Swampland Responds: What Went Wrong For Obama

At the end of the last post, I asked Swampland’s informed and argumentative throng to weigh in with its take on what went wrong for Obama in his first year. The answers are varied, and worth reading. What follows is not a complete reprinting, but includes the best responses so far. (Keep ‘em coming in the comment thread.)

Stuart Zechman:

1. Obama over-promised and under-delivered
Whatever else can be weaseled out of, Obama campaigned and was elected on the promise to fundamentally change Washington. In the year since he was elected, there are no indications whatsoever that this premise of his campaign –of his political existence– will translate into anything meaningful in terms of reforming our political institutions. This means that either A) he was lying, or B) he’s a naive fool. It also means that the public who believed in, organized for and voted for him are also naive fools, and are starting to be humiliated for that trust.


2. Obama’s political philosophy doesn’t work in practice, either politically or in terms of good policy
Since now (as of March 9, 2009) Obama has revealed himself as a centrist (“I am a New Democrat,” he told a gathering of 65 members of that Congressional caucus), we know that his is the classic Clintonian centrist approach to politics and policy. Unfortunately, these policies are bad for the country, if you think that “the country” primarily involves the interests of tens of millions of ordinary Americans, and not merely the leaders of industry and finance. They’re also suicidal for Democrats, if, by “Democrat” one means the political party whose sole premise for existence is the need for ordinary people’s representation in government to counter the influence of elites.
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As an example, his policies with respect to the financial industry’s collapse were predicated on a continuation of the government’s partnership role, and not the adversarial role envisioned by the architects of the New Deal. As a result, Obama’s Administration has acted largely to preserve these institutions (and their elite leadership) as they are, in their collapse-worthy state, and has saddled the government with enormous debt in doing so. As was the case in the Great Depression, the Administration was literally threatened by the finance industry, but this time they submitted.
.
As the continuing lending crisis demonstrates, these expenditures with no reforms attached are wastes of wealth, serving no stimulative effect, and producing nothing in the way of material benefit for citizens –a fact of which they’re well aware. Economist Joseph Stiglitz calls this “ersatz capitalism, the privatizing of gains and the socializing of losses.” Voters call it “business as usual in the corrupt Beltway.”

Elvis Elvisberg:

1: The GOP “had an interesting theory that if you refuse to cooperate with efforts to make the country better, things won’t get better and the out-of-power party will benefit. The theory appears to be true.” http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2010/01/our-broken-institutions.php See, e.g., the Gang of Six, which served to delay for months, get zero GOP support, and ruin the possibility of health care reform. Also note that, as with stimulus spending during a recession, there is no disagreement among well-informed people that something along these lines needs to be done; however, the GOP went with maximal exaggeration and obstruction in both cases.
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2: The GOP and the press think it’s always 1980– the the cavalry’s coming, and they’re going to be swept back into power. This, despite the fact that if you consult polling issue by issue– leaving party affiliation and loaded questions out of it– the Dems are much, much more preferred than the GOP. But the press thinks that every moment is “fraught with peril for Democrats.”
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3: So do Democrats. They’re always scared that it’s 1994, too much so to do anything. See this staffer email: http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/01/relieved.php?ref=fpblg

Ivy_B:

Most voters do not pay constant attention to politics. They tend to hear odds and ends of things and some of it filters in as fact. Unfortunately, after Obama was elected, the press decided they had to suddenly criticize and show that they weren’t in the tank for Obama. Alas during the Bush years, there was no constant hand-wringing about the deficit. There were no Democrats on places like NPR giving a different point of view – now all I hear are Republicans so NPR can show how objective it is.

Randomkirk:

It seems to me that one conclusion is simply: Now that we have gotten to actually KNOW Obama, he ain’t all that special. So many people, voters, media, etc., got so caught up in the hype that Obama’s (very talented) campaign team put out, there just wasn’t enough critical analysis of who he was. I read “Audacity of Hope”…some good ideas (even to this right-winger), but I couldn’t get over thinking to myself, “How is a first-term Senator, with limited experience at any level of government ever going to sell this to Congress?”

Sy2d:

The President’s steadfast refusal to acknowledge that we have a two-party system, his insistence on making destructive concessions to the same party voters he had sent packing twice in a row in the name of “bipartisanship,” and his refusal ever to utter the words “I am a Democrat” and to articulate what that means, are not among his virtues. We have competing ideas in a democracy — and hence competing parties — for a reason. To paper them over and pretend they do not exist, particularly when the ideology of one of the parties has proven so devastating to the lives of everyday Americans, is not a virtue. It is an abdication of responsibility.
*
What happens if you refuse to lay the blame for the destruction of our economy on anyone — particularly the party, leaders, and ideology that were in power for the last 8 years and were responsible for it? What happens if you fail to “brand” what has happened as the Bush Depression or the Republican Depression or the natural result of the ideology of unregulated greed, the way FDR branded the Great Depression as Hoover’s Depression and created a Democratic majority for 50 years and a new vision of what effective government can do? What happens when you fail to offer and continually reinforce a narrative about what has happened, who caused it, and how you’re going to fix it that Americans understand, that makes them angry, that makes them hopeful, and that makes them committed to you and your policies during the tough times that will inevitably lie ahead?
*
The answer was obvious a year ago, and it is even more obvious today: Voters will come to blame you for not having solved a problem you didn’t create, and you will allow the other side to create an alternative narrative for what’s happened (government spending, deficits, big government, socialism) that will stick. And it will particularly stick if you make no efforts to prevent it from starting or sticking.

Kevpvp:

1. The financial crisis sapped a lot of political willpower and resources. It’s hard to get a whole lot done when faced with an economy in as dire straits as has been the case for the last year and a half.

2. Health Care is difficult to pass, not simply because of all the contending interests involved (although that is definitely a big part of it), but because the average voter can’t understand it. This is incredibly complex stuff. As a group of engaged people (you’re reading the comments here at Swampland, so I assume you’re probably more politically savy than the typical person on the street), I would challenge you to describe to me what your own coverage is. My guess is no more than a handful could say what your copay, deductable, coinsurance, lifetime maximum is.

Pintortwo:

Obama was elected largely as a rejection of neoconservative colonialism, yet, in the face of grave econimic turmoil, he continues to grow the military budget (CBO estimates 6% annually- *bellow), build military bases throughout the Middle East, exaggerate the national security threat posed by foreign groups (Bush had Saddam/Baathists, Obama has the Taliban), employs the same military advisers as his predecessor and seems dedicated to the “Long War”

martingifford:

Mass. is a very strong Dem state. Therefore, there are many leftwingers there (they would be called moderates in most other democracies – America votes very rightwing). So this was a protest vote from the left. Country-wide, Obama has a 54% approval rating, so it must be because Mass. has more leftwingers.

