CPAC’s Youngsters

The news you won’t get from the state controlled media — anti-gay speakers shouted down at CPAC as Ron Paulistas and small “l” libertarians and tea partiers take over the audiences if not the speaker’s platforms – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFNezndrSII

Yep they know who they are, just can’t figure out how to make it work.
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Individual freedom, get out of my life, it is my money, it is my life, these are all things I said when I was 15, or so, to my parents.
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It took a long time to figure out what my responsibilites where.

Control to sacredh… control to sacredh.
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“Target of opportunity” spotted at coordinates above.
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Scramble! Scramble!

brucemajors,
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On behalf of the assorted cretins, embeciles and pinheads here in the Swampland…. welcome back to commentary.

A lot of people at CPAC and in the GOP and Tea Party movement might want to read about some of their roots in recent American history. See THE SOUTHERN COUP by Michael Lind in The New Republic from 1995:

http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/the-southern-coup

I see you put out the call afguy. I mentally did it before I went to do some errands and hoped sacred would be here by the time I returned. Guess he’s out doing good works.

What a bunch of self righteous jerks you are. I, too, was an idealist when I graduated from college, but soon realized that throwing money at a problem would not make it go away. At some point, people must ASSUME responsibility for themselves and their actions. I am gratified to see more young people make that connection much sooner than I did. Young conservatives truly ARE the future of our country and I say thank God. Turning it over to a bunch of left leaning, hand wringing liberals has not worked out so well, has it? Now, let the squawking begin as the idealists try to defend their shaky and crumbling turf. Lots of luck with that one, Buster!

Hey, earljr,
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Take thee and some of thy fellow Conservatives who obviously are our future to a Marine recruiting center so some of the kids in Iraq and Afghanistan, serving so that you can sit here and run your mouth about assuming responsibility for yourself, can have a break and have a future of their own.
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Or does “taking personal responsibility” only have to do with making a lot of money?

For those who still remember the old sixties movie [the first or one of the first on the wide screen] on ‘How the West was Won.’ Well, this Post tells you ‘How the West was Lost.’

http://ikejakson.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/time-will-tell/

Or is this one of those “Warrior or Merchant” class type decisions?

No afguy, those brave soldiers and sailors are there voluntarily to defend YOUR right to be a jerk! I served two tours there as Physician (Surgeon) and witnessed, first hand, the heroism they exhibited. You will also be appalled that the vast majority of troops I served with, view liberal elitists as jaded couch potatoes with NOTHING to offer except empty rhetoric. We faced REALITY, up close and personal and guess what? It is not nearly as pretty and comfy as you jerks wearing those rose colored glasses would have us believe. From idealism to reality, is the best description I can give you as to how conservatives view the world. (and people like you)

Well, earl, having gone in in the ’60s and served for 20 years, I think EVERYONE should have to serve, not just the ones that volunteer. Do you not feel that this is important enough for even the Wall Street analysts and children of the rich and powerful to put their lives on the line for?
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Do you not feel that those who vounteered still need to be allowed to have some semblance of a family life, esp. while MANY more have never made any attempt to serve? Or is that just a technicality, that once you enlist, we have you until we decide to let you go?
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And I am curious how you determined the views of the “vast majority of those you served with”?

Get that man-sized chip off of your conservative shoulder, Doc. There’s not enough of you so-called conservatives to defend this country by yourself. We’re all in this together.
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And until you stop treating everyone else who doesn’t measure up to your Conservative worldview as the enemy, this country’s in deep trouble.
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Wash a little of that OCS indoctrination out of your eyes and look at the country around you with fresh eyes.

afguy, if you served twenty years, then you know that troops are prone to voice an opinion at any given opportunity. When you are in combat conditions there are not many niceties around and grousing becomes part of your daily activity. No one is shy about voicing an opinion and you should know this. I am sorry to tell you and your fellow liberals this, but you are held in low esteem by most of the troops. (all talk and no action. when you do undertake something, it gets screwed up) I am ALL for reinstating the draft, afguy, it is the only equitable way to spread the load around. Some of the hero’s I had the pleasure of serving with, were on their fifth and six deployments.

Watch the youth of CPAC get down with the rap! Watch the video.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/02/not-a-lot-of-rap-fans-at-cpac-it-seems.php?ref=mp

earljr1

Thanks for your comments. As a Navy Vet, I totally agree with you. It seems like all that Jay and the 90% liberals on this site can do is try to put down anything or anyone who doesn’t follow their liberal views.
Liberals are a joke and they have proven it in the one year they have tried to govern the country.
Obama’s election was not a mandate for the change that liberals envisioned.
It happened because Obama falsely ran as a moderate, combined with a poor economy and a desire for someone defferent than Bush as President. Now that the American public sees the direction that Obama and the rest of the liberals want to take us, they are moving in mass to moderate and conservative politicians.
The election in November will mark the end of this liberal experiment and bring the country back to its conservative and moderate roots.

earljr1

Thanks for your comments. As a Navy Vet, I totally agree with you. It seems like all that Jay and the 90% liberals on this site can do is try to put down anything or anyone who doesn’t follow their liberal views.
Liberals are a joke and they have proven it in the one year they have tried to govern the country.
Obama’s election was not a mandate for the change that liberals envisioned.
It happened because Obama falsely ran as a moderate, combined with a poor economy and a desire for someone different than Bush as President. Now that the American public sees the direction that Obama and the rest of the liberals want to take us, they are moving in mass to moderate and conservative politicians.
The election in November will mark the end of this liberal experiment and bring the country back to its conservative and moderate roots.

