Would You Make This Deal?

If nuke power and offshore drilling are good ideas in their own right, then why cant we just do them?
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Also, with all the “stimulus” money going around, why aren’t major cities getting funding to time traffic lights for efficient traffic flow?

Oil is a dead end. Offshore drilling can delay the day of reckoning but it will of course be just providing another source of Co2. Nuclear power OTOH, in spite of the problems, is a viable alternative in the near term.

No.

If nuke power and offshore drilling are good ideas in their own right, then why cant we just do them?
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I agree.
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I recall when Bush and Cheney came into office, they were all hopped up about nuclear power, and, less importantly, I too thought it sounded like a good idea. Yet the golden age of nuclear power in America never happened. Is it just too expensive? Or what?
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Offshore drilling is a drop-in-the-bucket solution that comes at great environmental cost. I wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand, but it’s got a pretty high bar to clear.

The entire SCAM of global warming is that CO2 is not a dangerous substance. It is simply a weapon of the far left to further their control over our daily lives. It is nothing more than a power grab, and creation of bigger government programs. More control over our daily lives that the progressives so love. To allow the progressives to pass laws that restrict our individual freedoms granted to each and everyone of us in the Constitution.
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For billions of years the earth itself has been spewing out large amounts of CO2, and the world continues to live on.
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For billions of years the earth’s volcanoes have spewed out more carbon than all other sources known to man, including man-made carbon combined. The net effect, a less than ONE DEGREE increase in our temperatures over the past 150 years.
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That is what the emails from East Anglia University exposed. This is all nothing more than a “Global Warming Farce”. A “Climate Change Conspiracy” by the far left progressive nutcases. To create a so-called crisis where nothing exists.
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I say absolutely NO DEAL. Pick the case that has common sense contained within it, and wait out the Global Warming alarmist until 2010 when all the puffers are voted out of Congress, and then pass legislation that allows for “drill baby drill” legislation to make the Arabs drown in their oil.

“I’d rather see the carbon come from the Gulf of Mexico than from the Persian Gulf, with its attendant national security burdens.”

I don’t think that’s how it works, Joe. My understanding is that the oil pumped will go into the world marketplace where it will be bought and sold. Some will end up in America, but a goodly portion will end up elsewhere. I don’t think you can direct where it will go.

And you use the word “carbon” instead of oil so I may have misunderstood what you meant.

Cheers!

Yes, you’re right Chris–with one caveat: you can put a tax on imported oil, a nice stiff one I’d hope.

Is it just too expensive?

I believe that’s a very significant factor. Nuke plants are extremely expensive to build and operate.

you can put a tax on imported oil, a nice stiff one I’d hope.

Wouldn’t that violate WTO agreements?

Also, with all the “stimulus” money going around, why aren’t major cities getting funding to time traffic lights for efficient traffic flow?
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That’s a fine idea, spob. I never thought I’d see the day when I agree with you on something.

As to Senator Graham’s proposal, I’d say let’s see what he’s got. Specific details of what the bill would look like, and specific names of senators who will vote for it. Otherwise, it’s just Lucy with the football again.

Actually it’s not. We still have no clue what to do with the waste. All the nuclear waste being produced today is stored onsite basically in the open since all the plans on storage have failed (Harry Reid blocked a site in Nevada, where the waste would be stored in a mountain range far, far away from anything living) and accidents have and will happen with not so good outcomes. Thirdly, energy companies are not investing in nuclear energy because it is too costly to setup and operate. To be costefficient, the sites have to be large which increases the investment burden which in turn made energy companies turn away.

Ocean acidification. We’re goners. Merry Christmas.

“And the French have proved that nuclear power is a safe and clean alternative to coal-fired plants.”
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How so Joe? We are talking about that last 50 years, for something that has to be contained for thousands of years.
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History tells me that humans are not very reliable on this score, not to mention failed States, and why haven’t you mentioned Russia as a fine example of what a powerfull government can do to keep it citizens safe?

