In the Arena

This Is Getting Good

Jim Bunning is doing all of us a favor. As this comment from the Number 2 Senate Republican, Jon Kyl of Arizona, makes clear, the Republicans are turning toward a form of reactionary radicalism that is well to the right not only of traditional conservatism, but also of post-Victorian concepts of government and–not to put too fine a point on it–of common decency as well:

Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona, the Republican whip, argued that unemployment benefits dissuade people from job-hunting “because people are being paid even though they’re not working.” Unemployment insurance “doesn’t create new jobs. In fact, if anything, continuing to pay people unemployment compensation is a disincentive for them to seek new work,”

The idea that those who have lost their jobs in this Wall Street/mortgage-scam recession are simply deadbeats, choosing to stay on unemployment rather than look for work, seems more appropriate to Scrooge’s London than the 21st century. But Kyl has spoken his version of the truth, and we should be grateful for that: this is what the Republican Party is now all about. The America they–and the Tea Partiers–want would have no Medicare or Medicaid or Social Security (just ask the rising Republican star, Paul Ryan, who would privatize them all), no social safety net, no environmental or workplace regulations, no highway or infrastructure building. It would more Hume than Adam Smith, who would be considered a socialist by current Rush/Beck standards. This is what they are selling and, according to CNN, what 56% of the American people are currently buying–the idea that the federal government is a threat to their freedom. This is not conservative government, but the absence of government.

And so, again: Let’s call the roll. Let’s see how many allies Jim Bunning and Jon Kyl have. Let’s find out their names and remember them. This is so important that we should stop all other business: Let them filibuster…and spend hours telling us exactly what else they would abolish.

Related Topics: jim bunning, jon kyl, unemployment, Uncategorized
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  • kevin

    Amen.

  • Matt

    Surely the GOP cannot stand by this fr much longer. And why aren’t the Dems or the White House making a bigger deal out of this? Make the Bunning filibuster and the ridiculous comments from Kyl stick to the GOP like glue.

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • diecash1

    Shorter Kyl: Screw the “little people”
    ..
    Talk about tone-deaf and out of touch with everyday Americans. These idiots are unbelievable. I agree with JK, make these morons filibuster for all they are worth. Americans should hear the hateful idiocy they spout.
    ..
    One more shout out for KT’s “Make Them Filibuster” campaign too.

  • kbanginmotown

    Can “Let them eat cake” be far behind?

  • diecash1

    Viva la Revolucion!

  • 53_3

    Joe:
    .
    I noticed that at last weekends’ “Joe Klein” wormfest, many of the drudge spirochetes were complaining about jobs.
    .
    Besides the fact that that was the first time I ever realized that the agents of an STD (on a national level, yet!) could keyboard, I also knew that they were somewhat uninformed, given the rate we were able to shoot down their arguments, most of which were kneejerk FOX.
    .
    The big question is though, how long before those drudgies realize they really should have engaged Jim Bunning?

  • shakrai

    Painting with a bit of a broad brush, are we? Or have you really interviewed all of the “Tea Partiers” and know what they stand for?

  • shakrai

    “Talk about tone-deaf and out of touch with everyday Americans.”
    .
    I agree. It’s amazing that the Democrats keep pushing the health care bill when every single poll shows that a large majority of Americans are opposed to it.

  • diecash1
  • 53_3

    The fist drudge spirochete arrives on sched.
    .
    And yes, we do. May teabaggers have stated that they are not afraid of violence if they feel the need to resort to it.
    .
    Only two degrees of separation separates Al-Queda, Timothy McVeigh, and the teabaggers.
    .
    Oh, shakrai, if you want people to perceive conservatives as something other than hateful, violent, and bigoted, maybe you had better get your peers to STFU.
    .
    How you are perceived is your problem, not Joes, and certainly not ours!

  • 53_3

    see 5.1 as it is directed your way.
    .
    Stop whining until you get your peers to stop feeding their own self-generated perceptions!

  • stuartzechman

    Joe Klein:

    no Medicare or Medicaid or Social Security (just ask the rising Republican star, Paul Ryan, who would privatize them all)

    What’s the difference between Ryan’s ideas and your ideas (and George Bush’s) about Social Security and Medicare privatization plans five years ago?
    .
    link to Joe Klein advocating George Bush’s privatization in “The Incredible Shrinking Democrats”

    The Incredible Shrinking Democrats
    .
    Bush’s private investment accounts, combined with a reduction in benefits or higher taxes, is one way for baby boomers to lighten the burden of our retirement upon our children. There are other ways, but none without pain. A far more profitable—and absolutely necessary—reform would be a market-oriented overhaul of Medicare, but Dems just say no to that too.
    .
    All of which leaves Bush with a lot of room to lead. His speech last week was striking…It could easily have been delivered by a New Democrat
    .
    There is, then, a profitable discussion to be had between “ownership” Republicans and “third-way” Democrats about transforming the stagnant bureaucracies of the Industrial Age. Republicans refused to play during the Clinton presidency; the stunned and churlish Democrats are refusing now. It will be interesting to see whether Bush, at the height of his powers, actually tries to break the impasse.

    So, Joe Klein?
    .
    Why do you support George W Bush’s proposed privatization of “Medicare or Medicaid or Social Security,” but not Paul Ryan’s plans, which are almost identical?
    .
    Has something happened to derail that “profitable discussion to be had between “ownership” Republicans and “third-way” Democrats” for which you were pining during the Bush Administration, Joe Klein?

  • shakrai

    Call me a troll if that makes it easier for you to dismiss me.

  • 53_3

    I’d also add, as yet another syllogy (yes, 1/10,000th of a horselaugh, according to HL Mencken) to the mix:
    .
    The broad brush you speak of is one your own peers have handed us…

  • ohiolib

    Two degrees?? That’s about one and a half more than i see.

  • afguy

    shakrai,
    .
    Did you take an ACTUAL look at that hate-fest? 53_3′s being rather mind in his critique.

  • diecash1

    You dismissed yourself with that bit of obvious trollery. What, you can’t bear to admit it?

  • 53_3

    You are pretty easy to dismiss, shakrai.
    .
    Your fetid compatriots provided us with a large sample of teabagger opinions, and besides the typical empty insults (at least mine have some accuracy!), and kneejerk FOXisms, violence was always present, either dogwhistled or stated outright.
    .
    To me, Joe paints you spirochetes with too narrow a brush…

  • 53_3

    I was being generous. Their followers have only killed 9 Americans in terrorist acts (used to be 12, but the census guy and another were ruled not) as opposed to Al-Queda’s zilch.

  • shakrai

    My peers? You have me mistaken with someone else. I am not a member of GOP and have never voted for anybody in the GOP for any office higher than State Senator. Nor am I a member of the Tea Party movement.
    .
    I’m just a disillusioned Democrat turned independent who was foolish enough to buy into the Obama notion of a new kind of politics. I’m just a voter who was dumb enough to think that Obama was serious when he talked about respecting our civil liberties. I’m just a taxpayer who was gullible enough to believe him when he talked about making hard choices.
    .
    I guess it makes it easier for you to dismiss someone if you can picture them as a Rush Limbaugh listening far right wingnut.

  • pafro

    Listen, if media operations like Time Magazine, or the Washington Post, or Newsweek, or the NY Times had treated Jon Kyl and his wingman Lindsey Graham like two lepers who lied to the Supreme Court from the moment they, you know, lied to the Supreme Court, then maybe, just maybe we would have politicians acting a little less like freaks. They expect to get away with it. Bunning will get away with this because Michael Jackson’s monkey will die tomorrow and our media will have to do their tributes and all that; and the next Bunning will get away with it too.

    It is largely your fault that these people feel as though there are no repercussions for their actions.
    Article about Jon Kyl lying to the Supreme Court: http://www.slate.com/id/2138750/

  • 53_3

    Hey Guys!
    .
    Lookie here!
    .
    Got a live one!
    .
    Hmmmmm. Now just where have I heard this one before…
    .
    Hey, shakrai, does this mean you have black friends too?

  • 53_3

    afguy:
    .
    How do you roll a worm?

  • afguy

    Dunno… between your thumb and index finger?

  • shakrai

    6.2: No, I haven’t. But I do know a few people in the Tea Party movement. This may come as a surprise but not one of them has an objection to the Government building roads, protecting the environment or providing for a basic social safety net. They just have an objection to the seemingly endless growth of Government and the fact that they are all paying out nearly 50% of their income in taxes by the time you figure out the complete tax burden.
    .
    Just stop and think about that number for a second. That’s about what our tax burden is here in New York State if you own property. You don’t see anything wrong with having 50% of your earnings taken away from you?
    .
    In any case, I object to Mr. Klein’s opinion of the Tea Party movement. I don’t disagree with him about Senator Bunning. Seeing the GOP win in November will be worth it just to see Mr. Klein foaming at the mouth.

  • 53_3

    Well, shakrai, my comment at 5.1 goes for anyone who has a problem with the “broad brush” scenario.
    .
    The only thing I would say then is that if you are really, really, really as concerned about getting lumped into that group, maybe you need to add your voice to those who would or should criticize them!
    .
    That perception is their fault, not mine, nor Joe Kleins’ nor anyone else who has tagged you thusly.
    .
    Personally, I think you’re a ringer…

  • shakrai

    “Hey, shakrai, does this mean you have black friends too?”
    .
    You clearly aren’t worth anymore of my time.

  • 53_3

    afguy:
    .
    That works. I’ll take it!

  • stuartzechman

    53_3:
    .
    WTF?
    .
    Are you trolling for a fight?
    .
    Why the crap would you say something offensive like “does this mean you have black friends too,” as if the issue is yours to beat random people over the head with?
    .
    Jesus, the guy says he’s not a Republican, so why blame him for everything that the GOP-uber-alles crowd says in another thread?
    .
    If he’s a rightist, then attack his ideas for being false or wrong, not him personally for other people’s commentary.
    .
    Please, can’t you represent liberalism better than this?
    .
    Did that flood of rightists disturb you this much?

  • http://firstfarmandweatherreport.blogspot.com/ maxwelldog

    So, it seems you’ve found a way to stand on both sides of the same fence?
    The “broad brush” fence, that is.
    Just a moment ago putting the whip to Democrats who still see the glimmer of victory ahead of them? Yet, you decry them as losers and that “every single poll” shows that there are no fans of HCR… rubbish. Pure and simple.
    People with no homes can still vote. The HCR is very popular to folk who can’t afford Health Care but NEED it.
    .
    President Obama said it simply and quite plainly…
    “Why would we expect the American people to accept anything other than what government itself gets?”
    .

    Sad we can’t get the Senate more mixed, but, maybe a few less R will help. Fill in with some Independents and Libertarians.

  • deconstructiva

    But I do know a few people in the Tea Party movement. This may come as a surprise but not one of them has an objection to the Government building roads, protecting the environment or providing for a basic social safety net.

    …and how are these paid for? By royalties from Sarah’s book sales? Maybe used by all / paid by all isn’t so bad when everyone kicks in.

  • afguy

    I’m still curious, shakrai… Based on WHAT platform and positions?
    .
    Cutting taxes? To what level? Cutting what government services to compensate? Still leaving defense off of the cut list?
    .
    Inquiring minds want to know what it is – EXACTLY – the Tea Party has to offer… beyond, of course, “we’re pissed at government and we hate libruls… vote for us”.

  • 53_3

    Well, shakrai,
    .
    No, I don’t. I know teabaggers too, many of them. My family saw them when they elbowed their way through the Black Family Reunion crowd (660,000 in number) from the back of that venue.
    .
    They did it for two reasons:
    .
    1. An attempt at intimidation. They were rude, and carried provocative signs, particularly to the Black community.
    .
    2. An attempt to inflate aerial estimates of crowd size by mixing with the much larger crowd.
    .
    Do you know why there was no reaction from the Black Americans gathered there?
    .
    There were children present!

