Terror Policy Clash: Robert Gibbs V. Susan Collins

Over the weekend, Maine Republican Sen. Susan Collins gave a pretty blistering address on behalf of her party.

It included this charge:

The Obama administration appears to have a blind spot when it comes to the War on Terrorism. And, because of that blindness, this administration cannot see a foreign terrorist even when he stands right in front of them, fresh from an attempt to blow a plane out of the sky on Christmas Day. There’s no other way to explain the irresponsible, indeed dangerous, decision on Abdulmutallab’s interrogation. There’s no other way to explain the inconceivable treatment of him as if he were a common criminal.

This morning, Collins, the ranking member of the Homeland Security Committee, continued her criticism, releasing a statement that earned a quick rebuttal from White House spokesman Robert Gibbs. First the Collins statement:

I remain concerned that there was no consultation with intelligence officials before the Department of Justice unilaterally decided to treat Abdulmutallab as if he were an ordinary criminal. If Abdulmutallab is now talking in the context of plea negotiations, that is, of course, welcome, but it implies that the government is willing to grant him a measure of leniency for the information he is willing to provide. We will never know whether the quality and quantity of information might have been superior had he not been given a lawyer who is now guiding him on what to reveal and what not to disclose. The lack of coordination on the front end and the inexplicable, reflexive choice to use a law enforcement approach were dangerous decisions.

Here was Gibbs response:

First, all the senior leadership in government involved in intelligence knew that Abdulmutallab was being indicted more than a day before and they supported that decision.  Those represented in the Situation Room who discussed how he would be indicted in an Article III include the following:
Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair, National Security Agency head LT General Keith Alexander, Attorney General Eric Holder, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, FBI Director Bob Mueller, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, National  Counter Terrorism Center Director Mike Leiter, National Security Advisor General Jim Jones, Central Intelligence Agency Director Leon Panetta, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton

Second, the Bush administration attempted to deny Jose Padilla access to counsel when he was detained as an “enemy combatant,” but was overruled by federal judge Michael Mukasey. Mukasey went on to become the Attorney General in the Bush Administration.  Mukasey declared that Padilla had a right to access to counsel, even when being held as an enemy combatant.  Mukasey even rejected the Bush Administration’s arguments that granting Padilla access to counsel for the purposes of contesting the factual basis of his detention would “jeopardize the two core purposes of detaining enemy combatants—gathering intelligence about the enemy, and preventing the detainee from aiding in any further attacks against America.”  If Abdulmutallab were detained as an enemy combatant, the same standard would have applied to him.   If Abdulmutallab were prosecuted in military commissions, he would also be given access to an attorney.

Third, the FBI’s current policy vis-à-vis Miranda warnings for arrests inside the United States is articulated in its Domestic Investigations and Operations Guide (DIOG), which was finalized at the end of the prior Administration, and in the Legal Handbook for Special Agents, the relevant portions of which have been in effect for many years.   This policy, which is consistent with the policy of all known U.S. law enforcement agencies, is to provide Miranda warnings prior to custodial interrogation.  As the DIOG explains (page 63), “[w]ithin the United States, Miranda warnings are required to be given prior to custodial interviews . . . .”  FBI policy also reminds agents that “standard booking questions and public safety questions” are not “interrogation” for purposes of Miranda.   In both terrorism and non-terrorism cases, the FBI’s experience has been that many defendants will talk and cooperate with the FBI after being Mirandized.

Fourth, Abdulmutallab has not been offered anything.  The Department of Justice take his cooperation “into consideration.”

Fifth, the Federal Bureau of Investigation is part of the intelligence community. Since 9/11, the FBI has made preventing terrorism its principal mission. The men and women of the FBI have disrupted plots, saved American lives, and acquired intelligence that has allowed us to take the fight to terrorists overseas. That includes the counter-terrorism professionals who were on the scene in Detroit, and those who continue to gather critical intelligence from Abdulmutallab while politicians in Washington second-guess their work.

Related Topics: robert gibbs, susan collins, terrorism, Uncategorized
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  • rustyreturns

    I guess the ladies from Maine are starting to “grow a pair” afterall. Good job, Ms Collins!!
    .
    I’ll bet her daddy told her when you have them down on their bellies don’t stop, keep on punching until they say “Uncle”.

  • rustyreturns

    “First, all the senior leadership in government involved in intelligence knew that Abdulmutallab was being indicted more than a day before and they supported that decision. Those represented in the Situation Room who discussed how he would be indicted in an Article III include the following:
    Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair, National Security Agency head LT General Keith Alexander, Attorney General Eric Holder, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, FBI Director Bob Mueller, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, National Counter Terrorism Center Director Mike Leiter, National Security Advisor General Jim Jones, Central Intelligence Agency Director Leon Panetta, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.”

    .
    Now this is a bold faced LIE. Gibbs must think people are stupid and dumb, just like Joe Klein thinks we are.
    .
    The “Undie-bomber” was captured on Christmas day. He was taken into Detroit and 50 minutes into his arraignment he was given his miranda rights. Like hell Janet Napolitano, Hillary Clinton, Bob Meuller, Eric Holder et all were patiently sitting around the “situation room table” in their Christmas attire waiting to be briefed.
    .
    BULL CRAP if I have ever heard any!!!
    .
    Did you ask Gibbs, Michael, why Napolitana, Mueller and all the rest just recently testified that they did not know anything? That they were never briefed what-so-ever?
    .
    I didn’t think so. Too hard of a question to ask someone like Gibbs who would have passed it off as a “Bush mistake” to cover his and everyone’s else’s butts.

  • http://forgottenlord.livejournal.com forgottenlord

    The biggest garbage I’ve heard about this undiebomber is the fact that it is practically an EXACT REPLICA of the Shoebomber from the way Obama v Bush handled it (in fact, Obama was better) to the rights provided to the terrorist to the location of the attack to the reasons the attack were able to happen to the source of the attack. This is the most ridiculous double standard in the history of double standards.
    .
    Whatever your opinions are about what should or shouldn’t have happened, Obama followed the precedent, I fail to see why he should be considered “weaker” on terrorism for doing so especially when the precedent was set by someone who was so heavily classified as strong on terrorism.

  • bacotawordpress

    Uhhh… how is being “read miranda rights” the same as “indicted”?

  • allthingsinaname

    “I guess the ladies from Maine are starting to “grow a pair”
    .
    If she truly was growing a pair she would defend the Constitution and the Rule of Law; as it is she comes across like a sniffling snake in the grass that she is.
    .
    Typical GOP talking points are not what it takes to govern, we saw that with Bush and Co.

  • charlieromeobravo

    Can I ask why how he was arrested is such an issue? Treating him “like a common criminal” (which is certainly not the case) hasn’t prevented us from getting intelligence from him. *Actionable* intelligence hat has already been used to make arrests.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/03/us/03terror.html?scp=1&sq=terror%20suspect&st=cse

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123301695

    This “enemy combatant” military tribunal thing that conservatives are demanding is just more fear mongering. I feel like a broken record: These guys are not super villains, we didn’t need to gut due process under the Bush administration to handle these guys and the Obama administration is proving that. We’ve handled plenty of terrorism suspects as high security criminals in civilian courts in the past just fine. Not doing something as Bush did is not grounds for immediate condemnation.

  • charlieromeobravo

    Not true. To be a good Republican you have to simultaneously claim to be a rabid patriot who loves their country more than their own life while simultaneously disdaining the fundamentally American concepts like rule of law and due process.

  • darius3

    Wow. If Gibbs is correct, then Collins just got caught in a pretty big lie here.

    Too bad Scherer doesn’t have what it takes to get to the bottom of this. Better leave that stuff to the real journalists, eh, Mikey?

  • centfan

    Rusty has a higher regard and respect for a guy who can’t light up his own underwear than he does for the FBI.

    Terrorists will always be “master criminals” to Republicans. Law enforcement of the US will always be pushovers. Rusty knows who to fear and he’s very practiced at it.

    Grow a pair, Rusty.

  • charlieromeobravo

    It’s not but don’t let that get in the way of calling anyone liars :-) It’s a basic conservative tenet: Anything done in connection with the Obama administration is wrong and/or a deception simply because it’s connected with Obama.

  • rustyreturns

    “The biggest garbage I’ve heard about this undiebomber is the fact that it is practically an EXACT REPLICA of the Shoebomber from the way Obama v Bush handled it.”

    .
    Exact? How about the difference that the shoe bomber attempted his terrorist act on 12/22/2001, just months after the inital attacks of 9/11. Big difference from 12/25/09. EIGHT YEARS LATER.
    .
    Exact? How about the difference since 12/22/01 laws have been passed by Congress that permits someone to be held as an “enemy combatant” rather than simply a criminal? BIG DIFFERENCE.
    .
    The loony left always want to compare and contrast with Bush. It is a known fact Abdullah-what-ever-his-name IS a terrorist despite how the liberals and Obama want to spin it otherwise. Despite your denial that there are many thousands if not millions of people who want to KILL Americans. Dispite the fact we are at War with Jihadist and Muslim extremists who want nothing more than to chop your head off for the hell of it.
    .
    Wake up or you will find your own family dead by their hands. Or are you like most liberals, you don’t give a rat’s ass whether your family or friends die? But, you’ll give some low life terrorist the same or better treatment than you would your fellow Americans, simply to uphold some naive ideology of yours.
    .
    You are disgusting.

