The Obamas Go to Church

Is there an emoticon for vomiting?

“It only becomes a Church Watch if they make it one.”
.
Interesting. Amy the media are just innocent bystanders.

I don’t get it. I’m a liberal/progressive regular church going suburban mom. I should be right in your demographic, Amy, but your posts really do make me angry. I have to second jcapan’s emotion and echo gysgts213′s attention to the messenger.

Just give the Obama family a break. Let it go. Is nothing sacred? Is nothing private? This is just like the smoking thing: Let. It. Go.

How about covering the real issues Jesus cared about like poverty and justice? At least that is politically relevant.

[...] This kind of thing makes me want to puke: [...]

Do you really have nothing better to do than this, Amy? Get a life.

This post basically comes down to, “if only the Obamas would hurry up and make a personal decision about which church they will attend on reporters’ time schedule, the media could stop reporting stories about their attendance at church services.” Please, grow up.

Yes, I’m sure the White House did “insist” that they are still looking for a church . . . because, they are still looking for a church. And how is it “surprising” that the Obamas continue to “insist” that they haven’t decided on a church? It takes some people years to settle on a church; are the Obamas somehow exempted from the experience that everyone else has when deciding where to worship?

I really can’t believe you get paid for crap like this.

Beth, my scorn is broader than this vast charade of public piety. Who or how the Obama family worships is, of course, none of our f’ing business. They could paint a freakin’ pentagram on the oval office tiles and sacrifice a hog and I’d still feel that way. The same should be true when an agnostic/atheist/jew/muslim runs for office. It is, however, apparently shocking for someone like Amy or her christian-pandering bosses to consider such a thing. She is the equivalent of a the Japanese character on Heroes (to ramp up viewership/proceeds in Asia, where it’s on). That’s what our media amts. to, marketing ploys.
.
Furthermore, in our quilt of faiths, inlcuding secularist/spiritualist/philosophical buddhists like me, Amy’s role here (Time’s fault more than her own) is inherently exclusive. 300 million Americans–are all of them Christians. If this was her own blog, it’d be fine and dandy, but the fact that the leading news-mag. feels an obligation to have a christian voice is highly disturbing.
.
That said, your closing lines, “How about covering the real issues Jesus cared about like poverty and justice? At least that is politically relevant,” would at least make her role less cringe-worthy. Her work, from start to finish here, as never strayed for even a moment beyond the superficial.

Stupid question: Didn’t Amy already do this post? Is she just recycling for the weekend folks?

NOBODY. CARES. ABOUT. THIS.

Amy, what the heck is wrong with you?

This is undoubtedly the stupidest, most mind-numbingly insipid post on the most ridiculous subject I have seen lately. IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. Whether they go to church or not simply is not germane to anything.

The demise of Time Magazine just accelerated 20% based solely on the quantity of stoopid in this post alone, thank Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Amy Sullivavn:

It has also been three and a half months since the White House insisted that the First Family continues to look for a church in Washington to join.

So the “White House” is directing President Obama where/how to personally worship?
.
How does that work, exactly? Who is the Commander-in-Chief’s church-boss? Who’s job is it in the White House to tell the President what to do on Sundays?
.
How do you know this information with complete certainty, Amy Sullivan?
.
Please provide at least two named sources and quotes.

Hooray! It’s unamaminimous.

Why is this important?

Sorry to add to the pile on, but does anyone really give a crap about this? Can’t you find something more worthwhile to write about? This has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with petty, small-minded gossip that may give you and your fellow DC hacks little tingles, but leaves the rest of us supremely disinterested.

The reason I’m being so unpleasant along with the others is that we are trying to toilet train you. When you stop writing stupid gossipy crap like this, we’ll stop being nasty. Deal?

Jesus thinks you’re boring.

She is the equivalent of a the Japanese character on Heroes (to ramp up viewership/proceeds in Asia, where it’s on).
.
jcapan, I completely agree about Heroes and I’ve never heard anyone else say that. It’s so frustrating too because Masi Oka and James Kyson Lee (Hiro and Ando) are good actors. I’d add they also serve as comic relief in a “look at those funny but harmless foreign people” way.
.
And that TV digression was more relevant to politics than this post.

