Who Should Pay for Health Care Reform – the Rich or the Richly Insured?

Senators Sherrod Brown, Bernie Sanders and Al Franken just introduced an amendment to the Senate health reform legislation that will make the unions happy. They proposed eliminating the bill’s tax on so-called “Cadillac health plans” and replacing it with a new tax on immensely rich Americans. The new tax would be 5.4% and would apply to individuals earning more than $2.4 million per year. The Senate bill as it’s currently written would instead apply a 40% tax on health insurance plans that cost more than $8,500 for families and $23,000 for families. (Only the excess amount would be taxed.) The changed called for by the three senators would bring the Senate bill more in line with the House reform bill, which would impose a 5.4% tax on individual income over $500,000.

I know – lots of numbers and detail and wonk. Here’s the central point of debate in all this. Is it better to pay for health care reform on the backs of rich Americans or on the backs of Americans with generous health insurance plans?

There are other savings and revenue-generating provisions in Democratic health reform bills to offset spending, but taxing high-cost insurance is a major one. Republicans and some Democrats have been criticizing the Cadillac tax as one that will unfairly tax middle class Americans. (Remember the Obama campaign promise that he wouldn’t raise taxes on individuals making $250,000 or less? Republicans certainly do.) As Brown, Franken and Sanders well know, municipal and manufacturing union members – i.e. members of the middle class – make up a huge portion of those who could get snagged in the Cadillac tax net. (Many unions have, in recent years, negotiated for more expensive health plans instead of higher wages.) The Congressional Budget Office has estimated that 19% of employer-sponsored health plans could be subject to this tax three years after it goes into effect. Taxing rich Americans is an easier sell and would affect few pocketbooks. But to frame the debate just in these terms misses the other intended effect of the Cadillac tax, which is to lower health care spending.

Many health care economists studying the legislation currently on the table cite the Cadillac tax as one of the few provisions most likely to bend the cost curve. They say that having the Cadillac tax looming will lead employers to cut back on price of the insurance plans they offer to employees. Employers who do this quickly enough – the Cadillac tax wouldn’t kick in until 2013 – would never see their health plans hit the $8,500 and $23,000 limit. (According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, the average premium for employer-sponsored coverage for individuals and families in 2009 was were $4,824 and $13,375 respectively.)

Those with Cadillac health plans generally don’t have any incentive to look for efficient and cost-effective care. They shell out only tiny co-pays for doctor visits, can often see any provider they like and can receive unlimited benefits. Sounds great, right? Well yes – on a personal basis – it is. But economists know that when people don’t have any “skin in the game,” i.e. incentive to make financially prudent health care decisions, spending gets out of control. While it may sound cold to say that people should make some health care decisions based on cost, this is one of the real purposes behind health reform that proponents don’t spend a lot of time talking about. (Here’s an article I wrote over the summer when the idea of the Cadillac tax was first proposed.)

According to a Senate aide, the original Brown-Sanders-Franken amendment would have mirrored the House provision to only tax Americans earning more than $500,000 per year, but was tweaked to exactly replace the amount generated by the Cadillac tax – $129 billion over 10 years. So the hole created by eliminating the Cadillac tax would be filled, but how a new tax on rich people will help motivate a society to spend less on health care is still not clear.

Related Topics: al franken, bernie sanders, cadillac tax, sherrod brown, Congress, Democratic Party, Health Care, Republican Party, Senate
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  • Matt

    Wonder how likely this amendment will actually hold up in negotiations with moderates. And the White House may even get involved given some of their past objections to Cadillac plans.

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • deconstructiva

    Kate, are senators looking at other tax options instead of these you’ve mentioned? (Monty Python once did a skit of finding a new tax. They did: the “tax on thingy”, the one pleasure not yet taxed. How do you collect that tax? But I digress.)
    .
    For example, the SS portion of FICA has a max. income limit. What if the upper limit is eliminated and everyone regardless of income pays the same flat rate, only part of the extra revenue goes to HC? And yes, this means the rich pay more, deal with it already. But are you hearing other ideas on this, Kate? Thanks for your excellent posts and your thoughts.

  • gysgt213

    “but how a new tax on rich people will help motivate a society to spend less on health care is still not clear.”
    .
    Katie-How about health care costs are less in the first place? Just a thought.

  • stuartzechman

    Kate Pickert:

    But economists know that when people don’t have any “skin in the game,” i.e. incentive to make financially prudent health care decisions, spending gets out of control.

    Really?
    .
    Is that why the cost of health care in the United States is twice that of the average OECD country?
    .
    What if health care prices were actually in line with what the rest of the world pays?
    .
    Wouldn’t that change “economists”‘ view of things, if that cost information was actually available?

    While it may sound cold to say that people should make some health care decisions based on cost, this is one of the real purposes behind health reform that proponents don’t spend a lot of time talking about.

    Yes, proponents of health care reform don’t spend a lot of time talking about how, in the system they propose, people should decide between having a mammogram at age 30 or not based on cost. In fact, nobody has said a word about the “real purposes behind health care reform” that suggests that self-rationing is the cure for America’s health care ills.
    .
    I’d sure love to know exactly how you divined “real purposes behind health care reform”, Kate Pickert. And here I’d thought that the whole point of the thing was to generate more profit for various politically powerful industries!
    .
    While it might sound cold to say this, Kate Pickert, the fact that the United States has the highest health care costs in the developed world is one of the important pieces of knowledge that journalists don’t spend a lot of time talking about. It sounds cold because it suggests a reason why so many in your line of work are rapidly becoming unemployed, and will have to decide whether or not they can really afford that mammogram –just like economists imagine that they should.
    .
    Would it be cold of me to suggest that your reporting on this issue might benefit from the perspective of someone who has “skin in the game”, Kate Pickert?

