And Speaking of Reconciliation…

There really isn’t much downside to the Republicans for lying though. NPR & you may point it out, but this will be the talking point on FOx, talk radio, the Moonie Times, the weekly standard and it will be repeated thousands of times. Millions more people will hear the lie, then the truth.
.
That’s just the way it is.

Actually the single fact that the R in COBRA stands for reconciliation (which I did not know) is more powerful than any long winded explanation about obstruction or up-or-down votes. Anybody who has experience with COBRA knows that its a good thing and is extremely important to the people who need it. And in today’s economic climate, many more people are familiar with it than at any other time in history.

Hopefully this post will result it lots o’ links.

Just realized that I should add an update pointing out that in 1985, Ronald Reagan was President and the Senate was Republican.

I’m hoping that the ulterior purpose of the summit tomorrow is to demonstrate conclusively that the Republican party is simply not serious about doing the public’s business. Use reconciliation for EVERYTHING, and screw these petulant clowns.

The Republicans believe that we can solve the health care issue by tax cuts for the rich, reducing the capital gains tax, and bombing Iran.
.
It’s foolproof.

And the Republicans are also getting it wrong when they say the entire health care bill is going to e passed via reconciliation. An approved Senate health bill is already on the table; reconciliation is only necessary for the “fixes” outlined by the president in his proposal.

http://www.political-buzz.com/

While you are correct Karen that COBRA was passed through reconciliation, you fail to also point out that this bill was ONE simple BUDGET change. Not a 2000+ bill which affects over 16% of the GDP. A far cry from “simply using reconciliation” as the way to pass this landmark bill. Parts of the bill taken separately could be passed under reconciliation, but the vast majority of the new regulations contained within the Obama, Pelosi, Reid Health Care Reform Bill do not have anything to do with the budget. That is the point that Republicans have made during any debate over the use or non-use of reconciliation. The bill would need to be torn apart and passed in pieces, not as one huge sweeping reform bill.
.
Keyword: BUDGET
.

“In response, at the start of the new Congress in 2007, the House and Senate formally adopted rules to restore a fiscal discipline standard to the reconciliation process by barring the process from being used for bills that would increase deficits and debt. If the reconciliation process is used in coming weeks for health reform legislation, that legislation will need to adhere to this standard — rather than to continue the sharp departure from it that the 2001 and 2003 reconciliation bills made.”

.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3059
.

SUMMARY OF THE BYRD RULE
Under the Byrd rule, the Senate is prohibited from considering extraneous matter as part of a reconciliation bill or resolution or conference report thereon. The definition of what constitutes “extraneous matter” is set forth in the Budget Act; however, the term remains subject to considerable interpretation by the presiding officer (who relies on the Senate Parliamentarian). The Byrd rule is enforced when a Senator raises a point of order during consideration of a reconciliation bill or conference report. If the point of order is sustained, the offending title, provision or amendment is deemed stricken unless its proponent can muster a 3/5 (60) Senate majority vote to waive the rule.

.
http://www.rules.house.gov/Archives/byrd_rule.htm
.
If a Point of Order is entered while a bill is being debated or brought to the floor, then the “Chair” has the responsibility to “rule” on the point of order. If the Senator who uses Point of Order to object disagrees, then he/she can call for a vote on the rules to see if a majority (60 votes) agree with the Chair.
.
In my mind that is why there are so many Democrats and Republicans who are against this process to pass Health Care Reform. It exposes them to votes that they know they must up-hold through the rules. It will show how corrupt the process actually is, and they risk major fallout with their constituents back at home.
.
Then through reconciliation, the bill may pass, but it will also be limited in time. In a couple years perhaps the entire bill will come back up for another vote to extend it, or it simply dies. (2002/2003 Bush Tax Cuts example). Also, many amendments can be offered during the time of debate. This could also limit the scope and practice of the bill eventually passed. Many pundents are saying the House does not have the votes to pass a reconciliation bill from the Senate. Estimates run anywhere from 190 to 213 votes for the bill. Nancy simply does not have the votes to pass it in the House through reconciliation.

Thanks should go to Karen and Julie for at least making and attempt to let people know that they are being misinformed. A lot of what passes for debate on a daily basis in this country is I’m afraid more like what I am posting below from over at Digby’s place.
,
Keep in mind that Chris Matthews makes more than 5 million a year to be this dumb about processes its his job to know.
.
Grayson: Why do you think they can’t use reconciliation?
.
Matthews: Because you talk to any one of these Senators. Have you talked to any of them lately? And what do you think they’ll tell you?
.
Grayson: What do you think, I’m their confessor?
.
Matthews: Have you ever called up a Democratic Senator and said why don’t you do this by reconciliation?
.
Grayson: What makes you think they’re not going to do it? What do you know that I don’t know?
.
Matthews: Because they refuse to do it because they cannot get past the filibuster rule. The United States Senate is different from the House.You’re allowed to talk as long as you want in the Senate. Unless you get cloture.
.
Grayson: Reconciliation is 51 votes not 60 votes.
.
Matthews: You can’t create a program through reconciliation! Congressman just name me the program that’s ever been created through reconciliation!
.
Grayson: Tax cuts for the rich!
.
Matthews: That’s not a program. Under reconciliation you’re allowed to do two things. Change fiscal numbers, raise taxes or cut spending.
.
Grayson: You’re saying that. You don’t know that. Nobody else thinks that.
.
Matthews: I just spent three years in the Senate budget committee when I was a kid and you can’t do it. By the way, have you asked any Senator this question? This plan you have?
.
Grayson: I’m in the other place, I’m in the House.
.
Matthews: I know, that’s why you’re not in the senate
.
Grayson: Oh that’s why I’m not in the Senate…
.
Matthews: This is netroots talk. This is outsider talk and you’re an elected official and you know you can’t do it. You are pandering to the netroots right now. I know what you’re doing.
.
Grayson: You are wrong. This is something we talk about with our leadership in our caucus meetings every week! …
.
Matthews: …I know what I’m talking about and you ask anybody in the Senate right now. Go call the Senate legislative counsel’s office and ask him if you can do this. Go ask the parliamentarian is you can do this. You haven’t bothered to do that.
.
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/