  • apr2563

    Matt: It always amazes me that the Dems are so lacking in aggressive p.r. There should be dems all over tv and the written press demonizing Bunting and his Senate supporters. Granted, Dems don’t have Fox and hate radio to toss the nasty, but where there is a will there should be a way.
    Facist, anti working man and woman, corporate shills, always against the basic needs of the American people, unpatriotic, traitorous..I don’t care. Make the spaghetti stick.

  • diecash1

    “You don’t see anything wrong with having 50% of your earnings taken away from you?”
    ..
    Well, for starters, your earnings are not taken away from you. You receive a variety of public works and services for that tax money. We can argue over what is an acceptable level of taxation or over the efficiency of the government in using that tax money but it’s disingenuous to say that it is just taken from you.

  • shakrai

    8.5: Don’t feed the trolls. It’s not worth it.

  • kevin

    You’re better than that, shakrai.
    .
    http://www.kff.org/kaiserpolls/8042.cfm

  • 53_3

    SZ:
    .
    He’s a ringer. Otherwise, your comment is noted, but mine is no worse than others.

  • ohiolib

    This thread was actually amusing till this

    Hey, shakrai, does this mean you have black friends too

    Just plain inflammatory, plain and simple. There are much better things to make fun of trolls for, and even much better trolls to poke. Go wave a turban at 2/3s and get him to propose mass murder again or something.

  • 53_3

    I apologize for the personal attack implicit on shakrai in that statement.
    .
    Carry on.

  • stuartzechman

    Thanks for at least listening to my criticism, 53_3, I appreciate that.

  • 53_3

    Yours and ohiolibs.
    .
    I do go over the top, sometimes. It’s pretty edgy, by definition.
    .
    At least I will recognize. Thanks.

  • http://firstfarmandweatherreport.blogspot.com/ maxwelldog

    rhetorical questions have with them a margin of error.
    And this one is no different.
    Look at the question from the standpoint of knowiing now that Bush junior bankrupted a fair slice of American life while he held office.
    Consider for a moment if he had had his way?
    People bought stocks and bonds from such rising stars as Enron, or AIG, or GMC. CitiCorp.

    privatization is some difficult land, because there is money floating around (presumably loose) and there are always sharks about.
    Hungry sharks who can smell a penny on the bottom of an outhouse.
    But, it isn’t necessarily a good thing. As the small amount of companies I named suffered at the hands of a political moonbeam. Glad ever so glad for the common sense shown to refuse the hand.
    So……..
    Your thoughts are that it would have been good? I mean, you throw such a curve ball as to confuse what you’re saying.
    Should we, in your opinion, be able to gamble our puny money in the market?

  • 53_3

    Actually, to make point here, this weekend I was trolling for a fight on JK’s thread. Thoroughly enjoyable, I must add.
    .
    However, I think, until there is another infux of drudgebots, I should refrain. After all, I certainly don’t want to turn every thread into a slog.

  • shakrai

    6.11: I can only speak to my state, but here in NYS I see public sector unions lining up at the trough while the rest of us suffer. You’ll forgive me if I don’t feel like I’m receiving the most value for my taxes when a minority of well connected people receive raises and benefits completely out of proportion to what us peons in the private sector are getting.
    .
    It’s excesses like those that turn people into Republicans you know. Want a personal example? A few months ago I was standing in line at the grocery store and witnessed a woman paying for $100 of booze with cash while putting the rest of her groceries on a state issued benefits card. She did this while talking on a top of the line smart phone.
    .
    Now I realize that such examples aren’t indicative of everybody who needs to use such programs but you can’t seriously expect taxpayers not to get a little bit bitter when they see stuff like that. You can’t seriously expect them not to get bitter when they see public sector workers lining up for raises while the rest of us are having our benefits cut if we are lucky and being laid off if we are not. You can’t seriously expect them not to get bitter when they flip open the newspaper and read about the latest bridge to nowhere in some well connected Congress-critters district.
    .
    Personally my anger at Washington goes much deeper than that. Do you know what Gerrymandering is? Do you realize that our elected officials are picking their voters? Do you realize that for most Americans voting for their Congressman is a formality?
    .
    I may not agree with all that the Tea Party stands for but I certainly understand the frustration that is behind the movement. When I visit Swampland and read the dismissive and scornful posts about them it makes me distrust your side even more. You guys are completely tone deaf if you think the Tea Party movement doesn’t represent real frustrations that people have with our system of government. You ignore them at your own peril.

  • pafro

    All the people I know that are teabaggers are either retired and on the dole or are wealthy leeches like Dick Armey that probably pay less than the 24% I paid last year (federal withholdings Medicare, and SS).

  • 53_3

    I think had Social Security been successfully privatized, a very large number of people would have been reduced to penury right now, and the backlash politically on the GOP would have been severe.
    .
    However, when one considers what would have to have been done next, what a bailout might have looked like would have been a study in difficult choices.
    .
    We would have nearly instantly expanded the size of the lowest economic classes in the USA…

  • 53_3

    I think the teabaggers rely heavily on manufactured concerns, as evinced by their peers…

  • midya

    klein, why, oh why do you dems who assert that you are so enlightened always caricature the opposite argument instead of addressing it? you are only proving that you cannot win a battle of ideas. come on,

    “The idea that those who have lost their jobs in this Wall Street/mortgage-scam recession are simply deadbeats, choosing to stay on unemployment rather than look for work, seems more appropriate to Scrooge’s London than the 21st century.”

    you know that this is not the issue. it is not about wheather or not unemployed people are deadbeats or not. how can you sleep at night being so disingenuous and attacking good people who are trying to run a fiscally responsible nation vs spending the next generation’s money.

  • 53_3

    Gerrymandering is no stranger to the GOP either. Look at Texas…

  • shakrai

    6.14: I think you are a racist idiot who wouldn’t know critical thinking if it walked up to you and slapped you across the face.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering <– Go educate yourself and then tell me that I don't have good cause to be disillusioned and angry with my government.

  • shakrai

    “Gerrymandering is no stranger to the GOP either. Look at Texas…”
    .
    Since I’ve already established that I’m not a Republican I can think of no reason for you to bring that up other than to try and rationalize the behavior of your own side.

  • 53_3

    Also, I should mention that Dick Armey’s Freedomworks is heavily funded by HCICs. What is also particularly interesting is that the idea of “taxation without representation” as perceived by those in self-described “real America” is absolutely false.
    .
    The rural subsidies that keep our rural population from suffering the vagaries of rural populations in other countries that don’t pay for the infrastructure that that particular tax base cannot afford keeps our country strong.
    .
    That concept should actually apply to urban taxpayers more than anyone else, as urban taxpayers get a negative return on their tax dollar whereas lightly populated areas get a net positive benefit from their tax dollars. I don’t have a problem with the negative benefit for the reasons just described above.
    .
    The 50% tax bracket actually doesn’t exist, unless they are paying taxes that push their taxes above the highest income braket. whom I have no sympathy for whatsoever.

  • stuartzechman

    Thanks, 53_3.

  • shepherdwong

    I was trying to figure out what was essentially different from Reagan-era “starve the beast” where the “goal is to cut government in half in twenty-five years, to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub,” philosophies and strategies of movement conservatives for like thirty years. Perhaps seeing even “moderate” Republicans reveal themselves as completely craven when faced with the logical conclusion of the party’s mainstreamed anti-government rhetoric has opened a few “centrist” eyes to what that really means.

  • 53_3

    So you are saying that FOX is fair and balanced?
    .
    I’ve been around during the years of Pravda, and I know what a propaganda station is like.
    .
    Do you recall Hannity’s sudden “greening” of the foliage during his coverage of the 9/12 demonstrations?
    .
    How about the coverage of the House Health Care Summit, where Obama’s responses were squelched, and relegated to a corner of the screen while FOX talking heads “critiqued” the proceedings?
    .
    All very Pravda-like to me. All the hallmarks of a propaganda network. Rush Limbaugh and Beck further the perception of manufactured concerns, as there are no socialists or communists whatsoever.
    .
    The “racist” comment will get a pass. See comments below with SZ’s criticism. I’m not concerned with it, nor am I concerned about it.

  • kevin

    The Daily Show is all over this, by the way, calling out the Democrats for not forcing Bunning to really filibuster.

  • diecash1

    As I said, we can argue over efficiency but I am certain that almost all of us would prefer a government that worked better for the majority of Americans.
    ..
    I understand your frustration but I don’t see that the Republicans have offered any solutions, now or in the previous 30 years or so.
    ..
    “Do you know what Gerrymandering is?”
    ..
    Yes I am quite familiar with the redistricting process. Tom Delay and the Republicans made this an art form after the 1990 census was completed. Texas is the epicenter for gerrymandered districts. I would support a non-partisan panel that would be responsible for all redistricting as the current system is undeniably broken.
    ..
    As for the tea party, I understand their frustration too. What I find disingenuous about the movement (setting aside the Dick Armey astroturf bits) is that there was none of this outrage during the pathetic eight years of W. All of a sudden, in March of 2009, up sprouts the tea party; combine this with the astroturf and I’m a bit suspicious.
    ..
    The other part of the tea party that is troubling is that when polled, these people haven’t the first clue about much of anything. 98% of them didn’t know that taxes were cut for 95% of taxpayers under the Democrats and Obama. They are equally clueless when asked about any other issues, not to mention much of the hateful rhetoric they have spread. Populist outrage is a dangerous thing and many of these people seem to be idiots.

  • 53_3

    On 6,.16, see my comment at 5.4, which should have been here.
    .
    The “racist” comment will pass, as I did attack you. See comments to SZ below.

  • sechandler912

    I confess I’m not sifting through all the messages, but if you all I assume agree with the author, you’re quite naive. I am a social worker, and I’ve heard plenty of people professionally and in social circles comment that they gave up working because they can’t make more than ui, or they are just going to live on ui because they can stay home with their kids, or… Just keeping it real, people. It DOES create disincentives–all entitlements do. Look at the word – entitle… You DESERVE it. Poor us, life’s gotten hard, and now someone needs to take care of me… That’s what KIDS think, and DESERVE. Not adults. It’s not being mean, honestly. I love people, I sorrow when they’re hurting. I help those I can. Bad things happen to genuinely good people. But I don’t fear hurt, sacrifice, defeat, struggle–this culture now does. It’s such a bummer, because America was founded on those fast-fleeting principles, and it makes for strong men and women. Check out “success theory” and see how they spin defeats.

  • shakrai

    6.18:
    .
    “Also, I should mention that Dick Armey’s Freedomworks is heavily funded by HCICs. What is also particularly interesting is that the idea of “taxation without representation” as perceived by those in self-described “real America” is absolutely false.”
    .
    You need to get over this obsession with the GOP. I’m talking about very real frustrations that everyday people have with our POLITICAL SYSTEM. You keep reverting to pointing out how bad the GOP is. You seem to think the fact that the GOP is corrupt is an excuse for the Democrats to be the same.
    .
    “The 50% tax bracket actually doesn’t exist, unless they are paying taxes that push their taxes above the highest income braket. whom I have no sympathy for whatsoever”
    .
    What world are you living in where income taxes are the only taxes that we pay? Haven’t you ever heard of FICA? Of State income taxes? Of property taxes? Of sales taxes? Of excise taxes? Add them all up and it’s very easy to lose 50% of your income (or more) to taxes.

  • http://firstfarmandweatherreport.blogspot.com/ maxwelldog

    More of this “broadbrush shtuff?
    First, some of us would be glad to have our work back and a fair wage, too.
    Sen. Kyl did sounded like he was citing the Christmas Carol, or Oliver Twist. Poor people WANT to be unemployed.???
    Of course, what can you expect from a Professional Politician? Lord knows, he’s had some of the best to learn from.
    Meanwhile, as I understand it, most Republicans in Arizona don’t trust their own R. elected officials right now.