  • deconstructiva

    …such as limiting fee for service?

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    Drop healthcare reform entirely. Nothing but a big diversion, anyway. We need jobs, jobs, jobs. Taxing the rich is a sure way to stifle that, but what would you expect from a clown troop such as Franken and co.

  • http://knaymon92.wordpress.com/2009/12/11/health-care-taxes-unfair/ Health Care Taxes: Unfair? « american government

    [...] However, health care costs are still dramatically rising, which is something the Cadillac (but not the 5.4% tax) could tend to. The Cadillac tax would tax 40% on plans that cost more than $8,500 for individuals and $23,000 for families – and it would only tax the excess amount. With a system like this, employers would have to cut back on plans for their employees. But the benefits could be good: Americans would spend less on health care, and in 10 years, the plan would generate $129 billion – although the Brown/Sanders/Franken amendment was tweaked to do the exact same thing sans the spending less. I still think the amendment is a better idea, because the middle class shouldn’t be taxed as much since Obama promised no raise in taxes for those incomes under $250,000. We’ll just have to see…. [...]

  • shepherdwong

    “While it may sound cold to say that people should make some health care decisions based on cost, this is one of the real purposes behind health reform that proponents don’t spend a lot of time talking about.”
    .
    I submit that if people are willing to eat, drink and smoke themselves into disease (they are), I doubt that marginally more expensive health care plans are going to change those behaviors very much (they aren’t) and seriously bend the overall cost curve. Our lifestyle problems simply aren’t going to be addressed very well by this sort of legislation because it does nothing to address what’s driving cost: epidemic obesity and co-morbid disease. Let’s get everyone covered “on the backs” of the uber-wealthy (they won’t miss it and the politics are lousy right now for taxing health care plans) and then get to reforming the heath care model from one about treating disease to one about preventing disease. And if we’re serious about bending the health care cost curve, it will mean taking on the giant food and aggro-businesses next.

  • ilikechips

    The Goracle caught lying again..what a scam. but ovecourse no one from the liberal MSM dare questions Gore..

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/copenhagen/article6956783.ece

  • destor23

    This is such BS. People who have insurance have skin in the game by definition — it’s in the premiums they pay. We should be encouraging more not fewer Cadillac plans. The problem is not that people are irresponsible health care spenders it’s that people with insurance are charged too much for too little in return.

  • formerlyjames

    I can’t keep track of the various provisions and proposals in health care reform, and I don’t think anybody does. A massive mysterious income tax code is being concocted even before anything is passed.
    .
    And what does no help for our enlightenment are catch phrases like “Cadillac tax” and rich versus poor. I am no more informed after this than I was before.
    .
    This thing has become so emotionally charged, and there is so much propaganda and so little valid information, that I have stopped paying attention. I’ll just have to live with whatever the special interests and political zealots come up with. isn’t that about how things work anyway?

  • apollyon07

    Would this tax go into effect in 2013, when the health reform is scheduled to go into effect (if passed)?
    .
    Because I can’t see how anyone with a basic understanding of economics could argue for raising taxes on the most (economically) productive members of society during a recession.

  • Cliff

    the most (economically) productive members of society
    .
    Who would those be, then?

  • slowp

    Kate -

    I know you’re just repeating something that’s been said a million times, but it’s total hogwash. This is how it works: You go to the doctor, he tells you to get a test and you get it.
    .
    Period.
    .
    You, the patient, are not competent to make the decision not to get the test, and you’re not going to ask the doctor, “Hey, gee, I’d like extra tests.” (If you — you personally — know someone who’s gone to the doctor and asked for unrecommended tests, I’ll buy you dinner.)
    .
    Healthcare in the US is twice as expensive as the rest of the world, but it’s not because patients are treatment hogs scheming to spend their free time getting unnecessary tests. And unless they’re doctors, they not competent to make their own treatment decisions.
    .
    No amount of “skin in the game” is ever gonna change that.

  • palininatowel

    Every time I read the argument you present here:

    While it may sound cold to say that people should make some health care decisions based on cost, this is one of the real purposes behind health reform that proponents don’t spend a lot of time talking about.

    … I have to wonder why you or so many others who make this argument never consider the other side of the coin.

    Having worked on this issue in a variety of contexts over the past 15 years, I can tell you that one of the biggest obstacles to having consumers make “informed choices” about where to spend their health care dollars is the dearth of information on the topic in formats that are both understandable and usable for the general public.

    “Buying” health care is not like buying a toaster or a new car. You can’t search online review sites or look at Consumer Reports and know if it is a worthwhile endeavor for you to get a colonoscopy, or what facility is the best one to use for a colonoscopy.

    There are several reasons why it is so difficult to find useful health care information in useful formats:

    1. The AMA is not in favor of such efforts to provide data on doctors.

    2. Hospital organizations are not in favor of sharing such information.

    3. Even when the information is made available to “health care consumers,” the consumers don’t know what to make of it or what to do with it.