Thank you for responding to my post, Joe! I appreciate the clarification.

I agree with “arbitrary” that I would like to hear more from Senator Graham, about who he’s bringing to the dance. I really, really want to believe that the GOP is capable of working with democrats on this vital issue, but I’ve become quite sceptical after watching the health care debate unfold. When even John McCain and Lindsey Graham will vote against cloture of a defense appropriations bill to stall health care, then you know that up is down and black is white.

Maybe. Depends on the details – especially the financing of the nuclear power plants.

Offshore drilling is a bad idea. It will do virtually nothing to help either prices or dependency on foreign oil – and it will increase emissions and general pollution. If it was offset by a carbon tax that did more good than the offshore drilling did bad? Well I’d take it but be very annoyed at politicians like Graham being either bought and paid by the Oil industry – or stupid.

Nuclear Power is a fine idea as a stopgap measure. It’s what can help carry us between fossile fuels and sustainable energy. Note that nuclear power in itself is not the answer – it’s not sustainable (limited resources and issues with a different kind of pollution), but it’s a decent choice in the interim. However, it’s not going to help NOW. The amount of money and work that it will take means that nuclear power production will – at best – ramp up slowly. Since we want some strict safety we can’t just instantly re-orient our entire industry (like was done for WW2). Sure we could produce a lot of nuclear power plants in a few years – if we were willing to forgo safety completely – but somehow I don’t think that’s a solution :p

“Harry Reid blocked a site in Nevada, where the waste would be stored in a mountain range far, far away from anything living”
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Yucca Mtn. is one of the worst waste sites imaginable. It’s about 80 miles from Las Vegas, has an adjacent town (Beatty), is on a military base, is near tourist-filled Death Valley, and is in a region prone to earthquakes (LV has ‘em now and then). The old nuclear bomb test site from the ‘50s is literally next door. Regular car traffic flows on nearby US 95 (which is the main drag between LV and Reno). Otherwise, it’s perfect.

One thing people like to forget when they advocate nuclear power as a stopgap measure is how long it takes to get a nuclear power plant up and running, by the time we could build enough nuclear power plants to decrease our dependence on fossil fuels we could have invested enough money in solar and other alternative energy sources to make those an effective replacement.

I Know isn’t it great, we kinda missed the opportunity on this whole issue anyways, even if the worlds carbon output stopped right now we would have serious environmental effects that we can no longer reverse, let the fun begin…

this should have been a reply to Cookie Puss, sorry

That’s a fair point. Isn’t the average construction time for a plant something like 12 years?

If nuclear power is so swell, why did it cost me so much money? When costs for electricity were deregulated in PA (soon to be regulated again,) we had to pay an extra amount to the utility for the “stranded costs” for their building a nuclear plants. We were told that if competition was allowed and they lost customers, they wouldn’t get enough for building the plant.

Now, ten years later the controls are off, the competition has been driven out of business, and our rates are expected to increase by 20%. I don’t believe anything that any of them say.

No.

Put the money Graham is proposing into public transportation and technologies that reduce energy consumption instead, and a decade from now you won’t need as much oil or to build nuclear power plants.

I suppose that would make too much sense, wouldn’t it?

Decon,

Point taken, overall point is however that we still do not have a solution to the waste problem…..

“proposing into public transportation and technologies that reduce energy consumption instead,”

That worked well in Copenhagen as the mass transit carbon friendly vehicles stood empty and there was a shortage of gas guzzling carbon spewing limos. WHich is just another example of the left “do as I say not as I do”. This group is led by the Enviro-god Algore who in many ways spews more toxic fumes than many small countries.

Oh, how shocking??

This is no real surprise.

As I always say here, the Obama folks should by now have a plan in which they anticipate most moves by the “Right” and at least have some preparation for it.
Of course Graham is doing what he was expected to do. No Gasps from the Obama folks on account of this expected, I hope.

