Creative Conservatism

Joe, thx for Gov. Daniels profile link. Given post’s late hour, are you in Oslo or are you simply a night owl like Amy and Jay (and me)? Also, where are KT, Jay, and Kate hiding? Few posts lately when we have a senate compromise deal brewing – what gives?
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I like the HSA idea for placing choice and control of HC in our hands, similar to IRA’s (not 401ks). Except… we still need cost controls / caps, limit fee-for-service stuff, etc. When biz’s sell cars, hamburgers, or prom dresses, the more they sell the better. This doesn’t work so well with HC – extra tests, procedures, more costs. (Try building a house or shopping mall for cost plus instead of fixed fee. Watch your wallet.)
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Also, one year we can be healthy, the next not, unlike IRA’s where we have a fixed timeframe to invest for. So if part of the solution, HSA’s need LOTS of liquid assets to cover volatile short term horizons. We’d need huge amts. of subsidies (or as rw’s would whine, handouts) and tight cost limits. Even worse, whither those right now out of work and can’t kick in? My late night thoughts are done; what are yours, Joe? thx

Huh. Another government-controlled health care plan, one loved by conservatives. Let’s see how this works, according to Kaiser Family Foundation.

-A Medicaid-waiver program, it covers uninsured parents and other adults to 200% FPL who are not eligible for employer-based, Medicare, or Medicaid coverage.

-It has a high deductible — $1,100 after which coverage is $300k annual or $1 million lifetime.

- the deductible is covered by a so-called POWER account to cover the $1,100 deductible, paid b the enrollee through a health savings plan, possibly supplemented by an employer, and is administered by the enrollee’s managed care plan.

-To obtain and maintain coverage, premiums range from 2-5% of income, the rest is subsidized by the state, after the deductible is paid.

-If a payment is missed, the individual loses coverage, forfeits 25% of the POWER account contribution, and is barred from re-enrolling for 12 months.

Hmm. Pretty draconian. Sounds like something only a Republican or an upper-middle-class power elite (or wannabe) living in Washington DC who have Cadillac health insurance paid by as a cushy perk by their extravagant employers and who are never at risk of losing their considerably comfortable cocktail-party-circuit lifestyle. Little wonder that Joe jumps on this bandwagon, without a clue, once again, what he is advocating for, except that Republicans like it so it must be good.

Healthy Indiana Plan: Key Facts and Issues – Kaiser Family Foundation

The difference is, see, that *I* present actual facts and analysis by a reputable, non-partisan source of health care research, while Joe Klein takes the word of some opinionated columnist wanker without a shred of knowledge or expertise on this or any other subject, and assumes that the plan must be good because the Republicans like it. Joe makes 10 times what I do by wanking out this kind of stuff, while it took me all of, say, 30 minutes of internet time to find out what the plan is about. What *do* these Time Mag people *do* all day long to earn their considerable salaries supplemented by cushy perks like their Cadillac health plans? I ask you.

The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me.

They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government;
they have only a talent for getting and holding office.

H. L. Mencken (1880 – 1956)
http://japan-russia.jimdo.com/syndicate-ii/

Okay, let’s put the cost of this program in Joe Klein dollars. Joe Klein makes around $200 grand a year, sitting around the office reading and parroting Washington Post wankers like Pearlstein and Republicans like Joe Hoekstra and typing up a column a week, 800 words or so, plus a few blog posts. A hard, but satisfying life, no doubt.

So 200% poverty for a single person is around $21,666 per year, $1805 per month. (Source: 2009 Federal Poverty Level). So Klein makes about 10 times what the person eligible for the Healthy Indiana Plan makes. Let’s not get into essential vs discretionary dollars spent, and go for a straight comparison.

- Joe’s deductible would be ~ $11,000 which he would pay in health care costs before the plan kicked in. This is the so-called “spending account.”

- His premiums range from 2-5% of income, $4,000 to $10,000, or $333 to $833 per month. This for ONE person, not for a family, okay?

And this AFTER he pays out $11,000 per year as a deductible.

Of course, he’d lose that $11 grand if he missed *one* of those payments, plus all his health care for a full year. Hope he doesn’t have a chronic disease, and got laid off, or his family had an emergency, or a car accident or something that rendered him temporarily unable to come up with his $833 per month payment. And I hope he doesn’t need any expensive meds either. Why are Republicans always so damned punitive?

How is this plan a good “creative” Republican plan for people at the 200% FPL? In Joe Klein dollars, they are paying the equivalent of $21,000 per year in health care out of pocket, around 10% of their income. Now probably that wouldn’t hurt Joe Klein so much, to shell out 10% of his income on health care every year. I’ll bet he doesn’t shell out at least 33% of his income on housing costs ($66,000 Joe Klein dollars per year) like us rabble do, or 15% on top of that to pay back a student loan (30,000 Joe Klein Dollars).

So probably shelling out $21,000 out of pocket dollars per year wouldn’t be painful to the Washington elite Joe Kleins of the world, but of course, they don’t shell out that kind of money for health care anyway. It’s all paid by Time Mag as a perk they get for just being themselves. Even their employers don’t shell out that kind of money for health care costs for the Joe Kleins of the world.

