The Left-Blogosphere Melts Down

Joe, if you’ll note, I objected to your name-calling in the last post, not your comments on the policy. Nice that you cite Ezra. Note that he doesn’t feel the need to spend any time in his excellent post tearing down others to make himself feel better/superior.

Unlike you do.

In this post and your previous post…

“There are millions of poor people who have no health insurance–tens of thousands of them with serious illnesses–who will be subsidized to buy health insurance and able to receive both preventive and chronic care for the first time if this imperfect bill passes.”
.
Perhaps you should have thought of that before you helped kill the public option.

Yes Joe. The working poor will get health coverage. This is a good thing. The cost of it was rolling over to doctors, big pharma, and big HMO and lining their pockets further.
.
It’s not just an “ideological fetish” to be upset by the fact that our congress is bought and owned by big industries at the expense of the rest of us.
.
The fact that Holy Joe is a village wise man and “honorable” is your profession’s burden to bear. You all are enabling the looting of our treasury by these big industries by not doing a good enough job calling these congress members bought.
.
I have decided reluctantly to support the bill. But, my objections to the bill are not “a fetish”.

While there are many very good elements to the bill, an individual mandate with no public option, Medicare buy-in, or premium caps on private insurance is simple corporate welfare. It’s not simple ideology; if there is nothing to control the price of premiums and it is illegal to be uninsured, the people in that hazy area between being wealthy enough to truly afford the premiums and being poor enough to receive a subsidy will be bankrupted.
.
But I suppose since *you* like the bill, it’s immature to raise such concerns.

Joe Klein:
.
This tactic of yours is what’s disgraceful:

There are millions of poor people who have no health insurance–tens of thousands of them with serious illnesses–who will be subsidized to buy health insurance and able to receive both preventive and chronic care for the first time if this imperfect bill passes.

As I wrote in your previous thread ( link ):

…the hard truth is that your desperation is being exploited by a political clique for their own ends….
.
It’s not that the perfect is getting in the way of the good, it’s that this particular legislation that the Senate and the White House are pushing is bad.
.
When insurers raise premiums again, and Republicans run and win on attacking the health insurance subsidies that they will say are driving up the premium prices for everybody, you will see whatever gains proffered to the few by this legislation evaporate.
.
…centrists are setting the country up for a hard time in hard times. They themselves will be the first to put health care subsidies on the chopping block when they begin to suspect that the right is ascendant again. Remember Bill Clinton’s “welfare reform”? The centrists won’t hesitate to take what they’ve handed down to you away when they feel threatened, and that will leave…the industry welfare they’ve designed into law.
.
The centrists…have been dangling this desperately needed help in front of your face for the past year, and dithering and dithering while people’s lives were at stake. They’re the ones saying “our way or the highway”, not liberals.
.
The centrist Dem health care reform legislation is bad…and the extent that it helps any ordinary families at all is a hammer that this clique’s supporters use to hang over the heads of the people who actually care about policy helping anyone.

I see that you’re not above using the “hammer” technique, Joe Klein, and that’s unfortunate.

The opposition by Republicans was no surprise, nor was the chicanery of a few Democratic conservatives in the Senate…
.
Wait, Joe, you’re now just blowing these two groups off as irrelevant or as “oh well, that’s how things work in DC” (fainting couch)? Maybe you’ll proudly let us know you’ve criticized R’s and corporate D’s before (with links), but at least many progressives are sticking to their principles. Where are the R’s and corp. D’s (and of course Holy Joe, but I digress) standing by their voting constituents (not the corporations they also represent) to get them full, fair HC coverage?
.
Remember that to date, Joe Cao is the only R to vote for HCR. Where are his colleagues? So by your own behavior here, why are you giving up criticizing them? Since you brought it up, please justify your behavior.

In which corp. villager #1 links to corp. villagers 2 & 3 to support his venal talking points.

The Left blogosphere melts down and is quickly followed by the Centrist Columnist. Good show all around.

What it comes down to is this quote from Cohen:

In a world with an individual mandate, insurance has to be affordable. If it’s not, there’s a huge political backlash. That gives Congress a direct incentive to focus on cost.

The above is not actually true.
.
There are 60 democrats in the Senate, and they cannot even pass the bill as it exists now. What possible bizzaroland do you live in when they will have the 60 votes necessary to control costs in the way that it needs to be done to be effective? Single-payer would have controlled costs. This bill does nothing to control costs, and yet we are to believe that maybe, someday, someone will introduce a bill to actually control costs years after the bill goes into effect? And it’s sophistry to claim some moral high ground about the sick, uninsured people who would be worlds better off with a public option instead of a mandate. You took that off the table, not Liberals.
.
The bottom line is that if you are going to force everyone to buy insurance, you better have insurance worth buying. Currently, we don’t. You are asking everyone to buy turds today that you might polish tomorrow. It’s madness.

Joe,

Thanks for posting these links. I’m interested in this debate, and somewhat inclined to support the bill.

I also understand why the mandate is considered a crucial component of reform. But I don’t see where you or Cohn or the other Klein have addressed the objections.

Shorter Cohn: The Dutch model is good. The Senate bills falls short of the Dutch model. Therefore, the Senate bill is not bad.

Shorter (Ezra) Klein: The bill may control costs somewhat, and if it doesn’t, it might force Congress to deal with costs down the road.

What it seems to come down to is: For political reasons we can’t do the right thing (true universal coverage), so we’ll start out by pushing this onto the backs of the middle class. Then we’ll patch it up later, because … (mumble mumble) … and then we’ll have universal health care, yay!

There are also millions of people currently being over-charged by their insurance companies and this bill does nothing for them. This was supposed to be about better, cheaper medical coverage for everyone, not just covering the uninsured.

Joe is essentially blaming the progressives for the actions of the fiscal neurotics. The Rs and the corporacrats smashed the bill into utter dysfunction, but it’s somehow the left’s fault for not gleefully accepting what scraps Joe Lieberman sees fit to allow.