LM

http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/technology-savvy-criminals-are-the-greatest-threat-to-national-security/

…just another example of the left “do as I say not as I do”.
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Nah. I’d be perfectly happy taking a train to work or downtown to catch a Wings game. I already use compact fluorescents for lighting. I also recycle. I winterize my house every year and have a wood-burning fireplace for additional heating.
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So, as usual, you’re wrong.

You know what? F@ck it. We’re not going to get any reform in health care because of all the crybabies on the right (and now the left) who can’t win everything they want and so are willing to hold their breath until they do. And we’re not going to get a Climate Change Treaty, for the same reason.
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I’m tired of the whinging. Merry F@cking Christmas and Happy F@cking Hannukah. We’re doomed. Humanity will cease to be the dominant lifeform on the planet. I, for one, welcome our new cockroach overlords.

Your response is typical of the left and is the main reason we as a country are dependent on oil from the Middle East. Environmental canards, bogus safety issues are at the heart of your arguments.

To say offshore drilling will do nothing is at best a naive opinion or just an out and out lie. We heard for over 10 years it would take 10 years to get oil from either Alaska or off-shore. Well guess what; we would have those resources now.

The cost of nuclear was driven up by the enviro whackos who keep suing over every permit..

I find it amusing that we can have alternative energy sources tomorrow in technologies that don’t exist while it will take too long to invest in proven readily available energy sources.

As usual you have a liberal that takes a data point of one and becomes the master of trend line analysis to extrapolate it to a whole segment of unknown data points. Then scream You are wrong!.

Seems like the arguments for global warming, health care and……

Weak and pathetic.

As usual you have a liberal that takes a data point of one…
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If you can take the actions of a few and draw conclusions about the whole, I can follow the same standard you’ve set for yourself, freeper…
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…which also means that I can freely state that intellectually dishonest, morally-deficient moronic scumbags such as yourself, kattest, and textee are representative of conservatives in America as a whole! Thanks!
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(If you object to that overgeneralization by citing times where you haven’t been a right-wing d0uchebag, well, you’re just being weak and pathetic. Again, your standards, not mine, freeper.)

White House (D) Representatives (D) Senate (D)- Seems all the whining and crying is on the left. Of course the failure of HC “reform” and Climate Treaty may be based on the fact that the public has discovered, through no help from the left, that both are based on lies and deception.

For both, they were done in secret, opposition was silenced and obvious questions went unanswered and unresponded (a la Algore)

grape_crush Party of one resumes the fall back defense name calling.

Neither nuclear power nor offshore drilling could possibly put a dent in the problem for ten years at least, whereby the solution to the problem had better be well underway or the ballgame is over (assuming it isn’t already). In the near-term we need to switch our coal-fired plants to natural gas and then start Marshall-Plan-scale development of a smart grid supplied by micro-level renewable power generation – think solar panel on every roof, wind farm on every ridge, biodiesel generator in every garage, etc. In the meantime, we can work on scrubbing and carbon sequestration technology, as well as safe nuclear power generation to see if uranium and coal can be made safe and practical.
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But none of that will happen unless we find a way to make Exxon-Mobile as profitable developing and selling those energy sources as they are selling us dead dinosaurs.

Describing you as a “dishonest, morally-deficient moronic scumbag”, “right-wing d0uchebag”, and “conservative” – although all closely related – is not namecalling, freeper, it’s a description.
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That you object to being described this way, by your own rules of argument, means that you are also weak and pathetic…words which are descriptors and that you have used as well.
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What’s interesting is that every ‘argument tactic’ that you whine about lefties using is one that you’ve already used yourself.
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How weak and pathetic is that?

That worked well in Copenhagen as the mass transit carbon friendly vehicles stood empty and there was a shortage of gas guzzling carbon spewing limos. WHich is just another example of the left “do as I say not as I do”.
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I saw this meme bandied about before. Actually, Denmark arranged for carbon offsets for all the carbon use of the summit, including the travel.
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http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/50386/title/Countering_Copenhagen%E2%80%99s_Carbon_Footprint_

Something along those lines, might be worth looking up if someone is interested, I personally have finals to study for.

