Dear Insurance Company, You Have a Right to be Wrong

Before the lunch break in the Senate Finance Committee’s markup on health reform legislation, members engaged in a long and ultra-wonky debate on Medicare Advantage. The debate was essentially about whether more than $100 billion in cuts to Medicare Advantage will lead to a reduction in benefits. At the risk of being unclear, the answer is yes and no. Benefits seniors are entitled to under Medicare – i.e. much needed, pure medical benefits – will not change, but extra benefits (like dental, vision and gym memberships) provided by seniors who choose to buy Medicare Advantage plans will likely be reduced over time some some people. (The government has the power to do this because Medicare Advantage plans are subsidized with federal funds.) The debate ended with Democrats – and Republican Olympia Snowe – voting down an amendment from Republic Orin Hatch that the bill not make the cuts. See here and here for more.

But the debate after the senators returned from lunch was also heated – and indicative of how Chairman Max Baucus’s efforts at bipartisanship are, so far, not a part of the Finance Committee markup process.

On Tuesday, insurer Humana was ordered to stop sending notices to Medicare Advantage enrollees telling them that their benefits would be cut under Democratic health reform legislation. From the Washington Post’s David S. Hilzenrath:

“The federal government has ordered health insurers to stop telling Medicare beneficiaries that proposed health reform legislation could hurt seniors and jeopardize their benefits.

The government might take enforcement action against insurers that have tried to mobilize opposition to the legislation by sending their enrollees “misleading and confusing” messages, a senior official of the Department of Health and Human Services said in a memo Monday.

The mailings in question urge enrollees to contact their congressional representatives and protest the legislation, the memo said.

A spokesman for America’s Health Insurance Plans, the industry’s main lobbying group, issued a statement Tuesday criticizing what he described as the government’s “gag order.”

“Seniors have a right to know how the current reform proposals will affect the coverage they currently like and rely on,” AHIP spokesman Robert Zirkelbach said.

Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the Senate’s Republican leader, denounced the HHS order as an attempt to squelch free speech.

“We cannot allow government officials to target individuals or companies because they do not like what they have to say,” McConnell said.”

In the Finance Committee Wednesday, Republican Jon Kyl proposed an amendment that would have allowed actions like Humana’s to take place. Kyl said he was protecting the First Amendment rights of insurers to express their views, going so far as to say such expressions should be protected even if they’re not true. “Entities have the right to be wrong when expressing their free speech,” he said, calling the HHS action “chilling.”

Baucus countered that communications between insurers and seniors are not like other speech and that federal laws, including HIPAA, restrict communications between enrollees and insurers. “There is a long history of companies and individuals taking advantages of seniors,” he said, calling the senior population “vulnerable.” “This allows companies to take advantage of relationship they have with seniors and misrepresent the truth.” A Finance Committee staffer also pointed out that insurers who sell Medicare Advantage plans are government contractors and, as such, as even more restricted on what communications they can send to seniors and that Human violated their contract by sending the mailing.

A senior Democratic aide, e-mailing during the hearing said, “This is about doing what’s right for seniors, not about politics.” But it’s impossible to ignore the politics here.

The Humana mailing opposed Democratic reforms. A Democratic-controlled HHS ordered the mailing to stop. Republicans said the move was a violation of free speech. Democrats said Humana was taking advantage of seniors. The vote on Kyl’s amendment was split directly along party lines.

At the end of the day, while seniors certainly have a right to know what reform bills will mean for them, insurance companies – with a huge financial stake in the outcome – are not the sources that older Americans should be relying on for clarity, regardless of the First Amendment.

Related Topics: hipaa, humana, medicare advantage, Congress, Health Care, Uncategorized
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  • spob

    I think the acronym is HIPAA, not HIPPA.
    .
    Second, I find it absolutely amazing that a member of the press would ever write the words “regardless of the First Amendment.”
    .
    Third, this quote is problematic: “A Finance Committee staffer also pointed out that insurers who sell Medicare Advantage plans are government contractors and, as such, as even more restricted on what communications they can send to seniors and that Human violated their contract by sending the mailing.”
    .
    Oh really, Ms. Pickert? You’re going to take the word of a staffer that the contract was violated?
    .
    Fourth of all, this is a prior restraint of speech, which is highly suspect. Why isn;t that in your reporting?
    .
    Fifth of all, interested parties cannot be restrained simply because they are interested.
    .
    Sixth of all, what’s the paternalism towards seniors. Are we going to restrict seniors’ access to a point of view merely because some aren’t able to judge for themselves?
    .
    Seventh of all, this comment is just hilarious:

    “Kyl said he was protecting the First Amendment rights of insurers to express their views, going so far as to say such expressions should be protected even if they’re not true.”

    Well, Kate, would you like your ability to write something to be predicated on you being 100% accurate? And who is going to be the one to evaluate the truth/falsity of political speech?

  • agnomina

    The catch here, spob, is that Humana is apparently on the government dollar, and don’t want to see that dollar shrink. There is both a contractual and legal problem with their actions as such. The mailing deliberately misled a volatile voting demographic, with the intention of indirectly forcing the legislators’ hands. Contractually, they most likely had an agreement against corporate activism, which this would violate. Legally, it’s a conflict of interest, pure and simple.
    -
    Calling it an issue of free speech detracts from the actual problem, which is that when faced with losing part of a fat government check, a private corporation attempted to influence votes through dishonesty to get it back. Or simply put, a company tried to hijack the political process for their own gain. That is more unconstitutional, in my opinion, than asking them to stop.

  • pafro

    Sounds like the Humana fraud is the same sort of thing that ACORN did. I demand that Humana lose all Federal Contracts under the rules of H.R. 3571, which bars groups that defraud the government from getting contracts: http://is.gd/3BQ6g
    Sounds like they had previously ripped off the taxpayers. http://is.gd/3BPUM
    Why were they allowed to continue getting federal contractor work after they were busted for fraud in 2000?

  • pafro

    Kate, I would refrain from using Jon Kyl as a source in the future. You do know that he lied to the Supreme Court during the Hamdan v. Rumsfeld case don’t you?
    Now if Jon Kyl is the type of person willing to lie to the Supreme Court, do you think he is going to be any more truthful with a Time employee?

  • spob

    Agnomina, amazing how quickly you will agree with the censoring of speech you don’t like. And I don’t think your conclusion on “legally speaking” is all that good.
    .
    This is political speech, which is highly protected. Private parties try to influence government action all the time–it’s called lobbying. They do it to protect their government check all the time.

  • spob

    This isn’t fraud. And if you think Humana should be barred from getting government cash, write a letter to your Congresscritters and publicize the answers.

