Is Nadal Malik Hasan’s Religion Relevant?

AMY..you are pathetic. this from CNN not Fox

He yelled” allah akbar allah akbar” while shooting.

He was on an FBI watch list for comments he made on a muslim blog

The morning of the shootings he gave copies of the Koran to his neighbors

last week he spoke to a muslim store owner and said he was at odds with being deployed and possibly having to shoot a muslim.

Gee.I don’t know Amy..I’m not sure if his religion had anything to do with it. It will be funny how the lib media will spin this.

The answer to your question is “yes”.
.
I think you caricature conservatives here. No responsible conservative thinks that Muslims in general should be subjected to increased surveillance or what have you simply because they are Muslim. However, one has to be blind to assume that there is no danger emanating from the Muslim community. The reality is that Muslim-inspired terror is a serious national security threat. And that threat has to be taken seriously.
.
And Amy, if you’re going to caricature conservatives by saying, “The position of some conservatives seems to be that it’s acceptable to assume that the perpetrators of evil acts are Muslim.”
.
Then you have to mention that people thought that the DC sniper was an “angry white male.”
.
And, while we’re at it Amy, what about Obama leaping to conclusions over l’affaire Gates? If you’re going to start down this road, making thinly veiled accusations of bias against conservatives, then where were you when Obama leaped to his conclusion?

And by the way, holding up Michelle Malkin as a spokesman for “conservatives” is a bit much.

And don’t forget, Amy, that Obama has cautioned against “jumping to conclusions”–pity that Officer Crowley didn’t get that consideration before Obama criticized him.
.
But I guess a white cop gets less consideration than a vicious murderer of 13 people.

From David Frum’s blog –

http://www.frumforum.com/the-shootings-at-fort-hood

Amy Sullivan:
.
This is maybe one of the most important pieces you’ve written here so far, and it is commendable in the extreme.

If it’s dangerous to dismiss the threat posed by radical Muslims, it’s no less dangerous to force an entire religious population to live under a cloud of suspicion until proven otherwise.

Yes.
.
This way internment camps lie…
.
It can be put no other way.
.
Americans are better than to blame people of another faith for the crimes of psychotics and fanatics. America is all about judging our fellow citizens on the basis of each individual’s merits.
.
Real Americans don’t give a crap about whether this lunatic murderer was a Mormon or a Muslim; all we care about are the primary tasks of comforting the bereaved, and then executing justice upon the actual perpetrator of evil.
.
We are a better nation than to blame Islam or innocent folks of faith for any crime. We are a better people than to heed the rightists’ ignorant, un-American calls for our values to change in the wake of tragedy.
.
Thanks so much for writing this, Amy Sullivan.
.
God bless you.

The answer is no, no it didn’t. It might have given him mental and emotional cover in his own mind for what he did, but his religion wasn’t why he did this. Let’s review:
-
Q: When did he snap?
A: When he found out he was deploying.
-
Q: Where did he snap?
A: At the pre-deployment center.
-
Huh. Wonder if those two facts might be a clue.

Most crazed killers have God egging them on.

Thanks, Amy, for bringing some sanity here. Where in the Qur’an is our culture specifically targeted as evil? Chapter and verse, please. No false God stuff? Christians and Muslims (and Jews) share the same God. There have been genuine religious-based wars through history, such as the Crusades and the start of the Thirty Years War …even though Christianity and Islam openly teach peace and brotherhood, so why the fighting, but I digress. Also, Amy, you’ve covered Muslim communities back home in MI in previous stories. Have you spoken to leaders / “real folks” back there today? (or will soon?) thanks

Come to think of it, most people, including the ‘evil’ ones, have a set of religious beliefs.
What was the religion of that Oklahoma bomber? And all those serial murderers in USA?
Does Cheney go to church? Is that relevant?

And Hitler was a christian, so we are told.
Is religion relevant? You betcha ..

The issue, of course, sz, is dealing with the threat emanating from the Muslim community, both within and without the US, and remembering that America is a place of freedom.
.
The really really hard question–if this guy was posting stuff on the internet praising suicide bombers etc., what is the response of a free people to an Army officer doing this? That is a hard hard question. And quite frankly, I don’t know the answer.

Sad but true.

What about the honor killing in Arizona? Was the dad’s religion relevant there?

Speaking of jumping to conclusions–the Obama Administration sure did when it came to Honduras.
.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/017/167cweqc.asp

” .. Is religion relevant? You betcha ..”

In what sense?

If you’re going to start cherry-picking killings in the United States, you have a very busy day ahead of you, spob.

cfukara, in Albert Speer’s autobiography (Inside the Third Reich), he mentioned Hitler’s admiration of Islam …mainly for its ancient military history, such as the Battle of Tours. “Spreading faith by the sword” was the phrase used.

“The issue, of course, sz, is dealing with the threat emanating from the Muslim community, both within and without the US,”
.
Would someone define “Muslim community” for me please.
.
There are over a billion Muslims.

However, one has to be blind to assume that there is no danger emanating from the Muslim community
.
It’s very nice that spob tries to distance himself from the bigots within his midst and I actually sympathize with the plight of those who are tarred when ‘teabaggers’ and ‘Republicans’ get used interchangably. But there is a faction within this country of people whose fascination with the “Muslim threat” borders on obsession. One need only read Pam Geller or the folks at MyPetJawa (or for that matter, read Rusty on a bad day) to get a feel for the amount of hatred AND self-reinforcment that the far right engages in.
.
You may pretend to be reasonable but you and the Hate-R-Us crowd vote as a bloc and I’m patiently awaiting the day when enough self-identified Conservatives are embarassed enough to bring an end to their collusion with unabashed bigots.

There is no “the threat emanating from the Muslim community“, there is a threat emanating from organized groups of radicalized, politicized fundamentalists who have accepted the use of terror.
.
There is a threat emanating from terrorists.
.
These terrorists –that’s what they are, no more, no less– bear no relationship whatsoever to “the Muslim community” or to random individual psychotics and murderers, and to make that slanderous charge against an entire people of faith is un-American.

“Despite the fact that solid information about yesterday’s mass shooting at Fort Hood are just starting to trickle in”…will in no way deter those of us in the media who have air time to fill, deadlines to meet or neilson points to gain, from making wild speculations based on rumor and innuendo.
Case in point: “heck, it was only 12 hours or so ago that we learned that the shooter wasn’t actually dead”…after reporting for hours yesterday that he was like it was actual fact.

Can you ever stick to the topic of the piece? Ever?

It’s morally disgusting and, to the extent it confuses the uninformed, takes our eye off the real threat, and what we actually need to do to keep our country safe.

Well, PD, nice little ad hominem. How ’bout this? When John Kerry stated that allies who provided troops to the war effort in Iraq were “window dressing”, was that patriotic? And when are you going to distance yourself from a party that counts him in good standing?
.
Or now that you people have gone off the deep end about “jumping to conclusions”, when are you going to draw the obvious conclusion from Obama jumping to conclusions about white police officer Crowley?

…thanks, stuart for praising Amy (you can guess I often do) and for driving this discussion further and getting folks to comment (I try but usually fail).

