In the Arena

India and Pakistan and Afghanistan

Glenn Greenwald has now joined several Swampland commenters in asserting that I somehow raised a “new” argument for the Afghan war escalation over the weekend when I wrote that pulling out of Afghanistan would exacerbate tensions between India and Pakistan, empower the more extreme elements of the Pakistani military, perhaps leading to an Islamist coup and certainly removing whatever restraints the Pakistani military has had in supporting its Afghan Taliban clients. Greenwald, inimitably, goes on to assert that I’ve been spoon-fed this “new” rationale by my “hawkish government sources” in the Obama Administration.

First of all, there is absolutely nothing “new” about this argument. It is well known to most people who have been following this story carefully; I’ve referred to it more than a few times. In fact, candidate Barack Obama raised it more than a year ago, in this interview with me, several weeks before the 2008 election, when he placed the Afghan war in the context of the regional struggle between India and Pakistan and proposed a special envoy to sort it out, paying particular attention to the problem at the heart of the controversy–Kashmir. (This comment was front-page news all over the subcontinent. The Indians were so adamantly opposed that India had to be dropped from Richard Holbrooke’s official brief when he became the special envoy to the region–proof of the volatility of the issue.)

Second, I don’t know where Greenwald gets his information about how I go about my work; indeed, he does this often with mainstream journalists he disagrees with. The assumption is, if we disagree with him, we must be either (a) lazy or (b) prostitutes.

Over time, it has become clear to me that he has no idea how actual journalists do what they do–I mean, people who report as opposed to people who merely opine, as he does. So let me explain how I came to write what I did on Sunday.

In this case, my reporting started with the Obama interview and then proceeded with two visits to Afghanistan and two visits to Pakistan in the past year, many discussions with U.S. diplomats…and lots and lots of reading. The visits to Pakistan were especially valuable: it was there that I gained a much clearer view of how the Pakistanis perceived this situation (their exaggerated sense of the Indian threat borders on paranoia). I’ve also had many conversations with U.S. military sources, but none that I can recall about the India-Pakistan relationship–I’ve pretty much stuck to the military situation on the ground in Afghanistan when talking to Pentagon sources; in recent months, as regular readers know, I’ve had a running dispute with senior military officials abouts why they chose to put troops in Helmand province as opposed to Kandahar, in contravention of counterinsurgency doctrine. It’s a serious strategic mistake that enabled the Taliban to gain strength in the key Pashtun population center.

Over the past few weeks, especially since Obama’s West Point speech, I’ve been struck by the narrowness of the Afghan discussion–by the President and the press–and felt that it might be a service to readers to review the regional issues here. That’s why I wrote what I wrote over the weekend.

But it’s interesting: over the course of 2 years of blogging, I’ve learned that most people really don’t understand why journalists write what they write when they write it. On that larger point, Greenwald is sometimes right–journalists don’t always do what they should. They can be lazy or inaccurate; more often, it’s not so much a matter of being spoon-fed by sources as the opposite–cynicism has become the default position, there isn’t enough independent thinking and analysis going on. Sometimes, believe it or not, the President–even a terrible President like George Bush–does the right thing and should be commended for it. The press latches onto minutiae (is the President too over-exposed etc etc), sees too many trees without giving the context of the forest. But we often do our jobs very well–at times, brilliantly, at the risk of life and limb. (I’m not talking about occasional visitors to war zones like me, but people like Dexter Filkins of the Times, Pamela Constable of the Post and dozens of others, who actually live in difficult places and who’ve helped educate me when I’ve traveled to their regions.)

Greenwald only acknowledges good journalism when he agrees with it; he never acknowledges a thoughtful or responsible position taken on the other side. It’s all a manichean cartoon–no, actually, it’s all a court case: he’s standing at the plaintiff’s bar, fighting against the comfortable and the powerful–except for comfortable and powerful trial lawyers. Well, bravo. Sometimes there is call to do that. But usually, when dealing with public policy issues, it’s more complicated than a court case. And on an issue like Afghanistan, complicated doesn’t even begin to describe it. Those who would have us retreat need to take every aspect of the situation into account, just as those who would have us stay. I believe that in this case the President went through the exercise, carefully considered every option, and made his decision–a grudging decision–in honorable fashion. I agree with his decision, although I’m not sure that I’m right to do so; I certainly don’t denigrate those, including some I know in the military and the Administration, who disagree–not even those who make their arguments carelessly, as George McGovern and Glenn Greenwald have. They may, in the end, be right.