“It also remains unclear whether Democrats can even pull it off, given the strict rules governing bills passed through reconciliation, which requires the entire legislation — down to a single line — to have an direct impact on the federal budget. Simple policy changes, such as the president’s new proposal to establish a federal review board on insurance rates, are unlikely to survive.”

.
Even Carrie Bundoff-Brown agrees with me, from your previous thread.
.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0210/33398.html#ixzz0gRB7hqoO
.
It is all political posturing by the Democrats. Puffing their chests out like peacocks, but in the end they will pick up all their toys and simply say to the far left extremists who are badgering them to pass “something”, no matter how bad it really is, “we tried”.
.
You see Karen, it is not about the people who you fully forget about. A bad bill is still a bad bill. This is what the American People have said about the proposed bill.
.
Republicans have agreed with the People that this is a bad bill, and should be stopped so that real debate and real measures can be passed to create real reform.
.
The Democrats with Barack Obama at the helm have failed to pass their socialist agenda on Healthcare Reform. Now they are mad. They want something to show for their efforts that they can tout during the up-coming elections. Without “something”, they can only claim defeat of their agenda. Not a winning strategy when they want to be re-elected in November.
.
Those Representatives and Senators know full well how the American People feel about this bill now as it has been exposed over and over for the past year. They know the majority of the voters are against it. They know by voting for this bill they are at major risk of not being re-elected. Period.
.

I watched this live, and Tweety was hilarious.

Some on the left are saying “pass anything we can”, others aren’t.
.
We’re not monolithic on this, there are some pretty sharp divisions.
.
Nobody on our side loves this bill.
.
Some liberals are telling other liberals “But if we don’t do something, thousands more people will die without insurance!“.
.
Other liberals are saying back “So even if the bill further empowers the profiteers to deny care and kill people, we still have to pass it, otherwise they’ll kill more people? Is this how we best negotiate with those holding our people hostage?”
.
The Republicans can’t say on the one hand “We’ve got a plan for the government to step in to regulate industry” and on the other “The government needs to end regulation of industry”, and still have any credible alternative.
.
In the absence of an alternative, that means lots of people think something is better than nothing. I don’t, many others don’t, but many do.

Rusty: The overall bill has already passed the Senate. If the House passes the exact same bill, then the reconciliation bill becomes a set of relatively minor changes to that.

Other news reporting has said Nancy does not have the votes to pass the Senate bill as written. So you believe and know from speaking with House Representatives that there are enough votes to pass the Senate bill? Who are the Representatives who have committed to voting “Yes” for this bill, if so? If you haven’t done the research, then you are simply bloviating.

I do not know that. Congressional leadership sources tell me, however, that the changes that Obama made to the Cadillac tax have gone a long way toward solving the problems that a lot of House members have with the bill. Whether that is enough to get it over the line is the big question right now.

Also, if you have ever watched a big and close congressional vote (for instance, the Republican passage of the Medicare prescription drug bill), you will know that there is a lot of arm-twisting at the last minute, so the number of people publicly “committed” at the moment is not the question.

Thanks for responding stuart.
.
Let’s take another example then. Outside of this bill as an example of something that is “bad” versus relooking at it, and coming up with a different bill that is “good”.
.
Take for example the recent problem which Toyota has with their cars. They have made many statements which they claim are the cause of the problem. They have proposed to “fix” the problems, but there is still major questions as to whether or not the problem is what Toyota has identified or not.
.
Many people believe it is in the electronics of the car that causes the sudden acceleration, which in some cases results in accidents and death of passengers.
.
Now Toyota can choose to fix the real cause or problem, or they can tell people to “simply take the floor mat out”.
.
Until Toyota really investigates this, and comes up with a viable solution, many people are at risk of dying from defective parts in their cars.
.
Is this a solution stuart? Or does the problem really still exist, but Toyota refuses to consider other options?
.
I appreciate that you do not favor or agree with this bill. That you have done extensive research and review of the bill and agree with me and many others that this specific bill for Health Care Reform is not what is needed. That the problem is with cost of health care, which directly impacts on the cost of health care insurance and the real reason why so many people cannot afford insurance.
.
A bad bill is still a bad bill no matter how you try to parcel it out. The same way the defects in the Toyota cars are bad, and they need to be fixed. Toyota stands to loose much in consumer confidence. I believe Democrats stand to loose much in voter confidence by passing a bad bill. At this point the purpose of passing this bad bill is simply to lay claim during some up-coming election, “hey, vote for me, I helped pass health care reform”.

