In the Arena

On Civility

Back in the 1990s, before he became Karl Rove’s Deputy Minister of Propaganda, Pete Wehner had two friends in what might be called the liberal media–E.J. Dionne and me. Pete was William Bennett’s ghost-writer in those days and he liked us because we both liked faith-based social programs, and were critical of some of the more heartless and thoughtless aspects of the Democratic Party’s urban policies. We liked Pete because he was erudite and, unlike many religious conservatives, actually seemed to understand that Jesus was into feeding, clothing and housing the poor (and chastising the wealthy for their greed).

I’m still a big fan of faith-based social programs–especially inner-city parochial schools and the panoply of fabulous, unheralded programs run by the black church. Not such a big fan of Pete Wehner’s, anymore. Privately, he’s proven to be a self-righteous prig, abandoning friends who don’t meet his lofty moral standards on divorce, gambling and other assorted non-virtues. Publicly, he’s descended into utterly predictable right-wing hackery and near-daily pronouncements about the imminent demise of Barack Obama. And now he’s taken to attacking his old friend, E.J. Dionne…

You can agree or disagree with EJ’s politics, which are firmly rooted–I believe–in the social teachings of his church. But one thing that everyone who has ever met E.J. agrees on is that he’s one of the few truly nice people in our increasingly ugly business, one of the most civil humans extant on the planet, a truly noble and gracious person. Wehner’s assault is both gratuitous and foolishly excessive. It stems from his sole purpose on earth these days: defending George W. Bush.

Wehner’s argument, such as it is, is that E.J. is calling for civility now, but didn’t sufficiently attack the leftists who went over-the-top in attacking Bush personally during his disastrous regime. Certainly, there were some outrageous things said and written about that President. I never much went in for the use of the word “hate” or personal attacks on Bush, and EJ never did. I always liked the President personally, and I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt where possible–especially at the beginning of his second-term, when a grace period seemed appropriate for a newly-elected President–but I thought his policies were atrocious and his presidency, ultimately, one of the two or three worst in American history. I could be wrong, but I don’t remember EJ going that far in his criticism, even though, if he had, he would have been well within the bounds of columny–harsh attacks a President’s policies and public demeanor have always been fair game. (When the attacks did cross the line, like the infamous Moveon.com “General Betrayus” ad, I made my views known, to the howls of more than a few loyal Swampland commenters).

There is a difference between the attacks on Bush and some of the attacks on Obama, though. The attacks on Obama, retailed by creeps like Rush and Beck, are outright lies. They question his citizenship, his patriotism, his religious convictions. To his credit, Wehner has, on occasion, called out some of the more severely demented attacks. But the level of anger, and insinuation, being directed at this President–without any pushback from the Republican leadership–is downright dangerous.

I don’t mind these fools calling Obama a socialist or a communist–it’s uncivil, but it’s hyperbole and well within the grand tradition of American vitriol, like the lefties who called Bush a fascist. But there is a problem of critical mass: the right-wing hyperbole is unimpeded by any sense of moderation from the party’s leaders. Rush rules (and if you don’t believe me, take a look at the sorry history of those who defied the blowhard and then had to walk back their criticisms).  One of the two major political parties has jumped the tracks, is living in a fever swamp of lies and disinformation. That is not good for the Republic…Indeed, I believe that if the Republicans had raised some of the (universal, mandated) health care reform principles they stood for in 1994, the bill slogging its way through the Congress now could have been stronger than it will probably be.

In any case, EJ is right to rail against incivility. And Wehner–who will, no doubt, use this opportunity to attack me again, dredging up the same two or three quotes he always does–has proven to be the sort of prosyletizer he once claimed to dislike: self-righteous to the point of moral blindness, far more concerned with smiting evil than with doing good.

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  • shepherdwong

    “Wehner…has proven to be the sort of prosyletizer he once claimed to dislike: self-righteous to the point of moral blindness, far more concerned with smiting evil than with doing good.”
    .
    That’s going to leave a mark.
    .
    BTW, who always said Wehner was a lying, partisan creep, even when you were a big fan. Oh, right, that must leave a mark too.

  • constantweader

    Yes, faith-based charities are great, like the Roman Catholic Church’s feeding the poor in D.C. — until they decided maybe they would cut the program because — horrors! — the D.C. Council is planning to allow gays to have the same right to marry that the rest of us fools do.

    Sorry, but relying on those who are holier-than-I is a big mistake — because the holy ones give on their own terms & they don’t mind holding the least of us hostage to those terms.