Hmm All I see after your name is Blah blah blah blah blah

Which is a step up from your usual posts

Freeinpa -
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The oil available off the continental shelf (OCS) is difficult to get. It requires deep water drilling equipment which is quite expensive. OCS oil only makes economic sense when the price of oil is high. But people like to claim extracting the oil will help lower the price. Do you understand the catch-22 here? When the price falls too low, oil companies will cancel pricey exploration and drilling projects.The only way OCS oil makes sense at the current price of oil is if its subsidized. Are you truly suggesting we should subsidize these projects?
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$150 a barrel was an artificial price not set by supply and demand. Extracting OCS will only become profitable when oil approches that price again, and oil will not stay at that price until we actually reach a situation where demand is truly outpacing supply. Once this happens, we’d better have an economy on the cusp of transitioning away from oil dependency or things will get real ugly real quick.
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Furthermore, the total amount of oil currently estimated to exist in OCS fields is about six months of global demand. While you can make the arguement that more oil can’t hurt, I can make the arguement that if we only focus on oil exploration, then we are setting ourselves up for lots of pain later on as US oil production continues to decline.
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Legislating sound energy policy requires an understanding of all these nuances. All the drill-baby-drill carolers are clamoring for policy backed by ideology, not actuality.

I believe in market-based solutions. Here’s the deal. Study the various processes for generating energy, price in the negative externalities, and let the chips fall where they may.

Take nuclear power. Right now it is massively subsidized by taxpayers. If you remove the subsidies, we won’t be having this discussion because the industry will die overnight.

People need to use common sense. Nuclear power plants are simply advanced steam engines. They power generators by boiling water that turns to steam that turns turbines.

Let me tell you what ISN’T the most efficient way to boil water:

1. Mine uranium.

2. Refine uranium ore.

3. Dispose of uranium ore waste.

4. Reclaim mine land.

5. Secure uranium from theft.

6. Fashion uranium into usable form (i.e. rods or pellets)

7. Construct power plant that is impervious to natural disasters and accidental or intentional human attack (e.g. jet plane collisions).

8. Train power plant workers.

9. Secure power plant from attack.

10. Provide rigorous internal security against sabotage.

11. Transport uranium to power plant.

12. Boil water and generate electricity.

13. Safely dispose of low-level radioactive waste.

14. Safely store spent fuel outside of reactor for months/years prior to final disposal.

15. Study and approve potential spent fuel repositories. Require that proper repository be impervious to attack and natural disasters for hundreds if not thousands of years, notwithstanding the general inability to forecast political and technological events beyond a decade or so.

15. Safely transport cooled, spent fuel to repository.

16 Store spent fuel for centuries/millenia.

17. Insure against accidents during the entire process.

18. Accept political consequences of endorsing nuclear power as an acceptable energy source. IOW, if we build nuclear power plants then we can’t tell others not to do so. Such other countries likely will not have the same safeguards that the U.S. has. We will be exposed to heightened risks of nuclear or radiological attacks, as well as run of the mill spills, leaks, and meltdowns.

But, hey, prove me wrong. Factor all of the above into the price of nuclear-power generated electricity, remove all of the subsidies, and if it is still cheaper than alternative energy sources then build away!

I would absolutely make this deal.

You can start building nuclear power plants when you can get people to like living having them around. Senator Graham might be in favor of nuclear power in theory, but try to store some of the attendant nuclear waste in his home state and see what he has to say.
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Nuclear power is a classic “not in my backyard” issue. It’s cheap and it’s clean and it’s sciencey, so as long as you’re out of range of a potential Chernobyl and somebody else gets stuck with the waste, there’s nothing not to like.
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Like most Republican counter-proposals, it sounds like a nice, common-sense solution to your average white middle class voter, but it’s a complete non-starter as an actual workable solution to anybody’s problems and everybody knows it. Until scientists figure out how to get a net gain from fusion reactions, nuclear power will continue to be an afterthought in the US.

nathan7777

You write many of the same arguments I heard when I was doing shale oil and other synthetic fuels research over 30 years ago. Here we are 30 years later with the same arguments.

