In the Arena

Re: Why Incremental Health Care Reform Won’t Work

Karen is absolutely right about the health insurance vicious cycle–unless you really go for it and put health insurers under even more public control and regulate their profits, like public utilities, you can’t stop the health premium spiral that would occur if the insurers were forced to cover everyone. But does anyone actually think something like that can pass the Congress? Yeah, me neither.

The strong sense I have is that significant health care reform is quite dead for the forseeable future…

absent a perceived crisis–like, say, a world where 80% of Americans are no longer satisfied with the health care they receive. Most of the politicians I’ve spoken with recently, on both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue, believe that the whole thing has gone on too long, that every day spent messing around with health care now is a day they lose altitude in the polls. They want to try working their legislative wonders on other issues. One can hardly wait to see how the Congress guts financial reform. (In that regard, if the President wants to tax banks, he probably should have proposed a full-fledged financial derivatives transaction tax–and allowed the Congress to trim it down to the less painful levy he proposed.)

As for health care, there are four other things that can be done this year: A modest expansion of coverage, to the parents of children eligible for the SCHIP program…and the passage of the national health care exchange included in the House bill, a supermarket where individuals and small businesses can go and have the negotiating power with the insurance industry that big companies like Time-Warner now do. A third incremental bit–a crucial cost containment piece–would be to push as hard as possible for Medicare reform, in which the system begins to look more like the Mayo or Cleveland Clinic, with doctors paid salaries rather than for each separate service performed. The fourth increment would be to overturn the anti-trust protections that the insurance companies currently enjoy. (If the Tea Party crowd is really against the depredations of the powerful, I’d like to see them oppose that one.)

A long-term strategy would be to gradually expand coverage to more people…and to allow employers to join the Exchange. Over time, you’ll reach a critical mass where Karen’s vicious cycle would no longer apply.

Yes, yes, I know. A single payer system would be more efficient and sane. I still believe the real bargain to be made here is with big companies–as Ron Wyden’s wise plan proposed–in which a system of progressive tax credits and subsidies for the working poor allows corporations to exit the health-care business…and the government, by virtue of its tax credits and subsidies, becomes the single payer of health insurance premiums, as in Switzerland. But right now, I don’t have the confidence that this Congress could pass a bill putting a stop sign on my street corner.  There is blame is shared across the board, but there is a hierarchy:

1. Republicans get the most blame. They are not interested in the public weal at all, just in beating Democrats. They are the Death Panels, every day and every night, for thousands of American who lose their lives because they can’t afford, or be eligible for, health insurance. The two Senators from Maine, who showed signs of wanting to pass this bill but caved to political pressure, should be reminded of this constantly.

2. Moderate Senators like Joe Lieberman and Ben Nelson–and yes, Max Baucus, too–for forcing embarrassing deals and allowing the process to drag on for far too long. Lieberman was particularly dreadful, standing full-square against the public option, a minor provision. I wonder how many other bills he voted for, despite minor provisions he didn’t like. Nelson special Medicaid deal from the good people of Nebraska was disgraceful

3. But then again, why on earth did the White House allow itself to get into a position where giving Nelson that bribe became crucial? The Administration should for political malpractice for not getting it about the legislative dynamics here–the unanimous Republican opposition, the leverage thereby given to slugs like Lieberman and Nelson–and for not moving forward first on legislative projects with more popular appeal.

4. Moderate Congressmen like Bart Stupak, who used health care reform as an excuse for expanding anti-abortion legislation beyond the Hyde Amendment, which was perfectly sufficient before.

5. House liberals who kow-towed to the labor unions on stripping down the Cadillac tax to pay for the plans. (The unions also stand as a roadblock against the passage of Wyden-like legislation.).

Then again, as I said, I’m not sure this Congress–in a city corroded by cynicism and special interests and Fox News–can pass anything at all that has social utility.

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  • stuartzechman

    But does anyone actually think something like that can pass the Congress? Yeah, me neither.

    Actually, that’s disingenuous of you, isn’t it?
    .
    You don’t want “some like that” to pass Congress because it’s not the Third Way, right?
    .
    You really need to make yourself clear on this, Joe Klein. Just five short years ago you were all for privatizing Social Security. Now you’re for regulating insurers into public utilities?
    .
    That’s a liberal solution to market failures. Are you passing yourself off as a liberal, now?
    .
    Do you have any coherent set of ideas or principles at all, Joe Klein?

  • bmccool

    The idea of insurance has become so distorted. It is no longer a way to protect individuals from financial ruin should they become ill or injured. Instead, it has become a giant industry to maximize profits for companies that are publicly traded and answer to a board of directors. In this scheme, mazimizing profits is very easy: increase premiums (more money to the insurers) while denying services (less money paid out to the insured). Also, copays and deductibles for the insured have increased, an additional financial burden the insurance companies have transferred to the insured. The insurance companies have quite simply capitalized on a system that rewards a state of disease and not of health. Capitalism is great for many things, just not the current health care system.

  • octavian21

    “They are the Death Panels, every day and every night, for thousands of American who lose their lives because they can’t afford, or be eligible for, health insurance.”

    Could not have said it better. The republicans will be exposed for having no plan. Their only agenda is to oppose every plan.

  • sy2d

    Is it accurate that the Time overlords have banned discussion of this subject:

    The crime of not “Looking Backward”

    In early December, a report from Seton Hall University cast serious doubt on the government’s claims regarding the alleged simultaneous “suicides” of three Guantanamo detainees in June, 2006. I wrote about that report here. Yesterday, Harper’s Scott Horton published an extraordinary new article casting even further doubt on the official version of events, compiling new, stomach-turning evidence (much of it from Guantanamo guards) strongly suggesting (without proving or concluding) that those detainees were tortured to death, and those acts then covered-up by making their deaths appear to be suicides. Scott’s article should be read in its entirety, though Andrew Sullivan has highlighted some of the critical revelations, including the motives of the whistle-blowing guards and the details of the torture to which these detainees were subjected.