Amy!
What nonsense is this?
In general, conservatives have held up the shooting as a “we told you so” moment and lectured liberals about the dangers of trusting Muslims.
~
Excuse me? Conservatives, in general? As in, more often than not? You, Amy, are full of sh*t!
~~~
I am conservative. Here is my hypothesis. Sgt. Hasan’s constant exposure to soldiers returning from war with PTSS has weighed on his views of the war and its peripheral effects. He either snapped, or, he martyred himself for a cause. By carrying out such an unavoidably publicized atrocity, he will certainly raise awareness across the country, throughout our government, and within the military about the effects of war on our soldiers. Perhaps he believed that this one action (which would result in deaths) was worth the possible reaction: that being a reversal of oppressive military policies that are damaging the psyche of our soldiers. Could this have been an unusual, misguided, and abhorrent anti-war statement?

Lighten up, Francis. If you want to get into debates about f’in nomenclature, fine. The bottom line is that we have enemies and a lot of them are Muslim. That doesn’t mean that ALL of our enemies are Muslim or even that all Muslims are our enemies. But dancing around nomenclature cannot obscure reality.

deconstructiva:
.
Credit where credit is due for the attempt, plus she actually provided examples of her generalizations in the form of links, (one of which is to the sick, amoral Maglalang, of course)

Amy-You seem torned. Here is what I would do. Don’t hold entire races of people or an entire religion responsible for the acts of a few or of an individual. Once you start doing that you are bound to find yourself in sterotypes. There was a army gunman in Iraq that turned on his colleagues. There was young lady working in Iraq for Halliburton that was raped by her colleagues. There are female soliders raped by other soldiers. We have had several childredn kidnapped and killed in this country in the last few weeks.

One of the subthemes of Amy’s piece is about the folly of jumping to general conclusions. I’m simply pointing out that “conservatives” (read Michelle Malkin) are simply following the Messiah’s lead.

Don’t repeat foul political slander like “threats emanating from the Muslim community” after a national tragedy, and you won’t be condemned for being un-American.

Since it has been determined as fact that the gunman is alive, why don’t we wait for Hasan to be interviewed by the police. Instead of all this speculation we might actually learn why Hasan did it, from Hasan himself. Imagine that!

A person reads this….
.

“America is all about judging our fellow citizens on the basis of each individual’s merits.”

.
And, then you read this…
.

“I actually sympathize with the plight of those who are tarred when ‘teabaggers’ and ‘Republicans’ get used interchangably. But there is a faction within this country of people whose fascination with the “Muslim threat” borders on obsession. One need only read Pam Geller or the folks at MyPetJawa (or for that matter, read Rusty on a bad day) to get a feel for the amount of hatred AND self-reinforcment that the far right engages in.”

.
One really does not need to write anything more. It simply speaks for itself.

and just because this may be a case of a shooter motivated by a warped interpretation of his Muslim faith does not mean that it’s okay to cry “Muslim” every time an act of terror takes place. .. ”

But it would be true more often than not if we cry “christian” every time an act of terror takes place in USA.

[I know, you'd rather not think of the terrorist KKK and the Aryan Nation creeps who have killed, and kill, Americans; and who, like the Al Queda that trained in the deserts of Afghanistan, continue to train on the plains of the USA... ]

And Gosh! let us not remember that most of those Americans and Europeans accused of torture, rape, murder and mutilation – crimes against humanity – in Palestine, the Middle East and Vietnam carry on their persons a small copy of the bible or torah ….

Rustydog:

So you agree with me.
.
That’s excellent; you must have a conscience.

SZ, chill with the PC nonsense. I am not about to be intimidated from playing Philip of Macedon and calling a spade a spade.

…exiled, what type of conservative are you? (seriously, not an insult) A sane one, no doubt, and not likely a Malkin / Bachmann type, but there’s been recent talk about different strains of conservatism – I added some two cents but stuart added more, among others. Malkin did write the piece that provoked Amy and no one would call MM a flaming liberal.

Fair enough. I was merely pointing out that there are many more reasonable assumptions out there by conservatives. We’re not all screaming “terrorist” and “Muslim.” Not by a long shot.

Allow me to repost from two threads below:
.
I’m all for making Abu Ghraib a never ending series, much like Friday thr 13th. I have no pity for the murderous muslim bastards. I’m a conservative, your a liberal. These murderers would happily kill us both. What part of that don’t you understand?
.
The writer has said on other occasions that his son is deployed in Afghanistan. It would seem that the same people who are expected to fight alongside the Afghan army against the Taliban might have some difficulty, if they like this person, believe that simply being Muslim qualifies you as the enemy.
.
It’s a distressingly common sentiment and it’s adherents are almost Universally self-identified Republicans.

Well exiled, while I sympathize with you (I frequently get shot at here as if I were a militant dem) a very large chunk of conservatives DO believe what Amy said. Are they a majority of conservatives? I hope not. But here’s a small sample of recent bile.

. A whacko Muslim just went nuts and killed a bunch of soldiers, and I see that your beloved MSM is bending over backwards trying to portray him as the victim.Interesting paul.
-
I have no pity for the murderous muslim bastards. I’m a conservative, your a liberal. These murderers would happily kill us both. What part of that don’t you understand?
-
At the risk of sounding barbaric and unwashed to you and you’re elite liberal cronies, I say KILL ‘EM ALL! If not, bring our boy’s home. You’re a sick joke Joe, and I look forward to the day when you’re ramblings are no more. It’s a comin’!
-
While I realize that you distance yourself from the wackos, there are enough to give conservatism in general a bad name.

“America is all about judging our fellow citizens on the basis of each individual’s merits.”

Which is precisley why I think it’s important to differentiate between anti-Muslim bigots and Conservatives in general.

Your record speaks for itself.

Thank God for conservatives like you, neorationalist86.
.
If I’m going to oppose people because of their political philosophy, at least I’d like to assume they are capable of morality.
.
Good for you that you’d speak up for those conservatives who don’t literally endorse internment camps for Americans, unlike Malkin:

In Defense of Internment: The Case for Racial Profiling in World War II and the War on Terror (Hardcover)
.
Michelle Malkin

.
From the Publisher
.
Everything you’ve been taught about the World War II “internment camps” in America is wrong: – They were not created primarily because of racism or wartime hysteria
.
- They did not target only those of Japanese descent
.
- They were not Nazi-style death camps
.
In her latest investigative tour-de-force, New York Times best-selling author Michelle Malkin sets the historical record straight-and debunks radical ethnic alarmists who distort history to undermine common-sense, national security profiling. The need for this myth-shattering book is vital. President Bush’s opponents have attacked every homeland defense policy as tantamount to the “racist” and “unjustified” World War II internment. Bush’s own transportation secretary, Norm Mineta, continues to milk his childhood experience at a relocation camp as an excuse to ban profiling at airports. Misguided guilt about the past continues to hamper our ability to prevent future terrorist attacks. In Defense of Internment shows that the detention of enemy aliens, and the mass evacuation and relocation of ethnic Japanese from the West Coast were not the result of irrational hatred or conspiratorial bigotry. This document-packed book highlights the vast amount of intelligence, including top-secret “MAGIC” messages, which revealed the Japanese espionage threat on the West Coast. Malkin also tells the truth about:
.
- who resided in enemy alien internment camps (nearly half were of European ancestry)
.
- what the West Coast relocation centers were really like (tens of thousands of ethnic Japanese were allowed to leave; hundreds voluntarily chose to move in)
.
- why the $1.65 billion federal reparations law for Japanese internees and evacuees was a bipartisan disaster
.
- and how both Japanese American and Arab/Muslim American leaders have united to undermine America’s safety.
.
With trademark fearlessness, Malkin adds desperately needed perspective to the ongoing debate about the balance between civil liberties and national security. In Defense of Internment will outrage, enlighten, and radically change the way you view the past-and the present.

The only question for conservatives is:
.
“Do you denounce and reject Michelle Malkin?”
.
, and today you’ve proven yourself worth of the honor of being American, neorationalist86.

AS: “In general, conservatives have held up the shooting as a ‘we told you so’ moment and lectured liberals about the dangers of trusting Muslims, especially in the armed forces.”

Well, actually, some morlock-conservatives here have said…

“Unfortunately folks like Joe Klein being in the far left extremist camp are now scared that one of their own has revolted, and caused harm to his fellow soldiers.”

“It is clear now in hindsight, this was a premeditated act. An act that has been enabled by the liberal wing of our country.”

