Military Suicides

Joe,
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In the “Thread from He*ll” let loose over the weekend, I took a number of the “business elites” who apeared to task for NOT having stepped up and served when they had the chance.
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One actually gave a quite Cheney-esque rationale for not serving right after 9/11 – he said it wasn’t his “bag” and he “had a business to run and family to feed”.
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Ladies and gentlemen, I give you your modern “patriotic” conservative – as long as it’s not too inconvenient.
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Somehow, I imagine a number of the others on their latest multiple tour also have a “family to feed”.

Should be:

…a threat to their right[s]…

Good post, Joe. I have a family member getting deployed to Iraq for base shutdowns; I’m hoping it goes more smoothly for him than his time in Afghanistan. Being under that kind of stress continuously isn’t good for a person.

“It should not be forgotten.”

Thank you, Mr. Klein.

“The struggle of man against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting.”

- Milan Kundera

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/02/08/a-naming-of-parts/

This is depressing. Our soldiers are the first to sacrifice for the bloviators for war brigade, Notice that those who call loudest for another war are safely ensconced in their well paying think tanks. And 5 Deferments Dick is their “leader”. These people always have more important things to do and family obligations. Our soldiers?

It gets more interesting as you interact with them.
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My feeling is that, deep down, the conservative military veterans and the “business” conservatives who couldn’t bother to serve really don’t trust or have a lot of use for each other.
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One of the vets actually tried to defend mr. “not my bag” for deciding to stay behind. When I asked who determined who HAD to serve, WHO got to make that determination (and what were the guidelines), he got really defensive. When it was pointed out that most of the “business elites” in the group probably wouldn’t cross the street to help him if he really needed it, and that he was just more or less just a “useful idiot” for their cause, I was told to perform a difficult act with myself.
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They are NOT really a cohesive group – far from it. But that convenient “11th Commandment” keeps the faultlines covered up for the most part.

A totally unfair characterization, afguy. Most of the troops I served with in Afghanistan labeled themselves as conservative. I can assure you, being there was NOT convenient for most of us, but we served and served proudly. On the other hand, liberal volunteers in our armed services seemed inordinately scarce. I have often wondered why.

The notion that soldiers commit suicide to avoid deployment or are depressed because they feel they are being overdeployed is absurd.

The United States of America has a volunteer military. These soldiers, sailors and airmen are not snatched from their loved ones in a national conscription. They are paid to do what they do and the overwhelming majority love their job.

If we want to talk suicide statistics, let’s examine the explosion of young people, even children taking their own lives. Is this because of horrible overcrowding and bullies in school? Perhaps it’s because so many parents do not take parenting seriously enough. Maybe it’s because so many children are on anti-depressants which scramble their brain chemistry.

This article is yet another attempt to draw attention to a hotbutton issue, instead of helping Americans to understand the complexities of missions and daily life that our incredible military handle with power and commitment.

The notion that soldiers commit suicide to avoid deployment or are depressed because they feel they are being overdeployed is absurd.
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Bullsh!t. Have enough respect for members of our armed forces to realize that they are human, not robots. They’re brave people who put on brave faces.

Not unfair, earljr,
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I wish you had ducked into that sludge-fest of a thread this weekend and listened to the “business owners” who found it inconvenient to serve. Once actually defended his decision saying he wouldn’t want to be in the military unless he could run the whole thing, right before he said that military service wasn’t “his bag”.
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As I said below, the business conservatives and the conservative military veterans are two different philosophies, walking in the same general directions. But I really don’t think you truly trust each other.
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Right now, your BS detector is set to “Liberal only” setting. If you EVER start pointing it in ALL directions, the din will be deafening.
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Face it, earljr. Some of the biggest con artists going are right in the conservative movement, standing right next to you and cheering loudly, as they oh-so-gently push you to the front of the “service” line so they can stay home and “run their business and feed their family” and feel good about their “patriotism”.

Afguy got a bulls eye on the chicken hawks.
His statement is not about soldiers.

When I was planning to enlist, all the recruiters talked about was tuition money (which I needed). So, many are going because our country has never debated fully funding (even through student loans fully funding) higher education.

Our soldiers are brave and some are both brave and conservative.
However, many conservatives like Bush and Cheney were chicken hawks.
Afguy has it right.

… there is no way that a democratic Iraq can be worth the losses that we, and the Iraqi people, have already sustained.

Mr. Klein: If the citizens of the United States were stripped of their personal freedoms — guaranteed by the Constitution — do you think the cost would be so high that it would not be worth the losses? Or does this line of reasoning only apply to the Iraqis? If so, why?

Post traumatic stress syndrome is an extremely well documented mental illness resulting from things such as warfare, extreme cases of child abuse or other exposure to extreme violence.
Before this illness was discovered, it was unknown why after very large wars (this one has relatively few soldiers) crime rates, domestic violence and suicide rates went through the roof when the soldiers returned home.
This isn’t a joke or cowardice.

Unlike chicken hawks, I know that I do not know what goes on in a person’s head after seeing too much action in war but am aware that there is successful treatment for the condition.

How many COMBAT tours did you serve over there, mlshearin?
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And yours is another attempt to rationalize away the effects of a prolonged war that too many in your movement found it inconvenient to participate in.

You know, it is possible to communicate in this world with properly crafted, civilized words. The slinging of offensive language is unnecessary.

I am the parent of a West Point Cadet. I am fully aware that our military personnel are human beings with emotions.

dunno, thomas.
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Why don’t we ask the dead Iraqis how many of them support the war we initiated (without a whole lot of secondary thought to the consequences)?
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Is it really democarcy we seek, thomas, or just the type of democracy that has an outcome, and with the leaders, WE like?

During the Viet Nam era I commanded a stateside unit with many soldiers just returned from the war. One recently returned was extremely depressed, manifested by constant sadness and occasional crying for no apparent reason. I sent him to the mental hygiene clinic, as the army called it at the time, and a psychiatrist later reported to me than the problem was not the war stress, but the peace stress. Human beings grow to be comfortable in whatever their environment is, good or bad. Any radical changes for some result in the kind of depression with which he was dealing. That soldier had been in the worst of conditions in Viet Nam, and the comfort of the stateside garrison unhinged him although he did not know why. When I first talked to him he had told me he didn’t know why he felt so sad, he just did.

Then I’m sure you realize what a bone-headed comment you made.
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Your child has a while before he/she has to deploy. I hope we find a way out of that insanity before he has to go – and DEFINITELY before you have to deal with the psychology of someone who is on their 6th or 7th deployment into that zone.

Suicide rates are slightly down, not skyrocketing.
http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html

Minimizing soldiers’ stress disorders by calling those issues ‘absurd notions’ is far, far more offensive than using a mild expletive.
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I understand that you are proud of your kid. I hope that when he or she returns home from active duty, the only support they’ll need is more your cheerleading.
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If we want to talk suicide statistics, let’s examine the explosion of young people, even children taking their own lives.
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Great idea, by-the-way. Just the wrong thread to do it in.

formerly,
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It’s because the bond that was forged over there at that time went beyond family in many cases.
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They had to leave their “family”.
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Incidentally, I got this from a good friend who lost his sense of humor for a good 10 years AFTER he returned. He was never quite the same either.

Convenient that that statistic is taken as proof that soldiers are overworked and depressed rather than safer with a decrease in enemy activity. Without knowing monthly suicide statistics I don’t think you can draw any conclusion, but yet here’s all the peabrains parroting crap about Bush and Cheney, who’ve been out of office almost a year and a half now.

Mlshearin,

I disagree somewhat that it is a volunteer military. My husband serves, and while he loves his job I have heard him mention that even if he did want to get out, there’s no chance he could find a job in this economy that would support our family.

I wonder if some who do want to leave find it hard to because of similar circumstances.

Thomas–

Our freedom is well worth fighting for and preserving. It should be the only reason why we do something so extreme as send our troops to war. The war in Iraq had nothing to do with our freedom; it has diminished our power and standing in the world. It has been an unnecessary loss of life.

If the Iraqis want democracy, fine. I cheer them on. But that’s their business, not ours. I mean, how do you feel about invading Zimbabwe? Or China? Or Saudi Arabia? They don’t have democracy there.

Thank you, eccentriffic, for your politely framed words. It must be hard for many military families. Sincere best of luck to you.
It seems hard for many of these other comment posters to say anything without being rude.
I’ll take my boneheadedness out of this incredibly ugly forum.

It’s important to understand if those who committed suicides have been on any SSRI, or anti-psychotic medications to offset PTSD, or depression. It is a well-known side effect of these meds to induce suicidal thinking, otherwise known as ‘black box warning’. And, while the meds can be extremely helpful, the person must be continuously monitored given the meds impact to impart this thinking. I would think that a military individual would not confess to such thinking, as it’s a sign of weakness. Even those not in military, find the symptoms distressing and often hide these thoughts from family members thinking ‘odd’, ‘strange’, or hope will go away.

The mind is interesting re these meds. Not sure anyone truly knows why the “S” word comes up, but when it does, it’s powerful and can’t be shut-off by cognitive thinking. It’s like having diabetes — no one wants high insulin – no one can ‘think’ it away — it occurs. Same with SSRI’s (prozac, zolopf, abilify, luvox, etc) — it happens in some, not in others. When someone can figure out how the brain works, we’ll all be smarter.

Until then, these pills are not like Tylenol – a quick stop-gap to put out the fire. There are implications. To this end, I wonder — of all suicides – what % of people were on such meds?

Great shakes guys

You all have good points but this is an article from a whacko playing politics, and that is the problem.

Unfortunately it is also a global problem. Politicians have taken over your daily lives from business, religion, sex, abortion, medicine, war and… etc. you name it. This guy gets paid for writing this drivel. The whole darn Senate as did other governments who sided with America at the time supported the war. They all, including Hillary, were looking over their shoulders for political correctness, and now that things have changed they are blaming someone else.

Get rid of the politicians and whackos like Joe Klein. Take control over your country at the ballot box, or … but it doesn’t help if we all start playing politics too.

Yes, we need further study. Repeated deployments into a war zone without your family could NOT possibly cause adverse emotional effects on our “superhuman” all-volunteer military.
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After all, read the fine print in the enlistment contract. They should have known we could do this to them.

So, in your estimation, it is ONLY conservatives that get labeled “chicken hawk” and then retreat to the sideline. Liberals are NEVER guilty of this malfeasance? I still wonder why there is such a major discrepancy in the number of conservative troops serving proudly on that line with only a few, self labeled liberals doing the same. You are a veteran, afguy, what is your take on this? It is also odd that the majority of these troops deploying time and time again, maintain their staunch conservatism….quite contrary to the negative image of conservatives painted by you and patrick. I can assure you, from first hand experience, these are highly capable, intelligent young men and women and they weigh both sides of the argument. After doing this they STILL overwhelmingly outnumber liberals! Hard for you to stomach, I know, but facts are facts.

lradin,

Good question. I am not sure if it applies, but I know that in order to apply for Officer Training School (AF), you cannot have been on any anti-depressants for at least 6 months and must have documentation of having ceasing the medication (if you took it) before you even begin your medical qualification exam.

In the civil war, we lost more than a million men fighting for the rights of four million African American slaves. If the freedom of 35 million Iraqi’s isn’t *worth it*, than you must believe that the civil war would even be less so. Retract that assertion right now mister! You need to come back to reality and understand how the world really works. Your thought line is absolutely parasitic. With people like you running things we would still have slavery in this country.