    The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    I’m willing to go along with Wehner’s argument about civility, just so long as he follows its implications on the deficit– those who didn’t care about it during the Bush era are hereby banned from talking about it now.
    -
    The thing about civility, though, is that “some Dem-leaning said mean things about George Bush” is light years away from “high-ranking GOP elected officials gave aid and comfort to conspiracy theories about the president’s birth, and refused to vote for anything he supported ever.” The “Betrayus” ad was stupid, and all, but it came from a group without much pull in the Democratic Party. Republicans are tripping over each other to speak at “Obama = Hitler” rallies. Wehner is wrong to engage in moral relativism on this.
    -
    For what it’s worth, it doesn’t seem to me that it was necessary to address Wehner’s personal behavior in this post.

  • kathy

    The key is, indeed, the difference between the level and nature of the vitriol directed at Bush and Obama. There were bumper stickers suggesting that “when Clinton lied, nobody died.” Well that’s true. “There’s a village in Texas missing an idiot.” mean, but not designed to incite to violence. And there were those on the left who suggested Bush didn’t care about the consequences of his actions, and I doubt that was true on a human level. Most of our differences were policy differences. And there were the cries for “regime change,” and that comes close to what we’re talking about, but the left meant by the ballot box, and the extreme right does not.

    The vitriol directed at Obama is, as you said, dangerous. t-shirts that suggest he should die in office.

    It’s one of the reasons I wish the left would be a little more willing to give Obama some lee-way. He needs support from somebody, so the scales don’t tip in the direction of revulsion.

  • hellslittlestangel

    I wonder what Klein would write about if he weren’t regularly indignant over the hypocrisies of others?

  • FlownOver

    Jeebus, Klein…

    Could you give us a brief holiday respite from all the critiques of other people’s posts? I don’t doubt Wehner’s a d!¢k, but I’d much rather read about something substantive than your take on someone else’s writing.

  • Art Pepper

    Poor little W. Verbally attacked by all those mean lefties. It must have been absolute torture for him.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    Flownover, this isn’t really for us. Joe Klein also uses this blog to talk to his fellow villagers — so when he does this its best to just ignore the post since he isn’t talking to us anyway.

  • shepherdwong

    Actually, there has been sufficient evidence to suggest that Bush may very well have been a certifiable psychopath, i.e., he didn’t really care about the consequences of his actions, specifically on a human level, all the way back to 2004. The key is, the people who were in a position to know and tell the public about it at the time and either didn’t recognize who and what Bush (and Cheney) were or chose not to speak up about it when it would have mattered, have to come clean about their own poor judgment and complicity in the Bush tragedy (“especially at the beginning of his second-term, when a grace period seemed appropriate for a newly-elected President”) to get any points for finding the 800 lb. acorn now.

  • shepherdwong

    My simmering blood calls me to point out that Joe apparently thinks Bush (the Deserter) earned his “grace period” by virtue of a campaign of viscous lies that smeared the record of a real, bonafide war hero. Yet he was shocked, just shocked, to find the “General Betrayus” ad going on here.

  • freeinpa

    Joe:

    You must be a closet comedy writer. You have to be. This seemingly noble attempt to talk about civility is a joke as are your reasons and defense of Dionne.

    “might be called liberal media” Might be because you don’t have the intestinal fortitude to admit your true thoughts or incapable of realizing how far left you and DIonne truly are?

    There were 8 years of Nazi, fascist clown face pictures articles etc about Bush. And you argue that poor EJ is getting torched because he “didn’t sufficiently” speak out against it . It seems the liberal media was not only silent but a party to the incivility of the left. I have seen both you and EJ on shows over the years where folks’ bile over Bush went unchecked and you both sat ignorantly by without a word. Afraid they will change the secret liberal journo handshake without telling you no doubt. You claim that you had little use for Bush-hating and personal attacks however if you let them go unchallenged you are as guilty.

    Now you talk about fools and their attacks on Obama and it is worse than the attacks on Bush (of course it is says the almost liberal media). The questions about Obama come a lot closer to true than many of the left’s attacks on Bush. You not agreeing with them does not change that. It only proves once again you are more suited for comedy than serious journalism.

    As for Mr. Dionne, he has written for 8 years what is wrong with conservatives, how conservatism is dead etc. Unlike a stopped clock which is right twice a day, Dionne has not been right in 8 years. If he has not spoke up about civility before STFU, he has no standing now and like you just comes across again as a left wing political hack.

  • destor23

    There’s another angle to this, though, which is that Bush didn’t exactly shy away from insulting people. This is the guy who had Rove engineering his campaign. The guy behind robocalls and bizarre accusations about John McCain’s family and a guy who ran for office against two bona fide combat veterans while the people around him made light of the battle field risks they took.