  • plukasiak

    IMHO, the central issue here is that Humana is using information gleaned through its role as a government contractor for political purposes. Humana maintains its rights to lobby and advertise in general, it just isn’t allowed to target people whom they know about solely because of an existing government contract.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    It never ceases to amaze me how the right can make such expansive claims about law and order and moral values, but the moment the law or the value doesn’t favor their agenda everything becomes relative — What happened to the people who said that being innocent is no reason to call off an execution that was legally adjudicated? If fairness doesn’t count in that scenario it certainly isn’t a justifiable argument here. The law says that if you are a government contractor you must abide by specific rules of marketing because you are not allowed to use your position as a representative of government to contact Americans with rhetoric that can be assumed to becoming from their government and therefore true. They signed the agreement because they wanted the money — now they must live with the deal, just like they tell the rest of us to do with they drop coverage for a typo or a forgotten case of acne.

  • spob

    Then the government should go to court and get an injunction. Ya know, like everyone else. This is a prior restraint of speech.

  • spob

    You really shouldn’t spout off like that, Dee. You show your ignorance. For example, the “innocence” question is a very difficult one–who decides (a) what is innocence (a more difficult question than you might think) and (b) when said “innocent” is released are very difficult questions.
    .
    There are free speech issues here.

  • nflfoghorn

    “At the end of the day…insurance companies – with a huge financial stake in the outcome – are not the sources that older Americans should be relying on for clarity, regardless of the First Amendment.”

    They shouldn’t but it keeps happening. Why? Media and those who care keep allowing the lies to go unchallenged. They got $, something to say and a mouthpiece to say it. This is why this reform thing is mired in sludge, why some pols say (but likely don’t believe) that the government’s out to pull the plug on Grandma.

  • rustyreturns

    “At the end of the day, while seniors certainly have a right to know what reform bills will mean for them, insurance companies – with a huge financial stake in the outcome – are not the sources that older Americans should be relying on for clarity, regardless of the First Amendment.”

    .
    So in your world Kate, you would solely depend on the government to give you the information you needed, is that what you are saying? That you are recommending seniors not to seek out any other sources for information in order to make up their minds whether they can believe in this government and what they are trying to pass as legislation on behalf of the citizens of the US?
    .
    Are you saying the the insurance companies which total more than 1300 for just healthcare, are corrupt, and will only provide information to their clients and customers that they deem to be the truth, but in actuality are just lies to rip the seniors off?
    .
    Are you calling for as pafro says above for a full investigation in the the practices of Humana because they informed their customers about the LIES Obama and his Administration are telling about what the current plan they back will do with their healthcare funds? How the current plan is to take away over 300 BILLION from Medicare and Medicare Advantage plans, and simply stop payment on this very worthwhile program, you trust that this is the best move to make with HCR? You trust the government to know that this is in the best interests of the seniors who are Humana clients, and that Humana does not have the right to inform their clients of the real truth in this matter?
    .
    You are as naive as I thought you were. You are simply not qualified to be a reporter on this subject, nor are you sufficiently able to respond to any comments that I may make, and be a credible source to find out the truth during these hearings.
    .
    You are simply a stenographer and definately not a reporter.

  • http://fourlegsrgood.wordpress.com fourlegsgood

    Kyl is a major *sshat. Sure, they have a right to be wrong, but NOT WITH TAXPAYER DOLLARS.

    They should lose their contract for this nonsense.

  • spob

    Fine, then file a complaint with HHS.

  • nflfoghorn

    Oh, the heck with logic. I’ll just follow Rusty’s lead and vote Republican. They’re already in bed with big companies and they don’t seem to care about misleading and lying – it’s all about free speech, right!

  • spob

    No nfl, the issue is that we value our rights in this country. Giuliani wasnt so cool with free speech in a number of cases, and I was appalled by that too. People like Al Sharpton and David Duke get to speak their minds in this country. Humana does too.

  • agnomina

    Likewise, it’s amazing how quickly you’ll resort to derision, spob. I’m trying to be polite, I’d appreciate it if you made the same effort. Name-calling squabbles aren’t worth your time or mine.
    -
    The difference here between lobbying and the mailing is that lobbying is done directly to government officials, with the understanding that yes, this is lobbying, no disguises. The mailing, however, was underhanded at best, and rather than being aimed at the officials, it was pitched at an important chunk of the voting population – manipulating them into pushing the company’s own agenda through voting pressure. That’s where it could be a legal conflict of interest – by using not lobbyists, but their government-enabled ties to the senior demographic, to sway the legislators into saving their profit.

  • spob

    Here’s what RedState has to say about possible coordination:
    .
    http://www.redstate.com/erick/2009/09/23/former-baucus-aide-complicit-in-max-baucuss-humana-insurance-harassment/
    .
    The other issue, guys, is whether the government is engaging in viewpoint discrimination here. That doesn’t fly even if HHS theoretically has the power to squelch speech.
    .
    Kate, perhaps you should ask one of Baucus’ staffers about that issue.

  • rustyreturns

    It’s about time you come to your senses, nflfoghorn!!

  • spob

    agnomina, that’s hardly derision–your “legally speaking” leadin doesn’t seem all that strong. Moreover, you talk in terms of Humana’s actions being unconstitutional. In any event, I don;t think I’ve violated any civility code here. If I did, apologies.
    .
    In any event, I am well aware of the differences between lobbying and the communication with the seniors. But the reality is that this is political speech, and political speech is protected. That you don’t like the motives isn’t enough to shut it down, and your casual justification of a government order to someone to shut up is, quite frankly, astounding. One of the things I love about my America is that people get to say what they want. I don’t always like it. But hey, it’s a free country.

  • nflfoghorn

    Ideally, no one has a right to mislead and LIE and their actions not go unchallenged. Don’t tell me y’all were sippin’ Slurpees when those bozos were polluting the town hall meetings and preventing any meaningful debate. He who has the most $ and yells the loudest shouldn’t get the attention and the influence, but it happens.

  • rustyreturns

    spob:
    .
    You should know that the double standard that LIberals and Progressives use will always be their defense in matters such as this.
    .
    Just like throwing the race card, when there isn’t anything close to racist being said. They still call you a racist, just for the hell of it. Just because the President is black, if you disagree, then you are a racist.
    .
    Humana in this case, must also be a racist company, I’m surprised that they haven’t said that yet either.

  • spob

    Yep, rusty, I agree. Freedom for me, not for thee is the lib’s credo.

  • nflfoghorn

    The crazy train’s pulling out any moment, Rus.

  • spob

    “Ideally, no one has a right to mislead and LIE and their actions not go unchallenged.”
    .
    So what is your punishment for Barack Obama who spouted the 47 million Americans nonsense which included illegals? That was misleading.

  • rustyreturns

    Bon voyage!! Enjoy your trip nflfoghorn. Do us a favor, take Obama and Baccus with you!!!

  • pafro

    Fraud: Intentional misrepresentation or concealment of information in order to deceive or mislead.
    Yep, it’s fraud. Entities do not have the “right to be wrong” as the liar Kyl claims, especially entities trying to attract investors and gain marketshare, which is what this is really about.