As a former active duty Infantry Soldier of 5 yrs(2 deployment of a total of 25 months) and now a member of the MN National Guard (extending just to make my 3rd yr long deployment) I find this post a bit offensive. People commit suicide in all facets of our and other societies. Individuals need to realize that they are joining the armed forces in a time of war. REGARDLESS of how you feel about former or current leaders. They will deploy, they will be told to do things they may not want to. This all comes with the duty of serving. Part of the problem is that they joined to pay off school debt, viewed it as a career choice or simple played to many video games and have the wrong idea of how things work. The armed forces defends American soil and ideals at the behest of the current leaders. One has to be prepared for that entails when they enlist.

Also for a small caveat. As I patrolled the streets of Samarra Iraq from 04 to 05. I had the chance to talk to many of the local people.(It is true that some did not want us there, it is also true some did.) And something I saw often was a people who had no way to defend themselves from tyrants or radicals who wanted to control the everyday way of life in that country. What I saw was my mother or younger brothers being told how to live their lives by people who have a very strict view of life. I know that many Iraqis and Americans have died, but in no way do I consider it a lost cause. They now have a decent military that can defend its citizens. A goverment that appears to be running on its own, not a fully democratic gov. But one that takes in the views of the people. Violence and the bombings in the country have dropped significantly. Progress in nation building is slow, but it has been positive. And life is funny in way you can not describe. The Iraqis in time will form a more stable gov that fits their needs once we leave. Not ours
A Sgt of 1/26 INF, 1/167INF, 2/135th INF

The slug for this article was “Why More Military Suicides?” Can we not stick to the topic?

Simply put our military establishment makes the effort in most instances to provide great training for all troops irregardless of service brance. During that process there is a “tear down-restructuring process” whereby the troop is taught to survive, work as a unit, and obey the UCMJ.

As a result of this training, s/he is posted to a duty station whereby most individuals conform to the system, do their jobs admirably, and return home to their families. Unfortunately sometimes the traumas encountered in a combat zone, the actual combat itself, the loss of loved ones, the threat of more attacks or not knowing when an IED is going to upend your world and change it forever, is for some, an overwhelming emotional burden that grows exponentially with each passing day. Combine that with multiple tours, sometimes in quick succession, the mental pain and anguish one experiences becomes so overwhelming that the individual experiencing the pain loses all reason because s/he becomes so focused on wanting the pain, the losses, and the stress to end.

As the end of one’s tour approaches, all s/he wants is to go home and find some respite from what s/he’s just experienced. I do not care how many tours one experiences, or how commonplace death becomes, over time, the losses take their toll.

Upon exiting a combat zone, or prior to return home, the military establishment hands a troop a piece of paper that asks: “Have you, or are you experiencing any of the following?” Our troops are educated enough to utilize deductive reasoning to realize that if they answer “yes” to these questions, their reintegration into family or American society will be further delayed due to the fact they’ll be sent somewhere for treatment, therefore they hastily check “no” to the questions on the form. Their thinking is, “Oh God, not another month/six weeks away from my family.”

The fact of the matter is that if they do not receive treatment, irregardless of military job title, reintegration is going to be difficut, if not impossible. Naturally the question become “Why?”

Simply put, good emotions have no place in the combat zone. Caring and loving another individual in one’s squad, platoon, company, is completely normal, but when those you love begin dying, or are have their appendages ripped from their bodies by an IED and are flown from our sight to never be seen again, they leave us constantly asking one or more of the following questions, “why him/her, why wasn’t it me, what more could I have done, why didn’t I do more?”

After so many traumatic events we unintentionaly begin to gut our emotional wiring so as to not feel any more pain. In essence the good emotions disappear, and are supplanted by the negative emotions of hate, rage, and anger. These powerful emotions allow us to suffer through deprivation that most people consider horrific, but to the combat troop it’s just another day at the office. Hate, rage and anger become mental, autonomic relflexes whereby they can accomplish more with less, and go long periods without food, water, sleep and other creature comforts.

When it is time for the troop to return home, s/he is sent to the rear, clears the area by filling out the requisite paperwork, packs his/her gear, and voila, they’re on their way back home…or are they?

What has transpired during this tour is that their good emotions have been taken offline, as they pack their emotional dufflebags to come home, the negative emotions of hate, rage, and anger are the last items stuffed into dufflebag, as a result, when arriving home, those are the first emotions that will be unpacked because they’re on the top of the pile.

Just as one goes camping and packs according to need, the troop has come to rely on hate, rage, and anger as essentials for keeping not only themselves alive but also those in their squad, platoon, or company. When a situation or event arises that the veteran takes umbridge too, which emotions do you think will be brought to bear against this perceived threat?

Events in the real world have no relation to those in a combat zone, but to the returning troop it is usually the small things that s/he will get most upset about, those small, innocuous details that most of us take for granted are tiny details that were missed by someone that resulted in someone’s death or injury, thus to the returning veteran they’re monumental.

As combat troops we learn to distance ourselves from others simply because those we cared about got injured, or killed. Prior to going into a hostile theatre of operations s/he may have been the most caring individual in the world, but through lessons learned in combat, when s/he comes home the veteran will distance him/herself from loved ones. This is not because they do not care of love us any more, it is because they don’t want that individual injured or killed, because they learned in combat that those they cared most about died, therefore that distancing is a self sacrifice to keep their loved ones out of harms way. Yes, to the non-veteran this may seem irrational, but to the returning vet, it is of primary importance.

Just as these troops that committed suicide felt there was no way around the traumas that were invading their lives in all aspects, so it was with others of us returning home from combat. At many points post-Vietnam I sat in the woods and tasted gun oil, felt the cold steel on my teeth, but drew back from the precipice. I honestly didn’t think I had a problem, it took someone else to point it out. In order to find that help, it took brutal self-honesty, and years of introspection to overcome those feelings of self destruction.

In summation it will take the government realizing that not only do they need training programs to instill unity and esprit de corps in our troops, they also need to make deprogramming a mandatory step in returning to society. Handing a troop a form that asks, “Have you, or are you experiencing any of these problems,” just won’t alleviate the emotional problems of the returning veteran.

Despite the costs of a program like this, the offsets will make it worthwhile. Will it stop all returning veterans from committing suicide? No, unfortunately some will still take their own lives~

RMStewart
“B” 3/187th Inf, 101 Abn Div
Apr. 69-Mar 70

I don’t know if it’s worthwhile replying to your remarks, but, forgetting that January of 2009 was less than eighteen months ago (unless you are using some special software to write to us from July 2010 in which case I would love to ask you about our future) how could you possibly keep Bush and Cheney out of discussions of Iraq more than you could write off Tojo, Hitler and Mussolini when discussing World War II?

Obviously we have not committed the atrocities of the Axis powers and I AM NOT MAKING THAT COMPARISON.

Iraq was not invading anybody in 2003 and Bush and Cheney wanted to attack that country.

Do you know how we could have gotten out of Iraq with a victory?

If not, then you have to say that Obama is there because we could not get out.
We got in due to Bush and Cheney and we are still there because of Bush and Cheney.

I am a senior NCO with 20 years in service. I personally feel that there are many factors which lead to the rise in suicides. Right now, I think one thing not taken into consideration is the economy. We tend to think that Soldiers are going to get paid so the bad economy isn’t such an issue. However, many Soldiers are still in because they are financially unable to get out. The problem comes that you have Soldiers deploying and working in a job that they don’t want to do any longer but can’t get out because they have a family to support. They push forward and do another deployment and another to support their family. One day, that is it. They can’t take it anymore. When the economy was better, Soldiers were able to seek out what made them happy. Now it is about survival.

BENZODIAZEPINES.
They started giving the military benzos during the Afgan/Iraq wars. Benzos were given a blackbox warning (the FDA’s strongest warnng) in 2009 because so many people were killing themselves while on or while going off of benzodiazepines. It’s not hard to figure out. Michael Jackson, Anna Nicole, Brittany Murphy, Heath Ledger, Casey Johnson…..all had benzos in their system when they died. The particular drug that is the fancy of the US ARMY seems to be Klonopin – very dangerous and very strong. Benzos kill in 2 ways; 1) they make a person very relaxed, so relaxed that they would do whatever they were told regardless of consequences (ie – go to war and kill people) They also cause drastic personality changes. When someone comes off of benzos and realizes what they were made to do, they often become suicidal and want to die. 2) Withdrawal from benzos is worse than heroin – it can kill via seziures and heart attacks and doctors do not yet know how to withdrawal patients from benzos. (numerous websites regarding this) Withdrawal, alone, can make someone want to die.

So sad……(I’ll be amazed if this gets posted, as most posts naming drugs are erased.)

earljr,
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If ALL conservatives were as courageous and patriotic as the ones who did volunteer to go, the recruiters would be awash in potential soldiers and we wouldn’t need attrocities such as “Stop Loss”, repeated deployments, and delays in separation.
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We have a number of kids here who are in the military and, from talking to them, a lot of that is because of simple economics – no jobs here (I know, I talked to them).
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As for why more “liberals” haven’t volunteered, earljr, a lot of us simply believe that we have no business over there. We are not going to sacrifice our own kids for something we have long believed was a Neocon-driven mistake. We are just beating a group of good sincere soldiers up against a brick wall REPEATEDLY so a group of old, tired, corrupt venal men don’t have to admit that they “screwed the pooch”.
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The sooner you look around you in your own movement, earljr, and notice the number of affluent young men of the RIGHT age, cheering on this war from behind their “professional volunteer force” rhetoric, the better the country will start to become.
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They don’t deserve the break you are affording them.

I’ll take my boneheadedness out of this incredibly ugly forum.
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Funny, considering that it was your dismissal of stress disorders as ‘absurd notions’ that turned things ugly. You won’t be missed.

Well Mr. Casey let me tell you why you got such a problem with suicides in the army now! We are not fighting a war against foregin enemies over here in Iraq but never the less we are fighting against our own people. The people who were suppose to be our comrades and our NCO’s and our Superior Officers. They have nothing better to do than pick on soldiers. Actually is a matter of fact we just had a soldier the other day blow her brains out because she could not handle the stress her own unit was putting her through. I can not believe this is how soldiers are treated who volunteer to give up their lives, families and freedom for this!!! Ill tell you the main problem….Promoting ones who do not deserve it…but ones who are sleeping with a higher ranking or best friends with a higher ranking or neighbors with a higher ranking. Thats what this Army is all about now. It has nothing to do with excellence anymore so you got people who could care less about their soldiers because they did not earn what they wear on their uniform as their so called rank. Something needs to change here because this is out of control over here. All people talk about is deployment girlfriends and deployment boyfriends and what happens in Iraq stays in Iraq. All kinds of infidelity going on and the loved ones at home taking care of everything have no clue. I am married and my husband is here and we cant even be together because our unit is so jelous but yet its ok for them to go sleep with the private they work with how pathetic. I cant wait til the day I am out of the military and I wont look back because this is for the birds! Hope I enlightened America on why our soldiers are committing suicide and hope to write a book when I get home from Iraq all about our army.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Joe’s point, ricardo1968, is that if the Iraqis (or any other nation) wants freedom, they should step up and take it, not have it be thrust on them. The Civil War was Americans stepping up against other Americans. Do you think that Great Britain should have come in and forced us to free the slaves? I submit that if they (or anyone else) tried, Americans would have united against them and slavery would have gone on much longer than it did.