    An effort to create “informed health care consumers” has been ongoing for more than a decade. Numerous companies have formed to data mine everything from success rates for heart surgeries to best places to go to get particular cancer treatments.

    But, in general, the information has been unfathomable to most consumers who rely on the advice of doctors — if said consumers are lucky enough to have coverage and be able to afford doctors.

    So this “market forces” argument doesn’t really work in health care, and I don’t think it’s going to work any time soon.

  • FlownOver

    All this theoretical, philosophical debate misses the real point – will Joe Lieberman let it happen?

    Seriously, if nothing else comes out of all this at least Lieberman must lose his chairmanship. Damned evil troll.

  • palininatowel

    Rahm Emanuel and Joe Lieberman are old, corporate-ass-kissing buddies from their DLC days.
    .
    I didn’t like Hillary CLinton as a candidate because she surrounded herself with her husband’s old DLC gang including scumbuckets like Lanny Davis.
    .
    Ends up, Obama and Clinton were just two sides of the same coin. Emanuel is a corporate lackey from way, way back.

  • http://www.ghostnote.com Cookie Puss

    Come on, Cliff! That would be all the high rollers who got eight years of tax cuts on income, dividends and just about everything else under the sun and succeeded in creating zero fukking jobs. Wait for that trickle down … the first drop from 1982 should be arriving shortly.

  • Cliff

    Seriously, if nothing else comes out of all this at least Lieberman must lose his chairmanship.
    .
    Don’t hold your breath.

  • Art Pepper

    So is there actual data that “Cadillac” plans cause patients to go on treatment sprees?

    I mean, maybe it’s just me, but “free colonoscopy” lacks the je ne sais quoi of “free trip to Hawai`i” or even “free ice cream.”

  • Cliff

    Yeah, I was hoping apollyon07 would be all, “the rich guys,” and then I could be all, “you mean THESE rich guys, the ones that cause the recession that lead to 10% unemployment?”

  • bitterpill8

    FO: as an aside let’s look briefly at the leadership of the “world’s greatest deliberative(sic) body”:

    Trent”people can’t understand Southern jokes” Lott; Bill ” I do long range diagnosis on teevee: Frist; Mitch ” I am not constructive, I’m obstructive” McConnell and Harry ” I’ve have an understanding with Joe” Reid. This is the hapless leadership we have endured for some time now.

    One has to wonder how any work gets done.

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  • plukasiak

    The Senate bill as it’s currently written would instead apply a 40% tax on health insurance plans that cost more than $8,500 for families and $23,000 for families. (Only the excess amount would be taxed.)
    _
    of course these same economists would blanch at a 40% marginal income tax rate on earned and unearned income on the rich that is imposed to prevent the negative consequences of the concentration of wealth….
    _

  • Paul-no not that one

    “The Senate bill as it’s currently written would instead apply a 40% tax on health insurance plans that cost more than $8,500 for families and $23,000 for families.”

    There are families and there are families.

    As for framing this as something “that will make the unions happy” it may be worth mentioning how many union members have plans that fall under that definition (1%? 50%? 100%?) and how they ended up with them.

    Bargaining away wage increases for better health coverage perhaps.

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    [...] Who Should Pay for Health Care Reform – the Rich or the Richly Insured? [...]

  • steve851

    If you’re not willing to pay your fair share for universal health care on a progressive basis, then you’re against universal health car, pure and simple. The something for nothig crowd is beneath contempt.

  • hotbbq

    Choke-full of dumb!

  • hotbbq

    I feel exactly the same way. I have zero faith in any bill that comes out of all of this. The politics of this country are pathetic.

  • WisconsinLiberal

    As far as most right of center and centrist folks are concerned the rich will go on to spend their immense wealth and it will trickle on down to us. Unfortunately fo the rest of us that has been proven not to happen quite so nicely. Sure a big chunk of their money gets spent and works its way back into the rest of the economy. However most of that money ends up in the financial sector where it essentially gets pushed around amongst lots of rich people and doesn’t make it to the level of your average person. Sure these are economically productive people if you count GDP as economic output, What one must take into account though is that using money to make more money is not a productive measure of output, sure everyone ends up with more cash but you create nothing of value. Sure the financial sector allows companies to borrow money and helps grease the wheels of commerce, this has however been handled by much less extensive systems in which the rich are taxed more and these systems have yet to come to a screeching halt. The bottom line is that even a 50% tax on the rich is unlikely to effect that segment of our economy in a meaningful way. Quite a few of these people simply make more money than they can productively spend anywhere.

    There that was my rant/lecture for the day, sorry about that.

  • snap57

    Here’s a novel idea, why not have the soon to be insured pay for it themselves? Subsidize them with a 90% tax on all congressional, government employee and union leadership pay. How about a slogan the left would love (and did in the 70s): “Cash, grass or a$$. Nobody rides for free”. Geez! Who should pay!?

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  • http://jothi85.wordpress.com jothi85

    You stated the problem well. i agree with all that you wrote. and would like to add this

    The public is really not into doing the research about things that matter, as much as doing research on Tiger’s mistresses or if Brittney is wearing panties. sad.