“we’ll patch it up later”
.
Um, yeah, after 2013 when it takes effect, right? After two congressional elections (surely expanding progressive influence : ) and Obama’s safely assured his lame-duck term?
.
But don’t ask me, I’m busy trying to print my Dean in ’12 bumper sticker!

Joe, how do you prevent the insurance industry taking advantage of the mandated coverage? What is there in the bill that prevents them from subverting premium and coverage?
I worked for 10 years at the Health Insurance Plan of California (later PacAdvantage). Initially it was a state plan offering insurance to small businesses (no pre-existing, etc.). Eventually it was turned over to a private entity and the insurance industry killed the plan. It no longer exists.
It also had a large choice of private insurance plans.
Now tell me, don’t you know that the insurance companies used their exclusion from price fixing to make sure that there was little competition? Just as they do with the subsidized Medicare Advantage plans.
That is why a Public Option is needed. Do not trust the private insurance companies and pharma to do what is good for insureds.
Correspondents from all over the media came to oh and aw about the plan (including Mr., can’t we all get along Broder). None of them ever followed up to see what happened to the plan.

A bad bill IS worse than no bill. There will not be another health care bill taken up by Congress for another 10 years once a bill is passed. Anyone who thinks otherwise is dreaming. Do it right the first time!

The Administration has no idea how worked up rank and file Democrats are over the lack of intestinal fortitude they have shown to adopt REAL reform. They have *no* idea. The President is not just in danger of losing independent voters…progressive Democrats are disappointed and perturbed.

This issue is just too serious for preening or ranting.

Then explain how this and your ‘Dumb Dean’ post isn’t preening or ranting, Joe.

There are millions of poor people who have no health insurance…

Where the focus should be on getting those millions of people health care, Joe, not health insurance.

…who will be subsidized to buy health insurance…

Insurance rates will increase to absorb the newly available funds, which means that the non-subsidized will have to pay a higher percentage of income and those subsidized will have to have those subsidies increased, which means finding more funding, which means…

This is a massive move toward progressivity, an enormous new entitlement for the working poor.

It’s become a handout to big business under the guise of progressivity.

I’m just dumbstruck…

Why on Earth would you think that the reaction would be any different? Are you that out of touch with public sentiment?

…by those on the left who would oppose this for whatever ideological fetishes

Bullsh!t. There are other countries that have functioning health care systems with lower costs and better outcomes. Emulating those systems is not an ‘ideological fetish’, Joe; it’s going with what works.

Grow up.

Looks like Joe got his feelings hurt again. Get ready for six months’ worth of ‘the Left blogosphere are meanies’ posts.

Interesting how you criticize Joe for name-calling when you started out one of your other posts today “F*** You Joe”

Joe Klein wants you to “grow up.”
.
But please note that Joe would never write, “Grow the f*** up.”
.
Because he doesn’t use asterisks when he insults.

Ah, well, jake, simply responding in kind.
.
I should know better. Perhaps if I were a nationally known columnist, I wouldn’t be so defensive.
.
Oops! Guess that argument doesn’t fly!

I used to have a dog named F*** You Joe. Always a barrel of laughs when I called him for dinner.

hells,
.
You’re banned.

“Jay Rockefeller, Sherrod Brown”
.
Sorry, fellas, take it up with Reid and Obama. They screwed you over, not the people who told you what needed to be done in the first place and see this train wreck for what it is.

Joe, I guess you are Obama’s time columnist of life. You want to pass anything, so that it will create history and not reform. You cheering helped KILL HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE. GO TO HELL, YOU WILL.

…and this:

an enormous new entitlement for the working poor

is quite a misstatement, even for Joe Klein.
.
It was never supposed to be an enormous new entitlement for the working poor. Never.
.
It was supposed to be “Universal Health Care”, remember ( link to Barack Obama’s bold ideas on health care )?

Delivered by Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois, a candidate for the 2008 Democratic nomination for the presidency.
.
THE TIME HAS COME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE
.
Thursday, January 25, 2007
.
Families USA Conference, Washington, DC
.
From Maine to California, from business to labor, from Democrats to Republicans, the emergence of new and bold proposals from across the spectrum has effectively ended the debate over whether or not we should have universal health care in this country.

Plans that tinker and halfway measures now belong to yesterday.
.
In the 2008 presidential campaign and Congressional campaigns all across the country, affordable, universal health care for every single American must not be a question of whether. It must be a question of how.
.
Let me repeat that: I am absolutely determined that, by the end of the first term of the next president, we should have universal health care in this country.
.
I know there’s a cynicism out there about whether this can happen, and there’s reason for it. Every four years, health care plans are offered up in campaigns with great fanfare and promise.
.
I’m sure that this campaign season will be no exception. …by the time a president is sworn in, the interest groups and the partisans have torn down whatever ideas have been offered… and we’re back to business as usual.
.
But once those campaigns end, the plans collapse under the weight of Washington politics, leaving the rest of America to struggle with skyrocketing costs.
.
And when some try to propose something bold, the interests groups and the partisans treat it like a sporting event, with each side keeping score of who’s up and who’s down, using fear and divisiveness and other cheap tricks to win their argument, even if we lose our solution in the process.
.
For years, the can’t-do crowd has scared the American people into believing that universal health care would mean socialized medicine, burdensome taxes, rationing – that we should just stay out of the way, let the market do what it will, and tinker at the margins.
.
The time has come for universal health care in America.

Did they think that nobody was listening, or that we all have amnesia, or something?
.
“Universal Health Care”!
.
It’s what we voted for!
.
It was supposed to be like Social Security, a working, valuable benefit for every American to rely upon fairly and equally, not welfare that could be taken away when politicians prey on middle class people who get sick of paying a share of a benefit for someone else’s family who made just a little less money than themselves.
.
Since Joe Klein’s DLC friends lined up to “end welfare as we know it” when Bill Clinton was in office, why wouldn’t we reasonably assume that things will get worse for health care reform later, not better?
.
No, this was never, ever supposed to be about “an enormous new entitlement for the working poor”.
.
Not ever.