    To the extent that Bush was harshly criticized, it seems to me he dished out a bit too (or, at least his surrogates did).

  • freeinpa

    That is the worst rationalization for Bush deranged syndrome I have heard. And are you saying that the Obama WH has been silent in answering critics? I don’t recall Bush setting up a report your neighbor hot line if you didn’t like the war or a website responding to “lies” (amazingly never the ones that came from Obama himself).

  • shepherdwong

    And when you have the guts to write the important truth about what actually afflicts this nation (hint: it’s no longer Bush & Co.’s marketing writers) then you’ll get some cred with real liberals. Until you’re willing to take on the real, corrupt power in Washington (that’s your job, whether you understand it or not), your “outrage” at dear irrelevant friends gone by sounds both petty and cowardly and you’re still just part of the rot. Here’s how it’s done:

    It’s impossible to find a more perfectly representative face for the rotted Washington establishment than Evan Bayh. He is the pure expression of virtually every attribute that makes the Beltway so dysfunctional, deceitful and corrupt.
    .
    Bayh wants to send other people into every proposed war he can find and keep them there forever without ever bearing any of the costs himself — not in military service for him or his family nor even in higher taxes to pay for his glorious wars. Sacrifice is for everyone other than Evan Bayh and his friends. He runs around praising himself as a “deficit hawk” while recklessly supporting wars and indefinite occupations that the country can’t afford and which drive us further into debt. He feigns concern over the “deficit” only when it comes time to deny ordinary Americans benefits which he and his family already possess in abundance. He is a loyal servant to the insurance and health care industries over his own constituents — as his wife sits on the Boards of numerous health care giants, who, right when Bayh became a Senator, began paying her millions of dollars in cash and stock. And this Sermonizer of Personal Responsibility is the ultimate by-product of nepotism, following faithfully and effortlessly in the footsteps of his Daddy-Senator, whose seat he now occupies.

  • formerlyjames

    Salute to sheppherdwong who above ascribes the proper term to W. Bush…”psychopath”. Another word is “sociopath”. I concur totally. Nice guy. Part of the definition of sociopath.
    .
    I take exception to the faith-based drivel. I believe strongly in secular government. If you admire parochial schools (at the expense of secular public education), all I can guess is that you have never been subjected to one and have no idea what they are about.
    .
    I have no idea who the 2 dudes referred to are. I just speak to the issues of religion in government and what a sorry creep W. Bush and the snakes and various psychos around him were/are.

  • square1

    The questions about Obama come a lot closer to true than many of the left’s attacks on Bush.
    .
    This is beyond laughable.
    .
    The major attacks on Bush were based on objective facts that really weren’t in dispute: He massively cut taxes on the wealthy; he invaded a country that did not attack the U.S.; he permitted the torture of prisoners; he vastly expanded warrantless, unaccountable spying on Americans; etc.
    .
    Those things actually, objectively happened. It’s just that Bush would DEFEND THEM.
    .
    In contrast, the attacks on Obama by the wingnuts demonstrate a fact-free paranoia and ignorance of basic history and economics that is breathtaking.
    .
    The unending questioning of Obama’s birth certificate is easy to laugh at. But the political and economic criticisms of Obama are embarrassingly stupid.
    .
    Obama bails out the wealthiest Wall Street bankers in America at the expense of job creation and wingnuts call him a Marxist. It is like self-parody.

  • freeinpa

    square1:

    And all those policies you despise remain in place with the First Tourist and with Dumos controlling both Houses. So is Obama a Nazi Fascist psychopath? Is the current administration and Congress incompetent or stupid?

  • freeinpa

    See Joe read up thread, no doubt a product of Dionne’s attempt at civility.

  • freeinpa

    What would you have Joe write about? ACORN frauds, Climate Control Frauds, Obama’s HC overhaul fraud?

    The entire liberal agenda has evaporated over the past several weeks, its back to Bush Deranged Syndrome full speed ahead.

  • Paul-no not that one

    The call for “Civility” when used in political context is always used to stifle speech.

    Both sides use it and the Beltway laps it up.

    Moveon crowd, uncivil. Teabaggers, uncivil.

  • freeinpa

    Agreed, but you will only see pathetic attempts to “return” to civility against conservatives. The media develops amnesia of the left tirades.

  • shepherdwong

    “The media develops amnesia of the left tirades.”
    .
    And right in this very post:
    .
    “When the attacks did cross the line, like the infamous Moveon.com “General Betrayus” ad [released more than two years ago], I made my views known, to the howls of more than a few loyal Swampland commenters.”
    .
    So delusional…and so utterly clueless about it.

