This Just Doesn’t Happen

Joe-I’m not surprised. Afghanistan is mission not possible. Its been proven before.

Shocking! How could such a thing happen in the Graveyard of Empires?

So, how long before the GOP tries to raise money off *this* attack?

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_12/021711.php

Gunny- do you believe that the mission in Afghanistan is truly to protect the Afghani people, to deny al Qaeda safe-haven and to stabilize the region? All seem so improbable and our actions so counter-intuitive as to be smoke-screen.
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I personally think that the mission is possible, we’re just not being told what that mission is.

actually, scratch “the mission is possible” part, what I believe the mission to be is probably not possible too.

“perhaps not being as vigilant as we should be about who’s being trained and armed.”

These guys are just following the money. They’ll change sides when Warlord X offers more cash/dope. Somebody let me know when we “win.”

Quite astute, Cookie. A main reason why the Taliban has increased in strength the past two years is that fighters are being offered as much as $300 per month while the Afghan government doesn’t offer half that.

It is hard to understand why so many Muslims have a problem with a foreign army occupying their lands when their only reason for being there is to help them.

The South Vietnamese Army couldn’t be bothered to fight, either. That turned out well. Is there a helicopter pad on the roof of the embassy in Kabul?

All three possibilites are not good for “Obama’s War in Afghanistan”. It is a shame. But, I am truly not surprised since he has begun a new war based on regulations and contraints on our military and the CIA, who are being asked to fight this war with conventional war rules of engagement. While the “enemy” fights a non-conventional war.
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“Even as we make difficult decisions about going to war, we must also think clearly about how we fight it,” Obama asserted. “The Nobel Committee recognized this truth in awarding its first prize for peace to Henry Dunant, the founder of the Red Cross, and a driving force behind the Geneva Conventions.”

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http://www.redcross.org/portal/site/en/menuitem.1a019a978f421296e81ec89e43181aa0/?vgnextoid=07253bef5f475210VgnVCM10000089f0870aRCRD
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It is fair without a doubt, to tie one hand of our military and CIA’s hands behind their backs, and then ask them to “fight this war, fairly”. To always make sure that we are fighting this war by the “rules”. Just like the British commanders were soundly defeated by our forefathers, Obama will go down to defeat in this war without a doubt. Our forefathers fought a gorilla warfare type non-conventional war against the British at that time in history. They stood intelligently behind trees and barriers while the British troops marched out in uniform precision to be mowed down in a line.
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Now we are the “great power of the world”, not the British. We are making up rules of engagement in a war, that is not a conventional war, but another non-conventional war. Future history books will be repleat with remarks about how bad the decision was to fight this war on the grounds of “fairness” and out-dated rules of engagement”.
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Perhaps the uniform in question was simply stollen by a terrorist. They infiltrated the strong-hold, and detonated a bomb. No different than the recent terrorist who infiltrated our security, boarded a plane and attempted to blow it up. Uniform or no uniform, to me that is not the critical problem. The problem we face is an enemy who will fight us using any means necessary. Exactly my point in another thread that our “rules” will beat us this time, not our enemy.
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Happy New Year

“The mission in Afghanistan, always a longshot to succeed (albeit, I believe, a worthy one) just got a lot harder.”
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Hyperbole, much.

I hate to say it, but outside of these guys’ families this doesn’t really matter. We literally cannot “win” in Afghanistan with any of the strategies we’re currently pursuing.
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We can’t win a conventional war because there’s no conventional army and government to beat.
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We can’t win a COIN war because the people in Afghanistan don’t want to be connected to their hopelessly corrupt and incompetent government.
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At this point we really don’t have a good option outside of a drawdown and focus on counterterrorism/containment strategy.

I think a key question in this incident is the meaning of “uniform.” It would seem that an army base would be checking for credentials, rather than merely clothing. If the bomber’s credentials were checked and he got in anyway, then this would point to insurgent infiltration in the Afghan army, which would be by no means surprising.

Yes Rusty, we can lower our standards all in the interest of keeping us safe, much as you did yesterday, in the interest of political gain, by hoping for a terrorist attack to kill the Speaker of the house.
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I would say that any consideration of your opinions be taken in the light of your outstanding moral opinion.

“I hate to say it, but outside of these guys’ families this doesn’t really matter. We literally cannot “win” in Afghanistan with any of the strategies we’re currently pursuing.”
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What a twit you are–keep trying Sean DeC, you still have a ways to go before you can achieve the status of Markos “Screw ‘em” Moulitsas.

———————–

Create – Ordain and Establish
On This Sixth Day of Kwanzaa

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You’re referring to the comment Markos made about paid mercenaries in Iraq?