  • stuartzechman

    Is this Administration’s answer to harsh criticism from Republicans on national security issues always going to be “prior Republicans did it, so it must be the right thing to do“?

  • incandenzah

    Scherer, ever the diligent stenographer, just reports. *We* get to decide who is lying, since every utterance in government is just a matter of he-said/she-said anyway (who has the time/energy to get to the bottom of it all? Far too many facts to run down and report on.). There really is no need for reporters to ferret for the truth anymore. Too old fashioned. Best to just put the arguments side-by-side, and let people choose which one they like best. Right, Michael?

  • grape_crush

    Actually, I prefer that Mikey not try to do analysis, as he doesn’t show much talent for it. Report away, Mikey…

  • charlieromeobravo

    That’s because it’s another basic Republican tenet that anyone connected with terrorism is automatically a Super Villain who is smarter, tougher, and more capable than anyone connected with a more left leaning party or administration could ever be. Only neocons know how to deal with Super Villains.

  • rustyreturns

    So far, “Yup, you got it!!”. They have new rub on tatoos on their forearms that read, “When in doubt, BLAME IT ON BUSH

  • rustyreturns

    By the way stuart, how are these cool Democrats that represent you and you voted into office working out?

  • allthingsinaname

    No it wasn’t his argument at all.
    .
    “Second, the Bush administration attempted to deny Jose Padilla access to counsel when he was detained as an “enemy combatant,” but was overruled by federal judge Michael Mukasey.”

    His argument was that the Bush Adm tried to deny Padilla counsel, but was over ruled by a Federal Judge who then became the Attorney General under Bush.

    .
    He is citing legal precedence

  • freeinpa

    “It’s a basic conservative tenet: Anything done in connection with the Obama administration is wrong and/or a deception simply because it’s connected with Obama”

    As opposed to what liberals did for 8 years with Bush? And continue to do even after he has left office. If that is to be the extent of your entire bankrupt arguments, spare us go play with your etch-a-sketch or chia pet. or Barbie and Ken dolls

  • Paul-no not that one

    This is a policy clash?

    She makes assertions -

    “there was no consultation with intelligence officials before the Department of Justice unilaterally decided to treat Abdulmutallab as if he were an ordinary criminal.”

    “government is willing to grant him a measure of leniency for the information he is willing to provide.”

    “The lack of coordination on the front end and the inexplicable, reflexive choice to use a law enforcement approach were dangerous decisions.”

    And the Whitehouse responds that the senator is wrong.

    Either she is or she isn’t.

    Great reportage. By which I mean she said/he said.

  • rustyreturns

    Hey centfan, why don’t you and ole’ charlieboy there do some liberal tea baggin on each other and run along. Let real men decide how this is should be handled.

  • charlieromeobravo

    …which would be inappropriate because didn’t leave behind anything that couldn’t be cleaned up a few minutes after the next administration took office right? I mean he only had 8 years to start two wars he couldn’t finish, formulate a terrorist detention and interrogation policy that couldn’t stand up to constitutional standards, etc… People need to be reminded of that stuff to understand how far we’ve come and how far we have yet to go to fix the problems he left behind.

  • freeinpa

    Coming from liberals who use patriotism as a punch line that is rich. Can you explain why most of the Bush policies that were so contrary to the liberals Constitution are still essentially in affect with Obama and the democrats?

    The quick answer its easier to criticize a nation than to defend one. Demos are always great at poor mouthing the US but never very good at solutions

  • diecash1

    Tea-bagging is a right wing phenomenon as you should well know…….

  • freeinpa

    Trying to get OBL using law enforcement worked well for Clinton didn’t it? If Clinton had grown a pair we probably would not have had 8 years of a war.

    Then again liberals would have had to invent something else to complain about for 8 years

  • diecash1

    Geez Rusty, you never tire of trashing the rule of law, huh? Now that’s disgusting!

  • allthingsinaname

    Exact? How about the difference that the shoe bomber attempted his terrorist act on 12/22/2001, just months after the inital attacks of 9/11. Big difference from 12/25/09. EIGHT YEARS LATER.
    .
    Exact? How about the difference since 12/22/01 laws have been passed by Congress that permits someone to be held as an “enemy combatant” rather than simply a criminal? BIG DIFFERENCE.
    .

    In the 1942 Supreme Court of the United States ruling Ex Parte Quirin, the Court uses the terms with their historical meanings to distinguish between unlawful combatants and lawful combatants:

    Unlawful combatants are likewise subject to capture and detention, but in addition they are subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals for acts which render their belligerency unlawful. The spy who secretly and without uniform passes the military lines of a belligerent in time of war, seeking to gather military information and communicate it to the enemy, or an enemy combatant who without uniform comes secretly through the lines for the purpose of waging war by destruction of life or property, are familiar examples of belligerents who are generally deemed not to be entitled to the status of prisoners of war, but to be offenders against the law of war subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals.(Emphasis added)
    .
    In the wake of the September 11, 2001 attacks the United States Congress passed a resolution known as the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists (AUMF) on September 18, 2001[4], wherein the Congress invoked the War Powers Resolution. Using this authorization granted to him by Congress, on November 13, 2001, President Bush issued a Presidential Military Order: “Detention, Treatment, and Trial of Certain Non-Citizens in the War Against Terrorism”[5]. The administration chose to call those who it detained under the Presidential Military Orders “enemy combatants”. Since then, the administration has formalized its usage of the term by using it specifically for detained alleged members and supporters of al-Qaida or the Taliban. For example

    Under the provisions of the Secretary of the Navy Memorandum Implementation of Combatant Status Review Tribunal Procedures for Enemy Combatant Detained at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base Cuba … An enemy combatant has been defined as “an individual who was part of or supporting the Taliban or al Qaida forces, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners. This includes any person who committed a belligerent act or has directly supported hostilities in aid of enemy armed forces.” [6]

    .
    That should solve your problem Rusty

  • diecash1

    “Trying to get OBL using law enforcement worked well for Clinton didn’t it?”
    ..
    What, you mean that W’s methods were so successful? Right………use 9/11 to start a war of choice in Iraq, drop the ball on Afghanistan, allow Bin Laden to slip away when we had him trapped………real success stories there.
    ..
    #FAIL#

  • freeinpa

    charlieromeobr…

    “I mean he only had 8 years to start two wars he couldn’t finish”

    What is the exit plan for the liberals “war on poverty” ( at least there is one war they support) how many years has that run? It seems they have committed trillions at this point with no better result or end in sight. How many have died from poverty?

    Ah but yes liberal intention were good. It is just your solutions and policy that suck.

  • shepherdwong

    It turns out that that back in December 2001, Richard Reid — the “shoe bomber” — was read or reminded of his Miranda rights four times in two days, beginning five minutes after being taken into custody.

    .
    Me, I just can’t wait to hear what the next hypocritical Republican liar (I repeat myself) has to say about the Obama Administration.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    The facts on the ground tend to indicate that Bush deserved what he got. Well, actually, he didn’t. He deserved to be impeached and jailed – if not shot – but, still, the criticism, when it finally came, was well earned.
    .
    Need I repeat the list of charges? Lied us into a war. Tortured prisoners. Spied on Americans. Exploded the deficit. Ad nauseum.

  • freeinpa

    diecash1

    “What, you mean that W’s methods were so successful?”

    No, but even a knucklehead like you can figure out it would have been easier to get Bin Laden when he was offered on a silver platter than in trying to find him in mountains and caves in Afghanistan/akistan or wherever he is hiding.

    Well maybe you can’t!

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    > patriotism as a punch line
    .
    I’m going to ask for a citation, here.
    .
    > Bush policies that were so contrary to the liberals Constitution are still essentially in affect with Obama and the democrats
    .
    Isn’t that, by itself, indication that, just maybe, Obama isn’t as “liberal” as all you mouth-frothers scream? Doesn’t matter. He’s not an ‘R’, therefore he’s evil incarnate.

  • grape_crush

    Funny how statements of fact can get twisted into tangential questions such as that, isn’t it, Stuart? Gibbs’ response is more about hypocrisy than validation.
    .
    If Gibbs’ response actually did contain material that would make that a valid question, the response would be that “a Republican taking a Democratic administration to task for the same policies and practices enacted under a Republican administration is breathtaking in its hypocrisy.”
    .
    The corollary to that response is “if current practice was not at issue previously, what makes it wrong now? Were you afraid to speak out against a Republican administration?”

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    Yeah, but, see, if we classify him as an “enemy combatant,” then we can send him to foreign countries where Uncle Dick can personally oversee his “aggressive interrogation”. That’s the _only_ way we can make sure America stays safe from its enemies.