James,
Your calculation, while very helpful doesn’t take into account one fact. While there’s no upper limit to how much money you can have, there is a lower limit to how little you can have and a non-zero amount you need to spend daily to stay alive. So while your back-of-the-envelope calculation helps add perspective on how relatively expensive the Indiana plan is, it doesn’t do full justice to the dire straits you’re poverty level example remains in.

After all, at 200K per year, JK could blow 75% of his income on health care and still live comfortably.

The one good thing about health savings accounts is that it is certainly more desirable for young, healthy adults than traditional plans, especially since there are usually mechanisms to get your money back out in some form.
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However I am not terribly certain how beneficial it would be to everyone else on a larger scale considering how often the “catastrophic” insurance would kick in. Plus, given the economy and the rate of foreclosure, it would seem somewhat impossible to ethically enforce that “one out” system on a national scale.
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We’re back to the whole “don’t get sick, or if you do, die quickly” thing.

Time to repost something I said a few months ago:

The entire theory behind medical insurance existing is that the healthy subsidize the sick. If that weren’t the case there would be no value in insurance in the first place. Everyone could keep a savings account for the money they’ll need when they succumb. What insurance offers, is the opportunity for someone who gets sick unexpectedly to draw out of the pool before they’ve paid in fully. Insurers guarantee themselves that they collect more in premiums than they pay in benefits and pocket the difference in administrative costs and profits. Obviously the notion of a ‘fair share’ under a system where the healthy already pay in more than enough to cover the sick AND the overhead is absurd on its face. Yes the young pay more than their fair share. That’s the whole point of insurance.

To reiterate, without young healthy people paying in, Insurance has no value whatsoever.

Following on PD: Why do we treat health care as a for profit business? As long as profit is a motive we can be sure that a large pool of people will not be able to afford healthcare. We have politicised anything and everything to the point at which we render a number of our citizens helpless when it comes to providing health care for themselves.

Totally agree, Paul. Any kind of real comparison of Rabble Dollars vs. Joe Klein Dollars spent on health insurance is beyond my skills, and I tried to get to the essence of what you are saying by observing the “essential vs discretionary dollars spent.” But you are entirely correct.

Joe Klein- Your head must have exploded when you saw that your beloved Obamessiah only polls 6% ahead of Bush while 44% of Americans prefer Bush to Obama. How’s that hope and change working for ya Joe?

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1209/Bush_closes_the_gap.html

Large majorities of American’s believed that Saddam had WMD’s. It’s not uncommon for significant fractions of Americans to be absolutely wrong.

Paul, I’d add one thing — it’s not that insurance companies have to take in more in premiums than they pay out on claims. That’s not how they make money. The insurance company has the privilege of holding onto the pool of capital. It’s their job to invest that wisely so that the return on the capital outpaces claims. Big difference there.

Well yeah health savings accounts and all. How much are you going to be able to save every month? $200? So that’s $2400 in your health savings account. You know how far that goes? That’s like, one MRI. $400 a month? $4800 a year. It cost around $10,000 for prenatal care, labor and delivery without complications, or around $1,111 for every month of pregnancy, IF IF IF there are no complications like preterm birth, which is about 10% of pregnancies. Broken ankle? Around $4000. And guess what, you may be out of work for awhile. that would kind of put the kids on the concept of saving into your “health savings account” yes?

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Plus, if you don’t spent the health savings account money and take it back out, it is taxed. So if you are lucky to not have any medical expenses for the year, you get it in the other end with a tax bill. Nice.

Terrible number of typos. Sorry. But hey, it’s early.

Hmm here’s something else about HSAs

In 2009, you can contribute up to $3,000 to an HSA if you have self-only coverage or up to $5,950 for family coverage. If you’re 55 or older, you can contribute an extra $1,00 in 2009.

Health Savings Account Answers – Kiplinger.com
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Doesn’t seem like it’s the answer to lack of health insurance, even for the young and the healthy. Don’t play sports, don’t drive anywhere, don’t risk injury, don’t have appendicitis, use a condom (always, anyways), don’t let the kid get sick.

Could it be that the drug companies, medical device companies and equipment companies would nto take the risk of any new product just for fun?

And one need not look any further than the beliefs of liberals

Main Entry: 1 ad hominem
Pronunciation: \(ˈ)ad-ˈhä-mə-ˌnem, -nəm\
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin, literally, to the person
Date: 1598
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by or being an attack on an opponent’s character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
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Par for the course for you, eh? No substance, just more “bloviating”………..

Should have appeared here the first time.
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Main Entry: 1 ad hominem
Pronunciation: \(ˈ)ad-ˈhä-mə-ˌnem, -nəm\
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin, literally, to the person
Date: 1598
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by or being an attack on an opponent’s character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
..
..
Par for the course for you, eh? No substance, just more “bloviating”………..