I think we should support efforts for freedom in other countries, but that invading them militarily to force it on them is not a productive means. That way lies madness. Harsh, maybe, but that’s reality.

Mr. Stewart,

I hope you can bring your insightful ideas to the attention of congress, the VA or somebody else to enact a deprogramming.

Your example ie go to war kill people is a bit heavy. That’s saying they came into service with depression and it was overlooked during in processing (possible) or that they have already been to war before depression set in and are going back with out knowing whats gonna happen again. I don’t in anyway disagree with the fact these drugs are dangerous. Not all service members are combat connected. (combat arms and non combat arms) so not all soldiers go to kill.

Don’t think many understand how many enlisted work a second job to make ends meet.
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What you wrote is pretty much as I remember it. I’m AF, you see it from an Army perspective.
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BTW, better half’s uncle was in 160th during Desert Storm and afterward.
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Keep the faith.

And the military leadership needs to be prepared to help its members adjust and deal with these realities instead of just having a “you should have known better” attitude.

Doesn’t the over-deployment problem and other support/equipment problems that are driving down morale all come back to the “conservatives” refusal to fund the government and the wars they choose through tax increases?

Excellent point, Ike. Where was the outrage when these liberals (including John Kerry) voted FOR this war and ONLY changed their minds when it became politically expedient to do so. A very large percentage of American’s are getting fed up with this high drama on the part of politicians and will start making some significant changes, come November. This absurdly complicated health care bill, fraught with back room dealing, is an EXCELLENT example of incompetency on their part. We can do better than this and I think our sentiments will be reflected in the coming elections.

When you write your book, take into consideration that it is your current or past units. It is also the Leadership above and around you. I agree that many individuals are promoted with out valid reason and that there are many bad leaders and units out there. But I can say not all are like that. I LOVED being apart of my first unit and HATED my second. It is all about the people around you. And the kind of individuals they are as human beings.

mlshearin,

I understand what you are trying to say. As a veteran, I have been through this training, however, professional or not, no one, and I mean no one, knows how they will react and or handle combat. We prepare ourselves, as your child is now, however, if asked and answered honesty if they are truly;y ready for combat and the ramifications of war, he or she will tell you they simply don’t know.

No one knows until they experience it. People, military or not, are not wired the same nor act the same. I work with vets all the time, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and our present day wars, have a common thread. War is hell, and know one should be surprised with the suicide rates.

…incredibly ugly forum.
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No, THAT would be “Thread-zilla” from this weekend.
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Now, THAT was ugly…

This is an article on why Army suicides are up or about the attitude of Americans towards the wars?… Another example of news media’s spot on headlines that are meant to inform and not catch the eye…

Seeing that servicemen overwhelmingly come from one walk of life (conservative, white, rural, blue-collar males with less than average education and a lower than average SES background), what’s the possibility that the suicide rate among that population outside of the military is rising as a whole? (And yes, I understand there are those in the military who fit none of those descriptions, but you know what I’m getting at.) My guess is that there’s little difference, but I don’t know the statistics.

Just a few facts: volunteers aren’t taken in to any service branch without at least six months and more likely a full year of not seeking any kind of psychiatric care or taking any medication. It’s a screening process that probably works well, but the problem is one of soldiers who develop mental health issues (like PTSD) during or after serving.

Also, building up a history of pathologial behavior can easily lead you out of the service for a number of different discharge reasons, all of which makes navigating mental health treatment in service, especially while deployed, a minefield if, as others have noted, there’s no job waiting for you if you are discharged.

A lot of the problems we see arising only now with military suicides are the result of un-treated PTSD. With the medical system put into place mental health is a very weary area. Most of the healthcare system avaliable to active duty military members is a “watch and wait”. This doesn’t bode well for those suffering from PTSD and depression related to their service. I really believe its the underlying cause of the skyrocketing suicide rate.

Joe, and everyone in this thread who hasn’t done a tour,
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Soldiers aren’t killing themselves because of fear, and its frankly insulting for mlshearin to say they are. Guys are harming themselves because of the massive trauma and stress repeated deployments have on them. Everyone who comes back has PTSD to some degree or another. Repeated deployments with minimal time at home and the strain and damage caused to familial relationships don’t help either.
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It takes two hand for me to count the number of friends I’ve buried over the last six years from the wars. This isn’t uncommon. The military is a small world. Combat arms – especially the Infrantry – are even smaller.
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Every time someone’s name rolls across a screen, there are hundreds of troops who’ve served with that guy who are impacted.
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Active duty soldiers live together on base. They’re not just losing a co-worker, they’re losing roomates and neighbors. Their families are friends and hang out together. When one of your friends dies, you feel it for a long time, in a lot of ways. And so does your entire family. The loss doesn’t go away just because you come home. In some ways, it gets worse.
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The walking wounded you see everywhere, and the sheer number of close calls you and everyone else experience also tend to play into this.
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Just as an example, my senior year of college I lived with three other guys, all military. Ryan died in a car bombing in ’04. Will nearly got cut in half by a bouncing betty in ’03, but his armor saved him. Brendan is about to go on his third tour, this time to Africa. I’m about to be medical’d out due to long term health complications from my time in the military.
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That’s not an unusual story for soldiers. Then we come home and see everyone pretending like the war doesn’t exist. Or that putting a stupid yellow sticker on their car or sending a text message makes them part of the war effort.
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It’s really tough to be a soldier at war when your country isn’t. Especially when that war is in year nine.
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@earljr, I was a conservative, then I spent the run up to the invasion getting classified briefings that turned out to be total &#@^ once we got there. Watching the sheer, massive, unadulterated incompetence and stupidity of that event in person switched me over pretty quick.

It would seem very simple to look at medical records of those who committed suicide to determine if on any mind-medication. We all can argue various points that drove person to feel depressed (the economy, extended deployment, fact of being there and faced with unbelieveable issues, pointing fingers at administration, political beliefs, etc etc) And, I’m not talking “I feel depressed, but classic depression — something totally different than most think).

I read, some time back, the military using more SSRI’s and antipsychotics to help military deal with depression and PTSD. So, I get back to core issue – has anyone done analysis of SSRI/anti-psychotics and suicide incidence. Not saying if these meds played a role, to stop as if compare total universe of med taking against whole, can be extremely valuable.

If those who committed suicide index high against non-taking suicide universe, more supports should be put into place. It’s basic research analysis given impact of drugs and post care/follow-up of military with such meds. It’s not brain surgery, but can be enlightening. And, put new, better practices in place.

soldieriniraqrightnow is right. There is some stupid stuff going on over here. Nobody seems to know why we are still here yet they keep the endless shuffle of Army Officers rotating through. I could not believe how many MAJ, LTC, and senior enlisted I see coming here who have never been in combat. I am a reservist and been over here several times yet this is the first deployment for an E-9? Now that it is relatively safe here senior leaders are deploying to get their combat patches. All of the good leaders have rotated through and the bottom of the barrel types are here now. A soldier in my unit committed suicide because of the stress of the commander and nothing is said about it. Swept under the rug. The pressure from the Command group was unbearable. Soldiers are bored, away from home, and without a sense of what the purpose here is. Why are we here? So that the corrupt Iraqi politicians can secure their power before we pullout? So that the MPRI contractor can make 200K plus for shuffling paper? So that the Ugandan guard working for less than $800.00 dollars a month while the company who employs him gets a 400 million dollar contract? Tell me why….

Suicides in the military is not a new concern. My father, a WWII vet was one of the many who came back from the front. He had many issues getting back into society. He began drinking. He had many scars on his body from shrapnel. He lived in the VA hospitals not getting enough help. ThsVA doctors are not always the best unfortunately. He sank further and further into the abyss and took his life. My dad, like many, are never diagnosed with Post Traumatic Syndrome. They are a part of a system that feeds the greed of many at their expense. The big military machine industry wins the war at others’ expense and lives. So you see, suicides are not new to the military. We are only beginning to ADMIT that there is a problem and now have to address the situation. Let’s be honest there are no winners in War; and being a son of a father who committed suicide never gives you answers, only more questions.

Actually, the military is BETTER educated than the rest of the population. But uh, thanks for dissing everyone in uniform to support your own stereotypes. And for insinuating that “the type of people” or “those people”, y’know, the ones who join, are more likely to be suicidal. Srsly, thnx.

earljr,
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I flipped on the conservative/liberal thing over to evil hippie land precisely because of what I saw when I was in Iraq during the invasion. You just can’t trust people who are that eager to go to war but don’t actually bother to plan for any of it.

Thank you for serving. I know that 99.9% of the population has no clue what it feels like to be in a combat zone and I am included in that. it must feel incredibly strange to try to assimilate back into a society where celebrity sightings seem to make the news more than our fallen soldiers. I can only imagine how your experience must put life into perspective.

This is where we have a MAJOR difference, afguy. This IS a war against terrorism and you and your fellow liberals reap the benefits without making any sacrifice. You ask the VAST majority of troops serving over there if they are making a difference and you will receive a resounding, YES! This is a mean, insidious enemy we are fighting, afguy and if you think your pacifism makes you immune from harm, then think again. We must learn from history and in doing so, we know appeasement ONLY works if you are willing to surrender your rights to the enemy. Thank God there are enough of us who understand this and are willing to FIGHT for our freedom. (and yours, too)

According to U.S. Census, about 26% of U.S. adult population 18+ has been diagnosed with a mental illness in the last year. While only 6% DX’d with a severe mental illness (severe bipolar, schizophrenia, etc).

From US Dept of Health & Human Services:

Striking Disparities in Mental Health Care Are Found for Racial and Ethnic Minorities
This Supplement documents the existence of several disparities affecting mental health care of racial and ethnic minorities compared with whites: (although would think when in military; most if not all treated equal re mental health) Issue would become on leave, or post-care? From report:

Minorities have less access to, and availability of, mental health services.

Minorities are less likely to receive needed mental health services.

Minorities in treatment often receive a poorer quality of mental health care.

Minorities are underrepresented in mental health research.

Here’s the other question — when military on leave, what care if provided?

I think that the idea that you can force freedom upon a people is paradoxical, because everything they have is forced upon them in the first place. The only way this is not worth it is if the effort fails. If Iraqis end up with a repressive dictatorship anyway, then I would concede that it was not worth it.

If they do manage to achieve a long term stable democracy, this has to be called a profound success. If that is the case, the Iraqi’s will have paid less of a price for their freedom than we have for ours! It’s a bargain.

Your are right Sean. Very well written! You hit the nail on the head. I worked for Bremer’s staff on my first tour and the incompetence/arrogance in the early days was amazing and we spent years recovering from that.

Less of a commentary about military suicides, and why they’re occurring more frequently… more of a political commentary about war and Obama’s achievements, if we can even call them that. Title it an unoriginal politcal commentary/tribute to Obama next time, instead of masquerading behind the issue of military suicide. 1 paragraph is hardly enough to constitute a main subject.

So, should we invade any country with a repressive government then?