Wow, who could have imagined what a dust-up Amy Sullivan’s post would have caused? I sure didn’t until I started reading the comments. I don’t get it – why all the anger over this post? Amy Sullivan’s beat is religion. The previous church of which the Obamas’ were members made a bit of news during the campaign, so it seems to me the next choice might be of some interest to some people (e.g. why did all the people with the angry comments read the post if it was so non-newsworthy?). Just the human interest angle of seeing how a church is affected by the First Family joining is mildly interesting.

Poverty & justice are covered a lot in many news outlets but as I understand it people on average don’t find these articles as interesting as, for instance, the cause of Michael Jackson’s death, Tom Delay on Dancing with the Stars, or who won American Idol. Even NPR has to cover news that people want to hear to stay in business. Hence articles about how the media blew covering the financial meltdown (justice denied) is immeasurably more compelling than all the articles that did cover it (which was boring financial news). Again, I can’t imagine what was to get so angry about in this post.

Poverty and justice are not, in fact, covered “a lot” or even very much in any news outlet.

Even if they were, that would not be an excuse to concern troll an issue as stupid as this one.

“Amy Sullivan’s beat is religion.”

That doesn’t mean it is her job to harass politicians about where they go to church. Do food writers spend all their time figuring out what politicians are eating? Do health reporters give us weekly updates on politicians’ cholesterol numbers?

OK, old-versions-Bible gal, let us start from the beginning:
Why is it obvious that the Obamas need a church – or that they must go to church? And on a Sunday?

[Look at it this way: Suppose they skip church one Sunday ... OK, I retract that.]

It’s a shame politicians have to submit to this charade just because the tut-tutting DC guardians of morality demand it.

I don’t really believe that anyone outside DC gives a sh*t where or whether Obama goes to church…except of course for those people who didn’t and won’t vote for him anyway.

vat is?

” .. Amy Sullivan’s beat is religion. .. ”

OK.

When is she going to get around to recognizing the ” agnostic, atheist, jew, muslim” and the “secularist, spiritualist, philosophical buddhists” and the wiccans and voodoo guys too …

Be a pall, Amy ..

—- ahem
The way things are going right now, an assumption can be made that Americans prefer or tolerate, eh, homosexuality than polygamy ….

But there is rampant polygamy in (the old versions of) that bible. What is going to feature in the brand new conservative version?

And Adam and Justin begat Jane MaryLou and Tomweka …

“Is nothing sacred?”
.
Yo

I think I have a new favorite word.

Maybe the implication is that the search is taking so long because finding a church that is really a Mosque is proving difficult.

Justice:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/05/us/politics/05scotus-side.html?scp=6&sq=supreme%20court&st=cse

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/23/us/politics/23secrets.html?scp=3&sq=justice&st=cse

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/opinion/13sun1.html?scp=5&sq=justice&st=cse

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/17/opinion/17goldstone.html?scp=7&sq=justice&st=cse

poverty:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/11/AR2009101101582.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/us/11poverty.html?scp=5&sq=poverty&st=cse

OK, so maybe that is not “a lot”, but it is covered – how about “somewhat frequently”?

What the Presidents eat, their chefs, their state dinners to their casual dining, as well as their eating habits is often covered. I recall reading about Gerald Ford’s breakfast preferences when he was in office.

The Presidents’ physicals, their skin cancer surgery, choking on pretzels, torn ligaments, and their weight are also covered regularly. I don’t believe I have ever read the specific cholesterol numbers, but I do recall it being reported as high/normal/low after their annual physicals.

Oh dear. I’m sorry you went to all that trouble to be so unpersuasive.
.
To the extent that “poverty” gets coverage, the dominant theme is “what’s the matter with all these poor people and why are they demanding things?” To the extent that “justice” get covered the prevailing themes are “What if Cheney’s right?” and “Poor Roman Polanski.”
.
Sorry, but even if our media took the issues of poverty and justice seriously, it would not excuse Amy Sullivan clucking like your annoying grandmother about “did you go to mass today? WHAT WAS THE GOSPEL ABOUT??”