Joe, sit down, have a cup of tea… You’re too worked up, we’re worried about you. Listen, I promise to only criticize when you peddle your centrist, lukewarm, “official-sources-say”, doesn’t-fix-anything, couldn’t-possibly-be-right, village-approved, super-serious, super-smart analysis of Afghanistan. You can have healthcare.

“This issue is just too serious for preening or ranting.”
.
If that were true – and you’d have to have been dead the past six months (or, apparently, Joe Klein) to think that it is – then the Congress should get to work right away on real reform. How about a personal mandate + a for-profit insurance industry + Medicare for all. Bet you could draft that in about two weeks and it would score well enough for reconciliation.

Thank you, Stuart. When did we forget that this was about better, cheaper health care for everybody and not just about uninsured? The uninsured are important yes. But getting them access to health care is necessary but not sufficient.

I know this might prove too long for Joe, but…

Dave Johnson:

“Here is the larger problem: the public is going to judge US – progressives, liberals, Democrats, etc. – based on what these clucks pass.

This health “reform” bill plays right into decades of conservative/corporate propaganda about liberals and their policies – and government in general. Republicans will sell it as “big government ordering you around and reaching into your pocket” and the corporate media will echo that until everyone sees it that way. There won’t be a word explaining that this money actually goes to big corporations, it will be about everyone losing the insurance they have and how people will soon be paying big money to a “government insurance bureaucracy.” (Are we going to counter this by saying, “well, no, actually it goes to big corporations not government”?)

And, frankly, why should the public ever again listen to anyone left of John McCain after this, if this is what happens when Democrats get power? It is just wrong to use that power to order everyone to shell out a huge amount of money – while Wall Street hands out billions of taxpayer dollars as bonuses. They will be portrayed as confirming what the right has been saying about “liberals” they use the power of the state to order people to follow elitist schemes – which is exactly what this is, a scheme where elite people with power decide what is good for the rest of us – mandates are important because you can’t cover pre-existing without them, etc. THIS is where a President is supposed to be a leader come in and insist on broader guidelines with a veto threat.”

http://www.commondreams.org/further/2009/12/15-1

Maybe Joe is just doing a head-fake to get Lieberman on board with the current bill by making sure evertyone knows how much the hippies hate it.

He certainly isn’t targetting the people who find the bill objectionable for his persuasion. He’s rather openly being an a$$ about it.

For the record though, even though I support the current bill, it’s not difficult to understand where the left is coming from. They feel like they’re being ripped off and they don’t want to see the people doing the ripping off to be rewarded for it. I don’t think there’s as much money to be saved as they think there is but I know for a fact that they come by their attitude honestly, which is more than we can say about a lot of participants in the debate.

Since Joe brought up Nate Silver, who I usually admire, this time I think Silver is wrong. He doesn’t seem to have a realistic idea of family expenses. This article notes some problems with Nate’s article.

http://www.americablog.com/2009/12/good-rebuttal-to-nate-silver-on.html

This issue is just too serious for preening or ranting.

Joe Klein rules out any further commentary on health reform. He will now return to topics on which he feels qualified to do both. FISA. Afghanistan. The taut magnificence of JS McCain’s furry buttocks. Simple topics.

All that’s missing from Johnson’s reasonable analysis is the inevitable betrayal of the center:
.
Joe Klein’s “The Incredible Shrinking Democrats” (Sunday, Feb. 06, 2005):

The President has merely stated the obvious, that reductions [in Social Security benefits] will be necessary. Reid…made the absurd comparison between Bush’s very conservative investment-account proposal and Las Vegas gaming tables.
.
Bush’s private investment accounts, combined with a reduction in benefits or higher taxes, is one way for baby boomers to lighten the burden of our retirement upon our children. There are other ways, but none without pain. A far more profitable—and absolutely necessary—reform would be a market-oriented overhaul of Medicare, but Dems just say no to that too.

It’s not just that conservatives will run with the “liberals spent your money on their ideals again” theme, it’s that centrist ideologues like Joe Klein will run with it first…and then so will the Democrats.

Paul, it’s a rare moment when left and right agree on an issue as contentious as health care reform. (True, the “agreement” is, broadly, that this is a bad bill.)
.
The lack of cost controls in this bill make it unpalatable to citizens of all stripes. It’s viewed as yet another giveaway to corporate interests, funded by taxpayers.
.
It seems to me that whatever one thinks of the teabag contingent, folks in Washington (Joe included) are underestimating the populist anger — both left and right — of the populace.
.
While unemployment remains around 10% and foreclosures continue to toss people out of their homes, our Congress continues to give away taxpayer money to huge corporate interests who line the pockets of the very people charged with allocating our money.
.
One doesn’t have to be right or left to be angry about the results of this health care reform debate. It fits the pattern of the bank bailouts that rewarded monumental incompetence and greed by making the biggest institutions even bigger, thereby increasing their power.
.
It’s a one-sided proposition, with the average citizen on the short end of the stick.
.

Joe: just watched Motor Mouth Matthews push Dean with the help of the $300million Senator from Tennessee. The Village has decided the Obama Bill, as worked out with the Senate is A OK. Jay Rockefeller is foaming at the mouth: he is so angry with Dr Dean’s critique. Tweety, who never stops reminding us of his Congressional experience thinks the current bill before the Senate is B – OK. So I am off on holidays knowing that a guy who is intimately familiar with the way Congress works has given his stamp of approval.

On my return I will see what TIME does to discipline people like us for our intemperate posts.

Meanwhile Seasons Greeting.

Reminds me of the dog’s name from “The Jerk”….

‘There are 60 democrats in the Senate…’
.
Actually, there are 58 Democrats in the Senate.
.
It’s an easy error to make, though, since much of the media frequently spreads this bit of false information. Just like the media routinely reports that 60 votes are needed to pass legislation (as though it were normal) without mentioning that the legislation is being filibustered by the republicans.

Great link, Ivy_B, thanks so much.