Yep. Fox News has already been calling reconciliation “the nuclear option” as if it has never been used before.
.
I really doubt any of their viewers watch NPR, or read Time, or absorb any other form of media that has not been pre-approved as properly patriotically correct.

Foolproof, and fool approved.

“If you haven’t done the research, then you are simply bloviating.”
.
I’m assuming rusty’s computer exploded from the irony of his typing that.

“The Republicans believe that we can solve the health care issue by tax cuts for the rich, reducing the capital gains tax, and bombing Iran.”

.
Whereas, Democrats believe we can tax the middle class, spend like drunken sailors and everything will be rosey. Tax and spend Democrats want bigger Government. More control over individual freedoms with the eventual goal to eliminate individual freedom and replace it with “what is good for the community” or collective. A purely socialist ideal.
.
Enjoy!! Thankfully the majority of Americans disagree with the new Democrat policies of Barack “I am a socialist at heart” Obama. Now we simply need to take away his majority in the House and Senate to stop his insanity.

kevin: FTW!

Was it “Congressional” sources or SEIU sources Karen? Come on now, be truthful.

More specific: Aides to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, including her Communications Director Brendan Daly.

And, by the way, Rusty, I don’t like what you are implying here. I don’t lie.

Whereas, Republicans believe we can give tax cuts to the wealthiest in a time of war, spend like drunken sailors and everything will be rosey. Tax cut and spend Republicans have given us bigger Government.
..
Fixed that for ya.

In fact, Rusty, I would like an apology for that comment, which went completely over the line. If I do not receive one, I will take that as an indication that all future interaction with you is not worth my time. I try to show our commenters the kind of respect that you have not given me here. This is a very serious charge that you are making.

So a Democratic HCR bill that the CBO said would reduce the deficit by $127 billion is “spending like a drunken sailor,” but the Republican Medicare Part D legislation that is estimated to add another $580 billion to the deficit, and the tax cuts for the rich that will add another $850 billion to the deficit if they’re left in place, that’s “fiscal responsibility”?
.
You have an, uh, interesting world view.

Here is my straw poll breakdown of the votes Nancy has. The Cadillac provision is somewhat important, but the really BIG issue was clearly brought to the light of the House by Rep Stupak.
.
His language is NOT in the bill from the Senate. These Reps numbering 38 in total will not vote for the Senate bill.
.
To top it off, there have been 6 vacancies on the Democrat side through death of Murtha, and 5 other Reps who have resigned since the last House vote.
.
Simply math for you Karen.
.
Stupak votes – 38
Plus retired and vacant seats since voting on the last bill – 6
Total votes now lost to Nancy = 44
Total Dems – 256 less 44 equals 212
.
Nancy does not have the votes. This is all a ploy by the Democrats with Obama at the lead to show Kabuki Theatrics, and then walk away from it all. Nothing more, nothing less.
.
When you decide to do some real reporting for a change, then perhaps I will read what you write. Until then it is nothing but pure hackery. Nothing more, nothing less.

While reconciliation may have been used any number of times to pass legislation including COBRA, none were the size and consequence to our overall economy as any of these HC bills will be (16% of GDP).

No one here or in Congress can say with any degree of certainty that this bill will not balloon the deficit, kill jobs and ultimately force an individual to lose control of his.her health care.

Anyone who says otherwise is a liar or a fool and quite possibly both.

Frankly Karen, just as Joe Klein with TIME.com’s blessing called “most Americans stupid”. Your claim that I called you a liar is more of the same.
.
I didn’t call you a liar, and if I would call you a liar or accuse you of lying I would simply write it as such. I questioned your sources. You provided your source.
.
I do not see any apology needed. And, if you choose not to respond to any of my comments in the future, so be it. This site is nothing but regurgitation of Democrat talking points anyways.

Be careful, freeinpa. Questioning or accusing someone of something around here may land you on the “Do not comment back to them list”.

Right, because telling someone they should “be truthful” is completely different from telling them that they are not being truthful.
.
Go ahead and ignore Karen and the rest of us, rusty. We all generally ignore you.

Rusty:

I am too old to care and too big to hide.Liberals like to blather on with impunity. They are still operating under the assumption that Obama is a centrist and people love higher taxes and higher deficits

Obama & Dems in 2005: 51 Vote ‘Nuclear Option’ Is ‘Arrogant’ Power Grab Against the Founder’s Intent

What a difference a few years make

You don’t know what you’re talking about.
.
What Trent Lott called the “nuclear option” in 2005 was not reconciliation. It was a proposed scheme to get around the Democratic blocking of judicial nominees through a revision of Senate Rule 22.
.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_02/022340.php
.
That never happened, and likely never will. Reconciliation has happened in the past, and indeed, happened in the same Congress that talked about the “nuclear option” but never pulled the trigger on it, and it will likely will happen again.
.
I know it’s difficult for you, but try to get your facts straight.