  • pafro

    I actually agree with the troll in part. I wish for the Supreme Court to revisit whether corporations were ever actually granted the exact same rights as Americans to free speech, the right to carry arms, etc.
    If Humana thinks this is a free speech thing, they should file suit and fight it all the way to the Supreme Court.

  • Matt

    It must be awfully painful to have to watch and cover these hearings. I’d have passed out by now…

  • spob

    Gee, pafro, you are stupid, aren’t you? Political speech as “fraud”, what an idiot you are.
    .
    By the way, the reason I am calling you stupid is that downthread you called me a troll. Yeah, my comments are trollish. You moron.

  • spob

    And of course, Kate doesn’t have a word to say about AARP. AARP stands to benefit from the Dems’ legislation and is engaging in political speech:
    .
    http://spectator.org/blog/2009/09/22/gop-report-charges-aarp-gettin
    .
    If AARP’s interested, then, to ask Kate’s question, why should seniors be getting info from them?
    .
    Funny that.

  • spob

    I think I’ll just declare victory here.

  • ohiolib

    As bad as this makes me feel to write, the insurance companies are right. Unless there is significant evidence that they are intentionally trying to mislead people, the government has no right to tell them what they can and cannot say. And if they’re wrong, they should be soundly and publicly revealed as being wrong. But until then, leave the government out of it.

  • spob

    Hear hear. I’m glad that someone on the left side of the aisle is appreciative of the dangers of the government telling people what they can and cannot say.

    Too bad we have a member of the press simply swallowing whole what some Dem staffer has to say.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    My ignorance? You have a problem with drawing analogies? I’m not debating Scalia’s position here, I am simply using it as a means to illustrate my observation that when it comes to the law, or moral imperatives your side tends to believe in strict interpretation when it supports your position and when it doesn’t you gravitate towards relativism and that’s a complete 180.

  • spob

    No Dee, I have a problem with overly simplistic ones. I am quite certain you have little grasp of Scalia’s view of the Constitution (which often, by the way, is friendly to defendants). The question of what constitutes “innocence” and who gets to decide whether someone is innocent is a very difficult one. I’ll put it to you, Dee, is Jeremy Sheets innocent?

  • spob

    So everyone, is everyone cool with Baucus’ ex-staffer being the one to issue the gag order?

  • agnomina

    I think you’re incorrectly assuming my disagreement with this is solely based on politics. I don’t like large organizations exploiting their political connections to dupe the public, period. The DNC misrepresented opposing views in an ad and I was just as irritated with them as I am with Humana.
    -
    I’m interested in what you mean by the legally-speaking bit being weak. I don’t mean that sarcastically, either – it’s just that you’ve only stated that it’s not all that strong, without actually providing any counterargument.
    -
    I’m also not advocating for the government’s right to ‘shut people up’ when it’s expedient. That’s Cheney territory. But if we allow a private, for-profit company to use its government funding to, essentially, override the government through vote manipulation, then that’s a problem we can’t ignore.

  • http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com lawyermommy

    We only seem to read about Senator Kyl when he steps forward to defend the indefensible.
    Emm, Senator Kyl believes it is okay to frighten Seniors with incorrect information under the guise of free speech. What a load of bunk.

    He must have been asleep in Constitutional Law class or could this be “cut and dried” politics as usual…hmmmm Politics as usual, how shocking! :)

    LM

    http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/

  • spob

    First of all, legally speaking anyway, the idea that Humana has violated the constitution (which you asserted) is just plain nonsense.
    .
    Second of all, your “conflict of interest” statement, legally speaking anyway, draws the comment “so what?”, as in it doesn’t pass the “so what” test.
    .
    Third of all, legally-speaking anyway, we have to have rules to determine when things are in “cheney territory” and when they are not. Here you have “misleading” statements (who gets to decide that, by the way). And they are to be gagged because you don’t want someone “manipulating the process”. What rules and tests are you going to craft to determine when the government gets to shut people up?
    .
    You seems to have a generalized dislike of corporations etc. abusing speech. Please enlighten us as to your tests for when speech can be squelched.

  • Friar Tuck

    You do that, spob. It’s the only way you’ll ever win.

  • spob

    I don’t think Kyl said anything of the sort. I think he was simply standing up for freedom speech and the freedom to be wrong in one’s speech.
    .
    In any event, perhaps, lawyermommy, you’ll enlighten us as to the tests and rules that must be followed before the government can do the prior restraint thing.

  • spob

    Oh, I think I’ve pretty much won this thread.

  • spob

    And I’m sure, Kate, you’re just peachy with this:

    http://thehill.com/homenews/house/59809-frank-conyers-come-to-acorns-aid

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    spob, if the following is true, then this seems rather clear-cut:
    .
    The law says that if you are a government contractor you must abide by specific rules of marketing because you are not allowed to use your position as a representative of government to contact Americans with rhetoric that can be assumed to becoming from their government and therefore true.
    .
    Again, IF that is true (haven’t had time to look it up yet), then this is potentially bad PR for the Obama administration and nothing more, except what Glenn Beck manages to spin. If this is NOT the law, then this becomes a bit more problematic.

  • spob

    And I’m sure all the libs in here (except Ohiolib) are just thrilled with this:

    http://www.bizzyblog.com/2009/09/23/il-school-district-engages-in-obama-speech-indoctrination/

    Because, you know, we can squelch speech and indoctrinate . . . .

  • spob

    You still have real issues of viewpoint discrimination and prior restraint. Them’s a big big deal.
    .
    And the solution is not to ban speech, but to make sure that the communication is clearly from Humana, not the government.

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    “Freedom for me, not for thee” is the LIB’s credo?
    .
    Where have you two been for the past eight years?

  • tc125231

    Are you today’s assigned troll? Do you really feel that there is dialog when you do 60%+ of the talking?

    You are also remarkably ignorant, although you seem to compensate for it by a consistently irresponsible glibness.

  • spob

    Remarkably ignorant–hmmmm. I don’t think so.

  • pafro

    It is corporate speech, not political. It is sent out to people with a business interest in Humana. They took a government handout (subsidies) and turned around and used that money to misrepresent a government issue.

  • tc125231

    As a senior manager in a Fortune 100 corporation, I find your post either impossibly ignorant, or knowingly misleading.

    The insurance company is NOT another citizen. It is, in this context, a paid agent, or subcontractor, of the Federal government. As an individual routinely responsible for millons in subcontracting, I make the following points:

    –no corporation, considering a changed policy or procedure, would tolerate a subcontractor knowingly going to ITS customers and saying negative things about the proposed change.

    –if one of my subcontractors did this, they would be removed as an eligible subcontractor until their senior management had shown repentance, and suitable restitution had been made. Until such actions had occurred, there is absolutely no chance they would receive further business of any kind.

    It should also be pointed out that these wankers only had these customer’s addresses because they worked for the government. They are not –under any knowable set of business ethics –allowed to use an address received on that basis for their own purposes without their prime contractor’s written permission.