While the media acts oblivious, the left is well aware that Obama has continued many criminal Bush policies (e.g. Obama is guilty of conspiracy to hide Bush’s crimes against humanity), Obama has been in the pocket of the Health Insurance and Banking industries, and Obama has grovelled to the likes of Lieberman and the Republicans. Do you think the leftwingers were pleased with all that? No intelligent, ethical, informed person would be pleased with it. And the only power they have is to not vote for them.

forgottenlord:

#1: A variation of Scherer’s #6. It isn’t the #1 problem as it wasn’t a mistake Obama made nor are the points Scherer listed alone a problem. The reality is that media has split from Tabloid and Real to 5 categories: Tabloid, Partisan, Self-absorbed (Scherer’s point), Real and Internet. Yes, you could argue that the real media like Washington Post and New York Times have been Partisan in the past, but I doubt many of us would disagree that the headliners on MSNBC or Fox – AKA the faces of news today – are far more partisan. In effect, we have powerful Partisan media, powerful Self-absorbed media that only looks different from Tabloid media insofar as it’s dealing with Washington instead of Hollywood, a powerful Internet media which is far more a voice box on everything that’s broadcasted that doesn’t so much deliver what’s happening as it does spread what’s happening, and a weakening real news with the papers going out of print and the news channels almost hiding the actual newsmen. None of that is the fauly of Obama, but this gigantic shift hasn’t been responded to properly by Obama. Between it all, it has the power to explode anything and fast. Obama did a better job than any candidate in history to take advantage of this during the campaign, but his attempts to revolutionize it have almost stopped since he got into office. Imagine if Gibbs had a twitter feed? Instant response every time a Republican states a lie on National TV. Not next day response, instant. You could have people told a claim is false before they’ve even heard the claim – and we all know that the story gets on page 1 while the rebuttle ends up on page 10. And I came up with that in 2 minutes.
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#2: Selling the stimulus bill as a cure all. Every analyst with reasonable skill said that the stimulus bill couldn’t solve the economic crisis. Everyone from the White House to Wall Street knew that a second stimulus would have to come. The response he should’ve given was “this Stimulus Bill is to help stabilize the economy by helping main street, but it is not the last one we will pass to ensure that people can get back on their feet. We will need to evaluate the situation further and have a clearer grasp of how people are hurting and what can be done to help them and pass further bills as it becomes clearer”. Yes, it might’ve hurt him with deficit hawks in the short run, but telling Main Street it wasn’t going to be left in the rain when you had to know that unemployment would continue to tick up probably would’ve helped.
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#3: Leaving Republicans out of the stimulus negotiations. I know this is a debatable one and it wasn’t really Obama’s fault but rather Reid and Pelosi, but still, he ran with bipartisanship as a key element and this set the tone in Washington that bipartisanship was out the door. It has the bonus effect that if Republicans actually slowed down the bill, they could be tossed out with “you go ahead and wait, we want to help real Americans”. On the other hand, you throw in a few compromise items (not many, they still had a mandate) and you’re off to the races. It might not have prevented the teabagger takeover of the Republicans, but it might’ve helped. Heck, if they did it right, they could’ve used it to further split the GOP
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#4: Not keeping a tab on Kennedy’s seat. Yes, Coakley should’ve told them earlier, and it’s Mass, but you can still have some lackey who’s job it is to check the numbers every week just in case something happens.
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#5: Control one, just one, press cycle. Sure, they couldn’t do anything about Joe Wilson, but what about Sargeant Crowley. It seemed for the latter half of the year, if they had some news go their way, someone, somewhere, figured out how to usurp it.

acameronw:

6. Conservatives distort and get away with it. Ex 1: The continued use of the term “government takeover” regarding healthcare. What, exactly, is being taken over. Ex 2: “Death Panels” No further comment required. Ex. 2 “Malpractice Reform” Damages from lawsuits are less that 1% of healthcare costs, and punitive damages are awarded by juries, not judges. “Secret deals” Did the Congressional Record and C-Span disappear and I missed it?

7. The Media can’t be bothered to do policy in detail. When was the last time you saw an extensive, coherent discussion of policy (as opposed to politics) on television? Track down the number of minutes devoted to “Game Change” by Hedda Hopper and Louella Parsons – oops – Haloerin and Heileman and you’ll get a sense of the problem.

8. The decline of the American educational system: People do indeed get the government they deserve.

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  • stuartzechman

    Thanks for following through, Michael Scherer, and actually reading through all of that commentary, and doing a nice edit job.
    .
    Above and beyond, dude, above and beyond.
    .
    Thanks.

  • http://randomkirk.wordpress.com randomkirk

    Michael,

    Ditto stuartzechman’s post. A fun exercise. Very interesting reading, indeed.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    I think the terrible campaign run by the Democrat is the greatest cause of the defeat, maybe as high as 75%. I see no overriding support for the great generalizations, that are now being made about health care, generalizations that already have the soft Democrats running down the hill, with their tail between their legs. Not that there isn’t some genuine concern in the air, but if anything, it is concern over the economy, and the half-measures taken to address it. That has given rise to a lack of enthusiasm in the base, along with all the other half measures, this leaderless regime is committed to. The people who put Obama in place were sold an illusion and now they realize the people they worked for simply don’t have the heart to stand behind their rhetoric.

  • http://randomkirk.wordpress.com randomkirk

    And thanks to all of the posters, too.

  • Cliff

    Am I the only one who thinks that maybe Coakley’s loss cannot and should not be turned into a referendum on Obama’s performance?
    .
    I have my problems with the guy, but I don’t see how we can say, a year into his presidency, that the loss of a single Senate seat proves that he’s went wrong. It’s independent of his performance.
    .
    It does us a disservice to push this narrative.

  • destor23

    You really need a counterargument here. Obama hasn’t gone wrong yet. He’s made some mistakes but as many have pointed out… things didn’t look so great for Clinton one year in and he went on to be a two termer and a global megastar. Don’t let the immediacy of blogging tempt you to publish obits for people who are still breathing.

    And I’m no Obama defender. I’ll be the first to say that he’s suffering for ignoring his base on the left. But I think we might look very silly for having this “what went wrong” discussion a few years from now.

  • stuartzechman

    Coakley’s loss isn’t the point, although that’s the horse-race bit the morons at Drugdico will obsess over.
    .
    The point really is where we are with health care, now that the 41st Republican has been elected to an overwhelmingly Democratic Congress while a Democrat occupies the White House in his first year after a healthy majority election, and what the reasons are that this loss is even an issue.
    .
    It’s not the loss of one seat, it’s the situation that the loss brings into sharp focus.

  • abdullah69

    The people who believe Obama “went wrong” are the same people who believe America is a democracy rather than a state run by a small cabal on K Street. Who gained from the invasion of Iraq? The American people? No, the defence industry. Who gained from the election of Scott Brown? The good people of Massachusetts? No, the healthcare industry.

    The arguments over whether someone is centrist, leftist or what ever are irrelevant. He who pays the piper calls the tune. There are powerful interests in control in America and whereas after the Bush years of unashamedly promoting corporate indulgence, Obama was seen as an opportunity to claw back peoples’ right to self – determination, sadly this has not proved the case.

  • kryptik1

    I agree that the point here is not that Coakley lost. But I’ll disagree with stuart here that the real issue is the reaction of the loss, and how nearly everyone has come to the consensus that because Dems only have 59 seats in the Senate caucus, that Dems are totally screwed.