I understand why the veterans or parents of the ones killed hang on to the concept of the nobility of what we are doing over there.
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Would you want to try to come to emotional terms with the fact that your leaders lied to you, you and your child believed them, and he/she lost their life as a result of that faith and trust?
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I do understand that need.
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It’s also why I think there’s a special circle of Hell reserved for those leaders who knowingly mislead their citizenry as some of ours have done, causing their unneeded sacrifice on a false cause.

Man, you guys can’t give it a rest, can you?

Except for World War II, when, to their credit, Pearl Harbor promptly changed their minds, we have not had a “liberal” war.
I needed tuition money and better work credentials was near the upper reaches for age and got a medical PDQ which I contested and lost since it was an MEPS error.
I was seeking a particular MOS which did not involve combat because if I were sent to Iraq, outside of returning fire if shot at, I considered being in combat there IMMORAL.
If we did not go to Iraq, I would have tried to volunteer sooner and sought a combat position.

Although, obviously, much more extreme, had you known what they did not know, if you were German in the early 1940s would you have tried hard to get into the German army or not?

What if it were volunteer?

If not, then you would understand why Liberals do not want to join the Army during the Iraq war.

For a liberal, more specifically, a “dove” or anti-war person it is a matter of morality NOT TO fight if you have any other means of work.

A Hawk or pro-war person who does not either join or get a medical PDQ, then you are both scared and a hawk. Hence, you are a chicken hawk.

Some liberals are in Iraq because they could not chose which place to fight in and did not have better opportunities.

Thank God there are enough of us who understand this and are willing to FIGHT for our freedom. (and yours, too)
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Is that what you are doing, earljr, or simply what you have been TOLD you are doing over there?
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More than a few of us believe we are fighting to “liberate” Iraqi oil. We seem to have a floating “mission statement” that has migrated over the years.
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Remember WMD? Ahmed Chalabi? Saddam was OUR thug when he was fighting the Iranians (who, in turn had been our friends when the Shah was in power)..
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We are simply continuing a clusterf*ck that has been in progress in that part of the world for the major part of a century. Our policies have changed and flip-flopped so many times there that it would be a major accomplishment if ANYONE can clearly state what were are trying to get done.
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Added points if you can find a country in that area whose citizenry actually believes anything we say from a foreign policy point-of-view.
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I admire your loyalty to the conservative movement, earlljr. A pity they haven’t done much to deserve it.

Mr. Klein, you said: The war in Iraq had nothing to do with our freedom …

First let me say, thank you for your response. Second, I will say that I agree that the war in Iraq had nothing to do with our own freedoms, and I never said that it did. I was however responding to your point that Iraqi democracy will never be “worth” the loss of life that it will have taken to achieve it. On that note, I would disagree. Freedom IS worth what it costs to attain it, which I believe has been demonstrated throughout history for every country that has been able to attain it, and then protect it. Granted this freedom was not the primary goal of this war, but it is the silver lining that we can gleam from this whole debacle (and I don’t intend to justify the war based on this point).

I mean, how do you feel about invading Zimbabwe? Or China? Or Saudi Arabia? They don’t have democracy there.

I am not on the record, nor will I go on record, as thinking that we need to “force democracy” onto countries. I was merely arguing the point that freedom IS worth the sacrifice it takes to achieve it (see my comments immediately above).

I’m not entirely sure you finished reading the article, as the conclusion you drew from it is like someone trying to fit a square peg into an octogonal hole. But at least read the responses written by the other readers. This has little to do with Obama, other than that he’s the President of the country that has had problems with military depression and/or suicide starting long before he was born.

Granted this freedom was not the primary goal of this war, but it is the silver lining that we can gleam from this whole debacle (and I don’t intend to justify the war based on this point).
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Thomas, I think you may be onto something there.
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When we reach a point at which SOMEONE can hold this debacle up to the light, then twist it around until we get a certain “silver lining” effect, THEN we’ll pack up, exit, and decide that, by George, we have enough democracy in place there to satisfy our guidelines.
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But, we’ll have to beat our heads against that wall a little longer to get there…

I’m very sorry that you find this discussion offensive, but I seriously doubt that any of these suicides are a result of repeated deployments. I have heard some of the harrowing tales of what deployed soldiers have witnessed there that caused them to have PTSD. If you didn’t witness those things – or if you didn’t experience PTSD, you are one of the lucky ones. No one chooses to have PTSD. Believe me, I know firsthand. I had PTSD, not as a result of being in a war zone, so it was probably a very minor case compared to what our soldiers experience. However, because of a medical condition, I was unable to take medication for it. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone! You don’t sleep – ever, which only exacerbates the problem. When you finally do collapse from sheer exhaustion, two hours later, you’re awakened from the horror that sent you into the spiraling nightmare that consumes your life.

This is not about avoiding deployments. This is about avoiding life and how it destroys you when the movies (memories) won’t stop playing over and over, awake or asleep. Mine was a very long time ago and I fully recovered. I still occasionally have nightmares, wake up screaming.

The problem with our soldiers is that we don’t have enough trained psychologists/counselors to provide follow-up care. We prescribe them drugs and send them on their merry way. Most can’t afford to pay the 50/50 to get private counseling, so they never get any, only drugs – and that doesn’t work!! I’m a military dependent; I know what I’m talking about. It is a very sad situation.

Sean,
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Just FYI – earljr’s a surgeon who did 2 tours in Iraq. I rake him over the coals but sympathize with his viewpoint.
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He’s just a little too much of the “victim of liberal prejudice” for my taste.

Does anyone know how many have committed suicide since the war in Iraq started?

If anyone saw the movie ‘The Hurt Locker’, it’s easy to see why suicides are up. Very sad.

RECENT MEDICAL REPORTS ON VETERANS RETURNING FROM IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN SHOW A VERY LARGE NUMBER OF SUICIDES AMONG SOLDIERS TAKING PAIN KILLERS AND PSYCHOTIC DRUGS TOGETHER. MILITARY DOCTORS ARE VERY COMPLIANT ISSUERS OF THESE MEDICATIONS AS THE PATIENT LEAVES AND THEN ONLY RETURNS TO GET HIS PRESCRIPTION RENEWED. FOR SOME REASON A REACTION BETWEEN THE TWO MEDICATIONS SEEMS TO BE CAUSING NUMEROUS SUICIDES. iT IS OCCURRING IN THE CIVILIAN POPULATION ALSO BUT THE MILITARY CAN OBTAIN THESE DRUGS FREE AND EASILY. SAYING THIS IS CAUSED BY CONSERVATIVE OR LIBERAL BIAS OR JUST OR UNJUST WAR IS RIDICULOUS.

“So, should we invade any country with a repressive government then?”
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A repressive government is an illegitimate government, and when we have an opportunity to change that circumstance without weakening our strength, then yes, we *should* take every opportunity. I know that we probably will not do that, but if you ask me if we should I would say yes.
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Eventually, we will get around to toppling every repressive regime, because all of them are a threat to us, but there will be missed opportunities and it will take a long time.
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Corruption and dictatorship are the cause for nearly all of the world’s major problems, and each time we succeed in introducing legitimacy, we increase the quality of life for everyone who comes after.

Please send a link to that report.

pchalk,
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I would imagine the repeated deployments would cause those “movies” to get longer and more vivid, wouldn’t you, until you can’t figure out where the “movie” ends and reality begins?
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I can’t see how ANYONE would be unaffected by what they are seeing over there after the 6th or 7th deployment, unless they were fortunate enough to be serving in a rear support activity.
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After a point, how do you decompress someone who has spent most of their adult lives shooting at people or watching others shoot at them, and watching their friends die?

First, let me premise my comments with a description of myself. I am a civilian working on an Army R & D base, and I have a bachelors degree in psychology. My father is a Vietnam War veteran, and my boyfriend is a currently enlisted Sgt, with 13 yrs in the Army, who has deployed to Iraq twice, and has a Bronze Star and Purple Heart due to the events that occurred while he was overseas. He still has 7 years left till retirement, and it is always a possibility that he could be sent back into combat.
Suicides are up, and you better believe I am concerned. Why are they up? Most of you are correct…long and frequent deployments (for those in the Army), financial burdens at home, and frankly, the difficulty of adapting to “normal” life at home once they return to the states. Not only are our service men and women separated from their loved ones for long periods of time, but if they are Infantrymen like my boyfriend, they are facing horrific and terrifying events in the field on a regular basis. On top of that, they have to worry about what their spouses are doing while they are away. My boyfriend’s ex wife was happy to collect his paycheck while he was in Iraq, and she was also happy to cheat on him while he was away. This scenario is far too common.
Then our Warfighters come home and realize that they may not know how to do “regular” things like have conversations with their spouse, manage their finances, or do “boring” work like sit at a desk job all day. It’s a dramatic transition and life at home is drastically different from the front lines of the battlefield. Change is difficult, whether it’s for good or bad.
Our service people not only need support of friends and family, they also need psychiatric support. It should not be stigmatized! Antidepressants are VERY effective, and the correlation with suicides is actually extremely low. (most studies linking suicides with medication focus on teenagers). As for benzodiazepines, they are not a danger if monitored by a responsible physician, and given in reasonable dosages for a controlled period of time. So the person blabbing on about celebrities and benzos obviously has no scholerly knowledge on the subject and should do some research before blogging.
I also find it ludicrous that someone can’t go to Officer’s school if they have had depression in the previous 6 months. That basically encourages people to lie and conceal their feelings, because EVERYONE who experienced war first hand is going to experience depression and PTSD to some degree. Even if they don’t recognize those feelings or know how to put a name to them, I promise you they are experiencing the symptoms in one way or another.
Our service men and women need support in every way shape and form, as well as the ability to have honest conversations with their chain of command. Only then will the rate of suicides go down.

Wow. The fact that you (and other neo-cons) can claim such a moral superiority still baffles me no matter how many times I encounter it. I’d ask how one would go about determining which governments would need toppling (and hope to see some sort of nuance there), but I know you would have a pat, black and white answer. It would be nice if the world worked like that, but it doesn’t.

America cannot be the world’s babysitter. We should encourage democracy through all available, non-military channels.

I truly find it hard to believe that there are people disputing the fact that we in the military are under stress. I’m a female SNCO, been in the AF 18 years, and I take Zoloft to deal with stress-induced anxiety and panic attacks–and I don’t even deploy! I can’t imagine what it is like for those soldiers who are constantly down range living the life they are required to lead.

To those who think it’s an all-volunteer force–no. We are a force who is in mainly because of circumstance–no civilian job opportunities, a family to feed, and once you make it past that 10-year mark–heck, even the eight-year mark, you realize…you’re sort of in it for the long haul.

Another thing, in response to the first comments–I am a proud flag waving liberal–the difference is I don’t feel the need to wave my political flag in other’s faces. Yes, a vast majority of those (at least those I have encountered) in the military are conservative–but if you ask them why they have no idea what they even STAND for. Many people in the military are conservative only because the guy next to him is–not because they are knowledgeable or up to speed on any of the conservative platforms.

It wouldn’t surprise me if many of the men and women on the ground (and I’m speaking of those with actual boots on the ground in a combat area, not those in top leadership positions) actually know what the mission is or the reasons behind it, and not because they are dumb or ill-informed but because that’s just the way of the military. They are there simply because they have to be; I doubt WANT has little to do with it.