Rose, I’ve still not managed to watch Heroes, but then I don’t watch any shows. I recall when Lost first started, during my interlude stateside–I was so excited to see Asian characters, both the Iraqi guy and the Korean couple, and the fact that the producers were unafraid to show them actually speaking a foreign language. That was shocking, particularly in light of American filmgoer’s aversion to subtitles.
.
I’m not taking away from these actors’ contributions to either show, but over the years, I’ve realized it’s not merely H-wood’s multicultural conscience at work here. As with Danny Glover or Eddie Murphy’s wingmen to white cops back in the day, this was a very savvy move on the part of LA suits, but I don’t think it’s Asian or Arab Americans they’re targeting.
.
I see this a lot more now vs. my first stay in Japan, when the only drama you’d find on here was vintage BH 90210. I don’t watch any of it, but you name the US drama on there and it’s on here too. You’d get a kick of how they market them–it’s nothing short of carpetbombing. And, sadly, this CA tripe is kicking J-TV’s arse. Surf around and it’s CSI, Gossip Girl et al. The impact this will have in places like Asia, where gender roles are quite different, is hard to say–but it’s hard to imagine it’ll be positive.

I’m getting a chuckle out of your posts. Amy never responds to us so it’s a little on the futile side to expect a response. I tried for months to provoke her but never got anywhere. I doubt if she even reads her threads after she posts them.
.
Amy, your semi-faithful servant. sacredh

” .. I doubt if she even reads her threads after she posts them.”
Could it be that she views the posts as necessary rite, an ablution, perhaps?

Ah, Pastor Amy Pastrami, everyone’s least favorite denomination-hopper, just can’t quit her two-story world of prurient moral scolding. Only a restraining order will save her.

Hey Committee, fabulous posts here. I couldn’t say it any better.

But I will ask Amy: I gottanutha topic for you: how does one reconcile the teachings of Christ with the coaching to always “cover the controversy?”

Hint: maybe you should try covering the conflict between Christ’s teachings and the military-industrial complex, or between the function and income of I-Bankers and the welfare and labor of the common person.

Where you are right now is some weird cross between Drudge/Harris/Halperin and The Church Lady. It ain’t interesting and it ain’t pretty.

Sacredh, that is the subtext of Amy’s post. The longer it takes for the President to find a Church, the stronger is the belief that he is Muslim.

I suppose it might be important to the evangelicals or to the nutters, but most of wouldn’t give a rat’s ass if President Obama was Muslim, Christian or worshipped the moon. I do enjoy Amy’s gossipy style though. It’s kind of fun in a “yeah, this has been eating me alive…let’s play yahtzee” way.

It’s probably in her contract. I’m inclined to believe that her not responding is somehow related to the Purity Ball stuff and abstinence. I get cranky if I go without for a couple of days. I can’t even imagine what going years would do to me. I saved myself for just the right woman. She was alive.

The best thing about Swampland is that so many of the commenters are so much smarter & so much more thoughtful than the MSM flaks who get paid to post here. What’s even more encouraging is that many of the commenters write from what reads like the perspective of youth, which suggests to me that the future of the country is much brighter than one would expect if he bought all of his reading material at the newsstand. Keep at it, kids, you fill me with hope. Seriously.

The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com

P.S. The best part about the President’s inaugural address: “We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus, and nonbelievers.” He’s the first President to advocate for my faith, which falls right there in that last category.

In Ms. Sullivan’s post she was not “clucking” about whether the Obamas went to church. The post was about them choosing a church.

The gospel was about turning the other cheek, and love thy neighbor as yourself, not angry, rude flaming about a rather innocuous blog post.

There are many good papers and periodicals that cover stories like habeus corpus rights of detainees, torture and what the Justice Dept is going to do about it, increasing poverty in this recession, issues concerning sub-prime borrowers – victims or irresponsible, should they be helped or made to pay for their mistakes, people working multiple jobs to make ends meet and still not making it, people bankrupted by uninsured medical problems, loosening the bankruptcy laws because of the current recession. Yes, many trivial issues are covered in today’s media because many people are interested in them (the media needs to make a living too) but there are substantive issues of justice and poverty covered everyday.