“Our liberal friends on this site should take a long hard look at what their words have done. They should look closely at what their words, ideals and goals stand for. Liberals have stood up recently against this country. Professed how “evil a country” we are. The liberal extremists feel empowered by their President Barack HUSSEIN Obama, who has made many incendiary speeches for the past 3 years he was thrust into the public limelight. It is clear that they have unleashed liberal demons among us now.”

“Hassan shared the views of Joe Klein and the leftist fringe that the war in Iraq is an ‘unnecessary war.’”

“But more to the point the Muslim extremists have the same hate for America and its traditional values that the left does as one can hear in nearly every Obama speech.”

This is a little over the top, but he does raise an interesting point about the Army chain of command:
.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/fort_hood_xjP9yGrJN7gl7zdsJ31vnJ#ixzz0W6qNBJmR

You’re not calling anything an anything, you’re telling a lie that is a lie.
.
It’s not political correctness that condemns you, it’s the biblical commandment:

16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
.
~Exodus 20:16

The “immediate assumption” of Muslim perp runs deep in the RW community, like LGF on the day of the Virginia Tech Shootings speculating on SJS (==Sudden Jihad Syndrome)…
.
Thoughts and prayers…

Ohiolib~
I beg your pardon, but I hardly see three blog comments made under the guise of online anonymity as emblematic of conservatism. I could easily find three public comments rejecting the views that you quoted. Are there wing-nuts within the conservative movement? You bet. Just as there are within progressivism: Code Pink, Sierra Club, Earth Liberation Front, etc. The existence of wing-nuts is ubiquitous. However, it speaks not to the ideology to which these individual pervert.

When Neo is right Neo is right. Agree with all of it.

When John Kerry stated that allies who provided troops to the war effort in Iraq were “window dressing”, was that patriotic?
.
Are you mentally retarded, Spob? Were Kerry’s remarks unpatriotic? To who? Poland? The Netherlands? What a stupid, stupid question.
.
Anyone with an IQ of over 75 should grasp that if Kerry was saying that other countries were not carrying their fair share, it means that the U.S. was carrying too much of the burden. It was costing the U.S. more than our fair share. We were suffering more than our fair share of dead and wounded. Our troops were being rotated back into combat more often, for longer, and with less time off than if other countries were contributing more.
.
I read a lot of dumb, dumb comments by wingnuts. Most of them are based upon faulty, made-up facts. But this might be the stupidest of all for taking a true quote that clearly, plainly, and simply was made in an effort to stick up for U.S. interests and twists it into being “unpatriotic.” Even if you disagree with what Kerry was saying, I can’t even grasp the twisted logic that would go into questioning Kerry’s patriotism based on the statement.

I would suggest that self-described “conservatives” who do not appreciate being lumped in with the tea-baggers should probably be a little more vocal in expressing how they differ and a little less vocal about the unfairness of being tarred with the Malkin brush.

While you are completely right, exiled, that wasn’t my point. My point was how Amy tarred most conservatives with the lunatic brush. I was saying that is was an easy, if false, generalization. I’m not defending it, only providing examples of why it may have been made. And I sincerely hope that Malkin isn’t in line with “most conservatives” yet. If so the R party has degenerated further than I though.

Spob: I am making an effort to follow you. Your references to the Ny Post and the Weekly Standard, among others, tells me where you seek your affirmation. But, go on, because in the end, we all seem to be looking for things that confirm our preferences.

Yes, and to quote a more famous liberal and mentor of Barack HUSSEIN Obama.
.

“God Damn America!!!!”, Rev Jeremiah Wright</blockquote
.
How does that make you feel, jcapan?

Stuart, PNNTO-
Thank you.
~
Ohiolib-
Ok, I see your point. No worries.

About an hour after learning about the Fort Hood attack I was driving home. On the radio was a rather prominent afternoon talk show whose host I have almost never agreed with. The entire show was dominated by the incident at Fort Hood and his strident belief that the man’s Muslim faith should have been enough for everyone in the Army to believe that he was a danger. Why? Are we now saying that all Muslims are suspicious? Have we become THAT country? Are we going to become the country that limits the people who can join the military to those homegrown people who can prove that they aren’t a terrorist? Are we that scared? While it may be proven (AND it is STILL needs to be proven, let’s not jump at the little tidbits coming out here and there to fuel our truths) that this sad man used his religion to fuel the lunacy that drove him to this act, let’s not become a country that jumps at shadows and points fingers at anyone that we suspect might Muslim and therefore must be a terrorist. America is the land of the proud and the free, let’s not become the scared and paranoia-driven as well. Because shortly along that road of thought lies the country that will be limiting immigration to those that we believe are better than others. Will we become THAT country?

Well done, Amy! Well done!

It must be a very sad life you lead, cfukara. To not know the beauty and wonder that is in rural America. The great plains of the mid-west. Or, the Rocky Mountains of Idaho and Colorado.
.
Does it ever get boring in the inner city slums?

“there is a threat emanating from organized groups of radicalized, politicized fundamentalists who have accepted the use of terror.”

.
Now spob, you are really going to pi$$ off our liberal trolls if you keep that up!!
.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Exiled who was formerly Neo, is about as “conservative” as a box of rocks. Libertarian perhaps, but his social and economic values are even more liberal than stuarts.
.
But, thank you none-the-less neo for taking up for us conservatives. I’ll have Sarah send you a signed copy of her new book

The truth actually lies somewhere between these two statements:

“…if he did yell “Allahu Akbar” as he began his killing spree–it would be folly to assume Hasan has nothing in common with the small but determined group of radical Muslims who seek to destroy the West.”
.
“Americans are better than to blame people of another faith for the crimes of psychotics and fanatics. America is all about judging our fellow citizens on the basis of each individual’s merits.
.
If a serious relationship can be found between Hasan and other violent jihadists – just yelling jihadist rhetoric doesn’t do it – then judgments can be made about wider conspiracies and co-conspirators.
.
Timothy McVeigh and the mostly Saudi 9-11 conspirators were far more than just “fanatics” because they were a part of something far more heinous and dangerous than mere individual psychopathology. Misanthropes are a dime a dozen, cold-blooded murderers something more rare and threatening but violent (or seditious) mass movements are something else entirely.

His name is Muslim. Many Muslims hate American policies in the Middle East. Even though Islam is not a religion of war per se, it has been co-opted by the extreme wing of the Muslim religious right and used to justify murder and other heinous acts, and so we all have reason to do a double take at his name.

Does his name matter?? YES YES YES. An irrebuttable presumption is NOT created, but it is certainly something worth reviewing as the facts of the massacre unfold. Our history with the Muslim world is at best, chilly, and at worst plain old hostile!

In my opinion though, this fellow was also under a lot of pressure.
Deployment to a war zone is hard enough on anyone, let alone on some Psychiatrist who knew first hand the devastation caused to returnees.
Could that have made him go on a killing rampage? Absolutely.

But we need to get all the facts before the rush to judgment. A rush to judgment could obscure the truth or cause skepticism when his true motives are uncovered.
Let us not create an OJ Simpson like situation when the rush to judgment eventually caused confusion in the jury, and subsequently resulted in the acquittal and release of OJ, despite the overwhelming physical evidence that pointed to him as the likely perpetrator of those murders.

While I know this story is great fodder for the media, this man was a human being and for all we know he might have been terribly mentally ill.
I think we should all avoid coming to any conclusions and keep examining the facts until the whole picture becomes clear.

LM

http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/criminals-use-technology-to-trackrape-and-kill-innocent-people/

Lest we forget.

Late night cries of “Allahu Akbar!” and “Death to the Dictator!”
Topics: Iran
.
“Opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi borrowed the tactic from the 1979 Islamic Revolution led by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, who asked Iranians to show unity against the U.S.-backed shah by shouting “Allahu Akbar” from their roofs.” – AP
The AP reports Tehran residents are climbing to their roofs and crying “God is Great!” in open defiance of Iran’s supreme leader. Given this is happening in spite of Khomeini’s warning of a crackdown, is a revolution for democracy in Iran too much to hope for?
.
http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2009/06/late_night_crie.php
.
On the Rachel Maddow show last night, NBC Foreign Correspondent Richard Engel reporterd that the government in Iran has actually banned the chanting of the phrase “Allahu Akbar!”
.
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/iran_banned_chanting_allahu_akbar/
.

“Many Muslims hate American policies in the Middle East.”
.
