these the socialist course or the fascist course, but they’re really identities. Like born-again Christians, huge changes in ideology can be adopted, particularly when they reinforce the way we want to live our lives or see the world.

  • shepherdwong

    “First of all, there is no “social science.” There are disciplines of study of various sorts, some of which are really humanities, not “science” in the material sense of the word.”
    .

    The social sciences are the fields of academic scholarship which explore aspects of human society.[1] Social sciences may draw upon empirical methods and attempt to emulate the standards of conventional scientific practice. By contrast, other social scientists employ critical analysis or hermeneutic methods to study objects of enquiry they regard as inconsistent with the conventional approach.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_sciences

    .
    The point is, [good] social science isn’t “absurdly fraught with subjective presumptions and pre-conclusions” any more than the “hard” sciences are. In fact, there is probably less hypothesizing in social science due to the general inability to test those hypotheses in the laboratory. Feel free to show me any subjective presumptions and pre-conclusions in Altemeyer’s work.
    .
    .
    “I am perfectly aware of what rightism sounds like, and how ultimately crazee many, many rightist activists allow themselves to be.”
    .
    Then what’s the psychological mechanism that allows them – as opposed to you or I – to remain so ultimately crazee when constantly exposed to the alternative reality we share?
    .
    .
    “The problem is that they’re kicking our asses, shepherdwong. Thirty years’ worth of creating and abandoning psycho-sociological theories to rely upon just hasn’t been doing the job of helping the people to stop sympathizing with popular rightism, rightist activists and their elite sponsors.”
    .
    Neither has attempting to reason with them, Stuart, that’s the whole f*cking point. The reason they’re “kicking our asses” is because their dogma, lies and insanity have been normalized and mainstreamed, rather than being flat-out rejected for what they are. That’s also the point: you can’t meet lies and insanity half-way without validating them.
    .
    And that mainstreaming of right-wing dogma and the hostile rejection of liberalism and active government has been calculated and done intentionally by certain “conservative” corporatist elites because it serves their parochial interests. That’s what the modern conservative movement is in a nutshell: a set of lies and false dogma designed to inculcate the psychological susceptible in hostility toward liberalism to keep the electorate from using government to regulate business and enact progressive tax law.

  • shepherdwong

    “We take 10 million liberals and settle a new territory somewhere–how long would it take for rightist ideology to crop up? How long until inevitable divides settle into place?”
    .
    Not long. The importance of Bob Altemeyer’s work is really showing the range of authoritarian-following tendencies in a given population (we’ve already learned the terrifying individual capacity for authoritarian-following from Milgram and Zimbardo). But leadership and social context matters – a lot. That’s why we have an authoritarian, militaristic and destructively competitive society while others do not, even sharing the same relative proportions of people with authoritarian-following (and other socially-debilitating) tendencies. Again, this is why liberalism and liberal leaders are viciously denigrated and marginalized by the forces of corporatist conservatism and that’s the one page from their play book we should make use of.

  • stuartzechman

    We take 10 million liberals and settle a new territory somewhere–how long would it take for rightist ideology to crop up? How long until inevitable divides settle into place?
    .
    Not long.
    .
    Probably one generation, perhaps over a number of pre-generational cycles, like electoral events.
    .
    Rightist ideology at its heart is about not risking the loss of what is known in pursuit of betterment.
    .
    Even liberals don’t know everything, and so there would be something important that might be both threatened by a new progressive regime, and false.
    .
    So there would be the equivalent of the knowledge of the habits of ghosts amongst liberals, i.e. something that everyone knows, that explains phenomena and orders lives, but isn’t true, and yet people would act to preserve its false value as if it were the method for processing olives into olive oil
    .
    That is rightism at its worst, the inability to distinguish between the value preserving ancient wisdom, and the horror of enforced ignorance.
    .
    Obviously I disagree entirely with shepherdwong’s ideas on what rightism is, how it forms or how it’s maintained.
    .
    Very, very interesting discussion to be had in the commentary of Time’s political blog.
    .
    Thanks to both of you.

  • shepherdwong

    “Obviously I disagree entirely with shepherdwong’s ideas on what rightism is, how it forms or how it’s maintained.”
    .
    Nevertheless, it was a good discussion, thanks. I don’t think we’re that far apart really, if you understand how “ultimately crazee” rightism is. I have no doubt that you’ll eventually realize how “permanent” that psychological condition is among the right-wing base and the rest should fall into place as well. Here’s a little bit on “how it forms [and] how it’s maintained” to help you along:
    .
    http://hnn.us/articles/1244.html

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