Rustydog:
.
If you’re accusing Tumulty of being a union shill, you owe her an apology. That’s just as scurrilous an accusation as Paul Lukasiak’s slandering that she’s a Wellpoint shill.
.
If you’re not, and she’s misunderstood you, then maybe you might want to just be polite about it, and tell her you’re sorry she misunderstood you, but that no, you weren’t calling her a liar who knowingly relays falsehoods on behalf of the SEIU.
.
Don’t you think that would be the best response, or is your pride in the way of being civil about these things?

Noone can say with empirical certainty that the bill won’t cause a massive Tsunami to strike the Baja coast, either.
.
Why don’t you confine your arguments to what is actually knowable, like whether the bill will lower the average price of an MRI, or whether insurers will continue to have the prerogative to deny claims, or whether the bill subsidizes the less-well-off primarily by using the tax-dollars of the little-bit-more-well-off (instead of the idle rich)?

Karen: Can I interest you in a dining room table?

…it’s a bit wobbly, creaky, and has only one leg to stand on, but makes a great “conversation” piece…

Rustydog:
.
I’m on my Democrats for dissembling about the fact that the bill doesn’t comprehensively address cost, where are you on Republicans?
.
Is there some contingent of Republicans that are talking about the sky-high cost of health care resulting from the sky-high floors set by Medicare and Medicaid somewhere?
.
Where are they, Rustydog? Where are you taking them to task if they aren’t?

Commenters:
.
It looks like Jay Rockefeller has proved my conjecture about his arm being twisted being the power behind his not supporting the House’s public option in the Senate to be completely wrong: link to “Weak Public Option Has No Value”
.
Rockefeller’s making the Wyden argument against the symbolic nature of the House’s public option, and he’s completely right.
.
His rationale seems to vindicate him, and my accusations of a complete and despicable reversal seem to be…umm, absolutely false.

It is surprising that the process in Congress is called “reconciliation” because that is exactly what our country needs at this critical moment in history.
The nasty rhetoric on both sides of the aisle must stop and our Congressmen should put aside their differences, which are mostly about money, and come together and do something good for America. If this bill passes Congress and goes to President Obama, we call all be proud to be Americans again.

“Why don’t you confine your arguments to what is actually knowable, like whether the bill…”
.
I’m going with…because they’re brainwashed partisan idiots?

Serious business. Do you think a limited public option, like the House plan, would likely to expand over time or remain relatively small over the long run?

Rusty: while I disagree with the point being made by free here, it is in no way equivalent in tone or in casting aspersion on KT or anyone else here as was the clear import of your earlier. The fact that you choose to try to draw a craze equivalence show’s you’ll rather cover up than admit that you were wrong and that your earlier suggestion was uncalled for. This shows that you’re both arrogant, and incapable of admitting wrong.
.
KT has been particularly engaging and very informative on the HCR issue. Even though her postings definitely suggests (at least to me) that she would rather see the HCR go through, you can disagree with that position without being a pompous ass. I guess for you, that recommendation is way too late ….

…wow, way to go rusty. No love for Karen again (or ever)? This reminds me of “Soylent Green.” People are NOT furniture.

…whereas the republicans have given us bigger, dumber government.

errata:
… earlier post, instead of … earlier.
.
…crazy equivalence, instead of …craze equivalence.
.
Pardon the mistakes, I’m really irked by uncouth jerks

Come on stuart you are not buying that line are you? Yesterday it was because they didn’t have the votes, today he says it is a watered down PO, no specifics mind you. But it is ok to pass a completely watered down Health Care Bill?

“Until then it is nothing but pure hackery. Nothing more, nothing less.”
..
Wow. Change “hackery” to trollery and it perfectly describes 99% of your postings Rusty.
..
Congrats! You are a complete and utter a$$hat!

KT: I think in your effort to engage all, you give people like rusty and his kind way too much credit ….. you need to draw the line somewhere to demarcate sincere, informed disagreement on issues and uncouth ramblings of dolts …., rusty and his kind would not fall on the sane side of that line by a long shot.

likely to expand over time or remain relatively small over the long run?
.
Remain pitifully small, especially if it’s not a part of the House’s proposed national exchange, which was shot down in favor of the Senate’s bullsh*t state-by-state exchanges.
.
Unless a public plan can take advantage of Medicare provider rates and tie-in to Medicare acceptance (unless a provider accepts public option insurance, they don’t get Medicare patients), and is a nationally regulated plan whose availability is set relatively transparently at the Federal level, it would most likely remain small, inefficient, unaffordable and inaccessible enough to eventually kill.
.
Maybe some people on the House side genuinely believe that this is the Trojan Horse for single-payer, and the foot in the door to real health care reform, but it looks like just enough wasteful symbolism to prove to ordinary people that liberals’ big ideas are always failures when implemented.

stuart zechman:
.
Here…
.
http://www.house.gov/ryan/PCA/
.
Here…
.
http://www.house.gov/ryan/PCA/
.
and Here…
.
http://www.house.gov/ryan/PCA/
.
In summary the plan breaks down as such, Mr Zechman.
.