  • rustyreturns

    “Every time I read the argument you present here: palininatowel December 14, 2009
    at 10:31 pm”

    The unfortunate thing that palininatowel attempts to describe is the lack of information about health care in general. When in fact it is his/her own lack of knowledge.
    .
    From quality measures on hospitals, doctors, nursing homes and home health care companies, our self described “palin” is attempting to say that there are no resources a potential consumer can check to see not only who is the best, but who delivers the best care at the cheapest prices. But, that is also easily overcome by choosing the best 2 companies, hospitals or doctors and then calling them up to compare their pricing.
    .
    Well ladies and gentlemen, I am proud to say that there are sites that you can access that do much of the above. Site that actually will inform you with free easy access on the internet as well as direct you to the best care possible. What is not readily available is a cost comparison, but hopefully with consumer demand, that will also come someday soon. The reason it isn’t here now, is the fact that control of managing cost remains in the hands of the insurance companies, not the consumer (patient).
    .
    Home Health Care is an area that I am very familiar with, and have worked for over 25 years. While “palin” attempts to say he/she has been involved with something similiar for 15 years, I highly doubt his/her claim. For the past 8 years, Medicare through CMS has initiated many pilot programs which have turned into actual review boards for consumer information. This site is an example of all the various government and independent review sites that will rate for the consumer Doctors, Hospitals, Nursing Homes and Home Health Care Companies.
    .
    http://www.consumerhealthratings.com/index.php?action=showSubCats&cat_id=13
    .
    Taking for example, Home Health. You can access this site:
    .
    http://www.medicare.gov/HHCompare/Home.asp?version=default&browser=IE%7C7%7CWinXP&language=English&defaultstatus=0&pagelist=Home&CookiesEnabledStatus=True
    .
    To see how Home Health Care companies in your specific area perform comparing eah other.
    .
    Other sites I would urge any health care consumer to become familiar with are:
    .
    http://www.cms.hhs.gov/apps/media/press/release.asp?counter=1343
    .
    http://www.webmd.com/
    .
    Perhaps now you may also be informed as well “palininatowel”, and instead of claiming false information as your source, or simply making an accusation with nothing to back your words up, you can instead inform those who do not have this knowledge. I am glad that I have had this opportunity to educate you and you are welcome.
    .
    As stuart and many of us have said, real health care reform will start off with the actual cost of health care, not what the Democrats have proposed in health insurance reform. One area that can curb cost is to empower people with giving them control over the cost by demanding they have more involvement in price controls. If a consumer has to actually pay for their own health care, I believe we shall see this system become more efficient and cost effective. Simply providing it for free or without any involvement, the Government is in no way shape or form able to supervise the policies of over 300 million people. Not to say as well that any “mandate” which is in the current bill is unconstitutional.

  • allthingsinaname

    While I agree that those who make more, benifit more from society, I think we all should pay for it, except those who are the needy among us.

  • allthingsinaname

    If you can’t raise them up, lower them down.

  • Kate Pickert

    This excellent column by David Leonhardt of the New York Times includes further explanation of how a Cadillac tax could help curb health care spending. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/30/business/economy/30leonhardt.html

  • spob

    “Can I sit up here or stand here with a straight face and say, we have got strong cost-containment provisions in this legislation? That if you’re an ordinary person who has employer-based health care, that your premiums are not going to go up in the next eight years based on what’s in this bill? I can’t say that. It’s just not accurate.”
    .
    But I thought Obama said that HCR was going to bend the cost curve . . . .
    .
    What of this quote, KP, KT, MS?

  • palininatowel

    rusty, what utter nonsense.
    .
    “Home health care” is not information regarding specific procedures, as I outlined in my post. The home health care industry is highly regulated and rated, state-to-state, providing detailed information for families seeking either in-home health care or nursing home or assisted living facilities.
    .
    I suspect you are purposely ignoring the primary point of my post. If you are going to get a colonoscopy due to, say, family history, where do you go to get information? And once you find information, what do you with that information?
    .
    You admit that pricing information is not readily available, especially as it relates to quality of outcomes. And even if that information was available, what would the average patient do with it?
    .
    And despite your further ignorance regarding my knowledge on the subject, I have been working on this topic for more than 15 years with a number of Fortune 100 companies as they seek to build workplaces of “informed health consumers.”
    .
    It has been a struggle. And the primary issue is the lack of relevant and understandable information. I have worked with WebMD for 15 years on projects, and they have bought up many of these information providers including companies like Subimo. But even they haven’t been able to make the “informed health care consumer” thing work to date, though they an many others continue working on it.
    .
    So you can ramble on and on about home health care, but that isn’t the topic here.
    .
    We are still years away from having a “marketplace” for health care. Yes, insurance companies are part of the problem, but the AMA and large health care providers have been reluctant to participate, as well. As you noted, cost data is hard to come by.
    .
    I also note the great irony of you citing Medicare (socialized medicine!) as a good source of information on home health care.
    .
    And how funny that conservatives have run their scare program based upon the cry, “Don’t let the government come between you and your doctor!”
    .
    Right now, doctors make recommendations for tests, etc. Those who are lucky enough to have insurance and personal physician act on their doctor’s recommendation. At the same time you’re screaming about someone coming between a patient and her/his doctor, you’re also screaming for people to make decisions based on some numbers that are either not readily available or are not understandable.
    .
    Most folks will choose to listen to their doctors.

  • http://www.jesus-on-taxes.com Ned Netterville

    Why not tax people in Europe and Asia for our health care, that way no American would have to pay? We could put the UN in charge and require it to operate at a profit along the lines of the US Postal Service and Amtrak. Government bureaucrats are so much more honest, unselfish and competent than others that we should be putting them in charge of more than just our physical health and welfare. There should be a component of government responsible for our spiritual well being as well.