Don’t be fooled by conservatives who sound intelligent. It’s all part of their new marketing strategy:

http://bit.ly/fxv3G

(satire)

diecash1

Apparently there are no mirrors in your house.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/71719-reid-cancels-new-orleans-fundraiser
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Does Reid have any shame? I mean, come on, the guy links the GOP to Dem filibustering civil rights, and then whines because the GOP is mocking him for yapping about doing healthcare 24/7 and then wanting to bail for a fundraiser. Talk about pathetic.
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Of course, the Swamp posters have nothing to say about it–although I have to give MS props for linking the Breitbart stuff about Kevin Jennings. Funny that some of the true believers in here still defend Kevin Jennings. Guys, when the guy you defend apparently was cool with a kid cruising men’s rooms (no word if the Larry Craig tactic was used), you’re gonna have a problem. (And note the double standard with Jennings and Foley.) In any event, if Jennings is so pure, let’s see a Dem up for re-election in 2010 come out and support him–heck let’s see them answer a basic question–”Is Kevin Jennings an acceptable choice for school safety czar?”

Scherer linked to Breitbart? Really?

That’s hilarious.

Oh, I have plenty to say about your error in political history, spob.
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Let’s be clear here, make no mistake:
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The Democrats that filibustered Civil Rights legislation later became GOP stalwarts after losing the Civil Rights battles, and carried on a rear guard action in the form of a GOP strategy called Southern Strategy.
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I appreciated your candor and honesty regarding the mixed marriage case, and saw much that made me reconsider you as an individual.
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Don’t spoil it by trying to perpetuate Southern Strategy myths, spob. It’s time everyone outgrew that ridiculousness in this, The Year Of Our Lord, 2009.

I think freeinpa’s comment:
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“And one need not look any further than the beliefs of liberals”
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Obviously is a case of this portion of the definition as well:
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“2: marked by or being an attack on an opponent’s character rather than by an answer to the contentions made”
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As it is clear that freeinpa never attempted to rebut the issue of how most Americans came to believe that there were WMD in Iraq.

Last I checked 53_3, Senator Byrd had a “(D)” after his name.
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And last I checked, the last GOP bigwig who got nostalgic for segregation (Trent Lott) was booted from his leadership role.
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I’d say it’s time YOU gave up the myths about “conservatives are racists”. Given Akron, Denver, Buffalo and some other places which you don’t hear about, racism in America is certainly not solely a Southern white thing. Perhaps, just perhaps, 53_3, you need to wake up to the fact that times have changed.

Thanks for mentioning the Breitbart cite spob. I, as is often the case, skipped right over MS’s musings.

You really outdid yourself in the comments and I would have missed it.

Thanks again, I will nominate you for a Medal of Honor.

Yes he did. Gotta love Kevin Jennings–to say nothing else, he is a man of conviction.

There is that computer again spitting out Blah blah blah blah blah

…left out of the debates again, figures.

For Christmas by another book for mom to read to IQ0.0 so he can post on something other than the SOUTHERN STRATEGY. It is in nearly every post as he is the self proclaimed expert on how only conservatives are racists.

Lol. I sat on a ship during Desert Storm (after the main shooting stopped too), so no MOH for me.

freep, 53_3 is bright (anyone who can talk extemporaneously about Earth’s geological history is bright). But that just makes his posts in here even worse—there is no one so blind as those who will not see.

http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-local_seals_1208dec08,0,4436865.story
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Seems that the Navy SEALS in the dock for allegedly punching a terrorist should be getting some Swampland play . . . .

Health savings accounts. If you need to see a doctor, just save up for it. Disgusting.
I won’t cricize the term “no-nothing.” The spelling may be inaccurate, but the characterization of Republican attitudes is dead on.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/12/11/pakistan.arrests/index.html
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Here’s an update on those patriotic Americans detained in Pakistan. Glad they’re there and not here.

spob, spob, spob,,,
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Robert Byrd recanted, and has even stated clearly that he made the biggest mistake in his life. Wallace recanted, and is highly respected in the Black community for it.
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What I stated very clearly stands, spob, and I’ll back up with a link:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/books/phillips-southern.pdf
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071302342.html
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So spob, are you gonna stop this cr@p?
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Grow up, this is 2009.

I’m done here. Not going to afflict the rest of the blogites with any more debates on the issue.
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I’ve put up, and it’s clear that neither of you are able to counter it. FOXworld won’t help you.
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At this point I will let others decide whether freeinpa’s and spob’s chorus of Nyah, nyahnyahnyah nyah, I can’t hear you outweighs the facts.

decon:
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While you recognize what I call “personal responsibility”, that is for each of us to take responsibility of our own individual health care needs, and the financial cost. You then quickly go to the liberal talking points that it is either “too complicated to be managed, or you feel that it is a ‘right’ that everyone should have and the government to pay for it”.
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Part of the discussion and debate I have seen in other venues is that “you will never get a good handle on the overall costs of health care unless you get people involved with the management of the costs.
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Meaning, what better way than to have the patient directly involved in payment and management of their health care costs. I believe if people were more aware of the charges that Doctors and Hospitals charge, we can then have the patient begin to question those charges. A patient can look at the hospital and say, “hey, I have X dollars to spend, and you are charging me double the cost of an MRI than what a person in Japan pays, why?”.
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So far in our country, people simply have insurance. They get one of those letters that says “This is not a bill”, and they quickly throw it into the garbage. If it said “This is a bill, you should review, because we are going to charge you double what it actually costs”, more people would begin to question the providers. Ask why this test or that procedure was ordered. More control to the individual, instead of letting Uncle Sam dictate who does what.
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While I do not agree with Gov Daniel’s take on health care reform. I do agree with anything that gives more responsibility to the individual to manage their own health care costs / needs. Once these types of reforms are put into place, then look at how it will be paid for.

