In the Arena

A Good Fight

The Chinese, who have been acting pompous and huffy on the global stage in recent years, are upset that Hillary Clinton has challenged them on internet censorship. Too bad. This is a good fight to have–and a very good moment to show the Chinese that we’re not going to be pushed around.

Not all human rights issues are good fights. I spent a month in China in 1993 and had regular arguments with Chinese friends about their notion of freedom versus ours. I remember Chinese academic saying, “You’re lecturing us on how to treat people, but you warehouse your parents in nursing homes.” But I would imagine that there will be an awful lot of support from Chinese academics, and young people, and entrepreneurs for a challenge to their government’s archaic efforts to control the flow of information in a global business environment where transparency and the unfettered flow of information are necessary to compete and thrive.

Furthermore, it is time for the United States to begin pressuring China publicly on its unwillingness to play a positive role in global diplomatic efforts–from climate change to Iran’s nuclear program. The Chinese–who live by a socio-religious code (Confucianism) that is based in a precise and ornate brand of etiquette–showed shocking disrespect for the American President in Copenhagen…and perhaps also in Beijing. Obama, as is his wont, refused to be rude in return. But, if he hopes to be an effective diplomat, he is going to have to show the Chinese that he can be strong…and that there is a price to be paid for disrespect.

In the end, the most important point is this: The Chinese own our debt, but they don’t own us. In fact, we have them over a barrel…and we should use our leverage the same way the big banks did, by forcing them to support us. After all, we’re too big to fail.

Related Topics: Barack Obama, China, Google, internet freedom, Uncategorized
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  • stuartzechman

    Hmmm…
    .
    pompous and huffy“…”pompous and huffy“…
    .
    Why does that seem to ring a bell somewhere?

  • Cliff

    The Chinese–who live by a socio-religious code (Confucianism) that is based in a precise and ornate brand of etiquette
    .
    You know, I’ve also heard that they enjoy eating rice, drinking tea, and fighting with their feet.

  • urbandk

    Excellent post, and good moral and political advice.

  • jcapan

    You unbelievably condescending f@ck. “I spent a month in China in 1993 and had regular arguments with Chinese friends about their notion of freedom versus ours. I remember Chinese academic…” Let no one question your expertise. I mean, this is heady stuff, akin to “I have black friends!” It’s no surprise that you unleash such an utterly ignorant and dismissive statement like: [Chinese] “who live by a socio-religious code (Confucianism) that is based in a precise and ornate brand of etiquette.”

    Let’s go to (socialist!) Wiki:

    “Confucianism (Chinese: 儒家; pinyin: Rújiā) is a Chinese ethical and philosophical system developed from the teachings of the Chinese philosopher Confucius (Kǒng Fūzǐ, or K’ung-fu-tzu, lit. “Master Kong”, 551–478 BC). It is a complex system of moral, social, political, philosophical, and quasi-religious thought that has had tremendous influence on the culture and history of East Asia. It might be considered a state religion of some East Asian countries, because of governmental promotion of Confucian philosophies.”

    To imply that the primary basis of this rich tradition is mere etiquette is preposterous. And be clear, when you condescend to China, you’re also condescending to East Asia, where confucianism is equally influential (i.e. Korea & Japan). In fact, many would argue that it’s strongest in Korea, followed by Japan and lastly by China. But hey, perhaps the people should embrace Christianity Brit, I mean Joe. B/C god knows that political philosophy has proven so morally superior in world history.

  • destor23

    I agree it’s a fight worth having but given that, why does the US government, which should be the instrument of our foreign policy, allow companies like Microsoft to aid and abet Chinese oppression? We can simply forbid them from doing so, it is that easy.

  • stuartzechman

    JC:
    .
    It’s beyond preposterous, it’s the willful, shameless parading of ignorance. Sometimes he really does resemble the populist know-nothings he despises –it’s incredible that he can’t recognize this before he hit’s the “submit” button.
    .
    What an unbelievable statement for a supposedly educated person to make…
    .
    Shocking, really.
    .
    It’s like saying that Plato’s Republic is about proper manners. It’s a moronic assertion.
    .
    One can only hope some kind of mitigating statement is forthcoming…something about how this was meant as a rhetorical flourish, and not as a real description of history…

  • cfukara

    ” .. had regular arguments with Chinese friends about their notion of freedom versus ours. ..”