    So, by your “so what” test, the answer should be that Congress can punish them as it pleases. No court order is required. No Fortone 500 company would feel compelled to go to court over such a matter, unless punsishing their errant subcontractor financially failed to produce necessary behavioral changes.

    This is called “the market”. You may have heard of it.

  • pafro

    If Humana wants to speak freely about Medicare Advantage, they could drop their government contracts Re: Advantage and they could say whatever they want, just like we are.

  • spob

    Please explain, pafro, what exactly is “corporate speech”?

    Were you thinking “commercial speech”?

    Also, perhaps you could explain how this ban flies under Belloti?

  • spob

    Wow, tc, you sure expended a lot of energy on that post.
    .
    But you pretty much clown yourself when you say that Congress can punish them any way it pleases. You also may want to check out the difference between the order from HHS (which likely has the force of law) and your ability to do what you want with your subcontractors.
    .
    I also know of no First Amendment exceptions which allows the government to ban speech to individuals with whom the subcontractor already communicates. But hey, I’m just ignorant.

  • spob

    Yeah, pafro, and if a cop wants to keep his job, he shouldn’t make political statements against his bosses . . . .

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    You have got to be kidding me. Seriously. THIS link provides proof of indoctrination? I’d be laughed out of first-year composition class if this was my argument.

  • spob

    Dude, are you kidding?

    You really think it’s cool to have kids talking about what they’re gonna do because Obama called on them? Whatever, dude.

  • alaskanturkey

    My fellow prisoners, President Obama’s supporters have been saying some pretty nasty things about teabaggers lately. And, you know, I couldn’t agree with them more…I couldn’t disagree with spob…I couldn’t agree with spob that the fact that drug companies are the most patriotic, most god loving, most patriotic part of America. They are a great part of the country!
    .
    See, I don’t need my meds and neither do you!
    .
    McCain/Fail 2012

  • spob

    And another thing, tc, ever hear of “viewpoint discrimination”? It’s a big big no-no for the government to engage in it. But hey, what do I know, I can’t figure out that a private relationship is perfectly analogous to a public-private relationship because I am so ignorant.

  • idontknowal

    Maybe it’s just me, but it seems like Obama is morphing into Hugo Chavez..

  • spob

    That’s the beauty of free speech. Everyone gets it. Whether you like them or hate them.

  • alaskanturkey

    you’re right. it is just you.

  • spob

    I guess alaskaturkey was cool with Senators threatening broadcast licenses because of shows that were aired. He probably also was cool with the Obama campaigns letters to stations that ran certain political ads.

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    I think kids talking about responsibility and hard work and how they can help their country is great. And you don’t like this…why? Because of the messenger, spob? Really? Where’s the “indoctrination,” spob? You’re good at arguing things…your response is “Whatever, dude”?

  • spob

    Because, Shakespeare, the service is being linked directly to Obama, and Obama has made service a big honking political deal. Hey, maybe you’re cool with it. I am not.

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    How is service a big political deal? If George W. Bush had done this, I wouldn’t have cared a whit. This is plain partisan hackery, my friend. Trying to argue that this is some kind of indoctrination is weak. This wasn’t about how to provide service to Obama. It was the President of the United States calling upon schoolchildren to get involved in school and in the work of their nation. Exactly what is wrong with this?

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    That’s the beauty of free speech. Everyone gets it. Whether you like them or hate them.

  • spob

    There’s nothing wrong with the President calling on people to do community service, you know, the 1000 points of light thing. What is wrong is to put kids in a school setting and ask them what Obama has inspired them to do. It’s the linking of the message with the President that’s frankly creepy.
    .
    Like I said, i would have told these SOBs to go f themselves when I was a student.

  • spob

    I’m sure you loved the “respond to President Obama” part.
    .
    Jeez.

  • spob

    We’ll see if Ms. Pickert has the guts to step into this arena. Somehow I doubt it.

  • fhmadvocat

    spob,

    You are absolutely right in your original posting. Even if Humana is “misleading” seniors, they have a right to express an opinion, especially a politcal one. Besides, who says Humana is wrong. Personally, if they are going to cut memberships to health clubs, clearly seniors are getting their “benefits” cut.

  • http://oddsfish.wordpress.com/ person111

    “insurance companies – with a huge financial stake in the outcome – are not the sources that older Americans should be relying on for clarity, regardless of the First Amendment.”

    Ms. Pickert: Your closing line reveals the utter contempt with which you regard the freedom of speech enshrined in our Constitution.

    What if the Bush administration were pushing reform that would end up cutting billions in funds to Medicare, and Humana sent a letter accurately noting the possibility that valuable benefits could be lost–and the Bush administration put a gag order on not only Humana, but ALL insurance companies from sending out similar letters? Would you be so supportive of the gov’t's muzzling of the insurance industry? For some reason, I doubt it.

    For someone who works in a field that succeeds only by vigorous respect for the First Amendment, I am surprised you would place political agenda first, and freedom of speech second.

  • spob

    Well put. Well put.

  • spob

    And there’s also the viewpoint discrimination issue, something which our tyro journo doesn’t seem to get.

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    Did I “love” that, spob? No. I didn’t care. It’s simply an educational technique–writing to a specific audience. Why wouldn’t they write to the President? The person who spoke to them? If there were evidence that this was a ploy to create a cult of worship around Obama, it would bother me. There isn’t any that I can see. It’s about writing the President. The office, spob.

  • spob

    Don’t look now pafro, but you just got pwned.

  • spob

    “On Friday of this week the freshmen will have an extended adviser room of 45 minutes. At that time President Obama’s speech will be shown and a discussion, facilitated by the adviser, will take place. We are excited about creating a safe environment where multiple perspectives can be heard. There will also be follow-up discussions in World History classes on that day.

    “Possible discussion questions for the students on Friday are:

    “Why do you think President Obama listed the responsibilities of teachers, parents, and the government before discussing your responsibility for your education? What does this highlight for you, the audience?
    .
    “What are you “good at” and what do you have “to offer” your family, friends, and community?
    What could you do here at New Trier that will help you continue to do these things well?
    .
    At the beginning of freshman year, it is important to start thinking about what direction your life will take. How do President Obama’s words, “write your own destiny” and “make your own future” apply to you right now?
    .
    “In the speech, President Obama spoke of some of the steps of Effective Effort. Identify them, using direct quotations from the text to support your assertions.
    .
    “Respond to President Obama’s final questions for you: “What’s your contribution going to be? What problems are you going to solve? What discoveries will you make? What will a president who comes here in 20 or 50 or 100 years say about what all of you did for this country?”
    .
    Yep, let’s study His words. Respond to Him.
    .
    That’s a problem.

  • spob

    Here’s a question? Was the mailing true? False?

