FactCheck.org: Cheney v. Biden

In their dueling Sunday show appearances, FactCheck.org says, neither Veep colored entirely inside the lines. It’s worth reading their entire report, but here are some of the highlights:

Vice President Biden and former V.P. Cheney have been slugging it out publicly over the proper way to prosecute suspected terrorists. Biden went so far as to accuse Cheney of being “factually, substantively wrong.” So we took a look, and found both men have been straining the facts:

* Cheney said that shoe bomber Richard Reid was tried in civilian court rather than a military tribunal “primarily because he pleaded guilty.” In fact, 10 months passed between Reid’s arrest and his guilty plea, more than enough time to transfer him to the military system.
* Biden claimed that 300 terrorists have been convicted in civilian courts and “they’re all in jail.” In fact, at least 25 have been released. And the 300 figure is dubious; President Obama himself puts the figure at 190.

Both men put their own spin on things by citing facts selectively.

* Cheney complained that Obama initially called the perpetrator of the 2009 Christmas Day bombing attempt an “isolated extremist.” That’s true, but the president said in the same breath that an investigation was underway and that “we will not rest until we find all who were involved.”
* Biden said only three terrorists had been tried in military tribunals and “two are walking the street right now.” That’s also true — but the streets being walked are in Australia and Yemen.
* Cheney said that 12 percent of freed Guantanamo detainees were “recidivists.” But that was never true unless those “suspected” of fighting the U.S. are counted. The most recent figure of “confirmed” recidivists is 9.6 percent.

Related Topics: Dick Cheney, factcheck.org, Joe Biden, Uncategorized
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  • trifecta55

    Both sides are equally guilty!
    .
    Sorry. It had to be said.

  • trifecta55

    A quick addendum here. For Fact Check to try to create “balance” by quibbling that the two freed military tribunal guys are walking freely in Australia and Yemen is pretty weak tea. I am quite tired of the both sides thing. It is spineless.
    .
    Write an article about Biden, write another article about Cheney. It’s cowardice wrapped up and disguised as balance. Trying not to piss off either side by criticizing both sides as equally bad doesn’t make anybody happy. It also makes for crappy journalism when you have to stretch the truth in order to “fact check”.

  • formerlyjames

    These assertions by both sides don’t really matter. What we know is that Cheney is a bad, evil, false prophet. Biden is…uh, Biden.

  • stuartzechman

    Even when reporters do know the difference, the conventions of he-said-she-said journalism get in the way of conveying that knowledge to readers. I once joked that if President Bush said that the Earth was flat, the headlines of news articles would read, ”Opinions Differ on Shape of the Earth.”

  • kevin

    FactCheck.org distorts this a little. When Biden said Cheney was “factually, substantively wrong” he was responding to a specific set of assertions teed up by David Gregory:
    .
    MR. GREGORY: Let me ask you about some of the criticism that’s been leveled at this administration by former Vice President Dick Cheney. He has argued that this administration has failed to treat the fight against terrorists as war. He cites the decision related to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to offer him a civilian trial as one example. Giving the Christmas Day bomber the privileges of the American criminal justice is another example. The decision to shut down the Guantanamo Bay prison. What do you say?
    .
    That was the starting point, and Biden proceeded to work his way through them. His immediate response:
    .
    VICE PRES. BIDEN: Let me choose my words carefully here. Dick Cheney’s a fine fellow. He’s entitled to his own opinions. He’s not entitled to rewrite history. He’s not entitled to his own facts. The Christmas Day bomber was treated the exact way that he suggested that the shoe bomber was treated, absolutely the same way.
    .
    OK, that is 100% true. Continuing…
    .
    Under the Bush administration, there were three trials in military courts. Two of those people are now walking the streets; they are free..
    .
    FactCheck chides him for not making clear where those streets were, but that’s not the point. Cheney and company keep holding up military tribunals as the surest bet to keep terrorists in jail, and if we’re 1 for 3 through that route, that’s a pretty damning rebuttal, right? It doesn’t matter where they’re free, they’re free.
    .
    Back to Biden:
    .
    There were 300 trials of so-called terrorists and those who had engaged in terror against the United States of America who are in federal prison and have not seen the light of day, prosecuted under the last administration. Dick Cheney’s a fine fellow, but he is not entitled to rewrite history without it being challenged. I don’t know where he has been. Where was he the last four years of the last administration?
    .
    I can’t find the cite, but that 300+ number — which does differ from the 190 Obama cited — came from a Bush administration report. It may be wrong, but it’s from the administration Cheney served. If it’s a whopper, it’s his.
    .
    MR. GREGORY: What about the general proposition that the president, according to former Vice President Cheney, doesn’t consider America to be at war and is essentially soft on terrorism? What do you say about that?
    .
    VICE PRES. BIDEN: I don’t think the vice–the former vice president, Dick Cheney, listens. The president of the United States said in the State of the Union, “We’re at war with al-Qaeda.” He stated this.