Update: More Greenwald, though he’s backpedaling a bit now. He’s concerned that the regional strategic concerns that I’ve described are a secret casus belli on the part of the Obama Administration. That’s rather melodramatic. What’s actually happening here is…diplomacy. It would be indelicate for the Administration to talk about its fears that Pakistan will trend toward an Islamist takeover if we leave–because the Administration doesn’t want to rile or insult the Pakistanis (although Bruce Riedel, who led the first Obama Afghan review, has said so very publicly, both to me and in an article in the National Interest). It is also impossible to speak publicly about Kashmir because the Indians go berserk whenever we do so (as the Indians did, when Obama mentioned Kashmir in the interview with me cited above).

As I said, these are matters of diplomacy, not intelligence. They have nothing to do with the sort of government secrecy that so concerns civil libertarians like Greenwald. Indeed, the argument I laid out is not considered news in the foreign policy community; I felt the need to repeat it in order provide some context for the Afghan decision. I also believe that the Administration could have done a better job in providing that context. But the President–or any of his top officials–would be foolish to comment on it, since that would work at cross-purposes with our diplomatic mission in the region.

As for those commenters who believe that this disagreement with Greenwald is somehow rude or over-the-top, or unnecessary, you should have seen previous exchanges between us. I think we’ve both been fairly well-behaved so far and that our readers have benefited from this discussion.

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  • rustyreturns

    Answer: “B” Alex, What is a prostitute? Question. Who is Joe Klein?
    .
    You can play the jeopardy.wav now Joe.

  • juniusredivivus

    Pete Hoekstra would be so proud of you, Joe. You managed to say almost nothing, while expressing the full glory of your poutrage. He and Steve King have taught you well, grasshopper.

  • constantweader

    Both you & Greenwald would be more convincing if you didn’t insist upon fighting like bratty little kids with potty mouths.

    With all due respect,

    The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com

  • deconstructiva

    Joe, I’ve also seen similar journalism-as-black-box criticisms, so why not counter these by showing us your process in detail / how you do your job? I get the confidential sources thingy as well as (literally) needing to hide when you’re reporting in hostile areas (Iran, Afghanistan, and DC), but more transparency is often a good thing.
    .
    Since your job should involve bringing sunshine to political processes, do the same to your own – not just [he said A, she said B, here are some numbers], but more behind-the-scenes stuff. At least this removes that criticism and steers debate to the facts instead.

  • marvyt

    Sometimes Greenwald indulges himself in deep, deep mind reading. He’s a very bright guy and an excellent writer, but like Jane Hamsher, he has to question the motives and morals of everyone who disagrees with him. Joe, you have written some stupid things (less so lately), but this was not one of them. I’m not completely sold on Obama’s approach, but I think he (and you) just want the best outcome possible. It’s OK to question someone’s sanity or intelligence but just making stuff up is counterproductive.

  • http://www.ghostnote.com Cookie Puss

    I don’t see the downside of India blowing up Pakistan.

  • cfukara

    —– somewhat related to this crusade of self-defence

    Dec 14, 2009 – “A Georgia man was sentenced to 17 years in federal prison for supporting terrorists and a foreign terrorist organization. “This is not about your faith,” the judge said. “This is about the rule of law in this country ..” “

    Now, we are going to see more “rule of law” vigor injected into our lethargic, cozy relationship with our christian terrorists – the KKK and the Aryan Brotherhood/Nation – who kill or conspire to kill Americans or support hatemongering, domestic, christian terrorist organizations.
    Then we will take another look at those terror-meisters at Abu Ghurayb and Guantanamo and Al Hadithah and Faroudja. Then we will …

    Then maybe not.

  • sevenoaks07

    JK: I can see your point. Glenn G sometimes comes across as either a prosector or defence counsel. But it is tough to argue with some of his critiques. On your side I have noted a commendable focus on nuance. .