I know about the conservative bent of the military, Doc. Was in AF avionics.
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I’m not exactly a liberal. Not exactly con either. I’m actually conservative religiously.
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I voted for Obama but am more than a little pissed off that he hasn’t delivered. Thought he had good ideas if he could deliver. The alternative wasn’t hard to vote against, even though he was ex-military. Don’t get me started on Congress (both parties).
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Liberals don’t always screw up what they do, but I do realize it’s a convenient talking point. And you have to admit the past 8 years wasn’t a case study for success financially for the country from the GOP.
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I was fortunate to be part of the Apollo support structure when I was in. And Skylab III. Government has a place in this country. There are just some things that free markets don’t do well (hello, space program?)
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Incidentially, I really didn’t care about others opinion of my political leanings while in. They knew that, professionally, they could count on me, and that I was honest and honorable. That’s what mattered.
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This is me. Hope this clarifies.

earl: Thank you for your service. When interviewed at a Young Republican’s meeting a few years ago, when asked, members stated they wouldn’t enlist because they could serve their country best at home. It reminded me of college deferments during the Vietnam War. I was against the war early on. However, the big protests did not happen until college deferments (that Cheney used so well) were rescinded. Believe me, if there was a threat of a draft for these chickenhawks, they would be protesting.
Also, if you lived through the 50s, you would be very wary of these people. My lord, one of their sponsors is the John Birch Society.

No OCS indocrination for me, afguy, I volunteered to accept my commission right out of medical school. It was a great experience and I hold in awe those I had the pleasure of serving with. Knowing how liberals think, I had MANY opportunities (I graduated third in my class) for surgical residencies. Every program I applied to accepted me. My desire to serve was simply old fashioned patriotism….I WANTED to serve! The only liberal Doctor I met, was there fulfilling his scholarship money obligation and he bitched the WHOLE time he was there. We were ALL glad to see him rotate out.

3x and earl,
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I’m really curious what the proposed changes will be if moderates and conservatives are back in power, as you state is going to happen. I know what they’re against – what are the proposals to get us out of the ditch we’re in?
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Please – none of the usual “free market principles”, tax cuts, etc. We have no infrastructure right now. It’s been sent abroad. Here in Ky, the roads are falling apart. Unless youlive around the middle of the state, we’re off the radar.
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What are the GOP proposals to improve matters?

3xfire3,
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You need to get the chip off your shoulder too. Want to talk? Let’s talk. Don’t blow off anyone who disagrees with you as one of “those liberals”.

afguy,

You deserve an Oscar for your past performances on this site. Having read many of your posts, you come across as a typical closed minded Liberal believing everything that conservatives do is evil. Now you say you are a conservative. You certainly had me fooled.
Again congratulations on the Oscar.

Read what I said, 3x, ALL of it.
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I said I have some conservative views. Not everyone is a monolithic liberal or a uniform conservative.
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And “can” the sarcasm… it’s starting to appear that you can’t communicate without doing so.
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As I said before… we’re all in this country together. You can’t make it work all by yourself.

afguy,
You and most [not all] of the liberals who post to this site appear to be the ones with the big chip on your shoulders.
I believe that most moderates and conservatives make very rational, fact driven comments. Most liberal [again not all] tend to make emotional rather then rational comments, usually calling names and demonizing anyone who disagrees with them. The major difference I have seen in my 71 years between liberals and conservatives is that most liberals minds are usually closed and will not rationally debate an issue. Most conservatives are opened minded and willing to rationally debate the issues.

Argument by (alleged) biography. Is there a less persuasive tact on the interwebs?

Well, 3x, we’re not the ones using the sarcasm and streaming insults as a constant crutch. You obviously haven’t seen Textee and Rusty’s posts. To them, we are the spawn of Satan.
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But I guess getting you to agree that not all liberals are totally bad is a start. As for the age thing, I remember when D’s and R’s could disagree without being hateful. My mom was like that, and my daughter in FL is hard-core Tea Party but we still communicate.
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Both sides do it. I’ll agree. Now, if I can get you to agree that you have some real hate-mongers in your midst, without resorting to a “but the D’s do it too”, I consider that we have crossed a threshhold.