  • spob

    Speaking of civility, did Eric Holder really say that people who opposed trying KSM in NYC should “man up”?

  • Paul-no not that one

    No.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    PNNTO nails it. Every time anyone talks about ‘civility’ I want to cringe. They’re usually refering to some event where someone had the unfortunate audacity to note the nakedness of the Emporer.

    Dick Durbin and Wes Clarke come to mind right away.

  • freeinpa

    shepherdwong

    .
    “When the attacks did cross the line, like the infamous Moveon.com “General Betrayus” ad [released more than two years ago], I made my views known, to the howls of more than a few loyal Swampland commenters.”

    WOW To the Swampland commenters. Gee that is probably a population the size of the Chris Matthews show. You could hold that meeting in a phone booth

    If you want to comment just to degrade me just do it. Obviously trying to thinly disguise it with reasoning is an epic failure for your pinhead.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    There is no question that Rush Limbaugh is the “leading intellectual” in the conservative movement today. He is the essence of the movement, it’s shining example. If you look up “essence of a conservative” in the dictionary, there is a picture of Rush next to the definition.

    I’m all for civility, in the sense of having good manners, a positive disposition and showing consideration for others, but I believe those who cry loudest about the lack of civility ought to practice it themselves. In that light, it is not “civil,” in my opinion, to constantly misuse reason, offering up a constant array of personal insults of your political opponents. If you removed logical fallacy from the political rhetoric of the conservative movement, you would have to put the movement in a monastery, where there is a vow of silence.

  • 53_3

    There was actually civility in politics once upon a time.
    .
    I remember, toot toot
    .
    I remember, toot toot
    .
    Down by the swimming pool…

  • abdullah69

    The fact that the leading luminaries of the Republican Party are no longer in Washington but in the media says it all. The party that advocated personal responsibility now looks up to those who exercise power without responsibilty.

    If or when the GOP can regain credibility with voters on the principles of sound finances (went out with Reagan), individual freedom (went out with the Patriot Act and Guantanamo) or a strong defence (went out with 9/11) then any bounce in their popularity says more about Obama than it does about the attractions of the Republican Party. Hence the personal attacks. What else do Republicans have to offer that is believable?

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    JK~
    You’re such a petty d*uchebag, sometimes. Why are you, and your personal vendettas, and ad hominems waged against you, and your subsequent ad hominems waged against other the ubiquitous subject of your posts? Why are you yourself always personal to the story? Why is the journalist the news, JK?

  • stuartzechman

    all those policies you despise remain in place with the First Tourist and with Dumos controlling both Houses. So is Obama a Nazi Fascist psychopath? Is the current administration and Congress incompetent or stupid?

    Stripped of the silly invective, these are excellent questions for everyone not a knee-jerk Obamaphile or tribal GOP-hater.

  • theotherjimmyolson

    Ah the old, ” but Obama did it too” defense,Long time since I heard that one.

  • theotherjimmyolson

    Ah, because it’s his blog?

  • theotherjimmyolson

    I award this thread to Sheperdwong.

  • Cliff

    But they really should.

  • Cliff

    I agree with Exiled here – Klein spends a lot of time whining about what this neocon or that civil libertarian is saying about him.

  • ohiolib

    Exiled, you have just hit a nail on the head. How long has it been since Joe had an issue-based post instead of a “Hey, look at this moron!!” post?? Not that he’s always wrong, but there are more important things to worry about.

  • freeinpa

    theotherjimmyo

    Hardly. The bile screeched at Bush about policies for 8 years are unchanged going to the point that without a similar response to Obama for not altering those policies Bush Deranged Syndrome runs wild among the left.

  • 3xfire3

    It’s much easier to talk about other people who are not there to defend themselves than to write about and take a position on important issues.
    Other then supporting 98% of everything that Obama says or does, Joe seldom takes a strong position on any important issue.

  • freeinpa

    SZ:

    “Stripped of the silly invective, these are excellent questions for everyone not a knee-jerk Obamaphile or tribal GOP-hater.”

    Ah c’mon SZ the silly invective is half the fun here!

  • billiecat

    Joe, now that you’ve got this off your chest (and I’m with ya, I really am), how about you do some more reporting on Afghanistan and Iraq? We need a little meat to go with these empty calories.

  • 3xfire3

    Sheperdong
    Your comments are extremely hateful regarding Bush. You obviously lack the intelligence and common sense to understand that there are always two sides to every story and truth is somewhere in between. Neither Obama or Bush are all good or all bad. They simple believe in different approaches to how to solve a problem. You need to stop demonizing people you disagree with. It makes you seem like an extreme fascist or communist.