“• Creates State Health Insurance Exchanges to give Americans a one‐stop marketplace to compare different
health insurance policies and select the one that meets their unique needs
• Gives Americans the same standard health benefits as Members of Congress, so all Americans have a wide range
of choices
• Protects the most vulnerable Americans to ensure that no individual would be turned down by a participating
Exchange insurers based on age or health
• Creates a non‐profit, independent board to risk adjust among participating insurance companies to penalize
companies that “cherry pick” health patients and reward insurers that encourage prevention/wellness and cover
patients with pre‐existing conditions
• Helps States expand coverage through auto‐enrollment at state and medical points of service, for individuals
who do not select a plan at the beginning of the year
• Gives states the ability to band together in regional pooling arrangements, as well as the creation of robust high
risk pools, reinsurance markets, or risk adjustment mechanisms to cover those deemed ‘uninsurable’

.
And, the CBO has scored it as not costing tax payers a dime in any new taxes.
.
The CBO said this about the “Roadmap” in their letter back to Mr Ryan.
.

“Effects of the Roadmap on the Economy
The lower budget deficits under your proposal would result in much less federal debt than under the alternative fiscal scenario and thereby a much more favorable macroeconomic outlook. In addition to evaluating the effects of the proposal on Social
Security, Medicare, Medicaid, budget deficits, and government debt, CBO also examined
how the smaller deficits produced by the proposal would affect the economy, assuming that such effects would play out as they have in the past.”

.
You see Mr Zechman, there are alternatives and different ways to acheive successful reforms. This is what is needed, and why debate needs to continue on health care reform.
.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/108xx/doc10851/01-27-Ryan-Roadmap-Letter.pdf

Amen.

Come on stuart you are not buying that line are you?
.
Well, I don’t put a lot of faith in what politicians say, but that line has too much merit and the facts on its side to discount.
.
The weak public option from the House isn’t worth fighting for, just as the health insurance reform from the Senate isn’t worth fighting for, unless both can be rationally considered a viable foot in the door for real reform that makes the vast majority of Americans’ lives better as a result.
.
…and, if it is somehow truly a foot in the door, then we have to deal with the fact that our representatives lied to the American people and each other about the true nature of what they’ve done, which is another problem to live down…

Hang in there, KT, my sympathies. Being nice here just doesn’t work out.

Well there you go stuart. It is all BS coming from Rockefeller. He is talking from both sides of his mouth. So in reality what do we have, or what are we getting? A watered down bill that they hope to improve with reconciliation? Is that what we are hearing? I think that is one of the lines. What do they hope to Change? A National exchange? A puiblic Option? Something tied to Medicare? What?
.
stuart, I think what we have to face is that the Democratic Party is not for the PO, period. Smoke and mirrors.

“…and, if it is somehow truly a foot in the door, then we have to deal with the fact that our representatives lied to the American people and each other about the true nature of what they’ve done…”
.
No. Welcome to Rick’s Place.

SZ

“Why don’t you confine your arguments to what is actually knowable, like whether the bill will lower the average price of an MRI, or whether insurers will continue to have the prerogative to deny claims, or whether the bill subsidizes the less-well-off primarily by using the tax-dollars of the little-bit-more-well-off (instead of the idle rich)?”

I suggest you do the same. You have NO way of knowing what this bill will do for costs. It has already been established that taxes will rise and while it is great rhetoric to “tax the rich”, the math cannot support other not being taxed or deficits rising. EVERY government program has cost multiples more than any estimate, that is a fact. This one will be no different.

For you to request others stick to what is known while you offer liberal talking points as fact is foolish and disingenuous.
=

An SherperdWrong you prove once again you are nothing but a burden to society

“The weak public option from the House isn’t worth fighting for, just as the health insurance reform from the Senate isn’t worth fighting for, unless both can be rationally considered a viable foot in the door for real reform that makes the vast majority of Americans’ lives better as a result.”
..
SZ — I’ve read your arguments against the current bills for a long time. If neither is worth fighting for and no reform bill is passed, what exactly is the way forward on health care reform? I have yet to hear you articulate the plan to reform health care going forward if this attempt fails.
..
I have posted links to Nate Silver’s commentary regarding health care reform before and, paraphrasing his argument, he articulated the case for passing the current bill and making improvements to it over time.
..
Do you feel that this is not possible or unlikely to happen?
..
How exactly will health care reform efforts be better in the future, especially if this nihilistic Repubs take over one or both branches of Congress in the future?
..
I fail to see how not passing the bill furthers efforts to reform our health care system.

“our Congressmen should put aside their differences, which are mostly about money, and come together and do something good for America”

Yes it is mostly about money and the liberals have no respect for other people’s money. There is no project or cause (other than national defense) that liberals won’t spend other people’ s money. To assume that this will cut costs lower deficits and our national debt and not condemn our grand children to a miserable existence is delusional.

Rustydog:
.
I will look through those links for something from Republicans in the way of transparent, regular price scheduling for the entire health care market –something like what the Federal Reserve does for interest rates, the price of money– but I don’t immediately see what you’re talking about.
.
All I’m getting from this is that you’ve swapped the word “cost” from costing insurers to costing tax-payers, nothing about price inflation.