  • charlieromeobravo

    lol. Careful Allthings, if you keep pointing out things like that then it ruins their narrative. Oabama is a socialist monarchical dictator bent on destroying America, even when he’s behaving in ways that conservatives would approve of if it wasn’t him.

  • diecash1

    I can play that game…..
    ..
    Even an abject moron such as yourself can see that neither Clinton or W got the job done yet W caused immensely more collateral damage to America, Iraq, Afghanistan, et al. though little seems to penetrate that dim intellect of yours……

  • pintortwo

    Michael, it’s OK for you to say that Collins is full of it. We’d respect you for taking a stand against conventional village wisdom.
    .
    Please read this article (link), it shows how an expert in Constitutional Law, one unafraid to question the Establishment (once a job for journalists), might proceed. A sample:
    .
    (T)here was one claim (by Collins) in particular that deserves serious attention, as it has become one of the most pervasive myths in our political discourse: namely, that the U.S. Constitution protects only American citizens, and not any dreaded foreigners. Focusing on the DOJ’s decision to charge the alleged attempted Christmas Day bomber with crimes, Mirandize him and provide him with counsel, Collins railed: “Once afforded the protection our Constitution guarantees American citizens, this foreign terrorist ‘lawyered up’ and stopped talking”. This notion that the protections of the Bill of Rights specifically and the Constitution generally apply only to the Government’s treatment of American citizens is blatantly, undeniably false — for multiple reasons — yet this myth is growing, as a result of being centrally featured in “War on Terror” propaganda.
    .
    And this is propaganda. Please stop being complicit.

  • apr2563

    rusty you are a sad person. Chill out. I am a liberal as are many on this site and I firmly believe none of us wish harm to anyone.

  • apr2563

    rusty, again chill. You shouldn’t be fantasizing about teabagging.

  • chupkar

    You know what is funny. I didn’t see who the poster was of #2, but thought, “oh, this must be rusty” and whatdayaknow……

  • apr2563

    Michael is being passive aggressive again. Just has to post the Snowe video, giving it undeserved replay. He could have stated the differences less dramatically and then done some actual reporting about the accuracy of Snowe and Gibbs.

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    “Oabama is a socialist monarchical dictator bent on destroying America”
    .
    Damn allthings, glad to see you’re finally gettin’ it!
    Except you spelled Obama wrong.

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    Sorry allthings. I meant to say charlie.

  • billysumo

    many of the comments are disheartening and degrading. For the important perspective, here are the comments from the bench by Judge William Young who tried Richard Reid, the undie-bomber. Worth reading to remind all of us of the American tradition of law:

    “There is all too much war talk here. And I say that to everyone with the utmost respect. Here in this court where we deal with individuals as individuals, and care for individuals as individuals, as human beings we reach out for justice.
    You are not an enemy combatant. You are a terrorist.
    You are not a soldier in any war. You are a terrorist.
    To give you that reference, to call you a soldier gives you far too much stature.
    Whether it is the officers of government who do it or your attorney who does it, or that happens to be your view, you are a terrorist. And we do not negotiate with terrorists. We do not treat with terrorists. We do not sign documents with terrorists. We hunt them down one by one and bring them to justice.
    So war talk is way out of line in this court. You’re a big fellow. But you’re not that big. You’re no warrior. I know warriors. You are a terrorist. A species of criminal guilty of multiple attempted murders. In a very real sense Trooper Santiago had it right when first you were taken off that plane and into custody and you wondered where the press and where the TV crews were and he said you’re no big deal.
    You’re no big deal…
    It seems to me you hate the one thing that to us is most precious. You hate our freedom. Our individual freedom. Our individual freedom to live as we choose, to come and go as we choose, to believe or not believe as we individually choose. Here, in this society, the very winds carry freedom. They carry it everywhere from sea to shining sea.
    It is because we prize individual freedom so much that you are here in this beautiful courtroom. So that everyone can see, truly see that justice is administered fairly, individually, and discretely. It is for freedom’s seek that your lawyers are striving so vigorously on your behalf and have filed appeals, will go on in their, their representation of you before other judges. We care about it. Because we all know that the way we treat you, Mr. Reid, is the measure of our own liberties.
    Make no mistake though. It is yet true that we will bear any burden; pay any price, to preserve our freedoms. Look around this courtroom. Mark it well. The world is not going to long remember what you or I say here. Day after tomorrow it will be forgotten. But this, however, will long endure. Here, in this courtroom, and courtrooms all across America, the American people will gather to see that justice, individual justice, justice, not war, individual justice is in fact being done.
    The very President of the United States through his officers will have to come into courtrooms and lay out evidence on which specific matters can be judged, and juries of citizens will gather to sit and judge that evidence democratically, to mold and shape and refine our sense of justice.
    See that flag, Mr. Reid? That’s the flag of the United States of America. That flag will fly there long after this is all forgotten. That flag still stands for freedom. You know it always will. Custody, Mr. Officer. Stand him down.”

  • shepherdwong

    Trouble is, it’s their propaganda.

    “…at some point it became clear that the consensus of official Washington, including many Democrats, the scribblers at Kaplan Test Prep Daily, the Great Minds at Very Serious Think Tanks, and guests at Sally Quinn’s table dancing parties, is that torture is awesome, the rule of law only applies to Al Gore, Bill Clinton’s penis, and all people who don’t have important DC jobs, and all it takes to nullify the constitution is to call someone a terraist.”
    –Atrios, via Greenwald

    .
    The first decision Obama made was specifically to not take on the Village CW (and he and the entire Democratic Party seem to be willing to pay a huge price in popularity to do so). What makes you think Mikey has the cajones, or any interest, in doing so? He know as well as anyone, the price of such heresy.

  • pintortwo

    I will also add this article, again from Greenwald, which discusses many conventional thinkers, Joe Klein included. Basically, he condemns many democrats, village liberals (like Joe ie. not really liberal- only when convenient), progressives and media stars for hypocrisy. Right before the bellow, he highlights a Richard Cohen article- but its contents could have come from any of a majority of today’s newsies or politicians (across the political spectrum); including Joe, Michael, or Collins:
    .
    Leave aside that Bush — like Obama — also tried some accused Terrorists in civilian trials and some before military commissions. Leave aside that the second-term Bush — like Obama — withdrew authorization for waterboarding. Leave aside the factually inaccurate claim that Obama is “ensuring that everyone gets the benefit of American civil liberties” when he is, in fact, detaining many people without any charges at all and putting many others before military commissions.
    .
    Beyond all those factual errors, look at what Cohen is saying: Bush “soiled America’s image,” but what he did was right, just and necessary, and Obama should follow that — which is essentially what many Democratic Party and media elites are saying as well. Seriously: if you were a Bush follower, wouldn’t you feel as though you were owed a major apology for all the accusations and the fuss that came from Democrats and media figures, accusing you of supporting radical and Constitution-shredding policies when, it turns out, they actually crave those policies in order to feel safe? Doesn’t all of this bolster the Republican claim that those attacks on the Bush administration for civil liberties abuses were not due to genuine conviction, but rather for partisan gain (in the case of Democratic officials) and cheap, preening, wet-finger-in-the-air moralizing (in the case of media stars)?

    (link)

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    Snowe?

  • merelymyopinion

    You sound a little het up there, dude. Sounds like you could use a popsicle.

  • kevin

    “Can you explain why most of the Bush policies that were so contrary to the liberals Constitution are still essentially in affect with Obama and the democrats?”
    .
    I’m sorry, but you conservatives need to pick an argument and stick with it.
    .
    Is Obama making a radical departure from the Bush policies, and thereby putting us all at risk from the horde of Islamocommienazi underwear bombers?
    .
    Or has he kept in place a lot of Bush policies, and approached the issue of terrorism much as his predecessor did?
    .
    Sorry, it can’t be both.

  • constantweader

    Collins obviously has no idea what she’s talking about. She made multiple misstatements of fact. In addition, she has demonstrated she has no respect for the Constitution she has taken an oath to uphold. Moreover, Abdulmutallab has apparently been singing like a Tweety bird, proving the intelligence community used excellent judgment AND they followed the Constitution.

    Finally, as our former President said (in his case, untruthfully) WE DON’T TORTURE.

    How many ways does Collins need to be wrong before she’ll apologize? Or at least issue an Emily Litella “Nevermind”?

    The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com

  • spob

    These guys are thin-skinned. First of all, Obama’s best hope is that the Christmas bomber fades from the headlines. He’s lost the debate here–it’s time to move on. Engaging Collins is just plain dumb–it keeps an issue alive that is hurting them. Second of all, why does Obama want to antagonize Collins. She is a very important vote. Why not let her blow off some steam?

  • freeinpa

    Mr. Nice Guy

    “Lied us into a war. Tortured prisoners. Spied on Americans. Exploded the deficit. Ad nauseum.”

    Priceless drivel from liberals. Seems there were Democrats who voted for war and repeated the same “lies” that Bush supposedly told us.

    Spied on Americans I do believe that was for mthe Patriot Act which I believe despite overwhelming control of the legislative process still remian in effect.