  • 3xfire3

    Sheperdong
    Read 22. It’s for you.

  • modi43

    How has no one brought up lefties like Van Jones, who openly accused the president of colluding to murder 3,000 Americans on 9/11?!?!

    Joe Klein, meanwhile, accused a Jewish cabal of conspiring to start the Iraq war (lefties vacillate between the anti-Semitic reason and the oil reason) to benefit Israel (Israel can’t get Jonathan Pollard freed and can’t get the U.S. to move its embassy to Jerusalem, but it can apparently get wars started. Seems logical).

    Stereotyping and demeaning an entire people/religion based on no evidence? Pretty civil…

  • 53_3

    The things that saved The Savior Of New Orleans and The Rest Of The Planet during the investigation was the scapegoating of Walter Cronkite.
    .
    No, Bush ain’t all bad, but even highly venomous snakes have a purpose in this world.
    .
    Just ask Karl Rove…

  • Tom in The Swamp

    There goes JokeLine again, attacking a scorpion for being a scorpion.

  • 53_3

    Is ACORN bigger than K Street, freetopee?
    .
    And what “climate control fraud”?
    .
    Didn’tcha know that CO2 is a greenhouse gas?
    .
    Scientists found that out 200 years ago.
    .
    Just FYI, the methane that comes out your mouth (formerly known as your arse) is 2,000 times as effective as C02, ozone is 80 times as effective, SO2 (the other gas out of your “mouth”), is 40 times as effective, and water vapor is 200 times as effective.
    .
    And all are entrained in CO2 warming. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8387137.stm
    .
    Oh, and up yours…

  • 53_3

    As for Bush bashing, I think it’s overblown too! After all, I only remember worldwide embarrassment over Katrina, the rampant corruption, the skyrocketing gas prices, (lets’ not mention HC costs, too!), the bizarre act of attacking Iraq when we should have focused on Afghanistan, the WMD/Liberator/Exporter of “Democracy”* bullsquawk in a desperate effort to find a reason for stupidly attacking Iraq when we really wanted Bin Laden, the demonizing of our traditional European allies, K street corruption fest, the Haliburton “losses”, and the collapse of the economy, his MIA while in Texas, not to mention…
    .
    *of course, lets’ not mention that when people are free to vote for whom they think will serve their best interests, they don’t necessarily vote for our guys, do they? Witness Hamas.

  • 53_3

    Seems square1 covered the rest up in comment number 9.1. Other “stuff” lying around to throw at Bush (besides shoes!) are found all through these commentaries.
    .
    One thing that is without a doubt true, is that even if Obama were worse than Bush, he just hasn’t been around nearly long enough to do the damage that Bush did!

  • 53_3

    So does this trump the “Obama the antichrist” thing?

  • modi43

    “One thing that is without a doubt true, is that even if Obama were worse than Bush, he just hasn’t been around nearly long enough to do the damage that Bush did!”

    You won’t be saying that when your grandkids’ great-grandkids are paying off the multiple stimulus plans, the wrecked healthcare system, etc.

  • modi43

    Obama as the anti-Christ is ridiculous. Saying Bush colluded to kill 3,000 Americans is equally ridiculous. I didn’t see anyone on the left protesting that too vigorously or calling for civility for Bush, though…

    And Klein is a huge hypocrite, cuz saying Jews manipulate their own governments cuz of dual loyalties is a gross stereotype and not at all civil…

  • modi43

    Do some research and find out why Klein is so bitter. He crypically writes, “And Wehner–who will, no doubt, use this opportunity to attack me again, dredging up the same two or three quotes he always does–”

    Haha, I haven’t seen fisking this devastating in a while:

    http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YWZhNTU4YmQzNzBiNTBlMzIxYjkzNWJhYWJiODY0YTU=

    Klein, don’t call more attention to your own verbal destruction. You are way out of your league (and shouldn’t you be busy calling some Jewish govt. officials traitors?).

  • shepherdwong

    “…without a similar response to Obama for not altering those policies Bush Deranged Syndrome runs wild among the left.”
    .
    Anyone who’s head isn’t shoved up the elephant’s @ss knows that liberals have been scathing in their criticism of Obama for carrying on Bush policies – see FISA, black site prisons, the use of executive authority to cover-up of evidence of war crimes, and the Afghanistan trrop escalation, just for starters.
    .
    After watching them slavishly worship Bush and Cheney, while those miscreants savaged every previously stated “principle” of “conservatism”, I understand that wingers simply can’t wrap their slobbering, authoritarian-following minds around the concept of putting important principle ahead of partisanship but that’s what liberals do and are doing as we speak.
    .
    When everything you know about liberals comes from “conservatives” like Limbaugh and Beck, you know very little about much of anything.

