Latest Lie: “Death Panels By Proxy”

There they go again. Now that the “death panel” lie has snookered nearly half the country, the Washington Times is going for the other half in an editorial headlined “Death Panels By Proxy.” Cue the scary music for this one:

The offending provision is on Pages 80-81 of the unamended Baucus bill, hidden amid a lot of similar legislative mumbo-jumbo about Medicare payments to doctors. The key sentence: “Beginning in 2015, payment would be reduced by five percent if an aggregation of the physician’s resource use is at or above the 90th percentile of national utilization.” Translated into plain English, it means that in any year in which a particular doctor’s average per-patient Medicare costs are in the top 10 percent in the nation, the feds will cut the doctor’s payments by 5 percent.

Forget results. This provision makes no account for the results of care, its quality or even its efficiency. It just says that if a doctor authorizes expensive care, no matter how successfully, the government will punish him by scrimping on what already is a low reimbursement rate for treating Medicare patients. The incentive, therefore, is for the doctor always to provide less care for his patients for fear of having his payments docked. And because no doctor will know who falls in the top 10 percent until year’s end, or what total average costs will break the 10 percent threshold, the pressure will be intense to withhold care, and withhold care again, and then withhold it some more. Or at least to prescribe cheaper care, no matter how much less effective, in order to avoid the penalties.

My question: Has anyone at the Washington Times actually talked to a doctor lately? Under the current system, lots and lots of people are showing up at physicians’ offices with no insurance at all. And do you know what these medical heroes are doing? By and large, they are treating them anyway. Doctors I have spoken to tell me that it is not at all unusual for them to be writing off 10%, or 20% or even more of the care they give, because their patients simply can’t afford to pay their bills.

So now, the Washington Times would like us to believe that these very same doctors will suddenly start cutting their patients off, sending them out to die, simply to earn a little more money.

Yes, this provision is designed to encourage doctors to think a little more about what kind of treatment is most effective, and to cut back on the waste and overtreatment that experts say account for 30 cents out of every dollar that is spent on medical care in this country. But to call these “death panels by proxy” is simply fear-mongering.

What’s more, the Times is wrong when it suggests the Finance Committee bill puts no focus on quality. In fact, it gives doctors incentives they don’t have now, especially in the management of the chronic illnesses that have been such a factor in driving up health costs. This from former Clinton Administration health adviser Chris Jennings (via Ezra Klein):

… I choose to focus on a couple of other diamonds in the rough. The first would be the funding for prioritization and development of quality measures linked to aggressive reimbursement incentives to physicians for reporting on these measures. (These measures, developed by health professionals, are used to promote best practices for some of the most expensive chronic diseases, such as heart disease, cancer and diabetes). I have concluded that we will never really change the way we deliver health care without the buy-in of the medical profession, which can only be secured if they develop and apply measures that can be used to empower practitioners and hold them accountable through comparative outcomes with/by their peers.

A second, and related issue, is a Finance Committee provision which gives CMS the authority to develop pilot programs to test methods of reimbursing providers for chronic disease management, (including collaborations with the states and the dual eligible program). Today, the easiest course of medical intervention is to prescribe treatment plans that deal with the effects of the disease, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, etc., rather than spending time with patients to help motivate them to take control of their health and manage their own diseases through lifestyle changes. Only when patients begin to understand that they must be the focal point of any intervention to constrain or even reverse the course of expensive chronic illness and, ultimately, produce savings, will we have made progress. The most creative part of this policy is to allow the pilots to be constructed in a fashion that waive strict budget neutrality requirements (because this has killed ideas in the past) AND allows them to expand nationally automatically (without any other legislative action) IF they can prove budget neutrality or better in the budget window. We all know that chronic illness is the primary contributor to our nation’s health-care tab – preventing and managing it is one of the absolute keys in getting the ultimate job done.

Okay, not as sexy as “death panels by proxy.” But it does have the virtue of actually being true.

MONDAY UPDATE: In this morning’s Washington Post, Lori Montgomery has an interesting story on the Medicare debate, which includes this bit of historic background:

That’s what happened after the last major assault on Medicare spending, when Clinton and a Republican Congress approved a package of cuts remarkably similar to the one now on the table. The Balanced Budget Act of 1997 was expected to save $112 billion over five years — a 9 percent reduction in projected spending on par with the 10 percent in the Baucus bill. The cuts wound up saving so much more than expected that Congress reversed some of them in 1999 and 2000, said Jon Gabel, a senior fellow at the National Opinion Research Center.

Service to seniors was largely unaffected, said Robert Berenson, a Medicare expert at the left-leaning Urban Institute who also serves on the congressional Medicare Payment Advisory Commission. “There was anguish from the hospital industry, but I don’t think anybody documented quality problems. And it dramatically added to the solvency of Medicare,” he said, extending the life of the trust fund by 15 years.