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    person111, you do make a good point. The only quibble I have is that in your hypothetical, you state that Humana sent a letter “accurately” noting the possibility that valuable benefits could be lost. The issue here is that Humana is being accused of sending out inaccurate and misleading information in order to protect its own interests. It’s a conundrum. IF they broke a law that applies to them as government contractors, then they broke a law. But it’s more complicated than that, as all things political often are. Where do we draw the line between free speech and lying? Can we? Should we?
    .
    I think a big problem is that “free speech” is often used as a cover for lies or gross exaggerations, and public people (politicians, media talking heads) do not seem to pay a price for lying. And I see where Ms. Pickert is coming from in her closing line: she isn’t pis$ing on the First Amendment but is stating that insurance companies, who stand to win or lose big in this health care reform debate, shouldn’t be THE sources of info that senior citizens rely upon.

  • spob

  • spob

    Note Shakespeare–”has been accused”. Presumably you’d be ok with truthful speech. But are we really going to think a government diktat ok because they were “accused”?
    .
    Ms. Pickert’s closing line was bad. The bottom line is that the First Amendment is the First Amendment. Humana has every right to try to influence public opinion. She denigrates that right.

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    Okay, I reread this letter. Not once does this say “Respond to President Obama.” Instead, it’s all about responding to his words. Analyze his speech and provide textual evidence for your argument (a skill all students need to have). Respond to his questions. That’s it.
    .
    This isn’t about cozying up to our Socialist-Nazi-Communist president. It’s about responding to a speech he gave. He isn’t the leader of a lunatic cult in the boondocks. He’s the President of the United States, and the students heard a speech he gave to them. Of COURSE the school is going to refer to him. He’s the one who gave the speech.
    .
    Would you rather them have said, “Examine Comrade Obama’s speech and point out his lies”?
    .
    As an example of squelching speech and indoctrination, this is weak. Hell, it isn’t even in the same ballpark as the Humana story, which is complicated as I (attempted to) explain down in 20.2.

  • ohiolib

    Spob, this looks to me like exactly what conservatives are all about promoting-service, long-term planning, responsibility, etc etc. Even assuming that your source is a valid one-and I’m inclined to distrust anything wit the name “blog” in the title-why are you so ticked about this? It actually looks to me like you’re more concerned over the democrats encroaching on “republican” turf with this message. And why Obama, you may ask? For two reasons. One, he’s already giving a speech on these same subjects, so it means the teachers don’t have to. The second, and much better, reason is that the words of the president of the united states carry more weight than the woods of a teacher you see 5 days a week. It’s easy to tune out a teacher. It’s a lot harder to tune out the president of the united states. I saw nothing in that article that made me concerned about indoctrination, thought control, or any other paranoid delusions alluded to by the article creators. If anything, I think public leaders should step out of the ivory tower more often to engage fellow citizens.

  • ohiolib

    More importantly, IMO, was there an attempt to deceive? People can get information wrong. People cannot intentionally lie to advance their own agenda

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    That’s why I put the “accused” line in there. I don’t think a government diktat is okay simply because the government says “Trust me.” That’s what I heard from 2001-2008. But the problem is, as you post in 21 below, “Was the mailing true? False?” If Humana was lying, does that fall into the category of “having every right to try to influence public opinion”?
    .
    I’m fully aware of the problematic nature of any entity saying “You’re lying!” and then shutting down that dissenting voice. If Humana is lying, then they could affect an issue that has national implications long before they would pay any price (if ever) for such a lie. If they aren’t lying, then we’re getting into “1984″ territory.
    .
    Ms. Pickert’s closing line may be bad–a journalist should be very careful about throwing the First Amendment around casually–but I’ll say it again: she isn’t clearly denigrating the right to free speech but is instead suggesting that perhaps insurance companies may not be the best source for unbiased info about health care reform. Is that illogical?

  • spob

    My point was whether the stuff is even untrue.

  • spob

    Ohiolib, no conservative I know believes in coercing people to do “service”.

  • ohiolib

    And how, exactly, is this coercion? Bringing up the issue and encouraging people to be active in their communities is a long way from coercion.

  • spob

    Gee, aren’tt you guys the one that find coercion in a valedictorian’s speech that tangentially mentions religion? Forcing students to learn the text of a current political speech–hmmmmmm. Yep, no coercion there.

  • spob

    No Shakespeare–she shouldn’t have even mentioned the First Amendment. It adds nothing to her point, which is that seniors shouldn’t necessarily take what Humana says at face value.
    .
    Of course, given Scherer’s mea culpa on the “You lie” comment and Obama’s backtrack on any number of things, I am not sure that Humana is really that bad of an offender.

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    All good questions. From what the article suggests (and I haven’t seen the Humana flier), the current health care reform suggestions would not cut basic Medicare benefits; they could end up reducing extra benefits in Medicare Advantage plans. This is what makes this all problematic: for Humana to say “this will jeopardize your benefits” has some truth but it isn’t black and white. It sounds like they’re saying “your benefits may all be cut,” which isn’t the case. (Again, I’m basing all this on the article above–haven’t read the Humana letter).
    .
    Regardless, Humana isn’t saying this to help the senior citizens. They’re saying this to do what they can to maintain the status quo. The problem is, how to combat this? The government seems to be playing hardball, but it could so easily tip into muzzling of First Amendment rights.
    .
    Again, how to make people responsible for lying? I went to a high school and a university that both had honor codes with long histories–if you lie, cheat, or steal, you are thrown out of school. Period, the end. That’s not practical in the real world (what, we ship liars to Siberia?) but I wish more attention was paid to reality rather than the spin cycle.

  • spob

    I think we should ship censors to Siberia first.

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    Except that McConnell and Kyl brought up the First Amendment. I think that’s part of her point, too. Look at the title of the post. This is part of the subtext of this article: can you lie or deceive and still claim protection under the First Amendment?

  • spob

    Funny how someone universally derided as a troll, viz., yours truly, can drive a thread. I hope people think that I have contributed to an adult discussion of the issues.

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    Well done. :)

  • spob

    It’s tricky. First of all, what’s a lie? An intentional falsehood? Second of all, what’s deceiving? What are the tests going to be to determine these things and when can the government tell people to shut up? These are issues that are wrapped up in the First Amendment. Plus, the First Amendment gives a lot of breathing room to advocacy and being wrong. So she really doesn’t get the issue at all.
    .
    She responded to Kyl’s statement in a snarky and ill-informed way. There is a First Amendment right to be wrong. Pity that our Columbia J-School grad doesn’t know that.

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    spob, you’re derided as a troll when you fling poo. When you debate like this, you’re a commenter. (And when you or anyone else says, “Oh, I think I’ve pretty much won this thread,” that’s just sad.)
    .
    Thanks for the adult debate–I enjoyed it. We’ll arm-wrestle another time over who drove it… :) Time to hit the hay so I can get up in the morning to go indoctrinate–I mean, teach, TEACH my students!

  • spob

    The other problem, of course, is the motivation of the censor. None of the people upthread could even deal with the viewpoint discrimination point. Can government censors, aligned with a certain political point of view, muzzle those who have the opposite point of view under the guise of protecting seniors?
    .
    Of course, Kate doesn’t seem to understand that issue at all.

