In the Arena

Perfect Pitch

Vice President Joe Biden had an absolutely perfect response to Dick Cheney’s utterly predictable and entirely wrong foreign policy speech this week:

Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. had a blunt response on Friday to the latest broadsides from former Vice President Dick Cheney: “Who cares?”

Exactly so. The national security policy pursued during George W. Bush’s first term–when Cheney was, arguably, President for Foreign Policy–was the worst, most embarrassing, most counter-productive, in American history. The Administration’s refusal to allow Hamid Karzai negotiate a deal with Mullah Omar–when the Taliban leader was at his weakest and suing for mercy in December 2001–arguably is the reason why we have the Afghan mess on our hands today.

But Cheney’s spectacular and lethal cluelessness exemplifies another phenomenon, one that plagues journalists including, on occasion, me…

That phenomenon is impatience, bolstered by a lack of knowledge. Diplomacy simply moves too slowly, on too many tracks, for the speed of latter-day journalism, especially cable news. Take this excellent example, reported by the ever-admirable Ahmed Rashid.

Rahm Emanuel’s television appearance last Sunday, in which he said that no decision could be made on more troops until the Afghan government resolved its electoral mess, was part of a coordinated effort to get Karzai to agree to a runoff election. And it worked, but not before a baloney-storm erupted among the wingers, criticizing the President and Emanuel for dithering about sending more troops. As soon as Karzai agreed to the runoff, a second message was sent by Secretary of Defense Robert Gates–plans were proceeding for the next stage of the war. The Emanuel-Gates statements were routinely described as “dueling” and, for a day or so, that’s exactly how it seemed: a slight breech between the Pentagon and the White House.

But it wasn’t. And Obama’s effort to formulate a new strategy for Afghanistan is, by all accounts, a coherent effort to incorporate four information streams–the military situation on the ground (the McChrystal stream); the military situation across the Pakistan border, where a major offensive is taking place that will have an impact on the situation in Afghanistan; the Afghan political stream; and the latest intelligence about the size, strength and intentions of Al Qaeda.

Once again, it is important to note that absolutely no such strategy review took place about Afghanistan during the Bush Administration. In fact, no basic policy review took place during the Bush Administration about Iraq, its war of choice, until 2006 when the decision was finally made to try counterinsurgency. Even more outrageous, no basic strategic review–aside from a riotously foolish bout of wishful thinking by Donald Rumsfeld–took place before the war in Iraq was launched. No American had a clue about what to do in Baghdad when we got there.

So, to hear Cheney attacking Obama now is the next thing to obscene. And to watch the neocon yackers blindly backing the 40,000 troop military option–without full knowledge of the four information streams the President has to coordinate–and attacking the President for “dithering” is laughably knee-jerk. But the rest of us have a responsibility as well to be patient, to allow the process to play out. My guess is that there are several additional developments necessary–will Karzai and Abdullah form a coalition and avoid the runoff? How will the Pakistanis fare in Waziristan?–before a final decision can be made.

Taking time to get it right was something Bush never did until it was too late. It’s disgraceful that Cheney, who should have the good sense to just go away, is criticizing the President for being more prudent about the expenditure of American lives than he ever was.

Related Topics: afghan strategy review, Barack Obama, Dick Cheney, Iraq war, rahm emanuel, Afghanistan, Uncategorized
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  • kryptik1

    I’m glad you recognize the impatience and lack of analytical sense that surrounds these kinds of diplomatic matters, as well as anything Cheney says.

    If only you could note the exact same thing that surrounds all the other kinds of issues, much like the whole Fox snit.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Back when we were gearing up for the invasion of Iraq, one of the questions that was asked WAY too infrequently was ‘Why the rush?” Why Spring of ’03 instead of Fall? Why ’03 instead of ’04? In retrospect, it’s now clear that the urgency was precisely to preclude the possibility that Saddam might be cooperative or that heaven forbid, it would be revealed that there were no WMD’s
    .
    Today’s pressure takes the same form. The faster we act, the easier it is to push through a bad decision. That’s exacly the point of the exercise and unfortunately it’s all the same people still playing the same game.

  • wsikkenga

    Secretary Gates and General McChrystal are resolving another information stream, i.e., the role of our NATO Allies.

  • Cliff

    No, no, the pitch perfect response would be for Biden to say, “Shut your dumb ass up.”

  • http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com lawyermommy

    I have come to the conclusion after repeatedly listening to Dick Cheney on a variety of issues, since he left office, that his goal is to destroy the Republican party.

    Dick Cheney is a fairly bright man I am sure, and therefore quite aware that the decisions he and Bush made while they were in power in large part, cost the Republicans the Independent voters like me during the last election.
    Not only was Cheney wrong about Afghanistan and Iraq, he was wrong about torture and pretty much everything else. Yet, he continues with great zeal to repeatedly bring the attention of the public to those areas in which the Bush administration performed horribly.

    Cheney has been reported not to be a very forgiving man and so I am thinking (and might very well be right) that Cheney is on a rampage against his own party because he did not feel supported during the course of the elections, he probably felt attacked and now feels that his legacy has been sullied by the lack of support by his party so he is like a bull in a china shop.

    His former chief of staff is even a convicted felon whom President Bush refused to pardon. Not good for a man who is concerned about his legacy.

    So Cheney, an angry man is going all out to make sure the Republican party is completely ruined.

    The Republicans are also curiously silent about Cheney’s contribution to damage against their fractured and directionless party, a party which has to all intents and purposes been co-opted by the coarse base!

    There should be efforts made by the Republicans to keep Cheney quiet because every time he speaks, many of us remember the lies we were told, the senseless wars and loss of lives and the horrible economy, a horrible economy which in part can be traced to the massive expenses incurred in concomitantly fighting two wars.

    I hope someone tells Cheney to shut up soon.
    Hmm… come to think of it, maybe these people are silent because they do not want to get shot in the face and Cheney has been known to miss-shoot on occasion :)

    LM

    http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/criminals-use-technology-to-trackrape-and-kill-innocent-people/

  • mikew67

    Executive Branch abuses of power is not a partisan issue, if we are a nation of laws. While underlings are not at issue for following orders, those who crafted any that are in fact against the laws of the United States, cannot be just given a wink & nod — saw a cool site; Balkingpoints ; incredible satellite view of earth

  • 53_3

    Can Cheney redo this speech on Halloween?
    .
    The video go nicely with my Sarah Paling Thanksgiving video.
    .
    Maybe soon, the wingnuts will supply us with a complete set of these delightful little Halloween reminders…

  • gysgt213

    Joe-It would be nice you men and women would stop treating the Cheney’s et al every utterance like its news. Dick will be in charge of Dick in the future and he has plenty of venues to experess his opinion.

  • 53_3

    Joe:
    .
    Can you do us a favor?
    .
    There is a seething mass of feces and maggots in that bucket you put out yesterday (“OutFOXed”).
    .
    Would you please empty it, they are starting to stink…

  • hellslittlestangel

    :…including, on occasion, me…”

    Every now and then Klein lets slip a line that almost confesses that he recognizes the arrogance and carelessness of his journalism. It’s a shame, because it’s those lousy qualities that prevent taking him seriously. After reading the above, I just rolled my eyes and scrolled down to the comments.

  • hellslittlestangel

    Sorry, “almost” should read “almost kinda sorta.”

  • pierogielunaire

    Dick who?

  • jcapan

    Bingo Angel. Just read this by Greenwald about our political-media elite:
    .
    “Lounging around in the editorial offices in the capital of a rapidly decaying empire, urging that more Americans be sent into endless war paid for with endless debt, while yawning and lazily waving away with boredom the hordes outside dying for lack of health care coverage, is one of the most repugnant images one can imagine.”

  • dollared

    OK, Joe, I think we have a merger of highly apt phrases in the making, combined with Se~nor Elvisberg’s “paramedia”:

    “Cheney’s last speech generated a major baloney storm in the paramedia”

    Bravo to both of you – the characterization is complete.

  • hellslittlestangel

    jc, it sounds like the Beltway elite would be okay with providing Americans with health care if it were part of a broader campaign of counter-insurgency.
    Hmm. I’d advocate bombing federal buildings and assassinating political leaders, but I’m afraid I’d be mistaken for a Republican.