    I wonder. Did JK argue in support of our ‘notions’ while the Chinese had to argue in support of their ‘practices’? In our real world, one side of that debate may find it easier than the other .. [For instance, the world is mesmerized by BHO's sweet notions on the "Brotherhood of Man" and a respect for the sovereignty of other nations - yet once the euphoria wears off, they may find it difficult to argue in support of his actions in the real world in which he plots and promotes covert and overt militaristic actions that destabilize countries and/or gratuitously and wantonly kill innocents by the multitudes in Iran, ... Pakistan, Yemen, ...Haiti, ... Afghanistan, Iraq, .... Africa .. (and more to come)]

    What is JK’s take on OUR notion of “freedom” – which is entirely consistent with our practices – no ifs and buts?

    Did JK start of his pontification by clearly stating what that ‘notion’ is and to what extent we live up to it – or did he leave it to the Chinese to make assumptions (based entirely or in part, on our gains from worldwide psyche war that prominently features JK and our MSM)?

    Case (1)—- a good example of our MSM as an essential tool in our psyche wars.
    All men of goodwill everywhere feel scandalized, so our MSM tell us, when the, eh, hunted isn’t sorry for the hunter.

    Case (2)—– a good example of our movie stars as a willing tool in our psyche wars.
    One Israeli dies and JK demands action from the world. A million people perish in the Congo each year (a 9/11 every day) and we are not bothered. Comparatively few die in the Sudan and our bleeding-heart movie stars are all enraged .. [Hint: Where aren't we in control of coveted local resources?]


    OK, take the case of “internet censorship”.
    There are many ways of seriously putting a damper on “free speech”. Should we denounce one method as more deplorable that the other if both lead to the same end result?
    One way is to let people know – and get dreaded confirmation – that big brother is watching. Would JK suggest that the online activities of Americans are entirely private and that nobody has come to grief as a result?

    And would JK propose laws that outlaw filters of any kind – especially those which are aimed at protecting our kids.

    Should employers be allowed to access or take into account what we ‘say’ online. Should our pronouncements, (political) associations or our activities online be a factor when we are considered for that job or that position in the Obama administration?

    ===off topic – still about duplicity
    Nature of Institutionalized racism: The Haitianists are coming!
    If a comparable epic calamity hit Italy or UK or Israel, I bet that the Obama administration and especially whoever came up with this suggestion for the victims from those lands of our kith and kin AND founding fathers (!) would pay dearly …..
    http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/21/haiti.guantanamo/

  • http://www.124monkeys.com Sean DeCoursey forgot his password

    Joe,
    -
    I think the principle you were trying to express at the end with the “too big to fail” argument is this:
    -
    “If you owe someone $1 million, they own you. If you owe someone $10 billion you own them.” The amount of U.S. debt China owns pretty much means we own them.

  • jcapan

    SZ, for other fine examples see here:
    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/15/opinion/15iht-edcohen.html?_r=1
    .
    and here:
    .
    http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/07/16/what-remains-rotten-in-russia/
    .
    The sad fact is there’s a hefty audience that sucks this crap up (the other/other place is bad so rest assured, things here aren’t as bad as you may think/don’t ask for anything more than our state gives you)

  • jcapan

    This doesn’t mean that Chinese (or Russian or Japanese) society is without signif. flaws. Utopia is where, exactly. With intelligent, respectful folks, those flaws can be discussed. But when it’s coupled with such thinly veiled disdain and jingoistic hubris… Again, Joe could stand in for the David Brooks Taibbi crucifies here:
    .
    http://trueslant.com/matttaibbi/2009/12/23/onward-christian-warriors/

  • stuartzechman

    For once, I’m not happy to have read your links, Oregon JC.
    .
    This fatuous crap is just shameful.
    .
    This is the daily literary diet of our educated class?
    .
    Great.
    .
    Don’t stop thinkin’ about tomorrow, JC.