If we had access to more supplies, rest assured Chavez and the other oil-money dependent countries would be puking out oil to sell at any cost. With no threat fo other supply oil prices will stay high.

“Furthermore, the total amount of oil currently estimated to exist in OCS fields is about six months of global demand”

This may be true, but we are not looking to meet global supply just the US.

And while the left has bucked at developing oil sources fo rth elast 30 years, we have not developed any alternative sources of energy at any price- just a fantasy. That is not an energy policy based on actuality as well. Just like the do-gooders have developed a energy efficient lightbulb to replace the current ones. Oh one minor drawback it contains mercury which just might create a environmental problem. How is that for a sound policy?

Ivy_b

That is precisely what is wrong with the left. Tax the crap out of everyone let others pay so the liberal elite can do as they please. Carbon credits are the biggest form of fraud going. Al Gore dims several counties with the electricity at Gore Casa Grande in Tennessee and flies private jets everywhere to lecture others aobut how horrible they are for consuming fossill fuels. Oh yeah he buys carbon credits.

It reminds me of the interviews of the mobsters wives after they were convicted of gunning down other gangster: “they are good boys, they give candy to the children”.

I’d make the deal.
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I know at some point, the right is going to get off-shore drilling. The oil companies think they can make way too much money off of it to not buy the 51 Senators required to get this into a Bill. Hell, even with a Democratic majority in the Senate, the Oil companies got a big win for oil drilling.
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Furthermore, I’m not convinced that the environmental impact is that insanely worse than the environmental impact from incidents like Shell effectively dumping gallon after gallon of oil in Chad. At least in America, there is some prospect of regulation
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On the flip side, you finally have a possible way to get Cap and Trade through the Senate. It’s worth it, IMO

I’d have to say you’re probably right, if this is what it takes then it is quite a bit better than what i can imagine happening to the bill if it spends too much time in the senate (health care reform anybody) regulated drilling with some strict environmental standards and nuclear power plants that are likely not to get built anyways (too expensive, takes too long) are a small price to pay for pushing cap and trade through congress.

We can resolve this whole thing with semantics, as all right wingers are wont to do. How about “Freedom Energy”? That should do it. When Bill O’Reily (sic?) comes out of his Merry Christmas Crusade, he may support it. Freedom Towers? There is no end what to what we can do with shallow, meaningless, right wing patriotism and stupidity. Right?
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Oh, and Merry Christmas.

In fact, recent evidence indicates that the much-touted safety of the French nuclear state industry is more fiction than fact.

Unless you want to ignore nuclear waste leaking into the Champagne water table and being exported to places where regulation is lax and corruption is rife…

I suspect there’s much more scandal where those come from, and like nuclear waste, its inevitable that the scandals will leak.

freeinpa> Were you disingeniuos on purpose or just didn’t think about it before you regurgitated thetorical talking points you’ve been told?
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If the cost of extracting oil in Alaska adds up to a sale price of ~$150 which seems to be accepted within the industry then why would Chavez (note the use of a scarecrow name) or any other country “be puking out oil to sell at any cost”? They can just sell it at any price below $150 (which the currently do). The only way your argument makes sense is if you are supporting state-funded subsidies for the oil companies. Is that REALLY what you want to say?
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As for the time-scale that’s not really the issue. Had the “left” not held back drilling 10 years ago we’d have it today. Had the “right” not held back solar and wind 10 years ago we’d have it today. The political blame-game is pointless and ridiculous. No solution should be included or excluded based on how long it’d take to implement, but it’s obviously a factor in assessing it’s effectiveness in the short run.