My husband committed suicide as a recruiter 11 years ago. I hope soldiers take the time to think about how suicide affects the family. First, fingers were pointed at our family; we must have done something to make him kill himself. Second, we lost all our support systems. Nobody knew what to say or felt uncomfortable when this happened to us. Third, we did not receive life insurance as it was a suicide and it has been rough financially to this day. Fourth, I gained weight and became unhealthy and suffered from anxiety and depression. When my son reached his teen years he began to suffer from anxiety. When my daughter married, she cannot handle any newlywed argument and gets anxiety. When a soldier takes his life, he passes the shame, guilt, and the burden on to his family. The military is not equipped with helping family members of suicide except the initial death and financial details. Then the family goes home ALONE ,,,,,,trying to cope. Dad is not here anymore to protect his children but the mark of suicide never completely goes away.

Disparaging Bush’s folly is not a tribute to Obama – if anything, the author is wondering why we aren’t out sooner. The soldiers in Iraq all know deep down that their friends have gone down and they’re putting their lives on the line for the largest boondoggle mistake in US history, and in Afghanistan the right reasons can’t compete with years of poor execution.

Listen, nobody believes in the US government right now, right or left, but these soldiers are DYING and missing out on the best part of their lives – for what? JUST BRING THEM HOME!!!!!!!!!!

Then riccarrdo, we have willingly supported and condoned a large number of “illegitimate governments” over the years in that part of the world, including, I might add, some supposed “democracies”.
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And be VERY careful there… you just described Israel as meeting the “over-throw” thresh-hold with your “repressive government” label…

Joe,
Do you care about the troops, or about making a political statement? I read the first few lines and thought this might be an informing report, but instead you used a snapshot of data merely to launch an attack on the previous administration. Army suicide rate data is the newest fad among journalists to use as a proxy for lambasting the neoconservative movement….something the “No Blood For Oil” contingency latched onto when they realized the neocons weren’t after oil after all. You almost made it halfway through your report before switching gears to launch your anti-neocon diatribe, and for that, I commend you. I’m glad to know that you and your ilk can put on a facade of caring for the welfare of our troops when it suits your political agenda.

Army suicide rates have indeed gone up in the last few years. But what the journalists frequently leave out is that suicide rates in the Army were significantly lower than their age-matched civilian counterparts for many years, and only recently pulled even (and may be slightly ahead now) with them. To read some of the media reports, you would think it was an epidemic of panic-inducing proportions. And to further fuel reader outrage, you media scum frequently throw out assertions that it is the way the military mental health system is taking care of our soldiers, and you can see the ignorance runs rampant in the reader comments, as many are implying that SSRIs may share a large part of the blame. Do you guys honestly think that doctors in the military are going to treat soldiers with any treatment modality other than that which has been proven to be the best in the medical literature? SSRIs are not without drawbacks, but when they are used it is because physicians have determined that the potential benefits outweigh the potential risks. Even if SSRI use could be a factor in some of the Army suicides, it has certainly prevented more than it has contributed to, or else doctors wouldn’t have sufficient basis to prescribe them.

But suicide rates have gone up. And the primary factor is repeated deployments that stress the family unit, lead to a rise in divorces (the divorce rate data among soldiers who have deployed is MUCH more impressive than the suicide rate data), and cause mental fatigue. Throw in a rise in PTSD/depression rates from combat trauma, as well as the fact that waivers to enter the military with prior mental health issues were more freely granted a few years ago due to demand for more troops, and you have a recipe for more suicides. Frankly, the military mental health system has done an outstanding job preventing suicides, considering the suicide rates are roughly equal to civilian-matched counterparts who haven’t been deployed and been separated from their families and shot at and mortared and seen their friends blown up.

And what relevance does the political justification for going to war have when discussing suicides? I would contend that it has very little, but you seem too agenda-driven to go without trying to make the tie-in. Repeated deployments strain our troops, regardless of political justifications.

But I would contend that the most egregious offense of reports like these is that they don’t help the problem. The liberal media has found a cash cow with Army suicide data, as reports draw a lot of reader interest and are used to further their political agenda. But at the end of the day, our soldiers are hearing “suicide, suicide, suicide,” because it is all over the media. The frequent reporting has a way of normalizing it and perhaps even helping to destigmatize it. And what’s worse is that ignorant reports and assertions that SSRIs may be to blame only serve to undermine the confidence that soldiers have in the military mental health system, and this may further prevent some from getting treatment they need.

Does “objective” journalism still exist? You wear your political biases on your sleeve.

Hooah!

“Corruption and dictatorship are the cause for nearly all of the world’s major problems”

Imagine if a country was so corrupt that an OIL EXPLORATION company got a NO-BID LONG TERM contract on feeding American soldiers and doing outsource work when the Army already had personnel trained to do things just because the company is partially owned by the vice president of that country and, worse yet, if that war was started based upon known false information.

Whatever happens, we have to make sure that governments like that do not come to power.

We must fight against corruption.

(No, Cheney wasn’t a dicTATOR, just Dick.)

ammogirl,
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Are you by any chance a “b-b stacker”?

Then I suppose all of these “home grown” terrorists are a figment of our imagination. The thwarted plots to attack major U.S. targets nothing but conservative propaganda. Get your head out of the sand, afguy and patrick. These people want to KILL you (and your family) They will do so, given the opportunity. Our staying on the offensive against these murdering thugs sends a loud and clear message, “attack us at your own peril”. They consider appeasement a sign of major weakness in their enemy. Are you willing to risk your family’s life to prove the conservatives wrong? If so, good luck with that. I predict you will soon become a casualty of this insidious war. And for ALL of that oil we were allegedly after, can you trace ONE drop that we have stolen from the mid east? Of course not…it is a liberal talking point with absolutely NO merit. I say keep the bad guys on the run or holed up in caves somewhere. It is by far, our best choice.

afguy,

IYAAYAS.

Isn’t it ironic that with the suicide rate climbing in all of the services that when it comes time to talk about personnel policy, the only thing the right wants to talk about is how to keep gays and lesbians out of the military? Gays and lesbians are the least of the US military’s problems!

What is it about the US now that we can’t deal with our problems? Be it how to get out of a war we had no business starting, to paying our bills with the right mix of spending and taxes, to how to give everyone access to affordable health care, all we seem to be able to do is talk around issues and not deal with them. And then there are problems like suicide in the military that we just ignore.

We need to deal with our issues in a logical, up front and adult manner. We all have been acting like spoiled children for far too long. That includes both the politicians and us citizens.

P.S.–If you want a reputable source of info on suicide rates, see these links:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104008228
and
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/30/army-suicide-rates-hit-re_n_162484.html

Then I understand the need for the tranquilizers…
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Me – AGS/CRS/FTD.

Like, I suspect, a lot of Vietnam Vets I fall into an incontrollable rage each time I visit the memorial because I see all of those names inscribed thereon as the waste of my generation. How many future presidents, senators, and congressman died in that quagmire instead of leading this country to greatness. We will never know. The two draft dodging presidents that we had will not go down in history as any of our greatest.
My rage returns each time I see the PBS Newshour show the pictures of our fallen from Iraq and Afghanistan. Again we waste out future. Why? Why?
There is only one solution. The next time our leaders want to go to war, then they must reinstate the draft and make it a universal draft. If a war is necessary, then let everyone serve and take his or her own chances. I think we would thereby see less war and less suicides.
In addition, no one should have the power to send anyone off to war unless that sender has himself or herself had the unforgettable experience of urinating all over him or herself because your muscles fail in moments of extreme fear. You will never see war in the same light after you have pissed and/or shit all over yourself like a little baby. It is infantile.

Then I suppose all of these “home grown” terrorists are a figment of our imagination.
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No, earljr, Timothy McVeigh and the idiot in Austin with the airplane were very real… and you are right! “Home-grown” does describe them…
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In fact, I’m more worried about some fruitcake with an assault rifle walking into a gov’t building here and taking his “Beck-or-Limbaugh-inspired” frustrations out over some perceived grievance than I am about another 9/11.
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We ARE being attacked, earljr, and ME terrorists have little to do with it. We’re imploding all by our lonesome.
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Ask yourself WHY anyone would object to a couple hundred thousand of OUR troops in THEIR country, earljr.
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Would WE object if the shoe were on the other foot, even if they told us it was for our own good?

Sean –

As always, I really value your posts. I always like to see posts from actual serving members of the Armed Forces commenting on these issues (regardless of what side they take) because I am not nor have I ever been in the service, and I need to hear these viewpoints to inform my opinions.

I won’t say “thank you for your service” because I know that’s the punchline to many a gallows humor joke these days, but for what it’s worth, the last nine years has made me appreciate the high quality of our servicemen and women, who are being asked to do more and more while the nation seems to value it less and less, and to realize how important it is never, ever, to put them in harm’s way unnecessarily (again).

Thanks.

“These people want to KILL you (and your family)”
Back in the 1980s Saddam Husein was too busy counting American taxpayer money Ronald Reagan was sending him to even come near New York or, except to get the Key to the City of Detroit, to the United States at all.
Between Desert Storm and the Second Iraq war, Iraqis had three major things they were trying to get: breakfast lunch and dinner. They weren’t able to come to the US and steal our McDonald’s happy meal.
AFTER we started our second attack on Iraq and bin Laden’s ENEMY Husein lost power, some of Al Qada did enter Iraq.
So, we can thank our last administration who started this war for opening up a newly lawless place for Al Qada to settle into when, before we came, Husein would have had them executed.

I have no idea how starting a new war could impact domestic terrorists other than raising taxes and making Joe Stack into a suicide bomber in Texas.
Eric Robert Rudolph the Olympic bomber in 1996 and Timothy McVeigh could not have been stopped by sending our soldiers to Iraq.

Do you think we should send out troops to Georgia, Oklahoma and Texas to stop domestic terrorism?

Except for that random remark about domestic terrorism, it seems as if you were reading a Republican talking point verbatim.

Sorry, the “home grown” was a part of a very good response, not your original remarks.
You were retyping a Republican talking point verbatim (that means word for word).

And what relevance does the political justification for going to war have when discussing suicides?
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Joe’s point is that war has a real, human cost and that cost should only be incurred when absolutely necessary, and not lightly or for questionable motives. That should be simple enough for you to understand.
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You wear your political biases on your sleeve.
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As do you.

For what it’s worth, whenever I see any active military (as opposed to chickenhawks and retireds) discussing DADT, the discussion is without drama. Most seem to think it’s a non-issue, even those who have concerns aren’t wringing their hands over it. Congress could take a lesson there.

Joe Klein:
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Thanks so much for responding to commentary, it is greatly appreciated.

Just think what Young Republicans alone could contribute by enlisting. Oh, that’s right, when asked they say they have more to contribute by going to school and staying politically involved.
At the beginning of the Iraq war I emailed big war supporter Jonah Goldberg of NRO why he didn’t enlist. His response was he had a family to raise.
This is the definition of “chicken hawk” or “keyboard warrior”.

I don’t know the statistics.
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Inconceivable as it may be to you, shouldn’t you perhaps have looked those up prior to posting, so that your commentary could have been of some minimum value?

The newspaper Klein linked to with the Casey interview serves a large military population and the story is of interest. Liberal issue? Pleeeeeaaaassee.
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grape, I know from your posts that you are a thoughtful and insightful person. Please don’t waste your talents on puffed-up, overblown, verbose gasbags.

ricardo: The American Civil War started in April 1861 after the Conferates attack Fort Sumpter. The original goal of the reaction to the attack was to prevent secession and the break up of the Union.
Lincoln did not state The Emancipation Proclamation until September 1862.
It was not a premptive war.

