Senate Health Care Vote

“Joe Lieberman, the Senator from Aetna”
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“Ben Nelson, the Senator from Omaha Mutual”
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Thanks, Joe.

just for the sake of it, even though i totally agree with you on a gut level, im just gonna pick your suggestions apart.
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1.It would make good politics, but lousy policy. Adding about 635 new members isn’t really gonna help the exchanges. Merging the Federal Employees Health Benefits Plan with the exchanges (which ought to be national and sliding in large corporations progressively over 10-15 years until all health insurance is traded within the exchange would be much better.
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2. Killing the anti-trust agreement would make for brilliant politics, absolutely. And might even make marginal sense in terms of bringing real competition. But at some point, we have to realize that the reason health care inflation is growing so rapidly is mostly because of provider networks. Meaning, we can juice insurance prices only so much (which we ought/need to), but there’s a reason we’d prefer to link the PO to medicare. It would make us stronger vs the providers. If you weaken insurers too much without taking providers down with you, you’re only making the problem that much worse.
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3. I can’t argue against the Wyden amendment It’s the best we could get besides actually getting his bill.
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But yes, the PO’s premiums will be higher. It prolly will not engage in adverse risk selection (hope i got that right) which means the sickest people will just shift onto it first of all because they expect the gov’t option to be cheaper and because qualification will be less of a hassle. If your pool of customers will be sicker, your premiums will be higher. And unfortunately, that’s even with the fact that CBO says it will be more efficiently managed than private insurance. Stronger risk adjustment would go a long way toward leveling the playing field.

Joe Klein:

3. Thanks to Oregon’s Ron Wyden, the Senate bill contains a provision that will allow employees of companies that offer health care plans to go to a public exchange, if the exchange offers a plan they like better than the benefits they’re getting on the job. That’s an excellent idea…and it should be expanded. Any company that wants to offer its employees health benefits via the Exchange route should be allowed to do so. The more people involved in the Exchange system, the better the rates are likely to be and the more choices offered.

Wait a second…what?
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Are you sure about that?
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That’s gigantic, if true. Yes, it is an amazingly good idea.
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That claim needs to be fact-checked, which I (and hopefully others) will do.
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This was Matt Yglesias explaining in September how Wyden’s plan couldn’t make it into the bill( Link to Yglesias ):

…the reason opening the Exchange will violate the pledge to prevent anyone from losing their current coverage is that existing employer-based pools will be destabilized if people are allowed to leave them.
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A lot of companies that currently offer group insurance would find themselves unable to continue to do so if half their employees left the plan to join an Exchange plan. They would find themselves with no choice but to stop offering insurance coverage, start offering higher wages, and send all their employees into the Exchange.
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This isn’t a “problem” with Wyden’s idea. It’s a good idea. Severing the link between employment and insurance would be a good idea. Giving people more choice between insurance plans would be a good idea. Giving people more control over what proportion of their total compensation comes in the form of health insurance would be a good idea. But even though it’s a good idea, it’s a good idea precisely because it would destabilize current arrangements and there’s very little political support for doing that.
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…there’s a totally non-mysterious reason why it’s not included in any of the health reform packages approved by five different congressional committees—it’s totally at odds with Barack Obama’s repeated promise to avoid forcing anyone who currently has insurance to change their coverage. You just can’t square Wyden’s idea with Obama’s promise. And though Obama’s promise is substantively not a great concession to make, it’s absolutely central to the White House’s political strategy.

If you are correct about this, Joe Klein, then it could turn a lot of sinking liberal opinion around about the value of this reform legislation. I hope that you are completely accurate in your characterization.

Would you mind citing the page which substantiates your claim, Joe:
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“My favorite provision requires that all members of Congress give up their federally-funded health care benefits and join the health care exchanges that will be set up by this bill”.

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Also, praise be to Allah. Finally a TIME journalist who says this…
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“The question David Gregory should have asked next was: So if you want more competition, as you say, are you in favor of lifting the anti-trust exemption that health insurers now enjoy?”

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Would you want to also give credit to the many Republicans who have been calling for this from the beginning too?

Joe Klein the journalist from Dumber than Rocks Daaily

Maybe the MSM could pull some of the fact checkers off Sarah Palin’s book and begin to look at the health care bill and maybe try to report what will really happen. Not likely since as much as liberals claim Republicans want to kill the bill, liberals want to pass it at all costs regardless of service, coverage, premium costs and increased deficit.