    But you use the point about unemployed (and, congratulations for staying on topic) but then dismiss it as “not the issue”…
    But, what is the issue then?
    (I’ll pass over your obvious copied commentary on his character…)
    “…attacking good people who are trying to run a fiscally responsible nation vs spending the next generation’s money.”
    ?

    Bush junior did that very well, didn’t he?
    Right up till just before he left, of course. Then we all found out that he had been floating budgets from one place to the other, the last bill…was that $780 BILLION?
    Lowered taxes for the richest of the nation, too.
    What timing. (untax the poor rich people)
    His Dad had to bite his own tongue to make up for the loss his predecessor laid on the country’s back. Arms for drugs? …”selling” star wars to us while all the while playing sea wars with Russia? Arming, training, and supplying bin laden? (talk about later generations paying for a mistake. Too bad he wasn’t alive to see what his idiocy caused.
    Truman scorched the Earth with Nukes. That couldn’t be a good thing, right?
    .
    There seems to be a missing link (or two dozen) in the connection there…unless of course, it’s only your opinion.

  • 3xfire3

    Stuart,
    You are correct. I hope my agreeing with you doesn’t create a problem for you with all the other liberals on this site.
    I been trying to communicate the same message but all I get from liberals is name calling and insults. They claim I’m closed minded but they are not willing to even listen to anyone else’s ideas.
    I read in one of John Stossel’s books how he was treated by the left when he changed from calling out dishonest business people and started calling out dishonest government people. After he wrote that book he found all of his liberal friends wanted nothing to do with him. He found that the only media people who invited him to appear on their shows were conservatives and how surprised he was that they were open minded enough to listen to what he had to say.
    John had been the hero of the liberals in his early years at 20/20. Now they would not even listen to what he had to say.
    No one has all the answers. We all need to learn from each other. I find most people on this site are not willing to do this.

  • shakrai

    6.19:
    .
    “Yes I am quite familiar with the redistricting process. Tom Delay and the Republicans made this an art form after the 1990 census was completed. Texas is the epicenter for gerrymandered districts.”
    .
    What is it with you people and your obsession with the GOP? I point out something that bothers me and you revert right back to attacking the GOP. Take a look at a map of New York State’s congressional districts sometime. Take a look at the bill that was introduced in Congress to end this practice and which Nancy Pelosi refuses to let get out of committee. YOUR OWN SIDE IS JUST AS GUILTY AS THE GOP IS OF CORRUPTING OUR POLITICAL PROCESS.
    .
    “What I find disingenuous about the movement (setting aside the Dick Armey astroturf bits) is that there was none of this outrage during the pathetic eight years of W.”
    .
    I find it disingenuous that Democrats were up in arms about GWB’s violations of our civil liberties but stand largely mute when Obama’s Justice Department declares that we have no expectation of privacy with regards to our cell phone records. I find it disingenuous that Democrats rail against GWB after many of them voted to authorize the Iraq War and a supermajority of them (70% in the House, 97% in the Senate) voted for the Patriot Act. Do you really want to go point for point with me or do you want to take off your blinders and own up to the fact that your party is half the reason why we have arrived at this point?
    .
    “and many of these people seem to be idiots.”
    .
    Why don’t you tell us how you really feel about your fellow citizens?

  • http://firstfarmandweatherreport.blogspot.com/ maxwelldog

    so we should just be glad to have paid unemployment tax all this time and now, “oh…that’s oK. You nice people just keep that. After all, we’ll just suffer along while you rebuild your elite lives among the stars. We’re used to it. Surely it won’t hurt us as much as it hurts those whose incomes are half a million or so. Yeah…you guys just go buy some new tires.

    Though I wouldn’t want you to think me naive.
    My stay in the Army brought many realizations, and one of them was that giving the Indian population free money just served to mollify (is that the right word? to make subservient) them, and indeed, worked.
    Of course, some realized it as a “White Guilt” and rightly so.

    However, there are more who get unemployment monies that want their jobs back than not. I’ll wager to guess this, though.
    Those who wore suits, don’t want to push brooms.
    While those who made housing go up would do ANYTHING they can for ANY kind of job.

  • Cliff

    the Republicans are turning toward a form of reactionary radicalism that is well to the right not only of traditional conservatism
    .
    So my question is, where have you been for the past 20 years? This “reactionary radicalism” has been going on for a long, long time.
    .
    post-Victorian concepts of government
    .
    What the hell does this mean?
    .
    a form of reactionary radicalism that is well to the right…of common decency as well
    .
    Is that to imply that “common decency” is a rightist principle?

  • diecash1

    You seem to have some serious sensitivity issues. First you start off in the thread with some obvious trollery and you don’t like being called on it. Then you mention the process of gerrymandering and when I or anyone else mentions the blueprint for it (and quite possibly the most egregious modern day example) in Texas under Delay’s direction, you cry again. What exactly is your problem? I especially like the way you cry about a perceived offense and you commit in the next sentence.
    ..
    As for my remarks about many of the tea party supporters, that’s my opinion based upon a variety of observations of their behavior and from listening to what they have to say. To you, apparently, they are all righteously indignant citizens with nary an idiot among them. I didn’t poll them but I read the polls and they are, in large part, grossly uninformed. You, on the other hand, are not exactly a supporter of facts or honest discussion are you? Continue to cry foul whenever you don’t like someone’s viewpoint, it’s definitely working for you.

  • Cliff

    I hope my agreeing with you doesn’t create a problem for you with all the other liberals on this site.
    .
    It’s hard for me to view you as arguing in good faith when you come out with this attitude.
    .
    It says to me that you don’t pay attention. We’re not some monolithic clique – we disagree with each other all the time, and we agree with conservative commenters when, and this is important, we feel that they are correct.

  • 3xfire3

    skakrai,
    As you may have noticed by know this is not a site for meaningful rational discussion. Most of these people will simply call you names and claim you are closed minded. Their stupidity drives most sane people away from the site so this small group of intellectual midgets can have their little lovefest.
    There are intelligent liberals out there, who can discuss the issues with rational ideas, but there’s only about one on this site and I don’t know how he can stomach associating with this bunch. The whole group does a major disservice to the liberal cause.

  • sechandler912

    You know, Maxwell, it’s not that there aren’t good, well-deserving people, perhaps like yourself, who can benefit from aid. How many times do I need to say this on this blogsite–it’s an art. YOU will NEVER take advantage, be sucked into the help and lose motivation… Maybe you are fine. But there are millions of others in this society of increasing “me first” mentality that will be negatively impacted. That’s the way it always is with helping. I’m a social worker, remember? Why do people think we can naively just help whoever whenever forever and think it works? I get the intent, I get the outrage, but is it working? Really, look at SOCIAL SECURITY… have you studied it? You’re not really thinking they have your ss monies put away somewhere earning interest waiting for you to retire do you? That you’re OWED that money, and they carefully only give to ssdi and the widows the INTEREST on that savings account? It’s not unemployment insurance… It’s a tax. And it ran out for most people, the benefits. They’re trying to make it possible, like the US govt keeps doing, to print money and pay for things that good intentions would like them to. Free money… it sounds lovely. They don’t have any more. Perhaps it’s in this credit culture now that people are so used to personally paying with credit that we no longer get the connection between bank accts and actions. We’re BROKE as a country, and the Chinese/Japanese, etc. are paying these unemployment benefits. I’m not making that up. What don’t we get about that. The Emperor is naked…

  • diecash1

    So your the bastion of all that is well and good in a discussion? Hypocrisy much?
    ..
    “….but all I get from liberals is name calling and insults. They claim I’m closed minded….”
    ..
    And you’re not are you?
    ..
    “Their stupidity drives most sane people away from the site so this small group of intellectual midgets can have their little lovefest.”
    ..
    So who’s doing all the name calling? That wouldn’t be you, the open-minded one of the “intelligent” discussion would it? Yeah, I thought not.

  • pintortwo

    @ shakrai 6.5
    (Tea-partyers) just have an objection to the seemingly endless growth of Government and the fact that they are all paying out nearly 50% of their income in taxes by the time you figure out the complete tax burden.
    .
    Then you must certainly agree with libertarians (tea-party is a libertarian movement, not Republican) that the military budget is wasteful and needs to be dramatically slashed in order for more efficient governance.
    .
    The military budget accounts for 54% of the total outlay of Federal Funds (link) as derived from income taxes.
    .
    We can start by reviewing the $382 billion in non-essential (predominantly new weaponry; apart from salary and war expenditure) military spending (link) for possible freezes or outright cuts.

  • http://polderjongen.wordpress.com/ Polderboy

    Actually, countries that have far better social welfare systems have far better unemployment statistics than the US.

    Take for example the Netherlands. They have had unemployment nrs this entire decade the US could only dream off: http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2433443.ece/Unemployment_at_3.7_percent_-_a_Dutch_miracle

    Social welfare doesn’t create disincentives, that’s a conservative trope. Oh, I too have heard countless people mention that they could just as well quit working and start collecting welfare. Or that they wanted to Go Galt.

    Nobody actually does it.

  • Cliff

    Crap, that was supposed to be on comment thread #8.

  • stuartzechman

    I find it disingenuous that Democrats were up in arms about GWB’s violations of our civil liberties but stand largely mute when Obama’s Justice Department declares that we have no expectation of privacy with regards to our cell phone records.

    Liberals were correctly outraged at offenses against the Bill of Rights perpetrated by the last administration, yes, but not “Democrats.” To the shock and amazed disgust of the left, the current President voted with a bloc of his centrist Democratic colleagues to retroactively immunize law-breaking telecom companies against charges of domestic spying, after promising he would filibuster a such bill. Liberals are currently outraged over the continuation of such flagrant anti-constitutional practices, and by Democratic Congressional acquiescence, again by that centrist bloc.


    I find it disingenuous that Democrats rail against GWB after many of them voted to authorize the Iraq War and a supermajority of them (70% in the House, 97% in the Senate) voted for the Patriot Act.

    It is disingenuous of centrist Democrats to pose as credible opponents of such disastrous policies after their support before and acquiescence during the current occupations. Liberals know this, and aren’t afraid to admit it.
    .
    New Democrats stand largely with, not against, radical theories of Executive power, expanded secrecy regimes and a bloated, accountability-less security state. They accomplished this by voting in a bipartisan fashion with Republicans during the last decade. Coincidentally, New Democrats oppose literally everything that liberal Democrats have introduced in the Congress, usually by threatening to filibuster with Republicans.
    .
    Liberals are revolted by these kind of Democrats, and are working to remove them from office and power.


    Do you really want to go point for point with me or do you want to take off your blinders and own up to the fact that your party is half the reason why we have arrived at this point?

    Our party is not half the reason why we have arrived at this point –less than half of our party is.
    .
    Liberal Democrats like Russ Feingold or Ron Wyden aren’t the problem, New Democrats like Joe Lieberman and Blanche Lincoln are.
    .
    Some liberals are so afraid of the popular right that they are willing to look the other way as centrist Democrats enact terrible policy after terrible policy –policy that would have been loudly (and correctly) denounced if it had been enacted by Republicans.
    .
    Having seen what this bloc of Democrats will do, more and more liberals aren’t as willing to tolerate the interests of the American people being betrayed as others might still be.
    .
    It’s only the lunatic screams of “Destroy the Marxist!” from the popular right that prevent many of us from uniting to throw these bums out. If the rightists truly were interested in saving the country, instead of indulging their own perverse victimhood fantasies, then they’d shut up and listen to what real liberals had to say about what’s happening in this country, and try to figure out how to work with the left to limit the excesses of the centrists –not liberals– in power now.
    .
    But rightist morons would rather satisfy their own tribal urges by calling us liberals –people who also believe in entrepreneurship, individual liberty and the Bill of Rights, but a version that believes that state and giant corporate power must be limited in order for capitalism to continue to benefit most Americans– “socialists” or “Marxists,” and so continue to fail to heed the call of our troubled country.