History of Ukraine contains all roads which pass through its state is the state of the Black and Caspian Sea states of Europe and the Russian Federation and Belarus and the Baltic States. In this environment, Ukraine was and will be, but you should know about the many communities of national minorities in Ukraine, which should assist the indigenous population to win the victory over Russian chauvinism and cynicism.
Many professors from the science of physics know what the torsion fields, which affect the human brain, and at different frequencies program commands to perform the person will be in it in the brain. This experiment was prepared and holding extensive amount in Ukraine during the Orange Revolution, the square of the capital and major cities of Ukraine. During the Orange Revolution, where I took part in rallies, I was surprised by the behavior of a video camera operator, who runs a video camera on the faces of people actively speakers for Yushchenko and Ukraine’s future. Why people who participated in the election of President Yushchenko and the future of Ukraine, located in a large garden and joy (remember the first speech by President of Czechia) after the election. I am a former journalist was surprised not competent operator, because the video camera does not include dae signal on a video shoot. To me, at my invitation arriving Jaroslav Ksonzhek, Consul of Poland, where our conversation and confirmed abuse of the Moscow government. It turns out that Moscow is continuing research to control and possess the human brain. It turns out that Putin is in this regard will have the state not only Europe and America but to solve their business programs. Carrying gas pipe through the Baltic States. I want to thank the many Jew for their help when I conducted an investigation, rabbi warned their communities do not come to the square, then be bad for health and psychological disorder. In order to save not only the state president, people, foreign embassies are located in Ukraine, I send the mail letters and telegrams to the President, but in the presidential administration or the children sit or bureaucrats. I understand that Ukraine is very far from your country and therefore should be realistic and simple plan for withdrawal from such situations. You may be surprised by my feeling high torsion fields “But I believe in God and constantly attend Protestant church Evangelicals, Bible study, psychology, folklore, cultural studies, analytics, folk music and songs. Second great experience to travel by military enterprises of when I worked in a factory where assembly consisted of turbines in Krivoy Rog. So I like the saying: The wisdom of man checks only way direction and goals. To convey to the President of Ukraine is a question I have for the first time in its life wrote a letter to the USА Embassy Vil’yamu Taylor, knowing that letters to foreign embassies can check (I wrote the text of the letter to enter a deadlock that people check messages on Post Office in Kiev ) counting on professional psychologists embassy. Maybe my innocence and romanticism great kindness not give me a quiet life, so I thought that everything will be like in the movies. For example, Come from Kiev or the USА embassy good man, and on home phone inviting meeting in Dnipropetrovsk administration and great pity it is all fairy tale, which shows in the film. How can I feel a major role analysis on various issues when I sent a fax wife Ekaterina Yushchenko president and then president’s wife appealed to the USА Ambassador (because her aides have not read Catherine fax). So no one sees me as an expert, thinking that I am working with the USА Embassy, President of Ukraine in 2006, invited himself to the USА Ambassador and the Ambassador of Poland. Unfortunately there is not securing for copyrights. Very please note the danger, that Russia may give your country, and protect my copyright on intellectual property, to realize their potential to the benefit of our good relations. Now, please imagine if Russia can use the torsion field during military operations as well as in public (panic, revolution, rebellion and what you want) to be a civil war and chaos in the elections and other companies. If Russia will send a torsion field in the brain of miners from the city of Donetsk, what then will be in Kiev?. Why do I appeal to you Your Majesty, for help! Because you are a patriot of the United States Americas and the state can imagine that a person before the rally (The action darling) can drink tea or coffee active liquid, the influence of torsion fields resulting in a mutation of the body!. This is a question that I have studied, we save lives and you and the President of the United States Americas and many people! And the main thing that Ms. Catherine Chumachenko was born in the United States and was the square with the children. With great respect to you and hope for your tolerance and kindness, Your Majesty. And for me there will be enormous gladness when any man will arrive to me in guests that could make sure in veracity of my moral principles.

Valeriy Kharchenko, son of Mary Chumachenko father Vladimir Kharchenko. Kirovograd region, Dolinsky district, village Vasylivka.

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