    Exploded the deficit- Not nearly to the extent thtat Obama has.

    Since Obama has lied about well pretty much everything, he is spying on Americans and has exploded the deficit, will we hear your call for Obama to be impeached jailed and shot? Or are you just stuck on mindless bilespewing crap that has pre-occupied liberasl for th elast 40 years.

  • kevin

    So far in this thread, he’s fantasizing about tea-bagging *and* getting some guy belly-down on the ground and pounding him. I think we might finally be seeing where a lot of his issues stem from.

  • shepherdwong

    Oh yes, it’s just a terrible story for…Obama:

    Susan Collins is on MSNBC right now trying to justify her earlier criticisms of Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab’s interrogation after new information has emerged suggesting that putting him through the Court system has actually revealed quite good intelligence. Now she’s upset that the right intelligence officials weren’t consulted. She’s truly an embarrassment.
    .
    Can’t we at least get a senator who’s on top of the latest demagoguery on this issue to dish out the bamboozlement?
    .
    Josh Marshall</a

  • pintortwo

    spot-on spob. I think he lost the debate as soon as he (Gibbs) decided to participate. I’d like to see someone in the mainstream debate Collins… and a pony.

  • kevin

    Excellent sentiments. Nice to see someone out there understands the rule of law and what makes this country so great.
    .
    Before rusty and the rest of the mouth-breathers start trashing this judge as some kind of hippie liberal, let me point out he’s an Army veteran who was appointed to the federal bench by Ronald Reagan.

  • freeinpa

    Mr. Nice Guy:

    Gee no runs no hits only errors today. That’s what happens when you have to go beyond dimwitted liberal talking points.

    No it doesn’t mean Obama is not a liberal but merely incompetent. His administration while sounding like Clint Eastwood on the campaign trail became Elmer Fudd when the reality of having to make a decision dealing with the safety of this country. This is a guy in way over his pay grade. It took him 6 months to pick out a dog. Protecting this country he can’t begin to comprehend..

  • pintortwo

    ooh, shep. Is someone at MSNBC debating Collins? Well, I’d like my pony to be dappled with a long mane.

  • mikew67

    translation;

    “I don’t trust our 2.4 century-proven criminal justice system, at all. I want torture. Why, it’s our SECURITY we’re talking about. TURRISTS!!!”

    “Oh, and I am determined at all costs that Americans fend for themselves against the corrupt health insurers. I don’t care that working people everywhere else in the first world get routine care while tens of millions from a duped American electorate, still do not.”

    This woman, and her party, are truly ignorant. She must have been one of the pollees in the just-out Kos poll on Republican void of basic factual knowledge…

  • kevin

    “He’s lost the debate here”
    .
    How exactly?
    .
    It’s come to light that (a) what they did with the undie-bomber was exactly what the Bush administration did with every single terrorist it apprehended on American soil and (b) what they did has yielded good intelligence.
    .
    Sounds like he’s clearly won the debate, despite what the know-nothings say.

  • freeinpa

    “hen we can send him to foreign countries where Uncle Dick can personally oversee his “aggressive interrogation”
    ==
    A better idea is Obama could lecture them and he could die from boredom or write a stern letter and he can die from laughter just as Iraq, N. Korea, Russia and China are now doing.

  • spob

    sw, this is not a winning issue for Obama–get that right. And they shouldn’t be crowing about the intel they’ve gotten. Why let our enemies know?
    .
    Making Collins look dumb isn’t really the point, is it? You’re gonna need her, and fighting her just isn’t smart politics. But hey, you guys couldn’t even get HCR passed with 60 f’in Senators. But what do I know?

  • kevin

    It seems that the new conservative motto is:
    .
    “THESE COLORS DON’T RUN. BUT THE URINE STAIN IN MY PANTS DOES.”
    .
    Sweet Jesus, conservatives. Sack up.

  • msfreeh

    From 1990-2001 a conference was sited every year at Bates College in Lewiston Maine . The conference was sponsored by Professor Steve Hochstadt of the Bates History Department.
    The conference looked at crimes committed by FBI agents.
    Senator Collins was invited to attend every year or send a representative.She refused. Here is information from the conference including FBI agents engaging in voter fraud.
    google leonard gates bob draise fbi voter fraud

    to view a partial list of crimes committed by FBI agents over 1500 pages long see
    forums.signonsandiego.com/showthread.php?t=59139

    to view a partial list of FBI agents arrested for pedophilia see
    dallasnews.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3574

  • shepherdwong

    Is someone at MSNBC debating Collins?
    .
    No one needs to debate Collins. She’s proved herself to be a moron, in addition to hypocrite and liar, all by herself.

  • kevin

    Yeah, Obama sure can’t protect this country. That’s why 9/11 happened on his watch, right? And remember how he bungled the Katrina response? What a clown.

  • freeinpa

    diecash1:

    “Tea-bagging is a right wing phenomenon as you should well know”

    Yes Rusty you should know that douchbagging is the province of the left.
    ==
    “Even an abject moron such as yourself can see that neither Clinton or W got the job done yet W caused immensely more collateral damage to America, Iraq, Afghanistan, et al. though little seems to penetrate that dim intellect of yours……”

    And we hit the old fall back, name calling since you have no rational argument or defense. If OBL was taken into custody by Clinton why would there be any collateral damage from searching for him in Afghanistan and Iraq if HE WAS IN U.S. CUSTODY.
    ==

    Stick to the liberal script name call degrade then for good measure throw out the race card. That way people can only assume your clueless instead of you removing any doubt

    \

  • mikew67

    **She is a very important vote.**

    You mean as a goose-stepping GOP neo-fascist that rubberstamped the corrupt Bush regime, and has delivered nothing but kicking, screaming opposition to the obviously necessary change in approach under Obama?

    That kind of important vote? Collins is a joke and complete abomination. As is her Politburo.

  • rustyreturns

    Ya better lay off that wacky weed you are smokin there apr2563, your brain is beginning to die darlin!!
    .
    Ms Collins might have something to slap you around with by not giving her the credit which is her due!
    .
    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  • freeinpa

    The mentally exhausted and morally bankrupt left are back to pathetic name calling. Yes the “brain dead” public has just realized they were duped by a lying President and that the policies he and the Dumo Congress are crap and they are revolting.

    Keep the name calling because nobody cares!

  • rustyreturns

    Yea msfreeh, I suppose after liberals have trashed the CIA, now you are going to go for the FBI.
    .
    Great job!!

  • apr2563

    If you watch the Cspan coverage of the Senate, you will notice a pattern with Collins and Snowe. They usually wait until most of the voting is done and then vote. Have to see how that wind is blowing. There is even a sense they are out waiting each other. I recall a vote where Collins voting differently than Snowe planned and she was angry.
    The Collins, Libermann, and Snowe menage de trois that sadly are all that is left of what used to be proud NE liberal Republicans. Or, so the pundits think. That trio were never liberal. Excuse me, Lieberman now belongs to the Lieberman party which has been usurped by somebody else. He may become a Republican he says…PLEASE.

  • diecash1

    Freeper – I realize that you’re quite dim but Rusty brought up tea-bagging and you started the name calling in the thread as per usual but don’t let the facts get in the way of your ranting.
    ..
    I guess it’s readily apparent to all the commenters here that YOU are the one that is “mentally exhausted and morally bankrupt.”

  • apr2563

    Kevin, there does to be a real concern by Rusty and others to prove their manliness.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    Comments, rusty? freeper? Yeah, I suspect you’ll be disappointed that this “liberal” judge didn’t pull out a revolver right then and there and plug him one. Heck, that he was even brought to court in the first place was a threat to our freedom, and a slap in the face to all right-thinking Americans, right?

  • mikew67

    …hey, let’s just listen to Susan and the failed GOP, and go back to cut taxes/cut govt that we tried for the 3 decades of the Reagan/Bush era. In fact, let’s get ANOTHER big tax cut to the wealthiest as we did in 1981 and 2001.

    I mean, that worked SO well to deliver trickle down prosperity. Almost nobody is unemployed now. And the banks and health insurers, heck – they POLICED THEMSELVES!!! Get government out of the WAY by golly!

    …did you know most teabaggers think Hitler was a socialist?

    …can you spell i-g-n-o-r-a-n-t?

    Abe Lincoln would have said;
    “You can fool some of the people, ALL of the time”… ;^)

  • apr2563

    sthird: you are right, should be Collins.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    > mentally exhausted and morally bankrupt left are back to pathetic name calling
    .
    Whoosh. Hear that? Irony – right over your head, freeper. Keep an eye out for it.

  • apr2563

    rusty characterize that laugh for me:
    robust, manly?
    maniac hysterical?
    little girl giggle?