  • sasquatch08

    What’s really good is the fact that the former NYC Madam who provided hookers to Eliot Spitzer is now running for governor with major planks in her platform being the legalization of marijuana and prostitution which she claims will raise $3 billion in revenues for the state.
    .
    I have no idea what the real revenues would be, and I don’t think she will have any chance of winning, but if she shakes up the political establishment and gets discussion going on certain issues that would be freaking great and long overdue.
    .
    Yes it’s true; I’m not the right-wing nutcase some people on here think me to be.

  • stuartzechman

    Perhaps seeing even “moderate” Republicans reveal themselves as completely craven when faced with the logical conclusion of the party’s mainstreamed anti-government rhetoric has opened a few “centrist” eyes to what that really means.
    .
    Perhaps…perhaps they just dishonestly rode the tide of popular sentiment against the corruption and incompetence of the last decade into power, which they now defend.

  • stuartzechman

    3xfire3:
    .
    this small group of intellectual midgets can have their little lovefest
    .
    After the virtual orgy of commentary recently from rightists accusing the President of the United States of leading a secret communist-terrorist plot to destroy the American way of life, I think we’d be better off here if we all stayed away from blanket, inflammatory characterizations, don’t you?

  • allthingsinaname

    “This is what they are selling and, according to CNN, what 56% of the American people are currently buying–the idea that the federal government is a threat to their freedom.”
    .

    That is 56% have no problems, they think it will never reach them or their children.
    .
    It never is about your neighbor.

  • pintortwo

    I should add that I agree with you here, shakrai @ 6.22:

    I find it disingenuous that Democrats were up in arms about GWB’s violations of our civil liberties but stand largely mute when Obama’s Justice Department declares that we have no expectation of privacy with regards to our cell phone records. I find it disingenuous that Democrats rail against GWB after many of them voted to authorize the Iraq War and a supermajority of them (70% in the House, 97% in the Senate) voted for the Patriot Act.
    .
    (although it should be noted that Congress was told the same lies that we all were wrt the Iraq war, see here, for instance)
    .
    Glenn Greenwald wrote two posts about this common hypocrisy among Dems in office and supposed liberal pundits:
    .
    re civil liberties
    .
    re healthcare

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Jon Kyl is a man up to date with the times and some of these new, as they call themselves, “progressives” like William Jennings Bryan doesn’t wake up and realize that it isn’t the old century anymore but now 1910, there will be hell to pay at the polls.

    This guy is unreal! I was expecting his next line to be about the earth being flat!
    2010 and we have people so deep in denial!

  • apr2563

    53 Rachel Maddow had a good compilation of how Fox spreads Rep talking points through out the day. It is not the first time this has been noted.
    The talking point now from the Reps is that reconciliaton is the “nuclear option”, which of course is totally untrue.
    So the memo goes out from the Fox powers. It starts with the morning show, filters through the “straight” news shows and ends up on all the nightly opinion shows that there is a nuclear option. They do this time and again. Often they report as news their own Rep talking point: “It has been said…”.
    I am sure you have noted this and are aware. Somehow the Fox advocates can not see it. Unfortunately, the daily message is often picked up, undisputed by other news sources.

  • apr2563

    Stuart you are so right. As a liberal Democrat I have communicated time and again with my Senator’s office about the stripping of our privacy rights. Unfortunately, that Senator is the New Democrat, Diane Feinstein, the “centerist” praised so much by the traditional media. Guess what. She doesn’t listen.

  • apr2563

    Kevin, wasn’t that great? He really took on the whole disfunctional Senate. I always end my day with Stewart and Colbert to keep my sanity.
    I wonder, did baseball players wear helmets in Bunning’s day? He reminds me of the Coach in cheers (who unlike Bunning was lovable). Poor Coach was addlepated because he would purposefully find ways to get hit by the ball in order to get a walk. Maybe that explains Bunning (take away the lovable part).

  • jcapan

    Setting aside the media’s role in that 56%, perhaps a sizeable number of Americans feel the gov’t is their enemy (or at least not-the-solution) b/c for 30 years they’ve been forcefed Church-of-Reagan dogma. Sadly, in practice, under D & R adminstrations alike, the gov’t has been far more concerned with serving elite interests and not Main St. interests. And by D I mean C not L, O K?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    J
    Mildly confusing initials for somebody who just started blogging like me, but, i could not agree more.

    It has been proven again and again that the best way to stimulate job growth is to, through work projects or unemployment benefits, put it in the hands of people who are most needy and, they will promptly spend it on needed things. This goes on and on and is called the Money Multiplier in Economics. These theories go back to the 1930s but contradicted a conservative world view and, therefore, was ignored in public discourse.

    Even in business management theory it is considered an uncontested fact that, given the opportunity people like to work and do their jobs well. Everybody HATES being unemployed, so 99.999% of people getting unemployment benefits are eager to get out of the house and start feeling useful.

    Psychologists will tell that unemployed people get mildly depressed from being unemployed and are displeased about it.

    The Reagan world view is that when somebody has a desire to work hard, God comes down from the sky and opens a business across the street where there was none before and – boom – you are a millionaire who’s got those dirty liberals trying to tax away your money. Maybe you can be a C student from Eureka College (Eureka, a college accepted an idiot like me!) audition for a role and spend the rest of your life wealthy.
    Don’t get me wrong, I do have respect for actors as long as they are good actors

    From the business sector of the Republican party:
    They do not believe in any economic theories from later than the 1920.
    They do not believe in climate change.
    From the religious wing of the Republican party:
    They do not believe in evolution.
    Republicans overall:
    Do not believe experiences of other countries in terms of health care policy, funding for higher education, foreign policy or anything else of significance can be learned because Americans are a “special people”.

    Personally I think that anybody who supports all of these is a special education person in the tenth grade.

    This the legacy of the man who, during World War II bravely announced sports to our country, spent the first two years of his presidency blaming Carter for the bad economy and the last year of his presidency at the beginning of a five year long recession.

    We need to trained actors to be democrats!

    I hope at least one can act like they are vaguely concerned that their distinguished colleagues on the other side of the isle want to bring us back to 1910.

  • ricardo4max

    Only Time and CNN could depict honest patriotic Americans doing the right thing for their country as “reactionary radicalism”.
    And the “recession” is the result of the housing bubble and burst caused initially by the CRA and the Democrats and their henchmen (ACORN) bullying banks into lending mortgage money to their perceived voter base, those that can’t or won’t pay it back.
    Read Dennis Sewell of the BBC’s account.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/essays/all/2189196/clinton-democrats-are-to-blame-for-the-credit-crunch.thtml
    The Dems provided false guarantees to investors through their slush funds of Fannie and Freddie.

    Joe “Goebbels” Klein, Pravda would love a “journalist” like you.

  • ricardo4max

    Americans (hard working, middle class, small business owners, etc..) Know that Bunning and Kyl are right. We need to lower taxes and encourage business and capitalism rather than attack it. Extending handouts is not the way to recovery.
    Also, the Dems wanted to pass something called pay go or pay for any new expenditures yet they continue to handout our tax dollars like they were candy, rewarding folks who aren’t working.
    The questions are, “Why do Democrats want so many Americans to be on the dole? What do Democrats have to gain by having so many Americans dependent on government? (Power and control) With an increasingly eroding tax base, who will pay for this welfare?”
    The goose that lays the golden eggs is being suffocated.
    Obama and the Dems ( really now not Dems, but Marxists) want to destroy our form of gotv. and “remake’” us into a socialist state.
    Why don’t you NeoCommies on this board actually leave your trailers, basements and libraries and go out into the country and talk to REAL AMERICANS?
    Answer: It doesn’t fit with your distorted views of reality.

  • ricardo4max

    All the “hate” spewed that I hear is coming from the left. Interesting how you NeoCommies always project your behaviour onto your opponents or enemies as you think of us capitalists conservatives.
    How bitter jealous resentful and immature you on the left are.

  • Paul-no not that one

    So it started as a PayGo issue and has now accelerated into the evils of unemployment benefits?

    By Wednesday I expect to read A Modest Proposal.

  • ricardo4max

    3xfire3, You correct in your assessment of the left wing trolls that lurk here (10.2). This site seems to be as wacky and anti American as the Daily Kooks or HuffPo. They remind me of a bunch of 3rd grade playground bullies.
    It is fun, occasionally, to throw a fact into their cage and watch them run around like banshess shouting and cursing at it but never touching it.
    Gotta work now. There are quite a few freeloading NeoCommie posters depending on my hard earned tax money.

  • artraveler

    Ricardo, my brother has been out of work for 16 months and is out interviewing as much as he can find available openings but for the current position he is seeking, there were 80 applicants because corporate America, those who control Congress, have basically destroyed the American middle class by moving jobs overseas so they can feather their nest or get more feathers or build an even better nest. Most people want to work and rants like yours are an insult to at least 80% of those out of work. Your comments sound like they came from the Kyl notebook-blame the victim and never acknowledge that Corporate America, led by the Chamber of Congress, had caused and continue to cause the loss of jobs because they get more money for themselves. Why do the Republicans hate America so much that they continue to kick people who are already down because of policies they started!

  • ricardo4max

    It’s STILL a Pay go issue. And the evil lies in NEVER ENDING UNEMPLOYMENT Benefits because they create a Disincentive to find employment.
    Dems are treating the symptom instead of the disease, liberalism.

  • Paul-no not that one

    While your use of caps is persuasive unemployment benefits expire after 26 weeks. Although they can be extended during high unemployment.

  • trifecta55

    I think they are nihilists. They really don’t care. Not all of them are crazy like Coburn. They just don’t care that the world may warm in a couple generations. They don’t care that the middle class is getting reamed on health care.
    .
    They don’t give a flip. They will latch on to kooks and argue that they believe Obama is a Martian from Kenya who wants one world government, but not all of them believe it. They just don’t care.

  • kevin

    Also, the Dems wanted to pass something called pay go or pay for any new expenditures yet they continue to handout our tax dollars like they were candy, rewarding folks who aren’t working.
    .
    1) The Democrats DID pass PAYGO, and they did it without any Republican votes. Not even Jim Bunning voted for it.
    .
    2) The PAYGO measures that Democrats passed had a specific exemption for benefits spending like unemployment benefits.
    .
    Why don’t you NeoCommies on this board actually leave your trailers, basements and libraries and go out into the country and talk to REAL AMERICANS?
    Answer: It doesn’t fit with your distorted views of reality.

    .
    Speaking of distorted views of reality, let’s remember that ricardo here insisted that Obama was trying to “destroy capitalism” even though the Dow Jones average has gone up 63% in his first year in office and the economy went from -5.6% GDP growth in the fourth quarter of 2008 to +5.9% in the fourth quarter of 2009, the single best quarter for the American economy in six full years.
    .
    You know *nothing* about the economy, ricardo. Nothing.

  • kevin

    “behaviour”?
    .
    Are we getting lectured by a Canadian or an Englishman?
    .
    Either way, it’s hysterical to get lectured about how we’re immature from someone who uses the term “NeoCommies” without bursting into laughter.

  • sechandler912

    I am so grateful for Bunning. Thank GOODNESS for someone standing up for sanity in public policy. I have prayed for someone who will wake these people up to their runaway spending. Even for “good causes.” Esp. for good causes.

  • kevin

    Come on, Polderboy, you can’t beat down anecdotes with cold, hard facts.