The bill is , to put it politely, smoke and mirrors. To put it in context of folks here it is one lie after another.

More than one liberal source has admitted that taxing for 5 years before putting out the benefits is kicking the can down the road. Harvard’s Dean of the Medical School has stated it does not address costs.

Congress will be part of the “public option” Until it happens, then they will exempt themselves. These are the same guys that passed reduced payments for doctors from medicare then void it every year.

So it doesn’t address costs, it doesn’t cover everybody, coverage will fall and rationing will begin in earnest. Hey but everybody should feel good about passing a bill that offers nothing but third world status to this country.

Joe Klein:
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I’m really, really unhappy to say: Nope, you’re wrong.
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When you describe the Wyden provision as “a provision that will allow employees of companies that offer health care plans to go to a public exchange, if the exchange offers a plan they like better than the benefits they’re getting on the job,” that’s inaccurate.
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The unqualified term “employees” is the inaccurate part. It’s not that all employees get the “free choice” that Wyden is after on our behalf, it’s that a very small “qualified” minority of employees get the option so many of us wish we had.
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You, yourself wouldn’t be given the free choice Wyden’s provision proposes, Joe Klein, and here’s Ron Wyden’s press release to explain why ( link to Wyden’s press releas on his minuscule “free choice” provision ):

Under the Senate legislation as it is currently written, Americans with employer-provided coverage, whose income is below 400 percent of the federal poverty level and whose premiums are between 8 and 9.8 percent of their total income will be exempt from having to purchase health coverage but will not be able to access the exchange to qualify for government assistance to purchase insurance. The agreed to amendment will make it possible for these individuals to convert their tax-free employer health subsidies into vouchers that they can use to choose a health insurance plan in the new health insurance exchanges. The Congressional Budget Office estimates a previous version of this provision will expand coverage to more than a million Americans.

Wow, 1 million Americans are affected by the provision.
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Super.
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A whopping 0.33333333333333337% of the country who make little enough and whose premiums fall into the bizarre donut hole of between 8 and 9.8 percent of their total income get free choice between what their employers hand down to them and what Congresspeople get to purchase in the exchange.
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I’m sorry to have to tell you this, Joe Klein, but you really need to update and correct that 3) of yours, because it isn’t actually true. The majority of us don’t get free choice because of Wyden’s provision, as worthy as it is. We are stuck with lower and lower pay and whatever coverage our employers can get away with.
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When Yglesias said:

A lot of companies that currently offer group insurance would find themselves unable to continue to do so if half their employees left the plan to join an Exchange plan. They would find themselves with no choice but to stop offering insurance coverage, start offering higher wages, and send all their employees into the Exchange.

, he was right.
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Please update your post, Joe Klein, so that readers aren’t left with the false impression that the Senate bill allows employees free choice in the matter of their health care coverage. It doesn’t. It’s an excellent idea that is only symbolically included in the bill, and excludes the vast majority of Americans from having a say in their coverage.
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Thanks in advance for the correction, Joe Klein.

When someone had the actual temerity to call Lieberman out for lying (Brian Beutler of TPM-none of David Gregory style, weak sauce, news celebrities would ever do anything so uncouth) and claiming that no one ever talked about any public option back during the presidential campaign, he brushed it off with a “whatever…I don’t like it anyway”. The man is probably the most dishonest person in a Senate full of some really dishonest and despicable characters. I see red whenever I hear other Democratic Senators just throw their arms up and do the whole “what can we do” routine when pretty much every single one of them supported him when he lost his primary.

Third World status? How so, freetopeeupyourownnose?
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Premium increases? Mine went up already.
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Public Option? Hey, if you can convince Pennsylvania to opt out, then hells bells, freetopee, go for it!
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States’ rights! Remember that? Or does that only apply to Civil Rights issues?
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Coverage will fall? It has happened for the rest of the planet.
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Rationing? How much rationing is implied in your idiotic assertion that “health care is a privilage, not a right”?
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Let’s not mention that we just had a high-profile example of real death panels run by HCICs!
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Third world status? Explain yourself. I’m waiting to see just how many Southern Strategy codewords you insert in your explanation!

And, if you are single and making more than $43,320 (400% of FPL) you will not qualify for the Wyden proposal.
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Family of 2 – $58,280
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For more you can figure it out for yourself, here is the link.
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http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/09poverty.shtml
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All the Wyden proposal would do is drive out employees from their employer sponsored plan into an exchange. The employer will simply stop providing insurance coverage to anyone else.
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If you are above 400% of poverty, you will be on your own to find your own insurance plan. Period. A cost that has been determined by the CBO which is more than what we are currently paying under our employers plan.
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Gee great, not only will I be taxed and possibly penalized and thrown into jail. Now I get to pay even more for the coverage I currently have!
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Thank you Harry, Nancy and Barack!