Here’s a newsflash for you: so do many Christians, Jews and atheists. The hazards of correlation are many.

Here’s Jamal Daljani’s take (twitter)

SEVEN messages and counting on my voice mail from different Bay Area reporters, all wanting to know the Muslim community’s reaction about the recent heinous killings of Nidal Malik Hasan. All wanting to know what had driven a 39-year-old Muslim to go on a killing rampage, murdering 13 people in Fort Hood, Texas. “He had it all,” someone said, “he’s an educated man, he’s a doctor.” Why did he do it?
.
Apparently, I fit the profile of someone who has these answers: I am a Muslim Palestinian American: I must know what one out of the 1.5 billion Muslims around the globe is thinking at any given time.
.
“Hey, Jamal…sorry to disturb you so early. But you know the Hasan story is big, and I was wondering if you’re willing to come for an interview and talk about how it feels being a Maahzlem (Muslim) and all,” a television producer says to me on my cell, while I was driving to work.
.
“How did you feel being a Christian, with Timothy McVeigh and Adolf Hitler being Christians?” I fired back.
.
Silence… I probably should not have said that, but there it is.
.
I’m sick and tired of these kinds of questions from media outlets whenever some kooky Muslim decides to commit a random act of violence…or in this case when a GI psychiatrist goes psycho. At the same time, I’m also sick and tired of self-appointed Muslim experts and spokespersons who jump at every miserable opportunity like this one to try to explain Islam.
.
“Islam is a religion of peace,” they say.
.
No, it’s not. Not anymore than Christianity is a religion of love. They’re just religions, and what you do with them is all up to the believer. More people have died in the name of religion than in any other catastrophe or plague.
.
Here is what I know about Hasan:
.
He was a disgruntled GI who wanted to leave the military for whatever reason: his conscience, his religion, or for personal reasons. He could have left peacefully. He could have quit and paid the price without hurting others, just like Muhammad Ali, who refused the draft to serve in Vietnam but did not feel the need to go on a killing rampage. Instead, he was stripped of his heavyweight title and served time in jail.
.
Hasan is a coward…not only for committing this heinous act, but for counting on being killed or taking the gun on himself, leaving behind his family and the entire Muslim community to account for his despicable actions.

Amy,

You must not be familiar with Islam or you would not describe him as “radical”. The Koran is clear on how infidels are to be treated. He was following Islam to the T. You and the rest of you liberals will not farewell under dhimmitude. I can see it now.

I sat in my car this afternoon near Orlando, Florida, listening to the play by play radio action as a person fired TWO YEARS AGO by a company entered the building he’d formerly worked in and shot 6 people, killing one. His name was Jason Rodriguez and he apparently snapped, after a span of two years, because he felt his former company had “left him to rot.” The point being, that while people may use a huge number of irrational excuses for their motivation in committing or attempting to commit mass murder, I would truly hate to be profiled by anyone because my company fired me in February or because my last name was Hispanic in Florida.

I don’t disagree with terrorist watch lists, with reasonable measures taken to protect me (I do live fifteen minutes from Kennedy Space Center, one of the most high profile targets in the United States, and I quite clearly recall a strip of Highway A1A being rerouted to protect Patrick AFB for literally years following 9/11, so I do understand the phrase “reasonable precautionary measures”) but it’s folly to assume that nutjobs of any stripe will be completely controlled by profiling.

No one has ever said it better than Benjamin Franklin. “They who can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” I prefer to live in a society that believes those who live in it deserve both freedom of religion and the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness without persecution for those religious beliefs until proven guilty of at least plotting some crime against that society. Those being some of the most basic of conservative principles.

Thanks for sharing, Stuart. Excellent.
.
The one thing I would add, by way of trying to understand Hasan, it wasn’t Muhammad Ali’s job to spend all day, every day, hearing what what was happening to, and by, our soldiers on a regular basis in Iraq. You know, the stuff that you need to talk with someone about after it’s over so you can function as a person. Unlike the rest of us, the media filter couldn’t help him ignore what was happening, in his name.

One of the truly amusing themes being advanced to excuse Hasan’s culpability is that he was persecuted for being Muslim or for his ethnic background. Some in the Left have found this abuse-excuse to be convenient and his cousin is relentlessly pushing the theme in the MSM.

However anyone who has served (I have) has to be amused. The military — which may be the most egalitarian of American employers — has long been total death on ethnic comments and discrimination. Furthermore, Hasan was a Major, i.e. a commissioned FIELD GRADE OFFICER. In other words, all enlisted men and all company grade officers who would offer any kind of offense would do so only at extreme peril to their disciplinary record. So I guess the only theory left is that the Colonels and Generals were talking smack about the poor guy!

stu I posted this in Joe’s thread below.
.
Joe-There has been another shooting in FL. This guy’s name is Jason Rodriguez. With a name like that, I think he may be a christian terrorist. Or maybe even an illegal alien christian terrorist. Please check with the catholic church and any other christian denominations you can contact in this country and ask them to condem this latest shooting. I think this is the least we can ask those folks to do since we seem to have required all Americans whom happen to be muslin in this country to condemn the killings at Ft. Hood yesterday. And I’m not laughing.
.
I posted it because its abursed.

Dr. Rusty-
.
No, sir. You are Republican, with nary an iota of conservatism in your philosophy. I adhere to strong conservative social principles, as well as free market enterprise, although not unbridled. However, I also endorse the Social Justice Theory which is not in any manner contrary to conservative principles. Conservatism does endorse the notions of compassion and morality, yes? Does not helping those in need constitute a moral imperative?
.
William Buckley, the father of modern conservatism, was opposed to the war in Iraq. My hesitancy to endorse endless, seemingly ineffective, conflict makes me unconservative? I’m really quite confused.
.
Does conservatism require feckless fidelity to a major human rights abuser, namely Israel?
.
I think you adhere to perverted notions of conservatism not intentionally, per se, but because of factional loyalties to a party that proclaims conservative values while treading on them in an egregious manner. You are confusing the platform rhetoric with substance, of which the Republican Party often contradicts itself.
.
I loathe the platform of the Democratic Party and I despise the posturing of the GOP. Does this make me unconservative?
.
Chuck Hagel, Paul Findley, Richard Lugar, these are the men of the GOP whom you should admire, instead of corporate lackeys falsely preaching populist propaganda.
.
Perhaps I have missed an important point. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to my conservative failings.
.
Cheers!

It would have been nice if Amy pointed out what liberals in general are saying about this tragedy. How in general liberals are using this opportunity to politicize the current wars. It is despicable especially considering the traitor has never deployed. I am a conservative and have served in the military. I have Muslim friends who have served with honor and would never betray their brothers and sisters in the military. Many have deployed numerous times to Afghanistan and Iraq. I have yet to serve with some one who harassed them because of their religion. Most of the servicemen I have served with are conservative. I guess the “in general” term Amy uses only applies to conservatives that she knows? Quite honestly I am concerned with honoring and mourning those who were killed or injured in this murderous act. The media should be honoring them too instead of focusing on the killer! The traitor is NOT the victim.

I’ve just been amazed all day long, listening to these liberals coddle this cowardly bastard. Oh, the stress of his job, worry about being deployed, blah blah blah… He was seen on video surveillance wearing traditional muslim garb, which as far as I’m concerned is not such a big deal, but I can’t help but think what would have happened if he had been seen wearing a white collar and holding a Bible. I suspect the libs would be drooling all over their keyboards. It boggles the mind the way these leftys prop these muslims up, all the while degrading anything that remotely resembles Christianity

the point is that you can’t ignore the fact that a lot of the western targets of terrorism worldwide have come from the Muslim community, ignore what your understanding of the Muslim religion is, or from your own personal Muslim beliefs, the Muslim terrorists that carry out these atrocities believe that they are doing what the Qur’an instructs them to do, and that they are following in the footsteps of the Fabled Prophet Mohammed by cleansing the land of the Infidels.

To throw out the fact that they ARE Muslim, extremists or not, and say they are just “terrorists evil-doers” is turning a blind eye to a real and plausible threat. To ignore a group of dangerous individuals just because its not PC to do so is outlandish. All Muslim people are obviously NOT terrorists, otherwise America would be in a “Mad Max” type condition, with every symbol of civilization destroyed and “White infidels slaughtered or in hiding” and its not. But there is a population of Muslim people who see the US as a target of jihad that DO feel that way, and i have no problem scrutinizing people belonging to a group that has members, of a small sect or not, who have and will do harm to American citizens.

