Justice Samuel Alito, The Presidential Fact Checker

UPDATED BELOW: With a White House fact check of the apparent Alito fact check.

Late last night, I wrote about Justice Alito’s apparent fact check of President Obama’s speech. During Obama’s description of the Supreme Court’s Citizen’s United decision, Alito shook his and appeared to mouth the words “not true.” This morning, it appears that Alito may have had a point. Via Ben Smith, I find this explanation from Linda Greenhouse, the New York Times, veteran court watcher.

Indeed, Mr. Obama’s description of the holding of the case was imprecise. He said the court had “reversed a century of law.” The law that Congress enacted in the populist days of the early 20th century prohibited direct corporate contributions to political campaigns. That law was not at issue in the Citizens United case, and is still on the books. Rather, the court struck down a more complicated statute that barred corporations and unions from spending money directly from their treasuries — as opposed to their political action committees — on television advertising to urge a vote for or against a federal candidate in the period immediately before the election. It is true, though, that the majority wrote so broadly about corporate free speech rights as to call into question other limitations as well — although not necessarily the existing ban on direct contributions.

Politifact also takes issue with Obama’s “100 years” comment, by way of a similar comment that was made by Democratic Sen. Chuck Schumer of New York:

We asked Schumer’s staff about the 100-year-old comment, and they pointed us toward a 1907 law called the Tillman Act. They cited the dissenting opinion issued this week, written by Justice John Paul Stevens, that said, “The majority’s approach to corporate electioneering marks a dramatic break from our past. Congress has placed special limitations on campaign spending by corporations ever since the passage of the Tillman Act in 1907.”

But as we dug deeper into the history of the Tillman Act, the picture got murky because of the difference between independent expenditures and direct contributions.

An independent expenditure means money that corporations go out and spend on their own to portray a particular candidate as unfit for office, or on an issue. A direct contribution means a donation to a candidate’s campaign, for the campaign to spend any way it likes. Corporations may not make direct contributions to federal campaigns from their own treasury; they have to create a separate political action committee, or PAC, for that. The recent ruling did nothing to change that ban.

The Tillman Act said corporations could not “make a money contribution in connection with any election to any political office.” Now, does this mean that independent expenditures are outlawed, or just direct contributions? We looked at several court opinions and legal articles, and everything we looked at suggested that back then, people weren’t thinking of campaign contributions in those terms. And in 1947, Congress came back and passed another law, the Taft-Hartley Labor Act, banning corporations and unions from making independent expenditures.

In fact, much of modern campaign finance laws dates to the post-Watergate period in the 1970s, when Congress passed the Federal Election Campaign Act and a series of amendments. That’s when modern reporting requirements for campaigns were put into place, and the Federal Election Commission was established. A history on the Web site of the Federal Election Commission notes that before this the laws were largely ignored, “because none provided an institutional framework to administer their provisions effectively.”

So what about Schumer’s comments that the Supreme Court “decided to overrule the 100-year-old ban on corporate expenditures.” This glosses over a lot of detail. Yes, it was more than 100 years ago that the first law limiting corporate spending was passed. But we don’t see evidence that the Tillman Act even envisioned a distinction between direct contributions and independent expenditures. And the ban on direct contributions still stands.

In the grand scheme of things, this is all a rather small, technical point, but for a former constitutional law professor like Obama, one would have thought that it was much less small or technical than for the rest of us.

UPDATE: The White House sends around a fact check of its own, defending Obama’s 100 year claim:

CLAIM:  That the President was “imprecise” when he said the decision “reversed a century of law.”
REALITY:  In 1907, when Congress passed the Tillman Act, it was considered perfectly constitutional to treat corporations differently than people in the context of political activity. This decision changes that century-old legal principle.  As Justice Stevens wrote in dissent, “Congress has placed special limitations on campaign spending by corporations ever since the passage of the Tillman Act in 1907 . . . The Court today rejects a century of history when it treats the distinction between corporate and individual campaign spending as an invidious novelty born of Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce.”

Related Topics: samuel alito, state of the union, Uncategorized
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  • nflfoghorn

    I think Scalido [sic] was more ticked that The Untouchables just got touched. Who dares question what they decide? The prez, more to the point, was saying that the court majority took two fish and five loaves and fed Haiti.

  • freeinpa

    Was he showing the same indignation that Obama shows when his “brilliance” is questioned. Alito will stand by what he decided, Obama will look for someone else to blame.

  • nflfoghorn

    Every public servant must stand up to criticism, freep. The SC can be independent but they shouldn’t be insulated when it decides something most people don’t like. Weren’t you afraid of “judicial activism” when liberal (i.e., the ones you don’t like) justices are in control? This is one major reason why I think cameras should be in their courtroom–what do they have to hide, aside from Thomas picking his nose and Scalia being a borderline racist?

  • kevin

    Alito is a petty, petty man.
    .
    By his own admission, he crosses to the other side of the street whenever he nears the Senate Office Building because he’s still mad that some Democrats dared to vote against his nomination.
    .
    And when Obama was president-elect, he went to visit the Supreme Court. Everyone but Alito, who left the office right before Obama arrived.
    .
    Is it any wonder this childish man felt the need to talk back to the president?

  • stuartzechman

    Michael Scherer:
    .
    I think Alito is an unsound jurist (so far), but of course he has a point.
    .
    The Citizens United decision has nothing to do with the Tillman Act, nothing whatsoever. Yes, the dissent mentions it, but that’s about all.
    .
    But why do you need some kind of elaborate process or “fact-checking” to know this?
    .
    Why don’t you just read the decision ( link to PDF WARNING PDF of Citizens United v FEC decision )?
    .
    If you don’t want to start at the top, just type “Tillman” into the little search bar in Adobe Acrobat Reader, and you’ll be taken to the dissent in seconds. Search again for “Tillman”, and you’ll see that the majority didn’t touch (overrule, set new case law precedent with respect to, etc.) that law.
    .
    The dissent gets a little rhetorical, just like the majority gets a little rhetorical, that’s all.
    .
    But, again, why don’t you just read the decision using the handy-dandy “find” feature of Acrobat, Michael Scherer?

  • nflfoghorn

    He’s untouchable, I tells ya.

  • deconstructiva

    …no he’s not. SCOTUS members can be impeached and removed, though right now that ain’t gonna happen.

  • lorrandaring

    Michael,

    I read this blog but today is the first time have bothered to comment.

    I am a Barrister (UK system) and I think the argument of your article misses the point. When Obama (or any informed commentator really) talks about “overturning 100 years of Jurisprudence” that clearly means overturning a basic tenet of law, as in the “formerly” unfettered right of congress to limit the activities of corporations in respect to the electoral process.

    The law is like an ancient city where the surviving inhabitants add to structures and build on old foundations. For example, in the UK the first “formulation” of negligence as a principle of law can be found in Donahue vs Stevenson (the snail in the bottle). However, decades of argument and Jurisprudence has expanded the “duty of care” into many different areas and with many different measures of “the standard” of liability or the assessment of damages. So using the case of Donahue vs Stevenson as an example; suppose the House of Lords were to rule (in a specific case about medical malpractice) that Doctors could not be held negligent even for careless mistakes because “the legal principle of duty of care infringes their individual rights”? That ruling would destroy the whole foundation of the tort of negligence.

    I personally think the Supreme Court followed ideology and “pure logic” down the rabbit hole. To use another analogy; the average hunter can shoot his rifle in the woods (no problem) but is it okay to shoot a howitzer? Why not? There is a natural balance between personal rights and the public interest! When we consider the foreign element of corporate spending we can extend our example even more. Its like the hunter using a cruise missile in the woods.
    Think of it like this, Chavez could potentially control a US corporation himself (or by proxy) and spend hundreds of millions to influence US elections.

  • nflfoghorn

    Decon, I agree and hope you saw the sarcasm :)

  • nflfoghorn

    Welcome, and BTW Chavez’s country owns Citgo.

  • deconstructiva

    Think of it like this, Chavez could potentially control a US corporation himself (or by proxy) and spend hundreds of millions to influence US elections.

    Chavez already does (through PDV): CITGO.

  • deconstructiva

    …great minds….