Doc,
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I attended training some time back up-state in which the instructor was an Israeli emigre who served in the IDF.
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Best week I can remember. We ate at Subway and talked about the respective service policies of our respective countries over lunch.
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Israel has universal service – no exceptions except for extreme family hardship. One of the MAJOR mistakes I think this country made was to eliminate the concept of a national service requirement for the youth of this country.
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We’ve now had almost four decades of almost an “every man for himself” concept. I think that, if we had that, a lot of the “wars” we are fighting right now would have been entered reluctantly or not at all.
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Too many at the top making policy with no concept of what it is to put their own bacon in the frying pan. And no one they know in that boat either.

“You will also be appalled that the vast majority of troops I served with, view liberal elitists as jaded couch potatoes with NOTHING to offer except empty rhetoric. We faced REALITY, up close and personal and guess what? It is not nearly as pretty and comfy as you jerks wearing those rose colored glasses would have us believe.”

Me, I’m appalled that: 1) you and your “vast majority of troops” don’t seem to have a clue who and what put you in that “reality” and 2) “liberal elitists” would have avoided the monstrous reality of the Iraq War altogether because there was no good reason for it and liberals are not the jerks wearing rose-colored glasses lying to everyone that war is going to be pretty and comfy (i.e., the U.S. would be greeted as liberators, that Iraqi oil money would pay for the reconstruction), see “1)”.
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I’m also pretty appalled that anyone could go through eight years of higher learning, internship and actual doctoring of the sick and injured and still be such ignorant, misanthropic f*cktard.

Thank you, 3xfire3, It is nice to hear a friendly voice and I agree with you. I think liberals are in for a big surprise, come November. 65% of Americans feel this country is headed in the wrong direction and groups, like the tea party, are mobilizing to correct this wrong. They continue to dismiss us in the most insulting way and we could care less. Results is our motivator and believe me, we ARE motivated.

earljr and 3xfire3,
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Well, can’t say I didn’t try to have a conversation with you but, in the end, you have set up a 2-person echo chamber.
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Enjoy picking at that open sore on your respective shoulders… that chip must be very heavy.

Love it. Ron Paul won the straw poll at CPAC. Romney came in second. Fox excluded Paul from a debate during the last campaign. Beck, who is giving the closing speech at the convention, has characterized him and his followers as dangerous.
He, of course, has always been in opposition to the Iraq war. He even thinks the Civil War should not have been fought.
I would say the neocons, social conservatives, and old guard crazies have lost control. Oh fraptious day.

That’s funny.
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I wonder if Paul’s victory will give pause to his primary challengers from the right.

shepardwong, you epitomize the concept of being a liberal hard head. I consider myself to be an independent voter and have voted Democrat as many times as I have voted Republican. I am also a conservative and I RESENT how the Democratic party has been taken over by a bunch of left wing lunatics. ( And I assume this includes you) Ideology and empty rhetoric DO NOT run a country and in my humble opinion, this is what we are dealing with. Your profane name calling hurts me not…it just makes me MORE determined to defeat people JUST LIKE YOU.

I just had a revelation.
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earljr and 3xfire3 didn’t come to the Swampland to exchange ideas. They came to have their low opinion of ALL so-called liberals verified.
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I just spent about an hour trying to get the two of them to engage and give their views but, in the end, about all I saw them do was develop a mutual admiration society with each other, ignore my questions, and respond ONLY to an insults thrown their way with more insults.
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Tribalism, pure and simple… neither is REALLY interested in anything being said here. Their minds are already made up… and CLOSED.
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Don’t waste the keystrokes.

Thank you, afguy, your reasonable approach gives me reason to think a middle ground can be met between opposing factions. I would NEVER be arrogant enough to think I had all the answers…far from it. I do know the we MUST return to fiscal responsibility for the very survivability of our country. We must start holding elected officials responsible for their actions (transparency) and remove a number of these professional politicians from the public trough (term limits) This is just a start, but these would be positive steps toward restoring our government to what our Constitution envisioned.

Thanks for proving my point.
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I never said I had all of the answers – I tried to get you to tell me what yours were. You just went silent, exc. to respond to the insults.
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Until you stop trying to paint ALL those on the other side as being unreasonable, even when they do try to get you to talk, NO ONE is going to take you very seriously.
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Minds are changed, one on one, talking to each other. NOT by trading insults.
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Don’t take this wrong, but how does a doctor increase his knowledge and skills if his mind is completely closed to other ideas?
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Start by admitting that you Conservatives don’t have all of the answers either, otherwise, we would be in economic heaven after the past 8 years. We aren’t.
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I’m STILL waiting for your vision of how the Con resurgence is going to get the country back on track.
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Further insults (personal or political) won’t do much to convince me. I’m looking for your viewpoint.

Ivy_B,
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Did Bruce just do a “hit-and-run” post?
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Maybe he’s “gun-shy” from last night…

”I consider myself to be an independent voter and have voted Democrat as many times as I have voted Republican.”
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Anyone who’s head is so far up his own ass as to claim that it’s liberals who are naïve about the realities of war, that it’s Democrats who are the party of “ideology and empty rhetoric” and that you’ve “voted Democrat as many times as I have voted Republican”, proves that you’re not merely brainwashed and stupid but full of sh*t as well. I consider you to be a right-wing partisan fool and a liar.