    And I’m not the only one who believes that said consensus underscores how truly and utterly broken our current political discourse is. That’s the real issue here: the birth of the 59-seat minority by consensus.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Ditto randomkirk’s post. Thanks for reading, considering, and for this post.
    -
    The end result is, there is zero political benefit to taking policy seriously. The GOP has not in at least a decade (dead seriously, what has the GOP accomplished since 1990?). The Dems tried to, albeit in a wussy, half-measures-based way, in the past couple years, and are not benefiting from it.
    -
    That is very, very bad for America.

  • xxception

    The Bush years were far from ideal, but promoting the “welfare indulgence” (to turn your phrase) will do NOTHING to prod the economy along.

  • cfukara

    Reports of Obama’s demise are greatly exagerated.

  • cfukara

    *Read :”exaggerated”

  • Cliff

    No, the point is that Coakley lost, but not because Obama & Co. dropped the ball – but because Coakley was a horrible candidate.
    .
    On an unrelated note, the Dems were already having to kiss Nelson’s ass (among others) to get anything done. They already let Baucus chase the Magical Bipartisan Unicorn for three months.
    .
    Now they’re just going to have to kiss ass a little harder in order to get nothing done. BFD.
    .
    It’s going to get worse before it gets better.

  • Cliff

    Also, has anyone wondered how just how this exploded in our faces so suddenly?
    .
    Remember how last month everyone was focused on health care reform and the Undiebomber?
    .
    But, all of a sudden, these politicians and these journalists who track this stuff for a living start shouting, “Holy crap, Kennedy’s seat is gonna go to a Republican!”
    .
    Did they really get caught with their pants down?

  • jcapan

    Who in the hell is this Michael Scherer fellow? Engaging with commenters beyond the usual typo-fixed axis. Breathtaking.

  • kevpvp

    Thanks for the repostings. A good summary of Swampland analysis. I agree with most that it’s folly to rate a presidency after just one year, especially when it has been a year of crisis with the economy (and two wars, terrorism, etc). Lil’ Bush’s first year had little direction in his presidential narrative pre-9/11, after which (I reluctantly have to admit) he unified the country (pre-Iraq invasion). Where Obama is today will be a distant memory in two short years.

  • jcapan

    Sy2d,

    I missed your original comment. Excellent bit about sustained & impassioned narrative making. This is Digby’s ax. As more dems revisit the wilderness in the coming years, perhaps they’ll come to terms with some of your pts. Other than blue-dog conservatives with Ds next to their names, it’s my contention that elected dems know all of this. However, b/c of the toxicity of $ in our politics, they refuse to espouse populist or even coherent narratives that appeal to voters.

    They have a choice: appealing to the moneyed interests that bankroll their campaigns or the voters they ostensibly represent. Until the consequences of ignoring their consitutuents are parallel with the results of rolling their patrons…

    IMO, any punishments we the voters might exact are spotty/temporary at best until publicly financed campaigns and term limits are in place. Waging the war on the central front vs. rearguard actions.

  • dollared

    To all: Great commentary, and MS thanks very much for making this happen.

    I am genuinely afraid that our president is determined to be the next Bill Clinton, without the streetfighting skills. Your commentaries, Stuart and Elvis in particular, hit that nail on the head.

    I’m with Elvis. If policy doesn’t matter at all, then politics is just another cable channel. God help us all. The Chinese won’t, the Fortune 500 won’t, and the Republicans won’t.

  • dollared

    and one more thing – about how the Demos have handled messagin in the wake of the Brown victory.

    Look, they knew for a week that Brown could win. Couldn’t somebody in the White House have drawn up, I dunno, maybe a PLAN? Maybe some TALKING POINTS? And then, I don’t know, SHARED THEM WITH THE CAUCUS and call me crazy, EVEN A FEW SURROGATES? How much does Lanny Davis cost?

    I watch this disaster and seriously wonder. Seriously. What happens if there was some sort of Taiwan/China provocation? A popular uprising in Saudi Arabia? These guys appear to be prepared for – nothing.

    I started out wanting to write a post about being frustrated that all of the Democratic elite does not seem to remember that they are fighting for 150 million people who have stagnated for 30 years and need their children to have a shot at college if our country is to be strong again. Now I really think – people this incompetent really should be glad they left DOD in the hands of a Republican. Because these guys suck so bad it’s a national security issue.

  • apr2563

    Why I despise the traditional media, villagers, bobbleheads:

    WHAT AN AMERICAN ‘LOOKS LIKE’?…. Five wealthy white people sat around a table on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” earlier, and talked a bit about ethnic politics and the Senate race in Massachusetts. It was a rather discouraging display.

    Donny Deutsch got the ball rolling, suggesting that voters may be “going back to basics” after electing an African-American president and seeing “the female candidates and whatnot.” Scott Brown, Deutsch added, “looks like the traditional view of a candidate,” which may bring a “visceral comfort” to voters.

    Mike Barnicle found value in the observation, saying that “there’s something to it.”

    The Wall Street Journal’s Peggy Noonan added that Brown is “a regular guy” who “looks like an American.”

  • martingifford

    Thanks for this, Michael Scherer. I reckon you have a great attitude.

    It is so refreshing for a pundit to ask what people think rather than telling them what they think! You might have started a new game in town!

  • martingifford

    cliff wrote: “No, the point is that Coakley lost, but not because Obama & Co. dropped the ball – but because Coakley was a horrible candidate.”
    -
    It can’t be as simple as that. This is a deeply Democrat state, and the Republicans were toxic over the last 8 years and are still just as toxic. If Obama had have been leading properly and doing the right thing and fighting the Republicans, the Democrats would have won such a state by miles, even with a bad candidate.

  • martingifford

    Totally agree. These are politicians thinking in the short-term. They are not managers or long-term strategists. They are qualified to sometimes win nominations and elections. They are not qualified to run countries.

  • martingifford

    One word: appalling.

  • cfukara

    Maybe it is not a good idea.
    Are you really dying to know what Limbaugh thinks?

  • kbanginmotown

    Geez, people. I take off early to check out the Auto Show yesterday and all the fun breaks out….
    .
    Anyway, it’s Thursday. How ’bout we refrain from interacting with (quotes that make the poster sound like) dining room furniture?

  • dhampton100

    The American people are angry about one thing and one thing ONLY! We voted for Mr. Obama because we, collectively wanted him act like a Democrat who was willing to kick some butt! We did not elect him to “get along” with the Republicans. There are two different political parties in this country and each stand for very different principles. I have a few good friends who are staunch members of the Republican party. We have dinner together and argue frequently. We share in one another’s pain and joy in life, we‘re friends. Politically speaking, I have no desire that a Republican friend agree with me, we simply see things differently. Bipartisanship may sound good but it is an unrealistic expectation. He needs to operate the exact same way Bush did: Jam his agenda down their throats! That is the only way we can get to where we, as a country, need to be. Uniting the country is a pleasant desire but that is simply not the American way. In this country the one who “LEADS” and forces his agenda on the opposing party is the winner. Mr. President it is past time for you to kick some butt! Republicans, Wall Street, Insurance Industry–Kick some BUTT!