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    Do you kiss your momma with that mouth 53?

  • freeinpa

    It must come with the name Joe

    2 blowhards who can talk authoritatively about nothing!!!

    Way to tackle the tough issues Joe K. Yes that swooshing noise is the sound of your career and Time circling the drain.

  • http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com lawyermommy

    Hellslittleangel,

    I am glad you chose a name truly fitting with your remarks. Republicans bomb buildings and assassinate political leaders?? You need to stop smoking whatever it is you are on, seriously!

    There is a difference between disagreement on political ideology and accusations of mass murder and terrorism. You just might need to go out a little more, read more than just comics or do a little more than stay online and relieve your private dreams. Ps: Republicans are NOT mass murderers neither are Democrats :)

    LM
    http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/criminals-use-technology-to-trackrape-and-kill-innocent-people/

  • hellslittlestangel

    Whoa, crazy lady, slow down. I didn’t suggest Republicans are committing acts of violence, merely advocating them. I’m thinking of Michelle Bachman and the various “refresh the tree of liberty’ teabagging lunatics, or the Republican representatives who have called for Taliban tactics or used a target labeled with an opponent’s initials for shooting practice, etc, etc, etc.
    .
    Also, it was a flippin’ joke already.

  • jcapan

    Kudos to WaPo for addressing their reader’s question, “Why fund war with debt but insist that health-care reform be deficit-neutral?” but the editorial reponse (link) is nothing short of mind-blowing. Some excerpts:
    .
    “wars, unlike entitlement programs, eventually come to an end. A guarantee of health care for all, particularly in the context of steadily rising costs, will bankrupt the nation if not matched by a steady stream of revenue….”
    .
    “Universal health care, however desirable, is not ‘fundamental to the defense of our people.’ Nor is it a ‘necessity’ that it be adopted this year: Mr. Obama chose to propose a massive new entitlement at a time of historic budget deficits….”
    .
    “So, in answer to our questioner: Wars end, and the spending for them tapers off; entitlement programs must be funded in perpetuity. Wars compel decisions, like the one now at hand; new entitlement programs can be phased in or delayed.”

  • sacredh

    53_3: I don’t think I’ve ever seen so many new names before. The OutFoxed thread sounds like one of my family reunions. (I don’t go anymore. Fights always break out)

  • freeinpa

    A non-news company following a non-president

  • sacredh

    freeinpa: We’re opposite ends of the political spectrum, but I wish everybody could go to one of our reunions. Lots of moonshine, fistfights, extremely loud praying (while incredibly drunk) and then someone always goes and gets a gun and starts firing it into the air to make a point. Desserts ready when the cops break it up.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Amen

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla
  • freeinpa

    Sounds like my college days

  • sacredh

    The last one I went to, two of my female cousins in their 50′s pulled each other’s wigs off and wound up going bare knuckles on each other. Nobody even tried to break it up. If you didn’t want to get drunk, you didn’t even consider drinking out of any of the punch bowls or containers. Everything was spiked. Some were dosed. If you saw somebody lurking around the drinks table, you just assumed they were up to no good. A few of them had to check to see who else was coming so that they didn’t violate restraining orders or commit a parole violation.

  • Deggjr

    I really liked Dick Cheney during the Republican National Convention. Not seen, not heard, not spoken of. That Republican repudiation is the correct treatment of Dick Cheney.

  • slapsgiving

    3 of my Aunts only showed up to my Grandfather’s funeral to collect thier inheritance.

  • sacredh

    Two years ago when my wife’s uncle died, I sat between my wife and my ex-wife. 1st cousins.

  • rdw56

    Joe is defending Joe because both have been getting it wrong forever and need to cover each other. Joe and Joe and everyone else on this thread were wrong on much of Afghanistan and Iraq including the surge where it was most obvious and most embarrasing. Tying the problems with the elections with Obama’s dithering on troops levels is absurd. The elections have nothing to to with how the military conducts the war. Either Obama gives McChrystal the troops he needssor he should start planning the withdrawal now. Liberals won’t support him in either even and Conservatives won’t support him if he isn’t fighting to win. If he doesn’t support McChrysal he loses both camps and will be forced to pull the plug.

    As far as the milirary never doing a strategic plan until recently that’s absurd. Generals don’t go to the bathroom without a strategic plan.

  • rdw56

    You really don’t want to compare Joe Biden to anyone let alone the uber-competent Dick Cheney. Newsweek just ran a cover “Why Joe is no joke”.

    When a national magazine has to explain why you are not a joke, that means you are a joke. The man is a gaffe machine with no talent other than running his mouth and even he doesn’t know what’s coming out next.

  • sacredh

    I sense a disturbance in the force. There is much anger.

  • rdw56

    You might have a point but Obama had access to the strategic plan almost a year ago and he approved changes back in March noted in a confident speech. There is no reason for this to take so long. As the conventional wisdom says, “he’s dithering”.

    This decision has nothing to do wth the election or any other ‘information streams,’

  • freeinpa

    Not that sounds like my last high school reunion

  • sacredh

    Maybe I should quit before we get down to pre-natal experiences or past life regressions.

  • freeinpa

    Especially when they refused to print any negative letters to the editor about the article

  • 53_3

    I lifted the lid over there at the “OutFOXed” thread and regaled them with stories of unspeakable pleasures if they came over while I was peeing, sacred.
    .
    They weren’t going for it. They wanted the urine more…

  • 53_3

    I’ve never seen so many turds in one toilet either, sacred. That’s why I asked Joe if he could please flush it.
    .
    I think he must have left the back door unlocked…

  • slapsgiving

    Anger is all they have. After all those lost elections thier dreams of the rich getting richer and the middle class dieing in horrible wretched squalor are being squashed.

  • sacredh

    I was just over there too. I offered cookies to come over to the darkside and tossed in a couple of snarks myself. I’m hoping the one about Coulter, Rush and the strap-on triggers a sh!tstorm. Of course I’ll be going to work soon so I’ll have to wait until morning to see any responses.

  • ohiolib

    that, or “Go f#$% yourself.” Either would be fitting.

  • 53_3

    It’s like opening a cesspool to find writhing maggots surprised in mid-feed.
    .
    I wish there was a way to trap those suckers and dispose of them properly, given that Joe has found a way to attract ‘em. Maybe someone could start a business…

  • kujan

    Gee, Joe, you mean the foreign policy YOU supported? Until of course, you didn’t.

    You mean the foreign policy JOE BIDEN supported? Until, of course, he didn’t.

    The foreign policy CLINTON, JONES, GATES, PANETTA and pretty much Obama’s entire war cabinet supported? Until, of course, they didn’t.

    Seems to me, of everybody in this mess, Obama and Cheney are the only two who should be listened to. Since the rest of you change your minds with every new Pew poll.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    I don’t know why anyone would listen to Cheney. First he is obviously a coward of the highest order. I believe he took 4 deferments to stay out of Vietnam. He hid in an undisclosed location while the rest of us in DC went back to work with one eye on the sky. He had his subordinate Scooter Libby take the weight for his crime and couldn’t even get him the pardon he promised.

    Sorry Joe, but when you have to buy Fox network in order to engender enough positive press coverage to win an election you deserve to go the way of the wigs. Of course when you and the rest of the so-called the real media are too stupid or to lazy to know the difference, then you deserve to lose the respect of the people and the market share that ensures your livelihood.

    This kind of unrestrained and unquestioned propaganda is what allowed nefarious regimes in the past to flourish. To assume that it can’t happen here is ludicrous. All anyone need do is to look at what you people did to the Clintons. The media is directly responsible for brining the Bush-Cheney fiasco to fruition and now you’ll be responsible if the public forgets their sins. The country cannot survive a return to the dark side I can only hope if for nothing else than your own selfish reasons that you’ll rethink the narrative that your brethren have been pursuing.

    The media is poised to Clintonize the Obama administration. And God help us all if you people succeed in indulging yours egos and do the GOP’s bidding in the process. Just remember, they have fox. They don’t believe in the msm, in fact, they see you as the enemy. Considering their documented willingness to ignore the constitution and pack the court with ideologues don’t think any rights are safe even yours.

