In the Arena

McGovern on Afghanistan

George McGovern was a world war II hero, a principled politician and absolutely right about the foolishness of the war in Vietnam. He is thoroughly wrong about Afghanistan, though. As President Obama painstakingly explained in his West Point speech, Vietnam is a false–indeed, a facile–anology. The war in Vietnam was based on lies–the Tonkin Gulf incident–and a false premise, the notion that Vietnam would be the next domino to fall in a communist campaign to conquer Asia. (The total wrongness of this theory was soon demonstrated by the China-Soviet split and subsequent, tacit U.S.-China alliance against the Soviets–as well as a thousand years of tension between the Vietnamese and the Chinese.)

Afghanistan is different. There are familiar arguments about why this is so–we invaded them because they allowed Al Qaeda safe havens to plan attacks on us, for example. It can also be argued that while the Viet Minh were a national liberation army with broad popular support, the Taliban represent only one Afghan ethnic faction, the Pashtuns, and they are not very popular even among their own people. But some of the best arguments about why this war is necessary must go unspoken by the President. They involve Pakistan and India. Let me lay them out briefly:

Let’s start with a fact: the Indian Embassy in Kabul has suffered major, lethal bomb attacks twice in the past two years. There is little question in the intelligence community that these attacks were staged by terrorist allies of the Pakistani Army. The Pakistanis are absolutely convinced that if the U.S. leaves Afghanistan, India will jump in, supporting the non-Pashtun elements in the country–indeed, India was a supporter of the Northern Alliance’s guerrilla war against the Taliban in the 1990s (although, it must be said, the Pakistanis have a rather exaggerated sense of Indian involvement).

Why is this a problem we should care about? Because India and Pakistan both have nuclear weapons. Because tensions between the two countries would escalate dramatically if we were to abandon the region. And, most important, because our departure would empower the more radical elements of the Pakistani military and intelligence services–not merely in their support of the Taliban, but also, potentially, in their ability to stage an Islamist coup d’etat. This is the worst scenario imaginable: a nuclear Pakistan, with allies of Osama Bin Laden controlling the trigger. (Nor would this be the first Islamist coup: Zia al-Haq staged one in the late 1970s, which we supported–against the Russian invasion of Afghanistan.)

Far-fetched? Well, it’s certainly a worst case scenario–but it’s far more plausible than the domino theory that led us into Vietnam. Our continued presence in Afghanistan gives the civilian government in Pakistan space and time to build some institutions, like a non-corrupt judiciary and an non-religious education system, if it can. (Yes, a big if.) After the Musharraf dictatorship, the notion of yet another military coup is very unpopular with the general population–a sentiment that can be built upon now, especially with the $7.5 billion infusion of U.S. economic and humanitarian aid. The stronger the civilian government, the less likely a military coup. (Another big if: as long as the civilian government is led by Asif Ali Zardari, held in almost universal low regard by Pakistanis, the chances of a credible central government remain crippled–but Zardari is gradually moving toward a power-sharing arrangement with other civilian factions.)

More directly, a continued U.S. presence in Afghanistan means that the Pakistani military will low-ball its support for the Afghan Taliban, as it is sort of doing now. If we left, the Pakistani Army would augment its support for the Taliban, in the hopes that it could resume control of the Kabul government. A U.S. military presence also gives the Karzai government–laughably corrupt as it is–a last chance to get its act together. We should know within the next year if that is happening.

Finally, a U.S. military presence in the region gives strength, and credibility, to the most important work that needs to be done–the diplomatic efforts to lower the temperature between Pakistan and India. This has to be the unstated, opaque priority of the coming months. Several years ago, the Indians and Pakistanis came close to a deal on Kashmir. We need to nudge them back to that agreement; we also need to convince both sides that the commercial benefits of better relations far outweigh the false sense of security that attends the constant state of tension that exists now.

There is no guarantee that any of this will work. Indeed, there is a very good chance that it will not. But this is a situation that carries huge national security implications for the United States, in a way that Vietnam (and Iraq, for that matter) never did. McGovern’s reflexive antiwar arguments, which clearly lack a detailed understanding of the situation–or the efforts by the U.S. troops to limit civilian casualties and provide security, and social services, for the population–simply aren’t very credible.