[...] this article: Senate Health Care Vote – Swampland – TIME.com Uncategorized all-members, and-join, care-benefits, care-exchanges, congress, deserve-notice, [...]

[...] link: Senate Health Care Vote – Swampland – TIME.com all-members , and-join , care-benefits , care-exchanges , congress , deserve-notice , federally , [...]

freeinpa:
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When discussing anything with IQ53, you may want to get out your copy of Glenn Beck’s, “Arguing with Idiots”.
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Otherwise, IQ53 is not worth the time. He only knows how to shout out his 3rd grade talking points he learned from his other little friends in the White House.

And irony of ironies, Patrick Kennedy has been banned from receiving communion in Rhode Island because of his position. This is truly outrageous. Blasphemous, even (misusing the name of God).

So wouldn’t it be nice if all those who were worried 49 years ago about a Catholic becoming President because the Catholic Church would dictate policy would now rise up and demand that their elected representatives kick the representatives of the Catholic Church out of the capitol, and embrace Patrick Kennedy for standing up to the Church the way Jack promised to do.

I’d agree with this: “It’s really bad theology,” said Winters, who opposes abortion. “You’re turning the altar rail into a battle field, a political battlefield no less, and it does a disservice to the Eucharist.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34091312/ns/us_news-faith/

…I still consider the public option a relatively small bit of business…
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If only the giant insurance corporations were as wise as you, Joe. They could have saved hundreds of $millions trying to defeat that “relatively small bit of business”.
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And do share your wisdom on the politics of forcing young, healthy, progressives and libertarian independents to buy insurance form the same corporations who have been caught abusing (and killing) their customers for years, when they manage to buy-off the people’s elected representatives, lie about the likely effects of reform measures and deny the public real competition and reform.

[...] From Swampland: [...]

“When discussing anything with IQ53, you may want to get out your copy of Glenn Beck’s, “Arguing with Idiots”.”
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Good lord. You need help to sound that stupid?

Exactly correct shepherdwong.
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Reading JK on HCR has been painful throughout this long process.

“Good lord. You need help to sound that stupid?”

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Only when I want to stoop to IQ53′s level, I want to make sure I find the really stupid rebuttals to his even more stupid comments.

Wyden doesn’t unfortunately do what you say it does. if it meant that every currently insured American could shop around and opt out of the plan their employer offered in exchange for something better that’d be great. But it doesn’t. Very few people will have a choice. As I read it, if your employer plan qualifies under some very loose standards you have to use it.

It’s FISA all over again. Wrong on the facts, wrong on the politics and too stubborn and prideful to admit it.

rusty:

Fear not. IQ53 may respond and I use “respond” in the best and most liberal (no pun intended) interpretation of that term but I learned long ago hie is an ignorant imbecilic blowhard for which no response is warranted or needed. There are more intelligent conversations to be had with animals, footwear and pretty much any inanimate object known than with IQ 53

What is amusing is the rest of the liberal s here who demand “facts” and reason and doctoral thesis and berate others for less than what they determine is less than brilliant responses. And yet they try to have discourse with IQ53. Even Beck would shake his head at that effort.

His diatribes are typical of liberals and yet they will degrade Beck, Rush Palin et al but cheer on liberal knuckleheads

you two buttsniffing again?
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Never mind. Neither of you have been able to successfully rebut any of the points I’ve made in the past, in the present, or, just as likely, in the future.
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Like I told 2/3rds of a terrorist, whom you both know and love precisely for his traitorous, violent, pro terrorist views, you have only yourselves to blame…

JK — When are you going to get it, the media framing is as much a part of the problem as the lies told by opponents of reform. The media is the major impetus for driving public opinion so when the public is confused, or concerned that reform will have an adverse aspect, there’s little doubt that negative framing by the mainstream press is partly to blame. Even now the conversation is all about what 60 Senate Democrats will do. The media narrative being, if Democrats, with a 60 seat majority can’t get this done then they must be useless. Of course, that’s not even close to the truth, nor is it even the most Dramatic representation, so it begs the question why the media has chosen to ignore the unprecedented role of the GOP obstruction?