  • billiecat

    SZ, has there ever been a politician who didn’t over promise and underdeliver? I’m not saying you’re entirely wrong, I just think you are a little too harsh in your assessment. Similarly, I think MS’s original No. 1 (too much on his plate) is a factor, but as Jon Stewert says, then you get an effin’ bigger plate.
    .
    It’s a lot of things that have slowed down Obama, but it’s a little early to call him a failure. GOP obstructionism clearly is working to undermine Obama, and yes, it’s not all ponies and kittens yet, but geez, the intensity of the carping all reminds me of my kids who can’t even wait the 3:00 minutes it takes to microwave their popcorn. Grow up already – back in the old days we had to wait ten whole minutes for our Jiffy Pop.

  • freeinpa

    In large part, with rare exceptions, the “what when wrong with Obama” is nothing more than lame excuses of blame Bush, blame the Republicans.

    What went wrong is the American public was cheer leading during the campaign along with the MSM media. Obama was not scrutinized as to how he expected to deliver on promises he kept making. He was also not asked to reconcile his previous positions and statements that ran counter to him being a new type of politician and the real beliefs he carried. Nor was any thought given as to why every time a tough issue came to vote, he voted present.

    What we elected in one of the most difficult times this country has faced is a neophyte ideologue. He remains quick to continue to blame others for his own failings. If one doubts that, his statement yesterday blaming Bush for the Dems losing the Senate seat in MA should erase the doubt in everyone’s mind we are dealing with a petulant child and not a serious leader.

  • http://randomkirk.wordpress.com randomkirk

    “That’s the real issue here: the birth of the 59-seat minority by consensus.”
    .
    Is that anything like a 53% of the popular vote “mandate”?
    .
    The left can perpetuate the fantasy that they got Obama elected, but the reality is independents did, and they are now reexamining what they thought they knew about him after having a chance to see him actually do something. Two years in the Senate, with one of them effectively running for President, isn’t exactly enough to establish a track record. Well, he has one now…not too impressive.

  • afguy

    They are qualified to sometimes win nominations and elections. They are not qualified to run countries.
    .
    Agreed. The most qualified ones are often the ones that want nothing to do with this circus we call the American government. If you want it too badly, there’s probably a reason you shouldn’t have the office.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    “The left can perpetuate the fantasy that they got Obama elected, but the reality is independents did, and they are now reexamining what they thought they knew about him after having a chance to see him actually do something. ”

    If you take away the Left’s vote for Obama do you believe the Independent vote would be enough to get him elected. I think it is fairly obvious that they both got him elected, mathematically speaking. However, the Left’s vote is always taken for granted, while the fickle independents bounce back and forth between partners. That is why they get all the attention.

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    [...] Swampland Responds: What Went Wrong For Obama – Swampland – TIME.com [...]

  • http://randomkirk.wordpress.com randomkirk

    Derek- re.:”However, the Left’s vote is always taken for granted, while the fickle independents bounce back and forth between partners. That is why they get all the attention.”
    .

    Precisely my point. The left was going to vote for Obama anyway, because they had nowhere else to go. What pushed him over the top was independents. Just as the right will invariably vote for the Republican candidate. I realize there is another option some exercise…not voting. I cannot see that happening in an election year when so many voters were energized, positively or negatively.

  • freeinpa

    Maybe the better question is”why did the left and independents (and some Republicans) voted for him? I would venture a guess the independents and Republicans voted for him because they bought the centrist, bipartisan, postracial front that was being pushed by the media.

    The question is why did the left vote for him in such great numbers?

  • Ivy_B

    How much does Lanny Davis cost?
    .
    Waaaay too much. Saw him last night on MSNBC, think it was the Ed Show and he said what needs to be done now for HCR is for the WH and Dems to go to some of the great Senators like John McCain and ask what the Dems could do to create a bill that they would help pass.
    .
    Guess he didn’t hear McCain that very day delivering yet another blistering attack on Obama.
    .
    We would do better if David stayed off the teevee completely.

  • gingerpye

    Actually, Sy2d’s post was a re-posting of an article by Drew Westin on Huffington Post (sorry, don’t know how to do links).

  • newfreedomblog

    It is in large part, exactly what it was before even the primary process started. Simply, that a black man with some level of credibility hit the scene, and the Media basically had “sensations running up their legs”. Even here in the swamp, there was little to no vetting of Obama as a candidate. A complete pass as they say on not only his limited record, but also his background and his credibility to even be the President.
    .
    Through out the entire Jeremiah Wright debacle, the Media, let me rephrase that, the liberal media put their blinders on, and drank the kool-aide not just from a glass, but at a trough just like the pigs on the farm next to my home. Do you realize how pigs eat and drink? They have no cares, they simply want fed whatever garbage you may throw at them as long as it fills their stomachs.
    .
    But, it is encouraging that even a year into his Presidency, finally we see some level of scrutiny. We see a press that is slowly but surely looking at this Administration and saying to themselves, “hmmm, he isn’t the Messiah or the second coming. He is just a man who puts one leg at a time in his pants. just like everyone else”.
    .
    Thank you Michael for at least the attempt to be more fair and balanced. One day, you may actually be an invited guest on Fox News like Joe Klein. A token liberal giving his opinion.
    .
    I wouldn’t expect too much freeinpa. Obama knows he still controls everything and anything the liberal Media consumes, just like the pigs on the farm next door. Until the Media separates their emotions and ideology from their job to report and investigate, Obama will get a pass. I just fear that before he gets to the point of pushing the button in the “black box”, the Media will wake up, and begin to do their jobs.
    .
    Until then, people like You and I are obligated to at least do the questioning. At least bring it to light. You know, “transparency”!!

  • gingerpye

    (which he/she did link to in the original thread)

  • stuartzechman

    I think you underestimate the power of a real constituency movement to influence independents and undecideds.
    .
    The electoral situation is not that independents are sitting there, alone on some island somewhere, mulling their political choices via tv ads and Sunday gasbag shows.
    .
    Ind pendents are part of a fabric of organic, authentic, popular political feeling that comes about from people, which means signs of enthusiasm, water-cooler gossip, candidate signs on lawns, expressed hopes, a sense of importance about an election, internet postings, forwarded emails, etc. Independents and undecideds exist in the midst of these phenomena, and are even more likely than partisans to be influenced by them.
    .
    That’s why a dedicated base that organizes and cares is more important than even the candidates’ direct appeals to independents and undecideds. People are now relatively inoculated against political advertising, and view it just like any other commercials, i.e. with skepticism and dismissal. Widespread, authentic, organically inspired political enthusiasm is a different sort of influence altogether. People respond most to other people, and politics in a democracy is ultimately about that response.
    .
    If the liberal base of the Democratic party, or the movement conservative base of the Republican party isn’t there to provide that bed of natural enthusiasm for independents and undecideds to witness and maybe experience, then a candidacy will inevitably fail. Tailoring the message to independents at the expense of the base is a losing proposition, because the fabric of natural enthusiasm will be undermined, and independents respond to authenticity on the part of candidates, anyway. Independents and undecideds want to be persuaded, want to be convinced that the candidates’ way is the best way, because there’s really nothing to pander to them about –they’re self-described independents and undecideds. The best message a candidate and campaign can put out is the one that appeals first to the base and then independents: that the candidate means what she says, and will do what she says she will do, regardless of whether that left or right policy prescriptions. Believability is paramount, and when your base thinks you’re a sell-out liar, independents will, too. Think John Kerry in a duck-hunting costume photo-op. Think of the groans for that colossal, failed pander to independents. It just doesn’t work.
    .
    The people with “nowhere else to go” are the people that make election results happen, not independents and undecideds. Without a base of support, it’s really the candidate –and the party– that has nowhere else to go.