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  • bitterpill8

    You have struck the right note: if India and Pakistan can come to terms with, for example, some kind of non-aggression pact and a focus of economic development within Pakistan the tensions might ease.

    The Pakistan officer class in the army is Sindhi, if I recall correctly, while the soldiers are drawn mainly from the Pashtuns. Maybe some attempt at leavening the officer class with Pashtuns may help bring about a better balance within the armed forces.

    As for the intelligence crowd: they are the problem, in my view. Too many factions with too many competing interests and too much cash from too many sources. Yes, I am looking at you Saudi Arabia and some of you scoundrels in the Gulf..

  • bitterpill8

    “focus on” –oops! sorry

  • Cliff

    The Pakistanis are absolutely convinced that if the U.S. leaves Afghanistan, India will jump in, supporting the non-Pashtun elements in the country
    .
    It seems strange that after all the reporting done on this region, this is the first I’ve heard about this concern. Is there any proof of this? Wouldn’t the Indians, seeing the most powerful military in the world get bogged down for eight years, avoid getting entangled in Afghanistan? (Maybe they have a better way of doing things, I don’t know.)
    .
    Our continued presence in Afghanistan gives the civilian government in Pakistan space and time to build some institutions
    .
    What if we stuck around in Pakistan but pulled back from Afghanistan? Make sure the nukes don’t fall into Taliban hands, and all that.
    .
    And using Afghanistan to shore up Pakistan’s government seems tenuous. Why not shore up Pakistan’s government to shore up Pakistan’s government?
    .
    Finally, a U.S. military presence in the region gives strength, and credibility, to the most important work that needs to be done–the diplomatic efforts to lower the temperature between Pakistan and India.
    .
    This, I am flat out not buying. For years, we’ve been hearing “we have to stay in Afghanistan to fight Al Qaeda” – from you, from the rest of the press corps, from the military.
    .
    Now all of a sudden the reason is to keep India and Pakistan from nuking each other? What will it be next week – to keep China from invading?
    .
    We do need to keep affairs calm between India and Pakistan, but I find it insulting to claim that that is why we need to stay in Afghanistan, after all these years.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Frankly, this line of argument reminds me of neoconservatives’ line that we should be making speeches and equipping the opposition in Iran.
    -
    We have to be rational about our capabilities, our limitations, and what other countries want. India doesn’t want us in the middle of their relations with Pakistan.
    -
    Just because it’s “a problem we should care about” doesn’t mean that “we should invade/occupy/attack.”
    -
    Statecraft isn’t a morality play. Results are what we need to care about. And if “there is a very good chance that it will not” work, well, hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of American lives ought not be thrown at it simply out of a desire, however genuine, to make the world nicer. Because those losses, a radicalized Pakistan, and an India weary of our bumbling, won’t vindicate our emotions.

  • bitterpill8

    Cliff: the Indians have had an active presence in Afghanistan politics : both diplomatic/trade and intelligence. It ties into creating distractions for the Pakistanis who have forces massed on the Kashmir north-western border facing Indian forces. During the Cold War India leant towards Russia while the Americans and Chinese leaned towards Pakistan. It is in that awful brew that you will find some explanation for why the India – Pakistan dispute needs resolution. The plus side is that India has managed to make significant economic progress, as a democracy, in spite of defense spending. The Pakistani have been a basket case for as long I can remember what with dictators and “democrats” replacing one another in government.

  • abdullah69

    Oh great. So now we have a new reason to stay in Afghanistan – to stop possible nuclear conflict between India and Pakistan.

    A) It is precisely this kind of meddling in the affairs of other nations which spawned Al – qaeda in the first place.

    B) Once people start looking around for new excuses to stay in Afghanistan, then you just know that the original goals have become unattainable.

    Assuming Joe is right that the Pakistanis seek a continued US presence, then where exactly is their motivation to destroy the Al -qaeda leadership?

    There are too many “if”s in this hypothesis, and the central one, that Pakistan will beome a model for good government, is deeply flawed. In the sixty years of Pakistan’s existence there has been absolutely no evidence to suggest this is even remotely possible.