I could do without the name-calling. Joe’s point is that passing something is better than passing what you really want. It’s still a significant accomplishment. If you’re that upset with the way things are turning out, wait ’til ’11. Democrats are like herding cats anyway.

Yeah, what’s up with this (from last election’s preeminent pollster no less):

10. Where is the evidence that the public option is particularly important to base voters and/or swing voters (rather than activists), as compared with other aspects of health care reform?

.
I guess he needed a number “10″.

Wow, Joe, what a moment of triumph!

Millions of people will now have insurance, and the best part of all is that they will be forced to pay 20-30% more than they have to, because, well, because then Evan Bayh and Joe Lieberman can get 0.0001% of that $20 Billion a year extorted from ordinary working Americans through the boards seats and lobbying activities of their wives.

And those of us who object to that, who see that $20B as something that those working Americans could keep, and use to raise and educate their children, rather than pay to insurance companies, we’re dirty f—king hippies.

And you, Joe, can slap at them and feel good about that. Just like you did when we invaded Iraq. Nothing makes you more welcome at the club than slapping the DFH’s.

What would your grandfather have said, Joe?

Here’s something that adds a bit of perspective to the Senate’s decision to compromise by dropping the public option: The new CNN poll’s internals show that the public option is more popular than the Senate health care proposal by a whopping 17 point difference.
.
The poll finds that only 36% favor the Senate proposal, versus 61% who oppose it.
.
By contrast, the poll finds that 53% favor the public option, versus 46% who oppose it.
.
Thirty-six percent for the Senate bill. Fifty-three percent for the public option.
.
It would be hard to find a clearer expression of how badly the need for a supermajority in the Senate is perverting democracy.

The Plum Line, 12/10/09

There are millions of poor people who have no health insurance … who will be subsidized to buy health insurance and able to receive both preventive and chronic care for the first time if this imperfect bill passes. This is a massive move toward progressivity, an enormous new entitlement for the working poor. The opposition by Republicans was no surprise, nor was the chicanery of a few Democratic conservatives in the Senate, but I’m just dumbstruck by those on the left who would oppose this for whatever ideological fetishes they imagine are being traduced. It is simply amazing and absolutely disgraceful. Grow up.

This has been another episode of IOKIYAR sponsored by Petulant Centrist Sycophant Theatre.

You had me at “traduced.”

Silver’s last two of his 20 questions are pretty pertinent. Yes, neck-wringing is high on the list.

“we’ll patch it up later”
.
This will never happen. Please note this for the record. Once this disaster passes the democrats and mainly Obama will wash their hands of any other type of reform measures regarding health care. Not because it would be too difficult for them to follow up, but simply because they have no interest in doing so. Its time for progressive independants, liberals and democrats to face this fact.
.
There has to be some kind of penalty for Obama’s desire to abandon his base’s interest for the corporate and centrist interest on issue after issue and not just health care.

At this point in the game the only reason to pass something is for BHO to be able to say he passed something.

Why progressives would do that for him is anyone’s guess.

Blow it up.

I guess Joe does not quite get that the internet tubes are very vast. This ain’t the only blog in town chump.

No, I really don’t want to blow it up. The results are good. But I really want Joe and the rest of the media to explain to me why it’s satisfying to them that the net result is something that isn’t as good for working Americans.

Why is that good? Can you tell us, Joe Klein?

It is always the same – look at the stimulus. We got the bill, but only after it had fewer benefits for working people and more tax cuts for the rich. And Democratic senators made sure that that was the outcome – they were extortionists for the rich.

But for some reason, the media doesn’t see the extortion play. They see some morality play where the Kent State hippies get shot again – and by Gawd they deserved it!

And the money keeps rolling in.

I know I’m late to the game but JK in comments below is threatening to (what? he’s not clear) change commenting policies.

I really want to see that dialogue expanded. Maybe MS and KT could join in.

The Left-Blogosphere Melts Down

The title itself is an example of reeking redundancy.

The stimulus bill is a very good example. Bad policy because of concession after concession and bad politics.
.
How is that different from this?
.
JK and others can frame it as a “They want the whole loaf” when really we just want a decent loaf.
.
Start over and if that ends up being politically painful then perhaps everyone will have a voice next time.

Seems more and more people need to “grow up”
.
The NBC/Wall Street Journal poll coming out later today will show opposition to the health care bill growing — mainly from disappointed liberals, who are very much disappointed to see the public option getting thrown out.

The poll has 47% saying the Obama health care plan is a bad idea, to only 32% who say it’s a good idea.

Chuck Todd writes on Twitter: “Most of the movement on the ‘bad idea’ comes from some of the president’s core support groups, folks upset about lost public option.” He also writes: “Still, large majorities of the president’s core support groups believe his plan is a ‘good idea,’ but the margins have shrunk.”

In addition, 44% now say it’s better to not pass this bill — seemingly a large bloc of conservatives, plus some liberals — to 41% who say it’s better that something pass: “First time NBC-WSJ poll had that upside down.”

They better pass this thing quick. Because those numbers are going to get a lot worse real quick.

I’ll contact my senators. Amy Klobuchar will do as she is told but Franken I have some hope for.

I have actively witnessed the change from a part “Medicaid” type coverage part private insurance coverage HC system in the Netherlands change to afully privatised system. The individual mandate is a core part of the system to keep coverage “affordable”. However “affordable” is a relative term and subjective.

We paid combined roughly 4000 – 5000 euro (6000-7500 US$) into the system per year for a median coverage (incl deductibles and yearly caps) for 2 adults which was a considerable raise compared to before the privatisation. Premiums in the first 2 years actualy grew with 25% or more and finally the government had to step in again in order to lower the premiums a bit.

The Dutch system is far from perfect, GP’s have incentives to actually not refer patients to specialists in order to control costs, and premiums are still high. I would not point to the Dutch system as an example of how to achieve the goals.

Your conclusion that the senate version falls short of the Dutch therefore it is not bad is therefore in my HO not correct.

They better pass this thing quick. Because the bill is going to get a lot worse real quick.

Fixed. Surely no one thinks that the Republicans and Holy Joe are done neutering this thing, the longer Dems let them move the goalposts..