  • spob

    This isn’t the first time that the Con Law prof (er lecturer) has botched Con Law when talking about it. Remember the Burris appointment? He said that the Senate could refuse to seat him due to his lack of qualifications. And that conflicted directly with Powell v. McCormack. And now this.
    .
    Oh well, he’s got a ways to go before he equals Sotomayor in sheer ignorance about a Supreme Court case. When Sotomayor stated in her Senate Judiciary Committee testimony that Ginsburg’s dissent in Ricci would have affirmed the Second Circuit, she got that spectacularly wrong. Obama’s errors aren’t that bad.

  • spob

    And let;s not forget, although the MSM has, that Barack Obama wasn’t exactly vigilant about keeping foreign contributions out of his campaign. but of course, scherer wont mention that.

  • nflfoghorn

    ditto :)

  • deconstructiva

    …actually it’s still morning for me and I missed it, ha! But you’re right. Now if we wanted to annoy some right-leaning commenters we could say “Sotomayor is untouchable” and watch the fireworks….

  • newfreedomblog

    Did Barack Obama actually graduate from Harvard Law? This should be the real question today.

  • nflfoghorn

    That frat house mentality of his is something, ain’t it? Next thing he’ll be “watering in the garden” like William F. Buckley and his guys used to do.

  • textee

    Time magazine: “…, but for a former constitutional law professor like Obama, one would have thought that it was much less small or technical than for the rest of us.”

    Good grief. Obama doesn’t know a damn thing about history or the United States Constitution. He doesn’t know what happened yesterday.

  • spob

    It’s not a major error, but an interesting one nonetheless. I would expect that an HLS grad wouldn’t make a legal mistake in a major speech. His botching of the question of whether the Senate was within its rights to refuse to seat Burris was worse. Neither were as bad as Sotomayor’s butchery of the Ricci dissent.

  • nflfoghorn

    That frat house mentality of his is something, ain’t it? Next thing he’ll be “watering in the garden” like William F. Buckley and his guys used to do.
    .
    Just skip #8 – I posted in the wrong spot. :O

  • nflfoghorn

    Woops – wrong post. Intended to respond to 2.5 :)

  • nflfoghorn

    Wow, I didn’t know that. And Dubya is a Rhodes Scholar too.

  • spob

    nfl–on the trail, Obama touted his experience as a Con Law prof, and now he flubs two SCOTUS decisions. Interesting.

  • freeinpa

    Do you think Alito will start a website to report folks who say bad things about the SC?

    ==

    I do love how liberals have twisted the definition of “judicial activism” to mean overturning laws that are unconstitutional by adhering to a strict interpretation of the Constitution. This as opposed to the Warren Court of findng hidden rights within penumbras of the laws

    When you limit yourself to interpreting the constitution you have a more consistent and fairer judicial system instead of lotto system whereby justices take in factors they deem to be more important or significant (at least by them).

  • freeinpa

    And Joe Kennedy. So does his association with Chavez make him a subversive?

  • allthingsinaname

    Really Now! Does it matter how, or where ,or through which channels the money comes through?
    .
    You can talk all about the Political facts you want, but does it make any difference to me? Am I a lawyer, or a scholar of some sort, or am I an average person out there who is concerned about how little effect my $25 has on the political process, compared to the hundreds of millions being spent by the Corporations.
    .
    It makes not difference to me if it is direct money or money from their political action committees.
    .
    He was not writing law, but making a political speech; he made his point.

  • kevin

    Judicial activism is in the eye of the beholder.
    .
    Do you think the founders intended corporations to be counted as “people” with all rights accorded to them? Or believed in anything like “freedom of contract” as the Lochner era court said?
    .
    “Strict constructionism” is nothing but conservatives interpreting what they want in the constitution. They’re more activist than liberals. It’s the Rehnquist Court that set the record for most acts of Congress overturned, after all, not the Warren Court.

  • nflfoghorn

    “…When you limit yourself to interpreting the constitution…”
    .
    You actually think that’s what the majority did? Seriously??

  • barkadoodle

    The Tillman Act said corporations could not “make a money contribution in connection with any election to any political office.”
    ———————————————————
    If the Tillman Act makes no distinction, then why is the court inventing these distinctions? Whether the contributions are direct or indirect, they are still connected to a political office, and it seems that the Tillman Act covers this. So I think Obama is right.

    In any case, it is a complete joke to hear justice Roberts and Alito explain that they make all their decisions within the context of the framers of the constitution. I can just imagine how the framers would react to the notion of the East India Tea Company funding advertisements to a politician in 1789. I don’t believe for a second any of them would have approved.

  • stuartzechman

    1) Yes, that’s what the Tillman act did ( link to wikipedia entry )

    The Tillman Act of 1907 (34 Stat. 864) was the first legislation in the United States prohibiting monetary contribution to national political campaigns by corporations.

    But Citizens United vs FEC wasn’t about campaign contributions, not in the slightest.
    .
    Corporate campaign contributions are different than buying ad time, producing movies, printing literature or producing infomercials, which are all considered forms of speech. The Tillman act did not speak to speech, only direct money-giving.

    If the Tillman Act makes no distinction, then why is the court inventing these distinctions?

    When the dissent mentions Tillman, they are making the point that the Tillman act makes such distinctions

    Congress has placed special limitations on campaign spending by corporations ever since the passage of the Tillman Act in 1907

    , so you’ve got that part mixed up. The point of the dissent is that Congress can single out corporations from individuals and other entities for restrictions on political activities (including speech, according to the dissent, which Tillman avoids).

    Whether the contributions are direct or indirect, they are still connected to a political office, and it seems that the Tillman Act covers this.

    The film in question, “Hillary”, wasn’t a contribution. Commercials on television aren’t contributions. Direct mail pieces aren’t contributions. Emails aren’t contributions. Robo-calls aren’t contributions. These are all forms of speech, therefore the Tillman act does not “cover this.” The dissent in this case doesn’t say that speech is a form of campaign contribution, and no Court ever has.

    So I think Obama is right.

    He’s not, he’s essentially quoting the dissent in a misleading way to make a rhetorical point.
    .
    2)

    In any case, it is a complete joke to hear justice Roberts and Alito explain that they make all their decisions within the context of the framers of the constitution.

    Yes, it is funny, sometimes.

    I can just imagine how the framers would react to the notion of the East India Tea Company funding advertisements to a politician in 1789.

    I think they probably would have passed a sedition act banning such activities upon penalty of death by hanging, and the Court at that time probably would have upheld that law.

  • grape_crush

    Quote from the speech:

    “With all due deference to separation of powers, last week, the Supreme Court reversed a century of law that I believe will open the floodgates for special interests, including foreign corporations, to spend without limit in our elections.”

    Quote from Linda Greenhouse:

    ..court struck down a more complicated statute that barred corporations and unions from spending money directly from their treasuries — as opposed to their political action committees — on television advertising to urge a vote for or against a federal candidate in the period immediately before the election.

    Now, I can do some Googling and find out that PACs are limited in the amount that can be directly contirbuted to candidates, have reporting requirements, corporations cannot contribution, etc…also that with the Supreme Court’s ruling, corporations and unions can advocate (as long as they’re not coordinating with a campaign – wink, wink) for a particular candidate without restriction, as far as I can tell.

    The cap has been lifted from independent expenditures.

    Further, the dissenting view:

    “The majority’s approach to corporate electioneering marks a dramatic break from our past. Congress has placed special limitations on campaign spending by corporations ever since the passage of the Tillman Act in 1907.”

    is not incorrect. Corporate spending in elections – in general, whether direct or indirect – has been limited by laws dating back a century and less. The Citizens United decision negates a position (that the artificial construct of a corporation has the same free speech rights as a person) that’s a century old.

    …this is all a rather small, technical point…

    Which apparently is being greatly overblown, given the attention that’s being paid to it.

    ..but for a former constitutional law professor like Obama, one would have thought that it was much less small or technical than for the rest of us.