  • http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com lawyermommy

    There are no angels in hell so I rename you hells little ferocious demon :) .
    Anyway, your remarks imply that those statements were ascribed to Republicans as a group and not Michelle Bachman or others who belong to a group of Right wing extremists.

    PS: That was a joke, supposedly? It totally sucked!!!

    LM

    http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/criminals-use-technology-to-trackrape-and-kill-innocent-people/

  • peterinjapan

    Hi, I will come back to this blog exactly ONE more time. If I see advertising content that purposely overflows its borders and blogs the content I am trying to read, I will never, ever come back again.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    The elections have nothing to to with how the military conducts the war.
    .
    So you’re OK with using US troops to prop up an unpopular and illegitamate regime?
    .
    Thought so……

  • http://unconquerablegladness.wordpress.com/2009/10/25/punch-out-cont-2/ punch-out!! (cont) « unconquerable gladness

    [...] 25, 2009 · Leave a Comment joe klein: Rahm Emanuel’s television appearance last Sunday, in which he said that no decision could be [...]

  • bitterpill8

    Cheney delivered his “dithercoscopy” at Frank Gaffney’s Center for Security Policy after he received an ‘award”. Also present and at the receiving end of an ‘award ‘was “Bush Pardon Denied” felon Scooter Libby.

    Now “Five Deferments (Vietnam)” Dick felt the need to repeat his point that he made then and still makes now” : he has important things to do.

    Context, people, context.

  • rustyreturns

    “I think what the administration is doing is exactly what we said it would do. And what I think it warrants doing. And that is making an informed judgment based upon circumstances that have changed.”

    .
    What has “changed” exactly in Afghanistan, Mr Biden?
    .
    While Pakistan is moving through the Taliban and Al Qaeda controlled regions, Obama sits on his thumbs and waits. Waits for what?
    .
    Hell to freeze over? A clear strategy has been proposed by the military. Obama with the ill informed advice from Biden, continues to hedge and sit idly by while our military are shot and killed.
    .
    If we are not going to go in to Afghanistan with a clear mission to rid this area of the Islamic extremists, then it is time to cut and run (usual Democrat strategy), and get the hell out of the place.
    .
    The only thing Obama is doing is delaying, and will end up with another Vietnam on his hands. The same situation that happened under President Johnson.
    .
    You are such a hack, Joe Klein. Continuing the talking points of the Obama Administration’s use of putting down the last Administration only allows him to screw this entire situation up. If you had any conscious at all and did not want to see the continued un-needed deaths of our Military men and women then you would call Obama and Biden out on all of this now. By you going off topic to comment on a non-issue like what Chaney says, simply delays what Obama should be doing and that is “making a damn decision already”.
    .
    What you should be doing is calling Obama out for his in-actions, and his refusal to follow the military’s advice. We all know that he is now famous for making quick statements about foreign policy matters, then when he realizes the mistake he has made, Obama will then sit on it for weeks and months on end before acting.
    .
    For someone who thinks he can take on multiple issues, all I see is that Obama starts many things, and finishes NOTHING!

  • rustyreturns

    The big question is when will the MSM begin to hold Obama accountable? When will they begin to ask the tough questions that the media should be asking of this President, like all the Presidents before him?
    .
    When will you start focusing on Obama’s in-actions, Joe Klein, instead of the past Bush/Cheney Administration?

  • chiefjgmac

    Or maybe, I have been so right on foreign policy issues in the past, i.e first gulf war, the surge etc, maybe I should be honest and tell the American people if we did in fact have the Bush assessment and ask them not to release it. Remember Joe your boss talking about making his the most transparent administration. Where’s the beef (truth, in this case) Joe? Maybe you should just STFU.

  • rustyreturns

    “If only you could note the exact same thing that surrounds all the other kinds of issues, much like the whole Fox snit.”

    .
    The only thing Klein “stirs” up is the crap from the far left. He gets out his amazing Kitchen-made mixer, and flings crap all over the walls. Then, Klein runs.
    .
    Instead of pointing out the flaws of the Obama Administration, Klein focuses on past Administrations, using the Obama talking points to “stir” more crap.
    .
    Joe Klein is nothing more than a big JOKE.
    .
    TIME magazine and their web site here is nothing more than a BIG JOKE.
    .
    One only needs to go look at all of the comments on Klein’s blog attacking Fox News to fully see that the vast majority of Americans want the Obama Administration to be held accountable, NOW.
    .
    Not next year Joe Klein, NOW.
    .
    Asking the tough questions of this administration just might get you back some little sense of credibility, TIME. You would benefit greatly by taking a page out of the Fox News strategy book!!!!!

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    The only thing Obama is doing is delaying, and will end up with another Vietnam on his hands.
    .
    The big problem with VietNam is that the regime we were supporting was unpopular and illegitimate within the country. The Viet Cong you will recall were citizens of the country we were allegedly defending.
    .
    What Obama is doing is precisely to avoid another Vietnam by assuring that the regime we support is in place properly. Of course Republicans traditionally have no interest in self-determination. That’s why they keep trying to undermine their own elected government….

  • rustyreturns

    “What Obama is doing is precisely to avoid another Vietnam by assuring that the regime we support is in place properly.”

    .
    No, it is his usual wishy washy policy making standard of practice. Obama lacks any and all judgment and decision skills. He has never managed or run anything except a political campaign, and that is debateable now that we know of all the scandal and corruption in ACORN who he hired to do all of his political activisim to get elected.
    .
    Obama is simply sitting on his thumbs. He is attempting to take on way too many things at the same time, and by doing so he is doing exactly like Johnson did in the 60′s.
    .
    Read your history dumba$$ before you comment.

  • chiefjgmac

    “I don’t know why anyone would listen to Cheney. First he is obviously a coward of the highest order. I believe he took 4 deferments to stay out of Vietnam.”

    Actually, I think the reports were 5. But that is not important. What did Clinton do? I think what should be done is a to take a poll of all elected officials between the ages of 50-70 as to where they were during the Vietnam conflict. How many of them took deferments and why. The Dems always want to blame everyone else for not serving. Now it is time to man up. Where were you then????? From someone who did not take a deferment.

  • rdw56

    Joe is getting punked on his claim no strategic review took place. The National Review, Wall Street Journal, Fox news, Washington Times and several other publications are reporting a very extensive review took place and team Obama was briefed BEFORE the election over a period of days. Both parties were involved as well as all of the military and security services. Dumb Lie for Rahm especially when it doesn’t matter. Obama is dithering and if he doesn’t meet McChrystals demands he’ll lose all of his support. His only support on the war is from conservatives. but they will not support putting troops ni harms way if he isn’t tryng to win. The concept of Joe Biden developing a strategy is insulting. Everytme we get bad news from Afghanistan Obama will be blamed for over-ruling the Generals. The Generals who designed the surge and won in Iraq.

  • omgamike

    It would be terribly refreshing for all concerned if we could read comments from those on the right that were reasoned and balanced, instead of constantly full of obscenities, half-truths and outright lies.

    For those of us who grew up during the peak of the Vietnam war, the difficulties in Iraq and Afghanistan bring back terrible memories of being in a war that no one supported or believed in, in a place where we were not wanted for a cause that was never made clear to those who were dying there.

    We were dragged into Iraq on a foundation of lies and half truths. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Saddam, though definitely a bad person, had done nothing to us. But anyone who protested our being there was told they were unpatriotic, or un-American. That was always the refrain of those on the right to try and stifle opposition to their unjust wars.

    Osama was in Afghanistan — which was where we justifiably went at the beginning. And if we had not caved in to Bush’s desires in Iraq, if we had concentrated our efforts on Afghanistan, the conflict in Afghanistan would already be over.

    So, I commend our President for taking all the time he needs to try and get it right — to finally engage our true enemies based on a well thought out strategy, using tactics appropriate to the particular situation.

    We cannot stay at war forever, contrary to what those on the right believe. We can’t afford it. We can’t track down every terrorist or potential terrorist all over the globe, contrary to what those on the right believe. We can’t afford it.