  • http://randomkirk.wordpress.com randomkirk

    And I think you underestimate the intellectual curiosity of the independent voter. Independents, in my view, respond to their own analysis of the candidate, issue, whatever, than those who closely identify with “party.” One reason the independents are growing in number and importance is because they are sick and tired of seeing democracy held hostage by idealogues of both parties dictating to the representatives they elect. Our system has become one where “representative government” too often means “of the party” rather than “of the people”.

  • freeinpa

    All true. What we will now see is the warfare against banks disguised as preventing the “next financial crisis”. He completely ignores that he and his comrades (no pun intended) had their hands in voting for the bailouts.

    He also ignores that none of the failed “banks”, Lehman and Bear Stearns, had any commercial bank exposure. Bank of Amercia and Wachovia had problems unrelated to proprietary trading or derivative risk but silly lending.

    He still insistes that these evil banks pay bank all the money. He conveniently ignores the ones that are exempt from his wrath are GM, Chrysler, Fannie and Freddie who in fact are the ones costing taxpayer money.

    We have a kid standing in daddy’s shoes trying to be a grown-up. The markets are voting with their feet as gains for the year have now evaporated. The left will say so what oblivious of the fact that stae pension funds will suffer costing taxpayers even more money. It will also hurt new jobs which already is in dire straits from Obama fixes.

  • http://randomkirk.wordpress.com randomkirk

    I realize that what I’m saying about independents might sound like a contradiction of statements I’ve made earlier regarding the lack of scrutiny of Obama’s record by voters, and perhaps it is, to a degree. However, I know a large number of independents who were completely taken in by the adoration of Obama in the media. I don’t think it necessarily demonstrates a lack of intellectual inquiry so much as it represents how woefully inadequate MSM coverage of the political scene has become. If the only sources of information are talking heads on both sides of the political spectrum who continue to serve up partisan talking points as “information”, it leaves little else to go on…unless you buy the claims of the wackos.

  • pintortwo

    Thank you Michael Scherer for opening this topic and encouraging the discussion. I appreciate the nod up top too.
    .
    Per the original post, http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/01/20/five-ways-obama-went-wrong/ , I’m uncomfortable with a newsperson’s attempt to “run through some of the working theories” on how Obama went wrong (although I greedily participated). There’s too great an invitation for stagecraft. I’d demand to know who was producing Obama Went Wrong– but I really don’t care who’s conducting the orchestra.
    .
    Thanks all.

  • freeinpa

    I would agree it might not be a correct reflection of the intellectual inquiry of the independents but blaming the MSM is just a quick, shallow excuse. Conservatives have been laughed at for years for accusing the MSM media of bias. So expecting a full, fair airing of a liberal candidate by the media is a waste of time. The MSM media had a liberal candidate espousing all of their deep desires AND he was an African American. Real Journalism didn’t stand a chance.Even if he was filmed committing murder, the MSM would have found ways to destroy the tape.
    ==
    What it does show about the independents, in seeing the calls of racism against conservatives who dared raise questions about Obama, is a common human fraility of taking the path of least resistance and just join in the cheer leading.
    ==
    The MSM and the liberals denigrate the Tea Party folks but they stood by the strength of their convictions concerning what they believed Obama and his administration are doing to this country. The left may still make crazy accusations about them, but they have proved to be essentially correct. The independents are realizing that and hence you have the MA election results.
    ===
    One thing that has not been said about the MA election is that it should be a warning to Republicans as well. They can no longer take their base for granted. They should also not infer from the results that the electorate will allow them to act like the Democrats by straying away from conservative positions. If they ignore that, come November 2010, the Republican incumbents will suffer the same fate as the Democrats and it will be a huge broom sweeping through Washington.

  • stuartzechman

    billiecat:

    SZ, has there ever been a politician who didn’t over promise and underdeliver?

    So we were stupid and naive for trusting Obama to keep his word. Will I. Am was especially foolish, I suppose.
    .
    Maybe it’s just particularly bad for Obama that he didn’t run on reducing gas prices or inflation or taxes or unemployment or all of the normal over-promises. But he didn’t. He ran on the idea that cynicism about politicians’ promises was wrong and part of what needed to change for fundamental reform to happen. He told us that we had to do our part, and expect better.
    .
    If we were naive to have not adopted cynical attitudes, and expected over-promises, then he is the biggest f-ing liar.


    I’m not saying you’re entirely wrong, I just think you are a little too harsh in your assessment. Similarly, I think MS’s original No. 1 (too much on his plate) is a factor, but as Jon Stewert says, then you get an effin’ bigger plate.

    Maybe it is harsh. The situation is pretty harsh, though. I also can’t think of anything concrete that Obama has done to make New Deal II happen.


    It’s a lot of things that have slowed down Obama, but it’s a little early to call him a failure. GOP obstructionism clearly is working to undermine Obama, and yes, it’s not all ponies and kittens yet, but geez, the intensity of the carping all reminds me of my kids who can’t even wait the 3:00 minutes it takes to microwave their popcorn. Grow up already – back in the old days we had to wait ten whole minutes for our Jiffy Pop.

    I’m not calling him a failure, I’m calling him a success at implementing centrist policies in an institutional and economic crisis that can’t afford Third Way centrism as a solution.
    .
    GOP obstructionism didn’t stop FDR –hell, the Supreme Court couldn’t stop FDR. Those are the type of policies we desperately need in this country, and they’re not being proposed, let alone implemented. It’s bad for the nation, it’s bad for people, and it’s ultimately going to be terrible for Democrats electorally.
    .
    This isn’t “intense carping,” it’s reasoned analysis. It’s about clearly enunciating what policy will work the best toward fixing our problems, and holding Obama accountable for rejecting that approach. It’s not “carping” to truthfully point out that the Administration predicted –because of the policies they sold us– a cap on unemployment at 8%, and now it’s 10%. It’s saying to the Administration “you need to change course, your models are wrong, New Deal II is needed yesterday.”
    .
    When you say “grow up already,” as if we should be patient about results, you’re ignoring the results we’ve already gotten. We don’t have cram-down, because the Administration didn’t go to bat for it. We don’t have meaningful reform attached to TARP, because the Administration doesn’t believe in it. We don’t have fundamental health care reform, because they don’t think that’s good policy. We don’t have New Deal II, because they don’t believe that’s the government’s role in an economy. The stimulus was too small and didn’t help stimulate the economy enough because they honestly think that too much of a good thing is too much.
    .
    We don’t need to just settle in our living room chairs and wait for something that isn’t going to happen. It’s like saying “Just be patient, you whining children! President Bush hasn’t yet come out with date for the occupations to end, but…jeez, hold your horses, already!” W just didn’t believe in setting timetables, whether we were patient or not. Obama and his Administration don’t believe in New Deal policies, just like W doesn’t believe in timetables.
    .
    Characterizing substantial policy differences as “stamping our feet” is just plain wrong. That’s not where the criticism is coming from. People weren’t spoiled in 1933 to demand a New Deal from their government –and not just enough borrowing to take the edge off of the crisis– and we’re not throwing a temper tantrum now to demand New Deal II from the Obama Administration –or from a future McCain Administration, for that matter.
    .
    Hopefully that clears up these misconceptions about what the substantial criticism actually means, billiecat.