    On the India-Pakistan “question”. It is worth noting that India and Pakistan fought two wars; and India helped East Pakistan hive off into an independent Bangladesh. India got rid of one neighbour on its East (East Pakistan) and was able to focus on West Pakistan and Kashmir. I am sure you will recall Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, then Pakistan’s “arrogant and fluent” representative at the UN,and Benazir’s father, railing at the UN’s failure to help Pakistan. He went on to become PM of “West” Pakistan and made a right mess of things and was eventually hanged.

    The sources of Pakistan’s instability are many; and sometimes Americans don’t spend time with such complexities. It all becomes ” you are either with us or against us.

    The Sindhis have dominated the upper echelons of the army and intelligence agencies: that too is a problem for the Pashtuns and for Americans.

    But I appreciate your efforts to put across a your arguments for a course of action or an analysis. It all helps. Don’t worry too much about some of the more cutting commentary; focus on the questions raised and the arguments being advanced. We all need to be educated and re-educated on the subject of America’s use of military power in far away places. And we should be open to criticism,too.

  • http://melissasouza.wordpress.com melissasouza

    That was funny. Sorry to say, but Pakistan has precious little to show for itself as a country. It constantly blames its failures on others–first the British, now the Americans and the Indians. If the ruling elites weren’t so corrupt and aloof, and actually enacted policies that developed the country, reduced poverty and created growth (such as its neighbor and arch-rival India is doing), would we be hearing so many complaints, so much paranoia, so much victimization, denial? What exactly does Pakistan make? What does it export? How productive is its economy? We only hear about abject poverty, corruption, terrorism and a state on the brink of failure. It receives massive aid and doesn’t use that aid for the benefit of the population; it complains about “attacks on its sovereignty”, but wants the aid nonetheless. It complains if the U.S. increases troops in Afghanistan, but would be complaining considerably more if we pulled out. True, the West has used Pakistan shamelessly, first during the Cold War against the Soviets and now against Al Quaida. But the West has used and abused other countries as well–India, China, many countries in Latin America, Vietnam, the list goes on. None of these countries seem to be having the problems that Pakistan has, and none of them play the blame game as stridently as Pakistan does. It would serve the Pakistanis well to take a look at Shakespeare: “the fault, dear Brutus, lies not in the stars, but in ourselves.”

  • cfukara

    And then,
    while we talk of universla rights, where does Blackwater terrorGoons and the droneMasters fit in this calvacade of terror?

  • cfukara

    ouch
    “universal” “cavalcade”

  • nflfoghorn

    If you have facts on your side, Joe, I don’t see why you have to defend yourself so stridently. What’s GG going to do to you other than shout you down? Does he have a Mafioso posse out to get you or somethin’?

  • http://melissasouza.wordpress.com melissasouza

    Joe, you’re one of the best, if not THE best around. But I do wish you’d stop the name-calling and the verbal wrestling matches with these bloggers that irk you so. It’s beneath you really. Most of us media junkies know who the hopeless lefties and the hapless righties are, and whatever they say or do has no bearing on you, Joe. Greenwald is way out there, although his writings on Iraq are excellent and to-the-point and highly necessary reading. The Left WAS right on Iraq, and generally it is right about many issues. The problem is that the country and its establishments do not tilt that way, and change has to come incrementally, not radically. So a suggestion from a big fan: just quit these tit-for-tats and stick to your sublime analyses for the benefit of the rest of us (you defended EJ Dionne from one of these assaults in a recent post–alas, EJ just kept his head high and his mouth closed–this is the example to follow).

  • nflfoghorn

    The poppy population may go down, for one, for people who are into that sort of thing.

  • shepherdwong

    “Second, I don’t know where Greenwald gets his information about how I go about my work; indeed, he does this often with mainstream journalists he disagrees with. The assumption is, if we disagree with him, we must be either (a) lazy or (b) prostitutes.”
    .
    My guess is he simply looks at the product. It’s not really that big a leap from there. The fact is, Greenwald presents more important truth about how Washington works in one column than you and your peers ever do. He has to develop some theory as to why he can tell people what is what while so very few of your colleagues ever do.
    .
    But aren’t you really committing the same sin as you accuse Greenwald by presuming that’s what he assumes? Of course, you could always read what Greenwald really thinks about you and your fellows, instead of just lazily making up his rationale. He has also pointed to village corporatism, hatred of liberals and liberalism, group-think, peer-pressure and a strong authoritarian-following streak (but you can’t really talk about any of those things, can you?). I mean beside the laziness and professional prostitution.