The mercenaries who make tons more money than our military men do, who break the rules and put our military men at risk when it blows back on them, who work for boondoggle corporate whore allies of the GOP like Blackwater, or Xe, or whatever name it’s taken this week to try and avoid culpability for their crimes like raping the women who work for them?

Yeah, screw ‘em.

wow, kevin, even markos walked back from his comment—but hey, just another patriotic lefty

Anyone know how many people the KGB lost during their failed 9 years in Afhanistan? One of the main reasons why the Soviet’s invaded in the first place, not the only one, but one of the main reasons they gave was to security of the Soviet Union. I know this was a different time and a different occupied, but history is history.

I served in the military. (Like Markos did, by the way.) Did you?
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Because I served my country, I know that every dollar spent on these private mercenaries is wasted money that could have been used to support actual U.S. military forces.
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And because I served my country, I know all too well the blowback that comes to our current servicemen when these hired guns, who operate outside the law, violate the ROE in a war zone and then skip away.
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Screw ‘em. And screw you too, you paper patriot. Put your money where your mouth is, or stop lecturing people like me and Markos who actually did.

This “just doesn’t happen” either:

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/05/11/the-gas-must-flow/

I am a Desert Storm vet. US Navy. 5 years. You don’t like the policy decision on contractors, fine. Big difference between that and exulting in their deaths.

Afghanistan security forces compromised by the Taliban?
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No one could have predicted this!
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Afghan National Police penetrated by Taliban at ‘every level’
The Afghan National Police have been penetrated by the Taliban “at every level” with officers poorly trained, corrupt and some addicted to drugs, a former Army officer has said.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/6502175/Afghan-National-Police-penetrated-by-Taliban-at-every-level.html
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Oh, wait.

Oh grow up. I didn’t “exult in their deaths” and neither did he. All I meant was that I’m not going to get worked up about people who go to war solely for the pursuit of money, rather than in defense of their country. The profiteering and abuses of Blackwater are a disgrace.

How much would it cost to just bribe all the local tribal warriors and buy their loyalty, rather than trying to transform the country into a modern, constitutional democracy, using nothing but foreigners?

Has anyone run the numbers?

Here’s what I was really looking for:
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Recently Karen DeYoung noted in the Washington Post that the Taliban now regularly use very sophisticated military techniques–”as if the insurgents had attended something akin to the US Army’s Ranger school, which teaches soldiers how to fight in small groups in austere environments.” Of course, some of them have attended training sessions that teach them to fight in “austere environments,” probably time and time again. If you were a Talib, wouldn’t you scout the training being offered to Afghans on the other side? And wouldn’t you do it more than once if you could get well paid every time?

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http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091005/ajones
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So how is it that Joe Klein got blindsided while a regular schmoe like me is completely unsurprised?

Oh my you are so right, allthings. I am terrible and you are perfect. That is why Obama will lose this War, Terrorism will continue and get worse, and babies will still be killed before they are born.
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More Bernie Madoffs will get away with bilking billions out of honest people despite your socialist regulations.
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More soldiers will die because you want to fight a “fair war”.
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More tax dollars spent on a war that cannot be won no matter what you think is right or wrong.
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More people will die from a totally locked up and dysfunctional health care system because of the Democrat Health Care reforms.
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Nearly a year into a totally Democrat controlled Government and we are almost double the National debt since GWB left office, America is broke and bankrupt soon to be sure.
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Yes indeed, you are right and we are all wrong.
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Happy New Year in your world. Definately can’t get any worse that is for sure. Oh, it has gotten worse, and more people are unemployed than ever before. Great job Obama, keep up the good work buddy!!

The CIA operators, especially those operating in the border areas, are usually, well, covert.

Not exactly sure what Klein means by this. The NY Times refers to Forward Operating Base Chapman as a “C.I.A. base”. Is Klein saying that the Taliban shouldn’t have been able to figure out that it was a CIA base? Or that he didn’t expect CIA officers — including the CIA base chief — to be present on a CIA base? Anyone?

Our forefathers fought a gorilla warfare type non-conventional war against the British at that time in history. They stood intelligently behind trees and barriers while the British troops marched out in uniform precision to be mowed down in a line.
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Urban myth!
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While the Minute Men did play an important role in the fight against the British, they were somewhat unreliable.
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Washington’s conventional Continental Army, on the other hand, was crucial to fighting the war:
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After the British evacuation of Boston (prompted by the placement of Continental artillery overlooking the city in March 1776), the Continental Army relocated to New York. For the next five years, the main bodies of the Continental and British armies campaigned against one another in New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. These campaigns included the notable battles of Trenton, Princeton, Brandywine, Germantown, and Morristown, among many others.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Army

“You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders – The most famous of which is “never get involved in a land war in Asia” ”
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–The Princess Bride
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Those who forget the movies are doomed to repeat the past. Or something.