  • stuartzechman

    I’ve got to agree with the substance of freeinpa’s argument: whatever else can be said about the Republican party and movement conservatives’ ideas, the GOP is accountable.
    .
    That means that, when a Republican is elected to office, the people who worked and sweated and called and donated so that this could happen are virtually guaranteed to know how that representative will vote once in office. That’s the way it should work. Democrats, to their vast discredit, are bereft of that kind of accountability to the people who elect them.
    .
    If the Republican party loses that connection to the will of ordinary working people, that would be catastrophic for them, given the reputation they’ve suffered over the last eight years.
    .
    I’m not saying this a Democrat, I’m saying this as an American: I want the same level of accountability from the Democratic party as conservatives get from the GOP. It’s a more honest form of politics, and good for the country.

  • shepherdwong

    “This is a deeply Democrat state…”
    .
    I think that’s overstated. MA voted for Reagan twice, as well as a string of Republican governors. It also registers nearly half of voters as Independents.

  • freeinpa

    SZ:

    I appreciate your comments. I would add to your point, I see a situation here in PA with Sen. Bob Casey. I actually prefer him to Specter as a senator. But I have noticed with Sen. Casey and his votes and in correspondence with him that he has changed his stance on certain issues primarily fiscal responsibility. If he were a Republican, there would be a backlash here. Unfortunately, Democrats in this state would re-elect him in a heartbeat.
    ==
    I still have hope for him (Casey). He is an honest decent guy. Specter is dead to me.

  • shepherdwong

    “That means that, when a Republican is elected to office, the people who worked and sweated and called and donated so that this could happen are virtually guaranteed to know how that representative will vote once in office. That’s the way it should work. Democrats, to their vast discredit, are bereft of that kind of accountability to the people who elect them.”
    .
    You know, Stuart, holding your elected representatives accountable for obstructing progressive policies, while lying out of their teeth about them, isn’t quite the same as holding your elected representatives accountable for enacting those policies in the face of that lying opposition. And I really hate false equivalencies, especially Democrat vs. Republican ones.

  • freeinpa

    ShepherdWrong:

    How do you feel about continually lying to yourself? It is becoming clearer by the day, the lying and obfuscating has been done by Obama and he has been called on it.

    ==
    Truth and righteousness resides only on the left. Keep telling yourself that. November is coming and that attitude will bring MA results nationwide.

    Thanks for your help!

  • stuartzechman

    shepherdwong:
    .
    I don’t understand what you mean.
    .
    The Republicans were accountable to their base when they were in the majority, too.
    .
    Help me understand how parties that are accountable to their dedicated members’ will are somehow different, depending on the political or ideological agenda in question.
    .
    What am I missing?

  • stuartzechman

    Err…I guess I should ask: “What progressive policies? Who is trying to implement them? You don’t mean Beltway Democrats, right?

  • stuartzechman

    Err…I guess I should ask: “What progressive policies? Who is trying to implement them? You don’t mean Beltway Democrats, right?

  • stuartzechman

    You know what?
    .
    Scrap that last question, too.
    .
    I’ve re-read and re-read, and I just have no idea on earth what you mean, shepherdwong.

  • freeinpa

    SZ:

    I’ll help you out. Shepherdog is taking the cowards way out an dthat the entire blame is on the Republicans because, according to him, the progressive policies (whatever they are) were stopped because Republicans lied.

    An interesting comical view but that’s it. Personally I hope the left stays with that view. It helps conservatives enormously.

  • shepherdwong

    Stuart, I think the concept is quite clear: governing (whether we agree on how it’s being done) is a lot harder than obstructing. Being “accountable” for lying (in a way that pleases your constituents) and obstructing is pretty damned easy because lying and obstructing are easy. Being “accountable” for delivering public policy, especially in the face of massive disinformation and a populace unenlightened by its political press, is more demanding by orders of magnitude.
    .
    You may not think that the stimulus and health care legislation wasn’t “progressive” enough for your tastes (obviously, mine either) but ask yourself what would have been done if Republicans were in control. At least Democrats mere willing to spend significant political capital to try to solve social problems, even if in a corporate-friendly manner. Republicans just try to find ways to give away the store.
    .
    I think you’re just extremely angry at Democrats.

  • http://randomkirk.wordpress.com randomkirk

    shepherdwong-
    I have to ask: Are you a declared socialist, or in the closet? Your continuing rants over “corporate” this and “corporate” that went out of fashion with the destruction of the Berlin Wall. It’s the 21st Century. Your paranoid diatribes sound like something right out of the “Communist Manifesto”.

  • apr2563

    Stuart is right in pointing out that Obama and the Democratic party in general have discounted and demeaned the progressive base.

    I would like to challenge some myths about Massaachusetts however:
    MA has had 14 Republicans since 1914
    3 out of last 5 Reps. 1 Dem of 5 was not elected but took over for another Dem governor
    Remember the riots when bussing was introduced to MA
    Western MA very conservative

    Also, when analyzing this election next to the Presidential election of 08:
    Many Dems who voted for Brown favored stronger HCR
    Many voters believed Brown to be a moderate
    In the general election,
    Obama won because of the turn out of minorities and young people. They stayed home this time.
    Coakley did not motivate them but that did not translate to votes for Brown. Kennedy fought for his seat even if he was ahead by a large margin.

  • apr2563

    This is your “liberal” media.

  • shepherdwong

    “Your continuing rants over “corporate” this and “corporate” that went out of fashion with the destruction of the Berlin Wall.”
    .
    Actually much earlier. And you think that’s because corporations have less control over the society in the 21st Century?! Look around you dude, they literally own the place (including “big government”). Buy a clue already.

  • orlconvict

    Freeinpa – actually the point is that in a functioning democracy, the opposition party does not simply object to everything because its the idea of someone else. You can’t just say that because the elected Republicans have attempted to block anything and everything in sight, they are now effectively representing their base.