” .. many of the commenters write from… the perspective of youth, which suggests to me that the future of the country is much brighter ..”
Eh.
Maybe not.

You are not trying to be politically incorrect are you?
What is wrong if many commenters here are afflicted by ‘stunted growth’ syndrome?

“” .. nonbelievers.” He’s the first President to advocate for my faith, which falls right there in that last category. ..”

Gee. Believers need faith. Do nonbelievers need or have ‘faith’ too?

” .. The gospel was about turning the other cheek .”

Yikes!

And then?
I mean, after we turn both – or all of them – then is that when we get to sock them with the left and the right and the drones and the stealth ‘shock and awe’ and the storm troopers and .. right?

pdzxc:
.
Lost in your righteous rant is the very important notion that Jesus can suck it.

As an antidote to AS, perhaps a wee bit of The Devil’s Dictonary? Add alcohol and stir:

RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable.

FAITH, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.

“Hurry up and pick a church so I can find something upsetting/shocking about your choice”

sacredh, Bravo!!

Ah, Pnnto has likely found the reason for the second post on this topic.
.
Some have asked why the universal disdain for this post of Amy’s and I think we were a little impatient the first time, but the re-run is too much.

Response to cfukara: (a) I find it really difficult to believe that anyone would find it “politically incorrect” for us old geezers to recognize that later generations have the potential to greatly improve upon our own efforts at perfecting what came before. (b) Yes, nonbelievers do have faith; we have faith in ourselves &, as a mildly perceptive person would recognize, in those who come after us. Good luck.

The Constant Weader

I’m going to skip the pile on and just ascribe myself to the first comment – if you’re going to keep up the church watch we should get the vomit emoticon.

But seriously, one day, I wish you’d write out a post explaining why the hell it’s the media’s role to institute a “church watch” and what you’re goal is in harping on the religiosity of politicos.

Why does it matter what house of superstition the president attends?

We atheists have no representation in government, it’s a travesty.

Yeah, good point, that has to be what’s going on here. Or, “Hurry up and pick a church, so I can fret over how hypothetical people might be upset/shocked about it.”

The intersection of religion and politics could be a fascinating beat. What a waste for it to fall to this predictable, valueless centrism.

“In Ms. Sullivan’s post she was not “clucking” about whether the Obamas went to church. The post was about them choosing a church.”

Take your act to Free Republic.

In a nutshell I don’t think it’s pile on to acknowledge that the motive here is indicative of what is driving the press on everything from their declaration of inevitability for President Hillary Clinton to their declaration of Obama’s failed presidency premature consolation Nobel prize. The media has failed spectacularly in their watchdog role so as Amy has shown here they’ve settled for just watching and occasionally trying to predict the outcome. However, the trouble with taking your political cues from SNL instead of employing real analysis, your predictions tend to be wrong, as they’ve consistently been since 2000.
.
Of course, even in their more neutered role as just watchers they seem to be having a devil of a time being right about anything or when it comes to the Nobel prize to even be aware of anything. So now they’ve latched on to the role of finger pointers and its all about attacking Obama on something, anything in hopes to distract us from the fact that they’ve got nothing. Hey it works for the GOP!
.
So far they have been able to conflate a number of issues that have festered over the last eight years, including the failure to track people with foreign visas and the failure in Afghanistan with Obama’s presidency as if these mega failures were somehow his doing and not theirs. They don’t want to take any responsibility for their failures to uncover the truth, to be sidetracked by frivolity rather than focus on the meaningful matters that could have revealed the truth and provided the tools to help avert these disasters or at least alerted us to the pending debacles.
.
The media has morphed into a joke and instead of it spurring reflection and metamorphosis, they have chosen to stick their head in the sand, putting their butts in the air and inviting us all to kiss them. They’ve decided to mimic the GOP, doubling down on the very traits that have turned off their reader and further marginalizing their national reach until their only audience is each other.

I got home from work last night after midnight and there was that little gift all wrapped up and just waiting for me.

It was nice to get a shout-out from Barak. I’m in the old geezer category too. I think there is only one admitted atheist in House. I have a feeling that the number of agnostics/atheists in Congress is really higher than the national average but admitting to it would be a political kiss of death.
.
If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you do it a second time, do we not beat the sh!t out of you?