    We are not the world’s policeman. Nor are we the final arbiter of what is right and/or wrong, morally, in the world. Someone might throw a rock right into our glass house. And we can’t afford that, either.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    if he doesn’t meet McChrystals demands
    .
    Interesting word choice. Is it common for military personnel to make ‘demands’ on their superiors? The Constitution has very specific safeguards to prevent the Military from dictating policy. Handing the keys to the pocketbook to Congress and the command of the Armed forces to an elected official are just two examples.
    .
    It’s apparent that this containment of recklessness is working as designed. God help us if it ever fails…..

  • theotherjimmyolson

    I’m with ohiolib on this one.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    This is exactly why progressives and liberals and dare I say centrists ought to be grateful that they are not Republicans. While we may have many deep differences, we at least believe in individual rights in practice. The GOP gives the rights of the individual a lot of lip service but in practice, Republican elected officials are not allowed to act on their own. I’m still not sure if the hundreds of pounds of rock salt was meant to melt the evil witch Olympia Snowe or they’d rather use the rocks to stone her – I mean they do have a penchant for the biblical. Democrats might argue amongst themselves and might be frustrated with the difficulty of getting us all on the same page, but who among you would rather have the kind of GOP discipline that also demands such strict obedience to authority. And make no mistake there is no bigger symbol of authority than the military, and they advocate that elected leadership defer to the generals.

    Clearly the GOP doesn’t have a good understanding of the definition of democracy. Perhaps that’s why everyone from Bush, who abdicated his leadership role to Cheney, Cheney who urged so much of the policy that was unconstitutional including torture. Palin who thought the constitution mandated a department of law and some other role for the vice presidency that no one else has ever heard of and many of the rank and file members advocate for an authoritarian regime that doesn’t question its leadership to the point of accepting and celebrating felons. They defer to anyone in uniform. Frankly, I worry how quickly these people would try to institute some sort of junta/theocratic hybrid given half a chance.

  • shepherdwong

    “The Dems always want to blame everyone else for not serving.”
    .
    That’s a lie. The Dems want to blame only those who insist that we should throw more innocent victims on the pyres they’ve built to their own pride, arrogance and sadism. But it’s of no surprise whatsoever that the wingnuts have completely lost the ability to recognize even that rank hypocrisy.

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    Gosh Dee, sounds as though you have little faith in your Kenyan muslim, Chicago marxist thug president. How’s Omalleyman working out for ya’ there in the great blue state of Maryland?

  • adajam

    We might not hear from Dick Cheney anymore, we now have Liz doing all the dirty work for him. She’s a better weapon that he ever was. It’s no surprise that birthers and all conspiracy theorists love her.
    .
    President Obama is using caution and advise to make an informed, and INTELLIGENT decision on Aghanistan. This is more than we could have ever expect from George-Shoot-From-The Hip-Bush. Or, was he just lip-synching to the Cheney/Rumsfeld soundtrack?
    .
    Obama will be the one making the final decision, not the military. The role of the military in a DEMOCRACY is to advise, not to dictate policy. The GOP would love for this country to become a military dictatorship. Perhaps they succeeded under Bush, we just never realized it.
    .
    By the way, 2thirds, you show your ignorance by calling the President a Kenya Muslim and a Marxist. This removes all credence from the rest of your comments.

  • adajam

    Oops! Sorry about the typo….Afghanistan.

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    Same old tired response. Credence in your eyes is the least of my concerns. This commie president you worship lost all credence from the word go. President means nothing to him, he wants to rule the world. Go ahead and march lockstep and kiss his ring. Obedient little lefty.

  • stuartzechman

    Again, interesting commentary.
    .
    Thanks to those who made the effort.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    There’s nothing wrong with my faith, it’s conservatives of your ilk that are so afraid of everything that you can’t tightly control that you are driven to try to stamp out anything that doesn’t fit within your mold. You call yourselves Americans, but clearly Americans drive you crazy. How frustrating it must be to claim a love of freedom when all you really want to do is to restrict the freedoms of those who are not like you. It is so clear that you don’t like most of our country or most of the people who live here. I take it that democracy is an affront to the authoritarian theocracy you seem to prefer. How frustrating it must be to worship a belief system that has been warned against by tradition and law. My what it must be like to pledge allegiance to a constitution that wants no part of your point of view. And that you must rely on lies and half-baked crazy theories perpetuated by people whose intellectual capacity does not surpass the third grade.
    .
    Fortunately, those of us who live for the adventure of navigating a diverse and surprising world and are looking forward to the evolution happening at home and abroad out number you. Moreover, while you inhabit the countryside and smaller hamlets, you and your buddies are too busy quaking in your boots, railing against the future to do the rest of us very much harm. Once again your fear has driven you to distraction. In the 80s your fear convinced you that your survival was on the line so you dug bunkers underground and waited for the end. In the 90s you got afraid again and stockpiled your guns, home schooled your kids and created militias to protect you from the roaming hordes that would come with the end. In the 00s you have all fallen victim to the fear of terrorists around every corner and once again you gave in to your propensity to hunker down in the bunker of the undisclosed location mentality. While its truly sad from a human tragedy of a wasted life kind of perspective, its also your life not mine so who really cares.
    .
    I suppose the Cheneycons, Beckians, or Limbats of the future are busy in their cave coming up with the next end of days prophecy, while the rest of us are out here in the light soaking up our daily dose of vitamin D. You keep on milking your fears while the rest of the world moves on. Perhaps big pharma will come up with a cure for fear and you wont have to keep asking government to fix it.

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    My kingdom for an original response. Same ole tired liberal doctrine. Onward thruogh the fog……

  • Art Pepper

    So I think I understand the conservative position. The job of a Republican president is to ignore advice from his generals, and the job of a Democratic president is to immediately implement the “demands” from his generals.

    Also, a Republican president should let Afghanistan fester for 7 years, but a Democratic president should have it all wrapped up within 12 months.

    But I’ll ask the conservatives the same question that was asked about Iraq: What will it mean to “win” in Afghanistan?

  • WisconsinLiberal

    Honestly guys, can we please stop responding to the trolls? Just let them be and they’ll go away or get frustrated.

  • jcapan

    Exactly

  • ohiolib

    well, we used to have no feed thursdays, but that seems to have broken down. +sigh+

  • rdw56

    A generals demand is, “This is what is needed to complete the mission”. They demand the resources they need to win. This isn’t demand as in a 5-yr old in need of a nap or a union rep.

    This is Obama’s dilemma. It’s very possible the general is asking for 40K when he needs 30K, just in case. It’s reasonable and expected they should build in a reserve. War isn’t precise. And sometimes a President is capable of recognizing the amount of the reserve and adjusting accordingly. But not this President and for damn sure not this VP. Not the Sec of State or NSA either, All have an established track record of getting it wrong.

    His dithering is embarrasing because it’s unsupportable and any decision to shortchange McCrystal means Obama has become the chief strategist. All failures are his and his alone.

    The current political problem is worse. The left never felt Afghanistan was the necessary war and they don’t now. The right will support the President only as long as the generals are in charge. The minute he takes control he loses the right. Then he’s got no support.

  • rdw56

    “The GOP would love for this country to become a military dictatorship. Perhaps they succeeded under Bush, we just never realized it”

    Are you that stupid?

  • rdw56

    “I suppose the Cheneycons, Beckians, or Limbats of the future are busy in their cave coming up with the next end of days prophecy, ”

    Do you have any idea how much these peope make? It ain’t caves they’re living in.

  • stuartzechman

    Yes.

  • rdw56

    “For those of us who grew up during the peak of the Vietnam war, the difficulties in Iraq and Afghanistan bring back terrible memories of being in a war that no one supported or believed in”

    Let’s not get hysterical. While there’s much to blame JFK and LBJ for regarding Vietnam, Iraq is vastly different. I grew up during Vietnam and you are full of crap. It was supported by a majority of Americans and the dipsticks in the anti-war movement got Dick Nixon elected and extended the war by at least 7years. They were and remain quintessential L O S E Rs. The antiwar protests for Iraq were pathetic and quite obviously had no effect.

  • sacredh

    They did drive the OutFoxed thread to over 360. We haven’t seen that many posts in a while.