“Surely no one thinks that the Republicans and Holy Joe are done neutering this thing, the longer Dems let them move the goalposts.”
.
Ahh, Joe does.

Arbitrary,
.
Exactly!

The stock market tells you everything you need to know about who benefits from the current situation on the health care debate.

Apparently, Joe can add The Krug to his list:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/illusions-and-bitterness/

“A lot of people seem shocked to find that he’s not the transformative figure of their imaginations. Can I say I told you so?” Krugman from the link.
.
I really have had it with that meme.
.
Maybe, just maybe, people have informed themselves and have come to the conclusion that this is nothing more than a gift to the Insurance Industry.
.
It’s not about Joe Lieberman predictably screwing things up or BHO being absent.
.
It is about bad law.
.
Blow this thing up.

A “meltdown” must be the new description for a liberal who refuses to cashier every last one of his or her principles.

It’s looking more and more like the complete bankruptcy of the health system will be the only thing that leads to real reform, not the phony “liberal” in power now. Calling Obama a Liberal may be the biggest lie the right-wing media has told yet.

Me too Paul! That meme drives me ape-sh!t. I said so just the other day, albeit about nat. security:
.
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/12/13/whats-a-national-security-conservative-to-do-with-barack-obama/
.
It’s disappointing to see Krug paint w/such a wide brush. I guess it’s tempting to play the knowing pundit, lording over the naive rubes. There are indeed starry-eyed folks who felt the way he describes (and whom GG or Taibbi rightly excoriate as sheep/not citizens) but Krug takes it to another level, saying any progressive who opposes this bill is a rube.
.
That said, I’m unsure if he’s wrong. While Dean or Sanders or Feingold has my support, at the same time, I think the notion that this bill is going to get any better after a) passage or b) scuttling is highly unlikely. I think, god help you guys, this is the most the American gov’t is capable of, on THE seminal issue of the day. [Side note, the house passed with token opposition a 600$ billion defense bill today!]
.
All that said, regardless of the result, I think we can all agree that Joe Klein is a motherf@cker

More sleep! Paul, I just went to close my other window, where I’d tracked down/copied that link, and only then saw that you’d replied in real time. Screaming babies!

“I really have had it with that meme.”
.
Likewise. Beltway “centrist” gasbags are probably the only people stupid or naive enough to have ever believed the “transformative” bi-partisan Kumbaya crap. Liberals never thought for a moment that “conservatives” would ever earnestly work in the public interest, it’s just not how they roll. And Obama taught liberals one lesson after another, from FISA to FOIA, about his valueless pragmatism. This is just one more unwise and unnecessary betrayal that represents the last straw for many of us.

With the mandate in but the public option out wouldn’t the bill have to include cancellation of the insurance industry’s anti-trust exemption? Not canceling the exemption didn’t make much sense before but it makes even less sense now. If the industry has no competition from the public option and it gets to keep its anti-trust exemption there doesn’t seem to be anything left to protect consumers from a gouging that they can’t avoid.

“All that said, regardless of the result, I think we can all agree that Joe Klein is a motherf@cker”
.
Race to see who JK “punishes” first! What a stereotype he is. Thin-skinned blowhard. Dime a dozen.
.
“Screaming babies!” Blaming it on the innocent? Shame!
.
On point – If it is the “most the American gov’t is capable of” (and kryptik1 is right, this will only get worse) then I must say again-blow this up.
.
The, legitimate and deserved, blowback to passing and signing this bill will be long lasting.

I’m slightly more inclined to go with Ezra Klein and Jonathan Cohn on this, but I easily understand why folks are pissed, and I think the bill will only get us treading water – it won’t keep us from drowning indefinitely.
.
That being said:
.
Grow up.
.
Or else what, Klein? You’ll post our email addresses on the blog?

The problem you seem to forget is that the stimulus would not have passed had those concessions not been made. There wasn’t any wiggle room. And the HCR bill will not pass if it does not satisfy the conservative democrats and Joe Lieberman. Everyone seems to think we have these monster majorities, but we don’t.

If you believe that no bill is better than what’s being considered, that’s a fair opinion, but the idea that Reid could bring a bill with the public option to the floor for a cloture vote and get it through is wishful thinking.

The choice is clearly between a watered-down bill and nothing, and all the complaining about the dysfunctionality of the Senate doesn’t change that.

Hey Joe, what meltdown? This is called “democracy”. It’s the new “town hall” or village square. I think we can do better than this bill, but I’m more than happy to listen to why it should be passed in it’s current (10:00 PM edition) state. There have been some good postings on BOTH sides. This is debate, a profusion of good (and bad) comments all over the blogosphere. Ezra has some good points but so does Markos. Sit back and read some of the blogs, you might learn something.

I am off to the side too, my mouth agape at the vehemence of the reaction to the post. I watched E. Klein on Charlie Rose last night and he seemed to make sense at the time. I don’t know, but obviously those of a slightly more leftist bent than I perhaps, do seem to know.

Paul, you’re probably right. Most of the folks who’ve earned my respect over the years agree with you.
.
But if there are benefits in this bill, however limited, a part of me thinks its passage is better than failure. In fact, I’m reminded of the Nader-Gore thing. I can (& did) vote for Gore, b/c he was the better choice of the two, or I could have vainly ticked Nader. In this case, if I were a Senator Feingold, for instance, I could vote against the bill, denying whatever tepid help it affords Americans, all the while knowing that a better/more progressive bill is never going to be more likely. Or I can hold my nose and take the best we can get. Something vs. nothing, I guess.
.
But this will never mean that the passage of this bill is a victory for anyone (other than the GOP who will use it as a hammer against dems for decades), least of all for our spineless f’ing president who couldn’t articulate his convictions, if they do in fact exist, at gunpoint.
.
Mind you, this from the guy who thinks the climactic scene of Fight Club, where everything is literally blown up, is the best tack.