  • freeinpa

    IQ0.3

    Dumber by the day. Tell mom she needs to start to watering you twice a day and sprinkle baking soda (It will keep the stench down).

    Is ACORN bigger than K Street, freetopee? YES What K Street Does you may not like but its legal- What ACORN does will lead to indictments in over 30 states.
    .
    And what “climate control fraud”? Have somebody read the news to you. The data long suspected by people with a brain and not an agenda was cooked.
    .
    Didn’tcha know that CO2 is a greenhouse gas? Yes and you and Algore are the biggest gaseous source of hot air.

  • freeinpa

    WOW Scathing comments with no action. I apologize that is the looney left.

  • 53_3

    “IQ0.3
    Dumber by the day. Tell mom she needs to start to watering you twice a day and sprinkle baking soda (It will keep the stench down).

    .
    Getting better with the insults. Makes me cry that you subtracted some from my IQ, but it still leaves CH4 with a 2000, O3 with a 80, SO2 with a 40, and H2O with a 200 greenhouse effectiveness index. Nice try, though.
    .
    Is ACORN bigger than K Street, freetopee? YES What K Street Does you may not like but its legal- What ACORN does will lead to indictments in over 30 states.
    .
    So far as I know, the ACORN thing has fizzled due to some rather blatant miscues on the part of the GOP talking heads. Let’s wait and see. As for institutionalized corruption, well, if that is your bag, then go with it. But don’t expect anyone to take you seriously.
    .
    “And what “climate control fraud”? Have somebody read the news to you. The data long suspected by people with a brain and not an agenda was cooked.”
    .
    Well, that’s one way to wipe out 200 years of scientific advancements. Like I said, you don’t, but I do know when data is “cooked” or any semblance thereof. Just like with the Black community, you show a glaring ignorance of science – even after being presented with facts.
    .
    “Didn’tcha know that CO2 is a greenhouse gas? Yes and you and Algore are the biggest gaseous source of hot air.”
    .
    Thank you velly much. In the meantime, it’s:
    53_3………………..3
    freetopee………….0

  • 53_3

    modi43
    .
    Not too good for you. Not a dent in that long, looooooong list of Bush miscues. In the meantime, you might be able to throw what might be, but even then:
    .
    As for defiecits, you certainly didn’t even want to know that Bernanke, under Bush handed out $7,200,000,000,000 from the Treasury coffers without any oversight whatsoever!
    .
    As for the health care system, to put in Palinese:
    .
    Doncha know, it’s already wrecked!
    .
    Har. Har har. Hardeharhar. You looze….

  • 53_3

    Freetopee:
    .
    How about try using some facts.
    .
    You know, those thingies that Webster’s mentions just before the word ‘farce’ and ‘face’…

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    …shouldn’t you be busy calling some Jewish govt. officials traitors?
    Well, if Klein won’t, I will. Although I’d take it a step further and suggest that not merely Jewish government officials, but the near entirety of Congress are traitors. When you cower to the demands of AIPAC, despite a detrimental backlash to the United States’ image abroad and further jeopardization of United States’ interests were such demands to be implemented, you are a traitor. When you force all foreign lobbies to register as agents of a foreign government, but you give AIPAC an exemption, you are a traitor. When you allow AIPAC to register as a Public Affairs Committee, rather than a Political Action Committee, thus allowing it to fudge Congressional funding, you are a traitor. When you allow AIPAC policy staffers into the legislative committees tasked with authoring bills, you are a traitor. When you sign your name to a letter to the President supposedly articulating your sentiments, knowing that the letter was in fact written by AIPAC, you are a traitor. When you elevate the interest of Israel above the interests of the United States, you are a traitor. And, when you confuse the interests of the United States with those of Israel, when in fact they are inverse, you are nothing more than a proxy, a pawn to be used to further deleterious intent.
    ~
    But Israel is our ally, you may proclaim. If this were true, though, would Israel not extend to us the same protections we extend to her? The extent to which Israel has furthered American interests is precisely nil:
    .
    1955: Lavon Affair; Israeli Mossad agents, posing as Muslim Brotherhood militants, caught attempting to bomb US and British locations in Egypt in an attempt to subvert a budding relationship between the Egyptians and the West.
    .
    1967: USS Liberty is bombed by Israeli aircraft killing 34 US servicemen and wounding another nearly 200.
    .
    1983: Mossad surveillance team with intelligence of an impending bombing watches as Hezbollah militants detonate a truck bomb at the US Marine base in Beirut; Mossad headquarters had given explicit orders to the team not to intervene or warn American personnel.
    .
    1984: After CIA agent Bill Buckley is kidnapped and murdered in Lebanon, internal Mossad memos surface revealing that they knew about the abduction, and opted not to get involved, as a dead CIA agent would further the US-Israeli alliance against radical Islam
    .
    1985: US Navy analyst, Jonathan Pollard, arrested for passing sensitive intelligence to his Israeli handlers
    .
    1989: Victor Ostrovsky defects from Mossad and warns American officials of Israeli black-flag operations aimed at blaming Arabs for acts of terrorism around the world, included the nightclub bombing in Germany which killed US servicemen, whereby Mossad falsely attributed the attack to Libyans.
    .
    1997: Suspicion of a mole inside the Clinton White House after NSA intercepts phone call to Danny Yatom, Head of Mossad. Suspicion of wiretapping in the White House. Earlier in Clinton Administration an overhaul of the White House communications had been done, the lead contractor being Israeli firm, Amdoc.
    .
    2001: US Army publishes report citing the growing risk of Mossad carrying out attacks against the US and blaming Arab terrorists.
    .
    2005: Pentagon analyst Lawrence Franklin indicted on 6 counts relating to funneling classified information to AIPAC lobbyists Steven Rosen and Keith Weissman (also indicted) as well as a top Israeli diplomat.
    .
    2008: After FBI and Justice Department exposes Israeli agent Ben-Ami Kadish in US, CIA Agent Roland Carnaby is gunned down in Houston where known Mossad ring was operating. Carnaby had been a vocal critic of Israeli spying in the US.
    .
    2001-2009: Over 200 Israeli spies arrested and deported to Israel for spying, acts of sabotage, and attempted bombings/assassinations to be carried out under the guise of “Arab radicals”