The “white house” IS Obama. HE IS the sitting president and as such HE alone controls the White House. Same as it has been since the beginning of the presidency. Who else do you think controls the White House message? Gibbs? Rohm? WHo?

hmmmmm, I took the subtext to mean Obama is having a hard time making yet another decision. You know, like when to close GITMO, when to stop “don’t ask don’t tell”, etc……. I suppose you would have to not dring from the Reps or Dems kool-aid to get that, though.

ROFL. YOU have no representation? You are a PERSON, aren’t you? There ARE people representing your district, aren’t there? Hence, you have representation. Catholics don’t only represent the Catholics in their district and Muslims don’t only represent the Muslims in their district. Please avoid asinine statements in the future. You want to talk about no representation……I formerly lived in Cynthia McKinney’s district (white male). I made several calls to her trying to discuss issues with her. She NEVER returned any calls. As an experiment, I had a black friend of mine call her giving my name and phone number as contact numbers when raising the same issues I had raised before. Surprise, surprise, she DID call back then. So, unless you are willing to tackle no representation in this form, don’t raise your asinine no representation argument.

My God, you are delusional. Them media has been in B.O.’s backpocket worse than for any president that preceded him. If they are doing anything, it’s what the Dems are doing. i.e. “if my guy is doing it, it is a good thing no matter what he is doing. if the other side is doing it, it is inherently bad no matter what it is.”

@xxception: you amuse me.

Thank you for this link. These definitions express in a few words what I have been shouting for years.

Let’s not forget the pro-jec-tion going on here. Pastor Amy goes through denominations like teenagers through pop-star crushes, and she’s aching to see if the Obamas spin the Wheel of Jesus and choose something that either validates or contradicts her own “spiritual journey”, i.e. her inability to sit on the same pew for more than three weeks.

For all the liberals here let’s take a quick trip back in history. It was Obama who made Rev Wright and his church a mainstay of his early campaign, that is until Obama figured out he was a nut job. It was not the media or conservative but the “Audacity of Hope”.

And do any of the liberals find it somewhat amusing that despite teir prior protests, that it tool Obama 6 months to pick a dog, over 3 months to find a church but only 9 days to “win” the Nobel Prize?

” .. As an experiment, I had a black friend of mine call her ..”

Lets see …

Thousands and thousands of calls to elected officials everyday. Most of them unanswered, of course.
[Damm that white guy screening the calls, eh!]

One experiment one lucky call and aha! I see a trend!

Yeah. Some people have it all. Like my colleague at work who wins $1,000 and $100 at the lottery every now and then. Suspicious. Gosh! I buy them at the same store and for years never got a whiff of any winnings!
Well. Maybe a $10 once.

Conclusion? [Not quite as racist as yours: It is about time. I waited long enough. My ship is about to come in ... big time ... So I buy more tickets .. ]

Easy on the good pastor.

Maybe Pastor Amy is an equal opportunity worshiper – of religiosity …

[And in due course, she will get a prayer mat and a compass direction to the Kaaba ...]

” .. And do any of the liberals find it somewhat amusing ..”

Nope.

Do you?

cfukara

Proving once again liberal intelligence is a myth

Mhh.
The Limbaughs and Becks do not speak well for ‘conservative intelligence’.
And they are loud.

We can’t see it, we can’t touch it. We can’t smell it. We may argue that we can hear it ( – much like the so called “still inner voice”..)

We think we can probe “intelligence” and establish its existence with tests and conjectures (and pass judgment, at times with faulty data, on who has more of it than others) – just like some creeps would probe the existence of “god” with ‘faith’ and conjectures (and pass judgment regarding what religion has IT – or more of IT – than the others..)

Would you say that “intelligence” is as much of a myth as the dieties/religion?

In a “thank God he’s not my neighbor” kind of way? Or in a “I’m going to be reading his name in the paper eventually” kind of way? Or in a “I wonder who that is strapped to a gurney while the neighbors stand out in the driveway shaking their heads and telling the television people that they never suspected” kind of way?