Well, apr2563, you have to admit the Neocons DO believe in recycling…
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That rationale for skipping any real service has many, many fingerprints on it.
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It’s a “classic”…

Probably the finest movie about returning vets is “The Best Years of Our Lives.” It clearly showed what war did to the psychy of the soldiers and what the aftermath of returning home did.
Watch it some time. It tells the story of 3 GIs returning after WWII. I don’t think the horrors of war and the consequences have changed.

Patrick, I know our government is not without corruption. But if you see corruption in your own government, be glad that you can feel safe about bringing it into the open. In Saddam’s Iraq you wouldn’t even allow yourself to think about such a thing much less say it, because if your child repeated it at school your whole family would be tortured and imprisoned. It is disingenuous to try to compare your government to that.
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This is something we ought to never stop fighting against. If we can change this with ‘negotiations’ that would be so great, but unfortunately authoritarian governments tend to operate by force. That is why we call them ‘authoritarian’ and also why we don’t like them and also why they are a threat to us.
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A few might wake up and change for the good of their people, but most will have to be taken down when the opportunity presents itself, and we should not have regrets when we can accomplish that. Making someone free who is not is something that ought to fill you with pride.
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Don’t get me started on Israel, I know well that this apartheid system is untenable. (No need for apologies Mr. Carter! Call it like it is!)

Thank you to all the current and past military people posting to this thread. Sometimes we just talk to each other on this site. It is great to hear from you all and your perspectives. I learned from all of your comments.

billiecat, one of the few people I knew in the military who committed suicide did so while being processed for discharge for consenting homosexual acts. Conversely, a few months later at another post, I met several soldiers who were assigned to a holding company (meaning held with no duty assignment) pending investigation of their request to be discharged for homosexual orientation. They complained that the army would not believe them and wouldn’t process a discharge. I don’t know what the outcome was.

I’d call this thread more than a little therapeutic… for ALL of us here.

“I also find it ludicrous that someone can’t go to Officer’s school if they have had depression in the previous 6 months. That basically encourages people to lie and conceal their feelings, because EVERYONE who experienced war first hand is going to experience depression and PTSD to some degree. Even if they don’t recognize those feelings or know how to put a name to them, I promise you they are experiencing the symptoms in one way or another.”
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On one hand I can see why, because they don’t want to put “risky” people in serious and sensitive situations. Then again, what isn’t a serious and sensitive situation when you’re in the military? Especially when you’re deployed.
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On the topic of cheating spouses: I’ve been told horror stories about military members returning home to absolutely nothing. No house, no furniture, no spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend. I can’t even begin to imagine what kind of person would do that. I am sure this and a lack of general support from the population also contributes to depression and the rising suicide rates.
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Also, Leftwetcoast, I know that suicide is a very big issue and the military is pushing for awareness, trying to make services more available, and more.

Ricardo,
If we went to war with every single country which had some limitations on free speech beneath the Western standard of the US, Western Europe and Japan, we would be in war extremely often.
One thing about Husein was that he was not as successful at being a viscous dictator as people like Stalin who’s secret police would always get you for voicing discontent and throw in a few people who like him for good measure.
There are places I do believe we should have been which were, incontestably worse:
Rwanda 1994: 500,000 women, children and other non-combatants murdered.
Darfur, Sudan 2003: 400,000 women, children and other non-combatants murdered.

These are people who did not even complain about their government! They were executed for being the wrong ethnic group!

With all of the costs of war, as they say, in “blood and treasure” (also, peace of mind as this article is about) Husein was not the worst villain out there.
Furthermore, the war itself and the sanctions between 1991 and 2003 as well ruined the economy to the point of potential starvation and closed down civil society as they knew it. It was a cure which may have been worse than the dissease.

In Rwanda and Darfur (I am not at all above being critical of Democrat, Clinton should have taken action in Rwanda) there was nothing worse than the slaughter.

We must, very literally, pick out battles.
We did so very poorly with Iraq.

I can. Otherwise, you would get more of the A-10 pilot who went off course with a load of 500lb bombs a few years ago.
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Depending on the job they will be doing, you screen, screen some more, then screen again.
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I’d rather get the unstable ones out up-front than have the chance of an Austin-type situation, not with a light aircraft, but with a fully-loaded and armed warplane.
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Otherwise – points taken.

Grape, what are the pros/cons of weighing the human costs of war when we are already at war? Is considering the suicide rate somehow going to decrease the costs of a war we are already in? The time to weigh the human costs of war is when making the decision to go to war. As I mentioned before, I would contend that the media interest in harping on suicide data may do more harm than good, for reasons I mentioned above….particularly when they start implying the military mental health system shares some of the blame, which several prominent reports have done. And this isn’t an anti-liberal thing on my part….I’m independent and I’m not too crazy about the war either, but stuff like this isn’t the best way to go about protesting it. I fear it is undermining confidence in the military mental health system, and the stigma of mental health among soldiers (who are all about machismo) is already existent as it is.

formerlyjames, suicide data is indeed (or should indeed) be a nonpolitical issue, but if you try opening your eyes and look around you will that liberals are tripping over each other to publish it and opine on it. And you need to only look as far as this blog post to see that there is a political agenda behind it (oh, those darn neo-conservatives!). The military publication you reference has taken an interest in it because the media has made it a very visible issue and thus the military wants to be very visible in their recognition and response to it…it’s not rocket science. But you can bury your head in the sand of ignorance if you prefer and convince yourself the anti-war contingency doesn’t seem overly eager to beat this issue into the ground for political reasons. And for future advice, resorting to juvenile tactics by calling names doesn’t strengthen your argument.

(1) Timothy McVeigh and his ilk fit into a whole different loony category. I am talking about “soldiers for Islam”, the moniker these would be murderers attach to themselves. They train in Yemen and Pakistan for the explicit purpose of creating mayhem in the U.S. According to reports, they were close to committing mass murder on the subways of NYC. This threat is not imagined, it is very real.(2) I, for one, celebrate the removal of Saddam and his brutal regime. The poisonous gas attacks were very real and HE made it quite clear that he was prepared to use “whatever means it took” to destroy alleged enemies of Iraq. Was he a threat to peace in the Mid East? Yes, I happen to think he was. You can argue all you want about the merit of our being involved in this conflict. We ARE there and our troops deserve our complete support.(3) If we had taken a firm stand in Europe in 1939, patrick. the lives of 14 million innocent people would have been spared the abject misery of the holocaust. Neville Chamberlain tried appeasing Hitler, with catastrophic results! The liberals blew this one badly.

Thanks so much for an amazingly useful thread, commenters.

I think it’s fair to criticise our government, and maybe we attacked the wrong people at the wrong times or turned our heads at the wrong times or whatever.
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Just don’t say that democracy for 30 million people is not worth it. We’re not out of the woods yet, and this whole thing can still go south on us, but if it works, then it is more than worth it. It’s a bargain.

Dave
In 2003 there was all of this chatter that the media was LIBERAL (as if it were a four letter word) and, if you recall, there was hardly a word coming from anybody critical of going to war on what already seemed likely to be false grounds.
Right those of us posting about how dumb the Iraq War was to start are mostly setting the groundwork amongst ourselves to remember to make sure that your younger brother or sister, younger cousin or whatever other relatives you may have who have, also, enlisted will not be telling this story in five years; your sons will not be telling this story in twenty five years and your grandchildren will not know about wars started on false pretenses.

dave, thanks for the response. I apologize and will hold my name calling thoughts to my self. It does not change that I still think what you said is rubbish. If that is name calling, I again apologize. I will add that the right wing stepped on my last nerve last week-end with the Klein attack. I criticize him sometimes, but like to think there is some reasonable thought attached when I do. He supports the wars more than I do, and in most ways as much as the right wing does. And noway, no day, can anybody even suggest that he is even slightly anti-military. That is laughable.

Patrick,
I agree with most of what you say and appreciate your civil response. My issue is with the timing of making this a prominent issue (and it is indeed very prominent, as either Time or Newsweek magazine had it as their covery story within the last couple years). In ten or twenty years, if there are talks of going to war, we should absolutely be pointing out suicide as one of the costs of war and offering up data from previous wars to help state our case. At that time, the pros of casting bright lights on it will outweigh the cons. At present, I fear that the overreporting of this issue (and frequently the manner in which it is being reported) is creating a lot of anxieties within the military and undermining confidence in the health care system. I know because I am in fairly close proximity to the receiving end of this (I will say no more).

Earljr,

in 1939 DEMOCRATS wanted to enter World War II and REPUBLICANS including their presidential candidate Wendell Wilkie were the Isolationists (peacenicks).
Democrats hated Hitler more than Republicans did since, Nazis took conservative ideals (including religion – Hitler even started the Reich Church) and took them to an extreme that would sicken everybody.
FDR and liberals were sickened before the Republicans were.
The precursor to the CIA known as the OSS was filled with academics and liberals.

You forgive white christian right wing lunatics as if they were somehow different.
I live in NYC.
If I get killed going to work or eating lunch it doesn’t matter if it’s a white guy who loves Jesus and hates taxes or if it’s Muslim who loves Allah. Dead is dead!
I want to see the most right wing groups like the militias and Joe Stack’s extreme anti-tax people along with the most radical part of the pro-life movement Eric Rudolf belonged to under scrutiny as much as the Mosques of Queens and Brooklyn.
Out of the last five terrorist attacks, there was the failed 1993 attack on WTC by Muslims killing four people. There was McVeigh an American right wing nut killing hundreds. There was Eric Rudolf a religious fanatic killing half a dozen. Then there was 9/11 (of course 3,000 including a very distant relative of mine I had never and never will meet). Now there is Joe Stack.

At least one third of our counter terrorism efforts should be using law enforcement domestically on domestic terrorists.

Saddam Husein was an American puppet from 1969 until we no longer needed him 1991. We cut off imports limiting even food and medical supplies to his helpless people and then, we too the very, very anti- Al Qada leader in 2003, destroyed his country, killed thousands of his people and executed him.
It was move that would have made Tony Soprano blush red it was so back handed and ruthless.

As Husein’s people left, in came elements of Al Qada.
Bin Laden must have been dancing in the streets when Husein was hanged.

It was Afghanistan which needed, after the Soviet withdrawal in 1989 schools, hospitals, police stations, prisons and a national guard of their own to prevent Muslim extremist from entering.
Surely enough, slash and burn Republicans didn’t want to build schools for the Afghans so the Afghans got an education from the fundamentalist Muslims who taught them how to pray, shoot and explode.

A liberal is a conservative who takes the time to read.

formerlyjames,
Thanks for your reply and your apology, and sorry about some of the “head in the sand” comments. And I’m sorry to Mr. Klein if I implied he didn’t support the military….I was making generalizations based on some of the reports I have seen (and some of the motives from those reporters that I have questioned), and I may have projected more onto him than he deserved. I have seen some stuff from journalists on this issue that was very lacking in integrity and very agenda-driven (moreso than this).

Dave,
The media tends to go way overboard on something and then completely ignore it.
For example, my family has lived in and around New York City for approximately one hundred years (as long as we have been in the country) and none of us have ever been the victim of a serious crime at all.
Watch the news sometimes (and movies are crazier) you’d think NEW YORK is a combat zone.
That’s one of many examples of media exaggerations.