“I RESENT how the Democratic party has been taken over by a bunch of left wing lunatics”
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LOMFL!

earljr,
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Saw the response when I re-read – thanks.
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Now, those were broad strokes and I agree. They are almost completely unanswerable right now – BOTH parties.
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How about the economy?
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What can we do to get a big chunk of the country back to work?
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A healthy Wall Street should be a symptom of a healthy economy, not the whole ballgame.
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Thoughts?

afguy, I’m sorry that I cannot respond as quickly as you desire, but when one is on call, the telephone has my top priority. See my commentary on my last response. I will support ANY candidate who advocates the same principles. My mind IS open, I simply cannot identify ANY Democrat who mirrors this approach to Government. I am, as stated previously, an independent voter, the type of voter the Democrats are driving, for all their worth, to the opposition. (see shepardwong) For my take, afguy, you are awfully quick jumping to conclusions. Slow down a bit…your health depends on it.

earljr,
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Point taken. My apology for jumping the gun.
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Healthwise, my big concern is arthritis in the spine. My family has a history of cancer (mother’s side) and heart disease (father).
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I have therefore decided I’m NOT going to worry too much about either, having three HS/college-age boys. Their education comes first.
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Makes for interesting work practices and health questionaires.

Hysterical video of Glen Beck and David Horowitz worried about Ron Paul and the Paulists inciting violence by their terrorist rhetoric. It just can’t get more ironic.

“I am, as stated previously, an independent voter, the type of voter the Democrats are driving, for all their worth, to the opposition. (see shepardwong)”
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Yes, because only a proud “independent voter” could be clueless and narcissistic enough to be driven to vote for Republicans because his opinions of liberals and Democrats were shown to be partisan and idiotic.

Obama falsely ran as a moderate
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No he didn’t. Most people thought Obama was a liberal, despite his moderate track-record in the Senate. It’s accurate to say candidate Obama was perceived as a liberal when he’s always been a (as Stu will point out) a New Way Dem (centrist).
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Now that the American public sees the direction that Obama and the rest of the liberals want to take us, they are moving in mass to moderate and conservative politicians.
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How’s that? The 42% tax-cut stimulus? –the health insurance mandate? –the amplification of the war in Afghanistan –the 6% annual increase in defense spending? That’s the conservative media’s spin.
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We’ve had a 30 year swing of the political pendulum to the (far) right and it hasn’t worked. But one year of Blue Dog dems and the liberal experiment is over?
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We must start holding elected officials responsible for their actions (transparency)
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Now we’re talking. I’m disappointed that Obama hasn’t made enough improvements over the prior administration. But let’s go deeper. How about these officials holding business responsible for their actions? Enforce anti-trust laws (too big to fail). Transparency for hedge funds; for commodity trading desks (so they can’t fleece CA for billions [Enron]). Not allowing derivatives to be AAA rated. When the derivative market grew from nothing to several trillion dollars in a couple of years- review of how that effects the housing market. I don’t know how someone can say they’re for the working-class over the elites and NOT be for federal oversight of major business.
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and remove a number of these professional politicians from the public trough (term limits)
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OK. But I think that election finance reform would be more effective. IMO, lobbies should be able to petition and present to Congress and advertise to us, but not donate to re-election coffers.
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You want small government: what about all that money we give weapons manufacturers? We spend more on infrastructure in Afghanistan that we do here. It’s shameful.
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Populist conservatives need to address these issues if they want to present a clear and attractive message.

Don’t worry, they’ll all get whipped back on board the Romney Train to Reagan Town by 2012.

Obama is not liberal. This movement is not conservative.

pintortwo:
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Great, accurate, provocative commentary, thanks.

“We’ve had a 30 year swing of the political pendulum to the (far) right and it hasn’t worked. But one year of Blue Dog dems and the liberal experiment is over?”
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Yes, isn’t it great that after 30 years of Reagan ruling our universe that the dems got together, regained power, and have begun the arduous job of dismantling the corpo-militarist state. Reversing not merely 3 decades of conservative (old & neo) rule in the process, but further, they’ve also changed the narrative about how our country should perceive the rightist tumor on the body politic that is the Reagan doctrine, and how wonderful truly liberal cures are.
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Yes, I’m smoking green tea laced with opiates.
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“Populist conservatives need to address these issues if they want to present a clear and attractive message.”
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Sadly, Pint, they don’t. They’ve not done so for 30 years, and it’s worked out just dandy for them. After this two-year hiatus winning back the oligarchs disenchanted with Obama’s faux populism, they’ll regain power on the same contradictory and baffling platform of lies. The media won’t hold them at all accountable for said lies.
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The question at this pt. is the next time we claw our way out of the wilderness, if we’ll have actual liberals championing our message. Or these spineless f’ing hucksters concerned about wins.

That is not to diminish all of he cogent comments here. I have just lost track of what conservative means now, as well as what liberal means. I think that now both terms mean nothing.