  • pneogy

    If there is any blowing up, I am not sure it would be one sided. But I don’t really think that, bad as the relations between India and Pakistan are, the two nations will resort to a nuclear exchange as soon as US influence in the region diminishes. All the talk about nuclear armed neighbors just waiting to tear out each other’s throat merely serve perpetuate an exaggerated, fictitious stereotype.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    You’re both right! It’s a florr wax AND a dessert topping.

    I actually think that your pushback is out of proportion to Glenn’s original column. He’s only citing you as one example and the fact is that you are tight with your sources and they are for the most part hawks. A big symptom of what goes wrong is the fact thet you’re asserting that the India/Pak angle is old news. It might be, but it’s news that no one has paid any attention to.

  • pintortwo

    I think this paragraph best explains GG’s problem with Mr. Klein’s post:
    .
    Urging leaders to continue to wage wars in the face of great public opposition, as the NYT Editorial Page does today, is deeply misguided and undemocratic. But fighting wars for secret, undisclosed reasons — as Klein suggests and defends is being done by the Obama administration — is even worse.
    .
    Perhaps suggesting that JK is a stenographer for hawkish Obama officials is unfair, and I can understand him being offended. But the above statement is quite valid, and unaddressed by Klein.

  • juniusredivivus

    I am sure a nuclear war between India and Pakistan would produce tangible global benefits, but I must admit to being able to think of precisely none.

  • shepherdwong

    For instance, Greenwald probably can’t figure out why you constantly bloviate about war and war policy but never tell people the important facts they need to know:

    Urging leaders to continue to wage wars in the face of great public opposition, as the NYT Editorial Page does today, is deeply misguided and undemocratic. But fighting wars for secret, undisclosed reasons — as Klein suggests and defends is being done by the Obama administration — is even worse. But — as former Navy Commander Jeff Huber and former Marine Scott Ritter, among others, have both recently pointed out — Dwight Eisenhower’s warning has come true: the military has become its own branch of government, uncontrolled by anyone and almost entirely unaccountable. It virtually always gets what it wants. The stated reasons for fighting in Afghanistan make so little sense that Klein is almost certainly right that the real causes are undisclosed. It’s extremely difficult to imagine a circumstance that could justify that.

    .
    Instead of discussing any of the important issues Greenwald raises you stake out some petty grievance about whether the India/Pakistan rationale is really “new” (and have make up another strawman to do it). It’s really not his fault that he’s forced to wonder why you and your peers can’t do your jobs when it comes to defense policy. It is perhaps the story of the late 20th and early 21st Centuries.

  • pintortwo

    The tension between Pakistan and India with respect to Afghanistan and Kashmir is real and important. However, to suggest that a US commitment of billions in Afghanistan infrastructure construction, trillions (perhaps) in total military expenditure, tens-of-thousands of American youth at risk and seemingly decades of entanglement is the appropriate response is outlandish. So much so that it appears nothing more than smoke-screen. We have diplomats, the world has diplomats, that are better charged with keeping these tensions at bay. This analysis too does not address the nuclear standoff between the two countries and fails to mention the oil factor. Therefore, it is at best sophomoric, at worst, misleading. Further, our military is still led by Bush era holdovers (Gates, Mullen, Petraeus, McChrystal, Odierno), this too cannot be ignored.
    .
    I feel that Joe should know better, that he is better.

  • formerlyjames

    I am opposed to the expansion and continuation of the war in Afghanistan because I think it is Viet Namish futile, so I agree with Greenwald, who should at least express gratitude to Klein for sending readers his way.
    .
    The only possible way I would support a continued effort is if it were truly a world endeavor and not lone wolf America in another unilateral campaign. As I’ve said before, it would overjoy me for Russia to be brought into the efforts. But, no, that’s crazy, right?
    .
    Nothing new here. I do wish to express thanks to Cookie Puss at # 6 for providing a truly appreciated good ol’ belly laugh and no doubt a few smiles as I recall it in the future.