When are you going to insist that your brethren be honest and stop only covering the political fallout of Democratic failure and also cover the potential fallout of Republican obstruction. You do realize there would be a fallout if someone other than just EJ Dionne would write about GOP political tactics that directly causing thousands of Americans already hanging by a thread to lose their life line of unemployment because the GOP decided to play games passing the extension. Sure the GOP finally got around to passing the bill but not until after thousands of Americans missed meals and missed rents ending up hungry, homeless and utterly devastated despite it being totally avoidable. I mean one good story with some quotes of say a family who had a member commit suicide from the pressure of being at their wits end and having their life-line ripped from their grasp for no other purpose than to make Democratic governance that much more difficult. Now that’s what I call real government death panels.

Where is the balance? You have both sides commenting on what Democrats should do, What the President should do, when you and your brethren know full well that the degree of GOP obstruction is unprecedented. At this critical juncture, with everything riding on our ability as a nation to reinvent ourselves, you half the country taking their ball and going home, as a result of the GOP abdicating their responsibility to participate in fixing our problems and making a difficult job that much harder.

Of course, I don’t expect you to actually answer the question. It’s clear that the media is fully engaged in their favorite past time, trying to dismantle a Democratic administration or at least render it incapable of doing anything. I guess destroying the Clinton administration wasn’t enough, y

Dick Armey’s “Freedomworks” comes to mind…

Did I mention “seditious”.
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Oh, well, never mind…

I read today about a Senator being willing to lose his seat to vote for the health-insurance reform. “Integrity,” you might say, or “betrayal” (of his constituents). But I think this misses the point–meaning the role of the US Senate as a check on the House (and us).
See: http://euandus3.wordpress.com/2009/11/22/integrity-in-the-job-description-of-a-us-senator/

On the subject of trying to not be biased, I am going to post Joe’s last paragraph, without comment:
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“This, most health insurance experts believe, is the best way to rebuild the U.S. health care system–through regional public exchanges or one big national exchange that will offer a range of health insurance options. Such a system will make it easier to regulate the health insurers and monitor the system. I’d like to see an Exchange system that includes all Medicaid and Medicare recipients as well. True fairness demands that every American receives the same choice of benefits at the same choice of rates.”

Rusty

See above

Defense rests. But notice the silence from the rest of the lambs!

Off topic but im kinda shaken by bill moyers’ documentary pulling all those old LBJ NSA phone calls. (NSA used loosely. More like his national security apparatus)
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I mean the similarities to afghanistan and to obama’s deliberative approach are just stunning. Question is, if it ever becomes clear to Obama that the war becomes unwinnable, does he have the strength and resolve to end it?
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I posted this on this thread because im kinda hoping Joe Klein will be tempted to see the tapes and kinda let us know if they have any impact on his appraisal of our war efforts.

[...] Joe Klein at Swampland at Time: There are a couple of aspects of this historic vote that deserve notice here: [...]

Demos business as usual!

Louisiana purchase of $300 million (Bribery)

Jesse Jackson: ‘You can’t vote against healthcare and call yourself a black man’ (race card)

But even some of the old faithful are having a bout of conscience.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/20/AR2009112002618_pf.html

One aspect of the health plan for federal employees seems not to have seen much discussion around here: employees pay a significant portion of the cost of whatever plan they choose. Uncle Sam pays more than half the premium, but the employee covers the rest. Also, there are copays and deductibles in most of them, and many are HMOs that considerably limit access outside the plan.
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I’m not all that typical,but just so we can have a rough order of magnitude here, I estimate that I’m paying more than five grand a year for medical care even though I have Blue Cross and Blue Shield through the federal plan. And that doesn’t include such off-the-plan items as optometrists and dentists (with rare exceptions that never seem to apply to me).
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This is the same plan that Congress has. It’s not gold-plated, but it’s pretty good despite its defects. I may pay several thousand dollars a year for all health care, but what I get is in the aggregate worth far more than that (at least at today’s prices).
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The obvious questions for anyone looking about for health care are: How much coverage, and at what price? With so many different plans still in play, and with major changes still likely, how can anyone know whether they will be better off under the new regime? Ideology aside, what’s good about the legislation and what’s bad? SZ seems closer to the truth than anyone else whose commentary I’ve seen. Maybe the High Sheriffs should hire him to blog here.
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Meanwhile, it’s not a bad idea to put Congress under the same plan as everyone else. Not that the federal plan is gold-plated, but it’s pretty good, and I’m certainly not complaining about it, considering the alternatives. Congresspeople who remember how the federal plan works will indeed try to get similar benefits out of the new exchanges if they’re lumped in with millions of ordinary folk. It’s amazing how concerned they get when their ox is the one being gored. I’ve seen traffic lights in DC adjusted because some Congressperson didn’t like their timing. Imagine what they could do if they decided they didn’t like the medical exchange they were assigned to.
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Single-payer remains the only way to tackle all (well, most) of the vices of our current health care system. I just don’t know how we can get there from here.