You said it was a myth that the filibuster was Dem led–it was.
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You can bring up the Southern Strategy all you want and the recantation of Byrd and Wallace all you want, but I have not perpetuated a myth.
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In any event, the battles of the 70s and 80s are over. And racism is increasingly less of a white thing and increasingly more of a minority thing. Let’s deal with that issue. See Akron, Denver, Buffalo and Long Beach.

I think Klein was doing a play on words.

The reason why Republicans are so punitive, is at the heart of the conservative philosophy is the belief that the individual is inherently bad, It’s actually the major difference between conservative and liberals. So as tempting as it is sometimes to look at centrists and claim that there isn’t a dimes worth of difference between the two parties, you might want to rethink that assertion.
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While Liberals recognize that human beings aren’t perfect, their policies reflect a belief that with the helpful hand of government individuals can reach their full potential which is basically good. Of course, despite their constant mantra about the rights of the individual, there’s nothing that frightens conservatives more than the idea of the empowered American.
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Whether its Americans newly empowered to exercise their vote (ACORN), or women exercising their right to choose, we scare the bejesus out of these people. That fear is what fuels their hatred of Obama. He represents a return to the belief that the individual can be empowered when the helping hand of government relieves them of burdens that are lighter and more manageable when shared. And if Obama is proven right, and more begin to reach their full potential, then who in their right mind would ever allow themselves to be controlled by these boot quakers again? Let’s not forget that the last time they were in this situation voters made Roosevelt president for life — it’s not as if an amendment once done can’t be undone.
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Now conservatives can have their Hobbesian view of the world. And they are obviously welcome to look at anything they want through the prism of fear. But they should know that while they are busy expecting the worst from their fellow citizens, the rest of us our trying to reinvent ourselves for the brave new future. They can continue to focus only on policies that attempt to restrain behavior rather than empower it. But that kind of focus only sets them up as hypocrites trying to dictate a morality that they themselves will never live up to. While on the other hand Liberals, will always be seen as the ones who sought, however imperfectly, to empower individuals and lighten their burden so they could achieve and flourish. Ultimately, conservatives will find as their numbers continue to dwindle — that Machiavelli was wrong. It is better to be loved when to win you need to be emulated.
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The Navy SEAL trial is a great mistake by Obama’s military decisions. As CIC he should be calling whomever is in charge with this and demanding that the “court marshall” be stopped immediately.
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A Terrorist is caught. He gets a boo-boo, and he screams “abuse and torture”. How much of this do we have to take?
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No matter how loud the liberals and progressives scream on here, TERRORIST DO NOT HAVE ANY LEGAL RIGHTS IN AMERICA THAT ARE GIVEN TO THEM BY OUR CONSTITUTION!!!
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But, our military men and women DO have rights, and should have our utmost respect!

bitter- The nation’s collective health should be considered the government’s obligation in order to protect us; same as Armed Forces, Coast Guard, firefighting, disaster relief, Homeland Security, etc. With 45,000 Americans dying each year due to a lack of insurance, it is a crisis. The answer to your question: Why do we treat health care as a for profit business? is, in short, money.The insurance cos dole it out to politicians and news outlets.
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free- Drug, devise, and equipment cos develop new products to be profitable, not because for-profit companies provide health insurance. If we paid insurance premiums to the government, the cos you mention would still want to be profitable and we’d still choose the best products available. Drug cos don’t want a public option because they don’t want to negotiate prices. The media and politicians are, for the most part, against a public option because insurance and drug companies pump ridiculous cash into their coffers in the form of advertising and re-election funds.
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It relates to Paul’s point about WMDs. Some think Saddam had them because the people that wanted to invade Iran lied about it. They were able to then use their willing (or plain lazy) allies in the media to propagandize. This same relationship diminishes the prospect of having a legitimate debate on Healthcare today.

The Jennings smear = the latest right-wing “scandal” to flop in the mainstream

http://mediamatters.org/blog/200912110008

2 : marked by or being an attack on an opponent’s character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
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Par for the course for you, eh? No substance, just more “bloviating”………..

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If you have been on this site for any length of time diecash, you would know that the “marked by or being an attack on an opponet’s character” IS always the tactic of the 3rd Graders who comment on this site. They know who they are, isn’t that right IQ53?
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Go back through the multitude of threads and just have a look for yourself and see who starts all the 3rd Grade name calling on this blog.
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It is exclusively the liberals who begin or even start off with “ad hominem”.
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Just to set the record straight here.

“But the fact is when Breitbart actually had an ACORN story, when he actually uncovered some nuggets of news via undercover videos. the press did pay attention. In fact, the press flooded the story with attention, thereby proving it’s not liberal bias that now keeps the press at bay.”

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“Flooded the story”? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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More like a 90 year old man trying to take a pi$$.
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Liberals and the liberal media cracks me up sometimes!! Go for it IvyB if it makes you feel really happy inside.

spob, the Patriotic Americans are not the ones detained in Pakistan, obviously. They are the ones that contacted the FBI (incriminating their loved ones and, to a degree, themselves) in order to protect other Americans.
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I’m glad they’re there and not here too.
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Also, it shows that our fighting in Af/Pak will radicalize not only the native people but some here too.