Yes, the monolithic liberals and their spending, woe is America! I realize you are too ideologically biased to actually remember and learn from history but some facts are inescapable such as the wanton spending of the previous Republican administrations under Reagan, HW and W. They are primarily responsible tor the increase in the national debt but don’t let that fact get in the way of your ignorant ranting.

“While reconciliation may have been used any number of times to pass legislation including COBRA, none were the size and consequence to our overall economy as any of these HC bills will be (16% of GDP).”

The bill already passed the Senate with a supermajority. If the House passes the Senate bill as-is, what the Dems are talking about is a reconiliation bill that will include fixes – eg, getting rid of the Nelson/Landrieu deals, minor increases in subsidies, tweaks to the “Cadillac” tax. They are not passing the entire reform via reconciliation and you know it. Heck, they’re not even going to put the weak House public option in there.

“They are still operating under the assumption that Obama is a centrist and people love higher taxes and higher deficits.”

Do you seriously believe that Obama is some radical socialist commie after watching his first year as president? Come on, be honest. You can think this healthcare bill stinks for any number of reasons but it is FAR from some socialist commie plan.

“…people love higher taxes and higher deficits.”

Yeah, liberals really believe that. Of course, I’d love to see all of those higher taxes that Obama has imposed so far. O wait, he and the Dems actually gave 95% of Americans a tax cut. Oh, they’re in the health care bill…but they aren’t. But they’re going to let the Bush tax cuts expire…but only for folks at the upper end of the income scale…which amounts to less than 5% of Americans. And those increased rates will only apply to income earned over $200k/$250k, which means most of that 5% won’t tak much of a hit.

Yes, the deficit has increased under Obama, just as it did under Bush..and Bush I, and Reagan, etc. And this healthcare bill is going to increase that deficit….except, um, the CBO actually says it will reduce the deficit.

Meant to be a reply to freep at 9.

diecash1:

I’ve read your arguments against the current bills for a long time.

You’re very patient, these arguments can be quite onerously repetitive.

If neither is worth fighting for and no reform bill is passed, what exactly is the way forward on health care reform? I have yet to hear you articulate the plan to reform health care going forward if this attempt fails.

I don’t have one, unfortunately.
.
All I know is that, if we were debating the prospect of passing child labor laws that dealt with the issue by
.
1) attempting to satisfy the demands of parents, by regulating child labor
.
2) attempting to satisfy the demands of industry, by mandating that children work, but only two days a week
.
, I wouldn’t care if I didn’t have a plan to pass child labor prohibition going forward. I would argue against that sort of legislation, even if there weren’t a clear path at the time to getting child labor prohibited. Something would not be better than nothing.

I have posted links to Nate Silver’s commentary regarding health care reform before and, paraphrasing his argument, he articulated the case for passing the current bill and making improvements to it over time.

I know, I’ve read his arguments, and I’ve considered them carefully, knowing that he’s a valuable voice.
.
I’ve read and carefully considered Ezra Klein’s position, too.
.
I disagree with these esteemed fellows, though, as I do (and many others do) upon occasion.
.
Both of them articulate a position, that Americans will see the benefits, and be better predisposed toward future expansion, with which I have fundamental disagreement. None of us believe that this bill solves the problem of health care, although we disagree about the extent to which it further degrades the system.
.
I am of the view that ineffective policy, i.e. policy that doesn’t clearly demonstrate its value to the vast majority of Americans on a regular basis, will be a significant liability going forward. The benefits this bill contains simply won’t be shared by most people, and the problems they face will remain. During hard economic times especially, there are a number of a certain kind of liberal that can comfort themselves in the belief that other people whom they don’t know are somehow better off than they would have been otherwise, but most folks aren’t like that –and loathe liberals for that kind of “save everyone but ourselves” thinking.
.
Ezra and Nate don’t see it that way. Their views are much more short term-oriented, though. They see this issue much more in terms of what other priorities Obama can get done in his second term, and not the longer term of what liberals can show the electorate about the viability of their ideas –ideas that are under relentless attack from the rightist wurlitzer every day.
.
These two see the thing in terms of passage of the bill being necessary simply to show Americans that they need not be terrified, and that’s a decent argument to make. My argument is that, once ordinary folks get done not feeling terrified, they won’t throw their arms up in the air joyously, saying

“We were scared, but we shouldn’t have been! The country isn’t crashing down around us! The sky isn’t falling! Hooray!”

, but will begin to ask

“What does this do for us? Why does my employer plan still cost me so much every year? If I’m not seeing any benefit, then who is, and why do they get something that I don’t? Is this another government program that benefits everybody but middle class people like me?“

, and we’ll be back to “Health care, not welfare” arguments that centrist Democrats will only be too happy to pimp on their way to getting elected in Arkansas.

Do you feel that this is not possible or unlikely to happen?

In an environment in which health care reform is subsidized private health insurance welfare to be repealed, instead of a strong public program to be strengthened, I think that the expansion of it is unlikely, unless it’s disastrous, Bush II Republican-style Medicare Part D stuff that can bring the whole edifice down.

How exactly will health care reform efforts be better in the future, especially if this nihilistic Repubs take over one or both branches of Congress in the future?

They won’t be better in the future, unless we elect better Democrats, and unless we stop the Democrats we have now from enacting bad policy that helps make liberalism into a dirty word again.