    Given that this was The State of the Union address and not a Con Law class, a detailed exploration of a century’s worth of case law wasn’t going to happen. Further, you haven’t come close to proving that Obama, Schumer, and Justice John Paul Stevens are incorrect in their assessment. All you’ve done in this post is take a point that you have described as ‘small, technical’ and used it to distract from the larger issue. You’re engaging in a (or indulging someone else’s) strawman argument, Michael.

  • lorrandaring

    Actually,

    you can frame the debate by asking; “why do politicians raise and spend money”? They use money primarily to influence public opinion. If corporations are out there spending money directly to influence public opinion that is in effect a contribution to their favored (or the favored) politician.

    But beyond the narrow legal argument, the discussion should be about whether or not Corporations should be able to spend willy nilly to reward and punish law makers who do not vote with their special interest.A fortiori, when such special interest might be expressly against the best interest of the USA as a whole and/or the majority of its citizens.

    To be frank, any SENSIBLE American should be concerned about the integrity of the electoral process. There is no way that anyone can intelligently argue in good faith that allowing corporations (and foreign interests [directly or indirectly]) to wield increased power over the American electoral process is a good thing.

    In fact, if the press wasn’t mired in mediocrity they would be on the airwaves making this very point.

  • stuartzechman

    grape_crush:

    The Citizens United decision negates a position (that the artificial construct of a corporation has the same free speech rights as a person) that’s a century old.

    How do you know this?
    .
    Are you sure you don’t want to rephrase that?

  • stuartzechman

    If corporations are out there spending money directly to influence public opinion that is in effect a contribution to their favored (or the favored) politician.

    So…there’s no difference between me donating money directly to a candidate, so that they can hire political consultants to write their speeches, or fly themselves around the country in private jets, or obtain the services of wardrobe-stylists or photographers, or contract the services of organizers that put signature-collecting workers out on the street to meet ballot requirements, and me using my own money to put up a website called “ElectMyFavoriteCandidate.com”, in which I advocate the election of said candidate?
    .
    (If you want to distinguish between my free speech rights and and a corporation’s, that’s another argument.)
    .
    If spend a few bucks on gas to drive to a bar in which I have a conversation with my friend, and try to persuade him that Barack Obama is the candidate for President, does that gas money count toward my maximum individual contribution limit, since, according to you, it’s “in effect a contribution” to my favored politician?

  • grape_crush

    These are all forms of speech, therefore the Tillman act does not “cover this.”
    .
    Tillman was not specific about identifying direct or indirect expenditures. By restricting corporations’ ability to “make a money contribution in connection with any election to any political office”, it’s a de facto restriction of free speech, at least as defined by the conservative majority of the current Supreme Court.

  • lorrandaring

    @ Stuartzechman.

    I don’t know if you are slow or just pretending to be so. But i’ll try again.

    Democracies are based on majority rule. All citizens are equal under the law and all should basically have equal representation. AKA, One person one vote. In other words the opposite of an aristocratic system.

    Any american has a right to voice an opinion and seek to influence one another in respect to the electoral process. However, companies cannot and should not vote. The USA is not a union of companies but a union of individuals.

    Likewise, a powerful man (or woman) should not have (in a well functioning democracy) a much greater influence over lawmakers in congress than the ordinary citizen. When this happens, the few on the top suck like vampires off the toils of the many.

    you can convince your friends as much as you want and even donate (according to legal limits) to your favored candidates and party but you should not be able to use your money to subvert the interests of the majority for your personal benefit.

  • stuartzechman

    grape_crush:
    .
    Here is the text of the Tillman Act:

    “…it shall be unlawful for any national bank, or any corporation organized by authority of any laws of Congress, to make money contribution in connection with any election to any political office…” (Tillman 864)

    The definition of “money contribution” is a direct campaign contribution to any election campaign for any political office.
    .
    If you disagree, we’ll have to find a consensus definition of the term, otherwise we’ll just go around and around on that.
    .
    Can you point to a passage of Citizens in which the Court ruled that campaign contributions (not expenditures on tv commercial time) are de facto speech, though?
    .
    I haven’t found such language.

  • grape_crush

    How do you know this?…Are you sure you don’t want to rephrase that?

    Kennedy wrote in the majority opinion that there was “no basis for the proposition that, in the context of political speech, the Government may impose restrictions on certain disfavored speakers” and specified that the First Amendment treats corporations and unions as having the same rights as individuals when it comes to spending money to influence elections.
    .
    That reverses the position established by Tillman.
    .
    Now, if you want to be nitpicky (and I know you do) the decision does not negate government restriction of corporate speech as its related to consumer protections, yet.

  • freeinpa

    kevin:

    “Strict constructionism” is nothing but conservatives interpreting what they want in the constitution. They’re more activist than liberals.”
    ==
    Speaking of the eye of the beholder. Strict constructionist is interpreting what is in the constitution. Judicial activism is what liberals want the constitution to say. How else do you explain abortion or affirmative action? Finding rights in the penumbras of the Amendments to justify a social outcome is the province of liberals.
    ==
    The Renquist Court took on an Imperial Congress that believed it could take away rights granted to individuals by passing nonsense legislation.

    ==
    ” All rights not granted by the constitution shall remain with the people — not the government.

  • allthingsinaname

    Oh the pox on you all. Let’s have a feudal system.

  • stuartzechman

    lorrandaring:

    I don’t know if you are slow or just pretending to be so. But i’ll try again.

    Why don’t you just assume that I’m a semi-moron, and spell it out for me, so that we’re really clear about what your arguments are?
    .
    Folks around here have probably come to their own judgments about my intelligence (or lack thereof), so casting hominem stones like “if you are slow” probably might not be the most persuasive of rhetorical paths in this case, but carry on. Preface your remarks by pointing to your own IQ score next time, maybe that will do the trick.

    Democracies are based on majority rule.

    Well, I can’t tell you how glad I am that you’re around to provide this sort of information, it’s invaluable, truly. You have my most profound gratitude.

    All citizens are equal under the law and all should basically have equal representation. AKA, One person one vote. In other words the opposite of an aristocratic system.

    Up until this moment, I had no idea how that sort of system really worked, nor any of its historical context. Fantastic job of explaining that, really. Do go on…

    Any american has a right to voice an opinion and seek to influence one another in respect to the electoral process.

    Yes!
    .
    I’ve heard of that somewhere before…it’s in the Bill of….the Bill of…well, somewhere, anyway.

    However, companies cannot and should not vote. The USA is not a union of companies but a union of individuals.

    You know, it’s just magnificent how your opinions on this subject line right up with the text of the Constitution and centuries of case law.
    .
    Again, there aren’t enough superlatives in the English language for this kind of teaching, there truly aren’t. I feel like the Israelites must have felt receiving the tablets from Moses.

    Likewise, a powerful man (or woman) should not have (in a well functioning democracy) a much greater influence over lawmakers in congress than the ordinary citizen.

    Is that true?
    .
    I don’t mean whether or not I agree with your opinion (“should not have”), I mean is it an accurate representation of how the Supreme Court has interpreted the Constitution?
    .
    What does the Court say about Buckley v Valeo in the Citizens decision, again?

    First Amendment protections do not depend on the speaker’s “financial ability to engage in public discussion.” Buckley, supra, at 49.

    That seems to contradict your assertion, doesn’t it?
    .
    Or are you arguing that Buckley doesn’t actually say what the majority says that it said?
    .
    …And what does “powerful” mean, anyway?
    .
    Do you mean “financially powerful”?
    .
    If so, does that mean that the government might have a compelling interest in restricting my political speech because I make a little bit more per year than my downstairs neighbor? I have a little more disposable income to spend on my website “ElectMyFavoriteCandidate.com,” whilst he does not. Does that situation require equalizing through state intervention? Is that how it works in a democracy?
    .
    What would we have to do in order to ensure that no individual had “much greater influence over lawmakers in Congress” (I’m assuming you mean in electing candidates to that body, since that’s the issue in question) than any other?
    .
    Does that involve the state placing restrictions on the use of incredible oratory gifts such as Barack Obama possesses? After all, a speech by Barack Obama can have an enormous persuasive impact far above the advocacy of the rest of us non-gifted folks –the recent Massachusetts special election not withstanding, of course.
    .
    Again, how is the state enforcing its interest equalization of the relative capabilities with respect to speech compatible with democracy as we know it, presuming for the sake of argument that the Court would ever recognize the constitutionality of such laws?