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  • rmrd

    The cost of health care impacts the bottom line for businesses. Uncontrolled health care costs, lowers employment. Reforming health care is one way to increase job growth.
    .
    Of course, one is left with the sticky problem that a fully insured US worker will still be more costly than a worker overseas willing to work for 30 cents on the US dollar.
    .
    Is the goal of to produce the cheapest product, or to have the US worker have the highest wages in the world? Jobs could be created overnight if US workers want to give up 50-66% of their salaries.

  • FlownOver

    “Informed consumer choice” pretty much goes out the window in health care. The doc says “Let’s get you a ___________.” The patient thinks “This is my life at risk,” even if there’s only a small percentage risk. Nobody much goes into a nice rational cost/risk/reward analysis. The thought process goes directly to the possibility of death or serious illness. Meanwhile, billions are spent to convince us we must have boner pills and easy-pee pills and happiness pills.
    .
    The cost-limiting strategies that will work, other than general “be healthy” incentives, are those that put the pressure on providers, not consumers.
    .
    So who should pay for all this? I vote for those who made out like bandits (including, immodestly, yours truly) over the last decade or so thanks to excessive giveaway tax cuts. Unless, of course, someone can guarantee employers will provide compensatory wage increases along with reduced-value employee health coverage – and don’t wait up for that.

  • sacredh

    Kate: In your 1st paragraph it should be $8,500 for individuals. Sorry for the nitpicking.

  • rmrd

    Since private insurers are doing their jobs so well what are your projections for health care costs in the future, if we leave the current system intact?

  • rustyreturns

    “I suspect you are purposely ignoring the primary point of my post. If you are going to get a colonoscopy due to, say, family history, where do you go to get information? And once you find information, what do you with that information?”

    .
    I suspect that you simply do not know anything what-so-ever in what YOU are talking about “palin”.
    .
    I cited Home Health Care as an example of where changes have been made, that resources are available now comparing costs, outcomes in care and the ranking of any specific Home Health Care Company.
    .
    AN EXAMPLE of where health care overall has evolved.
    .
    JCAHO reviews and audits hospitals and nursing homes. And, there are many sites coming online each day that also rate doctors.
    .
    What exactly IS your “primary point” in your comment? As I suspect and as usual, NOTHING but bloviation of your point of view with absolutely NO references to back up your opinions.
    .
    Using your example of “where/what to do so far as a colonoscopy” is concerned. Any person with a brain is going to ask their Doctor why he/she is advising you to have it in the first place. There are a multitude of sites that explain why anyone over the age of 50 should have a colonoscopy as a routine exam. But, advice is usually reserved for your doctor to determine when it is the best time, taking into consideration as to family history.
    .
    http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/content/CRI_2_6x_Frequent_Questions_About_Colonoscopy_and_Sigmoidoscopy.asp
    .
    Your doctor will refer you to a Gastroenterologist. You can then choose to go with that doctor, or ask for several doctors in your area to choose from. You can simply call up and ask those doctors what the usual fee is for the procedure ordered. Seems pretty simple to me.
    .
    Then palin says:

    “Right now, doctors make recommendations for tests, etc. Those who are lucky enough to have insurance and personal physician act on their doctor’s recommendation. At the same time you’re screaming about someone coming between a patient and her/his doctor, you’re also screaming for people to make decisions based on some numbers that are either not readily available or are not understandable.”

    .
    First I am not screaming about someone coming between my Doctor and me. You are simply as always confused. Or, just blabbering Democrat talking points.
    .
    Secondly, if something is not readily available so far as information I look it up online or go to a library, or if you do not know how to find out a price, what do you do now, “palin”? SHOP.
    .
    That is all that it takes to see if someone is ripping me and my insurance company off or not. If more people SHOPPED for care the same as they SHOPPED for anything else, studies have shown that health care costs would come down.
    .
    That is one of the points stuart and everyone else makes who agrees, “palin”. Period.
    .
    If I take on your stupid answer, then if I need my car repaired how do you go about finding the best mechanic at the best prices, “palin”, to fix my car?
    .
    I SHOP around!!!

    .

  • slowp

    KP -

    Leonhardt’s right, but the point he’s making is not the point you made. Patients don’t order extra care, doctors do. And the reason they do is they’re trying to recoup their own outrageously rising malpractice premiums, or cover the costs of excessive paperwork foisted on them by insurers, or cover their butt on potential malpractice claims, or make up for low reimbursal rates, or perhaps some are just greedy, etc, etc.
    .
    In short, this is a perfect example of why HC reform is so thorny: there are a multitude of moving parts, participants at cross purposes, confused incentives, etc.
    .
    The reason why this isn’t just nit-picking is that the decade’s-old Republican talking point is that the reason healthcare is so expensive is piggish, free-riding patients demanding excessive & unnecessary care. As usual with Republicans it’s the standard nonsensical simplistic blather: the poor, the weak, and the sick are always the problem, and not those who prey upon them or a system with improper incentives.
    .
    And it’s also a great indicator as to why heathcare is not best served by a purely free-mkt approach: patients are (somewhat) free actors in their choice of insurance, but not in their choice of care: No patient in his right mind would ever turn down a test that a doctor recommends, because he’s not competent to make that decision.
    .
    I’ll say it again, this: “Those with Cadillac health plans generally don’t have any incentive to look for efficient and cost-effective care” is just not how it works in the real world. HC is not like buying a car.