  • Cliff

    See, I didn’t know that about India. But if it’s that big of a deal, then why hasn’t it been brought up more often?
    .
    This is certainly the first time I’ve seen Klein mention it.

  • Cliff

    That “if” statement is right up there with “if we can get Karzai to reform and become an honest politician.”

  • abdullah69

    Only marginally off – topic, but, outside North America, much of the world politically has been shaped only within the last sixty years. While comparisons between nations in terms of political development are always questionable, it does appear that the countries least able to provide strong government – of any form – are those with predominantly Muslim populations. Why is this?

  • formerlyjames

    George McGovern was right about Viet Nam and he is right about Afghanistan.
    .
    The arguments that Afghanistan is different from Viet Nam are weak at best. The rationale for VN was accepted at the time. The lie of the Tonkin Gulf incident was not known for long after, and it is really irrelevant to the argument anyway. The Domino Theory (capitalized because it is an actual, formal, documented and accepted theory, not merely a random descriptive adjective), was widely accepted and probably held more water in the aftermath of WWII and the Iron Curtain than the rationales for Afghanistan now.
    .
    McGovern was defeated in a landslide by a lying, corrupt right winger (and yet on other levels a great president, especially in light of his right wing successors), who had 4 years earlier promised a “secret plan” to end the war, and then proceeded to extend for almost another 10 years, until it was ended after his near impeachment and subsequent resignation. Ford didn’t have a secret plan, just common sense, but the end was chaos and the greatest disgrace we have ever known (up to that time).
    .
    Mainly, in both instances we arrogantly and unilaterally prop up corrupt unpopular puppet governments in an attempt to control world events. And we do it after failing to provide support for previous attempts to defeat the “adversary” (France), or actually support the adversary and allow their existence to begin with (Russia).
    .
    McGovern has paid a high and unfair price for speaking out against illogical thinking and foreign policy in the past. The man deserves respect. I respect him.

  • sevenoaks07

    Kudos to JK. Each week he comes with another argument for US involvement in Afghanistan: now it is helping Indo-Pak relations. What is going to be about next week? protecting the projected oil and gas pipelines that are to be run through Afghanistan from the other stans in the north?

  • michaelfury

    Yes, you forgot to mention the pipelines, Mr. Klein:

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/05/11/the-gas-must-flow/

  • michaelfury

    “The war in Vietnam was based on lies–the Tonkin Gulf incident”

    Right. Whereas the “War on Terror” was based on…

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/the-rest-is-silence/

  • sacredh

    They take their religion far too seriously. Over here we use religion to advance political objectives. Over there they use religion to advance all objectives. Glad I could clear that up.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Joe may or may not be correct in his analysis both in what our soldiers are accomplishing with their presence or what particular scenarios may play out if we were to leave. But at least he’s addressing the question with eyes wide open about who the various actors are and what their interest might be. Compare this to the many people who see the entire situation through their Muslim=Terrorist lens and don’t even have a clue as to why our mission might include dealing with Muslim allies, or trying to soften extremism through effort at cooperation.

    Stated another way, Imagine if John McCain were President and Randy Scheunemann were the national Security advisor. It’s something for progressives to think about when they consider ways to punish Obama for being the same DNC style centrist he always was….

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    True, of course. There’s only one party in this country that is remotely serious about any issue at all.
    -
    Still gotta keep the pressure up to get the answer right, though. Yes, JK is dealing with the actual issues facing us, which is preferable to Palinism, but, we can’t give into the soft bigotry of low expectations. (Not to be a jerk, this is definitely a well-informed and thoughtful post).
    -
    That people as well-informed as this does make me worry that our opinions on this are going to come down to tribalism and predisposition, though.