Rusty –
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I’ve been reading here for quite some time and your “it’s always the LIBERALS that start it” rings hollow. There is a pile of wingers on this site and any number of them resort to these tactics unprovoked, as Freeper did just this morning.
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A number of people here do not engage in anything resembling fact-based discussion and some of them simply cry “blah, blah, blah” when presented with an argument. It’s just another sign of their immaturity and intellectual dishonesty and/or laziness.

Actually and FYI, the FELON and White House adviser on Health Care Reform, Robert Creamer is the new target.
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http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/34077/
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He only stole $2.3 million from banks? Geez, why am I so upset that this guy attended the White House state dinner and wrote the book that David Axelrod says is the “blueprint” for progressives?
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And yes, progressives, as much as you try to excuse it: Taking money from a bank that isn’t yours — even if you intend to someday pay it back or achieve social justice with it — is stealing.
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Amazingly, this thief, who used his own trial as some kind of twisted PR campaign to glorify himself, now says this about me: “This is a man who lies about everything. He frames things in a conspiratorial, surreal light.
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Let’s get this straight: The man who swindled banks out of $2.3 million and cheated on his taxes says that I lie about everything?”

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Poor little IvyB. You should start watching Beck more, then you can keep up with the ACTUAL news of the day!!

oops, should have linked the “45,000 Americans…”
- http://www.harvardscience.harvard.edu/medicine-health/articles/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-lack-health-coverage

Savings accounts always sound great to people who can afford to save. The question becomes can they who need save enough to matter, or does this just become another I can’t afford it so I skip going to the doctor, thus I control my own cost at the expense of my health?

If it is too good to be true, then it it is white wash.

@pintortwo — Even Spob is capable of irony, and I’m next to positive that he’s being ironic here. I think what we need is a new emoticon to indicate this sort of irony (the smiley face doesn’t quite do it). Perhaps KT can run a contest.

diecash says:
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“as Freeper did just this morning”.

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First of off it is not “Freeper” or as IQ53 likes to say “Freetopeeon”. Blah blah blah.
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Please show me where freeinpa said anything that was demeaning, debasing or in any way shape or form as you claim, “ad hominem”?
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Statements by freeinpa to this thread:
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8.1Could it be that the drug companies, medical device companies and equipment companies would nto take the risk of any new product just for fun?
freeinpa
December 11, 2009
at 8:50 am
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10.1And one need not look any further than the beliefs of liberals
freeinpa
December 11, 2009
at 8:51 am
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10.5There is that computer again spitting out Blah blah blah blah blah
freeinpa
December 11, 2009
at 10:37 am
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13.3For Christmas by another book for mom to read to IQ0.0 so he can post on something other than the SOUTHERN STRATEGY. It is in nearly every post as he is the self proclaimed expert on how only conservatives are racists.
freeinpa
December 11, 2009
at 10:40 am

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Perhaps you would like to point out to me where in any of freeinpa’s statements he has acted with “ad hominem” response?
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Or, would you like to take a gander at what your fellow “liberals” comment on from a recent thread.
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http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/12/09/palin-drone/comment-page-2/#comments
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Here are some IQ53 classic “ad hominems”.
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“30.3That’s fine, 2/3rds of a terrorist.
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Better a monkey than a foul bastard begotten by the Lady from Hades, terrorist scumbag.
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Now, can you rebut my comment about weather and climate?
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Eh, terrorist?
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jeopardy.wav
jeopardy.wav
jeopardy.wav
53_3
December 9, 2009
at 1:42 pm
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30.5If the sh!t fits, wear it 2/3rds of a terrorist.
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Foul scum.
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But, it’s clear that you don’t know and thanks for the proof!
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30.6You don’t like eating your own sh!t, do you 2/3rds of a terorist?
53_3
December 9, 2009
at 2:01 pm
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30.9Do we have to share space with the tea-bagging deviant traitors like Rusty? It’s embarrassing that decent Americans have to listen to his neo-Nazi Palin Porking slobberings.
grollican
December 9, 2009
at 2:47 pm
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33Since both rw crackheads decided to forgo civility, I’ve decided, at least for the moment, to let the epithets fly.
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And, I hate to say, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
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Now, when other conservatives here have guts enough to corral their own, I will return to civility.
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After all, this is their problem…
53_3
December 9, 2009
at 1:48 pm

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And, I could go on and on an on. But, as I have found from past experiences there is no use in debating the 3rd Graders here in the swamp. It is simply a waste of my time.
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Are you now planning on being a waste of time as well, diecash?
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“And one need not look any further than the beliefs of liberals”
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As I stated previously, his response to the previous post was, by definition, an ad hominem attack. Seems quite clear to me, so who is wasting time now Rusty?
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As I previously stated: “A number of people here do not engage in anything resembling fact-based discussion and some of them simply cry “blah, blah, blah” when presented with an argument. It’s just another sign of their immaturity and intellectual dishonesty and/or laziness”
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As such, you do not need to point out every post (rather, every post by a “liberal” commenter) that you feel is such an attack. I notice that you did not give equal time to the so-called “conservative” posters that have made such attacks. Again, who is wasting time Rusty?