  • sechandler912

    polderboy – seriously, I don’t get what planet you live on. I KNOW people who aren’t working – I heard a woman on the radio the other day say as much. It is not that they are losers, but it is EASY to become complacent ESPECIALLY when you feel like you’re doing all you can. 100 years ago, when social programs WEREN’T an option, guess what people did? They HAD to either lay down and die, ask family for help, go to God (which by the way works FAMOUSLY – not magically, but miraculously by giving one ideas, courage, strength, innovative ideas, a helping hand from a neighbor, etc), or just suffer and work it through. They sold things, lost everything and started again. Moved to a new place, etc. Really. THey did that. There was no blog to whine on. They did what they had to do. And either folded or became stronger for the experience. Again, risk. Again, pain, again, loss. Again, POTENTIAL GREATNESS. Freedom has risks. It has a price. I believe it’s still worth it.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “Are we getting lectured by a Canadian or an Englishman?”
    .

    I have to say “Ricardo” sounds pretty furrin to me. Show us your birth certificate “Ricardo”!

  • shakrai

    2.3:
    .
    “there were 80 applicants because corporate America, those who control Congress, have basically destroyed the American middle class by moving jobs overseas”
    .
    You know it was a Democratic President that pushed for NAFTA right? You know the current President has cut deals with big business (the pharma deal) when it suits him, right?
    .
    If you are voting for Democrats thinking they care about the American middle class then you are in for a rude awakening.

  • kevin

    Dennis Sewell? Seriously? He’s not an economist, he’s the right-wing nut who runs the Spectator in the UK. (At least we now know you’re an Englishman.)
    .
    And the “recession” is the result of the housing bubble and burst caused initially by the CRA and the Democrats and their henchmen (ACORN) bullying banks into lending mortgage money to their perceived voter base, those that can’t or won’t pay it back.
    .
    According to a Federal Reserve analysis, CRA-backed loans accounted for less than six percent of the risky, high-cost loans responsible for the housing crisis.
    .
    http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/speech/duke20090216a.htm
    .
    The head of FDIC and the Comptroller of the Currency both provided similar takes on the unimportance of CRA in the housing market meltdown.
    .

    “I want to give you my verdict on CRA: NOT guilty,” said FDIC Chairman Sheila Bair, according to a press release by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation. Before the Consumer Federation of America, Bair said Thursday she wanted to clear up the “myth” that the Community Reinvestment Act caused the financial crisis — and she set out to do so with vigor.
    .
    The Community Reinvestment Act — or CRA — is a federal law designed to encourage commercial banks and savings associations to meet the needs of borrowers in all segments of their communities, including low- and moderate-income neighborhoods. It has largely been criticized by conservative members of the GOP as promoting predatory lending practices.
    .
    … “Where in the CRA does it say to make loans to people who can’t afford to repay? Nowhere.” The facts are simple, Bair said. The lending practices that are causing problems today were driven by a desire for more market share and revenue growth, not because the government encouraged certain lending practices.
    .

    .
    Bair isn’t alone in her defense for CRA. Just two weeks ago, Comptroller of the Currency John Dugan said in a speech at the Enterprise Annual Network Conference that “CRA is not the culprit behind the subprime mortgage lending abuses, or the broader credit quality issues in the market place.”

    .
    http://www.housingwire.com/2008/12/05/fdics-bair-sets-to-shatter-cra-myth/
    .
    The only people who believe the lie that CRA caused the housing meltdown are know-nothing conservatives.

  • kevin

    The awesome power of ricardo’s CAPS LOCK also doesn’t change the fact that the PAYGO law specifically exempts unemployment benefits.
    .

    SEC. 11. EXEMPT PROGRAMS AND ACTIVITIES.


    .
    ‘(g) Other Programs and Activities-
    .
    ‘(1)(A) The following budget accounts and activities shall be exempt from reduction under any order issued under this part: ….
    .
    ‘Advances to the Unemployment Trust Fund and Other Funds (16-0327-0-1-600).

    .
    http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h2920/text

  • shakrai

    @ 6.24:
    .
    “Then you must certainly agree with libertarians (tea-party is a libertarian movement, not Republican) that the military budget is wasteful and needs to be dramatically slashed in order for more efficient governance.”
    .
    As a matter of fact I do agree with that. There’s no reason why we need a large standing military. The Founding Fathers were rightfully leery of one. More recently, Eisenhower warned about us about the military-industrial complex. Have we listened? Nope.
    .
    If I was dictator for a day, I would slash the standing army down to a small professional force responsible for training the militia and manning the handful of advanced weapons systems (air defense, artillery, etc.) required on the modern battlefield that recruits can’t be trained as quickly as rifle shooting. I would slash the Air Force and Navy down to the size required to defend CONUS. I would withdraw from all of our entangling alliances and put the rest of the world on notice that they need to pay for their own national defense from this point forward.
    .
    The United States has nuclear weapons and enough firearms to arm every single adult citizen. There is no reason why we need to spend so much money on the military. Switzerland has used the militia model to defend her borders with great success for the last few centuries. She has done so without the benefit of two oceans and nuclear weapons.

  • kevin

    Your tax money? You spell the word as “behaviour” and know Dennis Sewell appears on the BBC (when it’s not mentioned in the article you link).
    .
    I sincerely doubt any of your British tax money is tied up in American policy, wanker.

  • kevin

    He’s definitely English. See below.

  • shakrai

    @6.23: “First you start off in the thread with some obvious trollery”
    .
    What “trollery”? I accused Mr. Klein of painting with a broad brush. I haven’t seen any evidence to refute this assumption. He claims to know the motivations of the “tea partiers”. He accuses (with no evidence, interviews or facts to back him up) the entire movement of desiring the elimination of Medicare, Social Security, road building, etc. You only think it’s “trollery” because I had the audacity to challenge all your assumptions.
    .
    “Then you mention the process of gerrymandering and when I or anyone else mentions the blueprint for it (and quite possibly the most egregious modern day example) in Texas under Delay’s direction, you cry again. What exactly is your problem?”
    .
    My problem is partisan people like yourself that insist on redirecting any conversation about the ills of our political system to the evils of the other party. Your posts are a mirror image of Redstate, just replace “GOP” with “Democrat” and “Texas” with “New York”. You hate the GOP so much that you can’t see the forest for the trees.
    .
    “To you, apparently, they are all righteously indignant citizens with nary an idiot among them.”
    .
    There’s that broad brush again. I’ve said nothing of the sort. All I said was that I understand the frustrations that are driving the Tea Party movement. Feel free to put some more words in my mouth when (if?) you reply to this message though.

  • freeinpa

    According to The Hill:

    “Democratic leaders said extensions of unemployment insurance and COBRA healthcare benefits should be emergency spending that isn’t subject to the pay-as-you-go statute, which requires new non-discretionary spending to be offset with spending cuts or tax increases.”
    ==
    Should be does not seem to be the equivalent Absolutely is. I don’t with more lawyers per sq ft than the entire world, if the legal argument held, the whining leadership of the left would have made it.
    ==
    The left loons still in full froth.

  • diecash1

    No, your obvious trollery was at 3.1 when you said this:
    ..
    “I agree. It’s amazing that the Democrats keep pushing the health care bill when every single poll shows that a large majority of Americans are opposed to it.”
    ..
    This was entirely OT to the discussion and my comments entirely and that is, by definition, trolling.
    ..
    You mention gerrymandering and I (among others) mention that I know what it is and I provide the most egregious example in recent history and you start to prattle and whine. I don’t subscribe to the “pox on both houses” meme. It’s BS. Democrats have problems but the Republicans are infested with vermin. They have taken such a hard right turn in the previous 15-20 years that they would no longer recognize a true Republican if they met one.
    ..
    Again, you are so disingenuous that you cannot admit there are large swaths of astroturf in the Tea party movement and many of the tea partiers are woefully uninformed.
    ..
    Lastly, I am partisan but that does not stop me from criticizing the President or the Democrats. I don’t live by the Republican mantra, “My party, right or wrong.” Nice bit of projection there though. You apparently should get along swimmingly with the Joe Kleins of the world that love to find false equivalences whenever possible.

  • kevin

    Should be does not seem to be the equivalent Absolutely is.
    .
    Hey, you know what “absolutely is”? The plain letter of the law which I conveniently posted for you above.
    .
    Read it again. Section 11, (g)(1)(a) of the PAYGO law explicitly exempts unemployment benefits from the legislation. It is in clear, plain English. There is no “should be” about it, it truly “is.”
    .
    As for “loony froth,” well, I’m the one citing verbatim the actual legislation as passed. You’re the one pretending it doesn’t exist.

  • jsfox

    shakrai – Yes a Democratic President signed the bill, but a Republican President created it and negotiated it, George H. Bush NAFTA as a treaty was done by the time Clinton came into office. So while I disagree with Clinton finishing the job it was a Republican policy and treaty.

  • freeinpa

    So what you are saying the Demos won’t enforce the law? THat would seem to be easy enough. Or as usual is it political grandstanding by the batty and clueless left.

    Since YOU have determined what absolutely is (Another legend in your own mind). It says advances to the Unemployment Trust Fund as written. Ok When written the law applying to that Fund was for X weeks. Now it is X + Y or NEW SPENDING not an advance.
    ==
    It may be perfectly clear to you but no one is making the argument so dare I say, swing and miss again.

  • donshabkie

    I work about 70 hours a week, and in the past raised 2 college-graduated children on a shoestring salary. Never once did I ask for or get government help.

    I also know that there are people much worse off than I ever have been, and I don’t have a problem with my tax money going in part to help create jobs and to help get folks out of a downward spiral. And I like seeing the fact that my local taxes support schools, libraries and other integral components of civilization.

    In addition, I have run into numerous tea-party people who hate our president, and insist on calling me a socialist or a communist. And it’s funny–after talking to them I find in many cases that they are accepting Medicaid for their children, or they confess that the hospital forgave their huge debt (a debt I and others now pay for through higher insurance premiums).

    And you know I’m glad to know that in some way I’m able to help these most conservative folks in their times of need, I just wish they would stop calling me names. There are a lot of us—conservatives and liberals who want nothing more than a job and the freedom to make decisions for ourselves. But we also need to remember that life isn’t that simple for everyone, and the solutions to complex problems are always outside the scope of any narrow ideological box.

  • freeinpa

    Back to the race baiting. You never disappoint. Tell me are the Demos in NYC racist? First they gun to remove a black, blind governor (Do you get extra points for multiple victim groups) and now Harold Ford.

    I can’t wait to read how the extreme left wing democrats are forcing out all the moderates in their party and the analysis of how they can win an election with just the extremists?

  • kevin

    So what you are saying the Demos won’t enforce the law?
    .
    No. I am saying that the law specifically does not apply to unemployment benefits.
    .
    Complaining that unemployment benefits violate a PAYGO law that specifically exempts unemployment benefits is ridiculous.
    .
    You once again don’t understand how things work. Advances to the unemployment trust fund come at Congress’s discretion, at any time. Go read the US Code — Title 42, Chapter VII, Subchapter XII, §1323.

  • shakrai

    “This was entirely OT to the discussion and my comments entirely and that is, by definition, trolling.”
    .
    So your idea of “trolling in the thread” is to bring up a sarcastic comment from a different thread? Interesting. BTW, I don’t think that was trolling. You accuse someone of being tone deaf while ignoring the fact that most Americans hate the health care legislation, hate the process that produced it and desire that Congress start over from square one. You are the tone deaf one.
    .
    “Democrats have problems but the Republicans are infested with vermin. They have taken such a hard right turn in the previous 15-20 years that they would no longer recognize a true Republican if they met one.”
    .
    And the Democrats have done the same thing with a hard left turn. Your health care bill is so far to the left that you had to bribe the blue dog Democrats to go along with it. You had the votes to pass it all along if you had moderated it a little bit. Your cap and trade bill is so far to the left that it’s dead on arrival in the US Senate. Your “stimulus” bill was loaded with hundreds of billions worth of pork that had nothing at all to do with economic stimulus. As usual you reserve your criticism for the GOP while ignoring the fact that your own party is just as guilty.
    .
    “Again, you are so disingenuous that you cannot admit there are large swaths of astroturf in the Tea party movement and many of the tea partiers are woefully uninformed.”
    .
    I honestly don’t know enough about the Tea Party to know whether or not it’s been “astroturfed”. As I’ve stated numerous times I am not involved in the Tea Party movement nor am I a member of the GOP. I just find it amazingly hypocritical that the Democrats went from “dissent is patriotic” to whining about “astroturfing” when confronted with dissent. I find it amazingly hypocritical that they preached the value of the filibuster and now complain about it.
    .
    You do realize that November 2008 wasn’t a mandate for Nancy Pelosi, right? It was the final rejection of Bush’ism and the neo-cons. Barack Obama would still be a Senator if John McCain had beaten Bush in 2000 or if Bush had lived up to his promises of a humble foreign policy and compassionate conservatism.