  • stuartzechman

    Joe Klein:

    some of the best arguments about why this war is necessary must go unspoken by the President

    That’s quite an argument for oligarchy you’ve got there.
    .
    We can’t even share with you the reasons why what we do is necessary for your safety.
    .
    Do you ever consider that a big reason why your kind of Democrat (not mine) has such problems holding office the minute after people have forgotten how badly the rightists f*ck things up is because of that ideological posture, Joe Klein?
    .
    It’s so funny how much common cause the technocrat center has with the looney rightists in this regard.
    .
    We on the left have this idea –strange to you in the DLC center, Joe Klein, we know– that the state is accountable to the people of this country, and that the purpose of government is to perform our will.
    .
    The people in power aren’t there to make up secret reasons why they should do what’s best for us proles, they are there to accomplish the goals we laid out for them prior to election, some of which include disentangling ourselves from these international situations, simplifying our relationships, and ceasing hemorrhaging our money down a black hole.
    .
    That you have to trot out McGovern to discredit the left –he hasn’t been speaking for us for decades now, people don’t even know who he is– is indicative of how out of step you and the center is with ordinary folks.
    .
    You’re probably right about one thing: Afghanistan is no VietNam, it’s just…f*cking Afghanistan.
    .
    Then we had a president with a secret plan to end a war, now we have a president with a secret plan to continue one.
    .
    Why don’t you just admit that you and the rest of the center despise democracy even more than the rightists, Joe Klein?

  • pintortwo

    (The Taliban) allowed Al Qaeda safe havens to plan attacks on us…
    .
    Al Qaeda was in Afghanistan because we set them up there, with elaborate complexes and bunkers, to resist Russia. For the life of me I can’t understand why al Qaeda would need Afghanistan again. Bin Laden is a wealthy Saudi, Mohamed Atta was educated in Germany and trained in the US. They don’t need that miserable stretch of rubble. It’s too hot now anyway, satellites are watching everywhere. We should only hope that, should al Qaeda re-group, it is in Afghanistan- that way we’ll see it and can attack without concerns for the host’s sovereignty. Further, AQ is well armed, well funded and had fortified bunkers. The Taliban are poorly armed, unsophisticated tribes. I doubt they could have just handed bin Laden over.
    .
    The Pakistanis are absolutely convinced that if the U.S. leaves Afghanistan, India will jump in.
    .
    Are you sure or just guessing? I think that the nuclear capabilities of both countries greatly lessen the chances that India (or Pakistan) becomes aggressive.
    .
    our departure would empower the more radical elements of the Pakistani military and intelligence services–not merely in their support of the Taliban, but also, potentially, in their ability to stage an Islamist coup d’etat.
    .
    Attacking the Taliban will cause refugees to flee into Pakistan, socio-economic turmoil and collateral damage. It is counterproductive. It will only further radicalize Pakistan and create anti-American sympathy.
    .
    More directly, a continued U.S. presence in Afghanistan means that the Pakistani military will low-ball its support for the Afghan Taliban.
    .
    Presence = soldiers. US attacks will cause civilian deaths especially from unmanned Predator Drones- we have plenty of examples. These attacks will increase Taliban support.
    .
    U.S. military presence in the region gives strength, and credibility, to the most important work that needs to be done–the diplomatic efforts to lower the temperature between Pakistan and India.
    .
    Let diplomats handle diplomatic efforts, not soldiers.
    .
    There is no guarantee that any of this will work. Indeed, there is a very good chance that it will not.
    .
    It is virtually guaranteed not to work. Karzai will never be legitimate. No Afghani government will reach the most remote areas. Our involvement will only drag on indefinitely.
    .
    But this is a situation that carries huge national security implications for the United States.
    .
    Pakistani nukes are important. But the Taliban are interested in local politics only. If nuclear material and a trigger and a means of deployment were smuggled out of Pakistan, that would be a fail of our intelligence community. If they were smuggled into the US, that would be a fail of Homeland Security. If it were somehow used in a US city, that would be a fail of local police. And it would have nothing to do with our troops.
    .
    Was this post ghost-written by Krauthammer?

  • abdullah69

    Sorry,but that does not cut it in a place like Indonesia where casual acceptance of other religious faiths is the norm. In fact one is far more like to encounter a Christian fundamentalist than a Muslim one. Corruption is probably worse there now than during the Soeharto years simply because the growth and empowerment of a middle class has expanded the numbers willing to practise it.

  • destor23

    If any of this India/Pakistan stuff was a legitimate reason for us to continue the war in Afghanistan then it would have made sense for us to have sent troops in prior to 9/11.