    When this happens, the few on the top suck like vampires off the toils of the many.

    Nice rhetorical flourish there, I just shivered at the thought of Count Burns-ula ( link to wikipedia entry for Charles Montgomery “Monty” Burns ).

    you can convince your friends as much as you want

    Oh super!
    .
    Can I? Can I, really…?

    and even donate (according to legal limits) to your favored candidates and party

    Well, I personally can, but not through my corporation, since that’s what the Tillman Act prohibits, but I’m sure you meant to say that.

    but you should not be able to use your money to subvert the interests of the majority for your personal benefit.

    Actually, that’s not true. If I can somehow convince the majority to vote against their interests for my personal benefit, then that’s just the way it goes in a democracy. It’s not up to the state to define what the “interests of the majority” are, am I correct, nor what speech “subverts” said interests?
    .
    In the case that was just overruled by the majority in Citizens, the Court found that a previous case “Austin v Michigan Chamber of Commerce” was wrong for asserting a compelling state interest in restricting speech expenditure for corporations, because the laws that create corporations as entities do so explicitly for the purpose of accumulating vast quantities of capital, which gives these entities extraordinary, state-given (as opposed to organically arising, like Barack Obama’s gifts) powers of persuasion, which necessarily distort the market of ideas.
    .
    I’m still not sure if the Austin Court was correct, or whether the current Court is correct, myself, but I do know that this little explanation of yours hasn’t been as helpful in making that decision as I’m sure you intended for it to be.
    .
    That said, I sure do appreciate the chance to really explore many of the implications of each ruling with you in this fun-filled, insult-free conversation, lorrandaring!
    .
    Thanks for trying so hard to help me get it straight in my brain!

  • spob

    “In 1907, when Congress passed the Tillman Act, it was considered perfectly constitutional to treat corporations differently than people in the context of political activity. This decision changes that century-old legal principle. As Justice Stevens wrote in dissent, “Congress has placed special limitations on campaign spending by corporations ever since the passage of the Tillman Act in 1907 . . . The Court today rejects a century of history when it treats the distinction between corporate and individual campaign spending as an invidious novelty born of Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce.”
    .
    But it still is perfectly constitutional to treat corps and people differently when it comes to political activity. Just not speech.

  • stuartzechman

    oops! …Because I’m so slow (or because this preview pane function doesn’t like wikipedia links), I didn’t get to put that link to Count Burns-ula up: ( link to wikipedia entry for Charles Montgomery “Monty” Burns ).

  • stuartzechman

    Corrections, since I spent all of two seconds proofing that last post before hitting submit:
    .
    “Again, how is the state enforcing its interest in the equalization of relative capabilities with respect to speech compatible with democracy as we know it, presuming for the sake of argument that the Court would ever recognize the constitutionality of such laws?”
    .
    “In the case that was just overruled by the majority in Citizens, the Court found that this previous case, “Austin v Michigan Chamber of Commerce”, was wrong…”
    .
    “…wrong for asserting a compelling state interest in restricting speech expenditure for corporations, when the Austin Court found that the laws that create corporations as entities do so explicitly for the purpose of accumulating vast quantities of capital, giving these entities extraordinary, state-endowed (as opposed to organically arising, like Barack Obama’s gifts) potential for powers of persuasion, which the Austin Court further asserted necessarily distort the market of ideas.”

  • kbanginmotown

    stuart: Michael couldn’t be bothered with reading the PDF, but he cut-n-pasted the WH response…

  • grape_crush

    If you disagree
    .
    I do, particularly if you leave out the ‘in connection’ part.
    .
    Can you point to a passage of Citizens in which the Court ruled that campaign contributions (not expenditures on tv commercial time) are de facto speech, though?
    .
    Here’s the decision (2.5MB .pdf). Try pages 27-48, which contain various references to corporate contributions to PACs as speech and indirect contirbutions as speech.

  • stuartzechman

    I don’t want to be nit-picky, but the position established by Tillman is that campaign donations –gifts– are restricted, not expenditures related to (necessarily giving rise to, like spending on the paper and glue it takes to put up fliers) speech.
    .
    Until we can explicitly agree or disagree that “spending” in the form of a gift is indistinguishable from “spending” in the form of buying airtime for an ad praising a candidate, we’re stuck arguing past each other.

  • lorrandaring

    Its easy to cut and paste!

    Whats the golden thread? Why do you believe that corporations should be able to use their wealth to influence the american political process?

    Laws which aim to prohibit the direct influence of corporations in elections do not limit heir human shareholders and managers to the same extent. Therefore, the interests of the corporation through its owners/managers still has some proportional impact on the legal system (aside from direct legal/contractual rights).

    Individual’s interact with societies in different ways. Some have “special” abilities and some have opinions which carry greater weight with their peers. This is a natural and normal part of life and the development of humanity. Political pundits and showmen like Rush Limbaugh get on the airwaves and influence millions of people. That is fair and normal american society and in developed parts of the world.
    Whether their aims and objectives are “pure” and for the betterment of the majority of their fellow citizens is more or less beside the point. Individuals have always been able to state their case to all who are willing to listen in the court of public opinion in america.

    Corporations on the other hand are different. As legal entities they have no fundamental, “human rights” and truly they are purpose built, financial and legal innovations designed and empowered to assist and aid human development. In my view they have no legitimate business in the electoral process.

    But hey if you think they do, good for you. I’m still curious as to why on a fundamental level that you believe this?

  • 53_3

    When is money speech? Never heard of such a thing. Anyway, damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead!
    .
    Oh, well. The past side of this watershed was our existence as a representative democracy. The future side of this watershed is our existence as a democratic oligarchy. Not “the land of the free and home of the brave”, by any means.
    .
    Hells bells, lets just give Rush the keys to the country. Let them “take America back”!
    .
    They may get just exactly what they wished for, to their intense chagrin…

  • deconstructiva

    Why do you believe that corporations should be able to use their wealth to influence the american political process?

    …loran, I really, really don’t think stuart believes that (really), but I digress.
    .
    Long version: check out the term “centrist” (politicians, both D and R) used often around here. I prefer the term “corporate” politicians since they represent corp. interests ahead of constituents (think Sen. “Mutual of Omaha” Nelson).
    .
    Anyhow, I’m done. Carry on.

  • kevin

    “Strict constructionist is interpreting what is in the constitution.”
    .
    Yes, interpreting it according to their own politics and their own biases.
    .
    Thanks for agreeing with me.

  • kevin

    “The Renquist Court took on an Imperial Congress that believed it could take away rights granted to individuals by passing nonsense legislation.”
    .
    The period when the Rehnquist Court set the record for overturning the most acts of Congress was 1996-2000.
    .
    Never thought I’d hear you say Gingrich and Dole were in charge of an Imperial Congress, but again, thanks for agreeing with me.

  • grape_crush

    …the position established by Tillman is that campaign donations –gifts– are restricted, not expenditures related to (necessarily giving rise to, like spending on the paper and glue it takes to put up fliers) speech.
    .
    Tillman prohibited monetary contributions to political campaigns by corporations – no defintion of direct or indirect. Tillman isn’t really the issue at the heart of the Citizens United decision, it’s just being used as a reference point as to how long corporate contributions (aka speech) to campaigns have been restricted, a precedent which has been in place since the 1907 Tillman decision – about a century ago.
    .
    If you wish to continue being pedantic about the type of political speech/monetary contributions that Tillman covers or doesn’t cover, go for it. The fact is that there is clear precedent for the regulation of corporate money/speech and political campaigns going back a century, and that the rationale for the Citizens United decision goes against that extablished precedent.

  • freeinpa

    Kevin:
    “.
    Yes, interpreting it according to their own politics and their own biases.”
    ==
    And liberals interpret laws that are not there from what? Messages from God? Tarot cards? At least then it would have a basis in something other than their biases or silly version of “social justice”

    ===
    “Never thought I’d hear you say Gingrich and Dole were in charge of an Imperial Congress,..”