Related Topics: death panels, death panels by proxy, fear-mongering, medicare, Congress, Health Care, Senate
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  • kathy

    KT – half the country has been snookered because unlike you, most of your colleagues have either refused to, or were slow to, call the death panels a lie.

    I suppose most of this is the “lets you and him fight” approach to reporting the news, with the misguided, bizarre notion that to weigh in on this would have been subjective, and that it’s important to report both “sides.” So it’s not just half the country, it’s most of the media that were snookered.

    Reminds me of when Campbell Brown said [if one person says its cloudy and the other person says it's clear, a reporter ought to be able to look out the window and say which one is right,] or something like that.

    Thank you again for your persistence and passion about this. It must be frustrating beyond words to be only one voice among a sea of obliviousness.

  • plukasiak

    How the big lies about health care get spread…
    _
    KT writes “Yes, this provision is designed to encourage doctors to think a little more about what kind of treatment is most effective, and to cut back on the waste and overtreatment that experts say account for 30 cents out of every dollar that is spent on medical care in this country.”
    _
    Here is what KT links to to support her contention —
    _
    However, as much as 30 cents on every health care dollar is spent on unnecessary care—or “overtreatment,” in medicalspeak.
    _
    Note that no experts are cited as a source for the “30%” claim…there is no way for us to check this claim — KT’s link is, in essence, a link to nowhere.
    _
    Moreover, while KT declares unequivocally that “waste and overtreatment ….account for 30 cents out of every dollar”, even her source goes only so far as to say that it might be “as much as 30 cents”
    _
    But from now on (unless KT fixes it), health care propagandists will be able to cite Karen Tumulty from Time Magazine as the source for the fact that fully 30% of the money spent on providing health care services is unnecessary and “wasteful” expenditures.
    _
    This is what the insurance companies want you to believe — its the kind of “fact” that justifies spending 10-15% of their receipts on looking for ways to deny treatment to the insured – or to deny payment to those who have been treated.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Has anyone at the Washington Times actually talked to a doctor lately?

    You say that as if truth has any bearing whatsoever on anything. Certainly your experience here should have taught you that people will believe whatever fits with their agenda and dismiss anything that doesn’t. Telling lies, even when caught out, certainly has no long-term consequences as far as credibility or access in the future. One need only examine the current career paths of the Iraq War architects to know that lying offers nothing but rewards….

  • plukasiak

    BTW, here is an explanation of the apparent source of the MYTH of the “experts” claiming “30% waste”… http://medinnovationblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/305-waste-in-american-health-care.html
    _

    The source of this statistic is the Dartmouth Health Policy Group. In its studies over the last 36 years of regional practice variations based on Medicare data, the Group has determined high spending regions spend 30% more than low spending regions. The Group concludes high spending regions, due to overconcentration of hospitals and specialists, overuse resources by 30%. To correct the health system’s overspending, therefore, it logically follows all one has to do lower spending is to reduce costs of high spending regions to the level to low spending regions.

    _
    the blog then goes on to explain why the “30%” number is deeply flawed…
    _

    Dr. Cooper, a professor of medicine and a senior fellow at the Leonard Davis of Health Economics at the University of Pennsylvania, says the Dartmouth argument is flawed.

    - One, it relies on Medicare data, which does not represent practices of the system as a whole.

    - Two, it ignores the fact that specialist-rich areas have a higher quality of care.

    - Three, it overlooks factors such as the costs of doing business and costs of providing services to uninsured populations such as immigrants, who tend to be sicker and have higher costs of care (one of five Americans is a recent immigrant and they tend to be concentrated in certain regions).

    - Four, it skips around the reality that high spending regions tend to be in metropolitan areas with a heavy concentration of the rich and the poor, both of whom consume more in resources than middle-class Americans.

    On the latter point, Cooper notes the former confederate states, which have much higher levels of poverty and twice the concentration of blacks , have considerably higher Medicare spending than the middle west. He also observes that university towns – like Columbia, Missouri, or Madison Wisconsin – spend much less than metropolitan Los Angeles, Chicago, Miami, or New York City.

  • deconstructiva

    Thanks, KT, for swatting anothering falsehood fly ..but don’t let Sarah whatshername try to jump back on this wagon train. Also. Remember, of course, that reading the WT is like watching Fox Fake News. Fortunately, many doctors are into, like, treating people and not just making money. While aggressive marketing by drug cos. to doctors has its dark side, one benefit is allowing docs to prescribe free samples and other gaming-the-system things when we can’t pay the bills. I’ve benefited from this from past unemployment stretches (fortunately not needing this now).
    .
    On the Finance Committee, are the R’s going to stonewall on this pilot program too? Or will all their efforts focus on Tuesday’s fight over youknowwhat? KT, do you think Tues. will be a huge public (option) fight, even with protesters (even “paid” ones like the teabaggers)? Then again, could the High Sheriffs sponsor a TIME PO tailgate party? Open up the station wagon, grill some brats, have potato salad, drinks, fave dishes by you, Jay, Amy, and Kate, the works? As you can guess, I’m in a better mood than after Fri. Fiorina shoutfest, but will avoid joining the Dark Side / rant festivals and focus on “1000 words”, weekends, and lighter stuff. How do you, Jay, and especially Amy deal with the personal attacks and kicking the messenger? Thanks.