Joe Klein:
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Still looking for that correction…

bobel: I’m also a federal employee. The government’s share of our health plan is roughly 2/3′s. With my share plus what I had to pay out of pocket last year (very bad year for my wife), I shelled out 10 grand. That included co-pays, deductibles and prescriptions. We hit the catastrophic coverage threshhold.

I think the “States’ Rights” version of UHC is all we really need for groundwork, bobell.
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That way, red states can opt out, and blue states can opt in.
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Then we can see just how green each others’ lawns are and have actual results to go by for the next step.
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How much does anyone wanna bet that the opt-out Red state’s health care “lawn” will be a lot browner, eh?
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I mean, the GLOP, er, GOP* will then have to put it’s money where it’s mouth is. What could be better (exc of course, going straight to single payer and dumping this travesty we call a “health care” system.
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Just like someone astutely observed that we do not have a justice system, we have a legal system, we also do not have a health care system. Instead, we have a health insurance system…
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Excuuuuuuse me!

Socialized medicine. Yes please.

It is a Sunday, SZ. Was nice of him to post at all. But we shouldn’t expect corrections or explanations on a non-business day. Wouldn’t EOD tomorrow be sufficient here?

All of Joe’s fact checkers must still be reading Sarah Palin’s book

[...] Senate Health Care Vote – Swampland – TIME.com [...]

freeinpa: A friend of mine just bought it and I’m going to read it next. He insists that I give him my new Stepehen King as a hostage for it’s safe return.

Exactly shepherdwong.
Blanche Lincoln whined about how puny and insignificant the pulbic option is…right before she vowed to hold up significantly important and historical legislation if it was included.

sacredh:

Well you just may learn something

Troll!
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Progressives…any repudiation of this off-topic trollery?

[...] Senate Health Care Vote – Swampland – TIME.com [...]

Had to laugh at this, Joe:

The question David Gregory should have asked next was: So if you want more competition, as you say, are you in favor of lifting the anti-trust exemption that health insurers now enjoy?

Expecting Gregory to be any more than a head-nodder to whatever pablum spews forth on his program is expecting far too much from him. He’s the lightest of lightweights.

Hell, he was peddling the mammogram and pap smear lies this morning as if he had just received the publicity release from Karl Rove, himself.

Pathetic.

If it takes this level of debate and discussion and still leave one puzzled by the way HCR has been discussed and reported on thus far how can one expect the folks who have little time to spend on this issue to resist the lies and distortions spread by the insurance scammers..

The whole Sunday talk show game is replete with guests delivering platitudes and hosts who absorb the lies and deceits of the “Leibermans” without demur.

The Senate’s “Democratic plus one Independent” Gang of Four is a curse on our body politic. To say I am very disappointed is putting it mildly.

Health care reform is now an inevitability, but do Republicans scar the accomplishment so much with their rhetoric that the public buys their argument and reform becomes a dud?

http://www.political-buzz.com/

Matt,

The republicans will only scar themselves by having their obstruction come back to bite them in the 2010 and 2012 elections.

What will scar the accomplishment is, however, the massive howling that will be delivered by so-called progressives once the public option is watered down sufficiently to get the bill passed.

I favour the public option, but I favour helping 30-40 million people get proper health insurance more. My fear is that the over-concentration on the public option will overwhelm the positive aspects of the bill. That, however, is a political problem and will not, thankfully, do anything to impact the fact that the bill contains some seriously good reforms.

Keep living the delusion guys. If/when a form of health care reform passes, that outrage from the public will be loud and clear. The Demos are tone deaf to pass something that will explode the deficit. Spare me the argument about the CBO. There has never been a government entitlement program that was ever deficit neutral. Unemployment will be over 12% and rising. Most people see jobs and the economy as the most important issue NOT health care reform.

Soon enough health care reform will go done as the biggest liberal lie after Global Warming.

Freeinpa,

Not sure I understand your last sentence. Are you saying that there is not a scientific consensus about the existence of healthcare reform?