    You were 100% correct after “Never thought”. Linerals don’t think, they feel. Unlike the unprincipled left, if the law or policy is wrong regardless of where it came from, conservatives believe it should be changed.

    ==
    The biggest lie today remains liberals lying to themselves.

  • licentiousmaximus

    Fact checking? When encountering these conservatives, one has to wonder if they really are this dumb or whether they intentionally misstate facts. The FACT is the only President in the last 30 years to run a balanced budget and bring down the deficit was BILL CLINTON. Every Republican has blown up the budget, this is easily verifiable and with this much intentional misinformation out there, the MSM should report this at every turn. The facts:

    The deficit was 900 Billion at 33% of GDP prior to Reagan taking office. By 1990 the deficit had almost TRIPLED to 3.2 TRILLION.

    The deficit was 5. 7 TRILLION at 57% of GDP when GW Bush took office in 2001. By the time W left the deficit stood at 9,985.8 TRILLION at 70% of GDP.

    Conservatives, expert liars, are attempting to muddy the waters. The MSM has a duty to double down on facts and actually inform the public in the fact of a wilfull and coordinated attempt to misinform. Then again, that misinformation works to the corporate owned media….so I wouldn’t hold my breath.

  • stuartzechman

    grape_crush:
    .
    Listen, it’s not being pedantic –what, are you spob, now?– it’s the heart of the dissent’s disagreement.
    .
    Your contention is that any spending constitutes a contribution to a campaign, correct?
    .
    If that’s not true, then correct me, please, and then tell me why you said “corporate contributions (aka speech) to campaigns“.
    .
    If that is true, then please answer this question:
    .
    If spend a few bucks on gas to drive to a bar in which I have a conversation with my friend, and try to persuade him that Barack Obama is the best candidate for President, does that gas money count toward my maximum individual contribution limit, since, according to you, it’s “in effect a contribution” to my favored politician?
    .
    Or is it your contention that only corporate expenditures on speech (like running an ad) constitute contributions, but when individuals (including the insanely wealthy, like Bill Gates) buy air-time for their favorite political ads, it’s not a campaign contribution? If this is so, what’s the rationale (in case law and otherwise, but especially case law) that supports this notion, grape_crush?

  • freeinpa

    http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html

    ==
    Speaking of expert liars. I am not sure where you got your “data” from but you are worng start to finish.

    I find it equally interesting that you say Clinton reduced the deficit but the day Bush took office the deficit was 57% of GDP. That must have been one expensive inauguration. After the Clinton administration left office there was a surplus. Just to help you with these matters, Congress passes all spending bills and through a Republican controlled Congress, spending by the Clinton was reined in. Republicans took control of Congress in 1994 after the HC fiasco which should give you a preview of the 2010 elections.

  • freeinpa

    Why in all of this liberal hand wringing today is there not the same outrage directed at the President for his attack on a another branch of the government in a similar fashion that Joe Wilson was attacked. Obama showed as much disrespect to the Supreme Court as Wilson supposedly did to Obama.
    ==
    There were 2 issues to note. Obama made the attack and the Supreme Court was unable to defend itself. That is a position the left and this President love, to attack the defenseless. And second, like Joe Wilson, the Supreme Court and Alito were right.

  • stuartzechman

    lorrandaring:

    Corporations on the other hand are different. As legal entities they have no fundamental, “human rights” and truly they are purpose built, financial and legal innovations designed and empowered to assist and aid human development. In my view they have no legitimate business in the electoral process.
    .
    But hey if you think they do, good for you. I’m still curious as to why on a fundamental level that you believe this?>

    First of all, the “electoral process” is a distinct concept from “political speech,” right?
    .
    The latter may or may not be a part of the former, correct? Also, political speech may be contemporaneous with an ongoing electoral process without necessarily being associated with or a function of that process. I can write a blog in which I talk about how much of a meathead Scott Brown is without that being related in any way to the special election, or the interested parties in the special election, correct?
    .
    If you accept all of those premises, then let’s move on to the heart of your contention, that corporations’ political speech affects “the electoral process,” and therefore is on its face illegitimate and to be restricted by the state, since corporations don’t, in your opinion, share rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights.
    .
    What would your opinion be regarding the Fourth Amendment, the protection against unreasonable search and seizure by the state?
    .
    Do corporations share that right, or do they not?
    .
    No single person owns the property of Credo Mobile, it is a corporate enterprise, with property and documents owned by the legal organization, not individuals.
    .
    Does the NSA have the constitutionally valid ability to break into Credo Mobile’s offices in the middle of the night, and copy the records of its subscribers, what organizations it has donated to on its subscribers’ behalf, make a duplicate of the bathroom key on the fifth floor, place listening and recording devices on their phone equipment without probable cause of a crime having occurred?
    .
    Is the government allowed to do that, because it’s just a corporation we’re talking about, not real people?
    .
    If your answer to that is “no”, then you accept the availability of the Fourth Amendment to corporations as well as live human individuals.
    .
    But what about the First Amendment, in which Congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech?
    .
    Well, it turns out that there’s a very, very important case, in which the Supreme Court decided that Corporations share First Amendment rights (and Fourteenth Amendment rights, actually) with real people called “NAACP v Button”. The Citizens Court referred to this case in their decision, as a matter of fact.
    .
    It turns out that, in 1963, the NAACP tried to advise citizens of their rights in the commonwealth of Virginia, and that was apparently against state law. No, really! Virginia tried, through statute it enacted regulating improper legal counsel, to stop the NAACP from speaking to folks about their legal rights!
    .
    So they went to court, and all the way to the Supreme Court, and the Court found this:

    Held:
    .
    The activities of petitioner [the NAACP, of course], its affiliates and legal staff shown on this record are modes of expression and association protected by the First and Fourteenth Amendments which Virginia may not prohibit, under its power to regulate the legal profession, as improper solicitation of legal business violative of Chapter 33 and the Canons of Professional Ethics. Pp. 417-445.
    .
    (a) Although petitioner is a corporation, it may assert its right and that of its members and lawyers to associate for the purpose of assisting persons who seek legal redress for infringement of their constitutionally guaranteed rights. P. 428.
    .
    (b) Abstract discussion is not the only species of communication which the Constitution protects; the First Amendment also protects vigorous advocacy, certainly of lawful ends, against governmental intrusion. P. 429.
    .
    (c) In the context of petitioner’s objectives, litigation is not a means of resolving private differences; it is a form of political expression, and a means for achieving the lawful objectives of equality of treatment by all governments, federal, state and local, for the members of the Negro community. Pp. 429-430.
    .
    (d) In order to find constitutional protection for the kind of cooperative, organizational activity disclosed by this record, it is not necessary to subsume such activity under a narrow, literal conception of freedom of speech, petition or assembly, for there is no longer any doubt that the First and Fourteenth Amendments protect certain forms of orderly group activity. Pp. 430-431.

    I know that’s a lot to wade through, and I’m sorry for having put the whole thing up, but you need to read it.
    .
    The Supreme Court held very clearly that the NAACP, a corporation and not a real, live person, was entitled to the same speech protections –especially political speech– that humans who walk around on two legs are entitled to under the First Amendment.
    .
    If you break that precedent for Enron trying to get Tom Delay elected, you kill it for the NAACP trying to help people understand their right to vote, too.
    .
    That’s why I said that I was ambivalent about this concept, because I’m really trying hard to think it all the way through, which involves applying it to many, many circumstances that don’t immediately come to mind.
    .
    Do you understand now what you’re advocating, lorrandaring?
    .
    Do you understand that you’re advocating that the government, Federal and state, be granted powers that they’ve not enjoyed for half a century, powers that would allow them to break in to offices, wiretap phones, and sue the NAACP for teaching folks about their voting rights –and win?
    .
    Can you start to think about all the applications of the First Amendment, and then reiterate your support for what you believe?
    .
    Thanks for reading and considering this, lorrandaring.

  • apollyon07

    Petty? What I think is petty is egging on Congress to jeer the least-partisan branch on live, national television. Good for Alito, I just wish it was Scalia instead.

  • macrobus

    @stuartzechman, lorrandaring, et al:

    I’ve greatly enjoyed the banter concerning the fine points of the law with regard to the “Tillman” sentence in the SOTU speech.