  • spob

    plukasiak, I think that the “as much as” qualifier on the 30% should mute your outrage about a “lie”. This is a blog post, and a worthy one at that. Perhaps, if she gets time, KT will link to some studies, but I think that your invective (i.e., “lie”) is over the top. Why isn’t a post just asking whether she can link to any studies sufficient?
    .
    I also think the charge that this is how insurance companies want you to think is grossly unfair. KT has provided lots of stories about the nastiness of the insurance industry.
    .
    Now your second post may be right. And those issues should be addressed. But the debate is not advanced by insinuating that someone is a liar or that she is aiding in making the public believe what the insurance companies want them to believe.
    .
    Now I punch back hard in this forum. I freely admit that. But I refrain from personal attacks where I have not been personally attacked. KT, I think, has earned people’s trust here as a straight shooter. She obviously has a point of view, and she goes out on a limb to give it to us. I don’t think that she deserves the tone of your post. Obviously, you have something intelligent to say. I wish that you would accept KT’s bona fides and engage in that manner. I suspect you may have more success persuading others to accept your views. I enjoyed reading your second post. It was informative.

  • http://michaelevan.wordpress.com michaelevan

    Thanks, Karen, for this post.

    Also, it seems obvious, but too few journalists are willing to use the word ‘lie’, even in egregious cases like this one. So thanks for that too.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    The article that KT cites and P-Luk criticizes highlights one simple fact that muddles ALL our arguments. Medicine itself is not a science. Unlike other sciences where experiments can be carefully designed and controlled, when evaluating treatment regimens on real patients doing nothing is not an option. Clinical trials always involve pitting the “latest greatest” (and most recently patented) treatment against the second latest greatest current practice. Anyone who thinks they can come in and impose ‘efficiency’ in such and environment is out of their gourd, but anyone who thinks that overtreatment isn’t a large source of waste is equally misguided. There are plenty of mechanisms where Medical cost get inflated. Blaming everything on a single source and then chastising anyone who doesn’t see the world through exactly the same eyes, is NOT the best way to proceed fixing what’s wrong.

  • spob

    PD, that’s a very thoughtful post–thank you.

  • plukasiak

    plukasiak, I think that the “as much as” qualifier on the 30% should mute your outrage about a “lie”.
    _
    uh, no it shouldn’t. In the “source” KT cited, 30% is cited as the extreme case — “as much as” means that, in all likelihood, it will be considerably less than 30%. (How many times have you heard a weather report that states that “as much as” six inches of snow is expected, but you only get an inch or two?)
    _
    Moreover, if you read what I wrote, it was about KT’s sloppiness, and how that sloppiness translates into disinformation that insurance companies want you to believe. This is another instance of KT acting as a “shill by proxy” — basically, KT is shilling for her sources in the White House and their Conservadem allies (in order to maintain access) and it is those sources that are pushing the insurance company line.
    _
    I don’t call KT a liar — i show how bad reporting translates into “big lies”. KT presents as “fact” something that is both poorly sourced and highly disputable, and that “fact” can be used by others to further the parasite agenda.

  • plukasiak

    Medicine itself is not a science. Unlike other sciences where experiments can be carefully designed and controlled, when evaluating treatment regimens on real patients doing nothing is not an option.
    _
    its almost as if PD is completely unaware of how often medical trials use placebos (i.e. “doing nothing”.)
    _

  • deconstructiva

    …yes, placebos are the controls similar to most science experiments, but I doubt PD was “completely unaware”. I don’t call KT a shill, either, but I digress.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Of course I’m aware of what placebos are and I’m also aware that many AIDS treatment studies took shortcuts because of the ethical dilemma posed by the unwillingness to deliberately withhold treatment.
    The larger point is that human’s are sufficiently complex and beset with enough unquantifiable differences between individuals that truly ‘scientific’ research is extremely difficult.

    To take things to a logical extreme, let’s assume that that there is an as-yet undiscovered cure for cancer. If such a thing were to exist it would mean that every penny currently spent on cancer treatments is wasted. Chances are good that it reporesents a pretty sizable sum of money being thrown at ineffective treatments.
    .
    There might not actually be a cheaper easier way to treat cancer but to suggest that it’s impossible and that evaluating treatment effectiveness systematically is not a good place to try and save money is to assert more than you could possibly know. It almost qualifies as a lie…..

  • textee

    Must be nice to be a Democrat. Your press releases get dutifully repeated, verbatim and without attribution, at Time, Newsweek, ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, CNN, MSDNC, ESPN, Sports Illustrated, the execrable Associated (with terrorists) Press, the New York Times-Democrat, et al. Better yet, said repeated press releases are disguised as “non-partisan,” “fact-based,” “objective” so-called “news”.