    I want to note two points from all of this:

    (1) The single biggest lie in War on Terror revisionist history is that our torture was confined only to a handful of “high-value” prisoners. New credible reports of torture continuously emerge. That’s because America implemented and maintained a systematic torture regime spread throughout our worldwide, due-process-free detention system. There have been at least 100 deaths of detainees in American custody who died during or as the result of interrogation. Gen. Barry McCaffrey said: “We tortured people unmercifully. We probably murdered dozens of them during the course of that, both the armed forces and the C.I.A.” Gen. Antonio Taguba said after investigating the Abu Ghraib abuses and finding they were part and parcel of official policy sanctioned at the highest levels of the U.S. Government, and not the acts of a few “rogue” agents: “there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes. The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account.”

    Despite all of this, our media persists in sustaining the lie that the torture controversy is about three cases of waterboarding and a few “high-value” detainees who were treated a bit harshly. That’s why Horton’s story received so little attention and was almost completely ignored by right-wing commentators: because it shatters the central myth that torture was used only in the most extreme cases — virtual Ticking Time Bomb scenarios — when there was simply no other choice. Leading American media outlets, as a matter of policy, won’t even use the word “torture.” This, despite the fact that the abuse was so brutal and inhumane that it led to the deaths of helpless captives — including run-of-the-mill detainees, almost certainly ones guilty of absolutely nothing — in numerous cases. These three detainee deaths — like so many other similar cases — illustrate how extreme is the myth that has taken root in order to obscure what was really done.

    (2) Incidents like this dramatically underscore what can only be called the grotesque immorality of the “Look Forward, Not Backwards” consensus which our political class — led by the President — has embraced. During the Bush years, the United States government committed some of the most egregious crimes a government can commit. They plainly violated domestic law, international law, and multiple treaties to which the U.S. has long been a party. Despite that, not only has President Obama insisted that these crimes not be prosecuted, and not only has his Justice Department made clear that — at most — they will pursue a handful of low-level scapegoats, but far worse, the Obama administration has used every weapon it possesses to keep these crimes concealed, prevent any accountability for them, and even venerated them as important “state secrets,” thus actively preserving the architecture of lawlessness and torture that gave rise to these crimes in the first place.

    Every Obama-justifying excuse for Looking Forward, Not Backwards has been exposed as a sham (recall, for instance, the claim that we couldn’t prosecute Bush war crimes because it would ruin bipartisanship and Republicans wouldn’t support health care reform). But even if those excuses had been factually accurate, it wouldn’t have mattered. There are no legitimate excuses for averting one’s eyes from crimes of this magnitude and permitting them to go unexamined and unpunished. The real reason why “Looking Forward, Not Backwards” is so attractive to our political and media elites is precisely because they don’t want to face what they enabled and supported. They want to continue to believe that it just involved the quick and necessary waterboarding of three detainees and a few slaps to a handful of the Worst of the Worst. Only a refusal to “Look Backwards” will enable the lies they have been telling (to the world and to themselves) to be sustained. But as Horton’s story illustrates, there are real victims and genuine American criminals — many of them — and anyone who wants to keep that concealed and protected is, by definition, complicit in those crimes, not only the ones that were committed in the past, but similar ones that almost certainly, as a result of Not Looking Backwards, will be committed in the future.

    http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/index.html?story=/opinion/greenwald/2010/01/19/guantanamo

  • octavian21

    How about this development, from the Chicago Trib:

    “In a 5-4 decision, the court’s conservative bloc said corporations have the same First Amendment rights as individuals and, for that reason, the government may not stop corporations from spending freely to influence the outcome of federal elections.

    The decision is probably the most sweeping and consequential handed down under Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. And the outcome may well have an immediate impact on this year’s mid-term elections to Congress.”

    Where is the tea party outrage? Living proof that the GOP and conservatives don’t care about main street. What a scam. The tea party is for corporations. The only thing they are against is a black president. Why else did they just show up less than a month after Obama was elected. Where were they before?

  • octavian21

    If the GOP cared about main street or small businesses they would be for health care reform.

    I am direct proof of the failed system. I had to sell my business three years after starting it when I became seriously ill and could not afford health care costs.

    My only option was to get a job with insurance, from the state of Illinois. Now I am being paid by Illinois tax dollars instead of building my small business, paying revenue taxes, and helping to build the community with jobs and new business. Because of no health care i am directly receiving government money and insurance.

    Not to mention the pain of laying awake at night without insurance wondering if I was to die soon, wondering if there is anyone to turn to. The republicans would rather us just die obviously.

  • allthingsinaname

    “Republicans get the most blame”
    .
    What a joke! It is a two party system and only the GOP showed up. They fought for what they wanted, the Democrats?
    .
    No the Democrats have a problem and it styarts with Obama.

  • apr2563

    sy2d: that topic is too hard. They have been avoiding it for years. They tip in a toe and then run away. After all the NYT still calls it enhanced interrogation.
    Joe and his clique int the traditional media would rather cluck about the Edwards scandal, opine on issues where they have no expertise, and feel comfortable in knowing that the echo chamber will except their argument. Some will have another non expert opinion but their editors will not challenge any of their opinions. See George Will on climate change.

  • rustyreturns

    “Karen is absolutely right about the health insurance vicious cycle–unless you really go for it and put health insurers under even more public control and regulate their profits, like public utilities, you can’t stop the health premium spiral that would occur if the insurers were forced to cover everyone.