I missed the fun again but Bruce did show up (again) on the original thread. Here’s hoping he’s not just a hit and run. My guess is that the attention is going to be the lure of a siren call. (Watch out for the reef)

Ivy-B, not out doing good works. I’m on midnights and then went out car shopping with my better half. I’m not sure, but we may have found a winner.

LOL.. isn’t that the same Ron Paul that Sacha Baron “Borat” Cohen tried to seduce and bed in his movie “Bruno” ?

formerlyjames, I agree. I think if you ask 10 different people what liberal and conservative means, you’ll get 10 different answers. I’m liberal on some issues and conservative on others. Most thinking people are probably the same. I have right wing friends that couldn’t care less about gay marriage and left leaning friends that are against it.

Same guy. Break out the champagne.

Precisely the point I’ve tried to make with some of our more sane conservative visitors, that there are few monolithic liberals or conservatives.
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Also, there aren’t enough of either group to protect and service the country by themselves so we better stop trying to sink the boat with all of us still in it.

I know what a liberal is.
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I am one.

No, no, no…they’re not young; it’s just that the typical RWer acts like a 5 year old.

Point being…?

Young or old, the CPAC types should be banished to Canada so that the rest of us don’t have to move there.

The Last Straw

Besides the ‘for’ or ‘against’ big government solutions argument that spawned the Tea Party craze (as well as the long running fight for libertarianism), the other distinction that still exists between conservative and liberal is that conservatives believe successful people should have rewards to keep being successful and liberals believe they should pay for everything all the worthless (or should I say ‘value-challenged’?) people need because it’s “the humane thing to do”.

“More than $250,000″ makes you “the rich”? How pathetic that making a measly ten times what a box shuffler makes qualifies you for paying for all the entitlements and services for everybody else.

The real problem is that all the box shufflers and hamburger flippers and paperwork churners aren’t creating enough value that we (all of us as a nation) can afford to give them anything, much less a free ticket to health care and retirement and all the rest.

The only place I’ll ever agree with Hillary Clinton is that raising children is more than two peoples’ worth of challenge. Unfortunately, government solutions like public education are a large part of the problem because the authoritarian behavioral conditioning (“sit still and wait to be told what to do”) ensures that large numbers of cattle are churned out that really aren’t capable of much more than being a “consumer”.

Until we solve that problem effectively, we won’t get anywhere with the rest of them. Value creation is at the heart of economic progress, and today’s public schools ensure that very few people are capable of being independent thinkers and take responsibility for actively doing so. Couple that with the fact that many people who have children do so in spite of their inability to take care of them and you have a spiraling recipe for disaster. There is progress in schooling — mostly from independent charter schools — in doing more to enlighten children about consequences and opportunities and doing less to condition them to do what they’re told, but it is glacially slow and the vast majority of the kids who need it most aren’t getting what they need. There are both political and corporate reasons why this continues to be the way it is, and those truths are the real tragedy of America.

Overheard at #CPAC10 by a college aged girl: “do you think Reagan is going to talk soon?”

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Overheard at #CPAC10 by a college aged girl: "do you think Reagan is going to talk soon?"—
Eric Kuhn (@Kuhn) February 19, 2010

Unfortunately, government solutions like public education are a large part of the problem…
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So tell me, dwilde1, did you beam directly from preschool into college or did you have enough foresight to arrange to be born to parents who could afford to send you to a private educational experience?
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Jeez… and the conservative crowd has the nerve to call liberals elitist…

Sorry, dewilde1, the septic tank is going to have to be pumped out at least twice to get rid of all of the philosophical turds you deposited in the posting above.
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Why don’t you take your supposed superiority down and volunteer do help out in the Iraq/Afghanistan effort? A few of the guys and gals over there need a well-deserved break.

sacredh,
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The missus or the car? Don’t tell me you traded her in…

“a measly 10 times what a box shuffler makes”?
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That says it all. What is fair 100 times as much? A 1000? That reminds me of the seagulls in “Finding Nemo” that see something they want and go “Mine! Mine! Mine! Mine!”.

afguy, the car. The mrs and I are stuck with each other. No one else would want or put up with either of us. I found my crazy lady. It’s for the duration.