  • Art Pepper

    Or you could allow people to buy into some kind of government-administered non-profit insurance plan.

  • sacredh

    What’s this country coming to if we can’t make a profit on other people’s sickness and misery? Morals, compassion and all of that are fine in theory but we should never let trivialities stand in the way of making a buck.

  • stuartzechman

    Kate Pickert:
    .
    Thanks so much for responding to commentary with links to valuable information, it is greatly appreciated.
    .
    Normally I leave it there, so as not to abuse commentary, and not to create arguments instead of useful interactions between journalists and users, but this time I can’t.
    .
    When you say:

    a Cadillac tax could help curb health care spending

    and then refer to an article in which the author says:

    Slowing the growth of medical spending should, in principle, be one of the more popular parts of health reform. Health care already costs the typical household about $15,000 a year, and these costs are growing far more quickly than incomes.

    you both are doing a poor (although typical, sadly) job as journalists navigating the confusion between the terms “spending” and “costs“.
    .
    These two terms are not synonymous. Often these two terms are deliberately misused by politicians and agenda-driven parties to obfuscate the debate, and often journalists either aren’t capable of effectively communicating to readers that this rhetorical device has been used, or they aren’t informed enough themselves to understand that this is so.
    .
    This confusion could not be more apparent than in your (and David Leonhardt’s) fixation on “spending” as cause of America’s health care system ills, instead of appropriately focusing on “cost”.
    .
    You mention “curb health care spending“, Leonhardt says boldly “We want health spending to slow, just not our own: My health care is a benefit; yours is a cost.
    .
    But, as I’ve mentioned, “spending” is not identical to “cost“.
    .
    Let’s take my apartment as an easy example. If I were to tell you and Mr. Leonhardt that I spend 90% of my income on rent, you would tell me that I needed to curb my rent spending, and you would be correct.
    .
    All I would have to do to solve the problem would be to find some way to reduce my rent spending, like sublet out my kitchen, for example, and my rent spending could be reduced by maybe ten percent, bringing my total rent spending down to 80% of my income, which would be a success –at least according to you and Mr. Leonhardt.
    .
    Voila! Spending curbed!
    .
    But the obvious question to any ordinary person observing these deliberations over my rent would be “How much does his apartment cost such that he pays 90% of his income on it? Shouldn’t he just rent a cheaper apartment?
    .
    Unfortunately, that’s a question whose answer seems beyond the scope of Mr. Leonhardt’s discussion of the issue –and therefor yours.
    .
    If you and Mr. Leonhardt accept as given the price of any commodity –such as my apartment rent, or health care– as unchangeable, the result of natural market forces that cannot be negotiated or influenced, then you will always focus on ways to stop consuming that commodity in order to reduce spending.
    .
    But what if that’s not so? What if the price of health care, e.g. the medical procedures, laboratory tests, hospital visits and stays, and prescription drugs that constitute “health care” as a commodity, are inflated?
    .
    What if the cost of health care is somehow artificially high in the United States?
    .
    What if I’m renting my little apartment at $5,000 a month, while the apartments in the building next door are renting for $2500?
    .
    What if it’s not that I’m spending too much, but that the apartment just costs too much, because I agreed to pay my landlord a ridiculously high price compared to other apartments next door? What if all of the other apartments in all the other buildings on my block were rent-controlled but mine wasn’t?
    .
    When you look at health care prices in the United States compared to other OECD countries, it becomes clear that there is price hyper-inflation of heath care as a commodity, not that we over-spend unit by unit by consuming too much.
    .
    In Japan, for example, citizens go to the doctor three times as often, and have more MRIs than Americans, and yet spend half as much –because somehow health care prices are lower than in the United States!
    .
    Please, please, please do not relay your own confusion over the differences between “costs” and “spending” –even if they are reiterated by such luminaries as David Leonhardt– to your readers, Kate Pickert.
    .
    Please, please, please do a comparison of health care costs between the United States and other developed nations before prescribing a reduction in health care consumption as the cure for our nation’s health care spending woes.
    .
    Is it too much to ask that you effectively communicate the difference between what Leonhardt’s focused on and what’s actually occurring? Is that too far out of your job description?
    .
    Could you please, please, please stop accepting politicians’ and staffers’ rhetoric as the sole legitimate description and premises of our country’s problems with health care? Could please, please, please you make an effort when you ask an economist his expert opinion on strategies to reduce commodity spending to also check to see if the price of the commodity is in line with what the rest of the world pays? Don’t you know that economists simplify to focus on one question at a time…that economists begin their discussions with the assumption “everything else being equal”, Kate Pickert?
    .
    Can you please, please, please address the question of US health care prices vs the rest of the OECD world’s in your reporting?
    .
    Thanks so much for reading and considering this, Kate Pickert, I’m sorry for responding at length this way, but it seemed necessary.