Who the h*ll do you think gave him the materials for that poison gas, earljr? The Tooth Fairy?
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We did… when he was OUR pet, anti-Iranian thug.
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Like I said, we are constantly cleaning up messes of our own making in that part of the world. We simply aren’t capable of taking a “long-range” view there. We haven’t for a couple of generations.
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It’s absolutely killing our credibility there and elsewhere.

I want to see the most right wing groups like the militias and Joe Stack’s extreme anti-tax people along with the most radical part of the pro-life movement Eric Rudolf belonged to under scrutiny as much as the Mosques of Queens and Brooklyn.
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NOW we’re getting somewhere, earljr. I agree…. but want to go further. I want the media and assorted politicians to start calling these psychopaths what they are – terrorists.
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Don’t rationalize or sugar-coat what they did, blaming it on nebulous government policies. What they did qualifies by its very definition to be called what it is. The fact that they are white and American citizens makes no difference whatsoever.
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They are extremists – pure and simple, just as the ones that kill in the name of their religion are also extremists.
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And finally, the personalities that call for and enable these actions with their rhetoric should be scrutinized as much as the Muslim preachers who broadcast hate.
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Would you agree to that? Or is hate speech protected ONLY when it’s done from behind a conservative talkshow microphone?

Earljr1: From the perspective of the Liberal, there is a significant difference between a person believing that America shouldn’t go to war (or in a specific war) and not serving and a person believing that the might/security/etc of America should be enforced by its military (putting brave men and women in harm’s way) without, yourself, having served. Why? Because of the Golden Rule: do unto others as they would do unto you. If you are not willing to make the sacrifice, then you should not decide that others have to make that sacrifice. (Fine, it’s far more complicated than that, but still).
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It is also a flaw to be talking about homegrown terrorism as a reason Liberals should be gearing up for war. Radicalization will always happen those such as Timothy McVeigh are proof of that. Timothy McVeigh was purported responding to a Christian extremist that had effectively been killed on the order of the Clinton administration. Today, the person that radicals reach out to are Islamo-fascists because of the “War on Terror”.
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Liberals don’t deny that terrorism exists and we don’t deny that the terrorists want to kill us and will kill us, we just don’t necessarily agree that it needs to be prevented on the blood of our soldiers or that all operations taken thus far have had the best impacts. In 1998, Clinton was getting close to a deal with the Taliban that would have seen the Taliban hand over Bin Laden – 3 years prior to 9/11. While working on the deal, Clinton was given actionable intelligence of Bin Laden’s location and launched a missile at him – on Afghanistan soil. The Taliban nixed the deal in response and actually grew closer to Bin Laden. The rest is history. Imagine if we’d grabbed Bin Laden then?
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Today, American forces are stretched incredibly thin between Afghanistan and Iraq and allied NATO forces have become less and less able and/or willing to assist (Canada will actually require a full year to recover sufficiently to take up another operation after it pulls out in 2011).
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For me, that, more than anything, is why military action makes no sense. You go to country after country after country – often countries that have little or not government control (Yemen, Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan) and may have to be toppled if you go against the terrorists (Afghanistan, Iraq – kinda since there weren’t any terrorists), depleting your resources and capability of doing counter-terrorism while the terrorists go find another hole to hide in. A global game of whack a mole that really gets you nowhere.
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Better solution: look at it as an intelligence and law enforcement problem. A significant number of extremists we have caught are due to improvements by Bush to both of those sectors. Use diplomacy to help gather cooperation of governments from around the globe – look at Pakistan and their assistance in recent months. And keep in mind that terrorism is a reality all nations share and have shared in perpetuity for an insane number of reasons – look at the IRA and Chechnya. There is always someone that wants to kill you, there is always someone jealous of your nation’s success or furious at your nation’s sins (real or imagined) to the point of extremism. Right now, there are millions of Americans so furious at the sins of Iran that they want to bomb the country. Or the sins of Darfur. A decade ago, it was the sins of Serbia. Since 9/11, the nations of Israel, of Spain, of Britain, of India, of Pakistan and Afghanistan and Iraq (and so many more) have suffered terrorist attacks.
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If all nations must suffer the brunt of these attacks from other nations, why is America the only one responding by invading other nations? Is it because of the scope of the attack? Is it because America is so mighty that it can? Is that right? To a Liberal, the answer is no. Yes, we reap the benefits, we thank you for your willingness to put your life on the line, some of us thank you for providing us the benefits you did, but we do not believe that this is the right way. You did what you were asked to do, we can’t ask you to do anything else. What you were ordered to do, we can ask for that to be different, we believe it should be different, and we are disappointed that you and your fellow soldiers were asked to make those sacrifices.
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There are many ways to combat terrorism and they may not all be equally successful, but we know which way we’d prefer.
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But to get back to the original point: we do not fault those who wish to put their lives on the line to do what they believe in. We fault those who put other people’s life on the line to do what they believe in.

ricardo,
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Got a question… exactly when did we determine that a democracy was what they wanted when they have had almost NO history of such?
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Is it what they want – or what we want for them? Should they decide they want to elect conservative theocrats for public office, are we prepared to support that, or will we demand that they redo the election, in the hopes that we finally get someone who supports our presence?
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Would we support that charlatan Chalabi if he won? The guy who lied to get us in there in the first place, who WE supported as the president AFTER Saddam, and who now is a supporter of Iranian involvement.
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We just need to get out of there and let them get on with life. Right now, the best I’m afraid we can hope for is that they don’t hate us for a few generations.
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To me, THAT would be a victory in and if itself.

Afguy,
I disagree with you.
Once a country goes into another country, wins – which involves breaking everything in sight just about – make sure the government you leave behind is friendly, not hostile, send aid money for many years to create non-secular, non-partisan schools for everybody, create or rebuild social services so that the unemployed can eat food and sleep indoors, rebuild police departments, prisons and a national guard like organization.
If we do this, we will be loved, missed and, somewhat, fondly remembered. Children will get education including work skills instead of propaganda. There will not be bands of wandering homeless radicals who may decide to blow things or people up since they have food and a bed to sleep in. Local sociopaths will be arrested by the police instead of becoming chieftains of gangs or, worse yet, militias and jailed and, if one of them escapes and tries to overthrow the government riot police and/or something like the National Guard could keep them from causing too much harm.
Countries treated this way by the US:
Japan
All of the EEC countries after WWII

Countries ignored after war:
World War One Germany and Afghanistan

Since GHWB and Dick broke everything in sight, we have to make sure it is fixed so that they will be singing Allah bless America instead breeding new terrorists.

And LIBERALS work on unnecessary expensive projects for no reason?

Your perception of events leading up to world war two are not entirely accurate. Roosevelt was elected in 1933 vowing to “never send our boys into harms way again” By 1938 he had softened this stance but was prohibited by a series of “neutrality” laws passed by a Democratic congress, to take a more aggressive posture.Wendell Wilkie was anything but an isolationist. His platform advocated the strengthening of both our army and navy and the gearing up of industry to better meet the requirements for increasing our military strength. He was ultimately nominated by Roosevelt as a special envoy for military matters and served VERY WELL in this capacity until his death in 1944. Look, afguy, a terrorist is a terrorist any way you wish to color him. I am simply saying that we must pursue these guys very aggressively…both home and abroad. War is horrendously expensive, both monetarily and in human toll (this I know from first hand experience) FDR knew this, but also knew the consequences of non action. He chose the latter and rightly so. In conclusion, afguy, how in the world did you reach the conclusion America supplied Saddam with poisonous gas! This is simply NOT TRUE. We found and destroyed his gas making facility and arrested the engineers and scientists responsible for manufacturing this lethal (and illegal) concoction. There were NO ties to America.

One notion that I find ridiculous and insulting is that Iraqi’s are SO different than the rest of humanity that they don’t even WANT to speak their minds! And WE forced them to!
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I am willing to bet that we have more friends in Iraq now than we ever did. Funny how you can go to war with a country and make friends there… How can that be?

1) Adolph Hitler was not in power in March 4th 1933, so, without psychic powers to know Hitler would take over August 2 1934 and turn out as he did, FDR was not in favor of randomly picking a country to go to war with.
2) Charles Lindbergh was an anti-World War II activist before Pearl Harbor, backed Wendell Wilkie. Wilkie did not distance himself in the least from one issue Lindbergh.
3)FDR created Lend Lease firmly putting the US in German cross hairs and even had ships like the Lusitania tracking submarines to report them to the RAF to be bombed.
4)FDR cut off oil supplies (we were exporters back then, not importers) to Japan, enraging them.

Fifty three years later:

5) The first time Saddam Husein used poison gas was March 16–17, 1988, when Ronald Reagan sent him US Tax dollars to pay for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack

It is possible we did or did not make the poison gas in the United States, but, we helped pay for it.

How awful to see commentators politicizing the tragedy of military suicides by focusing more on partisan blame than empathy for the families, Soldiers, and efforts to keep our sacred trust with America’s servicemen and women.

What a frivolous debate. Who’s more patriotic, liberals or conservatives? Who’s braver, liberals or conservatives? Besides the obvious fact that there is categorically no way to quantify patriotism or bravery, you all seem to overlook the glaring issue of what precisely these so-called liberals and conservatives are? Sure, we know what these philosophies are, but how do we define the people who align with these ideologies? Surely, there is no uniform mold that all liberals and all conservatives respectively fit into? I’m sorry, afguy I general can appreciate what you have to say, patrick I enjoyed our lively discourse on the Israel thread, earl I’m not really familiar with you, but damn, fellas, this is simply pedantic.

Once a country goes into another country, wins – which involves breaking everything in sight just about – make sure the government you leave behind is friendly, not hostile, send aid money for many years to create non-secular, non-partisan schools for everybody, create or rebuild social services so that the unemployed can eat food and sleep indoors, rebuild police departments, prisons and a national guard like organization.
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Exactly how are we progressing to do any of this? Do we have a stable government in place to ensure that the money given is spent for the good of the country? We went into the country with pallets of cash and NO accoutability! A number of our successes have been bought with bribes and weapons for the various factions because that would yield quicker results. The thought that those weapons MIGHT be used against us later (after the “deals” fell apart), wasn’t a consideration. Remember what I said about our lack of “long-range planning” in that part of the world?
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I agree about WWII – the Marshall Plan was a model of evenhandedness and generosity. Unfortunately, we didn’t have a George C. Marshall in charge after we deposed Saddam – we had a Paul Bremer and NO REAL PLAN. Just lots of rosy-colored glasses to wear.
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But the idea that “they are just like everyone else in the world” isn’t exactly born out, even by the neighbors.
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We have had to modify our operations in Afghanistan because the central government is so corrupt and weak. We make deals with a variety of warlords because, once again, it’s how to get more immediate results. The central govt really has no power in many parts of the country.
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Does THAT sound like “just like everyone else”?
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Their culture over there is more of patriarchal or “strong-man” system than democratic. Has been for centuries. I imagine that they think it rather presumptious of a nation who has existed for only 250 years to be telling them what’s good for them, with their 3000-year-old heritage.
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What we would LIKE to do is noble, but we’re not the first foreign force to try to impose the type of government WE WANT on the population. Sooner or later, we’ll realize that they don’t like foreigners telling them what to do and what to like.
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Friends, Ricardo? We have lots of friends there? How did you determine that? Because you want that to be the case?
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I’m sure that the British and Russians, who also felt it was their place to tell them what was good for them, felt they had plenty of friends there. As long as we have all of the guns and firepower there, I’m sure our friends will be plentiful. If they are so happy to have us there, how come we can’t seem to keep pacified areas of the country peaceful after we leave them?
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We need to get over the idea of American exceptionalism in EVERYTHING we try.
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Our answer isn’t automatically the BEST answer to EVERYTHING in the world. We’re going to have to let them make their own decisions, sooner or later. Any government selected because WE like it will be suspect to the population. We like Chalabi but they consider him a corrupt cretin.
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Once again, I ask the question- how would WE like a foreign army on our soil, even one that was there “for our own good”?