…rusty, we agree on personal responsibility, though you got me on the liberal part. I really prefer single payer systems but if we’re having private ones we need to take charge of our own costs as best as possible. I’ve been caught ill between policies and fought denied claims, thus I already check my bills and pills vigorously. However, shopping for services ain’t a great idea when lying on a table with a heart attack, broken leg, or sudden infection. Costs are still way too high today no matter who pays.

Rusty:

No matter how many examples or proof you provide they will discount it, denigrate it then claim it is all you. A waste of good air.

There are liberals here we can have honest disagreements and then there are others who do exactly as we just discussed.

The Blah blah blah continues

Well Freep, all you seem to say is “blah, blah, blah.” What is this proof that Rusty provided? That some “liberal” commentators made attacks? Seems to me I covered that twice. As I stated, he ignores the attacks of the “conservatives” such as yourself while only focusing on one side.
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If you wish to be above the fray and have honest discussions, maybe you should stop with the attacks and gross generalizations. Seems unlikely but it’s worth a shot.

“Creative Conservatism” = an ideology that seeks new and inventive ways to screw working people to the benefit of our corporate owners.
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Thanks, James in LA. Well done.

bobell- I think “patriotic Americans” was used to mock a comment I made yesterday on MS’s post linking to the AP story.
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I suggested that instead of focusing on the men that went to Pak to commit terror, we focus on the families that gave-up their children to the FBI, probably saving American lives, and called it an act of patriotism. I then suggested that the story shows how Homeland Security will better protect us than troops.
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I think spob was mocking me, but I could be wrong.

diecash:
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I did not make the initial accusation. I believe that was your claim.
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Secondly, there is plenty of “blame” to go around. I will even own up to my own faults at making outrageous statements about other commenters, in particular those on the left. But, I have always tried to limit them to those cases where I have been attacked first. To my memory, I have not initiated the attack first. As I believe my fellow conservatives have done as well on this site. To create any discussion, starting off with an attack will never elicit any discussion what-so-ever. And the fact that this site is predominatly visited by mostly liberals.
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With that said, we should all reserve “ad hominem” attacks on each other. I still have hope, and I dream of a day when we can be civil towards one another on this site, and petty attacks are kept out of discussions.
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I have had many debates on this very site with those on the left that I consider not only respectful, but give me a sense of pleasure to debate the issues.
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I even hope one day to get the writers of this blog to re-look at what they say themselves. That there is a diverse group of people that make up this country, and for the most part, we are all not bad people. That despite our various stand on the issues, they should treat them with respect first, and stick more to the facts rather than bloviating their own feelings. Allow us, as consumers of this information to make up our own minds. Present the facts, and let us decide or debate. If they want to debate, that is fine. But do so clearly and without prejudice within the article itself. Debate us in the comment section.
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But, I have also resolved that the liberal media, and liberals in general will continue to attack rather than debate. Case in point the recent Tea Party grass roots movement. Liberals like Nancy Pelosi want to describe it as an “astro-turf” movement. Other liberals want to debase it using such terms that are not only offensive, “tea-bagging”, but also inflict an immediate block to any further discussions. But, I am also encouraged by the many health care reform debates we have all had, I have learned many things and changed some of my initial thoughts because of it.
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We will never move forward in this country if we continue to blame the past for our current feelings. We will only move forward when we learn from the past, and develop policies and programs that benefit everyone equally. Good or bad in the past, overall this is, and I hope will always be the greatest Nation of free people the World has ever witnessed.

You said: “To my memory, I have not initiated the attack first. As I believe my fellow conservatives have done as well on this site.”
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Your contention that your “fellow conservatives” have made attacks only in response to attacks made upon them is patently false. To say otherwise could only be the result of ideological blindness.
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“And the fact that this site is predominatly visited by mostly liberals.”
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As for this assertion, I think that would be difficult to prove. It appears to me that there is a wide range of viewpoints expressed here, not only that of liberals.
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“Liberals like Nancy Pelosi want to describe it as an “astro-turf” movement.”
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The tea-party movement may contain some variety of real, grass-roots supporters but you can not reasonably argue that there is not a large element of astroturf contained within it. Look no further than “FreedomWorks.” That entire group is about spreading astroturf for their own benefit. Pointing that out is not an attack. It is an astute observation and an important one at that. Knowing who or what is really behind a movement (or part of one) is valuable information that helps to determine motive.
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As for honest debate being helpful, we agree though using tired, worn statements like “the liberal media” is not conducive to a fruitful debate. Would you rather I use a similar invective to describe the “conservative” media? Again, derisive terminology is not helpful.

pintortwo:

Agreed. Only that many consider the government run health insurance to be the panacea for health care woes, it will not be. Regardless of the motives, adding 40-45 million (you pick the number) new patients and allowing the same services is not doable without either reducing those services, regulating prices of the drug and device companies and/or increasing the premiums to all.

As their profitability goes down, those drug and device providers have less incentives to spend billions on new advances and more incentives to squeeze every penny out of current product lines. And as government will try to control costs those negotiations will quickly turn to the government extorting those companies in order to meet those goals.

“there is no one so blind as those who will not see.”

You are correct. However, I fail to see the brightness as it is buried in bile, invectives and expletives and now I only see Blah Blah Blah

dicash1

“If you wish to be above the fray and have honest discussions, maybe you should stop with the attacks and gross generalizations.”