As an uncommitted religious person (i believe in a higher power, but i don’t think any of the religions have really grasped an understanding of it) I wouldn’t care if the religions these terrorists belong were Judaism or Christianity or Mormonism or believed in shoe gods. If a large enough population were using their religious beliefs to justify attacking Americans my reaction would be the same. Extra scrutiny and devil-may-care attitude to the PC police isn’t a Nazi work camp, it isn’t a holocaust revisit, and it isn’t that big of a deal.

If Muslim-Americans are so upset that they get an extra background check to better ensure the safety of other Americans, then they don’t need to be in America. Call me a racist if you feel the need to hide behind name calling and are afraid to face the facts of the world. This isn’t a Utopian society and there are many evils out there. To ignore them for the sole purpose of being “Politically Correct” is national suicide and a gross neglect of political and American responsibility.

p.s. The only thing i have to say about Nobama:

Daniel 8:23-25
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

And through his policy also he shall cause craft (fraid, deceit, treachery)to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.”

It amazes me that the leftists who have their heads in the sand about Islamic terror bring up the fact that Timothy McVeigh was a Christian or what America did thirty years ago in Vietnam.

Here are some facts: Since our horrible 911 Islamic terrorists have murdered thousands of innocent, men, women and children on busses, trains, supermarkets, restaurants, synagogues and churches, and office buildings in more than twenty countries worldwide of which half of them are Moslem countries. This is not the fault of Israel or America which obviously upsets you Blame America First folks.

There ARE people who have an eight century view of Islam and believe in murdering innocent people. There is no comparison to any other conflict or religion in the world today. Christians and Jews are not targeting innocent men, women, and children around the world. Please spare the liberal pablum about what America has done in Iraq. America ended the famine in Moslem Somalia, ended the genocide by the Serbs against Moslems in Kosovo, kicked the invading Iraqi’s out of Moslem Kuwait, and freed fifty million Moslems from oppressive, brutal dictatorships in Iraq and Afghanistan. We should never have gone to war with Iraq but the rest of the world was more interested in Saddam’s oil and his money from oil and cared little about his torture and murders of his own people.

Right before Daniel Pearl, the American journalist, was beheaded in Pakistan his murderers made him say “I am an American and I am a Jew.” Not one Moslem group in America condemned this horrific act nor do they condemn the slaughter of innocents in attacks against Israel by suicide bombers nor do they condemn the Moslem against Moslem attrocities being committed in Iraq. Christians and Jews don’t behave this way.

neorationalist86:
,
Quick question:
.
When you say “The Social Justice Theory” (there are more than one), do you mean this link or some other?

Ms Sullivan,

Are you out of your tree? How many German-Americans went to war to defeat Nazism? How many Japanese-Americans fought to defeat Japan? In the last twenty-four hours I heard enough about MAJ. Hasan getting a poor performance (efficacy) report and comments by his former commander to my hair stand straight up! As a former “Army Brat”, I understand how those factors should be red flags. It is obvious to me that MAJ. Hasan needed to see a psychiatrist himself!

It’s hard to know where the trollery ends and the cretinism begins…

Something we are afraid to look at is perhaps that at the core of Islam -in it’s “seed – is the teaching in jihad you won’t be judged by your good or bad work – left solely up to the discretion of “Allah”, but are guaranteed a place in heaven with many virgins. That is if Muhammad is His Prophet. In jihad, the taking of infidels (i.e., “humans”, whether foreign OR family) is required. Thus saith “Allah”.

It is more blessed.to take than to receive.

Truly, can Islam be mixed -find co-existence -with any other teachings but that of it’s own?

Can true, real Islam tolerate “sin”?

“the immediate assumption on the morning of 9/11 that the terrorists were Muslim turned out to be correct”

Did it?

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/the-rest-is-silence/

The very same…

What about your right wing freinds who have out-killed Al Queda on American soil?
.
Is that a “conservative ideal” too?
.
Or are you going to try to engage in doubletalk to try to avoid the fact that of all the terrorists (and the Ft Hood shooter may not be!), your peers are leading the body count so far!

I will say this, Exiled:
.
However you slice it, right wing terrorists, when added to Rusty et al’s a la carte buffet of hatred and hatemongers, gives conservatives a bad name.
.
When I bring it up, it is to blunt any of their exclusive claim to patriotism or even, being on the right side of the terrorism issue.
.
I do not for one second doubt that the likes of Rusty and others secretly cheered Timothy McVeigh, as have many who have participated in their blogs, shows, websites, talk shows and tv shows.
.
I think that what point is missed here is that organizations like ELF have no mainstream life, nor do they have any mainstream support from any “leftie”, indluding Olbermann.
.
This is completely at odds with the long, long, long history the right wing shares with acts of terrorism.
.
If you don’t like the association, then perhaps it would be wise to start cleaning your house.
.
After all, Exiled, you cannot make any case whatsoever for advocacy for terrorism or violence in the Democratic party.
.
This is from a guy who has watched both for 35 years…

Has anyone pointed out to you Rusty that you guys collectively called yourself “teabaggers”?
.
Just thought I’d point that out…

Rusty:
.
Have you ever given consideration that “rural America” is paid for by the likes of us urban animals?
.
I really think we should end income redistribution.
.
Do you know what would happen?
.
You would starve in punery…

You mean we shouldn’t bring up Timothy McVeigh?
.
Why not?
.
He was the worst domestic terrorist this country has seen in modern times.
.
And, on top of that, he’s right wing.
.
Like you…

And, you right wing idiots, a final parting shot:
.
Just what did your Imam, Steven Anderson, say a few weeks ago?

“Spreading faith by the sword”

Indeed.
That was what the christians’ “crusades” were all about …. for centuries.
In Africa, North/South Americas and currently in Iraq/Afghanistan one sees christianity spreading – by the sword ..
It has been suggested that where the sword failed – the spread of christianity was stymied. …

Who would rather die impaled on a christian’s sword than that of a shintoist?

[Hands up: Who among you phony, innocent christianians would rather be maimed or killed violently by an American drone than by an Al Queda IED?]

It never ceases to amaze me how many people think they can see into the heads of people they don’t even know. There are 1.6 BILLION Muslims in the world. Should we be at war with them all? When our troops are operating in Afghanistan and Iraq, they are working with Muslim allies to defeat Muslim enemies. As I tried to make clear before, anybody who thinks that Islam itself is the enemy rather than the relative small number of people who actually DO participate in attacks on civilian targets, is in a lousy position to help with an insurgency in Afghanisan where the primary mission is to protect the Islamic population from the extremists in their midst.

” .. Rustydog: … That’s excellent; you must have a conscience. ..”

Who?
Rusty?

Great!
Sherp, that is spot on ….

Of course it is. And, I’m sorry to have to tell you this, but anyone who doesn’t realize this is dangeriously naive, especially if they have a platform.

Wise up … before it’s too late.

…hmm, so it takes trollery to drive these discussions forward?

…so much for asking polite questions.

The reportage and anchor handling of the news at Fox News was almost pathetically nonjudgmental as to the motivation or motivations of the killer, especially Shepherd Smith’s commentary, who carefully withheld the name of the shooter, though that had become known, out of some caution. Whatever his politics, and I’m not sure he’s at all conservative, I know of no conservative who automatically blames Muslims when any mass shooting or mass murder occurs. In the aftermath of the Oklahoma City bombing, you may recall, liberals blamed Rush Limbaugh and the like for inciting whoever the murderer or murderers were. Human beings are prone to jump to conclusions based on no evidence: their politics have zero to do with that tendency.

Ms. Sullivan writes that the “position of some conservatives seems to be that it’s acceptable to assume that the perpetrators of evil acts are Muslim.” “Seems to be,” a common liberal journalistic trope, tells this reader that what follows is not what is, but what some journalist imagines. Ms. Sullivan did not write that conservatives seem to drag their knuckles and foam at the mouth, so perhaps one ought to be easy on her. She followed her “seems to be” with equally fanciful “assume” and “assumption,” which also fail to rest on any fact or truth.

The rest of her secular sermon is equally misplaced. No one, certainly no conservative, is forcing “an entire religious population to live under a cloud of suspicion until proven otherwise.” Oops. Error. IF that forcing exists, and I see no evidence it does, people like Major Hasan are doing the forcing.