  • palininatowel

    rusty, are you playing dumb or are you really dumb?
    .
    So you’re going to “shop around” for a colonoscopy like you shop around for car repair?
    .
    How do you know who is good at it? And where do you get pricing? You are either lying or ignorant (or, most likely, both) when you suggest simply calling up a hospital or health center and asking for a price on a colonoscopy. Try it some time, and let us know how that turns out.
    .
    And, yes, home health care is different. It is not a medical procedure. So, yes, you are just playing games.
    .
    Sure, you or I or anyone else can find out all about every type of disease known t man, but that’s neither here nor there. The topic (which you tried to avoid, as usual) is health care “consumerism” and my point is that it’s a long way off from being comparable to finding an auto mechanic.
    .
    Speaking of which, do you base your choice of auto mechanic simply on the price quoted to you over the phone? How do you know what’s wrong with your car?
    .
    Even your feeble example doesn’t hold up.
    .
    Good lord, rusty, you are feckin’ pathetic…

  • utilitycurve

    It’s fascinating that many comments here (and elsewhere) on this topic resolve to “enact price controls.”

    Is it those folks’ understanding of the past success of long-term (heck, even short-tern) price controls that they generally worked well?

    I am not so disinclined to believe that consumer price discipline (that is, patronizing lower-cost providers) would be unsuccessful. Haven’t we recently seen a truly consumer-friendly market in generic drugs emerge in areas served by Wal-Mart? In many cases, these $4 and $10 prescriptions are cheaper than insurance copays ON THE SAME GENERICS!

    That experience indicates that people might well be able to choose rationally among radiology, hematology and other test providers. After all, consumers have no basis on which to compare pharmacies than price and location and service hours, yet we accept that. The guarantee of good service and quality products is third-party (government) through licensing and professional boards of review. It could certainly be replicated in the testing market. And it would be an excellent innovation for such a regulated entity to advertise the “lowest prices in town on PSA testing (or mammography or whatever) with convenient weekend and evening hours!”

    That the current system does not allow for such a happy circumstance (because insurance prevents consumers from knowing the true cost of services) is immaterial: Such a system could be created, more quickly and cheaply than health insurance exchanges, so it fits within the realm of the possible.

  • rustyreturns

    Amen amen amen, utility. Finally someone that truly understands that it is the COST of health care that is driving things so out of control with health care insurance.
    .
    The Senate and House can pass all the friggin legislation they want in “reforms” but if they do not address costs, nothing will change. Well it will change, instead of having the private sector to choose from we will have only ONE government entitlement program to choose from.
    .
    Sen Dorgan has proposed an amendment that would cut the cost of drugs. The amendment has been sitting now for over 11 days waiting for a vote, but good ‘ol Harry Reid has postponed the vote despite bipartisian support. In doing so, Harry is placating Obama’s deal that Obama made to keep big Pharma out of the health care reform legislation.
    .
    We need reform, there is no question in my mind. But, we need real reform, not some pie in the sky liberal big government machine to take it all over.
    .
    LIberals don’t give a rat’s a$$ about reform. They simply want to declare a “victory” with an irrational bill that doesn’t make a dent in the cost of health care.
    .
    http://dorgan.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=320552
    .
    Please tell “palin” that this is real reform and not the bogus crap he/she usually spews on this site.

  • palininatowel

    utilitycurve,
    .
    That may be possible with testing, but I can tell you that the information to make informed choices is not there yet. It may be out there, but try andf find it in a useful format that most folks will understand.
    .
    Now let;s talk about procedures.
    .
    Let’s say you have a blocked artery and need a stent put in. Would you shop for that like you do drugs? If so, where would you find relevant data on doctors, outcomes and costs?
    .
    rusty, what kind of reform have I been touting here? I made observations throughout this post, not reforms. You claim that everyone should simply “shop” for health care, and my point is that no rational market exists for things like heart surgery. or even testing at this point (though that is more easy to implement than on procedures).
    .
    An efficient marketplace does not exist at present for procedures, and companies have been trying to create one for more than a decade.

  • utilitycurve

    How do we shop for procedures currently? Unless my experience is singular, I imagine that a primary care physician refers to a surgeon. It would be a conflict of interest for that referral to be made on the basis of a financial interest in the profits of the surgery (the reason doctors cannot sell drugs in their offices as I understand it), so presumably, it must be either a personal relationship or some specialized knowledge of that particular surgeon’s skill as compared to all other available surgeons. I imagine it is most often the former, not the latter, so it is not apparent to me that my doctor has any better information than I do! (I live in a metro area of one million, so the medical community is large enough for some doctors not to have even heard of each other.) If you are suggesting otherwise, I might suggest that the sort of anecdotal evidence available to your referring physician, while better than throwing a dart (it is unlikely that he would refer you to a butcher, but are you certain he is referring you to the most skilled surgeon possible?) is scarcely an adequate basis for a health care delivery system.

    An interesting phenomenon has occurred in my area, and I would be curious to know if it is replicating elsewhere: Hospitals have begun to market-segment: One being the “go-to” cancer ship, another for heart disease, another for stroke care, etc. This is a very short distance from price competition. I doubt very much whether hospitals would have any problem with publishing their “rack rates” if they knew there were some competitive advantage to doing so; alas, in an insurance system without copayment up the scale (as opposed to deductible coupled with 100% coverage past the deductible, which incidentally, is my situation), there is no incentive for me to divine prices, nor hospitals to disclose them. The only entity with such an incentive is my insurer, who negotiates rates with the hospitals.