It’s beyond ironic that this post comes mere days after your latest take on Glenn Greenwald’s work. Those who disagree with Greenwald are prostitutes and corporate shills. Those who disagree with Joe Klein need to grow up. At least we know you’re no holier than anybody else.
.
Not that I defend swearing. This is the internet, folks. Lets try to keep it clean.
.
The issue with the individual mandate is that it’s a giveaway which originally seemed to be made in exchange for something else. Now, it’s unclear what it is that insurance companies need to be compensated for, since everything they object to has been dropped from the bill. The idea that insurance companies need this as repayment for the ban on denial of coverage for previous conditions is ludicrous, the legislature has the right to end monstrous business practices without compensating those who can no longer enrich themselves through them. The benefits are real, but it’s a lopsided bargain.
.
Extending insurance to millions of the uninsured is a great thing. Expanding insurance coverage while doing nothing to bring down costs is going lead to big big trouble. We’re buying more policies while doing little to address the bloated and still increasing cost of coverage. If you believe this is just the first step, and that a future step will include meaningful cost controls, tell me how that next step’s political fortunes will be any different from what we’re seeing now.
.
People are saying no President will ever take this up again if no bill is passed, but if this bill is all this massively popular President, with majorities in both houses, can muster, why would a future president risk the effort? This is likely the only chance for real reform we’ll see in any of our lifetimes, and it really doesn’t feel like we’re getting much out of it.

Oregon JC:

Mind you, this from the guy who thinks the climactic scene of Fight Club, where everything is literally blown up, is the best tack.

Damn, I love reading your posts.

Very well said.

Anyone who does not like this bill should consider moving to Israel where healthcare is both universal and free.

Of course it is funded by the American taxpayer…………

Well, it’s weird, I’m one of the leftiest of the lefties here, but I’m not extremely angry about this.
.
I think I got through the angry phase back in October and came to realize that America is really going to have to eat a lot of sh*t in a crisis before we start agitating seriously for change.
.
Even if they avert the health care crisis, there’s another half dozen crises lined up after it:
The environment
Our education system
Disparities in wealth distribution
Unhinged Wall Street
Weakened manufacturing base
Two wars
Iran (meaning, if we start a war with them)
Infrastructure
Defunct judicial system
.
In other words: Choose your poison, motherf–kers.

the climactic scene of Fight Club, where everything is literally blown up, is the best tack.
.
Seconded.

BILL MOYERS: This is one reason you are seen as a threat to other people. People at the top, because your message, like King’s message, goes to a fundamental allocation of power in America, right?

HOWARD ZINN: Yeah, that is very troublesome for people at the top. They’re willing to let people think about mild reforms and little changes, and incremental changes, but they don’t want people to think that we could actually transform this country into a peaceful country, that we no longer have to be a super military power. They don’t want to think that way because it’s profitable for certain interests in this country to carry on war, to have military bases in 100 countries, to have a $600 billion military budget. That makes a lot of money for certain people. But it leaves the rest of the country behind.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/12112009/transcript2.html

I will note that the breakdown that Joe observes among the non-right-wing about the present Senate health care reform legibortion is basically between those who, in 2002, were right about the illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq (i.e., those who opposed it because the reasons given by the Bush administration were clearly false) and those who were wrong about it.

Those who were right in 2002 oppose this legibortion, and those who were wrong in 2002 support it.

I think I’ll stick with those who were right in 2002. It seems to me that, as a result of both their intelligence and intuitive ability, history tends to prove them right again and again, to prove those who were wrong in 2002 (like Joe, for instance) wrong again and again.

I will note that the breakdown that Joe observes among the non-right-wing about the present Senate health care reform legibortion is basically between those who, in 2002, were right about the illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq (i.e., those who opposed it because the reasons given by the Bush administration were clearly false) and those who were wrong about it.

Those who were right in 2002 oppose this legibortion, and those who were wrong in 2002 support it.

I think I’ll stick with those who were right in 2002. It seems to me that, as a result of both their intelligence and intuitive ability, history tends to prove them right again and again, and to prove those who were wrong in 2002 (like Joe, for instance) wrong again and again.

Perhaps, more to the point:

Potter also emphasized the practice known as “purging.” This is where insurers rid themselves of unprofitable accounts by slapping them with “intentionally unrealistic rate increases.” One famous example came when Cigna decided to drive the Entertainment Industry Group Insurance Trust in California and New Jersey off of its books. It hit them with a rate increase that would have left some family plans costing more than $44,000 a year, and it gave them three months to come up with the cash.
.
The issue isn’t that insurance companies are evil. It’s that they need to be profitable. They have a fiduciary responsibility to maximize profit for shareholders. And as Potter explains, he’s watched an insurer’s stock price fall by more than 20 percent in a single day because the first-quarter medical-loss ratio had increased from 77.9 percent to 79.4 percent.

Nothing in proposed Senate legislation changes this dynamic. It may slightly change the ways health insurance corporations maximize profit for shareholders but it will never change the essential mission to say, providing the most efficacious and cost-effective health care to the citizens of the United States.
.
It’s a corporate giveaway of gargantuan proportions and another smooth slice from our civil liberties, pure and simple.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/06/the_truth_about_the_insurance.html

I’m trying like hell to care if HCR fails, but I don’t. Not even Krugman and JMM can make me care. I recognize HCR may still be a modest improvement; I just don’t have another compromise left in these bones.

It’s hard to get jazzed about forcing people to buy bad insurance from industry that raped the healthcare system in the first place. And, a part of me really looks forward to rattling the Village from sucking up for Tea Party affection to notice we’re around.

I hear you Joe, but I think it is the GOP that needs to grow up.

We want what works

Jokeline HATES it when The Little People dare to talk back to The Village Elders.