  • kevin

    “The mentally exhausted and morally bankrupt left are back to pathetic name calling.”
    .
    I thought you were a big fan of pathetic name calling, freeinpa? Here’s some of your work in this thread:.
    .
    “spare us go play with your etch-a-sketch or chia pet. or Barbie and Ken dolls”
    .
    “Obama has lied about well pretty much everything”
    .
    “liberals who use patriotism as a punch line”
    .
    “dimwitted liberal talking points.”
    .
    “even a knucklehead like you”
    .
    “douchbagging is the province of the left.”
    .
    “Yes the “brain dead” public has just realized they were duped by a lying President and that the policies he and the Dumo Congress are crap and they are revolting.”
    .
    Sorry for all the name calling. We’re just trying to speak your language, but didn’t realized you were so easily offended.
    .
    Since you can give it but not take it, why don’t you go clutch your pearls on the fainting couch, princess?

  • pintortwo

    “He’s lost the debate here”
    .
    How exactly?

    .
    .
    Kevin, I feel this way too because the debate will take place in the main-media. The majority of MSM folks have already decided that Obama has lost, while most bloggers have decided he won– no matter what Gibbs says.The MSM reaches more people, therefore, Obama lost (God, I sound cynical). Plus I agree with spob that his best choice would have been to leave Collins alone (not focus on winning the battle, but on winning the war, so to speak) and (perhaps not like spob) let guys like Greenwald trash her.

  • rustyreturns

    Oh poor little ap’er, want me to stick a fork in ya to see if your done cooking your brain yet?

  • kevin

    I understand that perspective, but I disagree. The media loves a fight, so they’ll follow this. And if so, the facts are clearly on Obama’s side.

  • msfreeh

    As I said in my previous post Maine US Senator Susan Collins refused to attend our conference dealing with crimes committed by FBI agents.
    Some of the material presented here is taken from a conference held in New England
    from 1989-2002 that looked at crimes committed by FBI agents. In 1989 we brought
    an honor roll list of speakers to the conference that included Pulitzer prize winning reporter Ross Gelbspan ; former FBI agents Wesley
    Swearingen, John Ryan, Suzane Doucette, Frederick Whitehurst, Tyronne Powers ; lawyers John DeCamp, Ray Kohlman ,William Pepper, Joan Gibbs,
    Faye Williams, John Clarke Steve Kohn professors Bud Schultz, Steve Hochstadt, Roger Bowen ; black panther Darruba Bin Wahid ; filmakers, Roz Payne, Curtis Henderson and survivors of FBI assassination attempts Scott Camil, Professor Mike Avey, Frank Wilkinson, Daryl Cherney. We also brought Oklahoma State
    Representative Charles Key, Oklahoma City bombing Grand Jury member Hoppy Heidelberg, Police Officer Mike Ruppert and others. The focus of
    the conference was to present evidence that the organizational model of the FBI is that of a Death Squad posing as a law enforcement agency. We presented prima facie evidence linking FBI agents to the creation, and cover up of the President Kennedy assassination, Martin Luther King assassination, voter fraud in Cincinnati, involvement in organized pedophilia, the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, Oklahoma City bombing.

    One of the conference organizers went on to videotape the historic 911 press conference organized by Kyle Hence and others in July of 2002 at the National Press Club in Washington DC and made it possible for Kyle to meet Danny Schecter at Globalvision in New York, where they went on to produce the documentary 911PRESS FOR TRUTH. http://www.911pressfortruth.com

    SUGGESTED READING LIST
    annotated bibliography

    Bari, Judi. TIMBER WARS. Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1994.
    The F.B.I. attempted to stop the political activity of Judi Bari and Daryl Cherney by exploding a
    bomb under their car. Daryl Cherney and Judi Bari filed a Civil lawsuit
    against the FBI and Oakland police. A jury awarded them $4.4 million
    dollars in 2003. see http://www.judibari.org

    Bowen Roger. INNOCENCE IS NOT ENOUGH: The Life and Death of Herbert Norman
    New York USA M.E. Sharpe Inc 1988
    Looks at FBI assassination of Herbert Norman, Canadian Ambassador to Egypt.

    Buitrago, Ann Mari. F.B.I. FILES. Grove Press, 1981.
    Covers the procedures for obtaining and interpreting your F.B.I. file.

    Burnham, David. ABOVE THE LAW. Scribner, 1996.
    Looks at secret deals and fixing of cases by the Justice Department for corporations.
    Burnham was the New York Times reporter who broke the story about New York City cop Serpico and Police corruption.
    He was the reporter on route to meet Karen Silkwood when she was found murdered. Read his other book A LAW UNTO ITSELF.
    It details how FBI agents collaborate with the IRS to target political activists.
    see his important website about the FBI
    here http://trac.syr.edu/

    Burnham, David A LAW UNTO ITSELF Vintage January 30, 1991 ISBN-10: 0679732837
    Exposes FBI agents using the IRS to cripple political activists.

    Buttino, Frank. A SPECIAL AGENT. William Morrow, 1993.
    Investigates F.B.I. attacks on gay FBI agents .
    This book is written by a FBI agent who is gay. It details how other FBI agents tormented him .

    Carson, Clayborne. MALCOLM X: THE F.B.I. FILE. Carroll & Graf, 1991.
    Looks at the evidence for the F.B.I. assassination of Malcolm X.

    Cashill,Jack, Sanders,James. FIRST STRIKE Thomas Nelson Press, 2003
    Overwhelming evidence presented by Dr. Cashill on the downing of TWA Flight 800 by a missle over Long Island and the ensuing cover-up by FBI agents.One of my favorite books. see their documentary about the same subject called SILENCED here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7Nm2Ql1-qk

    Charns, Alexander. CLOAK AND GAVEL. University of Illinois Press. 1992.
    After reviewing thousands of pages of FBI documents the attorney author exposes the FBI illegal phone tapping of the Supreme Court and how the FBI fix court cases and work behind the scenes to get “their man” appointed to the Supreme Court. Written by a lawyer active in Human
    Rights.

  • msfreeh

    Churchill, Ward. AGENTS OF REPRESSION. South End Press, 1988.
    Professor Churchill gives first hand accounts of F.B.I. death squad activities. This book is a classic and is a must read along with THE COINTELPRO PAPERS

    Churchill, Ward. THE COINTELPRO PAPERS. South End Press, 1990.
    Explores how the F.B.I. disrupts legitimate political activities and engage in Death Squad activities.

    Criley, Richard. THE F.B.I. VS. THE FIRST AMENDMENT. First Amendment Foundation, 1990.
    Looks at the destruction of the First Amendment by the F.B.I.

    Davis, John. MAFIA KINGFISH: CARLOS MARCELLO AND THE ASSASSINATION OF JOHN F.
    KENNEDY. McGraw-Hill, 1989.
    A must read book in understanding how the FBI has used the Mafia to carry out the assassination of President Kennedy.

    De Camp, John. THE FRANKLIN COVERUP. AWT Publishers, 1992.
    A former Republican state senator from Nebraska writes about a
    pedophile ring involved in the kidnaping, sexual torture and murder of
    children that went all the way to the Bush White House.
    Attorney DeCamp discusses the FBI role in the coverup of this case and
    the murder of a special prosecutor appointed to investigate the
    pedophile ring.This book will keep you awake at night and is an active
    barometer for evil indexing how the FBI crime family operates.

    Dempsey, James X. and David Cole. TERRORISM AND THE CONSTITUTION: SACRIFICING CIVIL
    LIBERTIES IN THE NAME OF NATIONAL SECURITY. Los Angeles, CA: First Amendment
    Foundation, 1999. Examines FBI campaign of terror to undermine civil
    liberties. Attorney Dempsey worked for Congressman Don Edwards who was
    a former FBI agent.

    Diamond, Sigmund. COMPROMISED CAMPUS. Oxford University Press, 1992.
    Professor Diamond attempts to get F.B.I. files showing collaboration
    between F.B.I. agents and professors at universities from 1945-1955.
    The FBI created the Patriot Act , in part, because of this book.

    Donner, Frank. PROTECTORS OF PRIVILEGE. University of California Press, 1990.
    Looks at the death squad collaboration between local police and F.B.I. agents to stifle the Bill of Rights.

    Dwyer, James. TWO SECONDS UNDER THE WORLD. Diane publishers 1997.
    The most important book you will read on understanding FBI agents Floyd
    and Anticev creating the 1993 terrorist act at the World Trade Center.
    This book lays out in detail how the FBI engineered
    the 1993 World Trade Center explosion.

    Emerson, Steven and Brian Duffy. THE FALL OF PAN AM 103. G.B. Putnam’s Sons, 1990.
    Oliver Revell was the number 2 man at the F.B.I. until he was demoted
    by F.B.I. Director William Sessions to the Dallas Field Office. His son
    Chris Revell had tickets for
    Pan Am 103, but he changed his flight two days before the plane
    exploded over Lockerbie, Scotland. See Ross Gelbspan’s book, BREAK-INS,
    DEATH THREATS AND THE FBI to get a fuller picture of Oliver Revell.

    Foerstel, Herbert. SURVEILLANCE IN THE STACKS. Greenwood Press, 1991.
    Looks at attempts by the F.B.I. to get librarians to spy on the American public .The FBI created the Library
    Clauses in the Patriot Act because of this book.