Perfect I am not Rusty, never claimed to be neither do I claim to be superior, nor do I claim that the Democrats, Obama or any other politician is perfect, nor do I claim the Republicans are perfect, nor do I wish for the death of political opponents. I would think that only those who think they are perfect, and unwilling to admit that perhaps they might be a tad bit wrong would wish such a thing.

The political rhetoric you spew forth is beyond the limits of normal discourse. Your dissatisfaction with the political direction of this country does not justify your wish of violence.

You spoke it Rusty, I didn’t. I didn’t make you say it or wish it, it isn’t my fault that you apparently can not control your emotions.

Did I use your words against you? Yes.

Iraq was invaded so that we would have military bases and infrastructure from which to police the oil producing ME. Iraq became a political landmine here at home as people discovered the ulterior motives and lies of the neoconservatives. Currently, the Long Warriors focus on Afghanistan. Perhaps Bush, Obama, Congress, media types, our generals, and even Cheney believe (or have convinced themselves) that we can also effectively combat terrorism from these bases. Our soldiers absolutely believe they are helping the Afghani people and protecting Americans. However, the inescapable fact is that our efforts in Afghanistan increase radicalism, de-stabilize the region, hurt the Afghani people, waste money and divert us from doing all we can to protect ourselves.
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It is extremely unlikely that we will ever be able to build an effective Afghani government and army. Our presence will never be welcome. And while we spend trillions in Afghanistan, other fires will break-out. What next? How many permanent bases are enough? We have to realize that we can’t police the world. We have to focus on protecting our borders and taking the bullseye of our backs.

whatever, a$$hat

Perhaps I’m being a bit naive, but can anyone explain what we gain by constantly measuring the impact of everything that happens in Afghanistan using a zero to ten scale where the closer you are to ten the more it proves that we should not have escalated the war in Afghanistan? The fact remains that the war has been escalated and it seems counter productive for the left to have as it’s sole contribution to the ongoing debate a continuous whine of “I told you so” in an attempt to nag this president into submission. Perhaps you are privy to a benefit that I can quite see but from where I sit it looks like the only thing it accomplishes is giving the right free rein to flood the political landscape with even more hypocrisies and lies. Are we so invested in our Vietnam era, anti-war identity that we are blind to the fact that continuing on our current path leaves our political flanks undefended in the face of an opponent that will use every opening to push its political agenda? An agenda I might remind you is to go to war everywhere all at once with Islam. And trust me they’ve already picked the first 5 new targets and have dusted off the plans for limited nuclear weapons by now. So by all means keep up the practice of using every tragedy to second-guess our president’s decisions. Continue to assume that you know everything he knows, that you’re right about us not having anything at stake, and perhaps that he has been duped by the military and had no choice but to acquiesce to their demands.

Funny, during the health care debate so many of you called for the president to act more like Bush and make conservadems do his bidding. You called for Democrats to act more like Republicans and ignore opposition and push legislation through. Unfortunately, you asked all this without ever bothering to morph a GOP like base that would never engage in this kind of behavior and even now will still not speak ill of President Bush, While you have been wringing your hands and second guessing this president since the campaign, they continue to follow the GOP agenda even if it means following it over a cliff. Now I know Democrats are too independently minded to succumb to such an authoritarian relationship with political leaders, but could you at least stop making it easier for the other side?

Here’s an interesting quote from the Obama press operation:
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“Second, the former Vice President makes the clearly untrue claim that the President – who is this nation’s Commander-in-Chief – needs to realize we are at War. I don’t think anyone realizes this very hard reality more than President Obama.”
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The presumptuousness of these people knows no bounds. I’d say the guys slogging though Afghanistan on their third or fourth tour know that we are at war more than Obama.

Derek, we’re trying that in Iraq. It doesn’t work.
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Coincidentally, Navy Commander Jeff Huber (link) wrote about this recently. The whole article should be read, but I give you a small piece:
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(Gen. Petraeus) created the illusion of a successful surge by lowering violence statistics through his usual method of operation: hand out weapons to the bad guys, bribe the bad guys not to use the weapons, and pretend to be shocked, shocked when the bad guys take the bribes and use the weapons anyway.
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(snip)
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Three years after the surge began, violence shows no signs of disappearing. Holiday attacks were especially brutal. Mosul Mayor Zuhair Muhsen al-Aaraji escaped an assassination attempt on Christmas Eve. (Mosul is the town Petraeus supposedly “tamed” during his first tour in Iraq. Within weeks after he left and the graft well ran dry, Mosul went up for grabs and has been a trouble spot ever since.)

Really spob? I mean really? Just go ahead and take a little bit of the comment I posted and then run with it while ignoring the actual point of what I was saying. Nice.
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Also, you call out other people and vets on their military credentials… but yours consist of spending a 4 day war on a boat? Wow.
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I don’t know or care what Markos said. I don’t read him. But don’t EVER, EVER accuse me of exulting someone’s death. Minimizing strategic impact? Yep, totally. But that’s a far cry from exulting. Don’t straw man me.