The more I read what people are writing about this, the more it fries me. From Ezra Klein:
.
“Pick your favorite system. Socialized medicine in Britain. Single-payer in Canada. Multi-payer with a government floor in France. Private plans with heavy public regulation in Sweden, Germany and elsewhere. None of these plans are “voluntary.”"
.
None of those plans cost even close to as much as what Americans are going to be forced to buy, either. We don’t have those plans. That’s precisely why people are opposed to paying for those plans.
.
All of those countries have a system in place to keep costs reasonable. Universal coverage may be necessary in these other, functional systems, but it clearly isn’t necessary in our current mess of a healthcare system, as plainly evinced by the mountainous profits insurance companies have been collecting year after year while a significant portion of the population went without coverage. Insurance companies are giving up NOTHING which would, without the influx of cash from universal coverage, break their backs. To put it in the terms of Ezra Klein’s example, there’s no need to force the triathlete to buy coverage if the insurer is already reaping substantial profits off diabetics. If the mandate is necessary in countries with single-payer, I’ll agree with the mandate when single-payer is on the table.

“The problem you seem to forget is that the stimulus would not have passed had those concessions not been made” We will never know, will we?
.
“And the HCR bill will not pass if it does not satisfy the conservative democrats and Joe Lieberman” We will never know, will we?
.
“the idea that Reid could bring a bill with the public option to the floor for a cloture vote and get it through is wishful thinking.” We will never know, will we?
.
Never getting to the point of forcing Democrats to filibuster their party’s president’s signature bill was idiotic.
.
Heck I don’t even believe Lieberman would have. Luckily for Lieberman Democrats are the easiest group to bluff on the planet.

Klein and the rest of the right-wing media have been trying to kill the public option for months now. Now that they have their victory they also expect real liberals to be happy about it and if we are not, insults are all they have to offer. The corporate whores, or “centrists,” are the only people allowed to have a firm position on any issue that they refuse to compromise on.

First and foremost, any statement that has “Left” and “Meltdown” in it is a good thing!
.
With that said, don’t you all think it is time that this specific bill is scrapped, and we now negotiate with bipartisan support a REAL health care reform bill?
.
Or as it has been said many many times, is the only thing this is about is hanging a “Mission Accomplished” banner behind Obama when he announces passage of a Democrat health care reform plan?
.
If this bill passes, that is all that this means. A Bush-like “Mission Accomplished” sign, which the American public knows is not real reform, but bogus claims by the Democrat Leadership.

Palin,

do you say the same things to the guys at Kos, at FDL and the increasingly clownish GG? the namecalling there is just absurd.

I am always amazed by interpretation of events here. When conservatives were standing up for their principles at the Town Hall meetings this summer, they were nut jobs, terrorists and unpatriotic. When the left goes through a similar stage, it is Democracy.

It would be funny if it weren’t for the fact that is the what the left believes.

homer,
.
I only post here, so, no, I don’t say anything to those folks.
.
But, then, I don;t think they have so-called leaders of the pundit class running the show at their joints, either.

Rustydog:

If this bill passes, that is all that this means. A Bush-like “Mission Accomplished” sign, which the American public knows is not real reform, but bogus claims by the Democrat Leadership.

Given that you’re a movement conservative, thank you for the intellectual honesty it took for you to say that.

I have been reading both pro and con on the HCR bill.
.
I finally made up my mind based on the fact, if JOKELINE is for it, it probably is a bad bill that should be defeated.

Jay Rockefeller is totally wrong in what he says in his comments. An individual mandate without controls on the costs is no help at all.
Jay said he would not vote for a bill that didn’t have a public option — and now he has flip-flopped on his position.
This bill, as currently proposed, is a bad bill, is a giveaway to the health insurance companies, and should not be allowed to pass.
Any bill that goes for the Prez’s signature should tightly regulate the industry, true reform, not symbolic crumbs thrown to the millions who need help now.

[...] Time’s Joe Klein gets passionate about emerging liberal opposition: “The opposition by Republicans was no surprise, nor was the chicanery of a few Democratic conservatives in the Senate, but I’m just dumbstruck by those on the left who would oppose this for whatever ideological fetishes they imagine are being traduced. It is simply amazing and absolutely disgraceful. Grow up.”  In a separate post, he says the events “calls into question the ability of the Democratic Party to govern this country.” Nate Silver has “20 Questions for Bill Killers,” including: “1. Over the medium term, how many other opportunities will exist to provide in excess of $100 billion per year in public subsidies to poor and sick people? 3. Where is the evidence that the plan, as constructed, would substantially increase insurance industry profit margins, particularly when it is funded in part via a tax on insurers? 9. If the idea is to wait for a complete meltdown of the health care system, how likely is it that our country will respond to such a crisis in a rational fashion? How have we tended to respond to such crises in the past?”   Health historian Paul Starr, in a way predicting the coming fire, penned a web-only piece in the American Prospect in which he argued progressives should support the Senate’s health overhaul bill: “The moment of decision on health-care reform is arriving for progressives in Congress. Some of them have insisted they will refuse to vote for any bill without a public option, and that is now the only bill that has any chance of passing. If they hold to their position, the most significant social reform on behalf of low-income Americans in 40 years will go down to defeat.” As the melee unfolds on the left, commentators on the right continue to be pleased with the defections. [...]

I’m appalled that you don’t get it, Joe. The issue is not, has not, and never will be providing health insurance (and health care) for the poor.

I’m all for a universal mandate.

I’m all for health care reform.

I’m not for a bill that creates a system that allows health insurance companies to profit at the expense of everyone else.

Yet, I too, reluctantly and with a heavy heart, support the bill. Because it will provide health care for everyone. Unfortunately, because of folks like you, Joe, the American people will suffer as a result. We’ll pay more, health insurance companies will get richer and richer, and there will be no competition in the health care industry.

Way to Go, Congress! You really represented the people on that one!

(For my own take on how to fix the health care system, I wrote about the solution on my blog: http://www.whatchannelareyouwatching.com/archives/492)

Shorter JoeKlein

You dirty fucking hippies should just grovel on your backs.