  • grape_crush

    …there are always two sides to every story and truth is somewhere in between.
    .
    So the Earth is isn’t flat or round. Got it.
    .
    Now for the Great Convex Versus Concave Debate.

  • shepherdwong

    “How about try using some facts.”
    .
    Maybe we should shoot for simple coherence before we go for the moon.

  • freeinpa

    IQ0.0

    Your arguments are not arguments at all. As the liberals always do (if you don’t yell racist first) you declare the debate over use some nonsensical comments, then congratulate your self on your brilliance.

    Tell mom to keep watering!

  • 3xfire3

    53_3
    Sounds like my comments in 22 fit you to a T.
    Why are you so full of hate. In a democracy you can disagree with the views of others, but you don’t need to personally attack them. When you do this it only illustrates how closed minded you are.

  • 3xfire3

    grape_crush
    If you would ever open your closed mind you might gather enough true information to understand the real world. There are 2 sides to every story and truth is somewhere in between. If you have both education and experience then you will have the wisdom to understand this.
    3xfire3 a 70 year old Navy Vet and proud of it.

  • 53_3

    What?
    .
    You declare yourself the winner totally bereft of facts?
    .
    Emperor, where are your clothes…

  • 53_3

    Oh, I almost forgot:
    .
    I didn’t say you were a racist. Hell no! Far from it.
    .
    I said, and I repeat:
    .
    You know nothing about the Black community.

  • 53_3

    You are right, shep.
    .
    I tried to point out where in Webster’s he would find the definition, but I have to agree:
    .
    A “fact” is a concept far beyond him at this point.
    .
    Maybe teach him to roll over instead?

  • 53_3

    Agreed.

  • 53_3

    As I remember, when Bush ruled the world, everybody that disagreed with him, and I include the victims of Katrina, bless their souls, were fascists, communists or worse.
    .
    Or is this a case of “our”* guys, even when they do bad, are good just because they’re “ours”*?
    .
    *yours

  • 53_3

    So then, since that’s a wash, what about “Next time, we’ll bring our guns!”?

  • 53_3

    Did you read the posts, all of them? There is indeed a looooooong list of Bush miscues.
    .
    What I would do is look at the facts, and keep in mind that I wasn’t the first, and I won’t be the last, to throw a barb.
    .
    Least of all, after all the hate I’ve seen bandied so routinely by your peers, maybe you should focus on your own party’s house, and get it in order before you lecture, emptily, and incredulously, someone else on the subject of hate.
    .
    I could degenerate this into a literal storm of links to videos of GOP hate mongers, so what I would do if I were you is to focus your efforts and your lectures about hate on them first!

  • freeinpa

    Its the Wit Brothers: Dim & Half.

    Facts. Facts You keep yammering about facts but always manage to substitute your vacuous opinion. Your sanctimonious declarations are not facts just the blathering of 2 idiots

    You are a**hats pretending to be relevant. No wonder you are big Obama fans. Equally arrogant and brutally inept and not worth any further response on anything.