Only a conservative who has a habit of referring to war so flippantly that war and torture have become his default response would suggest that the president is exhibiting hubris for purporting to know that he is at war. I would hope every president, regardless of partisan persuasion would shoulder the responsibility for sending Americans into harms way and carry the weight of the tragic outcomes of his decisions when they don’t come home. To suggest that any president would make these decisions so lightly as to not understand the nature of the commands he has given says a great deal more about you than the president whose the target of your accusations. And from everything I know about our current President certainly doesn’t apply to him.

Everyone should take some time and read this working paper from the Wilson Center concerning the KGB in Afghanistan. Its 176 pages but, as you read it take notice of the involvement of the same countries, the same areas, the same problems with the afghan army and corruption thoughout, and the same problems the Soviets were having and then we are now going through.
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Rusty thinks that some how all is needed is for us to get tougher. The problem is all kinds of tough approaches have been tried before with failed success. Joe seems to think we can just out last them. Obama thinks we can win their hearts and minds. How about none of the above as a possibility?
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http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/pubs/ACFAE9.pdf.

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Well Dee-That’s what the criticism seems to be from the right. Because Obama is not running around with his hair on fire, seeing a terrorist behind every bush and tree, spouting off one liners like Dirty Harry and forcing his fellow Americans to pee themselves out of over hyped fear. The right wants him to display the exact kind of hysteria that terrorists can only dream of right now. Until then Obama can’t really give a sh*t about the war.

“The Continental Army employed some strange tactics in a desperate attempt to win. They used the Indian’s technique of guerilla warfare, which proved to be very efficient in situations such as the retreat from Concord to Boston. They hid behind trees and in foliage, shooting at British as they passed through. The colonists also launched surprise attacks such as Benedict Arnold’s on Ticonderoga that were either during the winter, during the night, or both (Welsh, 25). The British Army was not used to seeing tactics like this, and it caught them off guard in many instances, ultimately leading to the American victory.”

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http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/929223/american_military_strategy_during_the_pg2.html?cat=37
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A note of caution. We don’t know enough. Josh reports that Brian Ross (yes, him again!) at ABC is walking back his report on the two ex-Gitmo detainees who were released into the hands of the Saudi authorities and then went on to plan the 253 attack. The rush to get it first is not new. So until we get something tangible about the incident involving the CIA deaths we may want to step off the “give ‘em hell train”.

Recall that Iraqis did the same, joined the army, got American training and cash, left in droves with some joining the other side. Are we training people to kill our own?

So…we shouldn’t second-guess a war that’s lasted for eight years, with no real objectives, that’s cost us billions of dollars and hundreds of American lives, in an area of the world known for ruining empires?
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Just so we can deny the rabid Right an avenue of attack that they’re going to use anyway, no matter what, all day every day, even if (and especially if) they have to make stuff up to attack us with?

wow, sean deC, i guess reading comprehension isnt your strong suit–if you read carefully, you’ll note that i said you had a ways to go before you achieved moulitsas’ status. Thus, i did not accuse you of exulting. as for dealing with your point–well, after your opening line, i just decided that anything you had to say wasnt worth dealing with.

I didn’t say that the Americans never used guerrilla tactics, I was disputing the point that the war was won solely through guerrilla tactics.
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Saying that all the Americans hid behind trees and shot at the ranks of British soldiers for the whole war, and that’s how we won, displays a grade-school understanding of the war.

ah dee, i can always count on you to miss the point of the post . . . . the point was not that st. barack doesnt know the seriousness of sendng troops into battle–it’s the arrogance of his press flack’s statement

Thank you so much for responding to commentary, Joe Klein.

But again I ask gunny, what’s the alternative do nothing? I expect spob and rusty to continue on their path toward irrelevancy because they are constitutionally incapable of revising their thoughts and adapting to information that falls outside the fox news defined paradigm. However, I hope that you’ll revise some of your thinking. I don’t think that the Obama plan is to win the hearts and minds of Afghanis. I think the plan is to have a surge to push the Taliban back to manageable levels to buy the time they need to shore up Pakistan. I don’t think for a second that Afghanistan is their biggest concern. From the very begining this president has been telling us that his major concern is nuclear weapons. With Pakistanis willingly playing the appeasement game with the Taliban because they are wrongly but nevertheless obsessively focused on India, I think the US got scared that they might actually put them selves in the position to be taken over by extremist, placing the nuclear weapons within reach of terrorists. That’s our nightmare. And if what they are doing helps prevent that scenario then its worth it don’t you think?