    If I recall correctly (and it’s been awhile since the top of this page), the main point was whether the President’s allusion to the Tillman Act of 1907 was factually correct, or a preposterous bit of license on his part. Along the way, much fun was had parsing the differences between the word “law” and the word “jurisprudence”.

    Isn’t it refreshing that that bit of arcana was the most controversial sentence of the night, as opposed to, oh, I don’t know…. “The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa .”

    Now, there’s sixteen words that could keep a man busy.

    I’m pro-Obama, and not a lawyer or politician, so I’m finding it fascinating how folks are clouding the original intent of a speaker’s message (in this case: more corporate influence on our political system = bad) by deconstructing and deliberating each word or turn of a phrase.

    Now, you are some smart folks on this board; I know this because I’ve read this whole thread and have yet to see the word “f***tard”. I’d be interested in your views on the President’s direct concern, since I think the parsing avenue is about exhausted. Is the recent 5-4 Supreme Court decision going to open up the floodgates of overwhelming corporate influence, or is it a minor issue?

    I read an interesting post elsewhere, to the affect that the actions of any corporation, and those of its Board of Directors, could be considered sociopathic, since by definition their first interest and concern is for the immediate benefit of the shareholders and corpus. Should corporate entities be given the same access to political discourse as citizens, who, at least occasionally consider the greater good of society when setting policy?

    Your thoughts?

  • lorrandaring

    Macrobus,

    To be honest I commented on this thread simply because I felt that some posters did not understand the danger of the Supreme Court decision for “regular folks”.

    My sole intent was to explain as best I could why the decision could lead to a perversion of the USA democracy.

    I have given up on stuartzechman for two reasons:
    1. I generally argue for at least $400 an hour;
    2. I have concluded that this whole exercise is a waste of my time.

    As a final note, companies have certain “rights” for 2 reasons.
    1. by proxy through their owners.
    2. because they are legal entities and they are given certain economic and property rights to carry out their specialized functions.

    in no way should corporations be allowed to directly and intentionally spend to influence the electoral process. Whether they do so or not is a question of fact. They liability would be determined by the effect of their actions and their imputed intention.

    I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that an american who I doubt has 50mil plus (whereby this decision would be great for him) is actually arguing that as if the supreme court decision can be seen as anything but a blow against democracy.

    I guess if you are rich and powerful (individual or organization) its just dandy.

  • grape_crush

    Just grape, please. Don’t put the extra wear on your fingers by typing the whole thing.
    .
    …it’s the heart of the dissent’s disagreement
    .
    Wrong. Tillman is one case out of a body of case law cited in the dissent, with the dissent’s emphasis “on a faulty understanding of Austin and McConnell” (Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce and McConnell v. FEC [page 90]) “and of our campaign finance jurisprudence more generally.”
    .
    ..then please answer this question…If spend a few bucks on gas to drive to a bar in which I have a conversation with my friend.
    .
    The answer is that it does not, but your scenario is a bad analogy. You’d be closer to a valid comparison if you had stated that you paid 300 people to drive to the bar with the express intent of talking up candidate X before tomorrow’s election. As such, you are acting as an agent of candidate X, and suitable campaign contribution limits and regulation should apply, even if the candidate in question did not endorse (or even knew about) your action.
    .
    Direct or indirect, the desired end result is the same. Even if Chinese walls were viable in this situation – candidate X never endorsed or even knew who provided the indirect contribution – it’s all intended to influence the outcome of the election and the subsequent direction of policy afterwards.
    .
    Let me push back: If corporations can spend any amount of money to buy more ‘free speech’ than an American of average income could, what does the Citizens United ruling say about the rights of citizens as stated in the 14th amendment to the Constitution? Specifically:

    No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States…

    Does the Citizens United decision allow non-citizen persons (corporations, unions) to have a greater amount of free speech – a larger megaphone – than citizens (all persons born or naturalized in the United States)?

  • macrobus

    @lorrandaring:

    So we are of a mind that this is indeed a complete game-changing decision.

    Re: $400./hr…..LOL
    The old Monty Python line comes to mind…”Well, you could be arguing in your spare time…”

  • stuartzechman

    lorrandaring:


    1. I generally argue for at least $400 an hour;

    I hope you don’t litigate on behalf of clients for $400/hour, because you don’t seem terribly interested in addressing arguments based in Court case law.

    2. I have concluded that this whole exercise is a waste of my time.

    Remember when I said you might want to try persuasion techniques involving declarations of your own superior qualities?
    .
    That was sarcasm.

    I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that an american who I doubt has 50mil plus…

    I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that somebody who implies that they’re a licensed, paid attorney won’t respond to whether NAACP v Button was decided properly by the Court.
    .
    I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that an American so impressed by their own intellect that they’d comically put together non sequiturs like:

    Whether they do so or not is a question of fact. They liability would be determined by the effect of their actions and their imputed intention.

    would still be unable to at least consider that, if the state can legislate that Enron can’t legally run ads in support of Tom Delay’s candidacy, it can also legislate that the NAACP can’t legally tell folks they have the right to vote.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Stuart~
    It’s truly fascinating to watch you at work. Very well done.
    ~
    The notion that everyday American citizens -those of the non-corporate variety, of course- are running around, clamoring for increased corporate leverage over American electoral decisions is absurd. Certainly, when taken on its own merits, such leeway would seem excessive. However, when viewed through the prism of myriad scenarios, as you so aptly outlined, the right of corporations to enjoy many of the privileges as citizens is wholly necessary. It’s naive to think otherwise. It’s much like the ongoing debate concerning lobbies. The very same people who may decry the influence of special interests in the legislature, generally have no qualms with a large proportion of actual lobbies and their initiatives. It’s just the self-serving lobbies that we want out, right? Not the righteous ones. Just as we may fight for the rights of the NAACP, but want to quash those of EXXON. However, the standards must be uniform, isn’t that the ideal American way?

  • Paul-no not that one

    I have to say this thread is why this place can be fun.

    Stupid issue, typical nothing from the author of this post, and a very interesting thread.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Staurt~
    I do believe he is a Brit, actually, as per the barrister comment.

  • stuartzechman

    macrobus:
    .
    First of all, thank so much for taking the time to read through all of that!
    .
    Second, I think that the effect of industry and finance using their special capital-accumulating abilities to advocate for their interests is a corrupting and a fatal degenerating of democratic government.
    .
    Understand? I think that there’s huge piles of evidence that practical oligopoly is the result of industry and finance electioneering (using the term from the Austin court) for their preferred candidate or legislation. It’s the death of our country, I believe, as it was nearly the death of our country a century ago.
    .
    The next question, though, has to be “How do we fix that with legislation, without destroying the rights the rest of us enjoy? How do we give the government certain mechanisms to restrict these malignant interests, without also ensuring that the state can restrict those we didn’t intend for it censor?
    .
    That’s the real problem, and I haven’t solved it for myself. As a liberal, I have to give primacy to a liberal, the most expansive, the least restrictive reading of the Bill of Rights, and to view government with as much suspicion as much as I do big industry.
    .
    So this is tough, and, like I’ve repeated in this commentary, I just don’t know the answer.
    .
    I haven’t heard a proposal yet that satisfies both requirements of a free and democratic society.
    .
    Thanks again for considering what I’ve written, macrobus

  • stuartzechman

    neorationalist86:

    he is a Brit

    Aha!
    .
    No, no, that still doesn’t explain it.
    .
    That comic set of non sequiturs doesn’t have anything to do with his nationality, I believe.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Macrobus~
    I read an interesting post elsewhere, to the affect that the actions of any corporation, and those of its Board of Directors, could be considered sociopathic, since by definition their first interest and concern is for the immediate benefit of the shareholders and corpus.
    .
    Actually, not so. I happen to work for a social-enterprise corporation. While we do not meet the stringent standards of a non-profit organization, we do adhere to a self-imposed model of community benefit. All profits that exceed our initial overhead go directly to charity or community programs. No shareholders profits. No corporate bonuses. No financial self-interest. Where precisely would we fit into these corporate restrictions? We are incorporated in the state of Delaware under standard guidelines, yet we impose our own direction of social interests. Should we be denied political speech simply because other incorporated institutions act out of self-interested financial incentives? Are there not individual voters among us, as well, who participate in the political process out of self-interest? Should their motives limit the rights of all citizens?