    Gallagher, Dorothy. ALL THE RIGHT ENEMIES. Penguin Books, 1988.
    The F.B.I. utilized the Mafia to carry out its executions against Presidents and political activists from 1930 through 2000.
    Carlos Tresca was one of their victims.

    Gelbspan, Ross. BREAK- INS, DEATH THREATS, AND THE F.B.I. South End Press, 1991.
    This Pulitzer Prize winning reporter formerly with the Boston Globe,
    details the F.B.I. death squad collaboration with the death squads in
    El Salvador and their attacks upon American groups opposed to those
    death squads.

    Glick, Brian. WAR AT HOME. South End Press, 1989.
    Attorney Glick details the F.B.I.’s covert war against political activists.

    Hoffman, David. THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING AND THE POLITICS OF TERROR. Feral
    House, 1998.
    Contains detailed evidence about the FBI alliance with the terrorist
    underworld, and how FBI agent provocateurs are behind many of the
    current bombings that have plagued the United States since the fall of
    the Berlin Wall. Some current thinking has FBI agents creating these
    acts to fill the void caused by the downfall of communism and replacing
    communism with the new boogeyman Islam.

    Hougan, Jim. SPOOKS. William Morrow, 1978.
    Important book detailing the life of former F.B.I. agent Robert Maheux
    and his relationship with the Mafia. Groundbreaking book in
    understanding FBI collaboration with the Mafia, using it to carry out
    assassinations on President Kennedy, Martin Luther King and others.
    Maheux was the liason between the Mafia and the FBI when the FBI assassinated President Kennedy and Martin Luther King.

    Kaiser, Marty . Odyssey of an Eavesdropper( My Life in electronic
    countermeasures and my battle against the FBI) W Carroll & Graf 2005
    Author exposes wiretapping crimes committed by FBI agents as well as
    Business Fraud. He built the wiretapping devices for FBI agents that
    were later used in crimes committed against people like Martin Luther
    King and public officials.After exposing FBI agents kickback schemes to
    Congress the author became a target of retaliation by tax payer funded
    FBI agents. see http://www.martykaiser.com/odyssey2.htm

    Keith, Jim. OK BOMB. Illuminate, 1996.
    Explores FBI coverup in the Oklahoma City bombing investigation.

    Kelly, John F. TAINTING EVIDENCE. The Free Press 1998. The book is
    based on testimony of FBI lab Whistleblower Dr. Frederick Whitehurst ,
    an employee of the FBI for 17 years. Shows how bad the FBI Lab is run.
    Dr. Whitehurst was the chemist who analyzed Timothy McVeigh’s clothes
    for traces of ammonium nitrate and was removed from the case when he
    did not find any bomb residue.
    see
    http://www.whistleblowers.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=65&Itemid=108

    Lehr, Dick & O’Neill, Gerard. BLACK MASS. Public Affairs, 2000.
    Looks at the FBI’s collaboration in Boston with the Mafia and Irish Mob
    between 1960 and 2001 in which they collaborated in the murder of 21
    women,children and men. Important book showing how the FBI uses the
    Mafia to commit political and other assassinations .see
    http://www.thebrothersbulger.com/

    Melanson, Phillip. THE MURKIN CONSPIRACY. Praeger, 1989.
    Professor Melanson looks at the F.B.I.’s role in the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

    Melanson, Phillip. THE ROBERT KENNEDY ASSASSINATION. Shapolsky, 1991.
    Professor Melanson was in charge of the Robert Kennedy archives at the University of Massachusetts.
    He detailed the F.B.I.’s role as one of the principal architects in the assassination of Robert Kennedy.

    Messerschmidt, Jim. THE TRIAL OF LEONARD PELTIER. South End Press, 1983.
    Looks at the miscarriage of justice in the F.B.I.’s handling of the Leonard Peltier case.

    Oklahoma City Bombing Investigative Committee. THE FINAL REPORT.2001.
    The book providing evidence of FBI involvement in the Oklahoma City
    Bombing .

    Navasky, Victor. INVESTIGATING THE F.B.I. Doubleday, 1973.
    Contains material presented at a major conference at Princeton University in 1971 investigating
    crimes committed by the FBI.

  • rustyreturns

    “…hey, let’s just listen to Susan and the failed GOP, and go back to cut taxes/cut govt that we tried for the 3 decades of the Reagan/Bush era. In fact, let’s get ANOTHER big tax cut to the wealthiest as we did in 1981 and 2001.
    .
    I mean, that worked SO well to deliver trickle down prosperity. Almost nobody is unemployed now. And the banks and health insurers, heck – they POLICED THEMSELVES!!! Get government out of the WAY by golly!
    .
    …did you know most teabaggers think Hitler was a socialist?”

    .
    Hey there Einstein, did you know that Hitler did in fact align himself with the German Socialist Party when he initially set up the Nazis? Yup. (DOH!!) it’s true!!
    .
    Oh and how’s that big “middle-class tax cut” that Barack the Magic President set up for ya? Has it stimulated the economy yet? Or has it just “created or saved a few jobs”?
    .
    http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/party.htm
    .

    “To ease concerns among potential middle-class nationalist supporters, Drexler made clear that unlike Marxists, the party supported middle-class citizens, and that the party’s socialist policy was meant to give social welfare to German citizens deemed part of the Aryan race.”

    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party
    .
    Wow, that sounds sorta familiar doesn’t it, Einstein? Kinda sounds like what Obama has been saying ever since he hit the scene back in 2006, right after he gave that big speech that Hillary said made him famous about the Iraq War.
    .
    How’s those socialists in Obama’s Administration doin’ for ya now, Einstein???
    .
    Can we have a few “hell yea’s” from Van Jones, anyone???!!!!!!!

  • msfreeh

    Neff, James. MOBBED UP. Dell Publishers 1988.
    Important book in understanding FBI collaboration with the Mafia
    especially how the Bureau uses the Mafia to carry out its political
    assassinations.

    Nelson, Jack. THE F.B.I. AND THE BERRIGANS. Coward, McCann & Geoghegan, 1972.
    Looks at F.B.I. death squad directed against Nobel Peace Prize nominee Phil Berrigan and his
    brother, Jesuit priest Daniel Berrigan.

    Olsen, Jack. LAST MAN STANDING: THE TRAGEDY AND TRIUMPH OF GERONIMO PRATT.
    Doubleday, 2000.
    Provides supporting evidence for the idea of the F.B.I. as a death
    squad. Examines the F.B.I. acts of genocide against Afro-Americans .
    Looks at how FBI agents framed Geronimo Pratt, a Afro American Viet-nam
    vet who spent over 25 years in prison before a judge released him
    saying he was innocent and framed by FBI agents.
    Vermont filmaker has issued a 4 DVD collection of her films
    about the Black Panthers. She interviews retired FBI agent
    Wesley Swearingen who was part of the FBI Racial Squad in San Fransisco that put Pratt in prison see http://www.newsreel.us/

    O’Reilly, Kenneth. RACIAL MATTERS. Free Press, 1989.
    Professor O’Reilly looks at a file called Racial Matters that the F.B.I. is keeping on Black America.

    Parenti, Michael. DIRTY TRUTHS. City Lights Books, 1996.
    Dr. Parenti looks at the evidence for F.B.I. involvement in the
    assassination of labor leader Walter Reuther while he was organizing
    protests against the Vietnam War. It includes the essay “Why the Left
    is Afraid to look at the Assassination of JFK” .

    Pepper, William. ORDERS TO KILL. Carroll and Graf, 1995.
    Attorney Pepper represented James Earl Ray in his bid for a new trial
    and won a landmark case in civil court in December 1999 for the Martin
    Luther King Jr. family. The jury in the case concluded hat the F.B.I.
    was involved in the assassination of King. His book details our
    government’s involvement and provides photographic evidence of the
    F.B.I.’s role in this assassination.

    Pepper,William. ACT OF STATE: THE EXECUTION OF MARTIN LUTHER KING Verso Press, 2003
    The evidence from the 1999 Civil Trial in Memphis brought by the King
    family in which the jury concluded FBI agents were principal architects
    in the assassination of Martin Luther King. Written by the trial
    attorney William Pepper.

    Powers, Richard Gid. SECRECY AND POWER. Free Press, 1987.
    A biography of FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover and his quest for power.

    Powers, Tyrone. EYES TO MY SOUL. Majority Press, 1996.
    Professor Powers an afro-american, talks about his 9 years working as
    an F.B.I. agent, and the racism in the FBI . Powers discusses the FBI
    FRUHMENSCHEN program set up in the 1920′s thru 2010 to target black
    politicians in sting operations without cause because the FBI feels
    blacks are incpable of governing. White agents tried to kill him when
    he was writing this book by blowing up his FBI issued car with him in
    it..

    Ranalli, Ralph. DEADLY ALLIANCE. Harper Torch, 2001
    Boston Globe reporter Ralph Rannali exposes FBI collaboration with the
    Boston Mafia from 1930-2009 where they ran a Murder Inc. President Bush
    asserted Executive Privilege in 2002 preventing
    Congress from seeing the Federal Prosecutor’s Investigative files on this case.