  • abdullah69

    The idea that the US can consider the military as the primary tool for resolving international disputes is pretty sad.

  • kingsbridge77

    Mr. Klein is always kissing Obama’s ass. He’s a one-trick pony. He did not address Greenwald’s accusation that he (Klein) said Obama doesn’t have to explain some of the best arguments behind the war in Afghanistan.

  • homerhk

    Joe, don’t let GG get you down; as you say he is an opinion journalist, has an agenda and is willing to spin facts just as readily as people on the other side of the spectrum to make his case. Yesterday, I think he officially lost it when he seemed to compare the Chinese executing a corrupt minister favourably with Obama’s meeting with the bankers last night. I mentioned on his thread that seeming to wish the same result in the US was a bit inconsistent with his rule of law, civil liberties schtick that he is obsessed with.

    I also pointed out that nothing you said in your column was really covert but of course he didn’t bother addressing it. He has the end result in mind and is very clever about weaving a narrative in order to get there. The one thing it is not, however, is objective journalism.

  • discostu570

    Your previous post supplied two rationales for war. One is essentially altruistic, the notion that we’re fighting so that India and Pakistan won’t. I think you can appreciate how it is that so many of your readers are skeptical of this idea. The U.S. Military doesn’t take a bullet for anybody, we act in our own self interest just like every other nation on earth. If mutually assured destruction can keep Russians and Americans from murdering each other for a half a century, I think it’s enough of a deterrent that there’s no need for America to play international babysitter. I get that it’s a tense region, and it’s exactly that which leads me to believe the United States becomes safer the less we immerse ourselves in it’s affairs. I’m not so cavalier as to suggest that nuclear war, even nuclear war on the opposite end of the globe, is simply not our concern. But I don’t see the angle. Looking over Pakistan’s shoulder seems to be neither necessary nor sufficient to keep nuclear arms from falling into dangerous hands.
    .
    The other reasons, we can’t know about. They must go unspoken.
    .
    This is why public opinion being so favorable towards this war is so terrifying to some of us. I don’t think this war is an act of ignorance, I’m sure there is some reason we are fighting this war, and that somebody, somewhere, thinks it’s a very worthwhile reason for thousands of Americans to give their lives. The American people don’t know what that reason is because their government and their press don’t trust them to know, and somehow they support the war anyway.
    .
    I’m not violently anti-Klein, as a surprising number of posters on your own blog seem to be. I don’t doubt that these ideas aren’t new, and though I often find Greenwald’s writing informative, I agree that he can be a little close-minded; I personally find it intellectually irresponsible to be as sure of yourself as he always seems to be. Still, the intent of your original post seemed clearly to be to curb the criticism of the escalation by throwing a bit of a curveball, as whether or not the idea is ‘new’, nobody was talking about it when people accepted that the fight was still against al-qaeda. Think you know whats happening in the world? Think again.
    .
    Greenwald’s main point here is valid. The reason a (nominally) open, democratic nation goes to war can’t be withheld from the people, and I shudder at the fact that the (nominally) free and independent press, which our forefathers thought they had safeguarded in the Bill of Rights, is willing to accept this state of affairs. If the press knows, it should tell the people. If the press doesn’t know, then the press and the people should both be clamouring for their representatives to tell them the truth. And if, in the end, people find it monstrous that their sons and daughters have been giving their lives for this reason, the war should be over the very next day.

  • http://aroundthesphere.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/one-of-the-longest-running-beefs-in-the-blogosphere-continues/ One Of The Longest Running Beefs In The Blogosphere Continues… « Around The Sphere

    [...] Klein responds to Greenwald: Glenn Greenwald has now joined several Swampland commenters in asserting that I somehow raised a “new” argument for the Afghan war escalation over the weekend when I wrote that pulling out of Afghanistan would exacerbate tensions between India and Pakistan, empower the more extreme elements of the Pakistani military, perhaps leading to an Islamist coup and certainly removing whatever restraints the Pakistani military has had in supporting its Afghan Taliban clients. Greenwald, inimitably, goes on to assert that I’ve been spoon-fed this “new” rationale by my “hawkish government sources” in the Obama Administration. [...]

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