    Unfortunately, the PPO model hasn’t strongly influenced this area: I would gladly confine my choice of hospitals to those which give my insurer a better price than others, as I would suspect that would moderate the rate of growth in the cost of insurance to me. Instead, in order to mollify consumers who regard being strongly encouraged to use one hospital over another as “insurance company bullying,” as opposed to “hard negotiating on my behalf” rates are negotiated that appear, according to the “explanations of benefits” I have received, level across all hospitals to allow “consumers to freely choose their hospitals.” Well, yes, consumers should freely choose their hospitals, just as they freely choose their supermarkets, which supply another necessity of life. I’m just not sure there’s merit in a system that means the cost of green beans is the same no matter where I go.

    It’s hard to imagine doctors or hospitals “racing to the bottom” in terms of quality in order to be the the low-cost provider. I know I would be reluctant to sign up again next year with a health insurer who encouraged me to use a dirty hospital!

    I agree, Palin-in-a-Towel, that no efficient marketplace for procedures exists, but one can well imagine one, and all it would require is letting individuals choose their insurers (rather than their employers) using tax-free vouchers (to continue the current odd tax status of health benefits). The market would emerge rather rapidly, I believe, and be as competitive as the automobile insurance market. The important feature would be allowing workers to spend less than their voucher amounts and to keep the excess tax-free. That’s another way of producing a “skin-in-the-game” effect that is too often ignored.

  • palininatowel

    Utilitycurve,
    .
    I think we agree on a number of points. Though I will say that even in major metro areas, doctors do, in fact, know who the leading practitioners are in any particular area. Since most internists now belong to large(r) practices.– many tied to particular hospitals/health care organizations — the knowledge base on “best doctors’ among specialists is certainly widely disseminated.
    .
    As for your observation about hospitals identifying verticals within the marketplace of health care (i.e. cancer, cardiac care/surgery, etc.) that is a trend, no doubt. The only problem is that represents a marketing effort (not unlike pharmaceutical advertising) and provides far less in terms of measurable outcome or cost data.
    .
    I will note that rusty had earlier given a link to site that supposedly supplies data on doctors and hospitals and various procedures.A close look at the site shows that it offers very limited information — such as a very few states that are making efforts to track such data. And when they do, they create information like this for heart bypass surgeons in California:
    .
    LINK (pdf)
    .
    Now, if you take a look at that data set, how are consumers to decipher that? Contrary to what rusty and even you (to an extent) have suggested here, many large companies have “Health Savings Accounts” (HSAs) that allow employees to roll-over unused funds from one year to the next, tax-free. These companies are asking employees to make “informed health care decisions” based on information like that provided in the link, above.
    .
    For the most part, employees are completely lost, even though third parties like WebMD and others are providing a suite of “decision tools” in regards to procedures and tests.
    .
    Pharmaceuticals are an entirely different category , and most large companies now offer incentives for employees to:
    1. buy generic, and
    2. buy online or via mail.
    .
    Employees readily adapt these methods, particularly when they are enrolled in an HSA-style plan where there is some out-of-pocket costs and they get to keep the savings in the form of a roll-over.
    .
    But pharmaceuticals are a product, unlike procedures which are a service — and a service upon which one;s life may depend, based on the quality of the physician and the institution.
    .
    I think the difficulties in creating a “marketplace” for health services cannot be overstated. The resistance of just about every party involved (along with their powerful lobbying arms) makes such a marketplace a great idea in theory but one that is a long, long way from reality as most of the Fortune 500 have discovered over the last decade.

  • omgamike

    Just as a side note to all of the excellent comments listed here — I have both Medicare and Medicaid, and am a beneficiary of one of the many excellent home health care programs (which, by the way, costs a whole lot less than my being in a nursing home). But, even considering all I just said, I consider myself an informed consumer of medical services.

    Every time a doctor wants me to take a new prescription, I immediately go on-line to learn all that I can about the new drug — and if I have any questions about it, I promptly call the doc to get answers to my questions. If I am either not happy with the answers I get, or feel uneasy about the drug, I will not take it.

    A few months ago, I visited my doc. He was new, having replaced my existing doc, who had moved to another state on personal reasons. Though this doc did not bring it up, or recommend it — I realized that it had been quite awhile since I had had a chest x-ray or some routine blood work (I have several chronic conditions, which require periodic monitoring). So I pointed this out to the doc, who agreed with me and ordered the tests. I have done the same thing by questioning anesthesiologists just prior to surgery, filling them in on tidbits I had gleaned from prior surgeries — and being first thanked for providing them with the info — and then asking if I was “in” medicine.

    So, yes, the average person “can” be an informed consumer of services. It just takes a little effort to get there.

  • apollyon07

    If by rich guys you mean the people whose companies provide thousands and thousands of jobs, which has allowed for American unemployment to be (typically) much lower than other industrialized nations, then yes.
    .
    Also, note how unemployment fell after the tax cuts of Reagan and Bush, and how under Reagan charitable donations soared, and how under Bush tax revenues soared. (links will be provided if requested).
    .
    But yeah, go ahead and raise their taxes during a recession. That would go against very, very basic and easily understood economic principles, but hey, if your goal is to stick it to them, then fine.
    .
    Ah, nothing like a little class warfare to lighten up your afternoon.

  • apollyon07

    Also, thanks for ignoring my initial question, which was the crux of my post. I genuinely was seeking an answer on the policy.

  • rodtanner

    Health care reform and economic recovery are not mutually exclusive, Einstein. And I’d LOVE to hear your theory on how increasing taxes on the rich stifles business. The most prosperous period in U.S. history was the 1950s when the maximum tax rate was 95 percent. Why are psuedo-conservatives always so anxious to display their ignorance?

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