    .
    Not only there, but many other times. This is both a false assertion, and a childish one. Simply saying we’re “at war” with terrorism doesn’t add much, but in any case, Obama has done so. Repeatedly.
    .
    Biden continuing: And by the way, we’re pursuing that war with a vigor like it’s never been seen before. We’ve eliminated 12 of their top 20 people. We have taken out 100 of their associates. We are making–we’ve sent them underground. They are, in fact, not able to do anything remotely like they were in the past. They are on the run. I don’t know where Dick Cheney has been. Look, it’s one thing, again, to, to criticize; it’s another thing to sort of rewrite history. What is he talking about?
    .
    MR. GREGORY: You, you have often said, when I’ve asked you and others, that you never impugn a man’s motives, but why do you think Dick Cheney is speaking out and being so critical of the president and the administration so publicly?
    .
    VICE PRES. BIDEN: I don’t know. I, I, I’m not going to guess about his motive. All I know is he’s factually, substantively wrong on the major criticisms he is asserting. Why he’s insisting on that, he either is misinformed or he is misinforming. But the facts are that his assertions are not accurate.

    .
    Seems like FactCheck had to bend over pretty far to find something to damn both houses with.
    .
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35367033/ns/meet_the_press//

  • abdullah69

    Anyone who advocates that Cheney sought to maintain the balance of the relationship between the American people and the Constitution as would be appropriate in his position, and was not simply trying to pad his retirement fund, does not deserve a voice.

    Once liberties are destroyed, they are almost impossible to be get back. The damage Cheney has done will last the life of the Republic.

  • dwilde1

    I’m sorry, but I can’t find Dick Cheney (or Karl Rove, FTM) worthy of anything better than a shotgun blast to the guts and time to contemplate his misdeeds as his consciousness expires, hopefully painfully and with great loneliness. One of the worst administrations since the 1870s is thankfully behind us… please let it stay deceased.

    Mr. Biden, at least, deserves a pasture in which to chew his cud. Pathetic is less bad than evil.

  • trifecta55

    Umm Kevin…. Both sides are equally guilty. By the way, where did we get the idea that there were just two sides anyways? But, that is another horrible convention as well.

  • stuartzechman

    He said-She said will be the death of journalism.

  • kevin

    By the way, where did we get the idea that there were just two sides anyways?
    .
    The media, of course. They’ve reduced politics to boxing, with coverage that focuses not on what ideas and policies might better us all, but on which side is better at beating the crap out of the other.

  • the committee

    *Cheney: egregious lie about his own record
    *Biden: inflates, maybe, historical figures which factcheck.org, um, does not authoritatively establish

    *Cheney complained about rhetoric, and his complaint was stupid to begin with.
    *Biden failed to specify which countries former detainees were released to.
    *Some percentage of people who were never formally accused of anything went on to “recidivize,” someone somewhere has “confirmed.”
    ______________

    Sorry, but WHAT IS THIS? Fact checking is a lovely service, but it’s only helpful when we can figure out whose lies matter more, no? It seems to me they’re going out of their way to muddy the waters.

    Meanwhile, Cheney and his progeny are actively running ads advocating against courts, lawyers, and due process. These people are fascists, and I dare anyone to subject that claim to a fact check.