    .
    Actually, no. Karen has been very clear on what she feels needs to be done with health care. To make it a universal, socialist program where the Government pays for it all, and those who make any money and can be taxed pay for it. Perioid.
    .
    1. Should read, the Progressive Liberals have clearly wanted a “Universal Insurance Plan” for all citizens. To mandate this plan whether they want it or not. Mandate it, because in the Progressive’s mind, “they (the people), really do not understand the problem, and there is not anyway we can pay for all the poor people to have insurance unless we mandate it for everyone”. That way we can tax them, and by making everyone have insurance, a government insurance, then we can tax them and pay for all the poor people who do not have it.
    .
    2. Then, once the Progressives have everyone on a “Government Plan”, one even like Medicare, then we (the Government) can dictate what we will pay. How much we’ll pay hospitals, doctors, for drugs, wheelchairs, we’ll dictate how much is paid for everything. Another move of the government into the private industry, and taking control. Now, where have we heard this happening before? Oh yea, SOCIALISM. With socialism, that is what the government does. They replace the private, free enterprise company, and make it a government program.
    .
    3. Let’s see, what else? Well, we can’t pass any tort reform, the trial lawyers pay us big bribes, I mean campaign contributions so we can’t try that.
    .
    4. Oh, and the Unions. Well we can’t tax their insurance plans. Oh yea, we don’t have to anymore because everyone is on the same one size fits all Socialist Government health care insurance plan.
    .
    5. We had a special “deal” with the big Drug companies we did behind closed doors, oh that’s right, that pesky campaign promise. What was it again, tra…tra…I can’t say it. Oh hell, I didn’t mean it anyways, TRANSPARENCY…Now I feel better.
    .
    But it is basically predicated on approximately 12 million people who do not have any insurance. The reason is not really clear. But, the Census Bureau estimates at any given time about 44 million people are without insurance. But, as the Census Bureau claims, 45% get insurance on their own paid out of their pocket or when their new insurance kicks in with their new job. So that’s about 20 Million people. Then if you take that number away from the 44 million, that leaves you with 24 million people without insurance. Now we have also been told there are 12 million or so illegals, most do not have insurance. So that leaves you about 12 million people out of about 300 million total population without insurance. Many of those, don’t want insurance anyways, and would rather spend those dollars on video games or pot.
    http://www.thepoliticaldashboard.com/government-facts-healthcare.html
    .
    Now 80% of the people have insurance. Insurance that they like, but we really don’t care as progressives. We want everyone to have insurance, so screw them all.
    .
    Makes sense to me, now why did that Scott Brown get elected again? Any idea Joe Klein?

  • apr2563

    all what did the Reps want besides being obstructionists? What did they accomplish when they held all 3 government bodies? I know they kept us safe, except for 9/11. What did they do for the average voter?

  • artraveler

    Here in Arkansas, we are about to have Republican candidate for senator best known for caging voters in Florida as a Rove protege. Fortunately, he has 8 (so far) other Republican candidates to beat but he is the one getting the Washington money and the latest SCOTUS ruling probably means that the Luck Sperm Club (Club for Growth) will come in with all their unearned and untaxed dollars to preserve their elitest status.

  • rustyreturns

    Yea, just blame it on the Republicans. That’s what Obama does.
    .
    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    .
    Hate to break it to you, but you had 60 Dem votes, had until this past Tuesday night.
    .
    Now what is your excuse again, Republican what?

  • sy2d

    Wasn’t there a song about socialism crusty.

    Bullworth: Yo, everybody gonna get sick someday / But nobody knows how they gonna pay / Health care, managed care, HMOs / Ain’t gonna work, no sir, not those / ‘Cause the thing that’s the same in every one of these / Is these m—–f—-rs there, the insurance companies!

    Cheryl and Tanya: Insurance! Insurance!

    Bullworth: Yeah, yeah / You can call it single-payer or Canadian way / Only socialized medicine will ever save the day! Come on now, lemme hear that dirty word – SOCIALISM!

  • choska

    Three years is a long time to have a lame duck President, but we’ve survived worse. Maybe Obama will resign and Biden can just sign off on whatever Senate Majority Leader Brown tells him to sign.

  • square1

    5. House liberals who kow-towed to the labor unions on stripping down the Cadillac tax to pay for the plans. (The unions also stand as a roadblock against the passage of Wyden-like legislation.)

    When Joe Klein fights to pay the same tax rate for the capital gains on his Time-Warner stock that union workers pay on their salaries, maybe I will take him seriously.

    What part of collective bargaining agreement does Klein not understand? My guess is that if Klein really wanted to push Wyden instead of self-righteously pontificating, he would suggest something like Wyden with a public option that phases in over time to protect union workers who have traded away higher salaries. Since Wyden already has a base of bipartisan support it would be harder for the GOP to take the same zero-cooperation strategy without looking like complete clowns.

  • http://www.124monkeys.com Sean DeCoursey forgot his password

    Rusty, I have a very serious question that I’d really like to hear your answer to.
    -
    Do you think the military is a socialist institution?
    -
    It’s entirely run and funded by the federal government. The government dictates how much various soldiers and generals and pilots and sailors get paid. There is a historic private alternative (mercenaries) that exists today.
    -
    What, in your mind, is the difference between the government running things like the military and running something like health care? Both provide a specialized service to every citizen and both are in the business of keeping people alive.
    -
    Again, this isn’t snark. I would really like to read your reasoning on why its ok for the government to provide some services and not others, and what the rationale behind that distinction is. Thank you.

  • rustyreturns

    That’s easy, Sean. Providing for the military is in the Constitution. Health care for everyone is not.
    .
    There, how’s that?

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    “2. Then, once the Progressives have everyone on a “Government Plan”, one even like Medicare, then we (the Government) can dictate what we will pay. How much we’ll pay hospitals, doctors, for drugs, wheelchairs, we’ll dictate how much is paid for everything. Another move of the government into the private industry, and taking control. Now, where have we heard this happening before? Oh yea, SOCIALISM. With socialism, that is what the government does. They replace the private, free enterprise company, and make it a government program.”