As to the so-called outrage from members of the public, I predict this: nothing, no outrage, no outpouring of support, nothing. Sure for a few weeks there will be a media clusterf**k about the bill, then it will be a process story about how the bill actually got passed, the heroes (Pelosi, Reid, Baucus), the villains (Lieberman, Palin, the republicans in general). There will also be the obligatory story about how the bill passed notwithstanding Obama’s aloofness, general lack of willingness to get involved. But after a few months, people will just get on with their lives, the republic will still stand – it’s just that there will a few more people in the US who will be able to get health insurance.

I will go further to predict this: if the bill passes before the end of this year, it will simply just NOT be an issue in the mid-terms next year – either for or against. It will be the economy, unemployment and afghanistan.

homerhk

The last sentence goes to the liberal scaremongering that went on with global warming. What is leaking out and suspected by many is that the data was fudged. The crisis in the mind of the left. Same with HC. We have already seen analysis that shows doing nothing will be less expensive than the bill before Congress.

And you confirm the delusion believing nothing will happen if/when it passes. Unemployment will sky-rocket and the heath care deform will be the culprit. Check out the vote in the gold and US dollar markets this morning gold up up $22.50 and the dollar down 0.7% as a rsult of the growing debt. No one but the left believes that HC won’t add to it. Lon live your delusion.

Obama is not aloof, he is out of his weight class. He is truly nothing but the First Tourist!

It’ s nice that freep included his last little swipe at Gobal warming because it reminds us that his entire basis of thought includes never letting such pesky details like ‘evidence’ and ‘data’ interfere with a compelling storyline. Not only does he know better than climatologists, he knows better than the CBO.

His ability to quote Reaganite doctrine trumps any ability to consider evidence.

What makes it particularly sad is that there always was a small germ of truth contained within Reaganite doctrine. But the inability to adjust to changing circumstances proved absolutely fatal in actual practice.

No Paul the evidence points that any government entitlement has never been budget neutral. Check out Social Security when it was passed.

And check out the emails being posted on the web about how data was fudged or coerced. The liberal tag line the debate is over won’t work anymore. The NYT is already spinning saying it won’t publish “illegally” obtained documents. (http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/11/nytimes_we_wont_publish_statem.asp) Funny how liberals get a conscience over their pet projects but have no qualms about leaking security secrets as the NYT has done.

And while you may see a small germ of truth in Reaganite doctrine, liberal doctrine begins and ends with lies! The pathetic part is you continue to lie to yourself

“What is leaking out and suspected by many is that the data was fudged.”

No, what has come out is that the denialists are too stupid to read the emails they stole. The findings in question were actually confirmed independently by the NAS in 2006.

I guess that part was over freeinpa’s little head.

“The liberal tag line the debate is over won’t work anymore.”

… because the denialists think there are problems with one paper from eleven years ago, the findings of which have already been independently confirmed? Because they don’t know what a “trick” is or about the divergence issues in the data? Because they read a bunch of pilfered emails with a 2nd-grade education?

See? This is why the denialists don’t do science: they’re stupid.

Did you ever think those who are against this Bill, which the Democrats clearly have demonstrated they will ram down the throats of Americans is simply a bad and ugly Bill?
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Perhaps you also minimize most all Americans. I believe the apathy of the 70′s and 80′s has pretty much gone away. I believe that the vast majority of Americans are actively involved in their Government, it is evidenced right here in the swamp.
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You really do not need to know very much to understand that this Bill and all the rest of the Bills proposed so far from the Democrats in Congress, along with Obama’s fair share of input is simply not the kind of reform that Americans are seeking or hoping for.
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We know and understand the deficit is out of control. Spending is out of control. And, Democrats are out of control in their attempts to pass this legislation as written.
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Top that off with the fact that any discussions with Republican Representatives has been completely shut off. No bipartisian representation has been offered by the majority Party.
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Americans are demanding that full representation and consideration of alternatives be considered. The Democrats have basically said, “it’s our way or the highway, Jack”.
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I personally was hoping for a complete defeat of cloture, simply to say, go back now and re-write this bill with assist from your Republican colleagues. I hoped that Lincoln under pressure would have succumbed to the vast majority of her voters wishes not to proceed with this rediculous excuse for a health care reform bill.
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If they are simply going to pass a bill just so they can call it “health care reform”, but few people benefit from the changes, then this is simply NOT “change we can believe in” from Washington, Barack Obama or his cohorts in Congress.

@ 5.8 freeinpa

Actually, the silence began with 53_3 asked you a series of questions.