Yeah, sorry, Exiled. Point taken.
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Sometimes I stick with an argument/discussion LONG after its “shelf life” has passed.

afguy, I know that some egregious, costly mistakes were made in this war, and the possibility still exists that everything will fall apart.
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However, be careful of espousing ‘moral relativism’. In some ways we have to respect differences between cultures, but there are some things we cannot accept.
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For example, using an argument based on moral relativism, one might say that the Nazi’s persecution of Jews was simply an aspect of German culture and should not be judged by someone from outside of Germany.
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You claim and accept that in Iraq, dictatorship is just part of their “strongman” culture, but that culture exists everywhere people are ruled by force. Dictatorship itself fosters a predatory relationship between it’s subjects. Men at every rank rule their inferiors arbitrarily and with impunity.
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If we accept this, we are abandoning our understanding of human rights in favor of state’s rights. If we allow this we are not only perpetuating real harm to others, but we are also putting our own way of life in danger. When a dictatorship falls in favor of democracy, it means a better future for everyone.

Well Mr. Casey let me tell you why you got such a problem with suicides in the army now! We are not fighting a war against foregin enemies over here in Iraq but never the less we are fighting against our own people. The people who were suppose to be our comrades and our NCO’s and our Superior Officers. They have nothing better to do than pick on soldiers. Actually is a matter of fact we just had a soldier the other day blow her brains out because she could not handle the stress her own unit was putting her through. I can not believe this is how soldiers are treated who volunteer to give up their lives, families and freedom for this!!! Ill tell you the main problem….Promoting ones who do not deserve it…but ones who are sleeping with a higher ranking or best friends with a higher ranking or neighbors with a higher ranking. Thats what this Army is all about now. It has nothing to do with excellence anymore so you got people who could care less about their soldiers because they did not earn what they wear on their uniform as their so called rank. Something needs to change here because this is out of control over here. All people talk about is deployment girlfriends and deployment boyfriends and what happens in Iraq stays in Iraq. All kinds of infidelity going on and the loved ones at home taking care of everything have no clue. I am married and my husband is here and we cant even be together because our unit is so jelous but yet its ok for them to go sleep with the private they work with how pathetic. I cant wait til the day I am out of the military and I wont look back because this is for the birds! Hope I enlightened America on why our soldiers are committing suicide and hope to write a book when I get home from Iraq all about our army.

Response to 6.20 Afguy:
It will be very long, tedious and expensive.
Democracy is not the hardest concept to teach the public. Getting government officials to lean how to restrain themselves will take some work.
After the Second World War ended, it took ten years of occupation of Germany and Japan, neither of whom had had much more than constitutional monarchies in their past.
So, ten years after the Iraqi insurgency totally dies down we can bring the last soldier back and, maybe, ten years after that, since Iraq was never a developed economy, we can stop sending money to their redevelopment.
Not doing so would mean future wars.
It is an incredible mess to clean up.

OK, guys, one more shot and I’ll let this go (I promise, Exiled…)
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WHICH version of “Democracy” do we try to sell to them?

The “one man, one vote” version those visionaries set up 250 years ago… or our present “every man has a vote, but every corporation has a lobbbyist AND a seat at the table!” version. They probably think they could teach us a thing or two about legalized corruption.
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Want to show them how to set up a legislative model? Right now, WE have a majority who can’t pass legislation, and the CURRENT spectacle of ONE senile old coot virtually shutting down the process because of “gentleman’s rules” and “comity”. After they looked up “comity” in their dictionary, I’m sure an Iraqi would go out and find about 3 feet of fine-grained “comity aide” somewhere, come back inside, and have a spirited “discussion” with Sen. Bunning. Then sit back down and wonder what the fuss was about.
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How about our being a nation of laws and “every man is answerable to the law of the land”? I take it we’ll leave out the part about Gitmo, “black sites”, and the fact that we couldn’t even convict a bunch of yahoos who went on a shooting rampage in broad daylight, killing 17. Don’t mention Jamie Lee Jones, either.
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Financial markets and “free market” capitalism? See recent history. What could we possibly “tell” them that they would be willing to listen to on THAT subject?
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Health care on OUR terms? They’re already dying there… we want to bankrupt them further?
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Here would be a good Iraqi response: you’ve been working on this model exclusively for 250+ years and THIS is the best you can get it to work? We agree that it looks good “on paper” but there has to be a flaw somewhere; otherwise, you’d have it working better by now. Come back and talk to us when you have a better “working model”. Your present one sucks more than just a little. At least WE KNOW we’re screwed up right now.
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We WILL have something for them down the road, but, right now, we are such a raging ball of hypocrisy and tunnel vision, no one’s REALLY “listening” to our words.

Afguy,
Many, including those who have served (as far as I know) just want to see a fair government that works before we leave so that we will all know that it is will be improbable for the Iraqis to seek revenge against us and, instead, be thankful the help we will have given them.
I have digressed a great deal on this blog, but, KBR and other matters are for another time.

patrick,
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The Iraqi people (and the Iranians, for that matter) LIKE American people. It’s our foreign policy toward them and others they can’t stand.
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If we leave and allow the folderol to die down, we will be able to offer constructive aid to them.
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Look at South Vietnam. When we pulled out, it was supposed to signal the end of all civilization as we knew it. They’re a trading partner now.
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Time heals…

Afguy,
I think we are annoying ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY who is reading this except one another and I KNOW I should not continue a side point like this but, I do disagree.

When we left Vietnam, the communists had far, far better healthcare, childcare, food for the sick and injured, homes for the homeless, police, prisons and national guard-like soldiers than they did before the war began. (Obviously it had none of those things anywhere near as good as we had here then or now – even if all here can be improved on all of those). Vietnam was communist and had no history of backing terrorism.
(Yes, those schools were communist propaganda factories more than places to learn – I am not calling it good compared to the West at all.)
Vietnam had a long history of wars with China and were Marxist Leninist rather than Marxist Maoists (a difference seen important by communists at the time) and was close to the Soviet Union and still was antagonistic after becoming communist with China as well (the Maoist vs Leninist thing).
After the Soviet Union fell, Vietnam had no allies. It could have broken tradition and reached out to China. After Richard Nixon, however, China was closer to the US in diplomacy than it was with the Soviet Union.
So, Vietnam, also discovering that Communism had a short shelf life before it resulted in long lines of people waiting for goods that weren’t there, black markets and many other problems, they reached out to the US and let by gones be by gones.

Iraq is a mixture of two types of Muslims and two major ethnic groups. They may side with fellow Shiite Iran, who are Persian, not Arabian (I am not sure of that difference) other Arabian countries which are Sunni or just have fights among themselves for decades to come.

It is highly dissimilar, but, Vietnam was interesting considering we didn’t end up having them as an enemy for too long (twenty years after the war).

You know, I thought about this today, and I retract my apology to Mr. Klein about accusing him of not supporting the troops. Allow me to let you in on a little secret that I’ve been reluctant to disclose….I’M A TROOP, and I don’t feel supported by this garbage. People in this country generally do a good job of “talking the talk” when it comes to supporting the troops (“Oh, of course I support them…see that yellow ribbon on my car?”), but then they are turning around and using our body counts for their political gain. Much of the good work that was done in Iraq was ignored by the media, or at least underreported compared to body counts and scandals. The 99% of the troops who were accomplishing thankless missions while not getting killed and generally just doing a good job garnered about 5% of the headlines, while the remaining 95% of the headlines have been focused on deaths and prison scandals.

But the thing that leaves us feeling very unsupported is when bloggers and blowhards are using our body counts and suicide statistics to go on their political rants against the Bush administration, neo-conservatives, etc. These pseudointellectuals have generally seemed overeager to report on our deaths, almost giddy at times and infused with a heightened sense of confidence in their partisan attacks. It gives the impression that they REALLY only care about the troops when we die, so that they can have some fodder to use in their political arguments. You want to attack the right-wingers for leading us to war? Fine…but make arguments that it destabilized the region, lowered our standing in the world, was driven by machismo, cost trillions of dollars, etc. The only thing that should ever be said about our body counts and suicidie statistics is an expression of sympathy and condolences. Our blood should never be used matter-of-factly to launch into a petty partisan tirade, as was done here and far too many other places.

Dave,
We, definitely including me, have gone on as usual when debating things.
I said before I was a medical PDQ, but, I guess if I weren’t, I would probably find all of this inconsiderate.

Like many things, we only find out the worst, not the good or the average things about your lives and, honestly never will know what it is like to be a soldier.

Forgive our ignorance for going about our regular debates on this, which really is, a soldier’s topic.

Dear Christian Fighters,
Please don’t waste your precious life without meaning! If you are a suicide please take out some enemies with you, same as they do to us. God sacrificed his only son Jesus Christ to purify us and our sacrifice to God is not a sin when we kill his enemies.
God bless you and your families

You know, I came here to do a report for school on the military suicides within the military (considering they are the highest they have ever been). I’m a soldier, and I’m getting ready to deploy again. You all are so busy arguing over who’s right and wrong, and who can sound more intelligent in their responses that you have missed the entire point. Whether the war is right or wrong is an argument of the past. We are there. The decision has been made. Deal with it and move forward. Everyone b*tching about it does nothing. Have any of you formulated a formal analysis of the consequences of withdrawing our forces now that the chain of events has already been put into motion? Can you tell me the long term and short term effects that will have on the world and the us, or the people over there? Can you look at that objectively and without partisan, or personal feelings involved? I’ve been over there. I’ve seen the people who don’t like us. More importantly I’ve seen the people who look at us with that grateful and hopeful look in their eyes. Hope. Hope for a better future, for a future period. That is what we have given them, and we’re taking out some bad guys who hate us in the process. What more do you want? As far as actual goals accomplished we have done more in this war than in any other. The difference is in this war everyone who things that their tainted opinion makes a damn bit of difference, are able to spread their dissent like wildfire with today’s technology. As far as the troops go? Deployment is stressful, sure. Being away from your family sucks. Being in garrison is more stressful. More troops commit suicide when they get back and have to deal with all the bullcrap here. Being over there is a stress relief sometimes. The stresses on soldiers when we are in garrison are a LOT worse than over there. Even when we are back, we’re gone, and that’s almost worse for those of us that have families. Focus on the actual problem, and don’t just use this as a forum for your opinions to be heard. I gotta go pack my stuff now. By all means though, keep arguing about petty stuff while I’m over there, what you’re doing with your life is so much more “meaningful.”

~Moderately pissed off soldier

Brilliant, just what I needed to know, thank you!

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