    I don’t know if you are a vet or not but if you are, have you opted out of the VHA? That single-payer system is even more socialist than Medicare, or the Canadian socialist system. It owns and runs the hospitals, unlike Canada, where doctors are still on a fee for service basis. And what has socialism brought Canada, in comparison to the private system in the US; a longer life cycle, lower infant mortality rate, almost 50% lower costs per capita, the same number of doctors per capita, a much smaller percentage of GDP spent on health, a smaller amount of government budget spent on health.

    Liberals are guilty of wanting to run the heralth system more efficiently, for a much lower cost, and with a higher quality return on the investment. I guess that is what makes us commies?

  • allthingsinaname

    I hate to agree with Rusty, But Health Care was on Obama’s agenda, and couldn’t bother to fight for it. He wasted time and resources with the likes of Snowe. Now he walks away. He is a joke.

  • stuartzechman

    Rustydog:
    .
    I believe you’re referring to this?

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    How is providing health care, i.e. promoting the general welfare of your fellow American citizens, different from the constitutional duty to provide for the common defense?
    .
    Building an interstate highway system isn’t “in the constitution” any more than health care is specifically enumerated, and yet it promotes the hell out of the general welfare, doesn’t it, and is therefore constitutional?
    .
    Don’t talk about mandates, here, that might be a different subject, but, let’s say, we expanded Medicare to cover every American citizen…would that be unconstitutional in a because of some way that it’s fundamentally different than defending American lives?
    .
    Is a (properly run) FEMA unconstitutional, too?
    .
    What kind of interpretation do you have that says that rescuing Floridians from the ravages of hurricanes is promoting the general welfare, but letting people under 65 buy health care from the government (so that they don’t die from illness) isn’t?

  • FlownOver

    As I recall, from eighth-grade civics, “promote the general welfare” comes right after “provide for the common defense.” Pretty much in the same breath.

  • stuartzechman

    The Canadians? The Canadians aren’t even the most dangerous commies in the bunch!

    Don’t forget about all of those communists in Red Switzerland.
    .
    The Swiss are even more commie than, I don’t know, the Germans or the Japanese.
    .
    Anywhere there are price controls and regulations on insurers, or significant government intervention in health care markets, you’re going to see full-on Bolshevism, and Third World declines in productivity as a result.
    .
    Just look at the Germans and the Japanese! They’re poorer than dogs over there, those commies.
    .
    Sure, they pay less than half per person per year than we do for better health care results, but just look at what they’ve given up as societies!
    .
    Where’s the incentive to stay healthy in those places? Look at all of the obese people in Europe and East Asia!
    .
    Communists…

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    Stuart it isn’t bipartisanship we have lost, it’s reason. We can’t look at a problem, rationally, any longer. Ideas, that meet all the criteria, and cost the least amount of money, dangerous ideas, dirty hippie commie ideas, are unacceptable. The Japanese spend even less than the Canadians, and have a longer life span still.

  • allthingsinaname

    I wonder if we couldn’t charge some rental fee on all those countries for our military, that essentialy protect all of those countries.

  • rustyreturns

    Well my dear liberal, Progressive friends, let us look at the Preamble in full context, shall we?
    .

    “Preamble
    We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

    .
    Now unless my eyes are deciving me, it seems that PROVIDE means I shall give it to you. I will provide you with all the food you can eat. Now that could mean I’ll pay for the food, and you just eat it. Or, I will make the food, you pay for it, and then you can eat it.
    .
    PROMOTE, let’s see what is the definition of promote? 1 a : to advance in station, rank, or honor : raise b : to change (a pawn) into a piece in chess by moving to the eighth rank c : to advance (a student) from one grade to the next higher grade
    2 a : to contribute to the growth or prosperity of : further b : to help bring (as an enterprise) into being : launch c : to present (merchandise) for buyer acceptance through advertising, publicity, or discounting
    3 slang : to get possession of by doubtful means or by ingenuity
    .
    I have no problem with the Government to help bring into being a private insurance exchange. But I do have a problem with them paying the entire tab for it.
    .
    I don’t even have a problem with the Government with our tax dollars to help someone that is too poor to even feed themselves.
    .
    I do have a problem when you want the government to give to someone who is more than able to provide for his or her own insurance. Period. A government has the responsibility to “promote” good health. Promote and advise we should all get insurance. Promote we will get old one day and we should have insurance. Even with Medicare, Seniors have paid into a fund, most all their life if not all their working life. They paid for it, not the Government. The Government simply held that money they collected all those years in trust to be used for later life as insurance.
    .
    Now you want to simply GIVE people insurance. No, that is not what the Constitution provides for no matter how hard you try to twist it.
    .
    Work in your individual states. I do believe the State, like in Massachusetts can provide for insurance of all their citizens. If your state doesn’t and you want it, then move to Massachusetts.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    Theoretically,the bases are there for wider national and economic interests, so I assume they think it is still a good investment. However, one would think they could get at least some sort of managed services fee.

  • rustyreturns

    Here is a novel idea. MOVE. Give up your citizenship and move to France, Germany, Switzerland, or Japan.
    .
    You will learn the language quickly I am sure of that. You all seem semi-intelligent. Hell, move to Massashusetts, I’m sure that the new Republican Senator Scott Brown would be happy to have more liberals to vote for him in 2012.
    .
    No one is stopping you. If you don’t like it here, MOVE.
    .
    Oh, I’d give Oprah a call first tho, she thought Denmark was the bomb, before she found out they tax everyone at 70% of their income. And when she asked one of the dolts how they liked it, they said they loved it. Then when she asked them about where all the “things” were, they said “what things? we can’t afford things, plus we don’t need things”. But, I do hear pot is cheap. Bonus points there.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    Rusty must think looking for ways to lower the cost of a service, while raising the quality of the service, is un-American. If you want to approach politics from a rational point of view, get the hell out.