  • deconstructiva

    …and our physical differences among ourselves makes testing more difficult, especially when tracking drug side effects (let alone sloppy research or taking shortcuts). Vioxx alone is a good caution about checking for side effects / checking as many variables as possible.

  • shepherdwong

    You’re a credit to your profession, Karen.

  • ack1074

    All this conversation about the science and reporting is interesting, but it is a distraction from the real issue of the so-called “death panels”. From a purely pragmatic point of veiw the death panel issue should be a comparative non-starter. As of now, 20% of Americans (and nearly 40% of American children) are not covered by private insurance. Even for those with private insurance, costly (but potentially life-saving) procedures are denied ALL THE TIME. At least with a public program, EVERY American would have the opportunity to be denied coverage.

  • dbartenstein

    We already have “death panels”. They are called Piss-ant Insurance Company Bureaucrats whose sole purpose is to deny as much coverage as they possibly can to insure maximum profits to the shareholders. As long as the business of health-care is controlled by Wall Street you will have these “death panels”.

  • Cliff

    I’m curious to see how many people are actually going to be scared by the right putting on a scary HRC mask and saying, “FIVE PERCENT BOOGETY BOOGETY BOO!”
    .
    It’s probably going to be more people than I think.

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng

    Regarding placebos, it turns out they are becoming more effective, which rather complicates the sceince of studying drug effects: Placebos Are Getting More Effective. Drugmakers Are Desperate to Know Why.

    The upshot is fewer new medicines available to ailing patients and more financial woes for the beleaguered pharmaceutical industry. Last November, a new type of gene therapy for Parkinson’s disease, championed by the Michael J. Fox Foundation, was abruptly withdrawn from Phase II trials after unexpectedly tanking against placebo. A stem-cell startup called Osiris Therapeutics got a drubbing on Wall Street in March, when it suspended trials of its pill for Crohn’s disease, an intestinal ailment, citing an “unusually high” response to placebo. Two days later, Eli Lilly broke off testing of a much-touted new drug for schizophrenia when volunteers showed double the expected level of placebo response.

    It’s not only trials of new drugs that are crossing the futility boundary. Some products that have been on the market for decades, like Prozac, are faltering in more recent follow-up tests. In many cases, these are the compounds that, in the late ’90s, made Big Pharma more profitable than Big Oil. But if these same drugs were vetted now, the FDA might not approve some of them. Two comprehensive analyses of antidepressant trials have uncovered a dramatic increase in placebo response since the 1980s. One estimated that the so-called effect size (a measure of statistical significance) in placebo groups had nearly doubled over that time.

    It’s not that the old meds are getting weaker, drug developers say. It’s as if the placebo effect is somehow getting stronger.

    The fact that an increasing number of medications are unable to beat sugar pills has thrown the industry into crisis. The stakes could hardly be higher. In today’s economy, the fate of a long-established company can hang on the outcome of a handful of tests.

    Why are inert pills suddenly overwhelming promising new drugs and established medicines alike? The reasons are only just beginning to be understood.

  • jcapan

    “Now that the ‘death panel’ lie has snookered nearly half the country…”

    Sort of like Saddam Hussein’s responsibility for 911, isn’t it? Or that there’s a vast conspiracy amongst the world’s top scientists to perpetuate a myth called global warming? Or the one about evolution–hahaha!? All societies, all media, tell lies, but it seems exceptionally American, the way so many embrace what they want to believe, despite all evidence to the contrary. As always, the worst deceit is that which we practice on ourselves.

    When the Darwin exhibit came to Japan last year, the last item in the linear exhibit layout was a Kansas textbook peddling creationism–there was a family in front of this glassed-in text, the parents giggling as they explained the inexplicable (the earth is flat!) to their kids. How I longed for a Canadian flag lapel pin.

    Don’t get me wrong–the ignorant are here too, but they are safely marginalized, they do not interfere with the nation’s ability to confront and overcome their challenges. 50% of the debate is not argued by a party practicing mass deceit and fearmongering. And the media doesn’t give the nutters a voice front and center.

  • rustyreturns

    pluk gave a link to where the “30%” of every dollar is waste for Medicare. Saying 30% of the treatment is waste or treatments ordered by Physicians is not necessary.
    .
    Then we read that in order to curb, in the Government’s opinion, “these treatments are unnecessary”, cost Medicare 1/3 more than needed, the Government will impose a penalty on any Physician who goes above a set “limit” imposed by the Government.
    .
    Is there any wonder why so many people are concerned about the Government, some bureaucrat behind a desk in Washington will decide what treaments your Physician should or should not prescribe?
    .
    KT’s conclusion, with a hope and prayer, is that these Physicians are courageous custodians of our care. They will not allow some penalty to come between what is in the best interests of their patient, and their wallets.
    .
    KT assumes that the vast majority of Physicians will continue to provide the best care possible, regardless of what the Government might do to penalize the Physicians who do what is right for their patient’s best interests.
    .
    This is nothing short of shoddy opinion journalism, and
    A$($)ININE to put it bluntly.
    .
    Do we see KT write articles on other possible reforms? No. We only hear her shill out the Obama talking points, and base their justification on complete stupidity. (Yes, I said SHILL)
    .
    In the same web site that pluk cites for the 30% of waste, there was also this…
    .