@afguy: I was dubbed “teachers’ assistant” at various times in public schools because they didn’t want to deal with my questions so I watched the dumbing down from the back of the room. While I certainly had a few excellent teachers, the ABC that I speak of far outweighs the spark in 90% of the kids. I’m not elitist because I want *everybody* to be free of the crap that weighs them down. It’s not a new problem, but we can’t afford the costs of having things stay the way they are.
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…and, btw, I helped make black spy satellite chips that are helping the men and women overseas, and machines to make cruise missile wiring harnesses. We don’t all need to poke guns into caves in order to help fight bad guys. Or, was it your hope that I’d just get my head shot off or come back choked by the dust like too many of my friends who did go to fight?
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@sacredh, it’s a matter of value creation. The net value created by the guy shoving boxes is very little above zilch. When the box shover gets something for nothing, he has no incentive to improve himself. What is fair is that the guy who creates value — be he football player, singer, or geek, gets value in return. The guy who gets value reinvests it and everybody else benefits. I help make the computers you use far cheaper than they used to be, and that’s the value you — all! — get to take away. I’m struggling to learn to be an entrepreneur because that’s the only real way to get commensurate return for the results of my labors.
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To both of you, I do everything I can to address the inequity. I spent years and ran a former business of mine into the ground because I spent hours every week volunteering in classrooms trying to figure out how to stop the behavioral conditioning from happening.I just got back from a trip to Miami where I worked with foster kids on economics and business skills. I know what to do now; and I am determined to put myself in a position where I can help fix this tragically broken system.
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It’s not that lots of (liberal!) professional educators don’t understand the issue. It’s that too many people in control of society benefit from having gullible consumers who will buy stupid crap and believe the same politicians over and over again. Educators *hate* NCLB and the ones I know hate the new version too, but they are powerless to change DC’s power-centric agenda and so it goes on and on.
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I would much rather have 90% be creatives than the other way around. It’s not peoples’ fault that school screws them over so badly, but it is time for that to change. I’m sure creatives will come up with new problems but I’ll bet we’d all rather have the new ones than the ones we have.

We also have the Wall Street scum that come up with derivative bundles that create wealth for themselves and no one else. We also have speculators that drive up the cost of the commodities that result in the people at the lower end of the financial spectrum taking the hit when it all comes tumbling down. The system is permanently stacked against the average working class stiffs that aren’t part of the elite. Some people just don’t have the extra intellect to move into the elite. They still deserve a living wage. They still deserve help when they need it. The boxes still need shuffled and the paper still needs pushed.

How do you propose that these students get an education, if not through public education? Or are they just supposed to figure that out on their own? You want to tear down the existing system without having any real idea how to fix or improve it. I wonder how much of your input in the classroom was constructive.
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We don’t all need to poke guns into caves in order to help fight bad guys.
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Don’t flatter yourself. Working for a contractor, I doubt you had to sacrifice much of your comfort or economic wellbeing while you worked on those chips. Your objection with your lot is that you didn’t make (and aren’t making) what YOU think you are worth. And I suspect you feel a little guilty (but not too much) about staying behind, making a pretty fair amount of coin doing what you LIKE to do, while your friends eat dust/get shot at.
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Or, was it your hope that I’d just get my head shot off or come back choked by the dust like too many of my friends who did go to fight?
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Your words, not mine. However, it is my opinion that the biggest supporters of the military activity we are in right now are those who really don’t have to get shot at, for whom the conflict has a “video game” type of reality to them.
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On second thought, stay where you are. The nation doesn’t need more “frustrated entrepreneurs” trying to operate in a “life or death” team atmosphere, because you, bucko, don’t fit that environment.

Sounds like future investment bank CEO material to me…

@sacredh, most of the rich people I know are caring, courageous people who give away far more than you or I. When you talk about “Wall Street scum” who created derivatives, how many of “them” do you think there are? Fifty, maybe? Even if it’s a thousand, it’s a small number.
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Compare this to the rich people you know personally; the ones who give to their church, who sponsor school expansion projects, who are always ready with a check for something worthwhile. You have to be able to look them in the eye, though, and get them to believe your cause is worthwhile.
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The one thing the rich people I know hate is waste. They hate to be stolen from, and they hate to see it wasted. Entitlements that are government programs are rife with built-in waste. Four layers of bureaucrats for every dollar spent!
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I’ll agree that the system is stacked against your “average working class stiff” — fundamentally by brainwashing him to be a gullible follower in school — but that doesn’t mean that “helping” him needs to be so fvcking inefficient that it drags all the not-so-dumb people down.
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There comes a point when even the dumbest sod has to be told to get off his @ss and learn something new. You know, I’m sorry but if I hear that somebody who you say needs my “help” spends more than five hours a week on ‘American Idol’ and other entertainment crapola (not to mention babbling on blogs like this), I say he doesn’t need my help bad enough to deserve it. He shouldn’t even get the progressive tax rate, IMHO.
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I’ve paid my pound of flesh to make computers cheap enough for everybody and it doesn’t take a whole lot of time to learn to do something useful with them. If somebody’s that stupid that he can’t learn to learn, well, as @afguy said, there’s always Afghanistan.
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Learning to learn is not something that costs money, Democrats to the contrary. My best learning has occurred when my mortgage is in default and my Internet is at risk, and government-sponsored unemployment really didn’t do sh!t for me. Worthless when you actually need it!
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Besides my overall commitment to changing the way the world works, I help people that I believe deserve it. I am not willing to pay for government droids to assess whether somebody I can’t assess myself needs it. It’s just too wasteful.