  • spob

    I don’t think I fling poo any more than anyone else in here. In fact, I really don’t fling poo. I point out double-standards.

    In any event, I think I did smoke a few of those who called me a troll in this thread, and so I decided to gloat. You’ll forgive me that little fun.
    .
    Let’s see if Kate, the Columbia grad, can debate.

  • ohiolib

    Kate, I hope you post more interesting articles.

  • spob

    This article could be interesting if the Columbia J-School grad had a better grasp in the freedom of speech issues and checked her bias at the door.

  • ohiolib

    Spob, I owe you apology. I seem to recall I lost my temper at one point and insulted you personally. That was wrong of me. And I apologize.

  • pafro

    Most everyone I know doesn’t make political speeches agianst their bosses. I also live in a right to work state where doing so is basically a firing offense, 1st Amendment and all that be damned.

  • spob

    Ohiolib, I didnt even notice it. Sharp debate is cool.

  • pafro

    Same thing. I think Belloti is “badly decided” law, as I believe it is fruit of the poisoned tree that decided corporations have 1st and 2nd and 14th Amendment rights.

  • spob

    Ah, pafro, perhaps you’ve never heard of the ample caselaw which protects government employee’s right to speak on political matters . . . .
    .
    pwned.

  • spob

    Well, pafro, it is law. And should be followed. Saying that I am wrong when I can cite law is, ummmm, to pick a word, trollish, n’est-ce pas?

  • Kate Pickert

    AARP has been accused before of having a conflict of interest when it comes to health care reform. It is an advocacy group that represents seniors, but also a health insurance broker – although these two operations are broken into different subsidiaries within AARP. I’ve written a little about this in the past here: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1919762,00.html

    On the First Amendment – as a journalist, of course I care a great deal about it. But there are some things to keep in mind here. First, the First Amendment rights of corporations have historically been more limited than the First Amendment rights of individuals. In fact, the Supreme Court is currently examining a case on how broad free speech rights should be for corporations. See here for more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/04/AR2009090402497.html

    Second, as many of you point out, there are political forces at work here that mean this matter is not just about free speech, nor is it just about protecting seniors. The same is true for the report put out by the GOP accusing AARP of getting “kickbacks” from health care reform.

    And no, I don’t find watching the Finance Committee markup completely mind numbing. Then again, it’s only Day 2.

  • spob

    Kate, your knowledge of First Amendment rights is pretty superficial. Yeah, corporations have less First Amendment rights than do individuals, but, and here’s the big but, viewpoint discrimination is a big honking no-no. And it’s hard to get around that issue here. Moreover, there’s the whole issue of prior restraint, another big time no-no. And that the Supreme Court is considering what free speech rights corporations have doesn’t mean that current caselaw doesn’t need to be followed. Corporations have a pretty unfettered right to comment on political issues (absent campaigns).
    .
    I’m sure, Kate, that the Obama campaign’s intimidation of TV and radio stations running anti-Obama ads was kosher. Funny how the urge to censor just keeps popping up.

  • stuartzechman

    I could be wrong about this, and I’m not done thinking about it, but:

    I believe that spob is right.
    .
    The government should fire Humana if they object to their communications, but they can’t simply order them to stop speaking.
    .
    If the government believes that Humana is using their contracted position to spread lies, then that contract should not be renewed, and misinformation should be corrected while that contract still exists.
    .
    Basically, the government shouldn’t be telling its contractor Humana to stop speaking, it should be ordering them to distribute mailings that say what it wants Humana to say, unless Humana objects, at which point the termination should take place.

  • spob

    Not sure that they could fire Humana either. There is the viewpoint discrimination issue.

  • spob

    Oh, and another thing, if the First Amendment were really that important to you, perhaps, just perhaps, you wouldn’t uncritically pass along the staffer’s comment that the contract allowed the government to do this.
    .
    The other hard question to ask would be to get at the viewpoint discrimination issue. Would HHS have done this for any communication? Probably not.

  • spob

    Oh, and one more thing, one’s First Amendment rights don’t usually turn on some government official determining whether something is “wrong”. That’s what Kyl was getting at. Too bad your snark obscured that issue.

  • ohiolib

    I think stuart means to simply not renew any contracts with Humana or give them any more gov’t funds unless they agree to make changes. Even if they can’t be outright fired (which I have no idea about) the gov’t can refuse to deal with them. Not technically the same thing, but close enough.

  • spob

    I don’t think that’s doable either. Generally speaking, the government cannot condition the ability to enter into contracts with it on political speech or lack thereof.

  • spob

    Oh, and guys, let’s not forget that this is pending legislation that is being commented on. Therefore, the “government” is not being criticized or anything like that. What business do government employees have in trying to silence the views of those who disagree with proposed legislation.
    .
    Pity that the person, supposedly so concerned with the First Amendment, doesn’t ask questions about the propriety of government officials inserting themselves into a political debate by using the power of the government.
    .
    Once again–a superficial grasp of the issues. But hey, corps have less free speech rights than individuals. Sorry, Kate, sloganeering is not a substiture for analysis.

  • stuartzechman

    I’m saying that the government can mandate that Humana distribute its version of the story, complete with “official” stamps of authority, whatever.
    .
    If Humana refuses to distribute the governments’ information mailers that directly contradict their own, the contract relationship can probably safely be terminated.

  • ohiolib

    We may have to see how this plays out. Depending on far Humana goes, they may well cross a line regarding partisan use of funds, or activism on the taxpayer dime. I don’t know what kinds of regulations are in those areas, but i imagine there are some. It’s also possible that bad publicity will curb the worst of the claims (though I wouldn’t put money on that). If anyone has information on restrictions involved in gov’t contracts, it might be interesting to dig through them and see which, if any, relate to situations like this.

  • spob

    SZ, there’s caselaw on enforced speech too. Perhaps you ought to bone up on that before posting. And what business does the government have in mandating a version about pending legislation???

  • spob

    Once they get paid for a service, the money is Humana’s, not the taxpayers’.

  • ohiolib

    Technically true. I should have said that there may be restrictions on companies that accept government contracts.

  • spob

    Not ones that turn on a government official determining which speech is kosher and which speech is not . . . .

  • spob

    Looks like the HIPPA typo got fixed.

  • spob
  • stuartzechman

    Why don’t you provide quotes of the relevant caselaw, spob, since I’m sure that you are correct, and there is quite a bit from which to predict a court’s opinion?
    .
    What business does the government have?
    .
    The same business that Humana has:

    “Seniors have a right to know how the current reform proposals will affect the coverage they currently like and rely on,” AHIP spokesman Robert Zirkelbach said.

    Surely Humana doesn’t have the right to refuse its contract obligations to distribute information to Medicare Advantage enrollees with which the government will satisfy seniors’ “right to know how the current reform proposals will affect the coverage they currently like and rely on”, right spob?
    .
    Demonstrate using relevant case law how a court would likely find for Humana in the case that it could be proven that they had failed to comply, please.