    One, encourage competition across state lines to drive down costs. In this Internet age, I see no reason why data on various plans could not be readily available for all, and why all citizens should not have access to less expensive plans.

    Two, end the ability to health plans to deny membership for pre-existing illness. This may raise premiums, but could be offset by wide access to cheaper plans in other states.

    Three, have a guarantee that the plan would not increase national debt. This should be concrete guarantee rather than vague proposals about savings through prevention, EMRs, and coordinated care.

    Four, a concrete proposal on tort reform. Without such reform, the physician shortage will escalate, and the costs of defensive medicine will continue to soar.

    Five, tax breaks, or tax credits, for all citizens, including individuals rather than just for employees.

    Six, the ability to choose a plan that fits every individual’s or family’s needs and health status rather than comprehensive plans with every conceivable standard benefit regardless of risk.

    .
    This is exactly what i have been writing on here for the past 2 months explaining what we need in HCR, not what BaccObamaCare wants us to believe is in our best interests.
    .
    None of these 6 proposals with the exception of a tax break will cost the tax payer a dime. And, I am not confident the tax break is necessary.

  • Cliff

    I think the word you’re looking for is ‘asinine.’

  • carotexas1

    Karen thank you for getting on top of this right away.
    I hope that other reporters do the same.

    You have done a great job reporting on health care, and the only place I think you could have done more was on reporting on the House Bill. I understand your reasoning with the politics and the Senate Finance having the importance of getting the Senate vote.

    My problem is that although I watched very little of the house committee votes, the little I watched of the Waxman one I was very impressed with what they were trying to pass for the most part. I think that the House Representatives had listened to people that came to the hearings they held and put a lot of thought into what they wanted to include. I am just a concerned citizen and not an expert, but the Senate Finance does not show any of this.

    This is a link of a post by Digby on the a part of the house bill, discussing a blog by Bruce Webb that mentions some amendments I did not know about.
    http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2009/09/keeping-them-honest-by-digby-bruce-webb.html

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    Rusty says:
    .
    One, encourage competition across state lines to drive down costs. In this Internet age, I see no reason why data on various plans could not be readily available for all, and why all citizens should not have access to less expensive plans.
    .
    Question about the across-state-lines idea…if I live in Georgia and purchase an insurance policy from South Carolina, then have a problem with the insurance company, with which state government do I file a complaint? If I’m a Georgia citizen, South Carolina won’t give a flip what I have to say, and if the insurance company is licensed in SC, Georgia can’t do much about it. Or is there existing (federal) law that addresses this issue?

  • rustyreturns

    Well shakes,
    .
    The whole idea is to pass legislation that makes every State’s regulations the same for health care insurance. Then the difference would be no different if you buy anything now from a differnt State, then the Federal regulations would be the same for all States.
    .
    Don’t we have regulations that are Federal that regulate securities? The same would be for insurance.

  • http://twitter.com/ktumulty Karen Tumulty

    Caro:

    Thank you, and point taken. My only explanation is that, well, nothing has really actually happened on the House bill since early summer. At that point, I did write a fair amount about it, including:
    .
    http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/06/19/house-health-care-plan/
    .
    and
    .
    http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1903705,00.html
    .
    And when the HELP Committee came out with their bill, I did try to compare it to the House bill:
    .
    http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/07/02/a-senate-committees-health-reform-bill/
    .
    I still think the Senate is the thing to watch, if only because of the degree of difficulty in passing it. That gives them a lot of leverage, once they go into conference. My expectation (being clear here: not rooting one way or the other, just saying what I think is likely to happen) is that once they get into conference, the House gives up the public option in favor of getting more generous subsidies for the uninsured to buy health insurance. At that point, a trigger becomes a win for public option advocates.

  • carotexas1

    Thank you Karen for responding, and for your expectations on what will happen. I hope you are wrong and the House sticks with the Public Option as they can always add better subsidies later. I realise the Senate has always been able to do politics like this but with the Internet now, the way news is filtered to people like me I think has changed the way voters know what is going on.
    .
    I also think the House should have had more credit for the Health Bills they produced, while not perfect they were able to get approvals from the AMA, Nurses and AARP. We will see what the Senate Finance gets when it is finished.
    .
    I am looking forward to seeing how Rockefeller’s Public Plan CBO score when introduced on Tuesday and seeing how the committee turns down lowering the cost of the bill in billions.

  • juniusredivivus

    My question: Has anyone at the Washington Times actually talked to a doctor lately?

    Surely a psychiatrist would be more help. Of course, it might take a bit of time, and they probably don’t want to stand in line behind spob, rusty and hula.