The mission in Afghanistan, always a longshot to succeed (albeit, I believe, a worthy one) just got a lot harder.
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Joe has used this “it might not work” theme a few times. He also has defended Obama for possibly having goals in Afghanistan, namely to stabilize Pakistan and protect the Afghani people, that were not authorized by Congress (to fight al Qaeda).
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I wonder if McCain had won and pursued exactly the same course (limit interrogations to AFM regs, seek to close Gitmo, surge in Afg by 30K troops, invest $4B in Afg infrastructure, predator drone attacks in Pak) would Joe defend him similarly?

“it’s the arrogance of his press flack’s statement”
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Seriously Spob, you get your panties in a bunch because you imagine a friggin press release is arrogant. OMG.

Oh yes Cliff, you are so right and I am yet wrong again. Oh that’s right, I didn’t say that was the only way the Revolutionary War was won, but it was a major difference in the war strategies used, and the British were caught off guard in the tactics used, which eventually DID win the war.
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Try again little liberal, just like the rest you are simply a gotcha type liberal. Just like the Joe Kleins and Charlie Gibson’s of the world, it is all about a “gotcha” question or attempting to prove your “superior” brain power which amounts to no more than a pile of dog crap.
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First grade indeed.

I believe you already know the answer to that question so I fail to understand your criticism. Doesn’t Joe enjoy continuous ridicule by commenters for his initial support of GOP efforts in Iraq? Isn’t his credibility constantly called into question because he gave Pete Hoekstra’s assertions credibility over progressive voices? What would make you think that he might not be as defensive of McCain especially since before McCain started worrying about support from conservatives he would have been on board with all of these things you’ve mentioned.

Dee, I appreciate your concern re Pakistan. But what we’re doing there is like leaning into a right-cross. Attacking the Afghan Taliban will further de-stabilize Pakistan as refugees and fighters seek refuge. Our attacks will likely cause Pakistani officers to feel more Taliban sympathy and American resentment. Further, Homeland Security protects us from that scenario, not the military. I’ll also add that the possibility that anyone could smuggle nuc material, a trigger, and a means of deployment out of Pak facilities, out of the country and into the US is remote. IMO it is a fantastical story designed to make us scarred- like Saddam’s non-existent suitcase nukes.

“But again I ask gunny, what’s the alternative do nothing?”
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Yes. That is an alternative. It’s not the plan I want. I just want it to end. I hope and pray that anything works, Obama’s plan, the right’s plan Joe’s plan, but I want it to end and doing nothing should be at least part of the discussion.

Dee, the alternative to nothing is strict counterterrorism. We keep a couple of bases and conduct targeting kill missions and drone strikes whenever the guys we really don’t like start putting together a camp or whatnot. It’s not perfect, but it’s close to as effective as what we’re doing now at about 1/80th the price.

Better start building your nuclear bomb bunker, Dee. I am pretty sure “that One” is so far out of his league in this War, that the next thing will be nukes in the hands of the terrorists.
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Write ole Barack baby a letter while you are at it, and ask him to release a few more terrorists to Yemen. That should do it.

pintortwo I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest there is likely a strong correlation between foreign occupation and terrorist activity. My guess is if we look back in history we will find a plethora of examples showing the two strongly coupled together. If so, one ought to expect terrorist activity to occur, as long as one is bound and determined to remain an occupier of a country that is not one’s own.

I think he wouldn’t defend McCain because McCain would have Bolton and Scheunemann on his advisory staff (Boot, Kristol, Lieberman…). Joe, I believe, would continue to portray neocons as “dumb”. There are no neocons in the Obama admin, so Klein can dub them “smart” (of course, Obama has done things worthy of that label, but I’m focusing on Af/Pak). What Joe fails to acknowledge is that the military minds calling the shots in Afg were all approved by Cheney, Rummy, and crew. This confuses his neat smart/dumb divisions.

Panties not in a bunch–just commenting on the remarkable arrogance of this crowd.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/12/did_the_obama_administration_v.asp#more
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Yep, this Administration keeps faith with the servicemen . . . . releasing those with the blood of our soldiers on their hands.

Perhaps spob has a point the statement was arrogant, oh you mean he wasn’t talking about Cheney’s statement because that would be hubris. Frankly, if I have any problem with the white house statement it would be that it didn’t go nearly far enough for my satisfaction. It should have said of course the President knows we are at war, only an idiot like Cheney, who we know for a fact is an idiot because of the share volume of examples of unfathomable ineptitude left behind by the previous administration’s attempts to prosecute war, would suggest otherwise.

Oh and Dee, when you write that letter, ask him for some “Obama money” to build your bunker. Let the rest of the Obamabots on this site know how you make out. Oh and please say a prayer or two for Rush. Thanks
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“Gotcha” questions?
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In what respect, rusty?

i just decided that anything you had to say wasnt worth dealing with
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And now you know how everyone here feels about you.