  • 53_3

    “Do you have any idea how much these peope make? It ain’t caves they’re living in.
    .
    Does this mean you think we should worship them, too?
    .
    As for the antiwar protests, they only had no effect if you consider that the GOP losing the extinction, er, election was a non-event, rdw56…

  • 53_3

    2/3rds of a nut:
    .
    I’m beginning to get a sense of a pattern here:
    .
    Commenter makes interesting comment
    You make snide remark, add insults
    Commenter supports comment with facts
    You sharpen your insults
    .
    Do you see how this is working, 2/3rds? I mean, I will grant you this:
    .
    It’s more entertaining than watching the old “off air” pattern on old late night analog TV, but not by much…

  • rdw56

    “As for the antiwar protests, they only had no effect if you consider that the GOP losing the extinction, er, election was a non-event,”

    Well if the anti-war protest had an effect in 2006 it would have been to limit war. right? That’s pretty obvious isn’t it? We do have a ton of youtube and I am not aware of single clip of Obama or Reid or Pelosi or a single anti-war type demanding MORE TROOPS.

    Yet we sent more troops didnt we?

    More troops was a good idea wasn’t it???

    In fact isn’t part of the problem right now in terms of judging the proficiency of Obama and Biden and Clinton (both) the fact ALL WERE TOTALLY WRONG on the surge???

    Think about it. If you are in the military or have a family member serving don’t you look at Obama to learn what NOT to do??????

  • rdw56

    “Does this mean you think we should worship them, too?”

    Never worship success. Respect success. Learn from success. If you want to refute success don’t do it via a temper tantrum. Childern have temper tantrums. You can hate Rush and you should hate Rush. He makes an incredible living mocking you. This is so because he attacks you for who you are and he gives examples. Accusing Ruh for beng a cave dweller is an insult to stupid people. If you can’t do better than that don’t try.

    Limbaugh has > 20M listeners. That’s more than the 3 network newscasts. Your attacks on his personality cannot work. You’ve made him. Either you will counter his viewpoint or he will go to 30M.

  • 53_3

    Not by much, rdw, we’re drawing down. And November 4, 2008 is a fact.
    .
    I don’t think Obama is on the wrong track at all. I will say this:
    .
    Take this subject up again on day 700 of his administration. Right now, we are in what, day 245?
    .
    With the economy bottoming out, the DOW above 10,000, signs of recovery on the horizon, Obama’s measures resolving the credit crunch, impending withdrawals from Iraq, an honest assessment of Afghanistan, etc etc I look forward to what day 700 will look like.
    .
    I don’t think you will like it at all.
    .
    As for if I was a serviceman, I would prefer that my skills be used wisely, like an intelligent and capable swordsman, rather than be pimped for a dysfunctional ideology…

  • 53_3

    Hate to clue you in and I’ve said it many times, rdw:
    .
    The listeners hip is not an indicator of strength in numbers. Instead, it indicates that if you cast a wide net, you’ll catch a lot of fish, no matter how rare they are.
    .
    Second, there’s no doubt there’s overlap in the FOX viewership, as, again, it’s only the one waterhole. The other shows are widely scattered over many networks, and are much less likely to suffer much overlap. There are simply far too many waterholes for real Americans like us to drink from to congregate at any one place.
    .
    You can keep fooling yourselves all you want, but neither the facts, nor the rest of the planet, agree with you…

  • 53_3

    By the way, did you know that the DOW has been climbing ever since Obama resolved the credit crunch?
    .
    Now, regardless of your views on “success”, which is not an exclusive feature of your peers, these people are answering survey questions on Obama’s policies with their money!
    .
    Like it or not, rdw, them is facts…

  • kbanginmotown

    dithering == finding the time and legal expertise to figure out who is right an wrong on a particular issue…

  • rdw56

    “Like it or not, rdw, them is facts…”

    There are facts and there are facts I’m not so sure it’s a fact the credit crunch has been resolved let alone the messiah did all of the heavy lifting.

    This is one of those areas you need to be sure to take credit only when you can make an actual connection. The focus is on jobs and the record is worse than horrible. The fact is Obama declared war on business and we’re all losing.

    It’s not just that he’s created a horrible environment for investing but he’s enabled lefty state govts to do more damage. Obama hasn’t so much as run a hot dog stand. We’ve never elected someone so inexperienced. The job market is awful and he can’t help. He doesn’t know where to strart.

  • kbanginmotown

    Only if he said it on the floor of the f@$#ing senate wearing his 5-deferment purple-heart bad-aid….

  • 53_3

    If what you said was true, the DOW would be going down, not up. Strike one.
    .
    And btw, there was no question on that, as no one could get credit at the start of his administration. Look it up, but not on FOX. Strike two.
    .
    And of course, I don’t need to point out that unemployment numbers are a lagging indicator. Strike three.
    .
    It took FDR two years+ to resolve the basal Great Depression, and, like I’ve said, it’s only 245 days in, so, thanks, but no thanks on the the vitriol. No facts there…

  • 53_3

    Talk to me on day 700, rdw…

  • 53_3

    Oh, by the way, you keep referring to a “messiah”. Don’t you mean Rush?
    .
    After all, his term, “dittohead”, implies a lack of ability to think and a robotic willingness to follow unconditionally – facts or not. I’ve heard him, and I know that he’s not exactly a stickler for accuracy…
    .
    So really, just who is doing messiah-worshiping here?
    .
    Oh, wait, I’ll anticipate your next dodge:
    .
    rdw56
    He’s just an entertainer.
    .
    There. Did it for ya…

  • rdw56

    “, but neither the facts, nor the rest of the planet, agree with you…”

    I’m not 100% sure what you are getting at but let’s make one clear distinction. Conservatives are not teenagers. This isn’t a popularity contest. I don’t spend 1 second wondering if the French agree with me. I have my values. They matter. The French don’t matter. No disrespect. They are fine people entitled to their own values. Let them adhere to their values as I observe my own. Ditto the Germans, Italians and Somaons.

    I don’t care if they agree. They can’t help. They can hurt. Our military is so advanced we’d have to slow down to allow the French to keep pace. Let’s be clear. They are not cowards, The French are brave. But they cannot keep up.

  • 53_3

    That was in reference to your ridiculous boast about the FOX and Rush listenership.
    .
    Whether you care isn’t of interest here. As far as your claim you are not teenagers, then perhaps you need to stick to facts and not misrepresent opinion as such. Your values are you own, but whether they are couched in reality is an entirely other slug in the garden…

  • 53_3

    Did anyone tell you that the French are not our enemy, rdw?
    .
    I found that out a loooooooong time ago. Where the hell are you, anyway? Still stuck in CheneyWorld?

  • rdw56

    “It took FDR two years+ to resolve the basal Great Depression, and, like I’ve said, it’s only 245 days in, so, thanks, but no thanks on the the vitriol. No facts there..”

    Sorry, unemployment was sky-high in 1938 when FDR abandoned the New Deal. Even Kool-aid drinkers like Art Schleshinger Jr agree the New Deal did nothing for the depression. WWII ended the depression and the key event was reducing the work force by drafting workers. Obviously it didn’t hurt when the automakers started selling tanks rather than cars.

    There isn’t a single credibly economist who credits the New Deal with lowering unemployment. THere were fewer jobs in 1938 than 1929.

    Facts is facts.

  • 53_3

    Oh, and do I need to remind you rather sharply, rdw, that the economic collapse started in the previous August, well within the Bush Administrations’ duration?
    .
    Like I said, you can’t put this on Obama.
    .
    Those are da facts

  • 53_3

    Then try this one, and you are misrepresenting here.
    .
    In 1932, Unemployement was over 25%, in 1934-5, it was approximately 10%.
    .
    Go look for yourself:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal
    .
    Oh, before you complain about Wikipedia, look at the links at the end of the article for your documentation!
    .
    You looze, again…

  • 53_3

    So far, rdw, you’re oh-fer, too…

  • 53_3
  • rdw56

    “Did anyone tell you that the French are not our enemy, rdw?
    .
    I found that out a loooooooong time ago”

    Good for you. Give yourself a pat on the back. yes the French are our allies and yes that’s obvious. We don’t share a brain. Meaning sometimes we’ll disagree.

    Meaning the fact we disagree is not a problem. We’re not expected to agree all the time. The bottom line is France is at most 1/7 our size and thus deserving of one vote for our 7 votes. Further, we have a professional army. They invest less than 1/20 in their military. It’s not fair to ask American soldiers to babysit French soldiers. They are brave. It’s not about bravery. They are unskilled and thus dangerous. Furrher, they know thiis. The french deserve a voice but only 1/50 of the USA. They can’t help. They can only get in the way.