    Robbins, Natalie. ALIEN INK. William Morrow, 1992.
    Ms. Robbins acquired the F.B.I. files on the major writers and artists of the 20th century, and examines F.B.I. agents neutralizing them and their freedom of expression.

    Schultz, Bud and Ruth. IT DID HAPPEN HERE. University of California Press, 1989.
    Contains interviews with human rights activists who survived F.B.I. assassination attempts.

    Schultz, Bud and Ruth. THE PRICE OF DISSENT. University of California Press , 2001
    The sequel to IT DID HAPPEN HERE with more interviews with civil rights activists , union organizers and anti-war protestors who survived FBI assassination attempts and with family members of people who were murdered.

    Seymour, Sheri. COMMITTEE OF THE STATES. Self-published, 1989.
    The F.B.I. infiltrated the California Militia 10 years before the Oklahoma City bombing. The book illustrates how easy it was for the F.B.I. to infiltrate the group and get it to make bombs.
    Shows how easy it was for FBI agent provocteur to get Timothy McVeigh to make bomb and drive the truck. The exact same scenario
    occured in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. google floyd
    anticev salem

    Sharkey, Joe. ABOVE SUSPICION. Simon & Schuster, 1993.
    Looks at the F.B.I. coverup involving one of its own agents Mark Putnam, who murdered his informant after he got her pregnant.
    FBI agent Putnam was eventually sentenced to prison for their murder thanks to the dogged work of the Kentucky State Police.
    click link and scroll down to obituary of his wife. http://betrayedbylovemovie.blogspot.com/

    Suarez, Manuel. REQUIEM ON CERRO MARAVILLA. Waterfront Press, 1987.
    Looks at F.B.I. collaboration with local police in the arrest, handcuffing, and death squad execution of two teenagers in Puerto Rico.

    Summers, Anthony. OFFICIAL AND CONFIDENTIAL. G.B. Putnam and Sons, 1993.
    This is the book on which the PBS Frontline documentary on J. Edgar Hoover and his friendship with the Mafia is based. In my eyes, this PBS program was the turning point in the good fortune the FBI has enjoyed for over 80 years.

    Swearingen, Wesley. F.B.I. Secrets: An Agents Expose South End Press 1994
    Swearingen is a retired FBI agent currently living in the San Diego area who was a member
    of the FBI San Fransisco Office racial Squad.
    The FBI has Racial Squads in every major American City. The function of the FBI Racial Squad is to assassinate or neutralize
    black politicians and black activists who do not reflect the philosophy of American Corporations. Vermont filmaker Roz Payne has
    interviewed Swearingen and he is on her recently released 4 DVD about the Black Panthers see http://www.newsreel.us/

  • kevin

    “It is just your solutions and policy that suck.”
    .
    Uh, no. The War on Poverty worked.
    .
    Go look at the census data which shows that poverty rates in the U.S. fell from nearly 18% at the start of the War on Poverty and were down to 12% five years later, when Nixon killed the program. It then moved back up to 14-15% for much of the 1980s and 1990s.
    .
    I know, I know — facts have a liberal bias. Saint Ronny said the War on Poverty failed, so it must have, right?

  • pintortwo

    Facts? The media doesn’t care about facts– yes they love a fight, but love to declare the winner even more (shows how smart they are). And people listen. MSM is a very effective messaging system (you can assume which side they prefer). My opinion, more people will be told that Collins is right –stick the facts where the sun don’t shine.
    .
    I hope you’re right.

  • rustyreturns

    And the wacko jacko left keep on tickin!! Adios, folks!

  • rustyreturns

    Oh and Michael, I’ll send you and Time a bill for running up your comment numbers!!
    .
    Feed on trolls from the left, FEED ON!!!

  • msfreeh

    Theoharis, Athan. THE F.B.I. Garland Publishers, 1994.
    Professor Theoharis has compiled a comprehensive listing of books and articles about the F.B.I. up to 1994.

    Thomas, Kenn. THE OCTOPUS. Feral House, 1996.
    Investigates the F.B.I.’s role in the killing of investigative reporter Danny Casolero while he was investigating the October Surprise.

    Turner, William. THE ASSASSINATION OF ROBERT KENNEDY. Thunder Mouth Press, 1993.
    Written by a former F.B.I. agent, it looks at the F.B.I.’s involvement in the assassination of Robert Kennedy.

    Turner, William. REARVIEW MIRROR foreword by Oliver Stone. Penmarin Books CA 2001.
    More updated information on FBI involvement in President Kennedy, Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King Assassination written by a former FBI agent.

    U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. WHO IS GUARDING THE GUARDIANS? A Report on Police
    Death Squad activities. 1981.

    Wiener, Jon. GIMME SOME TRUTH. University of California Press, 1999.
    Professor Wiener looks at the 14 year battle with the F.B.I. to get them to release their files on John Lennon.How many rock stars
    has the FBI assassinated?

  • freeinpa

    kevin & Mr. Nice Guy

    Unsure of the point you are trying to make, if indeed you have one. You agree with a decision and opinion of a judge appointed by Reagan. So what? Does it mean he is correct because you agree with him?

    Or if there is attacks on Americans in Puerto Rico by say 500 “terrorists” do we send police, FBI Board of Tourism? If China decides to attack if they drop uniforms and say they are terroists do we dial 911?

    Unlike liberals, I do not take decision or thinking by anyone as final because of some apparent ideological link.

    Maybe you can answer why for trial for KSM is being budgeted for $200 million under FEMAs budget? The only reason that comes to mind is it will be a disaster. And it won’t be the last disaster this adminstration will hand the American people.

  • logicalmayhem14

    @freeinpa – “Exploded the deficit- Not nearly to the extent thtat Obama has.”

    Can you please cite some sources and numbers to back this claim? In the year 2000, our total national debt had increased by 23 billion (I prefer to look at it that way instead of deficits/surpluses which can get confused based on the two kinds of debt; the public debt and intragovernmental holdings. In my mind, all that matters is our impact on the total debt … but anyways). In 2008, our national debt had increased by 704 billion. Thats a 3000% increase. Even if you wanted to argue in terms of net differences, not percentages, and you want to cite the 1.3 trillion deficit number being tossed around right now … First off, comparing deficits to the change in national debt is not an apples-to-apples comparison. Second, even still, the best case scenario for you would be a tie, a roughly 600 billion increase for both. Third, you have to admit that the trend was one way when Obama came into office. He cannot be expected to instantly reverse that.

    You can look up the numbers for yourself at (specifically section 7.1):
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/pdf/hist.pdf

    I’ll be waiting for your data to back up that claim.

  • hotbbq

    Now this is a bold faced LIE. Gibbs must think people are stupid and dumb, just like Joe Klein thinks we are.
    .
    The “Undie-bomber” was captured on Christmas day. He was taken into Detroit and 50 minutes into his arraignment he was given his miranda rights. Like hell Janet Napolitano, Hillary Clinton, Bob Meuller, Eric Holder et all were patiently sitting around the “situation room table” in their Christmas attire waiting to be briefed.

    Wow, rusty, this is pretty stupid even for you. Here’s a pro-tip: if you are going to use bold font, make sure you do a cursory fact check first. Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab’s arraignment was on January 8, 2010. Because I’m so helpful, here is a (link from Fox News) that should be ideologically pure enough for you that proves my claim. So Gibbs was in fact telling the truth and Collins and Snowe are left eating a nice big slice of STFU. Now wipe the spittle of your monitor and think of something else to yell at.

  • hotbbq

    I think Republicans are conflating nationalism with patriotism. The former they have in spades, the latter, not so much.

  • mikew67

    LOL, you mean Hitler’s posturing before his band of thugs murdered all opponents. Here is a link and excerpt from Wiki. You really should get educated enough to realize your GOP masters have you duped (hint: cut govt/cut taxes, FAILED. for the slow: f-a-i-l-e-d);

    **Nazism is often considered by scholars to be a form of fascism. While it incorporated elements from both left-wing and right-wing ideology, Nazism is considered to be a form of far right politics.[9] **

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

  • hotbbq

    Let real men decide how this is should be handled.

    Bwa ha hah ha ha. I literally laughed out loud. That’s a gem there, rusty.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    Ah, freeper. That might be why “rule of law” is such a hard concept for you to grasp. Say, aren’t there rocks in the back yard that you can bang together? That might entertain you more than our discussion.

  • mikew67

    Of course you’re leaving. But let’s recap the irrefutable;

    …let’s get ANOTHER big tax cut to the wealthiest as we did in 1981 and 2001.
    I mean, that worked SO well to deliver trickle down prosperity. Almost nobody is unemployed now. And the banks and health insurers, heck – they POLICED THEMSELVES!!! Get government out of the WAY by golly!


    Summary: Failed GOP, duped millions watching Wingnut media and swallowing whole…

  • apr2563

    Rusty: When you aren’t having fits of nervous giggles, you might want to study history. You know they say that prevents us from making the same mistakes.