Physician heal thyself!

[...] intrigues the left with his creative, non-government-run health care ideas. From Joe Klein’s Swampland blog: You may or may not agree with the approach Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels is taking on health [...]

deconstructiva:

Costs are still way too high today no matter who pays.

Very well said, I just need to fix something for you…
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Costs in the United States (and in no other developed country, for some reason) are still way too high today no matter who pays.
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…there! That’s better!

Thanks so much for this excellent analysis, James.

thanks for the thoughtful answer. Personally, I don’t see how adding more “consumers” will be harmful to the services companies or doctors. And taking for-profit insurance companies out of the picture will drop overhead -no stock dividends, crazy bonuses, advertising, lobbying, centrally located info. There is a good reason why all other modern democracies have a lower per-capita cost for healthcare.
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Be that as it may (I’m no expert), I think the main thing I gripe about is the lack of any real debate in major media. Try this when you can: tell friends, family, whomever that all industrialized democracies use some type of public HC and we’re considering it too. Then ask “what are the pro public-option arguments in terms of economic benefit and quality of care?” (not to have them argue the efficacy, just if they know what the Pro side is) Honestly, in my very small sample, I’ve gotten nothing but blank stares. Their faces say “there are possible economic and health benefits?” People only seem to know the slogans. Fail media. They follow the money, and it flows from the insurance and pharm cos.

diecash1:
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I’d like to add a little background here.
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Both Rusty and freeinpa are depending on you not knowing a few things.
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Rusty has been on these threads for quite a while, and has, on many, many occasions ranted about upcoming race wars. At one time, he warned us of the impending rise of the “Sleeping White Giant”, which has become regular fodder on these threads.
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2/3rdsrocks, on Joe Klien’s LOL thread, told shephardwong, another of our regular posters, that he didn’t deserve to live, and that he was a coward, and that he (2/3rds) pointed out that the overthrow of the government was ok. In addition, before threatening shephardwong, he also pointed out that “…the Tea Party doesn’t participate in violence, but we’re not afraid of it (sic)…”
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Hence my commentary to 2/3rds, but what Rusty failed to include was him calling me a monkey immediately beforehand. The first comment pointed out to him that “weather was not climate” and he was addressed by me a “2/3rdsrocks”. No insults. That is, until he departed from civility.
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And, in particular, as someone who is close to the Black community, I do not regard Southern Strategy codespeak as civil discourse.

No, spob:
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You’re obfuscating. Your implication is different that what our country’s recent political history indicates.
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I already supplied links. So far, you can’t rebut them, and I will point out further that maybe, just maybe, you should trot these ideas by the Black community to see how they fly.
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I have a very strong hunch that they won’t…

Rusty, may I point out that you no sooner finished your “civility” debate with diecash1, and while it was still warm on the ground, you went and insulted Ivy_B?
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I mean, c’mon Rusty, maybe you had better wake up and smell the roses, er, uh…

As their profitability goes down, those drug and device providers have less incentives to spend billions on new advances and more incentives to squeeze every penny out of current product lines.

Okay…?
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Other countries and companies would be more than willing to step into vacuum, should one actually exist. And if they can get it done cheaper and using less resources, why should we care?

“Both Rusty and freeinpa are depending on you not knowing a few things.”

I love the phony innocence. 53, dice and shep are always full of expletives and name calling as they respond to any pist by anyone who has the temerity to question them. In fact, they have been taken to task recently by other folks here for those very things.

“And, in particular, as someone who is close to the Black community, I do not regard Southern Strategy codespeak as civil discourse.”

You may be close but it does not make you the sole and only expert. It fact whenever the factor of race enter you spout “Southern Strategy” and label everyone else a racist for questioning what you believe. Which in reality probably makes you the racist or at the very least hardheaded since your mind is made up regardless of the situation

And for those reasons the 3 of you are nothing but static in the debate of life or Blah blah blah

pintorttwo:

More consumers will quickly chew up current doctor capacity. As their repayments are cut (we are seeing that in Medicare) less will enter the field. Why would anyone giving up 8 years of their lives for school and training while taking on hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt enter a field with falling salaries? The response will be the government will pay for their education. This won’t be counted as a health care cost but in fact will increase th eoeral cost of health care. Additionally it also stands to reason that the ranks of doctors will begin to fill with less talented entrants.

You are correct about other countries haveing lower per capita costs. I would suggest that many of thier more talented folks come hear where they can consider a wider berth of opportunities for more money.

redraven937:

I suspect the vacuum would be filled. However, I would offer that we have a tough enough time monitoring things like toys from China for safety. I shudder at the thought of getting drugs from some countries. Additionally, we have a problem getting enough vaccine for the flu now. It is doubtful Washington could huff an dpuff loud enough to make othr countries produce what we want when we want.

I also find that argument of outsourcing our medical care somewhat hypocritical when we continue to bash companies here for moving operations off shore to lower cost.