  • 53_3

    What in hell are you talking about, anyway, rdw?
    .
    Babysitting French soldiers?
    .
    Right now, I think you’re just trying to find something to scream about. This is the least of our country’s problems right now.
    .
    In the meantime, you are getting sorely beaten in the fact department…

  • rdw56

    Then try this one, and you are misrepresenting here.
    .
    In 1932, Unemployement was over 25%, in 1934-5, it was approximately 10%.

    rdw- let’s be a little less pathetic. I didn’t say anything about 1934 did I? I used 1938 for a reason. FDR had been President for almost 7 years. His economic policy was a failure and he absolutely, positively abandoned it. The New Deal was dead at the beginning of 1939 as FDR acceded economic policy to the industrialists.

    I’ve misrepresented NOTHING. You cherrypick and you are pathetic.

  • 53_3

    As for disagreeing, well, hell, if you want to believe that pigs fly, then that’s your opinion entirely.
    .
    What you failed to do is base it on a foundation of facts…

  • 53_3

    Go look at the articles, rdw. Don’t argue with me, argue with them.
    .
    Your dodge is to try to “skip” over the 1932 to 1934-5 portion of that particular history.
    .
    I’ll let others judge the merits of this one, but, like I said, you looze…

  • 53_3

    And, rdw, I might point out, again, sharply, that the context of this debate was that I stated that FDR ameliorated the Great Depression in 2 years
    .
    I did not say anything about “7 years” or anything else, but, just for the record, you are wrong there, too.
    .
    Had the New Deal not worked, and it’s progeny survived as rural subsidies, which I pay for, you would be farming dirt…

  • rdw56

    “In the meantime, you are getting sorely beaten in the fact department…”

    What fact?

    I didn’t say were were babysitting French soldiers. I said it’s not fair to ask our soldiers to do so. Let’s face it. We have an incredibly well trained and professional army with a lot of experience.

    How many French soldier’s alive today have actually fired a shot in anger? NONE have ever been stationed in a war zone. The agreements on Afghanistan prohibit French soldiers be in a red zone.

    It goes without saying units in actual battlefield become more proficient. Then it follows there is a huge difference between French and American.

  • 53_3

    Life sucks rdw, don’t it?
    .
    It’s them damned facts

  • rdw56

    “And, rdw, I might point out, again, sharply, that the context of this debate was that I stated that FDR ameliorated the Great Depression in 2 years”

    What does that mean?????

    Did he end the depression in 2 years???

    I never heard that one.

    Unemployment was near 20% in 1938. The New Deal was a DISASTER as economic policy. FDR abandoned it. The depression was ended by WWII. Not by FDR.

  • 53_3

    They are filling a role that we would otherwise have to commit our troops for.
    .
    I’m not bothered by that. It’s not really an issue, other than something for you to pick about and bust an aorta or two over, sdw.
    .
    These things happen in all cooperative efforts. At least they are there doing something we would otherwise have to commit more troops to do ourselves.
    .
    So maybe wind down the rabies, eh…

  • 53_3

    rdw, look up the word ameliorate.
    .
    Obama has only had 245 days, it took FDR over 700. Call back when you get your dictionary out and look up that English Language word.
    .
    It’s in Websters…

  • cfukara

    What is in a word?

    USA “dithers”..
    “All For Money!” Cheney – that is, eh, ‘seditious’ ..
    “All for ?” JK – that is,eh, heavenly. …

    Someone else “dithers” …
    JK – that is evil empire – nuke ‘em!..
    “All For Oil!” Cheney – nuke ‘em!

    [Moral: When the stars/signs/fates are aligned, "All For Israel" JK and "All For Money" Cheney see eye to eye more often that you imagine ..]

  • rdw56

    “Life sucks rdw, don’t it?
    .
    It’s them damned facts…”

    What facts??? Interesting you don’t cite any.

    Life is good..

    It’s fun watching Joe Klein and the fools at Newsweek try to sell Joe Biden.

    When you run on your cover “Joe is no fool” that means Joe is a fool.

    One of my favorite Fox clips is of Joe and John Roberts. As ranking member of the Senate judiciary commottee Biden gets 1st crack at candidate Roberts and he has 15 minutes to ask a question. Don’t you know the gasbag is so stupid he can’t get a question off in 15 minutes. Arlen Spector was priceless in apologizing to John Roberts for having to sit there and listen to Joe Biden for 15 minutes. That’s far worse than water boarding.

    Joe Biden is actually on tape musing about going to a different way of passing supreme court justices because the current system isn’t working for Senators. “save me before I humiliate myself again”

  • rdw56

    “Obama has only had 245 days, it took FDR over 700. Call back when you get your dictionary out and look up that English Language word”

    No need. I know the meaning and it is pointless. Did the new deal end the Depression? It absolutely, positively did not. No credible, mainstream economist suggests it did.

    FDD abandoned the New Deal in 1938. He made no claim otherwise. The new Deal was a failure in terms of economic policy. NO credible economists support any suggesting the New Deal worked in the 30′s.

    It absolutely, positively DID NOT.

  • abdullah69

    two thirds may have a point of view which could be debated, but he expresses himself so badly that it is impossible to tell. Maybe the President should prioritise education over healthcare. However the opposition from the Republicans would be far greater. The last thing the GOP needs is an electorate who are capable of rationally formulating opinions.

  • rdw56

    To get back to one of the keys to the orignal thread is Joe’s obsession with Darth Vader, How is Joe going to deal with his evil spawn, Liz? Joe has been at this for decades and because LIZ gets on Fox she already has a larger audience.

    I get Dick get’s under your skin. He should. He’s very, very good, Joe spend his entire post spitting bile at Dick. When will he try to make a coherent argument? Dick said Obama is dithering. Well Duh! He issued strong statesments in March and nw he needs to think longer?

  • cfukara

    Wars kill mostly innocent civilians.
    Talking about killing another human being:

    Have you “fired a shot in anger”?

    During the WW2, whites in occupied South Africa conscripted thousands of the victimized natives into their ranks and shipped them to the front lines in North Africa – armed with spears and arrows.
    Now and then, a few hundreds would be dispatched towards the enemy’s tanks, planes and long-range guns. As if on cue, the enemy would dutifully mow the natives down before they got within 100 times the range of their spears and arrows.
    O, joy! Target practice time! Jolly good time, eh?

    Have you fired a shot at a human kid – just for sport?

  • adajam

    rdw:
    “The GOP would love for this country to become a military dictatorship. Perhaps they succeeded under Bush, we just never realized it”
    .
    Are you that stupid?
    ——————————-
    You must have recognized my last sentence as irony. You obviously didn’t, but that’s OK.
    .
    My bottom line on this issue is still the same: President Obama is being prudent by taking the intelligent road, developing strategy, and following advise from his military advisors and experts. He will make the decision to send in more troops, and how many, based on the information he gathers.
    .
    I saw first-hand the suffering and pain of a mother and father, and a brother, when my best friend lost her 20 year-old son in Iraq almost 5 years ago. He would still be alive if President Bush had taken his time and listened to his military advisors, and waited until confirming there were no WMD’s. The rush in judgment has cost too many lives, American and Iraqis.
    .
    Even if President Obama had made the decision of sending troops 3 or 4 weeks ago, they would not arrive in theatre until perhaps January. Such are the logistics of sending tens of thousands of troops to the war zone. You must know that. My husband just retired from the Air Force after 30 years of service, and dealt with deployments during the first Gulf War. He also knows deployments are not accomplished overnight, and should be treated with care and respect.
    .
    We do not have all the facts. The President does. Let’s allow him to do his job.

  • sevenoaks07

    cfukura: I enjoy poking fun at wingnutland, too. But your bit on South Africa’s black spear throwers facing Rommel’s Afrika Korps is way out of line. Black were excluded from military service. If you want to be funny, and you have done so many times, find another example.

  • freeinpa

    rdw56

    You have to forgive IQ53. He keeps yelling “facts” but never let’s one ge in his way. He is the recent academic study by UCLA economists that show FDR and his Obama loke policies extended the Depression.