    If Democrats did that during the Bush Admin, you would of called them traitors, terrorist loving, etc. In many ways, blocking the Patriot Act, the War (and/or funding for it), the FISA changes, etc would of been the Democrats listening to their base. If they had done those things, would you have called them representing their base – or just a party trying to stop everything in sight?

  • apr2563

    Have you no memory of how the press loved McCain. During the campaign, Mr. Straight talk maverick treated them to a barbeque at his “ranch”. He has been the ideal of opinionaters like David Broder for years. They were ecstatic. Where he lost them was on his frantic response to the financial crash.
    Granted, Obama was a novelty to the press. They were not as rough on him as their bete noir Hillary Clinton, the woman that both right and some on the left love to hate. However, every gaffe and unexpected negative event from Obama’s past was regurgitated over and over again: Rev. Wright video played constantly, Michelle Obama’s 1st time feel like an American comment and Obama’s comments in SF about guns and religion were with us for weeks. Each time the press were sure this was the end for Obama.
    And of course, we had FOX news and hate radio inflaming the right.

  • apr2563

    free and new: I keep asking you to define center right and tell us what the Republicans have done for us in the last 10 years that has benefitted average Americans.
    I read your responses to sz and they seem relatively coherent and then you go off on your rants about the liberal media, socialists, blah, blah, blah. No sourcing just shouting.

  • apr2563

    As a Progressive/Liberal, what I want from Obama:

    No incremental changes
    Stand up and declare, as Stuart calls it, New Deal II.

    Work projects: As I mentioned my father survived the great depression thanks to the WPA. He lost his farm thanks to the dust bowl and locust. The WPA gave him employment and a new trade. He was able to continue as a productive, tax paying citizen and raise and educate his children who are productive, tax paying citizens. Make sure the stimulus money is actually producing jobs and demand more.

    Conservation: The CCC was able to give work to thousands of young people who contributed to the mass improvement of our national parks. Most of their salary went home to help their parents. This brought money into the economy. We could do the same now. State parks, a source of revenue to states, are closing now because states can’t afford to maintain them. Help the states and support a new CCC.

    Legislation that helps build the middle class: Fair Labor Law that brought maximum hours and minimum wages to workers. Stand up to the Republicans and demand an increase in the minimum wage.

    Bank and monetary reform: Stand up to K Street and demand reform.

    These are a few things that the Dems and Obama could do to get the attention of populists and independents. First they have to get their hands out of K Street pockets and withstand FOX, hate radio and others that will call them socialists.
    They will argue that the New Deal failed and it was the war that brought us out of the depression. Actually, it was not completely successful because Roosevelt pulled back. Countries that stuck to the cut taxes, no assistance policy, failed miserably at recovery.

  • koabd

    “I think that’s overstated. MA voted for Reagan twice, as well as a string of Republican governors. It also registers nearly half of voters as Independents.”
    .
    As a native of the Commonwealth and a registered Independent here, I’d like to second this. Take a drive around this state and you’ll find that once you get out of Metro West, you have a fairly center-right state (Western Mass is akin to Western NY in a lot of respects). Hell, if you really want to get into it, lots of kids from here end up in the Marine Corps, lots of people here like Curt Schilling and lots of people (who would never admit it now) supported the guys cracking skulls in Southie during the bussing crisis. So, disabuse yourself of the notion that just because the “Liberal Lion” hailed from here that this is the “People’s Republic” that it is often ridiculed as.

  • freeinpa

    orlconvict

    If you were honest with yourself you would admit two things: 1) The democrats obstructed Bush whenever they could. In the items you mentioned they voted for them because they didn’t have the courage to object inlight of a country being under attack. Then they spent the rest of the time haranguing Bush, a practice that the current present continues today.
    2) The Republicans have continued to try and pass items and amendments only to be voted down strictly on party lines (hmm sounds a bit like majority obstruction). Accusing the Republicans of not wanting to pass anything is a more convenient answer for the left but not a truthful one.

    ===
    apr2563
    Kept you safe so you can ask stupid questions just like the one you just did without worry. What have democrats done for Americans that didn’t involve punishing/villifying someone else to justify the position or act?

    You may not like the responses I give because you disagree with the position but they are in no form any more of a rant than you provide. You just pick different targets.

  • stuartzechman

    shepherdwong:
    .
    Oh, I get what you’re saying!
    .
    You’re saying that it’s easier for Republicans to be accountable to their base, because they don”t have to do much right now except function as a kind of political anti-matter. Democrats, on the other hand, have to produce something and tell the truth, and so it’s an unfair comparison, given those differing requirements from each base.
    .
    Lies are easier, truth-telling is harder. Productivity forward hard, maintain status quo easier.
    .
    I guess I don’t think of the Republicans as working to maintain the status quo, but working to move the entire country backwards, sort of like the desire to make Utah the model for everywhere else. I guess I don’t really see the GOP as moving mountains to keep things the way they are, but rolling everything back to pre-New Deal era (“Constitution in Exile”?) sh*ttiness.
    .
    I think that the movement conservative/Republican agenda is insanely hard to enact, since people have lived with freedoms, and greater equality, and programs that work to make their lives better, and so forth, for so long. I think that telling your base that you’re going to outlaw abortion everywhere is nuts, for example, but then they go ahead and try, because they’re accountable to their base. Actually, if centrist Democrats weren’t there to compromise with them, they’d probably get nowhere even faster.
    .
    Yep, I still don’t exactly agree with your argument, especially given the Republicans having to live down ruining the country when they were in charge, and Democrats completely bailing and failing on popular policies like timetables to withdraw from Iraq, or public plans in health care reform, but I do understand your point, now.
    .
    Thanks for spelling that out, I really didn’t understand what you meant.

  • freeinpa

    apr2563:

    “And of course, we had FOX news and hate radio inflaming the right.”

    Talk about selective memory!
    For the past nine years who was being inflamed by MSNBC and hate radio on the left?

    Everytime these gaffes abut Obama was brought up, they were explained away by the media. And let’s not forget the race card was held at the ready if anyone dare imply that Obama was culpable in anything related to those gaffes.

  • apr2563

    See post 14. MSNBC does have liberal commentators. But, it does not devout the whole day to demonizing Reps. Other than Shepherd Smith, Ailes has talking points, chyrons, and constant propoganda against the Dems. Heck, they have hired most of the potential candidates for Rep President for their network. The Dems they have on our shills for the wickedly clever Becks, etc. By the way, Beck is a whole other level of crazy.
    He like Limbaugh protest they entertain. I haven’t found bigotry, cruelty or misinformation entertaining.

  • apr2563

    free: the tea partiers denegrate the tea partiers. There big Wednesday protest failed. They are too busy fighting among themselve. It has been brought to their attention that their grassroots movement was often subsidized by Reps (Dick Army, Roger Ailes) and many have resented it. They are even disgusted with the for profit convention, over $500 to attend, being held in their name.
    Republicans can fake populism for only so long.

  • apr2563

    free: source for the tea party discontent
    http://www.prwatch.org/node/8834

  • apr2563

    free another name calling blah, blah, blah response.
    Bush kept us safe? When on 9/11?
    Actually, I think every President in their own way has kept us safe. Sometimes their methods are questionable, but I haven’t noticed that we have been invaded or that our democracy has be usurped.
    I was asking for specifics from the last 10 years that Republicans can point to that was good for the middle class. Evidently you are bereft of those specifics.