  • freeinpa

    And you suffer from an incurable delusion that the rags you mention are anything but tools of the left. Imagine where we would be today if they did their job with Kennedy, Clinton (take you pick on which one) Obama, Frank, Rangel, Geithner and th elist goes on.
    ==

    If 10% of the ink was spent on the left wing nuts jobs more than half the Demo clowns would have a job asking :do you want fries with that?”

  • kevin

    It also seems you don’t understand “advance” here either.
    .
    This isn’t an “advance” like you’d have on your paycheck, it’s an “advance” of transferring federal funds to the states for their dispersal of unemployment benefits.
    .
    Anyway, I’m not sure why I bother explaining this to you. You clearly don’t care to learn, or you clearly can’t learn.
    .
    All you want to do here is to find a way to say that those dirty “Demos” are to blame for everything and how liberals are “all gonna regret it when November comes!!!!!”
    .
    You’re not interested in having a discussion. You’re just full of spite and spittle. Sad.

  • kevin

    Back to the race baiting. You never disappoint.
    .
    You know, freeinpa, when you refer to someone here as a “raghead” as you did last week, you forever lose the right to accuse anyone else of race-baiting.
    .
    And you, well, you always disappoint.

  • stuartzechman

    Your health care bill is so far to the left that you had to bribe the blue dog Democrats to go along with it. You had the votes to pass it all along if you had moderated it a little bit.

    Rather than characterize this statement, I’ll just ask:
    .
    How so?
    .
    How is the Senate bill “so far to the left”?
    .
    This bill epitomizes Third Way politics and policy.
    .
    I am a liberal, and I can tell you that this bill is nothing like what would be produced by liberal policy-making. Many, many of us are deeply concerned that this legislation is at best inadequate, at worst destructive.
    .
    Have you read it?
    .
    What specifically about it is “so far to the left”?

  • http://polderjongen.wordpress.com/ Polderboy

    solidarity takes people and country forward, not naked greed and selfishness. And your romanticizing of the human condition in the 19th C is appalling.

    People often argue socialism or even social democracy leads to communism. It’s false. Unchecked and unbridled capitalism which has morphed into a plutocracy leads to communist-style revolts.

  • 3xfire3

    Stuart,
    I often agree with your comments but in this particular case I do not. The ganging up by so many liberals against shakrai was totally uncalled for. If they as a group are going to act like intellectual midgets, I see nothing wrong with saying it as it is.

  • diecash1

    “So your idea of “trolling in the thread” is to bring up a sarcastic comment from a different thread?”
    ..
    Are you reading challenged? I ask in all seriousness because you obviously are having trouble. You made your comments in this thread at 3.1. Now do you see?
    ..
    How exactly have the Democrats “turned hard left”? Please expound upon this conjecture for me.
    ..
    As for the health care bill, it is by no means by, for or of the left. Were it, it would have been a single-payer bill, not a 1993 Republican bill. Check this out:
    ..
    http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Graphics/2010/022310-Bill-comparison.aspx
    ..
    After reading it, tell me again how it is a leftist bill? Also interesting is the tremendous rightward shift of the Republicans on HCR over the intervening years.
    ..
    As for the rightward march of Republicans, why don’t you read the 1956 Republican Party platform?
    ..
    http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/2/16/837390/-Quick:-Who-Wrote-THIS
    ..
    “I just find it amazingly hypocritical that the Democrats went from “dissent is patriotic” to whining about “astroturfing” when confronted with dissent. I find it amazingly hypocritical that they preached the value of the filibuster and now complain about it.”
    ..
    Who’s painting with a broad brush now? Feeling a wee bit hypocritical?

  • freeinpa

    you refer to someone here as a “raghead” as you did last week,
    +

    Please provide me with the link to this

  • grape_crush

    Absolutely. Good comment.

  • 3xfire3

    Stuart,
    Have you not noticed that every time someone new and intelligent, who is not a liberal, makes a post here, there is a group of liberal swampers that go after them with a vengeance? They continue till that person, who could have made an excellent contribution to this site, decides it’s not worth their time to continue to post here.
    Would it not be better if we had people with different point of views commenting here? We might all learn more and realize we individually do not have all the answers.

  • freeinpa

    You are interested not in a discussion but imposing your know-it-all arrogant opinions. There is never any room for doubt especially if it comes form a conservative.
    ==

    I find it amazing that every “lecture” (you share a lot with the Messiah) always makes claim that any other view is ridiculous. And yet no one in Congress is making the arguments you are. Hmm I wonder who might be ridiculous?

  • freeinpa

    Not only arrogant but now your are Carnac. I am frantically trying to find where in the tax code where if foreign national works here he does not pay any tax on income earned here.

    Maybe in your infinite wisdom you could help us less fortunate than you.

  • freeinpa

    Wow. News reporting from the Daily Show. Maybe you can find cures for terminal illnesses on Sesame Street

  • freeinpa

    HC Preview

    The US Postal Service. After years of operating with lousy service, bloated budgets and huge deficits, the USPS will now try to eliminate Saturday delivery.

    The only difference is that the USPS won’t bankrupt the country HC Reform as the left wants it will.

  • billiecat

    Joe – this is pretty good as comment numbers go, but to really rack it up you have to link to Drudge again. Of course, signal to noise is a problem, as none of those dittoheads has the slightest idea what they’re talking about, but if traffic is your object, that’s the ticket.

  • 3xfire3

    3xfire3’s comments
    “sacredh,
    Since you are incapable of a simple rational logical discussion, I guess trying to talk rationally to you is not possible. You appear to be emotionally driven rather then logic driven. Just curious. Are you a woman? Discussing things with you is a lot like dicussing things with my wife”
    Apr’s comments
    “I guess it is appropriate that 3x felt comfortable being a sexist pig in his 12.6 comment since the thread started with brucemajor calling Nancy Pelosi an “old botoxed whore”.
    By the way, sexist pig is an old feminist term but seems just right for the classless and cluesless posters bruce and 3x”.
    . As usual you jump to all kinds of assumptions. Perhaps you didn’t realize that God made men and women different so that when the two become one those differences add to the relationship not take away from it.
    You sure like to call people names and demonize others. Why are you so ready to spread hate?
    You accuse me of being unable to accept the opinions of others. You are totally wrong. I have no problem with people having different opinions than I do. I consider that is their right. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with their position. Because we have a different view doesn’t make either of us a bad person. It simply means we have different beliefs and that’s OK. In the USA that is a privilege we are allowed.
    Regardless of what the feminist movement has told you, there are differences between men and women. One of those differences is that most men tend to be logic driven. Most [not all] women tend to be emotional driven. When these two strengths are added together it makes for better total relationships.
    Apr, Am I not entitled to my own opinion even when it is not the same as yours?

  • pintortwo

    Thanks for responding shakrai (6.28).
    .
    In hindsight I realized my unnecessary snark @ 6.24– it was late… You gave no reason to believe that you would disagree. I’m glad, however, to be able to inject that point, cheers.
    .
    Perhaps I’m a bit sensitive to the “small government” theme as popularly framed; I think it’s misguided. Of course we want our government to be streamlined and efficient– there is fat to be trimmed, no doubt. And unions can be, at times, too influential, especially on the local level (former NYC business owner, I know). But unions are not the “enemy”. Moreover, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment insurance, foodstamps are good programs– they can and should be tweaked when appropriate, but not eliminated or privatized. Furthermore, many earmarks such as research grants and construction projects provide jobs, benefit local communities and are relatively inexpensive. Unfortunately, this seems to be the focus of “small government” ire. I think it’s a purposeful deception by media and political elites.
    .
    IMO, any “small government” push needs to start with and focus on the military. Its budget is shamefully bloated– that’s where we can find needed savings.

  • kevin
  • stuartzechman

    That’s very decent of you to apologize, kevin, thank you.

  • kevin

    Are you kidding?
    .
    The whole reason I’m here, rather than some liberals-only blog, is that I’m looking for actual conservatives and libertarians to debate real issues. There are a few here — Exiled at Home, shakrai, apollo07 — that make it worth the effort.
    .
    I’m not imposing my “know-it-all arrogant opinions,” I’m pointing out the cold, hard facts. In this case, there is the clear letter of the law, and there is no doubt about what that says.
    .
    It is undeniable. It is not my opinion, any more than the speed limit or the IRS are my opinions. The fact that you think it is says volumes about you and the incredible distance between your fantasyland worldview and what the rest of us know as reality.
    .
    If you would like to offer facts and reason and actual substantial arguments, please, by all means, do so. But you never do. All you do is make bizarre claims that have no basis in truth and, worse, all you seem to be interested in is making liberals rue the day. That just is sad beyond belief. I get the feeling you’d set your own house on fire if you thought it might make a liberal upset.

  • fantumx

    America is Coming for You, Congress!
    http://usataxpayer.org/?0036174522

  • allthingsinaname

    “One of those differences is that most men tend to be logic driven. Most [not all] women tend to be emotional driven. When these two strengths are added together it makes for better total relationships.”

    >
    Pure hogwash! You imply that your logic is superior, this comment shows that you don’t use it.
    .

  • sechandler912

    Polderboy – do you know what codependency is? What I will tell you I love thinking back in time is that people owned their own lives, bad or good. Of course there were problems–when humans are involved there always will be. But honestly, I’d rather have MY problems, than trying to undo other people’s problems TOO much. There’s a balance in it all. I help people ALOT, as I’m sure you do. You’re probably out there, donating a lot to the poor, mentoring children, etc. But surely you have learned in those efforts that one cannot take on responsibility for others’ lives MORE than they are. Where’s the line? Well, that’s what we’re arguing about. Conservatives aren’t as a lot usually greedy and selfish. There’s just a truth about how much you can help someone. I give a lot to the poor, I spend 20+ hours helping people struggling to change their lives. I do walk the walk. But I strongly disagree with helping more than we have resources to. It’s unsustainable what we’re doing. WE ARE OUT OF MONEY. The deficit is the symptom that what we’re doing is NOT WORKING. It wasn’t caused by the wars — they didn’t help of course. But check out the percentage that entitlements are in the Fed budget. They’re projected to grow and grow and grow as a percentage of the budget, along with our debt interest. Read the tea leaves, please. That’s what codependents (I’ve been one, I know) eventually figure out. Trying to help has become toxic to themselves and doesn’t really help the other person. It’s THEIR problem to fix. Make them a meal, pray for them, hug them, temporary financial help–and then trust them to carry their own burdens…

  • kevin

    We never said it was reporting. It’s partisan commentary with comedic emphasis.
    .
    You know, like Faux News.

  • allthingsinaname

    I just want to add one more comment. All these posts about Blog whores and trolls are absurd. Just look at who is posting such crap. Same half dozen or so posters have taken over the thread with the same mindless arguments about nothing.

  • stuartzechman

    3xfire3

    Regardless of what the feminist movement has told you, there are differences between men and women.