  • cowboybill117

    Seems like common sense to me, you add 46 million people or whatever number their using today. Costs will be going down they say. HOW!!!! They are taking 629 billion from Medicare but not cutting services. HoW!!! Doctors are saying 45% of them will retire or move to another country to make their money as the goverment will tell them here. Can anyone here just look at common sense. Long lines coming, maybe some day you will even be able to see a real Doctor, but don’t count on it as they will be rationed. The cost of this bill has now risen to 1.3 trillon. Of course we all knew it would raise, the goverment has never done anything right.

  • juniusredivivus

    Well, the government has only defended you, built roads for you, made sure your food and water were safe, educated you, policed your communities…. but after all, these are such minimal benefits, aren’t they,Cowboybill?

  • cowboybill117

    JUNIUS The Goverment did none of that for me. We the tax payers did it. I did my time defending me and this country, the goverment did not. My father did the same, the goverment has done nothing that isn’t paid for by the working people. Try some commen sense please.

  • juniusredivivus

    And who do you think organized the people who actually did these things? Who provided structures for them to work within? Who legislated these agencies into existence and directed funding to them? Cowboybill, have you ever actually thought about how society works? Or are you just scared of the word “government”?

  • stuartzechman

    The message of movement conservatism is loud and clear, and so heard often: “the goverment has never done anything right
    .
    The message of the centrist establishment leadership is less clear, but can be heard if listened for “In partnership with big industry and bigger finance, the government will take care of it for you.
    .
    The message of liberalism is also clear, but remains unheard: “Ordinary people must take control of their government away from powerful interests, so that the country can be made whole again.

  • cowboybill117

    What I think about is an out of control goverment. What I think about is people who were elected completey ignoring what the majority want. What I think about is a President that surrounds himself with corrupt people. One other thing, the taxpayers pay for the people who organize, we do not legislate, the corrupt in Washington do. Answer me this, I’ll just ask about one in Congress. How did he become a multimillionair after just two years when his net worth when he was elected was $12,000?

  • juniusredivivus

    Well, so far I am not seeing this out of control govt you fear so much. Governments legislate and make policy – that’s why we elect them. As for what the majority wants – opinion polls say that it wants health care reform and a strong public option. The corrupt in Washington? Sure there are some corrupt people everywhere, but getting paranoid about it doesn’t make much of a case. How about some specific examples, with financial proof? As for your “one in congress” – who? Which one?

  • juniusredivivus

    Stuart Zechman – good evening. I see that you are becoming the soul of brevity, for which I commend you. I am however unsure that your “message of liberalism” is necessarily liberal per se. It seems to me that the formula you offer could apply to quite a number of political viewpoints, not all of which are liberal.

  • slowp

    Seriously, is it possible for Republicans to do anything without lying?

  • pdzxc

    It seems that one thing we all have difficulty discussing frankly is how much should be done to keep a person who is obviously going to die soon alive for a few days or weeks more. Many have addressed that question themselves in a sensible way with living wills that say no extraordinary measures should be used to keep them alive when death is near. But what do we do with people who have not provided this direction? Is it possible for our leaders to develop a sensible solution for this, and have it assessed rationally by the electorate? Obviously not. But this issue is out there, and it will be addressed one way or another even if we avoid discussing it rationally. Healthcare funding is not a bottomless pit. Every time money is wasted because we do not deal with this question sensibly, we are spending money that might be better used to provide health care for the young who are just starting their lives. So whether we address it or not we are all making a moral choice here. I would prefer we take care of the young as opposed to stretching a life that has come to an end for another few days or weeks. That is what I have chosen for myself.

  • Cliff

    Completely and egregiously Off Topic, but are we going to hear anything about Hassan Nemazee here?
    .

    Aug. 26 (Bloomberg) — Hassan Nemazee, chairman of Nemazee Capital Corp. and a fundraiser for President Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, was arrested on a bank fraud charge and ordered to remain under house arrest on $25 million bail.
    .
    Nemazee was charged with using phony documents to trick Citigroup Inc. into lending him as much as $74 million. The financier got the loan by telling Citibank he held accounts with hundreds of millions of dollars that could serve as collateral, U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara said yesterday in a statement..

    .
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601127&sid=aPI_Yd.Cevmo

  • http://twitter.com/ktumulty Karen Tumulty

    Please see my Monday update.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Created to compete with the traditional program, Medicare Advantage has proved to be far more costly per person than government-run coverage and is helping to drive Medicare toward bankruptcy.
    .
    Don’t tell Rusty. He just KNOWS that the object of the game is to slash treatment!

  • rustyreturns

    Is this what you are proposing pdzxc?
    .

    “The old Indian listened to the hungry wolves. He heard them form a circle around him and his small fire. He waved his burning stick at them, but they did not move away. Now, one of them moved closer, slowly, as if to test the old man’s strength. Another and another followed. The circle grew smaller and smaller. Not one wolf stayed behind.