  • freeinpa

    apr2563:

    The delusional view you have is exactly why HC failed, Obama is falling and Brown won in MA.

    It is much easier to point and accuse everyone is a liar, bigot, racist than to admit that maybe your ideas and viewpoint to be frank, just suck.

    MSNBC has SOME liberal commentators is a quaint view. Notice how little in the way of viewership they have or Air America or Algore TV? Olbermannn makes Beck look kike Ghandi. How about Ed Schultz, Mike Malloy? Just straight up swell guys. Its because nobody wants to hear the venom and nonsense they spew. There are more political operatives from the Democrats on all major news and cable networks.

    Markets do work. Liberal outlets, newspapers are circling the drain. You disagree with a conservative view fine say it. But leave the delusions and sanctimony alone it leaves you looking foolish.

  • Ike Jakson
  • freeinpa

    SZ

    “Lies are easier, truth-telling is harder”.

    Actually it is easier just to call someone a liar and say you are telling the truth. SZ you have admitted that Obama has lied to the left. He did and the conservatives have said he was lying from the start. The knee jerk left had an aneurysm over it. That has and is the modus operandi of the left call folks who disagree a liar, a racist, a bigot which beats having to come clean on your positions. As the right kept shining the light on closed doors deals, back room graft, special deals for supporters at the expense of most Americans, the left did not protest the corruption of the politicians, they screamed at the right.

    ==
    I am also taken aback by your comment the Republicans want to move backwards. Is that not exactly what you are suggesting with the New Deal-FDR romantic imagery? Clear analysis by economists at UCLA demonstrated that the New Deal held up better in movies than in reality and extended the Depression. One of Obama’s economic advisers completed a research paper one year before takin gher current position that concluded that for every dollar the government spends crowds out $3 of private investments.

    While you may not like the image of Utah, the majority of Americans picture the left utopia of San Fran as ding bat central and while are content to let them lead the lives they do, they are not anxious to see it exported.

    ===
    apr2563- you have joined SherperdWrong as someone incapable of having a non-delusional conversation. Good luck to you.

  • http://randomkirk.wordpress.com randomkirk

    So, I take it Ralph Nader is your guy?

  • shepherdwong

    “I think that the movement conservative/Republican agenda is insanely hard to enact, since people have lived with freedoms, and greater equality, and programs that work to make their lives better, and so forth, for so long.”
    .
    True, if Republican leaders had any intention of enacting what they claim to believe. Do you really think party leaders want to ban abortion so they can add women to the list of people, blacks, Latinos, gays, etc., who will never vote for a Republican again? Seen any “small government” “fiscally conservative” Republicans in charge during the Republican dominance of the Congress and White House for the past thirty years? Of course not, it’s all a big lie for the benefit of their authoritarian-following idiot base.
    .
    And are they somehow being held back from obstructing progressive policy or turning the keys to public policy over to industry because of “having to live down ruining the country when they were in charge”? No, because the base doesn’t really care (they just do and believe what they’re told by Limbaugh and Beck) and Independent voters are generally clueless, especially that they are constantly being lied to by the right. You need to stop taking them at their word and watch what they do. They’re accomplishing everything they’ve set out to do: make economic policy more regressive, stop regulation of industry and confuse the great ignorant masses about their power to use government to make their lives better.

  • stuartzechman

    freeinpa:
    .
    Let’s take the New Deal thing first:

    I am also taken aback by your comment the Republicans want to move backwards. Is that not exactly what you are suggesting with the New Deal-FDR romantic imagery?

    Haven’t you heard of movement conservatives’ originalist interpretations of the Constitution ( link to disputed term “Constitution in Exile” )? The point of conservatism is to roll back the powers of the Federal government prior to the New Deal. Don’t you think, as a movement conservative, that the New Deal, and the present interpretation of the Commerce Clause are unconstitutional?
    .
    Don’t you favor rolling back the powers of the state to a pre-1933 state? Please, set me straight…
    .
    I know you folks love to point to that one UCLA study, but its value is dubious at best, and leaves critical data out.
    .
    It’s also an outlier, not representative of economists’ consensus (where there is any) on anything. If you’d like to have a conversation about what various schools of economists theorize about the New Deal and its effects, then we can have that conversation, but the UCLA study isn’t worthy of that discussion.
    .
    I’m not “admitting” that Obama lied, I’m asserting it. It’s a problem. I’m intellectually honest enough to discuss how the crap we liberals are going to deal with it.
    .
    As far as people not liking America’s population centers, and wanting to be more like Utah than San Fransisco, that’s pretty crazy. Check out the property values in San Fransisco vs those in Salt Lake, and tell me that more people want to live in Salt Lake. It’s not a perfect system of determining people’s desires, but it sure seems like people like these prosperous, forward-thinking places…that’s why they’re population centers.
    .
    But really, aren’t you folks trying to roll back the New Deal? Aren’t you trying to get the country back to a “pure” market economy…like the one we had in the nineteenth century?

  • shepherdwong

    Learn to understand the observable world around you before you try to assume anything about my thinking. Baby steps.

  • http://randomkirk.wordpress.com randomkirk

    Oh, sorry. Forgot you and your like-minded pals are the only smart people in the room. How foolish of me. (Ever wonder why no one here takes you seriously?)

  • shepherdwong

    Don’t blame me, dude, it was someone on your side who coined the phrase “reality-based community”. Obviously, he wasn’t talking about you or your buds.

  • freeinpa

    SZ:
    “but the UCLA study isn’t worthy of that discussion”

    This sounds suspiciously like the liberal defense of their view of global warming. We don’t like the result we arrogantly dismiss it out of hand. Convenient but not very convincing.

    ==
    I have no idea what a movement conservative is but I do believe in the original content of the founders and the interpretation of the constitution. Liberals like to call that rolling back the clock, I prefer to view that following the law. That is also something liberals claim to care deeply about except again when it doesn’t conform to their beliefs.
    ===
    “Check out the property values in San Fransisco vs those in Salt Lake, and tell me that more people want to live in Salt Lake.”

    Are you trying to prove that liberals know the value of nothing? Compare unemployment, foreclosures and budget deficits. UT 4.1% CA 14.7 unemployment rates, Foreclosures less than half of CA and a budget surplus compared to $22 billion deficit. I certainly can see the error of my ways.

    As far as wanting to roll everything back to a pure market economy that is well to quote a liberals favorite line – a lie. The global economy demands safeguard for consumer, corporations here and abroad. Another great bumper sticker but nowhere close to reality. The real question is the extent of regulation in our lives. Liberals claim that conservatives want to only regulate people in the bedroom. That has more to do with liberal screwing people in every other aspect of their lives.

  • freeinpa

    TRIFECTA

    Demos lost MA Senate seat

    ===

    HC is dead

    ====

    Air America filing for bankruptcy

    ===

    RIP Liberalism

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