  • stuartzechman

    grape:
    .
    You make some good points.
    .
    Let me think about what you’ve written.

  • stuartzechman

    neorationalist86:
    .
    That is very high praise, coming from someone of your intellect.
    .
    You know what I really did today?
    .
    I coded and ran my first Android OS mobile application. It was fun. I did some other stuff, too, but that one was a little bit of a challenge, because I decided to learn Android in the late morning today.
    .
    You know how badly I suck?
    .
    I haven’t exercised in literally two months, and now I’m like, 12 pounds overweight. I’m just under 5’11″, and I weigh…hold on, I’m going to check…183 lbs.
    .
    OK, that’s not the worst, but I need to get back on the program right the crap now!
    .
    Anyway, it’s very generous of you to issue compliments like these, I appreciate it.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Grape~
    If corporations can spend any amount of money to buy more ‘free speech’ than an American of average income could, what does the Citizens United ruling say about the rights of citizens as stated in the 14th amendment to the Constitution?
    .
    Nothing, actually. Citizens’ privileges are not “abridged” simply because a corporation may have more resources at its disposal. This argument is comparable to the notion that the EPC is violated by income disparities.

  • stuartzechman

    18 and over, entertainment purposes only.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “18 and over”
    .
    Boy am I legal.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Stuart~
    I’m sure LB can overlook an extra pound or 12.

  • grape_crush

    Citizens’ privileges are not “abridged” simply because a corporation may have more resources at its disposal.
    .
    Correct, but that’s not my argument…If the use (not possession) of those resources – particularly by a non-citizen like a corporation – diminishes/abridges the free speech of citizens (such as buying up all the available airtime to air ads that support candidate X or paying for workers to disrupt town hall events), then that use of resources could be construed as an illegal act under the Equal Protection Clause..if we can’t make or enforce a law that abridges a citizen’s right to free speech, then the acts of a non-citizen entity that diminishes free speech should be even more verboten.
    .
    Beyond that…stating that a lnon-citizen legal entity like a corporation possesses comparable privileges and immunities to a citizen is absurd. While a corporation is considered a ‘person’ for legal purposes, I have yet to see any corporation declared a US citizen, with the right to vote or to run for public office. Why should free speech be different?
    .
    This argument is comparable to the notion that the EPC is violated by income disparities.
    .
    Seeing as how that’s not my argument, you’ll have to find another comparison.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Grape~
    Perhaps granting corporations “rights” is absurd. However, there is jurisprudential precedent nonetheless, see NAACP v Button. As Stuart pointed out, we don’t simply throw out the “unreasonable search and seizures” clause because a corporation is involved. Or, the right to counsel, or due process. Due process, specifically, is an essential principle of the American judiciary, regardless of whether the defendant is a citizen, a foreign national, or a corporation. So, can you frame the legal rationale behind excluding corporations from first amendment rights while retaining these other guarantees? Or, do you oppose the extension of counsel, due process, or search and seizure guidelines to corporations, as well? Where and why do we draw the line, in constitutional terms?
    ~
    Furthermore, I fail to see how the use of extensive capital by corporations to fund political messaging, i.e. buying airtime, infringes upon the privileges of citizens by reducing their access to this medium, while, say, PACs’ use of capital to do the same does not infringe upon the citizenry’s privileges. What distinguishes a corporation’s (non-citizen) use of resources from a lobbying group (non-citizen) in legal terms?

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Grape~
    Perhaps granting corporations “rights” is absurd. However, there is jurisprudential precedent nonetheless, see NAACP v Button. As Stuart pointed out, we don’t simply throw out the “unreasonable search and seizures” clause because a corporation is involved. Or, the right to counsel, or due process. Due process, especially, is an essential principle of the American judiciary, regardless of whether the defendant is a citizen, a foreign national, or a corporation. So, can you frame the legal rationale behind excluding corporations from first amendment rights while retaining these other guarantees? Or, do you oppose the extension of counsel, due process, or search and seizure guidelines to corporations, as well? Where and why do we draw the line, in constitutional terms?
    ~
    Furthermore, I fail to see how the use of extensive capital by corporations to fund political messaging, i.e. buying airtime, infringes upon the privileges of citizens by reducing their access to this medium, while, say, PACs’ use of capital to do the same does not infringe upon the citizenry’s privileges. What distinguishes a corporation’s (non-citizen) use of resources from a lobbying group (non-citizen) in legal terms?

  • mickster1

    Let see where the threshold is:

    Is it ok if all four justices who voted against the Citizens United ruling stand and applaud when Obama criticizes the Supreme Court ruling. Would that be ok. But only if passes fact checking? Or when Obama supports Roe V. Wade. No problem? We’ll just let Michael Scherer and his factcheckers decide. They all have Consititutional law credentials. Right? This is not more a stupid issue than Joe Wilson yelling. Happens in the British Parliament all the time. Let’s turn the SOTU into same partisan circus as now exists in Congress 99% of the time. Really it’s only the Supreme Court. They shouldn’t have a different standard than Joe Wilson should they? They can yell and make catcall whenever they choose. No biggie. Why should anyone complain? It’s what the 1st amendment is all about. And if they want to bring assault rifles, why not? Its there right. Scalia would have not problem showing up with fully loaded mac10 or Uzi if he wants. It’s his 2nd Amendment right. No problemo.

  • http://mcrose68.wordpress.com mcrose68

    Conservatives are really sensitive aren’t they. I just don’t see what the big deal is; did Obama really take a swipe at the court?

    Obama said that the court overturned a century of precedent : The Tileman act of 1907 and later on Taft Hartley explicitly treated corporations differently than Human American Citizens. That distinction was overturned with this decision. And overturning precedent is the unique privilege of the Supreme Court. So where is the supposed insult that conservatives are so pained about??

    Obama then said that foreign entities could now participate in the US electioneering. Since foreign people can and do own and control American corporations, I can’t see how anyone can suggest that this ruling doesn’t allow them to participate in US elections.

    So where is the “not true” that Alito is alluding to?

  • newfreedomblog

    I have avoided writing anything on this subject in hopes of reading what others on here that I respect their opinions may say, and with their research conclude with citation.
    .
    However, I have to agree with those who are for limitations on any non-human entity who want to spend money to influence elections.
    .
    Simply, I believe allowing corportate influence into our democracy, which is really a Republic (protection of the individual and the minority as well as the majority), should not recognize a coporation as an individual with regards to political aspirations.
    .
    It allows for people like George Sorros to set up multiple corporations with his billions of dollars to unfairly influence a political outcome. The same as Exxon or any other big business or multi-national.
    .
    So, I conclude the Supreme Court like President Obama has said, has opened the door to potential abuse.

  • freeinpa

    Linda Greenhouse, no friend of the current Supreme Court, came out and said not only was Obama wrong to publicly admonish the Supreme Court in the SOTU but he was wrong on the facts. He is proving to be as big a farce as a Constitutional scholar as he is a President.

    ==
    It wasn’t his only misstep about the Constitution in his “lecture”.

    “We find unity in our incredible diversity, drawing on the promise enshrined in our Constitution: the notion that we are all created equal….”

    The we are all created equal… actually comes from that obscure document called the Declaration of Independence. That’s what happens when you elect a “C” student from Columbia. If Bush had a similar flub it would be a Saturday Night Routine for weeks.

    Somebody better give the Teleprompter detention!

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    mcrose68~
    You are incorrect actually. There are numerous Supreme Court decisions that treat corporate institutions as protected under the same privileges and rights bestowed upun individual citizens, see NAACP v Button, for example. The Tilman Act did not speak to the general principle of extending constitutional rights to corporations, so the Citizens United decision in no way overturns Tilman or any other precedent of the last century.
    ~
    As for sensitivity, you have it confused. Conservatives, or more precisely, those who support the Citizens United decision are merely pointing out that Alito was correct in suggesting that it is “not true” that this latest USSC ruling overturns a century of precedent. It is liberals, or more precisey, those who oppose the ruling that have become hypersensitive, clamoring on about the ediquette and protocal and how Alito slighted both with his innocuous gesture.