” .. Why does it matter what house of superstition the president attends? ..”

It matters. Big time. Association/membership matters. Access matters.
1) It matters to me: My superstition or no way. And neutrality is not an option. [Why don't you like my superstition anyway? Are you dissing me? Mh? Mhh?]

2) It matters of the Vatican: A penny here, a penny there => Millions of dollars every year into the Vatican coffers from those aged diseased frightened, heaven-bound grannies from all over the world. And the Vatican prospers as one of the world’s leading institutional investors.
Oh, it matters to the successful evangelists – who employ armies of people to count the cash pouring in every day …]

3) It matters to Israel – in billions of dollars pouring every year into that wasteland from the USA, EU and Africa – to maintain work-averse, war-mongering creeps in cozy circumstances. [Imagine USA as a predominantly Buddhist, aryan supremacist or Muslim country. Then how many pennies a year would those flea-bitten, nasty war-mongering, land-grabbing, supremacist jewish squatters be getting from us gentiles?
Would they still count on us to cover their asses each time they embark on their murderous adventurism?

And they will have to present a justification - in writing and in triplicate - for each penny they beg from us!]

Aha. Money. Money. Power.

xxception, is it possible that your use of CAPS and “ROFL” led McKinney to think you were a 12 year old and thus not yet a voter?

constantweader:
a) recognize that later generations have the potential ..
Suppose it turns out that those you thought were the younger generation are actually the elders, the pillars of the society? Any hope for the future then?
b) ” .. nonbelievers do have faith .. “
Yet many a nonbeliever often stigmatize the believer for embracing their myth (especially with regard to a “god” and the hereafter) based on ‘blind’ “faith” – and not on any empirical evidence.

Is it also OK for a believer to have ‘faith’?

cfukara

“And do any of the liberals find it somewhat amusing ..”

Nope.

Do you?”

Nice misdirection but it was you who responded to the question not Beck or Limbaugh.

destor….go the insult route if you want, but I don’t see how anyone sees capital letters in a phone call. this rep was known for staying in touch with her constitutents…..as long as you agreed with her. was sooooo glad when I could afford to move out of her district.

OK, look at pew research center’s study on positive and negative news stories on the CNN and FOX during the last election. Fox had about equal, 41% if I’m remembering correctly, portion of negative coverage of Obama and McCain. CNN on the other hand had 22% MORE negative stories on McCain than they did on Obama. So, that makes Fox biased and CNN a “real” news network?

Let us misdirect no more.

Would you support an assertion that Rush Limbaugh’s and Glenn Beck’s, Michael Steele’s antics and pronouncements represent – or present a glimpse into – the best of “conservative intelligence”?

And it came to pass that BillieJean and Martina begat Ellen, Jodie, Gabriela and Amelie …

Ah. An American bible.

Amy,

In the article it was stated, “The Obamas shook hands with those around them as the parishioners were told to show each other a sign of peace. The worshippers prayed for all people, including ‘Barack, our president, the leaders of Congress, the Supreme Court and all who are in authority.’” It is nice to know that the Episcopal servce was followed. I, in SC, passed the peace with those around me and prayed for our President and for the Governor of SC, as well as some local officials.

The reference was not required.

Amy,

Maybe President Obama was just doing some research:

“And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.”

Matthew, 6: 5

It has always been my favourite verse from my favourite book of the New Testament.

Church

Watch?

Indeed.

And lest it escape attention that just because there are perfectly valid Christian reasons for them not to “choose a local church as their main place of worship”, the main point remains:

It is not a church watch because they made it one, it is a church watch because a press obsessed with public display of religiosity makes it one.

It is bad enough that the US press demands that politicians embrace religion. You do realize that this doesn’t happen in other First World democratic societies. The French or Germans or British or Canadians or New Zealanders or Swiss or Czech or whoever would think you were nuts if you demanded that all politicians publicly embraced an organized delusion.

This is interesting, I wonder what I would do about churches if I had to be president someday. It would be quite sad having to leave my current one because of disruptions my position would bring.

[...] this reporter from Time (hardly anti-Obama) observed: The Obama family attended services at St. John’s Episcopal this [...]