    Why should he fight? Why cling to life? And he dropped his stick with the fire on the end of it. It fell in the snow and the light went out.

    The circle of wolves moved closer. Once again the old Indian saw the picture of the moose as it struggled before the end came. He dropped his head to his knees. What did it matter after all? Isn’t this the law of life?”

    .
    http://www.manythings.org/voa/stories/The_Law_of_Life_-_By_Jack_London.html
    .
    You “Progressives” never cease to amaze me!!

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Is it possible for our leaders to develop a sensible solution for this, and have it assessed rationally by the electorate?
    .
    No.
    This has been another edition of simple answers to simple questions.
    .

  • jlbrumb

    There goes that “right wing extremist” Washington Post again!

  • rustyreturns

    Do you know anything about Medicare Advantage, Dirks? Or are you simply spouting off about something you have no clue about yet again?
    .
    Medicare Advantage was primarily set up to provide “affordable” health care insurance to low income Seniors. Seniors who are completely dependent upon Social Security to live on each month.
    .
    These disadvantaged Seniors are currently provided with a reasonable monthly premium which covers all Doctors visits, treatments and hospitalizations. They do not worry about the risk of paying out of pocket for the 20% regular Medicare A/B stipulates they pay out of pocket if they have those plans. They do not need to purchase a separate private supplemental insurance plan to cover the difference that A/B does not cover. They will be told to go back to the way it was before, purchase a Medicare supplemental insurance plan and fore go their medications that they can no longer afford. They will go back to eating dog and cat food, because it is cheaper than eating regular food.
    .
    Do you believe that we should have a limit on catastrophic illness losses? If so, then you would also agree that Medicare Advantage provides this type of coverage for those Seniors who now have Medicare Advantage insurance.
    .
    Cutting out Medicare Advantage is only one part of Obama’s plan to fund “health care for all”. He is also going to penalize Physicians by cutting their reimbursements as Karen has cited in this blog post should they over all run into the top 10% of Doctors Nationwide who are ordering treatments for their patients. The “30% of wasted” Medicare dollars as the Democrats now seem to think is “waste” in the Medicare program.
    .
    So cutting out 30% of the “waste” and eliminating Medicare Advantage programs, Obama will fund his Universal health care plan for everyone.
    .
    Of course there is no guarantee that Physicians will stop ordering the “30% of un-necessary treatments”, and the Government will save anything, but he wants to penalize Doctors none-the-less. As Karen says, these are not Doctors who are worrying about their wallets. They will continue to order treatments and hospitalizations that are necessary to protect and heal these patients. Since the pressures are already put on Physicians by way of Medicare reimbursement cuts, I am sure that they will continue to do the right thing despite what the Government tells them to do or penalizes them for doing. Don’t you think?
    .
    I mean if you cut out 10% or so of the money I am reimbursed for my time, I am sure that I will continue to order these tests anyways, “because it is in the best interest of my patients”. But, I can make it up because there are about 20% of the population out there who are currently not coming to the office for treatment, because they do not have insurance. We can hopefully make up for the losses that way. Agree? I’ll just work harder than I am now, see more patients because of the flood of new patients the public option will bring out, and make up for my losses that way. Makes total sense to me.
    .
    Or, as many articles are now saying. With ObamaCare, I’ll just retire completely, rather than keep working part-time.

  • Matt

    The problem with any legislation is that it has lots and lots of arcane language that no one can understand. So, naturally, conservative critics of reform will use this fact to concoct any story they wish from perfectly innocuous – but complicated and vague – Senate-speak.

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • 53_3

    This will be interesting in the extreme. The Medicare Advantage program is something that hasn’t impacted us all that much, anyway. We are in the group that has concerns about this.
    .
    Frying bigger fish,
    .
    I wonder, though, now that the ACORN hoax led to legislation against ACORN, will this new revelation/disclosure/lie/hoax about “death panels” lead to a repeal of any reference to “death panels” in the upcoming legislation?
    .
    How about the one about the Moon being made of cheese? Should they vote tomorrow on it? Eh, rusty?

  • messenia

    One, encourage competition across state lines to drive down costs. In this Internet age, I see no reason why data on various plans could not be readily available for all, and why all citizens should not have access to less expensive plans.
    .
    There’s an article about that issue posted on The New Republic blog this morning State of Denial
    .
    I apologize in advance if the link doesn’t work; it’s fine in the preview but that doesn’t seem to mean much on this board.

  • 53_3

    You’re right textee!
    .
    The whole world is wrong!
    .
    Of course, there is another way to look at this…

  • stuartzechman

    juniusredivivus:

    the formula you offer could apply to quite a number of political viewpoints, not all of which are liberal.

    I disagree.
    .
    It seems to me that the message of liberalism:

    “Ordinary people must take control of their government away from powerful interests, so that the country can be made whole again.”

    is distinct from the rightist or centrist themes.
    .
    The rightists say “Power must be taken away from the national government.“, whilst the centrists say “Power must be vested in elites, whether state or industry.“.
    .
    These are very different ideas than “We must empower ourselves through government.“, in my opinion.