PIntortwo, obviously you suffer from the most common of GOP afflictions RSMD (Republican Selective Memory Disorder). If not for this disease, you might have figured out your assertions would not be valid to anyone who remembers that the current military led by Petraeus, came into the picture long after the neocon cabal, Rumsfeld et al, screwed things up royally and were summarily discredited and a new strategy and personnel were supported by the previous administration. Obviously, you have conveniently forgotten that the prosecution of the insurgent campaign initially got started without Washington’s knowledge since it went against their policy of debaathification and it was not until the policies could be proven successful were they notified and it was not until they had proven successful did McCain and crew have the ability to jump on board like it was their idea. Perhaps you should write less and read more because the facts are not nearly simple as you are portraying them to be. The neocons were rightly discredited and perhaps had Bush not waited until his final year in office to send them packing we might have been in a much better position when Obama took office. But nevertheless, that was not how it worked out, Cheney managed to hold on to power far longer than was health for our nation and the neocons were allowed to drive the country into a ditch. Sorry pintortwo but all of the engagement in revisionists history in the world is not going to change the fact that they were spectacularly wrong and we have proof of their stupidity in bright freaking technicolor.

That’s some mighty impressive linking there Physician!

And the plot thickens. “Rule of law” indeed.

Just for my little liberal friends:
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“Rasmussen’s poll on the Flight 253 terrorist was revealing.

58% say waterboard Umar Farouk Abdul Mutallab (30% say don’t).

71% say the military should investigate it as an act of terrorism (22% said it is a criminal act).

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http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/archives/6955
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http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/december_2009/58_favor_waterboarding_of_plane_terrorist_to_get_information

Pintortwo where’s your proof of this destabilization? As far as I can tell, the regime that took over as a result of the Bush policies with Mushariff was just so weak that they were trading land and citizens for peace. When that blew up in their face they finally started listening to the current administration and started fighting back their Taliban and gaining support from their people. Of course I understand why this in an inconvenient fact because it means the Obama doctrine is superior to the Bush doctrine. In fact. from everything I’ve read the only problem is that Congress wrote some strings into their aid package that is demeaning and might end up throwing a wrench in the works because we just can’t seem to get that paternal tendency toward people of color out of our system.
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Now if we have a surge on our side to push the Taliban back down to manageable levels, then we can reduce our footprint in 18 months and hold them down with those lighter forces that could focus on targeted killings when they try to get out of hand. Let’s not forget we already did this once, but the Bush administration squandered our advantage when they when into Iraq. So we have to put things back before a program of monitoring them with light forces will work, Granted, it would have been better to do this over the last 8 years but unfortunately we were too busy indulging in neocons fantasies.

Just for you pNNto
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Sorry to mislead you Physician I would never click on one of your links.

That’s the problem when you say “second guessing a war that’s gone on for eight years.” But the truth is the war hasn’t gone on for eight years under this President and he shouldn’t be charged for eight years worth of mistakes or have his decisions discounted because of the previous administration’s ineptitude in prosecuting the war. Perhaps we ought to give Obama the benefit of the doubt and hold him accountable for this new strategy if it doesn’t work out the way he says it will, but I think its unfair to lob these assaults on him because we’re mad at the eight wasted years by Bush.

Rusty,

I can’t believe how off base you are. “Conventional”? “Rules of Engagement”? Since when has anything involving the CIA been conventional and since when has the CIA been subject to the “rules of engagement”?

It is easy to sit back and blame Obama when it was George Bush who took his eye off the ball to go after a two-bit dictator who had nothing to do with attacking us, but who, years earlier, tried to get hitmen to off Bush’s dad. Instead of focusing on the real fight against Al-Qaida, Bush went after a much easier target.

If anything, Obama has put more focus on Afghanistan, agreeing to raise the troop levels to 30,000, much to the dismay of Liberals. We have seen an increase in drone strikes in Pakistan, which I applaud dispite the risks and the international implications.

Blaming Obama is like putting a quarterback in the game in the 4th quarter down by 10 and then blaming him if the team loses. Obama has to deal with the Karzai government which grows more unpopular with each growing day. McCrystal is doing all he can, but until we are able to build a stabilizing army to at least keep Al-Qaida in check. It will be a difficult and thankless job.

Here;s an interesting little bit of information:
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http://spectator.org/archives/2009/12/31/the-politics-of-incompetence

You make a good point about this being a different President, and the need to give him time to sort out a complex situation.
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But I still can’t shake the feeling that the Administration isn’t leveling with us, and that this new surge of troops is just a replay.

There’s an AP story that puts a different slant on this disaster:

” WASHINGTON – The suicide bomber who killed seven CIA employees and wounded six more at a remote outpost in southeastern Afghanistan had been invited onto the base and had not been searched, two former U.S. officials have told The Associated Press.