  • umeshgeeta

    Dems defeat looks certain in 2010. To assume that without HCR anyone even consider them worthy of governance is wrong.

    When many HCR backers were incessantly saying that this is getting delayed, wrap it fast, White House ignored it. Rahm is now having reputation that 2 times he failed.

    Question is what should Dem prefer – to go down without HCR or go down with HCR?

    Really there are no words to describe what is happening here – total surrender by Obama and Dems. Obama politics is broken beyond words and the guy does not deserve the second term as well as all these Dem Members.

    Just wait, all that active base will ‘actively’ campaign to defeat these Democrats. Such a betrayal should and will be never accepted by any Democracy.

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    Durn. I reckon they shoulda talked.

  • stuartzechman

    Why don’t the Tea Partiers and the rest of the rightists move, if they’re so fed up with the United States?
    .
    Come on, Rustydog, that’s not the American way, and you know it.

  • http://www.124monkeys.com Sean DeCoursey forgot his password

    Thanks so much for the answer Rusty. I used to hold the same views. I’ve changed because I’ve seen too many good people get destroyed by forces beyond their control. They did everything right, provided for themselves and their families, then through a combination of bad luck and corporate profiteering/incompetence/etc. would lose everything.
    -
    Now I think the government should create an equal playing field and act as a referee, making sure everyone plays by the same rules and obeys them. Right now, the insurance companies are dramatically not doing so. Much like the big banks they need someone more powerful than them to smack them down, hard. The government is the only entity capable of doing this.
    -
    There are other reasons too, but I’m now convinced that the government needs to pull a “you couldn’t play nice, so you lose your toys now” on these companies and institutions. I’d recommend you examine your beliefs and see if you might feel the same way.

  • tjoyce994

    You left out insurance companies collecting the premiums and then rescinding the policies when the policyholder becomes ill. The rescission is based on some obscure material misrepresentation.

  • tjoyce994

    “Rusty, I have a very serious question that I’d really like to hear your answer to.
    -
    Do you think the military is a socialist institution?”
    -

    How about public libraries?

  • tjoyce994

    “Well my dear liberal, Progressive friends, let us look at the Preamble in full context, shall we?”
    .
    Rusty, the constitution means what the supreme court says it means. You can’t look the words up in the dictionary and apply them.
    -
    And no one is asking the government to “give” us insurance. Many of us already pay for our insurance. There are people who are willing to buy insurance, if the companies were willing to sell it. We are asking for intervention to make the product affordable and available. What issue could you possibly have with that?

  • canachris

    Joe missed the #1 culprit in the collapse of your Health Care Reform Legislation: The 2/3 of the American people that the potential of paying a little bit more, maybe, for health care. Or the possibility, of maybe, hypothetically, suffering some sort of alteration in your care somewhere down the road was too high a price to pay to save 30-40, 000 lives a year and alievate the suffering of millions.

    If the public wasstill on board with the plan then the Democrats would be able to, justifiably, shoe horn the legislation through the back door. Even more likey, threatened Republicans like the Maine duo would come on side for fear of electoral reprisal.

    It’s a political failure for Americas elected representatives that they couldn’t capitalize on this once-in-a-lifetime (read George Bush) opportunity but it’s a moral failure of the American people that they put the nail in the coffin. The dichotomy between Americas outpouring of generosity and empathy for Haitians and it’s callous, selfish, narrow parochial behaviour towards the countries least advantaged citizens is hard to comprehend or explain.

    I feel sorry for you all

  • redraven937

    1) This first point of yours doesn’t really make any sense.
    .
    2) If the government says “highest we’re paying for a wheelchair is $200,” how is that interfering with private business? Your wheelchair company can decide to sell wheelchairs for $200, and you could decide to use your profits to advance wheelchair manufacturing technology so that you can compete with rival wheelchair companies who many say they can sell theirs for $180 instead. As a citizen, I could still decide I want a pimped out $500 wheelchair and buy it from some other company, so I win. The people who need wheelchairs win, the government wins (by reducing their costs), the population wins when the government wins via less wasteful tax spending, and wheelchair companies win because they have a guaranteed buyer. The only people who lose are the ones without any good business sense or cannot otherwise cope with a capitalistic, single-buyer market.
    .
    3) How much money will tort reform save the taxpayer? Do you have a figure? Would insurance companies actually have any incentive to lower costs after tort reform? And why are you talking about trial lawyer bribes when the Supreme Court opened the door for corporations to contribute to elections (which they obviously will towards Repug candidates who increase their profits at the expense of the consumers).
    .
    4) So… that’s a good thing, right?
    .
    5) About as transparent as wiretapping and torture, but otherwise I agree. It should never have happened, so it’s a good thing reform fell through.
    .
    As for the rest of your final paragraphs, I’m am struggling to mesh your conviction that people are satisfied with their health care plans with the reality that over half of all bankruptcies are the result of medical bills, and half of those are from people with insurance. Are those people counted in the “happy with their insurance?” How about the victims of rescission? Surely they count as “people who have insurance” rather than uninsured, yes?
    .
    Finally… say it’s 12 million people. Is that okay to you? How many people have to die to easily preventable diseases (etc) before health care reform is an acceptable topic for you? What is your magic number? 20 million? 40 million? 100 million? Or just the 20-40 people in your personal life?