    Whatever happened to destroying Al-Qaeda and capturing Bin-Laden?

    Joe, I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with your analysis of India or Pakistan but it’s not right in a democracy where the military answers to the civilian population to have wars for “reasons that can’t be said.” If the people can’t be told why we’re doing something (so they can give their approval or not) then we shouldn’t be doing it.

  • jcapan

    Firstly, I have no problem with McGovern speaking up for the left.

    Secondly, as blogwhore Fury mentions, pipelines are one of the “best arguments about why this war is necessary” as is geopolitical positioning vis a vis Russia and China. Joe’s son at state knows all about this, the PR spin that must be leant to intricacies of empire. The media is complicit in this discourse of spin.

    The other Greenwald made a pitch perfect docu on this subject a few months back–it’s still worth a world of Joe Kleins (i.e. propagandists).

    http://rethinkafghanistan.com/videos.php

  • pintortwo

    The Project for a New American Century, in the paper Rebuilding America’s Defenses, lists as one of its Core Missions: “perform the ‘constabulary’ duties associated with shaping the security environment in critical regions”. Afghanistan fulfills this mission with regard to SE Asia.
    .
    Joe and his very serious colleagues can offer their smart analysis; meanwhile the neocons count the spoils. Joe has learned nothing from 2003 when he and his peers were led by the nose into legitimizing an illegitimate war.

  • abdullah69

    You mean South – West Asia.

    “…security environment in critical regions”. I am not sure what this means. Security for whom? Critical to whom? The local population? I don’t think so.

    Guys like Joe peddle the idealistic philosophies. At best these reflect a naive belief that the world would be a much better place if everybody just copied the US. At worst they are a highly cynical cover for the commercial and strategic adventurism which the US has practiced for so long.

    When Joe writes an article pointing out the fallacy (not to mention cost in healthcare and educational terms to the American people) of maintaining a military which so far exceeds any other nation on the planet, then I would be prepared to believe he leans to the former rather than the latter.

  • Paul-no not that one

    I have been presented no evidence that would lead me to accept any prescription about foreign affairs from Joe Klein.

    He listens to his uniformly hawkish sources and comes to the same conclusion every time. (Even when it was “Just a slip on TV about invading Iraq. I swear!”)

    It was fun to see Joe mention the lie that escalated Viet Nam followed by making his case using, by Joe’s own admission, a worst case scenario that he deems at least “more plausible”.

    The sun rising in the East, Joe hating teachers’ unions and Joe cheering someone else fighting and dying are three certainties.

  • pintortwo

    US Navy Commander Jeff Huber (link) on Afghanistan before Obama’s decision to “surge”:

    We no sooner need to deploy troops to Afghanistan than we need to deploy them to Pluto. Al-Qaeda is all but gone from everywhere, and who gives a rat’s rhetoric about the Taliban? The Taliban just wants us to leave Afghanistan.
    (…)
    I’m hoping Obama has finally realized that Afghanistan is a bad investment, and that he can’t fix a violent, corrupt country by pouring arms and money into it. Unfortunately, I don’t think he’s there yet.
    .
    I also don’t think he’s reached the point where he’s ready to stand up to his generals and his Secretary of Defense. The singular failing of the Obama presidency may turn out to be that he kept David Petraeus, Ray Odierno, Mike Mullen, and Robert Gates on the job and that he put Petraeus protégé McChrystal, who was Dick Cheney’s personal assassin, in charge of Afghanistan.
    .
    The open warfare between the Pentagon and the White House needs to be stomped, and the White House needs to have won. The egotistical four-stars and their stooge boss Gates got too used to the idea that they ran the country, and that kind of thinking in military circles has to stop… We don’t exist to support our military. Our military exists to support us, and it’s not doing a very good job of it. It creates more terrorists than it kills or captures.
    .
    Our military has turned putrid. We did pretty darn good during the post Desert Storm years when we leaned largely on naval and air forces to show the flag and perform surgical strikes. Boots on the ground have led to quagmires in Iraq and Afghanistan, just as they did in Vietnam.
    .
    The last thing we want to do is put tens of thousands more boots in Afghanistan. We’ve already made this mistake in Korea and Vietnam and Iraq. How many more times will we make it?