  • jcapan

    BTW, after reading GG’s Sat. post, I have a better read on his position. Particularly his pt. about the dissenting opinion, that it wasn’t turning on the issues many assume, is convincing. I still can’t get:
    .
    “As for the question of whether corporations possess ‘personhood,’ that’s an interesting issue and, as I said, I’m very sympathetic to the argument that they do not”
    .
    No idea why he offers such tempered language there.

  • stuartzechman

    I don’t know either, but since the ruling has zero to do with that issue, I can understand his reticence.

  • formerlyjames

    I completely agree with the sentiments expressed in reaction to the post, especially jcapan, who I also thank for the links to xenophobic rants. The MS post, which I had completely forgotten about was most illuminating, since i visited Russia in October after the July post and drew complete opposite conclusions and nothing but respect for Russian culture and civilized society.
    .
    The problem with America’s foreign policy is America’s attitude toward the rest of the world, as well as its attitude toward itself and its place in the world.
    .
    Klein has made no secret of his support of our country butting into wherever and whenever business of other nations it feels compelled based on that misconstrued sense of superiority. I don’t agree. Even most Russians under Stalin felt no need to be rescued. That applies as well today throughout the world. America is not always the savior it harbors illusions of being.

  • formerlyjames

    One more thought. Klein rightfully challenges the neocon philosophy, or at least their actions, but his thoughts here are nothing but neocon.

  • formerlyjames

    One more thought. Reagan and the U.S. bringing down the Soviet empire is a right wing myth. The Russians did that in their own good time.

  • stuartzechman

    This is hilarious

    In fact, we have them over a barrel…and we should use our leverage the same way the big banks did, by forcing them to support us. After all, we’re too big to fail.

    , because, even after having made that analogy, Joe Klein thinks the solution to Too Big To Fail is to tax the banks to recover TARP funds (while the Fed is still handing out no-interest, no principle loans hand over fist that the banks will use to pay whatever taxes actually are levied), instead of actually re-passing prohibitions on the kind of mergers that produced CitiGroup out of CitiBank and Travelers’ Group Insurance, and breaking up the Too Big To Fail institutions.
    .
    He thinks we’re such morons that the idea of taxing the banks will appeal to us mouthbreathing idiots, because we just hate the banks right now, and haven’t been paying attention to what’s actually wrong. He thinks that we’ll acquire some kind of amnesia after our monkey-like anger cools (and there’s another scandal to pitch), and we won’t notice that the same Too Big To Fail institutions are still Too Big To Fail after all of the new populism sales pitch from Obama and rah-rah, “Let’s go get them big ol’ mean banks!” from Joe. Oh, and we also somehow won’t notice that people are still being foreclosed on right and left by the same Too Big To Fail banks, ’cause we’re sooooo stupid, at least according to him.
    .
    Hi-larious.

  • cfukara

    ” .. the world is mesmerized by BHO’s sweet notions … or did he leave it to the (listeners) to make assumptions ..”

    Consider the craftiness evident in his duplicitous speeches in Cairo and in Accra: He leaves it to the listeners – especially the gullible youth who as yet don’t have a working familiarity with our/his imperial ways – to assume that he is an adult leader – that is, an adult person, a person of honour and hence a person of his/her word who, by their cultural frame of reference, practices what (s)he preaches.

    Bad assumption: Thousands of pious, proselytising, Christian (child-molesting) priests and preachers fail that yardstick. It is a tragic assumption that led (and still leads) many a trusting society the world over to their extinction at the hands of the treacherous british

    ” .. Nature of Institutionalized racism ..”
    Many (perhaps not including JK) have referred to India as “the world’s largest democracy”. Would the millions of the low-caste Indians agree that they are enfranchised and empowered in that ‘democracy’? Does it matter if some or most in what we call a ‘democracy’ live day-to-day with the realities of life-altering discrimination?
    Can ‘democracy’ or ‘freedom’ or ‘free society’ be said to exist in a country said to have institutionalized racism – say, if JK and his people are at the receiving end of it?