    But Joe Biden insinuated that two people made it through a military tribunal unscathed, so…um, I’m not sure what, exactly.

  • trifecta55

    I would kind of like our press to tour England or Canada and tell the third and fourth parties there that they shouldn’t exist because obviously there are only two sides to all issues and they were just superfluous to the process.
    .
    That would fix em good!

  • destor23

    I remember when Dick Cheney, as sitting Vice President, entered freely into debate with Al Gore who had been Veep before him and disagreed with him about a great many things.

  • michaelfury

    “Do the orders still stand,” Mr. Cheney?

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2008/12/18/clock-stoppers/

  • michaelfury
  • michaelfury
  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    Another perfectly balanced analysis proving, yet again, that all things are the same.

  • Cliff

    Seconded.

  • slowp

    Okay, so both were wrong about a couple things.

    But: Did Cheney tell the actual truth about anything?

  • allthingsinaname

    I allways thought it was up to the press to do the research and fact checking where possible, so who is fact checking fact check?
    .
    Journalism has become just a group of people linking each others reports, ABC gives a report supported by reports from AP and so on. So it becomes a he said, she said, they said, but where are the facts.
    .
    Today on the swampland we see things like the Stimulus is hated, fine but should it be? Well the report said it saved 2 million jobs, but only a 1/3 of the money has been spent so the jury is still out. But they still claim that we spent 787 billion for those 2 million jobs?
    .
    Now we have KT falling in the same trap. Hell I’ve been at work for 11 hours, and haven’t caught up yet with the blogs, buit from what I’ve seen the swampland has taken a dump.

  • rustyreturns

    Wow, the far left extremism of the liberal left exposing violence, yet again. How sad.

  • Matt

    So how come Cheney only gets fact-checked when he appears head-to-head with Biden? Where was this fact checking in, I don’t know, 2002 in the run-up to war with Iraq?

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • thomsimonson

    The military tribunal vs. civilian trial debate is nearly always presented in the context of jurisdiction or the effectiveness of outcome of said proceedings (as in the Biden Cheney debate).

    Rarely, if ever, is it discussed that the JAG rules do not allow for any right to refuse questioning, protection against self incrimination, or right to legal counsel during interrogation. If we believe in these protections we have to afford them to everyone. Not just the defendants we think are worthy.

    Our civilian system of jusitice functioned well enough to capture, convict and execute, the Oklahoma city bomber, Timothy McVeigh. A terrorist born and bred right here in the US.

  • rustyreturns

    The ruse as usual keeps on going in this Administration. They have to defend themselves so often simply because they can never tell the same LIE twice.
    .
    “Save or created jobs”. Not a fact, simply a lie. The only factual numbers on jobs is the unemployment rate. Unemployment rose to over 10%. Now it is 9.7%. How many jobs were created. You do the math, just remember we have spent nearly 1/3 of the Stimulus money, about 300 BILLION dollars to create potentially 300,000 jobs. That ladies and gentlemen is about ONE MILLION of tax payer dollars spent per job created.
    .
    “We do treat this as a war on terror”. Not a fact, simply a lie. This Administration up until just a month or so ago when Sen Scott Brown showed the anger out in America was upset at this Administration for not acknowledgeing this conflict with Al-Qaeda was a “WAR”, did this Administration acknowledge it as such. This Administration was calling it an “Overseas Contingency” not a War on Terror. Through-out 2009 this Administration refused to call this a War on Terror. That is a fact.
    .
    The whole “Shoe Bomber” versus “Undie Bomber” thing is more confusion from the White House. When the backlash from their inept handling of this attempt by a known Al-Qaeda terrorist, the Undie-Bomber, failed, this Administration quickly went to their “try him in civil court” policy. Rather than putting him into the military system, interrogate him for whatever knowledge he has about Al-Qaeda, they failed. They interrogated him for what, 20 minutes? Then they read him his “rights”. First and foremost, this is a war, he has the “right” according to the Geneva Convention to be placed under military control, interrogated, and locked away. Period. If he simply gives his rank and serial number as his only response, so be it. But we know he was singing like a bird after they picked him up. Who knows what other intel we would have gotten from him if he was treated as he should have been, a terrorist. But, what did Holden do? He gave him the same status, the same rights as I or any other CITIZEN of this country would enjoy. That is the problem, and will continue to be the problem no matter how you spin it.