I fail to see how not passing the bill furthers efforts to reform our health care system.

That’s like saying

“I fail to see how not building levees in North Dakota furthers efforts to build levees in the Gulf Coast.”

Not screwing up now furthers our future efforts to do anything of value for the country.
.
Thanks for reading and considering this, diecash1.

It appears as though we will have to disagree on this point. I believe that failure to pass health care reform will be yet another sad chapter in the 100 year reform effort and it will likely lead to a major setback for the Democrats. I don’t believe that this setback will lead to electing better Democrats as you suggest (or hope for.) More likely, it will lead to more nihilist Republicans being elected and risk them pushing though something more akin to Paul Ryan’s “roadmap” and that would a poor result for a great many Americans.
..
While I often agree with your sentiment and you desire to elect “better” Democrats, I feel that your desires would likely lead to a shrinking of the Democratic party at this point in time. The bottom line is the Democrats need better messaging and stiffer spines.

“Ezra and Nate don’t see it that way. Their views are much more short term-oriented, though. They see this issue much more in terms of what other priorities Obama can get done in his second term, and not the longer term of what liberals can show the electorate about the viability of their ideas –ideas that are under relentless attack from the rightist wurlitzer every day.”
.
stuart but isn’t the public short term oriented? I do not think they give much care to what the liberals can show them. They want something done, they don’t care what, as long as it is something. No they aren’t happy about the Bill, but they are even more unhappy about no Bill. Things have to move.

“While I often agree with your sentiment and you desire to elect “better” Democrats, I feel that your desires would likely lead to a shrinking of the Democratic party at this point in time. The bottom line is the Democrats need better messaging and stiffer spines.”

.
And, this is yet again why most liberals define the current health care bill as a necessity. It is not about whether it is a good bill or a bad bill. Whether it will create an environment in change to the current system. It is simply to be a Democrat talking point to allow Democrats to be re-elected.
.
So sad. Sad that Democrats truly do not care about any reform, and as a group, really do not care what is at stake for the vast majority of Americans so long as they can call something a victory, or “mission accomplished”. We have already been through a period of 8 years that had this sort of mentality. Only to see it replaced by a like minded group of progressives. The only difference is whether there is an (R) or (D) after their name.
.
When people realize it is not about who is elected or who governs, only how they govern to make the people’s overall welfare better then we shall see effective government from those we elect. This is the message of the Tea Party Patriots. This is the goal going forward in the November elections.

Way to misconstrue what I said Rusty. While I think that this particular set of bills is less than the health care reform that I believe we need, it is, IMO, an improvement over the status quo. As such, I want it to be passed and subsequently improved upon. Furthermore, there are political realities attached to the health care reform debate, as Repubs well know. They are merely repeating Newt’s playbook of obstructionism while attempting to make the government appear inept in a naked attempt to curry favor with voters. Failure to pass this reform would be advantageous to the Repub cause which is why you, despite stating that you hope it gets passed, are currently wetting yourself at the thought of the bill’s passage.
..
You gave up the moral high ground long ago with your assorted wing nuttery so there is no chance that you’ll be able to reclaim it with the disingenuous argument you made above.

Nothing was “miscontrued” or taken out of context. Your words clearly speak for themselves diecash. “Wingnuttery” or not, you cannot defend what you said as nothing but pure ideological babble.

KT,
Unfortunately, the anonymity of the net allows some people to get away with saying things that they would never say to someone’s face (for fear of getting their noses broken). Many of these same people either don’t understand the difference between an argument and an insult, or they just don’t care. Some of the Ann Coulter Charm School graduates posting here at Swampland seem to revel in behaving as badly as possible.
.
I think that the majority of posters here try to behave like courteous adults, whether they agree with each other (and you) or not. I also think that the majority of the posters here genuinely appreciate the work you’ve done (particularly on the health care issue) and your willingness to periodically engage in dialog with us.
.
Please don’t let the behavior of one uncivil jacka$$ change that.

Karen: Can I interest you in a dining room table?
.
kbang,
.
Don’t sell it yet. Karen can still “use” the other corner. My head fits the dent on the other end just about perfectly now.
.
As long as she understands that it’s not a “useful conversation piece”.

KT,
One more comment on this: Good for you for standing up for yourself! It would have been easier to just ignore the rudeness, but calling it out may help to make this place a bit more civil.

One last word on the recent unpleasantness:
.
Guys, I have really tried to develop a thick skin, and I very much value our interaction in this space (which is why I’m here so often). All of us need our assumptions and preconceptions challenged on a regular basis, or we would never learn anything. I learn a lot here. I think it has made me a better journalist, in part because I have to defend my reporting and my analysis in real time. Back in the old days of, say, three years ago, the closest thing I got to real feedback was a letter here and there.
.
However, unlike most of you, I don’t get the luxury of anonymity in this endeavor. My reputation and that of my employer is on the line with every keystroke. I think that over the course of the three decades that I have spent as a reporter, I have developed a record of honesty and fair-mindedness. I may be wrong about an issue or a story, and have been — often. But it has never been out of a willful intent to deceive.
.
So I will continue to engage, as I hope you will. But please understand that there is a line here, and that when things get personal and baseless, I will reserve the right to take a step back. Let’s try to stick to the facts.