  • stuartzechman

    callous, selfish, narrow parochial behaviour towards the countries least advantaged citizens

    This is crap, absolute dogsh*t. Go f*ck yourself.
    .
    The difference between the highest earners in this country and the rest of us has put is in banana republic hacienda/field territory. Real wages have been stagnant, and yet the pay for executives of large firms is in the tens of millions. Income inequality in this country is at robber-baron levels.
    .
    People were encouraged –advertising campaigns had millions of dollars poured into them– to buy homes at wildly inflated prices with loan instruments that reset at usurious rates. Now their homes are a quarter of the purchase value, and taxes are just catching up with 2007 value assessments.
    .
    Unemployment is at 10%, brother. People’s lives are ruined. Their kids have less opportunity. They’re humiliated and scared.
    .
    Folks who have jobs are trying to hang on to them, even though they know they’re not really in control.
    .
    How f*cking dare you blame ordinary people going through the hardest, bleakest economic times in at least 30 years for wanting to keep what they have?
    .
    How dare you accuse people against whom the deck is so obviously stacked of selfishness?
    .
    You know who really sets the pace of progress back in America, dunce? It’s not just the talk-radio rightists, it’s not just the corporatist centrists, it’s you, bud.
    .
    Yes, you.
    .
    It’s fools like you who pit the middle class against the poor in a war for scarce resources. Ordinary people in this country don’t have to apologize for not wanting the burden of Democrats’ incompetent, corporate welfare reform placed on their backs.
    .
    They’re not “callous”, they’re living real lives with real demands. They’re not “selfish”, they’re normal. They’re not consumed by “narrow parochial” interests, they’re trying to get by with less and less while their world and dreams are collapsing around them.
    .
    Let’s get one thing straight, Einstein, because it’s not that hard to comprehend or explain: it’s not the responsibility of the vast majority of people who are trying their best at life to shoulder the burden of paying for whatever hair-brained scheme Max Baucus can come up with to buy over-priced insurance for over-priced health care for the poor.
    .
    Got that?
    .
    The job of the government is not, I repeat, not to provide for the least among us, it’s to provide real solutions to problems that affect us all.
    .
    Welfare liberals, people who believe that this is all about charity, this is all about “giving”, this is all about getting hard working folks who have something to shell out for other hard working folks who have less, have no f*cking idea what government is really for, what Social Security is really about, what the value of every American is. It’s unconscionable that you’d disparage the American people in this way in such tough going, with every elite institution of their country working against them.
    .
    Welfare liberals, in their benevolence, and eagerness to throw resources at problems that make them feel good about themselves, are the worst thing for American liberalism since Ronald Reagan. You people have it so backwards, it’s unbelievable.
    .
    Corrente does a really good job of explaining it in “The New Benevolent Democrats: ( link to decent explanation of this problem liberal )”

    Before the primary it had been so long since Democrats held power I never noticed how much Democratic philosophy and policy advocacy had changed. But during the primary I started to note what I would call a split in the Party between those who sought economic justice for the middle class, and those who sought social benevolence for the poor.
    .
    I’m always on the side of helping the poor, but in policy terms, I’ve always thought what helps the poor most is to empower the middle class. Policies that target only the poor through subsidies and welfare programs, and sort of ignore the plight of the middle class over the last several decades, don’t leave those on the bottom with anywhere to move up to. Further, often the needs of the poor can only be met through vigorous funding of public programs, not simple charity. And, at this time of economic lopsidedness, often policies need a broader scope than limiting social programs to the least among us.
    .
    When social programs include the majority of working people they are extremely empowering and hold great staying power. Medicare and Social Security are two examples. Both programs are taxpayer supported by the broad populous. Neither is a welfare program. Social Security, particularly, is a program where what you put in is basically what you get back. It puts everybody on the same playing field and no one who pays into those programs thinks they are recipients of the gift of health care or the gift of retirement security.
    .
    Our greatest social achievements came at a time when we had a strong labor movement, but that era is over. So who are the policy makers now? They are largely academics, white elites who seem more intent on policies of benevolence than in risking their upper middle class status in the name of supporting a larger middle class through empowering policies of justice.

    Did you get any of that?
    .
    Liberalism is about helping everybody, and evening out the playing field against elites, not some Christmas card donation so that you can feel good about your status in life.
    .
    So take that sh*t back. Americans aren’t any of those despicable things you described them as, and we don’t need to prove to anyone how generous we are. If you don’t know us, then we don’t know you.
    .
    You might want to look into your own heart, and perhaps reveal your own narrow, parochial reasons why you’re so dedicated to “the countries least advantaged citizens”, instead of to America and Americans…all of us.
    .
    Health care reform isn’t being failed by the vast majority of ordinary people, we’re being failed by health care reform. Real liberals can recognize this. Talk to one of us, someday, before you judge your fellow citizens so poorly.

  • maurice2u

    SZ you had some really good points there, and left something to chew on, but is it really productive to utilize the “real” monicker?
    .
    As I spoke to before, there’s a lot more range in the population of 350 million than just black/white, left/right, liberal/conservative or even a selection of three paths on any subject.
    .
    If we start claiming “real liberals”, how far off is that from Sarah Palin claiming “real Americans”?
    .
    I suspect Canachris’ description is accurrate about a portion of the population that is uncomfortably larger than we’d care to admit, and their not all (calling themselves) Republican or “on the right”. While I doubt it is the majority, as you accurrately pointed out, totally dismissing Cana’s opinion to the point of personal attack isn’t the level of discourse we’re going for, is it?