  • pintortwo

    Dick Armey tells of an encounter he had with Dick Cheney (Armey was acting House Majority Leader, Cheney was VP at the time):

    Armey, a Texas Republican, had spoken out against the war. Cheney was trying to change his mind. So the vice president told him the threat from Iraq was actually “more imminent than we want to portray to the public at large.” In Armey’s account, Cheney told him:
    .
    Iraq’s “ability to miniaturize weapons of mass destruction, particularly nuclear,” had been “substantially refined since the first Gulf War,” and would soon result in “packages that could be moved even by ground personnel….We now know they have the ability to develop these weapons in a very portable fashion, and they have a delivery system in their relationship with organizations such as Al Qaeda.”
    .
    “Did Dick Cheney … purposely tell me things he knew to be untrue?” Armey said. “I seriously feel that may be the case…Had I known or believed then what I believe now, I would have publicly opposed [the war] resolution right to the bitter end, and I believe I might have stopped it from happening.”
    (link)
    .
    .
    Watch Cheney biographer, Barton Gellman, re-tell it (@ 2:30):
    (link)
    .
    Congress’ authorization for military force swung on a Dick Cheney lie. The next time Cheney speaks in public it should be to answer “how does the defendant plead?”

  • kevin

    I can’t wait for the usual suspects here to denounce Dick Armey — who’s now the leader of the Tea Party’s Freedom Works — as “a Bush hating liberal.”

  • FlownOver

    Stuart:
    .
    Will be the death of journalism?”
    .
    Do you have some reason to think journalism – at least the ethical, professionally responsible variety – still has a pulse?
    .
    In my book this is a CONSEQUENCE of the overarching transformation of reporting, from an independent public service to an incidental component of a “profit center,” controlled by the primacy of stock prices.

  • FlownOver

    Blogwhore.

  • FlownOver

    Same blogwhore.

  • FlownOver

    Blogwhore. See above.

  • dwilde1

    @rusty, I’m nowhere near the liberal left. I don’t listen to either herd’s talking points. I find Mr. Cheney to be repugnant, and the underhanded ways he milked Mr. Bush to be sadly disturbing with regard to what they say about the state of human development as expressed in the United States government.

  • http://www.davesromanticpiano.com durangodave

    Written on the tombstone of journalism: “Both sides were equally at fault.” That tremor you feel is Thomas Jefferson spinning in his grave.

  • pintortwo

    Think about this story. This is one of the most important and sensational stories of the past decade: the Vice President of the United States lied to the House Majority Leader, knowingly, in order to trick him into supporting the invasion of another country, against his better judgment. Without this lie, we might not have invaded Iraq. Is this not treason? murder? Cheney used 9/11–the deaths of thousands of Americans and our collective pain– as a tool in order to achieve an ulterior agenda. He disrespects and insults the soldiers that sacrifice for us overseas. He committed trillion$ of our money and never explained his reasons.
    .
    Also, where is/was mainstream media? I could only find coverage in the LA Times blog, Jon Stewart, Keith Olberman and Raw Story. Places that media superstars write-off as unserious, biased, liberal-lunacy. This is a perfect illustration of where the institution of media stands.

  • spob

    KT, a question:

    When were the military commissions up and running? And even if they were up and running by the time Reid pled guilty, I dont think that the Bush Administration ever treated military commissions as a categorical imperative. And I don’t think that’s the position of the GOP now either. Military commissions have some benefit, namely that the rules of evidence are relaxed, which, of course, allows interrogation evidence not compliant with Miranda to get in. Where I think the GOP is pushing Obama here is that the lack of questioning, not the venue of the trial. I doubt the GOP would care if this guy gets LWOP in a civilian trial, just as long as he wasn’t Mirandized. The GOP, of course, will howl (and rightfully so) if this turkey gets a plea deal that allows him to get out of jail while still fogging up mirrors.