    Does ‘emphathy’ come into it at all? Would society that embraces and celebrates ‘democracy’ or ‘freedom’ or ‘free society’ try so hard for so long to find a pretext to invade another country and thereby maiming, slaughtering, and wreaking grief to millions of innocent people – in pursuit of their victims’ resources?

    JK is often quick to denigrate… What is JK’s notion of a “democracy” and who actually measures up to it?

  • cfukara

    ” .. he Obama administration .. would pay dearly ….. ..”

    I don’t have to mention Rush “O-how-I-hate-Obama!” Limbaugh.
    How about Glen “racist-Obama-hates-us” Beck?

  • stuartzechman

    I’m sorry, that’s meant to read “…no interest, no collateral loans…

  • cfukara

    ” .. we’re too big to fail. ..”

    Don’t count on it: Those Chinese guys may believe in renewal through death and re-birth
    - as in re-incarnation ( of the old LEADING superpower USA into a new .. ahem, ..)
    - OR as in “from the ashes of the old shall rise the beautiful phoenix”, free of abnoxious Limbaughs and Cheneys and Wolfowitzs and Aetnas (and MSMs) …

    So, please, don’t count your eggs before they are scrambled ..

  • Cliff

    He thinks we’re such morons that we’ll be placated by the notion that we’re too big to fail for China to have any leverage over us.
    .
    If Klein had said, “the situation is more complicated than that, we’re interdependent now” I’d have bought that.
    .
    Instead, he’s selling this line that the US acting exactly like the ruinous SOBs that crash landed our economy is a good thing, and he expects us to swallow it.

  • Cliff

    Yeah, I loved the way he encapsulated a thousand years of Chinese history and culture into a single phrase (they’re Confucian!).
    He might as well have called them a bunch of inscrutable Orientals while he was at it.

  • iwilliamkong

    I would say it is not yet the time for President Obama and the Americans to show their “price for disrespect”. Also, I would say Hillary Clinton ever attempted to use the Censorship as a fight against China to address the disrespect of Obama. However, under such circumstances, it is possible to link this two issues together. In my opinion, it is just that America was not been given its respect as once it was. but who to blame if the economy of America is down and asking for help from various countries?
    To begin such a fight is never going to get good results for both American and China. Let’s not call it a fight.

  • joaquimaugustoleal

    So, mr Klein, you’re now commenting on China?
    How about the Massachusets disaster?
    Are the nihilistic republicans in tune with the american people or not?
    Are you corageous enough to acknowledge Obama’s failure as president?

  • kkukhahn

    I hope our neuoric obsessive compulsive thing worshipping businessmen try to tell the Chinese how to run their economy. Do these idiots think they are going to become slave trading Capitalists? I think I am going to get a lot of laugs out of this. I hope they throw the trash right out of their country and keep all of their property and goods. Capitalism is now obsolete and proved to be irrational. HA, HA, HA , Ha, Ha. They are using the greedy trash and I think it is great.

  • tellthetruth2

    what should American bother of internet censorship in China.? Do American politicians have enough headache at home?
    Mr Obama is facing an almost impossible task to fight those
    greedy Wall St. bankers. Average debt per American citizen is $347,238. US mountain debt is mainly supported by those countries with huge reserves.It is hard for anyone to lecture his banker what to do. Leave Chinese problem for themselves
    to solve .just MYOB….

  • chenliang8

    I suggest the author of the article had better update his knowledge of the topic he can’t help putting a comment on. Maybe this passage would be prevailing during the beginning of last century of china,even around the world.
    But these days,it would only be something foul that nevertheless will make the author himself disdained.
    Actually,chinese people are striving to make their country a better place which is beneficial not only to the people there but also to the government.This is only a matter of time and means to attain it.
    We still remember the events happened in 1989,but the result is vain and bloody.The only thing we have to bear in mind is that personal liberty and democracy is a beautiful dream not only kept in the mind of the Americans but also in the mind of the chinese people. Any one who views china with bias which god knows getting from where and enthusiastically urges china to change radically is equal to telling the people of china how to suicide.
    Please imagin two families,one with a father of free-mindedness,and the other has not.and the father of the first family always bears in mind how to transform the other family into the same one as theirs, not only in code of practice,but also the way the other father regulates the family. We can say maybe the first family’s father is without malignity,but the way he does is foolish and doom to failure.I think the best way to do is respect the father of the other family and be on well terms with him,and give advice on him gradually,but never too radical.(But all this is of course based on the condition that everything from the first father’s family is surelly far more better than the other family’s, but who knows which is better!)