    Before he went to war, Hitler was busy building an oligarchy to support his dictatorship. He got there buy in by building a military industrial complex, giving tax breaks to big business, going after the intellectuals, demonizing labor unions and instituting bigotry.

  • rustyreturns

    Here you go Hotnut, Adullah was mirandized 10 hours after he was picked up at the airport.
    .

    Captured after a bomb hidden in his underwear ignited but failed to explode, Abdulmutallab spoke freely and provided valuable intelligence, officials said. Federal agents repeatedly interviewed him or heard him speak to others. But when they read him his legal rights nearly 10 hours after the incident, he went silent.”

    .
    Perhaps “arraigned” as I indicated was incorrect, but I am sure he was brought before a “judge” of some sort right after they read him his rights. You know, Obama and the ACLU are so tight!
    .
    Enjoy
    .

    “Even if Abdulmutallab’s statements are ruled out as evidence, they still provided valuable intelligence for U.S. counterterrorism officials to pursue, officials said.
    .
    In the end, though, the “clean team” of interrogators did not prod more revelations from the suspect.
    .
    Having rested and received more extensive medical treatment, Abdulmutallab was told of his right to remain silent and right to have an attorney.
    .
    He remained silent.”

    .
    http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/ap_exclusive_how_us_botched_in.html
    .
    Maybe he wasn’t arraigned. But, the “elite team” did not consult with anyone in Washington. As a matter of fact the so-called “elite team interrorgators” that Obama said he was setting up in place of the CIA has not even been implemented yet. As a matter of fact we are right now probably without any interrogators who are trained in terrorism to interrogate suspects when they do fly into the US the next time. Why you ask? Because Obama has not done his job. Because the rest of this Administration is too inept to do anything. Period.
    .
    Collins is right in every respect and is right to call into question this Administration and they judgments in this case.
    .
    Just like choosing Jeremiah Wright as his pastor, Obama yet again proves how stupid he really is, and does not have a clue.
    .
    No Judgement, No integrity, No clue period.

  • hotbbq

    Where shall I begin?

    Perhaps “arraigned” as I indicated was incorrect, but I am sure he was brought before a “judge” of some sort right after they read him his rights.

    If you had any clue what you were talking about you would understand that being arraigned is exactly what you are implying. Read more (here). Since we know that didn’t happen until January 8th, you are again, misinformed. He was not brought before a “judge” after they Mirandized him.

    But, the “elite team” did not consult with anyone in Washington.

    You’re right! From the article you linked to:

    “There was no effort to call in the elite federal High-Value Interrogation Group, a special unit of terror specialists that the Obama administration said early last year it would create to deal with terror suspects captured abroad.

    Aw shucks, foiled again. Alas, had the unit been operational the suspect was unfortunately not captured abroad, but here in the good old US of A. The special unit would not have jurisdiction.

    So in summary, all of the officers of the government acted according to the laws of this great nation and received enough information to determine that the threat was contained. I must admit, you tried awfully hard to put your case together. Let’s hope the Justice Department has better luck trying Mr. Abdulmutallab in a civilian court! Is there anything else I may enlighten you with today?

  • anon76

    This one’s for Rusty, and anyone else to whom there is no ‘real’-er man than a cowboy:

  • kevin

    “Maybe you can answer why for trial for KSM is being budgeted for $200 million under FEMAs budget?”
    .
    Maybe you can provide a link for what sounds like utter bullsh–?

  • spob

    Well, gee everyone, Obama himself, when asked during the campaign whether terrorists should be Mirandized, said:
    .
    “Now — do these folks deserve Miranda rights? Do they deserve to be treated like a shoplifter — down the block? Of course not.”
    .
    MS, why isn’t that tidbit in the reporting?

  • sambam23

    Kudos to hotbbq and others who valiantly attempt to correct the garbage that rusty spews.

    Anyone who follows this blog should know that rusty doesn’t let ignorance get in the way of expressing his opinions, and he’s not going to let facts or reasoning pollute his mind (such as it is).

    My advice – save your breath and ignore rusty (like the rest of us do).

  • sambam23

    Just as they conflate loud argument for logic and jingoism for bravery. So what else is new?

  • michaelfury

    “There’s no other way to explain the irresponsible, indeed dangerous, decision on Abdulmutallab’s interrogation. There’s no other way to explain the inconceivable treatment of him as if he were a common criminal.”

    Really, Senator?

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/12/28/let-the-right-one-in/

  • http://blog.reidreport.com/2010/02/the-newest-right-wing-attack-dog-susan-collins/ The newest right wing attack dog … Susan Collins? : The Reid Report

    [...] Robert Gibbs got in on the action, too. Share this [...]

  • jodytheblue

    Holder wrote to Mitch McConell in a letter that “the FBI told its partners in the intelligence community on Christmas Day that Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab would be charged criminally.” This is not true. 3 Intelligence heads told Susan Collins at the Senate Judiciary hearing that they were not consulted over the matter.

    http://obamareport.blogspot.com/2010/02/eric-holder-dangerous-prevaricator.html

    Why isn’t Swampland and the Mainstream media reporting this?

  • 3xfire3

    Can’t do anything that might make Obama or Holder look bad. That’s an unwritten law by the MSM and of course all the left wingers posting on this site.
    Truth and reason are foreign to them.

    They prefer name calling and demonizing anyone who is not a liberal. They are a joke.

  • diecash1

    Yet more bloviation and BS from you. Have you nothing of substance to contribute? Can you do no better than your same tired commentary? Have you not noticed that your posts are woefully devoid of truth, reason and fact? The joke is on you………

  • Paul-no not that one

    So after all this discussion and misdirection it comes out that Collins is factually wrong.

    Yep, quite the “policy clash”.

  • rustyreturns

    So true jody, so true. Michael Scherer and the rest of the lame stream media here in the swamp are so far up the liberals’ butts they can’t breath right let alone report on the truth.
    .
    If you really want to know the truth go to Fox News.
    .
    The people know whose side TIME is on, and it isn’t for truth and justice. Nor is it for freedom and liberty. It’s nothing more than a rag mag has been from the past hiring derelects for writers like Klein, Tumulty and Scherer.

  • boxerchick

    Hey, Rust, that “naive ideology” of mine is called the United States Constitution. Read it – it’s great!

  • dedevu

    Sometimes we are too high minded. Sometimes it is clear as.this rather interesting article points out, that there is an underlying and apparent failing that is almost to be expected with the likes of Susan Collins.

  • apr2563

    Sam, here is my pledge. No more responses to the truely factually challenged, obnoxious rusty.

  • allthingsinaname

    The mentally exhausted and morally bankrupt left are back to pathetic name calling. Yes the “brain dead” public has just realized they were duped by a lying President and that the policies he and the Dumo Congress are crap and they are revolting.

    Keep the name calling because nobody cares!
    freeinpa
    February 3, 2010
    at 3:37 pm

    .
    .
    Say what? You choose, no refuse, to make sense.

  • hotbbq

    He won’t reply because his intent isn’t to understand this issue at hand. He simply wishes to stroke his lunatic fringe bonafides. There is no helping this kind of person. They are simply too far down the rabbit hole to bring back.

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    Hey Kev, after 3 yrs. of a democrat controlled house and senate, perhaps you could give us an update on these here poverty stats. 3 yrs. ago I moved into a brand new house (which I qualified to buy, and built with my own 2 hands) and was sittin’ high on the hog. Now I’m wondering how I’m gonna make my next mortgage payment. There’s nothing on the horizon workwise that gives me any hope. Not complaining, mind you, many of my friends have already been forclosed on, and you can multiply that story by millions all across this country. How are the poverty stricken doing? Have you experienced that euphoric feeling that comes from being “pulled from the brink”? Could you tell me how I might achieve that? Just yer average dumbass conservative here, so again, could you give me a hand with the latest “poverty stats”?

  • diecash1

    Your current circumstances are difficult and unfortunate but can you really lay the economic troubles of yourself (and others) at the feet of the Democratically controlled Congress? Do you really think things were just fine BEFORE 2006? Do you not believe that the roots of our current crisis stem from the policies of the Republican controlled Congress and the policies of W? They started TWO wars, unfunded (naturally), passed TWO tax cuts exclusively for the wealthiest Americans, passed a gigantic EXPANSION of government with the Medicare Drug Act (unfunded) and deregulated or refused to regulate industry, especially the financial industry. Do you think that none of this mattered economically because you were doing fine three years ago? Again, sorry to hear about your troubles but your blame is seriously misguided.

  • http://nationalsecuritylawbrief.com/2010/02/04/wh-press-secretary-responds-to-sen-collins/ WH Press Secretary Responds to Sen. Collins – National Security Law Brief

    [...] Obama administration’s actions in the wake of this event, though now subject to a heated partisan exchange, demonstrate that Collins’s claim regarding intelligence consultation is untrue.  White [...]

  • http://currentpoliticaltrends.com/index.php/u-s-military/terror-policy-clash-susan-collins-vs-robert-gibbs-4529/ Terror-Policy Clash: Susan Collins vs. Robert Gibbs | Current Political Trends

    [...] Read more on Time Magazine [...]

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