” …the relative small number of people who actually DO participate in attacks on civilian targets, ..”

Ahem.

Most of those killed by American/coalition forces in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan are civilians.
So if we wish consider the religion of ‘the relative small number of people’ who unleash terror and carry out “attacks on civilian targets” we should, in fairness, consider judaism, islam and christianity.

.

” .. in Afghanisan where the primary mission is to protect the Islamic population from the extremists in their midst. ..”

Who are we kidding?
Does that Islamic population really crave protection from us? Maybe not. And if they did, isn’t it puzzling why we, the mightiest military power on earth, continue to battle them, the cave-dwellers, years after we conquered them and effectively razed their structures?

We – the people, the Americans – are aware that there are among others, the KKK and Aryans Nation extremist, supremacist terrorists …

Our christian populations in USA need protection from these extremists in our midst.
Any suggestions …
[. you are not going to call in foreign non-christian invaders to torture, rape and kill then parade around their benevolent righteousness, are you?]

Deconstructiva~
I’m sorry, your benign question was lost amidst the exchange. What type of conservative am I? Interesting question, as there appears to be four main streams of conservatism: social, fiscal, foreign policy, and, less noted, political.
~
Socially speaking, I am an extreme absolutist. I am opposed to same-sex unions (although my Catholic Christian faith encourages tolerance and compassion of those whose actions I find immoral, I cannot, and ought not, to condone such); I am opposed to the overwhelming majority of so-called justifications for abortions; I find very little constitutional support for the recent judicial and legislative onslaughts on religion and the free exercise thereof, and this includes individuals within the government who have a constitutional right to express their beliefs and naturally base their governing on their religious convictions; I hold an extremely negative view of American culture (lackthereof?) and its decaying morality.
~
In terms of fiscal policy, I favor free-market capitalism and restrained government expenditure. However, I completely recognize the absolute need for regulation of industry to prevent monopolies, unfair business practices, and exploitation. I also reject the idea that corporations should have a voice in political debates, especially the ridiculous degree to which corporate dollars fund campaigns and issue groups that lobby Congress. While I favor restricted spending, I endorse social programs that are truly aimed at assisting those in need and not structured to perpetuate dependency. This applies to the government. As a society of civilians, however, we are obligated towards charity and community.
~
Foreign policy, perhaps my most centrist position. Although I was a bit of a hawk in my earlier days, I am increasingly leery of American armed involvement in international conflicts. I strike a balance between protection of national interests (including homeland security efforts) with a respect for the sovereignty of all states. I strongly believe the United States has squandered its benevolent image of post-WWII through its incessant failings in protecting the human rights of the oppressed across the globe: Rwanda, Sudan, Palestine, etc. Simultaneously, the US has consistently enabled many injustices: Israeli occupation, Bosnian war crimes, Saudi monarchy, etc US foreign policy is in shambles.
~
Finally, political conservatism, that is my philosophy on governance: constitutional originalism, small government, decentralizations, ect
~
While I tend towards libertarianism in the sense that I support the privacy of the populace over the claims of compelling state interests, such as my opposition to the Patriot Act or my support for the legalization of marijuana, I do think that morality supersedes unbridled liberty. There are instances where my desire to see less government must be capitulated to my moral absolutism in preventing the erosion of human dignity.

I live in a rural area. Farmland, horses, cows, fields, woods…the whole shebang. Do you have any idea how many of my “F**K BUSH” signs were vandalized by my neighbors? It’s hard to go a half mile out here without seeing a “Jesus Christ” sign nailed to a tree or a telephone pole. Do you know how hard it is to paint “Slow Down” or “I’m Drunk” underneath them without getting caught?

Apparently so Decon,
.
While I can grant SZ the “cretinism” it seems a stretch to call it Tom-trollery at this pt. Rightists waxing/progressives waning and all that. How can one be trolling when the general drift of the Swamp (including the posters’ pecadilloes) is so clearly right-ward.
.
There was a time, misting up a la Beck, when most of us were center-left and the likes of QH were all but ignored. No it’s a veritable brownshirt feeding frenzy.

So because Timothy McVeigh was a radical Christian who prayed before he st off the bomb in Oklahoma City, we should put every Christian under a security watch?

Because he was arrested wearing a T-shirt that said “The Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the Blood of Patriots and Tyrants,” we should put every Teabagger under security watch?

Or do you just worry about the religions of those Middle Eastern brown people?

Speaking of the Virginia Tech shootings, Nadal Malik Hasan graduated from Virginia Tech in 1997.

Should we now put all alumni of Virginia Tech under security watch?

“The position of some conservatives seems to be that it’s acceptable to assume that the perpetrators of evil acts are Muslim. If that assumption ends up being proven false, then oh well.”

If religion is the cause of human behavior then I guess the human sciences have finally “aped” the natural sciences and certainty has come. From now on I expect a 100% accuracy rate in all social science predictions, including economics.

False analogy has temporarily taken over the number one position, in the most heavily used logical fallacy category. Take Glen Beck, for example, he finds analogical connections in places most people would never think to look, especially those with some training in logic. This really shouldn’t surprise us, I suppose, because drawing a comparison between two things, doesn’t take a great deal of effort. I can say two things are the same as each other, simply because they both occupy time and space.

The political landscape is filled with false analogies right now. People connect things together, even if they only connect in the most tangential of ways, then they start deducing conclusions from the weak or false analogy, that are the axioms of their deductive reasoning.

I don’t agree that all conservatives do this. In fact there were some very impressive comments, made by conservatives, above. I don’t think all conservatives believe that if A commits a horrible crime and A is a member of a certain religion, that it necessarily follows that all members of that religion are murderers. Unfortunately, the saner voices of that movement seemed to be drowned out currently, a good thing no doubt, for liberals.

That’s like the time John McCain jumped to the conclusion on the Georgia-Russia conflict last August.

Actually, Timothy McVeigh was a self-avowed agnostic, if you care to actually investigate. The old, “Mcveigh was a Christian terrorist”, has been used by some for years to try and say, see Christians can be terrorists too, so they are really no different than Muslims. Let’s see, why doesn’t somebody who asserts that radical Christians are just as much a threat as radical Islam make a list of acts of terrorism committed in the name of Christianity over say the last twenty years. I’ll list some of the terror acts committed in the name of Islam: the first World Trade Centre bombing, the U.S.S. Cole, the Kenyan Embassy bombings, 9/11, Madrid, Bali, London, Fort Hood, etc. You can go back even further if you like, to Sirhan Sirhan gunning down Senator Robert Kennedy because of Bobby’s support of Israel, Mehmet Ali Agca assasination attempt on Pope John Paul the Second or the Iranian hostage crises. But if it makes you feel safer to stick your head in the sand or elsewhere and pretend we are all the same go ahead.

That’s right square1, it’s oh-so-patriotic to denigrate the contribution of allies in a shooting war.

A much better explanation of your “conservativism” neorationalist. Each time you post a comment like this I do get a better picture, and from my last comment was hoping that a more indepth self analysis would take place.
.
A John Stossel Libertarian would be a more apt description. But, since I also believe that people should be able to self-identify themselves, you can continue to call yourself a conservative. (just kidding).
.
I would much rather live next to you with your views, than I would with someone like IQ53. In IQ53′s case, he would simply come to my home, take whatever he needed without asking. Just like his beliefs in his Government’s right to do so without recourse.
.

And here’s a bon mot from our friends at CAIR:
.
“Unfortunately, based on past experience, we also urge American Muslims, and those who may be perceived to be Muslim, to take appropriate precautions to protect themselves, their families and their religious institutions from possible backlash.”
.
Jumping to conclusions?

Just for you IQ53. Enjoy!!
.

.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Weblogs/TWSFP/TWSFPView.asp#13923
.
A lot of people in here have criticized the attacks on Obama. Fine. But is there any excuse for the idiocy that is Gibbs?

If Muslims were smarter spob, they would be far more concerned about the attack on religion in general by the liberals.
.
Clearly the liberals are the ones the Muslims should fear the most. If Islam would ever take over the US as being the predominate religion in the US of A, then the majority of liberals would be out to shut down their mosques. Rip their head scarfs off their heads and pass stricter zoning laws to restrict the building of more mosques.