  • rustyreturns

    IQ53:
    .
    This is the last time I shall respond to any of your comments.
    .
    Simply because you are too stupid, and your lame attempts at sarcasm is just trite. Go fry some more fish, little boy.

  • cfukara

    Am I looking too far ahead by suggesting that if the health care bill passes, then the GOP will thereafter blame ANY non-accidental death which occur in USA on the Dems?

  • messenia

    For those who may be interested, here’s another study that came up with the same estimate:
    .
    http://www.nehi.net/uploads/full_report/waste__clinical_care_report__final.pdf
    .
    Could someone please provide instructions on how to separate paragraphs and post hyperlinks on this board?

  • juniusredivivus

    The problem, Stuart, is that your program is so vague that it fits the dictatorship of the proletariat, and would not take much reworking to match a number of the ideas put forward by either Hitler or Mussolini in their acquisitions of power. There is nothing about “making the country whole” that is distinctly liberal (it’s standard issue boilerplate for anyone running against Washington), and the idea of “taking government back for ordinary people” would fit in quite happily with some of the slogans used by the Teabaggers. That’s why I don’t see what you offer as a distinctively “liberal” program, either in the context of history, or right now.

  • 53_3

    “This is the last time I shall respond to any of your comments.”
    .
    Now I put this to you, commenters:
    .
    If you were a part of a happily married interracial couple, and a Neo Nazi said this to you, would you:
    .
    1. ___Collapse in a corner and cry
    2. ___Show indifference
    3. ___Jump for joy
    .
    My guess:
    .
    I think there would be a ton of twos and threes, but there would be no ones whatsoever!

  • anitalounurse

    Good morning All! So, is today the day that the Million Med March is taking place in DC? I can hardly wait to hear what all those health care professionals have to say!!!!!!
    I’ve been in health care since approx 1983….oops showing my age here….oh well…age before beauty, right? Well…my thoughts on this are passionate, so please pardon any CAPS I may use to help HIGHLIGHT the point I am trying to get across. I truly believe that quality health care is care that is delivered in the right setting at the right time and in line with the patient / physician relationship. HA! If only it were that simple. See, that kind of care, in my opinion, is SO rare! If it were to actualize itself, then we would not need to reform our health care system. Cost-effective care can and should be achieved if the health care providers would FIRST DO NO HARM, follow their training “in search of excellence” with EACH AND EVERY PATIENT THEY TREAT; not only hear but LISTEN to their patient(s). If a doc thinks a second opinion would benefit the patient, then get your EGOS outta the way and have an open and honest convo with the patient. Or better yet, if a doc feels in their heart that they are in the medical profession for are in it for ALL THE WRONG REASONS, then they might consider doing us all a favor and find a new profession!!! Quality, cost-effective and outcome-oriented medical care CAN and IS being provided. Look at the Cleveland Clinic model. IT ROCKS!!!! Hey MEDS…STOP AND LISTEN TO YOUR GUT FOR A MINUTE!!! Whose best interest do you really have in mind / in your heart????
    I truly hope that today, the medial profession will gain more insight into how they WILL BE PART OF THE SOLUTION INSTEAD OF PART OF THE PROBLEM!!!!! ALL our voices NEED to be heard. I also believe we need to SLOW DOWN THE HC REFORM BILL! It took years to get us into this mess…just like the finanacial / housing crisis….so, as Obama has touted on that issue, IT WILL TAKE US TIME TO GET OUT OF THIS HC MESS!!!! PLEASE TELL DC TO SLOW DOWN THE BILL!!!!!!

  • anitalounurse

    Hi cfukara ~ I would venture to day that your point is well taken and that the GOP has to learn how to better THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!!!!!! They are so entrenched in their own partisan way of thinking, that it is scary to me that your point helps illustrate! Sometimes drastic times call for drastic commentary….keep ‘em coming!!! Thank!!!!

  • anitalounurse

    good morning Matt….I AGREE!!!! this is the same thing that attorneys use “legal-ease”, physicians sometimes do this with their “medical lingo”, etc. This is SO UNACCEPTABLE!!!! In face I think it is a COWARD “istic”….is that even a word???? approach. They might do this to HIDE behind their words…delay tactic, etc. etc. etc. The reason does not matter. It is WRONG ON ITS FACE!!!
    Thanks for your “easy to understand”, “straight to the point”, honest and truthful observation and sharing it today!!!

  • http://thefastertimes.com/mediaanalysis/2009/10/06/do-limbaugh-beck-et-al-move-the-needle/ Do Limbaugh, Beck Et. Al. Move The Needle? | Media Analysis

    [...] care debate.  Can one  assess the violent eruptions at the summer’s town hall meetings, the use of falsehoods and the violations of decorum without thinking that these conservative commentators represent a [...]

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