  • stuartzechman

    maurice2u:
    .
    I really do my best to be a polite and constructive as possible.
    .
    Sometimes, especially when people disparage my country and its people, I’m not as concerned with politeness.
    .
    As far as the “not a real liberal” epithet goes, that’s not true, I suppose. There are plenty of real liberals who view the state as a vehicle for their own benevolent feelings, instead of it representing the interests of all of us against powerful elites.
    .
    I guess I just don’t like that they’re supposedly on my side, because they don’t help a goddamn bit by insulting all the people who are having such a hard time.
    .
    Talk about the banksters, if you want to talk selfish, and narrowly interested. Talk about people who could afford to walk away from a reformed, working system with gold in their pants, if they’d just let us fix it for the future so it functions in everybody’s interests. Talk about the neo-aristocracy that’s come to characterize elite, ruling America, talk about those people’s sick justifications for a system weighted almost completely in the favor of inherited, incumbent privilege.
    .
    There are lots of things wrong with lots of people in this country, but piling on middle class people for not being generous enough with what little they can keep in hard times is offensive in the extreme, as it should be to any liberal not primarily concerned with reinforcing their own feelings of superiority.
    ,
    There’s something wrong with that kind of liberal’s thinking, and whether they’re a “real liberal” or not, they set the movement back with every superior utterance of theirs faster than we can rebuild it. We need the trust of people to succeed in this country, and we’re never going to gain it by demonstrating these airs, this aptitude for benevolence.
    .
    I’ll admit, it’s frustrating. It’s frustrating because there’s no need for this kind of stupid, unproductive offense. It’s gotten liberals nowhere, and it continues to kill us politically. The thing we need to be concerned with above all else is that we are on the side of people, and that they know this. The right has convinced so many that our sympathies do not lie with the majority, that our concerns are for ourselves and the “most deserving”. We must end this lie.
    .
    We must be better than “benevolent Democrats,” and we will be, once we get past the superior, objective, anthropology-lite sentiments of the welfare liberals, and come together as Americans. When liberals realize that we are these Americans that we despise, and that they are we, then we will have won, maurice2u.

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  • timothydillian

    Sturartzechman:
    You are absolutely right. Good & judicious & wise & even handed government is no longer expected, demanded, or even fought for. It is all about scoring points, getting your part of the deal, securing mine & f*ck the rest of you. Neither party seems to even pretend that they are there for the interests of the citizenry as a whole. Hence, once the process starts, they can’t stop in their “deal making” frenzy so what pops out the other end is so obviously ludicrus, how can it not fall apart in the light of day, What stands before us is an issue of good or bad government, possible & impossible priorities, what can work & what will not. This Deal is NOT Reform. But looking at the wreckage of this Deal does not mean that Reform is not still needed. The process that we have (not) working will surely fail us again if some sort of common sense, persistence, wisdom & focus does not emerge in our politics. For, if not this time, at some point, the people will say enough is enough. History is not kind to governments who practice sustained political stupidity.

  • bobell

    A little late, perhaps, but still worth posting, I think:
    .
    The Constitution expressly confers on Congress the power to raise an army and navy. See Article I, Section 8. It also makes the president the commander in chief of the army and navy. Article II, Section 2. There’s nothing in the Constitution, if you exclude the preamble, that mentions or even implies a government role in health care, and the preamble is not considered to confer any actual power on anybody. Ordinarily Congress invokes the Commerce Clause when it decides to meddle in the marketplace. I never checked, but I’m reasonably confident that they were basing HCR largely if not entirely on the Commerce Clause. And there really is a decent argument that a mandate that everyone buy and pay for insurance is unconstitutional (even though single payer almost certainly is not unconstitutional, because taxes would pay for it. Or is Medicare unconstitutional?)
    .
    That aside, I truly despair for the country. Between Brown’s victory and yesterday’s SCOTUS decision in Citizens United, I think I can now detect the first signs that we’re circling the drain.
    .
    Oh, and by the way, post-election polls (not exit polls; there weren’t any) in Mass indicate that far more people voted for Brown because they were fed up that the pending health care bills didn’t go far enough than voted for him because they thought the bills went too far. Without the liberals deserting Coakley, it appears, she would have won.

  • newfreedomblog

    I happen to agree with stuart with most all of what he says. With the exception that while I can appreciate his crusade on changing the ideology of the Democrat Party, it is still mainly focused on welfare programs as stuart so wisely labels it a “Christmas card” charitable crusade.
    .
    Meaning in my mind, “yes, use my share of the tax dollars to support the poor and indigent. Provide them with un-ending welfare checks, a meager subsistence rather than teaching them how they can educate themselves to get a better paying job. How through this education they may perhaps have the new idea for “green energy”. How with an education they can provide for their own family, and be a very productive member of our society.
    .
    The deficit is now over 12 trillion dollars. It is going to go to 14.5 trillion dollars in a few short months. Congress will need to pass yet another extension of the amount we can borrow to pay for all the big government programs.
    .
    We cannot if we care about this country allow for this to continue. We must rein in spending. Whether that is biting hard and paying more taxes to bring it down, or simply cutting a lot of programs and just providing for the bare basics. Or, a fair combination of both. But, no matter how you slice it, it has to be done or we all fail together. The mega-rich, they will simply take their dollars turn them into gold and leave for another country before the final collaspe. The rest of us, we are not that lucky.
    .
    However, I am encouraged by folks like Mr Zechman who are taking a look at the Democrat Party, and saying to themselves, “we can’t keep on doing it this way”.

  • slapsgiving

    Indeed, Public Libraries, Roads made with Tax Dollars, Police and Prisons and even Public Schools are all Socialist programs.

  • tjoyce994

    “The difference between the highest earners in this country and the rest of us has put is in banana republic hacienda/field territory. Real wages have been stagnant, and yet the pay for executives of large firms is in the tens of millions. Income inequality in this country is at robber-baron levels.”
    -
    Good post. BTW, I enjoy reading your posts, and look forward to seeing your take on current events. They often differ from mine, but I can follow the logic, and see things from a different angle.