  • Friar Tuck

    Evidently, China has a Drudge siren all its own.

  • stuartzechman

    LOL

  • formerlyjames

    What China needs is a good dose of that good old American religion. They don’t know what censorship and repression is yet. The American catholic bishops and other religious fundamentalists can teach them a lesson or so. Just like they do our democratic political system (and the theocracy they pray for). Forget all this Confucianism nonsense. We got repression in spades to show.

  • formerlyjames

    And listen to this, China. We got jews who will kill without a thought. With American funded weapon systems. Watch out.

  • arcticnite

    So you lived in China for a month in 1993. In 1993? Where have you been for the past 17 years? Aside from the fact that this probably disqualifies you from pontificating on Chinese-American relations; you are missing a bigger issue.

    Why do we even want this fight?

    China is the up and coming world economic super power; recently replacing Japan as the world’s second largest economy..only behind America. It will soon challenge us for the ‘top dog’ spot on the world stage. They have accomplished this largely as a result of a never ending stream of cheap labor. There are hundreds of millions of rural residents still itching for a $100 a month factory job.

    My take is that we should NOT encourage open and free exchanges of ideas or infomation. Why give them added strength and a bigger advantage? I say that we close down Google, Bing and discourage all other technological exchanges; this only encourages them to learn and innovate. Let the Chinese continue to be a ‘copy cat’ society; as there is no long term strength or threat in that approach.

    Their ‘managed’ market economy is fragile. They must maintain break neck economic growth (8-10%) just to provide jobs for the tens of thousands of university and high school graduates every year. This growth is already leading to heafty inflation which is the doom of any economy. China is a country of three classes, the affluent urban, the poor rural and corrupt government officials. They are consistantly at odds with each other.

    If we leave them to their own devices, the country will eventually implode and our trillions of dollars in debt will be absolved.

  • http://resitanceisfutile.wordpress.com resitanceisfutile

    “In the end, the most important point is this: The Chinese own our debt, but they don’t own us. In fact, we have them over a barrel…and we should use our leverage the same way the big banks did, by forcing them to support us. After all, we’re too big to fail.”

    UMMMMMMMM

    I beg to differ, China has the USA over a barrel

    if the USA were to default on its debt

    ANY country foreign or domestic creditor can block any future American debt issuances until THEY THE CREDITOR IS SATISFIED with there debt restructuring…

    just look at Argentina who defaulted on their 100 billion government debt…

    they have not been able to issue new debt for 9 years because holders of just 30 billion of that debt have blocked new issuances, because of being unsatisfied with their debt restructuring…

    how much US debt does China own? 780 bllion?

  • http://resitanceisfutile.wordpress.com resitanceisfutile

    he Chinese government has 4 Trillion in reserves…2.5 trillion of it in foreign reserves, of that, 1.6 Trillion is in US debt or dollars…

    China will calls in its loans if there is trouble at home…
    yes they will take a hit on that 800 billion US debt and 800 billion in Dollars

    BUT…

    The Chinese government will unpeg the the Renminbi to the dollar…dump their US debt and dollars

    causing a rise in the Chinese Renminbi

    the Chinese PEOPLE who have just as much money, stowed away in bank accounts denominated in the Chinese Renminbi, meaning

    at least 75 million middle class Chinese who have a average of $80000 US equivalent in there Renminbi accounts(maybe as high as 300 million)…and 30 million rich Chinese

    will all see there money DOUBLE in value…if China dumps its US holdings…

    meaning 100 million Chinese (maybe up too 400 million) today… even more in the future with cash

    to buy up an America that will be 50% cheaper too them…

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