  • http://www.jesus-on-taxes.com Ned Netterville

    Think Obama is p-o-ed at the five justices now, imagine how he will feel if Congress is able to pass legislation to “reform” health care, and the Supreme Court, again five to four, rules that the mandate requiring citizens to purchase insurance is unconstitutional. And because the mandate is vital to the overall objective of the legislation, the Court voids it entirely. There certainly is no clause in the Constitution that could be rationally construed to authorize the federal government to force citizens to spend money to enrich the insurance industry, not even if the president wants them to do so

  • grape_crush

    …we don’t simply throw out the “unreasonable search and seizures” clause because a corporation is involved. Or, the right to counsel, or due process.
    .
    Conversely, we do throw out the right to vote and hold office, because a corporation is a legal fiction, not a ‘natural person’, and cannot become a US citizen. This fiction was invented because the law required a way to interact with an entity like a corporation, not because corporations are real persons.
    .
    So, can you frame the legal rationale behind excluding corporations from first amendment rights while retaining these other guarantees?
    .
    Sure!
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    1) Legal fictions do not have the same rights as natural citizens.
    .
    2) Diminishment of free speech is allowable when exercise of that right goes against the public interest. Think false advertising, fraud, etc.
    .
    3) Here’s the tricky part. Allowing unlimited independent expenditures in connection with elections is not in the public interest. Let’s look at the definition from the [link] FEC website:

    An independent expenditure is an expenditure for a communication which expressly advocates the election or defeat of a clearly identified candidate and which is made independently from the candidate’s campaign. To be considered independent, the communication may not be made with the cooperation, consultation or concert with, or at the request or suggestion of, any candidate or his/her authorized committees or a political party, or any of their agents. While there is no limit on how much anyone may spend on an independent expenditure, the law does require persons making independent expenditures to report them and to disclose the sources of the funds they used. The public can review these reports at the FEC’s Public Records Office.

    My opinion is that there can be no such thing as truly independent expenditure.

    A) Once a corporation makes the expenditure to express support for the campaign of candidate X, they are a de facto agent of that campaign. That corporation is working to further the goals of that campaign, and have become part of that campaign, whether it’s coordinated with the campaign or not. This is not the main point, however.
    .
    B) The fact is that the expenditure cannot be kept secret from the candidate, his/her committees, political party, or agents as the source of the expenditure must be reported and will be known…this creates an unwanted and very real potential for ‘off-the-record’ collaboration during an election and greatly increased influence on the part of the expender if the candidate gains public office.
    .
    It’s not in the public’s best interest to allow these unlimited not-so independent expenditures to negatively impact the democratic process we have in place.
    .
    So, to summarize:
    .
    1) There is precedent for differing rights for people versus corporations.
    .
    2) There is precedent for restriction of free speech when it is not in the public interest or well-being.
    .
    3) Allowing unlimited so-called ‘independent’ expenditures in connection with elections is not in the public interest.
    .
    I fail to see how the use of extensive capital by corporations to fund political messaging, i.e. buying airtime, infringes upon the privileges of citizens by reducing their access to this medium, while, say, PACs’ use of capital to do the same does not infringe upon the citizenry’s privileges.
    .
    Ah. PAC contributions are limited, as are individual contributions. The amount of free speech these contributions can buy are governed; no single person or entity has a megaphone that can completely drown out everything else. That (weak form of) balance is not possible when you allow individuals or corporations to make unlimited expenditures (and not just for airtime)…again, it’s against the public interest.
    .
    What distinguishes a corporation’s (non-citizen) use of resources from a lobbying group (non-citizen) in legal terms?
    .
    Sorry; not a lawyer. You’ll have to find a way to translate all that into legal terms.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Thanks for the insights, Grape.
    .
    I understand what you are saying in practical terms, and I don’t disagree as a matter of desirability. However, constitutionally speaking, you still fail to explain why the First Amendment cannot be extended to corporations. You suggest that the right to vote and hold office are limited to citizens and therefore it would stand to reason that the First Amendment rights, too, can be denied to non-citizens. I submit, however, that the explicit wording of particular articles and amendments either endows rights upon citizens or in general. To whit:
    .
    No person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the age of twenty five years, and been seven years a citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an inhabitant of that state in which he shall be chosen. ~Article I, Section I~
    .
    No Senator or Representative shall, during the time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil office under the authority of the United States, which shall have been created, or the emoluments whereof shall have been increased during such time: and no person holding any office under the United States, shall be a member of either House during his continuance in office. ~Article I, Section 6~
    .
    The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude. ~Amendment ~XV~

    These are rights clearly endowed upon the citizens of the United States, not corporations or any other non-human entity. To the contrary:
    .
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech [freedom for whom?], or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. ~Amendment I~
    .
    With the exception of assembly and petition, these rights are not expressly endowed upon mere citizens or the people. They are simply rights. They can be applied to corporations, constitutionally.
    ~
    You’ve further submitted, though, that First Amendment rights can be limited in the name of public interest. However, by what do we measure the public interest? It could be argued that having more campaign information on each candidate better informs the electorate and therefore corporate funding of political messaging is in the public interest. Fact-based advertisements that portray the realities of the candidates ensures a more vibrant democracy by increasing the ability of the candidates to be fully understood by voters. You see Grape, the public interest is both ambiguously defined and imperfectly applied. The public interest can be used as the basis for any number of arguments, so long as some lucid correlation can be established, such as that which I just laid out. Just remember, limiting the speech of corporations in the electoral process can have grave consequences for any number of institutions in the United States. There are broader implications at play.

  • grape_crush

    You still fail to explain why the First Amendment cannot be extended to corporations.
    .
    Incorrect. I did not explain that at all, as it’s irrelevant in regards to this issue. It’s not necessary to identify all circumstances in which free speech can be extended or not (or even if a corporation has rights equivalent to a citizen); the point was that a) the restriction of free speech is certainly not taboo, particularly when b) such restriction is in the public interest.
    .
    I submit, however, that the explicit wording of particular articles and amendments either endows rights upon citizens or in general.
    .
    That relies on a rather generous interpretation of the Constitution, doesn’t it? A corporation cannot sit in a church pew, possesses no mouth with which to speak, nor eyes to observe or hands to wirte, and no legs to walk to a gathering. Asking the question “freedom for whom?” is an invalid query, as a corporation is a fiction, a legal conceit that does not exist independently outside the minds of men. Granting a right to free speech to a corporation is like granting free speech to a theory or mathematical equation or some other idea.
    .
    With the exception of assembly and petition, these rights are not expressly endowed upon mere citizens or the people.
    .
    And they are not expressly inclusive of non-citizen legal entities, as well…So it’s a matter of interpretation.
    .
    However, since the Bill of Rights was created to protect the basic principles of human liberty, a reasonable interpretation would be that the Free Speech clause was intended for real people and not the English East India Company.
    .
    It could be argued that having more campaign information on each candidate better informs the electorate…Fact-based advertisements that portray the realities of the candidates…
    .
    There’s a paucity of campaign information on candidates? What measures are in place to ensure that said information provided by a corporation is accurate? How do measure if an electorate is ‘better informed’ by corporate campaign expenditures? What mechanism is in place to deter corporations from providing misleading or false information? Can that mechanism be corrupted? Who determines what is ‘fact’?
    .
    I could go on, but you should be able to tell that it’s a weak argument.
    .
    …the public interest is both ambiguously defined and imperfectly applied.
    .
    Agreed.
    .
    The public interest can be used as the basis for any number of arguments…
    .
    Then let’s have them laid out and see whether they are valid arguments. Of those, let’s figure out which ones outweigh the others. Like I said, it’s tricky.
    .
    Limiting the speech of corporations in the electoral process can have grave consequences…
    .
    When it comes to campaign contributions, corporations are already limited, and have been for years. This hasn’t caused the US to collapse. If there are other ‘grave consequences’, I’d like to know what they are.
    .
    There are broader implications at play.
    .
    Such as?

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