  • tc125231

    You seem to imply that the government does not have the same recourse under business law available to every corporation.

    1. Sever the offending subcontractor’s particiapation as an agent in the company’s program
    2. Withhold payment for non-compliance with contract terms
    3. Let the other party sue if they think they are wronged.

    Since is a major component of market discipline (recourse by unhappy purchasers of services), this is patently absurd. No corporation would agree to the terms you want to impose upon the government.

    But of course, you really don’t care about that, do you? You are just a pathetic troll spewing vile in the hope of preventing coherent discussion.

    Your relatives must be proud.

  • spob

    sz, not to be insulting, but it is apparent that you have so little grasp of the relevant legal principles that you cannot even formulate the issues very well.

    First of all, we have no way of knowing whether the contract requires Humana to comment on pending legislation. It likely does not. And even if it did, it’s unlikely that the government could enlist Humana to be a cheerleader for the proposals. “There is necessarily, and within suitably defined areas, a [First Amendment] freedom not to speak publicly, one which serves the same ultimate end as freedom of speech in its affirmative aspect.” Harper & Row, Publishers, Inc. v. Nation Enterprises, 471 U.S. 539, 559 (1985).
    .
    Second of all, the government itself doesn’t really have a lot of business cheerleading for a particular proposal that has not been enacted.

    Third of all, with respect to Humana’s right to comment on the proposed legislation, take a look at this:

    “There is practically universal agreement that a major purpose of [the First] Amendment was to protect the free discussion of governmental affairs. If the speakers here were not corporations, no one would suggest that the State could silence their proposed speech. It is the type of speech indispensable to decisionmaking in a democracy, and this is no less true because the speech comes from a corporation rather than an individual. The inherent worth of the speech in terms of its capacity for informing the public does not depend upon the identity of its source, whether corporation, association, union, or individual.” Bellotti.

  • spob

    You know, speaking of the freedom of speech, there is this problem:

    “The federal election campaign laws, which are already (as today’s opinions show) so voluminous, so detailed, so complex, that no ordinary citizen dare run for office, or even contribute a significant sum, without hiring an expert advisor in the field, can be expected to grow more voluminous, more detailed, and more complex in the years to come–and always, always, with the objective of reducing the excessive amount of speech.”
    .
    How did we get here? Does the First Amendment really permit laws which impose such burdens on people wanting to run for office?

  • stuartzechman

    Since you’ve supplied a case, I’ll get an opinion.
    .
    Thanks spob.

  • stuartzechman

    LOL That’s the weakest cite of case law I’ve seen yet!
    .

    Harper & Row v. Nation Enterprises, 471 U.S. 539 (1985)[1], was a United States Supreme Court decision that determined that fair use is not a defense to the appropriation of work by a famous political figure simply because of the public interest in learning of that political figure’s account of an historic event.

    .
    Come on, spob.
    .
    Don’t preemptively appeal to authority (“it is apparent that you have so little grasp of the relevant legal principles”) and then cite a case having nothing to do with nor having decision that could in the slightest manner inform a subsequent court on this theoretical case.
    .
    Go ahead and cite Marbury vs Madison while you’re at it.
    .
    I wouldn’t know the difference, right?
    .
    That’s not debating in good faith, spob, it’s arguing to win, hoping that the truth of your position is obscured.
    .
    If you can’t cite case law that might convince a court that protection from sanction against Humana in case in which it refused to issue information the government deemed necessary to enrollees, then just be honest and say so, or say that you’ll have to do more research, or ask someone.
    .
    Be honest.

  • spob

    Give me a friggin’ break. The case says what it says, and was cited for that very proposition in one of the forced subsidies cases. The bottom line is that there is clear case law that states that the First Amendment forbids forced speech. Christ, you can go back to the Pledge of Allegiance case in the ’40s. I’m not going to go and dig out caselaw on issues that I know off the top of my f’in head. The bottom line is that the government cannot force Humana to cheerlead for the proposed bill. Why in the world you think it appropriate for the government to force that in the first place is beyond me. Do we typically commandeer private actors to cheerlead proposed legislation?

  • spob

    tc, usually, I would be content to let your ignorance simply stand on its own. But you’re such an arrogant twit, I figure I’ll rub your nose in it.
    .
    First of all, moron, the government is not like all actors in the marketplace. A private party can generally hire and fire for any reason with limited exceptions, one of which is not the politics of the employee. With limited exceptions, it’s unconstitutional for the government to hire/fire based on the political speech of the employees. This extends to the political speech of subcontractors. Or do you live in a world where the government gets to engage in discrimination based on the political speech or positions of the subcontractor?
    .
    Second of all, moron, the proposed change is qualitatively different in the government context. The government itself has zero interest in the passage or non-passge of any proposed change in the law. So this is not like the subcontractor disparaging its counterparty in a contract. (God, how dumb are you?)
    .
    Third of all, moron, you don’t even know (a) if Humana broke any enforceable provision of any contract and (b) what remedies there are for the breach.

  • spob

    Here’s another question–I have to admit, I am not a HIPAA lawyer–but how in the world would HIPAA even cover this communication?

  • plukasiak

    stuart, doesn’t the government have the right to notify a contractor to cease and desist activities that are in violation of its contract under prior to, or in lieu of, contract termination?
    _
    For istance, can the government order KBR to cease and desist the torture and abuse of people whom they detain while doing “security” work for the government?

  • kbanginmotown

    Trollitas ergas sum.

  • grape_crush

    Try reading the entire passage again. Slowly.
    .
    HIPAA is given as an example of a Federal law that restricts communication between a health care consumer (like a senior citizen) and a ‘covered entity’ (like an insurance company), not the law that covers this situation.
    .
    That you call yourself a lawyer and I have to explain this to you is incredible.

  • bobell

    On the political-speech rights of government employees, check out the Hatch Act, http://www.osc.gov/ha_fed.htm

    As to the use of addresses obtained by a federal contractor through performance of the contract, consider how many internet sites promise potential subscribers that their personal information will not be sold to others. Such contractual agreements are enforceable; a company that violates such an agreement is liable for the consequences. There’s no reason why a contractor cannot agree with another large business that customer information supplied it by that large business will not be used in certain ways. Such an agreement is enforceable. And since the government, when it contracts, is in many ways just another contracting party, a government contractor can agree to limitations on use, and those limitations will be legally binding.

    Simply throwing around the phrase “political speech” with no consideration for the characteristics of what it purports to describe doesn’t advance the argument one micron.

  • spob

    Oh yeah, the Hatch Act is dispositive . . . . genius, this is prior restraint and an obvious viewpoint discrimination. You clown yourself with that. Federal employees can comment on issues.
    .
    Additionally, you don’t even know what the contract provides and whether such a thing is enforceable by the government.
    .
    And since “political speech” has the most protection under the First Amendment (or at least putatively so), it’s not sloganeering to state that this is poltical speech.
    .
    A government official silenced someone’s speech on a pressing issue. And you guys are cool with that. As the fat man once said, “Dude, where’s my country?”