    Now maybe you can understand why libs are so hell bent on a HC care blame they need medication.

    http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx

  • rdw56

    “So you’re OK with using US troops to prop up an unpopular and illegitamate regime?”

    They are two different issues. Obama has been the most eloguent man on the planet in explaining why Afghanistan is the necessary war. As he explained we have to fight Al Qaeda and theTaliban and make sure they do not return. That’s true if Karzai is popular or unpopular, legitimate or not.

    I think Karzai has to go. I think Obama has to work on two issues at the same time. He has to try to reform the govt and he has to fight Al Qaeda and the Taliban. One doesn’t depend on the other.

    His problem with McChrystal is either he is going to fight to win or he isn’t. McChrystal has told him what he needs to win. If Obama supports McChrystal conservatives will support Obama. If he doesn’t they will support removing the troops from harms way because it’s become a pointless exercise.

    Once he loses conservative support it’s over. Liberals never supported the effort. When it comes time for Congress to approve funding Obama will lose.

    Moreover the military will turn against him. It will be an impossible position.

  • rdw56

    “You must have recognized my last sentence as irony. You obviously didn’t, but that’s OK.”

    There’s irony and there’s overwrought whinning. Obama isn’t taking his time he is dithering. Perhaps you remember when he fired the theatre commander in Afghanistan and replaced him with McChrystal. He also approved more troops. It was 6 months ago. Are you saying he didn’t understand what was going in in Afghanistan then? He didn’t have information then so he needs to gather it now?

    Rahm Emanuel lied through his teeth. There had been a wide strategic review and he had been briefed on it before he was even elected. His decision in March was based on it. Gates and Petraeus were appointed by Bush and reappointed by Obama.

    Obama is dithering and his WH is lying about the plans. Even CNN is reporting Rahms position is indefensible.

    It is easy to see why Obama keeps on bashing Bush. People like you can’t get him out of his head. Besides displaying a total lack of class it’s stupid of Obama and the WH to keep blaming eveything on someone else. He’s President. Grow a pair and act like it.

    BTW: the Bush didn’t listen to his generals is a soundbite designed for fools by fools. I have a news flash for you. David Petraeus is a General. GWB listened to him. Obama did not. Hillary did not. Reid did not. Joe Klein did not. GWB was absolutely, positively correct. Look back at some of Joe’s statements and you can see why there’s such bile from him regarding GWB. Joe is humiliated over the surge. In a day of search engines and youtube it’s easy to expose him as a total fool and he gets it. All of these people were as wrong as wrong can be, And they can’t hide it or pretend otherwise.

    How does Obama dither when he was such a staunch supporter of the Good War? The Necessary War. The man was in the Senate for two years before he was President and was elected almost a full year ago and he’s now collecting facts. What’s he been doing?

  • cfukara

    rdw56 October 26, 2009 at 12:16 am:

    ” .. We have an incredibly well trained and professional army with a lot of experience. ..”
    and full of anger, presumably …
    “We have” suggests that we cannot escape culpability for their actions too …

    ” .. How many French soldier’s alive today have actually fired a shot in anger? ..”

    The “incredibly well trained and professional army” has victoriously fired many “a shot in anger” in Iraq – not to mention the rapes, torture, mutilations, wanton slaughter and mass social dislocation OF MOSTLY INNOCENT civilians.

    Why the anger? Is it because those Iraqi kids and their mothers who are shot have weapons of mass destruction that make the “incredibly well trained and professional army” angry?
    [Now, if a foreigner did the same to us and our own .. War crimes trial for the likes of Bush, Blair, Cheney, Rumsfeld..? Is it a crime to protect or to provide succor and comfort to a suspected war criminal? We insist that it is if Africans do it - we drag them kicking and screaming to the ICC. Say "hypocrite". ]

    In addition to my previous comment ..

  • rdw56

    The New Deal did not work as economics. It did nothing to end the depression. There were fewer private sector jobs in 1938 than in 1929. It delayed the end of the Depression. The depression was ended by WWII, during the preparations for which FDR WALKED AWAY from the New Deal.

  • slofiredon

    I’ve designed a new Halloween costume…its a three headed bag of stink that never, ever stops flapping its dour inflated lips!! The three heads are Rushie, Dickie, and Glennie and this slimy monster is called a…. CRETINOID!!

  • rdw56

    “We have” suggests that we cannot escape culpability for their actions too …”

    We would not dream of it. They are the embodiment of American Exceptionalism. They are why we are a great nation. It’s fun to hear oxymorons like “American Imperialism” and have soldiers like Colin Powell point out the difference between American imperialism and the type of imperialism practiced by virtually every other nation or civilization. It’s the sort of imperialism that you take land only when you’ve helped the locals establish liberty and freedom and the land you take is to bury our dead who paid for that liberty with their blood.

    No nation in the history of civilization can approach the goodness and greatness of the USA. It’s why I have a 30″ flagpole in front of my house as does virtually everyone else in my development. It’s a great feeling to be part of something so great.

  • rdw56

    “I’ve designed a new Halloween costume”

    You really need to rachet it back or you’ll go nuts. Rush makes $40M a year, Beck $25M a year and Cheney makes whatever he wants to make. All three feed off the opposition. The more you talk about them the more they gain. You’ve allowed them inside your head and so has your President. No one is happier about the war on Fox than Beck, Hannity and the Stockholders.

    It’s way too early for Obama to start doing Nixon imitations. The longer he’s in office the more material they’ll have. He will drive himself crazy and look the fool.

  • rdw56

    “War crimes trial for the likes of Bush, Blair, Cheney, Rumsfeld..? ”

    History has proven what the liberal press says about a President is meaningless. Truman, Eisenhower and Reagan were all mocked by the MSM and all are now ranked among the top10 Presidents. Reagan received the identical treatment as Bush and it’s widely agreed Reagan was the best President since Ike if not FDR.

    The clowns pretending there will be war crimes have no power or influence. The UN is a joke. The now infamous Goldstone report on the Gazan war is getting trashed by everyone including Goldstone. Everyone except liberals. Joe still embraces J street. J Street is a pathetic imitation of a lobbying group. They’re supposed to support Israel ‘from the left’. When did the left ever support Israel?

  • rdw56

    Regarding the professional army

    How ironic is it that the all volunteer army was built from the ashes of Vietnam as a way to end the draft and was hoped by liberals to wither away due to a lack of support. Instead we have the finest war machine in the history of civilization. The Romans were not as dominant. Consider the fact it is the only institution that always scores above 50% in terms of admiration (Gallup) and gets near 70%. No institution comes close to the armed forced in the minds of Americans. The Congress and the Press score below 20%. Consider also the fact they produce so many heroes and men like David Petraeus. Make that Dr, David Petraeus. Master degrees and Phd are common among officers. John Kerry some time ago was humiliated and scorned after stating at a school, “Study Up or you’ll end up in Iraq.” John was obviously expressing liberal conventional wisdom. Our troops don’t get the best and the brightest and are somewhat below average. The pushback was so sharp it ended any thoughs John had off running in 2008 and the sentiment was proven wrong. The military is able to recruit and develop exceptional talent. What the MSM did to portray the Vietnam Vet as a loser was and remains dispicable. It won’t happen again and partially explains why the polls for the MSM are in the toilet.

    It was also a joy to watch the inept attempts to get war protests going on various campuses. They weren’t just failures they were pathetic. The greybeards badly outnumbered students and they almost certainly were trying to recapture former glory that was a figment of their silly minds. It’s the classic case of legends in their own minds. Very few of the greybeard protestors were ever at a protest. The 60′s protests were greatly exaggerated. Moreover when they happened they were counter-productive. The most famous protests in Chicago managed to get Nixon elected and extended the war another 7 years, They were saps.

  • rdw56

    Who is screaming? Who is even complaining?

    Pointing out the French military is a fraction they size of our own and substantially less capable isn’t complaining. It’s pointing out the obvious. We are several generations advanced beyond the French by virture of investing 25x’s as much and the ability to do real time testing.