Not that anyone is surprised.

Freep is quite correct that Social Security is not “budget neutral.” For many years, though this one and continuing for several more, Social Security has been running a surplus — that is, revenues exceed expenditures. Without Social Security the budget deficits of all recent years (excluding that freakish time under Clinton when the entire Govt actually ran a surplus – remember?) would have been even higher.
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Okay, it looks as if Social Security will be going into deficit soon, but that can be fixed with little more than some minor tinkering. It’s Medicare and other medical expenditures (Medicaid, S-CHIP, etc) plus the cost of employer-provided and private insurance that will bankrupt the country. Fix: control medical costs. Method: single payer plus salaried doctors and nurses. “Socialized” medicine!
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No health care “reform” will lessen the burden on the economiy without those two repairs. All else is fantasy.

bobell:

“Okay, it looks as if Social Security will be going into deficit soon, but that can be fixed with little more than some minor tinkering.”

That’s French for tax hikes isn’t it? Before you know it the middle class between Fed, State, local, Medicare, Medicaid and HC “reform” will see about a 50% tax rate.

jaimymoore:

Yes if you can’t silence the critics, degrrade them. Talk about a 2nd grader’s approach. Now the LAT is saying science won’t matter it will be the economics. They are right but for the wrong reason. After Congress finished trying to pillage the public with HC deform, seeing utility bills double probably won’t go over to well.

@ freeinpa 26.4

“Yes if you can’t silence the critics, degrrade them. Talk about a 2nd grader’s approach.”

Oh, quite whining. I don’t want to silence the critics, I want them to keep talking! Because they’re making asses of themselves on the CRU emails, looking like a bunch of 2nd graders. They don’t know what any of it means, and they don’t know the research has already been independently reproduced.

That’s why they’re denialists: because they’re stupid.

You fell for it, here it is in black and white. Maybe you could email Joe Kline and beg him to take your posts down, so no one will see what an idiot you are?

[...] 23, 2009 at 12:30 pm Submit a Comment • Trackback (0) Two amplifications to my Sunday post on the Senate [...]

Well, freetopee, if you are so worried about deficits and outrageous wasting of money, why haven’t you mentioned Bernanke’s handout without any oversight whatsoever of $7,200,000,000,000 in the waning days of the Bush Administration.
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Add to that Bush’s own deficit of $1,200,000,000,000.
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So, are you saying, freetopee, that since those gifts of debt are coutesy of the GOP, they’re ok?
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Before you reply, keep in mind that insulting me alone without rebuttal of the issues won’t really work very well.
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And neither will Beck’s book…

jaimymoore

And yes none of the scientists at the NAS ever put pressure on any of their colleagues to view the climate change as anything but fact. Right!. There has been documented evidence that spreadsheets were copied incorrectly which “confirmed” global warming. Any questions is met with immediate derision. Al Gore, the blowhard who may actually be the cause of any increase in hot air, won’t debate anyone or answer any question. Why? Because their are more holes in the evidence than proof. Now the game is to change the topic from global warming to “climate change” .

The rush to pass something anything, just like health care is to have something in place when the liberal nonsense is finally gone. It will, it always does go away because its based on lies to the public, to each other and to themselves.

Freeinpa — You could raise the retirement age. You could means-test benefits. Neither would require raising [the t-word]. Or yes, you could raise taxes. You could achieve a means-tested tax increase by substantially raising the ceiling beyond which earned income is not subject to SS taxes. (All earned income is already subject to Medicare taxes.) You could even impose SS taxes on unearned income (interest, dividends, etc.), though that would be tricky. A careful combination of all of the above is probably most desirable. Meanwhile, for now SS is more than paying for itself.
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As for “degrrading” the critics, the chips fall where they fall. Ad hominem arguments usually stir resentment more than they englighten, and I try to eschew them. For example, I haven’t called you an idiot (at least not lately), have I? In the current sequence, I have corrected a factual error in what you posted and expressed an opinion with which you obviously disagree. Lots of us make factual errors. I myself do so every decade or so. Just admit you got the facts wrong and move on. As for opinions, lots of us differ among ourselves; that’s one primary reason we have the First Amendment– and these comments.
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To sum up: I try to deal in facts, on the basis of which I express opinions. If some statement of mine, whether of fact or of opinion, implies that someone else’s views are absurd, that comes with the territory.