@afguy, if scoring points is the goal, I surrender. I have better things to do.
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Honestly, I’m not sure what to think of the current Afghanistan military situation. I supported a Viet Nam vet who single-handedly prevented anther My Lai event (among many other things) for 14 years, so I think I have some idea of the costs of war despite never having been shot at myself.
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AFA public education (as opposed to charter schools, etc), yes, we are stuck with it and my liberal friends — one of them is a cherished member of my Board — make some good points about the inclusiveness of it.
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Before I ask to change public education — and yes, I want it changed drastically — the only thing I need to see happen is that parents and children need to be made aware of the behavioral conditioning effects of the way the system works now. That’s all. You’re certainly right that some of my time in those earlier days was spent fumbling and was less than effective, but I have come to believe that if people are aware of a conditioning they can choose to counter it.
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It’s really blatant. The most important thing that happens in school is that you are told to sit still, be quiet, and wait to be told what to think and what to do, and what the artificial rewards are set to be.
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Even though this happens six hours a day, 180 days a year, and for twelve years or more, human beings are fully capable of negating its repercussions if they become aware of it.
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So, there you have it in a nutshell, @afguy. My plan for renovating America.
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It’s even retroactive. Try it on, and I’ll bet you become less susceptible to advertising, political spin, and even friends who are trying to mooch.

If somebody’s that stupid that he can’t learn to learn, well, as @afguy said, there’s always Afghanistan.
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Any of you other “troop supporters” want to tackle this comment from entrepreneur-in-waiting dwilde1?
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Apparently, someone “too stupid to learn to learn” is who we should settle for in support Afghanistan.
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dwilde1 and those with his particular brand of ambition are too important to be expended in such mundane and hazardous undertakings. Did he just admit that he thinks Afghanistan really isn’t that important?
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Sounds like a “merchant” and “warrior” class distinction to me – and I can see where he thinks he fits.

@afguy, if Swampland is meant to be a battleground, I retreat. I mean it. Please don’t shoot just to shoot. There are enough people here who do just that.
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You belittle my understanding of Afghanistan and I certainly don’t know as much as those who were/are there. I do see a value to prosecuting offensive action in Afghanistan. The Army has always been very effective at teaching troops to be effective; it’s the only ‘government program’ that IS effective. I have an Army asymmetrical warfare instructor from Iraq as one of my closest advisors. That should say something as for the high regard that I place upon his experience and his service.
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AFA whether I’m ‘too important’ to be expended in Afghanistan, as though I’m worth more, no human being deserves to be expended in war or in commerce. No, I don’t think I’m worth more, but that just means that the onus is on me to prove it by my actions.
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I work really hard at that, @afguy. You ain’t seen nothing yet but that just means that you ain’t seen nothing yet.

afguy: I think dwilde1 just has taken the Randian world as real and he is Galt. The fantasy story in his mind is that dwilde1, through superior intelligence and entreprenurial skills leads those like him into a world of meritocracy. Inhabitants of this world look to him and his cohorts as extraordinary and of the highest rank. Those that cannot or chose not to reach this level of superiority are doomed to fight our wars, work at menial jobs, and know there place. Of course, these drones will be expected to be consumers of those fabulous entreprenurial products.
If the masses do not make the right choices and fate steps in to deter them from raising themselves up from the drudgery of the bottom to the enlightment waiting for them, too bad. Maybe someone from the enlightened class will take pity on them. But, don’t count on it.
It is so deliciously Dickens.

So, @aprnumbernumbernumbernumber, the fact that you are not leading the world into meritocracy implies that you have the right to steal and waste the fruits of my labor? Cheap shot.
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What are you doing to earn your keep, pray tell? At least I’m actively trying to solve big problems and I’m fully aware that people need to buy in.
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Please enlighten us as to what you spend your I-could-be-watching-Idol hours on, besides reading Swampland.

dwilde1: This is where your Randian arrogance gets in the way. Anyone who disagrees with you must be worthless. Are you very young? I hope so. You have time to learn.
I have taught school, spent many years in the health insurance business and have done my share of community service. Now for the esoteric so that you will know I understand the contributions of many acts of labor, I have waited tables, bartended, sold Dungeness crab and oysters off the back of a truck, sorted cranberries, worked in a salmon charter office, owned and ran a motel, worked in a gift shop and had an interesting life.
All of those jobs had some value. None of them were meaningless. I know which ones made me the weariest, which ones were the most rewarding financially and personally, but all were important.
Now, after many years of hard work and raising a family I selfishly have retired. Due to physical limitations I do enjoy the Internet. It helps me to interact and keep my mind active.
It sounds to me like you are a work in progress.

http://www.news8austin.com/content/your_news/default.asp?ArID=267537
Article about Vernon Hunter, 67 IRS worker, Vietnam vet, killed in the Austin plane crash.
This is for all those who demonize the federal government. For those that have been politicizing this event. For those at CPAC who actually supported the pilot.