  • http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com lawyermommy

    I am going to seriously digress from the thrust of this post.

    Anytime I see Dick Cheney advocating torture and criticizing the President, I always think of Valerie Plame and what was done to her. Cheney has NO remorse, he appears to be deficient in any iota of humanity as he continues to explain, rationalize and advocate torture.

    He is not giving the Obama administration an opportunity to try a different approach from his “kill everyone twice” approach, and keeps slamming Obama’s efforts to adhere to the Rule of Law, at least to whatever extent possible. Grrr

    Anyway, this weekend, I was thinking that it might be really good if Biden and Cheney fought in a UFC type match instead of doing the talk show circuit.
    Yikes, even I am in utter shock at the uncivilized boorish suggestion that I have just written. GASP.<< feigned :)

    . HAHA

    Obviously, I need coffee and need to read something else other than anything on Cheney!

    LM

    http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/2010/02/15/stalking-criminality-the-law-and-women/

  • merelymyopinion

    I hear a dog barking, same yapping as every day. Must be Rusty.

  • dollared

    Karen, this is deeply disappointing. To be perfectly precise, Factcheck.org is making the lies of a proven war criminal – no, really, it is proven that Cheney, by his own admission on natinoal TV, directed acts of torture that are defined in US law and international law as torture – directly equivalent to the minor inaccuracies of a sitting vice president (“they are walking the streets, but those streets are in Australia and Yemen?” Is there something unique about the streets of Australia and Yemen?).

    This is simply, totally misleading. It acts to make Cheney’s scurrilous attack the equivalent of the factual defense put forth by a sitting vice president.

    Put simply, FactCheck.org is rewarding Cheney for attacking his successor based on lies. It puts a documented liar, self-dealer and criminal, whose method has always been the vicious public attack, on exactly the same plane as a the responsible public official with a longstanding reputation for honesty.

    What next? How about a nice, hand-wringing complaint about the viciousness of public discourse? Oh, that rings somewhat hollow after you call the sitting VP a liar for defending himself from a private citizen whose clear record of lies, distortions and crimes should put him in jail, rather than on the Sunday shows.

    But I guess if Cheney ever is convicted, now Biden would have to serve the time, because FactCheck and Karen
    Tumulty think these men are exactly equivalent.

    I don’t know what to say. I had faith in you during the healthcare thing. But this is more than laziness – this is misinformation. And while it may be permissible under the cowardly rules of your profession, it is not something I thought you would propagate.

    I know you get this – that the false equivalence of modern journalism very quickly turns into something that lacks all proportion, integrity and truthfulness. It rewards liars and attackers over people of good intention, courtesy and integrity.

    Please apply the same critical thinking to these issues as you brought to health care. Maybe if your peers had done so earlier, we might have saved a trillion dollars of US money, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives. In fact, maybe we would have saved ourselves the entire disaster of 2000-2008, if journalists hadn’t been so convinced that Al Gore had claimed that he had invented the internet, and that George Bush was somehow a “good guy.”

    Thanks for listening.

  • http://www.davesromanticpiano.com durangodave

    And now Cheney has publicly admitted (bragged about) commiting war crimes, and the media’s response: how is this bad for Obama and the Democrats? Our “liberal media” is really working overtime to keep our democracy safe … from liberal ideas.

  • omgamike

    Please tell me, or give me a link, when and where the U.S. Congress declared war. I sure can’t find one. Congress did authorize the use of force, but a formal declaration of war was never passed.

    Without a declaration of war, there is no “war” — and thus, no military combatants.

    Thus, this individual would have to be treated as a criminal and tried in the criminal courts.

    Finally, under U.S. law, since this individual was arrested in the United States, he must be afforded all the legal protections assured anyone else. This includes his protection against incriminating himself and his right to remain silent, as well as his right to legal counsel, provided by us if he cannot afford his own attorney.

    If our laws are to be valid and true all the time, for everyone, then they must be extended to this man also.

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