    As far as I’m aware, the feminist movement has proclaimed no such thing.
    .
    Can you please link to an actual, current movement feminist, like Amanda Marcotte or Jessica Valenti, declaring such a thing?
    .
    From what I can understand, movement feminism simply won’t tolerate differences in the way that the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution applies to the genders –because it’s the “Equal Protection Clause.”
    .
    According to feminists, acknowledged differences between men and women, such as the cultural tendency that still encourages men to assume individual problem-solving (“logic driven”) roles, and women to assume social problem-solving (“emotional driven”) roles, don’t mean that hierarchies are justified (“men must be in charge, since they can think straight, whereas women are confused and emotional”).
    .
    Feminists simply don’t believe that these tendencies should be enforced on women, nor that they represent “natural” rationales for men to hold unequal power and access to opportunity.
    .
    I’m not sure you actually know what these people say or think.
    .
    Where do you get your ideas about the feminist movement, 3xfire3?

  • pintortwo

    you suffer from an incurable delusion that the rags you mention are anything but tools of the left.
    .
    You can’t be serious, free. Do you realize who opines at WaPo? And Time is hardly liberal– JK is about as far left as it goes and he’s a New Way Dem centrist, which means he’d be a Republican a few years back. Perhaps he’s overly fond of fellow NWD Obama. But you also have Mark Halperin’s The Page here, a poor man’s Drudge. Even the NYT: it has liberal in it, but remember that it was also Cheney’s favorite propaganda tool (see Judith Miller)– hardly indicative of “tools of the left”.
    .
    I’ll talk to you and consider you’re opinion, but come on… as an institution, the media is very much biased to the right.

  • afguy

    sechandler,
    .
    Tell me you didn’t mention Bunning and “sanity” in the same sentence with a favorable comparison of the two…

  • http://forgottenlord.livejournal.com forgottenlord

    Unemployment insurance is not the same as welfare. While I think it is an interesting debate to have about the values of welfare, unemployment insurance is an entirely different beast. Unemployment insurance is a recognition of the fact that because you lost your job, you won’t be able to go to work tomorrow. It takes, on average, 8 months to find a new job after you’ve been laid off – and that was prior to the recession. During that time, you are not receiving a single paycheck. In that case, provided the job you just had was a steady job for several months, the government will support you for a limited time, providing you sufficient income to feed, cloth and house yourself while you search for that next job. It’s not a disincentive to work. Why? Because there is a point where you will no longer receive that money. This is a program that acknowledges that you need some money to get to the next paycheck. Why is that so wrong?
    .
    Even that isn’t the dumbest part of the argument. When filtered through the reality of a good economy, that is the problem with Senator Kyl’s argument, but in this time period with the problems of the recession, it is an incredibly stupid argument. Whether or not there are or are not incentives to get a job is irrelevant to whether a job exists. In this economy, there are jobs only for some 80% of workers. You can’t lose a job, turn around and find a new one. It’s a ridiculous thought. While I have respect for Senator Bunning’s move to force the Dems to fund unemployment insurance, I have no respect for those that fail to see the hardship of those who need it and presume that these people are just lazy because they haven’t got a job when there simply aren’t jobs out there.

  • stuartzechman

    So while I disagree with Clinton finishing the job it was a Republican policy and treaty.

    Since Republicans became more accountable to their populist base than the time of GWH Bush, NAFTA is not Republican policy, it’s Third Way Democratic policy that Republican elites (not movement conservatives) also tend to support.
    .
    Here’s the Democratic Leadership Council (centrist “New Democrats”) “Setting the Record Straight on NAFTA” in a piece from September 13, 1993: link to centrist Democrats’ clear support for “Free Trade” policies

    Critics of the pending North American Free Trade Agreement are distorting the pact’s likely economic effects. Most objective evaluations by non-partisan researchers and government agencies have concluded that the trade pact will help expand the U.S. economy by boosting exports and creating more high-wage, high-skill jobs. Here are some major points to consider when weighing the pros and cons of the NAFTA
    .
    NAFTA will create jobs
    .
    The “sucking sound” heard from Mexico will be from rising exports, not job losses
    .
    Yes, there will be losers as well as winners.
    .
    There is no question that more open trade with Mexico will produce both winners and losers, since the two economies have different strengths and, weaknesses. But the NAFTA will promote growth in high-wage jobs, since the U.S. has the advantage in sectors that require capital and skilled labor. Democrats should push to retrain any displaced workers for new high-wage, high-skill jobs.
    .
    Illegal immigration may be abated
    .
    NAFTA provides everything we need for a thriving trade bloc
    .
    Remember: The three countries working together can do more than each working separately. A more efficient distribution of productive capacity will make our products more competitive in world markets.

    These are the kind of lies that New Democrats are willing to push about their policies.
    .
    What’s even worse than the New Democrat liars, though, are the Tom Friedman-style ideologues among them who really believe this Third Way globalist crap, since thoroughly discredited by real events and situations.
    .
    NAFTA is the result of New Democrats compromising with moderately conservative Republican elites to effect terrible policy that happens to comport perfectly with centrist views on economics and politics.
    .
    As we will see now that the Republicans are completely out of power, if we elect more New Democrats, we’ll get more of their crackpot “globalization” theories, and more NAFTA-style policies –perhaps with the help of some of the GOP elite, granted, but not because “Free Trade” ideology is the sole provenance of Republicans.

  • stuartzechman

    And by D [Democrat] I mean C [Centrist] not L [Liberal] , OK?

  • http://polderjongen.wordpress.com/ Polderboy

    “What I will tell you I love thinking back in time is that people owned their own lives, bad or good.”

    People don’t ‘own their own lives’ when ‘life’ is being dimineshed to a struggle to survive and get through the day. You don’t own your own life in that case, life owns you.

    You seem to think that the vast majority of immigrants into the US in the 18th and 19th C for instance were people who were “taking their own life in their own hands”. Don’t you?

    Well here’s a surprise for you: these people were economic refugees who were fleeing extreme poverty in Europe.

  • http://www.pledge-drive.com bondwooley

    Bunning is the kind of person we should exile to Canada – so that the rest of us can stop threatening to move there:

    The Last Straw

    (satire)

  • freeinpa

    And I appreciate the apology as well. We may argue the points of racism but I have never stoop to those levels.

  • pintortwo

    Interview with former head of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission [CFTC], Brooksley Born (link):
    .
    I think (economic collapse) happened because there was no oversight of a very, very big, dynamic, growing market (over-the-counter derivative trading). Market participants don’t look out for the public interest. Traditionally, government has had to protect the public interest by overseeing the marketplace and keeping the extreme behavior under some check.
    .
    We had no regulation. No federal or state public official had any idea what was going on in those markets, so enormous leverage was permitted, enormous borrowing. There was also little or no capital being put up as collateral for the transactions. All the players in the marketplace were participants and counterparties to one another’s contracts. This market had gotten to be over $680 trillion in notional value as of June 2008 when it topped up… That’s more than 10 times the gross national product of all the countries in the world.
    (…)
    And also, we were seeing some very dangerous things happening in that market. There were some major fraud cases. There was use of over-the-counter derivatives to manipulate the price of commodities. And there were some spectacular failures by institutions that were speculating in the over-the-counter market with little or no restraint.

  • georgiac

    I heard this morning on a CNN broadcast that there were ways in which the Democrats could circumvent this one-man block but preferred not to because they appreciate the politics of Bunning’s obstructionism. I don’t know whether that was just the reporter’s “spin”–and yes, it was a news story, not an analysis piece–or whether the claim is factual, but if Dems have the ability to fund the measure and don’t, they’re as cynical as Bunning. I’m a life-long Democrat, but I’m just about worn out by this political posturing. Do these people have any idea how little we trust them? I

  • http://www.davesromanticpiano.com durangodave

    “This is what they are selling and, according to CNN, what 56% of the American people are currently buying”

    You know why they’re buying it? Because the newsmodels at CNN and the rest of the MSM (with a few notable exceptions) are acting as their public relations firm. When Republicans go on TV “news” shows and make outrageous claims (e.g., Rudy: “There were no domestic terrorist attacks under Bush”; Lamar: “Reconciliation has NEVER been used like this before”; Faux News: “The nuclear option, also known as ‘reconciliation’ “) they are never challenged, never corrected, and never face any consequences.

    Our country is suffering mightily from the catastrophic failure of journalism.

  • freeinpa

    Seems I struck a nerve with the Imperial Left.

    ==
    “I’m pointing out the cold, hard facts. In this case, there is the clear letter of the law, and there is no doubt about what that says.”

    Yet you seem to be the only one here or in Washington that is making this argument. What a burden is must be to you to be smarter than everybody
    ==
    “It is undeniable. It is not my opinion, any more than the speed limit or the IRS are my opinions.”

    Actually Sparky speed limits speed limits change which I guess is a liberal fact they change to suit their purpose. The IRS is also not a fact. It is a government agency and the “laws” as written are challenged over their interpretation daily. If they are just fact with clear black and white meanings we got a lot of tax lawyers that are hosing the American public.
    =
    You are right it is fun to wind up know it all liberals who consistently have a condescending attitude to anyone who differs with their “facts” when a conservative only serves up “bizarre claims”. So please keep enlightening me with your “facts”. I am always interested in how the demented mind works.

  • cigarcamel

    Forgottenlord –“It’s not a disincentive to work. Why? Because there is a point where you will no longer receive that money.”

    But what is being debated is insurance “extensions”, they were supposed to have been stopped but they haven’t been. Therefore an incentive not to work, though I agree the incentive is slim.

    Joel Kline has bad habit is mixing analogies, “no environmental or workplace regulations” is an entirely different political pill than “no Medicare or Medicaid or Social Security”, I don’t see any anarchy in the Tea Party.

  • cigarcamel

    Shakrai at 6.12 – Nicely stated, I too am frustrated and upset with Washington, neither party has integrity or honesty. I understand it is the height of reactionary dogma to state here that the U.S. Constitution would be a good place to start in fixing Washington, but I believe it.

  • apr2563

    Freeper: Stuart often takes on the Dems. On the show he made fun of Sheldon Whitehouse, one of my favorite Senators. I laughed. Freep you have to have a sense of humor and political knowledge to enjoy Colbert and The Daily Show.

  • apr2563

    3x when my gender is attacked I will defend it.
    Thank you Brother Stuart for your comments.

  • apr2563

    don: Well put. Thank you for your comment.

  • cigarcamel

    My sincere apology for the name misspelling Joe.

  • 3xfire3

    Stuart and Apr,
    “Feminists simply don’t believe that these tendencies should be enforced on women, nor that they represent “natural” rationales for men to hold unequal power and access to opportunity”.
    To My usually logical friend.
    I Totally Agree.
    As a father of a daughter and 7 granddaughters, I believe in total equality for both women and men.
    Both you and Apr has falsely assumed the intent of my words. My point was that men and women do have different strengths and weaknesses and that’s completely normal. The differences do not make one better than the other. There are probably more things women are better at then men. But there are still differences. I don’t buy into any hierarchical roles.
    In marriage these differences compliment each other. This is true in the workplace also.
    With that said, I do stick to my original point that most men [not all] tend to be logic driven sometimes to our own detriment. We tend to see everything as black and white. Most women [not all] tend to be emotionally driven. That allows them to understand empathy better than most men do.
    The differences between men and women are complimentary. They do not make one better than the other.
    There have been many good things that have come out of the groups that work for the betterment of women. There has also been some really crazy stuff that has come out of the feminist movement.