    Any army, any business, any anything hones it’s skills by using them. Few French soldiers have ever fired a shot in anger. I’ve been clear. That doesn’t make them bad soldiers. They’re certainly not cowards. It means they are grossly inexperienced compared to US soldiers. It means if the French were to add a platoon or some goup to a larger US unit they would absolutely, positively slow them down. That’s even excepting the language barrier.

    In Afghanistan the French and Germans have refused to serve in the most dangerous regions. The Brits and Canadians have been spectacular punching well above their weight as they always do.

    We do agree the French are the least of our problems in Afghanistan. The problem is Obama’s dithering.

  • rdw56

    Unemployment in 1938 was 20%. FDR never resolved the Great Depression. WWII ended the Great Depression.

  • rdw56

    UNemployment will still be very high, well above when he took offce. The WH even admitted this Friday the impact of the stimulus is over. We’re going to have positive GDP growth but only because the base is so low. There’s not going be be enough growth to generate net hiring for at least another 6 months and then for at least another 18 hiring will be weak. We he runs in 2012 employment will be lower than when he ran in 2008.

  • rdw56

    The New Deal was a fraud as economic policy. Unemployment was 20% in 1938 and FDR abandoned it. WWII ended the depression.

    Interestingly Obama pitched the idea of a global new real early in his administraton. Angela Merkel trashed it immediately and the idea died.

    If you want to identify the democratic President most successful as an economic manager it’s not hard. Look at the 1st supply-sider, JFK. It’s a delicious irony Reagan gets so much credit for the post-82 boom for his supply-side policies. Liberals are paralyzed. They don’t like the fact JFK cut taxes and it was so sucessful. Teddy was fighting mad when GWB used JFK as the shining example. Actually I think GWB used JFK because he hoped Teddy would have a heart attack.

    Sorry chum. The New Deal wasn’t socialism but it was Big Govt and we all know you can’t bribe your way to a strong economy. You need the private sector not Murtha’s or Rangels or Jeffersons or any of the other theives.

  • adajam

    The success or failure of the surge is still being debated. Initially, the surge proved effective, but violence has escalated in the past months. Yesterday’s bombing proves that instability is still rampant in Baghdad.
    .
    “The midmorning explosions, in a closely guarded area packed with government buildings, served as a fresh reminder that although U.S. attention has shifted in large part to Afghanistan, Iraq remains a highly volatile place. Some fear it could disintegrate into chaos again even before U.S. forces finish their planned departure.” (The LA Times, October 25, 2009).
    .
    Iraqis interviewed at the scene expressed concern about the security of the area. Iraqi security forces are yet to be fully trained, as was one of the goals of the surge.
    .
    After the August 19 blasts, Maliki acknowledged in a statement: “the bombings exposed deficiencies in Iraqi security forces.” (LA Times, August 20)
    .
    The goals of stabilizing Iraq’s political future are and were a fallacy. The tribal lords have been fighting among themselves for hundreds of years, and no US and/or coalition forces’ intervention will ever change that. Their conflict is based on power over oil revenue on their land, and none of them will ever give that up. The Sunnis prospered under Saddam Hussein, but they cannot hope to prosper under a democratic Iraq, which is dominated by a Shiite majority. There is no amount of surge, US or any other country’s, that can solve this impasse. This is an Iraqi issue, and the Iraqis, and the Iraqis alone, need to solve it.
    .
    The Center for Strategic and International Studies explains the difference between a surge in Iraq and a surge in Afghanistan. It is a good read, if you care to learn how it is prudent to get all the facts before this decision is made. Saying that Obama is “dithering” is easy. Sending 40,000 troops and putting them in harms way before considering all the logistics and seeing all the ramifications, will be foolish and irresponsible. Here is the link to that article:
    .
    http://csis.org/publication/iraq-versus-afghanistan-surge-not-surge-not-surge

  • rdw56

    Wars kill mostly innocents only when one side insists on it. Islam terror is dedicated to killing innocents. They seek it. One must fight the enemy they have. The US, NATO and Israel all do everything they can to minimize casualties. When Hamas fires rockets into Israel they target schools.

    When the infatada was going on Palestinian suicide bombers would target school buses and little girls in malls. That’s why the fence is a permanent fixture. The last war in Gaza resulted in a 150 to 1 kill rate of Islamic militants to Israeli soldiers. No doubt Hamas will repeat their errors and the next time the kill rate will be 200 to 1 and the next time Fatah will follow after Israel. That won’t be good for civilians.

  • rdw56

    Why would I burst an aorta? I think the Germans and French doing the crossing guard thing IS good. You don’t want inexperienced troops among professional troops because that drag down total competence and are a net danger. George Patton had a great line during WWII. “I’d rather have a German division in front of me than a French division behind me”.

  • rdw56

    “The success or failure of the surge is still being debated.”

    No it isn’t. The surge was an unqualified success and one of the greatest strategic victories in history. It was a stunning victory and it started working almost immediately. This was domination.

    We are no longer surging in Iraq. We have in fact pulled out of many cities at Maliki’s request allowing the Iraqi’s Army to take full control. All of the ‘extra’ troops have pulled out and more. Troop levels are the lowest of the last five years.

    The current violence is related to local religious and ethnic rivalries ahead of national elections. We will pull out of Iraq on the schedule negotiated by GWB unless Obama decides to negotiate a permanent base or pulls our early. The Iraqi Army is capable.

  • rdw56

    “Sending 40,000 troops and putting them in harms way before considering all the logistics and seeing all the ramifications, will be foolish and irresponsible”

    That’s why we have Generals. McChrystal submitted his proposal 2 months ago. His propsoals accounts for the logistics and the ramifications. Obama has been golfing 12 times. He is absolutely dithering.

    It’s fair for Obama to take into account political considerations that McChrystal can’t and should not. I am not being cynical. Politics are a fact of life and matter. That said Obama has been dithering publically for no apparent reason in full view of the troops and other governments. It would be one thing if he gave up his golf game and was meeting with his security and defense staffs daily but he isn’t.

    The marines have already has some success in Afghanistan in Helman (sic) province following the tactics designed by McChrystal. We all know the quality of Petraeus and McChrystal. To think for one second Obama, Biden and Kerry could possibly have anything to add to the strategic/tactic plan is preposterous. As far as Afghanistan and Iraq being different, duh. Name anyone in a better posiiton to know that than McChrystal or Petraeus.

    BTW: Obama didn’t start two months ago. He was full briefed on the strategic plan he adopted in March right after he was elected in November. He fired the commander in Afghanistan and replaced him with McChrystal and committed more troops then. There is no reason for this delay. He is dithering.

  • freeinpa

    SAY IT AIN’T SO JOE

    Biden’s average favorable rating during his time in office so far is 45 percent — well below the average 65 percent favorable rating for Vice President Dick Cheney during Cheney’s first year in office. Vice President Al Gore’s favorable rating during his first year, 55 percent, was also higher than Biden’s. (Gallup did not measure vice presidential popularity before Gore.)

  • rdw56

    When John Roberts was to be questioned by the Senate judiciary committee Joe was the minority leader and had 1st crack. The 1st round is 15 minutes. That gasbag ran his mouth for 15 minutes not asking a single question, Arlen Spector warned him 4 times to ask a question before his time was up and Arlen put him out of his misery by interrupting Joe at the end, “Sorry John, that you ddn’t have a chance to say anything”. By the end of the questioning Joe was telling the press they had to find another way to hold these hearings because they were not working. Even his pals in the press were laughing at him. Joe Biden is a gasbag.

  • jymallyn

    As the lower half of “Dumb and Dumber” Cheney is “too smart” and too full of himself for his own good. I am looking forward to Cheney’s forthcoming book “Lies and Deceptions” because it will document that he not only committed War Crimes as defined by The Hague, but War Crimes as defined by the US Constitution. Cheney’s supporters are Zombies who fail to realize that the Boob-Chummy-Rumsnuts trio is about 80% responsible for the messes that Obama and Biden are trying to clean up.

    Where were those Zombies who are criticizing Obama’s efforts to “solve” the war in Afghanistan when they were cheering and believing the lies told by Boob-Chummy-Rumsnuts about why we absolutely HAD to go to war against Iraq?

    The Zombies complaining about Obama also fail to realize that it was the friends of Boob-Chummy-Rumsnuts that GOT us into our financial mess in the first place.

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