Here’s what the abstract to a study published last year in the Journal of Health Politics had to say about the Dutch health care system so beloved by Ezra Klein and Jonathan Cohn (a system I might add that has quite a few features that make it preferable to what is now projected to be in the Senate bill):

An Experiment with Regulated Competition and Individual Mandates for Universal Health Care: The New Dutch Health Insurance System

Pauline Vaillancourt Rosenau
University of Texas, Houston
Christiaan J. Lako 
Radboud
University Nijmegen, the Netherlands

The 2006 Enthoven-inspired Dutch health insurance reform, based on regulated competition with a mandate for individuals to purchase insurance, will interest U.S. policy makers who seek universal coverage. This ongoing experiment includes guaranteed issue, price competition for a standardized basic benefits package, community rating, sliding-scale income-based subsidies for patients, and risk equalization for insurers. Our assessment of the first two years is based on Dutch Central Bank statistics, national opinion polls, consumer surveys, and qualitative interviews with policy makers. The first lesson for the United States is that the new Dutch health insurance model may not control costs. To date, consumer premiums are increasing, and insurance companies report large losses on the basic policies. Second, regulated competition is unlikely to make voters/citizens happy; public satisfaction is not high, and perceived quality is down. Third, consumers may not behave as economic models predict, remaining responsive to price incentives. Finally, policy makers should not underestimate the opposition from health care providers who define their profession as more than simply a job. If regulated competition with individual mandates performs poorly in auspicious circumstances such as the Netherlands, how will this model fare in the United States, where access, quality, and cost challenges are even greater? Might the assumptions of economic theory not apply in the health sector?

http://jhppl.dukejournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/33/6/1031

1. Here’s Marcy’s analysis at FDL:

it would still leave a family of four that had experienced a significant health care event with just $13,620 to pay for everything besides food, housing, health care, and income taxes.

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/12/16/the-mybarackobamatax/

2. I’m pleased to see that Nate Silver has been adopted by access bloggers. Here are two takedowns by people who care about health care issues instead of optics and inside baseball:

http://www.ianwelsh.net/20-answers-on-why-the-health-care-bill-needs-to-die-for-nate-silver/

http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/16/answering-nate-silvers-20-questions-on-killing-the-senate-bill/

[...] John Klein’s shitty blog The Left-Blogosphere Melts Down Posted by Joe Klein Wednesday, December 16, 2009 at 4:42 pm 101 Comments • Trackback (1) • Related Topics: health care [...]

Speaking of grown-ups:

http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2009/08/no-wait-i-know-this-one-answer-to-who.html

We were off and running. He then said that its true the fringe republicans were “crazy” but perhaps no crazier than the “crazy left” under Bush. I thought he meant the “truthers” so I said “name me one person in congress or the Senate who was as crazy on any topic as these Republican senators and Congressmen who sign on to the birther and deather stuff are now?” Evading this question he said “well, Glenn Greenwald is crazy—he’s a civil liberties absolutist.” Now, me, I come from a long line of civil liberties absolutists so I said “I admire Glenn Greenwald’s work immensley but it must be very embarrassing for you, of course, because he’s been eating your lunch for years.” (!) I think this must be something of a sore point for him. He began shrieking “Glenn Greenwald is EVIL! EVILl!..do you know what he did? He “sicced” his blog readers on my EDITOR and she was going through a DIVORCE at the time.” Really? I said, politely, that was very wrong, if it happened.
“We kept it very quiet” he said, backing off the claim of any real harm and, as a twofer, managing to imply that only those “in the know” had been kept informed.

[...] the past couple of days, Obama administration officials, the Villagers and the self proclaimed creative class new Villagers have declared that we are either insane or [...]

Joe, does it bother you at all to know that a lot of Americans, including some long-time Republicans such as I, figure that if we’ve pissed you off, we must be doing something right?

Does it bother you at all that you are so consistently wrong on the facts, wrong on your analysis and wrong understanding our criticism (meaning that at a very basic level you cannot understand what some generally ordinary people are saying)? Does that get to you even a little bit, the fact that I could pick two dozen obscure bloggers almost at random who could do your job better than you do it?

Yeah, I thought not. And that is why Time is not long for this world. As a former journalist, I hate that, but I sure can’t say you didn’t have it coming.

I am one of the uninsured and I’m pretty tired of seeing this whole “if you oppose this bill then you don’t care about uninsured Americans !!!!!’ baloney. I *AM* one of those uninsured Americans that you say you care so much about–I am self-employed and have no health care coverage at all whatsoever. So you can take your ivory-tower smug guilt-trip and stuff it up your privileged little behind. Don’t you DARE use me as an excuse for this sorry bill.

This bill DOESN’T help me. It HURTS me. It forces me to spend money that I don’t have to buy junk insurance that doesn’t give me any more care than I have now without any insurance at all — and it fines me if I refuse to pay for it. I am better off without it than I am with it. It’s like ending hunger in the US by simply passing a law forcing everyone to buy food, or ending the housing problem simply by passing a law forcing everyone to buy a house — and penalizing those who don’t. It just pushes me deeper in the hole.

Indeed, it seems to me that the rush to pass this bill, in its current garbage form, now has far more to do with political considerations of salvaging something, ANYTHING, from this trainwreck, simply to avoid making Obama look like a failure, than it does for actually helping any uninsured Americans.

Want to help me? Then pass something that lets me get better care at a lower price.This bill does no such thing.

[...] no worries, cheerleaders, you’ll get your bill and the perfect will not be the enemy of the good. It will probably [...]

[...] but to demonize and personally discredit, the bill’s progressive critics as insane, crazy, childish, idiotic and drugged-out, Naderite, purist liars who — we now learn today — are the [...]

[...] but to demonize and personally discredit, the bill’s progressive critics as insane, crazy, childish, idiotic and drugged-out, Naderite, purist liars who — we now learn today — are the [...]

[...] progressive critics as insane [David Axelrod], crazy [Five-Thirty-Eight's Nate Silver], childish [Time's Joe Klein], idiotic and drugged-out, [CNBC "reporter" John Harwood] Naderite, purist [TPM's [...]

[...] “hallucinogenic drugs,” and Time’s Joe Klein exhorted them (once again) to “grow up.” From the other side, MSNBC’s Dylan Ratigan blasted liberal reform-bill backer Rep. [...]