@apr: Yes, very much a work in progress, although born before the Awakening in the Sixties. They told me I had a high genius IQ but I’m still figuring out how to make that worth my keep. I refuse to do the kinds of selfish things others do so yes it’s still a challenge. I don’t waste time on Rand; the problems are all too obvious without need to read.
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I haven’t made myself truly meaningful yet, but that doesn’t mean I have to accept meaningless as worthy. It’s a hard fight but I fight with every one of the breaths I am grateful to have.
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Waiting tables and serving crab with elan is only important to the extent that some one is willing to pay you for it. Obviously you value your perspective, but that’s not worth a dime.
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Is that worth a subsidized minimum existence? I say not. Is that worth what you got out of it? Probably yes but no more unless you can leverage the wisdom.
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What change did your work cause in the essential human condition? Did you cause an increment in the overall trajectory of human development? Did you even try? I may be less than Jesus, but at least I try.
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Are you dead yet? Obviously not. I hope you have more intention than entertainment on the Internet. Please don’t let that be all you’re willing to encompass.

dwilde1: I hate to sound like the old village elder but you keep posting that you don’t know much about certain issues and now that you don’t read. Well, sweetie, here is my advise, condescending or not. Spend some time reading, learn history, take time to dig into issues you are interested in. Learn to respect others and not make assumptions on their contributions. Put aside whatever new age or strange mentoring you are getting and experience life from all perspectives.
Believe me, we all have impact on others, for good or bad. Try to do some plumbing sometime, run a backhoe, pour hot tar on a roof, then think of the value of that service. What service does anyone do to better the human condition. That really isn’t for you to judge. Remember, Jesus and Joseph were carpenters. Jesus was humble. The people he had disdain for were the money changers. He believed do unto the least of us.
Modesty and not being judgemental are virtues he would approve. And quit being such a prig.

thank for post
Dien dan Mua ban

A busy work schedule has kept me occupied for the past few days and another patient is being prepped as I write this. I think dwilde1 raises some very valid points and has the honesty to put these issues on the table. He should be applauded for doing so. afguy and apr2563, your barrage of liberal counterpoints are tinged with the usual insults and are counterproductive to an open discussion. Too often, it is a question of wanting to be “right” and “honesty” falls by the wayside. Most conservatives are reluctant to post on these liberal blogs and when we do so, are subjected to a vicious, personal attack (see shepardwong) This raises one’s blood pressure to an unhealthy high and for that reason, should be avoided. Give dwilde1 the opportunity to speak without insulting his intelligence….we ALL might learn something.

“Most conservatives are reluctant to post on these liberal blogs and when we do so, are subjected to a vicious, personal attack (see shepardwong)…”
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Perhaps if you didn’t show up on “liberal blogs” spewing all sorts of vile and stupid lies about liberals and Democrats you wouldn’t have to suffer “vicious, personal attack” getting called out on your nonsense. Nancy.

earljr1: dwilde1 and I are getting along fine. I guess from your posts you are a medical worker or doctor. Please tend to your patients.

earljr,
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stuartzechman and I have tried to turn the names used to describe so-called liberals by conservative visitors to the Swampland into a game of sorts:
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embeciles, nutjobs, mental cases, pinheads, assclowns, dullards, and narcoleptics are some of the more civil things we have been called.
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I will admit that I have been inspired to use a few descriptives of my own at times: jacka$$ and jerk were my favorites.
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If you and dewilde1 want to cultivate and enhance the quality of the interaction here, let’s just say that questioning our intelligence for disagreeing is NOT the way to do it. Neither is questioning our value to society because we are NOT all rushing out to become businessmen.
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I’m watching the streets deteriorate here because there’s not enough funding to keep them up, with all of the repeated freezes. I know some might question the value of the “lowly” government worker who would be assigned to patch those “craters” but, I imagine that person’s value will rise the first time one of the “more worthy” blows the tires out on his BWM or Mercedes hitting it.
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Value is a “relative” item, I guess – depends on whose ox (or car) is being gored.

The Army has always been very effective at teaching troops to be effective; it’s the only ‘government program’ that IS effective.
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Well, the programs to inspect the roads and bridges have been pretty good – at least we haven’t simply waited for collapses and erosions to happen.
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Building safety? NASA hasn’t been effective at what they did? I think it could be argued that we stopped advancing when it ALL became about turning a profit.
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You want to rely on the manufacturers of Nuclear reactors to build in or add in needed safety requirements without oversight, when there’s a buck to be made?
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DARPA? We’re using the grand-child of a DARPA project right now.
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I guess I’m a little less contemptuous about the role and effectiveness of government than you are. On that point, we’re going to have to differ.
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If you rely for a pure profit motive to justify a “free-market” response to anything, we better hope that we have enough advanced warning to fund any needed research and pray that someone is doing the needed oversight.

apr2563, my patients are just fine, thank you. It is your civility that I question. Calling dwilde1 a “prig”, questioning his maturity and calling him arrogant, simply because his viewpoint is different than yours. Is this how you taught your students? No wonder there is such discord in America today. afguy, you sound like a reasonable person and I agree with you. There is MUCH work to be done in correcting a multitude of wrongs. Your point about “all of us being in this together”, is 100% correct. I am impressed at the intelligence exhibited by most people on this blog. My only question, why all the rancor? shepardwong, you have serious anger issues. I suggest that you seek help for your OWN benefit before it literally consumes you.