A former senior intelligence official says the man was being courted as an informant and that it was the first time he had been brought inside the camp.

The official says a senior and experienced CIA debriefer came from Kabul for the meeting, suggesting that the purpose of the meeting was to gain intelligence.

The former intelligence officials and another former official with knowledge of the attack spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.

The CIA would not confirm the details, and said they were still gathering evidence.”

They knew this whackjob and let him pass through with frisking him. Why else would so many CIA types be congregated closely enough to be incinerated ?

Also from the same site that “pinto” ( I know he hates that name) links to;
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“Commander Jeff Huber, U.S. Navy (Retired) commanded an E-2C Hawkeye squadron and was operations officer of a Navy air wing and an aircraft carrier. Jeff’s essays have been required reading at the U.S. Naval War College where he earned a master of arts degree in neoconservative studies in 1995. His satires on military and foreign policy affairs appear at Antiwar.com, Aviation Week and Pen and Sword. Jeff’s novel Bathtub Admirals, a lampoon of America’s rise to global dominance, is on sale now.

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Figures, from a lame brain liberal they cite a Satirist as his source.
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AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Where you looking for a Satanist perhaps to help prove your point but mis-spelled it in your google search, pinto?
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AAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sounds like an argument against mob rule to me.

Oh “Pnut”, I am crushed.
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AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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But, oh well. I am sure there are many of my followers who do click on my links. What’s one silly little liberal who doesn’t?

Dee, among my many shortcomings, I am certain that RSMD is not one of them. I see little difference betw Iraq and Afghanistan- whatever AQ may currently be there exist to fight our soldiers; soldiers leave and no AQ. But, as I am not an expert, I try to rely on those who are. And I doubt that I’ll be able to get you to change your mind. As such, I’ll let an expert, unbridled by contractual or ideological leanings, say it:
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I’m hoping Obama has finally realized that Afghanistan is a bad investment, and that he can’t fix a violent, corrupt country by pouring arms and money into it. Unfortunately, I don’t think he’s there yet.
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I also don’t think he’s reached the point where he’s ready to stand up to his generals and his Secretary of Defense. The singular failing of the Obama presidency may turn out to be that he kept David Petraeus, Ray Odierno, Mike Mullen, and Robert Gates on the job and that he put Petraeus protégé McChrystal, who was Dick Cheney’s personal assassin, in charge of Afghanistan.
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…The egotistical four-stars and their stooge boss Gates got too used to the idea that they ran the country, and that kind of thinking in military circles has to stop… We don’t exist to support our military. Our military exists to support us, and it’s not doing a very good job of it. It creates more terrorists than it kills or captures.
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Our military has turned putrid. We did pretty darn good during the post Desert Storm years when we leaned largely on naval and air forces to show the flag and perform surgical strikes. Boots on the ground have led to quagmires in Iraq and Afghanistan, just as they did in Vietnam.
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The last thing we want to do is put tens of thousands more boots in Afghanistan. We’ve already made this mistake in Korea and Vietnam and Iraq. How many more times will we make it?
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Jeff Huber

For you Rusty, an oldy but a goody:

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It’s no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242.html

I seem to recall Laura Bush saying that no one suffered more because of the wars than she and President Bush. Arrogant much, spob?

Rustyret- The fact that he writes satires doesn’t mean that he only writes satires. His novel Bathtub Admirals is a satire, his “essays (which) have been required reading at the U.S. Naval War College”, are not. His blog is not. I’m sure you know this.
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Happy New Year

Dee, what new strategy? Aside from a change in tone toward Iran and (presumably) restricting interrogations to the Army Field Manual regs, not much different. Black sites, indefinite detention, cover past offenses, drone attacks… I mentioned McCain earlier because I expect he would have the same plan (only add chest-beating toward Iran; I think McC would use AFM too, he knows torture never works) which is the old plan. Permanence to police the region, only now focused on Afghanistan where al Qaeda has been vanquished.

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/11/22/he-who-controls-the-past/

“I am sure there are many of my followers who do click on my links.”
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There it is, delusions of grandeur to go with all the rest. Congratulations dude, you’re a whole freekin’ chapter.

Happy New Year everyone.

After the xmas incident, this just has to take the backseat. I am sorry for the loss of these people, more so for those affected by it, families, children, friends, and I mourn for them to start the new year with loss, sorrow, tears, and funerals. Tragic.
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On a more cold blooded note, they are highly paid mercenaries who signed up for this, with the supreme “intelligence” agency whose failures are only magnified by this incident.
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Happy New Year to everyone too. Thanks, gunny. I look forward to your and the swamp regulars insight in the new year as in the old one.

Thanks, Gunny and FJ: a happy New Year to everyone. And a thought for those who fell and those who are sustaining injuries. Take care.