  • sechandler912

    Polderboy – that’s a despondent view of our personal power. May I recommend Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. After his Auschwitz experience, he would disagree with you, and I think I trust his opinion over yours, respectfully. He maintained that one always retains the ability to respond to what happens to us. And that is what keeps us free. I advocate for retaining as much freedom with the individual, even if they suffer, because that freedom is where creativity is born, character is built, strength is gained. The risk is that it might also lead to despair, frustration, suicide, etc. Again, freedom is risky. But great is the possibility. I’ll spend my time arguing less with people like yourselves who refuse to acknowledge Frankl and others’ experiences, and more time empowering people to see how powerful they can be without anyone to help them. Just finished 6 hours of it, and all I can tell you is that I NEVER have been thanked for helping someone get services, although at times they’ve learned that they need to ask for temporary help as part of personal empowerment. But many have said “thank you for helping me believe in myself, and my ability to fix my own life.” I recommend it heartily. I firmly believe attitudes and policies which mirror my micro-experience will work on a macro- level.

  • apr2563

    3x do you really believe God decided to give men and women different natures so they could cohabitate? Do you believe that God took a rib from Adam to create Eve? I am serious? If your idea for the differences between men and women is based on theology, I am afraid we will not come to any agreement.
    Evolution gave women a uterus and mammary glands that allowed us to procreate with the assistance of men.
    Those are certainly differences.
    As a feminist (a word, like liberal, demonized by the right), I applaud your encouraging the female members of your family to embrace their equality. It would be good if you didn’t stereotype them by suggesting they may be more emotional.
    Give them good examples of women who perform based on their reasoning and do not let emotion lead their actions:
    Thatcher, Clinton, Curie, Elizabeth I, Sally Ride, Mier, the list is endless.

    I

  • underdog74

    @ Ricardo: very interesting to read your “troll hypocrisy” indeed…

    @Freeinpa: even better, a UK expat- Ricardo, who has potentially taken a job away from an American *and* supports Bunning and Kyl in their distorted view of what’s right for the current state of America’s unemployed.

  • http://polderjongen.wordpress.com/ Polderboy

    Right. So if I understand you correctly, then having a social social safety net, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, environmental and workplace regulations is like or even worse than Auschwitz?

    I’m afraid you have a rather materialistic view of what freedom entails and think you’ve totally missed the point of Viktor Frankl’s book.

  • sechandler912

    Polderboy – really, I do understand your concerns, your desire for helping others, and picking up their pieces. Why can you not hear any of the truth that I am saying? Surely you can acknowledge some part of what I said as true? The sad thing about you, is that you twisted what I said,picked through the words, and spit it out as ugliness… Why? Why would you do this? I truly hope I never succomb to what you did. You do not love others, these programs you say you value are not because you care. You proved it when you spun my words so that you could feel intellectually superior to one of your sisters. I hope I never learn to be so sophisticated. It’s ugly. I see alot of the liberal banter here as prideful intellectualizing to use others as pawn–to talk OF THEIR NEEDS, but not to see them. I am telling you about what I see on the ground, in the battle. Your response is like one of an ignorant general, posturing and ordering to make his plans on the table LOOK good to the world, when it sacrifices his troops and the people he’s sworn to protect. Good luck with that.

  • http://polderjongen.wordpress.com/ Polderboy

    “True individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.”

    Franklin D. Roosevelt

    Every parent on earth is willing to give up everything, even their most sacred “freedoms”, when their children go through life without food security and shelter

  • sechandler912

    Well, lest you think I’m ill-informed, check out this page from the CBO about the wonderful program our dear president who you quote started for us, and who promised it would always pay for itself, and be 1% of our wages… Gee, he was such a nice guy (a man of the earth as well, wasn’t he? Grounded in personal experience of what works), meant well, helped a lot of people, and has now (with lots of help from both sides) helped to set us on a course of financial ruin… If only there existed a politician who would demand fiscal accountability… uh, oh, wait, Senator Bunning—oh, yeah, he’s crazy…

    http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/88xx/doc8877/Chapter3.6.1.shtml

    Also check out David Walker, and the Peter Peterson Foundation and their movie. He was appointed by Clinton, stayed over for Bush, and finally threw up his hands when NONE of the politicians frankly had the balls to face the tough decisions and so he’s campaigning not for office, but to wake up individual Americans as to our plight if we don’t stop the spending…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_M._Walker_(U.S._Comptroller_General)

  • 3xfire3

    Apr,
    Whether god or evolution or both had a role in making men and women different doesn’t matter. The fact is there are differences. It is a fact that some things men tend to be better at and some things women tend to be better at. Are you saying you believe there are no differences between men and women?
    I do not need your advice on how to help raise my beautiful granddaughters. There parents and their grandparents are doing quite well at that.

  • apr2563

    I stated there are biological differences between men and women. I just don’t like generalizations that compartmentlize people, in particular genders.
    But, this is a never ending difference between us.
    So, I will take my sillly little self out of the discussion. It is just too emotional for me. La, di, da, la, di, da.

  • stuartzechman

    3xfire3:
    .
    Your original point included something about “what the feminist movement has told” somebody, and I asked you where you got your information about the feminist movement, since I don’t know of any feminists who deny that men and women are different kinds of people.
    .
    How did you get that idea about feminists, 3xfire3?

  • stewartiii

    NewsBusters: TIME’s Joe Klein Gleeful Over Bunning Stand; Sees ‘Reactionary Radicalism’, Lack of ‘Common Decency’
    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2010/03/02/times-joe-klein-gleeful-over-bunning-stand-sees-reactionary-radicalism

  • sechandler912

    53_3

    And yes, we do. May teabaggers have stated that they are not afraid of violence if they feel the need to resort to it.
    .
    Only two degrees of separation separates Al-Queda, Timothy McVeigh, and the teabaggers.

    Tee hee – following that kind of spurious logic, I don’t know how you can object to Beck’s assertions that the progressives are only 1 or 2 degrees of separation from marxism, communism, etc. Just keeping it real. I’m sure you will have a snappy comeback that will be diminuitive, insulting, etc. so just save it. I really wish all this energy you bloggers put out would be put into helping fundraise for your neighbors’ various plights. Think of all this wasted psychic babbling energy being put to use helping the poor, feeding the hungry, etc. All these things your words say you care about… My tea party friends just got back from Haiti — at their own expense. They set up a foundation with their tea partying friends donated to, to help families get micro loans to help themselves… Why don’t you stop trading epithets, aspersions, intellectualisms, getting off your duffs and DO SOMETHING. I’ve got humanitarian projects galore that I can turn you onto–hygiene kits, baby blankets, leper bandages. Come on down to the church near you, and we’ll show you how to really help… We conservative libertarians often are those that do just that–put our money, hearts and time into our brethren, which may be exactly why we might have a little wisdom about what really works to help others… Ask Oprah how helping people and giving people all the money you have whenever they ask/need it works for her… She’s learned a few lessons along the way.

  • 3xfire3

    Stuart,
    There are many in the feminist movements who have been promoting for many years the idea that there is nothing a man can do that a woman can’t also do. You don’t need a link to know this.
    While I will agree that the vast majority of things men can do women can also do, I still believe that there are some things men usually can do that women can not and vise versa. For example men are usually better at carrying people out of burning buildings. Women are better at multitasking or detail work than most men.
    What I most disagree with are radical feminist who are anti-men and who think the world would be a better place if there were a lot fewer men in it. I realize there are over the top people in every movement.

  • http://polderjongen.wordpress.com/ Polderboy

    Social Security is by far the most popular Government program there is. Followed by Medicare and Medicaid. And compared with all the other policies put forward by Republicans, they have been the most succesfull too. Sure there are problems, but they can be fixed, especially Social Security. The tax cuts for the rich of the Republicans can’t be fixed, only repealed. We told you in the early 80s and in the early 00s that it would cause massive deficits and a huge national debt. But you and your teabaggers only listened to Cheney who claimed that Reagan “proved” that deficits didn’t matter.

    Social Security will still be able to pay out until roughly 2040. More than 100 years after it was started. And there is enough time to fix it, and the fixes are fairly easy.

    Social Security is responsible for lifting millions of families out of poverty and gave them a change to climb the social and economic ladder. Social Security is one of the main reasons why the 50s and the 60s became the most prosperous decades for ALL Americans, not just a happy few. You should read some socio-economic history books and learn for instance what a “poverty trap” is and how it kept millions and millions of families in poverty before Social Security, no matter how hard they tried and worked to lift themselves up.

    Compare that to the utter disasters of the tax cuts for the fat cats of Wall Street from Reagan (who TRIPLED the National Debt) and the tax cuts for the same fate cats from Bush II (who DOUBLED the National Debt). Meanwhile, their policies made absolutely sure that the average Joe basically earns the same amount of money as he did in the early 80s, corrected for inflation. Even though he is now forced to work much harder and longer.

    The policies of Reagan, Bush I and Bush II of “starving the beast” in their jihad against “entitlements” has caused a total destruction of the entire middle class.

  • apr2563

    3x: Viva La Difference.
    Of course, as I stated earlier, men and women are different physically. Maybe my feminine curse is that I said I would take my self out of this conversation and here I am again.
    What is a radical feminist? I consider myself radical in that I believe we need an ERA amendment. Women should be payed equally for equal jobs. That all jobs should be open for women, if qualified. Paid maternity leave. Choice. Women should be able to serve in battle (we do anyway, even though Newt Gingrich thinks it is unhygenic for women to be in foxholes).
    I have been married twice. I like men a lot. Yet, insecure men like Rush Limbaugh would consider me a feminazi.
    There are to be sure some women who are anti-men but I am sure no more than those men who negate the value of women. Probably much less.
    As far as women being able to do what men do, I grant you it is difficult for me to pee into a beer bottle. Although, I had a girl friend that could. Well, fiddle dee dee.

  • sechandler912

    Well, a few points, and then I’ll let go. You have no interest in truth, just your hard and fast beliefs. I really encourage you to study CLINTON’s Comptroller’s assessment of the debt and SS. He doesn’t agree with you, nor do I find any factual basis for “social security is an fairly easy fix.” Wow. Like I said, check the Fed budget breakdown. 20-65 years are going up 11% for revenues, while baby boomer numbers are DOUBLING for the same time period… Easy fix? Sounds pie in the sky to me.

    When does a “popular program” have anything to do with what we need? You seem to be confusing wants with needs… I teach Junior Achievement to 1st graders and they try to learn that. It seems that you see the world as a sociologist does–on a macro level. Like I said, I’m down on the ground, and I’m just saying, it’s like studying the stock market for trends as a predictor of future growth, behavior etc. SEEMS like you can do it, but doesn’t really work too well. It misses the critical piece — individual choice. Individual motivation. I respectfully disagree with what you purport because it denies the fundamentals of human behavior that I’ve learned in life, school, and working with others. Human greatness comes from inside. We’re not cattle to be manipulated by macro policy. We’re not as helpless as you seem to believe. Our destinies don’t depend so much on what policy is helping us, cuz poor us we’re just a huddled mass.

    We are human beings, not tea partiers, not liberals. We are divinely created by a loving being. Hard to believe? Sorry, I know it might be. But that divine potential is brought to fruition in the trenches, in the huddled mass, as, shoulder to shoulder, we help each other. Federal programs in the overall scheme of things will not rescue the heart of a man. The man, next to him, holding his hand, pulling together, will. If you believe that the Fed program is that hand, I can get that, I’m just saying that it really doesn’t work that way for most people.

    BTW, for the millionth time, the tea partiers are not Republicans. Check the stats. They’re Dems, Indies and Reps, and a whole lot of us libertarian converts.

  • 3xfire3

    Apr,
    If you practice long enough I’m sure you could also pee into a beer bottle. It’s just one of those things that men are better at then women.
    You really need to stop being so emotional.

  • bobthebunter

    President Obama gave the GOP a full year to build a consensus on health-care reforms, but they were intent
    on blocking any kind of meaningful change. Now with the process of reconciliation, the Democratic leadership in the House and Senate will need a simple majority to get through most of Obama’s plan.
    It looks to me that Obama has outsmarted them all and the GOP appears as a mean-spirited bunch of old geezers. The Democrats will give hope and a fighting chance for many poor Americans to lead healthy and productive lives and break the chain of poverty.

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