“Regardless of the motives, adding 40-45 million (you pick the number) new patients and allowing the same services is not doable without either reducing those services, regulating prices of the drug and device companies and/or increasing the premiums to all.”
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Sorry, “conservatives” can’t keep claiming the “everyone has access to health care at hospitals” (after they’ve gotten sick enough to go to one) and, at the same time, we can’t afford to “add” those people to the system. Either they’re using (more expensive) medical services at hospitals or they have no health care, period. And if they’re using hospitals for primary care, then moving them into real primary care can only reduce costs in the long run.

I don’t know what a “conservative” is nowadays. And those who claim the label don’t know either. What I do know is that they are mostly ignorant and ill informed and are educated by Glen Becks , Rush Limbags, Allah, god, and the conference of catholic bishops. We will get virgins and wonderful sex in the after life. Just be patient. That seems to be what “conservatives” are about. Long way from Barry Goldwater, but hey, times change. I wonder if this species exists in Cuba, the most literate nation in the world. Maybe we will find out if our “free” country allows us legal visits there.

“Sorry, “conservatives” can’t keep claiming the “everyone has access to health care at hospitals” (after they’ve gotten sick enough to go to one) and, at the same time, we can’t afford to “add” those people to the system.”

Nowhere in the above statements did I make any claims of access to hospital nor we not afford to “add” to the system

And no where in your statemnt is there anything but a crass contention that costs will come down.

“I don’t know what a “conservative” is nowadays. And those who claim the label don’t know either. What I do know is that they are mostly ignorant and ill informed”

If you don’t know what a conservative is and they don’t know either exactly why are you making a contention that they are ignorant and ill-informed?

You entire argument is reduced to name calling something you can’t explain which suggests it is you who may be ignorant and ill-informed

I think most of you guys missed the important part of the article. It’s not what Mr. Daniels has done for health care for Hoosiers, it’s that he knows the problem isn’t government, the problem is poor government. The contrast is shown:

Tellingly, both Mitches like to talk about the Department of Motor Vehicles. The Washington Mitch conjures the image of long lines and uncaring bureaucrats and asks, cynically, whether you want folks like that determining your medical care. The Indiana Mitch, by contrast, rolled up his sleeves and transformed his DMV into an efficient, consumer-friendly operation.

Remember, it’s easy for “an enlightened zeal for the energy and efficiency of government [to] be stigmatized as…hostile to the principles of liberty.” But “the vigor of government is essential.”

The important thing to be drawn from the article is that Republicans (nor Democrats) don’t pose a problem to our principles. It’s bad lawmakers (Republicans or Democrats) that “lurk behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people” and decide that the government should do nothing. “History will teach us that this is a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism” than creating efficient and efficacious government.

My man Mr Daniels knows this. Others should follow his lead.

I’m not sure some of the commenters understand the Healthy Indiana Plan. The deductible is not in addition to the premiums.

In fact, the entire premium is always paid by State & Federal dollars under the Healthy Indiana Plan. The only thing the State of Indiana asks participants to do is contribute toward the deductible ($1100) – on a sliding scale according to income.

So there are actually several very low income (or no income) individuals who pay nothing, as their entire $1100 POWER account (deductible) is state funded. On the other end of the spectrum, those earning more money can pay as much as $90 for one adult per month toward the $1100 deductible. But that is all they pay – no additional premiums or copays, except for non-emergency ER visits.

Plus, if a member has kids that receive SCHIP / Medicaid coverage (known as Hoosier Healthwise in Indiana), any premiums paid for the kids are deducted from the payment adult(s) in the household must contribute to their POWER accounts. This ensures that healthcare costs are capped at a reasonable amount for lower-income families.

In that case (when someone goes to the ER, but a “prudent layperson” would have instead used urgent care or a doctor’s office) – the copay is a maximum of $25. If you go to the ER and are subsequently admitted to the hospital as an inpatient, the copay is automatically refunded. There are no copays for prescriptions, doctor visits, lab tests, etc. (These things are deducted from the POWER account if the $1100 annual limit has not been met, but there is no out of pocket cost.)

Any State contribution to the POWER account is made in full at the beginning of each year someone is covered by HIP. Furthermore, even if the state isn’t contributing anything (someone with a high enough income to pay the $90/month) – if the POWER account is billed, the insurer *must* advance payment to the provider, no matter what the dollar amount. The insurer can only bill the patient for their state-determined contribution in 12 equal monthly installments. No more, no less (except the ER copay). So even if someone needed $1200 worth of services in their first month as a member, there would be no penalty, as long as he/she made their normal monthly payment on time.

Also, HIP encourages its participants to visit the doctor once a year for a checkup and obtain any other preventative care – and all preventative care is covered from the first dollar and cannot be billed out of the POWER account deductible. Effectively there is $0 deductible on preventative care. If a HIP member obtains all the services listed on the following chart according to age and sex, the entire remaining POWER account balance rolls over to the next year. This can mean, that if someone is reasonably healthy and obtains all state-recommended preventative care, he or she may remain a member of HIP with no or a very low monthly payment into the POWER account.
The chart is here:
http://www.in.gov/fssa/hip/2338.htm

Participants can also earn gift cards for things like making an appointment and showing up on time for an annual checkup or enrolling in and completing weight management or smoking cessation programs (both of which are offered free of charge). Review the exact terms of each plan here:
http://www.in.gov/fssa/hip/files/MAXI542_IN_HIP-PlanChartDEC20.pdf

The art of war…

I’ ……