  • spob

    Hmm. Let’s look at exactly what the quote says:
    .
    ” . . . .and that federal laws, including HIPAA, restrict communications between enrollees and insurers.”
    .
    Doesn’t say example. Moreover, the implication is that there is some “law” which prohibits this. Pray tell that Baucus could provide a cite. Let’s see if Pickert, who claims to be so interested in the First Amendment could ask that question.

  • textee

    Kate Pickert asserts: “insurance companies – with a huge financial stake in the outcome – are not the sources that older Americans should be relying on for clarity.”

    The absolute last “sources that older Americans [or any sane being] should be relying on for clarity” are Time magazine, Newsweek, ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, CNN, MSDNC, NPR, the execrable Associated (with terrorists) Press, al McClatchy, al Reuters, the New York Times-Democrat, the Washington Post-Democrat, the Washington bureau of the Wall Street Journal, ESPN, Sports Illustrated, et al.

  • spob

    you know, twit, when you jump in, you gotta make sure the person whom you join is not an idiot . . . .

  • stuartzechman

    I’m going to ask New York licensed attorney and NYU law alumna Lovely Bride to comment here with her professional opinion, but I’m not sure she’ll have the time to do so.
    .
    I spoke with her about it this morning, but she’s awful busy. Let’s see if I can get some of that $400/hour time pro bono from her…

  • spob

    or sz, you could join me in pressing Ms. Pickert to ask HHS or Baucus where they get the statutory authority to order someone to cease speaking on a political matter.

  • stuartzechman

    I agree, this should be done, but not to the exclusion of trying to solve the issue ourselves.

  • http://freeresponsible.wordpress.com freeresponsible

    Sadly these comments are just another shouting match between the so called “left” and “right” with neither side representing the vast majority of people that just want a government that works.Then again what does a working goverment comprise of ?One that secures “Life, health, Liberty, or Possessions” as defined by Locke is what we’re promised in the Constitution and that’s all any of us has any right to expect.It’s government’s failure to secure these things no matter which party was in control and it’s useless and needless expansion of it’s own authority,again irregardles of whose running the show, that have led us here.Everyone speaks but no one has time to listen.
    Those who believe Obama is the AntiChrist will continue to do so and those that believe he is a Saviour will continue to do so.The rest of us left will just have to hope that when all the yelling is over someone will do what needs to be done.

  • spob

    When the government silences political speech, it ought to be 100% sure of itself.
    .
    I have dashed off an email to Kathleen Sebelius on the point.

  • arartteacher

    Hello all I’m new to this site and I have enjoyed your discussion on this issue. I would like to comment not on the article but on the issue of health reform it self. It seems to me that a lot of people who have money and insurance or companies who profit from the health industries are completely against health reform at all.

    Spob I was just thinking would you still believe that what humanna was doing is ok if the things they said were wrong and had a negative impact on the elderly people of our country. I know you believe it to be legal but do you think its right

  • arartteacher

    free i think you said that very well and i agree

  • spob

    How do you define “negative impact”? And how do you define “wrong”?

  • arartteacher

    When there are more and more people going to hit Medicare (babe boomers) and reform doesn’t get passed and the program goes broke, or the country does. negative impact
    Wrong I define wrong as protecting your profits instead of the elderly people.

  • spob

    The trouble with your analysis is that you just don’t know. Humana is simply taking a political position that may or may not be the right one. Yapping about “profits over people” isn’t all that productive.

  • wearetheroses

    So now, under Obama, PRIVATE companies can be told/forced by the government to stop communicating with their customers if the government doesn’t like what you’re saying? Be afraid people, be very afraid of what’s happening to our United States.

  • arartteacher

    So you think that way down deep inside Humana’s problem with health reform is political come on now you have got to know better than that. Big companies only seem to have a problem with the politics when it hurts there bottom line

  • spob

    Usually we don’t evaluate motives when determining whether something is political speech or not . . . .

  • arartteacher

    When do we evaluate their motives?

  • spob

    Usually not in the context of the government ordering someone to be quiet.

  • arartteacher

    Ok you have told me when we dont evaluate their motives. Do you think they did what they did purely based on the politics?

  • arartteacher

    No of course you dont, no one does. they did what they did to protect their profits. And sure they have the right to say what they want ,to a extent. So you can bury this in legal crud but lets be real for one moment their political speech is motivated by their fear of a shrinking bottom line

  • spob

    “So you can bury this in legal crud but lets be real for one moment their political speech is motivated by their fear of a shrinking bottom line[.]”
    .
    The First Amendment is legal crud? Ok. Second of all, people are going to speak according to their interests, often financial. There’s nothing wrong with that, nor does a financial interest change political speech to non-political speech.

  • arartteacher

    I guarantee when the first amendment was written they weren’t thinking of some huge company hiding behind it to further their agenda buy scaring old people into believing what they want them to believe. So yes when the First Amendment is used like that crud!
    I didn’t say that their political speech wasn’t in fact political speech I said that it was motivated purely by fear of lost profit. And we all know that what motivated this.
    And thank you for correcting my error I hope it made you feel better. In the future I will try to remember my punctuation.

  • http://freeresponsible.wordpress.com freeresponsible

    Again more of the same.”I’m right no I’m right” shrilling that ignores the most basic question of all.Why is the Gov. paying a private company to provide health insurance at all? Is it the Gov. purpose or perogative to do this? Under the ideas in the Constitution,which both sides claim to hold in highest regard,the Gov.only has to make it possible for it’s citizens to have health insurance. Not provide it for them or on the other hand require it of them.I agree that the insurance industry needs reform, as it is now it is simply not possible for many to get insurance even when they can afford it. However that does not and should not be taken as an argument for Gov health.Having said that, the belief that poking around at the edges with tort reform and a so called insurance exchange,won’t get it done either.Stripping the insurance industry of it’s exemption from the anti-monopoly laws that allo one company to control 95% of the market in a state and restrict people’s access to out of state insurers would go a long way to relieving the ridiculous growth of health care costs and make it affordable for more people to carry health insurance.

  • arartteacher

    Well spob thanks for the conversation I hope I didn’t bore you too much with my simple views. Its time for me to head home have a good evening.

  • smpcdt09

    The insurance company may have violated health privacy laws when it used enrollees’ names and addresses to send the letters. Patient names and addresses are protected health information under the HIPAA Privacy Rule, which is enforced by the HHS Office of Civil Rights (OCR), not CMS. However, we have yet to hear a reaction from OCR or HHS in this matter. After years of lax enforcement of the Privacy Rule the public has a right to expect that their personal data is better protected. CDT wrote an article that calls on OCR (and HHS) to aggressively enforce HIPAA rules and make clear that patients’ personal data cannot be used to achieve a company’s political goals. That article can be found here: http://blog.cdt.org/2009/09/29/letters-to-medicare-enrollees-pose-potential-hipaa-violation/

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