  • repzak

    Probably mainly because those were in general the poorest and most unstable countries to begin with, and they don’t really have anyone to lean on. Eastern Europe is not really doing ALL that hot either even here 20 years after the wall fell, but they at least have a lot of financial and moral support in Western Europe (and the US).
    .
    Who did the Muslim countries have to lean on for support and help? There has been no strong and rich Muslim country since the colonial times to be Big Brother to them.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Joe has a ready answer for those that question pintortwo-
    .
    “I realize that some commenters here are almost universally opposed to the use of American force overseas”
    .
    Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/12/10/a-noble-lecture/#comments#ixzz0ZcUScdVU

  • repzak

    I actually agree with JK’s basic premise – that an Afghan/Vietnam comparison is invalid. Now an Iraq/Vietnam comparison I’ll buy any day – but there were very good reasons for the war in Afghanistan. There never was in Iraq or Vietnam.

    Whether those good reasons still exist is debatable – certainly – although I think it’s worth at least this one more shot – done by a President and government that actually want to succeed, and not the bumbling incompetence of the Bush administration. Until it’s been tried it’s simply not fair to rule out the possibility of success, even if it’s gotten 10 times as hard because of the 7 years of neglect.

    But no matter what it’s still not Vietnam, because that was a mistake from start to end.

  • abdullah69

    Turkey, as a colonial power, has turned itself around after the collapse of its empire, surely a sign of strength, whatever the Europeans may say. As for wealth, the entire Middle East has been awash with dollars since the Yom Kippur war, yet although per capita GDP has increased immensely, the median income of the average Joe, or Mohammed, has not.

    Further on sacredh’s response, if Muslims took the basic tenet of zagat too seriously, then there would be no corruption in Islamic countries period. But this is no different from other religions where the majority of practitioners pick and choose the particular rules they wish to follow. How many people who would otherwise call themselves Jewish enjoy a ham sandwich or covet their neighbour’s ass for example?

  • repzak

    Turkey is probably the best bet for a “strong” Muslim nation, but:
    .
    1) It’s not really that stable. I don’t have the number of coups it’s experienced in it’s short history, but it’s quite a few.
    2) It’s (been) a very secular nation which causes it to be isolated from the rest of the Muslim world. A lot of Muslims don’t actually consider Turkey to be a Muslim country – and a lot of Turks don’t really think fo themselves having much in common with more religious nations either. All that may or may not be changing lately, but Turkey has certainly not been the “big brother” for the Muslim world like the US has been for the West in modern history.
    .
    And yes – all religions seem exceptionally good at ignoring “impractical” tenets of their religion that they don’t like and only follow those that they do like.

  • http://localtiding.com/us/the-morning-plum/ The Morning Plum

    [...] Joe Klein takes on George McGovern’s Vietnam [...]

  • rayrice4

    I am not qualified in the history of Afghan/Pakistan/Indian conflicts.( except KIpling)This dialog is commendable in clarifying the isues.Thank you!!

  • Joe Klein

    Cliff–Obama laid out this rationale in an interview with me toward the end of the presidential campaign in October, 2008. I wrote then that Obama’s knowledge of the regional dynamics was impressive. You should look it up. The byplay between India and Pakistan in Afghanistan and, of course, Kashmir, is well known. So this is nothing new. It is, however, a sensitive subject…and it vastly complicates the President’s ability to make a clear case for a continuing U.S. presence in Afghanistan. But it is, truly, at the heart of the matter.

  • pintortwo

    Paul- I think this is Joe’s way as writing-off those against the Afghanistan war as non-serious. It is not about being “almost universally opposed to the use of American force overseas”, it is whether or not we should peruse this use of force. Joe, as I’m sure you realize, is knocking down straw-men.