.
Muslims do have to fear some Americans. The ones who will restrict everything they hold as most valuable to them. If cfukura had her/his way, she would ban all religions on earth. Well maybe not the Wiccans, which I am sure she is a high priestess or head witch of that group.
.
I do not comdemn the Muslims for the actions of one Muslim who it is plain to see is just nuts. Most Psychiatrists I have worked with in the past, could be deemed crazier than most of their patients.
.
Nadal Malik Hasan acted in cold blooded murder. His religion did not force him to pull the trigger. He did that freely and without concious.
.
I fear the likes of Jeremiah Wright and his congregation of wackjobs more than I do any group of Muslims. He has gotten away with Anti-American sermons for the better part of 20 years, while Obama was sitting in the pew. Then you have the nit-wit, Rev Louis Farrakhan. He thinks Obama truly is the Messiah. When will that group let loose on the rest of us. I think it is just a matter of time.
.
But, as stuart said earlier in the thread. Individuals are to be held accountable, not any group. We make choices everyday. I am just waiting for the day the liberals tie themselves to a tree and throw gasoline all over themselves and set it on fire. Well I guess that won’t happen, they’d think it was contributing to global warming. Maybe we can talk them into just putting alot of explosives to their heads and chest, and simply blow their ass off the face of the earth.
.
Just saying…

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YjVmN2E4MjQwZTZkMDgyNTZiMTIxNzhjYzcxZTAxNzI=
.
Another interesting take. So, people, we’ve heard a lot about sedition–were his statements seditious?

…thanks, exiled. This definitely adds clarity to the different lines of conservative thought here and especially in our political stars (Palin compared to Gingrich, Huckabee to Romney, etc.). It’s not just personal attention. These leaders have slightly different values and the differences are now showing up (such as in NY-23).

Rusty–please find the entire Jeremiah Wright sermon clip (it’s been widely available on YouTube) and watch. You’ve shown in previous posts about HRC, for example, that you understand context. Watch the entire sermon so you understand where Rev. Wright is coming from.
.
And no, I’m not defending what he said. I’m suggesting we understand where he was coming from and exactly what he meant. That’s part of critiquing something. Using that one quote to paint him and, by association, President Obama, the Democratic Party, and all liberals as America-hating is flawed.

Of course the religion is relevant. But religion is also relevant when extremist Christians shoot gynecologists.

“Where in the Qur’an is our culture specifically targeted as evil? Chapter and verse, please. No false God stuff? Christians and Muslims (and Jews) share the same God.”

Just a gentle reminder that roughly half the world is not Christian, Muslim or Jewish. Is “our culture” exclusively Judeo-Christian-Islamic?

spob yesterday was all about reasonable precautions and not overreacting but then today he links approvingly to Mark Steyn whose entire MO revolves around hating Arabs.

The fact of the matter is that the danger isn’t confined to Islam though the Middle East apparently contains pockets where reason has difficulty reaching. The problem is that any religion that suggests that there are members and ‘others’ and goes on to think that the Creator of the Known Universe takes sides is prone to religious inspired violence. The entire History of Europe is replete with examples, among the most recent being the terrorism associated with Northern Ireland.

People who whip themselves up into religious hatred and use events such as these to spur themselves on are engaging in precisely the same behavior they are condemning.

We’re going to have a great deal of difficulty winning the Global War On Terror if we insist on identifying 1/3 of the planet as the targets.

I am a Muslim, a normal person (i think). What do i do after readings some of these comments? Do I kill myself, do i change my religion or do I just try to leave to anther plant. Even if we accept some wishes of some of you and we left your countries (whether US or Europe), would you leave us alone live in peace in our original countries. no you would still follow us in our country and kill us like and still our wealth as you did always in the far past, close past and today. i think we should divide the earth into halves, you stay in a half and we stay in a half and no interaction what so ever, would you accept that… no you would not, because you need us more than we need you. Wake up, it is all about politics. Nothing to do with religion.

I am a Muslim, a normal person (i think). What do i do after readings some of these comments? Do I kill myself, do i change my religion or do I just try to leave to anther plant. Even if we accept some wishes of some of you and we left your countries (whether US or Europe), would you leave us alone live in peace in our original countries. no you would still follow us in our country and kill us, steel our wealth as you did in the far past, close past and today. i think we should divide the earth into halves, you stay in a half and we stay in a half and no interaction what so ever, would you accept that… no you would not, because you need us more than we need you. Wake up, it is all about politics. Nothing to do with religion.

You mean commit acts of domestic terrorism? Yes. You are right. Religion is an issue.

Yes. And I have been clear that the murder of abortionists IS terrorism.

Yeah PD, Steyn is a bad guy, so we shouldn’t listen to him. Gimme a break. I honestly don’t know what the answer is. But an Army major praising suicide bombers (i.e., the enemy) is a problem.

Nice stereotyping, jerk.

sorry, this was supposed to be upthread

The stark difference destor, is the Christian community condemns the Killing of doctor death. I don’t hear any great condemnation of this guy coming from the muslim community. I do however hear a large part of the liberal community defending the murder of unborn fetuses.

“Clearly the liberals are the ones the Muslims should fear the most. If Islam would ever take over the US as being the predominate religion in the US of A, then the majority of liberals would be out to shut down their mosques. Rip their head scarfs off their heads and pass stricter zoning laws to restrict the building of more mosques.”
.
That’s why freedom of religion is a famous liberal principle right? Liberalism is the friend of all religions. It’s emphasis on freedom is what provides members of all religious faiths, the freedom to practice their beliefs in peace. The biggest enemy of religious orders are the fundamentalists and the extremists, of any sect. If they gain control of an entire nation, they are the ones who will wipe out the rights of other beliefs, not the liberals. Christians used to make pilgrimages to the Kabbah, as did about 40 other religions. The separation of church and state, another evil liberal conspiracy, is good for religion and politics.
.
Surely we can all agree that terrorists are not representative of any spiritual belief, and we ought to simply categorize them as criminals. I don’t see how the vast majorities, of the all faiths, who do not practice, or condone terrorist acts, could possibly be offended by that? It is in the interest of them and their faith that freedom reigns. The extremists only want to take that freedom away.
.
Thank god Liberalism protects the right of individuals to believe whatever they want to believe.

Thank you for proving a point I was attempting to make with IQ53 and Amy Sullivan.
.
Simply, you cannot paint every person who believes in conservativism as “evil and nasty” or associate them with the the far fringes of their respective party or affiliation. It is just plain stupid to do so.
.
I know that by posting IQ53′s favorite hero, that it really gets under his skin, and sets him back a few steps each and everytime. As evidenced by all his snide and rediculous rants he comes off with.
.
With that, I do agree that Jeremiah Wright is probably no better or worse, and in no way represents the feelings of the vast majority of Americans from both political spectrums. I do however hold Obama accountable for sitting in a pew for over 20 years with a man such as Jeremiah Wright preaching his hate. But, that was Obama’s choice. Mine would have been to get up and leave, immediately.
.
Respect is a very funny thing. In order to gain respect, one has to first show it and prove that he or she is respectful.
.
I frankly am a very tolerant person. I could give a rat’s ass what you do in your life, so long as you are not abusing children or animals and not attempting to thrust your own beliefs down my throat. Probably the biggest reason I am so against big government and most of the liberal policies. I think we should all be treated as individuals, and held accountable for our own actions. We should not as individuals sit and wait for everyone to bail us out, if we have not first tried to save our own butt first. In this great country of ours we can acheive anything we set our minds to do. We are afforded all of the opportunities, we simply just need to choose to take the steps in order to do it.
.
But, my evil twin sometimes cannot resist taunting people like IQ53.

Assume for a moment that I attend a Church service in my hometown and am told that God loves us and wants nothing more than for us to Love on another and treat others as we would be treated. I then attend a service in a different town and am told that God has prepared a fiery pit of eternal pain and has reserved it for anyone who doesn’t claim allegiance to a preacher who dies violently 2000 years ago.
.
Do we really think that these experiences would be teaching more about God than it would be about the particular Preachers and Congregations I’m attending?