afguy! Good to see you!
.
Have the jumbo-sized Excedrin helped?
.
Have you been able to get the QWERTY marks removed from your forehead?
.
After a grueling week I figured you were due for some R&R, and then Karen took on being Speaker-to-Furniture.
.
I’m looking forward to tomorrow. Won’t get a chance to check in until late in the day, but I’m hoping that after all the fireworks this past week, the feeding may be down…

Karen, I came back here because I was going to thank you for posting this. When I heard it this morning, I thought it was very interesting and presented some facts that are not generally known – I certainly didn’t know all of them.
.
I was sorry that one of the resident commenters took out after you again, for no good reason and to no constructive purpose.
.
I very much appreciate your work and as someone who has been on Swampland since the very early days I think you have moved wonderfully into the new world of jounalism. You have become a real blogger and could hold your own with the best. In addition, we really appreciate your taking part in the comments. You have kept an excellent focus on health care reform. We don’t all agree all the time – for example, I disagree with Stuart that we should hope this bill doesn’t pass at all – but that sort of disagreement is an opinion based on facts, not based on assumptions, name calling, and repeating the same tired set of points over and over.
.
You have also kept a nice bit of humor here in the Swamp and that is appreciated as well. I’m taking it upon myself to speak for a lot of people who may not check back on this thread – thank you so much!

KT:

Let’s try to stick to the facts.

Yes, let’s all of us try to do more of that.
.
Thanks so much for this explanation, KT, it’s further evidence of your integrity as a blogger.

KT, thanks for your interaction. I occasionally tease you and Amy in “1000 words” but there’s no malice, unlike action above, or other times here like commenters wishing reporters to lose their jobs, etc. Those are uncalled for and I’m sorry to see them happen. Keep up your great work. I hope you post your own “1000 words” captions more often; they’re funny.

freeinpa: “the liberals have no respect for other people’s money.”

The only money the conservatives respect is their own–that’s why they keep lower their own tax rates while trying to figure out how to squeeze more out of the rest of us.

Makes you long for the good ol’ days when you were blogging from the Men’s Room during HRC’s 2008 primary campaign, doesn’t it!?!
.
Hang in there!

…KT and Hillary in the men’s room!? This will heal many wounds here. Links, please!!!

As a former Republican I have sadly come to the conclusion that the Republican Party has done more harm to this country in the last nine years than the Communist Party ever did.

kbang,
.
Thanks. The marks have faded and the scabs healed for the most part.
.
I’m off too for the rest of the week. HR notified me that I was going to lose vacation time unless I took it so I did.
.
My comments are down because a lot of what’s being talked about is just frustrating. I’ve never seen so much attention on the “visuals” and political “positioning” when, if you get down to it, the actual quality of what’s being produced is low-grade horsesh!t.
.
I’m hoping that they deliver good legislation from this. Otherwise, we are reduced to hoping that someone has the courage, at some unspecified later date, to pass a suitable fix to the present disaster.
.
I’m with those that believe that, if the Dem leadership & President REALLY wanted a public option, they would be pushing to put it in, rather than trying to read the political winds.
.
They just don’t seem to REALLY want to do this. But they want some sort of cover when they don’t, because I think they suspect it’s going to be grim for them afterward.
.
Sorry about the new dent in the furniture…

kbang (and KT), you’ve been here longer than me. Do you remember the links to the men’s room campaign you mentioned? I’ll bet there are other great campaign stories too (perhaps book worthy?). Certainly the campaign food diary post is a KT classic.

deconstructiva, Maybe Karen can find it when she’s not swamped with the hcr summit, but it may have been lost in the great Swamp crash.
.
One of the times KT was assigned to follow Hillary she was speaking at a high school (I think) and the press group was put into the men’s locker room – urinals clearly visible along the walls as they were trying to use benches for their stories. She posted several pictures and we all were appalled that the campaign couldn’t do better than that – and that they seemed to be oblivious to how bad it looked!

http://www.breitbart.tv/obama-dems-in-2005-51-vote-nuclear-option-is-arrogant-power-grab-against-the-founders-intent/

Listen to Dems harp about arrogant power grab. Typical hypocrites but you will whine about Repubs.

The CBO is saying it will be deficit neutral based on ASSUMPTIONS that are not law. Every entitlement program has cost multiples of estimates and this one will too. Part of the bill should be those who are in faovr of it along with those who vote for it will pay in premiums any cost over the estimates.

++The resulkt will be one of two: It will never pass or all the liberals will finally shut up. Thats a win-win.

djconklin

“The only money the conservatives respect is their own–”

Maybe if more people respected their own money we would not have to have enormous bailouts and entitlements.

==
diecash1

you keep screaming facts it would be nice if you knew them. Obama will add more to the national debt than ALL Presidents combined.

“Obama will add more to the national debt than ALL Presidents combined.”
..
How exactly is this a fact? It is nothing more than a wild assumption and it’s telling that you don’t know the difference. It’s a fact, however, that Reagan, HW and W added trillions to the national debt and you are unable to dispute that. As usual, you are fact-challenged and full of hot air.