  • pintortwo

    Stated another way, Imagine if John McCain were President and Randy Scheunemann were the national Security advisor. It’s something for progressives to think about when they consider ways to punish Obama for being the same DNC style centrist he always was….
    .
    Yes PD, that’s a good point (you could have added John Bolton, Max Boot and Bill Kristol to that advisory/cabinet list too). However, keep in mind that Petraeus, McChrystal, Odierno, Mike Mullen, and Robert Gates are still calling the shots. Under Bush, we now know, neoconservative theory dominated foreign policy (ie. oil status quo will keep the US the sole superpower). There is no reason to expect that the military’s mission has changed as military affairs continue to be crafted by Bush holdovers. Also, the same “experts” are still on-the-air and in print advising the “smart” way forward- despite how universally wrong and deceitful they’ve been proven to be.
    .
    This is one reason why I linked to Huber bellow (#17). In the article he mentions some positive decisions by Obama (from the link): Talking to Iran was one of them. Cancelling the Bush administration’s rope-a-dope deal to deploy a missile defense system that didn’t work to Poland and the Czech Republic was another one. Committing to leave Iraq was also good, though I’m not sure the Pentagon and its paramours in Congress and the press are going to let that happen. That’s good, and we probably wouldn’t have seen it from a McCain admin. But to me the most pertinent part of Huber’s piece is when he calls the decision NOT to clean house Obama’s greatest singular failing.

  • sacredh

    abdullah69: I should have been more precise and said that they take their religion far too serious but like our own extremists they interpret only the parts they can twist to justify their actions in their own minds.

  • jymallyn

    McGovern is WRONG and so are you regarding the lie of the “Gulf of Tonkin” resolution.

    Tragically only Wayne Morse (D) of Oregon voted against the resolution at the time it was steam-rollered by Johnson and McNamara.

    The problem is NOT that Afghanistan will become “another Vietnam” but rather it will become another Cambodia. Our excoursion into Vietnam allowed the anti-literate Pol Pot to destroy his own country much like the Taliban want to do.

    Thank you Joe Klein for explaining this.

  • pintortwo

    Joe, thank you for staying involved. But I’m just not buying the argument. We’re spending billions on Afghanistan’s infrastructure, trillions (potentially) on military operations, and putting tens-of-thousands of young Americans in harm’s way in order to build an Afghani government and security force because Pakistan is worried that India covets Afghanistan? Regardless of what Obama may have said, that doesn’t make sense. Diplomats can better handle “(t)he byplay between India and Pakistan in Afghanistan” at a fraction of the price. What about Pakistan and India’s nuclear capabilities- wouldn’t that lessen the chance incursion into Afghanistan? -wouldn’t that cause other world powers to increase diplomatic pressure toward non-aggression? And what about oil? -no mention?
    .
    Obama employs many of the same military planners and advisers as the previous administration. Yet we are to believe that their mission has changed mid-stream? Today’s “the Taliban can smuggle Pakistani nukes to al Qaeda” is yesterday’s “Saddam can get WMDs to al Qaeda” which, to me, is simply cover for the neoconservative agenda. Am I wrong?

  • http://blogs.geniocity.com/rosenberg/2009/12/war-and-peace-time-and-patience-the-afghan-surge/ Inexact Possibilities: Politics at the Cutting Edge » Blog Archive » War and Peace, Time and Patience: The Afghan Surge

    [...] But unless we are heartless we must ask: withdrawal at what cost? Aside from a small buffer from the remaining external forces (who would see it as betrayal), Afghanistan would almost certainly be plunged into a state of anarchy and bloodshed. Our enemies in the region (al Qaeda, the Taliban) would be empowered. The American military would lose faith in their commander-in-chief, who would have expressly contradicted the recommendations of his top military advisors, not to mention broken a clear campaign promise. The political fallout for President Obama would be sharp; “surrender” would once again be the most popular word on Fox News. And who knows what would happen in Pakistan? Would it respond with a newfound responsibility for the region, or with more of the same corrupt apathy? Would the regime even survive? There is a reason it has been called the “Af-Pak” strategy. What begins in Afghanistan surely does not end there. [...]

  • http://www.FreetheGods.com David Scott

    Everybody knows that the only reason US troops are in Afghanistan, is to keep the opium fields in full production. Until we remove all our troops from the middle-east, and do something to solve our problems at home, our reputation in every country is ruined. If I could afford to go anywhere after the damage the neoconservative war/profit-mongers have done to our economy, I would definitely say I was from Canada. I invite you to my pages devoted to raising awareness on these important issues: http://pltcldscsn.blogspot.com/

  • dmseattle

    Joes Klein says “There is no guarantee that any of this will work. Indeed, there is a very good chance that it will not.”