I have no idea what the nature of your comments is, because I won’t click on them. I really think it’s vile to only treat these threads as an opportunity to schill for yourself.
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If you have something to say to us all, then summarize it here, and then invite us to read more at your site.

Happy New Year back at you gunny and 7oaks, a to all the denizens of the swamp. I wish you all a healthy and satisfying year.

What’s crazy about the story that this guy was let onto the base without being searched is that they traded their lives for the sake of not insulting the guy by inspecting him. Wanted to show they trusted him.

This is potentially a bigger story than the Christmas miss though, and may prolong and hamper our efforts in Afghanistan significantly

A rightwinger who’s unable to appreciate the art of satire?

Color me surprised

rusty has 6 (six) followers on twitter, don’t underestimate him!

Very sad.
Why does Nancy Pelosis’ name come to my m ind?

She doesn’t have a clue.

We should put her out there on the front line.

Let’s take a vote.

Rusty I had read that report.

These guys need to read and reread and send it to old Nancy………………….

Of course not. That would be incredibly unfair-and cruel- to all the soldiers out there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/01/opinion/01brooks.html?hp

There is ONE and ONLY ONE way for the US to win a war in Afghanistan and that is to turn the entire “peace keeping” operation over to China as part of their mining and other economic development.
We outsource everything else to China, so why not this war. And China likely has a less corrupt military supply system than we do.

jymallyn, I absolutely agree. Only problem is that China doesn’t have as many fools as we do, and they are more productively engaged in enterprises all over the world. Guess we are just stuck in this mire.

If we increase the size of the penguin until it is the same height as a man and then compare the relative brain size, we know find that the penguin’s brain is still smaller….

But, and this is the point, it is larger than it was!…

http://japan-russia.jimdo.com/soul-searching/

The right half of the brain controls the left half of the body.
This means that only left handed people are in their right mind….

http://japan-russia.jimdo.com/obama-afghanistan-policy/

Now if we have a surge on our side to push the Taliban back down to manageable levels, then we can reduce our footprint in 18 months and hold them down with those lighter forces that could focus on targeted killings when they try to get out of hand… So we have to put things back before a program of monitoring them with light forces will work… unfortunately we were too busy indulging in neocons fantasies.
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Dee, pushing the Taliban to manageable levels is not exactly right. The Taliban are not al Qaeda, they’re Afghanis, they fight us because we’re on their land. They’ve been the de-facto govt for a long time. I expect that you’d have a tough time finding Afghani citizens that do not have a blood relationship to (or are not themselves) the people we call “insurgents”. We’re the interlopers. If our troops leave, the Taliban won’t follow. However, if you mean forge a manageable relationship with the Taliban, then OK. I’ll forgo my skepticism and hope that it happens.
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But Dee, why not go to a “light footprint” now? Al Qaeda has no operational capacity in Afghanistan. They don’t need the place. Watch the area with satellites, if we get good intel, send a drone or special ops unit- we can do that now. And as far as the Afghani people, let humanitarian groups handle humanitarian work.
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Unfortunately, what we’re doing now IS indulging neocon fantasy: building more permanent military infrastructure from which to police the oil-producing Mid East. It is exactly the mission that Bush/Cheney started.

” .. But, and this is the point, it is larger than it was!… ..”

But, and this is the point, is ‘larger’ necessarily ‘better’ or preferable?
Shouldn’t you include some caveats?

All decent humans in the world pray that
President Obama will finally allow the full truth about the evil crimes of 9/11 to be publically known,
and before thousands of other innocents all over the world -and all of us – pay a heavy price for this ignorance.

and 3 of those servicemen are my grandsons.
and they (and others) do not feel like Obama is covering their backs…………….they do not have a lot of confidence in him as a leader. He spends more time condemning their country than defending it.

Obama gave a much different speech about American when he spoke at the Democrat Convention for Kerry.
He was so proud to be in America. Then he becomes President and look at what he has to say…….you would never think he was President of America if you just listen to him speak………………I keep thinking what happened??

Was it all just talk?????????

Condemn Bush if you like ………………………I never did hear him talk about America the way Obama does.
and the servicemen knew he was behind them.

You mean how W was behind the troops when he started a war of choice in Iraq? Or when he was busy using stop-loss to force them back into duty? Or when he was busy taking away bonuses and benefits when soldiers were seriously wounded and thus unable to fulfill their commitment? Or when the chickenhawk that is W was busy talking tough while putting the lives of others on the line when he couldn’t even complete his air guard duty?
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You might want to re-evaluate the ridiculous position that you have taken.

But again I ask gunny, what’s the alternative do nothing?

I am good with that. Works for Canada.

If our “enemy” can’t even afford a round trip, frequent flyer upgrade ticket for their underpants bombers, then I think we need to calm down.