  • rustyreturns

    Ah stuart, hate to break it to you but the Tea Party folks are not the ones who are attempting to make all the changes.
    .
    I firmly believe it something is not broken, you don’t need to further screw it up with some pie in the skiy leftist ideals. Especially ones that we know are not working or barely working for the sake of change for change sake.
    .
    Is there reform needed, absolutely, but not to the degree that the Democrats in Congress want to change it. The leftist want radical change. Rather than taking a slow and methodical approach to the problem. Taken on step at a time, which seems like they are now going to do will allow for time to be the judge as to how well the reforms are working.
    .
    Put in pre-existing legislation. Let’s see how much the costs continue to rise, which I predict they will. Then recision, meaning not to allow someone to be cancelled out of their insurance because they met some insurance company level that they will not pay any longer. (will increase the cost).
    .
    Then look at costs overall and see what can be done to cut out waste, fraud and abuse. Obama claims there are billions of dollars in fraud coupled with unnessary test and procedures being ordered. Perhaps that can also be fixed with some sound tort reform while you are in the process. In my mind a good doctor is not going to prescribe un-needed tests or procedures if his only fear is that of being sued.
    .
    Then approach a one size fits all program. If ALL the other interventions have not worked. But throwing out a program that 80% of the people are completely or almost completely satisfied with is not only insane, it is just plain stupid.
    .
    The Census Bureau for the welfare Liberals benefit, shows that there are only about 12 million people who do not have or cannot get insurance. This can be solved when our immigration policies are relooked at. Most I would guess can probably qualify for government programs already in existence. The remainder, simply are choosing not to buy it. If that is the case, then let them not buy it, but not also afford them the luxury of using the ER’s as a doctor’s office. Make them pay for it, period. Then once they learn the lesson, a very hard lesson they may choose to buy insurance rather than forego insurance so they can buy they video games and pot.

  • stuartzechman

    Thanks to all of you for reading and considering my commentary.

  • Jim, Foolish Literalist

    4. Moderate Congressmen like Bart Stupak, who used health care reform as an excuse for expanding anti-abortion legislation beyond the Hyde Amendment, which was perfectly sufficient before.

    If Family-man Bart Stupak is willing to derail something his party has been fighting for for more than seventy-five years over the language on abortion, in spite of the position of his party (and the majority of Americans) on the issue, isn’t he kind of the opposite of “moderate”? Unless your political spectrum runs runs the gamut, as Atrios said years ago, from The New Republic to FreeRepublic.

  • freeinpa

    “But behind Obama’s campaign rhetoric about taking on special interests lies a more complicated truth. A Globe review of Obama’s campaign finance records shows that he collected hundreds of thousands of dollars from lobbyists and PACs as a state legislator in Illinois, a US senator, and a presidential aspirant.”
    (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/08/09/pacs_and_lobbyists_aided_obamas_rise/)

    Yes its always those dam conservatives. It can’t be the hypocritical liberals. The left has made an art form of bashing corporations as evil but never stop taking money or accepting use of private jets.

    Throw the race card, its easier than telling the truth.

    And the Tea party folks are turning out to be correct about Obama’s agenda and what he truly stands for which was never fully vetted during the campaign.

  • freeinpa

    defense is defined by the constitution as one of the duties of the federal government. Public libraries not so much.

  • 53_3

    Hi all,
    .
    I’ve stayed out since the MA debacle and the less touted decision by the supreme court.
    .
    We are all in serious trouble. And I mean conservatives too!
    .
    Us Democrats deserve what we got in MA, because we’ve shown no ability to govern without shattering into a large number of self-serving fragments. The tail is wagging the hell out of the dog right now. Joe Klein’s post caricatures a symptom of the disease, and the disease has just be exacerbated by the Supreme Court decision on campaign contributions.
    .
    Hello oligarchy!
    .
    Yup! You heard right. In short order, we will cease being a representative democracy and become an oligarchic democracy, in which our choices will be limited by the boards of the largest corporations. Never mind the unions, as they dwell within these same corporations, if at all. They will never muster the political power to balance corporations.
    .
    So, besides us Democrats, who’ve now succeeded in stabbing, beating and shooting ourselves to death, the Tea Party wannabes maybe should consider that soon, their liberties will be on the line – commercially speaking.
    .
    Their (and our!) liberties will be circumscribed by bought-and-sold politicians who are accountable not to us, but to those who pour money into their warchests.
    .
    And the Tea Party, along with other conservatives, and Democrats as well, might just find that “bringing our guns” to “take our country back” might not be as effective a threat as they once thought.
    .
    Because America has already been sold…

  • stuartzechman

    Democrat Bart Stupak is a moderate liberal?
    .
    Who knew?

  • stuartzechman

    Yes, reform is still vitally necessary, just not the reform we’ve had handed down to us.
    .
    The kind of reform we need is that which substantially increases the value of the system for everyone, which means reducing the price of health care down from bubble levels.
    .
    If health care market manipulation ceases, everybody benefits…except the current profiteers.

  • apr2563

    Recommend Balls Beer to Dems.

  • stuartzechman

    …”promote the general welfare…”
    .
    It’s un-enumerated specifically not to limit the government’s constitutional ability to create and administer public libraries and anything else that’s systemically good for Americans…like public schools.

  • martingifford

    Yep. Obama had the talent to inspire many people, but he only used it to get elected, not to implement ethical policy. Now he has lost all moral authority to make a positive difference.

  • martingifford

    Well, so long as Obama gets bi-partisan support to quit and Biden gets bi-partisan support to lift the pen up to sign off on what Brown wants.

  • octavian21

    I comprehend your point and believe it to be a valid one. I am not against corporations or business. However in typical FOX news punditry tactics you totally ignored my point in order to present yours.

    My point is that when Obama helps bail out the corporations he is villified but when the conservative judges rule in favor for corporations or credit card companies there is no outrage. So which one is it? Is Obama owned by corporate interests and wall street or is he against it? Can’t have it both ways.

    The tea baggers and GOP pretend they are for regular folk main street but there is no outrage when conservatives help out the corporations. Here is a news flash, corporations are not “main street”.

    Where were the tea baggers when Bush pushed TARP through? They just show up the second a minority president is elected and just happen to ALL be white.

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