    Huh!!??

    If it is not likely that what we are doing will work then why do it? Sounds asinine to do it — especially when there are other tactical approaches which might work.

  • pilot22a

    What was to “invade?” It didn’t look like a country before we invaded, and still doesn’t look like one.

    It appears to be a collection of tribes, at best, and if all accounts are reliable, was inhabited by a religious/political group of loosely knit men called Taliban.

    We will beat them back, as the Russians successfully did, and as soon as we leave, (as the Russians eventually did) the vacuum will be filled by the same ilk.

  • abdullah69

    All that will happen if the US leaves Afghanistanistan is that Afghans stop killing Americans and start killing the Chinese who will be sent to protect Chinese investments instead.

    Whether the Afghans would see off the Chinese like they have the British, the Soviets and the Americans, is only mildly interesting.

  • http://threewisemenblog.com/2009/12/15/bad-arguments-for-fighting-in-afghanistan/ Bad Arguments for Fighting in Afghanistan |

    [...] Arguments for Fighting in Afghanistan December 15, 2009 | Posted by Xanthippas This Joe Klein piece is a doozy (via Glenn Greenwald): Let’s start with a fact: the Indian Embassy in Kabul has [...]

  • nostromoatthedailyrazor

    The USA should not be in Afghanistan in the first place. After 911, the USA demanded that the Taliban hand over Osama bin Laden. They asked for evidence of his involvement which the USA could not produce since they had none. There is still no evidence that bin Laden was involved in the crimes of 911 (though we know he was involved in other attacks around the world – not enough reason to invade a country). It is plain to see that the USA justified the invasion of Afghanistan with the infamous speech given by Bush Jr., the most notable part being “if you are not with us, then you are against us”. This is criminal and only the worst of aggressors in this world could make such a statement. The Taliban asked for evidence and this simple act defied the American war machine. It’s no secret that Afghanistan is coveted for it’s geographic position. 911 and the Taliban are merely excuses for moving American military might into the region. What’s the benefit of American military adventurism in the Middle East? Ask Israel why Mossad allowed 911 to happen.

    nostromo at The Daily Razor

  • theotherjimmyolson

    Oceana is different.

  • http://aroundthesphere.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/one-of-the-longest-running-beefs-in-the-blogosphere-continues/ One Of The Longest Running Beefs In The Blogosphere Continues… « Around The Sphere

    [...] Joe Klein at Swampland at Time: Afghanistan is different. There are familiar arguments about why this is so–we invaded them because they allowed Al Qaeda safe havens to plan attacks on us, for example. It can also be argued that while the Viet Minh were a national liberation army with broad popular support, the Taliban represent only one Afghan ethnic faction, the Pashtuns, and they are not very popular even among their own people. But some of the best arguments about why this war is necessary must go unspoken by the President. They involve Pakistan and India. Let me lay them out briefly: [...]

  • http://rashtrakut.com/blog/2009/12/16/pakistans-continuing-unwillingness-to-relinquish-its-militant-assets/ Rashtrakut » Blog Archive » Pakistan’s continuing unwillingness to relinquish its militant “assets”

    [...] past.  Instead as many observers including this blog have noted, it remains steeped in denial and paranoia about Indian intentions in Afghanistan.  It is much easier to engage in tit for tat blame of India [...]

  • http://justbcynical.wordpress.com/2009/12/17/kasmir-and-such/ Kasmir and Such « Justin Baldassare, Vermont Cynic

    [...] under Foreign Policy | Tags: Afghanistan, Foreign Policy, Pakistan | Leave a Comment  Joe Klein has a good post on why the Afghanistan/Vietnam comparison is silly and completely un-nuanced. You [...]

  • http://rumblegumption.wordpress.com/2009/12/27/links-for-2009-12-26/ links for 2009-12-26 « Rumblegumption

    [...] McGovern on Afghanistan – Swampland – TIME.com [...]

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