    You can continue your moronic rants about Bush, Beck and Palin and giggle to yourself over your brilliance. I will admit reading your both responses does strengthen arguments for abortion.

  • 53_3

    Freetopee:
    .
    I put up links. As for the greenhouse index of those gasses, that’s not opinion either.
    .
    As for my comments about your knowledge of the scientific community, that isn’t opinion either. You don’t know, and I posted links to Karl Popper’s book describing how scientific consensus is achieved. So that isn’t my opinion either.
    .
    As for the Black community, it is plain that you don’t, and I’ve provided many, many links alluding to the real motivations of Black Americans, and you spout Rush Limbaugh.
    .
    That isn’t opinion either!
    .
    On any, and every other subject freetopee, you have a bad habit of tossing an insult and dodging the real issues, which, time and again, all of us routinely best you on.
    .
    Maybe you need to pull your ostrich head out of the soft sandy blindness of FOXworld and get the real picture of just what and why this planet and this country is the way it is.
    .
    You can’t. The facts have to fit your ideology, and they simply don’t. You know I would dispose of you like the dirty snotrag you are, freetopee…

  • 53_3

    Oh, modi43:
    .
    Perhaps you’d like to peruse http://www.newamericancentury.org and look up the 1999, 1998, 2000, and 2001 documents written by the authors of that war, in their own hands.
    .
    Note that all of the dates preceed the start of that war.
    .
    Now, as to denial, don’t try.
    .
    This website was the official GOP home of the Bush Doctrine and was maintained by them until 2008. It is now somewhat in mothballs but every bit of Joe Klein’s assertions are documented by none other than themselves.
    .
    Now how is that for facts? Eh?

  • 53_3

    FYI, Exiled:
    .
    Have you checked out http://www.newamericancentury.org? It’s my guess that you have already, but it would be some very interesting reading for you if you hadn’t.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    I’m very familiar with the American Century, authored by Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Co. back in the late 1980s and then their subsequent letter to President Clinton in the ’90′s urging military build-up to counter some abstract future national security crisis that would precipitate a global military domination by the US ushering in a century of American led peace, the Pax Americana. I’ll check out this New American Century and see if it is a continuation or something altogether nascent.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Ah, yes, I have seen this before, actually. It’s essentially the same idea, although carefully crafted in “global leadership” terminology. It’s a slightly more savvy, and PC, perspective that is, at its core, the same proposal sought by the early neocons.

  • freeinpa

    IQ0.0

    See 27.3

  • modi43

    Exiled_at_Home – thank you for revealing the anti-Semitism that exists on much of the left these days. The entire congress are traitors under the vicious control of those malicious Jews. Don’t you know their elders meet in basements to plot the world’s course (when they aren’t putting children’s blood in matzah, of course)? Wow.

    Israel can’t get Jonathan Pollard freed, can’t get the U.S. to move it embassy to Jerusalem and couldn’t prevent Arafat from being the foreign leader with the most visits to the Clinton White House (and can’t get soldier Gilat Shalit freed from Hamas), but we can start wars and control the U.S. govt regarding Iraq. Makes perfect sense, very logical. OK, I have to go count my gold money sacks….

    (Joe Klein – these are your ideological co-travelers. How proud are you?).

  • modi43

    53_3

    Yeah, Klein is a real prophet, which is why he was for the war before he was against it. One of the reasons he is pissed at Wehner is because Wehner called him out on that. Just to summarize:

    Klein wrote about incivility towards American presidents, but “forgot” to mention the 9/11 “truthers.” I brought them up in a comment. Your “disprove” this by bringing up documents about the Iraq war. Um, OK. Or maybe you are trying to tell us that you, too, are a truther? What else do you believe in? No moon landing? Santa Claus? And then one of your ideological co-patriots writes that all of Congress is held hostage by those insidious Jews, and you are silent. Funny how you comment so often, but now you are silent…

  • diecash1

    “thank you for revealing the anti-Semitism that exists on much of the left these days.”
    .
    Try not to paint with such a broad brush. You might be better off constraining your rants to the individual making the assertion, not “much of the left these days.”

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    modi~
    Actually, I am a staunch conservative on most issues. Opposition to Israel is not a leftist ideal. Anyway, thanks for furthering my position by attempting to discredit me with baseless allegations of anti-Semitism. Zionism is an ideology, I am a self-avowed anti-Zionist. However, semitism has no bearing on this discussion, whatsoever. This is a political discussion based on the policies and influence of the Israeli government, not the Jewish people.

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