.
We can talk all we want about ‘particular’ religions but the real question we need to address is where does intertribal hatred come from, how is it reflected in our thoughts about God and the Universe and what can we do to lessen violence and combat fear?
.
Whipping ourselves into a racist frenzy over a single act of violence perpetrated by a single individul is not only not the answer – it’s part of the problem.

So what are your feelings on what this guy did Al? Do you cendemn him or defend him? How are we supposed to react to your lack of outrage.?

alawalaw:
.
In my historical reviews both muslims and christians are guilty of invading and killing each other for their separate “causes”. Religion in the hands of some despotic rulers has been used as a way to seek out and hold more power over others. Wrong in my opinion.
.
While I may not agree with all of your religious beliefs, most in particular Sharia Law, and the abuse of women that some muslim’s believe is justified. You have the right to believe in whatever floats your boat, so long as you do not attempt to press your beliefs upon me if I tell you that I am not interested.
.
The cowardly acts of Nadal Malik Hasan are simply his acts and not of those from your Muslim Community. If the God of your people and mine wanted, he could strike either religion down with the blink of an eye. Apparently he allows us to have both. The same for our Jewish brothers and sisters.
.
Hasan will pay for his wrongs against his fellow soldiers, if not in this world, then surely in the next. God allows us to be individuals, and make our own choices. I am convinced of that. We choose, he will judge on how well we made those choices in life. I have known many Persians, Arabs and others of your religion, and the vast vast majority are kind and decent people. God fearing without a doubt. It has been in my experience that when they listen to other men, that is the time that they are delusioned. Not just in your religion, but all religions. I don’t know about you, but the interpretation of the bible, koran and torah were done by men. Brought to us by men. But, it is we who decide for ourselves as to how to determine which of the choices before us from these great books we will follow as our beliefs.
.
I for one respect you and your religion. I hope that you can also respect my religion and me. Once we can do this one simple thing, peace will reign all over the world.

Okay now they say he screamed “AllahuAkbar” before he started to shoot. This is all beginning to seem like contrived made for the news nonsense. I hope someone will shut this down until all the facts are known.
This might be news for some folks, and the dead just numbers to others, but in reality, real people who matter to others have been killed and even the killer himself, I am sure, has loved ones who want to know what went wrong with him.

Yes, the press has a job to do in terms to reporting fact but when the matter involves loss of human life, I think speculation and sensationalism should be seriouslyy minimized.

LM

http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/i-fully-support-gun-ownership/

Now, the neocons (and pro-Israel) are blaming the ‘liberals’! At first glance this seems laughable considering past Christian mass murderers and Jewish ones. But then this is information warfare; if you said it enough times, people will believe it. Like Nazi propaganda.

[...] Is Nadal Malik Hasan’s Religion Relevant? by Amy Sullivan [...]

Actually, Spob, Sgt Crowley did act “stupidly,” and there were other racial incidents in his official record. He exceeded his authority by responding to Gates’ over-reaction. The President’s mistake was taking the bait and responding to the question.

Derek-
Liberalism, in theory, seeks to protect the individuality of a society. True. However, in the US there has been an undeniable takeover of the liberal movement by extreme secularists. This is not simply agnostic secularism I am referring to, but agenda-driven secularism with the overt goal of removing religion from society. These are the individuals who fabricated the notion of ‘separation of church and state,’ despite the complete void of such reference in the Constitution. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” The United States cannot implement a state religion, as per the “no law respecting an establishment of religion,” however, what part of “shall make no law…prohibiting the free exercise thereof” confuses liberals who claim to support the free exercise of expression? How can this clause be reconciled with such initiatives as preventing students from praying in school, removing the Ten Commandments marker from a court house, infringing on individuals’ expression of their religion in public schools, removing “Christ” from “Christmas,” rejecting non-profit status for charitable religious movements, preventing politicians from referencing their religious convictions, etc? By allowing individuals, including students, politicians, and even judges to express their religious identity in no way violates Congress’ prohibiting from passing a law respecting an establishment of religion. The United States has not, does not, seek to establish a formal national religion, as England has. There is no merger of government and religious institutions. The President is not “caput ecclesiae amercanae,” the Head of the American Church. The Establishment Clause has been satisfied. Yet, many, although certainly not all or even a majority, of liberals wish to seek a furtherance of repression, in violation of the Constitution, by targeting the individuals within society and attacking religious institutions themselves. These venomous secular liberals wish to violate with extreme prejudice individuality to appease their own opposition to religion.
~
Liberalism in the US and Europe has become a camp for all the vehemently anti-religious, all the hard-line secularists, all those who would repress the right to express one’s religious faith because they find it silly or antiquated. These individuals, you cannot say, seek to protect individual rights. An EU court this week ruled that Italian schools (in a predominantly Catholic country with a rich history of Catholicism as cultural, not necessarily religious, identity) cannot display crucifixes in classrooms. This case stemmed from a Finish woman who immigrated to Italy and then took issue with its Catholic identity. The European Union ruled in her favor, essentially dictating that Italy cannot express its identity because to do so would infringe upon this secularist’s delicate sensitivity to any symbol of religion.

Paul-
Did you just cite violence stemming from Northern Ireland as an instance of religious inspired extremism? Very interesting. You haven’t perused the history of The Troubles much, have you? Irish militants are inspired by English occupation, not religious extremism. Yes, English troops that have occupied Northern Ireland are Protestant amidst a predominantly Irish-Catholic community. However, it is the arbitrary detentions, the lack of representation, the daily humiliations, the occupying presence of trigger-happy troops over the years that catalyzed Irish violence, and in certain cases terrorism, such as the cafe bombings in England. That conflict is entirely more nuanced that mere religious identity, Paul. I liken it to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, in that occupation inevitably radicalizes the occupied populace, regardless of religious differences. That the occupier and the occupied have their own distinct religious identities certainly plays a role in this antagonism, however, religion itself is not the root cause of either The Troubles of Northern Ireland or the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Violence is a symptom of occupation, Paul.

Alawalaw-
no you would still follow us in our country and kill us like and still our wealth as you did always in the far past, close past and today.
~
I, for one, absolutely respect and admire the Islamic faith and culture. I have spent time in Jordan, West Bank, and Lebanon and I was never ill-received, never uncomfortable. I was fascinated. I have no qualms with your religion or your presence in the United States. We could use an injection of Islamic fervency in our own dilapidated, lukewarm post-religious society.
~
However, I think you project an inadequate and incomplete understanding of history and your faith’s role in violence. Islam, “submission,” was it not conceived by Muhammad’s hijra to Medina, followed by his conquest of Mecca? In subsequent decades under the rule of the Rashidun, “rightly guided,” did Islam not spread by way of the sword? Under Umar, did the spoils of war not go to the Islamic empire? Was war not the means by which Islam was spread and enforced throught the Arabian Peninsula? Was the Jewish-Christian city of Jerusalem (whose religious significance greatly pre-dated the birth of Islam) not swallowed by the Isamic Empire in 638AD? Did Muslim expansion under the Umayyad dynasty not seek the violent submission of Europe, beginning with the conquest of Spain? The Battle of Tours (732AD), in which Charles Martel defeated the Umayyad armies, was the sole prevention from Islam conquering all of Europe. Did subsequent wars between the Abbasid Dynasty and Christian Crusaders not result in massacres by both contingencies?
~
Your portrayal suggests that Muslims have been the target of Christian conquests throughout history, yet the reality, alawaw, is that from the beginning Islam sought to expand its influence through war. It was Muslim armies who first initiated war with Christian Europe. The repercussions of that were centuries of back-and-forth war over the Holy Land. Violence endured on both sides.
.
While I respect Islam, alawaw, there is no denying its violent birth as it took its place among the great religions of the time. This you cannot deny.

[...] http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/11/06/is-nadal-malik-hasans-religion-relevant/ [...]