Oh! I almost forgot this little tidbit for you, freetopee:
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If one were to pay off the GOP debt from the first day the Earth formed at zero interest, it would take the entire span of the Hadean, Archean, Proterozoic, and Phanerozoic eras to pay it off at the rate of $130 a month!
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Just another one of those bothersome facts, freetopee…

And, of course, freetopee, maybe it would help to understand it a little better if you knew that it is four times as much money as Obama would spend even if health care reform were included!

freeinpa:

“And yes none of the scientists at the NAS ever put pressure on any of their colleagues to view the climate change as anything but fact. Right!”

See? That’s freeinpa’s notion of evidence, as is the public branding changing to climate change. Wow! What a huge admission of scientific error!

Stupid climate creationist. No wonder he can’t get anything right.

Keep talking. Show everyone how stupid the denialists are.

[...] Joe Klein reports: My favorite provision requires that all members of Congress give up their federally-funded health care benefits and join the health care exchanges that will be set up by this bill. This is brilliant politics, addressing the tide of populist anger and fears of incipient socialism. But it also makes an important substantive point. The future of health care reform in this country will depend on how effectively the exchanges–health insurance super-stores–are working. If members of Congress have to participate in this system, you can bet they’ll insist on a array of choices, similar to the system they currently use, the Federal Employees Health Benefits Plan. [...]

freetopee:
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Did you know that the scientific consensus is clearly in favor of evolution (now corroborated by cladistics) and that the global warming debate is over like the KT mass extinction debate is over.
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Scientists don’t like politics at all, as a matter of fact, and have opposed political manipulation of data and / or research products for political gain throughout modern history.
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It is very, very simple, freetopee:
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Those that consider global warming a non-issue have not been able to muster valid scientific arguments to make their case strong enough. Like the opposition to KT boundary bolide impact as a real event, they did however, help to remove ambiguities and address problems with climate modeling.
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Keep in mind, freetopee, that there is very, very good paleoclimate data available from ice cores and ocean bottom cores.
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Overall, freetopee, your side lost a very protracted debate and failed to persuade the great majority of workers. As a consequence, grants and funding supporting further research in those areas shrank, just like Chuck Officer’s funding shrank when Chixchulub crater was found…

It seems in retrospect that Freetopee knows just about as much about the scientific community as he does about the Black community:
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Absolutely nothin’!*
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*Edwin Starr

All right, I will.

bobell:

“For example, I haven’t called you an idiot (at least not lately),”

LOL Not to my knowledge, but the bile and name calling flies fast and furious at anyone with any conservative view on this site. I have a thick skin and mostly ignore the knuckleheads on the left here like IQ35 (yes he got dumber!)

You assessment of SS and the Medi’s I believe to be correct however the only way the profiles in courage in DC will vote is taxes. As the baby boomers get near retirement means testing and raising the retirement age will go nowhere fast. There has never been a more entitled generation with little to show for its effort than the Baby boomers. (Ashamedly, I say that as a Boomer). As you go down the list just on this site: HC, War. SS, Medi’s, the general budget must-haves plus the state deficits, you would need the marginal rate on the “rich” to be about 135%.

And the winner for cutting thru teh irrelevant merde, and revealing the truth behind door number three, sheperdwong.

Rusty, I could have written much of what you did here. the current proposals are too watered down to affect the necessary change,The most important aspects of our current system which must be done away with are; the outrageous cost, two to three times most other countries, denial of legit claims by companies with no incentive to do other wise. Inequity,the wealthier you are the better your health care.Millions of our fellow citizens get no care at all, and lastly our place way down on the list of national health outcomes. What do you propose we do to fix these problems? I for one am ashamed of my country for allowing this, and you should be too.

Facts are evil,………. and, and ……….godless too!

dumber & dumber

[...] Klein stumbles on it: My favorite provision requires that all members of Congress give up their federally-funded health [...]

[...] Senate Health Care Vote There are a couple of aspects of this historic vote that deserve notice here: 1. My favorite provision requires that [...] [...]

“I’d love to know more about that one, given the add-on private costs of corporate profits and advertising”–Joe Klein.

Why, hell’s fire Joe, government waste, fraud, and pork will eat up more healthcare dollars than all the advertising and corporate profits of the insurance industry and several other industries combined. And the boys and girls who created a $12 trillion deficit for the federal government they manage, social-security and medicare programs that are actuarially bankrupt, are going to save us money on health care how??? And then there is the mandate: buy insurance or go to jail!

http://jesus-on-taxes.com/MANDATORY_INSURANCE–OVER_M.html